Sabbat held cities?
The Motive
I was flipping through my Vampire: The Masquerade "Revised Edition", and I read
something about the Sabbat. To quote:
"Mexico City, Detroit, Miami and Montreal are all under the purview of the
Sabbat. Cities in contention include New York; Washington, DC; Buffalo, and
Atlanta."
Now, my question is: "When did New York become contested?" I mean, wasn't it,
like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States? I'm just wondering if there
are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha it
once was.
- The Motive
--
Quinn:"But you can't leave me here with those...those yuppies!"
Daria:"Yuppies Are From The 80's."
Quinn:"So what do you call those people with funny outfits who talk about peace
and love and stuff?"
Daria: "Trekkies."
--
Justin Mohareb
The Motive (them...@aol.com) writes:
> "Mexico City, Detroit, Miami and Montreal are all under the purview of the
> Sabbat. Cities in contention include New York; Washington, DC; Buffalo, and
> Atlanta."
>
> Now, my question is: "When did New York become contested?" I mean, wasn't it,
> like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States? I'm just wondering if there
> are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha it
> once was.
Heh. Okay, A) It's Mecca. A Mecha is a giant Robot, and I can't imagine
how big New York would be.
B) World of Darkness 2 put the lie to the Sabbat propaganda that they
control New York. I mean, do you honestly think the Camarilla would let
the Sabbat control Wall St. & Madison Avenue?
JJ Mohareb
--
Read the Bitter Guide to Science Fiction and Fantasy at
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/bitterjul98.html
Edition eight is on the streets!
The Motive
>B) World of Darkness 2 put the lie to the Sabbat propaganda that they
>control New York. I mean, do you honestly think the Camarilla would let
>the Sabbat control Wall St. & Madison Avenue?
Ahem, I've read "World of Darkness 2nd Edition", and just because the Camarilla
owns one city block does mean that all of New York City is "contested". Give me
some better logic, people, besides dribble from "World of Darkness" books.
FalconFang
>it,
>> like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States?
>B) World of Darkness 2 put the lie to the Sabbat propaganda that they
>control New York. I mean, do you honestly think the Camarilla would let
>the Sabbat control Wall St. & Madison Avenue?
New York City has always been a center of power struggle between the Sabbat and
Camarilla. Various Sabbat bishops and such from there have died trying to take
the financial and entertainment areas of NYC. A few novels have used NYC as a
location and have highlighted just how large of a scale this hidden war is.
As for Washigton DC, if Marcus Vital is still prince, it is Sabbat comtrolled
in my mind. I really hate that little sucker.
dan...@my-dejanews.com
> Ahem, I've read "World of Darkness 2nd Edition", and just because the
Camarilla
> owns one city block does mean that all of New York City is "contested". Give
me
> some better logic, people, besides dribble from "World of Darkness" books.
>
> - The Motive
> --
itself up quite a bit, crime is WAY down, it is slowly becoming a safer city.
City Hall has made a mission out of reform. That is plenty of reason for New
York to be a contested city in 1998. Things change over time. I really don't
think the Sabbat would want Time Square cleaned up, yet it is.
Denzil
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
AndroidCat
>
>> Ahem, I've read "World of Darkness 2nd Edition", and just because the
>Camarilla
>> owns one city block does mean that all of New York City is "contested".
Give
>me
>> some better logic, people, besides dribble from "World of Darkness"
books.
>>
>> - The Motive
>> --
>Look at the strides New York has made in the last 5 years. It has cleaned
>itself up quite a bit, crime is WAY down, it is slowly becoming a safer
city.
>City Hall has made a mission out of reform. That is plenty of reason for
New
>York to be a contested city in 1998. Things change over time. I really
don't
>think the Sabbat would want Time Square cleaned up, yet it is.
Who says a Sabbat city can't be clean, safe and tidy?
After all, Toronto is supposed to be Sabbat held...
/\<.
Sylas
The Motive wrote in message
<19981118162910...@ng-fb2.aol.com>...
>Evenin'. Or whatever.
>
>I was flipping through my Vampire: The Masquerade "Revised Edition", and I
read
>something about the Sabbat. To quote:
>
>Sabbat. Cities in contention include New York; Washington, DC; Buffalo, and
>Atlanta."
>
it,
there
>are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha
it
>once was.
>
>--
>Quinn:"But you can't leave me here with those...those yuppies!"
>Daria:"Yuppies Are From The 80's."
>Quinn:"So what do you call those people with funny outfits who talk about
peace
>and love and stuff?"
>Daria: "Trekkies."
>--
From Mike Nelson
New York has always been contested. It is ture that thre is a strong sabbat
presence in most of the Burroughs except Manhatten.
Where the Tremere Regent/Prince has been given the Authroity to Sire as many
Get as She wishes. Sence She is a Seventh generation
Manhaten is up to is hip in eighth Gen Tremere. Also Don Cruz the Justicar
has decied to take over parts of New York City Proper and
the Giovanni have a large Presence in the City as well so the Sabbat never
had total control of the City and The Cammarillia hasa most
probley came to the conclusion that New York is far to valueable to give or
to the Sabbat.
MagianChua
Shared one..
You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
York?
NYC is the closest thing to the Technocratic Ideal city on this planet, well
perhaps San Francisco....
in any event, there are other forces at work besides the Camrilla and the
Sabbat..and they have a stake in NYC as well...
Avatar9000
for financial reasons but for "territory" much like the garou contest
territory. These are their feeding grounds and much to anybodies dismay that
is pretty much it. The $yndicate are not "vying" for control, they have it.
The vampires may or may not realize it but they do not control all of the
financial, media, and hospitals. The Technocracy like the camirilla, they are
maintaining the masquerade, they do not like most garou for they want to
destroy what the technocracy has been working for.
AVATARMIKE MAGE FANATIC AND DEVILS ADVOCATE
larry Bernard
Assuming wod 2ed is still legit Here is THE deal
The cammy vamps rule manhateen island
but the nostferatu are building it as a fort
Possibly for abisimilard possibly and mayhaps unknowingly for the
tzimcse antidelluvian
Techies are bigger then jesus there
glass walkers and bonegnawers are huge two
the other burrows and the bronx are ran by the sabbat
The shadow lords have a big base there which is getting bigger
The settites are big in harlem.....
KidAnarky
:
: Who says a Sabbat city can't be clean, safe and tidy?
:
: After all, Toronto is supposed to be Sabbat held...
But TO is widely regarded at the meanest Canadian city, eh?
Of course, what's mean to a Canuck is downright saintly to an
american, so this can only mean it's ruled by canadian sabbat...
--
Ste'phane Savoie ana...@eyrie.org stsa...@freenet.hut.fi
-- Convictions cause Convicts - Reality is the original Rorschach Blot --
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
> Shared one..
> You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
> York?
> NYC is the closest thing to the Technocratic Ideal city on this planet, well
> perhaps San Francisco....
> in any event, there are other forces at work besides the Camrilla and the
> Sabbat..and they have a stake in NYC as well...
The problem here lies in many assumptions.
Keep in mind that:
The Vampires do not *rule*, *control*, or whatever. They influence.
Vampiric influence exists for primarily two reasons:
1) To protect the Masquerade
2) to strike at one's enemies.
Neither of these goals particularly conflicts with Technocracy agendas.
Indeed, both support the Technos. The first hides knowledge of the
supernatural from the sleepers and the second keeps the supernatural threat
focused on each other.
The other assumption is that mages rule, control or whatever. Like
vampires, they influence. However, their influence has a different focus,
and there are far, far fewer of them than there are vampires.
For the most part, I think vampires lay under the Technocracy's radar.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|It's 106 miles to Stygia, we've
Madelynne (Malkavian) |got 20 oboli, half a tank of pathos
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|and we're wearing soulfire masks.
man...@geocities.com
Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> MagianChua wrote:
> >
> > People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
> > Shared one..
> > You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
> > York?
> > NYC is the closest thing to the Technocratic Ideal city on this planet, well
> > perhaps San Francisco....
> > in any event, there are other forces at work besides the Camrilla and the
> > Sabbat..and they have a stake in NYC as well...
>
> The problem here lies in many assumptions.
>
> Keep in mind that:
>
> The Vampires do not *rule*, *control*, or whatever. They influence.
> Vampiric influence exists for primarily two reasons:
>
> 1) To protect the Masquerade
> 2) to strike at one's enemies.
>
> Neither of these goals particularly conflicts with Technocracy agendas.
> Indeed, both support the Technos. The first hides knowledge of the
> supernatural from the sleepers and the second keeps the supernatural threat
> focused on each other.
>
> The other assumption is that mages rule, control or whatever. Like
> vampires, they influence. However, their influence has a different focus,
> and there are far, far fewer of them than there are vampires.
>
> For the most part, I think vampires lay under the Technocracy's radar.
Most Vampire's political powers is very limited geogaphically. The Prince is
concerened with his city. All his interest lie in investing his power and
influence there. Its what he is incharge of and responsible for after all.
This is true for the other vampiric inhabitants as well. They will focus on
things like the Major, the local police, local radio stations and newspapers,
the city morgue and so on. Vampires really don't get any benefit from
influence overmortals outside of their city very much, as they are often
pretty static. Its a question of what sort of payback they get for their
efforts.
By contrast the Technocracy are looking at the bog picture. They are
stretched too thin to worry about local majors or small scale issues. They
are trying to change the world and thats where theier focus is. Global
economy, money markets, mass media, education programs and so forth. In
contrast to Vampires many Mage's Chantries exist in several cities at once
and given the limited man power its unlikey a Mage would spend all their time
in the same city.
Nothing stops a vampire influencing large scale events or a Mage small scale
ones. But in terms of helping them reach their goals they results are unlikely
to be worth the efforts, especially when they could be applied to something
more rewarding.
