Review of the New Sabbat Guide
kcha...@my-dejanews.com
*Smart Money's on Vegas*
Lets begin, first lets look at the best part of a White Wolf Book. The
Narrative Introduction, it was as usual, excellent and attention grabbing.
It was about the exploits of two Sabbat member rin Las Vegas (amoung other
places). 8/10, cause Clanbook: Giovanni was the only 10 I have seen for an
introduction!
*Chapter1: The Sword of Caine*
"Your basic the Sabbat is stuff. . .", such as Who they are, what they
think, their titles and factions within the sect. We have seen it before.
However the statments on "The Code of Milan" and the Purchase were nice, so
that's worrth a few extra points! 6/10
*Chapter2: Around the Fires*
The biggest surprise so far this year in the WoD! We are talking the
parting of water here! Item A, the Salubri Antitribu, we now know where all
the warrior Salubri went and there is more than 7! The Ccamarilla better
get a head start now! Item B, The Harbingers of Skulls, the new kinds on
the block, metioned in that obscure refrence in Clanbook Giovanni. They
have Auspex, Fortitude and Neccromancy. And there primary Necromancy path
look rally similar to Mor. . . Finally, add updated Blood Brother, Kiasyd
and Panders. 9.5/10
*Chapter3: Sons and Daughters & Chapter 4: The Gifts of Caine*
It has the. . .
*Basic "How to Make a Sabbat"
*Diciplines >5
*New Diciplines
*Mixed Diciplines
*New Thamaturgy Paths
*A GREAT new Necromancy Path for the Harbingers of Skulls
*Rituals
8/10, cause it wasn't just rehash from the previous Sabbat books.
*Chapter 5: Codes of the Night*
Ummmmm Paths, the most controversial part of the new Sabbat book:
Something borrowed (Path of Lilith from DSoftBH), something new (Path of the
Feral Heart), something old (The standards like, the Path of Power and Inner
Voice), and something that will never happen in my sabbat game (the Path of
Humanity in a Sabbat Game)! Justin I understand your reasoning for adding
humanity from the on-line chat. But the way you are brought into the Sabbat
(shovel party), would shred any humanity you had from you. Just an opinion
nothing personal.
7/10
*Chapter 6 & 7*
On creating Sabbat Games and Creating Sabbat Cities 100% better than the old
Sabbat books.
9/10
33.5/40
TOTAL 85%
Kyle "The Sage" Charron
PS Please ignore the grammar and typo thing I am very tired.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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man...@geocities.com
England.
I don't remember all the Chapter names, but I'll take it in chunks. I also
have not read every single page yet, so I may have missed a few things.
Oh yes, spoiler warnings, particularly about the Harbringers of Skulls.
Fiction - Fine really.
Then we have a look at the Sabbat, its history, its territories, its ranks,
politics and practices. There is a lot more detail here than before, and the
whole thing hangs together rather better. It the same Sabbat, but it works
better and is generally more coherent. Elders rarely play in the "fun and
games" but it keeps the rabble happy. The Masquerade is effectively enforced
in their own cities. The Inquisition has grown in numbers and success, while
the Black Hand has been rather less effective recently.
The Clans and Bloodlines get more treatment. In general they are a bit more
independent than before, with more of their own agendas. The Ventrue antitrbu
are more like knight than rebels (and have the main clan disciplines), the
Kyasid are more scholorly (sp?).
Oh the Warrior Salubri and Cappadocians have joined up. Sorry, did I say
Cappadocians? Harbringers of skulls, the ones who look like corpses. The ones
who have some tie with the Samedi, are all old and after revenge for some
betrayal, and have Auspex, Fortidue and Necromancy with the Path or Mortuus.
They probably have Cappadocain Clan T-Shirt too ;)
Anyway, they are both with the Sabbat to persue their own agendas of revenge
really, its more an allience of convienience by both sides. Nor are they very
numerous.
The Tremere anti got turned into columns of ash, and the Ahrimanes don't get a
mention at all as far as I've been able to tell.
Disciplines - Combi disciplines are back! As is some DA favs like Chiroptean
Marauder and the Vis/Protean Body Arsenal. Valeren is here, the new Obeah at
lower levels, and the old warrior Valeren at higher ones. So it Mortis, er the
Path or Mortuus for Necromancy.
Dark Thuam is now just Thaum taught by Demons, athough since Fires of Inferno
summons up Balefire perhaps some other things too. There are less Paths since
Inferanlism has had something of a setback. A couple of new Thaum Paths, and a
mixture of new and old Thaum rituals (although the gross stuff like Chill of
the Windsabre seem to be missing... tragic). Thaum is waning since the Tremere
anti went, although Koldunic Sorcerery seems to be having a bit of a revival.
Paths and rituals. There is a nice discussion of to use, and not use Paths,
including a referece to the "Path of What I Was Going to do Anyway" mentioned
on this newsgroup. Cudos to Justin for listening to the reasonable criticisim,
amoungst all the dross, on the net.
The Paths are generally better thought out and structure. All the old favs are
here, including Evil Rev and Lillith is here too. Many now have prohibitions
against killing under
All the old favs? Well when I read Feral Heart I thought "they just renamed
Harmony", the list of sins are practically the same. It has a bit less
emphasis on nature, and a bit more on being a predator but has the same
prohibitions against cruelty and killing. Then there is a sidebar on Harmony,
explaining how Harmony spilt. Some Harmonists didn't like the way the Sabbat
behaved and left (or tried and got killed) while others adapted their beleifs
to Feral Heart. Thats OK, its just I can't any circumstances where a
Harmonist would have a problem with the Sabbats actions and a Beast would not
since the Moral Guidelines are so similar.
