Vampires, Wyrm or Weaver
CJ
Ok, this is to start a discussion. I know the "official" white wolf take is
the Kindred/Vamps are Wyrm creatures. BUT, in my opinioin, they would be
Weaver more so.
1) They are physically in "stasis" as it were. The weaver has solidified its
web on them.
2) They expand the human population and area. They help the weaver solidify
its web over Gaia. They encourage humans civilization.
3) They in general don't like pollution, unless it profits them directly
finacially. But, almost (not the almost) every vamp is antipollution. Their
cattle is healthier. And some pollution causes aggrivated damage to Vamps.
If they really were of the wyrm, I would think it didn't then.
4) Wyld things affect them. Like the sun, light. And fire. These are agents
of the Wyld and change, fire obvious. But sun also due to what it is, a mass
of changing molecules and reaction. Although, due to its "stability" it could
be argued its a weaver thing and not a wyld thing.
Mind you, this is a bit of stretch on some of the reason, but I do view the
Vamp as Weaver more. At least, the Cammies. The Set would definitely be Wyrm
creatures in a sense. Anyway, comments?
--
Blessed Be
CJ
CJ_LA on I.R.C. (Insomniacs Revolutionary Coalition)
http://www2.linknet.net/cyrus
cy...@linknet.net
"Everything is possible, including the impossible."
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sv...@ll.mit.edu
CJ wrote:
> Ok, this is to start a discussion. I know the "official" white wolf
> take is the Kindred/Vamps are Wyrm creatures.
That's not entirely true.
It would be more appropriate to say that the _Beast_ (the force which
slowly-but-surely erodes vampires' humanity) is of the Wyrm... or, at
least, of a sufficiently similar corruptive intent that it registers as
a 'stink' to the Defenders of Gaia and other creatures capable of
sensing corruption. (Chris Doherty has posted a good treatment of this
question on this newsgroup before -- search DejaNews using 'vampire
humanity sense wyrm doherty.')
Examples:
Sense Wyrm detects Corruption greater than or equal to 7, if you use
that trait in your games (Corruption is detailed in _Outcasts_).
Sense Wyrm detects a vampire with Humanity 6 or less.
Vampires who have achieved Golconda never stink of the Wyrm, regardless
of Age/Humanity/Generation.
I believe Gangrel never stink of the Wyrm, regardless of Age/Humanity/
Generation, unless they have befouled their souls with truly evil deeds.
(But I think there's an exception in there -- check _Clanbook Gangrel_.)
Of course, if I were playing your run-of-the-mill non-Theurge Garou,
I'd assume _any_ creature that subsisted on the blood of living
creatures was irrevocably Wyrm-tainted, regardless of its true nature.
-- S. Skoog
Aaron Einhorn
In article <11f7cd$a1323.1ac@NEWS>, cy...@linknet.net wrote:
> Ok, this is to start a discussion. I know the "official" white wolf take is
> the Kindred/Vamps are Wyrm creatures. BUT, in my opinioin, they would be
> Weaver more so.
> <SNIP His examples>
> Mind you, this is a bit of stretch on some of the reason, but I do view the
> Vamp as Weaver more. At least, the Cammies. The Set would definitely
be Wyrm
> creatures in a sense. Anyway, comments?
I tend to agree with you. In the LARP I'm playing in (in which there
are a few Garou in a Kindred domnated city) the discussion came up, and my
CoG Philodox self replied with many of your same points. The way I look at
it is vampires are of the Weaver, and like much that is of the Weaver,
they are easily corrupted by the Wyrm.
--
Love or don't,
-Desire
Nyarlathotep
Read my post for the Eastern Kindred thread. I explain it all to the
best of my logical reasoning capabilities. It is pretty cut-and-dry as
Vamps are both.
As to blood-subsistence types being of the Wyrm? There are way too many
natural, Wyld-type, animals that do this for a living. A non-theurge Garou
would know this.