Mant
--
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
James Kiley
>People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
>Shared one..
No. Many people prefer to think of each individual game standing separately,
rather than inflicting the Mage paradigm on all the other games.
jk
Matthew Hickey
> People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
> Shared one..
Except the developers are starting to work away from that. There are some
of us who *like* single noun:theNoun games and don't like things disolving
into crossover pissing contests.
> You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
> York?
Would they care? Yes, but look at it this way - there are very few
technos, and they have a different set of threat priorities (ie. to a
mundane human, a Sabbat vamp is more dangerous than that New Age crystal geek
trying to use palm reading to pick up chicks at the bar... the guys in
black hats think very differently).
> in any event, there are other forces at work besides the Camrilla and the
> Sabbat..and they have a stake in NYC as well...
They are fighting their own battles with the Renegades/Spectres/Black
Spirals/Pentex (for a holding company they seem to have a lot of Pentex
employees)7th gen (if they are still around)/ Banality-laden Autumn prople
(and there are a lot in this discussion) /each other /etc.
Matthew.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Hickey
Carleton University - WS/Soc (H) II
Hold onto nothing as fast as you can.
Email address: mhi...@chat.carleton.ca, matthe...@hotmail.com
ICQ#21240345 - Tiama'at
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cjseelist
Matthew Hickey wrote:
> MagianChua (magia...@aol.com) wrote:
> > People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
> > Shared one..
>
> Except the developers are starting to work away from that. There are some
> of us who *like* single noun:theNoun games and don't like things disolving
> into crossover pissing contests.
>
> > You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
> > York?
>
> Would they care? Yes, but look at it this way - there are very few
> technos, and they have a different set of threat priorities (ie. to a
> mundane human, a Sabbat vamp is more dangerous than that New Age crystal geek
> trying to use palm reading to pick up chicks at the bar... the guys in
> black hats think very differently).
Actually I think there are enough mages in the technocracy who retain suffificent
vestiges of the technocracy's true motive (to protect and advance humanity - i.e.
the HUMAN BEINGS) that they would find the Sabbat (as written) intolerable, even
if concentrating on events outside their city. I don't the think the Sabbat would
thrive in a city with a strong Technocratic presence - the mages wouldn't declare
all out war against the vampires (at least I wouldn't expect it) but their
response to individual threats and situations would make any city more amiable to
the Camarilla. Or would drive the sabbat to make the city more amiable for the
more "mind your own buisness hide in the shadows" traditions.
cjseelist
Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
> MagianChua wrote:
> >
> > People seem to be forgetting that this Wonderful World of Darkness is also a
> > Shared one..
> > You really think the Technocracy would stand for the Sabbat to take over New
> > York?
> > NYC is the closest thing to the Technocratic Ideal city on this planet, well
> > perhaps San Francisco....
> > in any event, there are other forces at work besides the Camrilla and the
> > Sabbat..and they have a stake in NYC as well...
>
> The problem here lies in many assumptions.
>
> Keep in mind that:
>
> The Vampires do not *rule*, *control*, or whatever. They influence.
> Vampiric influence exists for primarily two reasons:
>
> 1) To protect the Masquerade
> 2) to strike at one's enemies.
>
> Neither of these goals particularly conflicts with Technocracy agendas.
> Indeed, both support the Technos. The first hides knowledge of the
> supernatural from the sleepers and the second keeps the supernatural threat
> focused on each other.
>
If speaking of the Camarilla. The Sabbat is less concerned with the masquerade
and would! like to rule.
>
> The other assumption is that mages rule, control or whatever. Like
> vampires, they influence. However, their influence has a different focus,
> and there are far, far fewer of them than there are vampires.
>
Why do you assume the vamps greatly outnumber the mages? I assume the numbers
would be about equal. Is there a canonical statement about the numbers of mages?
>
> For the most part, I think vampires lay under the Technocracy's radar.
>
MagianChua
>rather than inflicting the Mage paradigm on all the other games.
>
>jk
Oh the Mage Paradigm doesn't have to effect everything. They are wrong about
some thigns, as is everyone else.
So unless your deciding to ignore Chaos Factor, World of Darkness, the fact
that there is a Sabbat Vampire on the Pentex board as well as the previous
Giovanni vampire, the whole True Hand thing, the fact that Clan Tremere came
from the Order of hermes, the fact that House Tytalus had a treaty with Clan
Tzimisce back in the dark ages, the Danislavs being a Revenant family and
Kinfolk to the Shadowlords, Rage Across Russia with Baba Yaga, etc etc etc etc
etc etc etc.
Face it, they may not agree alot, but they are connected.
MagianChua
>of us who *like* single noun:theNoun games and don't like things disolving
>into crossover pissing contests.
Oh yes i know the developers are starting to work away from that. But the
connections have been name, and unless the year of the Reckoning intends to
Divide Reality amongst all the Games and spin each of them into separate
realities:
My World of Darkness will Endure.
>Would they care? Yes, but look at it this way - there are very few
>technos, and they have a different set of threat priorities (ie. to a
>mundane human, a Sabbat vamp is more dangerous than that New Age crystal
>geek
>trying to use palm reading to pick up chicks at the bar... the guys in
>black hats think very differently).
>
>
Oh, but here's the thing. the Mages are losing to the Technocrats already.
Besides, do you really think the Black Hats would turn a blind eye to a
"reality Deviant" who is terrorizing NYC?
I don't think so.
>They are fighting their own battles with the Renegades/Spectres/Black
>Spirals/Pentex (for a holding company they seem to have a lot of Pentex
>employees)7th gen (if they are still around)/ Banality-laden Autumn prople
>(and there are a lot in this discussion) /each other /etc.
>
>
Well first of, Pentex takes up much of the "Evil" Category. BSDs, Nephandi,
Sabbat Vampires, Giovanni Vamps(ok..previously), formori...they are all on teh
Board of Directors..they all co-ordinate their forces to some degree.
So while it may seem they are fighting different things, it really stems back
to a few common goals.....and common problems.
MagianChua
>suffificent
>vestiges of the technocracy's true motive (to protect and advance humanity -
>i.e.
>the HUMAN BEINGS) that they would find the Sabbat (as written) intolerable,
>even
Ditto. The Technocracy is just as big as a problem for all Supernaturals as is
Pentex.
I'm sure the Camarilla would be fine, but not the Sabbat. The Techies would
errode their power base in multiple ways besides all out war.
MagianChua
>The cammy vamps rule manhateen island
>but the nostferatu are building it as a fort
>Possibly for abisimilard possibly and mayhaps unknowingly for the
>tzimcse antidelluvian
>Techies are bigger then jesus there
>glass walkers and bonegnawers are huge two
>the other burrows and the bronx are ran by the sabbat
>The shadow lords have a big base there which is getting bigger
>The settites are big in harlem.....
Ahem, i think this settles my case. Welcome to the Wonderufl World of Darkness
eveyrone.....
It's here to stay.
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
>
> If speaking of the Camarilla. The Sabbat is less concerned with the masquerade
> and would! like to rule.
Tell me why the Technocracy would necessarily know this? And did you miss
my statement in which I said that the Camarilla's probably doing just fine
by keeping them in check?
> > The other assumption is that mages rule, control or whatever. Like
> > vampires, they influence. However, their influence has a different focus,
> > and there are far, far fewer of them than there are vampires.
>
> Why do you assume the vamps greatly outnumber the mages? I assume the numbers
> would be about equal. Is there a canonical statement about the numbers of mages?
I do not assume this. I know this. You can find numbers in Order of Hermes
and Syndicate.
MagianChua
>Vampiric influence exists for primarily two reasons:
>
>1) To protect the Masquerade
>2) to strike at one's enemies.
The Sabbat? Protect the masqurade? eh?
>Neither of these goals particularly conflicts with Technocracy agendas.
They are REality Deviants, not part of the plan. if they cause trouble.. They
must be concluded.
>Indeed, both support the Technos. The first hides knowledge of the
>supernatural from the sleepers and the second keeps the supernatural threat
>focused on each other.
The Camarilla would support the Techocracy.....
But the Sabbat? The Setites? I hardly think so, they are brutal, harsh, and
evil.
If they created a rukus large enough, then the local sabbat War Pack is going
to get gun downed by the Hit Marks, or the MIB.
I've always viewed the Technocracy and Pentex as the two greatest threats to
the Supernatural world.
The Technocracy's "Humans only, our way" attitude alienates pracitcally
everything that isn't human plus those who don't follow their way.
And don't get me started on Pentex... I still find it AMAZING that the worst of
the worst are able to sit down and Co-ordinate some projects togehter.
seriously, a Sabbat vampire, a BSD, Formori, corrupt humans, Spectres, and
Nephandi?
Why are the "bad" guys more organized??????????????
James Kiley
James Kiley wrote:
>MagianChua wrote:
>>the fact that there is a Sabbat Vampire on the Pentex board
>>as well as the previous Giovanni vampire
>
>What's Pentex? I run a Vampire game. [*]
>
>>Rage Across Russia with Baba Yaga
>
>Rage Across What? [*] [**] I run Vampire. Oh, and Baba Yaga's dead.
jk
[*] Yes, I am familiar with the topics in question; you don't have to
actually reply here.
[**] "Do they speak Bocce on WHAT?" -- Mace Windu [***]
[***] Go see the damned Phantom Menace trailer
James Kiley
>So unless your deciding to ignore Chaos Factor
I ignore anything with Sam Haight in it, sorry.
>World of Darkness
Not only do I ignore it, I don't even own it.
