Kindred as Wraiths
Jesse Miksic
Can Kindred become Wraiths after final deaths? What has White Wolf said
about this?
Jenni
Jesse Miksic wrote:
>
> Can Kindred become Wraiths after final deaths? What has White Wolf said
> about this?
It's rare, but it's rare for most humans to become wraith's as well. The
vampire has to have a reason to come back, and in general, my
storyteller has made a ruling that no character with under 7 wp can come
back as a wraith if they die, they simply aren't strong willed enough to
stay in the skinlands if they are quite up there. When my gangrel died,
she had more than enough reason to stay (she was killed while trying to
save her friend from a torturer, to make a very long and involved story
very short but still boring) so she did. We did come up with an
interesting new shadow for her, The Beast. Neat power too, it had Usury
as a shadow arcanos (what better arcanos for a vampire than usury, after
all? You get to suck power from other people!). There's lots of things
you can do to keep the vampiric spirit to it too, like...make the
gauntlet thicker for them during the day, stuff like that.
Jenni G.
Mark Reck
Actually, WW says that Kindred dying and becoming Wraiths is very rare.
But in the case that it happens, they do not have any Disciplines.
However, the Giovanni have this nifty power under Necromancy that allows
them to become Wraiths if they die (I think it is a level six or seven
power -- it is in the Giovanni clanbook).
with metta,
mark
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
"Before enlightenment,
Carrying water and chopping wood;
After enlightenment,
Carrying water and chopping wood."
-- Anonymous Zen Proverb
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
milton chorney
By the way, that is a level nine Necromancy power (forgot the name,
don't have book in front of me.) According to the Mediums book for
Wraith, many Giovonni become Wraiths but usually make better servants of
Oblivion (HeHe!)
Nyarlathotep
> Jesse Miksic wrote:
> > Can Kindred become Wraiths after final deaths? What has White Wolf
> > said about this?
>
> They can, but they retain no Disciplines according to WW. Personally I
> could see knowledge of Thaum remaining (with no blood to fuel it unless
> the Wraith Inhabits a Kindred and uses his).
As certian Disciplines have close Arcanoi equivalents, I could see them
being translated to the nearest effect equivalent. Dominate/Presence =>
Fascinate, Vicisstude => Moliate, Melpominee => Keening, etc... I would at
least allow the Kindred a lower "buy back" experience cost if an close
Arcanoi-equivalent discipline where possessed in unlife due to
famaliarity.
And if the Kindred's Retainers recovered his deceased body/remains
before sunrise and kept it safe, I would allow said Kindred to return as a
Risen, if he met all the requirements, with ALL of his former disciplines.
Rod K.
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
"This life is slow suicide, unless you read."
--Lt. Tom Keefer, The Caine Mutiny.
Jon Solo
Jesse Miksic wrote:
> Can Kindred become Wraiths after final deaths? What has White Wolf
> said
> about this?
Well, one good answer simply lies in the Advertisements in the back of
some Dark Ages books. They essentially suggest that a chronicle that
meets final death can continue on in Wraith. They give a similar
suggestion for Werewolves, by the way.
--
Jon Solo
Feyd-Rautha
In article <346411...@ix.netcom.com>, Jenni <nab...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Jesse Miksic wrote:
>>
>> Can Kindred become Wraiths after final deaths? What has White Wolf said
>> about this?
>
In what I've heard as being an "official" answer to that question
as it was emailed to white-wolf, a Kindred *can* become a wraith.
HOWEVER, if it had more than 4 beast/path traits when alive,
the soul goes immediately to Oblivion, while if the same character
had achieved Golconda, the soul transcends instead. In either of
those cases, no matter what, no wraith can form from the soul.
For live-action use, I'd suggest making the player throw two simple
tests if they don't fit into either category, they want to bring in
thier newly-dead character as a wraith, and the storyteller is
*willing* to run wraiths in the game at all. The player would have to
win both simple tests to keep the character from going to Oblivion
(first test) or Transcending (second test). This is above and beyond
the beast trait/path trait and Golconda restrictions.
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com
On 9 Nov 1997 21:11:53 GMT, Nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu
(Nyarlathotep) wrote:
> As certian Disciplines have close Arcanoi equivalents, I could see them
>being translated to the nearest effect equivalent. Dominate/Presence =>
>Fascinate,
Fascinate is Risen only if I remember correctly.
>Vicisstude => Moliate, Melpominee => Keening, etc... I would at
>least allow the Kindred a lower "buy back" experience cost if an close
>Arcanoi-equivalent discipline where possessed in unlife due to
>famaliarity.
Very generous of you.
> And if the Kindred's Retainers recovered his deceased body/remains
>before sunrise and kept it safe, I would allow said Kindred to return as a
>Risen, if he met all the requirements, with ALL of his former disciplines.