--
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BluCyclone
every game fits into one of the mage essences
vampire - pattern
werewolf - primodial
mage - infinite
wraith - questing
changling - dynamic
so i say vamps are quite pattern/weaver though undoubtedly infused with
quite more than average wyrm taint
Richard Chilton
CJ <cy...@linknet.net> wrote in article <11f7cd$a1323.1ac@NEWS>...
> Ok, this is to start a discussion. I know the "official" white wolf take
is
> the Kindred/Vamps are Wyrm creatures. BUT, in my opinioin, they would be
> Weaver more so.
A short answer is they're neither.
The Long one?
Basically Vampires exist outside the Garou cosmostology. You might as well
ask it a OoH Mage is Weaver (because their magick is so structured) or Wyld
(because they aren't with the Technocrats). The Garou Wyrm / Weaver / Wyld
view doesn't take everything in the WoD into account. Is an evil Fae of
the Wyrm or are Garou a lost tribe of Fae? Are Wraiths of the Wyrm? After
all they don't go to paradise / reincarnate / whatever that the Garou see
is natural. So since they aren't natural, aren't of the Wyld, have no real
connection with the Weaver, all wraiths must be of the Wyrm, right?
The Garou paradigm (world view / reality as they see it) doesn't handle the
other supernaturals well. Sure you can lump the technocrats with the
weaver, but is that CC witch burner with true faith (yes, very rare)
serving a version of Gaia or the wyrm? You can't really label the majority
of the non garou WoD as serving any of the triad.
This doesn't mean they don't try to label everything according to their
beliefs. Vampires, undead blood suckers perverting the natural course of
death (see wraith above)? They must be of the Wyrm. Their entire natural
must be bent and twisted to serve their foul master. Um, there's a vampire
running a house for battered women? Must be some kind of a Wyrm plot.
This vampiric social worker doesn't register when we Sense Wyrm? She must
have some power to hide her evil. Like the wolves they breed with most
garou like their world to be black (evil scum that need to be distroyed to
save mother earth) and white (us heros who. while occasionally maybe
mistaken (war of rage, Imperium, slaughter of the Bunyip, etc), are on the
side of right thus good guys).
So where does the Kindred beast come from? Inside, that same as the garou.
The embrace hightens your instincts to fight (rage frenzy), flee
(rotscheck), and survive (feeding frenzy).
So if they aren't of the Wyrm why do some of them register to Sense Wyrm?
Well, in the werewolf cosmostology most, if not all, evil is caused by
banes attaching themselves to people. Even if the banes don't cause it
they are attracted to evil and those who preform evil deeds. Supernatural
entities probably prove a better feeding ground than normal mortals. A
vampire who has a humanity of six or less has attracted enough tiny banes
around her that a garou can Sense them.
Richard
NeonJesus
Richard Chilton wrote:
>
> CJ <cy...@linknet.net> wrote in article <11f7cd$a1323.1ac@NEWS>...
> > Ok, this is to start a discussion. I know the "official" white wolf take
> is
> > the Kindred/Vamps are Wyrm creatures. BUT, in my opinioin, they would be
>
> > Weaver more so.
Before I disagree with the comments below this, I'll give my opinions on
the ones above. Although vamps do get some Weaver/Wyrm characteristics
just from becoming a vampire, the real determining factor is the
individual's thoughts/actions. If a vamp was Mother Teresa in her
previous life, she isn't going to be very evil/Wyrmtainted; a normal guy
who gets Embraced and thinks this is his ticket to do any nasty thing he
wants will have high Wyrmtaint. Same with Weaver: A corporate dude
embraced by a Gangrel (for some strange reason) will still be mostly
Weaverish, and a Garou Kinfolk embraced by Lasombra would stay Wyld (tho
she might have trouble convincing her buddies she still wants to help
them).
>
> A short answer is they're neither.
>
> The Long one?
