Lunars vs. Garou?
Hand-of-Omega
copy in yet, dangit), how do the combat caste of the Lunar Exalted
stack up to a Garou Ahroun in all out combat? Is it a total blowout,
either way, or fairly even? If anyone is interested in playing this
out, maybe the Garou should get a Grand Kliave, for balance?
Dex,
who might not be posting for awhile...
James Stein
"Hand-of-Omega" <smili...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:27420f11.02112...@posting.google.com...
I was tempted to react with a simple, "Psssh, garou all the way."
On second thought, however... I'm pretty sure that a Lunar could wreck a
Garou any day of the week. Hell, I'm pretty sure a Lunar with some XP under
her belt could take out a garou pack.
Graham Brown
> copy in yet, dangit), how do the combat caste of the Lunar Exalted
> stack up to a Garou Ahroun in all out combat? Is it a total blowout,
> either way, or fairly even? If anyone is interested in playing this
> out, maybe the Garou should get a Grand Kliave, for balance?
Apples and oranges.
G.B.
--
=====
Living on a lighted stage, approaches the unreal,
for those who think and feel, in touch with some reality beyond the gilded
cage.
Rush - "Limelight"
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > For those who've got the darned book (store still hasn't gotten my
> > copy in yet, dangit), how do the combat caste of the Lunar Exalted
> > stack up to a Garou Ahroun in all out combat? Is it a total blowout,
> > either way, or fairly even? If anyone is interested in playing this
> > out, maybe the Garou should get a Grand Kliave, for balance?
>
> Apples and oranges.
Both of which are fruit, and of these two fruits one would shred the
other into easily packaged chunks of meat for your local grocer.
--
E. D. Brooks | kalima...@attbi.com | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Why, in my day, we used to fight the Lord of
Terror with nothing but a sharp stick!" -- www.reallifecomics.com
Hand-of-Omega
What, even considering Rage, Regeneration, and Agg damage?!
Dex,
who really wants you to go into detail here...^_~
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> What, even considering Rage, Regeneration, and Agg damage?!
Rage runs out more quickly than motes, or can't be used quickly enough
to keep up with Lunar multi-action charms. Regeneration isn't so useful
when your opponent's claws, teeth, and weapons are moonsilver, and agg
isn't so useful when your opponent can dodge and soak all of your
attacks with relative ease. Sure, you could get your one die of agg per
turn, but your opposition could have upwards of 27 health levels,
discounting any gained from DBT.
I could argue that Garou claws and fangs just wouldn't do aggravated to
Lunars, given the number of things in the Second Age that just don't in
the first place, but I'll leave that alone right now.
James Stein
> "James Stein" <James...@si.rr.$pam.com> wrote in message
news:<HCQE9.165865$gB.34...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> What, even considering Rage, Regeneration, and Agg damage?!
>
> Dex,
> who really wants you to go into detail here...^_~
Rage is useless in comparison to Lunar multi-action charms; well, not
/useless/... but a good combo can score a Lunar an easy bonus 3 actions, for
about 5 motes, /every turn/... a Garou can keep that pace up for 2 or 3
turns before he/she/it runs out of Rage. Or dies.
Regeneration doesn't really put it ahead of a Lunar. A lunar can have the
Deadly Beastman Transformation charm, which will give it the same advantage.
That, and considering that a Garou soak simply reduces damage taken on a
succesful roll (instead of a direct subtraction of successful attack dice),
probably means that the Garou is going to have to be soaking about 20-40
damage dice per attack.
Agg damage isn't that useful either; Garou attack pools can't top out past
12, while a Lunar has an easy soak pool of 20+, and a couple unpenetrable
defense charms can be found, as well.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> "Hand-of-Omega" <smili...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:27420f11.02120...@posting.google.com...
> > "James Stein" <James...@si.rr.$pam.com> wrote in message
> news:<HCQE9.165865$gB.34...@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
>
> > What, even considering Rage, Regeneration, and Agg damage?!
> >
> > Dex,
> > who really wants you to go into detail here...^_~
>
> Rage is useless in comparison to Lunar multi-action charms; well, not
> /useless/... but a good combo can score a Lunar an easy bonus 3 actions, for
> about 5 motes, /every turn/... a Garou can keep that pace up for 2 or 3
> turns before he/she/it runs out of Rage. Or dies.
Agreed that Rage isn't that useful.
> Regeneration doesn't really put it ahead of a Lunar. A lunar can have the
> Deadly Beastman Transformation charm, which will give it the same advantage.
> That, and considering that a Garou soak simply reduces damage taken on a
> succesful roll (instead of a direct subtraction of successful attack dice),
> probably means that the Garou is going to have to be soaking about 20-40
> damage dice per attack.
If I were to do a Lunar vs. Garou fight, I'd let the Garou use the
Exalted dice mechanics, including damage/soak. It doesn't make much
difference.
> Agg damage isn't that useful either; Garou attack pools can't top out past
> 12, while a Lunar has an easy soak pool of 20+, and a couple unpenetrable
> defense charms can be found, as well.
"One success and I completely dodge/block your attack" charms, yes.
Agent Groove
Exalted and the WoD - I consider them completely different settings, where
the Second Age of Exalted does not lead into the World of Darkness' 6th Age.
That said, the Lunars book was a pretty fine peice of work, and made great
sense in Exalted's context. My heart still goes out to the Immaculate
Order's Dragon Blooded Monks. Despite that they have been suckered by the
Sidereal Bronze faction, they are far too cool.
Waiting for the Sidereals book!
CB
"E. Deirdre Brooks" <KaliMa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DEB558F...@attbi.com...
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> To keep myself sane, I work in my mind to completely disconnect the world of
> Exalted and the WoD - I consider them completely different settings, where
> the Second Age of Exalted does not lead into the World of Darkness' 6th Age.
That's nice. Lots of people feel that way. I'm not sure why it's
relevant, but...
> That said, the Lunars book was a pretty fine peice of work, and made great
> sense in Exalted's context. My heart still goes out to the Immaculate
> Order's Dragon Blooded Monks. Despite that they have been suckered by the
> Sidereal Bronze faction, they are far too cool.
The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
> Waiting for the Sidereals book!
And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
Richard Clayton
> Agent Groove wrote:
>
>>To keep myself sane, I work in my mind to completely disconnect the world of
>>Exalted and the WoD - I consider them completely different settings, where
>>the Second Age of Exalted does not lead into the World of Darkness' 6th Age.
>
>
> That's nice. Lots of people feel that way. I'm not sure why it's
> relevant, but...
... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
>>That said, the Lunars book was a pretty fine peice of work, and made great
>>sense in Exalted's context. My heart still goes out to the Immaculate
>>Order's Dragon Blooded Monks. Despite that they have been suckered by the
>>Sidereal Bronze faction, they are far too cool.
>
> The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
Yes. The setting alone is reason enough to play a Terrestrial Exalted,
even aside from the raw coolness factor of elementally-aspected powers.
>>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
>
>
> And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
Maidens, after all.
Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
fanwank behavior.
--
The e-mail address above is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.
Richard Clayton
Licensed Warstrider Technician
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
> > Agent Groove wrote:
> >
> >>To keep myself sane, I work in my mind to completely disconnect the world of
> >>Exalted and the WoD - I consider them completely different settings, where
> >>the Second Age of Exalted does not lead into the World of Darkness' 6th Age.
> >
> >
> > That's nice. Lots of people feel that way. I'm not sure why it's
> > relevant, but...
>
> ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
> the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
> out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
And Earthdawn and Shadowrun didn't suck, the crossovers didn't make them
suck, and that people in general overreacted mightily to the
cross-references.
> > The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
>
> Yes. The setting alone is reason enough to play a Terrestrial Exalted,
> even aside from the raw coolness factor of elementally-aspected powers.
Well, this is true. Hurling bolts of flame is hard to beat.
> >>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
> >
> >
> > And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
>
> Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
> Maidens, after all.
Well, I imagine they will be powerful, since they're all Celestial
Exalted and stuff.
> Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
> wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
> b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
> fanwank behavior.
It is indeed, hence my statement that it will happen.
Agent Groove
> ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
> the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
> out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
I don't want my Exalted world dependant in any way, shape or form on the
World of Darkness. Not to say that games that are run with that in mind
can't be cool, or that fact used to make a point. Instead, I think Exalted
is a wonderful setting that stands firmly on it's own. Let me modify that -
my current game I'm running *now* has no connection to the WoD at all, due
to the themes I want to explore. But that's not to say that I won't one day
run a game that's part of WWGS's 6 age cycle. I'm even considering using
the mechanics for WOD Cainites in Exalted, for Vampires who have identical
nature and powers but do not have any of the same legdendry of WoD Cainites,
but instead spring from a different source. Perhaps from the Yozis or
Deathlords?
> >>That said, the Lunars book was a pretty fine peice of work, and made
great
> >>sense in Exalted's context. My heart still goes out to the Immaculate
> >>Order's Dragon Blooded Monks. Despite that they have been suckered by
the
> >>Sidereal Bronze faction, they are far too cool.
> >
> > The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
Ah, my fave part of the setting is actually the mysteries of the First Age,
the contradictory roles as heroes and demons that the Solars were, and what
kind of lost world the Solars ruled. The DB's have the coolest part of the
setting because they effectively rule ALL of the setting.
> Yes. The setting alone is reason enough to play a Terrestrial Exalted,
> even aside from the raw coolness factor of elementally-aspected powers.
Solar powers are by no means lame either! And not just for the PowerZ
RoolZ.
> >>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
> >
> >
> > And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
>
> Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
> Maidens, after all.
>
> Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
> wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
> b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
> fanwank behavior.
Because, Rich, it's happened so often in the past (and WWGS is by no means
soley guilty of this), gamers almost expect this par for the course.
I eagerly await the Sidereal and Abyssals book.
--
"A leader gets power from followers.
"Violence is always an option."
"A good man does all things well"
"Mistakes are made, and fixed."
Proverbs of Orlanth, King of the Storm Gods
Chris Bell
cor...@optonline.net
arg...@agoron.com
Frederic SO
<richzigard...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
>the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
>out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
>
Looks like that i am in the minority, i liked the crossover idea
behind Shadorun and Earthdawn.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> >
> > ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
> > the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
> > out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
>
> I don't want my Exalted world dependant in any way, shape or form on the
> World of Darkness. Not to say that games that are run with that in mind
> can't be cool, or that fact used to make a point.
So why even participate in threads where people explicitly discuss such
links? I mean, I don't understand the spoiler instinct to jump in and
say "THAT'S WRONG!" when people are clearly in their own grooves.
> Instead, I think Exalted
> is a wonderful setting that stands firmly on it's own.
It does, of course. This does not mean that comparisons, analysis of
linkages (explicit or implicit in the text), and other such pastimes in
any way detract from the setting.
> > > The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
>
> Ah, my fave part of the setting is actually the mysteries of the First Age,
> the contradictory roles as heroes and demons that the Solars were, and what
> kind of lost world the Solars ruled. The DB's have the coolest part of the
> setting because they effectively rule ALL of the setting.
