Sabbat Thaumaturgy
Doug Bailey
In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat. My
argument is that Sabbat Thaum (i.e. Gift of Morpheus and the Sabbat
rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
K Kuhn
In article <32CFB3...@ix.netcom.com>, Doug Bailey
<aess...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
IMO, no way. First, the Sabbat is a very young organization originally
formed by childer who got tired of being considered expendable. So, where
did the original founders learn it? Thaumaturgy might have been around
for a few centuries before the Tremere showed up, but it was a rare enough
discipline that the few elders who had it probably wouldn't have taught it
to the childer they considered that expendable.
There's also the argument that the Tzimisce at least were bound to have
it, and they taught it to everyone else. Against that, there is that
quote in the PGttS from the Tremere, "They learn very quickly. For that
reason, we must be careful what we teach them." regarding the Tzimisce,
which argues that what thaum the Tzimisce had before the Tremere came by
was fairly limited if they had it at all. (Though judging from what I've
seen posted by Tzimisce players, they'll tell you that Tzimisce are as
good at Thaum as Tremere, so that might depend on the ST. Just out of
curiousity, does your opponent want to be Tzimisce?).
Also, you might want to notice that of the stereotypical Sabbat templates
given in the Storyteller's Handbook, only the Infernal Diabolist (Tainted
Soul), Infernal Diabolist (Fully Corrupted), Sabbat Inquisitor, Priscus,
and Tzimisce Torturer, out of 22 types listed, have Thaum. or Dark Thaum.
If he wants to argue that all the rituals given in the PGttS meant that
the author of the Sabbat books meant the super majority of Sabbat have
Thaum, ask him to explain why only 5 of the 22 stereotypes the same author
gave even had any mention of it in the SHttS.
If the Tremere antis only joined in the 1700s, and it sounds like the
Tzimisce didn't like the Tremere joining the Sabbat one bit, I really
can't see the Tremere antis going around teaching everyone their hole
card. According to the Tremere anti writeup, the Tremere antis turned
traitor and joined the Sabbat for their own safety, not ideology. And if
they joined for safety reasons instead of ideology, why should they teach
every other Sabbat this stuff? After all, if the other clans are as good
at Thaum as the Tremere, there isn't the need to keep the Tremere antis
safe so they can protect against the spells of the Cammie Tremere. This
might have changed after a few centuries, assuming that the Tzimisce no
longer oppose the Tremere antitribu, but then again, unless you're that 50
year old Sabbat infernalist in Montreal by Night, it's still going to take
lots of time for Thaum to become widespread and to the levels where it
becomes really useful. And would you really want to give up your hole
card if the Tzimisce oppose you anyway?
OTOH, I can certainly see Dark Thaum being widespread within the Sabbat,
considering that both stereotypical Infernalists had it, if Infernalism is
widespread in the Sabbat as it's supposed to be.
Chris Steenhorst
> rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
> concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
> Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
> share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
>
> My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
> majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
> like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
To answer this question, I looked up my copy of Montreal By Night
(great, GREAT book). I looked up how many vampires are in Montreal, how
many practice Thaumaturgy (not counting the Dark variety), and how many
are actually Tremere Antitribu. Here are the results:
Number of Sabbat in Montreal: 42
Number of Sabbat with Thaumaturgy: 13
Number of actual Tremere Antitribu: 2 (One of which is a constant
amnesiac)
Startling, isn't it? Hope this helps with your argument.
Fare Thee Well
Christian
--
Explain to me the scientific aspect of the 'Whammy'. -Scully
You can't acknowledge time, you can't even make it a Primogen
Vodka corrupts. But Absolut Vodka corrupts Absolutly.
Help! I've been crucified! And I can't get down!
Chris Steenhorst
Jalaroc (jal...@aol.com) writes:
> how many of the sabbat with thuamaturgy follow path of evil revelations?
Following the Path of Evil Revelations sets you on a path to serve
your dark lords. Learning Dark Thaumaturgy is a benefit of Evil
Revelations. Consider Thaumaturgy to be White Magic and Dark Thaumaturgy
to be Black Magic. Thaumaturgy uses the natural magical energy of the
world as its fuel. Dark Thaumaturgy uses the energies of...Hell, I
guess..as its primary fuel.
Remember, the leaders in the Path of Evil Revelations are not
Tremere Antitribu. They're mostly Lasombra and Toreador Antitribu -SGttS
> I personally agree with notion that thaumaturgy should be rare.
Suit yourself.
Jalaroc
how many of the sabbat with thuamaturgy follow path of evil revelations?
I personally agree with notion that thaumaturgy should be rare.
daniel livingston
Doug Bailey (aess...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
:
: My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
: majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
: like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
** How experienced with the Sabbat is your opponent? Is it
possible that he is mistaking the universal knowledge of Sabbat rituals
like Auctoritas and Ignoblis Ritae for Thaumaturgy rituals? I know a
number of people who have made the same mistake and could not comprehend
how everyone could know rituals when not everyone had Thaumaturgy. **
--
-Dan
LARP Storyteller, South Bend
Chris Steenhorst
K Kuhn (kkn...@ecity.net) writes:
>
> IMO, no way. First, the Sabbat is a very young organization originally
> formed by childer who got tired of being considered expendable. So, where
> did the original founders learn it? Thaumaturgy might have been around
> for a few centuries before the Tremere showed up, but it was a rare enough
> discipline that the few elders who had it probably wouldn't have taught it
> to the childer they considered that expendable.
Actually, the Sabbat was formed at the same time the Camarilla
was. The Sabbat was formed in response to the Camarilla. The founders
didn't learn it. A few Tremere defected to the Sabbat when both sects
started expansion into the New World. That's how most of the Thaumaturgy
ended up in the Sabbat.
And by the way, Thaumaturgy was around WAAAY before the Tremere
were around.
> If the Tremere antis only joined in the 1700s, and it sounds like the
> Tzimisce didn't like the Tremere joining the Sabbat one bit, I really
> can't see the Tremere antis going around teaching everyone their hole
> card. According to the Tremere anti writeup, the Tremere antis turned
> traitor and joined the Sabbat for their own safety, not ideology. And if
> they joined for safety reasons instead of ideology, why should they teach
> every other Sabbat this stuff? After all, if the other clans are as good
> at Thaum as the Tremere, there isn't the need to keep the Tremere antis
<<snip>>
From the point of view of Nosferatu Antitribu, Tremere Antitribu
are one of the more loyal clans to the sect. "And that's just from what
I've heard behind closed doors" -PGttS. The Sabbat believe in strength,
ergo, teaching Thaumaturgy would show loyalty to the sect. IMHO
> OTOH, I can certainly see Dark Thaum being widespread within the Sabbat,
> considering that both stereotypical Infernalists had it, if Infernalism is
> widespread in the Sabbat as it's supposed to be.
Again, I refer to Montreal By Night. Out of the 42 Sabbat
Vampires in Montreal, 3 of them practice Dark Thaum.
Chris
On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 08:59:20 -0500, Doug Bailey
<aess...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
>including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
>regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat. My
>argument is that Sabbat Thaum (i.e. Gift of Morpheus and the Sabbat
>rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
>concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
>Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
>share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
>
>My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
>majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
>like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
If you look at the examples of Sabbat characters in the rule books
a lot of them have a mix of discipline that are usually not shared as
much in the Camarilla. Protean and obfuscate are widespread in the
Sabbat, where as in the Camarilla, the Nosfueratu or Gangel would be
unlikely to share their specialties. It could be some weird affect of
the viniculum(sp?) but I doubt it. I prefer to think that the
brotherhood affect of the viniculum and the pack attitude in the
Sabbat is stronger in some ways than clan loyalties.
What does your clan do for you everyday? Your brothers and sisters
in your pack are your life, you fight and risk your unlives beside
them often. If a Sabbat vampire ever trusts anyone, it is as likely to
be their packmates as their clan. Also sharing some of your secrets
among the pack makes the pack more versatile and stronger, therefore
your pack and you get more prestige. Remember, the vinniculum is as
strong as a bloodbond, but instead of being controlled or commanded to
feel a certain way, you trust and like your packmates because you want
to.
I think that thaumaturgy could be shared just as much as protean or
the other discilplines. I'm not sure what the Tremere antribu have to
say about this, but maybe the antribu aren't as sectetive as the true
Tremere. Thaumaturgy may be harder to learn than other disciplines but
who says that thaum is any harder to learn than any new discipline, it
may just be more on the academic rather than physical control side.
Chris
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Doug Bailey <aess...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
>including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
>regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat. My
>argument is that Sabbat Thaum (i.e. Gift of Morpheus and the Sabbat
>rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
>concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
>Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
>share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
>My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
>majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
>like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
The opponent is wrong. While there is little love lost between
the Tzmisces and the Tremere antitribu, both understand
that it is in their best interests not to teach everyone else their
skills (particularly the Malks). While there are more Sabbat than
Cam members who have Thaumaturgy as a non-Clan discipline,
that doesn't make it common. I would confine it to the above two
clans and fairly experienced members of the paths of Power and
the Inner Voice and Death and the Soul (Spirit Thaum only).
And Evil Revelations, but that's not normal thaum...
Kestrel
The Fairly Decent Dragon
Ian Turner
Chris Steenhorst wrote:
>
> And by the way, Thaumaturgy was around WAAAY before the
> Tremere were around.
Thats what lots of people have assumed since Baba Yaga has it,
but it is unclear if she didn't wake up sometime in the last 1000 years
and learn it from a Tremere she was stuffing down her gullet.
It also seems that Embraced Mages are fairly likely to develop
basic Thaumaturgy (which could be how some early Tzimisce and Black
Hand got it), but not, it seems as a TEACHABLE Discipline, just as cool
stuff that no one else could do. The Tremere may not have INVENTED
Thaumaturgy, but they did made it into a real Discipline.
> From the point of view of Nosferatu Antitribu, Tremere
> Antitribu are one of the more loyal clans to the sect. "And that's
> just from what I've heard behind closed doors" -PGttS.
And the Caitiff book claims that the Caitiff has seen Tremere
and Tremere Antitribu in the Anarch Free States swapping secrets and
getting along. Quotes are hardly reliable...
Besides the Brujah and their Antitribu party frequently, the
Gangrel and Country Gangrel Antitribu consider themselves one nation,
the Nosferatu and Nosferatu Antitribu chat amicably in all but war
situations and the Toreador and Toreador Antitribu visit each others
galleries with their blessings, so whether or not the Tremere Antitribu
actually are fully loyal to the Sabbat is fairly unimportant compared to
the notion that just about nobody else is...
Ian Turner.
Sidewinder
K Kuhn <kkn...@ecity.net> wrote in article <kknolte-
> > In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
> > including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
> > regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat
> There's also the argument that the Tzimisce at least were bound to have
> it, and they taught it to everyone else. Against that, there is that
> quote in the PGttS from the Tremere, "They learn very quickly. For that
> reason, we must be careful what we teach them." regarding the Tzimisce,
> which argues that what thaum the Tzimisce had before the Tremere came by
> was fairly limited if they had it at all. (Though judging from what I've
> seen posted by Tzimisce players, they'll tell you that Tzimisce are as
> good at Thaum as Tremere, so that might depend on the ST. Just out of
> curiousity, does your opponent want to be Tzimisce?).
No reason that both the Tzimisce and the Tremere can't both know
thaumaturgy,
and both know it well. They just know different versions & paths. Part of
what
makes the Tremere so valuable to the the Sabbat is the knowledge they
bring,
and yes if they were to teach it to too many other clans then their
presence
would not be nearly so important. So the majority of the Sabbat would have
learned their thaumaturgy from the Tzimisce, who in turn would not have
released
their best stuff. So the Tzimisce try to learn as much of the Tremere
thaumaturgy
to maintian their current position in the Sabbat, while the Tremere take
what
they know, spreading only a little at a time, and add to that what the
Tzimisce
have let leek out. Both sides want what the other knows and does their
best
to prevent their secrets from spreading....
--
Sidewinder
"The essence of Life is struggle and its goal is domination.
There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist
only within the mind of man. The reality of life is war."
From The Way and the Power (Lovret, 1987 P1)
daniel livingston
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon (kes...@airmail.net) wrote:
: >My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
: >majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
: >like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
:
: The opponent is wrong. While there is little love lost between
: the Tzmisces and the Tremere antitribu, both understand
: that it is in their best interests not to teach everyone else their
: skills (particularly the Malks). While there are more Sabbat than
: Cam members who have Thaumaturgy as a non-Clan discipline,
: that doesn't make it common. I would confine it to the above two
: clans and fairly experienced members of the paths of Power and
: the Inner Voice and Death and the Soul (Spirit Thaum only).
: Kestrel
: The Fairly Decent Dragon
** But what is your reasoning for this opinion? You're
condemnation of the opponent's view of Thaumaturgy is based on nothing but
appeal to general stereotypes.
It is perfectly reasonable to assume also that while it is often
in one's best interests to keep one's lore secret, it is also a powerful
bargaining tool. The Tremere of the Sabbat were and still are far fewer
and consequently far less organized than the Tremere of the Camarilla. The
organization of the clan in the Camarilla is what keeps Thaumaturgy a
secret, because of the grave consequences the clan rains down upon any
member violating the decreed secrecy. Many Tremere might agree that it
would be in their personal best interest to trade their knowledge of Thaum
for other vampires' favors, were it not for the strict eye of their clan
elders.
Sabbat Tremere have no such strict clan elders, and consequently
have little reason to withhold sharing their knowledge if the return favor
is sweet enough (and it always is for knowledge of Thaum). Thus, it can
easily be argued that Thaumaturgy is relatively commonly accessible in the
Sabbat.
So, what is counter *evidence* or *reasoning"? **
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Chris Steenhorst) wrote:
>> IMO, no way. First, the Sabbat is a very young organization originally
>> formed by childer who got tired of being considered expendable. So, where
>> did the original founders learn it? Thaumaturgy might have been around
>> for a few centuries before the Tremere showed up, but it was a rare enough
>> discipline that the few elders who had it probably wouldn't have taught it
>> to the childer they considered that expendable.
> Actually, the Sabbat was formed at the same time the Camarilla
>was. The Sabbat was formed in response to the Camarilla. The founders
>didn't learn it. A few Tremere defected to the Sabbat when both sects
>started expansion into the New World. That's how most of the Thaumaturgy
>ended up in the Sabbat.
Since the Tzmisces outnumber Tremere Antitribu, I think that they're
more likely responsible for the Thaumaturgy in the Sabbat.
> And by the way, Thaumaturgy was around WAAAY before the Tremere
>were around.
Far, far earlier. Baba Yaga has some.
>> If the Tremere antis only joined in the 1700s, and it sounds like the
>> Tzimisce didn't like the Tremere joining the Sabbat one bit, I really
>> can't see the Tremere antis going around teaching everyone their hole
>> card. According to the Tremere anti writeup, the Tremere antis turned
>> traitor and joined the Sabbat for their own safety, not ideology. And if
>> they joined for safety reasons instead of ideology, why should they teach
>> every other Sabbat this stuff? After all, if the other clans are as good
>> at Thaum as the Tremere, there isn't the need to keep the Tremere antis
><<snip>>
> From the point of view of Nosferatu Antitribu, Tremere Antitribu
>are one of the more loyal clans to the sect. "And that's just from what
>I've heard behind closed doors" -PGttS. The Sabbat believe in strength,
>ergo, teaching Thaumaturgy would show loyalty to the sect. IMHO
The Tremere Antitribu are among the least-trusted Sabbat (I believe
only the Serpents of the Light and the Malkavian Antitribu are less
trusted), the Nosferatu's opinions aside. They need as many
advantages as they can, just in case someone catches them at
manipulations (whether they are or aren't). I seriously doubt that
either they or the Tzmisces will give up their knowledge to
the rank and file Sabbat.
>> OTOH, I can certainly see Dark Thaum being widespread within the Sabbat,
>> considering that both stereotypical Infernalists had it, if Infernalism is
>> widespread in the Sabbat as it's supposed to be.
> Again, I refer to Montreal By Night. Out of the 42 Sabbat
>Vampires in Montreal, 3 of them practice Dark Thaum.
This is one of the reasons some of the Sabbat players don't
like the book.
