Does White Wolf hate the Sabbat?
MalkavBoy
Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
been to their web site......do you see the word Sabbat even once? They don't
even have a Sabbat sheet in the download section. I think those pricks are
playing favorites with the Cammys.
Sorry if my ranting has offended anyone, but I needed to say it.
~<(Madison)>~
Rick Jones
MalkavBoy <malk...@aol.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
> playing favorites with the Cammys.
Well, the game itself is intended for Camarilla vampires. The Sabbat
books are a sideline. And, (just my theory), it's probably not a
great idea to emphasize the completely inhuman, loves to carve up
puppies and grandmothers, group of vampires. The press would love
to chew on that.
If you wanna play Sabbat, there's stuff there for you, including
the most recent Citybook.
--
Rick Jones I will add indelible dye to the moat. It won't stop anyone
ri...@blkbox.com from swimming across, but even dim-witted guards should be
able to figure out when someone has entered in this fashion.
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -- Tips for Evil Overlords
icarus
MalkavBoy wrote:
>
> Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
> playing favorites with the Cammys.
>
this, it would appear that they just LOVE the Camarilla. I don't know
why though, I think the Sabbat make more sense than those bleeding
heart( no pun intended) licks who maintain their "charade" of humanity.
The kindred I know are in many ways worse than the Sabbat. At least you
know where you stand with them, unlike the human-wannabe's in the
Camarilla.
Just my two cents worth, sorry if I stepped on any toes.
Aaron Caine, Brujah anarch
"It would seem to me that I remember every single fucking thing I
know"-the tragically hip
The Athar
>Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
>been to their web site......do you see the word Sabbat even once? They don't
>even have a Sabbat sheet in the download section. I think those pricks are
>playing favorites with the Cammys.
>
>
>~<(Madison)>~
PLEASE! If they show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do you see any
"Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's Storyteller Handbooks"?
Notice how the Sabbat start with four Discipline points instead of three? How
about White Wolf giving them the largest cities in the United States in the
Sabbat Storyteller's Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it lists
the Sabbat's weaknesses. YEAH RIGHT! You call *those* weaknesses?! Oh, they're
not as big as the Camarilla--but they make up for that with more powerful
neonates. They may transmit diseases, BUT F***ING WHOOP! That could happen to
ANY VAMPIRE! They don't have mortal influence. That mortal influence helped the
Camarilla defend cities like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, San
Francisco, Augusta, Portland, Boston, Mexico City, etc. when the Sabbat
attacked them! I personally *HATE* the Sabbat and would NEVER let any of my
player's play one. I know it's biased, and I know it's mean, but I hate the
WHOLE concept! Actually, I'd be VERY satisfied if White Wolf made Camarilla
Guide Books. But no, there are none. Only Sabbat this and Sabbat that.
- Brant Casavant
---
Notice how the Lasombra/Tzimisce Clanbooks were INFINITLY cooler then the
Ventrue or Toreador's?
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Brant Casavant wrote:
> If [the WW staff] show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do
> you see any "Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's
> Storyteller Handbooks"? Notice how the Sabbat start with four
> Discipline points instead of three? How about White Wolf giving them
> the largest cities in the United States in the Sabbat Storyteller's
> Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it lists the Sabbat's
> weaknesses. YEAH RIGHT! You call *those* weaknesses?!
I won't entirely dismiss your point, Brant (as it has some basis in
fact), but some points you might want to (re)consider are:
(1) The _Vampire Players Guide_ is essentially a Camarilla-only
supplement. Yes, many Sabbat vampires have Camarilla Disciplines,
and some may even have them at level 6+, but nothing in there is
tailored to the Sabbat, and plenty of Camarilla Clan-specific
material _is_. (Clan politics, gatherings, interrelations, etc.)
The _Vampire Storytellers Guide_, although it gives a token nod to
Sabbat (in its NPC/Chronicle section and such), leans heavily in
this direction as well. Chronicle notes and guidelines focus
primarily around humanity, the Beast, mortal society, and Prince/
Primogen politics. You can't even find pregen Sabbat NPCs in there.
For that matter, all you'll see of Sabbat in the core rulebook
itself is a couple of opinionated rumors -- 'they have no humanity,'
'they're monsters,' 'we think they know a way to break the Blood
Bond,' yadda yadda yadda.
(2) I won't comment in terms of in-game power (which is Chronicle-
dependent), but the fourth Discipline point given to Sabbat vampires
is, at best, a tenuous even-swap for lower Path ratings, loss of
Backgrounds, and semi-forced loyalty to packmates and/or superiors.
(3) My Lasombra PC has contracted AIDS from a victim (which doesn't
affect him, but _does_ pass on to one out of every two or three
humans from which he feeds). Like any vampire, he went on feeding
for several weeks before realizing that something was wrong -- and
he found _that_ out by watching the six o'clock news cover story
on the purported CDC 'Airborne AIDS Epidemic.'
He's currently being hunted down for capture and/or extermination
by the Technocracy. (Ugh.)
Now, all that having been said, there _does_ appear to be a slight tip
on the power scale...
(4) Freedom from most Humanitarian concerns removes many of the
behavioral impediments facing Camarilla vampires. This will, of
course, offer one-dimensional romp-stomp-and-where-are-my-dice
types a plethora of new situations to abuse.
I prefer to think of it, however, as a new and interesting forum
for some potentially very cerebral role-playing -- this has been
made to work impressively well in Colin Bunnell's _Revelations_
(Sabbat) Chronicle for nearly a year now.
(Colin has incorporated a megalomaniac sadist Power-and-the-Inner-
Voicer who teeters on the edge of thinking himself a god, a rather
morbid and experimental Death-and-the-Soul philosopher, a Harmonist
who exists both inside and outside the human condition at the same
time, a Moncada-style French knight on a perverted Road of Heaven
who solemnly believes his soul to be the property of Satan, and a
worshipper of Lilith who carefully layers an intricate exterior of
lie upon lie around his pursuit of Dark Revelations. Yes, we kill
humans, of course, but it represents very little of our game time.)
(5) The manner in which the Sabbat lay siege to a city cannot logically
be contested by resident Camarilla powers -- they can evacuate, die
beneath the swarm of soldiers, lie hidden (and impotent) for fear
of discovery while the new rulers entrench themselves, or muster up
a counter-force of respectable dimensions and break the Masquerade.
In all four cases, they lose.
There _is_ the time-honored deus ex machina -- an Archon or Justicar
of the Fifth or Sixth Generation who storms in with Psychic Assault
(Auspex 8), Cauldron of Blood (Thaumaturgy 5), or some other such
high-powered silliness -- but I tend to frown on such game devices.
Besides, the Sabbat may well have ranking Archbishops/Cardinals/
Warlords/Seraphim of their own, upping the power struggle to truly
ludicrous proportions. The city may well burn before it ends.
-- S. Skoog
> Notice how the Lasombra/Tzimisce Clanbooks were INFINITLY cooler then
> the Ventrue or Toreador's?
Rich Dansky, Elizabeth Ditchburn, and Rob Hatch were/are three of the
greatest creative talents clinging/who clung to the White Wolf banner.
To laud their works is not at all to say the Sabbat are innately cooler,
much less to suggest an intentional staffer bias. (Hatch also wrote
_Nosferatu_, a Camarilla Clan sourcebook, which is excellent -- IMHO,
better than _Tzimisce_ -- and such supplements as _Risen_ and
_Puppeteers_ virtually speak for themselves.)
Giorgio Anselmi
Negli Annali del Tempo, risulta che thea...@aol.com (The Athar) abbia
inciso le seguenti affermazioni:
> PLEASE! If they show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do you see any
> "Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's Storyteller Handbooks"?
> Actually, I'd be VERY satisfied if White Wolf made Camarilla
> Guide Books. But no, there are none. Only Sabbat this and Sabbat that.
Well, in "Vampire: The Masquerade", "Storyteller's Handbook", and
"Player's Guide" the only clan mentioned, described and detailed were
Camarilla clans. Discipline were just those of Camarilla clans (except
for neither Camarilla nor Sabbat vampires like Assamites, Ravnos...).
I think that no "Player's Guide to Camarilla" were published because
it was clear that there's no need! Nearly all manual which do not
specify "Sabbat" on the cover are to be intended for Camarilla
vampires. With some exceptions, but as a general rule...
Giorgio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giorgio Anselmi gio...@progetto3000.it Sopor Aeternus & The Ensemble of Shadows
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/6583/ The Unofficial Site
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinister
On 12 Dec 1997 19:47:03 GMT, thea...@aol.com (The Athar) wrote:
>PLEASE! If they show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do you see any
>"Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's Storyteller Handbooks"?
Since the original rules were based around Camarilla players....I think that
they thought, (and I do too) that a Camarilla players and storytellers handbook
would not be needed.
>Notice how the Sabbat start with four Discipline points instead of three? How
>about White Wolf giving them the largest cities in the United States in the
>Sabbat Storyteller's Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it lists
>the Sabbat's weaknesses. YEAH RIGHT! You call *those* weaknesses?! Oh, they're
>not as big as the Camarilla--but they make up for that with more powerful
>neonates. They may transmit diseases, BUT F***ING WHOOP! That could happen to
>ANY VAMPIRE! They don't have mortal influence. That mortal influence helped the
>Camarilla defend cities like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, San
>Francisco, Augusta, Portland, Boston, Mexico City, etc. when the Sabbat
>attacked them!
Perhaps instead of favoring the Sabbat with these "benefits" you pointed out.
It is used as a very good tool for the Storyteller to create powerful and
formidable adversaries to use as the Chronicle's Antagonists.
Personally, I don't think that the disadvantages and advantages you list are
that unbalancing. Though I am partial to the Sabbat myself....so it's a biased
opinion.
>I personally *HATE* the Sabbat and would NEVER let any of my
>player's play one.
I LOVE the Sabbat, and have played them more often than not.
If played in the right manner, and that is _not_ hack and slash that is.
>I know it's biased, and I know it's mean, but I hate the
>WHOLE concept! Actually, I'd be VERY satisfied if White Wolf made Camarilla
>Guide Books. But no, there are none. Only Sabbat this and Sabbat that.
Wouldn't that honestly be a bit redundant?
Regards,
SinisteR
Eric Robert Sylwester
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
: Brant Casavant wrote:
: > If [the WW staff] show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do
: > you see any "Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's
: > Storyteller Handbooks"? Notice how the Sabbat start with four
: > Discipline points instead of three? How about White Wolf giving them
: > the largest cities in the United States in the Sabbat Storyteller's
: > Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it lists the Sabbat's
: > weaknesses. YEAH RIGHT! You call *those* weaknesses?!
I have to say I generally agree with Sven (his stuff below). In a
nutshell;
PGS <=> the basic rulebook for the Sabbat, since the only vampire rulebook
is an all-Camarilla one.
SGS <=> the Storyteller's Guide.
4 dots in disciplines is balanced by 0 backgrounds. And I think less
Virtues (though I could be remembering wrong).
The listed Merits and Flaws (weaknesses) are only the sabbat-specific
ones; if you read the text you'll see that the "normal" ones also appear
in sabbat vampires.
The cities is a matter of WoD history, and frankly I think WW just looked
at the amount of violence and overcrowding in the RL cities and decided
based on that. Makes for a more "realistic" geographical placement of
the two sides.
Besides, the Vaulderie is a real bitch...
I certianly don't see WW as favoring the Sabbat, but then again I don't
see them favoring the Camarilla that much either. Personally, I think
they should favor whichever sells more books....
[Sven's stuff below]
: I won't entirely dismiss your point, Brant (as it has some basis in
: -- S. Skoog
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Brainman02
SOrry buddy bey White OWlf has a chat room for Sabbat. So don't say that they
are >pricks are
>playing favorites with the Cammys.
Nyarlathotep
In article <19971212092...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
malk...@aol.com (MalkavBoy) wrote:
> Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
> been to their web site......do you see the word Sabbat even once? They don't
> even have a Sabbat sheet in the download section. I think those pricks are
> playing favorites with the Cammys.
The Sabbat goes against the whinny, angsty "personal horror" aspect of
the game. IMHO, I think Sabbat vampires have more "personal horror" than
the Camarilla vampires. Playing Sabbat vampires dredges all of our darker
impulse from the bottm of our psyche's and brings them to the surface.
There are somethings I have thought of and had my characters done while
playing Sabbat Vampires (and Freak Legion Fomori) that I have found in
retrospect to be very disturbing.
Rod K.
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
"This life is slow suicide, unless you read."
--Lt. Tom Keefer, The Caine Mutiny.
David Johnston
> >"Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's Storyteller Handbooks"?
>
> they thought, (and I do too) that a Camarilla players and storytellers handbook
> would not be needed.
>
> >about White Wolf giving them the largest cities in the United States in the
> >Sabbat Storyteller's Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it lists
> >not as big as the Camarilla--but they make up for that with more powerful
> >neonates. They may transmit diseases, BUT F***ING WHOOP! That could happen to
> >ANY VAMPIRE! They don't have mortal influence. That mortal influence helped the
> >Camarilla defend cities like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, San
> >Francisco, Augusta, Portland, Boston, Mexico City, etc. when the Sabbat
> >attacked them!
>
> Perhaps instead of favoring the Sabbat with these "benefits" you pointed out.
> It is used as a very good tool for the Storyteller to create powerful and
> formidable adversaries to use as the Chronicle's Antagonists.
No. At least not in the case of the Discipline point issue. After
all antagonists can be given as many Disciplines as desired, and can
be sent in numbers as great as would be desired. Starting
the characters out with four disciplines is just a benefit for Sabbat
PCs.
>
> Personally, I don't think that the disadvantages and advantages you list are
> that unbalancing. Though I am partial to the Sabbat myself....so it's a biased
> opinion.
The concept of "unbalancing" is meaningless, however. Since Sabbat
and Camarilla characters aren't going to be working together, no balance
issues arise in the first place.
>
> >I personally *HATE* the Sabbat and would NEVER let any of my
> >player's play one.
>
> I LOVE the Sabbat, and have played them more often than not.
> If played in the right manner, and that is _not_ hack and slash that is.
What's the right manner? Reading the Player's Guide to the Sabbat,
they sound like nasty thugs.
David Johnston
MalkavBoy wrote:
>
> Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
> been to their web site......do you see the word Sabbat even once? They don't
> even have a Sabbat sheet in the download section. I think those pricks are
> playing favorites with the Cammys.
>
Hey, I'm too busy being apoplectic about the favouritism being shown
to the werewolves over my heros at Pentex and the Seventh Generation
to be offended.
>
> ~<(Madison)>~
MalkavBoy
>I agree! But to put my own personal spin on things, I'd like to complain
>about
>Changeling. In the 1st Ed book in the Antagonists section it said a bit
>about
>the Nunnehi. The sample Nunnehi Raider was given (I think) a motorbike and
>an
>automatic weapon. I ran a game with the Nunnehi as enemies, and later I got
>the
>Player's Guide, only to find that the Nunnehi were nothing like that. I
>htough
>this was a bit off, but when 2nd Edition cane round I was horrified to see
>that
>the antagonists section still contained the same BS about Biker Nunnehi.
>Now,
>since they've worked out what the Nunnehi are all about, they could have at
>least put something in that made sense.
What the hell does this have to do with the Sabbat? Why didn't you just post a
new message?
~<(Madison)>~
"What? Is man merely a mistake of God's?
Or God a mistake of man's?" - Nietzsche
You may walk behind me. You may walk next to me.
But if you walk ahead of me I will remove you.
George Weinberg
I got the impression White Wolf regretted releasing player's guide to
the Sabbat. Sure it's probably one of the best written books they've
got, but it makes the Sabbat playable characters and they're supposed
to be antagonists. The Storytellers Guide to the Sabbat was IMO
in many ways backpedalling from making them playable chracters, as
has most stuff about them since then been.
They were quite careful never to make this "mistake" with the
Black Spiral or Tecnocracy, nothing like players' guides for them,
the technocracy books have a little crap about running Technocracy
campaign, but it's pretty clear the only campaign they would want you
to even consider running is "you start out as agents of the technocracy,
discover what scum your masters are, and try to revolt".
Probably because any attempt at real player's guides for them
would show how absurd the caricatures are. An organization whose
overriding goal is to make the world as banal as possible? An
organization whose primary goal is to pollute? Please.
G
Tim Toner
> Probably because any attempt at real player's guides for them
>would show how absurd the caricatures are. An organization whose
>overriding goal is to make the world as banal as possible? An
>organization whose primary goal is to pollute? Please.
Uh-huh. Now please explain Freak Legion and the forthcoming Player's Guide
to the Technocracy. The Sabbat books got out of hand, fast. You'll notice
that the same person who brought you the Sabbat also brought you Dirty
Secrets of the Black Hand, his ideas for bringing the monster he created
under control. Only--it didn't work. No one LIKED the system of controls
he presented, so no one used them. So the Sabbat spiralled out of control,
and the only way to suppress this flock of Munschkins was to totally ignore
their existence, within reason, and present communities of them that frankly
don't make much sense (Montreal By Night, etc.) Now any work put into the
"Sabbat Clans" sees the light of day (so to speak) in the Dark Ages books,
where they play ostensibly by the same rules as the Camarilla.