>
> Basically Vampires exist outside the Garou cosmostology. You might as well
> ask it a OoH Mage is Weaver (because their magick is so structured) or Wyld
> (because they aren't with the Technocrats). The Garou Wyrm / Weaver / Wyld
> view doesn't take everything in the WoD into account. Is an evil Fae of
> the Wyrm or are Garou a lost tribe of Fae?
This is a flawed argument. People do this all the time; they judge each
other based on their moral beliefs. If my definition of evil is murder,
then in my worldview, if you murder, you are evil. It's all relative to
the viewpoint you're looking through: A NWO Agent in White will see
nothing wrong with manipulation for "the greater good", while your
average Get of Fenris will get pissed and look for a neck to sever.
You are right, though: If you look from a Vampire perspective (which you
obviously are) then the Garou's beliefs about you might be wrong.
>Are Wraiths of the Wyrm? After
> all they don't go to paradise / reincarnate / whatever that the Garou see
> is natural.
I don't really think Garou see Wraiths as evil. Though they don't
reincarnate, if indeed Garou see reincarnation as natural for humans,
I'd assume Theurges see them as mysteries best studied or avoided,
Ahrouns see them as Wyrm spirits or just completely incomprehensible
(think Malkavian).
So since they aren't natural, aren't of the Wyld, have no real
> connection with the Weaver, all wraiths must be of the Wyrm, right?
Silly. There are many things the Garou don't understand, and they know
it.
> The Garou paradigm (world view / reality as they see it) doesn't handle the
> other supernaturals well. Sure you can lump the technocrats with the
> weaver, but is that CC witch burner with true faith (yes, very rare)
> serving a version of Gaia or the wyrm?
Most things in the world can't be lumped into one category. Garou who
take the time to study their vampire "victims" might gain more empathy
than their friends would find proper. (my experience :) )
>You can't really label the majority
> of the non garou WoD as serving any of the triad.
> This doesn't mean they don't try to label everything according to their
> beliefs. Vampires, undead blood suckers perverting the natural course of
> death (see wraith above)? They must be of the Wyrm. Their entire natural
> must be bent and twisted to serve their foul master. Um, there's a vampire
> running a house for battered women? Must be some kind of a Wyrm plot.
There are ignorant Garou and intelligent Garou, just as there are
ignorant humans and intelligent humans. Same with everything: ignorant
vampires might label Bone Gnawers twisted (after all, they're Garou)
even though they have so much in common, but intelligent Kindred would
examine and find many similarities.
> This vampiric social worker doesn't register when we Sense Wyrm? She must
> have some power to hide her evil. Like the wolves they breed with most
> garou like their world to be black (evil scum that need to be distroyed to
> save mother earth) and white (us heros who. while occasionally maybe
> mistaken (war of rage, Imperium, slaughter of the Bunyip, etc), are on the
> side of right thus good guys).
Come now. You understand the wolves' complex social interaction and the
hunt as "black and white"? I'm annoyed by your presumption, human.
> So where does the Kindred beast come from? Inside, that same as the garou.
> The embrace hightens your instincts to fight (rage frenzy), flee
> (rotscheck), and survive (feeding frenzy).
The Beast is a curse of the Wyrm. The vamps have it passed through
their bloodlines as do the Garou. Some succumb to it more than others;
Garou who do are called psychotic, not evil.
> So if they aren't of the Wyrm why do some of them register to Sense Wyrm?
> Well, in the werewolf cosmostology most, if not all, evil is caused by
Definitely nowhere near all. As written in the Book of Wyrm: Banes
almost never cause evil in saints, they increase evil already present in
nasty people.
> banes attaching themselves to people. Even if the banes don't cause it
> they are attracted to evil and those who preform evil deeds. Supernatural
> entities probably prove a better feeding ground than normal mortals. A
> vampire who has a humanity of six or less has attracted enough tiny banes
> around her that a garou can Sense them.