>the fact that there is a Sabbat Vampire on the Pentex board
>as well as the previous Giovanni vampire
What's Pentex? I run a Vampire game. [*]
>the whole True Hand thing
*BOOM* What True Hand thing? Oh, wait, I'm sorry, that's a crossover,
I can't use that as an excuse. Okay. *eerie silence* What True Hand
thing? Not only do I ignore DSOTBH, I don't even own it.
>the fact that Clan Tremere came from the Order of hermes
Watch carefully as I fit Clan Tremere into Vampire without using Mage:
Once upon a time, there were some wizards who did a magic ritual
to become vampires.
>the fact that House Tytalus had a treaty with Clan Tzimisce back
>in the dark ages
Once upon a time, there were some wizards who liked the Tzimisce.
>the Danislavs being a Revenant family and Kinfolk to the Shadowlords
Watch as I fit the Danislavs into Vampire without using Werewolf:
Once upon a time, there were Revenants that were related to
werewolves. They're all dead now.
>Rage Across Russia with Baba Yaga
Rage Across What? [*] [**] I run Vampire. Oh, and Baba Yaga's dead.
>Face it, they may not agree alot, but they are connected.
No, see, that's my problem with the tone of your postings. You insist
that because there are elements of certain games in other games,
they must be connected, they must all be the same world. I can have
werewolves in my Vampire game without having Werewolf: The Apocalypse
as part of my Vampire game. Do you see the difference?
jk
MagianChua
>that because there are elements of certain games in other games,
>they must be connected, they must all be the same world. I can have
>werewolves in my Vampire game without having Werewolf: The Apocalypse
>as part of my Vampire game. Do you see the difference?
>
>jk
What did you expect Jk? I'm a Canonist. So it is Written, so it is Done.
You can do that JK, it's your right to, but to me J...it wouldn't be Canon.
Tzimisce allied with House Tytalus in the Dark Ages...
Canon Demands that House Tytalus be the House Tytalus of the Mage game.
World of Darkness states that New York is held by a variety of Supernautral
Creatures NAMED.
The Bone Gnawers must be the Bone Gnawers of the Werewolf the Apocalypse game.
The Nosfertau will be the Nosferatu of the Vampire Game.
The Technocracy is the The Technocracy of the Mage Game.
***********************************
To me.. it's all Canon. Sure it drives me insane at times, sure I have players
who try to abuse it.....
But, i've already had this discussion with MariKali, and Mar knows that i'm
kooky already.
EvilTyger
>>Shared one..
>
>rather than inflicting the Mage paradigm on all the other games.
>
Why exactly is acknolwedgeing the existance of other supernatural races and
orginizations inflicting "the Mage paradigm" on them?
Paul F. Glenn
: Ahem, I've read "World of Darkness 2nd Edition", and just because the Camarilla
: owns one city block does mean that all of New York City is "contested". Give me
: some better logic, people, besides dribble from "World of Darkness" books.
Well what is the definition of "contested" if it isn't "One groups parts, another group
controls other parts"? Or do you think that the Sabbat and Camarilla are peacefully
coexisting in NYC?
James Kiley
On 20 Nov 1998, MagianChua wrote:
> >I can have werewolves in my Vampire game without having Werewolf: The
> >Apocalypse as part of my Vampire game. Do you see the difference?
>
> What did you expect Jk? I'm a Canonist. So it is Written, so it is Done.
Call me James, if you like. Or Kiley. :)
You know, that's putting an awful lot of faith in White Wolf's writers to
put together things that fit your Chronicle. I prefer to exercise a
little of my own discrtion in my game.
> You can do that JK, it's your right to, but to me J...it wouldn't be Canon.
Neither would any plot element you introduce yourself that isn't
published. Come on, that's not an argument at all, it almost immediately
reduces to nonsense.
> Tzimisce allied with House Tytalus in the Dark Ages...
>
> Canon Demands that House Tytalus be the House Tytalus of the Mage game.
It does? You show me, chapter and page, where it says "the House Tytalus
with which the Tzimisce allied is a subset of the Order of Hermes
Tradition from Mage: The Ascension". I doubt it exists.
jk
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> >The Vampires do not *rule*, *control*, or whatever. They influence.
> >Vampiric influence exists for primarily two reasons:
> >
> >1) To protect the Masquerade
> >2) to strike at one's enemies.
>
> The Sabbat? Protect the masqurade? eh?
The Sabbat do not violate the Masquerade casually in their own homes.
That's a tactic they use against the Camarilla to tie *them* up in knots.
Even so, the Camarilla takes care of the worst of the Sabbat excesses.
> >Neither of these goals particularly conflicts with Technocracy agendas.
>
> They are REality Deviants, not part of the plan. if they cause trouble.. They
> must be concluded.
That is so simplistic, it really is. The Technocracy cannot afford all out
war with the Sabbat, and that's what they'll get if they go charging in.
They have other agendas which are much more important and less likely to be
taken care of by balancing factors (like the Camarilla).
> >Indeed, both support the Technos. The first hides knowledge of the
> >supernatural from the sleepers and the second keeps the supernatural threat
> >focused on each other.
>
> The Camarilla would support the Techocracy.....
I doubt they'd support each other openly - I doubt the Camarilla even knows
about the Technos. What I do expect is that they tend to support each other
nicely with their respective policies, aware of it or not.
> But the Sabbat? The Setites? I hardly think so, they are brutal, harsh, and
> evil.
The Setites are brutal, harsh and evil? I don't think so. The Setites are
the "Win Friends and Influence People" clan. Sure, they're evil by most
standards and their initations are harsh - but I suspect they have more
reason to maintain the Masquerade than even the Camarilla. As for the
Sabbat, see above... I mean, why *haven't* the Sabbat broken the Masquerade
wide open by now if they care so little for it?
> If they created a rukus large enough, then the local sabbat War Pack is going
> to get gun downed by the Hit Marks, or the MIB.
I doubt it...I suspect their own internal policing force will get to them
before even the Camarilla.
> I've always viewed the Technocracy and Pentex as the two greatest threats to
> the Supernatural world.
If you say so. I disagree.
> The Technocracy's "Humans only, our way" attitude alienates pracitcally
> everything that isn't human plus those who don't follow their way.
You're oversimplifying again.
> And don't get me started on Pentex... I still find it AMAZING that the worst of
> the worst are able to sit down and Co-ordinate some projects togehter.
You do realize that none of the Pentex BoD have free will any longer, do
you? You do realize that even so, they still clash on many fronts, and that
this alone may sabotage their operations?
> seriously, a Sabbat vampire, a BSD, Formori, corrupt humans, Spectres, and
> Nephandi?
> Why are the "bad" guys more organized??????????????
It's all explained in the books you haven't read closely.
Marizhavashti Kali
There are degrees. When one insists that every game must fit the Mage
cosmology, at the expense of theme and atmosphere, then you inflict the
Mage Paradigm on them.
If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
Now, doing this is fine. Starting huge threads over it...that's just rude.
Katherine L. Manfre
: > orginizations inflicting "the Mage paradigm" on them?
: There are degrees. When one insists that every game must fit the Mage
: cosmology, at the expense of theme and atmosphere, then you inflict the
: Mage Paradigm on them.
: If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
: Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
But those of us who play it as the "white Wolf" universe (not just one
subsection) don't necessarily "inflict" anything on it. A mage may try to
explain something in terms he understands, his own paradigm usually, but
that doesn't "inflict" that paradigm on what's being explained.
It's just like one tradition explaining the actions of another
tradition... it takes a lot more than a description to force a paradigm on
something or someone.
As for a ST doing it in game, it's often called "I'm running Mage.
You're all mages. Don't confuse the mechanics with stuff that you don't
need to."
feochadan - firm believe that the world of darkness should be a whole
world, not just a couple supplements.
Jason Corley
There is no Sabbat. The Sabbat holds no cities. All cities are Camarilla
cities. Go to any city and ask around. Camarilla. Right down the line.
(this message is brought to you by the sabbat)
--
************************************************************************
"To die for an idea; it is unquestionably noble. But how much nobler
it would be if men died for ideas that were true!" ---H. L. Mencken
Jason "cor...@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu" Corley was seen fleeing the scene.
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> But those of us who play it as the "white Wolf" universe (not just one
> subsection) don't necessarily "inflict" anything on it. A mage may try to
> explain something in terms he understands, his own paradigm usually, but
> that doesn't "inflict" that paradigm on what's being explained.
The problem here is that we're not even talking about the same thing. Your
lecture is great on its own terms, but you're just not addressing what I
was talking about.
The Motive
>cities. Go to any city and ask around. Camarilla. Right down the line.
That's a, uh, bold statement. Mind backing that up with something?
- The Motive
--
Quinn:"But you can't leave me here with those...those yuppies!"
Daria:"Yuppies Are From The 80's."
Quinn:"So what do you call those people with funny outfits who talk about peace
and love and stuff?"
Daria: "Trekkies."
--
David The CyberGuineaPig Jacobs
>"Mexico City, Detroit, Miami and Montreal are all under the purview of the
>Sabbat. Cities in contention include New York; Washington, DC; Buffalo, and
>Atlanta."
>
>Now, my question is: "When did New York become contested?" I mean, wasn't it,
>like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States? I'm just wondering if there
>are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha it
>once was.
IIRC, the Camarilla control Manhattan; the Bronx, Queens and Staten
Island are Sabbat-controlled. Brooklyn is a contested ground, mostly
controlled by Giovanni and Setites (the latter also control Harlem).
Finally, Central Park is controlled by Lupines. See "World of
Darkness, 2nd Ed for further details.
David "The CyberGuineaPig" Jacobs
-- dmja...@zipworld.com.au --
Proudly subverting Australia's political
system in the name of the Mythos.
man...@geocities.com
Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> cjseelist wrote:
> >
> > Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
> >
> > If speaking of the Camarilla. The Sabbat is less concerned with the
masquerade
> > and would! like to rule.