Coyote895
Speaking of the Sabbat, (judging by the flavor of these posts I'm gonna get
flamed up the ass for this, but what the hell) has White Wolf truly cancelled
it's ideas for Sabbat 2nd Edition, a hardcover retelling of the 2 main Sabbat
books? And hey, just when will The Insider's Guide to the Technocracy be out?
We been waiting for 2 years now. AND WHAT IS THE WRAITH HISTORICAL GAME GOING
TO BE, GODDAMMIT???? Yaaarrrr....we be gettin' a might fiesty here...
Yah, I want da cheezy poof.
The Mad Coyote
"When does nature go from being beutiful to ugly?"
"Oh, about 9 in the morning, when you realize you
slept with a pig....or a big fat elephant."
-South Park
Mr.Goodbytes
You think maybe its because the "good guys" arn't really where White Wolf
wants Vampire to be, but acts like they are the favored group to avoid
media outcry over how "satanic" the game is, and to keep the money rolling
in from people who don't like to play anybody thats got the least bit of
evil in them? I personally think that the Sabbat is a lot more scary to
play, which is the whole point of Vampire, and I think White Wolf realizes
that too. Vampires shoudn't be a bunch of blood-sucking Peace Corp members
(like the Camarila wants to be)
Luke
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> (5) The manner in which the Sabbat lay siege to a city cannot logically
> be contested by resident Camarilla powers -- they can evacuate, die
> beneath the swarm of soldiers, lie hidden (and impotent) for fear
> of discovery while the new rulers entrench themselves, or muster up
> a counter-force of respectable dimensions and break the Masquerade.
> In all four cases, they lose.
>
> There _is_ the time-honored deus ex machina -- an Archon or Justicar
> of the Fifth or Sixth Generation who storms in with Psychic Assault
> (Auspex 8), Cauldron of Blood (Thaumaturgy 5), or some other such
> high-powered silliness -- but I tend to frown on such game devices.
> Besides, the Sabbat may well have ranking Archbishops/Cardinals/
> Warlords/Seraphim of their own, upping the power struggle to truly
> ludicrous proportions. The city may well burn before it ends.
>
In the Camarilla-based LARP that we have here in Brisbane, the Camarilla
fought back the Sabbat by joining forces with both the Anarchs (who didnt
want to lose theri city - the anarchs and cam arent in open warfare here)
and the Garou, helped along by a couple of Gangrel and a Brujah (who is
now the Prince) who attended the Garou LARP and petitioned for help. This
was thanks to a sept leader who disliked vampires but didnt feel the need
to wipe us all out right this very second...
Eventually through co-ordinated efforts we fought them back, at the loss
of influences, sanity (i got a derangement from the war) and health.
The cover-story, helped by influence usage, was that there were riots
occuring in the city.. its bloody hard to fight back the sabbat, but it
can be done... and a coterie of the toughest cam members right now
(including two assamites (one of whom is apprently a nos), a brujah and
maybe one or two gangrel) could *probably* take out the local Tzimice
Bishop...
I'd hate to see the war-wounds though...
Justin R. Achilli
Mr.Goodbytes wrote:
>
> I personally think that the Sabbat is a lot more scary to
> play,
I don't think either one of the sects is inherently scarier to play.
It's all in how you do it.
> which is the whole point of Vampire, and I think White Wolf realizes
> that too.
Agreed. It's a game of personal horror, after all. But see my rant
below.
> Vampires shoudn't be a bunch of blood-sucking Peace Corp members
> (like the Camarila wants to be)
I think you perceive them incorrectly. Tell me that an 800-year-old
Toreador elder with a list of Derangements as long as my arm and a
Humanity (the Camarilla code of morality) score of 3 is a Peace Corps
member. Now imagine having this maniac as the representative of the clan
in your city. Now imagine that your thirteenth-gen starting character
has to go deal with this guy. There's some horror for ya.
And on that note (this isn't a slam on Goodbytes, but the soapbox has to
start somewhere):
I've been following this newsgroup for multiple years, now, as have many
of you. I subscribed before I worked for White Wolf, during my tenure
there, and now afterward. In that time I have seen damn little here that
would indicate that the topic of discussion is a series of horror games.
What I have seen is message upon message about:
- How to combine the character types into amalgamated monstrosities of
twink-wank Trait wet dreams (the only horror I can envision here is
looking at the character sheet)
- Endless diatribe over which splat could kick the bejeezus out of which
other splat
- Nauseating, if well-reasoned, discussion over how the World of
Darkness fits into the Mage "paradigm" (If a situation in life ever
arises in which the word "paradigm" is keenly suited, switch vocations!)
- A whole mess of my-opinion-is-dogma
- An equal mess of shut-up-it-is-not (like this one)
- The occasional in-character delusion posted to an OOC thread
- The more frequent OOC delusion somehow interjected into an OOC thread
- Crackpot conspiracy theories ranging from the White Wolf-beatific to
the I Hate You Fuckers for What You Did to [Pet Game Aspect X]
- Ad infinitum.
There's not a whole lot of reasonable discussion going on here. There's
not a whole lot of horror gaming going on here. There's a bunch of
verbal effluvia in this NG. To that end, I offer the following -- the
concise Justin R. Achilli guide to World of Darkness gaming. Accept this
in the spirit with which it is presented: I'm a guy who likes these
games, but I'm not trying to force my outlook on you. When the weight of
the World of Darkness is on your shoulders, you may find some solace in
my tender words. Without further ado, then....
Axioms
------
- You are not Celtic.
- You are not a Gypsy.
- You are not an American Indian.
- You are not a vampire.
- This is not Champions.
- This is not AD&D.
- This may be Call of Cthulhu, but then again, it may not.
- Marilyn Manson is actually pretty cool, in spite of themselves.
Idioms
------
- More Traits doth not a better character make.
- Abominations are dumb. Unless they're cool.
- No one is impressed with what a gore-fest your Sabbat game was.
- If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
your game sucks.
- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
- If your Pooka has access to spheres, your game sucks.
- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
get too cocky, kiddo.
Principles
----------
- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
sucks.
- No one even wants to hear about your character.
- Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
- If your Mage "crackles with ambient power," you need a girlfriend.*
- If you kill your family after playing Vampire, you had other problems
to begin with.
- There's more to life than arguing with be...@klaatu.org about whose
paradigm is bolted on and whose meshes with the rest of the cosmology.
- WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
- If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
yet.
Meta-Wisdom
-----------
- It's your game.
- If you don't like it, change it.
* Or boyfriend. Or whatever.
But, hey, I like the Spice Girls. What do I know?
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
[jach...@mindspring.com]
"I would go out tonight, but
I haven't got a stitch to wear."
-- The Smiths, "This Charming Man"
Jcalvan545
In article <3494C000...@mindspring.com>, "Justin R. Achilli"
<jach...@mindspring.com> writes:
>I think you perceive them incorrectly. Tell me that an 800-year-old
>Toreador elder with a list of Derangements as long as my arm and a
>Humanity (the Camarilla code of morality) score of 3 is a Peace Corps
>member. Now imagine having this maniac as the representative of the clan
>in your city. Now imagine that your thirteenth-gen starting character
>has to go deal with this guy. There's some horror for ya.
Well, yeah... but is that personal horror? I think what Goodbytes is trying to
say (note that I've never played or run in a Sabbat chronicle, although I'm
familiar with the books and found them a good resource.) is that the personal
horror aspect of the game is more evident not when dealing with something as
totaly alien as an 800 year old elder without a shred of humanity, but when
realizing that *you're* becoming alien and there isn't a damn thing you can do
about it. The Sabbat is more in-your-face about the whole thing, they *start*
as inhuman monsters so there isn't any need to degenerate and watch your
character slowly fall through the cracks. It's all a matter of personal
preference and how subtle you like your personal horror.
[snippage of alt.games.whitewolf rant]
Quite honestly, you're expecting too much from Usenet. It's always been 90%
noise.
>- You are not Celtic.
>- You are not a Gypsy.
>- You are not an American Indian.
I'm not, I've never claimed to be. Don't you think that's a slightly dangerous
assumption to make of *everyone* who reads this group though?
[snippage of why everyone's games suck]
O_o I guess you *do* hate everything...
>But, hey, I like the Spice Girls. What do I know?
Oh I like 'em too. Their music leaves something to be desired though. ;D
-Justin
#= Miste...@Juno.Com --- jcalv...@aol.com =#
#======= ICQ: 3137190 Dalnet: Mr_Wrong =======#
James Desborough
The problem here is (at least to my perception) that if we did start a
discussion on the 'Personal horror' aspect of hte game it would rapidly
degenerate into a flame war over different peoples ideas of what constitutes
horror. Not fun.
So, people are reduced to arguing game mechanics and trying to work the whole
thing into one happy-mix-together-WOD. Which is fine and actually has a slim
chance of people agreeing on.
Also some of your comments are a bit out.
There are plenty of people out there with Celtic/Rom/Native American/whatever
blood in their veins even if they're not the fully fledged thing. There
are Pagans and Wiccans (Admittedly mostly from the Paperback Paganism school
of thought) and there are plenty of people who are Goths/Alternative culture
types who wear victorian/black clothing and haven't been staked yet, so why
should their characters?
Me? I go with what my players want, be it combat, Romance, horror
whatever. Thats an STs job, to provide a story that people will enjoy. Not
to force one type of game down their throats. You'll find yourself without
a group rather quickly if you do.
I think the IC threads contain more interesting discussion than a lot of the
OOC stuff and bring up interesting ideas and problems that leach out into
the general NG.
Cheers,
GRIM
--
******************************************************************************
* Ping bra-strap and let slip the dugs of war! *
* I now maintain my own site, so it'll get updated! Visit and bookmark it. *
* Andover Fief and Post Mortem Studios at www.postmort.demon.co.uk *
* Cute(ish), Goth(ish) long haired wastrel available. *
* Character sketches, web-page design, custom tarot decks, jacket paintings, *
* anything to make an honest buck. *
* ICQ 3974217 *
******************************************************************************
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:28:32 -0500, "Justin R. Achilli"
<jach...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Axioms
>- You are not Celtic.
>- You are not a Gypsy.
>- You are not an American Indian.
Except for the persons of Celtic descent, the persons of Rom descent
and the person of Amerind descent. Of course, most gamers are
probably pretty northern European suburban...
>Idioms
>- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
I don't play werewolf, but if a game had been going on for a REALLY
long time, wouldn't it be okay for the werewolves to have Rank-six
Gifts?
>- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
>get too cocky, kiddo.
>Principles
>----------
>
>- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
>(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
>shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
>sucks.
Hey, watch it. If my NWO MiB doesn't wear mirrored sunglasses and a
trenchcoat, what else is he going to wear?
>- WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
>Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
>have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
Have you looked at drafts of Sorcerers' Crusade lately?
>- If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
>Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
>yet.
Oh, please. With all the Hollow Ones, blood dolls, and just plain
Goths, parTICularly in the WoD (as I see it), a vampire could wear
PRECISELY that kind of stuff and never have to think twice about it.
There are lots of folks who think they're vampires now, imagine how
many there would be in the WoD...
Overall, though, I loved this post. Lots of salient points.
K.
Fiona
Sorry I had to respond to this.. Please don't Flame me for it cause it's
just an opinion nothing more.
The Vampire books, I mean the main ones are ~all~ geared towards the
Camerilla, as is all the Clan books. So lets count: 9 books definitly
Camerilla oriented to the 4 which are totally Sabbat oriented. I must say
I can't agree with the poster below. The Sabbat also have very few other
Source books, Montrealis pretty much the only one. Where as there are many
geared towards Camerilla cities. Played properly the Sabbat weaknesses
should be actually dehabilitaing to a PC. First of all there's the whole
creation rite thing... Any PC should start out as insane to a degree
because of it. Insanity is crippling in our society, especially to
Vampire's. They have one of the largest cities yes, but the Camerilla has
~all~ the rest of them, except for the Anarch Free States. If a Sabbat PC
plays in any city other then the few they have, they're dead. The
Camerilla doesn't look favorably on them what-so-ever. They also don't get
any backgrounds, like a Cammie Pc does. If you don't like Sabbat, then
that's cool. I happen to think they're interesting when played properly.
They're, to me, more interesting then the Camerilla because they have more
purpose. They should be played as believing themselves to be highly
evolved, so as the mortals are playthings <ie Gods>, highly religious and a
cohesive group, which is what makes them so hard to beat. The fight as one
not as many. Loyalty and Freedom..That's what they're about. About the
disease factor. It's a real threat to the Sabbat, more then the Cammies
because of the Vinc. They share blood regularly, this means they'll all
have it if one pack member does.
I don't think, really, that WW shows favoritism either way. They're a
company and there is higher demand for Camerilla oriented stuff then
Sabbat. People can rarely play Sabbat well, they play them either as
twinky combat gods, total deviants <and somehow this usually ends up being
sexual, although why that is still boggles my mind> or just plain idiots.
I've only met a very few people that can handle playing the Sabbat the way
they were written/ created. If you want Camerilla Guide books then buy the
main two VTM... All of these are geared towards the Cammies. The clan
books don't really mention their antitribu sides, and I disagree.. I think
the Toreador book ROCKS far more then the Tzimisce or Lasombre!
Sincerely Fiona
PS Please... I state this again.. Don't flame me.. I agree to disagree with
you. :)
> PLEASE! If they show *ANY* favoritism it's TOWARDS the Sabbat! Do you see
any
> "Player's Guide to the Camarilla" or "Camarilla's Storyteller Handbooks"?
> Notice how the Sabbat start with four Discipline points instead of three?
How
> about White Wolf giving them the largest cities in the United States in
the
> Sabbat Storyteller's Handbook? In the Player's Guide to the Sabbat, it
lists
> the Sabbat's weaknesses. YEAH RIGHT! You call *those* weaknesses?! Oh,
they're
> not as big as the Camarilla--but they make up for that with more powerful
> neonates. They may transmit diseases, BUT F***ING WHOOP! That could
happen to
> ANY VAMPIRE! They don't have mortal influence. That mortal influence
helped the
> Camarilla defend cities like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles,
San
> Francisco, Augusta, Portland, Boston, Mexico City, etc. when the Sabbat
> attacked them! I personally *HATE* the Sabbat and would NEVER let any of
my
> player's play one. I know it's biased, and I know it's mean, but I hate
the
> WHOLE concept! Actually, I'd be VERY satisfied if White Wolf made
Camarilla
> Guide Books. But no, there are none. Only Sabbat this and Sabbat that.
>
> - Brant Casavant
> ---
Adaj
MalkavBoy (malk...@aol.com) shouted in righteous indignation:
: Is it just me or does White Wolf show a disinterest in the Sabbat? Have you
: been to their web site......do you see the word Sabbat even once? They don't
: even have a Sabbat sheet in the download section. I think those pricks are
: playing favorites with the Cammys.
:
: Sorry if my ranting has offended anyone, but I needed to say it.
: ~<(Madison)>~
Probably! Of course, if you read in the "Long Night", the new Mind's Eye
for Dark Ages, you will notice that those on the "Road of the Devil" are
to be Narrator Characters! It's the old standard "Everyone must play the
"good" guy on the white horse (Don't mention the atrocities committed in
the name of all's that good)". I'm hoping Clanbook Baali corrects that
notion! (NOTE to Sven: I'm eagerly anticipating the book, so this better
not be a "happy happy joy joy" book or a "kill babies for breakfast" either.)
I don't know if it's this human need to feel that good is going to win
out in the end or what. But the overriding notion, that no one can play
evil well or even understand the "evil" mentality well bugs me on a
personal level.
Anyway, enough ranting or I will be going on a long tirade of how Sabbat
are justified in what they are doing, or how the Traditions are evil from
a Technocrats perspective.
Signed,
Chris
My Quote of the day: "I hope one day someone writes a game that upends the
notion of good and evil, and players can play "evil"
characters that find "good, wholesome" NPCs to be
evil or at least misguided and challenges us to
reconsider what "evil" really is."
Jo Hart
Justin R. Achilli wrote:
< A lot of stuff with which I completely agree.. and.. >
> Axioms
> ------
>
> - You are not Celtic.
> - You are not a Gypsy.
> - You are not an American Indian.
Play fair now. Maybe the reason people keep coming up with characters
along these lines is because almost every WW sourcebook has stereotypes
that encourage them to do so. Pot? Kettle?
jo
Justin R. Achilli
Jo Hart wrote:
>
> Justin R. Achilli wrote:
>
> < A lot of stuff with which I completely agree.. and.. >
> > Axioms
> > ------
> >
> > - You are not Celtic.
> > - You are not a Gypsy.
> > - You are not an American Indian.
>
> Play fair now. Maybe the reason people keep coming up with characters
> along these lines is because almost every WW sourcebook has stereotypes
> that encourage them to do so. Pot? Kettle?
I was talking about gamers, not characters, with those remarks. No
slight intended to those of _actual_ ethnic descent described above. I'm
bitching about that segment of the gaming-pop audience for whom it is
now "cool" to pretend to hail from these cultures. Leave the roleplaying
in the games or in the bedrooms of us deviants. Be proud of who you are,
don't swipe other folks' cultures.