Ok, this might be reasonable. There is evil in the world besides Banes,
though, and Gaia's gifts do not just affect spirits - they search out
the Wyrm in whatever form it may take.
>
> Richard
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ell...@nccn.net
I think you are being obvious with the Triad argument; there are many
levels of being, and therefore, the Triad will affect you on many
levels. Physically, Vampire are very much of the Wyrm and Weaver, but
mentally and emotionally, this can differ widely. I should probably make
some system up for this, actually. Could be interesting...
Oh, and while we're on the subject, I'd like to differentiate
Wyrm-ridden and evil. I don't find the Wyrm to be evil at all. If God
can get away with killing indiscriminatley, why cant the Wyrm? He is
the ultimate keeper of balance, but there could be a number of reasons
why the sick, demented, and just plain nasty register on Sense Wyrm...
Maybe the Wyrm, to offset the ENORMOUS amount of doing/undoing wrought
by the Weaver and Wyld, has overcompensated/overconcentrated its
energies. It collapses the spiritual, moral, ethical, etc. whithin us.
Banes attack those who are evil because they are the easiest to degrade;
after all, they're already so close to the edge.
More thoughts later...
Cacophony Scream-of-Carrier, Jaggling of Whippoorwill, servant of
Cockroach, chaos on the web!
"Decrypt THIS you mindless drones!"
-Mysteriously appeared on a Pentex computer network before the wholre
thing just sorta went belly up...
Jakob M. Marberger
>>You can't really label the majority
>> of the non garou WoD as serving any of the triad.
>> This doesn't mean they don't try to label everything according to their
>> beliefs. Vampires, undead blood suckers perverting the natural course of
>> death (see wraith above)? They must be of the Wyrm. Their entire natural
>> must be bent and twisted to serve their foul master. Um, there's a vampire
>> running a house for battered women? Must be some kind of a Wyrm plot.
>
>There are ignorant Garou and intelligent Garou, just as there are
>ignorant humans and intelligent humans. Same with everything: ignorant
>vampires might label Bone Gnawers twisted (after all, they're Garou)
>even though they have so much in common, but intelligent Kindred would
>examine and find many similarities.
>
garou it愀 real of course). but what exists in WoD but outside garou society
(not like black spirals though, they exist inside of it) is not "of wyrm", "of
the weaver" or "of wyld" as such, but a example for whats happening. for garou
vampires are, individually, not "of wyrm" i think, but their existance is
because of the progression of wyrm. some will conclude that they therefor are
agents of wyrm and have to be disposed of. others will see them as a symptom
of an illness but are not that important by themselves.
others of course will say it depends on the personality of the individual,
since hardly anyone becomes of the kindred by his/her own will (never mind the
others :) )and therefore cant be held responsible for that but only for
his/her actions afterward.
those opinions of course are heavily influenced by tribe and auspice.
but it would seem to me that this expanation about covers all possibilities
and points of view that exist within the game-universe.
i also believe that the same is moreless true for the other games: no
charakter in the game is able to look beyond the bounds of his own ability of
perception, which in turn make up his understanding of the world he lives in
anyway. so anything a charakter happens to run across wont be exactly this or
that in the way of good and bad: ever will the imago be based on what the
charakter knew so far, percieves in this moment and mirror the decision the
charakter makes at this moment.
example: vampire or not, one of the kindred found defending a fallen
packmember at danger of life against obviously wyrm tainted opposition (black
spirals good, since they are "clearly of the wyrm" for any garou) wont be
killed just because of what he is, except maybe by a get-of-fenris pack. if he
gives a reason (...or excuse) yes, of course. but not until then.
its more likely that the charakters will rethink their opinions on vampires in
the first case (paranoia aside).
its like "hey, the dude kept my buddy alive" -which the garou has seen-
against "they are bad" -which he has been told by others.
sure. it is not that easy, but the reaction will be based only on what the
charakter experienced and believes and NOT on what the player "knows".
one should be really careful about this, for even if you KNOW that, you
sometimes let your charakter act in a way that mirrors your own "prejudices"
against people in the game universe.
one should think that over thoroughly before one acts, because the believes of
a charakter steer his actions and are the drive behind his life.
and its easy to let him act in a way one never intended him to, just because
one didnt think clearly enough.
game atmosphere and fun gets lost that way in the long run without any good
reason.
j.
