Nephandi questions
GidionTheDead
therefore...
What is a nephandus?
It appears to be an infernalistic mage, doing wraith (Malfean) worship, but is
that true?
Erek Black
>
> It appears to be an infernalistic mage, doing wraith (Malfean) worship,
but is
> that true?
Not Wraith worship, Demon worship. There are three types, some worship the
malfean "Demons" others worship more traditional Devils/Demons, and the
third worship some sort of bizarre, possibly mad but thoroughly impossible
to understand Demons in the outer darkness (think Call of Cthulu). These
Mages have thier souls (Avatars) messed with on a fundamental level and for
the rest of thier lives, whether they wish to or not, become the property
and pawns of Demons. Not fun, especially given that their ability to learn
spheres and Arete freezes, and the only way to continue thier growth as
mages is to bargain away thier souls. Nastly folks. Generally they work
toward the ends of the Demons they serve. The Malfeans thus support the
wyrm, the Devils are more traditiondinal and those that serve the outerlord
are difficult to distinguish from Marauders at times, which makes them VERY
difficult.
E
I. Inayat
"Erek Black" <Erek_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:v8bz8.253027$GF1.35...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
All of the things the Nephandi worship, however, are believed to be dreams of
the true Malfeans - of the Neverborn who brought the Underworld's Labyrinth into
being at the beginning of time. The Neverborn were never mortal - and were never
wraiths. They're something else altogether.
And when one of the sleeping Neverborn awakes, all that it dreams... disappears.
(Book of Madness Rev).
Infernalist mages, it should be noted, are different from Nephandi.
The Nephandi, regardless of sect, want one thing - to drag all of Creation
screaming down into the Pit, down into Oblivion. Motivation may vary... but in
the end, that doesn't matter. Their ultimate goals are the same.
Infernalists want power, revenge, refuge, security... they get it, after a
fashion, after sacrificing something to their infernal patrons - ie, they want
something that the infernal can provide. They're touched by the infernal... but
they don't go through the Nephandic Cauls, don't have their Avatars inverted by
the things the Nephandi serve.
The reaction of a typical infernalist to a Nephandus can best be compared to the
hatred that the general prison population has for child molesters - there are
some things you /do not do/, that make you outcast even among the damned.
Imran
Lee Deity
news:20020429082237...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Oh, the Nephandi are much worse. The Nephandi would like nothing more than
the utter destruction of all the world holds dear. Oh, and the destruction
of the world too if they can manage it. Your description kinda explains the
motivations, but the actual acts are different. There is a reason why the
Technocracy and Tradition alike almost immediately put aside differences to
hunt down and destroy Nephandi (and why Technocrats feel that the only way
to sanitise a Nephandi Labyrinth (Chantry) properly is to use Tactical
Nukes.
Help any?
--
Lee Deity/Kirby1024 - kirb...@hotmail.com
He's a sword-wielding drug-addicted cowboy with no name. She's a man-hating
cigar-chomping opera singer who can talk to animals. They fight crime!" -
They Fight Crime! (http://www.rain-street.org/fightcrime.htm)
Insane Ranter
"Lee Deity" <kirb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ccd5...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "GidionTheDead" <gidion...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020429082237...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> > Ok, I never touched a Mage book beside "Sorcerer" and the "Book of
> Worlds",
> > therefore...
> >
> > What is a nephandus?
> >
> > It appears to be an infernalistic mage, doing wraith (Malfean) worship,
> but is
> > that true?
>
> Oh, the Nephandi are much worse. The Nephandi would like nothing more than
> the utter destruction of all the world holds dear. Oh, and the destruction
> of the world too if they can manage it.
Tainted by the "wyrm" kill kill..
The Lighthouse Keeper
If there were clearly drawn lines betwixt good and evil in the World of
Darkness, the Nephandi would be at the furthest, blackest end of the "Evil"
spectrum with little or no company.
They are, for all intents and purposes, THE "bad guys" at the top of the
ziggurat of UNWHOLESOME in the World of Darkness, IMO.
All the best,
Shannon W. Hennessy
Ex Libris Nocturnis
http://www.nocturnis.net
Brian Merchant
The Malfeans that Nephandi serve are differernt than the Wraith Malfeans.
Mage Malfeans are insanely powerful beings that reside out in the deep reaches
of the Umbra and are kept out by the Horizon and (to some extent) the efforts
of the Technocracy. The Nephandi wish to destroy reality in order to allow
these beings in, where they will, presumably, form a new reality with the
Nephandi in charge. The relationship is less one of worship than of
servitude. The Nephandi would gladly overthrow their masters if they could,
and the Malfeans crush any Nephandi who even try.
