The Seventh Generation
Richard Clayton
in /Werewolf/ sourcebooks, but I'm not clear on precisely what it is,
other than an evil conspiracy of some sort.
--
Richard Clayton (for...@earthlink.net)
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
-- Aldous Huxley
Brandon Quina
news:3C35FD5C...@earthlink.net...
> What is the Seventh Generation? I've read several references to it
> in /Werewolf/ sourcebooks, but I'm not clear on precisely what it is,
> other than an evil conspiracy of some sort.
I believe they're some kind of Organization of Wyrm-corrupted Child
Molestors, but I could be wrong.
Brandon,
Dyami
there is information in the Rage Across New York source book, but, I have
seen it mentioned in the A World of Rage sourcebook that they were destroyed
by Albrecht. But the best material about them can be found within Rage
Across New York, there's about 4 or 5 pages worth, quite detailed.
"Brandon Quina" <bran...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wgmZ7.365916$er5.9...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Richard Clayton
> I believe they're some kind of Organization of Wyrm-corrupted Child
> Molestors, but I could be wrong.
Yeeeee. That is truly horrible. Then again, we ARE talking about the
Wyrm...
Mant
Well in part. They were a particularly nasty Wyrm cult, very much old
boys club mostly with some nutty guys who did abductions. They were
big on child abuse and claimed responsability for all sorts of evil
(like sexism) and having been around for centuries but probably thats
mostly talk.
AFAIK they are past tense know, the new Silver Fang king having
organised their destruction. They turned up breifly in Mage where they
pissed the hell out of the CoX and ended up starting the Children's
Crusade.
They were always better Mage baddies anyway since they were mostly
humans with a few gifts from the Wyrm (Investments in BotW 2nd ed) and
delt more in influnce and poltics. None of them could fight a Garou.
Mant
Ethan Skemp
man...@mants-lair.org.uk wrote on 1/4/02 7:46 PM:
> Well in part. They were a particularly nasty Wyrm cult, very much old
> boys club mostly with some nutty guys who did abductions. They were
> big on child abuse and claimed responsability for all sorts of evil
> (like sexism) and having been around for centuries but probably thats
> mostly talk.
Pretty much. They were one of the organizations that kind of contributed to
the fallacious idea that "without no servitors of the Wyrm, horrible things
like child abuse wouldn't happen." It was... kind of tasteless.
> AFAIK they are past tense know, the new Silver Fang king having
> organised their destruction. They turned up breifly in Mage where they
> pissed the hell out of the CoX and ended up starting the Children's
> Crusade.
Should I make a Jesus DeSade reference here, or not? Oh... too late.
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
James Kiley
Ethan Skemp <fen...@madison.main.nc.us> wrote:
>in article 62c8370b.02010...@posting.google.com, Mant at
>man...@mants-lair.org.uk wrote on 1/4/02 7:46 PM:
>> They were big on child abuse and claimed responsability for all
>> sorts of evil (like sexism) and having been around for centuries
>> but probably thats mostly talk.
>Pretty much. They were one of the organizations that kind of contributed to
>the fallacious idea that "without no servitors of the Wyrm, horrible things
>like child abuse wouldn't happen." It was... kind of tasteless.
I think if you treat them as a group of Wyrm-driven child molesters they
are a /great/ villain group. If you treat them as a symptom of the Wyrm,
they work. If you treat all child abuse as the work of the Wyrm on earth,
then yes, they suck.
jk
Mant
I agree. Its a tricky distinction to get across but an important one.#
I do think with a little work they were a much, much more *horrifying*
villian group than the rather comic-booky Pentex can ever be.
Mant
Son Gohan
<fen...@madison.main.nc.us> wrote:
"There I was, fellating a billy goat and injecting a syringe full of
heroin into my eyeball, when these people came in and started shooting
everyone! Aren't we even safe at our own orgies any more?"
Sean Riley
news:62c8370b.02010...@posting.google.com...
> I do think with a little work they were a much, much more *horrifying*
> villian group than the rather comic-booky Pentex can ever be.
Read Subsidaries: A Guide to Pentex. In particular, read the Magadon
chapter.
Trust me. This stuff makes Pentex more and more horrifying.
Cheers,
Sean.
Mant
> "Mant" <man...@mants-lair.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:62c8370b.02010...@posting.google.com...
>
> > I do think with a little work they were a much, much more *horrifying*
> > villian group than the rather comic-booky Pentex can ever be.
