Disciplines you never get
lon...@aol.com
There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador,
Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
Protean or Obtenebration!
Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
"junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
clans or should every discipline be open to others?
Lontro
David_Javier
In article <19970127094...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, lon...@aol.com
wrote:
I don't think you can say absolutely that certain Disciplines never get
passed around. It all has to be handled realistically, on a
Discipline-by-Discipline basis. For instance, I believe Protean, though
uncommon, should not be impossible for non-Gangrel to have. I had a
Brujah character learn Protean from a Gangrel in exchange for Celerity
training. I haven't seen anything anywhere about Gangrel having sticks up
their butts about others having Protean. Others, of course, are more
difficult. For example, Tremere would never let any others learn
Thaumaturgy, and Lasombra limit Obtenebration because it's part of their
superiority complex. Lords of the Night and all that.
And, never confuse commonality with inferiority. Presence and Dominate
are AWESOME powers.
Selah...
Dave Javier
LEONARD Daniel
On 27 Jan 1997 lon...@aol.com wrote:
> There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>=20
> Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
> different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador=
,
> Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
> Protean or Obtenebration!
>=20
> Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
> teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
> the only clan who really possess it! So it=B4s hard for a non-Gangrel
> Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
> with no problems =B4cause so many clans use them that they seem to be
> "junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for othe=
r
> clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>=20
> Lontro
>=20
>=20
>=20
The system I use is that every discipline can be learn by everyone. But it
as it costs. For specific discipline like Obtenebration, Vicissitude,
Necromancy, maybe Protean, Melpominee, Quietus (see V:tDA), Chimerstery,
Nihilistic (see DSBH), Serpentis and Obeha (and any other U see fit), you
could impose that by level five, the concerned vampire get the clan
weakness of the specific clan-discipline. So if a Tremere ever learn
Obtenebration, his reflection will start to fade until he reaches level
five. At this point, his reflection his gone. And if after he ever get
Melpominee 5, he will have a constant cute melody in his head that never
stops.
Any comments.
*******************************************************
* *
*Daniel Leonard *
* *
*=09e-mail: leo...@jsp.umontreal.ca *
*=09 *
*=09www : http://www.jsp.umontreal.ca/~leonard *
*=09 *
*******************************************************
"Total freedom means total responsability"
=09=09-Dominique, Children of the Inquisition
Daniel Haddon
lon...@aol.com wrote:
>There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
>different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador,
>Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
>Protean or Obtenebration!
>Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
>teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
>the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
>Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
>with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
>"junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
>clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>Lontro
A GM shouldn't forbid them, it's part of the game that new Disciplines
are difficult to obtain.
With the example of Protean, - many Gangrel would not have the time/
or would want to teach it to someone. However - some might, for the
right price. It might take years of tricks and manipulation to
convince / pay off / save the life of/ Dominate / Blood Bind that
Gangrel, but you can do it,
Hell, you live forever, right?
It's just a case find the right Kindred, and choosing the right plan.
Director D.Haddon
New World Order - New Zealand,
Auckland Branch.
Construct 402.
"I would like to carve the bones of my enemies into small flutes,
and give them to the local children. This is a dream of mine"
Nyarlathotep
> Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines?
Yes. A vampire can learn/develop any discipline.
> A Gangrel would never teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why?
Ah... Here is the problem. Disciplines, like Mage Spheres, (in my mind)
DO NOT REQUIRE TEACHERS! They can be developed internally without the need
of an instructor. This, in my mind, is the reason for the high experience
cost for disciplines. For example, Garou have a low experience cost for
their gifts. Why? To counter balance the Umbral Quest/Spirit Teacher
requirement . As far as Vamps are concerned, I see no need to require a
teacher to learn/develop a discipline. For those Vampires who do seek out
a teacher, use the Mage study point system to facilitate learning.
Warranted, I know what the books say. But I say throw it out the
window. How else can you explain all of the WW NPCs who are wandering
around with Protean, Thaumaturgy and God know's what else?
> Because they are the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a
> non-Gangrel Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or
> Presence with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
> "junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
> clans or should every discipline be open to others?
This has always been my problem with New Clans that have "special" or
"unique" disciplines. Why play a Ventrue who has the run-of-the-mill
disciplines of Dominate, Presence, and Fortitude, when you can play "Clan
Peste" which has the new disciplines of Bubonis and Influenzis?
My solution is to take some of the uniqueness out of these new clan
disciplines. Make all vampires capable of developing them. Only that most
have no incentive or are too stupid, lazy, lacking-in-creativity, or
paradigm-paralyzed to do it. This will allow for diversity, destroys
stereotypes, and insures the survival/retention of the "lost" disciplines
(like Mortis).
Take it or leave it folks. 'Nuff said.
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
"ZOG!!"--The Brady Bunch Tiki
"Please, Mr. Garibaldi, do not thump the Book of G'Quon. It is disrespectful." -- Citizen G'Kar
"Yes, John, of course, John, anything you say, John." -- Delenn
LEONARD Daniel
I have solve the problem of discipline the following way:
Celerity, Potence, Fortitude can be learn by everyone without mentor (they
are physical disiplines)
Presence, Obfuscate and Animalism need only a mentor for the first level,
then it is treated like C,P,F.
For Dominate, Protean and Auspex, all level must be learnt from a mentor
until you reached level 5, after that, the powers are personnalised, so it
is like C,P,F.
This way refer to the Book of Nod, in the Chronicle of Caine when he tells
the powers Lillith showed him (I hope I'm not mistaken for cat.2 & 3).