______________________________________________________________________________
jakob m.marberger aka WolfHeart
university of innsbruck
tirol, austria, europe
Mike Bruner
Jakob M. Marberger wrote:
>
>
> >>You can't really label the majority
> >> of the non garou WoD as serving any of the triad.
> >> This doesn't mean they don't try to label everything according to their
> >> beliefs. Vampires, undead blood suckers perverting the natural course of
> >> death (see wraith above)? They must be of the Wyrm. Their entire natural
> >> must be bent and twisted to serve their foul master. Um, there's a vampire
> >> running a house for battered women? Must be some kind of a Wyrm plot.
> >
> >There are ignorant Garou and intelligent Garou, just as there are
> >ignorant humans and intelligent humans. Same with everything: ignorant
> >vampires might label Bone Gnawers twisted (after all, they're Garou)
> >even though they have so much in common, but intelligent Kindred would
> >examine and find many similarities.
> >
> garou it愀 real of course). but what exists in WoD but outside garou society
> (not like black spirals though, they exist inside of it) is not "of wyrm", "of
> the weaver" or "of wyld" as such, but a example for whats happening. for garou
Well, the Garou themselves think they are "of Gaia" as opposed to being
of any one of the Triat, so I think they can see things as not having to
be of any of the Triat. In a lot of ways I got the impression having all
things being of Gaia as opposed to aligned with just one of the Triat
would be their prefered state of affairs. It's just that they see most
of the other intelligences besides spirits (there are "natural" spirits
as opposed to Wyld/Weaver/Wyrm spirits) as having some agenda consistant
with only one member of the Triat; humans are considered of the Weaver
thanks to their reliance on cities and technology (or of the Wyrm by the
more racist lupus), faeries of the Wyld due to their innate chaotic
nature, etc. The other Bete probably would be considered "of Gaia" as
well (except for those that have allied themselves with one Triatic
aspect before like the Anansi) if the Garou were seeing them without the
War of Rage filtering their perception.
> vampires are, individually, not "of wyrm" i think, but their existance is
> because of the progression of wyrm. some will conclude that they therefor are
> agents of wyrm and have to be disposed of. others will see them as a symptom
> of an illness but are not that important by themselves.
> others of course will say it depends on the personality of the individual,
> since hardly anyone becomes of the kindred by his/her own will (never <snip>
> one should think that over thoroughly before one acts, because the believes of
> a charakter steer his actions and are the drive behind his life.
> and its easy to let him act in a way one never intended him to, just because
> one didnt think clearly enough.
> game atmosphere and fun gets lost that way in the long run without any good
> reason.
Yeah, I thought a lot of the theme to White Wolf games involved having
characters look beyond the limited perceptions of their elders and start
doing things right for a change. I remember one essay in either the
Werewolf Player's or Storyteller's Guide I believe that noted for Garou
the road to true heroism in some ways often involved ignoring parts of
the Litany. Let's face it, the senior members of each "good" group have
screwed up the cause royally; you keep sticking to their views without
thinking about them and you're doomed to repeat the same mistakes.
--
Mike Bruner
mbr...@knox.edu
"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
"But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and
Juliet is AAAHHHHHHH THE SUN!!!!!" *FOOM!*
-- Toreador Theatre
Z
Mike Bruner <mbr...@knox.edu> wrote:
>Well, the Garou themselves think they are "of Gaia" as opposed to being
>of any one of the Triat
<snip>
This triggered an interesitng idea. The Garou do claim to be of Gaia,
and they have been called Gaia's immune system. So perhaps they fight
the Wyrm because the Wyrm's power of corruption holds much danger to
Gaia.