>
> Read Subsidaries: A Guide to Pentex. In particular, read the Magadon
> chapter.
I've flicked through it, but mostly looked at the Black Dog bit (which
was very funny).
> Trust me. This stuff makes Pentex more and more horrifying.
Part of Pentex's problem is that Werewolf get all the villians that
are total black hats in the service of the Big Evil. Even if they are
well done its not something I'm keen on anymore.
Personnaly I've taken to dumping the whole BSDs/Nephandi/Spectres/etc
loose their free will angle, and play up the evil for personal and
philosphical reasons. I also tone down the "we are evil so we have to
be EEEEVIL all the time". So in my setting plenty of Dancers don't
abuse their kinfolk (at least no more than other Garou) and some
genuienly love them, even if its a twisted kind of love. Doesn't stop
them being evil to other people, or trying to bring about the
Apocalypse.
Its a case of which guy is more scary, they black clad evil priest
cackling maniaclly about his evil plot or the sadistic killer who
after comitting a murder goes home to his loving wife and kids. I find
the latter much more horrifying, yet in WW's setting so many villians
are the former. Partly I think becuase the world is pretty morally
grey, so they feel the need to make the bad guys blacker than black
with more black on top.
Pentex is one of the worst offenders becuase its so clearly being evil
for the sake of it. A lot of its actvities are going to loose it
money, but it does them anyway jusy to ruin the environment or make
people's lives more miserable. The portrayal of the organisation has
got a lot better, and it can be horrifying, but I find it hard to take
seriously or use becuase its motivations don't make any sense. Sure
they have been talked about in the BotW, but the Omega Plan is
laughable.
As presentead the 7th Generation are similar, but I find them easier
to turn into something useful. The world really does have peadophile
rings, but lacks companies trying to bring about ecological
armegeddon.
Mant
BA
>the fallacious idea that "without no servitors of the Wyrm, horrible things
>like child abuse wouldn't happen." It was... kind of tasteless.
I agree. Which is pretty much the reason why the Children's Crusade never found
any conclusive proof that the Seventh Generation existed.
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them,
but more often they work in absolute darkness."
Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
BA
>loose their free will angle, and play up the evil for personal and
>philosphical reasons.
Black Spirals still have free will. They're just a) insane and b) fanatical
followers of a religion whose tennets encourage them to commit acts of torture,
murder, rape and defilement.
Most Spectres still have some degree of free will (otherwise, stuff like the
redeption of Mortwrights and Dopplegangers wouldn't be possible). It's just
that they are, litterally, all of a person's dark and destructive (including
self destructive) impulses brought to the surface and given control. The
exception are Shades, whose minds have been totally fried. They are more like
rabid animals than sentient beings.
The Nephracks are those who willingly and eagerly serve as the priests of
Oblivion. Just like the Black Spirals, they are religious fanatics. It's just
that their religion desires that the universe be swallowed by Oblivion.
Malfeans no longer think in a way that humans would recognize.
The Nephandi have had their souls turned inside out, and like the Nephracks,
the consider it their holy duty to bring about the end of all that exists.
>Pentex is one of the worst offenders becuase its so clearly being evil
>for the sake of it.
No. The leaders of Pentex are being "evil" for the sake of a) money and greed,
b) personal power, and/or c) religious devotion.
Peter Culliford shares the Wyrm's vision of desolate future -- a future in
which he shall be one of the rulers.
The same for Benjamin Rushing. He was raised worshiping the Wyrm. He's also
deeply ambitious.
Nobody knows what Adrian Newberry's motivations are. There are some hints that
he wants to be immortal. If so, Pentex offers him the resources he needs.
Harold Zettler is a vampire, and even before that he was still a sociopathic
sadist. For him, Pentex is a way of causing pain, as well as giving him the
same power and influence many elder vampires seek.
Danforth Stern is a madman who believes that his work with Pentex will allow
him to prepair the earth to welcome it's new alien overlords.
James Kiker and Kiro Yamazaki are in it for personal power, the same way a lot
of real world corperate directors are. Simalarly, Chase Lamont is just a
selfish, greedy man.
For Kathryn Mollet and Francesco, Pentex and its undertakings are part of their
faith. Kathryn's soul is pledged to the Defiler Wyrm, and she is its willing
servent. Francesco is a Black Spiral Dancer.