For any other, check up how the discipline or the individual path evolve
and act accordingly.
i.e.:Lure of Flamme falls in the second with Weather Control, but the path
of Blood is in the third.
Any feedback
*******************************************************
* *
*Daniel Leonard *
* *
* e-mail: leo...@jsp.umontreal.ca *
* *
* www : http://www.jsp.umontreal.ca/~leonard *
* *
*******************************************************
"Total freedom means total responsability"
-Dominique, Children of the Inquisition
Chris Steenhorst
(lon...@aol.com) writes:
> There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>
> Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
> different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador,
> Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
> Protean or Obtenebration!
Okay, I've read through most of these posts, and now I'm gonna
give you what the rulebooks say. Then I'm going to give my own opinions
on learning Disciplines.
To buy a new Discipline costs 10 X-P
To raise an in-clan Discipline costs current rating x5
To raise an out-of-clan Discpline costs current rating x7
Out-of-clans can be learned! Albiet it's a bit more difficult.
There are 13 clans. Each has three Disciplines that occur to them
naturally. This is a matter of drawing on an ancient power passed down to
your character through several generations of blood. It isn't within YOU,
it's within your blood. The blood has tendencies. A Gangrel's blood will
be predisposed to developing Animalism, Fortitude and Protean, while
Tzimisce blood will be prone to Animalism, Auspex and Vicissitude. These
disciplines are strong within the clan blood.
However, all the blood comes from one place, therefore, all the
Disciplines come from one place. And just because the blood is
predisposed to learning 3 Disciplines easily, ALL Disciplines can be
learned and raised!
In my V:TM campaign, I have a set of rules by which to learn
Disciplines. The first is habit - if the vampire uses the Discipline a
LOT, then he might be able to raise it without even thinking about it.
(One of my players has used Vicissitude 24 times...). Another way is to
see it used a lot. If you get the gist of it, you just might be able to
mimic it. The final way is through learning. If the character sits down
and STUDIES the Discipline, he will be able to attain it.
Disciplines are a vampire's gift, it's their major advantage (that
and immortality). There are NO Disciplines that cannot be learned.
Fare Thee Well
Christian
P.S. Although, as a Storyteller...you may want to restrict access to
Disciplines like...Nihilistics...Daimoinon...Visceratika...Dark
Thaumaturgy...Spiritus...Mytherceria...Temporis...all the real nasty
stuff.
--
Explain to me the scientific aspect of the `Whammy' - Scully
You can't aknowledge time, you can't even make it a Primogen
Vodka corrupts. But Absolut Vodka corrupts Absolutly
Help! I've been crucified! And I can't get down!
mar...@jyhad.seattle.net
>lon...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
>>teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
>>the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
>>Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
>>with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
>>"junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
>>clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>
>
>A GM shouldn't forbid them, it's part of the game that new Disciplines
>are difficult to obtain.
>
>With the example of Protean, - many Gangrel would not have the time/
>or would want to teach it to someone. However - some might, for the
>right price. It might take years of tricks and manipulation to
>convince / pay off / save the life of/ Dominate / Blood Bind that
>Gangrel, but you can do it,
>
>Hell, you live forever, right?
>
>It's just a case find the right Kindred, and choosing the right plan.
>
Protean exemplifies our (Gangrel) kinship with the Lupines being that we are
descended from the same mother, Ennoia. It is as sacred to the Gangrel as
Thaumaturgy to the Tremere.
Convincing a Gangrel to teach it? Unlikely. Paying off a Gangrel? Don't make
me laugh, what do you have that we want or need? Saving the life of a Gangrel?
Not impossible, but highly improbable. Most Gangrel would rather die than to
give up a life boon or their independance.
Blood bind or dominate one of us? Most of us don't involve ourselves in
kindred politics. How would you go about convincing us to something as foolish
as drinking your blood?
If you dominate one of us you have a chance, but your life expectancy may have
just shortened. Unless you condition that kindred, he's eventually going to
realize what happened and you better have the firepower to stop him. Have you
ever seen one of us frenzy?? Not only that, but if I ever found out that one
of my brothers was used in this manner, I would not stop until I saw the
dominator destroyed. Lex talionis or not, we Gangrel will fight fang and claw
for another. I know that others feel the way I do.
Is our gift precious enough to risk all that?
- Margus
(Archon, Clan Gangrel)
Dark Phoenix
lon...@aol.com wrote in article
<19970127094...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>
> Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
> different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians,
Toreador,
> Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
> Protean or Obtenebration!
>
> Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
> teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
> the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
> Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
> with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
> "junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for
other
> clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>
> Lontro
>
>
Every Kindred gets it's power from the Blood of Caine. Meaning that
Caine Basicaly has all the disciplines. Because of this, any kindred
already has the ability to learn every disciplines with the exception of
Thaumaturgy, which is considered to be a combination of Hedge Magic and
Kindred blood magic (This of course is up to the individual Game Master).
So to answer your question, as long as a kindred wants to show another
kindred how to do something with thier blood, there should be no real
problem unless the books say different. For example, A Tremere wouldn't
wander around teaching everyone thaumaturgy, nor would a Malkavian
Antitribu run around offereing dementation to everyone.
I'd basicaly say take a look at "Rules of the Night" (If you're
playing a Larp) or the Second edition Vampire book, as well as the Sabbat
Handbook and just see what restrictions White Wolf has put on the
disciplines.
Orion26
I would have to agree with my brother Gangrel on these points. There
have of course been cases where a Gangrel has taught Protean to one
outside of our clan, but the circumstances of such a happening must be
extreme.
The usual punishment for a Gangrel teaching Protean voluntarily to a
non Gangrel, and his student, unless the circumstances are deemed good
enough to justify such a breach is death by the claws and fangs of the
pack.
