Mage-Ghoul
Ian Turner
Michiel Schillhorn van Veen wrote:
>
> I proposed that the Ghoul should receive 1 point of Potence and a
> Blood Pool according to his generation. That means that when a 9th
> generation Vampire creates a Ghoul, the Ghoul should be 10th
> generation.
The Blood Pool is whatever the vampire gave you. If he gave you
only a single point then your blood pool is 1 and will be gone in a
months time, unless you spend it to heal, boost attributes or as tass
before that time. Humans can only hold 10 Blood Points ever and this is
IN ADDITION TO their mortal blood pool which is useful only in the usual
circulation, respiration, etc functions.
Ian Turner.
Michiel Schillhorn van Veen
My Mage character was recently captured by vampires and he was forced
to drink the Vampire blood. This makes him a Ghoul. My story-teller
and I found a few rules on ghouls shattered about the rule-books, but
nothing stated explicitely what happens when a character drinks
vampiric Vitae. A Ghoul receives Potence and a Blood Pool, this much
is clear, but not how much. Also the Ghoul stops ageing for as long as
there is Vitae in his blood. As soon as the Vitae runs out, ageing
starts again with a vengeance and after your natural life-span has
expired you die within days or even hours.
I proposed that the Ghoul should receive 1 point of Potence and a
Blood Pool according to his generation. That means that when a 9th
generation Vampire creates a Ghoul, the Ghoul should be 10th
generation.
If a Mage drinks Vampire blood, each Blood Point translates into
Quintessence - Vitae and Quintessence being both supernatural sources
of power. A part of the Quintessence-Paradox wheel, dependent upon the
generation of the vampire the ghoul drinks from first, is set apart
for Vitae. A 7th generation vampire creates therefore a ghoul with a
blood pool of 15 points. But this is only the vampire the ghoul drinks
from FIRST. If he drank first from a 15th generation... Nada. (Or if
the ST is lenient, 1 Blood Point.)
The Blood Pool can be filled with both Blood Points or Quintessence,
but the ghoul can have no more Blood Points than his generation can
support. Paradox burns both Quintessence and Blood Points, so the mage
can never have more power than his Paradox allows.
Vitae can be used just as Quintessence is used, but there are
restrictions.
One Blood Point is lost every month to support youth and when all
Vitae is lost, ageing starts. A wise vampire never allowes his ghouls
to have more than one point of Vitae, but there may be unwise
vampires... And a wise mage never drinks from the same vampire twice,
to avoid being Blood-Bound.
Drinking the Vitae of an elder vampire can be very profitable (and
dangerous) for each sip of concentrated Vitae translates into a lot of
Blood Points. A 6th generation vampire already gives 3 Blood Points
for every time you drink a little bit!
But, on the other hand, the first vampire yiou drink from also imbues
a bit of the curse on you: drinking from a Nosferatu gives a slight
defornation, a Settite gives allergy to sunlight and a Toreador gives
hyper-esthetic preoccupation. And of course, a ghoul is also
vulnerable from frenzy.
These where the rules we agreed upon.
Could anyone tell us if this is according to the rulebooks we might
not have?
Bye and seasons greetings,
Michiel
Jalaroc
you seem to be looking at the advantages, from what I read drinking vamp
blood for a certain period of time leads to quiet. rules for ghouls are
in vamp the masq.
Shawn Bennett
Ian Turner wrote:
>
> Michiel Schillhorn van Veen wrote:
> >
> > Blood Pool according to his generation. That means that when a 9th
> > generation Vampire creates a Ghoul, the Ghoul should be 10th
> > generation.
>
> only a single point then your blood pool is 1 and will be gone in a
> months time, unless you spend it to heal, boost attributes or as tass
> before that time. Humans can only hold 10 Blood Points ever and this is
> IN ADDITION TO their mortal blood pool which is useful only in the usual
> circulation, respiration, etc functions.
>
> Ian Turner.