Eric Robert Sylwester
: On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 08:59:20 -0500, Doug Bailey
: >In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
: >including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
: >regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat. My
: >argument is that Sabbat Thaum (i.e. Gift of Morpheus and the Sabbat
: >rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
: >concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
: >Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
: >share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
: >
: >My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
: >majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
: >like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
I like the idea that though the sabbat vampires *with thaumaturgy*
all have a good chance of knowing path of Morpheus and some of the sabbat
rituals, there are "normal" paths and rituals they may be lacking. Just
about any sabbat thaumaturgist worth their salt will want to learn "terror
of the prey" or whatever it's called, but how many thaumaturgists are
going to know Ward vs. Ghouls when there aren't many ghouls IN the sabbat?
Give and take; giving access to sabbat-specific rituals means that sabbat
players (and npc's) won't have the general knowledge available to the
average Camarilla thaumaturgist. Some of the standard rituals may be
"lost" due to lack of use.
A similar thing for paths is a good solution too. Morpheus and
Path of flames may be very well known, but how many sabbat are going to
know Rego Acquam? Probably a much smaller fraction than the Cam.
thaumaturgists who know it.
As to what % of sabbat leeches actually *have* thaumaturgy, well,
that's really a ST question. They have less Tremere, but they have the
Tzimisce and the Serpents of the light- and both groups have a decided
arcane bent. So a case could be made for less, the same %, or more. It's
really up to you.
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
K Kuhn
In article <5aqefs$5...@news.nd.edu>, dliv...@mozart.helios.nd.edu (daniel
livingston) wrote:
<snip>
> ** But what is your reasoning for this opinion? You're
> condemnation of the opponent's view of Thaumaturgy is based on nothing but
> appeal to general stereotypes.
> It is perfectly reasonable to assume also that while it is often
> in one's best interests to keep one's lore secret, it is also a powerful
> bargaining tool. The Tremere of the Sabbat were and still are far fewer
> and consequently far less organized than the Tremere of the Camarilla. The
> organization of the clan in the Camarilla is what keeps Thaumaturgy a
> secret, because of the grave consequences the clan rains down upon any
> member violating the decreed secrecy. Many Tremere might agree that it
> would be in their personal best interest to trade their knowledge of Thaum
> for other vampires' favors, were it not for the strict eye of their clan
> elders.
> Sabbat Tremere have no such strict clan elders, and consequently
> have little reason to withhold sharing their knowledge if the return favor
> is sweet enough (and it always is for knowledge of Thaum). Thus, it can
> easily be argued that Thaumaturgy is relatively commonly accessible in the
> Sabbat.
> So, what is counter *evidence* or *reasoning"? **
Well, from a game perspective, to keep the munchkins from gravitating to
your Sabbat games? It's rather nice if they can pick up Serpentis,
Thaumaturgy, and Chimerstry because all those interesting originally
clan-specific disciplines have been so widely shared in the Sabbat that
they can learn them without having to worry about being owned blood and
mind by the Camarilla Tremere or Followers of Set, or getting conned by
the Ravnos who they asked to teach them, etc.
Rant mode on.
Of course, I still suspect munchkins gravitate to Sabbat games anyway, if
in exchange for playing an evil character in an inherently violent
setting, they get to be able to ignore a lot of the checks that the
Camarilla settings give the ST to use against a munchkin who thinks the
only important thing is how many kewl disciplines he can use to kill every
opponent. After all, diabolism is about the only way to decrease your
generation, and the Sabbat actually encourages it. If a Camarilla
character runs amuk a bit too much, he loses Humanity, and eventually the
ST can take away the player from the character. The right Path, and
that's not a problem. Don't have to worry about being manipulated by
blood bonds, because the Vaulderie breaks them, and the blood bonds of the
Vinculum aren't strong enough to allow such manipulation between pack
mates. Don't have to worry about the elders coming down on you like a ton
of bricks if you break the Masquerade, first of all because the Sabbat
doesn't care, and second of all because the elders don't have the power.
For that matter, while princes and primogen and Justiciars (oh my), have
the power to make most Camarilla neonates do whatever they're told, a
neonate true Sabbat can do whatever he wants, and ignore the elders of the
clan if he feels so inclined, because the Sabbat actually practices what
it preaches about the freedom to do whatever a vampire wants. And
considering that quite a few people are quite willing to argue that the
Sabbat isn't evil, it's simply following a non-human morality and you have
to judge them on that basis, and that the classical munchkin stereotype
*prefers* combat to any other type of roleplaying so an ST throwing lots
of combat at a munchkin isn't exactly teaching them much....
I'm not saying that anyone who runs a Sabbat game is catering to
munchkins, or that anyone who plays a Sabbat character is one. What I am
saying is that, IMO given those attitudes, it's likely to attract
munchkins, and harder for anyone but an experienced ST to find the checks
on munchkins that exist in the Camarilla without saying "Because it's my
game and I told you so, and I don't care what the rulebook says."
But I would still like to know what disadvantages are involved in playing
Sabbat characters that balances out all the nice things Sabbat can ignore
that Camarilla characters can't, such as doing what they're told by their
elders, having to worry about being blood bound, losing their humanity,
the severe problems that arise if they try to diabolize someone and get
caught, etc.
The only responses I got the last time I asked that question was that you
have to play an evil character, and Sabbat games are inherently more
violent. Perhaps I'm just slow, but exactly why is that a disadvantage
from a munchkin's point of view?
Rant mode off.
Todd Leask
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Chris Steenhorst wrote:
> >
> > And by the way, Thaumaturgy was around WAAAY before the
> > Tremere were around.
>
> Thats what lots of people have assumed since Baba Yaga has it,
> but it is unclear if she didn't wake up sometime in the last 1000 years
> and learn it from a Tremere she was stuffing down her gullet.
Actually, in DSoBH, it says that thaumaturgy was developed well before the
creation of the Tremere.
Todd
"You take something of yourself and give it free of charge. You take a
part of yourself and do so because you believe you are connected to
everything else. You become aware of yourself as a part of everything. You
suffer momentarily so that someone else will not have to."
Unknown, Winnebago, Before 1945
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu
In article <5aotrh$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Chris Steenhorst) writes:
|>
|> > rituals) is largely the domain of Tremere Antitribu and Tzimisce. I
|> > concede there are rare instances where other Sabbat will dabble in the
|> > Occult bu that is the exception not the rule, Tremere AT aren't going to
|> > share their secrets with very many, even fellow Sabbat.
|> >
|> > My opponent says Sabbat Thaum is all over the Sabbat, with a super
|> > majority of the members having Thaum (with paths and rituals). I would
|> > like to hear the opinions of others and reasoning behind your positions.
|>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You misspelled "gratuitous piece of crap"
|> many practice Thaumaturgy (not counting the Dark variety), and how many
|> are actually Tremere Antitribu. Here are the results:
|>
|> Number of Sabbat in Montreal: 42
|> Number of Sabbat with Thaumaturgy: 13
|> Number of actual Tremere Antitribu: 2 (One of which is a constant
|> amnesiac)
|>
|> Startling, isn't it? Hope this helps with your argument.
Keep in mind that this is the same book that thinks Kaisyd are part of the Sabbat
and forgot the Assamite clan weakness when it said one turned antitribu.
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
Alec Chang
>Since the Tzmisces outnumber Tremere Antitribu, I think that they're
>more likely responsible for the Thaumaturgy in the Sabbat.
Very likely, but most of the "new" Sabbat rituals(read, ridiculously
unfair little pieces of s**t) like Chill of the Windsaber, are
Tremere-anti only. Not that the Tremere are going to be letting
anyone in on their little secrets, but the Tzimisce's mastery of
Thaumaturgy doesn't half match what the Tremere know.
Anyone can feel free to argue with me, but I'd assume that unless the
Sabbat in question is an elder or Tremere-antitribu, they don't know
enough about Thaumaturgy, even the Sabbat secrets, to posess the
rituals like the Chill.
<snip>
>>> If the Tremere antis only joined in the 1700s, and it sounds like the
>>> Tzimisce didn't like the Tremere joining the Sabbat one bit, I really
>>> can't see the Tremere antis going around teaching everyone their hole
>>> card. According to the Tremere anti writeup, the Tremere antis turned
>>> traitor and joined the Sabbat for their own safety, not ideology. And if
>>> they joined for safety reasons instead of ideology, why should they teach
>>> every other Sabbat this stuff? After all, if the other clans are as good
>>> at Thaum as the Tremere, there isn't the need to keep the Tremere antis
>><<snip>>
>
>> From the point of view of Nosferatu Antitribu, Tremere Antitribu
>>are one of the more loyal clans to the sect. "And that's just from what
>>I've heard behind closed doors" -PGttS. The Sabbat believe in strength,
>>ergo, teaching Thaumaturgy would show loyalty to the sect. IMHO
>
>The Tremere Antitribu are among the least-trusted Sabbat (I believe
>only the Serpents of the Light and the Malkavian Antitribu are less
>trusted), the Nosferatu's opinions aside. They need as many
>advantages as they can, just in case someone catches them at
>manipulations (whether they are or aren't). I seriously doubt that
>either they or the Tzmisces will give up their knowledge to
>the rank and file Sabbat.
Basic Path of Blood wouldn't be that much of a big deal. Any of the
really good paths, however, would be "classified", as would the really
nasty rituals. I honestly doubt that anyone would care about most of
Path of Blood; the Tremere fanatics in my area have always despised it
compared to the other (overpowered) paths.
>>> OTOH, I can certainly see Dark Thaum being widespread within the Sabbat,
>>> considering that both stereotypical Infernalists had it, if Infernalism is
>>> widespread in the Sabbat as it's supposed to be.
>
>> Again, I refer to Montreal By Night. Out of the 42 Sabbat
>>Vampires in Montreal, 3 of them practice Dark Thaum.
>
>This is one of the reasons some of the Sabbat players don't
>like the book.
>
Heck, if anything, I'd think that 3 of 42 is too _many_ Sabbat with
Dark Thaum. Your average Sabbat may not be brilliant, but the
Inquisitors can scare the un-living sentience out of almost anyone,
and most sentient Sabbat wouldn't sell themselves into slavery of any
kind, even if it did make them more powerful.
Of course, that's just my perspective. Feel free to disagree.
Alec Chang
Anthony BT Boyd
Another important factor to condsider when drawing statistics from
Montreal By Night is that it makes no claim to be a stereotypical Sabbat
city. It goes to some length to make it clear that Montreal is a city of
scholars... The majoritry of Sabbat are not in this category.
..............................................................................
==============================================================================
Lucifer: Poor Clay! And thou pretendest to be wretched! Thou!
Cain : I am: - and thou with all thy might, what art thou?
Lucifer: One who aspired to be what made thee, and would not
have made thee what thou art.
Cain : Ah! Thou look'st almost a god; and--
Lucifer: I am none:
and having fail'd to be one, would be nought but what
I am. He conquered; let him reign!
"Cain: A Mystery" - George Gordon, Lord Byron
==============================================================================
..............................................................................
Anthony Boyd ag...@chebucto.ns.ca Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
The Baron Samedi
>
>>>> OTOH, I can certainly see Dark Thaum being widespread within the Sabbat,
>>>> considering that both stereotypical Infernalists had it, if Infernalism is
>>>> widespread in the Sabbat as it's supposed to be.
>>
>>> Again, I refer to Montreal By Night. Out of the 42 Sabbat
>>>Vampires in Montreal, 3 of them practice Dark Thaum.
>>
>>This is one of the reasons some of the Sabbat players don't
>>like the book.
>>
>Heck, if anything, I'd think that 3 of 42 is too _many_ Sabbat with
>Dark Thaum. Your average Sabbat may not be brilliant, but the
>Inquisitors can scare the un-living sentience out of almost anyone,
>and most sentient Sabbat wouldn't sell themselves into slavery of any
>kind, even if it did make them more powerful.
well, looking at the other book with a Sabbat city, the Chaos Factor,
we have Dark Thaumaturgy in short supply, but over half the city is
evil revelations path. of the ones that arn't, several are
infilatrators from non-Sabbat clans. 14 Kindred described, I think 8
on ER, of the remaining 6, 2 infiltrators from the Giovanni or samedi.
In MbN, we have 3 on ER, and 2 with a direct connection, even if they
are not on the path itself, out of 42.
Now, that makes Infernalism as a major factor in 2 of 2 Sabbat
described citys. I think there is a message there.
>
>Of course, that's just my perspective. Feel free to disagree.
>
>Alec Chang
>
ditto
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
dliv...@mozart.helios.nd.edu (daniel livingston) wrote:
> ** But what is your reasoning for this opinion? You're
>condemnation of the opponent's view of Thaumaturgy is based on nothing but
>appeal to general stereotypes.
Not quite. I said that the Tremere Antitribu and the Tzmisces don't
give up trade secrets. You don't see the Gangrel giving out Protean,
or the Serpents giving up Serpentis. The Lasombra don't offer
Obtenebration. I don't see why these two clans would be an exception.
In other words, make sure it's a stereotype and not basic logic before
you say otherwise.
> It is perfectly reasonable to assume also that while it is often
>in one's best interests to keep one's lore secret, it is also a powerful
>bargaining tool.
Which means it should be used extremely rarely. Otherwise,
the Tremere Antitribu would have been killed by now (their
thaumaturgy is the only thing keeping them around).
>The Tremere of the Sabbat were and still are far fewer
>and consequently far less organized than the Tremere of the Camarilla.
That's not necessarily true. Small size tends to favor organization;
it's easier to control a hundred people than a thousand.
>The organization of the clan in the Camarilla is what keeps Thaumaturgy a
>secret, because of the grave consequences the clan rains down upon any
>member violating the decreed secrecy. Many Tremere might agree that it
>would be in their personal best interest to trade their knowledge of Thaum
>for other vampires' favors, were it not for the strict eye of their clan
>elders.
I seriously doubt that. The Tremere in general LIKE secrecy. The
only Tremere likely to offer up their clan discipline are extremely
young childer.
> Sabbat Tremere have no such strict clan elders,
Tell that to Goratrix.
>and consequently have little reason to withhold sharing their knowledge if the return favor
>is sweet enough (and it always is for knowledge of Thaum). Thus, it can
>easily be argued that Thaumaturgy is relatively commonly accessible in the
>Sabbat.
No, your own argument fails on its own. If Thaumaturgy were freely
offered, not only would the Tremere Antitribu be destroyed (nobody
trusts them anyway, and the Tzmisce would more than likely kill
the Tremere who tried this), but a goodly portion of the Tzmisce power
would be compromised. I'm not ruling out the occasional trade (hence
some members of certain paths would and should have access to
such knowledge), but it's not super-common, or even common in the
Sabbat.
> So, what is counter *evidence* or *reasoning"? **
Logic? The assumption that the Tremere and Tzmisce don't recruit from
complete and utter morons?
Anthony BT Boyd
ANother important factor in viewing the history of Thaumaturgy is the
difference between paths and rituals. The Tremere cannot truthfully
claim to have discovered Thaumaturgy but they can take full credit for
codifying and developing all of the powers of Vampiric Hedge Magic and
thereby creating teh "Discipline" of Thaumaturgy. Prior to this systmatic
approach to magic use by vampires The Paths would be rareer than rare or
even non-existent. Rituals would be personal and endlessly reinvented by
individual Thaumaturgists. With the Tremere a group of dedicated,
long-lived Magickal scholars got to focus their minds on a much simpler
form of magic with teh backing of all their speicalized knowledge and
systems of learning. The printed rituals in V:TM are the stock and trade
of any Tremere and the stuff they are willing to trade to Ritual starved
vampires from other Clans. The cool stuff they keep to themselves.
The Sabbat would be no different but the Tremere in the Sabbat have a
more precarious position politically and so must make less-profitable trades.
The Paths are the thing that really set Tremere Thaumaturgists apart
from the others.
Alec Chang
I hate to say it, but I've played with more than my fair share of
munchkins in the last few years, and I've found that _very little_
teaches them anything at all. Most of them simply aren't interested
in doing anything else, the rest are incapable of it.
>I'm not saying that anyone who runs a Sabbat game is catering to
>munchkins, or that anyone who plays a Sabbat character is one. What I am
>saying is that, IMO given those attitudes, it's likely to attract
>munchkins, and harder for anyone but an experienced ST to find the checks
>on munchkins that exist in the Camarilla without saying "Because it's my
>game and I told you so, and I don't care what the rulebook says."
Well, this might be a bit contrived, but if you're running a Sabbat
game, there is effectively nothing stopping a very powerful elder from
snuffing the Munchkin's character like a gnat because he displeased
him with his actions. Your average Sabbat elder can intimidate,
destroy, and anihilate his underlings, and as long as no one complains
to someone who has more authority(usually an unlikely occurence, since
the people with more power don't give a damn about what other people
do except as it relates to their little power games), nobody can
really do a damn thing about it.
