Mage vs World of Darkness
Edmond du Money
Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
penaties etc.
Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
against them.
Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
used to cause damage
Waiting for your reply
Edmond du Money
INQ:HCI & Voivode:Tzimisce & Member of Earth by Night
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4052/
Tell them I send you.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
Yes. The game Mage:the Ascension is balanced unto itself. The
players use magick and their antagonists, whether Marauder, Nephandus
or Technocrat also use magick. That's balanced. Mages OUGHT to be
powerful. They're the ultimate expression of human will. They bend
reality. It's what they do.
What you want is for mages to be weakened so they're on par with the
other supernaturals. Too bad. If you think mages are too powerful
for your vampire, then ask your ST not to throw them at you.
Mage in itself is balanced. If you're playing a crossover game, you
should expect that there will be ways in which the games don't mesh
flawlessly. The White Wolf people know this, which is why they
haven't put out a book of crossover rules. Chaos Factor is as close
as they've come, and that, you may notice, was quite a while ago.
>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates.
Ok, one at at time: First, they're NOT called neonates. That's a
beginning vampire. A newly awakened mage is called a newly awakened
mage. Secondly, they ARE limited to three dots of Arete to start out
with. Have you READ the Mage rule?
>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>experience.
Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
> Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>penaties etc.
Did your favorite Tremere get nuked by an Akashic or what? You're
going way above and beyond the call of duty in whining about mages.
I'm getting the impression that there may be something behind this...
>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this? It's
obvious you just want vampires to be invulnerable to mages, which is
ludicrous. At VERY low generations (say 7th and lower) vampires may
have some pretty nasty abilities by which your average mage might be
caught unawares, but in general a willworker SHOULD be able to defeat
a cursed and walking dead thing.
>Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
>against them.
Again, why? Besides your anti-mage hysteria, what is the reasoning
for this?
>Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
>magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
>Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
>used to cause damage
Isn't that how it works already?
And all it takes is Matter 3 Life 3 to alter the pattern of the
vampire in such a way as to remove that nasty Fortitude. Makes them
all soft and malleable. Always a good first step when confronting
those rude Gangrel and arrogant Ventrue...
Any more clever suggestions?
K.
Nyarlathotep
In article <88055002...@air.adept.co.za>, "Edmond du Money"
<edmond...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
> more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
>
> Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
> real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
> magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
Not really. Warranted Mages are powerful, but Countermagick is limited
to a maximum of ten dice. The Ventrue Primogen in my Austin has on average
ten - twelve dice in her Dominate and Presence pools. And a couple of dots
of Celerity as well. Potentially, she could Dominate an Oracle with a ten
Arete, provided she gets surprise and rolls twelve successes on her attack
(or hits him with Dread Gaze first, limiting his Arete pool). My Ventrue
character (her childe) could just as easily take take a Mage with a 4-6
Arete due to his six - eight die pool Presence pool. Not to mention that
in both cases the Mage has to roll half his willpower/base willpower or
counter magick 8-12 successes (Charisma + Intimidation difficulty) to even
think of attacking these two (Majesty).
> Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
> Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
> In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
> supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
> mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
> experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
> penaties etc.
At start Arete is limited to a maximum of three according to _Mage: the
Ascension_ 2nd Ed.
> Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
> magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
> Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
> Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
> against them.
_Mage the Ascension_ 1st Ed. used to have this in that non-mages could
resist with Willpower. Changelings can counter true magick with Glamour
directly. Wraiths are just plain tough and can soak anything, so I would
allow them to soak coincidental pattern-affecting magick with stamina.
Werewolves I would rule the same, and I might allow a Rank roll to
determine if the Werewolf PC notices the Mage using a Mind effect on him
(difficulty 8). Elder Vamps, or any PC with Mental disciplines or
experience in being Dominated or affected by Presence, would get
Intelligence + Alertness to do the same.
> Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
> magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
> Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
> used to cause damage
For Coincidental direct Pattern-affecting magick, go with Stamina (+
Fortitude, Luna's Armor, etc...) to resist. For Vulgar direct
Pattern-affecting the supernatural would get whatever power it possessed
that allowed it soak "exceptional" aggravated damage to soak these effects
(Fortitude, Luna's Armor, etc...). All supernaturals would gain benefit
from the "Willpower to resist of counter Mind Magick" rules, provided they
were aware, knew what the Mage was or were old enough and experienced
enough (like older neonate Ventrue, Tremere vampires, ranked Bone Gnawers
or Glass Walkers).
Note that I said pattern affecting. None of the above have any ability
to counter Indirect-effects, excepting Changelings. This is the "Cyclops
vs. Sebastian Shaw" scenario. In other words, you may be able to ressit
counter my magick, but the floor beneath you can't. Hope this helps.
Rod K.
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"This life is slow suicide, unless you read."
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Mark Antill
Edmond du Money wrote in message <88055002...@air.adept.co.za>...
>Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
>more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
>
>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even
other
>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>magic.
Um, not quite. They can try to counter powers aimed directly at them if they
know the power is being used and they have appropriate spheres. (e.g. you
need mind to try and counter a Vamps Presence). Even then most player mages
will have at most 4 dice, where as the supernatural using the power is often
rolling attribute + ability, often a much larger dice pool.
Actually Hedge Mages are often better a countering supernatural powers if
they have they countermagic ritual, go figure.
Oh, and Changelings can resist Magick by rolling Glamour, although the rules
vary depending on which book you read (Mage 2nd ed or the Changling 2nd
edition storyletters screen book thingy)
>I this acceptible for game balance?
I have played and run long term games that have had both mages and other
critters. There has never been a game balance issue. The mages have been
good at some things, the other creatures at others. Sure the mages could
have ofted the vamps at some point, but it works both ways.
If anything, the mage players have often felt disadvataged because their
characters are so fragile and the rugs and bloodsuckers have the capacity to
frenzy and pull their head off if provoked too much.
>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
Well, in second edition Arete is limited to 3 dot. Which limits your spheres
as well.
>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more
expensive.
In all Mage games I have played quint has been very scarce. Thats why Mages
fight over nodes.
>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>penaties etc.
>
>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
>against them.
>Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage
from
>magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
>Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
>used to cause damage
>
Well in 2nd edition all supernatural get a Perception + Alertness roll to
notice a magickal attack, even if it is not visible to sleepers.
I don't have the rule book with me, but Chaos Factor (p133) says
"Direct attacks- lighnting bolts, explostions, transformation spells, magick
bullets, blasts of holy light- are often vulgar and usually visible. If an
opponent can see or sense an incomming magickal effect (and remember that
Perception + Alertness roll, Auspex, Sense Magic, Awarness etc) she can
elect to dodge that effect as if it were some normal missile weapon"
It also goes on to say that mind attacks can be "dodged" with willpower.
This provides plenty of protection for other denzins of the world of
darkness from magick withou new penalties.
Also Mage lists some magickal attacks as causing unsoakable aggravted
damage. I belive someone posted a net ruling from White Wolf a little while
back on this. It stated that they were only unsoakable for Mages, who
officially cannot soak agg damage anyway, unless they have Life 3. Vamps
with Foritude and Were-critters can soak these attacks as normal.
I find most of the problems with mage comes from STs being too generous on
the number of success and amount of time and effort needed to pull off major
magick "two success eh? sure, that will turn the Prince into teddy bear for
the week".
>Waiting for your reply
>Edmond du Money
>INQ:HCI & Voivode:Tzimisce & Member of Earth by Night
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4052/
>Tell them I send you.
>
mant.
SuperCaine
>
>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>penaties etc.
I don't believe mages are all that powerful in comparison to other WoD
creatures. Sure, if the mage gets the oppurtunity to use their magick, yes,
maybe they can turn a werewolf into a soap bubble, but if the Garou is quick
enough, he could tear it to bloody shreds. Remember that Mages are mortal. A
vampire can, as long as the mage doesn't interfere with magick, whip out an
uzi, or other automatic weapon of choice, and shoot the guy/girl. But, of
course, given the oppurtunity, a Mage can kick some serious supernatural arse.
>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
>against them.
>Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
>magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
>Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
>used to cause damage
Well, in my opinion, that would just give a total and utter advantage to the
other WoD creatures, and leave a young Mage to be killed. That would also ruin
the purpose of magick too. Mages are pretty much only special due to their
magick, and without it, they are fairly normal. Well, as normal as you can get
in the WoD.
Spooooooooooooonnnn!!!!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Super...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/supercaine
"31337 is dead...."
JBRocky
The argument so far goes like this
>>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>>magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
Only problem with this is that you have to know what Magick is to counter it.
The Tremere problem have rituals or paths to take care of this.
>
>Yes. The game Mage:the Ascension is balanced unto itself. The
>players use magick and their antagonists, whether Marauder, Nephandus
>or Technocrat also use magick. That's balanced. Mages OUGHT to be
>powerful. They're the ultimate expression of human will. They bend
>reality. It's what they do.
>What you want is for mages to be weakened so they're on par with the
>other supernaturals. Too bad. If you think mages are too powerful
>for your vampire, then ask your ST not to throw them at you.
>Mage in itself is balanced. If you're playing a crossover game, you
>should expect that there will be ways in which the games don't mesh
>flawlessly. The White Wolf people know this, which is why they
>haven't put out a book of crossover rules. Chaos Factor is as close
>as they've come, and that, you may notice, was quite a while ago.
>
>>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates.
>
>Ok, one at at time: First, they're NOT called neonates. That's a
>beginning vampire. A newly awakened mage is called a newly awakened
>mage. Secondly, they ARE limited to three dots of Arete to start out
>with. Have you READ the Mage rule?
>
>>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>>experience.
First of these 100 to 1000 old Vamps would have eliminated the offending Mage
long before the Mage saw them or even knew they existed. After all this is why
they are elders.
>
>Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
>supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
>
Not is the oter supernatural is played right. Killing another supernatural is
somthing a Mage would have to work at. Remember a Mage doesn't know a vamps
real weaknesses.
>> Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>>penaties etc.
They do! However they use Magick to eliminate these obstacles.
>
>Did your favorite Tremere get nuked by an Akashic or what? You're
>going way above and beyond the call of duty in whining about mages.
>I'm getting the impression that there may be something behind this...
>
He is going a bit far but so are you.
>>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>
>And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
>of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
>should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
>vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this?
Vampire folklore also says vamps are repelled by cross and running water, but
not in the game. As for Mage folklore they're all supossed to be gray breads
like Gandolf. Nothing is said about Technomancers.
> It's
>obvious you just want vampires to be invulnerable to mages, which is
>ludicrous. At VERY low generations (say 7th and lower) vampires may
>have some pretty nasty abilities by which your average mage might be
>caught unawares, but in general a willworker SHOULD be able to defeat
>a cursed and walking dead thing.
>
Wrong answer it depends on more than that. I have an 7th gen elder that could
kick the but of many a Mage without even expossing his indenity
>>Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
>>against them.
I agree with this somewhat. If using the mind Sphere no way use it just like
dominate. If trying to turn a Vamp into a soap bubble raise that difficulty.
My chronicle uses +1 for Neonytes, +2 for Ancilla, +3 for Elders, +4 for
Methuslahs, and no chace for Anti's
>
>Again, why? Besides your anti-mage hysteria, what is the reasoning
>for this?
>
Because Supernaturals are different than mortals.
>>Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
>>magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
>>Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
>>used to cause damage
>
>Isn't that how it works already?
>
>And all it takes is Matter 3 Life 3 to alter the pattern of the
>vampire in such a way as to remove that nasty Fortitude. Makes them
>all soft and malleable. Always a good first step when confronting
>those rude Gangrel and arrogant Ventrue...
>
Bull#@%& It takes far more than what any Mage can do to eliminate a disclipine.
Why? Because a Mage has no clue as to how they work. Also a disclipine is
far more than just Matter 3 and Life 3.
>Any more clever suggestions?
Get Real!
P. S. can a mage off a Vamp? Yes, but it depends on boths power and
preperation.
Jeff R
K. Aspinall
First of these 100 to 1000 old Vamps would have eliminated the offending Mage
long before the Mage saw them or even knew they existed. After all this is
why
they are elders.
So thats why there are all these mages / archmages / oracles walking round?
Elders cannot guarantee what happens in the future, and they certainly dont
know whats happening in the mages horizon realm / sanctum where the mage
spends his time planning.
>
>Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
>supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
>
Not is the oter supernatural is played right. Killing another supernatural
is
somthing a Mage would have to work at. Remember a Mage doesn't know a vamps
real weaknesses.
Simple scans can determine the weakness. And the vampire wont know the mages
either - because any weakness they have can be affected by magic and reduced
etc.
Killing other supernaturals is easy for the right mage - thats why they
dont! Mages have other mages to work against, and various other nasty
thingies. I have mage I have been playing for 9 weeks now, who started with
no sphere above 2, and has gained experiance exactly as statede in the books
- and he can wipe out low level vampires very easily. Forces + time = boom.
Thats why we dont fight vampires - we cant afford to, with the Ascension war
going on against the technocracy, and some Nephandri lurking around the
place.
Also, a couple of other points :
a) If disciplines are so incredible, why do the most powerful beings in
existance (Incarna) have sphere ratings and not disciplines?
b) On a personal note - I rather like the idea that suppossedly "mere
mortals" possess the power to beat the supernaturals once awakened - there is
hope for us after all! :)
Kris Aspinall
Clemens Schmitz
K. Aspinall wrote:
(snip some points)
> Also, a couple of other points :
>
> a) If disciplines are so incredible, why do the most powerful beings in
> existance (Incarna) have sphere ratings and not disciplines?
Because you found them in a Mage sourcebook, not in a Vampire
sourcebook. In the same vein you could ask 'How come some Vampires use
Gifts instead of Disciplines?' just because you read about them in a
Werewolf sourcebook
>
> b) On a personal note - I rather like the idea that suppossedly "mere
> mortals" possess the power to beat the supernaturals once awakened - there is
> hope for us after all! :)
Carry on hoping, blood bag :[ (Heck do I produce a Vampiric Smiley ?)
Clemens
--
'The first ten million years were the worst', said Marvin,
'and the second ten million years, they were the worst too.
The third ten million years I didn't enjoy at all.
After that I went into a bit of a decline.'
-Douglas Adams-
K. Aspinall
>> a) If disciplines are so incredible, why do the most powerful beings in
>> existance (Incarna) have sphere ratings and not disciplines?
>
>Because you found them in a Mage sourcebook, not in a Vampire
>sourcebook. In the same vein you could ask 'How come some Vampires use
>Gifts instead of Disciplines?' just because you read about them in a
>Werewolf sourcebook
Thats not my point. when vampires are listed in werewolf books, it always
says that these arnt their proper abilities, but for ease use them, etc.
However, the Incarna I mentioned doesnt have that prefix, or anything like
it - it simply has the spheres listed.
And, indeed, they are truly sick... :)
>> b) On a personal note - I rather like the idea that suppossedly "mere
>> mortals" possess the power to beat the supernaturals once awakened - there
is
>> hope for us after all! :)
>
>Carry on hoping, blood bag :[ (Heck do I produce a Vampiric Smiley ?)
Now we're getting into character! So how do I make a VA face? Presumable,
some little smiley face that winks at you when reading?
Perhaps <:) will do for a guy in a pointy wizards hat? :)
Kris Aspinall
Clemens Schmitz
K. Aspinall wrote:
(snip my stuff)
> Thats not my point. when vampires are listed in werewolf books, it always
> says that these arnt their proper abilities, but for ease use them, etc.
> However, the Incarna I mentioned doesnt have that prefix, or anything like
> it - it simply has the spheres listed.
Well, there are no rules for the Incarna's real abilities, so they just
use those given for Mages. What do you need, Incarna:the Ruling?
> And, indeed, they are truly sick... :)
Yes, with those Sphere Levels listed they are pretty powerful as they
should be. So they have the flexibility of Mages coupled with real power
and no fear of Paradox. They are better than most Mages, don't have
their darwbacks and they are probably more powerful than the
Antediluvians, but with their own limited goals to follow.
(snip)
> >Carry on hoping, blood bag :[ (Heck how do I produce a Vampiric Smiley ?)
>
> Now we're getting into character! So how do I make a VA face? Presumable,
> some little smiley face that winks at you when reading?
Nice idea.
> Perhaps <:) will do for a guy in a pointy wizards hat? :)
Nah, looks like a quoted Smiley. How about *<:) ?
Jack
This is a troll, It has to be a troll, please, say it's a troll. I can't
believe that this person is serious. Not after the length of the
Dominating thread.
Edmond du Money wrote:
>
> Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
> more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
>
> Mages are TOO POWERFUL.
<snip>
> Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
> magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
> Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
> Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
> against them.
> Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
> magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
> Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
> used to cause damage
I believe that this is already allowed according to mage & vampire faq's
& rulesbooks
> Waiting for your reply
<--- please don't oblige him , we've seen enough of this argument from
the Dominating a mage thread.
> Edmond du Money
--
Jack Rogers
All views expressed above are not those of my employer.
Fake E-mail address to deter unwanted mail.
My actual e-mail address may not be used under any circumstances
K. Aspinall
>> >Carry on hoping, blood bag :[ (Heck how do I produce a Vampiric Smiley ?)
>>
>> Now we're getting into character! So how do I make a VA face? Presumable,
>> some little smiley face that winks at you when reading?
>
>Nice idea.
>
>> Perhaps <:) will do for a guy in a pointy wizards hat? :)
>
>Nah, looks like a quoted Smiley. How about *<:) ?