And not in my books, there weren't ;)
Regards,
Justin
--
Keith Johnson
I find it interesting listening to the discussion/rants on the Sabbat.
Twinks? Out of control?
Personally, I really enjoy running my Sabbat Chronicle. I ran a four
session prelude before they were brought into the creation rites. The
characters were definately humane, normal everyday people. What I
really enjoy is that my players and I can trace the effects of the
rites, games, mentality, and overall brainwashing that the Sabbat has on
a human mind. There is more than enough politics and intrigue to
maintain the atmosphere of backbiting and inter-sect conflicts, but
there is definately the effects of horror for my players. Simply
watching the characters slowly "grow up" in the Sabbat has given our
players plenty of room for appreciating the depths that they have sunk
to. Of course, my game isn't a twink fest, and it doesn't revolve
around combat every session. If you want to place a Sabbat chronicle
next to Camarilla territory, then don't be surprised if every discipline
your characters buy is potence and celerity. Personally, I think a game
based out of a Sabbat stronghold (like Mexico city or New York) holds a
thousand times more character development potential than the way the
game is portrayed. Mindless brutality, from a humans point of view, but
from the Sabbat, they are just protecting their own. They just aren't
going to be bothered by petty things such as "Humanity". Ha! What an
over rated concept!
Then again, I really do enjoy playing the Camarilla as a jack booted
dictatorship from hell. :)
Rev. Keith Johnson
kejo...@ucdavis.edu
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Adaj wrote:
> Probably! Of course, if you read in the "Long Night", the new Mind's
> Eye for Dark Ages, you will notice that those on the "Road of the
> Devil" are to be Narrator Characters! It's the old standard "Everyone
> must play the "good" guy on the white horse...
>
> I'm hoping Clanbook Baali corrects that notion! (NOTE to Sven: I'm
> eagerly anticipating the book, so this better not be a "happy happy
> joy joy" book or a "kill babies for breakfast" either.)
<begin pretentious-writer-attitude-crap>
Something to which I tried to devote a lot of thought and research while
working on _Baali_ was the vampiric condition -- particularly, the
slippage of humanity and even remotely human-seeming behavior over the
passage of years/decades/centuries/millennia -- and what gradually
filled in the void left behind. I see such creatures as being neither
Bela-Lugosi nor Marilyn-Manson, but, rather, increasingly cold and alien
as they spiral further and further into the ennui of immortality.
A lot of this is my own bias; various alternatives to humanity comprise
much of what appeals to me about Sabbat, Black Hand, and other non-
Camarilla styles of gaming. I also see it, however, as particularly
relevant to the Path of Dark Revelations -- let me rephrase that -- the
path of dark REVELATIONS, if you take my meaning. Things which are, and
ought to be, beyond the grasp of limited mortal lifespans and
comprehensions. (There's a Catch-22 inherent therein -- a human being
trying to write about things 'beyond human comprehension.' Bummer. ;)
I'll try to be (deliberately) vague here, for fear of the Contract Mojo
causing me to spontaneously wither and die -- but we've attacked the
filthy-nasty-bad-evil-creatures theme from several different angles, so
as to seed a greater number of potentials. You will (hopefully) see
hints of drooling-infernal-servant Baali (generally used as look-we-
killed-the-devil-worshippers fodder by their elders), cagey-crafty-
infiltrator Baali, bloodthirsty-zealot-champion-of-chaos Baali, probing-
the-mystery-of-existence-arcanist Baali, Lasombra-hybrid-shadow-
creature-soulless-husk Baali, creatures-from-Beyond quasi-Cthuloid
Baali, and completely alien hive-mind-we-are-the-swarm Baali -- all of
whom revere independent, fractured faces of their enigmatic god-king.
Of course, we've recently had a Dark Ages line developer changeover,
so my guess is no better than yours regarding what happens now.
Dansky's good people, though; I'm sure he'll take our shambling wreck
of a cobbled manuscript and hone it into an unparalleled work of art. ;)
As for the babies-for-breakfast deal... well, hey, it was a Black Dog
book, had some icky-sticky Black Dog content, yadda yadda yadda. Comes
with the territory, I guess. Blame Lucien. *chuckle*
<end pretention>
<end attitude>
<more crap I reserve rights to deal out liberally at some later date>
-- S. Skoog
John Sweeney
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote in article
<34954f70...@news.connact.com>...
> >- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
>
> I don't play werewolf, but if a game had been going on for a REALLY
> long time, wouldn't it be okay for the werewolves to have Rank-six
> Gifts?
>
In general, if a Werewolf has a Rank-Six gift, it's twinky. If an entire
pack of Werewolves survived long enough to get Rank-Six gifts, either it's
twinky, a miracle, or they're too cowardly to give up their lives fighting
the _really tough_ agents of the Wyrm, and no spirit in their right mind
would teach them Rank-Six gifts, anyway.
And miracles don't generally happen in the World of Darkness.
> >- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
> >(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
> >shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
> >sucks.
>
> Hey, watch it. If my NWO MiB doesn't wear mirrored sunglasses and a
> trenchcoat, what else is he going to wear?
>
The standard issue black trousers, white collared shirt, black tie, and
black sport-coat, with a serviceable pair of black-lensed sunglasses for
outside daytime use such as driving. Watch MIB, even if it is a silly
movie, they have the costumes _down_.
> >- If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> >Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> >yet.
>
> Oh, please. With all the Hollow Ones, blood dolls, and just plain
> Goths, parTICularly in the WoD (as I see it), a vampire could wear
> PRECISELY that kind of stuff and never have to think twice about it.
> There are lots of folks who think they're vampires now, imagine how
> many there would be in the WoD...
>
Just because more people are doing it, it doesn't mean someone who does it
is any less of a dork.
Oh, and Justin:
You 'da bomb.
Colin J Bunnell
I generally agree, Justin (and I certainly laughed). But...
In article <3494C000...@mindspring.com>, Justin R. Achilli (jach...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: - No one is impressed with what a gore-fest your Sabbat game was.
Define "gore-fest". I run a Sabbat chronicle and, as is
almost indispensible (IMHO) in such a chronicle, there is
a fair amount of blood/gore/guts/veins-in-the-teeth.
It's not the point of the chronicle, by any means, but
I do think it helps to set the mood - the World of
Darkness is a violent place. Furthermore, I don't think
there is an either-or relationship between psychological
horror and violent splatter-horror. Each makes the other
more effective, if done right.
: - If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
: your game sucks.
Total, or by one person? We've had a couple of mass melees
which certainly resulted in >25BP spent, spread among
a goodly number of vampires. Such combats are rare, but
they do happen. Particularly when the players insist
on taking on more powerful vampires than they (if a certain
Lasombra weren't a reasonably good tactician, more of
my players' characters would certainly be dead by now.)
: - Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
: somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
Again, *probably*. Some characters are fervent diablerists.
If their storyteller doesn't bother assessing any negative
consequences to diablerie, then yes, that's a problem. (my
chronicle does have such consequences, but since at least
two of my players read and post to this newsgroup with
great frequency, I'm not going to go into them. Wouldn't
want to ruin the surprise for Sven.)
: - If you kill your family after playing Vampire, you had other problems
: to begin with.
Amen.
: - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
: Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
: yet.
Depends on which clubs the characters frequent.
: But, hey, I like the Spice Girls. What do I know?
Speaking of horror...
-c
--
Colin Bunnell cbun...@lynx.neu.edu
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility
against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
-Jefferson
Deirdre M. Brooks
>- How to combine the character types into amalgamated monstrosities of
>twink-wank Trait wet dreams (the only horror I can envision here is
>looking at the character sheet)
Must resemble that Malkavian character sheet printed in WW magazine a few
years ago.
>- Endless diatribe over which splat could kick the bejeezus out of which
>other splat
Those are poisonous threads, with deceptive attractiveness. Responding to
them is an insane, suicidal, yet overly tempting option.
The only other option is killfile.
>- Nauseating, if well-reasoned, discussion over how the World of
>Darkness fits into the Mage "paradigm" (If a situation in life ever
>arises in which the word "paradigm" is keenly suited, switch vocations!)
You'd think this would end.
>- A whole mess of my-opinion-is-dogma
Well, it is, dammit.
>- An equal mess of shut-up-it-is-not (like this one)
Just as entertaining to read.
>- The occasional in-character delusion posted to an OOC thread
>- The more frequent OOC delusion somehow interjected into an OOC thread
>- Crackpot conspiracy theories ranging from the White Wolf-beatific to
>the I Hate You Fuckers for What You Did to [Pet Game Aspect X]
Of course... White Wolf exists to destroy the RPG Industry. Dansky told me
at ICC 1.
>- Ad infinitum.
>There's not a whole lot of reasonable discussion going on here. There's
>not a whole lot of horror gaming going on here. There's a bunch of
Of course not, this is the Internet...the cause of the eventual downfall
of human civilization - the world's biggest damned game of telephone.
>verbal effluvia in this NG. To that end, I offer the following -- the
There is a bunch of verbal effluvia in *every* newsgroup. I think this
reply falls into that category (my reply, that is).
>concise Justin R. Achilli guide to World of Darkness gaming. Accept this
>in the spirit with which it is presented: I'm a guy who likes these
>games, but I'm not trying to force my outlook on you. When the weight of
>the World of Darkness is on your shoulders, you may find some solace in
>my tender words. Without further ado, then....
I already feel better.
>Axioms
>------
>- You are not Celtic.
>- You are not a Gypsy.
>- You are not an American Indian.
You know, my last Mage ST claimed all of the above.
I wonder what that means. Then again, he also thought personal horror
meant PC-inspired killing sprees.
>- You are not a vampire.
That was someone else I knew, but I never gamed with him.
>- This is not Champions.
Not according to my ex-roommates. Then again, any game in which you have
super strength is Champions.
>- This is not AD&D.
Not according to my ex-roommates...ah, to hell with it.
>- This may be Call of Cthulhu, but then again, it may not.
>- Marilyn Manson is actually pretty cool, in spite of themselves.
>Idioms
>------
>- More Traits doth not a better character make.
And if you like coloring in all of those dots?
>- Abominations are dumb. Unless they're cool.
"So, what makes your character cool?" "It's a Malkavian-Kitsune
abomination." "Alright, so what makes your character cool?"
>- No one is impressed with what a gore-fest your Sabbat game was.
>- If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
>your game sucks.
Funny, my ex-roommates think that any game in which fewer than 25 blood
points are spent in a single combat just isn't dangerous enough.
>- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
Even if it's one NPC who never uses it?
>- If your Pooka has access to spheres, your game sucks.
Ouch.
>- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
>get too cocky, kiddo.
*laugh* No one ever wants to play Wraith around these parts.
>Principles
>----------
>- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
>(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
>shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
>sucks.
What if you have mirrored rose-tinted sunglasses which you wear just so
that everything appears to be moving away from you at the speed of light?
What if you have pistols just like that twin pair in Face/Off but you
never remember to load them?
>- No one even wants to hear about your character.
Say this one three times. Out loud.
>- Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
>somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
No, it definitely sucks. I sold the t-shirt, damnit.
>- If your Mage "crackles with ambient power," you need a girlfriend.*
"You're in more dire need of a blow-job than any white man in history."
>- If you kill your family after playing Vampire, you had other problems
>to begin with.
>- There's more to life than arguing with be...@klaatu.org about whose
>paradigm is bolted on and whose meshes with the rest of the cosmology.
Well, yes, but it's not nearly as much fun to go there.
>- WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
>Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
>have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
Even if it involves Hengeyokai from the Year of the Lotus? Yeah, I agree
about the others.
>- If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
>Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
>yet.
This one comes up at nearly every LARP. Of course, the guy who wore
Victorian clothing also confessed his every sin to a priest.
Damned Caitiff.
>Meta-Wisdom
>-----------
>- It's your game.
>- If you don't like it, change it.
So why do the players get out the knives when I bring out the revisions to
my house rules?
>* Or boyfriend. Or whatever.
>But, hey, I like the Spice Girls. What do I know?
Okay, I just wasted bandwidth, but since your post lifted my mood, I
needed to do it.
>[Justin R. Achilli]
>[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
>[jach...@mindspring.com]
Deird'Re M. Brooks
James Coupe
In article <34954f70...@news.connact.com>, kraig_blackwelder@?.com
writes
>>Idioms
>
>>- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
>
>long time, wouldn't it be okay for the werewolves to have Rank-six
>Gifts?
That's like asking:
"If my V:tM game has been going on for a long time, is it alright if my
vampires have level ten disciplines?"
(Discounting the possibility of Golconda because, well, you know..)
--
James Coupe (remove some crap to reply)
Pah!! I hope it shits in your jogging suit!
Captain Rodent
George Weinberg wrote:
> I got the impression White Wolf regretted releasing player's guide to
> the Sabbat. Sure it's probably one of the best written books they've
> got, but it makes the Sabbat playable characters and they're supposed
> to be antagonists. The Storytellers Guide to the Sabbat was IMO
> in many ways backpedalling from making them playable chracters, as
> has most stuff about them since then been.
>
> They were quite careful never to make this "mistake" with the
> Black Spiral or Tecnocracy, nothing like players' guides for them,
> the technocracy books have a little crap about running Technocracy
> campaign, but it's pretty clear the only campaign they would want you
> to even consider running is "you start out as agents of the technocracy,
> discover what scum your masters are, and try to revolt".
>
> would show how absurd the caricatures are. An organization whose
> overriding goal is to make the world as banal as possible? An
> organization whose primary goal is to pollute? Please.
They still released Freak Legion making it possible to play fomor
characters, which is surely about the same thing,
Captain Rodent
j_h...@hotmail.com
In article <349587F8...@mindspring.com>,
> slight intended to those of _actual_ ethnic descent described above. I'm
> bitching about that segment of the gaming-pop audience for whom it is
> now "cool" to pretend to hail from these cultures.
I see what you're driving at and whilst I agree that it is extremely
uncool to be unable to separate real life and gaming, I don't think the
bizarre celtic cool-quotient is gaming specific. I had the impression it
was a very American thing to hold up the fact that you had one
grandparent who once spent 2 weeks on holiday in Dublin as proof of your
celtic roots. This also the country where people who have never been to
Scotland have 'clan meetings' and spend their life savings on a trip to
wander round Edinburgh in a kilt (ie. the sort of thing that makes
self-respecting Scots wince in sympathy).
I hate to say it but I don't think that's at all to do with gaming-pop so
much as pop-pop.
> Leave the roleplaying
> in the games or in the bedrooms of us deviants.
(You mean 'and', not or ;) ).
> And not in my books, there weren't ;)
>
Nope, no celts in Clanbook Giovanni ;-) Or don't scots count....
jo
(Gearing up to see Spiceworld on Dec 26th!)
ps. OK, that was a cheap shot, especially as I really liked the book and
the fabled lowland cannibals (whose names I have forgotten) were a family
who actually existed.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Gumby
Justin I would Just like to say that you are my Hero.
Gumby
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, James Coupe wrote:
> In article <34954f70...@news.connact.com>, kraig_blackwelder@?.com
> writes
> >>Idioms
> >
> >>- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
> >
> >I don't play werewolf, but if a game had been going on for a REALLY
> >long time, wouldn't it be okay for the werewolves to have Rank-six
> >Gifts?
>
> That's like asking:
>
> "If my V:tM game has been going on for a long time, is it alright if my
> vampires have level ten disciplines?"
>
> (Discounting the possibility of Golconda because, well, you know..)
>
> --
>
> James Coupe (remove some crap to reply)
>
> Pah!! I hope it shits in your jogging suit!
>
>
Ha! Everyone knows there's no such thing as Golconda.
Soran
Justin R. Achilli wrote:
{snip}
> - Nauseating, if well-reasoned, discussion over how the World of
> Darkness fits into the Mage "paradigm" (If a situation in life ever
> arises in which the word "paradigm" is keenly suited, switch vocations!)
Well, gee, we're presented with certain 'facts' that don't work right.
Supernatural creatures don't exist because of unbelief, yet you're playing
in the WoD with creatures which break almost every single law of physics,
and when someone tries to explain it (read: make some sense out of it) you
call it nauseating? Besides, _YOU_ guys brought it up in the first place! I
_do_ agree with the second statement about paradigms, tho.
> Axioms
> ------
>
> - You are not Celtic.
Check
> - You are not a Gypsy.
Check
> - You are not an American Indian.
Check
> - You are not a vampire.
Check
> - This is not Champions.
Check
> - This is not AD&D.
Check
> - This may be Call of Cthulhu, but then again, it may not.
To some we are angels, to others, demons.
> - Marilyn Manson is actually pretty cool, in spite of themselves.
Sure...
> Idioms
> ------
>
> - More Traits doth not a better character make.
Yeah, it's so much easier to survive with LESS ability.
> - Abominations are dumb. Unless they're cool.
In other words, they're better left as NPCs.
> - No one is impressed with what a gore-fest your Sabbat game was.
Too bad half the books depict this unimpressive gore-fest in great detail,
going as far as having pictures of dead/dying people.
> - If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
> your game sucks.
Has your coterie ever gotten in a real fight? Or do you pick on one neonate
at a time while everyone leaves you alone?