Of course, voiding rolls and telling a Munchkin "You're taking two
levels of aggravated damage each turn from the Ward vs. Kindred you're
pressed face-down against" ain't exactly fair in game terms, but
having a munchkin in the game ain't fair to anyone else, either.
>But I would still like to know what disadvantages are involved in playing
>Sabbat characters that balances out all the nice things Sabbat can ignore
>that Camarilla characters can't, such as doing what they're told by their
>elders, having to worry about being blood bound, losing their humanity,
>the severe problems that arise if they try to diabolize someone and get
>caught, etc.
The Sabbat demands complete loyalty, and it's just as bad as the
Cammies with intrigue. Your average Sabbat is just as much of a pawn
as your Cammie Neonate, but they usually aren't smart enough to
notice. Sabbat characters also die at an appalling rate; if you can
toss Munchkin problems at the Munchkin(like a vampiric disease, which
would cause him to be staked and left out for the sun, since it can't
be cured...), the character should be dead fairly quickly. Is there
any real incentive for munchkins to tone things down? Well, the
Lasombra look very unkindly to anyone else taking their perogative of
Diablerie....
Anyway, you get the idea. Creativity and bending the rules a bit
doesn't hurt in slapping the Munchies into line.
>The only responses I got the last time I asked that question was that you
>have to play an evil character, and Sabbat games are inherently more
>violent. Perhaps I'm just slow, but exactly why is that a disadvantage
>from a munchkin's point of view?
Well, their favorite overpowered characters can get hit in the face
with White Phosphorus Grenades and instantaneously combust.....
Alec Chang
Jeff Barr-David
On the subject of Sabbat Thaumaturgy.
One thing that had me rather confused was the Tzimisce Clanbook. The
reason being that almost every other page went on and on about how great
at Thau the clan is and that Thau is NOT one of their clan Disciplines.
This is what I would call a large discrepancy. I don't understand why
they have Animalism, considering the only mention of this was in the
creation of war ghouls. It would have been more consistant with previous
publications if Tzimisce had Thaumaturgy instead of Animalism. Was it
not from a Tzimisce Elder that the Tremere stole both vampirism and
Thaumaturgy?
--
**** Mater tua caligas gerit. ****
Ian Turner
jbu...@gemini.kent.edu wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that this is the same book that thinks Kaisyd are part of
> the Sabbat
Which they ARE (by circumstance, not choice). And even if they
weren't, then certainly ONE Kiasyd joining the Sabbat wouldn't be the
end of Creation, they seem to have a Daughter of Cacophony, a Samedi and
a Gargoyle as well. (But no Blood Brothers, which I like)
> and forgot the Assamite clan weakness when it said one turned
> antitribu.
Officially, the Antitribu simply CHOSE not to abide by the
treaty and did not accept the Tremere Curse. If one accepts that
hogwash, then ANY Assamite AT ANY TIME could simply say 'f*ck this,'
abandon his Clan honor and be free from the Curse.
Yes it is garba-hey, and I (sensibly I think) do not use it
in my game assuming that escaping a Clan-wide Curse is just a twee bit
harder than saying "Gee, this sucks, I quit." but there it is.
I rule that the Unconquered ones are descended from an Assamite
that left the plane for either the Umbra or the Shadowlands (using Black
Hand allies who are known to have visited both places) and waited out
the casting of the spell, which DID affect all Kindred in the world at
that time, whether they liked it or not! That Assamite and it's childer
are free from the Curse, but the Old Man didn't approve of that ones
fleeing an agreement that, though bitter, was honorable. Otherwise I
could see it being in Assamite character to simply forbid Siring to the
Cursed and in a relatively brief time the Clan would be un-Cursed...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Todd Leask wrote:
>
> Actually, in DSoBH, it says that thaumaturgy was developed well before
> the creation of the Tremere.
Yeah DSotBH says a lot of things... Some of them are usable.
But like all WW products (especially Mage) 'history' is subjective and
there are few 'facts' to be found. Pick the ones you like, although it
seems odd that (arguably) the most powerful Discipline around was not
popular enough to attract any Clan before the Tremere.
Love the Winnebago quote, BTW!
Ian Turner.
Anthony BT Boyd
My understanding of the curse placed on the Assamites has always been
that the ritual curse was placed on the Assamites who surrendered rather
than be destroyed. A splinter group of Assamites refused to come to the
signing of the Convention of Thorns and so remained, in their eyes,
"Unconquered."
Those who actually viewed their honor as all-important endured the Tremere
curse like true warriors and persist despite its deep-rooted effect on their
unlives. This is not all that unusual an attitude for such a sect to
engender. The Unconquered however were more interested in maintaining
their pride and so get to keep the original "clan weakness" of needing to
consume Vitae. While these rebels have the respect and amusement of the
Assamite elders they do violate many of the traditional codes of the Clan
and sect from which they sprang in defiance. It is interesting to note
that in an act planned to display committment to an ideal they found
themselves required to turn away from much of what they desried to protect.
Essentially, my point is that the Tremere curse was placed on the
Assamites who attended the Convention of Thorns and is passed through the
embrace to their childer. Those who chose to split from the Clan and
becoem the Unconquered were not there to receive this curse. Thaumaturgy
is pretty damn cool but their are reasonable limits...
Ian Turner
Anthony BT Boyd wrote:
(Stuff about the Assamite Curse snipt)
That seems to summarize the official view quite clearly. But I
still don't have to like it...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Anthony BT Boyd wrote:
Nice reply! I may not agree with all of it but I can damn sure
respect it! Then again I DO agree with most of it, in that some ragged
bits of Thaumaturgy were around before the Tremere but that it did not
come into its own as a Discipline until the Tremere bought it out in
a hostile takeover.
Ian Turner.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>jbu...@gemini.kent.edu wrote:
>>
>> Keep in mind that this is the same book that thinks Kaisyd are part of
>> the Sabbat
> Which they ARE (by circumstance, not choice).
They are not. They prefer relations to the Sabbat, but are not
members.
>And even if they weren't, then certainly ONE Kiasyd joining the Sabbat
>wouldn't be the end of Creation, they seem to have a Daughter
>of Cacophony, a Samedi and a Gargoyle as well. (But no Blood Brothers, which I like)
Kiasyd don't mesh well with the Sabbat. Too few true scholars, too
many book-burners. Daughters, Samedi, and esp. Gargoyles are
less choosey.
Loki
One day, it occurred to "Sidewinder" <mtst...@dpcmail.dukepower.com>
to write:
>K Kuhn <kkn...@ecity.net> wrote in article <kknolte-
>
>> > In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
>> > including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
>> > regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat
>> There's also the argument that the Tzimisce at least were bound to have
>> it, and they taught it to everyone else. Against that, there is that
>> quote in the PGttS from the Tremere, "They learn very quickly. For that
>> reason, we must be careful what we teach them." regarding the Tzimisce,
>> which argues that what thaum the Tzimisce had before the Tremere came by
>> was fairly limited if they had it at all. (Though judging from what I've
>> seen posted by Tzimisce players, they'll tell you that Tzimisce are as
>> good at Thaum as Tremere, so that might depend on the ST. Just out of
>> curiousity, does your opponent want to be Tzimisce?).
>
>No reason that both the Tzimisce and the Tremere can't both know
>thaumaturgy, and both know it well. They just know different versions &
>paths. Part of what makes the Tremere so valuable to the the Sabbat is
>the knowledge they bring, and yes if they were to teach it to too many
>other clans then their presence would not be nearly so important. So the
>majority of the Sabbat would have learned their thaumaturgy from the
>Tzimisce, who in turn would not have released their best stuff. So the
>Tzimisce try to learn as much of the Tremere thaumaturgy to maintian
>their current position in the Sabbat, while the Tremere take what they
>know, spreading only a little at a time, and add to that what the Tzimisce
>have let leek out. Both sides want what the other knows and does their
>best to prevent their secrets from spreading....
Why do people always want the Tzimisce to obsess over Thaumaturgy?
Perhaps some of them would know it. But, after all, it's mainly a
Tremere art.
And, historically, the Tzimisce really haven't* been admirers of the
Tremere.
I think a lot of them would be more interested in Necromancy,
particularly among the necronomists.
You want some Thaumaturgy, go talk to a Serpent of the Light. Or maybe
even an Assamite.
Although, there are probably more than a few Tzimisce practicing Dark
Thaumaturgy. But that wasn't what you really meant, was it? :)
Loki --- Brynjolfr --- Redvision
f3...@unb.ca --- redv...@geocities.com --- d_fl...@husky1.stmarys.ca
Geek Code-> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5742/#Geek
Goth Code-> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5742/#Goth
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Jeff Barr-David <jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
>On the subject of Sabbat Thaumaturgy.
>One thing that had me rather confused was the Tzimisce Clanbook. The
>reason being that almost every other page went on and on about how great
>at Thau the clan is and that Thau is NOT one of their clan Disciplines.
>This is what I would call a large discrepancy. I don't understand why
>they have Animalism, considering the only mention of this was in the
>creation of war ghouls. It would have been more consistant with previous
>publications if Tzimisce had Thaumaturgy instead of Animalism.
The Tzmisces are the primary source of ghouls in the Sabbat. While
many of the elders do indeed have high level Thaum, the rank and file
do not.
>Was it not from a Tzimisce Elder that the Tremere stole both vampirism and
>Thaumaturgy?
It was not. The Tremere developed their versions of Thaumaturgy on
their own.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) wrote:
>Basic Path of Blood wouldn't be that much of a big deal. Any of the
>really good paths, however, would be "classified", as would the really
>nasty rituals. I honestly doubt that anyone would care about most of
>Path of Blood; the Tremere fanatics in my area have always despised it
>compared to the other (overpowered) paths.
Isn't that the path where beginners can use somebody else's blood
to bind said donor into service? Speaks strongly against the Sabbat,
and the T-As would probably prefer the rest of the sect forget that
such knowledge is common among the warlocks.
K Kuhn
> jbu...@gemini.kent.edu wrote:
> >
> > Keep in mind that this is the same book that thinks Kaisyd are part of
> > the Sabbat
>
> Which they ARE (by circumstance, not choice).
It is possible to be an independant clan, and not join the Sabbat OR the
Camarilla.
And even if they
> weren't, then certainly ONE Kiasyd joining the Sabbat wouldn't be the
> end of Creation, they seem to have a Daughter of Cacophony, a Samedi and
> a Gargoyle as well. (But no Blood Brothers, which I like)
The Kiasyd bloodline description originally showed up in the SHttS,
agreed. However, the founder abandoned the original Lasombra clan quite a
few centuries before the Sabbat was founded, and is apparently now the
prince of Strasbourg, not the archbishop.
Two, in the stereotypes section is "The Sabbat - The clan of our creation
leads these beasts and sought our vitae when they went to war with the
Camarilla. We taught them better." vs. "The Kiasyd should be avoided at
all costs. Behind their polite facades are mad beasts, ready to twist
your reality into any shape they desire - Paulo, Lasombra priest." This,
to me, does not exactly indicate friendly relations between the Sabbat
Lasombra and the Kiasyd in general.
Three, "With the exception of this incident [happened in the late Middle
Ages], Kiasyd are known to be very passive." Doesn't exactly sound like
someone who would find Sabbat ways comfortable, does it?
Four, the Kiasyd in the short plot idea in the back of the SHttS was the
target of a War Party by a group of Sabbat, not a member of the Sabbat, so
it doesn't sound like they were intended to be part of the Sabbat at all.
As to the Kiasyd in MbN, I was quite disappointed in her. She came off
sounding like your basic Tzimisce, and considering that her best
disciplines were Auspex, Dominate, and Mytheceria, I couldn't help
wondering if she was originally supposed to be Old Clan Tzimisce, and the
writer decided during the review that Mytheceria was a cooler discipline
than Animalism. Besides, she's the leader of a pack which fights "when
it's asked to, and sometimes when it's not." Does the "sometimes when
it's not" really sound like the reaction of a member of a bloodline that's
*known* to be very passive? After all, if the Kindred only know of one
incident in the bloodline's history of about 1600 years when any Kiasyd
started a fight, according to the clan writeup, and the Kiasyd in MbN is
supposed to be sane, you have to wonder if the guy actually bothered to
read the description at all beyond the discipline. And if Kiasyd
etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live in a city with
another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that seriously likes its
solitude - and pack life probably does not encourage that much.
Perhaps one Kiasyd in the Sabbat isn't the end of the world. But on the
other hand, exactly how many Kiasyd *are* there in the world, and why
would they stay in it if the Sabbat as a whole is exceedingly violent? If
the bloodline has only started a fight once in history, and seems to
prefer to avoid it when possible, it seems like the fae or underworld
blood gave them an instinct against starting violence that they find
almost impossible to overcome. Or else there's only two or three of them,
which might be a small enough clan that you could argue they all have very
similar views on pacifism.
<snip>
J.W.Thomas
In article <32D101...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>Chris Steenhorst wrote:
>>
>> And by the way, Thaumaturgy was around WAAAY before the
>> Tremere were around.
>
> Thats what lots of people have assumed since Baba Yaga has it,
>but it is unclear if she didn't wake up sometime in the last 1000 years
>and learn it from a Tremere she was stuffing down her gullet.
>basic Thaumaturgy (which could be how some early Tzimisce and Black
>Hand got it), but not, it seems as a TEACHABLE Discipline, just as cool
>stuff that no one else could do. The Tremere may not have INVENTED
>Thaumaturgy, but they did made it into a real Discipline.
>
'dark Awakening' in the Book of Nod.
Certainly, many of the older Vampires have some Thraum powers, for example
Baba yaga (BTW how did she learn Thraum 9 from eating a tremere and then
going back into Torpor?)
Tremere made Thraum a CLAN discipline and teach it to neonates, something
no other clan does...thats why its special to them
CHOPPER The god is absent
ChOpPeR His dead leaves are piling
cHoPpEr And all is deserted
chopper -Basho
Ian Turner
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
>
> They are not. They prefer relations to the Sabbat, but are not
> members.
Doh! 'The Kiasyd are not members of any sect, blah blah, and
the bloodline has more contact with the Sabbat than any other group.'
Storyteller's Handbook to the Sabbat p. 37.
I bow to your wisdom...
> Kiasyd don't mesh well with the Sabbat. Too few true scholars, too
> many book-burners. Daughters, Samedi, and esp. Gargoyles are
> less choosey.
True, but the Librarians and the Scholars do seem to be the
sorts of atypical packs that a Kiasyd would find acceptable. They would
obviously NOT do well in the The Widows...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
J.W.Thomas wrote:
>
> Thraumaturgy is HINTED at as the last discipline Caine gained in his
> 'dark Awakening' in the Book of Nod.
And like the bit I mentioned about the Embracing of Mages,
Lilith seems to fit that bill...
> Certainly, many of the older Vampires have some Thraum powers, for
> example Baba yaga (BTW how did she learn Thraum 9 from eating a
> tremere and then going back into Torpor?)
A Tremere? There were doubtless several Chantries beyond the
Carpathians and well into Rodina. She may have had a smorgasboard
waiting for her... It is still only a theory, but if she was a Mage in
life, which some sources imply quite strongly, she may have developed it
from her former Magicks just as the Tremere did later.
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
K Kuhn wrote:
>
> It is possible to be an independant clan, and not join the Sabbat OR
> the Camarilla.
And I have recently noted that they are independent!
> As to the Kiasyd in MbN, I was quite disappointed in her. She came
> off sounding like your basic Tzimisce, and considering that her best
> disciplines were Auspex, Dominate, and Mytheceria, I couldn't help
> wondering if she was originally supposed to be Old Clan Tzimisce, and
> the writer decided during the review that Mytheceria was a cooler
> discipline than Animalism.
That seems to happen far too often. (And besides Animalism
rocks if used well, I hear that it even has levels beyond the 2nd which
is as far as I ever get...)
> After all, if the Kindred only know of one incident in the bloodline's
> history of about 1600 years when any Kiasyd started a fight, according
> to the clan writeup, and the Kiasyd in MbN is supposed to be sane, you
> have to wonder if the guy actually bothered to read the description at
> all beyond the discipline.
Well, yeah only one incident in 1600 years of them taking over
an *entire city* by force! Strange the more active Samedi, Daughters,
etc as well as the extremely violent Blood Brothers and Baali are never
mentioned as conquering a city...
Of course the quotes about the Sabbat being 'taught better'
implies something more than harsh language was required (or, in the case
of Riddle Phantastique, harsh language may have been enough...), and the
Sabbat stereotype about them being monsters waiting to twist your
reality suggests a bit of experience with them in less than
amicable surroundings.