That looks better! *<:) for mages...
I think the vampire one needs work though - it just looks like someone
unhappy.
Perhaps :)> ? or :)= ?
You can tell my ability at smiley's isnt exactly world class... *<:)
Kris Aspinall
Clemens Schmitz
K. Aspinall wrote:
> >> Perhaps <:) will do for a guy in a pointy wizards hat? :)
> >
> >Nah, looks like a quoted Smiley. How about *<:) ?
>
> That looks better! *<:) for mages...
>
> I think the vampire one needs work though - it just looks like someone
> unhappy.
Well, that's quite fitting for all those gothy, angsty Vampire
wannabees.
> Perhaps :)> ? or :)= ?
Ugh, :)= looks like buck teeth, almost as bad as :B, I'd say Nosferatu
only...
What's :)> supposed to be, a Vampire in evening clothes?
> You can tell my ability at smiley's isnt exactly world class... *<:)
Yes, but this is USENET. Soon dozens of others will join in the fun and
produce better results than just the two of us c]B-) (Man in Black
Smiley)
> Kris Aspinall
Anders Sandberg
Iteration X smiley: 001110100010110100101001
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
a...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
The Athar
I know I'll hate myself in the morning for doing this..but..
>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>penaties etc.
Ah, but whenever a vampire uses Potence, does he have to worry about Paradox
spirits, or Technocracy agents tracking him down and killing him for being a
Reality Deviant? Don't think so. I know that if I had to roll for Paradox
everytime one of my player's vampire characters used Fortitude or Celerity,
they'd be in the *biggest* Paradox Realm ever created right now. How about
Werewolves? Whenever an Ahroun uses Razor Claws, does he need to worry about
Paradox Flaws? Nope, nope, nope.
Oh, yeah..about a 18 year old mage killing an Elder or a Methuselah. I honestly
doubt that. Okay, my mage has a two in Forces, two in Prime, one in Matter and
one in Correspondence (Extra dot 'cause he's a Virtual Adept). Now *your* one
hundred year old Cainite has a three in Potence, three in Celerity, four in
Presence, two in Fortitude and two in Animalism. They roll initiative. Darn.
The Elder goes first. Let's see..that's four actions because of Celerity, and
automatic two successes to damage because of Potence. Hmmmmm..oh, yeah, almost
forgot. He can spend Blood Points to raise his Strenght/Dexterity/Stamina as
high as he wants, depending on how low his Generation is.
Now it's the Mages turn. Two in Forces..um..okay, can't *create* fire to blast
at him, and I don't have Life Magick to heal the damage the Cainite just did to
me..so..um..I'll use Forces of two to create a static discharge around him!
Okay, rolling my Arete of three for damage..darn..only two successes. The
vampire now rolls Stamina. *Gasp* Three successes! He takes no damage, and he
gets THREE more actions! Now who do you think is gonna win?
Now if an Elder could beat up a Disciple mage, imagine what a 1,000 year old
vampire could do? Oh, one more thing. When the mage cast that Static Discharge
thing (See above), and let's say somehow he killed the Cainite. He *still* has
to roll for Paradox. And that's not a pretty sight.
In short, everyone here has *discussed* this already and I'm fairly certain we
all agree that all the games are pretty much equal. So, please, go re-read
Mage: The Ascension 2nd Edition and learn the rules. Thanks.
- Brant
Clemens Schmitz
Anders Sandberg wrote:
>
> Iteration X smiley: 001110100010110100101001
That's the funniest Smiley yet :)
Jack
Anders Sandberg wrote:
>
> Iteration X smiley: 001110100010110100101001
like it!, reminds me of the 2 hitmarks telling a joke.
Linda Calhan
Hello all,
I have a question regarding the Tzmisce disciplin of
Vicissitude.
Can a vampire with Vicissitude increase a Nosferatu's apperence? Can
vicissitude remove the animalistic features of a Gangrel that has failed
frenzy checks? If so are there any special rules? Thanks
Baern
David Johnston
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
> ludicrous. At VERY low generations (say 7th and lower) vampires may
> have some pretty nasty abilities by which your average mage might be
> caught unawares, but in general a willworker SHOULD be able to defeat
> a cursed and walking dead thing.
If he gains initiative, that is. If the cursed and walking "dead"
thing is within armsreach, it might very well be able to pop his head
like a zit.
>
> >Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
> >against them.
>
> Again, why? Besides your anti-mage hysteria, what is the reasoning
> for this?
I personally would raise the number of successes required to directly
affect vampires, simply because wiping out a vampire (particularly a
powerful one) does strike me as being a more impressive
feat than wiping out a Sleeper.
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com abbia
inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
>supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
Well, it think this to be wrong. Vampires have enemies among all kind
of WoD creature. Werewolves the same. Changeling the same. Whrait, ok,
not so much enemies, but their existetence it's an enemy itself. Mages
have all the enemies too, but as you said before, being the only
creature to use true Magick, only other mages are a real threat to a
mage. Then why White Wolf put Vampires, Werewolves and the like as
enemies? I don't think them to be just cannon fodder.
>And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
>of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
>should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
>vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this?
Stop with this folklore topic!! As I already stated, vampiric folklore
does not apply to White Wolf vampires!!! A mage folklore exists, and
depicts mages as very old white-bearded men, with long pointed hats
and long robes with stars on it! In the vampire stories I read when I
was a child vampires where afraid of garlic, running water and the
like. And I'm sure that in mage stories I read when I was young there
weren't mage capable of mingling weapons, make people explode, alter
reality in such a consitent way...
About the ability of vampires in manipulating time, I could simply say
that they already manipulate time, by stopping their aging. They do it
passively but it could be that a few Vampires learned to use time in a
less passive way, so developing Temporis.
Mages are potent beings, but this does not mean that all other
supernatural creatures are wimpy. Remember that unsuccesful creatures
do not live enought to procreate and develop. If mages are so much
powerful, why all the vampires have not been wiped away by mages
through the ages? Maybe some vampires are just more cunning,
intelligent, EXPERIENCED... Living for centuries has other effects
than simply increasing your discipline rating.
Giorgio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giorgio Anselmi gio...@progetto3000.it Sopor Aeternus & The Ensemble of Shadows
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/6583/ The Unofficial Site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che CSC...@leeds.ac.uk (K. Aspinall)
abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
> Thats why we dont fight vampires - we cant afford to, with the Ascension war
>going on against the technocracy, and some Nephandri lurking around the
>place.
Presumptuous. "We don't just wipe away all vampires 'cause we're busy
now"...
>a) If disciplines are so incredible, why do the most powerful beings in
>existance (Incarna) have sphere ratings and not disciplines?
Simply because disciplines are side effects of a curse, a NEGATIVE
THING. Vampiric exsistence it's a PUNISHMENT. Incarna are something
completely different!!
Remember, if a Mage becomes a powerful creature, it's just a matter of
study, exercise and practice.
If a Vampire becomes a powerful creature he/she had to work the
TRIPLE, to stand against the negative sides of his/her condition,
striving not to become a mindless murderer, avoiding the Sun and fire,
the sudden awakenings of The Beast. Being a Vampire it's not nice. You
start with a lot of disadvantages. Mages don't.
>b) On a personal note - I rather like the idea that suppossedly "mere
>mortals" possess the power to beat the supernaturals once awakened - there is
>hope for us after all! :)
A mere mortal with a flamethrower or a bazooka can beat the
supernatural even without being a Mage. A Mage is simply a mortal with
the flamethrower hidden in his hands... :-)
LrdQuietus
OKay, I'm getting just about sick of all these "This can beat up that"
postings. Okay, okay, I'll admit, they ARE entertaining to watch, but I feel I
need to put my two cents in this matter;
The actual power level OF the entity doesn't depend on the actual KIND of
thing they are (be it Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Wraith, ect), but it depends on
the individual.
ie:
A Methusilah would kick ol' Joe Akashic's ass almost any day
almost any Ancilla would be torched by a Hermetic Master.
Is there a point? Yea. Otherwise, whether or not a Mage would win against a
Vampire does not matter on the fact that he is a Mage or a Vampire, it depends
on the fact that which individual is more powerfull at the time.
Thank you for your time.
Ian Turner
to permanently make a Nosferatu pretty again, but that other Nosferatu
will look down on someone who does this.
Which IMO is a bonus. "I get to be pretty again AND the other ugly
bastards will avoid me? Sweet!"
There is no mention of whether the Gangrel, Samedi, Cappadocians or
Kiasyd can benefit from this effect.
*I* rule that the Nosferatu / Samedi / Cappadocian / Kiasyd / Gangrel
Curses reasserts themselves overnight, just as the Malkavian one does
against Obeah or similar Derangement healing attempts, allowing a Nos
with a Fleshcrafting buddy to be made beautiful for a night (or even to
do it himself if he has Changeling), but not to retain such
improvements.
Ian T
Feyd-Rautha
>a) If disciplines are so incredible, why do the most powerful beings in
>existance (Incarna) have sphere ratings and not disciplines?
Maybe because Incarna encounters occur several orders of magnitude
more frequently in Mage games than in Vampire games? And so White Wolf
gave Incarna abilities/powers in a way that the characters they'd be
more likely to encounter would be able to have a chance of surviving if
they were pissed off?
>b) On a personal note - I rather like the idea that suppossedly "mere
>mortals" possess the power to beat the supernaturals once awakened - there is
>hope for us after all! :)
-feyd
Clemens Schmitz
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
> Stop with this folklore topic!! As I already stated, vampiric folklore
> does not apply to White Wolf vampires!!! A mage folklore exists, and
> depicts mages as very old white-bearded men, with long pointed hats
> and long robes with stars on it!
Whoa, stop there! First off, just because you stated something there is
no reason to stop the topic, it is one of the faves around here. Second,
the is a lot of mage folklore that is a whole lot different from old men
in pointy hats, I don't know what kind of children's book you read to
get that picture in your mind.
Thank you,
LenaFalk
>> You can tell my ability at smiley's isnt exactly world class... *<:)
>
>Yes, but this is USENET. Soon dozens of others will join in the fun and
>produce better results than just the two of us c]B-) (Man in Black
>Smiley)
Naah. c[8-| is better for Men in Black.
>> Kris Aspinall
>
>Clemens
Lena
~~~~~~~
I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Linda Calhan wrote:
> Can a vampire with Vicissitude increase a Nosferatu's apperence? Can
> vicissitude remove the animalistic features of a Gangrel that has
> failed frenzy checks? If so are there any special rules?
This has seen reversal in recent WW products.
I think Vicissitude was meant to be permanent (or, at least, lasting
until re-Vicissituded) in the heady days of First Edition and Sabbat
products. (Hence the reference to a beautified Nosferatu antitribu
in _Berlin by Night_.)
Now, however, Vicissitude (as of _Dark Ages_, anyway) is temporary for
vampires -- they can heal it with Blood Points just like injuries (or so
I've read). I don't like the fix myself, but, hey, that's what the
Golden Rule is for.
I suppose, if you _really_ want to retcon things, you can play the party
line of 'Vampires evolve over centuries, that's why Dark Ages rules are
deliberately different from modern-day Vampire rules' -- this even makes
a certain degree of sense if you believe in the Vicissitude-is-a-living-
breathing-Umbral-parasite backstory. I'm not much for the retcon,
however.
-- S. Skoog
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Clemens Schmitz
<csch...@geo.uni-jena.de> abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>Whoa, stop there! First off, just because you stated something there is
>no reason to stop the topic, it is one of the faves around here. Second,
>the is a lot of mage folklore that is a whole lot different from old men
>in pointy hats, I don't know what kind of children's book you read to
>get that picture in your mind.
I am not English, so don't upset if I use improper words. Instead of
"to state" put "to say". And I do not want to stop the whole thread,
just the one who says that Vampires must adhere to folklore. As you
should know, White Wold drastically changed the common vision of
Vampires. There is a lot of mage folklore different from pointy hat
guys, but very little speaking of persons who alter the pattern of
reality with the simple use of will. For Vampires is the same.
Remember that Murnau, in the movie "Nosferatu" gave the Vampire the
tragic flaw he cannot bear sunlight. Should we adhere to ancient
folklore? Ok, then vampires can perfectly walk outside in a sunny day.
Deschatelets Pascal
>>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>>magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
>>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
>>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>>experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>>penaties etc.
>Now if an Elder could beat up a Disciple mage, imagine what a 1,000 year old
>vampire could do? Oh, one more thing. When the mage cast that Static Discharge
>thing (See above), and let's say somehow he killed the Cainite. He *still* has
>to roll for Paradox. And that's not a pretty sight.
>In short, everyone here has *discussed* this already and I'm fairly certain we
>all agree that all the games are pretty much equal. So, please, go re-read
>Mage: The Ascension 2nd Edition and learn the rules. Thanks.
I agree 100%. But to be the devil's advocate, I would have to say
that mages, vampires and garous don't start at the same level of power,
they don't follow the same learning curves and they evolve in different
environment. I just underline a few points that is often overlooked when
discussing game balance and all.
It's hard and not realistic to compare those systems by placing
one type of beings with another type of being inside a closed arena and
let them duke it out. It's a matter of individual characters. You can
create a vampiric ancillae that will kick an elder mage, I can create a
mage apprentice that will kick your ancillae and in the end, we don't know
any more who's the most "powerful".
As for game balance, it might be a point if the beings evolved in
the same environments, but they don't. They tend to keep to their own
kinds and comparing kindred vs kindred and mages vs mages means the game
balance issue becomes moot. And EVEN if one type of beings was clearly
more powerful than another one, so what? This is not street fighter where
the most powerful wins. This is a roleplaying game.
Let's compare starting characters (I know.. how incoherent when
I just mentionned you cannot compare apples with oranges, but hey, let's
humour the point.).
As far as background goes, I think each type of beings can share the
same "background" before their awakening. So, everyone is equal.
Pure physical fighting power.
Garous starting characters start ahead.
Kindred as good seconds, specially with fighting type.
Mage are last.
That's in general. Individuals can have their own priorities and
you can easily imagine an Akashic Brother kicking butt of a scholarly
garou.
Political/Influencial power.
Garous don't gain that much boost from their natures.
Kindred get a good boost (again, depending on the type), but at
the same time, nightshift only is a disad here.
Mage gain moderate possibilities here, depending on type again
(but usually don't focus on this as much as kindred does).
Again, varies from individual to individual. But their environment
tend to reinforce this trend (kindred usually crave for political
power more so than garou or magi).
Versatility.
Mage wins in this field. Even starting characters can use their
powers for an infinite number of useful if not powerful effects.
Kindred are second as they have access to a few disciplines that
have good versatility.
Garou come last (but I don't know Werewolf all that well, so I
could be dead wrong, but I figure they have less gifts and they
are more limited than disciplines).
So, depending on environment, each class has its own strenght and
weaknesses, even for starting characters. But mages tend to come out as
underdogs as starting characters. Highly versatile but not a lot of
power behind it. You need a very crafty player (mage) to compete with a
joe average kindred or garou in many situations.
Learning curve (character development)
To make it quick, Mage have access to a wider assortment of effects
and powers. With their inherent versatility, you can add it up with more
powerful effects for truly frightening reality manipulation.
I would say Kindred come second. A lot of disciplines to develop
with a good kick at the high levels (4+).
Garous gain versatility with time, but not power on the same level.
They still keep slightly ahead on the physical class, but don't keep up
on the other field.
Old, Powerful, Experienced characters.
I would say a mage, if not more powerful, is way more versatile than
a kindred. Only Chimestry allows a versatility close to that. A lot of
the disciplines can be imitated by clever magickal effects. But at the same
time, the paradox disad is still around, a damocles sword.
But in the end, it's moot, as they operate on vastly different levels
and in different environment.
Pascal
--
Pascal Deschatelets -Nothing is really unavoidable,
Humble Chemistry Ph.D. student except Death and Taxes.
University of Montreal. But even them, you can cheat for a while.
Pas...@Cryogen.com http://www.cryogen.com/Pascal
AdamRLee
My comment to Mages being too powerful comes from the events of a game we ran
tonight...
We were playing in occupied France during the war. I was a NWO agent, and
the other members of the party were a Celestial Chorister and a Brujah Vampire.
Yeah this is wierd but remember that the Traditions and the Technocracy joined
up to crush the Nephandi and connected Axis. The vamp was just a local guide.
Well, after working our way into a French hospital that had been deserted we
discovered that a proginitor gone Barrabi was experimenting on people and
turning them into things beyond our imagination. The Chorister, in fact,
botched a willpower roll so bad that he lost the ability to do magic about 3
seconds before we confronted the enemy. Point one, drop under five willpower,
loose ALL ability to work magic. Thus, Auspex level 8 (psychic Assault) can
DESTROY a mage, even a powerful one with say Arete 9 and willpower nine, loose
half of that and poof no more magic.
While I was fighting a gun battle with a constructed monster where I was
backing up and firing constantly as this thing tried to advance on me (backing
up and firing due to exellent training, know to Reality Deviants as Mind Sphere
Multitasking) the Brujah was MOPPING THE FLOOR with the Barabbi. The guy had
NO matter and thus was having a real hard time magicking the vampire. In the
mean time, Mr. Brujah with potence three is beating the bejezzus out of the
Nephandus. And this is no wimp proginitor either, abils like 10 10 12 or
something and a bunch of Spheres (Life Four, Mind Two, Prime Three etc.) Point
two, Mages can't do diddly squat without the right spheres, and getting all of
the spheres and any sort of usefully destructive level is real tough. Without
Spirit, for example, mages are easy targets for Garou Theurges (or most Garou
for that matter) and certainly mauled by Wraiths. Matter is required to harm
vampires. To hurt mages requires going over their countermagic.