Well, by "all" you mean 1/3 - 1/2 of the world, right? I mean, there's a
lot of Threshold out on the Threshold.
> > Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
> > wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
> > b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
> > fanwank behavior.
>
> Because, Rich, it's happened so often in the past (and WWGS is by no means
> soley guilty of this), gamers almost expect this par for the course.
This isn't really an excuse, though. I mean, the fact that it has
happened in the past (Vampire < Werewolf < Mage) does *not* mean that
it's fine to turn off one's critical thinking and start spouting off on
suppositions.
> I eagerly await the Sidereal and Abyssals book.
As well you should.
Exalted has coolness escalation - each core book is better than the
last. Sidereals are cool enough that playing one could kill the average
gamer.
Scott McCollum
news:2mldvuond1a6t8jpj...@4ax.com...
I believe they were, awhile ago, planning to bring the Horrors from
Earthdawn into the Shadowrun setting. But, that is a bit off-topic, so I'll
finish here.
[Fatalist]
> Well, by "all" you mean 1/3 - 1/2 of the world, right? I mean, there's a
> lot of Threshold out on the Threshold.
Geoff quote! Geoff quote!
(Yeah, that would be more correctly called a quotation, or a paraphrase
because of the change of one word, but it doesn't sound as good when you're
loudly yelling it like a cracked-out monkey at your computer screen while
congratulating yourself on recognizing the source of an sorta-kinda-obscure
gaming quotation. Try it, you'll hear the difference.)
--
[Fatalist]
np: Hecate, "Screemers"
"Avoid being killed, purely for the sake of the fact that while dispensing
death is industrial, death itself is gothic, and do you really want your
tombstone to read 'here lies Jamie, the dead gothic fuck?'"
--Voltair, rec.music.industrial
James Stein
"Scott McCollum" <sc...@themccollums.com> wrote in message
news:boqdncVfw_S...@wideopenwest.com...
Off-Topic...is...bad... in aggww?
Continue, man, continue!
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> I believe they were, awhile ago, planning to bring the Horrors from
> Earthdawn into the Shadowrun setting. But, that is a bit off-topic, so I'll
> finish here.
They did bring Horrors in, and one (Ysrthgrathe) was already in two
novels or so. They were then banished from the game line through
Dunkelzahn's heroic sacrifice.
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>>E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
>>
>>>Agent Groove wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>To keep myself sane, I work in my mind to completely disconnect the world of
>>>>Exalted and the WoD - I consider them completely different settings, where
>>>>the Second Age of Exalted does not lead into the World of Darkness' 6th Age.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's nice. Lots of people feel that way. I'm not sure why it's
>>>relevant, but...
>>
>> ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
>>the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
>>out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
>
>
> And Earthdawn and Shadowrun didn't suck, the crossovers didn't make them
> suck, and that people in general overreacted mightily to the
> cross-references.
/Earthdawn/ did not suck, although it did not particularly tickle my
fancy. /Shadowrun/ is actually one of my top three favorite games.
(Although, to be fair, I count "All White Wolf Games" as one game,
otherwise WWGS would eat up more than half of my top ten all by itself.)
I did find the constant crossover irritating and gratuitous; it came to
a point when every major metaplot referenced the Fourth Age. (So I just
ignored them.) Although this had nothing to do with the reason I stopped
buying /Shadowrun/ books. I generally reach a point when I feel like
I've got enough sourcebooks to form a comprehensive toolset for
game-writing; anything else I need I can easily make up as I go. White
Wolf is the exception to this; I suspect I would keep buying your books
even if I knew with certainty that I'd never play an RPG again in my life.
>>>The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
>>
>> Yes. The setting alone is reason enough to play a Terrestrial Exalted,
>>even aside from the raw coolness factor of elementally-aspected powers.
>
> Well, this is true. Hurling bolts of flame is hard to beat.
Yes. Especially when combined with shouts like "House Cathak Ultimate
Technique: Ten Thousand Fireball Swarm!"
>>>>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
>>>
>>>
>>>And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
>>
>> Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
>>Maidens, after all.
>
>
> Well, I imagine they will be powerful, since they're all Celestial
> Exalted and stuff.
Well, yes. I think that's one of the key elements of the game. (^_^)
>> Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
>>wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
>>b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
>>fanwank behavior.
>
>
> It is indeed, hence my statement that it will happen.
... and indeed, HAS. Both hardbacks since the corebook have triggered
their share of "The new Exalteds are to POWWERFULL!!" whines.
Richard Clayton
>>... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
>>the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
>>out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
>
>
> I don't want my Exalted world dependant in any way, shape or form on the
> World of Darkness.
Lucky you! It isn't.
> Not to say that games that are run with that in mind
> can't be cool, or that fact used to make a point. Instead, I think Exalted
> is a wonderful setting that stands firmly on it's own. Let me modify that -
> my current game I'm running *now* has no connection to the WoD at all, due
> to the themes I want to explore. But that's not to say that I won't one day
> run a game that's part of WWGS's 6 age cycle.
That's the way it's meant to be played. Nowhere does it say that the
Age of Sorrows absolutely MUST lead up to the World of Darkness. It is
your game; make it what you want it to be.
> I'm even considering using
> the mechanics for WOD Cainites in Exalted, for Vampires who have identical
> nature and powers but do not have any of the same legdendry of WoD Cainites,
> but instead spring from a different source. Perhaps from the Yozis or
> Deathlords?
I suspect that modern vampires come from an Exalt who learned to "pass
on" his Exaltation, but it weakens a bit every time it is passed on. Of
course, that's assuming that the particular WoD game I'm running stems
from /Exalted/, which is by no means a safe assumption to make.
>>>>That said, the Lunars book was a pretty fine peice of work, and made
>>>
> great
>
>>>>sense in Exalted's context. My heart still goes out to the Immaculate
>>>>Order's Dragon Blooded Monks. Despite that they have been suckered by
>>>
> the
>
>>>>Sidereal Bronze faction, they are far too cool.
>>>
>>>The Dragon-Blooded have the coolest part of the setting, to be sure.
>>
>
> Ah, my fave part of the setting is actually the mysteries of the First Age,
> the contradictory roles as heroes and demons that the Solars were, and what
> kind of lost world the Solars ruled. The DB's have the coolest part of the
> setting because they effectively rule ALL of the setting.
No. They rule the Blessed Isle. They have a great deal of control over
the Threshold. Beyond that, it's anybody's ballgame. (^_^)
>>Yes. The setting alone is reason enough to play a Terrestrial Exalted,
>>even aside from the raw coolness factor of elementally-aspected powers.
>
> Solar powers are by no means lame either! And not just for the PowerZ
> RoolZ.
>>>>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
>>>
>>>
>>>And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
>>
>>Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
>>Maidens, after all.
>>
>>Unless, of course, you mean "more powerful than the Solar Exalted." I
>>wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
>>b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
>>fanwank behavior.
>
>
> Because, Rich, it's happened so often in the past (and WWGS is by no means
> soley guilty of this), gamers almost expect this par for the course.
Compare Lunars and Terrestrials carefully to Solars. Pay particular
attention to what they look like with 500+ XP under their belts. Solars
are still more powerful. This is not to say that a Solar can or even
SHOULD be able to pimpslap any ten Lunars of the same general rank and
experience, however; they are ALL the Chosen of the Gods.
/Exalted/ doesn't have power escalation; it has COOLNESS escalation.
> I eagerly await the Sidereal and Abyssals book.
So do we all.
Richard Clayton
Then you are different and strange. Cease this unrepentant
individuality at ONCE!
Just kidding, of course. Some people liked it; I did not. But hey,
whatever floats your boat. (^_^)
Richard Clayton
> But, that is a bit off-topic
No such thing in a.g.ww. (^_^) Remember, for a long time we were
considering renaming the group to
alt.games.whitewolf.stephenls.and.richard.talk.about.things.completely.unrelated.to.alt.games.whitewolf...
Scott McCollum
"E. Deirdre Brooks" <kalima...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DF78E27...@attbi.com...
> Scott McCollum wrote:
> >
> > I believe they were, awhile ago, planning to bring the Horrors from
> > Earthdawn into the Shadowrun setting. But, that is a bit off-topic, so
I'll
> > finish here.
>
> They did bring Horrors in, and one (Ysrthgrathe) was already in two
> novels or so. They were then banished from the game line through
> Dunkelzahn's heroic sacrifice.
I can't remember what was truly going on, but I thought the idea of truly
bringing them back would've made things very interesting. The immortal
elves probably starting crapping in their undies.
And, I didn't know Dunk sacrificed himself to stop the horrors. I thought
somehow the.... whatever it was, horror or other thing.... that hunted the
dragons(from Earthdawn) had shown up and did something.
Ah well.
Scott McCollum
"Richard Clayton" <richzigard...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:icQJ9.692$m8....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> Frederic SO wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:46:36 GMT, Richard Clayton
> > <richzigard...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> ... there are a lot of people who fear that osmosis between the WoD and
> >>the AoS will make both games suck. Apparently they haven't yet figured
> >>out that this isn't EarthShadowDawnRun, and White Wolf isn't FASA.
> >
> > Looks like that i am in the minority, i liked the crossover idea
> > behind Shadorun and Earthdawn.
>
> Then you are different and strange. Cease this unrepentant
> individuality at ONCE!
Ok. Wait.... If I can't be individual... who do I become? Ross Perot?
Tom Arnold? Steve Jackson?
My head hurts now.
>
> Just kidding, of course. Some people liked it; I did not. But hey,
> whatever floats your boat. (^_^)
The laws of physics.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> I did find the constant crossover irritating and gratuitous; it came to
> a point when every major metaplot referenced the Fourth Age. (So I just
> ignored them.)
Yeah, like how when the Yakuza and the Mafia had open war in Seattle,
that tied back into Theran slave-trading. And then there was that time
the Renraku arcology locked itself up under control of a rogue AI and
how that tied back to some kaer or other...
> Although this had nothing to do with the reason I stopped
> buying /Shadowrun/ books. I generally reach a point when I feel like
> I've got enough sourcebooks to form a comprehensive toolset for
> game-writing; anything else I need I can easily make up as I go. White
> Wolf is the exception to this; I suspect I would keep buying your books
> even if I knew with certainty that I'd never play an RPG again in my life.
So which of the WoD games do you prefer?
> > Well, this is true. Hurling bolts of flame is hard to beat.
>
> Yes. Especially when combined with shouts like "House Cathak Ultimate
> Technique: Ten Thousand Fireball Swarm!"
Oh, yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
> >>>>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
> >>
> >> Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
> >>Maidens, after all.
> >
> >
> > Well, I imagine they will be powerful, since they're all Celestial
> > Exalted and stuff.
>
> Well, yes. I think that's one of the key elements of the game. (^_^)
I thought one of the key elements of the game was that your character's
relationship to the laws of physics changed when she exalted.
> > It is indeed, hence my statement that it will happen.
>
> ... and indeed, HAS. Both hardbacks since the corebook have triggered
> their share of "The new Exalteds are to POWWERFULL!!" whines.
That's why I say it'll happen.