> And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
> in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
> seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
> encourage that much.
Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
> Perhaps one Kiasyd in the Sabbat isn't the end of the world. But on
> the other hand, exactly how many Kiasyd *are* there in the world, and
> why would they stay in it if the Sabbat as a whole is exceedingly
> violent?
Three total outside of Europe!
> If the bloodline has only started a fight once in history, and seems
> to prefer to avoid it when possible, it seems like the fae or
> underworld blood gave them an instinct against starting violence that
> they find almost impossible to overcome. Or else there's only two or
> three of them, which might be a small enough clan that you could argue
> they all have very similar views on pacifism.
Debatable. But I do agree that the main incident of the
city-taking was a reflection of their extreme views on privacy. It is
easiest to attain such privacy by inviting everyone else to depart! I
think that most of them simply find violence to be distasteful and
beneath them. It may actually be that the Fae blood gets strangely
agitated if they get too exciting and they act somewhat giddy and weird
as the fae blood begins to act upon them. After all, an intrusion on
their privacy is a surprise and can make them frenzy as the blood
swirls. Perhaps the only violence that they can stand is carefully
planned in advance and has few surprises to agitate their sensitive
blood, which sometimes seems to have a life of its own...
Just a thought.
Ian Turner.
The Baron Samedi
>
>> Kiasyd don't mesh well with the Sabbat. Too few true scholars, too
>> many book-burners. Daughters, Samedi, and esp. Gargoyles are
>> less choosey.
Actually, the only Sabbat Samedi was working aginst the sect, and in
fact, indicated the bloodline opposed their ideals.
I don't count Toy in this case...he probobly does not know what a
Samedi is. What his his Gen anyway? I keep Geneologies for the
Samedi and for the Cappadocians, but his Gen is unlisted...
As for the DoC, one Sabbat DoC was a DoC Antitibu, one is not.
course, the DoCA was into heavy metal....
>
> True, but the Librarians and the Scholars do seem to be the
>sorts of atypical packs that a Kiasyd would find acceptable. They would
>obviously NOT do well in the The Widows...
>
> Ian Turner.
>
I thought one of them liked the Widows, but I may be getting them
mixed up with someone else.
K Kuhn
In article <32D521...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
<snip>
> That seems to happen far too often. (And besides Animalism
> rocks if used well, I hear that it even has levels beyond the 2nd which
> is as far as I ever get...)
>
Hey, 2nd by itself is quite useful. Next time you want to drive a
Toreador poseur crazy, start summoning rats (with their fleas) to his
party, and have them jump in the blood bowl. Or if V:tDA, summon a few of
the pigs that wander around any medieval city.
<snip>
> Well, yeah only one incident in 1600 years of them taking over
> an *entire city* by force! Strange the more active Samedi, Daughters,
> etc as well as the extremely violent Blood Brothers and Baali are never
> mentioned as conquering a city...
> Of course the quotes about the Sabbat being 'taught better'
> implies something more than harsh language was required (or, in the case
> of Riddle Phantastique, harsh language may have been enough...), and the
> Sabbat stereotype about them being monsters waiting to twist your
> reality suggests a bit of experience with them in less than
> amicable surroundings.
Not necessarily, if you remember their clan disciplines. The ones who
like necromancy probably live in haunts - and a few old wraiths who don't
want their fetters messed with, much less their haunts, can get quite
nasty if the haunt is invaded. As to the ones who prefer changelings (if
every Kiasyd is supposed to "always construct vast underground galleries
full of unusual stonework of their own design," they might make fairly
good Dreamers for some fae, too - except of course for the one in MbN, who
has no ability at all in sculpture, and her only artistic ability is Music
1.), can you imagine a better way to twist an invader's reality, if the
puny mortal the Sabbat just sunk his fangs in for a brief suck is suddenly
8 ft tall, blue, with horns, and now has this flaming axe in his hands
that is being aimed straight at him? Since most vampires aren't supposed
to know anything about the fae or the Dreaming, the Sabbat would probably
assume it was the doing of the Kiasyd. (The Sabbat does have this vampire
superiority complex - there's no way a mortal could possibly affect them
like that, and it's also fairly obvious the Sabbat really doesn't care
about what any ghosts they might create could do to them, considering the
types of games they condone.) So, it might not be that the Kiasyd is
necessarily aggressive, but simply that their allies are, and the allies
teach the invaders the importance of being polite. Which could explain
Strasbourg as well - if the Ventrue prince of the time annoyed the local
fae enough, and the fae had gotten an oath from the Kiasyd founder to aid
them against their foes, then it wasn't that he was bloodthirsty, but
simply that he didn't think he really had a choice, assuming that the
Kiasyd are close enough to the Dreaming to know that oathbreaking is not a
good idea.
>
> > And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
> > in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
> > seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
> > encourage that much.
>
> Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
> with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
> beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
> and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
> of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
> way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
>
Well, the Sidhe are "Tall and lean...with pointed ears, angular features,
and a commanding gaze." The Kiasyd almost sound like parodies of the
Sidhe, since they're even taller, even skinnier, and have exceedingly
angular features, with completely black eyes - although the eyes sound
more like a Harbinger's than a Sidhe's. If the Sidhe are inhumanly
beautiful, then presumably it's possible that sometimes the Kiasyd parody
would be close enough to the Sidhe for mortals to be affected.
<snip>
> > If the bloodline has only started a fight once in history, and seems
> > to prefer to avoid it when possible, it seems like the fae or
> > underworld blood gave them an instinct against starting violence that
> > they find almost impossible to overcome. Or else there's only two or
> > three of them, which might be a small enough clan that you could argue
> > they all have very similar views on pacifism.
>
> Debatable. But I do agree that the main incident of the
> city-taking was a reflection of their extreme views on privacy. It is
> easiest to attain such privacy by inviting everyone else to depart! I
> think that most of them simply find violence to be distasteful and
> beneath them. It may actually be that the Fae blood gets strangely
> agitated if they get too exciting and they act somewhat giddy and weird
> as the fae blood begins to act upon them. After all, an intrusion on
> their privacy is a surprise and can make them frenzy as the blood
> swirls. Perhaps the only violence that they can stand is carefully
> planned in advance and has few surprises to agitate their sensitive
> blood, which sometimes seems to have a life of its own...
>
> Just a thought.
An interesting one. Although if they're supposed to be extremely
passionate despite never getting angry, they're probably passionate enough
already, they just focus it on ideas and sculpture (passion for the
wraiths, creativity for the fae?). And I really suspect that Strasbourg
was more because the local fae managed to get a Dreaming-enforced oath out
of the founder that he felt he had to follow, not really privacy - princes
don't have it. And if there's only one Kiasyd (and occasionally a childe
for a while) living in a city as their etiquette demands, there isn't
going to be a city full of Kiasyd and no one else - more likely just
Marconius, and quite possibly he's simply a figurehead for the city's
wraiths and faes. The wraiths (and maybe sluaghs) would make great spies
on the rest of the Kindred population, and with fae allies who want to
keep whatever happened with the Ventrue from happening again, he's not
going to be challenged very much after the fae make a few examples, even
if he never emerges from his library or knows what happened to the
vampire.
>
> Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
K Kuhn wrote:
>
> Hey, 2nd by itself is quite useful. Next time you want to drive a
> Toreador poseur crazy, start summoning rats (with their fleas) to his
> party, and have them jump in the blood bowl. Or if V:tDA, summon a
> few of the pigs that wander around any medieval city.
Ventrue pissing you off? Hit him where it hurts, destroy his
property values by Beckoning half the roaches in the city to a building
he owns (throw a corpse down the air ducts, wouldn't want the little
darlings to go hungry). Works equally well on private Havens, Toreador
Galleria (avoid doing this in Elysia, it's just NOT DONE, darling!) or
Tremere Chantries! Get that Board of Health right in there where do not
belong with an anonymous phone-call! Later, purchase the building which
the original owners have had to let go cheap. Beckon any remaining
roaches out and into a handy ship leaving for Bangladesh in an hour...
> Which could explain Strasbourg as well - if the Ventrue prince of the
> time annoyed the local fae enough, and the fae had gotten an oath from
> the Kiasyd founder to aid them against their foes, then it wasn't that
> he was bloodthirsty, but simply that he didn't think he really had a
> choice, assuming that the Kiasyd are close enough to the Dreaming to
> know that oathbreaking is not a good idea.
I think he just liked the city and wanted to be alone in
it. Maybe it WAS a hotbed of Wraith and / or Changeling activity and
the Kindred driven out were not actually that sad to move on the greener
pastures anyway...
> An interesting one. Although if they're supposed to be extremely
> passionate despite never getting angry, they're probably passionate
> enough already, they just focus it on ideas and sculpture (passion for
> the wraiths, creativity for the fae?).
The passion and uncontrollable muse could be all the excess
energy the Fae blood gives them when they are 'normal,' don't even think
about overstimulating one!
> And if there's only one Kiasyd (and occasionally a childe for a while)
> living in a city as their etiquette demands, there isn't going to be a
> city full of Kiasyd and no one else - more likely just Marconius, and
> quite possibly he's simply a figurehead for the city's wraiths and
> faes. The wraiths (and maybe sluaghs) would make great spies on the
> rest of the Kindred population, and with fae allies who want to keep
> whatever happened with the Ventrue from happening again, he's not
> going to be challenged very much after the fae make a few examples,
> even if he never emerges from his library or knows what happened to
> the vampire.
I don't think that Marconius is a pawn. More likely he simply
uses his wraith allies (and maybe a Sluagh or two) to keep abreast of
any Kindred entering the city and when he finds out about it he sends
some 'friends' to convince the intruder to make travelling plans...
Haunted and Fae Plagued are two possibilities that he can inflict
without ever going anywhere near the intruding Kindred!
I just think that Marconius booted everyone out of Strasbourg
and (except for the rare occasions when he invites someone to visit or
Sires a Childe) is alone in the city but for his non-Kindred allies.
Ian Turner.
Robert Gene Mayberry
>Why do people always want the Tzimisce to obsess over Thaumaturgy?
Because every description of the Tzimisce indicates that they are very
interested by it.
>Perhaps some of them would know it. But, after all, it's mainly a
>Tremere art.
>And, historically, the Tzimisce really haven't* been admirers of the
>Tremere.
Thaumaturgy was around long before the birth of the Tremere antediluvian.
While the mightiest of every clan knew some of its ways (such as Baba
Yaga, Cret, Meneleus and others) it was the Tzimisce who were its
undisputed masters. That is, they were until the rise of Clan Tremere.
While to this day, the practical and rationalistic approach of the Tremere
has made them mighty, the Tzimisce are still quite proficient, especially
in Thaumaturgy as a spiritual and pseudoreligious art. For this reason,
and its important role in Tzimisce ideology, the Tzimisce consider
Thaumaturgy part of their heritage, and guard its secrets jealously.
>I think a lot of them would be more interested in Necromancy,
>particularly among the necronomists.
They are. However, many prefer Thaumaturgy for its flexibility and for
the fact that it is more readily available. While the Kiasyd and Nagaraja
have been practicing this art for thousands of years, they are very, very
rare, and their powers are not often taught to outsiders.
>You want some Thaumaturgy, go talk to a Serpent of the Light. Or maybe
>even an Assamite.
Very few munafiqun will ever encounter an Assamite sorcerer. Those who do
had best beware, for the Rafiq would have to be potent enough in battle
and in blood to risk leaving Assamite holdings. As for the Settites, they
practice Undead Sorcery for the same reasons as the Tzimisce, though both
would be loathe to admit it. But the Serpents of the Light have developed
their own branch; little is inherited from Set's experiments. More is
drawn from the Tzimisce and Tremere and more still from the houngans from
whom they were drawn.
>Although, there are probably more than a few Tzimisce practicing Dark
>Thaumaturgy. But that wasn't what you really meant, was it? :)
;)
Rob
--
Robert Mayberry
Student of Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech
gt8...@prism.gatech.edu "Never underestimate the power of
tanz...@r39h29.res.gatech.edu human stupidity" R.A. Heinlein
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
> Well, yeah only one incident in 1600 years of them taking over
>an *entire city* by force! Strange the more active Samedi, Daughters,
>etc as well as the extremely violent Blood Brothers and Baali are never
>mentioned as conquering a city...
The Samedi have a plan. The Daughters don't seem to care about
mundane concerns. The Blood Brothers are alien. The Baali are
believed extinct, and they like that just fine.
> Of course the quotes about the Sabbat being 'taught better'
>implies something more than harsh language was required (or, in the case
>of Riddle Phantastique, harsh language may have been enough...), and the
>Sabbat stereotype about them being monsters waiting to twist your
>reality suggests a bit of experience with them in less than
>amicable surroundings.
More than likely, one or two was targeted for recruitment.
>> And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
>> in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
>> seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
>> encourage that much.
> Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
>with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
>beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
>and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
>of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
>way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
Don't forget the angular features. Mmm.
>> If the bloodline has only started a fight once in history, and seems
>> to prefer to avoid it when possible, it seems like the fae or
>> underworld blood gave them an instinct against starting violence that
>> they find almost impossible to overcome. Or else there's only two or
>> three of them, which might be a small enough clan that you could argue
>> they all have very similar views on pacifism.
> Debatable. But I do agree that the main incident of the
>city-taking was a reflection of their extreme views on privacy. It is
>easiest to attain such privacy by inviting everyone else to depart! I
>think that most of them simply find violence to be distasteful and
>beneath them. It may actually be that the Fae blood gets strangely
>agitated if they get too exciting and they act somewhat giddy and weird
>as the fae blood begins to act upon them. After all, an intrusion on
>their privacy is a surprise and can make them frenzy as the blood
>swirls. Perhaps the only violence that they can stand is carefully
>planned in advance and has few surprises to agitate their sensitive
>blood, which sometimes seems to have a life of its own...
Or it could be that, when the bloodline began, iron weapons were
fairly common. Not a good idea to get into a fight ;>
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>> Certainly, many of the older Vampires have some Thraum powers, for
>> example Baba yaga (BTW how did she learn Thraum 9 from eating a
>> tremere and then going back into Torpor?)
> A Tremere? There were doubtless several Chantries beyond the
>Carpathians and well into Rodina. She may have had a smorgasboard
>waiting for her... It is still only a theory, but if she was a Mage in
>life, which some sources imply quite strongly, she may have developed it
>from her former Magicks just as the Tremere did later.
The problem is that Baba Yaga's only awakened once in
memorable history (now). She wasn't around for the Tremere.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
kkn...@ecity.net (K Kuhn) wrote:
>> Of course the quotes about the Sabbat being 'taught better'
>> implies something more than harsh language was required (or, in the case
>> of Riddle Phantastique, harsh language may have been enough...), and the
>> Sabbat stereotype about them being monsters waiting to twist your
>> reality suggests a bit of experience with them in less than
>> amicable surroundings.
>Not necessarily, if you remember their clan disciplines. The ones who
>like necromancy probably live in haunts - and a few old wraiths who don't
>want their fetters messed with, much less their haunts, can get quite
>nasty if the haunt is invaded.
Not always. The Samedi, for instance, get along fine with Wraiths.
It's often useful to have an immortal guard for your fetters, and
even the Nosferatu would have difficulty beating a Wraith at
espionage.
>As to the ones who prefer changelings (if
>every Kiasyd is supposed to "always construct vast underground galleries
>full of unusual stonework of their own design," they might make fairly
>good Dreamers for some fae, too - except of course for the one in MbN, who
>has no ability at all in sculpture, and her only artistic ability is Music
>1.), can you imagine a better way to twist an invader's reality, if the
>puny mortal the Sabbat just sunk his fangs in for a brief suck is suddenly
>8 ft tall, blue, with horns, and now has this flaming axe in his hands
>that is being aimed straight at him? Since most vampires aren't supposed
>to know anything about the fae or the Dreaming, the Sabbat would probably
>assume it was the doing of the Kiasyd. (The Sabbat does have this vampire
>superiority complex - there's no way a mortal could possibly affect them
>like that, and it's also fairly obvious the Sabbat really doesn't care
>about what any ghosts they might create could do to them, considering the
>types of games they condone.)
Depends. Can you see someone on Death and the Soul engaging
in those games on a regular basis?
>So, it might not be that the Kiasyd is necessarily aggressive, but simply
> that their allies are, and the allies teach the invaders the importance of
>being polite. Which could explain Strasbourg as well - if the Ventrue prince of
>the time annoyed the local
>fae enough, and the fae had gotten an oath from the Kiasyd founder to aid
>them against their foes, then it wasn't that he was bloodthirsty, but
>simply that he didn't think he really had a choice, assuming that the
>Kiasyd are close enough to the Dreaming to know that oathbreaking is not a
>good idea.