The Rituals. Much more depth and detial and more rituals too. As for their
power, well the Valuderie is the most magicaly potent, these really are not
like Garou or Kuei-jin rituals, much more low key and mostly social. To get
them to work you need the rituals background which is supposed to represent
some kind of mystic connection. I'm so sure about that idea, I think I would
rather it just represnted knowing how to do it properly.
Storyteller info. This is really good stuff. How to use the Sabbat, how to
run Sabbat games, unique roleplaying opportunities they present. How to make
Sabbat cities and how they make war on the Camarilla. Templates are providied
as is some details on the Revenants. The info here is really much higher
quality than the old Sabbat books.
I've mentioned a couple of quibbles, but its worth pointing out they are very
minor. Indeed, I'm only pointing them because I don't have anything major to
complain about.
Overall, an excelllent piece of work. If you liked the Sabbat before, you
almost certainly still will. If you didn't know who to use them, this will
certainly help you. If you had problems with them? Well I would say this has a
pretty good chance of fixing them for you.
Mant
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
kcha...@my-dejanews.com
> Oh yes, spoiler warnings, particularly about the Harbringers of Skulls.
<snip>
> The Clans and Bloodlines get more treatment. In general they are a bit more
> independent than before, with more of their own agendas. The Ventrue antitrbu
> are more like knight than rebels (and have the main clan disciplines), the
> Kyasid are more scholorly (sp?).
I really did like the way they handeledthe Kiasyd. Treated them sort of like
scholarly advisors. Now I have a question for you. Don't you think it is
intresting how the myth of all Sabbat are in packs (or Covens) has been
dispelled for some. Notice how the Kiasyd, Harbingers and Salubri do not take
Packs. This adds an interesting factor don't you think?
>
> Oh the Warrior Salubri and Cappadocians have joined up. Sorry, did I say
> Cappadocians? Harbringers of skulls, the ones who look like corpses. The ones
> who have some tie with the Samedi, are all old and after revenge for some
> betrayal, and have Auspex, Fortidue and Necromancy with the Path or Mortuus.
This was the Highlight of the book. Now I have another question how does
this relate to the Baron Samedi Reference in CB: Giovanni? How do the Samedi
fit in? Are they the Caps that didn't join the Sabbat, or something created
by the Harbingers?
Oh and for anyone who think it is strange that the Caps joined the Sabbat in
the Dark Ages the Tzimisce and Caps were Buddy-buddy!
<snip>
> Anyway, they are both with the Sabbat to persue their own agendas of revenge
> really, its more an allience of convienience by both sides. Nor are they very
> numerous.
The Salubri however are procreating, so to speak, the Harbingers aren't (yet)!
> The Tremere anti got turned into columns of ash, and the Ahrimanes don't get
a
> mention at all as far as I've been able to tell.
Yes but who is responcible for the Tremere Antitribu mass deaths, rember the
refrence to the Harbingers in CB: Giovanni. What is your theory?
Kyle "The Sage" Charron
The Saint of Killers
> Dark Thuam is now just Thaum taught by Demons, athough since Fires of Inferno
> summons up Balefire perhaps some other things too. There are less Paths since
> Inferanlism has had something of a setback. A couple of new Thaum Paths, and a
> mixture of new and old Thaum rituals (although the gross stuff like Chill of
> the Windsabre seem to be missing... tragic). Thaum is waning since the Tremere
> anti went, although Koldunic Sorcerery seems to be having a bit of a revival.
As a person of slavic ancestry (whose grandfather still believes in the
old ways and practices them, though it spooks the others in the nursing
home) I was extremely offended at the treatment of Koldunic sorcery.
Look at a few of the words used to describe it. Blasphemous. Vile. Uh.
Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
devils and sodomizing demons.
Of course, I am just a net pundit.
SoK
Who'd like to see a new treatment of the Verbena that includes all the
shitty stuff that the Celts of old actually did. Y'know, baby eating,
blood gulping, all that kewl stuff.
Clemens Schmitz
(snip all relevant stuff)
> Of course, I am just a net pundit.
>
> SoK
> Who'd like to see a new treatment of the Verbena that includes all the
> shitty stuff that the Celts of old actually did. Y'know, baby eating,
> blood gulping, all that kewl stuff.
'Actually' is of course based on accounts given by their enemies, isn't
it?
Clemens
--
They don't look quite like real science, but geography is just physics
slowed down and with a few trees stuck on it, and meteorology is full of
excitingly fashionable chaos and complexity.
-Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay-
Dkyhn
>shitty stuff that the Celts of old actually did. Y'know, baby eating,
>blood gulping, all that kewl stuff.
I think the treatment of the Verbena does hint at this. Aren't there veiled
references in the Verbena tradition book to "the old ways" and small groups of
Verbena who still practice them? Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.
On a similar note, I'd like to see treatment of the Order of Hermes that
includes some of their dirtier side. I only have a surface knowledge of
renaissance sorcery, but it did revolve heavily around spirit. (I've always
thought they got stuck with forces because the dreamspeakers had already taken
spirit). There is a lot of work with demons, even though many of the sorcerers
didn't consider themselves infernalists since they were summoning and binding
dark powers in the name of God, Christ and the angels.
Two cents....
David Kyhn
dk...@aol.com
thor...@my-dejanews.com
kcha...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> This was the Highlight of the book. Now I have another question how does
> this relate to the Baron Samedi Reference in CB: Giovanni? How do the Samedi
> fit in? Are they the Caps that didn't join the Sabbat, or something created
> by the Harbingers?
It appears to me that, as hinted in the Clanbooks for the Giovanni and
Cappadocian, the Samedi are the childre of the infinitores(sp). The Cappas
not present at the feast of folly. I've always seen the Samedi as
fascinating because they have reasons to hate both the Cappadocians(would
they have been locked away had they been at the feast?) and the Giovanni.