>
> Tell me why the Technocracy would necessarily know this? And did you miss
> my statement in which I said that the Camarilla's probably doing just fine
> by keeping them in check?
>
> > > The other assumption is that mages rule, control or whatever. Like
> > > vampires, they influence. However, their influence has a different focus,
> > > and there are far, far fewer of them than there are vampires.
> >
> > Why do you assume the vamps greatly outnumber the mages? I assume the
numbers
> > would be about equal. Is there a canonical statement about the numbers of
mages?
>
> I do not assume this. I know this. You can find numbers in Order of Hermes
> and Syndicate.
>
> Deird'Re M. Brooks |xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
> Lydia Morales (Brujah)|It's 106 miles to Stygia, we've
> Madelynne (Malkavian) |got 20 oboli, half a tank of pathos
> Sif Stormbringer (Get)|and we're wearing soulfire masks.
Or Hidden Lore where it says between 2000 and 10,000. The 1 per million figure
is also mentioned in a few places.
Even at it largest, thats a lot less than the 60,000+ vamps.
man...@geocities.com
James Kiley <ten...@io.com> wrote:
> > Tzimisce allied with House Tytalus in the Dark Ages...
> >
> > Canon Demands that House Tytalus be the House Tytalus of the Mage game.
>
> It does? You show me, chapter and page, where it says "the House Tytalus
> with which the Tzimisce allied is a subset of the Order of Hermes
> Tradition from Mage: The Ascension". I doubt it exists.
>
> jk
No but the back of my vampire book tells me for more detail on Mages, see
Mage:the Ascenstion.
lich...@my-dejanews.com
Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > Why exactly is acknolwedgeing the existance of other supernatural races and
> > orginizations inflicting "the Mage paradigm" on them?
>
> There are degrees. When one insists that every game must fit the Mage
> cosmology, at the expense of theme and atmosphere, then you inflict the
> Mage Paradigm on them.
>
> If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
Here here.. Very True... Try'n to explain any one group by another's system,
is just like a Christian try'n to teach people about Paganism, in christian
terms.. it just don't work...
> Now, doing this is fine. Starting huge threads over it...that's just rude.
YES!!.. Exactly.. And that is one of the Biggest turn-off about Mage to new
players... They think it is all system.. (atleast when they have browsed this
NG) because the only thing that is talked about.. (or atleast Seems to be) is
how all powerfull MAgI are and how if I user 3Spheres of MAtter and 2 of Life
and 5 of OhMyGod then I can turn a Vampire into a Nice little book case, full
of books...
I know for a Fact that if a Mage tried to pull that or anything all-too-
powerfull(tm) in one of my stories Their Difficulty goes up... Period... no
ammount of Quientessence will save them that... there is just something -Too-
Mystical about the supernaturals.. almost a (to use Mage Terms) NAtural
counter magic... Now I don't do this if it is a simple MAgical attack, just
if they try to pull the wool over my eyes with this Big-Ego stuff...
Mage was best discribed as an Ego-Check game (by my Mage ST) In other words,
when the mage player get's too big on them self, the system usualy unleashed
paradox on the person and puts them in their place..
But I Digress...
-The LichKing
Clan and house Tremere, 1 Million Served
blak...@technologist.com
> > Why exactly is acknolwedgeing the existance of other supernatural races and
> > orginizations inflicting "the Mage paradigm" on them?
>
> There are degrees. When one insists that every game must fit the Mage
> cosmology, at the expense of theme and atmosphere, then you inflict the
> Mage Paradigm on them.
Sure, but as long as you don't change the other games are how they
work, there's nothing wrong with examining them from the PoV of WoD
cosmology. The only thing that might change is how Mages relate to
the other critters. For instance, if you decide that the Embrace
destroys the Avatar, than mages should treat Vampires as souless
monsters (Much as Garou treat the Leeches as creatures of the Wyrm)...
but it wouldn't have any bearing on the mechanics or atmosphere of
Vampire.
> If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way -
They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a different
system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
/Fortitude/...
> Now, doing this is fine. Starting huge threads over it...that's just rude.
How huge a thread gets has little to do with the person who started it...
However, there is a.g.ww.m for those whose servers carry it...
--
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
|
---|-.
'-|---
lich...@my-dejanews.com
blak...@technologist.com wrote:
> In article <365743BD...@teleport.com>,
> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > EvilTyger wrote:
> Sure, but as long as you don't change the other games are how they
> work, there's nothing wrong with examining them from the PoV of WoD
> cosmology.
See, I hope I am miss understanding this statement... Simply put, IMHO There
is no "PoV of WoD" Just in that statement it sounded like you were say'n
that the Mage PoV is the PoV of the WoD... I hope you don't mean that..
because that OOC aditude is exactly what this Thread is about... analysing
all other Critters in the WoD as if all they did or where was part of the
Mage Paradigum.. IE The Venture are really servents of the Technocracy and
they just don't realize it yet... YAdda.. and I guess I'll be the 2nd or 3rd
or 15th to say No... there is not one group that 'Runs' the world of
darkness.. not even the celistiens..
The WoD is about Chaos... some Groups Try and build order and some try to
remove it, while the rest just exsist... Yes, in some places one group may be
effected by another groups actions...
A Pack of Garou run wild through a town, attracking hunters who find the
Kindered that were lay'n low.. Ooops..
> > If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> > Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
>
> Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way -
um... no.. I would have to dissagree.. simply on this NG there have been a
few threads that try to explain how vampire blood can be made with xyz
spheres, and another that talks about turning a vampire into furnature..
(granted i did not read that one) and I guarontee that there have been
others that try to explain away everything from discipline useage and how why
it does not generate paradox to the explination of why Vitae, gnosis and tass
are all the same thing..
> They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a different
> system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
> 'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
> consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
> changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
> WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
> /Fortitude/...
And Vampires were no longer the creation of a Curse from god.. but an avatar
gone Wrong...? Hello pot, this is Cettle.. your BLACK..
Well as for WoD:Sorcerer.. (Which I liked) I feel that it is a realy nice
addition and a good way to explain say... Voodoo, Druidism, and other
Ritualistic belife sets that have nothing to do with the all powerfull Will
Worker who has the wohs of a world that does not belive in them anymore.. due
to their corruption and abuse.. and when ever they try to do something that is
truly unbeliveable the entire Earth jumps up and smacks them for it..
I hate to say it but It's called balance people.. Yes, B a l a n c e, Balance!
Garou have their Strengths and spiritual powers, but they also have no choice
but to Die in an attempt to save the world from itself..
The Vampires have time on their side, and some Disciplines that allow them to
do some pretty cool things, but they are no longer ALIVE!!!.. no childeren,
No Emotions, no food, and more then that they are FEARED by all mortals in
their right mind.. when they are displayed openly they are hunted down and
distroied.. and they have no choice but to degrade slowly over time loosing
the battle for their own Sanaty...
and Then you have MAge.. the last of the Trinity.. (yes, Wyld, Wyrm, and Them
the Wever. The WW Designers were not that stupid.)
The Life of the Magi is also dificult, They know that Reality is nothing but
a lie... only it's a personal lie.. it's not the Lie that Everything is false
it's the Lie that everything isn't the way that YOU (yes the MAge) Think it
should be... You can change this.. Oh yes you can... but you need to
becarefull and go slow... otherwise you will be notice by the collective
unconcious and punnished for your attempt to Weave your web of reality out
side of the Norm...
I don't mean to yell, or lecture.. just make a simple point.. and that is that
one group on the WoD is not any more 'Right' then any other group... for all
they know they are all wrong and the mysteries will never get answered..
I like Hearing the Mage PoV but it is not the ONLY PoV and it is not the Right
PoV.. none of them are..
-Lichking
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> In article <365743BD...@teleport.com>,
> Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> > cosmology, at the expense of theme and atmosphere, then you inflict the
> > Mage Paradigm on them.
>
> work, there's nothing wrong with examining them from the PoV of WoD
> the other critters. For instance, if you decide that the Embrace
> destroys the Avatar, than mages should treat Vampires as souless
> monsters (Much as Garou treat the Leeches as creatures of the Wyrm)...
> but it wouldn't have any bearing on the mechanics or atmosphere of
> Vampire.
That's why I said "at the expense of theme and atmosphere." Your exception
here was already covered in my post.
> > If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> > Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
>
> Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way -
> They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a different
> system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
> 'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
> consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
> changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
> WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
> /Fortitude/...
WoD: Sorcerer uses hedge magic for all of the game lines. It appeared first
in Vampire - but - Vampire was the only game when it first appeared.
> > Now, doing this is fine. Starting huge threads over it...that's just rude.
>
> How huge a thread gets has little to do with the person who started it...
> However, there is a.g.ww.m for those whose servers carry it...
No, it has everything to do with huge replies which don't exactly relate to
the original post, but are written to sound clever and esoteric. Or
something.
> --
> Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
> |
> ---|-.
> '-|---
> |
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
blak...@technologist.com
lich...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <73cd9b$4d8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> blak...@technologist.com wrote:
> > In article <365743BD...@teleport.com>,
> > Marizhavashti Kali <xe...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > Sure, but as long as you don't change the other games are how they
> > work, there's nothing wrong with examining them from the PoV of WoD
> > cosmology.
> See, I hope I am miss understanding this statement...
No, it's just not the statement I was trying to make (damn typos!).
I was composing as I typed and I was trying to say something like
'Mage PoV of the WoD' or 'WoD cosmology from the Mage PoV' or something
and I mistyped. This is what I was trying to say:
Sure, but as long as you don't change the other games [or] how they
work, there's nothing wrong with examining [Vampires, Werewolves,
etc..] from the PoV of [Mage] cosmology [ie Consensual Reality, and
the Metaphysic of Magick].