It could be any number of things. If a prince sees a strange new
vampire in his city, threats WILL come forward.
>> > And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
>> > in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
>> > seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
>> > encourage that much.
>>
>> Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
>> with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
>> beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
>> and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
>> of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
>> way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
>>
>Well, the Sidhe are "Tall and lean...with pointed ears, angular features,
>and a commanding gaze." The Kiasyd almost sound like parodies of the
>Sidhe, since they're even taller, even skinnier, and have exceedingly
>angular features, with completely black eyes - although the eyes sound
>more like a Harbinger's than a Sidhe's. If the Sidhe are inhumanly
>beautiful, then presumably it's possible that sometimes the Kiasyd parody
>would be close enough to the Sidhe for mortals to be affected.
The eyes are also perfectly rounded, I believe.
Ian Turner
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
>
> fairly common. Not a good idea to get into a fight ;>
Well that's a valid point!
Ian Turner.
CJ
Whole bunch of people posted, so I think the original poster is lost: Hello, you out there?
>>> > And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
>>> > in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
>>> > seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
>>> > encourage that much.
>>>
>>> Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
>>> with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
>>> beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
>>> and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
>>> of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
>>> way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
Okay, here's the next theory. What if it's not "etiquette" but war strategy?
What if the Kiasyd are following the old "don't keep all your eggs in one
basket"? (Yes, I read the book and how it mentioned ettiquette specifically.)
What if the Kiasyd are planning an eventual take over of the Cams and the
Sabs and the Incon? Could explain a couple of things:
1. Why they like to be spread out
a) information gathering
b) eggs basket theory
2. Why they are so "docile"
a) Don't start anything to get yourself killed, yet
b) Get everyone to be your friend. *evil smile*
1) so we can use all the vamps as an invading force into Arcadia
2) so we can use all the vamps as a sacrifice to open a doorway to A.
Furhter, there was mention of how they won't drink directly from a vessel.
Could it be the are derived from a higher (or lower even) court of Fey blood?
And they look at all the other vamps as being much lower than they?
I think everyone is really missing the main point, there is VERY little about
the Kiasyd that we know for sure. Why? and Why are we content to just let
them "be". *raised eyebrow*
Also, does anyone know ANY thing about this Teutonic sorcerer they got the
blood from? Or ANY thing about this "Zeernebooch" who the blood is supposedly
of? And what about the rest of Zeernebooch's race? Who is Really pulling the
Kiasyd's strings: the Kiasyd themselves, this sourcer, Zeernebooch, Z.'s
race, someone else from the Underworld, or someone else entirely?
Also, could this "Underworld" be the Inner World the Hollow Ones are always
talking about and looking for?
So many questions, so little "time". *wink*
--
Blessed Be
CJ
CJ_LA on I.R.C. (Insomniacs Revolutionary Coalition)
http://www2.linknet.net/cyrus
cy...@linknet.net
"Everything is possible, including the impossible."
"Visit the condom god before you visit the love goddess."
K Kuhn
In article <5b5s3t$8...@library.airnews.net>, kes...@airmail.net (Kestrel
the Fairly Decent Dragon) wrote:
<snip>
> Or it could be that, when the bloodline began, iron weapons were
> fairly common. Not a good idea to get into a fight ;>
Let's see. Cast iron is only about 91-92% iron, the rest being mostly
silicon and carbon, according to the description I read. Steel is iron
mixed with less than 2% carbon, IIRC. In other words, if cast iron is
enough to trigger their weakness vis-a-vis pure iron, then steel probably
would do it too. Which would make it a very nasty clan weakness even now,
considering all the rebar in the streets, the I-beams in the buildings,
etc. You could always say that it needs to be 100% iron, of course, but
in that case, the weakness pretty much vanishes as a practical matter.
K Kuhn
In article <1a7cd$113b10.395@NEWS>, cy...@linknet.net wrote:
<snip>
> Okay, here's the next theory. What if it's not "etiquette" but war
strategy?
> What if the Kiasyd are following the old "don't keep all your eggs in one
> basket"? (Yes, I read the book and how it mentioned ettiquette
specifically.)
> What if the Kiasyd are planning an eventual take over of the Cams and the
> Sabs and the Incon? Could explain a couple of things:
>
> 1. Why they like to be spread out
> a) information gathering
> b) eggs basket theory
>
> 2. Why they are so "docile"
> a) Don't start anything to get yourself killed, yet
> b) Get everyone to be your friend. *evil smile*
> 1) so we can use all the vamps as an invading force into Arcadia
> 2) so we can use all the vamps as a sacrifice to open a doorway to A.
IC: T'Kiasyd be simply more intelligent Lasombra, yet still interested in
taking over t'world? Certes, I think I be far more intelligent than most
of clan Lasombra. That same intelligence means, though, that I truly care
not about who wishes to claim they rule me, having far more interesting
things to do. Ruling wouldst also end my solitude. Besides, t'only
Kindred of any use as an invading force to Arcadia be Malkavian, as some
of their elders know t'route. And only a fool wouldst wish to gain
sovereignity over Arcadia now, anyway. Certes t'Sidhe wouldst nay have
fled back to Earth 'less t'alternative of remaining in Arcadia was even
worse. Though it gives credence, indeed, to t'beliefs that Malkav hath
chosen to wait until Gehenna in Arcadia.
>
> Furhter, there was mention of how they won't drink directly from a vessel.
> Could it be the are derived from a higher (or lower even) court of Fey
blood?
> And they look at all the other vamps as being much lower than they?
Their preoccupation with status and politics wouldst certes seem to
indicate a certain lack of intelligence.
>
> I think everyone is really missing the main point, there is VERY little about
> the Kiasyd that we know for sure. Why? and Why are we content to just let
> them "be". *raised eyebrow*
>
> Also, does anyone know ANY thing about this Teutonic sorcerer they got the
> blood from? Or ANY thing about this "Zeernebooch" who the blood is
supposedly
> of? And what about the rest of Zeernebooch's race? Who is Really
pulling the
> Kiasyd's strings: the Kiasyd themselves, this sourcer, Zeernebooch, Z.'s
> race, someone else from the Underworld, or someone else entirely?
Personally, 'tis my belief only a Lasombra wouldst have actually
*believed* a sorceror who told him t'blood he offered for sale was that of
a god, much less paid through t'nose for it and then tried to drink it.
Fortunately, my sire didst manage to learn better after he screwed up the
original experiment, and is now a fairly reliable scholar in t'matters
that interest him. Rather than a god, Zeernebooch was more likely to have
been a minor legendary, in sooth, or mayhap a gaunt Harbinger, considering
t'color of our eyes. Why wouldst a sorceror of t'competence necessary to
gain t'blood of a god have wished to sell it in turn to a vampire, anyway?
>
> Also, could this "Underworld" be the Inner World the Hollow Ones are always
> talking about and looking for?
Hollow Ones? Who be they?
>
> So many questions, so little "time". *wink*
OOC: Loved it - although I think the WoD is rather overrun with groups
trying to take over the world. If you *really* want a conspiracy by a
small bloodline, why not the Nagaraja? After all, why should a group of
self-created vampires *want* to serve the Antediluvians? And why should
the rest of the TBH, which is very careful about which bloodlines they let
join them, let this bastard group in, while ignoring others that actually
can trace their ancestry back to the Antes?
When you remember that the Nags have Necromancy and can blood bind wraiths
with Nihilistics, and the TBH takes its directions from what are supposed
to be dead Antediluvians in the Shadowlands, however, it all becomes
clear. The Nags simply blood bound the Aralu, and use that control to
manipulate the TBH for their own benefit. Their Indian background, for
that matter, is the reason why the TBH has its contacts in both the
Eastern and the Western Kindred. The question then becomes, what are the
Euthanatos and Verbena really up to? Does anyone really believe that the
Euthanatos and Verbena of the TBH don't have any relation to the rest of
their traditions? Or that true mages would want to serve beings who can
destroy their Avatars? The Euthanatos believe in improving the Avatar
through death and rebirth, not killing them. And the Verbena are so into
life that it's hard to see why they would be interested in serving undead
Antediluvians. So, the Nags blood bind the Aralu, and the Euthanatos and
Verbena make sure that the rest of the TBH doesn't find out.
K Kuhn
In article <32D5B0...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
> K Kuhn wrote:
> >
> > Hey, 2nd by itself is quite useful. Next time you want to drive a
> > Toreador poseur crazy, start summoning rats (with their fleas) to his
> > party, and have them jump in the blood bowl. Or if V:tDA, summon a
> > few of the pigs that wander around any medieval city.
>
> Ventrue pissing you off? Hit him where it hurts, destroy his
> property values by Beckoning half the roaches in the city to a building
> he owns (throw a corpse down the air ducts, wouldn't want the little
> darlings to go hungry). Works equally well on private Havens, Toreador
> Galleria (avoid doing this in Elysia, it's just NOT DONE, darling!) or
> Tremere Chantries! Get that Board of Health right in there where do not
> belong with an anonymous phone-call! Later, purchase the building which
> the original owners have had to let go cheap. Beckon any remaining
> roaches out and into a handy ship leaving for Bangladesh in an hour...
>
Actually, if you really dislike a Ventrue, you persuade a grump pooka
accountant that he should demonstrate why accounting is *the* creative art
on the Ventrue's holdings.
Tremere - sneak into the chantry the night before a Very Important Tremere
is due to inspect the chantry and replace their grimoires with bound
copies of Playboy or Dr. Seuss. Or dominate (or dementate) them into
being obsessive-compulsive about needing to do the Macarena in public
before using any Thaumaturgy.
etc.
<snip>
> Ian Turner.
K Kuhn
In article <5b5s4a$8...@library.airnews.net>, kes...@airmail.net (Kestrel
the Fairly Decent Dragon) wrote:
> >Not necessarily, if you remember their clan disciplines. The ones who
> >like necromancy probably live in haunts - and a few old wraiths who don't
> >want their fetters messed with, much less their haunts, can get quite
> >nasty if the haunt is invaded.
>
> Not always. The Samedi, for instance, get along fine with Wraiths.
> It's often useful to have an immortal guard for your fetters, and
> even the Nosferatu would have difficulty beating a Wraith at
> espionage.
Exactly what point were you trying to make? I thought what I was saying
was that it's quite possible that a vampire necromancer could have some
wraiths around his haven, with the wraiths providing some protection and
spying, while the vampire keeps the fetters safe and takes care of some
things that wraiths find difficult to do for themselves in the Skinlands,
like you said. In which case, if some Sabbat packs invaded the haunt in
their hunt for the necromancer, the wraiths might not be too happy about
it and have ways of showing it. And I doubt that most Sabbat packs would
have a Samedi with them, especially back when the Sabbat was formed, which
apparently was when the Kiasyd were seriously hunted by the Lasombra.
Nagaraja, maybe, but only if the ST decides that the TBH would have risked
letting the Sabbat find out about the bloodline. Giovanni, even more
unlikely.
I suppose I see the "twisting their reality" comment as being the reaction
of a Sabbat vampire who didn't know much of anything, if at all, about the
capabilities of changelings or wraiths, upon his first encounter with
them, and blamed the Kiasyd instead. Mytheceria is a fun discipline, but
about the only part of it that I can see causing that reaction is if the
Kiasyd formed a maze out of solid rock in front of his haven, the Sabbat
pack wandered in and got lost, and the Kiasyd kept changing the maze on
them.
<snip>
>
> Depends. Can you see someone on Death and the Soul engaging
> in those games on a regular basis?
>
Well, lets see, in the Path of Death and the Soul, Heirarchy of sins,
2 - needlessly preventing a death. Which interfering with the fun and
games might do.
5 - Failing to study death when the opportunity affords itself
10 - Failing to kill for the sake of knowledge.
I suppose, given those sins, I can certainly see someone on Death and the
Soul engaging in Sabbat fun and games with juice bags on a regular basis,
or at least not bothering to object - especially if they decide that some
games make it easier to study death in mortals. And under the current
practices, "This Path has many elaborate rituals, carried out frequently
and regularly. Human and vampire sacrifices are common."
> >So, it might not be that the Kiasyd is necessarily aggressive, but simply
> > that their allies are, and the allies teach the invaders the importance of
> >being polite. Which could explain Strasbourg as well - if the Ventrue
prince of
> >the time annoyed the local
> >fae enough, and the fae had gotten an oath from the Kiasyd founder to aid
> >them against their foes, then it wasn't that he was bloodthirsty, but
> >simply that he didn't think he really had a choice, assuming that the
> >Kiasyd are close enough to the Dreaming to know that oathbreaking is not a
> >good idea.
>
> It could be any number of things. If a prince sees a strange new
> vampire in his city, threats WILL come forward.
>
But I rather *like* the idea of a bloodline that's almost complete
pacifists, without having to be philanthropists or even caring that much
about humans or vampires like the Salubri. At least it means they don't
come off as imitation Tzimisce with fae affinity. And presumably if
Marconius managed to disappear for a few centuries between leaving the
Lasombra and throwing out the Ventrue, it wasn't necessarily like he'd
been chased from town to town and got tired of running.
<snip>
Ian Turner
K Kuhn wrote:
> OOC: Loved it - although I think the WoD is rather overrun with groups
> trying to take over the world. If you *really* want a conspiracy by a
> small bloodline, why not the Nagaraja?
I'm tellin ya. The Cappodocians ARE the Arallu, and the
Giovanni are in for a big surprise when they enter the Shadowlands en
masse to find a Black Hand waiting to seize them by the snarlies...
Ian Turner.
The Baron Samedi
>> Well, yeah only one incident in 1600 years of them taking over
>>an *entire city* by force! Strange the more active Samedi, Daughters,
>>etc as well as the extremely violent Blood Brothers and Baali are never
>>mentioned as conquering a city...
>
>The Samedi have a plan. The Daughters don't seem to care about
>mundane concerns. The Blood Brothers are alien. The Baali are
>believed extinct, and they like that just fine.
The samedi plans probobly go beyond something simple as conquring a
city, and their stringint code for embracing people probnobly prevents
creating an occupation force anywya.
as for the BBs, they are minions. nothing more.
and the Ba'ali probobly do run some Sabbat city somewhere....
>
>
>>> And if Kiasyd etiquette means that no more than one Kiasyd will live
>>> in a city with another one, it also sounds like a bloodline that
>>> seriously likes its solitude - and pack life probably does not
>>> encourage that much.
agreed.
>
>> Well that is certainly true. Kiasyd do not seem to play well
>>with others... And the bit about her sleeping around and being
>>beautiful seems a bit odd. Isn't she supposed to be extremely private
>>and about 7 or so feet tall, skeletally gaunt and BLUE??? Not my idea
>>of a 4-alarm babe, although she COULD be attractive in a sort of alien
>>way, but you'd think that the writer would have mentioned that!
>
>Don't forget the angular features. Mmm.
see my other post. (or keep some respect for my taste in women and
don't)
>Or it could be that, when the bloodline began, iron weapons were
>fairly common. Not a good idea to get into a fight ;>
>
That makes a lot of sense, actually
>
>Kestrel
>The Fairly Decent Dragon
>
>
Da baron
Alec Chang
I think that you're referring to either the Bllod Contract
ritual(level 5, I think, though I'm not sure) or the LARP version of
Thaumaturgy. The path of blood or "Basic Thaumaturgy", is the
"Thaumaturgy" described in V:tM, and the primary path for most
Tremere. Some rituals can do things like that, sure, but the worst
the path of Blood can do is steal your blood or boil it in your veins;
not weak, and perhaps terrifying, but by no means as obscene as the
Lure of Flames.
Alec Chang
Jeff Barr-David
Robert Gene Mayberry wrote:
>
> In article <32d425bb...@news.unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
> >Why do people always want the Tzimisce to obsess over Thaumaturgy?
>
> Because every description of the Tzimisce indicates that they are very
> interested by it.
>
> >Perhaps some of them would know it. But, after all, it's mainly a
> >Tremere art.
> >And, historically, the Tzimisce really haven't* been admirers of the
> >Tremere.
>
> Thaumaturgy was around long before the birth of the Tremere antediluvian.
> While the mightiest of every clan knew some of its ways (such as Baba
> Yaga, Cret, Meneleus and others) it was the Tzimisce who were its
> undisputed masters. That is, they were until the rise of Clan Tremere.