This is WAY too indulgent. Can you say Abomination? Risen have
PLENTY of power without having access to fancy Disciplines on top of
it. A Risen with 10 health levels with Fortitude, Protean and
Animalism is just too ugly to be believed, not to mention to keep game
balance. Every single character would want to run out and die and try
coming back just to have all the extra bonuses of being Risen AND
having Disciplines.
I wouldn't let MY players do it.
K.
Anne Gwin
In article <346755cc....@news.connact.com>,
kraig_blackwelder@@@ltg.com wrote:
-snip-
> Fascinate is Risen only if I remember correctly.
The Risen books doesn't *specifically* say that Fascinate and
Serendipity belong to Risen only or that these powers function only in the
Skinlands. All the write-up says is that there are no Guilds built
around/studying these Arcanoi.
-snip-
> This is WAY too indulgent. Can you say Abomination?
Well, It is an Abomination and it is not. See below...
> Risen have PLENTY of power without having access to fancy Disciplines
> on top of it. A Risen with 10 health levels with Fortitude, Protean and
> Animalism is just too ugly to be believed, not to mention to keep game
> balance. Every single character would want to run out and die and try
> coming back just to have all the extra bonuses of being Risen AND
> having Disciplines.
Risen already have access to Celerity, Fortitude, Obfuscate and Potence
(which makes them Abominations according to your definition). But I agree
that Risen are powerful enough with Arcanoi not to need the complementary
*Crow* Disciplines. This was something I cried bloody murder about when
the book came out. There goes White Wolf, marginalizing the Kindred YET
again...
But back to my point, Your Risen above, according to the book rules,
*can* start with Fortitude. The Kindred Risen "Abomination" will simply
have a few more Disciplines (whatever he possessed in life). Now much like
a Garou Abomination, the Kindred Wraith has problems in becoming a Risen.
Fire and Sunlight where probably employed to put him where he is now (the
vessel is effectively cremated). Death by the claws and teeth of Garou or
other older Vampires means your PC Kindred Wraith will probably have
revenge on his rotting brain. And both of the aforementioned are
formidable opponents that would easily equal our *new and improved*
version of the PC.
But regardless of the argument, Risen already have access to four
disciplines and a 3-point merit that makes one of these a Clan equivalent
to boot! Allowing a Kindred Risen to have access to the rest his old
Disciplines is not much of a stretch (unlike the Vampiric Garou
Abomination) from the original Risen rules.
This just gives the Kindred a little something extra they can do aside
from be Wyrm Spawn and hated by everyone...
> I wouldn't let MY players do it.
Hey, its your game and your right to play it however you see fit.
Shadow Wolf
This is taken off of White Wolf web sites, from their Wraith
FAQ:
Can (blank) become a wraith?
Vampires can become wraiths if they are not diablerized
or do not achieve Golconda. However, vampires tend to have lots of
enemies waiting for them on the other side, and ex-Kindred wraiths are
prize catches for Giovanni.
Remember that when a supernatural being becomes a wraith, it
loses all of its old powers. No more Disciplines, Spheres, Gifts or
Rage.
How do I decide if my character becomes a wraith upon death?
Basically, if you can think up reasonable Passions and
Fetters, your Storyteller agrees on it, and it makes the story better,
your character becomes a wraith. There is no chart (12% of all people
killed in drive-by shootings become wraiths) nor rolling of dice. Just
see if it makes sense for your character. Incidentally, turning a
deceased vampire,mage, or what not into a wraith can be a great way
to continue a favorite character (not to mention pester those who
think they've finally seen the last of you-know-who).
Will my vampire still have all of his Disciplines once he becomes a
wraith?
No. Any Awakened being of any type who becomes a wraith
starts out as a basic wraith - no Disciplines, no Spheres, no Rotes,
no Gifts, Cantrips or anything else. Most formerly powerful
supernatural beings take a while to adjust to the Underworld (You mean
I can't throw fireballs any more?). Sometimes that adjustment period
is too long for their own good. Also, a great many Awakened beings
rack up quite a few enemies before crossing the Shroud, and some of
those enemies are certain to be added benefit of years of wraithly
experience.
How you run your games are up to you. But a person can't
conceivably kill their character, expect to automatically become a
wraith and then become a Risen.
If the players want to play that, then RP the whole sequence
through, even finding their old bodies and creating the pack with
their Shadows.
In their own ways Risen have a lot of problems, because they
tend to bend and run off of pure emotions, not to mention the constant
beckoning of his Shadow is stronger. In all things, there are pluses
and minuses.
Shadow Wolf
_______________________________________________
Jack E. Sweek Wolf Pack, Inc.
Lost Destinys' Abyss - Unlock Your Imagination
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/3139
_______________________________________________
"The key to opening the doors in life is to never loose
sight of your dreams and to keep your imagination
always open and soaring"
_______________________________________________
Richard Dansky
For the record, as stated in the Wraith FAQ, in Buried Secrets, and
any number of times on this newsgroups:
Any vampire who did not achieve Golconda before Final Death and who
was not Diablerized becomes a wraith sans disciplines - it's a totally
new paradigm.