(Really sorry about the confusion there...)
> > > If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> > > Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
> >
> > Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way
>
> um... no.. I would have to dissagree.. simply on this NG there have been a
> few threads that try to explain how vampire blood can be made with xyz
> spheres, and another that talks about turning a vampire into furnature..
> (granted i did not read that one) and I guarontee that there have been
> others that try to explain away everything from discipline useage and how why
> it does not generate paradox to the explination of why Vitae, gnosis and tass
> are all the same thing..
Sure, that's the NG.... the NG is just fans chatting with eachother. But,
when you look at the stuff WW publishes, Mage is continually retconned
to match the other games:
> > They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a
different
> > system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
> > 'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
> > consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
> > changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
> > WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
> > /Fortitude/...
>
> And Vampires were no longer the creation of a Curse from god.. but an avatar
> gone Wrong...? Hello pot, this is Cettle.. your BLACK..
Never saw that anywhere... I do remember the whole Cain-was-a-RedCap
thing from Changeling, but that was the only time another game
advanced an alternate origin for Vampires... not that it mattered...
Vampires are still Cainites in Vrev aren't they?
Ultimately, what gets tossed back and forth on the groups doesn't matter
much, it's what individul STs decide to use (which is there own business),
and what WW publishes.
> Well as for WoD:Sorcerer.. (Which I liked) I feel that it is a realy nice
> addition and a good way to explain say...
It's perfect for Vampire, can be added to a mortal campaign easily
enough, can be made to work with W:tA/W:tO/C:tD with some difficulty
without detracting from them, and is positively detrimental to the
theme/metaphysics/mechanics of Mage.
> Voodoo, Druidism, and other
> Ritualistic belife sets that have nothing to do with the all powerfull Will
> Worker
M:tA has nothing to do with 'all-powerful Will Workers' - or if it does
it's doing a damn poor job representing them mechanically. ;) Any
magick worker with a set of beliefs can be modeled pretty well in Mage.
Heck, 'Hedge' mages as presented in WoD:S can be done almost effortlessly
using Mage's flexible, effects-based magick system.
Not that I'm down on WoD:S as a WoD supplement - I've recomended it many
times to people who want to put a wizard of some sort in thier Vampire
(or whatever) game, and don't know (or want to learn) Mage - but in any
game that includes Mages, it's worse than useless (OK, that's not true
either, you can use the backgrounds for the various types of Hedge Magi
as Crafts, for instance - the mechanics and the cosmology behind them
are worse than useless when juxtaposed with Mage).
> I hate to say it but It's called balance people.. Yes, B a l a n c e, Balance!
...
OK, you certainly have a grasp of the first three games...
> I don't mean to yell, or lecture.. just make a simple point..
> and that is that one group on the WoD is not any more 'Right' then any
<nod>
> other group... for all they know they are all wrong and the mysteries
> will never get answered..
I prefer to think of them as all being right... and the mysteries will
still never get answered.
Conrad Hubbard
The Motive wrote:
> Evenin'. Or whatever.
>
> I was flipping through my Vampire: The Masquerade "Revised Edition", and I read
> something about the Sabbat. To quote:
>
> "Mexico City, Detroit, Miami and Montreal are all under the purview of the
> Sabbat. Cities in contention include New York; Washington, DC; Buffalo, and
> Atlanta."
Note that Miami is now listed as Sabbat, as well, whereas before it noted that the
city has only just recently been freed from Sabbat control. I guess the Sabbat
took over there once more just recently (i.e. between 1992 and 1998 the dates of
the two book sources)
>
>
> Now, my question is: "When did New York become contested?" I mean, wasn't it,
> like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States? I'm just wondering if there
> are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha it
> once was.
As far as I can tell, it is essentially because of independents like the Giovanni,
and a renewed Camarilla Nosferatu power there plus some struggling Ventrue finally
making headway.
--
Conrad Hubbard
Editor of PARADIGMA (The Roleplaying Journal)
A dynamic online magazine supporting roleplaying games of grim beauty
Gaming Articles, New Reviews, Classifieds (For Sale, Wanted, Notices)
http://www.mindspring.com/~paradigma
Creator of PATHOS (A Collection of Poetry and Oddities)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/1987/
Pit Viper
>Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way -
>They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a different
>system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
>'Static' magic.
very well in certain ways by making people really think about it. It
didn't work very well and now I look like the Patron Saint of
Crossovers. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Next time I'll
try to be more direct.
-The Poisonous Pit Viper
David Johnston
> I like Hearing the Mage PoV but it is not the ONLY PoV and it is not the Right
> PoV.. none of them are..
On the contrary, all of them are. (Except for the Changeling viewpoint.
I hate the Changeling vp, and can't make any sense out of it anyway.)
I have no hesitation about applying werewolf cosmology to mages and vice versa.
It's not as if they're incompatible. Wraith and Vampire of course have no
cosmology as such.
>
> -Lichking
man...@geocities.com
lich...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <73cd9b$4d8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> blak...@technologist.com wrote:
> > > If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
> > > Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
> >
> > Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way
-
>
> um... no.. I would have to dissagree.. simply on this NG there have been a
> few threads that try to explain how vampire blood can be made with xyz
> spheres, and another that talks about turning a vampire into furnature..
> (granted i did not read that one) and I guarontee that there have been
> others that try to explain away everything from discipline useage and how why
> it does not generate paradox to the explination of why Vitae, gnosis and tass
> are all the same thing..
Well Vampire doesn't have a cosmology to discuss Mages in, apart from "Lillith
was the first Mage". Not much to say really.
Talking about vampires in Mage terms is hardly inflicting the Mage paradigm on
anything. Its discussing how Mages would view vampires. No one said they were
right.
> > They take the 'fact' that 'Vampires don't get Paradox' (duh! it's a
different
> > system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
> > 'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
> > consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
> > changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
> > WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
> > /Fortitude/...
>
> And Vampires were no longer the creation of a Curse from god.. but an avatar
> gone Wrong...? Hello pot, this is Cettle.. your BLACK..
Who said they were mutually exclusive?
<snip on balance stuff>
> and Then you have MAge.. the last of the Trinity.. (yes, Wyld, Wyrm, and Them
> the Wever. The WW Designers were not that stupid.)
Now you are inflicting Werewolf cosmology on other games. What was that about
pot and kettle? The Triat is a werewolf thing and gets "inflicted" on Mage
more than consesual reality gets "inflicted" on any other game.
> The Life of the Magi is also dificult, They know that Reality is nothing but
> a lie... only it's a personal lie.. it's not the Lie that Everything is false
> it's the Lie that everything isn't the way that YOU (yes the MAge) Think it
> should be... You can change this.. Oh yes you can... but you need to
> becarefull and go slow... otherwise you will be notice by the collective
> unconcious and punnished for your attempt to Weave your web of reality out
> side of the Norm...
>
> I don't mean to yell, or lecture.. just make a simple point.. and that is that
> one group on the WoD is not any more 'Right' then any other group... for all
> they know they are all wrong and the mysteries will never get answered..
>
> I like Hearing the Mage PoV but it is not the ONLY PoV and it is not the Right
> PoV.. none of them are..
>
> -Lichking
No one said it is. There isn't any need however to keep saying "this is from a
Mage pov" in every post however.
Mant
--
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
lich...@my-dejanews.com
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> On the contrary, all of them are. (Except for the Changeling viewpoint.
> I hate the Changeling vp, and can't make any sense out of it anyway.)
Devils advicate.. :)
Yes, All of them are Correct... From Their Point of View.. which is why there
are so many conflicts in the IC relm
>
> I have no hesitation about applying werewolf cosmology to mages and vice
versa.
> It's not as if they're incompatible. Wraith and Vampire of course have no
> cosmology as such.
In cosmology yes, W:tA and M:tA are compatable.. but the problem here in
lies.. people taking years to explain the Vampire system Using the rules of
the Mage system... and Visy-versy
-LichKing
Jason Corley
: lich...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: > I like Hearing the Mage PoV but it is not the ONLY PoV and it is not the Right
: > PoV.. none of them are..
: On the contrary, all of them are. (Except for the Changeling viewpoint.
: I hate the Changeling vp, and can't make any sense out of it anyway.)
That's why it's most likely to be right.
Franco Frare
----------
Blake 1001 wrote:
>> If you try to explain everything in Mage terms and apply that to, say,
>> Vampire, you're inflicting Mage on Vampire.
>
>Very true. Of course, that hasn't happened. It's been going the other way -
>system!) and /inflict/ that on Mage in the form of bizzare rationales about
>'Static' magic. Honestly, the Mage system and cosmology have been
>consistently trashed over the years because of the other games. Spirits got
>changed over to the Werewolf standard, V:tM style hedge magick was used for
>WoD:Sorcerer, Mages stopped soaking Agg damage because of the wording of
>/Fortitude/...
Well WW would deserve one good whipping just for every topic you mention,
especially for the latter; fortunately a clever player can take steps to
circumvent it (see my late post on Mages soaking and regenerating...)
Franco
>Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/
> |
>---|-.
> '-|---
> |
>
MagianChua
you have had for each other:
Perahaps it's time to get back to the Original intent of this Thread.. Namely
What Cities are held by the Sabbat?
David Johnston
>
> In article <365B98...@telusplanet.net>,
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> > I hate the Changeling vp, and can't make any sense out of it anyway.)
>
>
> Yes, All of them are Correct... From Their Point of View.. which is why there
> are so many conflicts in the IC relm
>
> >
> > I have no hesitation about applying werewolf cosmology to mages and vice
> versa.
> > It's not as if they're incompatible. Wraith and Vampire of course have no
> > cosmology as such.