I have had to reming more than one member of the domain I reside in
of such when asked to teach them the discipline. I do not think outsiders
quite understand the importance of this discipline to us. It is not only
the Tremere that guard their clan specific powers.
In Service,
Dorian Thornbury
Primogen of Clan Gangrel
Domain of Northern Virginia
rar...@iconet.com.br
lon...@aol.com wrote:
>There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
>different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador,
>Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
>Protean or Obtenebration!
>Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
>teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
>the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
>Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
>with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
>"junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
>clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>Lontro
Look, as I see it, a character (for instance, your Gangrel) should
only teach others the Protean Discipline if he gets anything in
return. It would be a favor (or a payment for one done), money,
loyalty, friendship (in rare cases), etc. I think it depends on your
cronicle. I think, however, you should not allow such Disciplines
(Thaumaturgy included) to be widely know. That's the why they are
special: they are restrict.
Alexandre (from Brazil)
John Ewan
>mind) DO NOT REQUIRE TEACHERS! They can be developed internally without
>the need of an instructor.
I prefer the idea that the 'internal developement' is due to ingesting
the blood of Kindred with the desired Discipline. <g> You drink a point
of blood to get a particular discipline the Kindred knows; if you drink
three times, if you try to get all three disciplines a typical Clan
member would know from the same Kindred, you would get Blood-Bonded. It
also allows something my wife did in a Chronicle she did for us. We
were granted permission by the Prince to diablorize a vampire. He had
qualities <built-up stats, a rare Discipline> so she randomized what
benefit we gained. I ended up with a Discipline, and associated
memories, thet were most disquieting for the character and very
entertaining for me to roleplay.
> "Yes, John, of course, John, anything you say, John." -- Delenn
Since my name is John, I find this a most excellent .sig line! <g>
Ian Turner
Orion26 wrote:
> The usual punishment for a Gangrel teaching Protean voluntarily to a
> non Gangrel, and his student, unless the circumstances are deemed good
> enough to justify such a breach is death by the claws and fangs of the
> pack.
You guys are harsh! Most people just learn Protean from one of
the Caitiff Sired by your Clan or Anarch Gangrel anyway so what is the
point? It isn't hard at all, just not as easily as the physical
Disciplines (Celerity, Fortitude and Potence) which some rule can be
learned instinctively.
Yeesh!!!
Ian Turner.
Melissa Anne Cope
lon...@aol.com writes:
> There is a problem in Vampire I discussed very often with other GMs:
>
> Each clan has his own Disciplines, of course, many of them are found in
> different clans, like Dominate who is teached by the Malkavians, Toreador,
> Ventrue and others! But some disciplines are only owned by one clan,
> Protean or Obtenebration!
>
> Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never
> teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are
> the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel
> Charakter to learn Protean, but a Gangrel can learn Dominate or Presence
> with no problems 惡ause so many clans use them that they seem to be
> "junk-disciplines"! Should a GM strictly forbit some disciplines for other
> clans or should every discipline be open to others?
>
> Lontro
>
The storyteller of our game addressed this problem by requiring the
teaching party to have one level higher in the discipline being taught
than the person learning. (For example, a Gangrel would have to have
Earth Meld or higher to be able to teach a non-Gangrel Wolf Claws.)
Additionally, while in-clan disciplines cost 3/5/7 xp, out-of-clan
disciplines cost 4/6/8.
There are Gangrel in our game who try to kill any non-Gangrel with Wolf
Claws, and our Tremere killed the only member of their clan that
taught Thamaturgy to non-Tremere. (Brujah, of all people! *roll*)
While most members of clans with clan-specific disciplines are loathe
to teach them to others, some _can_ be found...
--Emma Eudocia, the Malkavian Seneschal with Wolf Claws (did you see
_Edward_Scissorhands_? MWAHAHAHA!!!
"Broo-HAH, Broo-ZHA... they're still mud on the bottom of my boot."
--
Melissa. ska Ly. Riona Seosamhin bean Morric, vka Emma Eudocia,
gka Em. cop...@freenet.tlh.fl.us --- GOGD5$ZZ2$ TAnFeYyu PPe!
B/23Bk"2 cNRs8 V3s M4p1 Z** C6 a23+ n7 b54 H173 g5T??8?A mEa4@Z6 w5
v3R r6?E p32745Zz D56/7~!* h5 sF9)6(SrNn k7BMsW N??95CN)H( HzSp5 LusFL4
lon...@aol.com
Many argument that vampire don´t need any teachers! Why not? Especially
the Gangrel have the deep understanding of shapeshifting! Vampres have the
power to develop every discipline but not the understanding. How could a
young Brujah who never saw Protean in action or even heared about it
develop this disciplne in the same way a Gangrel would? I think also that
"trading" of disciplines is a typical way for players to get new
disciplines ("Hey, you give me Protean and I give you Obfuscate"). A
Vampire who wouldn´t do it because he has noone he really could trust, yep
vampires are REALLY alone! I think the best way to get a discipline which
is owned by only one clan is a boon! This is the only reason for a
Lasombra to teach Obtenebration to an outsider! Friendship isn´t enough
´cause it could end in 500 years and than he will have an enemy who became
better by his own fault. But with a boon he has to! Vampires never forget!
I also greed Dorian and Margos which are of my Clan I once left
Lontro
Old Grand Undying King of the Children of Osiris
Real Child of Ennoia/Lost Gangrel
Atalanta
John Ewan wrote:
>
> I prefer the idea that the 'internal developement' is due to ingesting
> the blood of Kindred with the desired Discipline. <g> You drink a point
> of blood to get a particular discipline the Kindred knows; if you drink
> three times, if you try to get all three disciplines a typical Clan
> member would know from the same Kindred, you would get Blood-Bonded.