The way we have done it (for determining generation for ghouls) is that
they are equeal to two generations lower than the Kindred that it is
ghouled to.
Shawn
John Christensen
In article <19961223040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jal...@aol.com (Jalaroc) wrote:
I don't know..To tell the truth, in none of the rulebooks does it give
specific rules for ghouling. For instance, in Werewolf they give one
sentance about how a werewolf can be blood bounded. Then again, in Under
a Blood Red Moon they give rules for abominations that assume that a
Vampire is a creature of the Wyrm. So..Maybe this would work:
Upon receiving blood, the Werewolf must make a gnosis roll. The
difficulty will be 10 - <amount of blood given>. This makes a certain
amount of sense, given that the more blood give, the more chance that it
will "flood the system" and succeed in ghouling the Werewolf. The results
go on the following chart:
Botch - The ghouling worked extremely well and the Garou now has the
full powers of being a Ghoul. No more gnosis rolls will ever need to be
made for ghouling a Garou.
0 Successes - The ghouling worked..sorta. While the Garou is a
ghoul, he is unable to spend his newly given blood points as a true ghoul
can, nor does he receive Potence 1 and Fortitude 1 as a true ghoul does.
The ghouling can be attempted again, before the originial blood points are
burnt out of his system, but each attempt adds 1 to the difficulty.
1+ Successes - The Garou frenzies. Each turn of frenzy burns up one
point of Vampiric blood in his system. Bad things, man..Bad things:>
If the ghouling is successful, than the Garou will show up as
Wyrm-Tainted PROVIDED the Vampire has a humanity less than 7. If not,
well..Tough. The Garou may also improve his disciplines, but the
experience costs are /twice/ that of normal ghouls(Garou are more used to
learning spiritual Gifts as their form of magic and thus will find this to
be a rather new and ackward learning method).
As for mage. I don't know the system /that/ well..But here's a possibility.
Upon receiving blood, the Mage is ghouled(lacking a connecting to any
spiritual force to prevent this ghouling.) However, there are
complications:
A) Each point of Vampiric blood in the Mage's system reduces his
connection ot his Avatar and thus his ability to do True Magick. Each
point raises the difficulty to ANY magick use by 1.(Second possibility -
each point of blood reduces the number of dice the Mage can roll for arete
by one).
B) The Mage gains the normal ghoul disciplines. However, raising them
costs twice as much. Also the disciplines may not be used in conjection
with any form of True Magick, as the two are totally differenct concepts
of magick.
Okay..Okay..The mage rules a little weak. Any idea for improvement?
Toonces
John Christensen
In article <toonces-2212...@usr13-85.dial.roc.frontiernet.net>,
too...@servtech.com (John Christensen) wrote:
> Upon receiving blood, the Werewolf must make a gnosis roll. The
> difficulty will be 10 - <amount of blood given>. This makes a certain
> amount of sense, given that the more blood give, the more chance that it
> will "flood the system" and succeed in ghouling the Werewolf. The results
> go on the following chart:
Okay..Okay..That doesn't really work, given that if you reduce the
difficulty, it makes it more likely that the Garou will be able to avoid
the ghouling. Instead, why don't we make the difficutly 5 + <amount of
blood given>. That oughta work:>
Toonces
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Shawn Bennett wrote:
>
> Ian Turner wrote:
> >
> > Michiel Schillhorn van Veen wrote:
> > >
> > > I proposed that the Ghoul should receive 1 point of Potence and a
> > > Blood Pool according to his generation. That means that when a 9th
> > > generation Vampire creates a Ghoul, the Ghoul should be 10th
> > > generation.
Some rules for this were given in the main book (I think -- wherever
it is that talks about Ghouls having a ceiling on Discipline level
based on their master's Generation... they can only learn level 2
Disciplines if they are drinking 7th gen blood, 3rd if 6th, 4th if 5th,
etc., or something similar).