I've always thought of the Malfeans as being rather like the Elder Gods from
Lovecraft. Beings so totally alien that even viewing them would drive you
insane.
--
Brian Merchant
Nobody really needs an unsafe homemade reactor
(especially one made of duct tape and foil)
--dangerouslaboratories.org
Brian Merchant
>> What is a nephandus?
>
>If there were clearly drawn lines betwixt good and evil in the World of
>Darkness, the Nephandi would be at the furthest, blackest end of the "Evil"
>spectrum with little or no company.
>
>They are, for all intents and purposes, THE "bad guys" at the top of the
>ziggurat of UNWHOLESOME in the World of Darkness, IMO.
But they are not the most dangerous. Celestial Choristers, Void Engineers,
and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1]. The Nephandi want the
world to hold together long enough for them to tear it down. A world ripped
apart by chaos is useless to them.
[1] They'll tear each other's throats out immediately afterwards, though.
David Johnston
>
> > What is a nephandus?
>
> If there were clearly drawn lines betwixt good and evil in the World of
> Darkness, the Nephandi would be at the furthest, blackest end of the "Evil"
> spectrum with little or no company.
Even if there aren't clearly drawn lines, they are still there.
Mant
An Infernalist is a Mage who has sold out to some power below. Usually
demonic but it could be Spectres or the Wyrm in theory (they all grant
invesments and have cults, but most humans aren't aware of the other
two). They usually bargain with them for personal power and have their
own goals. So someone might make a deal with a demon to get revenge on
someone who betrayed their Cabal.
Nephandi actively want to destroy reality, wipe it all out and leave
nothing. They can serve demons, the Wyrm or the Things From Outside
(Think Call of Cthullu), that last catagory probably covers the
Malfean Spectres. They go through a special ritual that 'inverts'
their Avatar.
Mant
Mant
> "Erek Black" <Erek_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:v8bz8.253027$GF1.35...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> > > What is a nephandus?
> > >
> > > It appears to be an infernalistic mage, doing wraith (Malfean) worship,
> > > but is that true?
> >
> > Not Wraith worship, Demon worship. There are three types, some worship the
> > malfean "Demons" others worship more traditional Devils/Demons, and the
> > third worship some sort of bizarre, possibly mad but thoroughly impossible
> > to understand Demons in the outer darkness (think Call of Cthulu). These
> > Mages have thier souls (Avatars) messed with on a fundamental level and for
> > the rest of thier lives, whether they wish to or not, become the property
> > and pawns of Demons. Not fun, especially given that their ability to learn
> > spheres and Arete freezes, and the only way to continue thier growth as
> > mages is to bargain away thier souls. Nastly folks. Generally they work
> > toward the ends of the Demons they serve. The Malfeans thus support the
> > wyrm, the Devils are more traditiondinal and those that serve the outerlord
> > are difficult to distinguish from Marauders at times, which makes them VERY
> > difficult.
>
> All of the things the Nephandi worship, however, are believed to be dreams of
> the true Malfeans - of the Neverborn who brought the Underworld's Labyrinth into
> being at the beginning of time. The Neverborn were never mortal - and were never
> wraiths. They're something else altogether.
>
> And when one of the sleeping Neverborn awakes, all that it dreams... disappears.
> (Book of Madness Rev).
I deeply dislike the idea that all the forces of the Wyrm and all the
Demons are nothing more than the dreams of critters from Wraith. Seems
even under Mage cosmology the spiritual embodyments of 'negative'
emotions and intellectual evil shouldn't need to rely on anything else
for their existence.
Mant
David Johnston
>
> In the borning days of the third millennium, The Lighthouse Keeper wrote:
> >> What is a nephandus?
> >
> >If there were clearly drawn lines betwixt good and evil in the World of
> >Darkness, the Nephandi would be at the furthest, blackest end of the "Evil"
> >spectrum with little or no company.
> >
> >They are, for all intents and purposes, THE "bad guys" at the top of the
> >ziggurat of UNWHOLESOME in the World of Darkness, IMO.
>
> But they are not the most dangerous. Celestial Choristers, Void Engineers,
> and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1].
Other way around, so far as I know. The CC, the VE, and the Marauder will
work together to stop a Nephandus.
Shane T. Graves
> "I. Inayat"
> > And when one of the sleeping Neverborn awakes, all that it dreams...
disappears.