The Harbingers(while obviously Cappadocians) origins are in doubt for me
though. The book talks about how they came back from the spirit world of
South/Central America. Or at least that they returned from the spirit world.
This leads me to wonder: why their were so many dead cappadocian wraiths
hanging around South America, whether they did not physically come back from
the spirit world but are in truth the vampires imprisoned in the feast of
folly come back, or some other thing entirely.
> Yes but who is responcible for the Tremere Antitribu mass deaths, rember the
> refrence to the Harbingers in CB: Giovanni. What is your theory?
I think what you're referring to here was the way the information on the
deaths of the Tremere Antis was placed in the same sentence as the
information about the Harbingers in the write up on POchtli in CB:G.
Honestly I think thats just a problem with the way it was phrased, if anyone
took out the tremere it was the Sabbat Salubri, as is hinted at in the Sabbat
Guide
John
William Geiger
>parting of water here! Item A, the Salubri Antitribu, we now know where
all
>the warrior Salubri went and there is more than 7! The Ccamarilla
better
>get a head start now!
So are they all evil basterds who delight in eating souls?
PhaseAkuma
tremere....
Justin R. Achilli
<stofk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> As a person of slavic ancestry (whose grandfather still believes in the
> old ways and practices them, though it spooks the others in the nursing
> home) I was extremely offended at the treatment of Koldunic sorcery.
> Look at a few of the words used to describe it. Blasphemous. Vile. Uh.
> Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
> devils and sodomizing demons.
I caution you against confusing true Slavic animist practices with the
vampiric Discipline founded on them.
And it has nothing to do with Dreamspeakers. It's a Tzimisce creation, and I
stand by vile and blasphemous in that context.
Regards,
Justin
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Vampire: The Masquerade Developer]
[White Wolf Game Studio]
[jach...@white-wolf.com - www.white-wolf.com]
"Vapid whore!"
-- Buffy, _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_
Moiner
<jach...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> In article <36B9E4...@earthlink.net> , The Saint of Killers
> <stofk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > As a person of slavic ancestry (whose grandfather still believes in the
> > old ways and practices them, though it spooks the others in the nursing
> > home) I was extremely offended at the treatment of Koldunic sorcery.
> > Look at a few of the words used to describe it. Blasphemous. Vile. Uh.
> > Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
> > devils and sodomizing demons.
>
> I caution you against confusing true Slavic animist practices with the
> vampiric Discipline founded on them.
WADR, this is one of the inherent problems in using RL terms for WOD
creations. By setting the WOD so close to RL, you invite comparisons,
and when you use terms from actual traditions, religions, places, or events
you're going to get people who say, "Hey, that's my people you're talking
about!"
The problem is that thecanon WOD is now so far from our world that it is less
and less useful to use RL names any more, IMO. I find I just have to forget too
much history, politics, religion, philosophy, et alia to offset the
BTW, when you offend someone and didn't mean to, the phrase is,
"I'm sorry you were offended."
--
"What do you do when all your excuses are gone?"
Justin R. Achilli
moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner) wrote:
>> I caution you against confusing true Slavic animist practices with the
>> vampiric Discipline founded on them.
>
> WADR, this is one of the inherent problems in using RL terms for WOD
> creations. By setting the WOD so close to RL, you invite comparisons,
> and when you use terms from actual traditions, religions, places, or events
> you're going to get people who say, "Hey, that's my people you're talking
> about!"
True, but too much whole cloth fabrication distances the setting that much
more from the real world the WoD is supposed to resemble. Catch 22, I'm
afraid, but as a personal preference, I like the resonance.
> BTW, when you offend someone and didn't mean to, the phrase is,
> "I'm sorry you were offended."
I'm aware of etiquette. I made no apology. If you're pressing for one, then
here: I'm sorry our ebullient Saint didn't draw the distinction between
fictional material and reality (which is a bit curious, given that the book
has _three_ sidebars that warn against such). Should I apologize to everyone
named John for the decidedly unwholesome light in which we present our
Giovanni?
Kintaro Oe
>Cappadocian, the Samedi are the childre of the infinitores(sp). The Cappas
>not present at the feast of folly. I've always seen the Samedi as
>fascinating because they have reasons to hate both the Cappadocians(would
>they have been locked away had they been at the feast?) and the Giovanni.
>The Harbingers(while obviously Cappadocians) origins are in doubt for me
>though. The book talks about how they came back from the spirit world of
>South/Central America. Or at least that they returned from the spirit world.
> This leads me to wonder: why their were so many dead cappadocian wraiths
>hanging around South America, whether they did not physically come back from
>the spirit world but are in truth the vampires imprisoned in the feast of
>folly come back, or some other thing entirely.
perhaps the travelled their prior to the Giovanni coup?
concievable, depending on how advanced Necromancy was at the time...
I'm not sure whether I like the Feast origin or the "back from the
dead" origin more... both have strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't
imagine that the Cappos would have survived the Feast intact, nor
would they have escaped without something rather large helping.
kabael - Amida Guddha, Boddhisattva of the Creeping
Sad notes- In this world
we're all bamboo's children we walk on the roof of hell,
in the end. gazing at flowers.
-Basho -Issa
homepage (under construction!!) - http://members.xoom.com/kabael/
Mcguffin Group - http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/index.html
I love messages! ICQ #24193592 kab...@bu.edu
Kintaro Oe
>independent than before, with more of their own agendas. The Ventrue antitrbu
>are more like knight than rebels (and have the main clan disciplines), the
>Kyasid are more scholorly (sp?).
aw, I liked the odd-ass Ventrue disciplines. :)
and I still don't like the new Kiasyd spread.