So my point is that Mages are severly restricted by the sheen number of
Spheres required to do a really usefull offensive attack. The thing they are
best at is being enhanced mortals, like my character, using minor effects to
improve on normal activities, not using prime four to unexist something (the
chorister, before his untimely peek into the Maternity ward at this barabbi
influenced hospital, had Prime four and Spirt two, nothing else. He got a lot
of Paradox and was purely lucky that the backlashes didn't happen, of course,
one of those days)
Adam
Mostly Vampire and Technocrat player.
sauron
>>Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
>>supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
>
>Well, it think this to be wrong. Vampires have enemies among all kind
>of WoD creature. Werewolves the same. Changeling the same. Whrait, ok,
>not so much enemies, but their existetence it's an enemy itself. Mages
>have all the enemies too, but as you said before, being the only
>creature to use true Magick, only other mages are a real threat to a
>mage. Then why White Wolf put Vampires, Werewolves and the like as
>enemies? I don't think them to be just cannon fodder.
It didn't, really. You'll notice that the first antagonists mentioned
in the mage book are other mages. The other denizens of the WOD are
given write-ups, but for whatever reasons, they and the mages have
their own things to do. In some cases, they may not even be aware of
each other's existence.
>
>>And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
>>of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
>>should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
>>vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this?
>
>
>Stop with this folklore topic!! As I already stated, vampiric folklore
>does not apply to White Wolf vampires!!! A mage folklore exists, and
>depicts mages as very old white-bearded men, with long pointed hats
>and long robes with stars on it! In the vampire stories I read when I
Well, that's actually folklore from one very specific place. Folklore
of, say, withcraft in the middle ages is quite different.
Why *doesn't* folklore apply to vampires? I always enjoy games more
when I can incorporate some myth or folklore into it.
>was a child vampires where afraid of garlic, running water and the
>like. And I'm sure that in mage stories I read when I was young there
>weren't mage capable of mingling weapons, make people explode, alter
>reality in such a consitent way...
Thet depends on what kinds of stories you were reading, doesn't it?
It's not like Icelandic Vitki are exactly the same as Voodoo Hougans.
>About the ability of vampires in manipulating time, I could simply say
>that they already manipulate time, by stopping their aging. They do it
>passively but it could be that a few Vampires learned to use time in a
>less passive way, so developing Temporis.
*shrug* Don't see the need, myself. After about fifty billion "my
mage can beat up your vampire" posts, about the only thing that I'm
really convinced of is that somone making that argument is, more often
than not, going to lack even the most basic knowledge of the mage
rules, and will almost certainly fail to read the section on vampires
in the mage rulebook, which is odd since it's so important to their
argument.
>Mages are potent beings, but this does not mean that all other
>supernatural creatures are wimpy. Remember that unsuccesful creatures
>do not live enought to procreate and develop. If mages are so much
>powerful, why all the vampires have not been wiped away by mages
>through the ages? Maybe some vampires are just more cunning,
>intelligent, EXPERIENCED... Living for centuries has other effects
>than simply increasing your discipline rating.
That is so. And is it just me, or aren't the mages involved in an
ascention war? Are there really enough mages that they can afford to
send squadrons of them out against vampires who, by and large, are
leaving them alone?
>
> Giorgio
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Giorgio Anselmi gio...@progetto3000.it Sopor Aeternus & The Ensemble of Shadows
>http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/6583/ The Unofficial Site
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
_________________________
Sauron
Sau...@cmq.com
________________________
sauron
>I am not English, so don't upset if I use improper words. Instead of
>"to state" put "to say". And I do not want to stop the whole thread,
>just the one who says that Vampires must adhere to folklore. As you
>should know, White Wold drastically changed the common vision of
>Vampires. There is a lot of mage folklore different from pointy hat
>guys, but very little speaking of persons who alter the pattern of
>reality with the simple use of will. For Vampires is the same.
>Remember that Murnau, in the movie "Nosferatu" gave the Vampire the
>tragic flaw he cannot bear sunlight. Should we adhere to ancient
>folklore? Ok, then vampires can perfectly walk outside in a sunny day.
Don't be ascenine. It's a matter of choosing which cultural myths and
folklore you want to emphasize. according to some myths, vampires can
fly. Does this mean all vampires are Mary Poppins with fangs? Sure,
if you want them to be.
_________________________
Sauron
Sau...@cmq.com
________________________
sauron
On 28 Nov 97 22:46:49 GMT, desc...@CHIMCN.UMontreal.CA (Deschatelets
Pascal) wrote:
>>In short, everyone here has *discussed* this already and I'm fairly certain we
>>all agree that all the games are pretty much equal. So, please, go re-read
>>Mage: The Ascension 2nd Edition and learn the rules. Thanks.
BRAVO!!! BRAVO!!!!
>
> I agree 100%. But to be the devil's advocate, I would have to say
>that mages, vampires and garous don't start at the same level of power,
>they don't follow the same learning curves and they evolve in different
>environment. I just underline a few points that is often overlooked when
>discussing game balance and all.
>
> It's hard and not realistic to compare those systems by placing
>one type of beings with another type of being inside a closed arena and
>let them duke it out. It's a matter of individual characters. You can
>create a vampiric ancillae that will kick an elder mage, I can create a
>mage apprentice that will kick your ancillae and in the end, we don't know
>any more who's the most "powerful".
Exactly. I;'ve said this over and over-any combat is going to be
governed by all sorts of factors, including, but not limited to, dumb
luck, choice of spheres, knowledge of vampires (or mages) in general,
knowleged of that specific vampire (or mage), choice of disciplines,
the phase of the moon, and wether you dance with the devil in the pale
moonlight.
>
> As for game balance, it might be a point if the beings evolved in
>the same environments, but they don't. They tend to keep to their own
>kinds and comparing kindred vs kindred and mages vs mages means the game
>balance issue becomes moot. And EVEN if one type of beings was clearly
>more powerful than another one, so what? This is not street fighter where
>the most powerful wins. This is a roleplaying game.
Well, thank god *someone* is keeping this in mind.
_________________________
Sauron
Sau...@cmq.com
________________________
Brian Thomas Habing
adam...@aol.com (AdamRLee) writes:
>Matter is required to harm
>vampires.
Or if they have a crossbow, they could use forces or correspondance to
increase the chances of their shot staking them...
similarly there are plenty of ways to get the mage to a safe distance and
just drop rocks on the vampire, etc...
hey, wait, what am I doing... I'm supposed to be arguing **for**
the vampire side
****vanishes in poof of paradox... or was that just chimestry****
Randy Halvosen
Linda Calhan wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> I have a question regarding the Tzmisce disciplin of
> Vicissitude.
> vicissitude remove the animalistic features of a Gangrel that has failed
>
> Baern
Well, I don't know about any other ST, but mine allowed a Gangrel
character who ended up with some big ass canine teeth, to be modified by
a Sabbat NPC who possessed vicissitude. The process was extremely
painful, and also carried with it a rather large boon, as well. That may
be something to consider as well.
Just my two cents worth,
Aaron Caine,Brujah
sauron
>Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
>more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
>
>Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
>real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
>magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
*boggle* Please. For better or worse, there is no "game balance" in
the world of dimness.
>Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
>penaties etc.
Arete and spheres can't bloody well *get* much more expensive and
still be attainable. Arete four costs 24 xp. Yow. even with a
really good library background, you're going to be playing a while
before you see it.
It would help your argument immensely if you supplied examples instead
of just stating fiat that mages kick ass. It's hardly an established
fact.
>
>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
>against them.
>Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
>magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
>Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
>used to cause damage
I suppose. I still don't see the need, though.
_________________________
Sauron
Sau...@cmq.com
________________________
sauron
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:54:07 GMT, kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
>Yes. The game Mage:the Ascension is balanced unto itself. The
>players use magick and their antagonists, whether Marauder, Nephandus
>or Technocrat also use magick. That's balanced. Mages OUGHT to be
>powerful. They're the ultimate expression of human will. They bend
>reality. It's what they do.
Yup. And before anyone else does, let me drag out the old (and
oft-ignored point) that how much ass a mage can kick is directly
dependent on what spheres he has and how imaginative his player is.
In arguments like this, the mage in question is frequently assumed to
have any old sphere and arete rating he needs, not to mention any
convenient background like library, avatar, and sanctum.
People, mages *do* get built on a limited allotment of points, just
like anybody else. If a beginning mage has forces three and prime
two, then he hasn't got ratings in *anything* else unless he spent
freebies (and they don't go very far buying spheres).
>What you want is for mages to be weakened so they're on par with the
>other supernaturals. Too bad. If you think mages are too powerful
>for your vampire, then ask your ST not to throw them at you.
>Mage in itself is balanced. If you're playing a crossover game, you
>should expect that there will be ways in which the games don't mesh
>flawlessly. The White Wolf people know this, which is why they
>haven't put out a book of crossover rules. Chaos Factor is as close
>as they've come, and that, you may notice, was quite a while ago.
It wasn't very good, either. Bleah.
>>Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
>>In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
>>supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
>>mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
>>experience.
>
>Why? Mages manipulate the stuff of reality itself. Offing a
>supernatural should be (and typically is) child's play.
Don't agree, but it's a moot point. The outcome of any given conflict
is going to depend on everything from simple luck to firepower to
ingenuity.
_________________________
Sauron
Sau...@cmq.com
________________________
Clemens Schmitz
LenaFalk wrote:
> >> You can tell my ability at smiley's isnt exactly world class... *<:)
> >
> >Yes, but this is USENET. Soon dozens of others will join in the fun and
> >produce better results than just the two of us c]B-) (Man in Black
> >Smiley)
>
> Naah. c[8-| is better for Men in Black.
Yes, a Non-Smiley fits them much better. My bad, should have thought of
that.
> >> Kris Aspinall
> >
> >Clemens
>
> Lena
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 27 Nov 1997 01:10:52 GMT, jbr...@aol.com (JBRocky) wrote:
>>>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>>>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>>>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>>
>>And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
>>of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
>>should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
>>vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this?
>
>Vampire folklore also says vamps are repelled by cross and running water, but
>not in the game.
Have you taken a look at the Merits and Flaws section lately?
Repelled by holy symbols and the inability to cross running water are
both Vampire flaws.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if you throw out the
vampiric folklore, V:tM is just Undead Superhero: the Twinking.
"Gee," the argument goes, "vampires have been around for thousands of
years, so why can't they have figured out how to manipulate time/enter
the Umbra/travel at superluminal speeds/stop the earth's rotation/put
out the sun?"
> As for Mage folklore they're all supossed to be gray breads
>like Gandolf. Nothing is said about Technomancers.
Depends on the literature you read, now doesn't it? Roger Zelazny's
Shadowjack is obviously a Forces mage, but he's not bearded, nor is he
old. And Technomancers do have a folklore around them; do you think
they were just created out of whole cloth? Wrongo. VAs come from
uberhacker mythology (and as far as I'm concerned, have the weakest
paradigm), Sons of Ether come from superhero comics, Frankenstein, and
every mad scientist movie/novel/game ever written. The Technocracy is
taken from conspiracy theories. Men in Black are an old idea. I
first read about them in the late seventies in this book of goofy
Forteana I read in 6th grade. They're part of American mythology, and
it makes sense to put them in the mage game.
>>And all it takes is Matter 3 Life 3 to alter the pattern of the
>>vampire in such a way as to remove that nasty Fortitude. Makes them
>>all soft and malleable. Always a good first step when confronting
>>those rude Gangrel and arrogant Ventrue...
>>
>
>Bull#@%& It takes far more than what any Mage can do to eliminate a disclipine.
> Why? Because a Mage has no clue as to how they work. Also a disclipine is
>far more than just Matter 3 and Life 3.
Of course you can take away Fortitude with Matter 3 and Life 3. If
you really want to be picky, it MIGHT also take Prime 3. But mages
can transform things. Mages can transform vampires. Really vulgar
mages can alter a vampire's pattern to turn it into a lawnchair.
Sneaky, coincidental mages can alter a vampire's pattern subtly so as
to make them soft and weak. It's perfectly sensible, and doesn't
cause a problem with Paradox.
K.
dbac...@pppmsm.net.uokhsc.edu
In article <88055002...@air.adept.co.za>,
"Edmond du Money" <edmond...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
> Goodday I would like to state my personal intepretation of theWoD games, or
> more correctly - Mage: The Ascension.
Well, I can't say you don't see things as you outline below, but I can say
that you seem to be working with some false information.
>
> Mages are TOO POWERFUL. They can counter any other magic ability even other
> real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
> magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
Even if mages could do what you claim--and they can't--you'd have to look
at more than just the ability (such as its ease, liklihook of success,
etc.) to make a fair assessment as to what is balanced and what isn't.
Still, let's get to the business of deconstruction:
I. Mages -=* MAY NOT *=- counter other supernatural's abilities outside
them being used on the mage in question. If a vampire uses Dread Gaze
on a person standing next to a mage, the mage has no ability to apply
countermagick.
II. In order to use countermagick as a defense, the mage must have
training in the appropriate Sphere(s). For the life of me, I have no
understanding of why people seem to think that every mage in creation
has training in the Sphere of Mind, let alone every Sphere necessary to
counter every direct effect a vampire can generate.
III. Countermagick uses Arete, which for starting mages is no higher
than 3. In a contest between mage and vampire, pitting Arete
versus Attribute+Ability, who gets to roll more dice? In theory,
even a neonate has access to 10 dice, whereas only the most
powerful of mages is going to have more than 5.
> Maybe true magic should be limmited to only 3 dots for neonates,
Uh, I hope you mean newly awakened mages, for whom it is limited to 3
in any event by M:tA 2nd ed. Or were you proposing to make vampires into
mages?
> Quintessence made more scares and Arete and Magic being made more expensive.
The rarity of quintessence is a function of the ST. In my years of
running Mage, it has never been in great supply. If some STs feel a need
to give it out like candy, consider, some STs also allow Diablerie to
occur casually with no ramifications. Both games are subject to abuse.
Arete costs more to raise than any other trait in the World of Darkness,
and unlike Disciplines, you don't get anything out of it other than more
dice to roll for the Spheres you possess. An Arete 3 mage with a Sphere
at rank 3 has to spend 36 experience (24 for Arete, 12 for the Sphere) to
raise the Sphere in question to rank 4. Notice, they are still rolling
only 4 dice for their effects. Not only that, but they are required to
generate a certain number of successes to achieve a given effect, or they
get nothing at all.
So, exactly how would you make things harder, and why?
> In other words by the time a mage has enough power to destroy other
> supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
> mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
> experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
> penaties etc.
No newly awakened mage should be able to casually dispatch an elder
vampire. To allow such is to overplay the mage and massively underplay
the vampire.
Why should there be aging penalties? What is it about age that makes
performing magick harder? Vladimir Horowitz somehow managed to play
masteful piano at age 80. Chess champions don't become less skillful as
they age. Why should mages lose their touch?
>
> Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
> magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
> Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
Power versus power is inherent. If a mage uses Time to slow a vampire to
half speed and the Vampire has Celerity 1, then effectively the vampire
still gets to act at normal rate--though he will fall slower from his
personal perspective, and percieve the world to be out of synch by half.
> Being supernatural maybe the diff should be raised for any magic used
> against them.
I'm game. And in the interest of balance, mages get the same in return,
right?
> Fortitude+stamina for example can be used to soak any aggrevated damage from
> magic and stamina or stamina + fortitude be used to soak any damage.
> Fortitude on its own can be used to counter any magic effect that may be
> used to cause damage
This is already the case.
>
> Waiting for your reply
> Edmond du Money
> INQ:HCI & Voivode:Tzimisce & Member of Earth by Night
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/4052/
> Tell them I send you.
Donald
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
sv...@ll.mit.edu
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
> "Gee," the argument goes, "vampires have been around for thousands of
> years, so why can't they have figured out how to manipulate time/enter
> the Umbra/travel at superluminal speeds/stop the earth's rotation/put
> out the sun?"
Here Sven greedily clutches his copy of _Masters of the State_,
bookmarked to 'Tchernabog,' and starts counting XP greedily.... ;)
(Let's see, that's exactly... err... 175 xp and eight well-sequenced
Diableries. Either that or Golconda. Hmm.)
-- S. Skoog
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, I can't just leave off on something
like this without commenting on-topic:
> VAs come from uberhacker mythology (and as far as I'm concerned,
> have the weakest paradigm)...
There's a real-world/World-of-Darkness schism to be considered here.
I believe, and agree with, the above statement, insofar as it applies
to state-of-the-art 199X American and Japanese computer technology;
given our world, our computers, and our feasible scientific capacities,
the Virtual Adepts are woefully underpowered. Their 'real-world'
effects consist of tired variations of the 'I hack the secure system
(which may or may not have external data connections) to give me/do for
me the following things' and/or 'I zap the bad guy using a freak power
surge from that outlet' (which is really more like an Etherite effect,
if you ask me).
The Technocratic World of Darkness, however, has always seemed to
stretch a wee bit beyond the pale -- secretly-funded rapid-response
special forces teams operate alongside self-aware AI prototypes,
clandestine cloning experiments, real-time/real-space VR/Internet
interfaces, and so on and so forth. (Whether this is intentional, or
because of faulty author research, I wouldn't presume to opine.)