Alternately, it might be in _Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand_; can't
remember just now. But there is some mention -- I think it references
the same-blood-pool-as-a-human bit.
-- Sven
Ian Turner
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> Some rules for this were given in the main book (I think -- wherever
> it is that talks about Ghouls having a ceiling on Discipline level
> based on their master's Generation... they can only learn level 2
> Disciplines if they are drinking 7th gen blood, 3rd if 6th, 4th if
> 5th, etc., or something similar).
Both the Storyteller's Handbook and the Storytellers Secrets to
the Dark Ages books have rules on this. Liber des Ghoules also has some
stuff that is easy enough to extrapolate into what will soon be Fatal
Addiction. Most interestingly is that Ghouls still get a free dot upon
receiving their first full blood point of Kindred Vitae, but this dot
can be Potence, Fortitude or Celerity. Since every Assamite (save
Antitribu) spends 7 years as a Ghoul before earning the Embrace, this
tends to explain why all Assamites don't have Potence.
It does nothing to explain why Tremere, who also tend to
commonly Ghoul their apprentices (sometimes for centuries), do not have
a 'physical' discipline to start. Then again I would probably count the
first level of Auspex as a physical discipline which would cover the
Malkavians, Tremere and Tzimisce nicely, since they (and the Setites,
who ALSO Ghoul their potential Progeny and for whom I can do nothing!)
are the only 3 Clans without a Physical Discipline.
Argh! Nothing is solved! Must wait for Fatal Addiction...
Ian Turner.
James Desborough
I just got the MET Book of ghouls and I must say that I am very surprised
at the restrictions given on ghouling.
1 in 100 werewolves can be ghouled? What's the point of taking the untamable
merit then? Very wyrm tainted vamps blood may be poison to weres, but really.
MAGES. May destroy their avatar. No! Ghouling is not the embrace, its a
lending of power, it augments.
The way I do it is that anything can be ghouled. Its the primary control
method for Vamps without presence or dominate. The ghoul recieves potence
1/Prowess and any disciplines the master has -3 levels, to represent the
power inherant in the masters blood. They always have a blood pool of 10,
but needn't be filled up.
GRIM
--
*****************************************************************************
* 100,000 Lemmings Can't be wrong *
* Gr...@postmort.demon.co.uk *
* cool site at www.postmort.demon.co.uk *
* VLARP site at www.rikprod.demon.co.uk *
* Better to have never loved at all and saved yourself the pain of loss *
*****************************************************************************
James McPherson
: > you seem to be looking at the advantages, from what I read drinking vamp
: > blood for a certain period of time leads to quiet. rules for ghouls are
: > in vamp the masq.
: I don't know..To tell the truth, in none of the rulebooks does it give
: specific rules for ghouling. For instance, in Werewolf they give one
: sentance about how a werewolf can be blood bounded.
The problem with ghouling, regardless of Mage, Werewolf, Vampire, or
normal person is the abject adoration you give the blood-source. Unless
you are hideously careful never to feed from a single vampire more than
three times you will end up blood bound. (Awright, there is the "kill 'em
and take their blood tactic" but it's kinda hard to get a way with that
for too long)
The annoying total love factor is a real pain. Read the intro to V:DA for
an example of a powerful being ghouled to a lesser one. Mortals will
willingly allow the vampire to drink from them for survival and the Bond
plus the Embrace makes your self-preservation factors nil. (Burn lots of
willpower to try and resist.) While the potence, rapid-healing, and the
potential of disciplines are appealing that "willingly throw yourself into
the jaws of death for your master" thing sounds like a bummer.
Me, I'm curious what effect the Viniculum would have on mortals. Would it
end up with a Viniculum effect, due to the blended blood, or what?
--
Kilroy
MynstiomN
Kig Mat'Zo Mat
http://www.ntr.net/~kilroy
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Jalaroc
my mistake it should be in mage, try looking up quiet or vampires but I'm
sure I saw it there. look at from a game balance point of view.