I did something like this in my chronicle, I let a PC learn Melpominee
from a "Daughter" of Cacophany (actually a male).
But he needed to drink from him again every time he wanted to go up a
level in it.
Atalanta Pendragonne
atal...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2273/
sv...@ll.mit.edu
Atalanta wrote:
> I did something like this in my chronicle, I let a PC learn Melpominee
> from a "Daughter" of Cacophany (actually a male).
>
> But he needed to drink from him again every time he wanted to go up a
> level in it.
Now _that_ sounds like a good idea.
Of course, it sort of furthers my 'Disciplines are in the blood, not
the mind' point of view, so I guess I'd say it was a good idea no matter
what. ;)
-- S. Skoog
ESWE...@maine.maine.edu
Actually, with my current character in a Sabbat Chronicle we're running
the pack she's working for as a Ghoul (more or less unwittingly) is
preparing to turn her into a Pander. How, you might ask, are they
planning to do this? Pretty simple, actually. We all had a little
round-table discussion and figured out a pretty surefire way to
make a Pander/Caitiff.
Sabbat Vampire are infamous for the Vaulderie, that little ritual that
bonds them to each other and breaks the Blood Bond of other Vampires
(if done correctly). To do this, they take a chalice, mix up their
blood in it (yes, all of them, including the Malks) and then they all
sip at it. When they do a creation rite, they hold a Vaul immediately
after, and everyone but the new guy offers a portion, the greatest
portion of the blood going to the new guy. (If that was confusing, and
I think it was, here's the simpler version: The childe doesn't
contribute, but he still drinks so no has a Vinculum to him, but he
has one to all of them.)
But what if you do one before, and the childe is lingering in that
bloodless state? Normally, when Embraced, the childe gets the blood
of their sire and only their sire. However... A mingled source of
vitae -might- produce a Pander/Caitiff, a vampire without a clan.
Their generation would probably be pretty high, 12th or 13th, at
least one higher than whoever was highest among the contributors,
and they come out of the ground with an instant Vinculum to
everyone there (which can be bad, very very bad.) They get to
choose from the Disciplines of all those present...
Which leads me to my point in this: If a City Gangrel and a Tremere-
antitribu and a Lasombra and Toreador happened to be the members of
the pack creating this particular Pander, this kid would come out
of the ground with... Anything. Dominate, Obtenebration, Potence,
Celerity, Auspex, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy...
Of course, those that match up would probably be the ones that
manifested first. For example: Tremere and Lasombra both have
Dominate. Tremere and Toreador both have Auspex. I think City
Gangrel have Celerity, as do the Toreador: Poof. Dominate,
Celerity, Auspex. Or if it was (shudder) a Malk-anti, a Tremere-
anti and a Daughter of Cacophony it might end up as Auspex,
Melpominee and Thaumaturgy, a deadly combination no matter which
way you cut it. (My favorite Pander combination, for those who
don't know me, is of course Animalism, Presence and Dominate,
which, if you'll excuse my potty mouth fucks everyone over in a
very nasty way in a very short amount of time.)
This is one way Disciplines like Protean and Thaumaturgy and
Dementation and Vicissitude and whatever that weird ting the Kiasyd
have is called get propagated: Through the Clanless, who can and
do have any combination of Disciplines they damned well please.
Sorry for taking so long to make a point, but it was required.
-Ted
Ian Turner
Atalanta wrote:
> I did something like this in my chronicle, I let a PC learn Melpominee
> from a "Daughter" of Cacophany (actually a male).
'PC' Kindred call them 'Childer of Cacaphony.' But then most
Kindred are far too old to subscribe to this PC concept...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> Of course, it sort of furthers my 'Disciplines are in the blood, not
> the mind' point of view, so I guess I'd say it was a good idea no
> matter what. ;)
I am not sure if I agree with it, but several ST's in Haverhill
seem to espouse this as well. As a result my Nosferatu has banked away
4 Blood from each of 6 Anarch Kindred we have captured... (I know that
Celerity, Presence, Dominate and Fortitude at least are present in my
'springer sample kit,' as I saw these used while spying on or fighting
these Anarchs. Some remain in an interrogatable condition, I need to
find out what else is available. One is rumored to be a Gangrel but
we shut him down before he got an action, I assume that some of the
Anarchs have or had Potence as well...)
I DO agree that someone should be able to learn their Clan
Disciplines with minimal or NO training (except perhaps for Thaumaturgy)
and feel that Potence, Fortitude and Celerity are the most likely to be
picked up sans teacher.
The Gangrel Clanbook makes it clear that Gangrel abandon their
Childer all the time and yet they seem to pick up Animalism, Fortitude
and Protean with no real problem and I know of very few Malkavians who
have actually been TAUGHT anything meaningful by their Sires and yet
Asupex, Dominate and Obfuscate come naturally to them (from the Madness
Network? I think not!).
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote:
> Of course, it sort of furthers my 'Disciplines are in the blood, not
> the mind' point of view, so I guess I'd say it was a good idea no
> matter what. ;)
Dark Ages p 146 states that a Ravnos must hunt down a Fae and
drink of its blood each time he wished to advance in Chimerstry...
Ian Turner.
Ian Turner
Ian Turner
Ian Turner
ESWE...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU wrote:
> But what if you do one before, and the childe is lingering in that
> bloodless state? Normally, when Embraced, the childe gets the blood
> of their sire and only their sire. However... A mingled source of
> vitae -might- produce a Pander/Caitiff, a vampire without a clan.