>
> In cosmology yes, W:tA and M:tA are compatable.. but the problem here in
> lies.. people taking years to explain the Vampire system Using the rules of
> the Mage system... and Visy-versy
This is a problem, why?
Avatar9000
Mage Paradigm for other supernaturals is pretty much that their avatars have a
fixed direction depending on how they were awakaned.
Changeling paradigm is for other supernaturals simply changelings or chimera
who found a way to work with or around banality in a less harmful ( or more
harmaful ) way.
Wraiths, well, they are pretty much independent.
Vampires, they too are pretty independent.
Werewolf has pretty much applied the triat to the other supernaturals.
Kuei-Jin and the hengeyokai see them selves as pretty much the same entity but
work within the triat.
If you notice, this is just a generalization of eachs veiw of the other. Not
really an affliction just prejudices.
Working within each system even mixed there are many abilities of each to
affect other type.
i.e. mokole and corax using sun gifts to kill vampires.
i.e. vampires using certain disciplines to instantly kill mages. (Check the
thaumaturgy blood path 5 if you do not believe me)
i.e. mages bringing wraiths back to life ( look for the rote Orpheus's
blessing)
i.e. wraith obliterating the soul of a changeling ( puppetry 5) or affect the
dreaming(phantasm 2 Lucidity)
i.e. Changelings enchanting werewolves so they may be killed by the chimerical
creatures they control with the art sovereign 2 dictum and realm 5 fae.
If anyone noticed I took this full circle, Each can be inflicted on the other
so to argue that one in the WoD supercedes another is pointless.
Especially when one realizes that Gehenna, the Apocalypse, The Endless winter,
The Oblivion, and The Final Victory in the Ascension war may be the same
things.
Just my Opinion. :-)
AVATARMIKE MAGE FANATIC AND DEVILS ADVOCATE
lich...@my-dejanews.com
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> lich...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In cosmology yes, W:tA and M:tA are compatable.. but the problem here in
> > lies.. people taking years to explain the Vampire system Using the rules of
> > the Mage system... and Visy-versy
>
> This is a problem, why?
Well Personaly, I feel that These type of coversations Suck bandwith. I would
much rather see discutions about Story lines/Plots Etc..
-Lichking
nabi...@my-dejanews.com
Conrad Hubbard <para...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Now, my question is: "When did New York become contested?" I mean, wasn't
it,
> > like, the Sabbat stronghold in the United States? I'm just wondering if
there
> > are any rumours circulating about why New York City isn't the Sabbat mecha
it
> > once was.
>
> As far as I can tell, it is essentially because of independents like the
Giovanni,
> and a renewed Camarilla Nosferatu power there plus some struggling Ventrue
finally
> making headway.
>
> --
> Conrad Hubbard
I haven't read any of the sourcebooks/rulebooks/supplements, but hey, lack of
knowledge has never, ever stopped me from opening my mouth before ;)
Looking at this from a logical perspective, I would assume that New York is
just too damned big and diversified for any one group to ever completely
control. First of all, you're really dealing with the entire New York/Newark
megalopolis. There's no way to separate them. It's a huge, diverse geographic
area. Lots o' rivers, islands, etc. where it would be easy for various groups
to set up strongholds and defend them from invaders.
Second, New York can arguably be called the most important city in the world.
Finance center. Arts center. Population center. Center for education and
culture. Religous center (No? Don't think that the Archbishop of NY has some
pull in the Church? Don't think that the Jewish community doesn't effect
national and even international affairs by flexing its financial/political
muscle?) Home of the U.N. I would assume that everybody who is anybody in the
WoD wants a piece of it. Aside from the Sabbat and the Camarilla, there have
got to be anarchs continually floating in. And even that doesn't count the
garou and mages that must be running around underfoot all the time.
Finally, you've got the 'gasp' mundane human element. I'd assume some of the
most competent vampire hunters would hang out in the Big Apple. It's probably
the headquarters of the 'Van Helsing Society', or whatever. High level
politicians, mobsters, and the like would be just a little tougher and more
savvy. Nope, nobody's ever gonna control New York.
Just MHO.
--
Steve Nabinger
"You want total control, go to Syracuse!"
nabi...@gaylord.com
nabi...@my-dejanews.com
--
Steve Nabinger
"Proud Penn grad (NOT Penn State)"
Sébastien Lévesque
The Motive wrote:
> >NO! No city could be called the most important in the world. New York is
> >quite
> >important, but look at Paris, London, Beijing, Tokyo, even Bagdad... All
> >these
> >cities share influence throughout the world.
> >
> >> Finance center.
> >
> >Like Tokyo
> >
> >> Arts center.
> >
> >Like Paris, or Milan...
> >
> >> Population center.
> >
> >Beijing, Mexico City, Calcutta...
> >
> >> Center for education and
> >> culture.
> >
> >American culture is but one of many, many cultures in the world...
> >
>
> Yes, but all those things you mentioned are attributes of *one* city, while New
> York has *all* of them in one.
>
I knew I would got this answer... But Paris, for example, is all that, and, by the
way, New York is not so much an art center or a *gulp* culture center...
Sébas.
Sébastien Lévesque
nabi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
I haven't read any of the sourcebooks/rulebooks/supplements, but hey, lack of
> knowledge has never, ever stopped me from opening my mouth before ;)
>
> Looking at this from a logical perspective, I would assume that New York is
> just too damned big and diversified for any one group to ever completely
> control. First of all, you're really dealing with the entire New York/Newark
> megalopolis. There's no way to separate them. It's a huge, diverse geographic
> area. Lots o' rivers, islands, etc. where it would be easy for various groups
> to set up strongholds and defend them from invaders.
>
Up to this point, I agree with you...
> Second, New York can arguably be called the most important city in the world.
NO! No city could be called the most important in the world. New York is quite
important, but look at Paris, London, Beijing, Tokyo, even Bagdad... All these
cities share influence throughout the world.
> Finance center.
Like Tokyo
> Arts center.
Like Paris, or Milan...
> Population center.
Beijing, Mexico City, Calcutta...
> Center for education and
> culture.
American culture is but one of many, many cultures in the world...
> Religous center (No? Don't think that the Archbishop of NY has some
> pull in the Church? Don't think that the Jewish community doesn't effect
> national and even international affairs by flexing its financial/political
> muscle?)
Even if it's true, other cities have the same power, if not more...
> Home of the U.N. I would assume that everybody who is anybody in the
> WoD wants a piece of it. Aside from the Sabbat and the Camarilla, there have
> got to be anarchs continually floating in. And even that doesn't count the
> garou and mages that must be running around underfoot all the time.
Why? Too much problems... You can have some other cities in the world, with even
less problem, and influence the entire world from that standpoint. And nobody
absolutely controls a city, even less a country or the world. You can only
influence...
>
>
> Finally, you've got the 'gasp' mundane human element. I'd assume some of the
> most competent vampire hunters would hang out in the Big Apple.
Yeah, some of them... But the prey are bigger and badder in Europe, so the young
stupid vampires in New York should not be primary targets for powerful hunters...
> It's probably
> the headquarters of the 'Van Helsing Society', or whatever. High level
> politicians, mobsters, and the like would be just a little tougher and more
> savvy. Nope, nobody's ever gonna control New York.
>
This, of course, is true.
Sébas.
> Just MHO.
> --
> Steve Nabinger
> "You want total control, go to Syracuse!"
> nabi...@gaylord.com
>
The Motive
>quite
>important, but look at Paris, London, Beijing, Tokyo, even Bagdad... All
>these
>cities share influence throughout the world.
>
>> Finance center.
>
>Like Tokyo
>
>> Arts center.
>
>Like Paris, or Milan...
>
>> Population center.
>
>Beijing, Mexico City, Calcutta...
>
>> Center for education and
>> culture.
>
>American culture is but one of many, many cultures in the world...
>
Yes, but all those things you mentioned are attributes of *one* city, while New
York has *all* of them in one.
- The Motive
Richard
> nabi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Looking at this from a logical perspective, I would assume that New York is
> > just too damned big and diversified for any one group to ever completely
> > control. First of all, you're really dealing with the entire New York/Newark
> > megalopolis. There's no way to separate them. It's a huge, diverse geographic
> > area. Lots o' rivers, islands, etc. where it would be easy for various groups
> > to set up strongholds and defend them from invaders.
> >
>
> Up to this point, I agree with you...
>
> > Second, New York can arguably be called the most important city in the world.
>
> NO! No city could be called the most important in the world. New York is quite
> important, but look at Paris, London, Beijing, Tokyo, even Bagdad... All these
> cities share influence throughout the world.
Yes, but New York is the single largest city in one of the world's wealthiest and most
influential (and egotistical) nations -- and it was, for a time, almost competely
Sabbat. Thus it would have a lot more attention than some of the other major cities,
which are supernaturally more stable (London, Paris. . .). Look at some of the
supernatiral groups that have serious investments in New York:
The Glasswalkers: For City Farmers and Urban Primitives alike, Central Park Caern is
symbollically one of the most important urban caerns in the world. Along with Golden
Gate park in San Francisco, it stands for everything the Galsswalkers have been
promising the other Garou for centuries.
Fianna: Next to Boston, this is one of the highest concentrations of Fianna Irish kin
in the New World.
Camarilla: Their lack of control over this most important of American cities was a
thorn in their side for far to long. They cannot afford to lose Manhatten island. It
would cost them both the respect of European Cams and the sense of internal strength
that allows them to control rebellious neonates, not to mention simply losing ground
in their war to control American culture, business and government.
The Sabbat: Again, this group cannot and will not willingly give up their old hunting
grounds. Period, and their are too many places to hide to possibly get them to.
Pentex: Major financial center. While they probably cannot afford to serious
industrial work in New York, they cannot afford to not have some presence here.