No one knows what Franklin Rubin's story is.
The same throughout their subsidiaries. The guy who founded Magadon just wanted
to be able to conduct his germ warfare experiments on human test subjects --
the same way real world German and Japanese (and God knows who all else) did
and probably continue to do -- without worrying about people funding him
getting squeemish.
Employees are either willing agents who do so out of one of the above
motivations, or people who unknowingly serve the Wyrm out of simple apathy (why
risk my job by asking questions or making trouble? Its none of my concern
anyway). Others don't even serve the Wyrm at all. Magadon's MagNet medical
database actually saves lives.
First Teams, like Dead Man's Hand, are just like real world mercenaries. They
do the job for pay and don't care about the ethics -- just like the real world
mercenaries Shell Oil reportedly hired keep people off the land in Nigeria
they'd like to drill.
Pentex-made fomori are either those same mercenaries looking for some sort of
edge, or else volunteers Pentex lures in with promises of money, jobs, a new
life, whatever. Once they become fomori, they've got a thing in their head
urging them to do bad things. (Personally, I'd like to see some Pentex fomori
who aren't goofy looking freaks -- chemically, genetically and spiritually
engineered human looking supersoldiers, combining all the cool and screwed up
ideas from Captain America, Bane, Universal Soldier and the like).
>A lot of its actvities are going to loose it
>money,
And for every activity that loses money, there's a dozen more that make money
hand over fist.
Endron drills some place where it knows there's no oil but it suspects some
Wyrm creature or artifact might be burried. It won't make money doing it, but
if they find what they were looking for, it's money well spent in the name of
power or faith. And even if they don't, they still make enough money from a
dozen other drilling sites to cover the loss and still make a proffit.
A lot of their "Wyrm related" activities are the same things real world
companies do on a dailly basis. Strip mining, clear cutting forrests, using
giant drag nets for fishing, selling military hardware (including chemical
weapons) to goverments, printing tons of junk mail, encouraging kids to smoke,
promoting binge drinking among teens, creating drugs that treat symptoms of
diseases instead of working on ways to prevent disease in the first place,
selling fast food that's bad for you, making teenage girls think they aren't
thin enough or pretty enough, and on and on and on. Stuff like bane-laden food
and cosmetics or toys that enslave kids minds doesn't even have to make up 5%
of what they do. The magic stuff is just the icing on the cake.
Richard Clayton
eeeeeeeevil just 'cause it's FUN to be eeeeeeeevil, and I've had similar views on
Nephandi, spectres, Black Spiral Dancers, and the like, but I don't think I've ever
expressed them so eloquently, even in my own head.
BA wrote:
> (Personally, I'd like to see some Pentex fomori
> who aren't goofy looking freaks -- chemically, genetically and spiritually
> engineered human looking supersoldiers, combining all the cool and screwed up
> ideas from Captain America, Bane, Universal Soldier and the like).
I beat you to it. My WoD has a government-backed platoon of monster hunters who
all benefit from a potent chemical regimen designed to enhance a human's combat
ability. (The program also burns out the subject's willpower and leaves him
vulnerable to possession by Banes, which is why they're all fomori.) They're very
human-looking fomori, however, with moderate powers and taints, so nobody has
caught on yet. (Besides, the scientists who design and monitor the program are
mundanes- they wouldn't believe that the superior strength and endurance of their
soldiers come from possession by malignant spiritual entities.)
The occasional soldier goes berserk, of course, and they all tend to get
progressively twitchier as time goes on. The program's directors rationalize away
such occasions as battle stress from fighting the horrific beasties inhabiting the
WoD. If I ever use this faction in a chronicle[1] I will introduce it just as
things are getting SERIOUSLY wiggy in the ranks... Mwahahahahahaaahaaaah.
--
Richard Clayton (for...@earthlink.net)
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
-- Aldous Huxley
[1] Yes, I write tons of material that I may not ever use. So sue me.
Mant
<snip free will stuff>
I pretty much agree here, but there have been some very heated debates
on this group about the free will (or lack thereof) of the various bad
guys.
> >Pentex is one of the worst offenders becuase its so clearly being evil
> >for the sake of it.
<snip stuff on leaders>
I have Book of the Wyrm (both editions). I don't find it very
conviving on Pentex there and a summury of it doesn't change my mind.
Doing evil becuase "I'm a member of an evil religion" is doing evil
for its own sake as far as I'm concerened. Its very different from say
a Nephandus who beleives in Descent for a reason.