Could there be alternate worlds, or parts in the past and/or fututure
where one of the other aspects becomes a danger?
Weaver: Probably a future world, kind of like Star Trek perhaps (or
could be our world with less corruption), the world is united, science
is supreme, there are no third world nations, everyone is considered
equal, no poverty or excessive wealth.
The Garou battle the pervasive Weaver in its attempts to stagnat
the world and Lock Gaia into Stasis. They battle the Weaver's allies
who have turned form their brethren, the Glass Walkers, and they are
rumored to be backed further by a secretive sect of Mages. The 13
tribes of the Garou include the degranged and destructive backers of
the Wyrm, the Black Spiral Dancers.
Wyld: Harder to imagine, probably a prehistoric game, where the
wilderness around the sporadic human tribes are filled with chaos,
flux, and spontaneous natural (and unnatural) disasters. The Wyld
rules supreme and threatens to dissovle Gaia into a whirling maelstom
of constant flux. The Wyld's allies included the traitorous Black
Furies (the appointed protectors of the Wyld in the rulebook, but this
could just as easily be the Red Talons, which seems to fit better).
If this is a part of the WoD timeline, but at an earlier point, then
the extinct tribes would be in existence, but if its in an alternate
timeline, or a distant future point, then the Black Spirals could be
considered part of the 13 tribes.
Just a thought and twist on the norm.
ell...@nccn.net
I actually had an interesting thought... Gaia vs. Garou.
Y'see, back in the days of the Impergium, Gaia was mighty sore, what
with her Big chilluns killin' her little chilluns. She's thinkin' "Aw,
crap, why the #@$@#$ did I give 'em Rage? Of all the stupid..." and so
forth. So she thinks, these guys need to relax, so I'll give them a
little diversion! So she goes to the Wyrm, and says, hey, scare me up
some toxic freaks, for old times sake! And sure enough, the Garou are
going TOXIC FREAKS AHOY! And they left the humans alone.
The problem is, Gaia also gave her children Gnosis. This gave them a
powerful bond with the Umbra, and when they saw these beasts of the
Wyrm, it created such a powerful imprint in their minds that an actual
Wyrm of Decay formed in the Umbra. And now you know.... the rest of the
story!
Cacophony Scream-of-Carrier, Jaggling of Whippoorwill, servant of
Cockroach, chaos on the web!
"Have fun with your debuggers, you mindless drones!"
-Seen on the screens of an entire Pentex computer network before the
whole thing sorta went belly up.
Madness is the only reasonable course of action in an insane world.
‘Round here we talk just like lions,
But we sacrifice like lambs.
‘Round here…
She’s slipping through my hands.
-Counting Crows, "Round Here"
me
Well now that I can finally post to this group I thought I'd throw in my
opinion. I don't think the Vampires are wyrm or weaver or wild. It depends on
their "life" experiences. If a vampire has too low humanity (tabletop) or two
or more beast traits (Live-action) - three for gangrel or are of a lower than
6th(?) gen then they smell of the wyrm. Why? Because of the beast. That's what
the Wyrm is. A garou's rage is of the wyrm. When they frenzy they are
controlled by it. If the garou (tabletop) rolls to many successs they are in
"the thrall of the wym". Which is why the low humanity and beast traits smell
of the wyrm. They are closer to the beast therefore closer to the wyrm. Garou
who frenzy a lot become closer to they wyrm also. I don't get the low
generation thing but I guess it's possible that the methuselah thirst has
something to do with it....
So IMHO I think that garou and vampires can have relations and though it may
be their first instinct to smell the wyrm on the leeches, if the "scent" is
not there that means the Kindred has some restraint and "good" left in them
and the garou will not kill them outright. Unless, of course they are in a bad
mood.
Candace