In _this_ glitzy-spiffy nouveau-tech AT&T-ized 'You Will' world, I think
the Adepts come into a somewhat diversified potential -- much as I
dislike the comparisons, roles more like their counterparts in
_Shadowrun_ or _Cyberpunk_ -- where a skilled Wirejock can electrocute
a rival, spontaneously start fires miles away, manipulate electrical/
mechanical systems by thought alone, and perhaps even project into
someone's cerebral cortex.
The choice is yours -- but I _think_ (cautiously here) this is the type
of world espoused by _Mage_ canon. If you want your VA players to stand
much of a chance, it's the general setting in which you ought to be
playing.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 27 Nov 1997 16:59:10 GMT, thea...@aol.com (The Athar) wrote:
>I know I'll hate myself in the morning for doing this..but..
>Oh, yeah..about a 18 year old mage killing an Elder or a Methuselah. I honestly
>doubt that. Okay, my mage has a two in Forces, two in Prime, one in Matter and
>one in Correspondence (Extra dot 'cause he's a Virtual Adept). Now *your* one
>hundred year old Cainite has a three in Potence, three in Celerity, four in
>Presence, two in Fortitude and two in Animalism. They roll initiative. Darn.
>The Elder goes first. Let's see..that's four actions because of Celerity, and
>automatic two successes to damage because of Potence. Hmmmmm..oh, yeah, almost
>forgot. He can spend Blood Points to raise his Strenght/Dexterity/Stamina as
>high as he wants, depending on how low his Generation is.
>
>Now it's the Mages turn. Two in Forces..um..okay, can't *create* fire to blast
>at him, and I don't have Life Magick to heal the damage the Cainite just did to
>me..so..um..I'll use Forces of two to create a static discharge around him!
>Okay, rolling my Arete of three for damage..darn..only two successes. The
>vampire now rolls Stamina. *Gasp* Three successes! He takes no damage, and he
>gets THREE more actions! Now who do you think is gonna win?
The VA knows enough science that he can use his two dots in forces to
make the evil old vampire completely frictionless--or at least trip a
lot. Sure he has Celerity, Potence and Fortutude up the wazoo, but it
doesn't do him a bit of good if he can't stand up. This approach
works for either VAs or Sons of Ether and can be made even easier if
the character happens to have an oilcan....
My point being: A mage may not be able to defeat/kill a vampire, but
they can (and should) be pretty crafty about protecting themselves
from danger.
K.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 10:58:07 -0500, sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
>kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
>
>> "Gee," the argument goes, "vampires have been around for thousands of
>> years, so why can't they have figured out how to manipulate time/enter
>> the Umbra/travel at superluminal speeds/stop the earth's rotation/put
>> out the sun?"
>
>Here Sven greedily clutches his copy of _Masters of the State_,
>bookmarked to 'Tchernabog,' and starts counting XP greedily.... ;)
Hey now, "to blot out" and "to put out" are not the same thing. The
first involves a spooky darkness for a day, the latter means the end
of the planet.
And that IS a kickass Discipline....
Aries should have that right around the time Marco gets Soul Pact....
K.
K.
Clemens Schmitz
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
(snip)
> And I do not want to stop the whole thread,
> just the one who says that Vampires must adhere to folklore. As you
> should know, White Wold drastically changed the common vision of
> Vampires.
You might as well say Anne Rice did or Bram Stoker did. They all
contributed to the vampire myth adn shaped the ambient folklore into
something new and exciting. If you throw it out you ditch quite a lot of
the appeal of the game.
> There is a lot of mage folklore different from pointy hat
> guys, but very little speaking of persons who alter the pattern of
> reality with the simple use of will.
Right, that one is a game-speak explantion for what they do. It still is
bound by the standard Mage folklore.
> For Vampires is the same.
> Remember that Murnau, in the movie "Nosferatu" gave the Vampire the
> tragic flaw he cannot bear sunlight. Should we adhere to ancient
> folklore? Ok, then vampires can perfectly walk outside in a sunny day.
If it works for you, fine. Everyone has different ideas about what
Vampires should be. For me it's walking only in the Night and drinking
blood, none of that medieval Pestilence metaphor stuff (except for those
Nossies that want it :)
Brian Thomas Habing
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com writes:
>>>>Other option is to have Supernatural creatures have the ability to counter
>>>>magic that are simmilar to their powers (for example maybe a vampire with
>>>>Celerity could counter the effects of time on himself and on his opponent).
>>>
>>>And just why should that be the case? With the Ubertwink Discipline
>>>of Temporis they probably could. But just for argument's sake, why
>>>should an undead thing be able to manipulate time? What element of
>>>vampire folklore suggests that they ought to be able to do this?
>>
>>Vampire folklore also says vamps are repelled by cross and running water, but
>>not in the game.
>Have you taken a look at the Merits and Flaws section lately?
>Repelled by holy symbols and the inability to cross running water are
>both Vampire flaws.
>I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if you throw out the
>vampiric folklore, V:tM is just Undead Superhero: the Twinking.
>"Gee," the argument goes, "vampires have been around for thousands of
>years, so why can't they have figured out how to manipulate time/enter
>the Umbra/travel at superluminal speeds/stop the earth's rotation/put
>out the sun?"
Uhm, I ignore folklore liberally and at will and have yet to see a
vampire game turn into undead superheroes...
... have however heard the view of plenty of Mage players who might
as well be playing Champions though....
---Brian
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Brian Thomas Habing wrote:
> Uhm, I ignore folklore liberally and at will and have yet to see a
> vampire game turn into undead superheroes...
>
> ... have however heard the view of plenty of Mage players who might
> as well be playing Champions though....
Yow!
'A touch, a touch, I do confess it.'
(_Hamlet_)
-- Sven
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Clemens Schmitz
<csch...@geo.uni-jena.de> abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>You might as well say Anne Rice did or Bram Stoker did. They all
>contributed to the vampire myth adn shaped the ambient folklore into
>something new and exciting. If you throw it out you ditch quite a lot of
>the appeal of the game.
Well, then we must decide what is "folklore" or not. In the next ten
years White Wolf stuff could be remembered as new folklore, so Time
mastering, and other new vampiric powers will be quite normal...
>Right, that one is a game-speak explantion for what they do. It still is
>bound by the standard Mage folklore.
Ok, but remember that it is impossible to know how many strange powers
could be developed by creatures who exist since millennia. Creatures
eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
aren't discovered. Vampires are supernatural creatures. Given the
necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
power, don't you think? There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
time if Mages can. They will probably accomplish the feat in a totally
different way, but being both Awakened creatures (the Mage and the
Vampire) they have the same possibilities. The Awakening does not make
the creature more "intelligent", simply more aware of how things
really work. Maybe the Mage will master Time (not the "Sphere", I mean
time itself) in a more easy way, then the Vampire, but there is no
reason that says a Vampire cannot find how to master it.
>If it works for you, fine. Everyone has different ideas about what
>Vampires should be. For me it's walking only in the Night and drinking
>blood, none of that medieval Pestilence metaphor stuff (except for those
>Nossies that want it :)
Ok, then everyone can handle the Vampire as liked, but I do not like
the "please, adhere to folklore" stuff... After all, the spreading of
false informations about flaws and powers could be part of the
Masquerade, disorienting the common people...
Regards,
Marc17
The Athar wrote:
>
> I know I'll hate myself in the morning for doing this..but..
>
> >real magic, but other creatures cannot use their powers to counter true
> >magic. I this acceptible for game balance?
> >supernatural creatures he will have been playing for a long time so no more
> >mages of age 18 or 25 killing creatures with 100 or even 1000 of years of
> >experience. Seeing that mages are mortal aswell thy would suffer aging
> >penaties etc.
>
> spirits, or Technocracy agents tracking him down and killing him for being a
> Reality Deviant? Don't think so. I know that if I had to roll for Paradox
> everytime one of my player's vampire characters used Fortitude or Celerity,
> they'd be in the *biggest* Paradox Realm ever created right now. How about
> Werewolves? Whenever an Ahroun uses Razor Claws, does he need to worry about
> Paradox Flaws? Nope, nope, nope.
>
> Oh, yeah..about a 18 year old mage killing an Elder or a Methuselah. I honestly
> doubt that.
<snip>
> Mage: The Ascension 2nd Edition and learn the rules. Thanks.
>
> - Brant
More likely, the Methusalah uses Dominate 6, the Mage is unable to
attack or probobly has burnt up some will power, the Methusalah then
uses Presence 5 or 6 for Magesty or Love or something like that and
the Mage either is in the thrall of the vampire, unable to attack, or
burns more willpower, then if the Methusalah manages to get his mouth
open and use that Manipulation 7 and Fast Talk 5 (convincing enemies
to become allies) and the poor sap will probobly believe whatever the
Methusalah says which will sound convincing to begin with. After diner
and a longer talk, it will all be revealed to the Mage that he and the
Methusalh have the same enemies and need each others help. Of course
this is has all been prepared due to the Methusalahs high Auspex
informing him of the danger coming.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:07:40 GMT,
YOU.WILL.NEVER.SPAM.ME#gio...@progetto3000.it (Giorgio Anselmi)
wrote:
>Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Clemens Schmitz
><csch...@geo.uni-jena.de> abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>
>>You might as well say Anne Rice did or Bram Stoker did. They all
>>contributed to the vampire myth adn shaped the ambient folklore into
>>something new and exciting. If you throw it out you ditch quite a lot of
>>the appeal of the game.
>Ok, but remember that it is impossible to know how many strange powers
>could be developed by creatures who exist since millennia.
This line of argument is really starting to piss me off. Depending on
how big a twink you are, you could just say, "Of course vampires can
learn how not to need blood, they've had CENTURIES to think about it."
or "Of course vampires can go out in broad daylight, they've had
MILLENNIA to work on it." or "Of course vampires can use Sphere
magick, they've had MILLENNIA to think about it."
BULLSHIT.
They're vampires. They're not mages, werewolves, fairies, wraiths,
mummies, deities or demigods. They're vampires, and as such they have
to work within certain limitations. Being alive for MILLENNIA doesn't
mean shit if you simply don't have the potential to do something.
Outside of a few Abominations, vampires cannot use Gifts. Why?
They've had MILLENNIA to learn how. Because they can't, ya dumb fuck,
they're not werewolves, they're vampires. They have a certain finite
set of abilities allowed to them by their blood and by the fraction of
Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not equal
omnipotence.
Vampires spend half their unlives sleeping. They spend a large
portion of their waking time feeding. They spend a lot of time
staying alive, doing favors for more powerful vampires, fleeing from
powerful enemies, hunting down less powerful enemies, avoiding
hunters, avoiding Garou, and avoiding the myriad other enemies they
make by parasitizing the living. They're not research fellows
thinking up ways to mimic Sphere magick (which most of them know
nothing about, with the exception of the original Tremere and
Nagaraja) or other beyond the pale abilities that twink players would
like them to have. Period.
>Creatures
>eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
>aren't discovered. Vampires are supernatural creatures.
They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
DEvolve.
> Given the
>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>power, don't you think?
No.
>There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
>time if Mages can.
How about this: mages are mages and vampires aren't. Vampires simply
don't have the potential to effect things on that large a scale. It
doesn't matter how long a vampire thinks about it, she'll never make
five gallons of water fit into a teaspoon. Not even CAINE is
omnipotent.
> They will probably accomplish the feat in a totally
>different way, but being both Awakened creatures (the Mage and the
>Vampire) they have the same possibilities.
No, they don't.
>The Awakening does not make
>the creature more "intelligent", simply more aware of how things
>really work. Maybe the Mage will master Time (not the "Sphere", I mean
>time itself) in a more easy way, then the Vampire, but there is no
>reason that says a Vampire cannot find how to master it.
Again: longevity is not omnipotence.
>>If it works for you, fine. Everyone has different ideas about what
>>Vampires should be. For me it's walking only in the Night and drinking
>>blood, none of that medieval Pestilence metaphor stuff (except for those
>>Nossies that want it :)
>
>Ok, then everyone can handle the Vampire as liked, but I do not like
>the "please, adhere to folklore" stuff... After all, the spreading of
>false informations about flaws and powers could be part of the
>Masquerade, disorienting the common people...
Whatever.
You're obviously addicted to the idea that, since they've been around
for MILLENNIA, vampires can do anything. I think it's bullshit, and I
think Mark Rein*Hagen would find it bullshit; that's why all the
original Disciplines mimiced the traditional folkloric abilities of
vampires.
If you want to play Undead Superhero: the Twinking, have a good time.
I'm sure you'll find a bunch of folks who want to play Abominations
and Changeling mummies with True Faith to play with you.
K.
B.H.
Ian Turner wrote:
>
> sauron wrote:
> > *shrug* Don't see the need, myself. After about fifty billion "my
> > mage can beat up your vampire" posts, about the only thing that I'm
> > really convinced of is that somone making that argument is, more
> often
> > than not, going to lack even the most basic knowledge of the mage
> > rules, and will almost certainly fail to read the section on
> vampires
> > in the mage rulebook, which is odd since it's so important to their
> > argument.
>
> Mind
> 2 should make a Mage immune to any level of Dominate, Presence or
> Obfuscate and suddenly this amazing shitstorm blows up and I find
> myself
> disliking the people on BOTH sides.
>
> "Mages reshpe and control Reality itself. Nyah!"
> "Vampires are cursed by GOD who made your dinky reality. Nyah-nyah!"
> "My dick is bigger."
> "Mine has ribs for extra pleasure."
>
> Yeesh
>
> Ian T
LOL Ian. And you're damn right, that's what this is turning into.
Sheesh, can't we all just pounce rabidly on stupid NewsCasters who do
little or no research on what they report on instead!?
--
Brian A. H.
"Luke: I'm not afraid!
Yoda: Sure... You will be.... You will be."
A young Luke Skywalker speaking to Yoda about the Spice Girls.
Brian Thomas Habing
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com writes:
>This line of argument is really starting to piss me off. Depending on
>how big a twink you are, you could just say, "Of course vampires can
>learn how not to need blood, they've had CENTURIES to think about it."
>or "Of course vampires can go out in broad daylight, they've had
>MILLENNIA to work on it." or "Of course vampires can use Sphere
>magick, they've had MILLENNIA to think about it."
>BULLSHIT.
Nice mature way to respond to the arguements I must admit!
>They're vampires. They're not mages, werewolves, fairies, wraiths,
>mummies, deities or demigods. They're vampires, and as such they have
>to work within certain limitations. Being alive for MILLENNIA doesn't
>mean shit if you simply don't have the potential to do something.
>Outside of a few Abominations, vampires cannot use Gifts. Why?
>They've had MILLENNIA to learn how. Because they can't, ya dumb fuck,
>they're not werewolves, they're vampires. They have a certain finite
>set of abilities allowed to them by their blood and by the fraction of
>Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not equal
>omnipotence.
No one said it did, but Thaumaturgy is pretty open ended unless I misread
something.
>Vampires spend half their unlives sleeping. They spend a large
>portion of their waking time feeding. They spend a lot of time
>staying alive, doing favors for more powerful vampires, fleeing from
>powerful enemies, hunting down less powerful enemies, avoiding
>hunters, avoiding Garou, and avoiding the myriad other enemies they
>make by parasitizing the living. They're not research fellows
>thinking up ways to mimic Sphere magick (which most of them know
>nothing about, with the exception of the original Tremere and
>Nagaraja) or other beyond the pale abilities that twink players would
>like them to have. Period.
Uhm, don't most things, supernatural included, spend half their times
sleeping? Don't Garou and Mages have to spend time doing things besides
research too?
I don't think the argument is that Vampires are totally invincible,
just that they certainly aren't push overs compared to Mages (at least
the old ones anyway), and that it's blatantly obvious that WW intends
Antedeluvians to be the equivalent of the Oracles and other big huge
things that they don't bother to give stats too.
>>There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
>>time if Mages can.
>How about this: mages are mages and vampires aren't. Vampires simply
>don't have the potential to effect things on that large a scale. It
>doesn't matter how long a vampire thinks about it, she'll never make
>five gallons of water fit into a teaspoon. Not even CAINE is
>omnipotent.
Why isn't there some static ritual that could put five gallons of water
into a teaspoon.
As far as affecting things on a large scale, some of the high level
presence affects seem to do that, and the fact that many of the gods of
legend were kindred would also seem to contradict that.
>You're obviously addicted to the idea that, since they've been around
>for MILLENNIA, vampires can do anything. I think it's bullshit, and I
>think Mark Rein*Hagen would find it bullshit; that's why all the
>original Disciplines mimiced the traditional folkloric abilities of
>vampires.
>If you want to play Undead Superhero: the Twinking, have a good time.
>I'm sure you'll find a bunch of folks who want to play Abominations
>and Changeling mummies with True Faith to play with you.
Even though it would suck as a game, I would like it a heck of a lot more
than playing a game that is completely bound up by what's written down
in folklore, or playing a game set in a WoD where the mages are the end
all and be all of power, and where the Antedeluvians aren't really powerful
enough to scare anyone but the higher gen vamps.
---Brian Habing
hab...@stat.uicu.edu
Brian Thomas Habing
>>They have a certain finite
>>set of abilities allowed to them by their blood and by the fraction of
>>Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not equal
>>omnipotence.