They'll say it about Abyssal too.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > They did bring Horrors in, and one (Ysrthgrathe) was already in two
> > novels or so. They were then banished from the game line through
> > Dunkelzahn's heroic sacrifice.
>
> I can't remember what was truly going on, but I thought the idea of truly
> bringing them back would've made things very interesting. The immortal
> elves probably starting crapping in their undies.
Actually, the wraiths (from Paranormal Animals of Somewhere, Probably
Europe) had horrors in it.
I don't think more than a few here or there would've been interesting.
It would've been like Night's Dawn, which is a great space opera until
it changes genre.
> And, I didn't know Dunk sacrificed himself to stop the horrors. I thought
> somehow the.... whatever it was, horror or other thing.... that hunted the
> dragons(from Earthdawn) had shown up and did something.
You mean Verjigorm, and no. Dunk whacked himself (according to my
understanding) to create the Dragon Heart which was used to seal the
breach the Ghost Dance caused.
Scott McCollum
> Scott McCollum wrote:
> >
> > > They did bring Horrors in, and one (Ysrthgrathe) was already in two
> > > novels or so. They were then banished from the game line through
> > > Dunkelzahn's heroic sacrifice.
> >
> > I can't remember what was truly going on, but I thought the idea of
truly
> > bringing them back would've made things very interesting. The immortal
> > elves probably starting crapping in their undies.
>
> Actually, the wraiths (from Paranormal Animals of Somewhere, Probably
> Europe) had horrors in it.
>
> I don't think more than a few here or there would've been interesting.
> It would've been like Night's Dawn, which is a great space opera until
> it changes genre.
I was figuring a slow influx of them would be nice. Leading up to more
powerful ones, until finally a really good novel would be made where someone
stops some powerful horror and seals them away once more.
> > And, I didn't know Dunk sacrificed himself to stop the horrors. I
thought
> > somehow the.... whatever it was, horror or other thing.... that hunted
the
> > dragons(from Earthdawn) had shown up and did something.
>
> You mean Verjigorm, and no. Dunk whacked himself (according to my
> understanding) to create the Dragon Heart which was used to seal the
> breach the Ghost Dance caused.
Awwww... The presidents always mess something up. :)
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>> I did find the constant crossover irritating and gratuitous; it came to
>>a point when every major metaplot referenced the Fourth Age. (So I just
>>ignored them.)
>
>
> Yeah, like how when the Yakuza and the Mafia had open war in Seattle,
> that tied back into Theran slave-trading. And then there was that time
> the Renraku arcology locked itself up under control of a rogue AI and
> how that tied back to some kaer or other...
That wasn't as bad as the one about going back to the Fourth Age in the
Thorn Elf time machine powered by angst and fashion sense.
>>Although this had nothing to do with the reason I stopped
>>buying /Shadowrun/ books. I generally reach a point when I feel like
>>I've got enough sourcebooks to form a comprehensive toolset for
>>game-writing; anything else I need I can easily make up as I go. White
>>Wolf is the exception to this; I suspect I would keep buying your books
>>even if I knew with certainty that I'd never play an RPG again in my life.
>
>
> So which of the WoD games do you prefer?
Hmmmm... tough question. If you include ALL White Wolf games, I'd have
to say /Exalted/ is my favorite. I've always been a sucker for epic
heroes, and /Exalted/ does epic heroes better than any other game I've
ever played. /Adventure!/ is up there too-- and it wins extra points for
its early-twentieth-century setting. Double-breasted suits, biplanes,
and tommy guns. Drool.
Of the WoD games, my favorites are probably /Mummy/, /Wraith/, and
/Mage/, in no particular order. I also like /Werewolf/ and /Vampire/,
although to a slightly lesser degree.
I suspect I would like Aberrant and Trinity, although I've never had
the chance to play either. To be honest, there are no WWGS games I DON'T
like... and I fancy myself a discerning player of RPGs.[1]
>>>Well, this is true. Hurling bolts of flame is hard to beat.
>>
>> Yes. Especially when combined with shouts like "House Cathak Ultimate
>>Technique: Ten Thousand Fireball Swarm!"
>
>
> Oh, yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
>
>
>>>>>>Waiting for the Sidereals book!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
>>>>
>>>> Powerful? They damned well better be; they are the Chosen of the
>>>>Maidens, after all.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I imagine they will be powerful, since they're all Celestial
>>>Exalted and stuff.
>>
>> Well, yes. I think that's one of the key elements of the game. (^_^)
>
>
> I thought one of the key elements of the game was that your character's
> relationship to the laws of physics changed when she exalted.
This is not strictly true; as has been pointed out, physics in the Age
of Sorrows don't work the way they do in the modern world. In the modern
world, physics functions through a series of complex interactions
governed by four fundamental forces.
In the world of /Exalted,/ there are only two fundamental forces:
Coolness and Ass-Kicking. A character with sufficient Coolness and
Ass-Kicking energy is capable of doing literally anything. In addition,
the little gods that govern movement, inertia, angular momentum, and
similar phenomenae know their place, and are not about to contradict one
of the Chosen of the great gods.
>>>It is indeed, hence my statement that it will happen.
>>
>> ... and indeed, HAS. Both hardbacks since the corebook have triggered
>>their share of "The new Exalteds are to POWWERFULL!!" whines.
>
>
> That's why I say it'll happen.
>
> They'll say it about Abyssal too.
And about Alchemical, and about Infernal. And people will whine that
/Exalted/ needs a revision, but as soon as you print a second edition
rulebook the VERY SAME PEOPLE will kick and scream "A NEW EDITION after
only 5 years? White Wolf is obviously just scamming us for our money!!"
Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
--
The e-mail address above is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.
Richard Clayton
Licensed Warstrider Technician
[1] Translation: "I consider my jaded crankiness to be a virtue."
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > Yeah, like how when the Yakuza and the Mafia had open war in Seattle,
> > that tied back into Theran slave-trading. And then there was that time
> > the Renraku arcology locked itself up under control of a rogue AI and
> > how that tied back to some kaer or other...
>
> That wasn't as bad as the one about going back to the Fourth Age in the
> Thorn Elf time machine powered by angst and fashion sense.
True, it's hard to top that for pure tragedy. I mean that in the sense
of "it's tragic that I spent all this money."
> > So which of the WoD games do you prefer?
>
> Hmmmm... tough question. If you include ALL White Wolf games, I'd have
> to say /Exalted/ is my favorite. I've always been a sucker for epic
> heroes, and /Exalted/ does epic heroes better than any other game I've
> ever played. /Adventure!/ is up there too-- and it wins extra points for
> its early-twentieth-century setting. Double-breasted suits, biplanes,
> and tommy guns. Drool.
Well, I didn't include them all. :)
> Of the WoD games, my favorites are probably /Mummy/, /Wraith/, and
> /Mage/, in no particular order. I also like /Werewolf/ and /Vampire/,
> although to a slightly lesser degree.
Interesting choices - the three most hopeful games.
> > I thought one of the key elements of the game was that your character's
> > relationship to the laws of physics changed when she exalted.
>
> This is not strictly true; as has been pointed out, physics in the Age
> of Sorrows don't work the way they do in the modern world. In the modern
> world, physics functions through a series of complex interactions
> governed by four fundamental forces.
>
> In the world of /Exalted,/ there are only two fundamental forces:
> Coolness and Ass-Kicking. A character with sufficient Coolness and
> Ass-Kicking energy is capable of doing literally anything. In addition,
> the little gods that govern movement, inertia, angular momentum, and
> similar phenomenae know their place, and are not about to contradict one
> of the Chosen of the great gods.
Of course, see, there was no short-hand way of saying this other than
"laws of physics."
> > That's why I say it'll happen.
> >
> > They'll say it about Abyssal too.
>
> And about Alchemical, and about Infernal. And people will whine that
> /Exalted/ needs a revision, but as soon as you print a second edition
> rulebook the VERY SAME PEOPLE will kick and scream "A NEW EDITION after
> only 5 years? White Wolf is obviously just scamming us for our money!!"
True enough.
> Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
> writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
> HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
It's how I have the energy to get up in the morning.
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, like how when the Yakuza and the Mafia had open war in Seattle,
>>>that tied back into Theran slave-trading. And then there was that time
>>>the Renraku arcology locked itself up under control of a rogue AI and
>>>how that tied back to some kaer or other...
>>
>> That wasn't as bad as the one about going back to the Fourth Age in the
>>Thorn Elf time machine powered by angst and fashion sense.
>
>
> True, it's hard to top that for pure tragedy. I mean that in the sense
> of "it's tragic that I spent all this money."
Tragic? Of course not. Money spent on RPGs, like that spent on whores
and firearms, is NEVER wasted.
>>>So which of the WoD games do you prefer?
>>
>> Hmmmm... tough question. If you include ALL White Wolf games, I'd have
>>to say /Exalted/ is my favorite. I've always been a sucker for epic
>>heroes, and /Exalted/ does epic heroes better than any other game I've
>>ever played. /Adventure!/ is up there too-- and it wins extra points for
>>its early-twentieth-century setting. Double-breasted suits, biplanes,
>>and tommy guns. Drool.
>
>
> Well, I didn't include them all. :)
... but I did. You're welcome. (^_~)
>> Of the WoD games, my favorites are probably /Mummy/, /Wraith/, and
>>/Mage/, in no particular order. I also like /Werewolf/ and /Vampire/,
>>although to a slightly lesser degree.
>
>
> Interesting choices - the three most hopeful games.
Yes. Deep down, I'm something of a Pollyanna. I want everybody to be
happy and everything to be okay. I often run games with dark themes and
cruel choices, but I rarely run games entirely devoid of hope.
On the other hand, the occassional sadistic stompfest can be fun and
cathartic. (^_^)
>>>I thought one of the key elements of the game was that your character's
>>>relationship to the laws of physics changed when she exalted.
>>
>> This is not strictly true; as has been pointed out, physics in the Age
>>of Sorrows don't work the way they do in the modern world. In the modern
>>world, physics functions through a series of complex interactions
>>governed by four fundamental forces.
>>
>> In the world of /Exalted,/ there are only two fundamental forces:
>>Coolness and Ass-Kicking. A character with sufficient Coolness and
>>Ass-Kicking energy is capable of doing literally anything. In addition,
>>the little gods that govern movement, inertia, angular momentum, and
>>similar phenomenae know their place, and are not about to contradict one
>>of the Chosen of the great gods.
>
>
> Of course, see, there was no short-hand way of saying this other than
> "laws of physics."
>
>
>>>That's why I say it'll happen.
>>>
>>>They'll say it about Abyssal too.
>>
>> And about Alchemical, and about Infernal. And people will whine that
>>/Exalted/ needs a revision, but as soon as you print a second edition
>>rulebook the VERY SAME PEOPLE will kick and scream "A NEW EDITION after
>>only 5 years? White Wolf is obviously just scamming us for our money!!"
>
> True enough.
Of course, this betrays the average FanWanker's complete LACK of
understanding. White Wolf's Evil Business Plan is not to leech money
from our pockets by making deliberately broken games, but rather to make
SUPERIOR games. We, the poor victims of your marketing savvy, are still
coerced into buying lots of books, but at least we get a really great
product in exchange.
>> Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
>>writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
>>HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
>
>
> It's how I have the energy to get up in the morning.
Then you're a better H. sapiens than I; I suspect that one morning I'd
simply slip a cog and start mailing Alpha-Fomorol to every semiliterate
faux-goth simpleton who wanted to tell me how to do my job.
Gieljan de Vries
>
> E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
> > Richard Clayton wrote:
> > True, it's hard to top that for pure tragedy. I mean that in the sense
> > of "it's tragic that I spent all this money."
>
> Tragic? Of course not. Money spent on RPGs, like that spent on whores
> and firearms, is NEVER wasted.
> >> In the world of /Exalted,/ there are only two fundamental forces:
> >>Coolness and Ass-Kicking. A character with sufficient Coolness and
> >>Ass-Kicking energy is capable of doing literally anything. In addition,
> >>the little gods that govern movement, inertia, angular momentum, and
> >>similar phenomenae know their place, and are not about to contradict one
> >>of the Chosen of the great gods.
> >
> >
> > Of course, see, there was no short-hand way of saying this other than
> > "laws of physics."
> >> Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
> >>writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
> >>HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
> >
> >
> > It's how I have the energy to get up in the morning.
>
> Then you're a better H. sapiens than I; I suspect that one morning I'd
> simply slip a cog and start mailing Alpha-Fomorol to every semiliterate
> faux-goth simpleton who wanted to tell me how to do my job.
> --
> The e-mail address above is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.
>
> Richard Clayton
> Licensed Warstrider Technician
In one post, you manage to make good the loss of my collection of
archived assorted wisdom. Welcome to my 'saved' folder.
...
If it wasn't this late right now, and if my neighbours weren't
complaining about the 'loud music' we play during games here (loud
enough to be heard over if you talk in a normal tone of voice...), my
response would be LOL. Now, it's Sitting Behind His Computer Trying To
Stifle A Laugh That Would Wake His Neighbours' Neighbours. Somehow, I
don't think it'll see much usage, hence the non-acronymity*) of the
phrase.
--
Gieljan
<remove BZZ to reply>
*) Too much Buffy.**)
**) (smacks face) Infidel!
Today I wear these chains, and am /here/.
Tomorrow, I shall be fetterless! - /But where?/
Edgar Allan Poe - The Imp of the Perverse
Richard Clayton
Heh heh heh. Thank you kindly.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > True, it's hard to top that for pure tragedy. I mean that in the sense
> > of "it's tragic that I spent all this money."
>
> Tragic? Of course not. Money spent on RPGs, like that spent on whores
> and firearms, is NEVER wasted.
If this were in a webcomic, I'd use it as a sig. Sadly, my rule is "only
webcomic quotes." :)
> > Well, I didn't include them all. :)
>
> ... but I did. You're welcome. (^_~)
You thread-hijacking bastard.
> > Interesting choices - the three most hopeful games.
>
> Yes. Deep down, I'm something of a Pollyanna. I want everybody to be
> happy and everything to be okay. I often run games with dark themes and
> cruel choices, but I rarely run games entirely devoid of hope.
I don't blame you.
I like all three of those games - to a point. I hate the Rogue Council
idea in Mage, and I like less emphasis on the silly Ascension Action
Movie War, but hey.
> On the other hand, the occassional sadistic stompfest can be fun and
> cathartic. (^_^)
True enough, but I get enough of that in Exalted.
I'm busy right now (hypothetically) writing antagonists for tonight's
battle against the undead.
> > True enough.
>
> Of course, this betrays the average FanWanker's complete LACK of
> understanding. White Wolf's Evil Business Plan is not to leech money
> from our pockets by making deliberately broken games, but rather to make
> SUPERIOR games. We, the poor victims of your marketing savvy, are still
> coerced into buying lots of books, but at least we get a really great
> product in exchange.
Funny you should mention this. There's a thread on the Aberrant list
right now...
> >> Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
> >>writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
> >>HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
> >
> >
> > It's how I have the energy to get up in the morning.
>
> Then you're a better H. sapiens than I; I suspect that one morning I'd
> simply slip a cog and start mailing Alpha-Fomorol to every semiliterate
> faux-goth simpleton who wanted to tell me how to do my job.
No, no, the savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker is how I have the
energy to get up in the morning.
--
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>>>True, it's hard to top that for pure tragedy. I mean that in the sense
>>>of "it's tragic that I spent all this money."
>>
>> Tragic? Of course not. Money spent on RPGs, like that spent on whores
>>and firearms, is NEVER wasted.
>
>
> If this were in a webcomic, I'd use it as a sig. Sadly, my rule is "only
> webcomic quotes." :)
... strangely enough, that's one of the nicest compliments I've ever
received. (^_~)
>>>Well, I didn't include them all. :)
>>
>> ... but I did. You're welcome. (^_~)
>
> You thread-hijacking bastard.
Think of it as evolution in action.
>>>Interesting choices - the three most hopeful games.
>>
>> Yes. Deep down, I'm something of a Pollyanna. I want everybody to be
>>happy and everything to be okay. I often run games with dark themes and
>>cruel choices, but I rarely run games entirely devoid of hope.
>
>
> I don't blame you.
>
> I like all three of those games - to a point. I hate the Rogue Council
> idea in Mage, and I like less emphasis on the silly Ascension Action
> Movie War, but hey.
I dislike the Rogue Council idea for my PERSONAL games, only because I
think you can do a lot MORE with /Mage/ than the Ascension Action Movie
War.[1] I doubt I would ever use the Rogue Council; if I did, it would
probably turn out to be a handful of bitter and extremely overzealous
young punks who bought too deeply into their elders' tales of Ye Olde
Glory Dayys of smiting HIT Marks and trying to Awaken the Masses. Kinda
like modern "Neo-Anarchist" punks who talk about how great anarchy would
be without seriously considering the consequences.[2]
On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
power to you.[3]
>> On the other hand, the occassional sadistic stompfest can be fun and
>>cathartic. (^_^)
>
>
> True enough, but I get enough of that in Exalted.
I'm gearing up for a new /Exalted/ game starting just after finals. I
tingle with anticipation.
> I'm busy right now (hypothetically) writing antagonists for tonight's
> battle against the undead.
How about the Bodhisattva Anointed by Dark Waters? Can't get enough of him.
>>>True enough.
>>
>> Of course, this betrays the average FanWanker's complete LACK of
>>understanding. White Wolf's Evil Business Plan is not to leech money
>>from our pockets by making deliberately broken games, but rather to make
>>SUPERIOR games. We, the poor victims of your marketing savvy, are still
>>coerced into buying lots of books, but at least we get a really great
>>product in exchange.
>
>
> Funny you should mention this. There's a thread on the Aberrant list
> right now...
I really need to catch up on my WW mailing lists. For that matter, I
should probably sub to the AEoniverse lists. Not knowing a singled
damned thing about the material will be only a minor setback.
>>>> Do you ever feel a savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker who
>>>>writes a self-righteous three-thousand-word e-mail who tells you EXACTLY
>>>>HOW [insert game here] SHOULD BE?
>>>
>>>
>>>It's how I have the energy to get up in the morning.
>>
>> Then you're a better H. sapiens than I; I suspect that one morning I'd
>>simply slip a cog and start mailing Alpha-Fomorol to every semiliterate
>>faux-goth simpleton who wanted to tell me how to do my job.
>
>
> No, no, the savage desire to curbstomp the next wanker is how I have the
> energy to get up in the morning.
Ahhh. Explains quite a bit, that does.
--
The e-mail address above is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.
Richard Clayton
Licensed Warstrider Technician
[1] Consider it stolen.
[2] http://makeashorterlink.com/?P352211C2
[3] Clayton's Law of RPGs: "If you're doing it fun, you're doing it
right."[4]
[4] Actually I just came up with that, but I like the sound of it.
Agent Groove
> I dislike the Rogue Council idea for my PERSONAL games, only because I
> think you can do a lot MORE with /Mage/ than the Ascension Action Movie
> War.[1] I doubt I would ever use the Rogue Council; if I did, it would
> probably turn out to be a handful of bitter and extremely overzealous
> young punks who bought too deeply into their elders' tales of Ye Olde
> Glory Dayys of smiting HIT Marks and trying to Awaken the Masses. Kinda
> like modern "Neo-Anarchist" punks who talk about how great anarchy would
> be without seriously considering the consequences.[2]
So, those of us who liked 2nd Ed, suck?
As opposed to the pro-vampire whiny 'why bother' crap of Revised?
I really, REALLY look forward to Rogue Council.
> On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
> Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
> official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
> games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
> you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
> do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
> power to you.[3]
I'll game however I want at my gaming table, thank you. And while the Craft
was a kind of a stinker, the Matrix is damn good movie company.
As opposed to playing magical (notice, no K) LOOZERZ who's powers really
don't work, get zapped whenever they spirit travel and have their plotlines
railroaded by the marketing needs of another game line. But certain Larpers,
they can't stand to have their Kindred characters be less powerful than
those mere HUMANS!
What's the point of wanting to change the world if the backstory doesn't
allow you to? I want to tear that line about humanity giving up
responsibility for themselves out of my Mage Revised book. Sometimes I
question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I support even a
flawed version of Mage.
Heh. WWGS was smart. They're listening to their Mage fans.
> [3] Clayton's Law of RPGs: "If you're doing it fun, you're doing it
> right."[4]
Very well put. And, for me, playing a Vampire Toady game is NOT fun.
Fan Wanker, indeed.
--
"No Magick without humility or respect!"
-- Emily Hartman, Archmage of Jerbiton,
During mandatory curriculum for Disciples
at the World Tree Chantry, Boston, Mass.
--
Chris Bell
cor...@optonline.net
arg...@agoron.com
Stephenls
<snip>
> As opposed to the pro-vampire whiny 'why bother' crap of Revised?
<snip>
> As opposed to playing magical (notice, no K) LOOZERZ who's powers
> really don't work, get zapped whenever they spirit travel and have
> their plotlines railroaded by the marketing needs of another game
> line. But certain Larpers, they can't stand to have their Kindred
> characters be less powerful than those mere HUMANS!
> What's the point of wanting to change the world if the backstory
> doesn't allow you to? I want to tear that line about humanity giving
> up responsibility for themselves out of my Mage Revised book.
> Sometimes I question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I
> support even a flawed version of Mage.
<snip>
> Very well put. And, for me, playing a Vampire Toady game is NOT fun.
Can we just drop the ranting? It's not going to change the timeline and
fix the game they ruined for you, but it just might start another long
flame war and decimate the group like it did last time.
--
Stephenls
Geek
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
> Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
> official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
> games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
> you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
> do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
> power to you.[3]
Well, yeah, for those who need that permission and all.
> > True enough, but I get enough of that in Exalted.
>
> I'm gearing up for a new /Exalted/ game starting just after finals. I
> tingle with anticipation.
What kind?
> > I'm busy right now (hypothetically) writing antagonists for tonight's
> > battle against the undead.