Wolf
John Christensen wrote:
>
> In article <19961223040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> jal...@aol.com (Jalaroc) wrote:
>
> > blood for a certain period of time leads to quiet. rules for ghouls are
> > in vamp the masq.
>
> I don't know..To tell the truth, in none of the rulebooks does it give
> specific rules for ghouling. For instance, in Werewolf they give one
> a Blood Red Moon they give rules for abominations that assume that a
> Vampire is a creature of the Wyrm. So..Maybe this would work:
>
> difficulty will be 10 - <amount of blood given>. This makes a certain
> amount of sense, given that the more blood give, the more chance that it
> will "flood the system" and succeed in ghouling the Werewolf. The results
> go on the following chart:
says "A mortal who drinks the blood of a vampire, but has not first been
drained, becomes a ghoul." Pg 238. This included all breathers. A Garou
becomes a ghoul at the first taking of vampire blood, period. So do
mages. They immediately gain a point of Potence and a blood pool. Garou
and mages can also be blood bound just like anyone else. The
Abominations you refered to are EMBRACED Garou. Pay attention, READ
fool!
Wolf
Quentin M Small
Wolf <wo...@glasscity.net> wrote:
Like, uh, chill out Beavis, he as just trying to come up with
somehting that would make Were and Mage Ghouls mot munchkin monsters
from the Abyss. Personally, it doesn't like such a bad idea. Garou
Ghouls, should, at the very least, gain a dot in Corruption that can
only be cleansed when the vamp blood is out of their system.
Quentin
Wolf
James Desborough
> The Untameable merit applies only to Dominate and mind control.
And blood-bonding isn't mind control?
Ian Turner
Wolf wrote:
> Like, uh, chill out Beavis, he as just trying to come up with
> somehting that would make Were and Mage Ghouls mot munchkin monsters
> from the Abyss. Personally, it doesn't like such a bad idea. Garou
> Ghouls, should, at the very least, gain a dot in Corruption that can
> only be cleansed when the vamp blood is out of their system.
makes it clear that several Verbena were Blood Bonded, Ghouled, used and
abused by the Black Hand in the past. It is clear that a Mage can be
Ghouled and a Werewolf can even be Embraced (1 time in a 1000)! I agree
that the Garou should gain a dot in Corruption and the Mage a minor
difficulty of some sort (although -1 dot of Arete per blood point is
extravagantly cruel, you are counting each blood point as a level of
Fomori powers by this standard!).
I don't know enough about mage to know how a dot of Potence is
unbalancing to a Mage (do they use Strength to cast spells like in
GURPS? If so a point that never goes away could have uses...), but I am
sure those of you who DO know Mage can find a minor Hindrance along the
lines of a point of Banality for Changelings or a point of Corruption
for Garou. Each Blood Point should not penalize seperately (unless the
penalties are tiny, remember that the Mage should be able to hold 10
Blood Points and still be able to like walk and talk and stuff!!!).
Ian Turner.
Jalaroc
way to powerful, need to think in terms of game balance. Also, if I were
ST and player mage wanted to be a ghoul, I'd have the vampire drive the
mule into the ground, get the most work out of him that I could. mages are
too powerful to keep around for long periods of time. in any game, but
especially WOD-every gift has its price. check out rules for quiet or
bloodbond in mage, I am positive its there.
Brian Wilson
Okay I feel really dumb for asking this, but what is this "quiet" you guys keep
talking about?...and could somebody give me a clue as to where I can get my
grubby little hands on Under a Blood Red Moon? I'd give my fangs for that
book...er almost. They fit too good. ;)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Brian Wilson
Seduction is a force bri...@katie.vnet.net
more powerful than that CEO Lexington Business Associates
of money, but love is
the most powerful force Hey check out my home page it's waiting at:
of all. http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~bw15644
-Stephanie Leonard
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Ian Turner wrote:
[in response to 'Wolf']
>> Garou Ghouls, should, at the very least, gain a dot in Corruption
>> that can only be cleansed when the vamp blood is out of their system.