>Anyway, they are both with the Sabbat to persue their own agendas of revenge
>really, its more an allience of convienience by both sides. Nor are they very
>numerous.
this still seems more than a bit -odd-. I'll have to wait and see how
it's done in detail.
>
>The Tremere anti got turned into columns of ash, and the Ahrimanes don't get a
>mention at all as far as I've been able to tell.
boo! hiss! I liked them. At least we can hold out hope that they will
reappear/be left alone.
>Dark Thuam is now just Thaum taught by Demons, athough since Fires of Inferno
>summons up Balefire perhaps some other things too. There are less Paths since
yes! score! I always ran it like that. Made more sense to me...
>The Rituals. Much more depth and detial and more rituals too. As for their
>power, well the Valuderie is the most magicaly potent, these really are not
>like Garou or Kuei-jin rituals, much more low key and mostly social. To get
>them to work you need the rituals background which is supposed to represent
>some kind of mystic connection. I'm so sure about that idea, I think I would
>rather it just represnted knowing how to do it properly.
I dunno either. I might end up requiring Thaum to get some -oomph- out
of the rituals.
>
>Storyteller info. This is really good stuff. How to use the Sabbat, how to
>run Sabbat games, unique roleplaying opportunities they present. How to make
>Sabbat cities and how they make war on the Camarilla. Templates are providied
>as is some details on the Revenants. The info here is really much higher
>quality than the old Sabbat books.
how much detail on the Revenants? anything new, as in what was not in
Ghouls?
Moiner
<jach...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> In article <moiner-ya02408000...@hiram.io.com> ,
> moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner) wrote:
>
> >> I caution you against confusing true Slavic animist practices with the
> >> vampiric Discipline founded on them.
> >
> > WADR, this is one of the inherent problems in using RL terms for WOD
> > creations. By setting the WOD so close to RL, you invite comparisons,
> > and when you use terms from actual traditions, religions, places, or events
> > you're going to get people who say, "Hey, that's my people you're talking
> > about!"
>
> True, but too much whole cloth fabrication distances the setting that much
> more from the real world the WoD is supposed to resemble. Catch 22, I'm
> afraid, but as a personal preference, I like the resonance.
It's harder for me to sustain the tension-- our ST finally did go the route of
shifting the story 20 years into the future just to get away from all the
things that were so confusing. I can go with the WOD as "a world that is
indistinguishable from our own in appearance, but run differently behind
the scenes", but what I see now is a world whose history, cosmology,
politics, and events are *utterly* unlike our own, so much so that I fail
the Thomas Covenant test, and just can't care.
> > BTW, when you offend someone and didn't mean to, the phrase is,
> > "I'm sorry you were offended."
>
> I'm aware of etiquette. I made no apology. If you're pressing for one, then
> here: I'm sorry our ebullient Saint didn't draw the distinction between
> fictional material and reality (which is a bit curious, given that the book
> has _three_ sidebars that warn against such). Should I apologize to everyone
> named John for the decidedly unwholesome light in which we present our
> Giovanni?
Well, I think we're all owed an apology for the Giovanni, but that's just
me being
flippant. Suppose that the sorcery practiced by the Tzimisce had been named
after another spiritual tradition, say," Judaism." Do you think people
might take
offense?
kcha...@my-dejanews.com
Incoming Death Mail from Justin. . .you shouldn't have been so insulting!
Kyle "The Sage" Charron
Justin R. Achilli
It's not the same -- Koldunic Sorcery (as a Discipline) is a magical
practice. I differentiate between Koldunic Sorcery (the Discipline) from
/koldunic sorcery/ (the tradition), which drives my editors up the wall,
much as Rich D. and I distinguished Kabbalah (the game-Trait system of
mysticism) from Judaism (the faith) in the Dark Ages Companion.
When you work with words all day long, the devil's in the details (to begin
mixing a metaphor) ;)
Sue Sullivan
glances to the left, where a very large animal protrudes from Moiner's
doo-doo.
"What is that?" the minor devil asks.
"A (choke) camel. I (gag) passed (gasp) it (more choking) with out
(gasp) any (yet more choking) problems."
There is a pause while Moiner continues to choke.
"So what are you trying to swallow now?" the minor devil asks.
"A (gasp) nat."
Get over your-self already. First of all, WW has bent over backwards to
make it clear it is just a game. Also, no where is it written that a
real world mystical tradition (not the use of the little "t") is the
same as a fiction, blood Vampire Magickal Whammy. It's just a game about
evil, nappy bastards - don't forget that.
Boedyn - the urge to pontificate out of his system now.
Moiner wrote:
>
> In article <79fa5v$f...@netaxs.com>, "Justin R. Achilli"
> <jach...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <moiner-ya02408000...@hiram.io.com> ,
> > moi...@iREMOVEMEo.com (Moiner) wrote:
> >
> flippant. Suppose that the sorcery practiced by the Tzimisce had been named
> after another spiritual tradition, say," Judaism." Do you think people
> might take
> offense?
>
Kintaro Oe
>> more from the real world the WoD is supposed to resemble. Catch 22, I'm
>> afraid, but as a personal preference, I like the resonance.
>
>It's harder for me to sustain the tension-- our ST finally did go the route of
>shifting the story 20 years into the future just to get away from all the
>things that were so confusing. I can go with the WOD as "a world that is
>indistinguishable from our own in appearance, but run differently behind
>the scenes", but what I see now is a world whose history, cosmology,
>politics, and events are *utterly* unlike our own, so much so that I fail
>the Thomas Covenant test, and just can't care.
I'd really like to know what the hell kind of WW books -you're-
buying. Everything I've read fits damn nice into the "dark underbelly"
of our world, and I own a lot of books.
seriously, -what- WoD are you looking at that it is so radically
different?