>
> How about the Bodhisattva Anointed by Dark Waters? Can't get enough
> of him.
The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*, in
Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
Juggernaut taken away.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> So, those of us who liked 2nd Ed, suck?
No.
> As opposed to the pro-vampire whiny 'why bother' crap of Revised?
On the other hand, people who insist that MageRev is "pro-vampire," and
"whiny," probably *do* suck, if only due to the fact that they
persistently lie to further their own agenda.
> I really, REALLY look forward to Rogue Council.
Bully for you. It's pants.
> I'll game however I want at my gaming table, thank you. And while the Craft
> was a kind of a stinker, the Matrix is damn good movie company.
>
> As opposed to playing magical (notice, no K) LOOZERZ who's powers really
> don't work, get zapped whenever they spirit travel and have their plotlines
> railroaded by the marketing needs of another game line. But certain Larpers,
> they can't stand to have their Kindred characters be less powerful than
> those mere HUMANS!
Well, except that their powers work (at least they did in playtest...had
a guy run across the top of a sandstorm in a horizon realm), the zappage
is pretty low-key (but highly overrated when it comes to "critics" who
thrive on lying about how MageRev killed all of their puppies), and the
game line's change in direction was NOT to cater to Vampire LARPers or
fans, or to make mages weaker than vampires.
But then, you seem to have this weird idea that there's a clear and
obvious demarcation between Vampire fans and Mage fans, rather than a
continuum who vary from liking any one game in the WoD to liking all of
them, with entire worlds of blurry between them.
> What's the point of wanting to change the world if the backstory doesn't
> allow you to? I want to tear that line about humanity giving up
> responsibility for themselves out of my Mage Revised book. Sometimes I
> question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I support even a
> flawed version of Mage.
The backstory came from Phil, you idiot. The information in MageRev
*encourages* you to make a change. The problem isn't that the game
doesn't allow you to make changes. Frankly, it does. MageRev wants you
to take it to the streets and change the world. Unfortunately[1], the
focus shifted to Earth, not the moon's of Jupiter, causing the mass
puppy death I mentioned earlier. Somehow, this shift in focus translates
to "no change allowed." Given that the PCs have the freedom to do
*whatever they want* without even orders from the
destroyed-by-Phil-Brucato-Tradition-Council to give them pause, I don't
see how you can say any of this with a straight face. Still. After years
of this.
> Heh. WWGS was smart. They're listening to their Mage fans.
As opposed to their raving psychotic stalker loonies who pretend to be
fans, yeah.
> Very well put. And, for me, playing a Vampire Toady game is NOT fun.
Then sell your copy of Fatal Addiction and play Mage.
> Fan Wanker, indeed.
Chris, you must realize by *now* that you come off sounding like an
absolute kook when you put forth your still-preposterous idea that Mage
was changed to make it more like Vampire. No matter how many people who
were actually *involved* in the making of said revision, no matter how
many people who have actually *played* the game, no matter who says
differently, you're clearly battened onto the concept like a bloated
leech. But this is kook-worthy behavior. I'm sorry MageRev beat your
puppies to death, but sometimes games do that, and maybe the puppies
just needed to die.
Anyway, so long as you insist in your inane conspiracy theories about
why and how MageRev changed in the face of actual evidence to the
contrary, I will continue to mock you for acting like a loon.
[1] Unfortunately, that is, for people who want that style of play, but
are easily bullied by a rulebook.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> Can we just drop the ranting? It's not going to change the timeline and
> fix the game they ruined for you, but it just might start another long
> flame war and decimate the group like it did last time.
Ranting is too kind a word. These days, most people can just say "you
know, I preferred second edition" and at least look sane. I mean, how do
you respond to that? "Sure, I can see why you'd prefer it." No big deal.
On the other hand, "YOU DELIBERATELY CHANGED THIS GAME TO MAKE IT
SUBORDINATE TO THIS OTHER GAME WHEN I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT THE ENTIRE WOD
WAS SUBORDINATE TO THE MAGE LINE" really makes one look like a kook,
especially since it's *wrong* on both counts.
Jim Burdo
Back to that myth again? Will this .netcopping apply to those who
attack the "new direction"? (Apparently it doesn't to 2nd ed bashing.)
Joe
news:MqlK9.16040$a8.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
> So, those of us who liked 2nd Ed, suck?
Yes.
> As opposed to playing magical (notice, no K) LOOZERZ who's powers
> really don't work, get zapped whenever they spirit travel and have
> their plotlines railroaded by the marketing needs of another game
> line. But certain Larpers, they can't stand to have their Kindred
> characters be less powerful than those mere HUMANS!
Yes, it's all a conspiracy by the LARPers and WWGS. They're inventing
games simply to be prey for the Vampire game line. Vampire then makes
them just like Vampire. Hey! It's like the gameline is a vampire!
Isn't that wierd?
> What's the point of wanting to change the world if the backstory
> doesn't allow you to? I want to tear that line about humanity giving
> up responsibility for themselves out of my Mage Revised book.
Then do so. Don't run on the WWGS-provided training wheels if something
diverges from your scheme. Adapt. My game worlds for Werewolf, Vampire,
and especially Mage diverge with the published worlds, and I imagine my
Demon game will also. I just adapt new stuff or pass on books I don't
have a use for. The game isn't on rails.
> Sometimes I question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I
> support even a flawed version of Mage.
Stop buying the game if you don't like where it's going. That way, it
will stay exactly like you want it. But don't expect WWGS to develop on
your favorite path or to remain stagnant. It's in their best interest to
shake things up.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> Back to that myth again? Will this .netcopping apply to those who
> attack the "new direction"? (Apparently it doesn't to 2nd ed bashing.)
Depends, I suppose. If people criticize the new direction on the basis
of its merits, then probably not. If people criticize the new direction
based on some nebulous conspiracy, then probably.
So, if *you* were to attack the new direction, then likely, yes, someone
would tell you that you're being a jerk, but that's because you're
*always* being a jerk.
Richard Clayton
>>I dislike the Rogue Council idea for my PERSONAL games, only because I
>>think you can do a lot MORE with /Mage/ than the Ascension Action Movie
>>War.[1] I doubt I would ever use the Rogue Council; if I did, it would
>>probably turn out to be a handful of bitter and extremely overzealous
>>young punks who bought too deeply into their elders' tales of Ye Olde
>>Glory Dayys of smiting HIT Marks and trying to Awaken the Masses. Kinda
>>like modern "Neo-Anarchist" punks who talk about how great anarchy would
>>be without seriously considering the consequences.[2]
>
>
> So, those of us who liked 2nd Ed, suck?
Excuse me, I wrote nothing of the sort. All I did was write that I
wasn't likely to use the Rogue Council in my own games, and then
speculate on how I /might/ do so if I did.
I rather like irony, you see. I would find it quite delicious if the
PCs finally tracked down the Rogue Council, expecting a bunch of
chock-fulla-wisdom archmasters with a Grand Plan for conquering the
Technocrats once and for all... and finding instead a handful of
recently-Awakened snot-nosed little shits, with nothing more a badly
distorted view of history and a lot of obstreperous arrogance.
> As opposed to the pro-vampire whiny 'why bother' crap of Revised?
Oooh, another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. Please
continue; I find you guys almost as hilarious as people who wear
aluminum foil hats to repel the CIA mind control satellite beams.
> I really, REALLY look forward to Rogue Council.
Good. Have a ball with it. The idea is SUPPOSED to please the /Mage/ fans.
>>On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
>>Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
>>official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
>>games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
>>you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
>>do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
>>power to you.[3]
>
>
> I'll game however I want at my gaming table, thank you.
Did you even READ my post? That was exactly my point.
> And while the Craft
> was a kind of a stinker, the Matrix is damn good movie company.
I wasn't putting down either movie; I was simply trying to counterpoint
a technological theme and a mystic one. (Extra points if you can figure
out which movie is which theme!)
> As opposed to playing magical (notice, no K) LOOZERZ who's powers really
> don't work, get zapped whenever they spirit travel and have their plotlines
> railroaded by the marketing needs of another game line. But certain Larpers,
> they can't stand to have their Kindred characters be less powerful than
> those mere HUMANS!
Any moment now, I suspect you will explain how /Hunter/ killed off
/Wraith/.
> What's the point of wanting to change the world if the backstory doesn't
> allow you to?
Excuse me, but it does. I've played and enjoyed /Mage/ games, and never
felt "railroaded."
> I want to tear that line about humanity giving up
> responsibility for themselves out of my Mage Revised book.
It's the world of DARKNESS, remember? Even in OUR world, humans are
largely apathetic and stupid; all most people really want is beer in the
fridge and two hours of amusing prime-time television every night.
> Sometimes I
> question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I support even a
> flawed version of Mage.
Did somebody twist your arm to buy it? If you hated it, why didn't you
stick with /Mage/ second edition?
> Heh. WWGS was smart. They're listening to their Mage fans.
They certainly are. Making a better game was the goal all along; that
/Mage Revised/ wasn't the game YOU wanted it to be does not invoke some
arcane conspiracy of fans of other game lines.
>>[3] Clayton's Law of RPGs: "If you're doing it fun, you're doing it
>>right."[4]
>
>
> Very well put. And, for me, playing a Vampire Toady game is NOT fun.
Once again, the argument from a false premise. /Mage/ is not a vampire
toady game and never has been.
Richard Clayton
> Then sell your copy of Fatal Addiction and play Mage.
I ALMOST made the exact same joke, but I pulled it; I felt that my post
was already quite abrasive enough, and I did not wish to alienate
anybody from my favorite forum. Now I wish I had.
Shane Graves
> Agent Groove wrote:
> > Waiting for the Sidereals book!
> And when it comes, everyone will say how powerful they are.
I hope Sidereals impresses me. Because I WANT to be overly impressed by
them. ^_^
Arbane the Terrible
>
> The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*, in
> Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
> need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
Yipes....
How do you handle the Deathlords in your game? Considering how godawfully
powerful they are, I figure their intense risk-aversion (preferring to work
through lackeys) and tendency to torture their own minions (because they're
Eeeevil) are their only notable weaknesses...so what happens when they _do_
take a direct hand in things?
> Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> Juggernaut taken away.
Good riddance. How'd that happen?
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
>>Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
>>official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
>>games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
>>you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
>>do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
>>power to you.[3]
>
>
> Well, yeah, for those who need that permission and all.
Oddly enough, some people feel that way. ::shrug::
>>>True enough, but I get enough of that in Exalted.
>>
>> I'm gearing up for a new /Exalted/ game starting just after finals. I
>>tingle with anticipation.
>
>
> What kind?
The PCs are a young and innocent forest child Eclipse (think two parts
Gump from /Legend/ and three parts Robin Goodfellow) and a cunning,
manipulative, sexual predator of a Night caste who was previously a
concubine to a regional caliph. (The Night will probably wind up
deflowing the still-underaged Eclipse at some point in the story.)
As to the plot... heh heh. One of the players reads this NG regularly,
so I shouldn't go into too much detail... but I think they'll dig it.