I'd agree with this system for non-Ghouls; that is, a Garou who drinks
vampire blood once (either willingly or inadvertently) should be
somewhat Corrupt until he/she/it has purified he/she/itself.
The whole idea of a Ghoul, however, is servitude to a foul creature
(namely, a vampire), and reaping of some of the benefits (healing,
superior strength, conditional immortality) that ensue.
I think that's substantially more corrupt than one dot.
> It is clear that a Mage can be Ghouled and a Werewolf can even be
> Embraced (1 time in a 1000)!
For a Garou of Gnosis 3-6, it's more like 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 (16%-20%);
see my post 'Abominations (inc. Probabilities),' doubtless expired by
now, but still available on DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com).
Not good odds, but certainly better than one-tenth of a percent. ;)
> I agree that the Garou should gain a dot in Corruption and the Mage a
> minor difficulty of some sort...
We can go back to WW canon to gauge where the Corruption rating would
lie -- the Skin Dance is base Corruption 7. Not one, not three, seven.
Now, that's killing and skinning other Garou, which is probably a bit
nastier than voluntarily returning to periodically drink the blood of a
Wyrm creature to whom you are now enslaved... but not _much_ nastier.
I'd say Corruption should hover at 5 or 6 -- enough for other Garou to
sense that their brother/sister 'walks the edge,' as it were.
> I don't know enough about mage to know how a dot of Potence is
> unbalancing to a Mage...
I'll tell you -- I don't think that it is. Not one dot, anyway.
If we follow standard WW Ghoul rules (which, it's only fair for me to
point out, might be rendered null and void by _Fatal Addiction_), a
Ghoul can't learn a Discipline above level (9 - master's Generation),
rounding up to one for all Generations 'weaker' than Eighth. So most
Mages are going to be frozen at Potence 1, plus maybe another Discipline
or two at one dot apiece, over the years it will take to find teachers.
Now, many people have mentioned (correctly) Klaus Hortemone, a member
of House Tytalus from Doissetep (see _The Book of Chantries_), who is a
Ghoul (presumably of Tremere) -- Klaus has a dot in Potence, maybe one
in Fortitude and Protean (Gleam of Red Eyes) as well.
He must spend most of his life _terrified_, however -- because, if other
Traditions (indeed, even many of his own Order) discover his treachery,
they will strike him down, and perhaps even sentence him to Gilgul. And
the opportunities for other Magi to find out -- mind probes, spirit
informants, postcognition, etc. -- are hardly few and far between. If
any of his brethren find out, he pretty much instantly picks up the Flaw
Hunted (4) (Doissetep), which I wouldn't wish on anyone.
Now, I think a handful of Garou might go for this variety of power...
the Uktena 'Wyrm Eater,' from _Caerns: Places of Power_, for instance,
seems to be either a Ghoul or an Abomination, and experiences all sorts
of nasty side effects (sweats purple), but willingly embraces his new
powers; the vampire listed in the Australian caern is thought to be
keeping the last pair of Tasmanian wolves (Bunyip Kinfolk) unnaturally
alive with his blood (Ghouling them); and, of course, there's always
Sam Haight.
So I don't think it's impossible -- but I think circumstances
(corruption, continual risk of detection, potential for being hunted
down and killed) should be largely the same for Garou who pull this
stunt as it is for Mages.
-- S. Skoog
Ludo
> Okay I feel really dumb for asking this, but what is this "quiet" you guys keep
> talking about?...and could somebody give me a clue as to where I can get my
> grubby little hands on Under a Blood Red Moon? I'd give my fangs for that
> book...er almost. They fit too good. ;)
Quiet is - at its most basic - the name given to those periods of time
when a mage's mind takes refuge from the paradoxical nature of his or
her manipulations of reality by going completely looney-tunes. This
usually lasts until the mage is able to reconcile the difference(s)
between the subjective reality shared by the rest of us and the private
universe wherein the mage is master of the multiverse and able to
believe he can actually throw the occasional fireball.