>> I'm aware of etiquette. I made no apology. If you're pressing for one, then
>> here: I'm sorry our ebullient Saint didn't draw the distinction between
>> fictional material and reality (which is a bit curious, given that the book
>> has _three_ sidebars that warn against such). Should I apologize to everyone
>> named John for the decidedly unwholesome light in which we present our
>> Giovanni?
>
>Well, I think we're all owed an apology for the Giovanni, but that's just
>me being
>flippant. Suppose that the sorcery practiced by the Tzimisce had been named
>after another spiritual tradition, say," Judaism." Do you think people
>might take
>offense?
not if there are disclaimers, they shouldn't. Not to mention it's
Koldunic Sorcery, not "All of Koldunic Tradition is X".
I'm glad that we actually have a blashpemous and vile magical
tradition. The unnatural nature of Thaum should have been more
emphasize, IMHO.
I wish people would grow the fuck up, already. Games and books are not
slanders and attacks but, games. People are touchy about the most
unusual or off-hand things (I'm not excluding myself, in case you want
to yell at me).
or maybe it's just me being bitter from lack of sleep, but I stand
with Justin on this one.
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> This was the Highlight of the book. Now I have another question how does
> this relate to the Baron Samedi Reference in CB: Giovanni? How do the Samedi
> fit in? Are they the Caps that didn't join the Sabbat, or something created
> by the Harbingers?
The Capuchin leads the Harbingers.
Funny thing... Lazarus is directly quoted as a recently re-awakened
Cappadocian in the Camarilly Guide.
Imagine.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Lydia M. (Brujah) |Verdandi Anagnost(Legion of Fate)
Madelynne (Malkavian)|Anjelika Cass (undisclosed)
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> As a person of slavic ancestry (whose grandfather still believes in the
> old ways and practices them, though it spooks the others in the nursing
> home) I was extremely offended at the treatment of Koldunic sorcery.
> Look at a few of the words used to describe it. Blasphemous. Vile. Uh.
> Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
> devils and sodomizing demons.
I think there's intended to be a difference between the Koldunic stuff
mortals do and the Koldunic stuff Tzimisce do...and if the Tzimisce do it,
it's blasphemous, vile and worse. A corruption of the natural form, as it
were.
> Of course, I am just a net pundit.
>
> SoK
> Who'd like to see a new treatment of the Verbena that includes all the
> shitty stuff that the Celts of old actually did. Y'know, baby eating,
> blood gulping, all that kewl stuff.
--
Stunt Borg
> >I can go with the WOD as "a world that is indistinguishable from
> >our own in appearance, but run differently behind the scenes",
> >but what I see now is a world whose history, cosmology, politics,
> >and events are *utterly* unlike our own, so much so that I fail
> >the Thomas Covenant test, and just can't care.
>
> I'd really like to know what the hell kind of WW books -you're-
> buying. Everything I've read fits damn nice into the "dark
> underbelly" of our world, and I own a lot of books.
>
> seriously, -what- WoD are you looking at that it is so radically
> different?
1. The WoD that ever-more-insistently tries to push Gothic-Punk
out of the 'dark underbelly' and into the life of every single
human being. You know, where it's not just a slight shift in
tone and mood, but rather a matter of the WoD being starkly,
totally *different* for every person living there?
Banes *are* in half the candy, apparently. *Everyone* is oppressed
and less happy than we are. Crime is worse (much worse). Wars are
bloodier (much bloodier). Hate is more rampant. Divisions are more
extreme. The WoD *is* going to hell in a handbasket.
As Bruce Baugh once said (paraphrase): "I think it's best to
consider that most of the good changes that happen in our world
don't carry over to the WoD". This was in response to discussion
about the *dramatic* crime drop that New York has recently seen. So,
apparently many of the authors intend for 'the good things' in our
world to be muted or nonexistent in the WoD. WoD New York should be
a seething crime complex no better than it was a decade ago (which,
remember, should be *worse* than even our New York was a decade
ago).
Pentex is everywhere. The Technocracy-as-written exists entirely to
subjugate and stupidify the populace into soulless drones. The Banal
crush creativity under their iron heel. Everything 1st edition knows
that business and technology are all just tools of evil vampires/the
Wyrm/Technocratic monsters/the Banal.
Everything is more desperate. Everything is more hateful. Everything
is exaggerated and distended into a nihilistic, dystopic parody of
anything you'd recognize as the real world.
Granted, you can just take most of that exaggeration and shove it.
You can work to keep the 'Darkness' in the WoD in the unseen
background where it more properly belongs, in my opinion. But the
theme of the works is that of a World of Complete Crappitude. It
is *not* 'our world with some nasty stuff in the shadows', it is
our world completely soaked, drenched, and overrun with shadows.
---------------------------------------------------------------
2. The WoD that has already has 3.5 games out of 5 devoted to
whole-cloth fictions with minor relation to anything going on
in the real world, other than to say 'this whole-cloth fiction
is responsible for disasters X and Y and Z'. The games are:
* 2 whole games: Werewolf and Changeling
* 3 half-games: the Gehenna-fixation half of Vampire,
the Otherworlds-fixation half of Mage, and the
Stygian-politics-fixation half of Wraith
Current development trends are apparently such that Wraith is
going to get kicked into the Mostly Whole-Cloth Fiction category.
While this is not inherently bad-or-good in and of itself, it is
definitely divergent from 'the real world' and generally
irrelevant to same. The emphasis of the WoD is ever more on:
* those funky Atlantean spirit-islands overrun with
vampires that will be blown up by ghostly
battleships and a-bombs
* which Antediluvian killed Kennedy? Film at 11!