And the Omega plan is still silly. Lets leave evil schems to rule to
worlds in comic books where they work well.
> Employees are either willing agents who do so out of one of the above
> motivations, or people who unknowingly serve the Wyrm out of simple apathy (why
> risk my job by asking questions or making trouble? Its none of my concern
> anyway). Others don't even serve the Wyrm at all. Magadon's MagNet medical
> database actually saves lives.
Pentex has thousands of employees. Vast numbers of them must be aware
that it does deeply illegal an unethical things. Yet they all either
worship the Wyrm, are to apathetic to care or are silenced?
This only washes for me in the dispair ladedn WoD which is full of
apathy. I prefer a real world with supernatural added setting and
Pentex strains my suspension of disbeleif here. Maybe I'm being
naieve, as lots of real world companies do all sorts of horrible
things.
> First Teams, like Dead Man's Hand, are just like real world mercenaries. They
> do the job for pay and don't care about the ethics -- just like the real world
> mercenaries Shell Oil reportedly hired keep people off the land in Nigeria
> they'd like to drill.
First Teams in the Amazon or parts of Aftrica I can buy. First Teams
in a lot of other places I have problems with. Its a whole private
army you have to keep secret, and if they do anything other than
defend Pentex bases they bring too much heat down on the company.
I ran a short Fomori game set in London with a First Team, and it
quickly became apparant they had to be *very* careful. Using any of
their military grade hardware anywhere around people was right out, it
caused to many questions and Pentex doesn't have the sort of clout in
the police and similar bodies to keep it covered.
> >A lot of its actvities are going to loose it
> >money,
>
> And for every activity that loses money, there's a dozen more that make money
> hand over fist.
Pentex has to compete though, and you can bet its competitors are
spending a small fortune funding a war in the Amazon or having to
replace factories trashed by Garou. Its lean economic times and with
every dollar Pentex don't pump back into the business but uses to
follow its own agenda it looses ground.
Most of the Wyrm stuff does absolutely squat to help it in the
marketplace, it might make people a bit more evil or despoil a Garou
caern, but at the end of the day that doesn't sell more stuff.
I see Pentex opertaing at a loss with everything it tries to do. A lot
of massive multinationals actuall owe vast sums of money to banks, and
Pentex's complex nature allows it to keep a lot of this hidden behind
paperwork. The top guys don't care becuase they just need to keep the
company going long enough to fullfil thier plans.
Mant
Nimrod Jones
> Pentex is one of the worst offenders becuase its so clearly being evil
> for the sake of it.
I disagree. At first, this is they way I viewed them, I agree. And I do
sometimes have a problem with the whole "I'm going to destroy the world"
ploy that seems to make no sense. Why? Why are you trying to destroy the
world? What do you have to gain? Well, so far as Pentex, the Black Spiral
Dancers and any followers of "evil", the book that I found a great
inspiration was "Chronicles of the Black Labyrinth" which is actually about
the Black Spiral Dancer kinfolk, but I have adapted that viewpoint as being
true for all followers of the Wyrm.
In short, the Wyrm wants to destroy the world, whether out of spite, malice
or some higher purpose. Those who follow the Wyrm believe that they must
destroy the world in order to bring about a new era. Destruction for the
sake of rebirth. A form of cleansing. Clean the earth of all of mankind, all
of life. Destroy the reign of Gaia, and allow the Wyrm to reshape the world
in His vision. What will that vision be? Who knows? Faith (or insanity) is
what keeps that follower true to the cause.
When Garou fight Pentex, Black Spiral Dancers and the like who pollute the
world, it is not because they are "evil", but because they are attacking
Gaia, whom they were created to defend.
Nimrod...
Asmodai
news:NT4%7.5246$X87.9...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Mant <man...@mants-lair.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:62c8370b.02010...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> When Garou fight Pentex, Black Spiral Dancers and the like who pollute the
> world, it is not because they are "evil", but because they are attacking
> Gaia, whom they were created to defend.
>
> Nimrod...
SCARY... this could mean that from that point of view the Garou could be the
bad guys... maybe Gaia is evil??
<Asmodai quickly realises the nonsense and bows to his Gaia shrine>
Mant
> news:62c8370b.02010...@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
> > Pentex is one of the worst offenders becuase its so clearly being evil
> > for the sake of it.