Heh heh heh.
>>>I'm busy right now (hypothetically) writing antagonists for tonight's
>>>battle against the undead.
>>
>> How about the Bodhisattva Anointed by Dark Waters? Can't get enough
>>of him.
>
>
> The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*
Well, that wasn't very good thinking, was it? Next time run the game in
the *West* and you won't have that problem.
> in
> Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
> need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
>
> Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> Juggernaut taken away.
Heh heh. I really like /Exalted's/ flair.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
>
> >
> > The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*, in
> > Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
> > need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
>
> Yipes....
>
> How do you handle the Deathlords in your game? Considering how godawfully
> powerful they are, I figure their intense risk-aversion (preferring to work
> through lackeys) and tendency to torture their own minions (because they're
> Eeeevil) are their only notable weaknesses...so what happens when they _do_
> take a direct hand in things?
Well,
1) Given that the deathlords are nigh-impossible to kill, I don't think
risk-aversion makes all that much sense. I mean, look at Thorns.
2) I don't know that they torture their minions.
3) The power is the power.
In this case, the Lookshy Armory gets stolen, when Lookshy tried to use
FA weapons on the deathlord they exploded, that sort of thing. In any
event, there's a way to deal with the deathlord that's the major problem
without the need to fight him directly, so.
> > Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> > Juggernaut taken away.
>
> Good riddance. How'd that happen?
Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
Patrick Baldwin
: /Earthdawn/ did not suck, although it did not particularly tickle my
: fancy. /Shadowrun/ is actually one of my top three favorite games.
: (Although, to be fair, I count "All White Wolf Games" as one game,
: otherwise WWGS would eat up more than half of my top ten all by itself.)
:
: I did find the constant crossover irritating and gratuitous; it came to
: ignored them.)
I wish I could have. Our GM used Horrors in our Shadowrun
game. It wasn't pretty.
: >>wouldn't worry about that; whining about how the newest book has
: >>b0rk3n3D the setting (#include arbitrary.string.of.bangs) is standard
: >>fanwank behavior.
: >
: > It is indeed, hence my statement that it will happen.
:
: ... and indeed, HAS. Both hardbacks since the corebook have triggered
: their share of "The new Exalteds are to POWWERFULL!!" whines.
Not me. I wish the Lunars were *more* powerful, but that's
because I just love their wacky shape-shifting goodness,
and would really like to play one in an Exalted game
without being overshadowed by the rest of the group
(playing Solars). I suppose I could concentrate on
shape-shifting and grappling, since the Lunars seem
to be superior at that.
~Pax
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > What kind?
>
> The PCs are a young and innocent forest child Eclipse (think two parts
> Gump from /Legend/ and three parts Robin Goodfellow) and a cunning,
> manipulative, sexual predator of a Night caste who was previously a
> concubine to a regional caliph. (The Night will probably wind up
> deflowing the still-underaged Eclipse at some point in the story.)
Sounds like a good setup.
> As to the plot... heh heh. One of the players reads this NG regularly,
> so I shouldn't go into too much detail... but I think they'll dig it.
> Heh heh heh.
I'm pretty open about much of my game's plot because the stuff that's
currently going on is out in the open to the PCs. Of course, once the
next stage post-Deathlord War is out of the way, they'll have other
issues.
I'm seriously thinking of, after they conquer the Realm or die trying,
setting up a Sidereal/Solar/Lunar "rotating cast" type game, starting
with new characters in the same continuity. Not that the old characters
are unhandle-able, or that I don't have a lot for them to do, I'd just
like to give a closer-to-the-ground eye-view of what's happening because
of their actions.
> >>>I'm busy right now (hypothetically) writing antagonists for tonight's
> >>>battle against the undead.
> >>
> >> How about the Bodhisattva Anointed by Dark Waters? Can't get enough
> >>of him.
> >
> >
> > The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*
>
> Well, that wasn't very good thinking, was it? Next time run the game in
> the *West* and you won't have that problem.
Next time Deathlords come a'knocking, it won't *matter* who's where.
> > in
> > Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
> > need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
> >
> > Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> > Juggernaut taken away.
>
> Heh heh. I really like /Exalted's/ flair.
Yeah, it lends itself to some pretty outrageous-and-yet-fun stuff.
Arbane the Terrible
> 1) Given that the deathlords are nigh-impossible to kill, I don't think
> risk-aversion makes all that much sense. I mean, look at Thorns.
I figure the only thing they're much scared of right now is each other, so
they prefer not to stick their necks out excessively. Certainly, nothing
mortal scares them much.
> 2) I don't know that they torture their minions.
Well, at least _one_ does. (Been reading thru Castebook: Night. The
Walker in Darkness has been taking management lessons from Darth Vader.)
> In this case, the Lookshy Armory gets stolen, when Lookshy tried to use
> FA weapons on the deathlord they exploded, that sort of thing. In any
> event, there's a way to deal with the deathlord that's the major problem
> without the need to fight him directly, so.
How are they going to deal with it?
> Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
> Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
> of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
> nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
It couldn't happen to a nicer ghost. :)
[Fatalist]
> Oooh, another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. Please
> continue; I find you guys almost as hilarious as people who wear
> aluminum foil hats to repel the CIA mind control satellite beams.
Not another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. One of the
most vocal of the last couple of years. Chris Bell, a.k.a. Coridan, a.k.a.
Agent Groove.
I remember him throwing down with Jess at one point on this very newsgroup.
"Below illustrates that the Ascension War is still in full force, despite
what the pro-vampire powers at WWGS would rather have you believe. Reject
the metaplot, and demand the return of the chronicles of the war!"
--Chris Bell in alt.games.whitewolf, 6/25/01
--
[Fatalist]
np: Miss Kittyn & The Hacker, _First Album_
"Avoid being killed, purely for the sake of the fact that while dispensing
death is industrial, death itself is gothic, and do you really want your
tombstone to read 'here lies Jamie, the dead gothic fuck?'"
--Voltair, rec.music.industrial
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
>
> > 1) Given that the deathlords are nigh-impossible to kill, I don't think
> > risk-aversion makes all that much sense. I mean, look at Thorns.
>
> I figure the only thing they're much scared of right now is each other, so
> they prefer not to stick their necks out excessively. Certainly, nothing
> mortal scares them much.
I figure that if Mask of Winters is willing to stomp Thorns, their
definition of excessive may not match yours. IMO, what's the point of an
evil overlord who just turtles and never presents a target?
> > 2) I don't know that they torture their minions.
>
> Well, at least _one_ does. (Been reading thru Castebook: Night. The
> Walker in Darkness has been taking management lessons from Darth Vader.)
Ah, him. He's just the nice guy.
> > In this case, the Lookshy Armory gets stolen, when Lookshy tried to use
> > FA weapons on the deathlord they exploded, that sort of thing. In any
> > event, there's a way to deal with the deathlord that's the major problem
> > without the need to fight him directly, so.
>
> How are they going to deal with it?
Well, see, I would explain, but since it hasn't happened yet, I'd rather
wait until after it's shaken out in the game to explain it.
> > Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
> > Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
> > of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
> > nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
>
> It couldn't happen to a nicer ghost. :)
Of course not. Unfortunately, he dare not send the Juggernaut too close
to Lookshy or it'll blast it into little-bitty Juggernaut-bits.
Arbane the Terrible
> I figure that if Mask of Winters is willing to stomp Thorns, their
> definition of excessive may not match yours. IMO, what's the point of an
> evil overlord who just turtles and never presents a target?
They get to send Evil Minions out to get stomped by the good guys, or
course! (My cynical theory is that sending lone operatives after PCs is
the Evil Mastermind's method of downsizing.)
Semi-seriously, something's stopping the Deathlords from just stomping all
in their paths and Rain Of Doom'ing everyone who offends them by breathing.
>> How are they going to deal with it?
>
> Well, see, I would explain, but since it hasn't happened yet, I'd rather
> wait until after it's shaken out in the game to explain it.
Ah. Fair enough.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
>
> > I figure that if Mask of Winters is willing to stomp Thorns, their
> > definition of excessive may not match yours. IMO, what's the point of an
> > evil overlord who just turtles and never presents a target?
>
> They get to send Evil Minions out to get stomped by the good guys, or
> course! (My cynical theory is that sending lone operatives after PCs is
> the Evil Mastermind's method of downsizing.)
>
> Semi-seriously, something's stopping the Deathlords from just stomping all
> in their paths and Rain Of Doom'ing everyone who offends them by breathing.
Nothing's *stopping* them, except perhaps the nuances of good planning
and excellent timing. It's not a matter of fear of risk - Deathlords are
already dead, and practically nothing can kill them - it's a matter of
effort. Why should a Deathlord go out of its way to accomplish some
minor task it can send a minion to do?
I don't think I could take Deathlords seriously as presented if their
behavior was governed by the same impulses as elder vampires. They're
just too proactive for that.
Scott McCollum
"Shane Graves" <lobst...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:w3wK9.5094$MV5.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
They can eat dung. The Abyssals is where the fun is.....
Charlie
<frankj...@BLOKpilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Richard Clayton wrote:
>> Oooh, another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. Please
>> continue; I find you guys almost as hilarious as people who wear
>> aluminum foil hats to repel the CIA mind control satellite beams.
>
>Not another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. One of the
>most vocal of the last couple of years. Chris Bell, a.k.a. Coridan, a.k.a.
>Agent Groove.
And that argument is *sooooo* 2002. Here in forward-thinking a.g.w-w,
we're already looking to 2003 - The Year Of Talking About Things
Rationally For A Change!
Cheers,
Charlie B getrid to email
'It requires no extraordinary talents to lie and deceive'
- Dr. Samuel Johnson
Hand-of-Omega
> Arbane the Terrible wrote:
> >
> > E. Deirdre Brooks wrote:
> >
> > > 1) Given that the deathlords are nigh-impossible to kill, I don't think
> > > risk-aversion makes all that much sense. I mean, look at Thorns.
> >
> > I figure the only thing they're much scared of right now is each other, so
> > they prefer not to stick their necks out excessively. Certainly, nothing
> > mortal scares them much.
>
> I figure that if Mask of Winters is willing to stomp Thorns, their
> definition of excessive may not match yours. IMO, what's the point of an
> evil overlord who just turtles and never presents a target?
>
Sounds like a cool adventure, tho; don't suppose you have time to run
the proposed AGWW online game?^__^
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > I figure that if Mask of Winters is willing to stomp Thorns, their
> > definition of excessive may not match yours. IMO, what's the point of an
> > evil overlord who just turtles and never presents a target?
> >
> Being an Antediluvian? <rimshot>
Antediluvians aren't evil overlords, they're just semi-mythical
progenitors that you drag out when you want to whack someone as an
example.
> Sounds like a cool adventure, tho; don't suppose you have time to run
> the proposed AGWW online game?^__^
No. :)
Shane Graves
> "Shane Graves"
> > I hope Sidereals impresses me. Because I WANT to be overly impressed by
> > them. ^_^
> They can eat dung. The Abyssals is where the fun is.....
Necromancy is neat, but good-Gdd-damn, gimmie manipulators of fate and
fortune and seers of the future any day.