>Ok, but if you admit that they have an active Avatar, why shouldn't
>they be able to learn Spheres?
I don't think he's saying that they have an active Avatar in the sense
of Mages, and the rules are very clear that they can't learn spheres.
Brian Habing
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric
Robert Sylwester) abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>Well, no matter how long you would live, you won't be able to flap your
>arms and fly.
We're not speaking to fly flapping arms. Neither Mages can do this. To
fly they must use Magick, not simply flap their arms. And maybe this
is the same for Vampires... After all their soul is Awakened, all they
have to do is to understand the working of Magick, and it is difficult
to me to believe that the are not able to UNDERSTAND it. Are humans
more intelligent than Vampires?
>Now, they are supernatural creatures, so where you draw that line between
>what they can and can't develop is up to you, but I think it's a perfectly
>reasonable stance to say that as vampires there are abilities they are
>unable to develop. If for no other reason then as inheritors of a Curse
>From God, their existences may have more than just the obvious downsides.
This is a more reasonable answer. Much more reasonable than "NO, THEY
CAN'T 'CAUSE THEY ARE VAMPIRES AND SO THEY CAN'T".
>Gifts are taught by spirits. If a spirit won't teach you, you can't learn
>one. This isn't a self-study program; it's another supernatural creature
>transferring some of their power to you. At least, that's the premise
>behind the werewolf system.
Ok, agreed. But then, should a *mad* spirit decide to teach a Gift to
a Vampire, the Vampire could learn and use it, I suppose. I know it is
improbabile (if not impossible), I am speaking in game mechanics.
>Perhaps because they have *Caine's* avatar. Maybe if Caine never learned
>it, neither can they....or maybe if God doesn't *want* Caine's Childe to
>learn true magick, they can't.
Seems a good explanation, still doens't convice me. If God negated
Magick to Vampires, why did He allowed such powerful capacities like
Disciplines?
>In any event, it seems that most of the arguments on both sides is just
>composed of ranting and raving. IMO, the whole question is one of
>personal preferece of the ST, and not liable to come up at all most of the
>time- after all, how many people actively game 2nd, 3rd, or 4th-gen
>vampires?
Not many, I think... And I hope the same is for Oracles...
Regards,
Giorgio
Brian Thomas Habing
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) writes:
>Well, no matter how long you would live, you won't be able to flap your
>arms and fly.
>So the poster does have a point; there may be some things that vampires
>Just. Can't. Do. Like there are things humans just can't do.
>Now, they are supernatural creatures, so where you draw that line between
>what they can and can't develop is up to you, but I think it's a perfectly
>reasonable stance to say that as vampires there are abilities they are
>unable to develop. If for no other reason then as inheritors of a Curse
>From God, their existences may have more than just the obvious downsides.
But there seems little reason that Thaumaturgy can't be found through
research to duplicate most forms of hedge magic anyway (which is a huge
amount of possible abilities according to 'Sorcerors' anyway).
>In any event, it seems that most of the arguments on both sides is just
>composed of ranting and raving. IMO, the whole question is one of
>personal preferece of the ST, and not liable to come up at all most of the
>time- after all, how many people actively game 2nd, 3rd, or 4th-gen
>vampires?
Must confess I have one 4th gen Gangrel NPC who periodically pops up...
but never for long...
---Brian
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu
JBRocky
Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:07:40 GMT,
>YOU.WILL.NEVER.SPAM.ME#gio...@progetto3000.it (Giorgio Anselmi)
>wrote:
>
>>Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Clemens Schmitz
>><csch...@geo.uni-jena.de> abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>>
>>>You might as well say Anne Rice did or Bram Stoker did. They all
>>>contributed to the vampire myth adn shaped the ambient folklore into
>>>something new and exciting. If you throw it out you ditch quite a lot of
>>>the appeal of the game.
>
>>Ok, but remember that it is impossible to know how many strange powers
>>could be developed by creatures who exist since millennia.
>
>This line of argument is really starting to piss me off. Depending on
>how big a twink you are, you could just say, "Of course vampires can
>learn how not to need blood, they've had CENTURIES to think about it."
>or "Of course vampires can go out in broad daylight, they've had
>MILLENNIA to work on it." or "Of course vampires can use Sphere
>magick, they've had MILLENNIA to think about it."
>
>BULLSHIT.
WRONG some Vamps have learned to need less blood its called Golconda and the
Children of Osirus developed the discipline of Bardo, which at higher levels
can allow a Vamp to go into the sunlight.
>
>They're vampires. They're not mages, werewolves, fairies, wraiths,
>mummies, deities or demigods. They're vampires, and as such they have
>to work within certain limitations. Being alive for MILLENNIA doesn't
>mean shit if you simply don't have the potential to do something.
>Outside of a few Abominations, vampires cannot use Gifts. Why?
>They've had MILLENNIA to learn how. Because they can't, ya dumb fuck,
>they're not werewolves, they're vampires. They have a certain finite
>set of abilities allowed to them by their blood and by the fraction of
>Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not equal
>omnipotence.
>Vampires spend half their unlives sleeping. They spend a large
>portion of their waking time feeding. They spend a lot of time
>staying alive, doing favors for more powerful vampires, fleeing from
>powerful enemies, hunting down less powerful enemies, avoiding
>hunters, avoiding Garou, and avoiding the myriad other enemies they
>make by parasitizing the living. They're not research fellows
>thinking up ways to mimic Sphere magick (which most of them know
>nothing about, with the exception of the original Tremere and
>Nagaraja) or other beyond the pale abilities that twink players would
>like them to have. Period.
>
Let me see I spend alot of time sleeping, eating, and a bunch of other booring
stuff but Ilearn things.
>>Creatures
>>eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
>>aren't discovered. Vampires are supernatural creatures.
>
>They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
>vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
>evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
>DEvolve.
>
So this is why there are different bloodlines. Basicly they evolved.
>> Given the
>>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>>power, don't you think?
>
>No.
>
In clanbook Tremere it states there an infinate number of paths, why not
disciplines.
>>There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
>>time if Mages can.
>
>How about this: mages are mages and vampires aren't. Vampires simply
>don't have the potential to effect things on that large a scale. It
>doesn't matter how long a vampire thinks about it, she'll never make
>five gallons of water fit into a teaspoon. Not even CAINE is
>omnipotent.
>
Vampires are Vampires and mages aren't so bite me.
>> They will probably accomplish the feat in a totally
>>different way, but being both Awakened creatures (the Mage and the
>>Vampire) they have the same possibilities.
>
>No, they don't.
>
Why not because it would hurt your ego?
>>The Awakening does not make
>>the creature more "intelligent", simply more aware of how things
>>really work. Maybe the Mage will master Time (not the "Sphere", I mean
>>time itself) in a more easy way, then the Vampire, but there is no
>>reason that says a Vampire cannot find how to master it.
>
>Again: longevity is not omnipotence.
>
No but but it helps.
>>>If it works for you, fine. Everyone has different ideas about what
>>>Vampires should be. For me it's walking only in the Night and drinking
>>>blood, none of that medieval Pestilence metaphor stuff (except for those
>>>Nossies that want it :)
>>
>>Ok, then everyone can handle the Vampire as liked, but I do not like
>>the "please, adhere to folklore" stuff... After all, the spreading of
>>false informations about flaws and powers could be part of the
>>Masquerade, disorienting the common people...
>
>Whatever.
>
>You're obviously addicted to the idea that, since they've been around
>for MILLENNIA, vampires can do anything. I think it's bullshit, and I
>think Mark Rein*Hagen would find it bullshit; that's why all the
>original Disciplines mimiced the traditional folkloric abilities of
>vampires.
>If you want to play Undead Superhero: the Twinking, have a good time.
>I'm sure you'll find a bunch of folks who want to play Abominations
>and Changeling mummies with True Faith to play with you.
>
>
Nah just play in your mage campaign would munchie enough. And if you know Mark
R*H enough to know how he will react you must think your a Mage.
Now I got a question for you. What makes you think Mages are omnipotent?
K.
>
>
>
>
P.S. theis is a prime example of an Arroagant Mage player, AKA and asshole.
Ian Turner
Ian Turner
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
> I've said this before, and I'll say it again: if you throw out the
> vampiric folklore, V:tM is just Undead Superhero: the Twinking.
> "Gee," the argument goes, "vampires have been around for thousands of
> years, so why can't they have figured out how to manipulate time/enter
> the Umbra/travel at superluminal speeds/stop the earth's rotation/put
> out the sun?"
I see four places a Vampire / Discipline can come from and be 'cool' in
my view.
1) Your standard Mytho-historical stuff. Vrykolas, penangalen, gaki,
nosferatu, etc.
2) Myths and historical bits that aren't specifically vampiric but would
LOOK kewl as Vampires. Sirens, Jack the Ripper, the Bloofer Lady,
Medusa.
3) Modern depictions that are in the public view anyway and not too
silly... Anne Rice Vampires, Lost Boys, Fleshcrafting Necroscopers,
etc.
and 4) Things that logically derive from the Kindred nature and history
as set down from the above three. Thus, if we make a Brujah Clan and
have one of its 4th Gens eat its Founder, the other kids of said founder
could reasonably be expected to take their toys and go play somewhere
else... AND if a Kindred is unaging, reverts to time of death overday,
etc, AND is a scholar to boot, it follows that one or more might explore
the Kindred's unique relationship with Time, even to the point of
creating the super speed of Celerity and perhaps other powers as well.
As an aside I do NOT like Temporis (or the True Brujah) as written and
think that they could use rewriting severely (with Temporis being more
like Mortis or Thanatosis, affecting the Kindred's own PERSONAL
relationship with time, not being able to slow or speed up external
events as in the twinky current writeup).
> > As for Mage folklore they're all supossed to be gray breads
> >like Gandolf. Nothing is said about Technomancers.
>
> Depends on the literature you read, now doesn't it? Roger Zelazny's
> Shadowjack is obviously a Forces mage, but he's not bearded, nor is he
> old. And Technomancers do have a folklore around them; do you think
> they were just created out of whole cloth? Wrongo. VAs come from
> uberhacker mythology (and as far as I'm concerned, have the weakest
> paradigm), Sons of Ether come from superhero comics, Frankenstein, and
> every mad scientist movie/novel/game ever written. The Technocracy is
> taken from conspiracy theories. Men in Black are an old idea. I
> first read about them in the late seventies in this book of goofy
> Forteana I read in 6th grade. They're part of American mythology, and
> it makes sense to put them in the mage game.
Certainly the Dreamspeakers, Verbena, Cult of Ecstasy, Celestial Chorus,
Akashic Brothers and Order of Hermes represent far more 'real' groups of
Shamans, Wiccans, Castenadists, Kabbalists, Fakirs and Rosicrucians
(just to name SOME of the RL correlations!) than any Son of Ether or Man
In Black, so I think Mage did a pretty good idea, although the
Euthanatos really seem to have been pulled out of someones butt... I
seem to have missed their Paradigm in RL which is probably a Good Thing!
Ian T
Clemens Schmitz
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
>
> Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Clemens Schmitz
> <csch...@geo.uni-jena.de> abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>
> >You might as well say Anne Rice did or Bram Stoker did. They all
> >contributed to the vampire myth adn shaped the ambient folklore into
> >something new and exciting. If you throw it out you ditch quite a lot of
> >the appeal of the game.
>
> years White Wolf stuff could be remembered as new folklore, so Time
> mastering, and other new vampiric powers will be quite normal...
Well, perhaps they will, but I don't think they will. Temporis and some
of the other Twink Disciplines are to controversial even in this group
to be introduced to the general public :)
Most stuff created by White Wolf fits well into the standard Vampire
Myth and appears in the novels, TV shows, you name it. The exotic stuff
is hidden somewhere in much-debated supplements, so it will probably not
make it into folklore.
(snip my stuff)
> Ok, but remember that it is impossible to know how many strange powers
> could be developed by creatures who exist since millennia. Creatures
> eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
> aren't discovered.
I'm not quite sure Vampires evolve. Do you believe in the Malkavian '100
Disciplines in the Book of Nod'?, probably the new Bloodlines are
rediscovering the Disciplines Caine had and there is a limit to what
vampired can do. Or are you referring to the opportunities form
Thaumaturgy? Quite a lot is possible to those skilled in Thaum and
creating new rituals.
> >If it works for you, fine. Everyone has different ideas about what
> >Vampires should be. For me it's walking only in the Night and drinking
> >blood, none of that medieval Pestilence metaphor stuff (except for those
> >Nossies that want it :)
>
> Ok, then everyone can handle the Vampire as liked, but I do not like
> the "please, adhere to folklore" stuff... After all, the spreading of
> false informations about flaws and powers could be part of the
> Masquerade, disorienting the common people...
Well I read soemwhere that the Camrilla does it on purpose to make their
job easier. It is simpler to kill a Hunter who tries to drive you away
using garlic... on the other hand, some Vampires are vulnerable to it :)
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 2 Dec 1997 01:37:37 GMT, jbr...@aol.com (JBRocky) wrote:
>Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
>>They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
>>vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
>>evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
>>DEvolve.
>>
>So this is why there are different bloodlines. Basicly they evolved.
No, they're devolving. Caine had ALL Disciplines. The second
generation had MOST of the Disciplines. The third Generation COULD
learn any of them, but had to actually study to learn the ones that
didn't come naturally. Vampires Embraced after the third generation
had only three Disciplines they could learn naturally, and they had to
study extensively to learn them, and the higher levels are extremely
difficult for them (I consider anything requiring the expenditure of
35 XP to be extremely difficult).
Notice that Dark Ages vampires start with 4 Disciplines while modern
Camarilla vampires start with 3. It's the degeneration effect in
action.
>>> Given the
>>>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>>>power, don't you think?
>In clanbook Tremere it states there an infinate number of paths, why not
>disciplines.
Clanbook Tremere is also a little biased, hello.
>Nah just play in your mage campaign would munchie enough. And if you know Mark
>R*H enough to know how he will react you must think your a Mage.
I didn't say anything about how M R*H would react. I said he wrote
V:TM the way he did to play up on the folkloric powers of vampires,
which people are now choosing to disregard entirely in order to give
their characters increasingly excessive and unvampirelike abilities.
> Now I got a question for you. What makes you think Mages are omnipotent?
At no point have I ever made that claim.
> P.S. theis is a prime example of an Arroagant Mage player, AKA and asshole.
P.S. This is a prime example of an orthographically challenged
individual, A.K.A. a simpleton.
K.
Murrant SH
One thing that puzzles me about these threads. Everyone seems to
be assuming that Trad. mages would be going around fighting vampires
and the other supernaturals.
Why? There are equally valid reasons for them to co-operate. And
there is precedent for it too. All the various forms of supernatural
seem to have some influence within Pentex. Now if these deranged
Black Spirals/Sabbat/Nephrandi can work together why not the others?
As an idea for you. A mage with Life 3 and Prime 2 can create simple
life forms. I seem to recall that this is defined as single cell or
invertebrate forms (insects etc). So what is to stop a Life mage
from creating blood for a vampire, better yet what is to stop one
from designing a symbiote that could be fed ordinary food and then
live in the vampire's stomach and secrete say one or two blood points
a day. Result is the vampire never has to hunt unless they have been
using lots of blood to power a discipline.
Of course a vampire would really have to trust the mage in order to go
along with this. But this is not impossible, it would just take time.
The more arrogant Cam Kindred might turn their noses up at such an idea,
but what about someone seeking Golconda? Do you think the Inconnu might
have some interest in such an idea.
All I'm saying is their should be more to interaction between the factions
than "I can kill you", and some people seem to have lost sight of that.
Maybe we haven't travelled quite as far from our AD&D hack 'n slay roots
as we'd thought.
--
Shaun Murrant. moo...@city.ac.uk
Wonders never cease, as long as you never cease to wonder.
Ullus Tempus, Ullus Scopus!
glenn
> > Thats why we dont fight vampires - we cant afford to, with the Ascension war
> >going on against the technocracy, and some Nephandri lurking around the
> >place.
>
> Presumptuous. "We don't just wipe away all vampires 'cause we're busy
> now"...
>
And with the power that us mages think we have at our disposal, we
*should* be presumptuous and arrogant, neh?
> Remember, if a Mage becomes a powerful creature, it's just a matter of
> study, exercise and practice.
> If a Vampire becomes a powerful creature he/she had to work the
> TRIPLE, to stand against the negative sides of his/her condition,
> striving not to become a mindless murderer, avoiding the Sun and fire,
> the sudden awakenings of The Beast. Being a Vampire it's not nice. You
> start with a lot of disadvantages. Mages don't.
>
Ummm... Mages don't have disadvantages? What about the Technocracy?
They often know everything about every little thing you do. Unless you
happen to have gained Arcane somewhere along the way. Nephandi?
Basically the demons at the threshold. Marauders? The Joker, the
Riddler, and the Penguin all hopped up on crack and LSD, and you don't
have your handy-dandy Batman Utility Belt(c). Paradox? You gotta hide
what you are trying to do on the off chance that some homeless person
comes around, and even then, you can get sucked into a nether-region if
you get interrupted, etc... I think those alone count as some decent
disadvantages... And there's more I could name...
Jack
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
>
> Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com abbia
> inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>
<snip verbal>
> >They're vampires. They're not mages, werewolves, fairies, wraiths,
> >mummies, deities or demigods. They're vampires, and as such they have
> >to work within certain limitations. Being alive for MILLENNIA doesn't
> >mean shit if you simply don't have the potential to do something.