(I once tried explaining this using the
Michael-Jordan-is-great-at-basketball-but-lousy-at-baseball metaphor
and got a lot of blank stares. *sigh*)
The odds on the wraith of a vampire becoming Risen are slightly higher
than nil, but not much. Once heart and brain are gone, so's your
chance to Rise. And seeing as most vamps turn into kitty litter once
they get staked...
btw, giving a Risen vampire all of his old Disciplines back is a
mistake. Remember, the Risen doesn't have blood. How's he going to
fuel those Disciplines? The "Disciplines" a Risen gets are
approximations of the vampiric powers - not the same thing.
As for the notion of marginalizing Kindred....*guffaw*. I wish Wraiths
were that marginalized :-)
[Standard disclaimer: 1-The Risen was inspired by a Ray Bradbury
story, Toni Morrison's _Beloved_, the Persephone myth and then The
Crow, IN THAT ORDER. I read "Pillar of Fire" in 5th grade, and it's
what got me into this industry. So nyah. 2-Yes, Risen are powerful.
They also have a lot of weaknesses - if they are played properly.]
-deadguy
--
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=00-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
Richard E. Dansky, aka The Deadguy: Developer, Wraith: The Oblivion &
Mind's Eye Theatre, White Wolf Gaming Studios
00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-00
"I hate the living." - Dr. Laurel Wagner, Men In Black
Nyarlathotep
In article <19971111195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wisa...@aol.com (WisakeJac) wrote:
> Marginalizing? Are we talking about the same Kindred? Who else can get more
> than five points in well, much of anything? Mages? Yeah, I wanna play a
> thaumivore...
Mages can get level six spheres, Garou at start have a max of Nine in
some stats, Fomori and Mummies may raise to eight (and a Mummy eight
outclasses a Kindred ten). Not forgetting Trolls, Satyrs, Sidhe, and other
Fae.
> And Risen don't have access to all the Arcanoi; I got the impression that
> they wanted to make them actually able to compete in physical combat (that
> being a significant aspect to their concept).
I understand this. But why not give them Rage (Gurahl and Garou)? It
would have worked better with the whole revenge angle, and could have been
fed by the Shadow...
> And don't forget how expensive it is for PC Risen to get any disciplines.
7 per dot in character creation, x6 multiple with a merit that reduces
one to x5. Identical to Caitiff Kindred and the Merit creates a Clan
Discipline.
> Um. This whole line is kind of, well, superfluous. Unless your Storyteller
> goes out of his way to arrange for a Kindred to become Risen, it's not all
> that likely.
Yes, I agree fully. And I stated this in my original post.
> Big point to consider: when a Leech bites the Big F.D., their body
> immediately decays to the state that they would be in had they died
when they > were Embraced. One of those mystical things. So, unless
the Kindred dies
> 1) in such a fashion that their body isn't utterly fragged (hard to manage
> with aggravated damage), and 2) less than a couple of years after their
> Embrace (in which case, they shouldn't have that many Disciplines), there
> won't be enough of a body to Skinride. And I personally feel that the
> description in Risen of "different paths to similar ends" negates any chance
> of such a being as being able to use vampiric Disciplines (not having any
> vampiric vitae and all...).
Yes, and Dansky says this in his post. And I agree on both one and two
above.
As for different paths, we'll use Joe Caitiff. He has Celerity, Potence,
Fortitude and Obfuscate at level two-three in each (making him not that
old). By some act of Charon or the Tempest, he becomes a Risen. Are you
going to tell me a body that had these powers is going to have to start
from scratch?
If that is true, then the Wraith should lose some or all of his
Physical-based abilities due to the same atrophy and loss of experience
with a flesh and blood form. His body hasn't fired a gun or performed
surgery in several years, yet he gets all these skills back at the same
level (and any additional levels he acquired as a DISEMBODIED wraith). Not
bloody likely...
This is like the Tzimisce who dies and becomes a Wraith. He is a master
at Vicissitude, but this doesn't convert over. Also he doesn't even get
the benefit of theoretical knowledge in his learning of a power which is
90% similar to his own...
> Now, if you want a munchkin thing, remember that Wyrm-corrupted Garou can, on
> rare occaision, come back as Wraiths... (Good for antagonists. Any
> Storyteller worth his books shouldn't let a Wyrm-corrupt PC Werewolf even
> come back as a Wraith, to say nothing of as a Risen. Go to Oblivion, go
> straight to Oblivion, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 oboli...)
I know this makes an Abomination. But along the lines of the Antagonist
thought, it means that the Garou pack might actually have something to
worry about in a few years. Someone a hell of a lot more dangerous then
the first time they encountered him...
In my game, Wyrm-corrupted Garou become really nasty Psychomachiae, not
Wraiths. One Werewolf-based Abomination is enough...