> Their generation would probably be pretty high, 12th or 13th, at
> least one higher than whoever was highest among the contributors,
> and they come out of the ground with an instant Vinculum to
> everyone there (which can be bad, very very bad.) They get to
> choose from the Disciplines of all those present...
> Which leads me to my point in this: If a City Gangrel and a Tremere-
> antitribu and a Lasombra and Toreador happened to be the members of
> the pack creating this particular Pander, this kid would come out
> of the ground with... Anything. Dominate, Obtenebration, Potence,
> Celerity, Auspex, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy...
> Of course, those that match up would probably be the ones that
> manifested first. For example: Tremere and Lasombra both have
> Dominate. Tremere and Toreador both have Auspex. I think City
> Gangrel have Celerity, as do the Toreador: Poof. Dominate,
> Celerity, Auspex.
This is the basic assumption, although a Pander can also make
another. Pander seem to learn Potence Celerity and Fortitude easiest
without teachers, but he could learn ANYTHING taught, especially Clan
Disciplines from one of his 'Sires', pretty easily. He would I agree be
more likely to pick up Disciplines MOST common (A Toreador and Brujah
and Nosferatu Childe would most likely have Celerity, Potence and
Prescence as those Disciplines are found TWICE each amongst his Sires)
I would check the Generations of his Sires and roll randomly
(weighting if one added more or less blood than the others) to find the
Generation of the Childe. The weakest blood in the dish isn't
necessarily going to overpower the stronger blood IMO.
In the case of Thaumaturgy or some of the more esoteric
Disciplines (like Quietus or Chimerstry) I would require a teacher,
although rare exceptions do occur (a telekinetic Embraced MAY start with
the Thaumaturgical Path of Movement of the Mind (but not Path of Blood!)
regardless of who Embraces him)!
My 2 cents worth,
Ian Turner.
Ok HC
begin quote... Are other Vampires able to learn these disciplines? A Gangrel would never teach Protean to a non-clanmember. The Question is why? Because they are the only clan who really possess it! So it愀 hard for a non-Gangrel Charakter to learn Protean,... ...end quote You forget little things like friendships or owed boons and that the Gangrel aren't about to go and tell other members of it's clan what they can or can't do with the disiplines they have. --17---
Ian Turner
John Sweeney wrote:
> This type of thing really has to be judged on a case by case basis. I
> don't know anyone who thinks the physical disciplines (celerity,
> fortitude, potence, or protean) should be limited (and I rarely even
> require a teacher for them). Several levels of Auspex seem
> intrinsically intuitive, or only requiring of minor teaching, likewise
> with Obfuscate, Presence, Dominate, and Animalism. Thaumaturgy is a
> difficult one, and the only one I never discard the clan/non-clan
> distinction for (I've decided that the Tremere have a superior
> methodology for teaching Thuam which makes it fundamentally easier for
> them to learn, where as without this method, it is much more
> difficult). Most of the other clan-specific disciplines need a
> teacher, as they aren't as obvious as uses of the Blood.
A couple of local ST's like the idea of the Disciplines being
'in the blood' and to learn Protean you need to taste the blood of a
Gangrel (which is funny, since one of the ST's who DOESN'T use this
system required this as the price for learning Protean in one case).
I am not a big fan of this idea, but I DO agree with the notion
that Potence, Celerity and Fortitude should be all-but innate and that
they can be fairly easily developed without a teacher. Thaumaturgy, we
agree is the only one that can NEVER be developed without a teacher
UNLESS one Embraces a Hedge Wizard or something. Almost all of the
other common Disciplines (Animalism, Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate,
Presence and Protean) can rarely be picked up naturally and specific
cases must exist (it is your Clan Discipline or you were Kin-folk in the
case of Protean for example) or can be taught to you by anyone who has
it. It is possible that the only reason that the XP costs are
different for in-Clan Disciplines are because of innate affinities in
the Blood and not necessarily anything to do with training.
Every Gangrel, Brujah or Malkavian who actually was trained by
their Sire raise your hands. Most Gangrel are abandoned for a while and
yet learn to use their powers with NO training, a decent amount of
Malkavians couldn't have received training from their Sires because
their Sires simply weren't up to it and quite a few Brujah expect their
Childer to carry their own weight coming out of the gate (or even
abandon them!). Nowhere in the rules does it limit a character to the
Discipline mix his Sire had available to teach (Many Nosferatu don't
bother with Potence, some Gangrel skimp on Animalism, younger Brujah
often shun Presence for centuries, etc).
Ian Turner.
WLKWDEATH
In our group Clan disciplines can be learned instinctively. Non clan
disciplines must be taught. Also, increasing the non clan disciplines
takes
longer that clan disciplines, reflected in how much a character uses them.
I think its 30 times with three or more successes for clan disciplines,
and
50 times with three or more successes for non clan disciplines. These
figures
are on a per level basis. Yeah it takes a long time to increase
disciplines, but
we usually run 2 to 3 year chronicles.
mar...@seattle.net
The only Caitiff are those to which the Sire has not "appeared" or those whose
Sires have died. How many anarch Gangrel have you seen? Hmm... Maybe I should
rephrase that. How many non-anarch Gangrel have you seen? We are (most all)
loners and wanderers by nature. Very few of us care for politics and kindred
affairs. Many mistake this as anarchy, but I believe that it would be best
defined as apathy.
If I ever saw you use Protean, and you weren't a Gangrel or an elder, I would
be most interested in how you came about it. We punish the so-called "anarchs"
as well.