> - If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
It can really detract from the true 'flavor' of the game. Same can be said
about having two or three rank 6 Spheres, or maybe five rank 8 Disciplines.
> - If your Pooka has access to spheres, your game sucks.
Twinkfest '98.
> - If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> get too cocky, kiddo.
Wrong. Any game can suck. Yeah, I have a 10 Pathos and every single Wraith
power in existance.
> Principles
> ----------
>
> - If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
> (black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
> shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
> sucks.
Fun is in the eye of the beholder... of course, you'd look kind of silly...
or suspicious as hell!
> - No one even wants to hear about your character.
Maybe not yours...
> - Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
> somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
Unless you've _earned_ it?
> - If your Mage "crackles with ambient power," you need a girlfriend.*
Huh? I fail to see how you arrived at this conclusion.
> - If you kill your family after playing Vampire, you had other problems
> to begin with.
Uhhh, that's a big 'yes'.
> - There's more to life than arguing with be...@klaatu.org about whose
> paradigm is bolted on and whose meshes with the rest of the cosmology.
Yes, there's more to life... arguing can be (for some people) _part_ of it.
> - WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
> Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
> have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
No argument here... Federation Officers? I'd never even considered that
idea...
> - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> yet.
Maybe a high level of Presence? :)
--
__________________________________________________________________________
"Come to the edge," he said
-Soran They said: "We are afraid"
"Come to the edge," he said
They came
http://www.primenet.com/~soran He pushed them...
and they flew.
- Guiláume Appollinaire
__________________________________________________________________________
j_h...@hotmail.com
I dunno about White Wolf but /I/ hate the Sabbat ;-)
The main reason is nothing to do with the actual books but purely because
since they came out people have been very quick to identify the Camarilla
as 'good' vampires and the Sabbat as 'bad' vampires.
Camarilla vampires can be every bit as nasty as Sabbat, in many cases
worse in a dramatic sense because they still have a vestige of humanity.
They know what they are doing.
Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any 'interesting'
Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect I could find a way
to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher, power-crazed monomaniac
etc etc. Sure your stereotypical bloodthirsty pack couldn't, nor your
vicious tzimisce vivsectionist but I don't think I'd want to play or ST
for anyonen who was doing that anyway. Also there are some really bad
continuity problems I have with the way the Sabbat is presented, enough
that I can't suspend disbelief. They'd either have taken over the
vampiric world or (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
Its the humanity that makes vampires interesting to me, as PCs or as an
ST, the fact that they are torn between two states of being. I can find
all the really interesting shades of grey and appealing themes in a
straight Camarilla game. Sabbat are.. irrelevant. They will be
assimilated ;)
jo
Jay Knioum
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.971216...@sparrow.qut.edu.au>,
Gumby <n163...@sparrow.qut.edu.au> wrote:
> Ha! Everyone knows there's no such thing as Golconda.
My Nos had all the "Planet of the Apes" films on tape. Does that count?
:D :D
Stay loose...
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro
Carrie A Schutrick
>- You are not Celtic.
Actually, I am. About 1/4, on my mother's side. Mostly
Irish with a little Lowland Scotts.
>- You are not a Gypsy.
>- You are not an American Indian.
This is true, though on my dad's side we've got some
Romanian blood.
>- If your werewolves have Rank-Six Gifts, your game sucks.
I can't speak for Werewolf since I don't play it, but isn't it
possible that the game is just an old one?
>- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
>get too cocky, kiddo.
Seems far more likely to me that it's simply so angst-ridden that
everyone THINKS it must be good. Remember that you can go just
as far overboard in Wraith as in any other game, and more darkness
does not necessarily imply more good roleplaying.
>- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
>(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
>shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
>sucks.
The only one of those I can argue with is the duster, which I think
is equivalent to a trenchcoat or full-length raincoat. They're practical
items of clothing, y'know, and handy for concealing things.
>- WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
>Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
>have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
Well, Dragons and Demons are right out, except in the Umbra--
either that or your GM should be assessing huge penalties on your
abilities. Federation officers could actually be fun--what if Star
Trek didn't always have a happy ending? I think Antedilvians are
too powerful to be fun, but that's just me. As for 'Highlanders,'
with all the other wierd and wonderful supernaturals running
around, what's so unusual about people whose sole interesting
power is that they don't age? I mean, you could be playing a
Vampire who can rip people apart with his bare hands as well as
being nigh invulnerable to most forms of attack; why is just the
invulnerability so bad?
>- If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
>Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
>yet.
Either that or they just think you're yet another pretentious Goth
who's confused angst with meaning.
--Carrie S.
*****Carrie Schutri...@andrew.cmu.edu--Pittsburgh PA--CMU*****
<http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~caos>
Unsolicited commercial email sent to this address will be subject to a $1500
processing fee. Sending mail to this address, manually or automatically,
implies consent to these terms.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Colin J Bunnell wrote:
> If their storyteller doesn't bother assessing any negative
> consequences to diablerie, then yes, that's a problem. (my chronicle
> does have such consequences, but since at least two of my players read
> and post to this newsgroup with great frequency, I'm not going to go
> into them. Wouldn't want to ruin the surprise for Sven.)
*groan*
-- S. Skoog
(In for a left-handed birthday
present, apparently)
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Soran wrote:
[in response to Justin Achilli]
>> - This may be Call of Cthulhu, but then again, it may not.
>
> To some we are angels, to others, demons.
The quote, as I recall things, goes 'Explorers of the further
reaches of experience... demons to some... angels to others.'
(Source, for those who haven't clued in, is _Hellraiser_ --
or, more appropriately, _The Hellbound Heart_.)
I had my heart set on using it as an epigram in a recent work,
but the period of the piece made it inappropriate. Maybe someday...
-- S. Skoog
Jay Knioum
In article <3494C000...@mindspring.com>,
"Justin R. Achilli" <jach...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> - If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
> (black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
> shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
> sucks.
Or is just standard issue Cyberpunk... (Or a con-goer...it could be 90
degrees and dry outside, and every third gamer is in a trenchcoat)
> - Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
> somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
"And the winner of the Golden Hoover Award for Excellence in Diablerie
goes to...."
> - If your Mage "crackles with ambient power," you need a girlfriend.
What if my girlfriend crackles with ambient power?
> - WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
> Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
> have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
Well, this is a given, considering that a floor-length whatever is already
sucky, and it's required equipment for immortals...
> - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> yet.
However, if your vamp is dressed like a highlander, a dragon, a demon or
a Federation Officer, she could get by just fine at your average
convention...
The sartorial nightmare doesn't stop with PCs; it also creeps into
Storytellers. Just *once* I wanna see the Prince saunter in wearing
cutoffs and a South Park T-Shirt... ;)
Good post, Justin... <golf clap>
Feyd-Rautha
>Deird'Re M. Brooks
As just a brief point...there are a lot of goths out there.
Only about 5% of them think they are really vampires (we're
working on pounding the delusions out of them, honest).
Someone dressed in gothic gear is not necessarily a vampire...
although it may be the best trick of the Masquerade...
"yeah, gotta go drink some blood...no no, I'm not a vampire, really..."
(mortal's response): "bloody delusional goths...."
and also, Andrew Eldritch looks *nothing* like a goth anymore
(wearing white and getting a frat-boy haircut tends to make the
normals NOT say "bloody goth"
-Feyd (a blackguard)
Priest: Monterey Church of Elemental Chaos & member of alt.gothic.CR
"Feyd looking innocent is about as likely as a scorpion looking cuddly"-TTK
GoHu6Ph4ZZ TMAnNr9 PRLNi B/35Bk+]2"1 cBk(DBR)w7 V4s M3p1 ZGoExClbPusJaj C6o
a26- n6 b65 H188 g7!0486A mEa5@S4# w6! v3 r7eISP p5Z565Ed D77~! h6{TAnFeNr}
sM8n SsWy k6BdSMmDspNRW Rn N0992HPN RzS LusCA3
Bruce Baugh
>>- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
>>get too cocky, kiddo.
> Seems far more likely to me that it's simply so angst-ridden that
>everyone THINKS it must be good. Remember that you can go just
>as far overboard in Wraith as in any other game, and more darkness
>does not necessarily imply more good roleplaying.
<voice style="standard Wraith screed">
Wraith ISN'T darker than the others. Indeed, I'd argue that it's the
game with broadest scope for constructive, improving, optimistic action.
Okay, so you're one of the restless dead, and if you're not careful you
become Shadow-eaten, or decorative lawn furniture. But by and large, the
worst has happened. Your character has reasons to engage with the world
and opportunities to do so, on scales from the intensely personal to the
global.
I've been going through all the lines lately, working up notes for next
year's Tokyo book, and my personal feeling is that it is more likely
that a wraith will be in position to say "yes, the world is a better
place for my presence and actions" than any other kind of WoD character.
And angst-muppets don't last long in the Shadowlands. Whining is a good
quick path to Oblivion.
</voice>
Bruce Baugh <*>
bruce...@sff.net <*>
http://www.sff.net/people/bruce-baugh - New sf by
S.M. Stirling, rolegaming essays, sundry stuff
Bruce Baugh
>The sartorial nightmare doesn't stop with PCs; it also creeps into
>Storytellers. Just *once* I wanna see the Prince saunter in wearing
>cutoffs and a South Park T-Shirt... ;)
A friend was thinking about visiting his local Cam group with bright
slacks and paisley shirts. And indeed it seems to me that at least
_some_ creatures doomed never to see the sun will go in for a Venetian
or Sun Court style. "So we're creatures of the night. We shall make a
new day for ourselves."
Raindog
In article <19971215120...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Jcalvan545 <jcalv...@aol.com> wrote:
>>- You are not Celtic.
>>- You are not a Gypsy.
>>- You are not an American Indian.
>
>I'm not, I've never claimed to be. Don't you think that's a slightly dangerous
>assumption to make of *everyone* who reads this group though?
*sigh* What stopped her mother from eating her young? Could she be
persuaded to go back on her decision?
>O_o I guess you *do* hate everything...
Yes, but he's cool while he does it.
>-Justin
G.
--
|Geoffrey C. Grabowski | Freelance JOAT-A | rai...@io.com | Swing Heil!|
[O] "It's so easy when you're evil, and I do it all for free;
[O] Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need."
[O] -Voltaire, "When You're Evil"
Richard Dansky
> > - If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> > get too cocky, kiddo.
>
> power in existance.
>
the absolute standard for /all/ wraiths who aren't named The Smiling
Lord, Gorool or Charon.
Do not call up in rules points that which ye cannot quote accurately,
or I shall be forced to put ye down :-)
---deadguy
PS-And don't be bringing that 1st Edition stuff in here.
--
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=00-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
Richard E. Dansky, aka The Deadguy: Developer, Wraith: The Oblivion &
Mind's Eye Theatre, White Wolf Gaming Studios
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
"I hate the living." - Dr. Laurel Wagner, Men In Black
Richard Dansky
Actually, I rewrote the whole thing so that the Baali are
misunderstood heroes, unfairly denigrated by the rest of vampiric
society but willing to absorb the abuse for the greater good.
Honestly.
*wink*
*grin*
deadguy
Jay Knioum
In article <01bd08ff$72f54040$51068ed0@coke>,
"Mr.Goodbytes" <toxic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> You think maybe its because the "good guys" arn't really where White Wolf
> wants Vampire to be, but acts like they are the favored group to avoid
> media outcry over how "satanic" the game is, and to keep the money rolling
> in from people who don't like to play anybody thats got the least bit of
> evil in them?
Nah.
As for the money rolling in, I have trouble believing gamers who don't
like to play characters with "the least bit of evil in them" would plunk
down nickel one for *any* WoD book, be it Cam, Sabbat, or even
Changeling. Just about any WoD beastie you can play has a dark side.
Folks who prefer not to explore that dark side will just move on to a
different game, entirely.
As for the Cam's print-dominance, I think it has more to do with matters
of the WoD itself than any real-world concerns. The Cam is simply the
most prolific vampiric society in the world (Although, Kindred of the
East may change that, but we'll see). Another point is that the game's
origins are with the Camarilla, thus it naturally gets more airtime. If
the game had begun from the Sabbat POV, then it probably would have the
most printed material, while the Camarilla would be relegated to
supplements.
Justin R. Achilli
j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <349587F8...@mindspring.com>,
> "Justin R. Achilli" <jach...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Leave the roleplaying
> > in the games or in the bedrooms of us deviants.
>
> (You mean 'and', not or ;) ).
Touche'.
> > And not in my books, there weren't ;)
> >
>
> Nope, no celts in Clanbook Giovanni ;-) Or don't scots count....
Stereotypes, not Celts. And those Scots are up to no good, so be careful
what you say :)
> jo
>
> (Gearing up to see Spiceworld on Dec 26th!)
Argh! I noted that you have a hotmail account, Jo. Are you over in the
UK? Us Americans ain't get Spiceworld until January, I think.
> ps. OK, that was a cheap shot, especially as I really liked the book and
> the fabled lowland cannibals (whose names I have forgotten) were a family
> who actually existed.
Hey, I appreciate a cheap shot as much as the next guy ;)
Regards,
Justin
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
[jach...@mindspring.com]
Justin R. Achilli
Colin J Bunnell wrote:
>
> I generally agree, Justin (and I certainly laughed). But...
>
> In article <3494C000...@mindspring.com>, Justin R. Achilli (jach...@mindspring.com) wrote:
>
> : - No one is impressed with what a gore-fest your Sabbat game was.
>
> Define "gore-fest". I run a Sabbat chronicle and, as is
> almost indispensible (IMHO) in such a chronicle, there is
> a fair amount of blood/gore/guts/veins-in-the-teeth.
Agreed. I'm talking about the "Our game is _so_ EEEEEVIL" chumps.
> : - If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
> : your game sucks.
>
> Total, or by one person? We've had a couple of mass melees
> which certainly resulted in >25BP spent, spread among
> a goodly number of vampires. Such combats are rare, but
> they do happen. Particularly when the players insist
> on taking on more powerful vampires than they (if a certain
> Lasombra weren't a reasonably good tactician, more of
> my players' characters would certainly be dead by now.)
To open a new can of worms, very few of my (game) combats are lethal.
I've been in a fair share of fights, myself, and I've never wished for a
Discipline that would allow me to blow my opponents into heaps of
steaming torsos. Again, this is all personal style (don't forget the
Meta-Advice!), but most of my combats involve _no_ BP expenditure.
> : - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> : Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> : yet.
>
> Depends on which clubs the characters frequent.
Even at the "goth bars," the rave kids are taking over.
I prefer to simply be fabulous, rather than a subculture :)
> : But, hey, I like the Spice Girls. What do I know?
>
> Speaking of horror...
And evil. *wink*
Justin R. Achilli
Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
> In <3494C000...@mindspring.com> "Justin R. Achilli" <jach...@mindspring.com> writes:
> >- You are not Celtic.
> >- You are not a Gypsy.
> >- You are not an American Indian.
>
> You know, my last Mage ST claimed all of the above.
>
> I wonder what that means. Then again, he also thought personal horror
> meant PC-inspired killing sprees.
_Precisely_ what I was talking about. Yeesh.
> Okay, I just wasted bandwidth, but since your post lifted my mood, I
> needed to do it.
Sing it on the mountain, girlfriend!
Regards,
Justin
Wasting more bandwidth
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
[jach...@mindspring.com]
Justin R. Achilli
Feyd-Rautha wrote:
> As just a brief point...there are a lot of goths out there.
> Only about 5% of them think they are really vampires (we're
> working on pounding the delusions out of them, honest).
> Someone dressed in gothic gear is not necessarily a vampire...
> although it may be the best trick of the Masquerade...
> "yeah, gotta go drink some blood...no no, I'm not a vampire, really..."
> (mortal's response): "bloody delusional goths...."
I know. I was just a bit punchy after some weekend debauchery. I'm also
sure you'll agree with me that relatively few "goths" would fit the
definition of "gothic".
> and also, Andrew Eldritch looks *nothing* like a goth anymore
> (wearing white and getting a frat-boy haircut tends to make the
> normals NOT say "bloody goth"
What's a frat-boy haircut?
Regards,
Justin the Bald
--
[Justin R. Achilli]
[Author/Developer/Miscreant]
[jach...@mindspring.com]
Justin R. Achilli
>
> > - If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
> > (black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
> > shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
> > sucks.
>
> Or is just standard issue Cyberpunk... (Or a con-goer...it could be 90
> degrees and dry outside, and every third gamer is in a trenchcoat)
And most smell like it's 90 degrees and they've been wearing trenchcoats
:) At least us Vampire fans tend to be less stinky than most gamers....
> > - Any game in which a character starts out at thirteenth generation, but
> > somehow ends up as sixth, probably sucks.
>
> "And the winner of the Golden Hoover Award for Excellence in Diablerie
> goes to...."
>
> > - If your Mage "crackles with ambient power," you need a girlfriend.
>
> What if my girlfriend crackles with ambient power?
ROFL! Love it!
Damn, that was good.
> > - WoD games that allow players to assume the roles of Highlanders,
> > Dragons, Demons, Federation Officers and Antediluvians had better not
> > have anyone over the age of 11 at the table.