Ofcourse the Storyteller is always right. And I am a Storyteller. :)
JLHeinig
As for using the Necromancy Discipline to make someone into a wraith, which a
couple people brought up earlier . . .
There are actually two Necromancy Disciplines that I know of which can cause
someone to become a wraith, hence the obvious disparity in the recollection of
the two people earlier trying to figure out what level it was.
The first is the level ten (!!!) Necromancy Discipline of Death Pact (Vampire
Players Guide), which allows the user to create a contract with a second
party. If the Necromancer fulfills the terms of the contract, then the other
party, upon demise, automatically becomes a wraith, and can be summoned and
compelled without a roll. Pretty weak for a tenth level Discipline.
The second is the level nine (!!) Necromancy Discipline of Inurement
(Clanbook: Giovanni), which allows the Necromancer to literally give up the
ghost and become a wraith voluntarily in the moments before death.
Not that a player-character should be using either of these powers in a
typical game . . .
Cheers,
Jess Heinig
WisakeJac
As entropy continued its inexorable assault, David Johnston wrote:
>Richard Dansky wrote:
>>
>> For the record, as stated in the Wraith FAQ, in Buried Secrets, and
>> any number of times on this newsgroups:
>>
>> Any vampire who did not achieve Golconda before Final Death and who
>> was not Diablerized becomes a wraith sans disciplines - it's a totally
>> new paradigm.
>
>Ah-hem. Surely some of them wouldn't have enough unfinished
>business to become a wraith.
Um, actually, depending on how you interpret Wraith 2nd Ed, there's a strong
case for saying that *everyone* who dies becomes a Wraith, Most of them don't
have enough "business" to become the type of Wraith that pcs wind up as, but
they become Drones or fodder for the soulforge. This is, of course, excluding
those who immediately Ascend or who go directly to Oblivion.
Cory
Inaendaugwut.
Teleute - Heather
> > I wouldn't let MY players do it.
well, it all comes down to you and your players.
some players can take what sounds like a very
twinkish/munchkiny concept and make it beautiful,
without taking undue advantage of the spiffy things
they get out of it.
otoh, many can't.
if you know your players are of the former variety,
and you feel comfortable with it, you can do things
like be generous with Disciplines. if your players
are of the latter variety, or you don't feel
comfortable with it, then don't do it.
I've rarely found one rule to be appropriate and/or
necessary across-the-board for every group of players.
_____________________________________________________
heather grove
part-time freelance writer
nigh...@mit.edu
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/nightowl/homepage.html
_____________________________________________________
We are the specters of a madness that surpasses ourselves and hides in
mystery. And though we search for sense throughout endless rooms, all
we may find is a voice whispering from a mirror in a house that belongs
to no one. [Ligotti]
Ian Turner
WisakeJac wrote:
> Mages can get a level six sphere after a century or so of massive, in
> depth study. Garou have boosts to specific attributes at generation
> *in their other forms*.
With a Totem a 6 in a stat is doable in Breed form, even a Homid or
Lupus one.
> Fomori have severe problems on their own, and Mummies flatly cannot
> start with any atts higher than 5.
But can start with Amulets and / or Elixers that raise them.
> Of the various Fae who get stat boosts, only the Satyr's apply in
> their mortal seeming (according to the book). All of these are a
> handful of specific attributes, except for the Mummies (who have to
> invest so much time and effort into it that it's not even funny, and
> then the 8 is only temporary [yeah, temporary enough, but...]).
>
> Kindred can raise Abilities and Backgrounds as well as their
> Attributes. And this is not written as a function of their age, but
> rather their Generation. So Billy-Bob-Catiff Diabolist can go suck a
> high enough Generation Leech dry and start pumping up within the first
> few decades of his existence quite easily. That may not be at
> beginning level, but it's a hell of a lot closer than any of the rest,
> as well as incorporating a great deal more variety.
Using Elysium or Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand rules, Billy-Bob can be
an Elder with 6 or higher in a stat (or in several) at character
generation. All he needs is a shiny new Derangement for each of them...
Ian T
Ian Turner
Nyarlathotep wrote:
> Mages can get level six spheres, Garou at start have a max of Nine in
> some stats,
Strength in Crinos form can reach 10 with the right Totem.
> Fomori and Mummies may raise to eight (and a Mummy eight outclasses a
> Kindred ten).
If you use that (IMO) stupid rule.
> Not forgetting Trolls, Satyrs, Sidhe, and other Fae.
>
> I understand this. But why not give them Rage (Gurahl and Garou)? It
> would have worked better with the whole revenge angle, and could have
> been fed by the Shadow...
The Risen concept would have worked better with Rage than with
pseudo-Disciplines. VERY interesting idea!