Yours in blood-
Margus
mar...@seattle.net
> <SNIP>
>Which leads me to my point in this: If a City Gangrel and a Tremere-
>antitribu and a Lasombra and Toreador happened to be the members of
>the pack creating this particular Pander, this kid would come out
>of the ground with... Anything. Dominate, Obtenebration, Potence,
>Celerity, Auspex, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy...
>
> <SNIP>
>
>This is one way Disciplines like Protean and Thaumaturgy and
>Dementation and Vicissitude and whatever that weird ting the Kiasyd
>have is called get propagated: Through the Clanless, who can and
>do have any combination of Disciplines they damned well please.
>Sorry for taking so long to make a point, but it was required.
>
> -Ted
Speaking as a City Gangrel, myself, I still feel it is necessary for the
PARTICIPATION of the Gangrel in order to create this Pander... In other words,
it would mean the same to the Gangrel as if he *taught* the Protean discipline.
Also, the clanless represent a threat in the prophesy of the Book of Nod.
Being that the Sabbat are definately AGAINST the antediluvians, I doubt highly
that they would create a powerful group of the clanless.
If the Four Horsemen signify the beginning of the end of the world, would you
go out and look for the Horsemen. And if you didn't find them, would you then
try to create them?
I don't believe that the TRUE Black Hand would want this to happen.
Yours in blood-
Margus
mar...@seattle.net
As PC as the lex talionis.
Margus
mar...@seattle.net
> The Gangrel Clanbook makes it clear that Gangrel abandon their
>Childer all the time and yet they seem to pick up Animalism, Fortitude
>and Protean with no real problem and I know of very few Malkavians who
>have actually been TAUGHT anything meaningful by their Sires and yet
>Asupex, Dominate and Obfuscate come naturally to them (from the Madness
>Network? I think not!).
>
We only abandon them temporarily. During this time they seem to develop
animalism and fortitude. We DO RETURN later if the neonate proves that he is
worthy of the unlife. Consider it the probationary time. If the Sire dies,
however, the result may be Caitiff, but I have rarely seen them display
Protean.
It took me forever to learn the wolf form... and I have been taught Protean.
What makes you think that our gift comes so easily.
Yours in blood-
Margus
Ian Turner
I think that every Clans Disciplines CAN come instinctively to a
lost cub of that Clan, as I said, many Malkavians seem to receive no
training from their Sires. I met one who picked up H. Senses moments
after the Embrace and Obfuscated less than a half-hour later without any
contact with his Sire. Then again, his Sire could have used Doninate to
train him before abandoning him, but I have also heard tales from Brujah
who picked up Celerity and Potence without training and a Toreador whose
senses also heightened as she awoke from the Embrace.
I certainly did not plan on singling out the Gangrel and assume
that not every lost Gangrel Childer immediately can transform into a
wolf or bat...
Dr Pemberton.
mar...@seattle.net
>> Protean exemplifies our (Gangrel) kinship with the Lupines being that we are
>> descended from the same mother, Ennoia. It is as sacred to the Gangrel as
>> Thaumaturgy to the Tremere.
>
>
>Please.
>
>Why don't you both try again. Protean is one of the most widespread
>Disciplines there is.
In your world, maybe, but not in mine. I don't know any non-Gangrel kindred
that have the Shadow of the Beast discipline. Not that they can't exist, but
they shouldn't be common.
>Most Elders who lived in a day where the safest
>haven to sleep in was the bosom of the Earth possess this Discipline at
>decent levels.
I believe that the key here is *ELDERS*. You're already making the distinction
that the oldest have it. I never said (even on my so-called high horse) that
Protean couldn't be learned. What I said was that it would be difficult to
find someone to teach it to you. For an elder, however, that shouldn't be the
problem.
>Most Vampires who like to see at night, or want to really
>slice it up in a fight learn at least the first level or two.
Again, you state *learn*... Do you mean that this is self-taught? OR that
there
is someone to teach it?
>As precious to the Gangrel as Thaumaturgy is to the Tremere? What a
>laugh.
How much do you really know about the Gangrel? Note that I am not laughing at
you... Or ever did... Who's on a high horse now? Both Gangrel and antitribu
(City and Country) have the Protean discipline. ALL Gangrel have the Protean
discipline in common. No other clan or bloodline has Protean as a clan
discipline. We are descended from the mother of the lycanthropes, this is what
causes us to learn Protean more easily.
A Mage requires a 4 in Life to do what is comparable to the level 4 Protean. A
4 in a SPHERE! And yet, you seem to treat this as if it is inherent in all
kindred if they simply try to do it? The ability to COMPLETELY change your
body is nothing more than any other physical discipline like Potence,
Fortitude, or Celerity? I REALLY don't see how you can compare Protean to the
other three no matter which way you look at it.
>And keep in mind...A lot more Kindred know Thaumaturgy in one form
>or another than the Tremere are comfortable with. But as to preciousness,
>It's just another tool to survival. One of the many advantages Kindred
>have over Kine in the Natural Selection game, and not the most important
>one at that.
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. It's not mine, and that
doesn't
make it wrong because it differs from yours. "...and not the most important
one
at that" : do you have a rating system?
>Get off your high horse (or your character's high horse),
>and realize that the only difference between a clan discipline and a
>non-clan discipline is an XP or two (and under some STs, myself included,
>rarely even that much).
The only difference between a tradition's sphere and the others is a XP or two.
Granted, it is a drastic difference, but not the exact XP rule follower as you
are stating you are.