> > (Book of Madness Rev).
> I deeply dislike the idea that all the forces of the Wyrm and all the
> Demons are nothing more than the dreams of critters from Wraith. Seems
> even under Mage cosmology the spiritual embodyments of 'negative'
> emotions and intellectual evil shouldn't need to rely on anything else
> for their existence.
Here's the thing. Not ALL of the Nephandi have their power stem from the
dreams of the Neverborn.
Though I'm really interested to see how waking up ALL of the Neverborn will
effect Wraith and Mage.
Insane Ranter
"Shane T. Graves" <theblackdo...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3Zoz8.3516$os7.12...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
What's a neverborn again?
Dan Krashin
> Brian Merchant wrote:
> > But they are not the most dangerous. Celestial Choristers, Void Engineers,
> > and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1].
>
> Other way around, so far as I know. The CC, the VE, and the Marauder will
> work together to stop a Nephandus.
I can see it now --
VE: Hold on, I'm getting confused. Are we working with the Nephandus
to stop the Marauder, or the other way around?
CC: Damn, I forgot. (Checks the script)
I could see it either way, actually. The Nephandus wants to send the
universe into an infinite death spiral; the Marauder just wants to rip
a hole in reality big enough for him, his trailer, and his imaginary
friends. The Marauder is probably more individually powerful, but may
be less implacably hostile... unless he's one of the many Marauders who
has concluded that people are the problem.
If you dig the concepts, check out the Book of Madness. It's really
good stuff.
Danny
Mant
> In the borning days of the third millennium, GidionTheDead wrote:
> >Ok, I never touched a Mage book beside "Sorcerer" and the "Book of Worlds",
> >therefore...
> >
> >What is a nephandus?
> >
> >It appears to be an infernalistic mage, doing wraith (Malfean) worship, but is
> >that true?
>
> The Malfeans that Nephandi serve are differernt than the Wraith Malfeans.
Yes, and no.
> Mage Malfeans are insanely powerful beings that reside out in the deep reaches
> of the Umbra and are kept out by the Horizon and (to some extent) the efforts
> of the Technocracy.
These are not Malfeans.
> The Nephandi wish to destroy reality in order to allow
> these beings in, where they will, presumably, form a new reality with the
> Nephandi in charge.
Not really, they pretty much want to wipe out everything and leave
nothing left.
> The relationship is less one of worship than of
> servitude. The Nephandi would gladly overthrow their masters if they could,
> and the Malfeans crush any Nephandi who even try.
Where do you get this from? It doesn't fit with what I have read. Is
it in the Revised Book of Madness.
> I've always thought of the Malfeans as being rather like the Elder Gods from
> Lovecraft. Beings so totally alien that even viewing them would drive you
> insane.
The Malfean Nephandi serve the beings from Malfeas, i.e. the servants
of the Wyrm like the Maeljin Incarna.
The Outsider Nephandi serve the Things From Beyond, but these are not
the Malfeans.
The Infernalist Nephandi serve demons.
The Malfeans are indeed the critters from Wraith, the Non-born the
really nasty things that crawled out of Oblivion. According to the
Book of Madness the demons, the Things From Beyond and the Wyrm
creatures are all juts dreams of the Malfean spectres and pale
reflections of thier power.
Mant
Brian Merchant
Not according to Book of Madness 2nd edition. The Marauders are so incredibly
dangerous to everything that even mortal enemies will band together to expel
them from the "local" area.
The Lighthouse Keeper
Engineers,
> > and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1].
I disagree.
I think the Nephandus would sit back while the Technocrat and Tradition
fools burned themselves out fighting a MARAUDER and then move in for the
kill on both of them.
Nephandi serve NO ONE but their masters. Sometimes that master is THEM, but
they have no predilections towards what we would consider "the positive"
whatsoever. Their fight is against the very fabric of our universe, and
anything that might expedite the ruin of said universe is pretty much okay
by them...
as long as it's not a RIVAL Nephandus. ;)
The Lighthouse Keeper
reaches
> > of the Umbra and are kept out by the Horizon and (to some extent) the
efforts
> > of the Technocracy.
>
> These are not Malfeans.
They're called "Lords of the Outer Darkness" by Revised Book of Madness, I
believe...
> > The Nephandi wish to destroy reality in order to allow
> > these beings in, where they will, presumably, form a new reality with
the
> > Nephandi in charge.
>
> Not really, they pretty much want to wipe out everything and leave
> nothing left.