> While to this day, the practical and rationalistic approach of the Tremere
> has made them mighty, the Tzimisce are still quite proficient, especially
> in Thaumaturgy as a spiritual and pseudoreligious art. For this reason,
> and its important role in Tzimisce ideology, the Tzimisce consider
> Thaumaturgy part of their heritage, and guard its secrets jealously.
>
One thing that bugs me is that if the Tzimisce are so 'into'
Thaumaturgy, why is it not one of their clan disciplines? I could easily
see them not having Animalism, with Thau instead as a clan discipline.
Obviously the Tzimisce don't see fit to pass on their mastery of
Thaumaturgy to their childe, so obviously they did not see it as
important as Animalism. Strange realy.
--
**** Mater tua caligas gerit. ****
Loki
One day, it occurred to gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Robert Gene
Mayberry) to write:
>In article <32d425bb...@news.unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
>>Why do people always want the Tzimisce to obsess over Thaumaturgy?
>Because every description of the Tzimisce indicates that they are very
>interested by it.
Well... I don't know about that. I've read CB:Tzimisce, PGS, V:tDA and
in all the various talk about the Tzimisce I found in those books, I
don't remember seeing lots of Thaumaturgy.
>>Perhaps some of them would know it. But, after all, it's mainly a
>>Tremere art.
>>And, historically, the Tzimisce really haven't* been admirers of the
>>Tremere.
>Thaumaturgy was around long before the birth of the Tremere antediluvian.
I know. Not the point. Reread my statement. "Thaumaturgy is mainly a
Tremere art."
I also kinda hate people referring to Tremere and Augustus as
antediluvians. While I do know that White Wolf does this too... it's
still a mistake.
Antedliluvian has a meaning. It means dating from before the flood.
That is, before Noah and his crowd. Tremere and Augustus are uppity
young things in comparison to Noah.
>While the mightiest of every clan knew some of its ways (such as Baba
>Yaga, Cret, Meneleus and others) it was the Tzimisce who were its
>undisputed masters. That is, they were until the rise of Clan Tremere.
>While to this day, the practical and rationalistic approach of the Tremere
>has made them mighty, the Tzimisce are still quite proficient, especially
>in Thaumaturgy as a spiritual and pseudoreligious art. For this reason,
>and its important role in Tzimisce ideology, the Tzimisce consider
>Thaumaturgy part of their heritage, and guard its secrets jealously.
Not even Dirty Secrets takes this approach. The Discipline Vicissitude
replaced was Dominate, not Thaumaturgy. (Now, mind, I detest Dirty
Secrets. I don't mind Vicissitude being a bad, even a horrible, thing,
but what they did to it in that book was so cheesy, you could make
pizza from it. :)
I don't see the Tzimisce as being very Thaumaturgical, at least not as
they're presented in V:tDA. And I *like* the Tzimisce from V:tDA.
They're menacing, spooky, violent and extremely Eastern European. It's
great.
>>I think a lot of them would be more interested in Necromancy,
>>particularly among the necronomists.
>They are. However, many prefer Thaumaturgy for its flexibility and for
>the fact that it is more readily available. While the Kiasyd and Nagaraja
>have been practicing this art for thousands of years, they are very, very
>rare, and their powers are not often taught to outsiders.
*sigh* Necromancy is a recommended Discipline for Death and the Soul.
PGS strongly implies that it's a common Discipline among the
practitioners of that Path, many* of whom are Tzimisce.
>>You want some Thaumaturgy, go talk to a Serpent of the Light. Or maybe
>>even an Assamite.
>Very few munafiqun will ever encounter an Assamite sorcerer. Those who do
>had best beware, for the Rafiq would have to be potent enough in battle
>and in blood to risk leaving Assamite holdings. As for the Settites, they
>practice Undead Sorcery for the same reasons as the Tzimisce, though both
>would be loathe to admit it. But the Serpents of the Light have developed
>their own branch; little is inherited from Set's experiments. More is
>drawn from the Tzimisce and Tremere and more still from the houngans from
>whom they were drawn.
Assamite antitribu. You know, the ones who are loyal to (and some
would say make up the backbone of) the Sabbat?
>>Although, there are probably more than a few Tzimisce practicing Dark
>>Thaumaturgy. But that wasn't what you really meant, was it? :)
>;)
... and, to be honest, the Paths of Dark Thaumaturgy really remind me
of the Tzimisce a lot more than the Paths of (Light? :) Thaumaturgy.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote:
>> Hey, 2nd by itself is quite useful. Next time you want to drive a
>> Toreador poseur crazy, start summoning rats (with their fleas) to his
>> party, and have them jump in the blood bowl. Or if V:tDA, summon a
>> few of the pigs that wander around any medieval city.
> Ventrue pissing you off? Hit him where it hurts, destroy his
>property values by Beckoning half the roaches in the city to a building
>he owns (throw a corpse down the air ducts, wouldn't want the little
>darlings to go hungry). Works equally well on private Havens, Toreador
>Galleria (avoid doing this in Elysia, it's just NOT DONE, darling!) or
>Tremere Chantries! Get that Board of Health right in there where do not
>belong with an anonymous phone-call! Later, purchase the building which
>the original owners have had to let go cheap. Beckon any remaining
>roaches out and into a handy ship leaving for Bangladesh in an hour...
Did that to the Tremere one game. Later realized I should have used
termites. Think of all those books...
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Jeff Barr-David <jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
>One thing that bugs me is that if the Tzimisce are so 'into'
>Thaumaturgy, why is it not one of their clan disciplines? I could easily
>see them not having Animalism, with Thau instead as a clan discipline.
>Obviously the Tzimisce don't see fit to pass on their mastery of
>Thaumaturgy to their childe, so obviously they did not see it as
>important as Animalism. Strange realy.
Not particularly. In DA, the Tzmisce pride themselves on their
understanding of the Beast, and Animalism's an important
factor in that.
Ian Turner
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> termites. Think of all those books...
Oh, my shriveled heart! Don't say such things! 'Think of all
those books...' indeed!
a horrified Tremere player.
Jeff Barr-David
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
>
I was going by what id in CB Timisce. Throughout the book there are
references to Thua and how great the clan is at it. Animalism on the
onther hand is mentioned only twice, the list of clan disciplines and
the control of war ghouls. The book seems to cover a (very) sketchy
history of the clan from it beginings tthrough the dark ages and up to
the present day. It still only mentions Animalism twice, wereas Thua is
mentioned several times, even describing Tzimisce Tua as being more
'religious' or ceremonial than that used by the Tremere.
Which came out first, Clan Boook Tzimisc or Vampire: the Dark Ages?
Araknid
OK here's my interpretation of Thaumaturgy (both in the Sabbat and
elsewhere)
The thaumaturgy known to the Tremere (and their antitribu) differs from the
thaumaturgy known to the Tzimisce and others. Vampire blood powered hedge
magic existed prior to the Tremere's usurpation of vampirism from a
Tzimisce elder. The Tzimisce practiced paths such as Elemental Mastery and
Spirit Thaumaturgy, the Setites practiced Path of Corruption, Baba Yaga
practiced who knows what.
Lots of vampires were using a myriad of types of static magic - only they
didn't base their magics upon any common paradigm. What Baba Yaga draws
from her corrupted proto-Verbena/Dreamspeaker/Malfean Nephandi knowledge
wouldn't make sense to a Setite who draws his powers from the secrets of
his Dark god. At this time thaumaturgy would be a hard won secret passed
from sire to childe. Neither the Tzimisce or Setites would have had access
to the Path of Blood (Rego Vitae in Dark Ages) although BY _might_ have
(see below).
Separate from the vampire side of things in 767 AD (according to my copy of
Ars Magica) Bonisagus, Trianoma et al. founded the medieval Order of
Hermes, claiming to descend from the Greek Cult of Hermes and the Roman
Cult of Mercury. One of the founding members was Tremere, his followers
became House Tremere of the Order of Hermes.
The Order of Hermes soon became the dominant group of magi in Europe
because they agreed to change the teaching of magic/magick from a Master to
apprentice passing on of secrets to the teaching of a common "Theory of
Magic" - enabling all members of the Order to share discoveries. So spells
became common across the Order and the knowledge base of a Hermetic magus
was vastly greater than that of wizards from outside of it.
So when House Tremere became Clan Tremere and lost their magic(k) they set
about recreating it as Thaumaturgy. The basis of their thaumaturgy was the
Techniques and Forms of hermetic theory which included ritual magic.
The rest of the Order of Hermes then ditched this outlook in the 1400's
when the Council of Nine adopted the Nine Spheres of Magick for pretty much
the same reason - to aid communication & teaching between the various
Traditions.
So the Clan of Tremere although very young compared to other thaumaturgy
using Clans/Bloodlines quickly became the best at it because they had a
common theoretical basis. What one Tremere learnt be it a path, ritual etc
was easily taught to the rest (for the good of the Clan).
Thus in the current World of Darkness the thaumaturgy known to the Tremere,
the Tremere antitribu and whoever else they've taught is superior to that
of the mish mash of stuff floating around among the Tzimisce and Setites
etc. These other groups have their thaumaturgy paths and their collection
of rituals but they don't have access to the centuries of amassed research
that Clan Tremere and others trained in their brand of thaumaturgy have.
Baba Yaga and Kemintiri may have each put thousands of monster-years of
effort into thaumaturgy and still be outclassed by the relatively young
Etrius, Goratrix and Meerlinda because they have access to tens of
thousands of person-years of research (if not more).
In general the only vampires with the Path of Blood / Rego Vitae would be
those who learned the type of thaumaturgy descended from that of the
Tremere.
The only groups who _might_ have anywhere near the Tremere's mastery of
thaumaturgy are those associated with the Black Hand. The Nagaraja and the
Rafisto(sp?). Although both of these groups are relatively tiny when
compared to the Tremere they have a similar coopertative culture.
The Nagaraja were a group of Euthanatos mages who did pretty much the same
thing the Tremere did - used magick to turn themselves into vampires - and
they could have a similar theoretical basis to their thaumaturgy descended
from the Euthanatos paradigm.
The Rafisto are a family of Revenants descended from a group of Verbena and
thus their thaumaturgy would be based on a Verbena paradigm. The Rafisto
quite possibly practice the Path of Blood as their primary thaumaturgy path
- the origins of the Tremere's blood magic itself _possibly_ having been
stolen from House Diedne (a group of Verbena who had joined the Order of
Hermes) in the Schism War of 1003-1012.
As for the idea that Path of Blood is 'underpowered' compared to other
thaumaturgy paths .... level 3 - Blood Potency - is one of the Tremere's
most important powers. It overcomes the tyranny of generation allowing
higher generation Tremere a huge advantage when compared to other clans -
ie. Dominating elders - as well as access to physical stats pumped above 5,
larger blood pools ....
Given the opinions above it would also be the basis of all the Blood based
rituals ... from the useful Principle Focus of Vitae infusion to the truly
hideous Drawing upon the Bound.
All of this is just my thoughts on the matter from having read the previous
'Sabbat Thaumaturgy' posts to this ng and perusing a few manuals. It neatly
explains how the Tzimisce, Setites and some random Nictuku could have had a
several thousand year head start at mastering vampiric magic and still be
outclassed by a group of usurping upstarts.
Darian
PS. guess it's pretty obvious I'm a Mage ST :-)
B Alex Hofelich
Jeff Barr-David <jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
>Which came out first, Clan Boook Tzimisc or Vampire: the Dark Ages?
Is White Wolf famous for being consistent?
--
B Alex Hofelich
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
Internet: bh...@prism.gatech.edu
Ian Turner
Araknid wrote:
> The Rafisto quite possibly practice the Path of Blood as their primary
> thaumaturgy path - the origins of the Tremere's blood magic itself
> _possibly_ having been stolen from House Diedne (a group of Verbena
> who had joined the Order of Hermes) in the Schism War of 1003-1012.
The RAFASTIO do in fact have Path of Blood as their Primary
Path. Fascinating that connection between the Verbena and Path of
Blood! Great idea (as were most of your other ones)!
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Jeff Barr-David wrote:
> (Stuff about Tzimisce and Thaum snipt)
It is fairly odd that the Clanbook makes it quite clear that
Status in the Clan is reserved to those who have Awakened their Zulo
form and learned at least level one Thaumaturgy.
Then again one third of the Assamite power structure is devoted
to the Amr and their researches. The Assamite Antitribu leader ALWAYS
has Thaum 6 (see the PGS ritual, The Gift) and anyone who challenges the
Old Man of Alamut must be prepared to beat him physically, socially or
thaumaturgically (his choice!).
Oh yeah, the Setites can supposedly learn Path of Corruption
without ever learning Thaumaturgy proper according to their Clanbook!
Lets not forget the Nagaraja, who cant perform their primary
duty to shuttle people to and from Enoch without Thaum 4 to 6!!!
Under Soul Stealing (Necromancy 5) it is mentioned that one must
have Spirit Thaumaturgy to actually use the damn power effectively!
Thaumaturgy. 'Everbody wants some' Yeesh.
Ian Turner.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>I also kinda hate people referring to Tremere and Augustus as
>antediluvians. While I do know that White Wolf does this too... it's
>still a mistake.
>Antedliluvian has a meaning. It means dating from before the flood.
>That is, before Noah and his crowd. Tremere and Augustus are uppity
>young things in comparison to Noah.
And sub rosa means under the rose. Literal translations aren't
always right.
John H
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>One day, it occurred to gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Robert Gene
>Mayberry) to write:
>>In article <32d425bb...@news.unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>I also kinda hate people referring to Tremere and Augustus as
>antediluvians. While I do know that White Wolf does this too... it's
>still a mistake.
>Antedliluvian has a meaning. It means dating from before the flood.
>That is, before Noah and his crowd. Tremere and Augustus are uppity
>young things in comparison to Noah.
But the name was applied to all of the third generation when all of
the third generation _were_ from before the flood. So, the title now
goes to Clan founders (Or just 3rd gens, if there are some 4th gen
foundes I don't know of, I haven't read half the books).
(One of my NPCs that is fun to play: "Noah... <sigh> I miss
grandpa...")
Loki
One day, it occurred to kes...@airmail.net (Kestrel the Fairly Decent
Dragon) to write:
>f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>I also kinda hate people referring to Tremere and Augustus as
>>antediluvians. While I do know that White Wolf does this too... it's
>>still a mistake.
>>
>>Antedliluvian has a meaning. It means dating from before the flood.
>>That is, before Noah and his crowd. Tremere and Augustus are uppity
>>young things in comparison to Noah.
>And sub rosa means under the rose. Literal translations aren't
>always right.
The meaning of antediluvian I gave isn't a "literal translation"; it's
in the O.E.D. - it's bloody English.
Eric Robert Sylwester
Jeff Barr-David (jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
: I was going by what id in CB Timisce. Throughout the book there are
: references to Thua and how great the clan is at it. Animalism on the
: onther hand is mentioned only twice, the list of clan disciplines and
: the control of war ghouls. The book seems to cover a (very) sketchy
: history of the clan from it beginings tthrough the dark ages and up to
: the present day. It still only mentions Animalism twice, wereas Thua is
: mentioned several times, even describing Tzimisce Tua as being more
: 'religious' or ceremonial than that used by the Tremere.
I see two possiblities here:
Could be propaganda on their part. I admit, I haven't read
CB:Tzi, but here's what I hope is a relevant example- CB:Lasombra talks
extensively about how the Lasombra rule the sabbat. They invented it,
they control it, the black hand is a minor group, etc., etc. It is
necessarily true? Nope. It's just what the Lasombra tell their childer,
and it may resemble what is superficially obvious to an observer. That
doesn't make it true. The Tzimisce may be bragging about their vaunted
thaumaturgical skills to their childer (or outsiders), but it could be a
bluff, or wishful thinking, or a lot of other things.
The flip side of the coin is that you rarely make a big deal out
of something you feel to be commonplace. Tzimisce might not talk much
about Animalism because its' assumed every neonate knows at least a bit
about it already. But they *won't* know about thaumaturgy.
-or maybe-
Just because they aren't naturally talented at Thaumaturgy (i.e.
have it as a clan discipline) doesn't mean they don't work hard to get it.
Could be something they take seriously enough to teach to most of their
childer...*after* their childer have shown proficiency in the "basics."
Beginning characters, of course, haven't reached that elevated stage yet.
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Jeffryes Joshua M
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
:| Oh yeah, the Setites can supposedly learn Path of Corruption
:|without ever learning Thaumaturgy proper according to their Clanbook!
This is really no longer true after Vampire: Dark Ages. In V:DA, when you
learn Thaumaturgy, you pick a *primary path,* one that goes up with your
"base" Thaumaturgy score. Under V:DA the path of blood is now just one
optional path, *not* the one all Tremere have automatically.