Agent Groove
> Stephenls wrote:
> >
> > Can we just drop the ranting? It's not going to change the timeline and
> > fix the game they ruined for you, but it just might start another long
> > flame war and decimate the group like it did last time.
>
> Ranting is too kind a word. These days, most people can just say "you
> know, I preferred second edition" and at least look sane. I mean, how do
> you respond to that? "Sure, I can see why you'd prefer it." No big deal.
> On the other hand, "YOU DELIBERATELY CHANGED THIS GAME TO MAKE IT
> SUBORDINATE TO THIS OTHER GAME WHEN I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT THE ENTIRE WOD
> WAS SUBORDINATE TO THE MAGE LINE" really makes one look like a kook,
> especially since it's *wrong* on both counts.
Actually, it was, "YOU DELIBERATELY CHANGED THIS GAME TO PLEASE VAMPIRE FANS
THAT COULDN'T DEAL WITH THEIR BEING PC'S OF OTHER TYPES AS POWERFUL AS THEY
WERE, OR WHO ARE ESSENTIALLY MORE IMPORTANT IN THE COSMIC SCHEME OF THINGS."
That was my rant of two years ago, and an incorrect and stupid one at that,
before I understood the sanity saving seperation mantra - actually taught to
me by Mssr Achilli, in spirit -
Seperate the continuities.
Seperate the continuities.
Seperate the continuities.
This allows me to enjoy all of the games, in their wonder and splendor. And
this is not sarcasm!
What hacked me was that I was told, in Rich's post, that people who like
2nd's plotline were twinks, and basically sucked, and that Rogue council
will suck because it's a return to the 'bad old days.'
Yeah, the bad old days that won the GAMA awards. Heh.
Understand - we looser twinks pay writers bills. Take the 30 page rants,
laugh at them for the inanity that they are, paper your birdcage with them,
but ignore them at your peril. Every ranting fanboy or girl's money fills
the coffers of WWGS.
The common refrain I heard from Vampire fans, when Revised happened, was :
"Good. They were too twinky and powerful, bastards. I'm glad they got rid
of the Ascension War nonsense. I don't want my Toreador shot down by some
cyborg." And ya know, there was a ring of truth to that, on a couple of
levels. And my Vampire gaming pals in a very concrete way were right.
I still think that the changes made to Mage revised were to please Vampire
fans, and reassure that fan base that, indeed, the World of Darkness
belonged to them. This is a dead horse, and a debate that I consider that
the Mage side has won, as is witnessed by Rogue Council. I, however, should
not be made to feel as if I suck, because I like an intense, dramatic,
action packed version of Mage that was around when Phil ran 2nd ed. And not
to say that the metaphysical, the subtle wasn't there - look only to the
books of that era (such as the CoX and Euthanatos Trad Books for Mage 2nd)
as proof.
Again, I feel that this whole problem would be easily dealt with if WWGS
would come out and say that the game lines each have seperate continiuties
on a meta scale, and write their backstories from there. So, if people on
the streets start being able to cast spells in Mage, Werewolf and Vampire
players needn't worry about it.
--
"A leader gets power from followers.
"Violence is always an option."
"A good man does all things well"
"Mistakes are made, and fixed."
Proverbs of Orlanth, King of the Storm Gods
Chris Bell
cor...@optonline.net
arg...@agoron.com
Agent Groove
> Then do so. Don't run on the WWGS-provided training wheels if something
> diverges from your scheme. Adapt. My game worlds for Werewolf, Vampire,
> and especially Mage diverge with the published worlds, and I imagine my
> Demon game will also. I just adapt new stuff or pass on books I don't
> have a use for. The game isn't on rails.
Yes, but when I go to a LARP, or someone else's TT game, most gamers whom
I've met hold stringently to canon. This is especially the case on MUSHes.
> > Sometimes I question why I even bought the damned thing, except that I
> > support even a flawed version of Mage.
>
> Stop buying the game if you don't like where it's going. That way, it
> will stay exactly like you want it. But don't expect WWGS to develop on
> your favorite path or to remain stagnant. It's in their best interest to
> shake things up.
As opposed to blow things up.
But, Rogue Council looks like keep a good direction.
By the by - some of the recently published books for Mage (such as Dead
Magic, Mage Storyteller's Guide Revised, etc.) are damned good and worthy of
support. ST's guide in particular is excellent for guideliness on running a
'Wod'-less version of Mage.
CB
Agent Groove
> Chris, you must realize by *now* that you come off sounding like an
> absolute kook when you put forth your still-preposterous idea that Mage
> was changed to make it more like Vampire. No matter how many people who
> were actually *involved* in the making of said revision, no matter how
> many people who have actually *played* the game, no matter who says
> differently, you're clearly battened onto the concept like a bloated
> leech. But this is kook-worthy behavior. I'm sorry MageRev beat your
> puppies to death, but sometimes games do that, and maybe the puppies
> just needed to die.
Di, you have a freelancer job with WWGS, and you have friends and loved ones
there you need to shield and defend. I can't fault you for your loyalty,
but it's disingenious to say that the game line was not altered because of
the desires of Vampire players, especially those closely placed to the
management.
Mage Revised stated it very clearly - Mankind has given up hope and
responsibility for itself.
> Anyway, so long as you insist in your inane conspiracy theories about
> why and how MageRev changed in the face of actual evidence to the
> contrary, I will continue to mock you for acting like a loon.
*Sighs* You have your job to do, Di. The Vampire fanbase must be shielded
and defended at all costs. Vampire is WWGS's prime money maker. Heaven
forbid we drag Cainites, who have so much influence over how humanity acts,
into the Ascension War. That's why we need to seperate the continuities.
If you don't like the evidence that's plain and clear to see, then please
add me to your killfile.
Anyway, back to Exalted.
--
ORLANTH LIVES!
--
Chris Bell
arg...@agoron.com
cor...@optonline.net
Agent Groove
Get a grip, Rich. In the paragraph below, you highly intimate that gaming
in an action-movie style sucks, as opposed to your own personal style. You
politician, you! You should write speeches.
My guess is that the Rogue Council is a mixture of all of the below.
And what the hell is wrong with Awakening The Masses, anyway? As opposed to
sitting at home and watching Wheel of Fortune?
Keeping it 2nd Ed style,
CB
"Richard Clayton" <richzigard...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vXvK9.3156$4W1....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Agent Groove
"[Fatalist]" <frankj...@BLOKpilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:atej03$123h$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu...
> Richard Clayton wrote:
> > Oooh, another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. Please
> > continue; I find you guys almost as hilarious as people who wear
> > aluminum foil hats to repel the CIA mind control satellite beams.
>
> Not another "/Vampire/ made /Mage/ suck" conspiracy theorist. One of the
> most vocal of the last couple of years. Chris Bell, a.k.a. Coridan,
a.k.a.
> Agent Groove.
>
> I remember him throwing down with Jess at one point on this very
newsgroup.
>
> "Below illustrates that the Ascension War is still in full force, despite
> what the pro-vampire powers at WWGS would rather have you believe. Reject
> the metaplot, and demand the return of the chronicles of the war!"
> --Chris Bell in alt.games.whitewolf, 6/25/01
*Blush*
Yes, that was me.
And I do admit to being a loudmouth.
Thank you for the kind words.
--
"No Magick without humility or respect!"
-- Emily Hartman, Archmage of Jerbiton,
During mandatory curriculum for Disciples
at the World Tree Chantry, Boston, Mass.
--
Chris Bell
cor...@optonline.net
arg...@agoron.com
Agent Groove
> The Bodhisattva is in the *west* and the PCs are in the *East*, in
> Lookshy, actually, with three Deathlords outside the gates. They don't
> need another one coming all that way just to bedevil them.
The main opponent for my PC's will be the Lover Clad in Rainment of Tears.
One of my Zenith PC's has a real hate on for Deathlords - he was an
UnExalted Immaculate who's temple, which honored a small Owl spirit, was
literally marched over by Deathlord troops. He Exalted as a solar while the
mop-up troops were picking off survivors. Now, he and his owl spirit hunt
evil undead and ghosts.
I'm really looking forward to running Time of Tumult, since the Invisible
Fortress is ideally located for them to be involved with Wyld and Deathlord
shenanigans.
How close if Lookshy to Wangler's Knob, where ToT takes place? I have plans
for Lookshy to be the core of the army that the PC's will lead to retake the
Blessed Isle, way down the road. However, I have yet to buy Scavenger Sons.
> Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> Juggernaut taken away.
Is this in your TT game, Di, or in the official backstory? Of course, my
PC's will eventually have a harrowing adventure inside of that thing. Sounds
very cool.
Agent Groove
>
> 1) Given that the deathlords are nigh-impossible to kill, I don't think
> risk-aversion makes all that much sense. I mean, look at Thorns.
Agreed.
> 2) I don't know that they torture their minions.
Same here. When you're dead, not much hurts.
> 3) The power is the power.
Righto.
> In this case, the Lookshy Armory gets stolen, when Lookshy tried to use
> FA weapons on the deathlord they exploded, that sort of thing. In any
> event, there's a way to deal with the deathlord that's the major problem
> without the need to fight him directly, so.
And this is? Very curious.
> > > Well, two deathlords. One got kicked into the Labyrinth and had his
> > > Juggernaut taken away.
> >
> > Good riddance. How'd that happen?
>
> Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
> Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
> of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
> nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
Yipes! Not the "I designed the invisible fortress" Kal Bax?
I can use this. I definitely can use this.
--
"Anyone who thinks the Ascension War
is over has, what is the term,
'his head up his ass'? And, Magick still
has a 'k' attached, my dear. We're not
illusionists, you know. Now, pardon me.
I have a world to save."
Emily Hartman, Archmage of Jerbiton,
during the Hermes Reformation votes.
Agent Groove
> Semi-seriously, something's stopping the Deathlords from just stomping all
> in their paths and Rain Of Doom'ing everyone who offends them by
breathing.
It's my thought that the Deathlord have certain rules within the celestial
heirarchy that they need to obey, just as everyone else does.
First, Rain of Doom is Solar Circle Sorcery, and not every Deathlord may
know it. My suspicion is that Solar Circle Sorcery fell into the hands of
the Deathlord via the Solar Exalted who fell into their hands and were
converted to Deathknights.
Second, Solar Circle Sorcery is the exclusive province of the Unconquered
Son. If the Deathlords *themselves* enact these rites, then the Big Guy may
get pissed, and squash these bugs like the pissants they are. For my game,
the US will also have strict laws that she must obey (yes, I said *she*.
Purely my game), but she can definitely take action against those who
attempt to use her powers without her mandate. Abyssal Exalted are the
loophole around this - they are still technically Solar Exalted, and thus
act with her mandate. I suspect that most Solar Sorcery is worked by
powerful Abyssals and not Deathlords.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> What hacked me was that I was told, in Rich's post, that people who like
> 2nd's plotline were twinks, and basically sucked, and that Rogue council
> will suck because it's a return to the 'bad old days.'