Ergo, oblivion after a fashion...
> > The relationship is less one of worship than of
> > servitude. The Nephandi would gladly overthrow their masters if they
could,
> > and the Malfeans crush any Nephandi who even try.
>
> Where do you get this from? It doesn't fit with what I have read. Is
> it in the Revised Book of Madness.
MANY Nephandi WILLINGLY serve their masters, giving themselves mind, body
and soul to their agenda.
Nephandi is nothing more than a blanket term for a group of magi. Kind of
like "Hindu" is a blanket term for literally thousands of equally diverse
religions.
> > I've always thought of the Malfeans as being rather like the Elder Gods
from
> > Lovecraft. Beings so totally alien that even viewing them would drive
you
> > insane.
>
> The Malfean Nephandi serve the beings from Malfeas, i.e. the servants
> of the Wyrm like the Maeljin Incarna.
AKA, "Umbrood" as seen in Chapter Four of BoM:Rev or the Maeljin Incarna
from Book of the Wyrm, 2nd Ed.
> The Outsider Nephandi serve the Things From Beyond, but these are not
> the Malfeans.
>
> The Infernalist Nephandi serve demons.
>
> The Malfeans are indeed the critters from Wraith, the Non-born the
> really nasty things that crawled out of Oblivion. According to the
> Book of Madness the demons, the Things From Beyond and the Wyrm
> creatures are all juts dreams of the Malfean spectres and pale
> reflections of thier power.
Which is absolutely bone-chilling if you think about it for too long...
The Lighthouse Keeper
Agreed, and true enough. There are only a COUPLE of "antagonists" in the
World of Darkness who want nothing short of the routing of Reality and
Creation, bruised, battered and beaten through the gates of nothingness and
into the abyss of oblivion...
and the Nephandi are one of them. Arguably the camp most likely to achieve
their ends given their influence and abilities.
All the best,
Shannon W. Hennessy
Ex Libris Nocturnis
Mant
> In the borning days of the third millennium, David Johnston wrote:
> >Brian Merchant wrote:
> >>
> >> In the borning days of the third millennium, The Lighthouse Keeper wrote:
> >> >They are, for all intents and purposes, THE "bad guys" at the top of the
> >> >ziggurat of UNWHOLESOME in the World of Darkness, IMO.
> >>
> >> But they are not the most dangerous. Celestial Choristers, Void Engineers,
> >> and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1].
> >
> >Other way around, so far as I know. The CC, the VE, and the Marauder will
> >work together to stop a Nephandus.
>
> Not according to Book of Madness 2nd edition. The Marauders are so incredibly
> dangerous to everything that even mortal enemies will band together to expel
> them from the "local" area.
Ditto the Nephandi.
Making any kinds of generalisation about what four random Mages from
each faction will do seems kinda daft. The Marauder will go for the
Nephandus, but apart from that? Seems like the smart guys would leave
them to it :)
However the members of the Trads will have some limited dealings with
saner Maruaders (like the Butcher Street Regulars) while nobody will
deal with the Nepahndi at all. Marauders are dangerous, Nephandi are
evil.
Mant
nic
> > > But they are not the most dangerous. Celestial Choristers, Void
> Engineers,
> > > and Nephandi will work together to stop a Marauder[1].
>
> I disagree.
>
> I think the Nephandus would sit back while the Technocrat and Tradition
> fools burned themselves out fighting a MARAUDER and then move in for the
> kill on both of them.
Whilst they would like to they may not get the choice, marauders
attack nephandi on sight. The CC and VE would probably join in but
individuals may have other priorities or approaches.
--
Nic
Cyron Netrunner
news:3Zoz8.3516$os7.12...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> "Mant"
> > "I. Inayat"
> Though I'm really interested to see how waking up ALL of the Neverborn
will
> effect Wraith and Mage.
or the rest of the WoD ... all evil powers but the (now wake) Maelfan
Specters gone ... there would be more then one akuma, BSD, nephandus, bane
mummy, whatever. beeing rather helpless .... untill they find out how to
serve their "true" masters of course .... bye bye WoD ...
Mant
Big nasty spectre that lives at the bottom of the Labyrinth and
crawled out of Oblivion.
Mant
Stephenls
damn you all for having a conversation about the Nephandi while I was
away. Well, I'm late but I'm gonna post anyway. Ha!
GidionTheDead wrote:
> What is a nephandus?
The Nephandi (singular Nephandus) are, as has been explained by other
people, possibly the worst bad guys among all the bad guys of the WoD.