Technocracy: Again, the Sabbat former capitol was a thorn in their vision of
Ascencion. A few years ago, the NWO took drastic steps to reduce crime and clean up
the city. This is hurting the Sabbat more than anything the Cam ever did, as their
way of life depends on hordes of humans lviing in fear, no one noticing when one
disappears. This also reduced the number of hell holes in the city and helped
sterilized several tainted nodes, thus reducing Nephandi and Infernalist presence.
Traditions: The city is just too big to control people, and one can be nose to nose
with the Techs here and never be really seen. The Cultist love it because the people
are ultimately impossible to control or do surveilance on. The Chorus knows that NY
is a serious juncture for many of the World's Religions, and many a Chorus debate is
waged by their acolytes out in the streets. It's the home of multiple large religious
seminaries and universities, the world's largest cathedral (Episcopal Cathedral of St.
John the Divine), a sizeable Eastern Orthodox population, the most well-known and
influential Roman Archbishop in the country, and a significant number of influential
religious authors and figures, not to mention one of the largest Jewish communities
outside Israel. The Hermetics aren't as influential as they'd like to be here, and
neither are several others trads, but the VA's are starting to build a really
important presence.
The Toreador: Could never afford to NOT maintain contacts here, even when it was
almost all Sabbat. As THE center for American style and high culture, it has never
been surpassed.
The Giovanni: Whatever of their various industries we might be talking about, they
would have to work it through here. And they have been here a long time. Among other
things, they thrived here by selling to a repressed and politically powerless gay
community in the 60's (when they would make deals with the cops, allowing them certain
nights when they could freely come arrest their gay bar patrons in return for looking
the other way on their other illegal industries) and the 70's (when they ran a strings
of bath houses that failed to meet fire codes, resulting in large fires where gay men
were trapped inside the burning buildings). New York was a good place to make a lot
of unscrupulous dough off unwitting customers.
Followers of Set: 'Nuff said. In the 70's, they OWNED the NYPD.
With a recent Technocrat resurgance of interest (read about NY's falling crime rate,
rise in tourism, etc.), the final blow was struck into the Sabbat's tenuous control
and an all-out war for dominance was on.
Richard
Richard
> I knew I would got this answer... But Paris, for example, is all that, and, by the
> way, New York is not so much an art center or a *gulp* culture center...
It may not be stuff those with taste like, but culture is America's biggest export.
High Fashion may come from Paris. Popular fashion starts in New York. Great
Television may come from anywhere. Popular television comes out of either New York or
LA. Of the various media and culture industries, only music recording has broken the
stranglehold of NY and LA, and even then, their exporters are largely here.
Paris and London may produce better stuff. New York stuff sells. And it sells
everywhere -- including Paris, London, Tokyo. . .
Scary but true.
Sébastien Lévesque
Richard wrote:
The way you write, it sounds better for me. The previous post seemed to look at NY as
the only important city in the world... And everybody with some common sense not it is
not true. NY is pretty important, in the real world as in the WoD, but we, North American
(I'm not from USA), seem to look as North american cities as bigger and better than
everywhere in the world. It is not true. And I hate to read post telling about how
America is so better than everywhere else...
Sébas.
Sébastien Lévesque
Richard wrote:
> Sébastien Lévesque wrote:
>
> > nabi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > > Second, New York can arguably be called the most important city in the world.
> >
> > NO! No city could be called the most important in the world. New York is quite
> > important, but look at Paris, London, Beijing, Tokyo, even Bagdad... All these
> > cities share influence throughout the world.
>
> Yes, but New York is the single largest city in one of the world's wealthiest and most
> influential (and egotistical) nations -- and it was, for a time, almost competely
> Sabbat. Thus it would have a lot more attention than some of the other major cities,
> which are supernaturally more stable (London, Paris. . .). Look at some of the
> supernatiral groups that have serious investments in New York:
>
> The Glasswalkers: For City Farmers and Urban Primitives alike, Central Park Caern is
> symbollically one of the most important urban caerns in the world. Along with Golden
> Gate park in San Francisco, it stands for everything the Galsswalkers have been
> promising the other Garou for centuries.
>
Here, I agree.
> Fianna: Next to Boston, this is one of the highest concentrations of Fianna Irish kin
> in the New World.
>
Here too.
> Camarilla: Their lack of control over this most important of American cities was a
> thorn in their side for far to long. They cannot afford to lose Manhatten island. It
> would cost them both the respect of European Cams and the sense of internal strength
> that allows them to control rebellious neonates, not to mention simply losing ground
> in their war to control American culture, business and government.
>
Intelligent elders in the Camarilla would not be so stubborn about NY. Of course, it is
an important city, but it would not be too bad a loss... European Cams can laugh, but
they are not really disturbed in their old cities... No, the loss of NY would not be so
bad, but it is the loss of the East Side (NY, Boston, Philadelphie, Miami...) that would
be bad. Why bother with one city when you can control a bigger region with a great
influence over the country together...
> The Sabbat: Again, this group cannot and will not willingly give up their old hunting
> grounds. Period, and their are too many places to hide to possibly get them to.
>
For feeding ground, it can't be lost. Politically speaking, the Sabbat are better
controlling Montréal, Toronto and Détroit. The access to the inner America is of greater
importance than one access to one port of the East Coast, imo.
> Pentex: Major financial center. While they probably cannot afford to serious
> industrial work in New York, they cannot afford to not have some presence here.
>
Yeah...
> Technocracy: Again, the Sabbat former capitol was a thorn in their vision of
> Ascencion. A few years ago, the NWO took drastic steps to reduce crime and clean up
> the city. This is hurting the Sabbat more than anything the Cam ever did, as their
> way of life depends on hordes of humans lviing in fear, no one noticing when one
> disappears. This also reduced the number of hell holes in the city and helped
> sterilized several tainted nodes, thus reducing Nephandi and Infernalist presence.
>
I think that everything the NWO does in NY is not intended toward or against the
vampires. They concentrate more on the masses. But they are there, and powerful...
> Traditions: The city is just too big to control people, and one can be nose to nose
> with the Techs here and never be really seen. The Cultist love it because the people
> are ultimately impossible to control or do surveilance on. The Chorus knows that NY
> is a serious juncture for many of the World's Religions, and many a Chorus debate is
> waged by their acolytes out in the streets. It's the home of multiple large religious
> seminaries and universities, the world's largest cathedral (Episcopal Cathedral of St.
> John the Divine), a sizeable Eastern Orthodox population, the most well-known and
> influential Roman Archbishop in the country, and a significant number of influential
> religious authors and figures, not to mention one of the largest Jewish communities
> outside Israel. The Hermetics aren't as influential as they'd like to be here, and
> neither are several others trads, but the VA's are starting to build a really
> important presence.
>
Religious metropolis are everywhere in the world. Just go a little bit north. Montréal
IS the city of 100 steeples. Lot of European cities are just as important for multiple
religions as the big apple. One nexus point is not so important if it is easier to
control (I prefer influence) other important centers in the world. NY is only ONE city.
That is the heart of my argumentation...
> The Toreador: Could never afford to NOT maintain contacts here, even when it was
> almost all Sabbat. As THE center for American style and high culture, it has never
> been surpassed.
> The Giovanni: Whatever of their various industries we might be talking about, they
> would have to work it through here. And they have been here a long time. Among other
> things, they thrived here by selling to a repressed and politically powerless gay
> community in the 60's (when they would make deals with the cops, allowing them certain
> nights when they could freely come arrest their gay bar patrons in return for looking
> the other way on their other illegal industries) and the 70's (when they ran a strings
> of bath houses that failed to meet fire codes, resulting in large fires where gay men
> were trapped inside the burning buildings). New York was a good place to make a lot
> of unscrupulous dough off unwitting customers.
>
> Followers of Set: 'Nuff said. In the 70's, they OWNED the NYPD.
Of course...
> With a recent Technocrat resurgance of interest (read about NY's falling crime rate,
> rise in tourism, etc.), the final blow was struck into the Sabbat's tenuous control
> and an all-out war for dominance was on.
>
Montréal as not a high crime rate, but the Sabbat controls it firmly. Crimes are not the
raison d'être of the Sabbat. It is only a tool, among many others...
> Richard
Sébas.
Marizhavashti Kali
>
> Richard wrote:
>
> > Followers of Set: 'Nuff said. In the 70's, they OWNED the NYPD.
>
> Of course...
In the 70s, the Setites owned the Western Hemisphere. Cocaine, Disco,
polyester...
Pelle Kofod
presuming ofcourse we deign to accept that whatever it is that americans call
culture have anything to do with what culture actually is... ;)
P
- a momentarily arrogant european... just for fun, ofcourse...
Pelle Kofod
it wasn't a movie, but a kind of "imaginary ducomentary" about the destruction
of Tokyo, in an earthquake...
I'm not saying I'm certain their calculations were correct, or that things
would indeed go this badly, but they had the world on it's knees in about a
week...
Pelle Kofod
Pelle Kofod
P
Pit Viper
>Well Personaly, I feel that These type of coversations Suck bandwith. I would
>much rather see discutions about Story lines/Plots Etc..
meaningful stuff is getting blocked out as a result.
So, then Storyline Discussions:
Some questions.
I don't own a copy of Kindred of the East, so I was rather
curious about their creation myth. Obviously being from Asia they
aren't going to hold the Old Testament story of the first murderer to
be their beginning, so what do they believe?
What kind of magic is the Curse of Malkav? Is it
Thaumaturgical like the curse that once afflicted the Assamites or is
it a power of another nature entirely possessed by one who was
well-respected for his mind even amongst Antediluvians?