In extreme cases, the Quiet is so deep - ie the difference between the
mage's world-view and reality is so fundamental - that other people (in
the loosest sense of the word) are dragged into the mage's
hallucinations and experience them as if they were real. More than one
frenetic gaming session has been spent by players trying to work out if
they are tripping through the Umbra or sharing a mass-hallucination
while running screaming through the local shopping mall ;)
As for Blood Red Moon - I saw it in my local games store re-released
with the second edition Chicago By Night as a single Hardback titled (I
think) The Chicago Chronicles
-- Ludo
######################################################
#"Nothing is impossible - except skiing through a set#
# of revolving doors...maybe..." Terry Pratchett #
######################################################
Kevin Andrew Murphy
jal...@aol.com (Jalaroc) wrote:
>way to powerful, need to think in terms of game balance. Also, if I were
>ST and player mage wanted to be a ghoul, I'd have the vampire drive the
>mule into the ground, get the most work out of him that I could. mages are
>too powerful to keep around for long periods of time. in any game, but
>especially WOD-every gift has its price. check out rules for quiet or
>bloodbond in mage, I am positive its there.
The Perks and Problems I assess for mages who are ghouled/willingly
ghoul themselves/take to snacking on vampire blood are as follows.
Problem 1). Ghouls don't age. If you don't age, you don't grow older.
Spiritually as well as physically. Which means that while you get to
keep your Arete, you won't be able to spend any experience on more
until you kick the vamp blood habit. All your seekings come to nil.
Problem 2). Unless you're a predator on vampires, you get bloodbound
to your new master. Which is one big problem.
Problem 3). It's very much of a mage taboo thingy to be a ghoul.
Mostly because of reasons 1 & 2.
Then there are the Perks:
1). You can use Potence, Celerity and Fortitude like any other ghoul,
without problems or paradox.
2). If you learn any of the nifty vampiric disciplines, you instead
learn the Spheres that they come under, but you can use the specific
powers--Dread Gaze (Mind), Shadow of the Wolf (Life), etc.--paradox
free with no roll unless one is needed for a vampire or ghoul to use
them. Using more mage-like applications works as per normal Spheres.
3). While you can learn Tremere Thaumaturgy, all you get is the blood
stuff. The Paths and Rituals instead fall under your regular mage
stuff, so you still get paradox.
At least that's the way I work it.
Kevin Andrew Murphy
Author of assorted Goth weirdness
New fiction available at:
http://www.sff.net/people/Kevin.A.Murphy
Scout
Okay, I read the conversation and I have to say something.
Mages shouldn't be penalized. Flat out. In terms of game balance
alone, ghouled mages are hurt because they are blood bound (most
likely). If a mage was caught unawares and ghouled or simply forced
into being a ghoul, the vamp (if he had any brains) would have
blood-bonded him. I think we could all agree on this one. Being bound
seems like a BIG disadvantage to me. Why restrict his learning process
or freeze his arete on top of being blood bound. Too cruel. The mage
may be immortal but he shouldn't be penalized until he's aged way beyond
his paradigm allows (like the mages at Doisstepp). If a mage uses leech
blood as an advantage in the ascension war, so be it. It's a risky
enough maneuver considering the danger of blood binding, being killed by
the leech "donor" (if a mage hunts for his blood), or being branded a
threat by your own allies (doesn't a mage-ghoul present a security
threat to any chantry?). There's more threats too. So..I'll sum up my
rambling:
1. There are enough problems in being a ghoul that no special actions
need to be taken for such characters.
2. If it doesn't violate the paradigm, why should the mage be
penalized?