So Settites actually learn Thaumaturgy just like everyone else, they just
always pick the Path of Corruption as their primary path.
J. Spectre - someone should almost just write up a list of the
differences between VtM 2nd ed and VDA. There's an awful lot
of them.
|"Those who trust do not question. |"A man who has not passed through |
| Those who fear dare not question." | the inferno of his passions has |
| -NWO slogan | never overcome them." -CG Jung |
+ -------------PENTEX: God made man. We made him better. ---------------+
Ian Turner
Jeffryes Joshua M wrote:
>
> This is really no longer true after Vampire: Dark Ages. In V:DA, when
> you learn Thaumaturgy, you pick a *primary path,* one that goes up
> with your "base" Thaumaturgy score. Under V:DA the path of blood is
> now just one optional path, *not* the one all Tremere have
> automatically.
>
> So Settites actually learn Thaumaturgy just like everyone else, they
> just always pick the Path of Corruption as their primary path.
Cool! That is the way we have been doing it anyway. Setites
start with Corruption, Assamites and Tremere start with Blood, Tzimisce
start with Biothaumaturgical Experimentation, Giovanni or Samedi start
with Spirit Thaumaturgy, etc.
Ian Turner.
Loki
One day, it occurred to jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (John H) to write:
>f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>
>>One day, it occurred to gt8...@prism.gatech.edu (Robert Gene
>>Mayberry) to write:
>
>>>In article <32d425bb...@news.unb.ca>, Loki <f3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>
>>I also kinda hate people referring to Tremere and Augustus as
>>antediluvians. While I do know that White Wolf does this too... it's
>>still a mistake.
>>
>>Antedliluvian has a meaning. It means dating from before the flood.
>>That is, before Noah and his crowd. Tremere and Augustus are uppity
>>young things in comparison to Noah.
>But the name was applied to all of the third generation when all of
>the third generation _were_ from before the flood. So, the title now
>goes to Clan founders (Or just 3rd gens, if there are some 4th gen
>foundes I don't know of, I haven't read half the books).
Exactly. It was applied to the Antediluvian Kindred, back when they
were all Antediluvians.
Sigh. It's not a title. It's an adjective. It has to do with age, not
generation, two things which many White Wolfers get confused together.
[Please don't quote my .sig]
Jeff Barr-David
B Alex Hofelich wrote:
>
> Jeff Barr-David <jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
> >Which came out first, Clan Boook Tzimisc or Vampire: the Dark Ages?
>
> Is White Wolf famous for being consistent?
>
No.
I am just curious as to what this "Vampire: the Dark Ages" book is. I
had not heard about it until I subscribed to this newsgroup, nor seen it
in any Sydney (local) RPG bookshop, unitl about two months ago. Is this
book so recent that it has not yet graced the shores of Australia?
In CB Tzimisce it mentions that this clan hate the Tremere, but gives no
actual reason for this. I have not seen CB Tremere, but from other
players I have heard that the Tremere used a Tzimisce and a Nosferatu in
order to 'steal' vampirism. If this was actualy true, it SHOULD have
been mentioned in CB Tzimisce as the reason for hatred of the Tremere.
It was not. If it was actually mentioned in CB Tremere, then it MUST
have been released some time after CB Tzimisce.
I would still like to have a timeline of the release dates of the
various V:TM books, including V:DA.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>The meaning of antediluvian I gave isn't a "literal translation"; it's
>in the O.E.D. - it's bloody English.
And Methuselah is ONE person in the Bible. And it isn't spelled
Jyhad. This is a game system, Regardless, this is the definition in
Vampire:
"Antedeluvian One of the eldest Kindred, a member of the third
generation. A warlord of the Jyhad."
-Vampire, the Masquerade (2nd ed), page 55
Loki
>f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>The meaning of antediluvian I gave isn't a "literal translation"; it's
>>in the O.E.D. - it's bloody English.
>And Methuselah is ONE person in the Bible. And it isn't spelled
>Jyhad. This is a game system, Regardless, this is the definition in
>Vampire:
<definition snipped>
Yeah, yeah, I know. But... With Jyhad, it's fine. When you invent a
new word, you can give it a new meaning. Doesn't bother me.
Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
strange thing to do, but generally OK.
What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
themselves that.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
Jeff Barr-David <jbd...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
>I am just curious as to what this "Vampire: the Dark Ages" book is. I
>had not heard about it until I subscribed to this newsgroup, nor seen it
>in any Sydney (local) RPG bookshop, unitl about two months ago. Is this
>book so recent that it has not yet graced the shores of Australia?
Rules for playing Vampire in the Middle Ages.
>In CB Tzimisce it mentions that this clan hate the Tremere, but gives no
>actual reason for this. I have not seen CB Tremere, but from other
>players I have heard that the Tremere used a Tzimisce and a Nosferatu in
>order to 'steal' vampirism. If this was actualy true, it SHOULD have
>been mentioned in CB Tzimisce as the reason for hatred of the Tremere.
>It was not. If it was actually mentioned in CB Tremere, then it MUST
>have been released some time after CB Tzimisce.
It is true, and it was mentioned as early as Children of the
Inquisition. Clanbook Tremere came out years before Tzmisce.
Now, for the most part, the reason for the feud is lost to
antiquity.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) wrote:
>I see two possiblities here:
> Could be propaganda on their part. I admit, I haven't read
>CB:Tzi, but here's what I hope is a relevant example- CB:Lasombra talks
>extensively about how the Lasombra rule the sabbat. They invented it,
Outright lie. The Sabbat was founded by Brujah antitribu. They
were just too disorganized to continue to lead.
>they control it, the black hand is a minor group, etc., etc. It is
>necessarily true? Nope. It's just what the Lasombra tell their childer,
>and it may resemble what is superficially obvious to an observer. That
>doesn't make it true. The Tzimisce may be bragging about their vaunted
>thaumaturgical skills to their childer (or outsiders), but it could be a
>bluff, or wishful thinking, or a lot of other things.
> The flip side of the coin is that you rarely make a big deal out
>of something you feel to be commonplace. Tzimisce might not talk much
>about Animalism because its' assumed every neonate knows at least a bit
>about it already. But they *won't* know about thaumaturgy.
Mmm. True. Not much talk about Potence in Brujah.
> -or maybe-
> Just because they aren't naturally talented at Thaumaturgy (i.e.
>have it as a clan discipline) doesn't mean they don't work hard to get it.
>Could be something they take seriously enough to teach to most of their
>childer...*after* their childer have shown proficiency in the "basics."
>Beginning characters, of course, haven't reached that elevated stage yet.
Or it could be that the Vicissitude has warped the elders' minds, and
they think they're better than they are.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>Sigh. It's not a title. It's an adjective. It has to do with age, not
>generation, two things which many White Wolfers get confused together.
Not any more, it's not. It is now a title for any Clan founder,
not just the originals. Languages change, even among
immortals.
Ian Turner
Eric Robert Sylwester wrote:
>
> Actually, a methuselah- the noun as opposed to the proper name-
> refers to a (very large) size of wine bottle.
> But I doubt this is what WW is referring to. :)
It is certainly what I think of right off when I hear one is
around. Yum, a HUGE wine bottle filled to bursting with GOOD STUFF!
Ian Turner.
Loki
One day, it occurred to jmj...@nic.smsu.edu (Jeffryes Joshua M) to
write:
>J. Spectre - someone should almost just write up a list of the
> differences between VtM 2nd ed and VDA. There's an awful lot
> of them.
Well, the main two are in Thaumaturgy and Celerity.
Thaumaturgy has been fixed. The paths now work the way they're
supposed to.
Celerity has been weakened a touch.
Malkavians now have Dementation instead of Dominate (they have the
Malkavian antitribu discipline mix).
Mortis has been added, as a new Discipline.
Chimerstry, Dementation, Daimoinon, Obtenebration, Quietus, Serpentis,
Thaumaturgical rituals above the first level, and Vicissitude have all
been brought into the main rulebook, out of the supplements that they
originally appeared in.
Gimpy special powers have been added.
Streetwise has been removed as a Talent, replaced with Larceny; Drive,
Firearms, Repair and Security have been removed as Skills, replaced
with Archery, Crafts, Herbalism, and Ride; and Bureaucracy, Computer
and Finance have been removed as Knowledges, replaced with Academics,
Hearth Wisdom and Seneschal.
Roads (similar to Paths, especially to the Paths of the independent
clans) have been brought in, along with a couple new Virtues,
Conviction and Instinct (quite different from the Sabbat virtues with
similar names).
New Archetypes: Barbarian, Defender, Monster, Rogue, Tyrant.
Archetypes brought in from Player's Guide: Autocrat, Penitent.
Renamed Archetypes: Caretaker (was Caregiver), Celebrant (was Bon
Vivant), Innovator (was Visionary).
Quite a few Archetypes are missing, too: the "modern" ones I guess.
Merits and Flaws, some anyway, have been brought into the main book,
although they still live in the Appendix.
Eric Robert Sylwester
a67c6.1...@news.unb.ca>:
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution:
Loki (f3...@unb.ca) wrote:
: Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
: strange thing to do, but generally OK.
Actually, a methuselah- the noun as opposed to the proper name-
refers to a (very large) size of wine bottle.
But I doubt this is what WW is referring to. :)
This is yet another question with no One True Answer. Antediluvian refers
to whatever YOU want it to. Me, I live in California- just about
everyone here could be classified as antediluvian after this winter.
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>>The meaning of antediluvian I gave isn't a "literal translation"; it's
>>>in the O.E.D. - it's bloody English.
>>And Methuselah is ONE person in the Bible. And it isn't spelled
>>Jyhad. This is a game system, Regardless, this is the definition in
>>Vampire:
><definition snipped>
>Yeah, yeah, I know. But... With Jyhad, it's fine. When you invent a
>new word, you can give it a new meaning. Doesn't bother me.
Not a new word, a variation on an old one.
>Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
>strange thing to do, but generally OK.
>What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
>antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
>this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
>Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
>themselves that.
Would you walk up to Augustus and tell him he can't call himself
that?
Mostly, it's just a catch-all phrase for the 3rd Gen. It was used
before Augustus and Tremere for millenia, so why would everyone
change?
Daniel Harms
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>Well, the main two are in Thaumaturgy and Celerity.
>Thaumaturgy has been fixed. The paths now work the way they're
>supposed to.
Paths become more important; as most of them
can now be used with a Willpower roll instead of an
Attribute+Ability roll, the user can become much more
skilled in them for less experience. Rituals, on the other
hand, are de-emphasized, and require a roll to take effect.
>Celerity has been weakened a touch.
>Malkavians now have Dementation instead of Dominate (they have the
>Malkavian antitribu discipline mix).
>Mortis has been added, as a new Discipline.
>Chimerstry, Dementation, Daimoinon, Obtenebration, Quietus, Serpentis,
>Thaumaturgical rituals above the first level, and Vicissitude have all
>been brought into the main rulebook, out of the supplements that they
>originally appeared in.
Some changes have been made, however. Quietus 5 is an
entirely different power. Advancing in Chimerstry now requires that
the user drink the blood of a fae. Obtenebration has been fleshed out
considerably -- Storytellers beware! There are some other changes;
I may have a file listing them around here somewhere.
Daniel M. Harms "What may blight the damsel so?
Vanderbilt University Watermelon, work. or woe?"
har...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu H. P. Lovecraft
Loki
>f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>>>The meaning of antediluvian I gave isn't a "literal translation"; it's
>>>>in the O.E.D. - it's bloody English.
>>>And Methuselah is ONE person in the Bible. And it isn't spelled
>>>Jyhad. This is a game system, Regardless, this is the definition in
>>>Vampire:
>>Yeah, yeah, I know. But... With Jyhad, it's fine. When you invent a
>>new word, you can give it a new meaning. Doesn't bother me.
>Not a new word, a variation on an old one.
Same thing, really. Do more linguistics. I've done too much of it for
my own stomach's good.
>>Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
>>strange thing to do, but generally OK.
>>
>>What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
>>antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
>>this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
>>Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
>>themselves that.
>Would you walk up to Augustus and tell him he can't call himself
>that?
Why would I have to?
>Mostly, it's just a catch-all phrase for the 3rd Gen. It was used
>before Augustus and Tremere for millenia, so why would everyone
>change?
It was used before Augustus and Tremere to mean "before the flood" for
millennia, so why would everyone change?
Mike Bruner
Mike wrote:
Eric Robert Sylwester wrote:
>
> a67c6.1...@news.unb.ca>:
> Organization: University of California, Berkeley
> Distribution:
>
> Loki (f3...@unb.ca) wrote:
>
> : Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
> : strange thing to do, but generally OK.
>
> Actually, a methuselah- the noun as opposed to the proper name-
> refers to a (very large) size of wine bottle.
> But I doubt this is what WW is referring to. :)
> This is yet another question with no One True Answer. Antediluvian refers
> to whatever YOU want it to. Me, I live in California- just about
> everyone here could be classified as antediluvian after this winter.
Considering most Methuselahs seem to end up needing diablerie to
survive, being the same name as a wine bottle makes a cute joke: "Would
you like white wine or red wine with your vampire tonight?" :). This
raises a question; what wines or cocktails go best with diablerie? :)
Sure, some are easy to guess (Ventrue: Drunk with a martini, shaken, not
stirred) but what should be served along with say a Lasombra (maybe just
an empty glass captured on camera?) or a Malkavian attribu (Ooh, maybe
some questions are better left unasked...)? An interesting topic, to be
sure, and one that knowledge of might save a Methusaleh's unlife if he
can give recommendations on it to an Antediluvian during Gehanna... :)
Ok HC
>
>> Loki (f3...@unb.ca) wrote:
>
>> : Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
>> : strange thing to do, but generally OK.
>
>> Actually, a methuselah- the noun as opposed to the proper name-
>> refers to a (very large) size of wine bottle.
>> But I doubt this is what WW is referring to. :)
>> This is yet another question with no One True Answer. Antediluvian
refers
>> to whatever YOU want it to. Me, I live in California- just about
>> everyone here could be classified as antediluvian after this winter.
>Considering most Methuselahs seem to end up needing diablerie to
>survive, being the same name as a wine bottle makes a cute joke: "Would
>you like white wine or red wine with your vampire tonight?" :). This
>raises a question; what wines or cocktails go best with diablerie? :)
>Sure, some are easy to guess (Ventrue: Drunk with a martini, shaken, not
>stirred) but what should be served along with say a Lasombra (maybe just
>an empty glass captured on camera?) or a Malkavian attribu (Ooh, maybe
>some questions are better left unasked...)? An interesting topic, to be
>sure, and one that knowledge of might save a Methusaleh's unlife if he
>can give recommendations on it to an Antediluvian during Gehanna... :)
I could just see some elder making an off color joke using the Methusalah
in both sences of the word to a group of other vampires that would disgust
all the elders and go right over the younger childer's heads.
Malkavian anti-tribu would defenatly be drank with absinthe.
--17---
Kellie Patrick-Getty
Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> And Methuselah is ONE person in the Bible. And it isn't spelled
> Jyhad. This is a game system, Regardless, this is the definition in
> Vampire:
>
> generation. A warlord of the Jyhad."
>
> -Vampire, the Masquerade (2nd ed), page 55
The meaning is dependent on whether you treat the "," as an AND or an OR.
In the case of AND, this would exclude Tremere and Augustus, they are not
"one of the eldest of Kindred." In the case of OR, Tremere and Augustus
would be considered Antedeluvian as would some number of really old
Kindred (it would be up to the ST has to how old). Now how "a warlord of
the Jyhad" modifies that, well, we open a whole other can of worms
there...
Kellie
Eric Robert Sylwester
mto$l...@ursa.smsu.edu> <32da44d4...@news.unb.ca>
<5bf2e5$1...@news.vanderbilt.edu>:
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution:
Daniel Harms (har...@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu) wrote:
: >Thaumaturgy has been fixed. The paths now work the way they're
: >supposed to.
: Paths become more important; as most of them
: can now be used with a Willpower roll instead of an
: Attribute+Ability roll, the user can become much more
: skilled in them for less experience. Rituals, on the other
: hand, are de-emphasized, and require a roll to take effect.
Yep. Though I really like V:tDA thaumaturgy, I find that it makes
Willpower- which is already an important trait- even more important, which
makes the players *really* want to buff it up.
I've been toying with the idea of using Self-Control+Path rating
as your thaum. dice pool because of that, but have yet to take the plunge.