This, ^, is a very important point, take note !
> Vampires do not care to learn Gifts. Most of them are useful in the
> wilderness, and in any case most of them have the Discipline
> equivalent.
As I said take note, a true vampire can not learn gifts.
This is not a matter for debate , this is a solid fact. It has also been
decreed by the people who wrote the game ( in Mummy and probably in the
Werewolf book & more than likly in a Mage book too somewhere near the
Dreamspeakers ).
Also over %70 of the gifts are non wilderness related, mostly they
revolve around combat, dominance & spirits.
> >They have a certain finite
> >set of abilities allowed to them by their blood and by the fraction of
> >Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not equal
> >omnipotence.
>
> Ok, but if you admit that they have an active Avatar, why shouldn't
> they be able to learn Spheres?
I will admit they have an active Avater, But I will say to you that one
common consencess believes that that avatar is bound, in a manner, to
the physical form of the vampire, this allows him to channel his blood
in manners that we commonly know as disiplines. It will not allow for
true magic due to the method in which it is bound.
The other reason is that mages have spheres and vampires have
disiplines, you can check up on this in both the books, under the
abilities section. In niether part is the other mentioned, go on, check!
<snip S"!7 on sleeping>
humanity, Magic & horizon relms can all negate that
<snip tat on feeding>
<snip tat on the life of a vampire>
> >They're not research fellows thinking up ways to mimic Sphere magick
> >(which most of them know nothing about, with the exception of the
> >original Tremere and >Nagaraja) or other beyond the pale abilities
> >that twink players would like them to have. Period.
>
> The fact that THEY DO NOT CARE or DO NOT KNOW does not mean that THEY
> CANNOT. Mostly, you're right, do not know, and those who know maybe do
> not care or do not have time to care. But when a Vampire achieves
> Golconda has far less problems to deal with. No frenzy, no
> rotschrek...
>
> >They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
> >vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
> >evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
> >DEvolve.
This last sentence is more important than you probably realise, just
look at what it does to a mage, stops them gaining arete. That and that
alone is ammo to prove the fact that a vampire is a static creature
likewise the point about them trying not to de-evole is in many way the
ery hinge of vampire and the idea behind the game.
> They're dead only biologically speaking. They can move, think, speak,
> kill and simple corpse are not very good at these things.
oh, so I realy do need only mattter then to turn them into a deckchair,
no... I don't think so.
> >How about this: mages are mages and vampires aren't. Vampires simply
> >don't have the potential to effect things on that large a scale.
>
> FALSE. High level Disciplines allow a Vampire to affect entire cities,
> entire countries. Of course, this is much easier for Mages, after all
> Magick is their field. Vampires may require higher level in a
> Discipline, but that's all.
But it's not sphere magic is it, no, it's specialised disiplines and the
power in question is specialised to the vamipre in question. And the
generation is another consideration you have to be at least 7th gen and
diablerie dosn't just fall of trees you know.
> >doesn't matter how long a vampire thinks about it, she'll never make
> >five gallons of water fit into a teaspoon. Not even CAINE is
> >omnipotent.
I will agree, he is not omnipotent, and as far as you two know he may
alive, dead, a ghost assended, or in hell, an answer has never been
given as to even his existence so no silly argument involving caine if
you please.
<snip 5 gallons of water >
> >You're obviously addicted to the idea that, since they've been around
> >for MILLENNIA, vampires can do anything.
>
> YEAH, YEAH, I'M ADDICTED, I WILL GO FRENZY IF I WON'T BE ABLE TO SAY
> IT AGAIN!
<snip>
> Maybe a half Garou/half Changeling who learned to use Magick but was
> Embrace is a good idea... Thanks! :-)
> Giorgio
now thats just uncalled for isnt it, thats just spite covered over with
a smiley
If you have a particular beef with mages or vampires being powerful give
me a concreate reason why, you know , real solid reason that will stand
up without little props, post it. I want to see it, and to see if it
hasn't been answersd already, by the comunal news group mind.
The original post didn't have a reason by the way (I mean the ORIGINAL
post)
--
Jack Rogers
All views expressed above are not those of my employer.
Fake E-mail address to deter unwanted mail.
My actual e-mail address may not be used under any circumstances
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che glenn <gbr...@mailhost.epix.net>
abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>Ummm... Mages don't have disadvantages? What about the Technocracy?
>They often know everything about every little thing you do. Unless you
>happen to have gained Arcane somewhere along the way. Nephandi?
>Basically the demons at the threshold. Marauders? The Joker, the
>Riddler, and the Penguin all hopped up on crack and LSD, and you don't
>have your handy-dandy Batman Utility Belt(c). Paradox? You gotta hide
>what you are trying to do on the off chance that some homeless person
>comes around, and even then, you can get sucked into a nether-region if
>you get interrupted, etc... I think those alone count as some decent
>disadvantages... And there's more I could name...
Well, I do not mean that Mages do not have disadvantages. Every enemy
you mentioned have the Vampire counterpart. We could ever mention
Werewolves, who seem to hate Vampires more than Mages.
Avoiding Paradox is just a matter of creativity. Use Static Magick and
the danger is halved. Vampires must avoid the Sun, which means that
they must spend HALF their lives in dark and possibly sealed places.
Mages are powerful not only in the mere use of firepower, but also
because they seem to be allowed to kill anyone without too much
remorse. Vampires can't. Humanity it's a bad burden to bear. Mages can
be more ruthless than Vampires. Being allowed to kill with more ease,
effectively make them more powerful, because they are more FREE.
Brian Thomas Habing
>Well, I do not mean that Mages do not have disadvantages. Every enemy
>you mentioned have the Vampire counterpart. We could ever mention
>Werewolves, who seem to hate Vampires more than Mages.
>Avoiding Paradox is just a matter of creativity. Use Static Magick and
>the danger is halved. Vampires must avoid the Sun, which means that
>they must spend HALF their lives in dark and possibly sealed places.
As has been pointed out, Mages need to sleep to...
>Mages are powerful not only in the mere use of firepower, but also
>because they seem to be allowed to kill anyone without too much
>remorse. Vampires can't. Humanity it's a bad burden to bear. Mages can
>be more ruthless than Vampires. Being allowed to kill with more ease,
>effectively make them more powerful, because they are more FREE.
Uhm, Mages aren't allowed to just run around
and off people without reprucussions just because the don't have humanity
and conscience stats... unless of course you treat roleplaying like
playing DOOM on the computer....
---Brian Habing
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu
David Johnston
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
>
> On 27 Nov 1997 16:59:10 GMT, thea...@aol.com (The Athar) wrote:
>
> >I know I'll hate myself in the morning for doing this..but..
>
> >one in Correspondence (Extra dot 'cause he's a Virtual Adept). Now *your* one
> >hundred year old Cainite has a three in Potence, three in Celerity, four in
> >Presence, two in Fortitude and two in Animalism. They roll initiative. Darn.
> >The Elder goes first. Let's see..that's four actions because of Celerity, and
> >automatic two successes to damage because of Potence. Hmmmmm..oh, yeah, almost
> >forgot. He can spend Blood Points to raise his Strenght/Dexterity/Stamina as
> >high as he wants, depending on how low his Generation is.
> >
> >Now it's the Mages turn. Two in Forces..um..okay, can't *create* fire to blast
> >at him, and I don't have Life Magick to heal the damage the Cainite just did to
> >me..so..um..I'll use Forces of two to create a static discharge around him!
> >Okay, rolling my Arete of three for damage..darn..only two successes. The
> >vampire now rolls Stamina. *Gasp* Three successes! He takes no damage, and he
> >gets THREE more actions! Now who do you think is gonna win?
>
> The VA knows enough science that he can use his two dots in forces to
> make the evil old vampire completely frictionless--or at least trip a
> lot. Sure he has Celerity, Potence and Fortutude up the wazoo, but it
Frictionless? Sounds more like Prime 4 Matter 2, or Matter 5, maybe
Forces 3 to generate a repulsive force between the target and all
matter. Mind you, with only two successes it's unlikely you'd inflict
anything except a dexterity penalty.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
Friction counts as a lesser force, easily playable with by a mage with
Forces 2.
K.
Dr. Volcano
(silence. a gust of wind. tree branches rustle as a long-sealed crypt
inscribed "Mage: The Sorcerers Crusade" creaks open. after a moment, a
long-haired dude in a biker jacket emerges, squints his eyes, cracks his
long-suffering vertebrae and speaks:)
Hey, guys!
I'm looking for the following folks:
Nik — A cat-like lady I danced with at DragonCon and roleplayed with at
GenCon '97.
Jenn Grant and her boyfriend (still?) who played the dragon in the
Sorcerers Crusade playtest at GenCon '96.
The long-suffering folks who withstood the MPD Verbena in the Sorcerers
Crusade playtest at DragonCon '97.
I want to get your full names and addresses for the playtester credits
of The Sorcerers Crusade. As testers, you're entitled to a copy of the
book (hopefully finished by May — it's running late right now).
Please send your responses to:
...along with a statement that would verify that you are who you claim
to be (to cut down on folks who would claim to be you and snag your copy
of the book). Just remind me of something that happened during the game
— something only those there would know.
If you know any of these folks, please pass the word along QUICKLY. I
need these names by the 16th of December, or they don't go in the book.
(the figure turns around and heads back into the darkness. the crypt
closes behind him. we hear a voice, muffled:)
I need a vacation.
Later!
— Phil Brucato, Mage Developer
(And no, I am *not* getting involved in the whole Mage vs. WoD thing.
Sorry.)
JBRocky
>>Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
>
>>>They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
>>>vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
>>>evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
>>>DEvolve.
>>>
>
>No, they're devolving. Caine had ALL Disciplines. The second
>generation had MOST of the Disciplines. The third Generation COULD
>learn any of them, but had to actually study to learn the ones that
>didn't come naturally. Vampires Embraced after the third generation
>had only three Disciplines they could learn naturally, and they had to
>study extensively to learn them, and the higher levels are extremely
>difficult for them (I consider anything requiring the expenditure of
>35 XP to be extremely difficult).
>Notice that Dark Ages vampires start with 4 Disciplines while modern
>Camarilla vampires start with 3. It's the degeneration effect in
>action.
>
First of all Vampiresociety is changing and therefore evolving. Not always for
the best but still evolving.
Since when did you meet Caine, the 2nd and the third Gen vampires and ask them
about their disciplines. Just because vamps arn't as powerfull as their sires
doesn't mean they are devolving. If theis was true Mages would be devolving
from the pure ones.
>>>> Given the
>>>>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>>>>power, don't you think?
>
>>In clanbook Tremere it states there an infinate number of paths, why not
>>disciplines.
>
>Clanbook Tremere is also a little biased, hello.
>
And SO ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>Nah just play in your mage campaign would munchie enough. And if you know
>Mark
>>R*H enough to know how he will react you must think your a Mage.
>
>I didn't say anything about how M R*H would react. I said he wrote
>V:TM the way he did to play up on the folkloric powers of vampires,
>which people are now choosing to disregard entirely in order to give
>their characters increasingly excessive and unvampirelike abilities.
>
Again your are saying why Mark R*H did something, did he personaly tell you
how he feels.
>> Now I got a question for you. What makes you think Mages are
>omnipotent?
>
>At no point have I ever made that claim.
>
I belive it was you who said Achmages are like demigods and Oracles are all
powerful. If not your arguments say the same thing.
>> P.S. theis is a prime example of an Arroagant Mage player, AKA and
>asshole.
>
>P.S. This is a prime example of an orthographically challenged
>individual, A.K.A. a simpleton.
>
>
Personaly I would say it is you who have no common sense.
Jeff R
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che hab...@neyman.stat.uiuc.edu (Brian
Thomas Habing) abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>As has been pointed out, Mages need to sleep to...
Yeah, but they do not die with their flesh horribly burned if someone
utterly open up the windows yelling "Wake Up!! Breakfast time!"
>Uhm, Mages aren't allowed to just run around
>and off people without reprucussions just because the don't have humanity
>and conscience stats... unless of course you treat roleplaying like
>playing DOOM on the computer....
Right, I do not treat roleplaying like Doom, but Vampires have clear
rules about it, Mages don't. I know Humanity can't be applied to
Mages, they haven't The Beast within them, ready to leap out, but it
could be invented something, like Avatar tainting for irractionally
evil actions. Or something else, this is of course, up to the ST.
What I mean is that looking at the rules, all Mages have to worry
about, for their actions, is to kill people without much noise. The
problem isn't the killing itself, it's the WAY to kill that is
important... Vulgar or Static...
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Jack <M...@home.com> abbia inciso le
seguenti affermazioni:
>I will admit they have an active Avater, But I will say to you that one
>common consencess believes that that avatar is bound, in a manner, to
>the physical form of the vampire, this allows him to channel his blood
>in manners that we commonly know as disiplines. It will not allow for
>true magic due to the method in which it is bound.
I accept this. Maybe they may learn the principles of Magick (after
all if they are intelligent they CAN understand) without being able to
work it. In other words, I know how FORCES works, too bad when I try
nothing happens...
>I will agree, he is not omnipotent, and as far as you two know he may
>alive, dead, a ghost assended, or in hell, an answer has never been
>given as to even his existence so no silly argument involving caine if
>you please.
I never talked about Caine. It was not my post. Caine is another
matter, we do not know anything about the Third Man, only that it is
not a great idea trying to kill him. It could be even possible, but
remember the anathema put on him.
Soran
David Johnston wrote:
> Frictionless? Sounds more like Prime 4 Matter 2, or Matter 5, maybe
> Forces 3 to generate a repulsive force between the target and all
> matter. Mind you, with only two successes it's unlikely you'd inflict
> anything except a dexterity penalty.
Not at all, friction (by whatever name your paradigm calls it) is a Force. So it
really was Forces 2 to remove most of the friction on the Vamp's feet. You're in no
way altering the Vampire, nor are you creating anything (hence, no need for Matter or
Prime). The nice Dexterity penalty should be horrendous, however. I'd say -4 dice on
two successes, perhaps -4 or -5 at three successes. Granted, removing ALL of the
friction ("Gee, he's a klutz! Oh, and is that motor oil on the floor?") should reduce
the Vamp to 0 dice (just don't get close enough to his claws!).
--
_________________________________________________________________________
http://www.primenet.com/~soran
"Ice cream makes machines work better, especially computers.
Spoon right in!"
_________________________________________________________________________
Soran
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
> They have a certain finite set of abilities allowed to them by their blood
> and by the fraction of Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not
> equal omnipotence.
Wait, isn't an Avatar supposed to get shredded upon the Embrace? I thought
that that's why Vampires cannot use True Magick, and have to therefore use the
_static_ magic granted them by their Disciplines. What they got from Caine
(and the kids) was a _curse_, not an Avatar (or fraction thereof).
> Vampires spend half their unlives sleeping. They spend a large
> portion of their waking time feeding. They spend a lot of time
> staying alive, doing favors for more powerful vampires, fleeing from
> powerful enemies, hunting down less powerful enemies, avoiding
> hunters, avoiding Garou, and avoiding the myriad other enemies they
> make by parasitizing the living. They're not research fellows
> thinking up ways to mimic Sphere magick (which most of them know
> nothing about, with the exception of the original Tremere and
> Nagaraja) or other beyond the pale abilities that twink players would
> like them to have. Period.
>
> >Creatures
> >eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
> >aren't discovered. Vampires are supernatural creatures.
>
> They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
> vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
> evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
> DEvolve.
Really? I didn't know that. Is it in "Ghouls: Fatal Addiction"? I tell you
what, tho, I'd be pissed to know that I couldn't raise my Arete... damn leech!
> > Given the
> >necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
> >power, don't you think?
>
> No.
>
> >There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
> >time if Mages can.
>
> How about this: mages are mages and vampires aren't. Vampires simply
> don't have the potential to effect things on that large a scale. It
> doesn't matter how long a vampire thinks about it, she'll never make
> five gallons of water fit into a teaspoon. Not even CAINE is
> omnipotent.
>
> > They will probably accomplish the feat in a totally
> >different way, but being both Awakened creatures (the Mage and the
> >Vampire) they have the same possibilities.
>
> No, they don't.
I agree... they really are on separate paths.
Soran
> Vampires are Vampires and mages aren't so bite me.
Ah!!! Was that a pun?!?! :)
Soran
Murrant SH wrote:
> One thing that puzzles me about these threads. Everyone seems to
> be assuming that Trad. mages would be going around fighting vampires
> and the other supernaturals.
Well, you really can't say the game is unbalanced when you pit Mage vs.
Mage. And no, I don;t think the games are unbalanced.
> Why? There are equally valid reasons for them to co-operate. And
> there is precedent for it too. All the various forms of supernatural
> seem to have some influence within Pentex. Now if these deranged
> Black Spirals/Sabbat/Nephrandi can work together why not the others?
Hehehe, welcome to the World of Darkness :)
> As an idea for you. A mage with Life 3 and Prime 2 can create simple
> life forms. I seem to recall that this is defined as single cell or
> invertebrate forms (insects etc). So what is to stop a Life mage
> from creating blood for a vampire, better yet what is to stop one
> from designing a symbiote that could be fed ordinary food and then
> live in the vampire's stomach and secrete say one or two blood points
> a day. Result is the vampire never has to hunt unless they have been
> using lots of blood to power a discipline.