>Any Vampire can learn _ANY_ discipline, in some
>cases it is really easy (like Potence or Fortitude can just grow on you
>with a little exertion of will, and expenditure of XP), while others are
>quite difficult (attuning your Blood to the mystic forces of the
>Universe, or convincing a Kindred who already has to show you the secret,
>thus gaining Thaumaturgy, or studying the dark and hideous rituals of
>Serpentis...)
>
Wait a second, I thought that the point I was making in past posting was
exactly
this. You have now stated that Thaumaturgy and Serpentis (two disciplines that
are not found in any other clan) should be taught. Who else has Protean? Yet
you believe that a kindred who "attunes his blood to the mystic forces of the
universe" will suddenly understand shapeshifting.
Forget interacting with everyone else, I should just find a secluded mountain
top
and start *attuning*. Everything is within my blood already, why bother
playing
a role in the unlife?
>This type of thing really has to be judged on a case by case basis.
Hmmm... By the word "judge" you are stating that this is YOUR interpretation
of
the rules. While I have no problem with this, your campaign is your campaign,
I
wonder now if you realize that you had to *judge* the rules. All of what you
have said has come from your own interpretation and not from any stated rule.
> I don't know anyone who thinks the physical disciplines (celerity,
>fortitude, potence, or protean) should be limited (and I rarely even
>require a teacher for them).
Well, if you don't know anyone, then that person must not exist. So if
everyone
you know agrees with you, it must be true. It's not difficult to see how real
jyhads and wars start.
>Several levels of Auspex seem intrinsically
>intuitive, or only requiring of minor teaching,
It seems so, huh? Again: personal interpretation. Not everything is as it
seems.
>likewise with
>Obfuscate, Presence, Dominate, and Animalism. Thaumaturgy is a difficult
>one, and the only one I never discard the clan/non-clan distinction for
>(I've decided that the Tremere have a superior methodology for teaching
>Thuam which makes it fundamentally easier for them to learn, where as
>without this method, it is much more difficult). Most of the other
>clan-specific disciplines need a teacher,
What makes Thaumaturgy so different in your mind? This isn't a challange, just
a curious question. What makes Thaumaturgy so different than all the others?
I
have my own reasoning, but I'd like to know yours.
>as they aren't as obvious as uses of the Blood.
??? Had you up to there. Blood is what we are all about, I believe I know
what
you are saying, but I believe that what you wrote is not what you meant.
You have a opinion, one just as valid as my own. Why must you attack mine to
supplant your own, though? If everyone could learn every discipline with the
only difference being the XP expenditure, the WoD would be a very bland place.
To me, (my opinion) one of the beauties of the WoD and kindred is the
distinctions
between them. If everyone has Protean, what would set the Gangrel apart? It
is
who we are fundamentally.
I love opinions, and would have loved to read yours if it didn't seem like such
an attack. Why didn't you just post your opinion and leave it at that? I
don't
value my opinion over yours (I think my horse just died) so must you assert
yours
over mine?
>--
>Everybody's Friend,
I hope that will be more true in the future.
>
>The Sween DOG
- Margus
Ian Turner
mar...@seattle.net wrote:
> What makes Thaumaturgy so different in your mind? This isn't a
> challange, just a curious question. What makes Thaumaturgy so
> different than all the others? I have my own reasoning, but I'd like
> to know yours.
Despite WoD supplements which anyone over a certain age pick up
Thaumaturgy somehow, I tend to think that it is different from most of
the other Disciplines what with the Paths and Rituals and stuff. Not
necessarily better, just different. I have written Tremere Dominate
specialists and a Tremere that the the Chantry has orders not to teach
Thaum to yet because his loyalties are not 100%... (He refuses to
betray the group he was Embraced from and is unwillingly turning into
Captain Auspex!)
On a Protean note, I am curious as to the sinister connection
between the Protean Discipline and that of Serpentis.
Level 1 grants supernatural powers attributed to animals through
alteration of the eyes.
Level 2 allows an attack that does Aggravated Wounds though
alteration of a body part to an animal facsimile.
Level 3 protects the Kindred when he sleeps, through theuse of
physical alteration.
Level 4 allows complete shapeshifting into an animal form.
Level 5 (is a huge stretch) allows a physical alteration that
protects the Kindred from certain types of harm.
Interesting, no? I would allow a Gangrel player to choose to
have and Egyptian Gangrel shapeshift into Vultures and Jackals (or
Crocodiles!), African ones into Leopards and either Vultures or Bats,
Aquatic ones into Gulls or Sharks, South American ones into Jaguars and
Vampire Bats and some British ones into Hounds and Owls. I also could
see various other subtle changes as well, British, Orientals and
aquatics would have Green Eyes and the South American and African Amber
ones since that fits with myth and lore.
I feel that Protean should be the most adaptable of Disciplines
with the most variants based on the individual and not necessarily the
Sire and / or teacher! With the Blood of of the mother of all Bete said
to be flowing through every Gangrels veins I have no problems with
features from any Bete cropping up on a Gangrel with the proper
background. I also would allow a Protean user to purchase the Gift of
Proteua after character creation (up to his Protean level, so that he
would have to reach Shadow of the Beast to gain the full 4 pt Merit).
But then these are just my views.
Ian Turner.
mar...@seattle.net
No problem... When they're born within the Clan (lost cub) I would say that
there was an inherent talent. This, in fact, was what I've been trying to
convey... (of course, you do it IC and it's considered ranting I guess).
What I don't understand is when some ST allow the Protean discipline to be
inherent in ALL kindred. Sure it's a physical discipline, but I wouldn't
necessarily group it with Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude.