Even other bad guys dislike them. They are divided, somewhat, into
three sects and two castes.
The defining characteristic of the Nephandi is a ritual they all go
through, whereby they visit a place called the Caul. The Caul is
essentially a sort of spiritual rebirth chamber, or possibly many
spiritual rebirth centers, that must be accessed by certain bloody and
evil rituals. In the Caul, a Nephandus' soul and Avatar is inverted,
turned inside out, ripped apart, and then reconstituted, so that it
becomes the opposite of what it used to be and the antithesis of all
that is good. It should be noted that the Cauls can only be survived if
they're entered voluntarily - although every nephandus is, now and
forever, irredeemably evil, they all made the choice to become so.
There is no redemption for those who have been to the Cauls [1].
The two castes of Nephandi are the Barabbi (singular Barabbus) and the
Widderslainte. A Barabbus is a mage who was once uncorrupted, but who
has entered the Cauls during his or her current lifetime. Typically, a
Barabbus was once a traditionalist or a technocrat, and they often
remain as spies in the organization they were once loyal to.
A Widderslainte is the reincarnation of a Barabbus. Most of the time,
when a Nephandus dies, the soul does not reincarnate, but rather goes to
an afterlife (presumably an exceedingly unpleasant one), but when one
does, the child is born irredeemable. Widderslainte are often sought by
other Nephandi and trained until they are old enough to start doing
actual damage, and they are almost always the most gifted and
enthusiastic of the fallen.
Faction-wise, the Nephandi are divided loosely into the Infernal, the
Malfeans, and the K'llashaa.
Infernal Nephandi worship and serve beings we would, mistakenly, call
demons or devils. Typically, Infernals are the Nephandi who have the
least problem existing in human society. They often believe that
they've sold their souls to Hell (or /a/ Hell, depending on what culture
they're from) for temporal power. They often take a business-like
approach to the destruction of everything good and pure, starting cults
that masquerade as support groups, etc. They also tend to be
power-mongering, backstabbing bastards. Hermetic barabbi tend towards
the Infernal. The beings they worship tend to organize themselves into
complex courts. However, every demon worshipped by Infernal Nephandi is
actually a mask for other, more primal powers.
Malfean Nephandi have little or nothing to do with Malfean spectres from
wraith. Rather, Malfeans are those Nephandi who worship the
destructive/corruptive force the werewolves call the Wyrm, or the Wyrm's
various Maejelin Incarna and Urge Wyrms. They start suicide cults and
stage bloody neo-pagan rituals because it gives the papers something bad
to say about crystal wavers.
K'llashaa Nephandi (also known as Outsiders, possibly because it's
easier to spell) serve the Things That Must Not Be, the Lords of the
Outer Dark. K'llashaa inflict suffering on the world in with almost
mechanical precision, trying to open a gate to let their masters back
Inside. K'llashaa tend towards being quite insane, violent, and vulgar
in their magic, and many of them are trapped, with their masters, on the
other side of the horizon.
It is common for Nephandi to divide each other into a series of ranks
and categories, as follows, although the divisions aren't always
clear-cut
Lowest on the latter are the pawns, mostly consisting of unAwakened
mortals who think they're serving the KKK or the Fourth Reich or
Benevolent Society of Roses or Black Dog Game Factory, or Awakened mages
who aren't really sure yet what they've gotten into. They tend to die a
lot.
Shaytans are violent enforcer Nephandi with little interest in politics
or philosophy. They tend to kill a lot.
Adsinistrati are the next rung on the ladder, those in the business of
recruitment.
Prelati are the outer circle of the Nephandic hierarchy, not unlike,
say, the Archons of the Camarilla. They go places and tell people to do
things, but arguably they're carrying out the will of the Gilledeans.
There are only supposed to be thirteen Gilledeans, not all of them
alive, and they're whatever constitutes the Nephandi "government".
Badly organized and insane with paranoia, they are nevertheless quite
intelligent, influential, and personally powerful.
Lastly are the Aswadim. Named after al-Aswad the First Nephandus, they
are arguably the most powerful of the Nephandi, but they stay that way
by remaining mostly uninvolved with politics. Mostly, they wander the
world acting as teachers to promising young Widderslainte, although they
also wreak seemingly random havoc and scare the fuck out of anyone who
gets in their way.
Huh. That was long.