Nothing's to stop 'im. It's just that the two don't generally mix. Mages
are wary of Vampires, and every Vamp book (therefore most Vamps) don't trust
Mages as far as they could throw them... uhhh, less than that, if you've got
Potence.
> Of course a vampire would really have to trust the mage in order to go
> along with this. But this is not impossible, it would just take time.
> The more arrogant Cam Kindred might turn their noses up at such an idea,
> but what about someone seeking Golconda? Do you think the Inconnu might
> have some interest in such an idea.
Hmmm... food for thought... My Humanity 7 Vamp would go for it (gee, no
more killing people!). Of course, what's in it for the Mage?
> All I'm saying is their should be more to interaction between the factions
> than "I can kill you", and some people seem to have lost sight of that.
> Maybe we haven't travelled quite as far from our AD&D hack 'n slay roots
> as we'd thought.
Trully depends on your ST. I have no problems playing/running mixed
campaigns.
K. Aspinall
>One thing that puzzles me about these threads. Everyone seems to
>be assuming that Trad. mages would be going around fighting vampires
>and the other supernaturals.
>
>there is precedent for it too. All the various forms of supernatural
>seem to have some influence within Pentex. Now if these deranged
>Black Spirals/Sabbat/Nephrandi can work together why not the others?
Some of us keep pointing out that mages and vampires just dont mix in the
games, but its far more fun shouting at each other... :)
Kris Aspinall
K. Aspinall
>Ok, but remember that it is impossible to know how many strange powers
>eventually evolve, and it is unlikely that new and strange powers
>aren't discovered.
the idea is that vampires dont evolve - as dead, static beings, who
eventually fall asleep, they dont progress - remember, its curse, not a
supernatural blessing.
Vampires are supernatural creatures. Given the
>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>power, don't you think? There isn't any reason they cannot manipulate
>time if Mages can. They will probably accomplish the feat in a totally
>different way, but being both Awakened creatures (the Mage and the
>Vampire) they have the same possibilities. The Awakening does not make
>the creature more "intelligent", simply more aware of how things
>really work. Maybe the Mage will master Time (not the "Sphere", I mean
>time itself) in a more easy way, then the Vampire, but there is no
>reason that says a Vampire cannot find how to master it.
No, I dont see why they could invent almost any power. They are bound by
strict rules on static magic - it simply isnt as flexible or powerful as true
magic.
There is alos no way for a vampire to master a sphere like a mage - firstly,
they dont have avatars, and secondly disciplines are extremely fixed
abilities - they could duplicate some rotes from mage, but they are not
spheres.
This idea that simply living longer allows you to discover all this new,
wonderful powerful stuff is silly - I'm quite confident that if I live till I
am 1000, I wont be the person to discover FTL travel, no matter how much I
work on it. There are limits to everyone and everything, and you cannot cross
them simply by being old!
Final point - I thought very old vampires had problems with their memories,
as in they begin to lose the very early memories they had? If so, they
certainly arnt going to be be at the cutting edge of discovery! :)
Finaly (again) - I also thought that inventing new disciplines was extremely
frowned upon by high up vampires etc...
Kris Aspinall
K. Aspinall
>We're not speaking to fly flapping arms. Neither Mages can do this. To
>fly they must use Magick, not simply flap their arms. And maybe this
>is the same for Vampires... After all their soul is Awakened, all they
>have to do is to understand the working of Magick, and it is difficult
>to me to believe that the are not able to UNDERSTAND it. Are humans
>more intelligent than Vampires?
It is completely impossible for any vampire, ever, to learn true magic.
Simple as that - no discipline / ability can get around the fact that
vampires do not possess awakened avatars.
When embraced, a person's avatar shreds and dies before them, preventing them
from ever doing true magic. They may or may not possess a shard of Caines
avatar (I personally dont think they do), but they do not have an avatar.
An avatar is a sort of soul being, that gets re-incarnated when the person
dies in an eternal quest to reach ascension. Vampires are static beings who
cannot ascend - they can reach golconda, etc., but they do not ascend.
BTw, a lot of people out there are forgetting that it is completely
believable for even extremely high generation vampires (3rd even, or maybe
higher) not to understand true magic.
After all, vampires dont socialise with mages, and dont come across them very
often either. Each group has its own concerns and enemies, and stays well
clear of the other.
AS all the rulebooks say, each group has very little information about the
others - mages believ vampires are fanged guys who hate garlic and mirrors,
whilst vampires believe mages to be people casting spells from a big book
with wierd sounds.
They probably wouldnt ever recognise each other for what they are - imagine a
vampires reaction when it runs across an iteration X hit mark, for example -
not your usual wizard idea, yet very common in the WoD. Same goes for mages
with vampires.
My own VA saw a garou tear off a pedestrians face in a park recently and
then get onto all 4's and run off into the park - he didnt immediately think
garou, or even werewolf. He thought "genetic mutation", or "technocracy
construction".
Anyway, thats enough rambling... :)
Kris Aspinall
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 3 Dec 1997 04:42:01 -0700, Soran <so...@primenet.com> wrote:
>kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
>
>> They have a certain finite set of abilities allowed to them by their blood
>> and by the fraction of Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not
>> equal omnipotence.
>
> Wait, isn't an Avatar supposed to get shredded upon the Embrace? I thought
>that that's why Vampires cannot use True Magick, and have to therefore use the
>_static_ magic granted them by their Disciplines. What they got from Caine
>(and the kids) was a _curse_, not an Avatar (or fraction thereof).
I can't remember if it's actually in a sourcebook or not, but I think
the common line is that Caine had an Avatar that is somehow passed on
through the blood. I think it's a little shakey myself.
Correlative to this spirited debate is the fact that there was going
to be a section in DSotBH with rules for vampire mages. Phil Brucato
let it be known that he would REALLY rather not have it work that way,
and thus, Avatars are shredded upon Embrace. The munchkin in me was
bummed, but I think it was a good call. No need for another
Abomination.
K.
Clemens Schmitz
Soran wrote:
>
> kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
>
> > They have a certain finite set of abilities allowed to them by their blood
> > and by the fraction of Caine's Avatar that came with it. Longevity does not
> > equal omnipotence.
>
> Wait, isn't an Avatar supposed to get shredded upon the Embrace? I thought
> that that's why Vampires cannot use True Magick, and have to therefore use the
> _static_ magic granted them by their Disciplines. What they got from Caine
> (and the kids) was a _curse_, not an Avatar (or fraction thereof).
Funny thing is, it says so in Chaos Factor: all Vampires have their
Avatars replaced by a fraction a Caine's.
> > They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
> > vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
> > evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
> > DEvolve.
>
> Really? I didn't know that. Is it in "Ghouls: Fatal Addiction"? I tell you
> what, tho, I'd be pissed to know that I couldn't raise my Arete... damn leech!
I think that one is in umm... Mage Players' Guide? Near the Ghoul Merit
(or was that Ascension's right hand? No thta' s the one with the missing
page reprinted in Halls of the Arcanum.)
Too many darn books :)
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 3 Dec 1997 02:53:43 GMT, jbr...@aol.com (JBRocky) wrote:
>>>Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
>>
>>>>They're also dead and static things. If a mage becomes Ghouled by a
>>>>vampire, her Arete can no longer increase. Only living creatures
>>>>evolve. Vampires spend a good portion of their time trying not to
>>>>DEvolve.
>>>>
>>>So this is why there are different bloodlines. Basicly they evolved.
>>
>>No, they're devolving. Caine had ALL Disciplines. The second
>>generation had MOST of the Disciplines. The third Generation COULD
>>learn any of them, but had to actually study to learn the ones that
>>didn't come naturally. Vampires Embraced after the third generation
>>had only three Disciplines they could learn naturally, and they had to
>>study extensively to learn them, and the higher levels are extremely
>>difficult for them (I consider anything requiring the expenditure of
>>35 XP to be extremely difficult).
>>Notice that Dark Ages vampires start with 4 Disciplines while modern
>>Camarilla vampires start with 3. It's the degeneration effect in
>>action.
>>
>First of all Vampiresociety is changing and therefore evolving. Not always for
>the best but still evolving.
Vampires and vampire society are not the same thing. Vampire society
is changing because it has to to keep up with humans, who ARE dynamic.
Vampires themselves are not evolving, but have to constantly fight
against devolving. Each generation is another spiral down for
vampires. It's why there are no vampires beyond the 14th generation.
It's why vampires have to watch their path ratings. Humanity, for
example, is a LOT easier to lose than to gain. The whole theme of the
game is degeneration.
>Since when did you meet Caine, the 2nd and the third Gen vampires and ask them
>about their disciplines. Just because vamps arn't as powerfull as their sires
>doesn't mean they are devolving. If theis was true Mages would be devolving
>from the pure ones.
What? There is no line of descent from The Pure Ones to modern mages
like there is from Caine to modern vampires. There is nothing
resembling the notion of generation in Mage, so your comparison is
noticeably weak.
>>>>> Given the
>>>>>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>>>>>power, don't you think?
>>
>>>In clanbook Tremere it states there an infinate number of paths, why not
>>>disciplines.
>>
>>Clanbook Tremere is also a little biased, hello.
>>
>
>And SO ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, not particularly. The Tremere just happen to be noted for their
high opinion of themselves and their abilities, and saying that their
assumptions about what they can do has anything to do with what
they're ACTUALLY capable of is just a bit naive and gullible.
>>>Nah just play in your mage campaign would munchie enough. And if you know
>>Mark
>>>R*H enough to know how he will react you must think your a Mage.
>>
>>I didn't say anything about how M R*H would react. I said he wrote
>>V:TM the way he did to play up on the folkloric powers of vampires,
>>which people are now choosing to disregard entirely in order to give
>>their characters increasingly excessive and unvampirelike abilities.
>>
>Again your are saying why Mark R*H did something, did he personaly tell you
>how he feels.
If a safe fell on your head and killed you, I wouldn't have to wonder
if gravity had something to do with it; a little common sense works
fine. Likewise, it's pretty obvious that M R*H created a game called
VAMPIRE about undead creatures of the night who drink blood because he
wanted to make use of vampire folklore. Duh. Then, if you look
carefully at the Disciplines in V:TM, you will see that every one of
them is something out of either folklore or literature. Vampires
turning into bats? Protean. Vampires calling their servants from
long distances? Summoning. Vampires controlling armies of rats?
Animalism. Vampiric strength/speed/endurance? Potence. Celerity.
Fortitude. It's not like the leap of logic is particularly difficult.
Which part don't you understand?
>>> Now I got a question for you. What makes you think Mages are
>>omnipotent?
>>
>>At no point have I ever made that claim.
>>
>
>I belive it was you who said Achmages are like demigods and Oracles are all
>powerful. If not your arguments say the same thing.
Archmages ARE like demigods and Oracles ARE all-powerful. That's not
what you asked. My starting Akashic Brother with high stealth and
five dots of Arcane is pretty cool and not weak as starting characters
go, but he's FAR from omnipotent. Archmages like Porthos and Medea
are orders of magnitude more powerful that that character, and Oracles
are... well, Oracles.
K.
glenn
> Well, I do not mean that Mages do not have disadvantages. Every enemy
> you mentioned have the Vampire counterpart. We could ever mention
> Werewolves, who seem to hate Vampires more than Mages.
vampires", to turn a phrase....
> Avoiding Paradox is just a matter of creativity. Use Static Magick and
> the danger is halved.
And if you botch, you still get nailed with paradox.....
> Vampires must avoid the Sun, which means that
> they must spend HALF their lives in dark and possibly sealed places.
I won't bother mentioning sleeping for mortals, which mages are....
Oops.. I just did...
>
> Mages are powerful not only in the mere use of firepower, but also
> because they seem to be allowed to kill anyone without too much
> remorse. Vampires can't. Humanity it's a bad burden to bear. Mages can
> be more ruthless than Vampires. Being allowed to kill with more ease,
> effectively make them more powerful, because they are more FREE.
2 quick points there...
1) Vampires don't have to worry about police when they kill their
enemies for several reasons. First, if it was kindred, odds are it will
be dust soon enough, and without said corpus disgusti, there is no case
for murder. Second, odds are, the police are controlled by the local
kindred anyway, so if the Prince/Bishop says "Forget it", they forget
it. Third, if needed, they can outrun or dominate the police, or
otherwise get away normally anyway. Mages, on the other hand, have to
worry about police when they kill something, and by extension, the
Technocracy....
2) In the game I'm just getting involved in on IRC, not only kindred,
but *all* chars are gaining virtues and humanity.... Sounds like a good
idea, especially as WW itself states that many a vampire has a higher
humanity than say, a mass murderer. Therefor, mortals should have a
humanity rating, and therefore, *all* critters in WOd should... Seems
like a slight oversight on WW's part....
Anyway, have fun...
Ulrich
Jack
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
>
> Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Jack <M...@home.com> abbia inciso le
> seguenti affermazioni:
>
> >common consencess believes that that avatar is bound, in a manner, to
> >the physical form of the vampire, this allows him to channel his blood
> >in manners that we commonly know as disiplines. It will not allow for
> >true magic due to the method in which it is bound.
>
> all if they are intelligent they CAN understand) without being able to
> work it. In other words, I know how FORCES works, too bad when I try
> nothing happens...
(double take)
you mean that you didn't already know about the fact ( yes fact , read
the dirty secrets of the black hand book ) that they already have
vampire understanding the principles of magick ( hell they have mortals
understanding the principales of magick read the order of hermes book )
> >I will agree, he is not omnipotent, and as far as you two know he may
> >alive, dead, a ghost assended, or in hell, an answer has never been
> >given as to even his existence so no silly argument involving caine if
> >you please.
>
> I never talked about Caine. It was not my post. Caine is another
> matter, we do not know anything about the Third Man, only that it is
> not a great idea trying to kill him. It could be even possible, but
> remember the anathema put on him.
My post was not only directed to you, I am glad to see you hold the same
view on the caine matter as me
> Giorgio
You have still failed to answer my question, what is it that you find
overpowering about mages, exactly what is it.
I would refer you, before you answer, to all of the sections in all of
the vampire books that refer to mages and the kindreds encounters with
them, you will notice a simularity in them.
As a point of interest, I do own all of the books for mage , werewolf
and vampire, I have read all of them and I ( and a few friends ) have
studied the clues given and the relation ships between.
A lot of problems occur with direct confrontation between the three
groups due to the foolishness of players not thinking in the same mode
as the type of character they are playing
and almost no vampire player I know has ever brought
allies 5
contacts 5
Influence 5
mentor 5
Recorces 5
Generation 5
supernatural contacts merits
with there starting points
and if they are the players ( and the people of the world of darkness )
then you think it might have occured to them that if they were going to
do what everyone assumes they would do when confronted with these
encounter problems, they would have chosen to have these backgrounds.
I personally enjoy my Giovanni character who does actually have these (
but you should see the enemies we face :)
sv...@ll.mit.edu
glenn wrote:
> Ummm... Mages don't have disadvantages? What about the Technocracy?
> They often know everything about every little thing you do.
Much as I love _Mage_, this is a common beef of mine with its world
and power structure as written; you frequently have to greatly suspend
disbelief to make it workable.
To use the Technocracy as an example, a PC, realistically, might get
away with one or possibly two very vulgar stunts. After enough time
and indiscretion (which, given all these sophisticated governmental
information networks and high-tech snooping equipment, should be a
_very_ slim margin for error), the Techs will come calling.
In the following sequence of possible events, either the PC will die
(unlikely in my games, since I tend towards kinder, gentler
Storytelling, but probably more likely in a game patterned after
'real-life' operatives and rapid-response teams) or he/she will
evade/fool/kill the investigators.
Here is the problem. Unless the Mage has managed to mystically conceal
him/herself 24/7 from magical scrutiny (difficult without Arcane) or
somehow convince the world that he/she is dead (which is pretty much
the only smart move to get out of this problem), this is the beginning
of the end. The Technocracy, although plagued with many other problems
consuming its attention, will now play dirty -- just extract situations
P and Q with side-effects X, Y, and Z from any sci-fi/espionage/techno-
thriller you've ever read/heard of/seen -- and attack the renegade from
all sides. Few if any characters (let alone real-life people) could
dodge such an onslaught for very long.
It's become a Catch-22 in my mind. Play the Technocracy at its full
power and capability -- the omnipotent Orwellian foes depicted in the
game -- and players guilty of even the faintest of slips drop like
flies. Dumb them down, and things become rather glaringly unbelievable.
No (apparent) way out. Sigh.
-- Sven (who still likes _Mage_ a lot)
LenaFalk
>> Vampires are Vampires and mages aren't so bite me.
>
> Ah!!! Was that a pun?!?! :)
No, it was an invitation.
Lena
_____________________
I've been called a witch.
I've crackled in the fire
And been called a liar.
I've died so many times
I'm only just coming to life.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
> I can't remember if it's actually in a sourcebook or not, but I think
> the common line is that Caine had an Avatar that is somehow passed on
> through the blood. I think it's a little shaky myself.
It's in both _The Book of Madness_ (description of that Tremere
infernalist) and _The Chaos Factor_ ("vampires have shards of Caine's
Avatar"). Works for me, anyway.
> Correlative to this spirited debate is the fact that there was going
> to be a section in DSotBH with rules for vampire mages.
This story always gives me a good chuckle.
-- S. Skoog
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Giorgio Anselmi wrote:
> I accept this. Maybe they may learn the principles of Magick (after
> all if they are intelligent they CAN understand) without being able to
> work it. In other words, I know how FORCES works, too bad when I try
> nothing happens...