Jalaroc
I doubt the tremere would be able to use the rage pts, arete is the level
of enlightenment(doubt its transferrable)no way could he use forces
sphere. I can see
the vampiric disciplines and maybe transferring of skills but the others
are beyond assimilation.
J.W.Thomas
Just my 0,02
Ever see the level 4? ritual DRAWING ON THE BOND?
It allows the Thraumaturgist to 'borrow' one point of anything
from someone they have blood bonded...
Its SO F-k-n EVIL if used right, as you can only take one dot from
EACH GHOUL
The worse I've seen was a Tremere who managed to Blood Bond the Whole
party (a mix match of mages, weres, vamps and a bastet) using the Vessel
of transference.
The Dumb PC's had no Kindred Lore or occult skills to spreak of, and the other
vamp was under prestation and kept quiet...
After Tooling up for the BIG fight, the Tremere walks out of his ritual room
with
Visceteria 1 (Bat Wings that allow 5mph flight) off the gargoyle NPC
The Gangrels Fortitude 1
Three rage off the 3 weres
and arete 2, forces 2 off the mages
He then cranked 'blood of potency' right up (he was 8th gen...4 successes
dropped him to 5th for an hour)
People still shudder when they speak of what he DID...
As a warning, watch this sort of think VERY carefully.
unless balanced it can go power crazy
CHOPPER The god is absent
ChOpPeR His dead leaves are piling
cHoPpEr And all is deserted
chopper -Basho
sv...@ll.mit.edu
J.W.Thomas wrote:
> Ever see the level 4? ritual DRAWING ON THE BOND?
[after Bonding all of his fellow PCs and hacking their powers --]
> the Tremere walks out of his ritual room with
> Visceteria 1 (Bat Wings that allow 5mph flight) off the gargoyle NPC
> The Gangrels Fortitude 1
> Three rage off the 3 weres
> and arete 2, forces 2 off the mages
This has come up in discussion (although, thankfully, never in play)
before in my circles.
The Disciplines should work -- after all, this is what the Ritual was
meant to do. No problem there; it's as balancing (or unbalancing) as
the Thaumaturgist has managed to be crafty enough to pull off (Bonding
the right people).
And maybe even the Rage should work -- although any vampire, Camarilla,
Sabbat, or otherwise, should either
(a) be in a perpetual state of Frenzy or
(b) have INCREDIBLY tough rolls to resist Frenzy in just about
any stressful situation
...once he/she/it (the Thaumaturge) has Rage in his/her/its system.
That's what it's like for the Garou, after all, and they've had a
lifetime to cope with it, releasing it where appropriate. The vampire
has no similar experience... except perhaps the Beast. (WW canon
regarding vampires drinking werewolf blood and frenzying more easily
seems to support me here.)
The siphoning off of a Mage's Avatar and True Magick, however, is
another matter entirely, and there are any number of things a
Storyteller could do, depending on his/her interpretation of how the
vampiric (Caine) splintered Avatar interacts with an Awakened (Mage)
Avatar. Some are more or less cruel than the others --
(a) The ability to confer True Magick (Arete, the Avatar, Spheres,
etc.) is simply not one the vampire (a creature whose existence
and powers still dwell on the fringe of static reality) can
grasp -- the Thaumaturge's Ritual fails, and the Mage's powers
are unaffected (or maybe unusable for that night).
(b) The ability to confer True Magick is successfully stolen from
the Mage for the duration of Drawing Upon the Bound. (The
simple solution, although it chafes a bit at the rules IMHO.)
(c) The ability to confer True Magick is successfully stolen from
the Mage for the duration -- but the vampire's (static) Pattern
can only work static magic adaptations of Sphere magick (such
as Thaumaturgy, which is really just a blood-based static form
of dynamic (Sphere) magick).
The Mage should pick a single Rote/Effect (perhaps the last one
he/she attempted to use) involving that Sphere(s), and THAT
is what is transferred to the Thaumaturge for the duration.