[1] At least two exceptions exist to this rule. One is given in Guide
to the Traditions, a Widderslainte who volunteered for Gigul (the
soul-death) and in doing so cleansed her Avatar (but not quickly enough
to save herself). The other is Amanda, another Widderslainte who is the
subject of most of the fiction at the beginnings of first and second
edition Mage books. Apparently, some funky Mind/Spirit rote was pulled
off to give her Avatar amnesia until she was old enough to fully
understand the choice between her past and her present, and she chose
Not Being Evil.
--
Stephenls
"Current music: Sympathy for the Devil. I honestly didn't plan that."
Geek
Arguing with Stephenls about White Wolf canon is a lot like arguing
with God over the landscaping of heaven. -Richard Clayton
GidionTheDead
Good to see you back again!
Stephenls
> Whow. That was a good answer.
Actually it's not. I left out the Nephandi goals, tactics, and
Qlippothic Spheres. Stupid me for being tired and forgetting.
--
Stephenls
Mant
<snip>
> Faction-wise, the Nephandi are divided loosely into the Infernal, the
> Malfeans, and the K'llashaa.
I thought the K'llashaa were just a subset of the Outsiders who are
particularly whacked. They were the really nutty ones who had totally
lost their grip.
Mant
> Infernal Nephandi worship and serve beings we would, mistakenly, call
> demons or devils. Typically, Infernals are the Nephandi who have the
> least problem existing in human society. They often believe that
> they've sold their souls to Hell (or /a/ Hell, depending on what culture
> they're from) for temporal power. They often take a business-like
> approach to the destruction of everything good and pure, starting cults
> that masquerade as support groups, etc. They also tend to be
> power-mongering, backstabbing bastards. Hermetic barabbi tend towards
> the Infernal. The beings they worship tend to organize themselves into
> complex courts. However, every demon worshipped by Infernal Nephandi is
> actually a mask for other, more primal powers.
Is this from BoM Revided? I mean since Demons really exits in the WoD
and you really can sell your sould to them, how come the Infernalist
Nephandi can't be serving them?
Of course if you buy the "Dreams of a Dead Thing" theory /all/ the
creature the Nephandi serve are masks for an other power.
Mant
Stephenls
> I thought the K'llashaa were just a subset of the Outsiders who are
> particularly whacked. They were the really nutty ones who had totally
> lost their grip.
As of the Book of Mirrors (I think), K'llashaa is just another, more
difficult, way to say Outsider. It certainly deals with it that way in
the BoMRev.
Then again, the BoMRev isn't all that big on the Umbra. It might be
that Outsider is the technical name for K'llashaa that are, y'know,
Outside.
> Is this from BoM Revided? I mean since Demons really exits in the WoD
> and you really can sell your sould to them, how come the Infernalist
> Nephandi can't be serving them?
Essentially, High Umbral demons who inhabit hell realms (or Yama Kings
or whatever) don't have access to Cauls, and they're much more
interested in power-jockeying and endless politics than they are in
setting up elite Universe Destruction Task Forces. Mages who serve
actual demons are covered in chapter 3 of the Book of Madness Revised --
they're called infernalists and there's a whole soul-trade system and
everything.
> Of course if you buy the "Dreams of a Dead Thing" theory /all/ the
> creature the Nephandi serve are masks for an other power.
True.
I'm still not clear on whether Dreams of a Dead Thing is canon or not.
In the Book of Mirrors, it's a mostly-IC sidebar, but said sidebar was
copied almost word for word into the actual OOC text of Book of Madness
Revised.
Personally I think it's great if /some/ of the things the Nephandi serve
are the manifestations of Malfean dreams, but some of them should be
something else.
--
Stephenls
martin.sennett
> particularly whacked. They were the really nutty ones who had totally
> lost their grip.
Having just checked the BoM, I'd have to say that they're the same thing.
Only difference is that Outsiders is an easier name to pronounce. They're
all nuts, in that they've promised themselves to the restoration of the
Lords of the Outer Dark to their rightful places as masters of humanity with
dominion over all. Their masters aren't remotely human, so the Outsiders
try to copy them. Hence, raving batshit madness in the Nephandi stylee.
<snip> Infernalists...The beings they worship tend to organize themselves
into
> > complex courts. However, every demon worshipped by Infernal Nephandi is
> > actually a mask for other, more primal powers.
>
> Is this from BoM Revided? I mean since Demons really exits in the WoD
> and you really can sell your sould to them, how come the Infernalist
> Nephandi can't be serving them?
>
> Of course if you buy the "Dreams of a Dead Thing" theory /all/ the
> creature the Nephandi serve are masks for an other power.