>
> Well, this is a given, considering that a floor-length whatever is already
> sucky, and it's required equipment for immortals...
Complemented with bad accents, usually vaguely Hibernian.
> > - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> > Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> > yet.
>
> However, if your vamp is dressed like a highlander, a dragon, a demon or
> a Federation Officer, she could get by just fine at your average
> convention...
Few breaches of the Masquerade occur at cons. Hell, dynamic magick is
static at cons....
Regards,
Justin
Justin R. Achilli
Soran wrote:
>
> Justin R. Achilli wrote:
> > - More Traits doth not a better character make.
>
> Yeah, it's so much easier to survive with LESS ability.
I would say the exact same thing.
> > - Abominations are dumb. Unless they're cool.
>
> In other words, they're better left as NPCs.
Or they go through me for approval. Jokes! I got jokes!
> > - If your game sees more than 25 Blood Points spent in a single combat,
> > your game sucks.
>
> Has your coterie ever gotten in a real fight? Or do you pick on one neonate
> at a time while everyone leaves you alone?
My coterie slaps cheerleaders and diablerizes cans of red pop. :)
> > - If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> > get too cocky, kiddo.
>
> Wrong. Any game can suck. Yeah, I have a 10 Pathos and every single Wraith
> power in existance.
"Probably." And these are _my_ opinions. Though I may not agree with
what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.
> > - No one even wants to hear about your character.
>
> Maybe not yours...
Or my lack thereof? ;)
> > - If your character wears Victorian clothing or looks like Andrew
> > Eldritch, it's a miracle the mortals haven't pegged you as a vampire
> > yet.
>
> Maybe a high level of Presence? :)
Or a cadre of wookiee Abominations.
Regards,
Justin
Shoplifter of the World
LenaFalk
>Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any 'interesting'
>Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect I could find a way
>to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher, power-crazed monomaniac
>etc etc. Sure your stereotypical bloodthirsty pack couldn't, nor your
>vicious tzimisce vivsectionist but I don't think I'd want to play or ST
>for anyonen who was doing that anyway. Also there are some really bad
>continuity problems I have with the way the Sabbat is presented, enough
>that I can't suspend disbelief. They'd either have taken over the
>vampiric world or (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
I have to agree, along with the fact that I think
a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
its members, and is generally based on splatter/
violence, cannot endure for long.
What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
I guess that the Sabbat would find it increasingly difficult
to exist without a Masquerade when Vampire Hunters
who go for the really obvious types are on their heels.
Lena
____________________
I'm a bitch - I'm a lover
I'm a child - I'm a mother
I'm a sinner - I'm a saint -
I do not feel ashamed
M. Brooks
JLHeinig
>
>Actually, I rewrote the whole thing so that the Baali are
>misunderstood heroes, unfairly denigrated by the rest of vampiric
>society but willing to absorb the abuse for the greater good.
>
>Honestly.
I thought that was the Ventrue.
*skritch*
*shrug*
Jess Heinig
P.S. Yes, I'm just joking. Don't make a big deal out of it.
Soran
Richard Dansky wrote:
> > > - If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> > > get too cocky, kiddo.
> >
> > Wrong. Any game can suck. Yeah, I have a 10 Pathos and every single Wraith
> > power in existance.
> >
> Err, any wraith can have 10 Pathos...it's like Blood pool, only 10 is
> the absolute standard for /all/ wraiths who aren't named The Smiling
> Lord, Gorool or Charon.
Uhh, yeah, I knew that... I was... testing you! Yeah, I was testing you!
Soran
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> Soran wrote:
> [in response to Justin Achilli]
>
> >> - This may be Call of Cthulhu, but then again, it may not.
> >
> > To some we are angels, to others, demons.
>
> The quote, as I recall things, goes 'Explorers of the further
> reaches of experience... demons to some... angels to others.'
> (Source, for those who haven't clued in, is _Hellraiser_ --
> or, more appropriately, _The Hellbound Heart_.)
Is that what Hellraiser II was called? It's been years since I saw it.
Keith Johnson
LenaFalk wrote:
>
> I have to agree, along with the fact that I think
> a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
> its members, and is generally based on splatter/
> violence, cannot endure for long.
>
> What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
> up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
> after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
>
> I guess that the Sabbat would find it increasingly difficult
> to exist without a Masquerade when Vampire Hunters
> who go for the really obvious types are on their heels.
>
> Lena
The Sabbat preachs freedom, but they still have to obey the local
Cardinal, participate in rites (especially the vauldrie), and even have
a freaking inquisition in their own ranks!!! However, I don't let that
disrupt my Sabbat Chronicle. After all, the Sabbat, like _any_ group of
vampires, is formed of hypocrites. Like any good sentient, they have
convinced themselves of the righteousness of their cause, and their
individual superiority. The Sabbat, in my chronicle, functions more
like an inhuman-undead-cult-mob. In their quest to reach total freedom,
they eat and breath the Jyhad. A philosophy revolving around direct
conflict with the minions of the Antideluvians tends to warp any
organization.
My players, and NPC have easily rationalized the contridictions inherent
to Sabbat philosophy.
The Myth of the Sabbat not following the Masquerade
===================================================
The Sabbat laugh at the Camarilla. Hiding from the kine, under the
shadow of the "path of humanity". However, just because you believe
yourself ultra superior to an inferior being, doesn't mean you are going
to be an idiot. I don't care HOW powerful the vampire is (unless they
are 4th gen or less), Sunlight really hurts. Guess who can walk about
in daylight? Human are superior to animals, but they still watch what
they are doing in the woods. Remember some of the punishements and laws
in the Sabbat? Causing a fellow sabbat to be injured has a pretty mean
punishment. Go ahead, kill humans in the street. If anyone gets hurt
due to the hunters following up on the incident, you are going to be
wearing a concrete helmet watching the sunlight. They don't SAY they
follow the Masquerade, but they do.
The Myth of pure freedom
========================
Lets face it: the Sabbat are on the losing end of a war. Couple this
with a cult mentality, and they start getting a bit organized. Do
whatever it takes to win, right? This is why there is 1) the
Inquisition, and 2) a power heirarchy. The ranks of the Sabbat are
determined the same way as the Camarilla. Are you a bad ass? Do you
have alot of influence? Can you drive your foes into Torpor or final
death? Odds are you are a leader in the Sabbat. Other Sabbat (those
without the super physical disciplines, or lack of experience) will
cling to these people in order to survive the chaos around them. If you
were in a war, you would stick with the person with the longest survival
record? Sure as hell I would. As for the Inquisition, they simply
compare them to the Camarilla. To be in the Camarilla, is to be chained
in blood to elders. To serve the infernal is the to be chained to
demons. Neither sound like a good idea. Furthermore, neither Demons,
nor the Camarilla are working to help the Sabbat's goals. Thus, they
must be ruthlessly expunged from the Sabbat. of course, having a
dedicated group to work on that problem is a good idea.
The Sabbat are simply from an incredibly wacked point of view, but I
think with work, it functions just fine. That is, as long as you don't
have twinkies in the group.
Rev. Keith Johnson
Raindog
In article <3497206E...@primenet.com>, Soran <so...@primenet.com> wrote:
>sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
>> The quote, as I recall things, goes 'Explorers of the further
>> reaches of experience... demons to some... angels to others.'
>> (Source, for those who haven't clued in, is _Hellraiser_ --
>> or, more appropriately, _The Hellbound Heart_.)
>
> Is that what Hellraiser II was called? It's been years since I saw it.
No. It's the name of the Clive Barker novella that the movie
Hellraiser is adapted from.
> -Soran They said: "We are afraid"
G.
Stunt Borg
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I dunno about White Wolf but /I/ hate the Sabbat ;-)
Heh. Conditionally agreed. I like the idea of the Sabbat but loathe
its execution.
> The main reason is nothing to do with the actual books but purely
> because since they came out people have been very quick to identify
> the Camarilla as 'good' vampires and the Sabbat as 'bad' vampires.
Sadly, the way they've written them, the Sabbat *are* the 'bad'
vampires. As written, they've stopped fighting the Beast and spend
all their time deliberately frenzying, giving in to the Beast's urges
in a 'controlled' manner, throwing any vestiges of human morality to
the four winds, and mass-mutilating and mass-murdering people just
because "we're vampires and we'll behave anyway we want because
we can."
The situation is so bad that, from the Werewolf perspective, the
entire sect is 'allied with the Wyrm' ... and that is the Black
Spiral Dancer opinion (Book of the Wyrm)!
(snip)
> Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any
> 'interesting' Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect
> I could find a way to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher,
> power-crazed monomaniac etc etc. Sure your stereotypical
> bloodthirsty pack couldn't, nor your vicious tzimisce vivsectionist
> but I don't think I'd want to play or ST for anyonen who was doing
> that anyway.
Bloodthirsty packs fit low-Humanity anarchs well. I dislike the
Sabbat partially because they make the anarchs absolutely redundant.
Both groups have insular loyalty, hatred of the Cam, contempt for the
Masquerade, and frequent deliberate abuse of humans 'for fun'. The
only major differences are that the Sabbat has two major Clans with
wacky-twink Disciplines in it, the Sabbat controls more real estate
in an organized manner, and the Sabbat uses assorted Ritae and
anti-Ante ideology to keep the proles in line.
The Paths seem absolutely pointless and twink-laden. You want another
Path than humanity? Fine. But the easier the Path is, and the more it
caves to the Beast's demands, the lower possible total rank you can
achieve. Path of Honor maxes at 7. Cathari at 5. Evil Revelations at
3. You want to revel in being a vampire? Then *deal* with being weak
during daytime and having low Virtue checks.
I don't mind the *idea* of a sect where the two major components are
vampires-as-inhuman-tyrants and vampires-as-inhumane-spiritualists.
But the execution of the concept lacks considerably.
> Also there are some really bad continuity problems I have with the
> way the Sabbat is presented, enough that I can't suspend disbelief.
> They'd either have taken over the vampiric world or (more likely)
> been comprehensively wiped out.
Completely agreed. This is my largest problem, of which the issue of
'redundant anarchs' is but a small facet.
The Sabbat, on one hand, are supposed to be the sect to have *LOW*
Path ratings, constant channeling of the basest urges of their
Beasts, a philosophical *foundation* that arose from opposition to
treating childer like cannon fodder, and a founding premise that
vampirism is to be explored and embraced by each and every vampire
without the tyranny of Blood Bonds to elders.
And then, somehow, the Sabbat is *also* supposed to be the sect with
coordinated operations from its Beast-riden members, a practice of
embracing dozens of childer in the expectation that many to most will
die, a siege tactic of creating cannon fodder War Party childer to
soften up opposition, and a policy of strongly Vinculuming *everyone*
together such that their free will to explore vampirism is always
subservient to their love/loyalty to those around and above them.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, if the Sabbat operates *anything* like what the books say it
does in siege, then the Camarilla should either have been destroyed
long ago or not operate *anything* like how it is portrayed, and the
Masquerade should have been broken centuries ago. If the Sabbat has
been operating as a well-oiled Masquerade-rending combat machine for
centuries, then the Camarilla should have either united to crush it
or been systematically destroyed by it, and the anarchs should have
fallen without even minor resistance. Either way, the Camarilla
should *not* be a disunited group of standoffish individuals doing
little to nothing to coherently defend themselves against an
ever-surging horde.
Since *no* Camarilla-operation books have come out subsequent to
the Sabbat books, there is nothing to fill in the gaps as far as what
the Camarilla is doing to be the more successful and larger sect.
Instead, in book after book you have assertions that the Camarilla is
incompetent, self-divided, incapable of concerted action, and
absolutely riddled with internal dissent while the Sabbat is focused,
loyal, super-combat-siege-savvy, aggressive, and calculatingly
expansionistic. And yet somehow the Camarilla holds its own decade
after decade. It makes *no* sense, as written.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
will admit to liking the Lasombra and Tzimisce stuff for Dark
Ages, but he *seriously* hopes that the Sabbat Hardcover
cleans up the contradictions and illogic plagueing the current
Sabbat books
James Desborough
> >O_o I guess you *do* hate everything...
>
> Yes, but he's cool while he does it.
>
creativity."
Henry Rollins
GRIM
--
******************************************************************************
* Ping bra-strap and let slip the dugs of war! *
* I now maintain my own site, so it'll get updated! Visit and bookmark it. *
* Andover Fief and Post Mortem Studios at www.postmort.demon.co.uk *
* Cute(ish), Goth(ish) long haired wastrel available. *
* Character sketches, web-page design, custom tarot decks, jacket paintings, *
* anything to make an honest buck. *
* ICQ 3974217 *
******************************************************************************
David Johnston
Bruce Baugh wrote:
>
> In article <YoZeA9a00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, Carrie A Schutrick <ca...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
> >>- If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> >>get too cocky, kiddo.
>
> >everyone THINKS it must be good. Remember that you can go just
> >as far overboard in Wraith as in any other game, and more darkness
> >does not necessarily imply more good roleplaying.
>
> <voice style="standard Wraith screed">
>
> Wraith ISN'T darker than the others. Indeed, I'd argue that it's the
> game with broadest scope for constructive, improving, optimistic action.
Seems to me that would be Mage.
> Okay, so you're one of the restless dead, and if you're not careful you
> become Shadow-eaten, or decorative lawn furniture. But by and large, the
> worst has happened. Your character has reasons to engage with the
I wouldn't say that. After all, being enslaved or soul-forged is worse.
world
> and opportunities to do so, on scales from the intensely personal to the
> global.
Which world? If you are talking about Earth, I've always found a
terrible futility to doing that after your death. It's tantamount
to using mortals as playthings, except that you taint everything
you touch with decay and madness.
>
> I've been going through all the lines lately, working up notes for next
> year's Tokyo book, and my personal feeling is that it is more likely
> that a wraith will be in position to say "yes, the world is a better
> place for my presence and actions" than any other kind of WoD character.
>
> And angst-muppets don't last long in the Shadowlands. Whining is a good
> quick path to Oblivion.
>
> </voice>
>
Thomas Hughes
Justin R. Achilli (jach...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: "Probably." And these are _my_ opinions. Though I may not agree with
: what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Does the one who hates everything enjoy the teachings of Voltaire? Any
other philosophers that you enjoy?
Nietz
Joshua E Culbertson
: LenaFalk wrote:
: >
: > What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
: > up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
: > after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
: >
: > I guess that the Sabbat would find it increasingly difficult
: > to exist without a Masquerade when Vampire Hunters
: > who go for the really obvious types are on their heels.
my understanding of this situation was always that hunters
actually *did* go after the Sabbat, but found the whole practice to be on
the whole fairly lethal. assuming one doesn't have a World of Darkness
with wildly overpowered vampire hunters, most hunters would be hard
pressed to survive long plying their trade in a place like New York.
firstly, as a result of the lax population restrictions, the
place is literally crawling with Kindred and their ghouls. there must be
a fairly serious concentration of Bishops (perhaps even Archbishops) in a
stronghold like New York. consequently, you have the presence of the
Grimaldi maintaining what little "masquerade" they do for the Sabbat, and
the Black Hand there to act as suicide operatives against extreme threats.
add to this the fact that Sabbat vampires run in packs, and all
of a sudden you face not a single vampire, nor even the loose and highly
fragile structure of the Camarilla's coteries, but an insane pack of
Blood Bound murderers, unwilling to let one of their number fall to a
pathetic human, and their frenzies once you actually succeed in killing a
member of the pack. under the assumption that they could contact their
Bishop for assistance and recieve help from Templars, other packs, the
Hand, ghouls, Revenants, fiendish Tzimisce creations, and whatever else
the Sabbat might be hiding in New York, I'd assume that hunters check in,
but they don't check out.
as far as I can tell from what I've seen on the issue, the Sabbat
are deadly game, and quick to turn the tables on hunters who come after
their kind. perhaps vampire hunters shy away from this, stalking the
easier prey of the Camarilla. perhaps those foolish enough to pursue the
Sabbat in cities they utterly control simply are the perishing number of
their lot. whatever the case, it seems likely that hunters simply can't
face the overwhelming odds of dealing with the Sabbat, which, like it or
not, is a highly unified military organization.
and on that happy note...
-josh c.
Wade Lahoda
: slight intended to those of _actual_ ethnic descent described above. I'm
: bitching about that segment of the gaming-pop audience for whom it is
: now "cool" to pretend to hail from these cultures. Leave the roleplaying
: in the games or in the bedrooms of us deviants. Be proud of who you are,
: don't swipe other folks' cultures.
: And not in my books, there weren't ;)
: Regards,
Ahh, Grey Owl surfaces even amongst the ranks of gamers. =)
I think it's a general trend thoughout a lot of pop culture...