* the Red-Shoe Saulot Diaries - unlife and detailed plans
of a mystical, evil monster gigolo
* GEHENNA! APOCALYPSE! RECKONING! MAELSTROM! WINTER! ...
uh, did I say 'GEHENNA!' yet?
* the vaporization of a Chantry not just on Mars, but on
Mars in a *parallel dimension*
* space fights between Cthuloid horrors and ultra-tech
ships around the non-existent moon of Mercury and
the equally non-present third body in the
Pluto-Charon system and the equally non-real
*DYSON* *SPHERE* surrounding Alpha Centauri B
* a non-real Digital Web that no human can interact with
yet an apparent 1/5+ of the entire Magely world
spends its time fighting to control
* does the opening of a giant chasm on a Never-Neverland
continent in a Never-Neverland realm bode big
changes for the Council of Nine Mystickal
Traditions? STAY TUNED!
* Realms where technology rains from the sky, and the
fighting that goes on to control such Realms
* fighting spirit baddies not even tied to anything
physical on the planet, then tracking them to their
spiritual homelands even further removed from
anything on Earth, and then kicking evil-spirit
boss-monsters completely divorced from anything
you'd maybe recognize as bearing a diaphanous
resemblance to some vague concept loosely related
to anything with *relevance* to the world
* repeat the above, but replace 'spirit' with 'spectre',
'homelands' with 'Labyrinths', and 'boss-monsters'
with 'Malfeans'
* splat politics and even *crossover* splat politics
Even the HUNTERS are now supernaturals.
That's all nifty enough. But trying to navigate a game through all
that, while trying to remain even *loosely* connected to issues of
relevance to the real world, is dang tough. Bit by bit, the WoD is
less about dealing with *personal* horror/honor/power/fear/whatever
in relation to the world, but now more about trumping the wierd
mojo of some Otherworldly supernatural politico on its own turf.
WoD it is. Fun it often can be. But - our world with stuff in the
shadows? Only if you define 'shadows' as 'everything of
significance'. Or only if you chuck much the above and fight like
mad to make the rest of it fundamentally tie-in to the real world
somehow.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
takes the latter tack, but it's a pain at times
Bruce Tzu
>1. The WoD that ever-more-insistently tries to push Gothic-Punk
>out of the 'dark underbelly' and into the life of every single
>human being. You know, where it's not just a slight shift in
>tone and mood, but rather a matter of the WoD being starkly,
>totally *different* for every person living there?
I really hated a lot of things about Vampire first edition when it came
out, but this is the part that I liked best. The World of Darkness is
not our world with monsters in the shadows, but a world changed by the
monsters' presence. From art and architecture to xenophobia and
zoophilia (he said, rummaging for a good "z" word and giving up after a
while), every facet of the World of Darkness is tainted, compressed,
distorted, and rearranged. As (IMHO) it should be.
In the real world, immigrant communities often go through periods of
hostile relations with the mainstream's authorities. The newcomers get
abused and exploited, and can't go to city hall, the police, and so on,
because the authorities are a big part of the problem. They have to fall
back on their own community's resources for whatever justice they may
find. This is the root from which political machines and ethnic mobs
spring.
In the World of Darkness, _everyone_ lives that way, because all
humanity is foreign to the forces that shape the world.
And I like that.
--
<*> ICQ 27599289 <*> http://www.sff.net/people/bruce-baugh
"I know it's a dead horse, but it makes a neat sound when I thump it."
-- David Bolack
Nich...@spes.demon.co.uk
>
>> As a person of slavic ancestry (whose grandfather still believes in the
>> old ways and practices them, though it spooks the others in the nursing
>> home) I was extremely offended at the treatment of Koldunic sorcery.
>> Look at a few of the words used to describe it. Blasphemous. Vile. Uh.
>> Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
>> devils and sodomizing demons.
>
>vampiric Discipline founded on them.
>
>stand by vile and blasphemous in that context.
>
>Regards,
>Justin
>
Saint of Killers is a professional victim in any case. The last time I
disagreed with me he sent me an email calling me 'an extremely hateful
person'. Strange for someone sending hate-mail.
Tosser.
Cheers,
N
Doug Kern
<xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> kcha...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > This was the Highlight of the book. Now I have another question how does
> > this relate to the Baron Samedi Reference in CB: Giovanni? How do the
Samedi
> > fit in? Are they the Caps that didn't join the Sabbat, or something created
> > by the Harbingers?
>
> The Capuchin leads the Harbingers.
>
> Funny thing... Lazarus is directly quoted as a recently re-awakened
> Cappadocian in the Camarilly Guide.
>
> Imagine.
Probally there is a connection to the Samedi then. The Capuchin did
get Baron Samedi that audience with Augustus after all. I always assumed
the Baron was one of his childer.
--
Doug Kern
AKA Monocle
ICQ Page #:8793444
dke...@idt.net
Homepage: http://idt.net/~dkern2
Come visit the Shrine to Blackarachnia!:http://idt.net/~dkern2/Blackarachnia
Eetr O Brain
Stunt Borg wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Kintaro Oe wrote:
>
> > >I can go with the WOD as "a world that is indistinguishable from
> > >our own in appearance, but run differently behind the scenes",
> > >but what I see now is a world whose history, cosmology, politics,
> > >and events are *utterly* unlike our own, so much so that I fail
> > >the Thomas Covenant test, and just can't care.
> >
> > I'd really like to know what the hell kind of WW books -you're-
> > buying. Everything I've read fits damn nice into the "dark
> > underbelly" of our world, and I own a lot of books.
> >
> > seriously, -what- WoD are you looking at that it is so radically
> > different?