> > Big point to consider: when a Leech bites the Big F.D., their body
> > immediately decays to the state that they would be in had they died
> > when they were Embraced. One of those mystical things. So, unless
> > the Kindred dies
Decay is overstated. Without bacterial action or elemental erosion the
human body can survive for 1000's of years. So does the 100 or so year
old Kindred turn to dust? Not bloody likely. Sure, he becomes a body
that is 100 years dead, but 100 years worth of bacterial action or wind
and water action do not suddenly occur around him (holy hurricane! And
the stench!). I have actually read that the body could survive in such
a state for 10's of 1000's of years, but since no Kindred is likely to
be that old the point is moot...
Ian T
Nyarlathotep
In the original thread I suggested that Rage (à la Werewolf) might be
more suited to augment Risen physical and fighting prowess then the
"Pseudo" Disciplines of Celerity, Fortitude and Potence. After reading
somepeoples interest in my idea, I came up with these rules during my
breaks at work today.
Disclaimer: I am not a big Wraith Storyteller (I run a Wholistic WoD game
and only one of my players has wanted to play one), so some of these may
not be entirely accurate. Please bear with me.
Rage for Risen:
When a Wraith becomes a Risen, his Psyche brings the majority of the
powers when he returns. The implementation of Rage instead of Disciplines
displays what the Shadow brings to this reunion of spirit to flesh.
A wraiths initial Rage upon return equals the Angst possessed by the
Shadow. New Risen characters determine Rage by using the Angst
determination rules found on page 169 of _Wraith: the Oblivion_ 2nd
edition. The new Risen has full access to this pool, as this is a team
effort by the Pysche and the Shadow.
Any gain of Angst while Risen is recorded as a corresponding increase
in Rage (temporary or permanent). Any direct expenditures of Angst by the
Shadow will reduce temporary Rage only.
Rage grants the Risen several abilities:
Augmented Physical Attributes: This is much like the Gurahl's use of
Rage. Each Rage point expended grants one automatic success in the chosen
Attribute (up to current rating in attribute).
Negate Damage: A Risen may negate one level of Damage (including
Aggravated!) by spending a point of Rage. The maximum that may be spent
equals the Risen's current rating in Stamina.
Extra Actions: as per page 155 of _Werewolf: the Apocalypse_ 2nd Ed.
Frenzy: A Risen must make a Frenzy roll everytime he is confronted with
certian situations regarding his Passions (this includes Shadow Passions).
Should the loved one covered by the Passion: "Protect Sarah (love)" be
threatened, the Risen makes a roll. The same goes for a Risen confronting
his killers if one of his Passions be revenge against said killers.
Certian passions are not affected by this rule (finish novel, etc...). You
get the picture.
Recovering from Stun: see page 156 _W:tA_ 2nd Ed.
Remaining Active: use the rules that appear on page 156 of _W:tA_ 2nd
Ed. Each Health Level recovered in this fashion subtracts one from the
Risen's Pathos pool.
Determining period of Unconsciousness: Permanent Rage replaces the
Stamina + Fortitude on the roll required for length of unconsciousness
roll. The old Rage to live, Heh... Heh... :)
Rage also has its drawbacks:
Shadow Presence: see Beast Within, page 156 of _W:tA_ 2nd Ed.
Abnormal Frenzy: The rules for Abnormal Frenzy are identical to those
used for Garou (see page 201 of _W:tA_ 2nd Ed.). The result is a bit
different. During Abnormal Frenzy, the Shadow has goaded the Psyche too
far, allowing the Shadow to bump the Psyche and temporarily jump into the
driver's seat.
Shadows that are obsessed with the destruction of the Risen's friends
and allies will take this oppurtunity to attack them. In all cases the
Shadow will take this opportunity to follow its personal agenda in the
most efficient and effective way possible (frenzies are temporary, gotta
make the most of them).
Other Nastiness: While Frenzied, a Risen (much like a frenzied Vampire)
may perform actions that run against his personal ethos (more so than
those normally performed as a Risen). These are dealt with like any other
possible gain of temporary Angst (see "Storyteller Discretion", page 175
of _W:tO_ 2nd Ed.).
Splitting Rage:
The Risen may split his Rage expenditure between different attributes.
This is done by dividing the two applicable attributes rating by two. Joe
Bob has a Str 4 and Dex 2. He splits his Rage and gains a benefit of one
extra attack with an additional two dice of automatic damage. Simple.
Well, there you have it. Rage for Risen. A little better in that it
cost the player little. A little worse as the Shadow gets to be a bit more
active. I suppose there is no simple way to deal with Obfuscate...
Ideas and thoughts?
Rod Kutch
WisakeJac
As entropy continued its inexorable assault, Nyarlahotep wrote:
> In the original thread I suggested that Rage (à la Werewolf) might be
>more suited to augment Risen physical and fighting prowess then the
>"Pseudo" Disciplines of Celerity, Fortitude and Potence.