European, especially British of French backgrounds, culture is thought of
in a bad light. After all, you have that whole thing about Europeans
being evil-sons-of-bitches-who-came-and-destroyed-cultures-and-are-now
-wrecking-the-earth-because-of-their-capitalist-greed. Which is, in some
ways right. But there is the accompanying thought that if you want to be
an interesting person instead of a puppet, you can't subscribe to those
cultures, or even American of Canadian(HAH, we have a culture?>. People
think if they want to be interesting, they must come from 'interesting'
cultures instead of the same old boring ones as everyone else... =)
___________________ ____________
\_ _ \_ _ \_ | \_ ____/::::::. Raven -- Wade Lahoda
| | | | | | | __/:::: ::::: MageCraft BBS (306) 955-4548
| |___| _ | | | | |:: :::::
| | | | | | | | |:: ::::: ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
|___| |___|___|\_____/|_______|:: :::::hP! http:\\www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca\
-----------------------------:::::-:::::-- ~ab950\Profile.html
Jay Knioum
In article <34956...@oit.umass.edu>,
c...@emily.oit.umass.edu (Adaj) wrote:
> Probably! Of course, if you read in the "Long Night", the new Mind's Eye
> for Dark Ages, you will notice that those on the "Road of the Devil" are
> to be Narrator Characters! It's the old standard "Everyone must play the
> "good" guy on the white horse (Don't mention the atrocities committed in
> the name of all's that good)".
> I don't know if it's this human need to feel that good is going to win
> out in the end or what. But the overriding notion, that no one can play
> evil well or even understand the "evil" mentality well bugs me on a
> personal level.
I think it's done out of a desire to head off needless and unpleasant
disruptions in the game. The cold fact is that many players cannot play
evil "well," but instead use it as an excuse to be "as nasty as they
wanna be."
For the rest, there is always the Golden Rule. If the Storyteller has a
group of players who she feels can handle playing someone truly evil,
then she has every right to allow them to do so. The "Narrator/NPC-only"
designation merely provides the ST with an out when the slavering munchie
hordes start whining that they want to play Baali Abominations with Dark
Thaumaturgy. :D Or, more realistically, it allows the ST to save such
special characters for those players she knows can do it well, as opposed
to complete strangers playing their first game.
I don't know about you, but a LARP where the majority of the characters
are Road of the Devil does not attract me in the slightest, because I
know what I'd find. a few of the players would be genuinely effective,
and the rest would just ooze cheese. This is based on my experience,
however. If your LARP group is above all this, then great! Count your
blessings and invoke that Golden Rule with impunity! ;D
Here's a short transcript from a LARP I played in that illustrates such
roleplaying horrors:
Follower of Set posing as Caitiff: <in hokey, husky voice that player
thought was eerie and seductive> "Have you ever given in to your deepest,
darkest desires?"
Tzimisce: "Fuck off, Setite."
> My Quote of the day: "I hope one day someone writes a game that upends the
> notion of good and evil, and players can play "evil"
> characters that find "good, wholesome" NPCs to be
> evil or at least misguided and challenges us to
> reconsider what "evil" really is."
Why? Why is it necessary that a game company cater completely to the
darker side? You are perfectly able to do with your game what you will,
and I think the WoD provides ample freedom to do so...possibly more than
most games out there. In fact, given the boneheaded notions of the
general public (D&D is Satan Game, etc.), I'm pleasantly surprised that
WW gets away with what they have. But then, I'm a longtime AD&Der, so I
consider even the most goody-two- shoes of WoD games to be a breath of
fresh air regarding adult themes.
IMO, if such a game was created, it would played by a handful of good
roleplayers, and a legion of gore-children. In other words, it would
probably sell very well, but the high-minded purpose of challenging us to
re-think good and evil would not be accomplished on the large scale. The
game, ultimately, would be little more than an amusing novelty, sort of
like Marilyn Manson. I like the band, actually, but it hasn't changed
me.
That said, I leave you with my quote of the day:
"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong..."
Jay Knioum
In article <676is1$1ic...@news.mindspring.com>,
bruce...@mindspring.com (Bruce Baugh) wrote:
> A friend was thinking about visiting his local Cam group with bright
> slacks and paisley shirts. And indeed it seems to me that at least
> _some_ creatures doomed never to see the sun will go in for a Venetian
> or Sun Court style. "So we're creatures of the night. We shall make a
> new day for ourselves."
I would love to see that. ;)
One thing I've always wondered, assuming that vampires retain a constant
appearance (cut hair regrows instantly, etc.): Did somebody go out of
their way to stake and burn all the vamps Embraced during the '70s?
Seems to me there should be a lot of leeches running around with afros
and sideburns....
But then, perhaps I'm biased...
Clemens Schmitz
Jay Knioum wrote:
> One thing I've always wondered, assuming that vampires retain a constant
> appearance (cut hair regrows instantly, etc.): Did somebody go out of
> their way to stake and burn all the vamps Embraced during the '70s?
Probably the Toreador Taste Police :)
Clemens
BTW cut hair regrows during the the day's rest
--
SAULOT: So the older one - Cain, I think - killed Abel, the younger one,
and was cursed by God for the very first murder.
HASSAM:Innovative man, this Cain.
-from the REAL words of the Clan Founders
Brian Thomas Habing
Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I dunno about White Wolf but /I/ hate the Sabbat ;-)
>Heh. Conditionally agreed. I like the idea of the Sabbat but loathe
>its execution.
>> The main reason is nothing to do with the actual books but purely
>> because since they came out people have been very quick to identify
>> the Camarilla as 'good' vampires and the Sabbat as 'bad' vampires.
>Sadly, the way they've written them, the Sabbat *are* the 'bad'
>vampires. As written, they've stopped fighting the Beast and spend
>all their time deliberately frenzying, giving in to the Beast's urges
>in a 'controlled' manner, throwing any vestiges of human morality to
>the four winds, and mass-mutilating and mass-murdering people just
>because "we're vampires and we'll behave anyway we want because
>we can."
It's not that they go around frenzying all the time that makes Sabbat
bad (and as far as I run them, they don't go around frenzying all the
time), it's that they act exactly as if they were a rung higher on the
food chain than humans... With most of the players, anyway, being
human, this kind of makes them the bad guys :-)
This is not to say that all of the Sabbat have to be "evil" as
opposed to just being "non-human". However the Sabbat that go around
making walls of orphans as distractions (using fleshcraft) would seem
to be evil for the same reason that people who torture animals are
evil.
>The situation is so bad that, from the Werewolf perspective, the
>entire sect is 'allied with the Wyrm' ... and that is the Black
>Spiral Dancer opinion (Book of the Wyrm)!
Depending on which wherewolf you talk to, _all_ vampires are
allied with the Wyrm.
>Bloodthirsty packs fit low-Humanity anarchs well. I dislike the
>Sabbat partially because they make the anarchs absolutely redundant.
>Both groups have insular loyalty, hatred of the Cam, contempt for the
>Masquerade, and frequent deliberate abuse of humans 'for fun'. The
>only major differences are that the Sabbat has two major Clans with
>wacky-twink Disciplines in it, the Sabbat controls more real estate
>in an organized manner, and the Sabbat uses assorted Ritae and
>anti-Ante ideology to keep the proles in line.
I didn't realize the Anarchs wontonly broke the masquerade... (a
reference on this would be great)
>> Also there are some really bad continuity problems I have with the
>> way the Sabbat is presented, enough that I can't suspend disbelief.
>> They'd either have taken over the vampiric world or (more likely)
>> been comprehensively wiped out.
>Completely agreed. This is my largest problem, of which the issue of
>'redundant anarchs' is but a small facet.
Why would they necesarily have either taken over the vampiric world
or been wiped out. At the base of both groups are some really old
powerful things that don't exactly go toe to toe on a weekly basis
in person...
>If the Sabbat has
>been operating as a well-oiled Masquerade-rending combat machine for
>centuries, then the Camarilla should have either united to crush it
>or been systematically destroyed by it, and the anarchs should have
>fallen without even minor resistance. Either way, the Camarilla
>should *not* be a disunited group of standoffish individuals doing
>little to nothing to coherently defend themselves against an
>ever-surging horde.
Even the Sabbat doesn't wontonly break the masquerade completely open,
the Cardinals and such aren't _that_ stupid... and the Camarilla seems
to unite quite well when it is to there long term political advantage
to do so
>Since *no* Camarilla-operation books have come out subsequent to
>the Sabbat books, there is nothing to fill in the gaps as far as what
>the Camarilla is doing to be the more successful and larger sect.
>Instead, in book after book you have assertions that the Camarilla is
>incompetent, self-divided, incapable of concerted action, and
>absolutely riddled with internal dissent while the Sabbat is focused,
>loyal, super-combat-siege-savvy, aggressive, and calculatingly
>expansionistic. And yet somehow the Camarilla holds its own decade
>after decade. It makes *no* sense, as written.
They are currently divided because they can be. They can be because
they do have the numbers and power over the Sabbat. I am rather
certain that if the Sabbat were to take over a major European city
that is currently Camarilla controlled that we would see quite a bit
more unity until the Sabbat were nocked down a peg again.
----Brian Habing
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu
John P. Raynor
Stunt Borg (p...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: Finally, if the Sabbat operates *anything* like what the books say it
: does in siege, then the Camarilla should either have been destroyed
: long ago or not operate *anything* like how it is portrayed, and the
: Masquerade should have been broken centuries ago. If the Sabbat has
: been operating as a well-oiled Masquerade-rending combat machine for
: centuries, then the Camarilla should have either united to crush it
: or been systematically destroyed by it, and the anarchs should have
: fallen without even minor resistance. Either way, the Camarilla
: should *not* be a disunited group of standoffish individuals doing
: little to nothing to coherently defend themselves against an
: ever-surging horde.
Or the mortal world would become *far* more willing to believe in the
vampiric peril, and set up institutions to cope with "periodic outbreaks."
There's nothing like a horde of well-prepared Inquisitors (I use the term
in a very generic sense) to ruin your plans for siege and conquest. If
the Sabbat really behaved as they are depicted behaving, Inquisitorial
institutions would undoubtedly be far stronger than they are in the
canonical World-o'-Darkness, and would enjoy the full confidence of the
highest levels of government -- instead of tip-toeing around local law
enforcement, Inquisitors would be free to "kill 'em all and let God sort
'em out" (and fabricate stories to cover everything up later)...
- J. Raynor
Marc17
LenaFalk wrote:
>
> >Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any 'interesting'
> >Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect I could find a way
> >to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher, power-crazed monomaniac
> >etc etc.
The same thing could be said about any Camarilla character being
placed into the Sabbat. Camarilla characters are boringly human and
could be placed into the Sabbat without any trouble.
>Sure your stereotypical bloodthirsty pack couldn't, nor your
> >vicious tzimisce vivsectionist but I don't think I'd want to play or ST
> >for anyonen who was doing that anyway. Also there are some really bad
> >continuity problems I have with the way the Sabbat is presented, enough
> >that I can't suspend disbelief. They'd either have taken over the
> >vampiric world or (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
>
> I have to agree, along with the fact that I think
> a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
> its members, and is generally based on splatter/
> violence, cannot endure for long.
The Sabbat is based on freedom, but it is the freedom of several
hundred years ago, not today. When the Sabbat was formed, all vampires
paid direct allegience to their sire to whom they were blood bound to.
They were expected to follow any order no matter how suicidal without
question and often couldn't question if they wanted to. This is what
the anarch movement wanted was freedom from thier sires. Now the blood
bond is to peers and it is a mutual thing (in most cases). It may not
seem very free to us after several hundred years of social evolution
but the likes of it was undreamed of during the inquistion.
>
> What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
> up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
> after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
Lets face it. Hunters who go after Sabbat either get killed or get
very good really quick. The Camarilla simply avoids the hunters and
the Sabbat simply kills the hunters. So the hunters figure out that
vampires exist in that city and have killed one of their own. If the
Inquisition hasn't figured out by now that every major city has
vampires indesting it, then they really aren't intellegent enough to
worry about. They could send more hunters, but they would just die too
and in a war of attrition, the vampires would win against hunters.
>
> I guess that the Sabbat would find it increasingly difficult
> to exist without a Masquerade when Vampire Hunters
> who go for the really obvious types are on their heels.
To drag other games into this, the Technocracy would provide whatever
Masquerade was needed form them. Then again the Technocracy does have
the knowledge, power and resources to activly fight the Sabbat who
would be prime targets.
Marc17
LenaFalk wrote:
>
> I have to agree, along with the fact that I think
> a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
> its members, and is generally based on splatter/
> violence, cannot endure for long.
I will agree that splatter/violence based chronicles do not endure
long much like hack and slash AD&D games don't endure long. However, I
must say, that the most grevious attrocities I've witnessed have been
done by Camarilla vampires in Camarilla chronicles. Typically, people
playing Sabbat vampires don't bother because they are allowed to do
it, they just get on with the game. Such things typically stop being
fun when you're allowed to do them.
>
> What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
> up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
> after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
>
Although I've never been to New York City, I've had several friends
and roommates who lived and grew up there and have come up with some
observations. Basically, NYC is simply to big to be controlled. You
can look out over Time Square at lunch time and see more people than
are in some European countries. There are too many ethnic groups, too
many neighborhoods, too many damn people for anybody to keep track and
control them all. The city it's self is divided in its government and
the mortals can't even control it. Proclaiming yourself the Prince of
NYC is like proclaiming yourself Prince of the Pacific Ocean. totally
unenforcable and almost unimaginable. Another vampire could live in
the coty for a hundred years and never meet or hear of any other so
called prince. I started to work on a New York by Night, it had no
less than three Camarilla princes, a Sabbat Cardinal, lots of
Archbishops, and more anarchs, gangs, and independants for the lot of
them to contol. And despite thier numbers, they are still
insignificant to the number of mortals in NYC. You could live your
entire life, and most would, in the WOD in a city like NY or Mexico
City and never encounter a vampire and never beaffected by one.
David Johnston
LenaFalk wrote:
>
> >Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any 'interesting'
> >Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect I could find a way
> >to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher, power-crazed monomaniac
> >vicious tzimisce vivsectionist but I don't think I'd want to play or ST
> >for anyonen who was doing that anyway. Also there are some really bad
> >continuity problems I have with the way the Sabbat is presented, enough
> >that I can't suspend disbelief. They'd either have taken over the
> >vampiric world or (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
>
> a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
> its members, and is generally based on splatter/
> violence, cannot endure for long.
Not really. A pretense of freedom is far easier to
deal with than the reality.
>
> What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
> up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
> after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
Because Sabbat campaigns are about being victimisers, not
victims.
>
> I guess that the Sabbat would find it increasingly difficult
> to exist without a Masquerade when Vampire Hunters
> who go for the really obvious types are on their heels.
De facto, the Sabbat does have a Masquerade. What they don't have
are the Camarilla birth and diablerie restrictions, instead dealing with
population excess by killing off the surplus.
Jo Hart
Brian Thomas Habing wrote:
>
>
> It's not that they go around frenzying all the time that makes Sabbat
> bad (and as far as I run them, they don't go around frenzying all the
> time), it's that they act exactly as if they were a rung higher on the
> food chain than humans...
So do a lot of Camarilla, they are equally bad. This is largely my point
as having a poorly defined, stereotyped and inconsistent 'Sabbat' out
there makes people forget that all the nastiness and evil you might ever
want was already there. I don't like 'fluffy vampires' much ;-) But the
Cam aren't.
jo
Jo Hart
Marc17 wrote:
>
> The same thing could be said about any Camarilla character being
> placed into the Sabbat. Camarilla characters are boringly human and
> could be placed into the Sabbat without any trouble.
>
Nope, you fell for my trick adjective. There's nothing boring about
humanity.
What I basically mean is that if I want to play a game based around
manipulating the mortal world, politics etc etc then that won't work as
a Sabbat game. On the other hand if what I want is ultra-violence,
politics etc etc then that could work perfectly as well as a Camarilla/
Anarch game. One is inclusive, the other isn't.
jo
Jo Hart
Justin R. Achilli wrote:
> And those Scots are up to no good, so be careful
> what you say :)
Its OK, I'm distantly related. (Allegedly)
> >
> > (Gearing up to see Spiceworld on Dec 26th!)
>
> Argh! I noted that you have a hotmail account, Jo. Are you over in the
> UK? Us Americans ain't get Spiceworld until January, I think.
I do have a non-hotmail account, for those rare occasions when my modem
is working ;-) And yes, UK. Its pretty rare for any film to open here
before the States, I was quite surprised. We enjoyed the new Bond film
too.
Ciao,
jo
LenaFalk
>And then, somehow, the Sabbat is *also* supposed to be the sect with
>coordinated operations from its Beast-riden members, a practice of
>embracing dozens of childer in the expectation that many to most will
>die, a siege tactic of creating cannon fodder War Party childer to
>soften up opposition, and a policy of strongly Vinculuming *everyone*
>together such that their free will to explore vampirism is always
>subservient to their love/loyalty to those around and above them.
This paragraph somehow reminded me of the Sabbat portrayed
in Giovanni Chronicles 2 - Blood & Fire.
In there, you have your contemplative philosophs and all search
for *control*. Okay, they've left Humanity behind because they
no longer felt human, but they want to replace it with something
better.
And there, the Fox-hunt on a mortal for example gets a sort of
innocent and everyday connotation that I like, but not a *I kill
because I'm a bad, bad vampire and supposed to do this kind of
stuff* meaning.
It's a different moral, but still a moral, not the anti-moral of the
Sabbat that's in the Sabbat books.