The White Wolf canon hints here and there about vampires (typically
powerful Tremere and pre-Tremere Methuselah Thaumaturges) coming close
to, if not mastering in some small sense, True Magick. Certainly static
magic (i.e., Thaumaturgy, Numina) succeeds in this to some small degree.
Although a complete grasp and understanding of the Spheres is perhaps
impossible for the vampiric Pattern/Avatar/strawberry-Fluff/whatever,
they can at least work around it, given the centuries they have in which
to try.
As an aside, Giorgio, there is an ability called Mage Lore, which, at
the fifth level (ooooo) reads "You understand the theory of True Magick"
or something similar. Make of that what you will.
-- S. Skoog
the ogre
Ok guys, have you forgotten that the WOD games are not about creating
the biggest ass-kicking character, but about making a deep and
interesting character? Even so I am going to jump in the 'power
debate.' It is impossible to say which character type is the most
powerful. It would seem that mages are the most powerful characters,
but in reality they only have the POTENTIAL to become the most powerful
characters. The path of the mage is a hard one. Just because the
players know a mage is capable of something, doesn't mean the mage is.
He is stuck within his paradigm. Even if he has forces 3/prime two, he
may believe that he can fire off fireballs. Mages need focii, rituals
and need to undergo tough rites of passage before becoming more
enlightened. And though they are powerful they are toying with reality
and the consequences of carelees action are high. And mages ARE just
humans. They don't have the strength and rage of Gaia, nor the
immortality and strength of Caine. They don't have the malleability and
paradox-free powers of the Restless Dead or the Chimerical and
paradox-free powers of the Dreaming. And the mages must fear The
Technocracy more than all others, and are targets of all. Mage IS a
game about power, but it is about what you DO with that power, not how
much you horde. And if you really want to know who would win in combat
there are too many variables, so let it go. Just stick to the
storytelling. Who wants to be all-powerful anyway? Where's the fun in
that after ten minutes?
the ogre
i had to say SOMETHING!
Adam
the ogre wrote:
>
> Ok guys, have you forgotten that the WOD games are not about creating
> the biggest ass-kicking character, but about making a deep and
> interesting character? Even so I am going to jump in the 'power
> debate.' It is impossible to say which character type is the most
> powerful. It would seem that mages are the most powerful characters,
> but in reality they only have the POTENTIAL to become the most powerful
> characters. The path of the mage is a hard one. Just because the
> players know a mage is capable of something, doesn't mean the mage is.
> He is stuck within his paradigm. Even if he has forces 3/prime two, he
> may believe that he can fire off fireballs. Mages need focii, rituals
> and need to undergo tough rites of passage before becoming more
> enlightened. And though they are powerful they are toying with reality
> and the consequences of carelees action are high. And mages ARE just
> humans. They don't have the strength and rage of Gaia, nor the
> immortality and strength of Caine. They don't have the malleability and
> paradox-free powers of the Restless Dead or the Chimerical and
> paradox-free powers of the Dreaming. And the mages must fear The
> game about power, but it is about what you DO with that power, not how
> much you horde.
> that after ten minutes?
> the ogre
Hot damn...someone with a good point, and we ain't talkin about the one
under the hair either.
Zarquon
Re: Re: Mage vs World of Darkness
> Not at all, friction (by whatever name your paradigm calls it) is a Force
Hmm.. Maybe I should carry a toilet plunger then to get around.. or a
pickaxe. <g>
Zarquon
Sysop of Imperial Realms
feedme.org/anti-spam.html
> One thing that puzzles me about these threads. Everyone seems to
> be assuming that Trad. mages would be going around fighting vampires
> and the other supernaturals.
>
> Why?
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
> Correlative to this spirited debate is the fact that there was going
> to be a section in DSotBH with rules for vampire mages. Phil Brucato
> let it be known that he would REALLY rather not have it work that way,
> and thus, Avatars are shredded upon Embrace. The munchkin in me was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> bummed, but I think it was a good call. No need for another
> Abomination.
>
>
Well, if you want a rationale for Trad mages going around exterminating
Vamps, there you go. The entire Cainite race is committing Gilgul
without sanction as part of thier reproductive process!
Personally, I prefer to have Mages and Vamps keep out of conflict
with eachother - for the most part, thier goals and ativities don't
overlap or conflict. To preserve that sort of tense nuetrality
(and because I don't believe Avatars should be so easily destroyed)
I just assume that the Embrace = Death, and the Avatar reincarnates
and is replaced by the power of the Sire's Vitae. Same basic effect
(no Vampire Mages),but no Mage vs Vampire Holy War. I also prefer the
1st Ed version of Gilgul - it was the severing of the Avatar from
the Mage, not the destruction of the Avatar, and it required greater
than Sphere 5 magick.
To many of the Paradigms in Mage (the Euthanotos, and the CC, for
instance) the Avatar is the most important aspect of the Mage's
existance (even to the point of being identical with the Soul).
It's destruction would certainly the most horrific crime imagineable
(if it's even possible).
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K. Aspinall wrote:
>
> >We're not speaking to fly flapping arms. Neither Mages can do this. To
> >fly they must use Magick, not simply flap their arms. And maybe this
> >is the same for Vampires... After all their soul is Awakened, all they
> >have to do is to understand the working of Magick, and it is difficult
> >to me to believe that the are not able to UNDERSTAND it. Are humans
> >more intelligent than Vampires?
>
> It is completely impossible for any vampire, ever, to learn true magic.
> Simple as that - no discipline / ability can get around the fact that
> vampires do not possess awakened avatars.
>
Avatars (and thier Awakened status) are visible to Prime/Spirit perceptions,
so I should think Mages would be aware of the Kindred's status. All the
source matierial I've seen seems to indicate that all the supernaturals,
including Kindred are Awakened (just in odd ways compared to what mages
are used to). Certainly, that has been my own experience thus far.
> When embraced, a person's avatar shreds and dies before them, preventing them
> from ever doing true magic. They may or may not possess a shard of Caines
> avatar (I personally dont think they do), but they do not have an avatar.
>
A shard of an Avatar and an Avatar are the same thing. We all posses
shards of the Pure Ones, who in turn were shards of the One (if you
think the Choristers know anything about it, anyway). So if Vamps are
indowed with avatar framgments passed down from Caine, they have Avatars.
Also, I can't conceive of Avatars really being subject to destruction
by the Embrace (or Gilgul for that matter). More likely they just
reincarnate, the only oddity being that the mind of the victim lives
on in a Vampiric body, with a new Vampiric Avatar (the Beast?).
> An avatar is a sort of soul being, that gets re-incarnated when the person
> dies in an eternal quest to reach ascension. Vampires are static beings who
> cannot ascend - they can reach golconda, etc., but they do not ascend.
>
I can see why you have such a low opinion of the Kindred, by your estimation
they are only souless husks. No better than Golems or Hit Marks...
If you could accept that they are Awakened, you might notice the
similarities between Golconda and some conceptions of Ascension.
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che glenn <gbr...@mailhost.epix.net>
abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
>I won't bother mentioning sleeping for mortals, which mages are....
>Oops.. I just did...
I already explained, the two things are DIFFERENT. If a Mage is
sleeping by day and someone suddenly open the shutters, the Mage DOES
NOT DIE. Vampires do.
>1) Vampires don't have to worry about police when they kill their
>enemies for several reasons. First, if it was kindred, odds are it will
>be dust soon enough, and without said corpus disgusti, there is no case
>for murder. Second, odds are, the police are controlled by the local
>kindred anyway, so if the Prince/Bishop says "Forget it", they forget
>it. Third, if needed, they can outrun or dominate the police, or
>otherwise get away normally anyway. Mages, on the other hand, have to
>worry about police when they kill something, and by extension, the
>Technocracy....
Oh, please. Are you trying to convince me that a Mage can't dispose of
a body in a matter of seconds?? They can burn it with Forces, move it
with Correspondence, transform it with Matter...
Mage can also use Mind to influence Police officers and occasional
witnesses.
>2) In the game I'm just getting involved in on IRC, not only kindred,
>but *all* chars are gaining virtues and humanity...
This is good, buy what happens to a Mage if his Humanity level falls
to zero? Vampires become owerwhelmed by the Beast. And Mages? Do their
Avatar decide to move away?? I do not think...
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che Jack <M...@home.com> abbia inciso le
seguenti affermazioni:
>you mean that you didn't already know about the fact ( yes fact , read
>the dirty secrets of the black hand book ) that they already have
>vampire understanding the principles of magick ( hell they have mortals
>understanding the principales of magick read the order of hermes book )
No, I didn't. If this was a very common thing to know, sorry, but I
never read the Sabbat handbook.
>My post was not only directed to you, I am glad to see you hold the same
>view on the caine matter as me
Ok, we do.
>You have still failed to answer my question, what is it that you find
>overpowering about mages, exactly what is it.
I believe them to be too much powerful because they aren't particular
character like other WoD beings. Vampires are good in several thing,
but they are PARTICULARLY good at intrigues, Werewolves are good in
several things, but are PARTICULARLY good at fighting. Mages, after
some time, seem to be PARTICULARLY good at everything. As for Whraits,
well, they rarely interact with other beings, so I'll let them out. I
know very little of Changelings, so I'll let them out too.
>and if they are the players ( and the people of the world of darkness )
>then you think it might have occured to them that if they were going to
>do what everyone assumes they would do when confronted with these
>encounter problems, they would have chosen to have these backgrounds.
Err, I hate to say this, but my English is not so good, I'm Italian,
so could you explain this better? It seems interesting, but
I-did-not-understand... :-)
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che CSC...@leeds.ac.uk (K. Aspinall)
abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
> This idea that simply living longer allows you to discover all this new,
>wonderful powerful stuff is silly - I'm quite confident that if I live till I
>am 1000, I wont be the person to discover FTL travel, no matter how much I
>work on it. There are limits to everyone and everything, and you cannot cross
>them simply by being old!
In Mage it is stated that reality is not what Science taught us. So,
the speed limit is not that of light. So, your Mage can discover how
to travel faster. And maybe a Vampire can too.
>Final point - I thought very old vampires had problems with their memories,
>as in they begin to lose the very early memories they had? If so, they
>certainly arnt going to be be at the cutting edge of discovery! :)
I suppose that an Ancient Vampire with 7 or 8 in Intelligence has a
pretty good memory...
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che CSC...@leeds.ac.uk (K. Aspinall)
abbia inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
> AS all the rulebooks say, each group has very little information about the
>others - mages believ vampires are fanged guys who hate garlic and mirrors,
>whilst vampires believe mages to be people casting spells from a big book
>with wierd sounds.
OH, PLEASE. If Mages still believe this then they are not very
dangerous opponent. When confronting a Vampire they will try to scare
them with a cross with garlic on it. Maybe after hundreds of Mages
being shredded this way, they will start to learn more...
Of course the same thing is for Vampires. They won't be worried by
people without bog book in hands. Then they will probably be burned
ina matter of second. I do not think that things happen this way. Even
because Tremere (the clan, not the guy) know quite well how Mages are.
JBRocky
Vampires do not devolve the farther away from cain they are. They grow less
powerful, and become close to beoming human.
Vampires who have created new bloodlines have evloved away from their clan into
somthing new. Those who have reached Golcomda have evolved into a new state.
>>Since when did you meet Caine, the 2nd and the third Gen vampires and ask
>them
>>about their disciplines. Just because vamps arn't as powerfull as their
>sires
>>doesn't mean they are devolving. If theis was true Mages would be devolving
>>from the pure ones.
>
>What? There is no line of descent from The Pure Ones to modern mages
>like there is from Caine to modern vampires. There is nothing
>resembling the notion of generation in Mage, so your comparison is
>noticeably weak.
>
So where do you think avatars came from? they came from the pure ones!
>>>>>> Given the
>>>>>>necessary amount of time and research, they could invent nearly any
>>>>>>power, don't you think?
>>>
>>>>In clanbook Tremere it states there an infinate number of paths, why not
>>>>disciplines.
>>>
>>>Clanbook Tremere is also a little biased, hello.
>>>
>>
>>And SO ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>No, not particularly. The Tremere just happen to be noted for their
>high opinion of themselves and their abilities, and saying that their
>assumptions about what they can do has anything to do with what
>they're ACTUALLY capable of is just a bit naive and gullible.
>
>
Yes the Tremere are full of themselves just like you. When the fact of
unlimited number of paths was mentioned it was White Wolf talking not the
Tremere. In fact many elders don't know this or hide it from the others.
>>>>Nah just play in your mage campaign would munchie enough. And if you know
>>>Mark
>>>>R*H enough to know how he will react you must think your a Mage.
>>>
>>>I didn't say anything about how M R*H would react. I said he wrote
>>>V:TM the way he did to play up on the folkloric powers of vampires,
>>>which people are now choosing to disregard entirely in order to give
>>>their characters increasingly excessive and unvampirelike abilities.
>>>
>>Again your are saying why Mark R*H did something, did he personaly tell you
>>how he feels.
>
>If a safe fell on your head and killed you, I wouldn't have to wonder
>if gravity had something to do with it; a little common sense works
>fine. Likewise, it's pretty obvious that M R*H created a game called
>VAMPIRE about undead creatures of the night who drink blood because he
>wanted to make use of vampire folklore. Duh. Then, if you look
>carefully at the Disciplines in V:TM, you will see that every one of
>them is something out of either folklore or literature. Vampires
>turning into bats? Protean. Vampires calling their servants from
>long distances? Summoning. Vampires controlling armies of rats?
>Animalism. Vampiric strength/speed/endurance? Potence. Celerity.
>Fortitude. It's not like the leap of logic is particularly difficult.
>Which part don't you understand?
>
Yes he created the game based on folklore but he was not ruled by it. This can
be seen by the fact that not all vampiric weaknesses are true but mere tales.
Can many of theses weaknesses be choosen through flaws? Yes. But they are not
mandatory. Basicly Mark R*H has created his own folklore, and allowed others
to add their own creativity to it.
>>>> Now I got a question for you. What makes you think Mages are
>>>omnipotent?
>>>
>>>At no point have I ever made that claim.
>>>
>>
>>I belive it was you who said Achmages are like demigods and Oracles are all
>>powerful. If not your arguments say the same thing.
>
>Archmages ARE like demigods and Oracles ARE all-powerful. That's not
>what you asked. My starting Akashic Brother with high stealth and
>five dots of Arcane is pretty cool and not weak as starting characters
>go, but he's FAR from omnipotent. Archmages like Porthos and Medea
>are orders of magnitude more powerful that that character, and Oracles
>are... well, Oracles
And therefore by your own definition omnipotent. Making Anti's who are equal
in power ( both being so powerful they are beyond stats) omnipotent. And as
for Caine, the 2nd gen, Incarn, and Celestines are just WOW!
>
> K
Now for the scary part I do agree in part. Are vamps capeable of True Magick ,
Gifts and for the sake of argument Arcanos? NO. However they can and have
learned disciplines which mimick some of their powers. This takes lot of
study and trail and error making it far from easy.
Jeff R
JBRocky
Why don't the Vamps help mages. Who says they don't. However each clan would
have different reason to help or hurt Trad or Techno mages.
Point in case Ventrue could be assisting the technocracy by the fact they both
love power and control. Assimites might have Euthinos (sp) allies. Tzimisce
cold be helping the Order of Hermes due to their mutal hate of the Tremere.
Jeff R
Jason Bishop
Giorgio Anselmi wrote in message <8811971...@tango.comm2000.it>...
<snip>
>OH, PLEASE. If Mages still believe this then they are not very
>dangerous opponent. When confronting a Vampire they will try to scare
>them with a cross with garlic on it. Maybe after hundreds of Mages
>being shredded this way, they will start to learn more...
>Of course the same thing is for Vampires. They won't be worried by
>people without bog book in hands. Then they will probably be burned
>ina matter of second. I do not think that things happen this way. Even
>because Tremere (the clan, not the guy) know quite well how Mages are.
Actually the Tremere left the OoH before the formation of the council and
didnt at that time didnt place much stock in the voodoo-who-do magics of
other peoples, to the point of destroying other factions and taking any of
their resources for themselves. As far as the Tremere are concerned True
Magic is gone for the most part. After all the reason Tremere and his
flunkies became vampires was to escape the "death of magic" which they
believed occured near or soon after the fall of Mistridge. The majority of
vampires _do_not_ know much about True Magick, including the Tremere.
And as for a Mage why should your average Mage know more about a Vampire
than any other mortal. Vampires are not the major antagonist of the
Tradition Mage, s/he has "bigger fish to fry" in the technocracy and
nephandi. Why even study some weird gothic punk cult fantasy when your
worried about your own exhistance let alone realities. Unless the Mage in
question has a very good reason to be dealing with Vampires s/he shouldnt
know anymore about Vamps than the rest of society.
Jason E. Bishop
email: bis...@wcic.org
"It is because Humanity has never known where
it was going that it has been able to find its way."
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
> Giorgio
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clemens Schmitz
At least in one of the basic Sabbat books it says that the Sabbat has
allies in House Tytalus, even thoughg they seldom call upon them.
There you are.
Clemens Schmitz
Soran wrote:
(snip)
> Apparently, one of the early Mage books says that Vamps get a shard of
> Caine's Avatar. Mage 2nd edition states that an Avatar is shredded (upon the
> Embrace).
It says even earlier (Book of Shadows, I believe)...