>>[snip some stuff, specific rules among it]<<
> Well, there you have it. Rage for Risen. A little better in that it
>cost the player little. A little worse as the Shadow gets to be a bit more
>active. I suppose there is no simple way to deal with Obfuscate...
>
> Ideas and thoughts?
I like it. Only have two problems, and one of those is pretty niggling. I
think that a thesaurus ought to be gotten out to select a different name.
Just to avoid all the people who would then decide that Risen can do
everything with their Rage that a Garou can...and there *are* people out there
like that. Personally, I would *not* allow a Kinfolk Risen (there's a
thought...) to fuel Garou gifts with the Rage. It's not Gaia's, it's theirs.
(This is the same problem I've had with the "Disciplines". They aren't
vampiric!)
Major difficulty: I dislike the direct association between Angst and Rage. At
that point, it becomes beneficial to the Psyche to gain Angst at times. This
will have the effect of making the players less conscious of their actions,
since they can always get rid of the Shadow's temporary power by spending
Rage.
I'm also meaner than you, I guess. I'd do normal Frenzies as the Shadow
gaining control for the duration, and the Abnormal Frenzy as having the Psyche
and Shadow trade places as per what happens when they get knocked down all the
way.
Other than that, why bother adding Obfuscate? Dex+Stealth, with beaucoup
additional successes... Maybe the specialty "Quick" on that Stealth. Works
for me...
Cory
Inaendaugwut.
etho...@flash.net
In Article<19971119190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, <wisa...@aol.com>
write:
> As entropy continued its inexorable assault, Nyarlahotep wrote:
>
> > In the original thread I suggested that Rage (à la Werewolf) might be
> >more suited to augment Risen physical and fighting prowess then the
> >"Pseudo" Disciplines of Celerity, Fortitude and Potence.
>
> >>[snip some stuff, specific rules among it]<<
>
> > Well, there you have it. Rage for Risen. A little better in that it
> >cost the player little. A little worse as the Shadow gets to be a bit more
> >active. I suppose there is no simple way to deal with Obfuscate...
> >
> > Ideas and thoughts?
>
> I like it. Only have two problems, and one of those is pretty niggling. I
> think that a thesaurus ought to be gotten out to select a different name.
> Just to avoid all the people who would then decide that Risen can do
> everything with their Rage that a Garou can...and there *are* people out
there
> like that. Personally, I would *not* allow a Kinfolk Risen (there's a
> thought...) to fuel Garou gifts with the Rage. It's not Gaia's, it's
theirs.
Call it Fury.
Eric the .5b
Nyarlathotep
In article <19971119190...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wisa...@aol.com (WisakeJac) wrote:
> I like it. Only have two problems, and one of those is pretty niggling. I
> think that a thesaurus ought to be gotten out to select a different name.
> Just to avoid all the people who would then decide that Risen can do
> everything with their Rage that a Garou can...and there *are* people out there
> like that. Personally, I would *not* allow a Kinfolk Risen (there's a
> thought...) to fuel Garou gifts with the Rage. It's not Gaia's, it's theirs.
> (This is the same problem I've had with the "Disciplines". They aren't
> vampiric!)
Perhaps simply Anger. Risen tend to be angry critters for one reason or
the other. It goes well with Angst. Fortunately for us, you can have Anger
(Rage) and not have Gifts.
I would allow Kinfolk Risen, but they would be simply Risen without
Gifts. The Risen is dead with no spiritual ties to the Earth or Umbra. And
their troubled Spirit/Soul is now outside of Gaia's embrace.
As for acquiring Rage-based Gifts, their walking corpses. They are an
abomination in the eyes of Gaia (like Vampires). No spirit in his right
mind is going to teach him and Garou tend to avoid Risen like the Plague
(see _Axis Mundi_ on dead things learning gifts).
>
> Major difficulty: I dislike the direct association between Angst and Rage.
> At that point, it becomes beneficial to the Psyche to gain Angst at times.
> This will have the effect of making the players less conscious of their
> actions, since they can always get rid of the Shadow's temporary power by
> spending Rage.
But remember the rules in _Werewolf_ governing the the expenditure of
Rage. Our Risen will only be able to spend them in *times of stress*. This
means he still has to watch his Angst accruement, as he can't just spend
them at the drop of a hat. It also means that he will most likely have to
place himself in a stressful situation inorder "cut lose"so that he may
expend/lose some of his acquired Angst. Which will probably lead to the
acquistion of even more Angst (if he accidently kills someone in a
bar-room brawl). And so on, as he spirals downward...
What this means is the Risen had better get his shit done quickly and
in short order, or his Shadow is gonna rock his world. No slackin' in the
Skinlands...
> I'm also meaner than you, I guess. I'd do normal Frenzies as the Shadow
> gaining control for the duration, and the Abnormal Frenzy as having the
> Psyche and Shadow trade places as per what happens when they get knocked down
> all the way.