I love being a Gangrel, and that's perhaps why I fight the "everyone has
Protean" theory. We're not as flashy as the Tremere, as corruptive as the
Setites, or as dark as the Lasombra. We are, however, distinctive none the
less, but yet some would take our main distinction away.
What would be the point of being a Shapeshifter?
- Margus
Ian Turner
mar...@seattle.net wrote:
> I love being a Gangrel, and that's perhaps why I fight the "everyone
> has Protean" theory.
The idea of a Kindred sitting up on a mountain and contemplating
his navel until he knows Protean and Obtenebration and Necromancy and
Thaumaturgy cheapens the whole game. Either a character must 1) be of a
Clan that has that power as a Clan Discipline, 2) receive training in
said Discipline from someone who knows it, 3) Diablerize someone who
knows it and have XP lying around to pick stuff up from his soul, 4) use
the dubious I'm-a-Caitiff-so-I-can-poop-any-Discipline-out-of-my-rearend
ruling to 'create' Protean as if it were a new Discipline (in which case
he may as well make a few changes whilst doing so) or 5) use the I'm a
Caitiff and my lost Sire was Gangrel (or I'm a Pander and either a City
Gangrel, Country Gangrel or Ahrimanes contributed blood for my creation
and or taught me Protean).
About the only exception I would consider was a Childe of Osirus
who used to be a Gangrel, an Ahrimanes or MAYBE a Gargoyle (who were
made from Gangrel and Nosferatu and Tzimisce bits).
Remember though that after spending your three Dots in Clan
Disciplines you can use Freebies and Flaws to get up to THREE more dots
in any other Discipline if you have sufficient rationale to persuade
your ST. I have a Toreador who started with Chimerstry 1 and a
Prestation Debt to a Ravnos and a Ventrue who has Thaumaturgy that he
learned from a Haitain Samedi voodoo-priest (he started with Spirit
Thaum as Primary and new nothing of the Path of Blood). Anything is
potentially possible, it is the ST's judgement. There are plenty of
good excuses for Protean sneaking onto a character sheet (I am an
Embraced Kinfolk, I was a Gypsy of the Lupine Clan, I tricked / rescued
/ befriended / Blood Bound / Dominated / Prestated a Gangrel once, I
had a Gangrel lover for 20 years and a Ventrue killed her and I know
have a Driving Goal to kill him, unfortunately he is now Prince of our
city!), just as Thaumaturgy is available to those with the Freebies and
the appropriate concept (especially Assamites, Setites and Tzimisce).
Starting with Temporis, Mytherceria and Sanguinas as your three
Freebies would stretch ANY ST's credulity to the breaking point and such
a person should be laughed at. Only a Black Hand member could get the
first (and damn few of them, the TruBru are picky), a DAMN good story is
required for the second and the third is just laughable since you would
have to be one of the Tremere or Tzimisce who worked on their creation!
Ian Turner.
ESWE...@maine.maine.edu
(Replying to A City Gangrel implying stuff about the TRUE Black Hand.)
Well, speaking from the standpoint of someone who has never really got
why the Sabbat actually take the Book of Nod as canon when the thing is
really nothing more than Camarilla spawned trash (though still a
decent read, believe it or not) thinly disguised as something of
archaelogical value, I don't see why there are all of these warnings
from Caine, the original vampire who has no clan, about the clanless.
-Unless- he's simply worried about all of these vampires who he really
can't control through his antediluvian/3rd Generation puppets. I
think the stuff about the Clanless really applies more to the Cammie
Princes than the Sabbat. After all: Who makes up the bulk of the
Anarchs if you take awy the Gangrel and the Brujah? It sure as hell
isn't the Tremere. Must be the caitiff. The clanless.
As for the TRUE Black Hand, I know I'm not the first to say this, I'm
hoping I won't be zapped out of existence by some angry killfile before
someone says it again: I didn't like DSotBH. I don't use any of it as
canon in my Chronicles. I could care less what the TRUE Black Hand
thinks of a Brujah, Serpent of Light, two Malks, a City Gangrel, the
ever-present Tremere and possibly the Tzimisce (if she ever finds her
arm) getting together to make my little technician into a pander. From
the viewpoint of the Sabbat Player's Guide, what they're doing is a
Good Thing (tm). Access to a wider range of Disciplines (even if she
does end up with Dementation, Vicissitude and Animalism) leads to a
better chance of survival. A better chance of survival means that
she might survive her first conflict and end up as a True Sabbat. If
she ends up as a True Sabbat, that means that she's probably not going
to be turned into hamburger by the first Cammie Gangrel with a thing
about non-clan member having Protean she runs into.
I know what you're going to say, but my point boils down to this: Caine
was Caitiff. That means, in a very roundabout kind of way, that the
Caitiff and the Pander are his chosen. Even if the Book of Nod -is- his
words and he -did- stick that part in there about the Clanless, it
still makes sense. God, in the Bible, tested the chosen many times. By
setting all of the vampires against the Clanless, would this not be a
test as well of Caine's chosen? Wouldn't it weed out the week and those
not fit to be gifted with unlife among both the Clanless and those of
the Clans? Maybe this is what the Jyhad is all about: Population control,
pure and simple.
Before posting, I actually talked to the player of the City Gangrel and
got her views on this whole 'Protean for Gangrels only' thing, and she
laughed. Her initial comment was something along the lines of 'what a
load of bull', followed immediately by: 'Protean is a gift, a very special
gift. Gifts are meant to be shared by all, just like tales. Keeping the
gift of Protean to ourselves is stilling the tale that is our clan. We
don't lose our distinctiveness if they have access to our gift for we
understand it better than they ever will. Let them play at being beasts.
We know what they really are.'
I think she said it better than I could.
-Ted