>
> 1. The WoD that ever-more-insistently tries to push Gothic-Punk
> out of the 'dark underbelly' and into the life of every single
> human being. You know, where it's not just a slight shift in
> tone and mood, but rather a matter of the WoD being starkly,
> totally *different* for every person living there?
>
> Banes *are* in half the candy, apparently. *Everyone* is oppressed
> and less happy than we are. Crime is worse (much worse). Wars are
> bloodier (much bloodier). Hate is more rampant. Divisions are more
> extreme. The WoD *is* going to hell in a handbasket.
>
Ah, my boy. Now you know the true joy of paranoia.
The real world -IS- as bad as the WoD. In fact, it's worse. The only
reason we don't know is because They work so very hard to keep us in the
dark. You think banes are bad in candy? You just wait. The shit they're
stuffing into every orafice of our fat, ugly, consumer american bodies
will stun you and shatter your Pinkish brain when it is finally revealed
to you.
Watch your ass.
Deirdre M. Brooks
>In article <36BBB3D3...@teleport.com>, Marizhavashti Kali
><xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>> The Capuchin leads the Harbingers.
>> Funny thing... Lazarus is directly quoted as a recently re-awakened
>> Cappadocian in the Camarilly Guide.
>> Imagine.
> Probally there is a connection to the Samedi then. The Capuchin did
>get Baron Samedi that audience with Augustus after all. I always assumed
>the Baron was one of his childer.
The connection might be the other way around... The Samedi are connected
to the Harbingers.
Brandon Quina
> to the Harbingers.
The thing that gets me, though, is what do a group of
millennia old Cainites from a dead-clan want in the Sabbat? I
mean, if they were a small group of neonates out for revenge
like the Salubri antitribu; that I could understand. The
whole thing, though, something smells fishy.
I'm glad for that little note, though. That gives me plenty
of ammunition when I get someone wanting to play one of them.
I want these babies ALL to myself. ::smiles evilly::
Brandon,
The Saint of Killers
> Saint of Killers is a professional victim in any case. The last time I
> disagreed with me he sent me an email calling me 'an extremely hateful
> person'. Strange for someone sending hate-mail.
>
> Tosser.
>
> Cheers,
>
> N
God, you're so mean.
All you English People are the same! :(
SoK
Note the difference between English People, which is In Game Slang for
'folks named Nicholas who happen to live in the United Kingdom' and
english people, which is just folks from England.
Tiama'at
warriors (the Sword of Caine), who cut their teeth in a darwininstic war with
the Camarilla and various indenpendant ancients (Hunting Parties) since the
Anarch Uprising. Harbingers, Salubri, Angellus Ater, you use the best tool
for the job, and if the job calls for the death of a lot of people, then
something that claims to be so free is the perfect pawn.
*Brandon,
Matthew.
Fiber
> > Koldunic magic is pure DreamSpeaker animism. It's hardly summoning
> > devils and sodomizing demons.
> I caution you against confusing true Slavic animist practices with the
> vampiric Discipline founded on them.
> And it has nothing to do with Dreamspeakers. It's a Tzimisce creation, and I
> stand by vile and blasphemous in that context.
I don't have the New Sabbat Guide, i just have some Dark Ages books, but
the koldunic ritual of Kupala's Night it's vile and blasphemous ?????
Maybe the night koldunic magic it's vile and blasphemous, but the one
specified in Dark Ages it's well... It's sorcery ( it seems evil
sorcery, but that's fine with the Dark Ages background, all sorcery is
bad ) but nothing more...
By the way, i see Koldunic sorcery just like a new kind of Shamanism....
man...@geocities.com
kab...@bu.edu (Kintaro Oe) wrote:
> >Anyway, they are both with the Sabbat to persue their own agendas of revenge
> >really, its more an allience of convienience by both sides. Nor are they very
> >numerous.
>
> this still seems more than a bit -odd-. I'll have to wait and see how
> it's done in detail.
I would have liked to see a bit more on how the other Sabbat regard them. With
more than a bit of suscpition I would think.
> >The Tremere anti got turned into columns of ash, and the Ahrimanes don't get
a
> >mention at all as far as I've been able to tell.
>
> boo! hiss! I liked them. At least we can hold out hope that they will
> reappear/be left alone.
In the new ST Guide apparently they will get a mention although "not as an
active bloodline" whatever that means.
Still, stepping into the breach I've revised my own stuff and put it on my
website this morning.
> >The Rituals. Much more depth and detial and more rituals too. As for their
> >power, well the Valuderie is the most magicaly potent, these really are not
> >like Garou or Kuei-jin rituals, much more low key and mostly social. To get
> >them to work you need the rituals background which is supposed to represent
> >some kind of mystic connection. I'm so sure about that idea, I think I would
> >rather it just represnted knowing how to do it properly.
>
> I dunno either. I might end up requiring Thaum to get some -oomph- out
> of the rituals.
Well most effects are way below Thuam in power. In fact many are so social
that providing you can pull of the appearance of doing it no one will ever
know it the Preist had rituals or not.
> >Storyteller info. This is really good stuff. How to use the Sabbat, how to
> >run Sabbat games, unique roleplaying opportunities they present. How to make
> >Sabbat cities and how they make war on the Camarilla. Templates are providied
> >as is some details on the Revenants. The info here is really much higher
> >quality than the old Sabbat books.
>
> how much detail on the Revenants? anything new, as in what was not in
> Ghouls?
Little, less the G:FA actually, which it refers you to for more details.
Except the Grimaldis have contingency plans to go to the Venture or Giovanni.
Oh and the Zanatosa have lost Tzmimce.
Now THAT was careless.
Mant
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
Ratspaw
> The real world -IS- as bad as the WoD. In fact, it's worse. The only
> reason we don't know is because They work so very hard to keep us in the
> dark. You think banes are bad in candy? You just wait. The shit they're
> stuffing into every orafice of our fat, ugly, consumer american bodies
> will stun you and shatter your Pinkish brain when it is finally revealed
> to you.