This is why I asked for help. This is a good idea, but I wouldn't give
the Shadow complete control during a frenzy, but would make A Risens
frenzy more like Vampiric frenzy. I am going to have to do some more
reading today for the Abnormal Frenzy suggestion. Thats a rule I am not
too familiar with.
> Other than that, why bother adding Obfuscate? Dex+Stealth, with beaucoup
> additional successes... Maybe the specialty "Quick" on that Stealth. Works
> for me...
Or the Arcane Background from Mage. It's already used by Mummies and
Custos. Though making a high Dex + Stealth close to it would work as well
(Personal Disappearances only, no Mask of a Thousand Faces or Cloak of the
Gathering).
More thoughts...
Rod K.
Mr.Goodbytes
I don't like it. It makes vamps too much like werewolf. And why would
they have so much internal fury? Secondly, it breaks from the supernatural
power theme of vampire. I dont't like that. Why not just give werwolves
the disipline Dominate then? Cause its stupid.
Christopher John Record
On 23 Nov 1997, Mr.Goodbytes wrote:
::I don't like it. It makes vamps too much like werewolf. And why would
::they have so much internal fury? Secondly, it breaks from the supernatural
::power theme of vampire. I dont't like that. Why not just give werwolves
::the disipline Dominate then? Cause its stupid.
Ignore the was:. This is referring only to Risen Wraiths, who have
come back from teh grave. It has nothing to do with Vampires.
And what with the different clans out there, I'd love to know what the
"supernatural theme" is, as opposed to Mage, 'Wolf, Wraith, or
Changeling.
'Drake.
--
CjR/'Drake/ICEfx.
Rose, rose, rose red.
Shall I ever see thee wed?
I will marry at thy will, sire,
At thy will.
Nyarlathotep
In article <01bcf7d6$60cde6e0$2c068ed0@coke>, "Mr.Goodbytes"
<toxic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't like it. It makes vamps too much like werewolf. And why would
> they have so much internal fury?
Probably from being shot in the head by some arsehole who wanted his
wallet just so he could get fixed for a night. Maybe from being ripped and
severed from his wife and children, the only things he ever truly loved.
Add to this the fact that everytime he "visits" his family, he sees the
ever-compounding financial burden that the loss of his income has created.
And let's not forget that Shadow, a furnace of frustration due to the
Psyche's resistance to embracing the Shadow's beloved Oblivion.
It is all subjective. And by-the-way, Risen aren't Vamps.
> Secondly, it breaks from the supernatural power theme of vampire.
Just what the hell does does a Wraith become Risen have to do with Vampire?
> I dont't like that.
Fine.
> Why not just give werwolves the disipline Dominate then? Cause its stupid.
Because they already have Gifts that do that. But I suppose since Risen
already have disciplines, we could include the Garou as well. Like maybe a
Danislav-born Shadow Lord? Gifts and Disciplines! All in one Gaia beloved
package!
Rod K.
Who thought up this Rage for Risen instead of using Disciplines.
Z
Nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu (Nyarlathotep) spake unto us:
>In article <01bcf7d6$60cde6e0$2c068ed0@coke>, "Mr.Goodbytes"
><toxic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't like it. It makes vamps too much like werewolf. And why would
>> they have so much internal fury?
>
> Probably from being shot in the head by some arsehole who wanted his
>wallet just so he could get fixed for a night. Maybe from being ripped and
>severed from his wife and children, the only things he ever truly loved.
>Add to this the fact that everytime he "visits" his family, he sees the
>ever-compounding financial burden that the loss of his income has created.
> And let's not forget that Shadow, a furnace of frustration due to the
>Psyche's resistance to embracing the Shadow's beloved Oblivion.
> It is all subjective. And by-the-way, Risen aren't Vamps.
So you say Wraiths/Risen can have overwelming anger and hate (among
other emotions)? And they get fustrated by their Shadow's
machinations? Let's see, Passion, Pathos, and Angst. hey look, it's
ALREADY in the Wraith rules! How about that!
Yeah, I guess they should get Rage too, instead of a Passion of Anger.
Because Rage is only anger from Gaia and ANYONE who's pissed off can
get that!
>> Why not just give werwolves the disipline Dominate then? Cause its stupid.
>
> Because they already have Gifts that do that. But I suppose since Risen
>already have disciplines, we could include the Garou as well. Like maybe a
>Danislav-born Shadow Lord? Gifts and Disciplines! All in one Gaia beloved
>package!
Risen have access to 3 or 4 Disciplines. But instead of doing that, I
guess white wolf should have just taken up the page space to make 4
new arcanoi that do the same thing as the Vampire Disciplines they
would get anyway.
Z
________________________________
"If this is some Ninja
trick, I will feast on
your steaming entrails!"
"Oooo. Nice image.
You must save on your grocery
bills."