Some of the maddest of Malkavians have developed powers unique
to their own diseased minds. As they tear loose from the world, they
change and grow, if they survive so long. What are the Malkavians
becoming? What's the end goal of the Father of the Mad? One has to
wonder who will be the instrument in the Breaking of the World...
Somebody mentioned Rasputin in an earlier post along with Baba
Yaga. Was exactly WHO Rasputin belongs to clarified at some point? I
was given to understand that not a few Clans laid claim to that
particular historical figure, including the Ventrue, the Malkavians
and... Damn! Somebody else. Curse my Swiss-cheese memory.
The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is. Since it isn't this
reality rewritten but an -elsewhere- started from scratch, why would
the Technocracy oppose letting all of these troublemaking reality
deviants pop off somewhere else and play their little reindeer games,
allowing them unopposed consolidation of the earth?
WoD games in general may not be written to overlap but
Changeling seems to stick its nose in every now and again regardless.
The Fair Folk have an old bond with the mad Malkavians and the Sons of
Ether traditionbook mentions somewhere around the section on Victoria
Station that the Fae are their unseen patrons. Do they have an
association with any tribe of werewolves or do they find them as
intrinsically dull as I do? ;)
-The Poisonous Pit Viper
man...@geocities.com
p1tv...@inet.att.co.kr (Pit Viper) wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:10:38 GMT, lich...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Well Personaly, I feel that These type of coversations Suck bandwith. I
would
> >much rather see discutions about Story lines/Plots Etc..
> The bandwidth is there to be used, yes/no? Ain't as if really
> meaningful stuff is getting blocked out as a result.
>
> So, then Storyline Discussions:
>
> Some questions.
>
> I don't own a copy of Kindred of the East, so I was rather
> curious about their creation myth. Obviously being from Asia they
> aren't going to hold the Old Testament story of the first murderer to
> be their beginning, so what do they believe?
They don't have a beginning in quite the same way. They aren't made by another
vampire, they die, go to hell (Yomi) then get out and reposes their old body
(usually) in a Risen-like way. So lineage is meaningless.
They do have some creation myths though, they were the servents of heaven but
screwed up.
> What kind of magic is the Curse of Malkav? Is it
> Thaumaturgical like the curse that once afflicted the Assamites or is
> it a power of another nature entirely possessed by one who was
> well-respected for his mind even amongst Antediluvians?
Well its a Caine curse, like the Nosies being ugly. Caine cursed all the antes
with something as the story goes (well not Augie and Tremere as they were not
around, Augie got cursed by Lamia though).
I think it goes beyond disciplines and thuam.
> Some of the maddest of Malkavians have developed powers unique
> to their own diseased minds. As they tear loose from the world, they
> change and grow, if they survive so long. What are the Malkavians
> becoming? What's the end goal of the Father of the Mad? One has to
> wonder who will be the instrument in the Breaking of the World...
A really big hammer.
> Somebody mentioned Rasputin in an earlier post along with Baba
> Yaga. Was exactly WHO Rasputin belongs to clarified at some point? I
> was given to understand that not a few Clans laid claim to that
> particular historical figure, including the Ventrue, the Malkavians
> and... Damn! Somebody else. Curse my Swiss-cheese memory.
A Wraith in the end, who skinrode others. Hence much confusion.
> The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
> opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is. Since it isn't this
> reality rewritten but an -elsewhere- started from scratch, why would
> the Technocracy oppose letting all of these troublemaking reality
> deviants pop off somewhere else and play their little reindeer games,
> allowing them unopposed consolidation of the earth?
Well the Technos want the Digital Web too. Besides, the others might go there
planning to strike at the Technos anyway. And the Technos really really don't
like the VAs after defecting. They want to wipe 'em all out for that, not let
them run off.
> WoD games in general may not be written to overlap but
> Changeling seems to stick its nose in every now and again regardless.
> The Fair Folk have an old bond with the mad Malkavians and the Sons of
> Ether traditionbook mentions somewhere around the section on Victoria
> Station that the Fae are their unseen patrons. Do they have an
> association with any tribe of werewolves or do they find them as
> intrinsically dull as I do? ;)
<Insert rant about you claiming werewolves are dull>
Fianna being Celtic. The Unseelis have some conections with the BSDs. The
Celican Bastet as well.
Mant
--
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
nabi...@my-dejanews.com
If you are referring to me when you say, "The previous post seemed to look at
NY as the only important city in the world," then I'm not making myself
clear. I believe I said that New York can /arguably/ be called the most
important city in the world. I used the word "arguably" because I knew that
many folks out there, among them Pelle and yourself, could make an argument
against New York as being the most important city in the world. And I
certainly never said that New York was the ONLY important city in the world.
That would be ludicrous.
"And I hate reading post telling me that America is so better than everywhere
else." Hey, at this point I just gotta ask ya' to go back and read my original
post. I NEVER SAID THAT, NOR EVEN INFERRED IT. "Better" is in the eye of the
beholder, and nobody can define it for anybody else. Hell, I have enough
trouble just defining it for myself. Ask my wife.
Steve Nabinger
"Revelling in American cultural corruption since 1963"
email nabi...@gaylord.com
Blake
>
> In article <365e3da6....@news.bora.net>,
> p1tv...@inet.att.co.kr (Pit Viper) wrote:
> > The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
> > opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is. Since it isn't this
> > reality rewritten but an -elsewhere- started from scratch, why would
> > the Technocracy oppose letting all of these troublemaking reality
> > deviants pop off somewhere else and play their little reindeer games,
> > allowing them unopposed consolidation of the earth?
>
> Well the Technos want the Digital Web too. Besides, the others might go there
> planning to strike at the Technos anyway. And the Technos really really don't
> like the VAs after defecting. They want to wipe 'em all out for that, not let
> them run off.
And, what easier way than letting them all galivant off to Reality
2.0 and pulling the plug!
Blake
> The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
> opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is.
The Virtual Adepts aren't unified in much of anything - including
that insane scheme.
> Since it isn't this
> reality rewritten but an -elsewhere- started from scratch, why would
> the Technocracy oppose letting all of these troublemaking reality
> deviants pop off somewhere else and play their little reindeer games,
> allowing them unopposed consolidation of the earth?
Because they plan to take /everyone/ with them.
Like I said, it's an insane scheme. For one thing, what if the
real world ('Gaia') really is the source of quint for the univers.
What happens when Those Beyond stop by and eat it? Reality 2.0
crashes, that's what. Morons.
--- |
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317/ '-|---
|
Sébastien Lévesque
nabi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
No, I was not referring to your post, but the one before yours. Your post sounded
better, and I'm sorry if I've been misunderstood. Maybe my english is not so good,
after all...
Sébas.
Avatar9000
>> The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
>> opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is.
>
Uh, If I am not mistaken, Virtual Adepts are no longer writing Virtual Reality
after white wednesday, EVERYONE is rewriting Virtual realities 2.0, The VAs
have lost the edge they have and they know it. At least, this is what I read
out of VR 2.0
Pit Viper
>> What kind of magic is the Curse of Malkav? Is it
>> Thaumaturgical like the curse that once afflicted the Assamites or is
>> it a power of another nature entirely possessed by one who was
>> well-respected for his mind even amongst Antediluvians?
>
>Well its a Caine curse, like the Nosies being ugly. Caine cursed all the antes
>with something as the story goes (well not Augie and Tremere as they were not
>around, Augie got cursed by Lamia though).
>I think it goes beyond disciplines and thuam.
I didn't think it WAS a curse from Caine, though. I thought that
Malkav himself enacted the curse on his children. That's what it
seemed like from their Clanbook, in any case. Is the story written
out somewhere by people who don't think that gravity is against them
personally and that tiny electric ninjas are hiding in their power
sockets? Or is this neatly hidden inside one of the BVAs?
[BVA = Big Vague Area]
><Insert rant about you claiming werewolves are dull>
Dude, I took a poll amongst my fellow gamers to vindicate my
opinion. I asked ten people which was more interesting: playing
Werewolf: The Apocalypse for four hours or giving a pint of blood and
watching reruns of the episodes of the New Hollywood Squares from when
Charo and Jim J. Bullock were regulars. Eight people picked the
Squares. :)
[Note: The above anecdote is completely fictional. Accurate, but
fictional.]
-The Poisonous Pit Viper
Blake
>
> >Pit Viper wrote:
> >> The Virtual Adepts intend to create Reality 2.0, in their
> >> opinion a vastly improved version of All That Is.
> >
>
> Uh, If I am not mistaken, Virtual Adepts are no longer writing Virtual Reality
> after white wednesday, EVERYONE is rewriting Virtual realities 2.0, The VAs
> have lost the edge they have and they know it. At least, this is what I read
> out of VR 2.0
In other words, WW is continuing thier long standing 'screw the Vdepts'
policy. I am so surprised.
man...@geocities.com
Even if we have a level playing field now, the Vdepts are soon going to be
ahead of everyone else (with the posssible exception of the Technos). Face it,
most other Trads aren't going to spend the time in the Digital Web.
Mant
--
World of Darkness Storyteller Resources
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/7960/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Pit Viper
>> In other words, WW is continuing thier long standing 'screw the Vdepts'
>> policy. I am so surprised.
>Even if we have a level playing field now, the Vdepts are soon going to be
>ahead of everyone else (with the posssible exception of the Technos). Face it,
>most other Trads aren't going to spend the time in the Digital Web.
still a pretty durn bad thing from a VA perspective. They did turn
coat on them, after all, and the Technocracy hasn't exactly displayed
a great capacity for forgiveness. Having to compete against your only
possible superiors technologically, rivals who hold no fondness for
you whatsoever and have much greater resources available than you,
sounds like, well, a screwjob, as Blake1001 so delicately put it.
-The Poisonous Pit Viper