I'm assuming this is an example of Eetr's weird sense of
humor and not a literal statement.
Ratspaw
The humble rat stands as proof that survival of the
fittest is about so much more than mere strength.
chan_t...@my-dejanews.com
dke...@idt.net (Doug Kern) wrote:
> In article <36BBB3D3...@teleport.com>, Marizhavashti Kali
> <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > This was the Highlight of the book. Now I have another question how does
> > > this relate to the Baron Samedi Reference in CB: Giovanni? How do the
> Samedi
> > > fit in? Are they the Caps that didn't join the Sabbat, or something
created
> > > by the Harbingers?
> >
> >
> > Funny thing... Lazarus is directly quoted as a recently re-awakened
> > Cappadocian in the Camarilly Guide.
> >
> > Imagine.
>
> Probally there is a connection to the Samedi then. The Capuchin did
> get Baron Samedi that audience with Augustus after all. I always assumed
> the Baron was one of his childer.
>
The Chan
Clayton A. Oliver
>> how much detail on the Revenants? anything new, as in what was not in
>> Ghouls?
>
>Little, less the G:FA actually, which it refers you to for more details.
>
>Except the Grimaldis have contingency plans to go to the Venture or Giovanni.
>
>Oh and the Zanatosa have lost Tzmimce.
>
>Now THAT was careless.
Maybe he wanted to be lost.
- C.
Brandon Quina
> > it's done in detail.
> I would have liked to see a bit more on how the other Sabbat regard them.
> With more than a bit of suscpition I would think.
The Quote from the Sabbat sums it up rather well, in my mind.
"They're no better than their soul-sucking sires, but at
least they want to do something about the goddamn Camarilla."
-- Lucretia, Sabbat Loyalist
> > >The Tremere anti got turned into columns of ash, and the Ahrimanes
> > >don't get a mention at all as far as I've been able to tell.
Columns of Ash *with faces*, that crumbled to the floor with
even the lightest touch; complete with some small personal
affects. I consider that important. This is more than just a
'burning'. That sidebar is freaky. Very freaky.
> In the new ST Guide apparently they will get a mention although "not as
> an active bloodline" whatever that means.
I imagine that it means that they'll be like the Blood
Brothers and Harbingers of Skulls; listed and described, but
better suited for the storyteller than for player characters,
complete with a note saying such.
That's just my personal feelings, though. Nothing offical,
semi-official, or anything about it. :)
> Well most effects are way below Thuam in power. In fact many are so
> social that providing you can pull of the appearance of doing it no one
> will ever know it the Preist had rituals or not.
Yep. I liked the change in rituals. By the way, what did
people think of the change in the Creation Rites?? Good or
bad, or possibly indifferent? I think it was a nice change,
"randomly embraced shoveheads" always struck me as beneath the
dignity for many clans.
> Oh and the Zanatosa have lost Tzmimce.
>
> Now THAT was careless.
I don't know if they lost him.... Or if he just got up and
walked away. ::shiver:: They keep putting more and more of
these scary signs of the last times, it seems.
Brandon,
Doug Kern
chan_t...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Probally there is a connection to the Samedi then. The Capuchin did
> > get Baron Samedi that audience with Augustus after all. I always assumed
> > the Baron was one of his childer.
> >
> The Capuchin is Lazarus
>
Yeah I know, it is clearly spelt out in CB Giovanni if you know where
to look. Just thought it would be better to state it this way then flat
out saying Lazarus got him the audience :D
Moiner
<su...@powernet.org> wrote:
> Boedyn stands, watching Moiner choke and gags. The The Lord of Cruelty
> glances to the left, where a very large animal protrudes from Moiner's
> doo-doo.
> "What is that?" the minor devil asks.
> "A (choke) camel. I (gag) passed (gasp) it (more choking) with out
> (gasp) any (yet more choking) problems."
> There is a pause while Moiner continues to choke.
> "So what are you trying to swallow now?" the minor devil asks.
> "A (gasp) nat."
>
> Get over your-self already. First of all, WW has bent over backwards to
> make it clear it is just a game. Also, no where is it written that a
> real world mystical tradition (not the use of the little "t") is the
> same as a fiction, blood Vampire Magickal Whammy. It's just a game about
> evil, nappy bastards - don't forget that.
>
> Boedyn - the urge to pontificate out of his system now.
How utterly fucking insulting.
At least you're honest about your malice and own up to it.
chan_t...@my-dejanews.com
bad_...@mindspring.com wrote:
> man...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> >> how much detail on the Revenants? anything new, as in what was not in
> >> Ghouls?
> >
> >Little, less the G:FA actually, which it refers you to for more details.
> >
> >Except the Grimaldis have contingency plans to go to the Venture or Giovanni.
> >
> >
> >Now THAT was careless.
>
>
> - C.
>
some subway workers under new york. I am thinking that he got up and left to
find something better to do then just lay on a slab and chill out.
The Chan
I can read your mind!
-Psycho Mantis, Metal Gear Solid
Brandon Quina
> eat some subway workers under new york. I am thinking that he got up and
> left to find something better to do then just lay on a slab and chill
> out.
Trust me, he was doing more than just laying on a slab and
chilling out. This was an antediluvian, and you can use a lot
of your discipline powers when your in torpor. Just take a
look at LB1, when they talk about the Castle that the Lasombra
Antediluvian hanged out in, and his presence therein -- even
when he was in Torpor.
Auspex and Animalism 10. Just *imagine* what those can do??
All you can do is imagine, too, as the disciplines in the two
Player Guides both only go up to level nine.
Brandon,