LenaFalk
Marc17 <mar...@painandgreed.com> wrote:
I wrote:
>> I have to agree, along with the fact that I think
>> a sect that cries for freedom and then again binds
>> its members, and is generally based on splatter/
>> violence, cannot endure for long.
>
>long much like hack and slash AD&D games don't endure long. However, I
>must say, that the most grevious attrocities I've witnessed have been
>done by Camarilla vampires in Camarilla chronicles. Typically, people
>playing Sabbat vampires don't bother because they are allowed to do
>it, they just get on with the game. Such things typically stop being
>fun when you're allowed to do them.
I don't have anything against violence done by the characters,
be they Camarilla or Sabbat. I have something against violence
for proving just how evil you are that I read into the Sabbat Storyteller's.
>> What about cities like NY, where no Cammies clean
>> up the mess? Why is it that Hunters only seem to go
>> after the Camarilla gueys who *keep* the Masquerade?
>
>Although I've never been to New York City, I've had several friends
>and roommates who lived and grew up there and have come up with some
>observations. Basically, NYC is simply to big to be controlled. You
>can look out over Time Square at lunch time and see more people than
>are in some European countries. There are too many ethnic groups, too
>many neighborhoods, too many damn people for anybody to keep track and
>control them all. The city it's self is divided in its government and
>the mortals can't even control it. Proclaiming yourself the Prince of
>NYC is like proclaiming yourself Prince of the Pacific Ocean. totally
>unenforcable and almost unimaginable. Another vampire could live in
>the coty for a hundred years and never meet or hear of any other so
>called prince. I started to work on a New York by Night, it had no
>less than three Camarilla princes, a Sabbat Cardinal, lots of
>Archbishops, and more anarchs, gangs, and independants for the lot of
>them to contol. And despite thier numbers, they are still
>insignificant to the number of mortals in NYC. You could live your
>entire life, and most would, in the WOD in a city like NY or Mexico
>City and never encounter a vampire and never beaffected by one.
<shrug> Not if the Sabbat celebrate their little games
right on Times Square.
LenaFalk
>> Argh! I noted that you have a hotmail account, Jo. Are you over in the
>> UK? Us Americans ain't get Spiceworld until January, I think.
>
>
>I do have a non-hotmail account, for those rare occasions when my modem
>is working ;-) And yes, UK. Its pretty rare for any film to open here
>before the States, I was quite surprised. We enjoyed the new Bond film
>too.
Gonna watch that tomorrow. And love it, I'm pretty sure.
Lena
Bond Fan
Zarquon
Re: Re: Does Justin Hate Everything?
> >- Nauseating, if well-reasoned, discussion over how the World of
> >Darkness fits into the Mage "paradigm" (If a situation in life ever
> >arises in which the word "paradigm" is keenly suited, switch vocations!)
Hmm... how about all those management courses mentioned in Dilbert.. I recall
something like "let's dominate the industry.. by implementing our
methidonigal paridigm"... (please excuse spelling and misquote.. actual comic
is elsewhere.)
Zarquon
Sysop of Imperial Realms
James Desborough
> One thing I've always wondered, assuming that vampires retain a constant
> appearance (cut hair regrows instantly, etc.): Did somebody go out of
> their way to stake and burn all the vamps Embraced during the '70s?
> and sideburns....
>
> But then, perhaps I'm biased...
>
> Jay Knioum
> The Mad Afro
I have a LARPer in my group who would LOVE to play a Toreador Superfly.
Unfortunately he is white, red haired and paunchy...
But groovy with it!
K Kuhn
In article <678vpi$igv$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, hab...@neyman.stat.uiuc.edu
(Brian Thomas Habing) wrote:
<snip>
> It's not that they go around frenzying all the time that makes Sabbat
> bad (and as far as I run them, they don't go around frenzying all the
> time), it's that they act exactly as if they were a rung higher on the
> food chain than humans... With most of the players, anyway, being
> human, this kind of makes them the bad guys :-)
>
Given the Humanity's of most of the Camarilla elders, what difference is
there between the way a Camarilla acts and a Sabbat acts, except that the
Sabbat gets a lot more nice goodies as far as not having to worry about
losing Humanity, encouraged diablerism, and any discipline you want to
learn without becoming blood bound to some scheming Tremere or something?
As it is, either you have ruthless Sabbat, who in that case act pretty
much like any Camarilla power group, and there's no real reason to add
them to a Camarilla/anarch political mix, or else they're written to spend
their time torturing humans and having lots of psychopathic sexual hangups
to make them "more evil" to differentiate them from the Camarilla elder
types.
<snip>
> >Completely agreed. This is my largest problem, of which the issue of
> >'redundant anarchs' is but a small facet.
>
> Why would they necesarily have either taken over the vampiric world
> or been wiped out. At the base of both groups are some really old
> powerful things that don't exactly go toe to toe on a weekly basis
> in person...
>
Look at what kind of advancement rate in the disciplines Sabbat vampires
are supposed to have even in cities like Montreal where they aren't going
up against Cammies or werewolves on a monthly basis. Sabbat vampires also
Embrace a lot more willingly than the Camarilla, so should have the
numbers, add a few vozhd, etc., and they aren't portrayed as finding it
that difficult to infiltrate a city and start looking up havens. Use the
Assamites, for that matter.
<snip>
>
> Even the Sabbat doesn't wontonly break the masquerade completely open,
> the Cardinals and such aren't _that_ stupid... and the Camarilla seems
> to unite quite well when it is to there long term political advantage
> to do so
>
And the Cardinals aren't supposed to be able to tell the packs what to do,
since that's acting like an elder, and the Sabbat is supposed to be all
about freedom, (as long as what you want to do is what the Sabbat wants
you to do, and you do the Vaulderie regularly with your packmates, etc.
etc.). I think what upsets me most about the Sabbat as presented is that
I can't see how to play a vampire that believes in the Sabbat's goals and
isn't as dumb as the proverbial vegetable at the same time.
<snip>
>
> They are currently divided because they can be. They can be because
> they do have the numbers and power over the Sabbat. I am rather
> certain that if the Sabbat were to take over a major European city
> that is currently Camarilla controlled that we would see quite a bit
> more unity until the Sabbat were nocked down a peg again.
>
So why isn't most of the US taken, then? From the population suggestions,
most mid-sized cities should only have 5-6 vampires at most, with possibly
an 8th level prince. A nomadic pack or two should be able to take that
many vampires out easily, and a lot of American cities are far enough away
from each other that support couldn't come in from other cities in time to
save the prince. And oddly enough, it's the Sabbat that has normally been
shown to have non-aggression treaties with the werewolves while the
Camarilla is fighting them, so even that shouldn't be a problem.
Moiner
> > > - If you're playing Wraith, your game probably doesn't suck. But don't
> > > get too cocky, kiddo.
> >
> > Wrong. Any game can suck. Yeah, I have a 10 Pathos and every single Wraith
> > power in existance.
> >
> Err, any wraith can have 10 Pathos...it's like Blood pool, only 10 is
> the absolute standard for /all/ wraiths who aren't named The Smiling
> Lord, Gorool or Charon.
>
> Do not call up in rules points that which ye cannot quote accurately,
> or I shall be forced to put ye down :-)
and if you use archaic pronouns without getting the subject/object
distinction down cold, your game probably sucks... ;-)
--
If you must send spam,
here are the email addresses of the current board of
the Federal Communications Commission:
Chairman Reed Hundt: rhu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Susan Ness: sn...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Rachelle Chong: rch...@fcc.gov
Stunt Borg
On 17 Dec 1997, Brian Thomas Habing wrote:
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> writes:
> >The situation is so bad that, from the Werewolf perspective, the
> >entire sect is 'allied with the Wyrm' ... and that is the Black
> >Spiral Dancer opinion (Book of the Wyrm)!
>
> Depending on which wherewolf you talk to, _all_ vampires are
> allied with the Wyrm.
But the Black Spirals, who are aware of both sects and fully
cognizant of their standard operating procedure, identify only the
Sabbat vampires as 'a servant of the Wyrm, even if they don't
acknowledge it'.
> I didn't realize the Anarchs wontonly broke the masquerade... (a
> reference on this would be great)
In the V:tM intro story alone, you have an anarch Brujah wontonly
Embracing on whim and not conveying the need of the Masquerade, such
that one embracee runs to her brother, a police detective, who is now
fully in the know about the existence of vampires. This same anarch
drags a bunch of mortal revelers into the prince's party, breaking
the Masquerade. Moreover, the anarch doesn't care how the situation
is dealt with (equally unconcerned if the mortals are killed or
merely Dominated into forgetting). That's the *intro* story alone.
The anarchs might not pull grotesque, over-the-top acts with the
frequency of the Sabbat, but they don't respect the Masquerade much.
Unless breaking it would result in an immediate threat (Camarilla
Blood Hunt or mortal hunter), they don't bother much in carefully
observing it from the evidence I've seen.
> >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Also there are some really bad continuity problems I have with
> >> the way the Sabbat is presented, enough that I can't suspend
> >> disbelief. They'd either have taken over the vampiric world or
> >> (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
>
> >Completely agreed. This is my largest problem, of which the issue
> >of 'redundant anarchs' is but a small facet.
>
> Why would they necesarily have either taken over the vampiric world
> or been wiped out. At the base of both groups are some really old
> powerful things that don't exactly go toe to toe on a weekly basis
> in person...
Because the Sabbat siege strategy, as written, if followed as written,
and not countered by some as-yet-unwritten Camarilla counter-strategy,
or some as-yet-unwritten unified Camarilla political structure, simply
cannot be beaten on the Camarilla's terms.
The Sabbat embraces a *scad* of people and lets them loose without
explaining Fact One of vampirism. The Camarilla now has half a dozen
walking Masquearde breaches to deal with, letting the Sabbat map out
the city political structure. Coordinated moves are made against weak,
unpopular parties, creating power vacuums without raising suspicion
(all the Camarilla parties suspect each other). As holes open in the
Cammie power structure, War Parties are embraced, grotesquely swelling
the ranks of the invading Sabbat prior to assault. Then, through sheer
force of numbers, the Sabbat overrun the city in a wave that can only
be stopped with equally savage counter-fighting, a war that is almost
*guaranteed* to break the Masquerade.
That is the *logical* outcome of the Sabbat siege policy, and it's
using nothing but cannon-fodder Gen 10+ vampires. The Cammie prince
and primogen may survive and hide or survive and retreat, but they
lose the city regardless. Repeat ad nauseum and the Camarilla
shouldn't control anything anymore, and should have by far the
smaller total population.
*Given* that logical outcome, the Sabbat should either have won long
since, or been wiped out by a rock-solid-and-scared-spitless
Camarilla with a take-no-prisoners mindset. *Instead*, the average
Cammie city is portrayed as disunited and wracked with internal
dissent, wherein most of the populace *isn't* combat savvy and
*couldn't* do much to help fight a Sabbat pack. Half the populace is
plotting against the other half, and no one is sharing the
information that would need to be shared to nip a Sabbat incursion in
the bud.
Why isn't the Sabbat, as written, mowing through these cities? It is
completely logically insupportable.
> >If the Sabbat has
> >been operating as a well-oiled Masquerade-rending combat machine for
> >centuries, then the Camarilla should have either united to crush it
> >or been systematically destroyed by it, and the anarchs should have
> >fallen without even minor resistance. Either way, the Camarilla
> >should *not* be a disunited group of standoffish individuals doing
> >little to nothing to coherently defend themselves against an
> >ever-surging horde.
>
> Even the Sabbat doesn't wontonly break the masquerade completely
> open, the Cardinals and such aren't _that_ stupid...
If the quantity of hunters is even miniscule, almost any given one
of the Sabbat's little 'games' should have broken the Masquerade wide
open by now. The Camarilla cannot enforce the Masquerade in Sabbat
cities, and since Mexico city is apparently *crawling* with 300+
vampires, I see no earthly way for the local Cardinals to prevent any
given pack from irretrievably giving proof to the existence of
vampires that no one can deny. Flip through Montreal by Night for
more examples than I could possibly come up with on my own.
> and the
> Camarilla seems to unite quite well when it is to there long term
> political advantage to do so
The Sabbat strikes *before* there is a long-term political advantage.
Their siege strategy is *based* on striking first at where the
Camarilla vampires won't find a disappearance particularly out of the
ordinary, since lots of Cammie vampires wanted to do the target in,
anyway. The first full assault takes place only when the Sabbat
vampires believe themselves to have numerical superiority over a
divided and weakened foe.
By the time the Camarilla 'unites quite well', the city should be
Sabbat-controlled with almost twice the previous vampiric population,
and this population should be composed heavily of combat-focused
vampires entrenching their positions.
> They are currently divided because they can be. They can be because
> they do have the numbers and power over the Sabbat.
But WHY do they? As written, they're so utterly incompetent and
divided that the stereotypical Cammie city has no hope of surviving
even a tepid Sabbat assault, an assault that will remove a dozen
Cammie vampires and replace them with two dozen Sabbat vampires.
Repeat ad nauseum. WHY hasn't this happened? Nothing whatsoever in
any of the Cammie books gives a hint that there is the needed level
of central, unified control across the sect to repel city-by-city
gains by the Sabbat (even the Justicars supposedly plot and
undermine each other, according to some rumors). *None* of the
Camarilla cities portrayed is at *all* prepared if a siege were to
hit, nor apparently have they been for decades, and yet the Sabbat
somehow never gets around to laying an almost guaranteed successful
siege. It is logically contradictory.
> I am rather
> certain that if the Sabbat were to take over a major European city
> that is currently Camarilla controlled that we would see quite a bit
> more unity until the Sabbat were nocked down a peg again.
Then why isn't that unity anywhere in the books? Because the Sabbat
haven't 'just' decided to do sieges like this. This is longstanding
operating procedure in use for decades at the minimum.
The Tzimisce Clanbook makes reference to 'the Siege of Barcelona',
giving the distinct impression (to me) that it succeeded. Why on
earth they aren't attacking (and taking over easily) any of a dozen
cities is a complete mystery given the way they are portrayed as
operating. Either the Camarilla is *much* less divided and
disorganized and incompetent than portrayed, or the Sabbat is *much*
less kept in synchrony through Vincula and much less willing to
create cannon-fodder for sieges and much less well-oiled a military
machine than portrayed.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
thinks a little of both needs to be reflected in the books
Impaler Lord
Carrie A Schutrick (ca...@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
WOD rule 1 - If it's wearing a Trench coat kill it. Your character lives longer
that way.
: >- If your character has "mirrored sunglasses", "a full-length duster
: >(black, denim or otherwise)", or "twin (anything, but most often
: >shotguns, katanas or ludicrously expensive pistols)", your character
: >sucks.
:
: The only one of those I can argue with is the duster, which I think
: is equivalent to a trenchcoat or full-length raincoat. They're practical
: items of clothing, y'know, and handy for concealing things.
:
--
*------------------------------- Impaler Lord -------------------------------*
I sit and wait, in a state of grace. I am the Black Angel of Death, God
has given me this title. I load my gun, kissing each shell. My gun talks
to me, tells me things; I listen carefully, for my gun is wise. The time
of purification has come.
*------------------ http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~rajic --------------------*
Ascendant
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:21:23 -0600, j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
>I dunno about White Wolf but /I/ hate the Sabbat ;-)
>
>The main reason is nothing to do with the actual books but purely because
>since they came out people have been very quick to identify the Camarilla
>as 'good' vampires and the Sabbat as 'bad' vampires.
>
>Camarilla vampires can be every bit as nasty as Sabbat, in many cases
>worse in a dramatic sense because they still have a vestige of humanity.
>They know what they are doing.
>
>Sabbat vampires? *shrug* They're boringly inhuman. For any 'interesting'
>Sabbat character someone could come up with, I suspect I could find a way
>to fit it in as a Cam, be it ruthless researcher, power-crazed monomaniac
>etc etc. Sure your stereotypical bloodthirsty pack couldn't, nor your
>vicious tzimisce vivsectionist but I don't think I'd want to play or ST
>for anyonen who was doing that anyway. Also there are some really bad
>continuity problems I have with the way the Sabbat is presented, enough
>that I can't suspend disbelief. They'd either have taken over the
>vampiric world or (more likely) been comprehensively wiped out.
>
Well, according to the DSotBH, the True Blackhand has been using the
Sabbat to counterbalance the Camarilla, and have been subtlely stoping
the Sabbat from smashing the Camarilla. The True Hand members in the
Camarilla have likewise prevented the Camarilla from stomping the
Sabbat when they get the chance.
>Its the humanity that makes vampires interesting to me, as PCs or as an
>ST, the fact that they are torn between two states of being. I can find
>all the really interesting shades of grey and appealing themes in a
>straight Camarilla game. Sabbat are.. irrelevant. They will be
>assimilated ;)
I agree, but I think the Sabbat adds a whole new wrinkle to the game,
and allows players that prefer lots of fighing and gore (like my
girlfriend) to play the sort of game they enjoy.
-Niccolo Giovanni
David Johnston
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>
> >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 j_h...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> I dunno about White Wolf but /I/ hate the Sabbat ;-)
>
> >its execution.
>
> >> because since they came out people have been very quick to identify
> >> the Camarilla as 'good' vampires and the Sabbat as 'bad' vampires.