-Paul the Samuri and one of a million zillion ninjas
Tick, "A Big Fight"
-----------------------------------
WisakeJac
As entropy continued its inexorable assault, "Z" wrote:
>So you say Wraiths/Risen can have overwelming anger and hate (among
>other emotions)? And they get fustrated by their Shadow's
>machinations? Let's see, Passion, Pathos, and Angst. hey look, it's
>ALREADY in the Wraith rules! How about that!
>
>Yeah, I guess they should get Rage too, instead of a Passion of Anger.
>Because Rage is only anger from Gaia and ANYONE who's pissed off can
>get that!
Let's hear it for "constructive" criticism from people who obviously haven't
been following the thread!
Guys, the point here was that the psuedo-Disciplines make the abilities Risen
have, especially when you consider that Kindred can become Risen (rarely, but
it can happen), too ambiguous, as well as not really being in keeping with the
theme that a few of us percieve for Risen. Rod came up with something that I,
at least, think might work with a mature player and Storyteller. If you don't
like the suggestions that have been posted, fine. If you have something
intelligent to say about it one way or another, we'd like to hear it. But if
you're going to tear apart something when you have no idea about what you are
speaking, then expect a negative response.
But, to address something that almost was a point:
>Risen have access to 3 or 4 Disciplines. But instead of doing that, I
>guess white wolf should have just taken up the page space to make 4
>new arcanoi that do the same thing as the Vampire Disciplines they
>would get anyway.
Again, we don't feel that is was the best that it could be. Granted, White
Wolf has space constraints and writer's fees and printer deadlines to worry
about, while we don't. But calling them Disciplines is too ambiguous, IMHO,
and for the most part, I see them as being 1) too long to develop for what a
Risen ought to be doing, and 2) not really keeping with the themes of Risen.
Obfuscate is too subtle a power for Risen to really have. Not that they
necessarilly shouldn't be able to hide, but not like the vampiric "You see what
I want you to see".
Cory
Inaendaugwut.
Nyarlathotep
In article <64vbre$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, nigh...@mit.edu
(Teleute - Heather) wrote:
> > Augmented Physical Attributes:
> ...
> > Negate Damage:
> ...
> > Ideas and thoughts?
> >
> >Rod Kutch
>
> just one. people *already* complain that Risen are tanks; this
> makes them much worse. nothing should be that difficult to take
> down. remember that Risen don't suffer penalties for losing corpus
> levels, and they have corpus at 10 whereas health levels are at 7.
> there's just no need to make them even more indestructible.
> certainly not as PCs; and if you *need* NPCs that hard to destroy,
> then perhaps your party is getting out of hand. there are other
> ways to challenge such parties than with pumped combat monsters.
But one must remember that Risen have a serious weakness: their
Conduit. Any Mage with sufficient Spirit, Entropy, or Prime, A Vampire
with Auspex, or Garou with whatever magic-sensing gift they've got can
lock-on to and destroy the Risen's Conduit (especially the Mage).
The Advantages to Rage used as I stated them is that though the Risen
comes on strong, he has no staying power. He will spend that Rage pretty
fast, where he could get up to five attacks around for one Pathos using
Pseudo Celerity. The Rage advantages only last for the combat round they
are spent on.
I know the Risen using the Rage system gets alot of power upon coming
back, but the Risen using Pseudo Disciplines has greater power (twink)
potential.
Rod K.
Nyarlathotep
In article <347a6c1c...@news.csun.edu>,
ejz...@csun.KILL-EMAIL-ADS.edu (Z) wrote:
> Yeah, I guess they should get Rage too, instead of a Passion of Anger.
I point you back to the thread proper. Read Deja News. Then point out
specific flaws with my idea.
> Because Rage is only anger from Gaia and ANYONE who's pissed off can
> get that!
So why do Paradox Spirits, Umbrood Lords, Banes, and Fomori have Rage?
I don't remember any of these critters having much to do with Gaia...
> Risen have access to 3 or 4 Disciplines. But instead of doing that, I
> guess white wolf should have just taken up the page space to make 4
> new arcanoi that do the same thing as the Vampire Disciplines they
> would get anyway.
Agreed. My reasoning for the use of Rage being that it is already a
universal trait (unlike Disciplines which are Vampire-specific powers) in
use among a plethora of spiritual critters (umbrood, banes, etc...) and
the system already in place (and simpler than disciplines).
Dansky was probably trying to do this with the Disciplines and for the
most part succeeded. That is until you get to the little rule about
Vampires becoming Wraiths. "No, your Brujah learned Discipline equivalent
of Mac OS 86, the Wraiths use Win 95-equivalent Disciplines. Though
functionally similar, you still have to re-learn all of them from
scratch."
This "official" stance doesn't make much sense to me (its a knee jerk
reaction in the opposite end of the spectrum from the Abomination of
earlier WW works), when you consider that a Wraith can pick up
neurosurgery in the Shadowlands, then become Risen, and have the steady
hands of an experienced and accomplished neurosurgeon.