Slight blurring of the lines here. Malfeans from Wraith are not the beings
served by Malfean Nephandi. MNs worship the Wyrm. Taking the *very* wide
view, all evil-doers serve the Wyrm, one way or another. If you want to
take the wide view, fine, but the demons served by Infernalist Nephandi are
not Banes or any other kind of Wyrm spirit. Its like Time-Warner and AOL.
Same goal (make money), different departments, if you get what I mean. Only
the one thing by legal technicalities (possibly the 5th kind of lies).
-Tiberius
Mant
> Mant wrote:
>
> > I thought the K'llashaa were just a subset of the Outsiders who are
> > particularly whacked. They were the really nutty ones who had totally
> > lost their grip.
>
> As of the Book of Mirrors (I think), K'llashaa is just another, more
> difficult, way to say Outsider. It certainly deals with it that way in
> the BoMRev.
>
> Then again, the BoMRev isn't all that big on the Umbra. It might be
> that Outsider is the technical name for K'llashaa that are, y'know,
> Outside.
OK. It used to be the ones who acted like Marauders but were not
immune to Paradox and tended to have quick, messy ends.
> > Is this from BoM Revided? I mean since Demons really exits in the WoD
> > and you really can sell your sould to them, how come the Infernalist
> > Nephandi can't be serving them?
>
> Essentially, High Umbral demons who inhabit hell realms (or Yama Kings
> or whatever) don't have access to Cauls, and they're much more
> interested in power-jockeying and endless politics than they are in
> setting up elite Universe Destruction Task Forces.
This makes some sense. After all as spirits that draw strength from
human evil ending the world isn't something I would think they want.
Also I really think with these guys you should make the Faustian deal
and sign in blood rather than go into the Giger-esque Cauls.
> Mages who serve
> actual demons are covered in chapter 3 of the Book of Madness Revised --
> they're called infernalists and there's a whole soul-trade system and
> everything.
Is this the Infernal Investment thing?
Since Spectres and Wyrm spirits can also 'grant' Investments and run
cults I would think this sort of deal-making and service wouldn't be
limited to the Astral Demons.
> > Of course if you buy the "Dreams of a Dead Thing" theory /all/ the
> > creature the Nephandi serve are masks for an other power.
>
> True.
>
> I'm still not clear on whether Dreams of a Dead Thing is canon or not.
> In the Book of Mirrors, it's a mostly-IC sidebar, but said sidebar was
> copied almost word for word into the actual OOC text of Book of Madness
> Revised.
In the old one is was definately a theory. WW is pretty bad at
dropping stuff into OOC text, writing it as fact and it still just
being opinion (DSotBH was probably the worsed offender)
> Personally I think it's great if /some/ of the things the Nephandi serve
> are the manifestations of Malfean dreams, but some of them should be
> something else.
I don't see why some just don't serve the Neverborn directly, Spectral
Nephandi or however you would catagorise them.
Mant
Mant
> > I thought the K'llashaa were just a subset of the Outsiders who are
> > particularly whacked. They were the really nutty ones who had totally
> > lost their grip.
>
> Having just checked the BoM, I'd have to say that they're the same thing.
> Only difference is that Outsiders is an easier name to pronounce. They're
> all nuts, in that they've promised themselves to the restoration of the
> Lords of the Outer Dark to their rightful places as masters of humanity with
> dominion over all. Their masters aren't remotely human, so the Outsiders
> try to copy them. Hence, raving batshit madness in the Nephandi stylee.
In the old BoM they were different.
> <snip> Infernalists...The beings they worship tend to organize themselves
> into
> > > complex courts. However, every demon worshipped by Infernal Nephandi is
> > > actually a mask for other, more primal powers.
> >
> > Is this from BoM Revided? I mean since Demons really exits in the WoD
> > and you really can sell your sould to them, how come the Infernalist
> > Nephandi can't be serving them?
> >
> > Of course if you buy the "Dreams of a Dead Thing" theory /all/ the
> > creature the Nephandi serve are masks for an other power.
>
> Slight blurring of the lines here. Malfeans from Wraith are not the beings
> served by Malfean Nephandi.
They are if the creature of the Wyrm are nothing more than the dreams
of the Malfean Spectres, which the Book of Madness and Book of Mirrors
both mention as being at least possible.
> MNs worship the Wyrm. Taking the *very* wide
> view, all evil-doers serve the Wyrm, one way or another. If you want to
> take the wide view, fine, but the demons served by Infernalist Nephandi are
> not Banes or any other kind of Wyrm spirit.