(d) The ability to confer True Magick is successfully stolen from
the Mage, and the Avatar is forced into the Thaumaturge's body --
where, deprived of a Life Pattern with which to merge, it dies.
The Thaumaturge gains no benefits from his/her Ritual, and the
Mage has effectively experienced Gilgul. (This is too cruel for
me to use in my games, however -- I'd go for something between
(a) and (c).)
(e) The ability to confer True Magick is successfully stolen (or not)
from the Mage for the duration, and, after it expires, the Mage
regains his/her lost Spheres/Arete... but a rudimentary
understanding of dynamic magick, consensual reality, and Paradox
has now been forced upon the vampiric mind, and the Thaumaturge,
from now on, will suffer Paradox effects and possible backlashes
from using his/her vulgar (observed) Disciplines and Thaumaturgy,
just the same as a true Mage using those powers would.
(f) CRASH! The Avatar splinters and weakens, partially forced into
a non-living Life Pattern. Points stolen from Arete
and/or Spheres are lost PERMANENTLY, and no one ends up
able to use it -- additionally, the Mage's Avatar may now
be permanently damaged, and may hold this damage over in
future incarnations (see the Flaws 'Sphere Inept' or
'Magickal Imperative'). Very nasty.
> As a warning, watch this sort of think VERY carefully.
> unless balanced it can go power crazy
...but I think several of the suggestions above make the Ritual at
least balanced, if not capable of teaching the vampire not to mess
around with things beyond his/her understanding. ;)
-- S. Skoog
Adam Lee
In <32D3F1...@ll.mit.edu> sv...@ll.mit.edu writes:
>
>
>The Disciplines should work -- after all, this is what the Ritual was
>meant to do. No problem there; it's as balancing (or unbalancing) as
>the Thaumaturgist has managed to be crafty enough to pull off (Bonding
>the right people).
>
>another matter entirely, and there are any number of things a
>Storyteller could do, depending on his/her interpretation of how the
>vampiric (Caine) splintered Avatar interacts with an Awakened (Mage)
>Avatar. Some are more or less cruel than the others --
>
What about saying that the magic has to me siphoned through the
mage but the Thaumaturgist could use the powers as long as the mage was
within magical range. Therefore a mage with correspondance would be a
much more powerful source of power. If the mage could work the magic
from where the mage actually is, to effect where the vampire is, then
it should work. This is akin to "taking the reins" not stealing the
power.
Adam
Chris
On 9 Jan 1997 08:53:04 GMT, ada...@ix.netcom.com(Adam Lee) wrote:
Ok, what happens if a Tremere makes 3 ghouls wich are bloodbound to
him. Each ghoul will have a potence of 1. I assumed that the ritual
meant that you could gain the power of the bound up to there rating of
their discipline. My storyteller is unbalancing the game and letting
the Tremere use all the cumualitive dots. Example:
bound #1 protean 3
bound#2 protean 2
= Tremere can draw upon 5 levels of protean! Neither gangrel or the
Tremere have a clue of what protean can do beyond level 3 so this
should be impossible. Whats next, bind one more gangrel and have the
use of protean levels beyond even level 5?
Ian Turner
Smack that ST! That is quite abusive and no one needs a rule to
tell them that!!!
Ian Turner.
Wanderer
Adam Lee <ada...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5b2blg$t...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...
magic isn't being cast *through* the mage, or by his Avatar ... it's being
cast by a vampire, who has no Avatar remaining. Therefore, we're talking
an interaction of static magic and dynamic Magick ... think AC appliance
meets DC outlet ... the results are shocking.;>
Yours with thoughts of game balance,
The understanding,
Wanderer****************'Where am I going?I don't quite know.
****************************'What does it matter where people go?
wand...@why.net'*****Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
wand...@whytel.com'*Anywhere!Anywhere!Idon't know!
Tjeby
Does it actually state that it lets one use any magic that the Bound
happens to have, or does it state "Disciplines"
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