>
> >vampires. As written, they've stopped fighting the Beast and spend
> >all their time deliberately frenzying, giving in to the Beast's urges
> >in a 'controlled' manner, throwing any vestiges of human morality to
> >the four winds, and mass-mutilating and mass-murdering people just
> >because "we're vampires and we'll behave anyway we want because
> >we can."
That seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Camarilla/Sabbat
split in the first place was over the choice between
hiding from the humans (and abandonment of those vampires
unable to do so), and open warfare on the humans in order
to rule by terror. What's the problem?
> >The situation is so bad that, from the Werewolf perspective, the
> >entire sect is 'allied with the Wyrm' ... and that is the Black
> >Spiral Dancer opinion (Book of the Wyrm)!
> >Bloodthirsty packs fit low-Humanity anarchs well. I dislike the
> >Sabbat partially because they make the anarchs absolutely redundant.
> >Both groups have insular loyalty, hatred of the Cam, contempt for the
> >Masquerade, and frequent deliberate abuse of humans 'for fun'. The
> >only major differences are that the Sabbat has two major Clans with
> >wacky-twink Disciplines in it, the Sabbat controls more real estate
> >in an organized manner, and the Sabbat uses assorted Ritae and
> >anti-Ante ideology to keep the proles in line.
Really? I just see the anarchs as being any vampire who doesn't
recognise the authority of Princes.
> >> Also there are some really bad continuity problems I have with the
> >> way the Sabbat is presented, enough that I can't suspend disbelief.
> >> They'd either have taken over the vampiric world or (more likely)
> >> been comprehensively wiped out.
>
> >Completely agreed. This is my largest problem, of which the issue of
> >'redundant anarchs' is but a small facet.
> >If the Sabbat has
> >been operating as a well-oiled Masquerade-rending combat machine for
> >centuries, then the Camarilla should have either united to crush it
> >or been systematically destroyed by it, and the anarchs should have
> >fallen without even minor resistance. Either way, the Camarilla
> >should *not* be a disunited group of standoffish individuals doing
> >little to nothing to coherently defend themselves against an
> >ever-surging horde.
> >Since *no* Camarilla-operation books have come out subsequent to
> >the Sabbat books, there is nothing to fill in the gaps as far as what
> >the Camarilla is doing to be the more successful and larger sect.
> >Instead, in book after book you have assertions that the Camarilla is
> >incompetent, self-divided, incapable of concerted action, and
> >absolutely riddled with internal dissent while the Sabbat is focused,
> >loyal, super-combat-siege-savvy, aggressive, and calculatingly
> >expansionistic. And yet somehow the Camarilla holds its own decade
> >after decade. It makes *no* sense, as written.
The Sabbat do have one notable handicap in that they have almost no
true elders. Diablerie aside, you need time and experience points
to attain true power.
j_h...@hotmail.com
In article <6781qc$3dh$1...@missing.its.to>,
ab...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (Wade Lahoda) wrote:
>
> After all, you have that whole thing about Europeans
> being evil-sons-of-bitches-who-came-and-destroyed-cultures-and-are-now
> -wrecking-the-earth-because-of-their-capitalist-greed.
*cough* Talking about wrecking the earth because of capitalist greed, it
wasn't any of the European governments who were bent on trying to wreck
the hothouse gas talks in Kyoto, nor any of the European governments who
were arguing against a worldwide ban on land mines.
I wonder if the US realises (or cares) about how tarnished its reputation
is looking these days to anyone who cares about the environment...
jo
Clemens Schmitz
Well, that's probably what he meant by 'switch vocations'
Who in his right frame of mind would want be an engineer?
Clemens
Marc17
Jo Hart wrote:
>
> Marc17 wrote:
> >
> > The same thing could be said about any Camarilla character being
> > placed into the Sabbat. Camarilla characters are boringly human and
> > could be placed into the Sabbat without any trouble.
> >
>
> Nope, you fell for my trick adjective. There's nothing boring about
> humanity.
I am human, I certainly don't want to play a role playing game to do
something I already do in real life, it's boring. I have to deal with
my gameing friends telling me about their characters makeup, and the
outfit they're wereing, and how they're going to some gothic club and
having a romantic interlude in a graveyard. All great and good
roleplaying, but that's all the game consists of. Being of a
industrial/gothic vien myself, me and my other friends do that in real
life every weekend and my friends usually have better outfits than the
ones my gameing friends give their characters.
>
> What I basically mean is that if I want to play a game based around
> manipulating the mortal world, politics etc etc then that won't work as
> a Sabbat game. On the other hand if what I want is ultra-violence,
> politics etc etc then that could work perfectly as well as a Camarilla/
> Anarch game. One is inclusive, the other isn't.
I lack to see your point. Manipulation of mortals and politics works
fine in a Sabbat game. the battle ground with the antedeluvians takes
place on many fields. I'm sure they're are plenty of Lasombra who do
just that. As far as vampire politics, the Sabbat are far more
interesting than the Camarilla. The Camarilla is all based around
clans and blind loyalties (except for theoretically anarchs, but I've
yet to see anyone play an intellectual anarch). The Sabbat politics
are all based upon idealogies, Traditional, Moderate, Loyalist, and
spans all the clans of the Sabbat. The Sabbat was founded upon
idealology, it's conflicts and struggles are over idealology, the
members are fighting for something they have chosen to believe in
rather than the simple fate of vampiric birth. Sure, when all is said
and done it often comes down to a physical battle, but doesn't it
always? No prince has ever been talked out of princedom. Even Lodin
won his princedom in personal combat.
>
> jo
Marc17
K Kuhn wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> And the Cardinals aren't supposed to be able to tell the packs what to do,
> since that's acting like an elder, and the Sabbat is supposed to be all
> about freedom, (as long as what you want to do is what the Sabbat wants
> you to do, and you do the Vaulderie regularly with your packmates, etc.
> etc.). I think what upsets me most about the Sabbat as presented is that
> I can't see how to play a vampire that believes in the Sabbat's goals and
> isn't as dumb as the proverbial vegetable at the same time.
>
Why do you think that the Sabbat has civil wars? They've been about
defineing what exactly does it mean to have freedom. Right now the
Sabbat are just a few decades out of a civil war over such an issue
and the conservatives won. Things are bound to be pretty stable still
although you can see the ugly head of discontent rearing up again in
the for of the Loyalists. As for Cardinals, there are several
cardinals, and lots of archbishops. To be loyal a pack just has to
find one whose allegeinces run along the same lines and claim loyalty
to that particular archbishop or cardinal. the others can't try and
enforce thier will on the pack without makeing them seem like elders
they are trying to fight so long as the pack is under the aegis of
another. I imagine Sabbat politics are alot more based upon persuation
to most newcomers and disipline and oreders are given more to the
loyal rank and file.
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Marc17 wrote:
> Why do you think that the Sabbat has civil wars? They've been about
> defineing what exactly does it mean to have freedom. Right now the
> Sabbat are just a few decades out of a civil war over such an issue
> and the conservatives won.
...Which is the only reason the Sabbat (as defined) still exist, as I
see things. The neo-factions' arguments differ in particulars, but
all center around the same ideological rub: as long as we slide
into a hierarchy and accept leadership from 'elders' and 'betters,'
we are no better than the Camarilla. (The conservatives, of course,
don't care for this school of thought, because they, for the most
part, give the orders.)
This, rather than the semi-mythical Shadow Crusade, Inquisition, or
half-a-dozen other supernatural folderol, is the true conundrum
facing the Sabbat: despite their ranting and raving about freedoms
and truth to one's nature, they are on the verge of becoming what
they most despise.
> I imagine Sabbat politics are alot more based upon persuation
> to most newcomers and disipline and oreders are given more to the
> loyal rank and file.
Clearly the Vaulderie accounts for a great deal here as well. Any pack
which survives more than a few months, with semi-regular sharing of the
Blood (doesn't the book say somewhere that in wartime this occurs _once
per night_?!?), will ultimately have Vinculum ratings of 8 or higher
between all members. Such bands of brethren are tighter than soldiers,
closer than lovers, tighter even than most families -- nothing but the
supernatural can justify such unilateral compulsion.
The problem then becomes linking these ultra-loyal disparate packs to
some common allegiance besides simple rank-and-file loyalty...
-- S. Skoog
K Kuhn
In article <34995F...@ll.mit.edu>, sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
<snip>
>
> ...Which is the only reason the Sabbat (as defined) still exist, as I
> see things. The neo-factions' arguments differ in particulars, but
> all center around the same ideological rub: as long as we slide
> into a hierarchy and accept leadership from 'elders' and 'betters,'
> we are no better than the Camarilla. (The conservatives, of course,
> don't care for this school of thought, because they, for the most
> part, give the orders.)
>
> This, rather than the semi-mythical Shadow Crusade, Inquisition, or
> half-a-dozen other supernatural folderol, is the true conundrum
> facing the Sabbat: despite their ranting and raving about freedoms
> and truth to one's nature, they are on the verge of becoming what
> they most despise.
>
They've been on the verge for an awfully long time, then. And why are
Sabbat needed to worry about freedom and truth to one's nature when the
anarchs already exist? So you can have a group of freedom-loving anarchs
who are more obedient little pawns than the elders of the Camarilla ever
dreamed of having?
I usually tend to like trying to come up with reasons for such things like
why the NWO, despite supposedly being the masters of propaganda and spin
control, are one of the most disliked conventions even among the
Technocracy, or why the werewolves, despite having close relationships
with the spirits and an entire class dedicated to talking to the spirits
and finding out what they want, still killed off the rest of the
shapechangers in the War of Rage without ever apparently figuring out that
Gaia, and by extension her totem children, might not like them killing off
Her other Children.
But when it comes to the Sabbat, by the time I came up with a few ideas
for reconciling some contradictions, it was blatantly contradicting other
stuff. And when I tried coming up with an idea of what vampires should be
like as a different moral system (which is the normal excuse for why the
Sabbat exists), I gave up on the Paths and the Sabbat completely and went
with an obscure independant bloodline simply because the Paths as written,
to me anyway, were either rehashes of philosophies I could see humans
following and not inhuman at all, or else simply Paths of What I Was Going
To Do Anyway for those people who wanted to play nothing but blood and
guts without getting penalized for it as they do in the normal rules.
Rewrite the Sabbat to be more like the Heretics of Wraith (which is IMO
the best written of the games), and you can explain why they haven't taken
over the Camarilla with mass Embracing tactics. Like, each Path is sure
it has the one true way to be a vampire - the only reason the Paths
cooperate is because if they don't, the Camarilla will wipe them out. But
if the Paths allow one of the other Paths to do lots of Mass Embracing,
then that Path might get too much power and wipe *them* out, so any Path
that gets too many adherents tends to get the other Paths to ally against
them. Also explains why sieges are rare - it's difficult to get enough of
the various Paths to agree as to who gets to have the most privileges in
the city afterwards, without leading to an internecine fight because some
of the other Paths think one is getting too powerful.
This also explains how the packs can work together even though many of the
Paths have seriously different ideas - they don't. Each pack only follows
one Path.
Treating them like cultists has the other advantage of explaining the
brainwashing techniques, and it also makes them something other than
anarchs who can't realize that they're the exact same thing they're
supposedly fighting.
If you want the anti-Ante plot - the real Sabbat is like the True Black
Hand - a rumor of some vampires who are trying to find and destroy the
Antes before Gehenna, but no one knows who or where they are. At least
IMHO, a group that wants to destroy the Antes should be more interested in
researching where they might be, and trying to keep their existence secret
from the Antes while doing it, instead of coming up with a plan best
summarized as "we'll set up in business and proclaim that as soon as the
Antes let us know where they are, we'll go and kill them."
Of course, by now it doesn't much resemble the Sabbat as published, does it?
<snip>
DShomshak
In article <19971214224...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, coyo...@aol.com
(Coyote895) writes:
>Speaking of the Sabbat, (judging by the flavor of these posts I'm gonna
>get flamed up the ass for this, but what the hell) has White Wolf truly
>cancelled it's ideas for Sabbat 2nd Edition, a hardcover retelling of the 2
>main Sabbat books?
I asked Rob Hatch about this a few months ago, and he said that they hadn't
found an author for it yet. Perhaps he has since then.
Dean Shomshak
**********************************************************
Send e-mail responses to DSho...@juno.com.
The AOL address is a spam trap.
**********************************************************
DShomshak
In article <349591...@ll.mit.edu>, sv...@ll.mit.edu writes:
>Something to which I tried to devote a lot of thought and research while
>working on _Baali_ was the vampiric condition -- particularly, the slippage
>of humanity and even remotely human-seeming behavior over the
>passage of years/decades/centuries/millennia -- and what gradually
>filled in the void left behind... <snip>
Well! Each hint make CB: Baali sound more and mor interesting, Sven. Guess
I'll have to buy it. (You sly dog.)
> various alternatives to humanity comprise much of what appeals to me
>about Sabbat, Black Hand, and other non-Camarilla styles of gaming...<snip>
Yes, Paths of Enlightenment are potentially very interesting. One of my own
pet peeves about the Sabbat as it stands is that the various Paths don't seem
that inhuman, or even like coherent points of view. I'd like to see a
treatment of Paths that revealed them as genuinely inhuman POVs. It's pioneer
SF editor John W. Campbell's challenge all over again: "Show me a creature
that thinks _as well as_ a human but _not like_ a human."
(I made some notes toward this, but the project never got very far. It's
harder than it may sound, and with only 1 Sabbat NPC in my whole "Seattle By
Night" campaign, it wasn't a high priority.)
I have to agree with various other posters that the Sabbat-Camarilla conflict
doesn't make a lot of sense, with one condition: the Sabbat-Cam conflict
should _not_ be stable. Most game worlds, I've noticed, tend to a assume a
"steady state" with no important changes either in the past or the future.
Often, part of the PCs' job is to prevent the threat of such changes (for
instance, stopping a supervillain or Dark Lord or whatever from taking over the
world). The WoD, whatever else you say about it, is not stable! Whichever
game you choose, the world is at or near a crisis point where great changes are
possible.
So I can accept the Sabbat-Cam war as one which will end in a few decades --
one way or another. Some possibilities (and I'm sure we all can think of
endless variations):
1) The Sabbat has long been a serious threat to the Camarilla, but neither has
been able to gain an advantage for long. When one side is winning and the
other is on the verge of total defeat, the winning side falls apart in
internecine conflict. Obviously, some unseen hand controls both sides. (This
seems most consistent with "canon" WoD.)
2) The Sabbat has been a tiny, weak, disorganized sect until a few decades
ago. Sure, it held Mexico, but who cared about Mexico? Then it perfected its
strategy for conquering Cam-held cities and began expanding. The Cam has not
yet organized a response. Perhaps it never will.
3) The Sabbat and Camarilla have been powerful adversaries for a long time,
both gaining victories in some areas and losses in others. It's a war of
attrition as much as a war of strategy, with no guarantee who will win. This
demands that the Camarilla be given strategies for taking Sabbat cities -- and
something more than "Send in a Justicar to slaughter the Sabbat." The Sabbat
has plenty of powerful "Elders" too, judging by _Chaos Factor._ Campaigns
emphasizing such a Sab/Cam war would have more of a military or espionage feel.
(Which does not mean they will be less horrifying. Vicious, ruthless
intrigue, deception and betrayal are a natural part of war or Cold War -- in
addition to more visceral horrors.)
4) The Sabbat has had victories lately, but the Camarilla is about to prove
once more the superior power of age and treachery. Essentially, the Cam isn't
really weak and fragmented at all; it only seems so to the Neonates. Actually,
the Sabbat is being lured into false confidence, the Kindred of whole cities
sacrificed to the deception. When the Secret Masters say "frog," the Princes
will jump and the Sabbat will get hammered. But will the Cam and the
Masquerade survive?
That should do for a start.
Marc17
DShomshak wrote:
<snip>
5) The Sabbat, having accepted basic truths such as that they are
vampires and paying only token respect to things like the Masquerade
at best, are much more in touch with the supernature of the world.
Since they aren't spending som much time hiding themselves from the
rest of the world they have a good deal more contact with the other
supernatural creatures that also exist. They have contacts with mages,
garou, hedge wizards, Pentex, etc. While they're main goal is fighting
the elders, and defacto, the Camarilla and Inconnu, much of their time
and resources are going towards making allies and fighting enemies
that the Camarilla scarely know exist because they spend so much
effort to hide themselves from everybody else. An example of this is
the Sabbat Inqusition against demonic forces.
Zarquon
Re: Re: Does Justin Hate Everything?
> > > >- Nauseating, if well-reasoned, discussion over how the World of
> > > >Darkness fits into the Mage "paradigm" (If a situation in life ever
> > > >arises in which the word "paradigm" is keenly suited, switch vocations!)
> > Hmm... how about all those management courses mentioned in Dilbert.. I reca
> > methidonigal paridigm"... (please excuse spelling and misquote.. actual com
> Well, that's probably what he meant by 'switch vocations'
> Who in his right frame of mind would want be an engineer?
> Clemens
Define "right frame of mind". I happen to be trying to decide between
Comp Sci, Comp Eng, or Comp Sci/Eng (not too common, but have seen a few).