Johnny Mayall
> On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Loki wrote:
>
> Yeah, yeah, I know. But... With Jyhad, it's fine. When you invent a
> new word, you can give it a new meaning. Doesn't bother me.
What new word is invented? Jyhad? Sorry, but that's a blatant play on
another word.
> Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
> strange thing to do, but generally OK.
> What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
> antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
> this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
> Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
> themselves that.
Well, when you're discussing characters from a game, wouldn't it make
sense to use that game's definitions of the word (as per Kestrel's post)?
---Johnny Mayall---ac51@jove.acs.unt.edu---http://people.unt.edu/~ac51---
In the 1920s, the poet Paul Eluard was eloquently talking to Joan Miro
about what Eluard took to be a solar symbol in one of Miro's paintings.
After a decent interval, Miro replied, 'That's not a solar symbol. It's
a potato.'
-Sylvan Barnett, "A Short Guide to Writing About Art"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au
>Why do people always want the Tzimisce to obsess over Thaumaturgy?
>
>Perhaps some of them would know it. But, after all, it's mainly a
>Tremere art.
It is _now_. It wasn't always. There were plenty of people around who
practiced Thaumaturgy before the Tremere came along, and no doubt they
didn't feel obliged to stop it just because a new clan came along who
specialised therein.
>And, historically, the Tzimisce really haven't* been admirers of the
>Tremere.
That doesn't have a bearing on whether or not they learn Thaumaturgy.
Their hatred for the Tremere is based on the fact that the Tremere stole
their powers from the Tzimisce to begin with, _not_ because the Tzimisce
despise Thaumaturgy. I'd suspect that the Tzimisce would be _glad_ to
learn as much Thaumaturgy as possible - it lets them beat their rivals
at their own game, and it makes the Tremere unnecessary to the Sabbat.
The Tremere antitribu are a small group, not well trusted, and they are
easily detected by other Tremere; the only reason the Sabbat gives them
shelter is because they provide the Sabbat with thaumaturgists. This is
why the Tzimisce want to assert their mastery of Thaumaturgy, and it's
also why the Tremere won't share with the Tzimisce...
My suspicion is that the Sabbat have two different "schools" of
Thaumaturgy, the Tremere and Tzimisce schools, and that neither school
likes to share with the other.
>I think a lot of them would be more interested in Necromancy,
>particularly among the necronomists.
Nah. No true Tzimisce lets people _die_.
>You want some Thaumaturgy, go talk to a Serpent of the Light. Or maybe
>even an Assamite.
Possibly different schools again. The Serpents are great with the Path
of Corruption. But they're quite new to the Sabbat, and most of them are
pretty young; they simply don't _know_ the higher levels of Thaumaturgy.
The Assamite antitribu might know some Thaumaturgy, but my impression
was that most of the Assamites' Thaumaturgy was developed in the attempt
to break the Curse. If that's the case, then it wouldn't apply to the
antitribu (who never submitted to the Curse in the first place.)
>Although, there are probably more than a few Tzimisce practicing Dark
>Thaumaturgy. But that wasn't what you really meant, was it? :)
I tend to think that the Tzimisce produce no more Dark Thaumaturgists
than the other clans. They're certainly _evil_, but they're not the type
to willingly accept a new master in exchange for power. The Lasombra,
now...
Geoffrey Brent
--
gbr...@rscsun.anu.edu.au
Ok HC
>>What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
>>antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
>>this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
>>Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
>>themselves that.
>Would you walk up to Augustus and tell him he can't call himself
>that?
>Mostly, it's just a catch-all phrase for the 3rd Gen. It was used
>before Augustus and Tremere for millenia, so why would everyone
>change?
Because there are vampires out there, such as Mithras, Helena, and most of
the Inconnu, who are older than Augustus and Tremere who just couldn't
live with themselves to call them 'antedeluvians' when they know what real
antedeluvians are like and how long they've been around.
Words can have more than one meaning and have different uses in the same
language group. In my game it's sort of a case of Old Form and Vulgar
Argot. Newer vampires will refer to all 3rd gens to be antedeluvians since
they figure there's not much difference and who's going to say otherwise.
Meanwhile, elders, who have an idea of the age differences will refrain
from calling the newer 3rd gens antedeluvians. They'll do this just to
artificially create a cultural difference between the newer less cultured
vampires(anarchs) and the newer, cultured vampires (their childer).
Calling either Giovanni or Tremere and antedeluvian infront of an older
vampire isn't nessesarily wrong, it's just a minor social fax paus(sp?)
sort of like using the clan names for the clan founders when other names
are known.
Keep in mind, I'm not argueing out of the books here. This is just how my
game runs and how we decided it would work. If you don't want it a certain
way in your own game, change it.
--17---
Anthony BT Boyd
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Kestrel the Fairly Decent Dragon wrote:
> f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
> >Sigh. It's not a title. It's an adjective. It has to do with age, not
> >generation, two things which many White Wolfers get confused together.
>
> Not any more, it's not. It is now a title for any Clan founder,
> not just the originals. Languages change, even among
> immortals.
> Kestrel
> The Fairly Decent Dragon
The word antediluvian is indeed an adjective but things change when one
sees it with a capital letter....
It is also fairly common for people to label others as "the next <insert
famous person's name here with gasps of awe and perhaps some pyrotechnics>".
For example one might say, "She is the next Jennifer Hartshorn," or
*gasp* "He is the next Methuselah." Say it enough times and it becomes,
"Behold, the venerated Hartshorn comes!" or "Careful, he's a Methuselah
and you know how damn cranky they are!" Anyway, hasn't this sand
flinging gone on long enough Dan? I know that *you* at least can
recognize the old immovable object/irresistable force problem. ;}
..............................................................................
==============================================================================
Lucifer: Poor Clay! And thou pretendest to be wretched! Thou!
Cain : I am: - and thou with all thy might, what art thou?
Lucifer: One who aspired to be what made thee, and would not
have made thee what thou art.
Cain : Ah! Thou look'st almost a god; and--
Lucifer: I am none:
and having fail'd to be one, would be nought but what
I am. He conquered; let him reign!
"Cain: A Mystery" - George Gordon, Lord Byron
==============================================================================
..............................................................................
Anthony Boyd ag...@chebucto.ns.ca Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Eclipse
Also, remember that the Tremere are rebelling. As such, they might rebel
against that whole elitist thing. Not that they are no longer elitist, but
one of the deals about being Sabbat is sect above clan. Also, don't
forget, the Serpents of the Light are also known to know Thaumaturgy.
-Eclipse
Sidewinder <mtst...@dpcmail.dukepower.com> wrote in article
<01bbfbf0$375598e0$1516...@TITAN.dukepower.com>...
> K Kuhn <kkn...@ecity.net> wrote in article <kknolte-
>
> > > In a game I am involved in, a semi-heated (meaning we haven't started
> > > including each other's mothers in the debate yet) debate has arisen
> > > regarding the proliferation of Sabbat Thaumaturgy within the Sabbat
>
> > There's also the argument that the Tzimisce at least were bound to have
> > it, and they taught it to everyone else. Against that, there is that
> > quote in the PGttS from the Tremere, "They learn very quickly. For
that
> > reason, we must be careful what we teach them." regarding the Tzimisce,
> > which argues that what thaum the Tzimisce had before the Tremere came
by
> > was fairly limited if they had it at all. (Though judging from what
I've
> > seen posted by Tzimisce players, they'll tell you that Tzimisce are as
> > good at Thaum as Tremere, so that might depend on the ST. Just out of
> > curiousity, does your opponent want to be Tzimisce?).
>
> No reason that both the Tzimisce and the Tremere can't both know
> thaumaturgy,
> and both know it well. They just know different versions & paths. Part
of
> what
> makes the Tremere so valuable to the the Sabbat is the knowledge they
> bring,
> and yes if they were to teach it to too many other clans then their
> presence
> would not be nearly so important. So the majority of the Sabbat would
have
>
> learned their thaumaturgy from the Tzimisce, who in turn would not have
> released
> their best stuff. So the Tzimisce try to learn as much of the Tremere
> thaumaturgy
> to maintian their current position in the Sabbat, while the Tremere take
> what
> they know, spreading only a little at a time, and add to that what the
> Tzimisce
> have let leek out. Both sides want what the other knows and does their
> best
> to prevent their secrets from spreading....
>
> --
> Sidewinder
>
> "The essence of Life is struggle and its goal is domination.
> There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist
> only within the mind of man. The reality of life is war."
>
> From The Way and the Power (Lovret, 1987 P1)
>
>
Loki
One day, it occurred to Johnny Mayall <ac...@jove.acs.unt.edu> to
write:
>On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, Loki wrote:
>> Yeah, yeah, I know. But... With Jyhad, it's fine. When you invent a
>> new word, you can give it a new meaning. Doesn't bother me.
>What new word is invented? Jyhad? Sorry, but that's a blatant play on
>another word.
Sure, but that's a common way of inventing a word.
Sigh. New words are based on old ones. That's how languages change.
>> Methuselah is a personal name. Using it as a noun is a slightly
>> strange thing to do, but generally OK.
>> What bugs me most is that most of the clan founders do qualify as
>> antediluvians, in the standard English meaning of the word. So... why
>> this insistence on Augustus and Tremere being antediluvians?
>> Especially since they're two people who would know better than to call
>> themselves that.
>Well, when you're discussing characters from a game, wouldn't it make
>sense to use that game's definitions of the word (as per Kestrel's post)?
It depends on the word.
Were White Wolf to redefine, say, the word "monster" to mean anything
that was red-coloured, I'd complain.
John H
f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>One day, it occurred to jmj...@nic.smsu.edu (Jeffryes Joshua M) to
>write:
<SNIP>
>Malkavians now have Dementation instead of Dominate (they have the
>Malkavian antitribu discipline mix).
Dang... Do I have to change my old NPC Malks now! I like Dominate
much better for them.
Ian Turner
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au wrote:
> Possibly different schools again. The Serpents are great with the Path
> of Corruption. But they're quite new to the Sabbat, and most of them
> are pretty young; they simply don't _know_ the higher levels of
> Thaumaturgy.
The normal Setites may be pretty hot at Corruption, but the
description of the Serpents of the Light suggests that they know a bit
of Thaumaturgy as a result of their past as voudon houngans. From what
I know of vodoun, Spirit Thaumaturgy seems more their bag.
Ian Turner.
Crystal Odenkirk
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au wrote:
: That doesn't have a bearing on whether or not they learn Thaumaturgy.
: Their hatred for the Tremere is based on the fact that the Tremere stole
: their powers from the Tzimisce to begin with, _not_ because the Tzimisce
: despise Thaumaturgy.
Not just their powers, but Thaumaturgy itself...
That would make me obsess, that's for sure.
I'd suspect that the Tzimisce would be _glad_ to
: learn as much Thaumaturgy as possible - it lets them beat their rivals
: at their own game, and it makes the Tremere unnecessary to the Sabbat.
: The Tremere antitribu are a small group, not well trusted, and they are
: easily detected by other Tremere; the only reason the Sabbat gives them
: shelter is because they provide the Sabbat with thaumaturgists. This is
: why the Tzimisce want to assert their mastery of Thaumaturgy, and it's
: also why the Tremere won't share with the Tzimisce...
High rank within the clan is dependant upon learning Thaumaturgy. Yet
another reason to obsess...
: My suspicion is that the Sabbat have two different "schools" of
: Thaumaturgy, the Tremere and Tzimisce schools, and that neither school
: likes to share with the other.
<g>
Why did I suddenly have a flashback to middle school rivalries...?
crys
sv...@ll.mit.edu
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au wrote:
>: That doesn't have a bearing on whether or not they learn Thaumaturgy.
>: Their hatred for the Tremere is based on the fact that the Tremere
>: stole their powers from the Tzimisce to begin with, _not_ because the >: Tzimisce despise Thaumaturgy.
I'm not quite sure what you meant to say here, Geoffrey -- do you mean
that:
(a) Tremere stole 'their powers' (immortality, vampirism) from the
Tzimisce?
(b) Or that Tremere stole 'their powers' (Thaumaturgy) from the
Tzimisce?
I agree with the first (it's WW canon, after all -- Goratrix subdues a
powerful Tzimisce Elder, forces him to make Progeny (that will be easier
to subdue and experiment upon in the future than this crafty dangerous
Elder), then destroys the Elder and performs all manner of unsavory
experiments (including Gargoyle creation and potions from their vitae)
on the two Childer), and I believe that's a plenty valid reason for the
Tzimisce to hate the Tremere.
I'm not sure, however, that the second is true -- it could just as
easily be true that the Black Hand originally discovered Thaumaturgy,
passing it on to Tzimisce, or _both_ lines rediscovered it from ancient
lore and manuals independently, or there were wizards of the Order of
Hermes in both groups (note that both Tremere AND Tzimisce claim their
founders were Mages in life, and perhaps even in undeath), or that Caine
created the Discipline, and anyone claiming to have invented it since is
blowing smoke, or that it all happened like the Tremere claim. ;)
>: My suspicion is that the Sabbat have two different "schools" of
>: Thaumaturgy, the Tremere and Tzimisce schools, and that neither
>: school likes to share with the other.
And I think the Clanbooks back you up on this, at least -- the whys and
wherefores of how both 'schools' arose, however, are what we potentially
disagree about.
-- S. Skoog
Loki
One day, it occurred to jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (John H) to write:
>f3...@unb.ca (Loki) wrote:
>>Malkavians now have Dementation instead of Dominate (they have the
>>Malkavian antitribu discipline mix).
>Dang... Do I have to change my old NPC Malks now! I like Dominate
>much better for them.
Well, of course you don't.
The fact that Dark Ages Malkavians have Dementation is really not very
important to the setting at all. I've often considered just writing it
out, but it was useful for my own purposes to leave it the way it was.
If I wanted my DA Malkavians to have Dominate, then by begorrah... :)
Loki
One day, it occurred to gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au () to write:
<useless Tremere/Tzimisce arguing over Thaumaturgy snipped>
This is all my fault, of course, but I really have to admit... I've
been a touch on the foolish side. I forgot the reference in V:tDA, but
the rest of this whole discussion is very much an anything goes kind
of situation... to a large extent, we're talking about things that WW
has left vague, and so will vary from Storyteller to Storyteller.
>>I think a lot of them would be more interested in Necromancy,
>>particularly among the necronomists.
>Nah. No true Tzimisce lets people _die_.
That's the whole point of Necromancy; you never have to. :)
>>You want some Thaumaturgy, go talk to a Serpent of the Light. Or maybe
>>even an Assamite.
>
>Possibly different schools again. The Serpents are great with the Path
>of Corruption. But they're quite new to the Sabbat, and most of them are
>pretty young; they simply don't _know_ the higher levels of Thaumaturgy.
>The Assamite antitribu might know some Thaumaturgy, but my impression
>was that most of the Assamites' Thaumaturgy was developed in the attempt
>to break the Curse. If that's the case, then it wouldn't apply to the
>antitribu (who never submitted to the Curse in the first place.)
I'd think the Serpents would have a decent understanding of
Thaumaturgy from their mortal existences; many of them were houngans.
The Serpent share-and-enjoy principle would cause them to have
developed quite a lot more by now, I should think.
The Assamites are portrayed as being rather mysterious. In some* of my
settings (I adopt a slightly different setting for each Chronicle), I
cue the Assamites in as being one of the oldest practitioners of
Thaumaturgy.
It makes sense, in a way. It certainly is a Discipline that fits into
their culture quite well.
>>Although, there are probably more than a few Tzimisce practicing Dark
>>Thaumaturgy. But that wasn't what you really meant, was it? :)
>I tend to think that the Tzimisce produce no more Dark Thaumaturgists
>than the other clans. They're certainly _evil_, but they're not the type
>to willingly accept a new master in exchange for power. The Lasombra,
>now...
Yeah, but I could see a Tzimisce doing it for kicks. ;)
Not to say that the Lasombra are innocent.
gbr...@rsc.anu.edu.au
>One thing that bugs me is that if the Tzimisce are so 'into'
>Thaumaturgy, why is it not one of their clan disciplines? I could easily
>see them not having Animalism, with Thau instead as a clan discipline.
>Obviously the Tzimisce don't see fit to pass on their mastery of
>Thaumaturgy to their childe, so obviously they did not see it as
>important as Animalism. Strange realy.
You can't look at a set of clan disciplines and assume that that's what
the clan care about most. They may not have a _choice_ as to what
tendencies are passed on with their blood. It's the nature/nurture
argument again.
Geoffrey Brent
--
gbr...@rscsun.anu.edu.au