> <snip>
>
> I disagree. At first, this is they way I viewed them, I agree. And I do
> sometimes have a problem with the whole "I'm going to destroy the world"
> ploy that seems to make no sense. Why? Why are you trying to destroy the
> world? What do you have to gain? Well, so far as Pentex, the Black Spiral
> Dancers and any followers of "evil", the book that I found a great
> inspiration was "Chronicles of the Black Labyrinth" which is actually about
> the Black Spiral Dancer kinfolk, but I have adapted that viewpoint as being
> true for all followers of the Wyrm.
Own it, read it though it was OK.
> In short, the Wyrm wants to destroy the world, whether out of spite, malice
> or some higher purpose. Those who follow the Wyrm believe that they must
> destroy the world in order to bring about a new era. Destruction for the
> sake of rebirth. A form of cleansing. Clean the earth of all of mankind, all
> of life. Destroy the reign of Gaia, and allow the Wyrm to reshape the world
> in His vision. What will that vision be? Who knows? Faith (or insanity) is
> what keeps that follower true to the cause.
I already use this with most bad guys. I had a charismatic (and fairly
sane) BSD explain to my PCs why exactly the world really does need to
be destroyed to move the cycle on. Its badly broken metaphysically and
has been since the sundering and if it keeps limping on when it
finally goes there will never be anything left.
It doesn't work for Pentex though whose Omega Plan specifically
requires the world not to end, but to be a big old mess Pentex will
rule from the moon. Not one of the Petnex top guys care about the
bigger picutre its all "gimme power!" and "Look Ma, I worship the
Wyrm!". It works for villains I guess but it gives them no depth, and
I can't seem to get version I'm vaguely happy with working on the "it
has to be done" philosphy.
Frankly I think WW tripped up by giving us so much info on Petnex,
although I suppose its to let PCs mess them up with their own internal
politics. I'd rather see the board of dircetors handled like say
Wolfram and Hart's senior partners in Angel who stay (almost) unseen
with some juciy hints about them not being human any more.
Actually W&H have become a big influence on how a handle Pentex. For
example although they have some normal guys and supernatural security
that contract out in cases where they want violence done to someone.
In fact I'm more and more tempted to rip Pentex out and replace them
with a firm of evil Wyrm lawyers. Why dump toxic waste yourself when
you can make it legal for someone else? How much harm can you do
getting criminals off, mob bosses, dryg dealers or even child abusing
Wyrm cultists? Nobody questons lawyers associating with people who
turn out to be criminals, and why get you're own hands dirty? Help
other supernaturals cover up their crimes, vampires get their meals
and the like. Corruption is what the Wyrm does best, it gives it power
in itself. Why do things when you can corrupt humans and supernaturals
into doing it? Fascilitate other people's evil.
It removes a lot of the "the Wyrm is responsable for all bad stuff"
problems as its now much clearer that its not. You also have a much
smaller organisation that I have far less problems, and everyone
*knows* lawyers are evil :)
> When Garou fight Pentex, Black Spiral Dancers and the like who pollute the
> world, it is not because they are "evil", but because they are attacking
> Gaia, whom they were created to defend.
Well yes, and to the Garou that makes them evil. The Wyrm is the
enemy, and name me one servant of the Wyrm that *isn't* evil?
Frankly even if they got it back in balance I don't think they would
stop. "Thats OK MR Bane, you just eat these kiddies Brains out the
spray toxic waste all over the place, we know it necessary for the
harmony of the Triat". Yeah, right.
Mant
Nimrod Jones
news:a1iqj9$cmah$1...@as201.hinet.hr...
>
> SCARY... this could mean that from that point of view the Garou could be
the
> bad guys... maybe Gaia is evil??
> <Asmodai quickly realises the nonsense and bows to his Gaia shrine>
That, my soon-to-be-convert, is the idea. Give in to the Dark Side... Help
Our Father deal retribution on the world and cleanse it of its sins... Join
us! Join us! Join us!
Frater :. :.
Mike Shannon
of the Garou, so the Wyrm is evil. But if we look at it head on and not from
either side the wyrm isn't evil. It is just doing what it thinks is best to
'fix' the world."
I do like the W&H approach. However I picture Pentex as black paint. Pentex
doesn't need to ruin a competitor, a bane here and there, tempting people
with some Wyrm magic and pretty soon the white becomes gray then black.