Nobody said they were.
Although aparently in the new Book of Madness Infernalist /Nephandi/
as opposed to just plain Infernalists don't serve Demons at all. They
just think they do.
Mant
Stephenls
> Is this the Infernal Investment thing?
Actually it's the Soul Trade thing, which is kinda like Infernal
Investments except that you split your soul apart and sell it bit by
bit. It's quite nifty.
> Since Spectres and Wyrm spirits can also 'grant' Investments and run
> cults I would think this sort of deal-making and service wouldn't be
> limited to the Astral Demons.
The only other batch of demons that get Soul Trade is the Yama Kings,
although the system is disconnected enough that you could use it instead
of Soul Trade.
> In the old one is was definately a theory. WW is pretty bad at
> dropping stuff into OOC text, writing it as fact and it still just
> being opinion (DSotBH was probably the worsed offender)
They're improving though, except for this instance.
> I don't see why some just don't serve the Neverborn directly,
> Spectral Nephandi or however you would catagorise them.
That's a good point.
Stephenls
> The only other batch of demons that get Soul Trade is the Yama Kings,
> although the system is disconnected enough that you could use it
> instead of Soul Trade.
Gah.
"...instead of /investments/..." rather.
Mant
> Mant wrote:
>
> > Is this the Infernal Investment thing?
>
> Actually it's the Soul Trade thing, which is kinda like Infernal
> Investments except that you split your soul apart and sell it bit by
> bit. It's quite nifty.
I thought Investments did that too? You can sell it piecemeal or all
out. You can get more by doing stuff for your master, or selling off
more of your soul. How is Soul Trade different?
> > Since Spectres and Wyrm spirits can also 'grant' Investments and run
> > cults I would think this sort of deal-making and service wouldn't be
> > limited to the Astral Demons.
>
> The only other batch of demons that get Soul Trade is the Yama Kings,
> although the system is disconnected enough that you could use it instead
> of Soul Trade.
I'd forgotten the Yama Kings, yet another group you can sell out to
for power.
Damn, it seems that anyone seeking to make a pact with the forces of
darkness in the WoD is just plain spoilt for choice :)
Mant
Stephenls
> I thought Investments did that too? You can sell it piecemeal or all
> out. You can get more by doing stuff for your master, or selling off
> more of your soul. How is Soul Trade different?
It's quantified. Unless we're thinking of the same thing.
Lessee...
You have a number of Soul Points equal to [(Willpower + Arete) x 10].
Specific Investments cost specific amounts of points - Abilities cost 2
points per 3 dots, Attributes cost 1 point per dot or one point per 3
dots above 5, a clean aura costs 10 points, youth costs 1 point per
decade, etc. There are other, more flashy powers. Most Investments
come with a sign that you have them - Infernal Appearance would look
unearthly, for example.
When you actually deal with whatever devil you're getting the stuff
from, you negotiate each Investment individually, represented by a roll
of Intelligence + Law (or other combinations of abilities, like Wits +
Enigmas, depending on the demon), but the ST keeps the result a secret.
Then apply the following chart:
Botch - roll a die, triple the result, and add that many points to the
cost of the Investment.
Failure - roll a die and add that many points to the cost of the
Investment.
1 Success - Pay listed point cost.
2 Successes - Reduce point cost of Investment by 2.
3 Successes - Halve point cost, round up.
4 Successes - Investment point cost is one third normal, round up.
5 Successes - Investment is free.
If it's a player making the deal, he never gets to know how many soul
points he has left.
Once a mage makes as many deals as he has points of Arete, his Avatar
belongs to the demon and his Arete can't be raised, he can't recharge
his Quint except at Nodes consecrated to that demon, and can only raise
his Spheres through Investments. His Avatar starts pushing him towards
making more deals, and after [Avatar + Arete] years, he starts to lose
points of Avatar at one per year. Once those are gone, he starts to
lose Arete at one point per year, until he's left only with
Investments. Anyone with 0 Soul Points has no free will and is a puppet
of the demon who owns his soul.
The system can be found in Book of Madness Revised, Dragons of the East,
and 1000 Hells. I think each one is slightly different -- and the Wu
Keng can trade other things instead of Soul Points.
> I'd forgotten the Yama Kings, yet another group you can sell out to
> for power.
> Damn, it seems that anyone seeking to make a pact with the forces of
> darkness in the WoD is just plain spoilt for choice :)
Heh. You /could/ put it that way...