Offer the CEO a cream that reverses aging, for real. Have banes whispering
dark thoughts in the ears of key people, ect. Don't forget many Pentex
products are additive. Pentex also has many smaller companies that do many
different things. If Garou destroy a plant, insurance covers it or
government subsidies.
It seems to me what WtA says is that the world, one that is so much like our
own world is doom. The Garou can't fix it. Even if somehow the Weaver, Wyld
and Wyrm were put back in check and Gaia wasn't to far gone and could heal
back. The new balanced world would be so unlike the real world, that the
idea of playing a monster is a world much our own is lost.
To be honest I don't really like how dark the WtA is. That is to say the
idea that the war is lost and the Garou are going down fighting. I like the
idea in Mage better that while one war is over the real one has just begun
and its not predestined that all is lost.
--
Mike
Mant <man...@mants-lair.org.uk> wrote in message
news:62c8370b.02011...@posting.google.com...
Mant
> I don't happen to like the 'Well its a war and we see it from the perception
> of the Garou, so the Wyrm is evil. But if we look at it head on and not from
> either side the wyrm isn't evil. It is just doing what it thinks is best to
> 'fix' the world."
I'm not saying that, I'm down with the Wyrm really being evil. Well
the Wrym itself is pretty unknowable, but from its actions its a
reasonable to call it evil.
What I want though is the people (or things) who serve it to have some
rational.
WARNING, NAZI ANALOGY COMING UP, THIS THREAD WILL SELF-DESTRUCT IN
FIVE POSTS...
Take WWII, I think its fair to say the Nazi's were evil, from an
objective (as possible) point. The thing is they didn't think of
themselves as evil, they didn't do for the sake of being evil or
serving evil, they did it for what they saw as a good reason. Well
mostly, some sickos just used it as an excuse to hrut people becuase
they got off on it.
Thats how I see the Wyrm's servants. Most of them
> I do like the W&H approach. However I picture Pentex as black paint. Pentex
> doesn't need to ruin a competitor, a bane here and there, tempting people
> with some Wyrm magic and pretty soon the white becomes gray then black.
As presented Pentex can't really do that. They don't have any power
over Banes other than stuffing them in consumer products.
I'm also not that keen on Banes causeing people to go evil, I much
prefer them as a symptom rather than a cause, except in a few cases.
Even then they are drawn to people who are likely to be corrupted.
> Offer the CEO a cream that reverses aging, for real. Have banes whispering
> dark thoughts in the ears of key people, ect. Don't forget many Pentex
> products are additive.
Many also seem to kill their buyers or turn them into monsters. Not
good for repeat business.
> Pentex also has many smaller companies that do many
> different things. If Garou destroy a plant, insurance covers it or
> government subsidies.
Even if insurance covers that actual damage, you have all sorts of
other losses. By the time you are operating again you have lost out in
the market place. Not to mention having police, fire cheifs, insurance
investigators and theses days probably FBI anti-terrorist guys all
over the site where you were probably doing deeply dodgy and illeagal
stuff. Not to mention how you explain the Fomori corpses...
Sure the company can cover it up, but that's even more cost, and risk,
for them.
> It seems to me what WtA says is that the world, one that is so much like our
> own world is doom. The Garou can't fix it. Even if somehow the Weaver, Wyld
> and Wyrm were put back in check and Gaia wasn't to far gone and could heal
> back. The new balanced world would be so unlike the real world, that the
> idea of playing a monster is a world much our own is lost.
Part of the irony of the Changing Breeds situation is they were
created by Gaia to deal with a specific problem. If they do solve the
problem they are not only not needed but will probably be a problem of
their own.
> To be honest I don't really like how dark the WtA is. That is to say the
> idea that the war is lost and the Garou are going down fighting. I like the
> idea in Mage better that while one war is over the real one has just begun
> and its not predestined that all is lost.
Well its easy to say the Garou do have a chance, I know a lot of
people play it that way. Hell the 2nd edition ST book flat out stated
if they got their act together they could pull it off.
After all when you actually look at it the environmental destruction
done my humans is totally insignificant compare to some of the things
the planet has gone through. Sure we have wiped out species, but
spieces die all the time. Life itself though has proven immensely
tolerant.
Thats not excuse human action, but in the long term they really aren't
anything like the end of the world, nor realisticly ever likely to be.
Of course they could be the end of us, which is another matter.
Mant
Jim Meyer
> armegeddon.
> Mant