Actually, the Rogue Council sucks because of implementation. No
resonance, no way to track down the transmissions, no way for the PCs to
find out what's going on - this is about as bad as it gets when it comes
to adding plot devices to a game. A literal deus ex machina that's set
up purposely to frustrate players or drive characters to acts of mass
murder.
> Yeah, the bad old days that won the GAMA awards. Heh.
GAMA awards aren't worth the e-mails they're announced on.
> Understand - we looser twinks pay writers bills. Take the 30 page rants,
> laugh at them for the inanity that they are, paper your birdcage with them,
> but ignore them at your peril. Every ranting fanboy or girl's money fills
> the coffers of WWGS.
Actually, WW pays the writers' bills. I would say that the fans pay WW
bills, but most of the fans aren't the kind to run in circles in online
forums throwing a tantrum because their favorite game isn't the supreme
game.
> The common refrain I heard from Vampire fans, when Revised happened, was :
> "Good. They were too twinky and powerful, bastards. I'm glad they got rid
> of the Ascension War nonsense. I don't want my Toreador shot down by some
> cyborg." And ya know, there was a ring of truth to that, on a couple of
> levels. And my Vampire gaming pals in a very concrete way were right.
But, fan perceptions being fan perceptions, this was just an observation
borne from how Mage had changed, not the impetus for that change.
> I still think that the changes made to Mage revised were to please Vampire
> fans, and reassure that fan base that, indeed, the World of Darkness
> belonged to them.
That's because you're either incredibly gullible or incredibly
self-deluding. You can't imagine that some people might not like Mage
the way you do.
The other option is that you're just a liar or a troll, bringing this up
to generate heat.
Finally, don't you comprehend the irony of your claims that it's unfair
for MageRev to be closer to Vampire in power level alongside your
complaints that Vampire fans like it that way?
> This is a dead horse, and a debate that I consider that
> the Mage side has won, as is witnessed by Rogue Council.
A supplement with a promising premise and a bad implementation. See
above.
> I, however, should
> not be made to feel as if I suck, because I like an intense, dramatic,
> action packed version of Mage that was around when Phil ran 2nd ed.
No, you should be made to feel as if you suck because you heaped tons of
abuse on people who didn't deserve it, and invented motives for those
people that you could then shower upon them as accusations whenever the
topic. You should be made to feel as if you suck because you behaved
like a two-year-old child denied your favorite toy.
You should also be made to feel as if you suck because you repeatedly
lied (and still lie) about how Jess made certain changes (destroyed
Doissetep and Horizon, killed Porthos, etc) that caused MageRev to be
even worse.
Your tastes are your concern. The Mage Phil developed didn't go away
with MageRev. You didn't have to play according to MageRev. The problem
was that you didn't seem to want *anyone* to play MageRev.
So a few vocal and abusive so-called "fans" (like yourself) got a bone
in the Storyteller's Handbook and the Rogue Council. The Umbra book
should be good too (and Jess put *that* on the schedule, for what it's
worth).
> And not
> to say that the metaphysical, the subtle wasn't there - look only to the
> books of that era (such as the CoX and Euthanatos Trad Books for Mage 2nd)
> as proof.
Yes, a sex-mage having sex with her own avatar is the *height* of
metaphysics, and I seem to recall hordes of complaints that the
Euthanatos paradigm was unclear from the Tradbook.
Yes, those were good books. Phil developed a lot of good books. MageRev
didn't make those books go away. But metaphysical and subtle? Are we
using the same dictionary? You know, the kind that has English words and
Roman letters?
> Again, I feel that this whole problem would be easily dealt with if WWGS
> would come out and say that the game lines each have seperate continiuties
> on a meta scale, and write their backstories from there. So, if people on
> the streets start being able to cast spells in Mage, Werewolf and Vampire
> players needn't worry about it.
Oh, fuck off. Why should WW give you a textual blow job because you
can't handle some of the things Phil *and* Jess did with the game line?
If *you* want separate continuities, go for it. No one needs to give you
or anyone else permission. *I* use separate continuities for my Vampire
and Mage games (to an extent, I mean I had the PCs from an old Vampire
game guest in the Mage game). I'm sure anyone who gives a damn about
whether this is necessary has made their own decision.
I mean, *grow up*. Get over it. Spank your inner moppet. Do whatever you
have to do so that you don't try to turn EVERY THREAD YOU POST TO into
an anti-MageRev rant.
Agent Groove
feel that Deathlords
are Evil, with a capital E, like the Yozi's are?
One tack I'm taking with my own Exalted game is that their are many
Deathlords who exist in the Underworld, who fill a similar role in Creation
that the various spirit powers do in the living world. The expansionist
Deathlord we see here are merely upstart nobles who seek to take territory
from the living. Most Deathlords do not care for conquest and action in the
living world - all will come to them, anyway. It's just a matter of time,
and the Deathlords who seek conquest in the sunlit world are merely
impatient.
--
"A leader gets power from followers.
"Violence is always an option."
"A good man does all things well"
"Mistakes are made, and fixed."
Proverbs of Orlanth, King of the Storm Gods
Chris Bell
cor...@optonline.net
arg...@agoron.com
"E. Deirdre Brooks" <kalima...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DFB9169...@attbi.com...
Stephenls
> Maybe I'm crazy (I am the NG Loon, after all), but why is it that I
> don't feel that Deathlords are Evil, with a capital E, like the Yozi's
> are?
Because you are indeed crazy. The Deathlords want to kill everyone.
They already killed nine-tenths of everyone with the Great Contagion.
Geoff said as much in the Unofficial Dev Chat (which is now,
unfortunately, lost to the perpetual amnesia of the internet). The
Deathlords are horribly, terribly evil. They sold their names and their
souls to the Malfeans in exchange for being filled with the black evil
power necessary to kill everyone living as the first stage, "With
killing everyone dead," said Geoff, "as the second, presumably."
--
Stephenls
Geek
Richard Clayton
> What hacked me was that I was told, in Rich's post, that people who like
> 2nd's plotline were twinks, and basically sucked, and that Rogue council
> will suck because it's a return to the 'bad old days.'
I said nothing of the sort. What I actually said was:
> I dislike the Rogue Council idea for my PERSONAL games, only
> because I think you can do a lot MORE with /Mage/ than the
> Ascension Action Movie War. I doubt I would ever use the Rogue
> Council; if I did, it would probably turn out to be a handful of
> bitter and extremely overzealous young punks who bought too deeply
> into their elders' tales of Ye Olde Glory Dayys of smiting HIT Marks
> and trying to Awaken the Masses. Kinda like modern "Neo-Anarchist"
> punks who talk about how great anarchy would be without seriously
> considering the consequences.
>
> On the other hand, I am glad they printed something like the Rogue
> Council, because now the people who feel like they need some kind of
> official permission from WWGS to go back to Ascension Action Movie War
> games can do so. (You know they're out there.) /Mage/ can be anything
> you want it to be, even more so than most RPGs, and if all you want to
> do is run a sort of hybrid /The Matrix/ vs. /The Craft/ jaunt, more
> power to you.
I was going to write a rather sarcastic response to this, but my good
friend Stephenls pointed out that I really was being too harsh about it.[1]
Agent Groove, I did not say what you seem to think I said. I pointed
out that the Rogue Council is probably not something I'd use in my own
games. I did NOT say that people who liked 2e were twinks, or that they
basically sucked, or that the Rogue Council sucks because it's a return
to "the bad old days."
The only abrasive comment I made is that some people seem to feel that
they need PERMISSION from the game developer to go back to all-out war
between Technocrats and Traditionalists. I certainly find THAT to be
silly; if you really liked open and constant war between the two
factions, there was no reason to ever STOP. RPG books are toolkits for
creating games you enjoy, not doctrinaire mandates for How Ye Shall Play.
You are misrepresenting my words, either deliberately or through
misunderstanding, and it bothers me.
--
The e-mail address above is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.
Richard Clayton
Licensed Warstrider Technician
[1] It's an odd feeling when your Hun tells you to tone something down.
Stephenls
> [1] It's an odd feeling when your Hun tells you to tone something
> down.
P'o. Not Hun.
--
Stephenls
Geek
Richard Clayton
Agent Groove wrote:
> Wow. A 180 turn around if I ever saw one!
Really? How?
> Get a grip, Rich. In the paragraph below, you highly intimate that gaming
> in an action-movie style sucks, as opposed to your own personal style.
That's not at all what I said. I said that Mage can do more than action
movies. I pointed out that action movies are not the goal of my own
personal games; I even put "personal" in all-caps. I was trying to
stress the idea that "maybe you like it, but I don't-- not that my own
style should be a straitjacket for others."
Perhaps you missed that point; it may have been due to stupidity, or
the fact that you have a years-old axe to grind about /Mage Revised/.
Maybe both.
> You
> politician, you! You should write speeches.
It seems like empty rhetoric is more your department, since you often
argue about the "real truth" of /Mage Revised/ without supplying any
real evidence.
> My guess is that the Rogue Council is a mixture of all of the below.
>
> And what the hell is wrong with Awakening The Masses, anyway? As opposed to
> sitting at home and watching Wheel of Fortune?
It's a great idea, but in the World of Darkness it doesn't work.
Ascension is hard; it's a path of struggle, learning, and
self-development. In the World of Darkness, THE MASSES DON'T WANT THAT.
This has nothing to do with /Vampire;/ this is because a major theme of
ALL of the /World of Darkness/ games is grimness, uncertainty, and a
bleak outlook. Which part of "World of Darkness" do you fail to understand?
> Keeping it 2nd Ed style,
>
> CB
Great. Wonderful. Have a ball with it. Play the game any way you want to.
But please, stop peddling your inane conspiracy fantasy.
Richard Clayton
> Maybe I'm crazy (I am the NG Loon, after all), but why is it that I don't
> feel that Deathlords
> are Evil, with a capital E, like the Yozi's are?
I don't know about you, but "our stated goal is to murder the entire
universe" strikes me as pretty Evil.
> One tack I'm taking with my own Exalted game is that their are many
> Deathlords who exist in the Underworld, who fill a similar role in Creation
> that the various spirit powers do in the living world. The expansionist
> Deathlord we see here are merely upstart nobles who seek to take territory
> from the living. Most Deathlords do not care for conquest and action in the
> living world - all will come to them, anyway. It's just a matter of time,
> and the Deathlords who seek conquest in the sunlit world are merely
> impatient.
That's good; you should customize your own game to suit your dramatic
desires. But that's not the Deathlords as they are written in the canon
books.
Deathknights and Deathlords are not misunderstood. They are not
bishounen good-guys-in-black-hats who dish out justice and honor in
their own peculiar antihero ways. They are not slaves to a tragic
destiny. (Well, some of them are, but it is by choice.)
They are Exalted who have sold their Names to the Slumbering Lords in
exchange for power and an unnatural sort of half-living state. They
disturb the rest of corpses to create legions of undead armies. When not
in the Shadowlands, they feed on the flesh and blood of the living to
recover their power.
I think of these things as "bad."
Richard Clayton
> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>
>>[1] It's an odd feeling when your Hun tells you to tone something
>>down.
>
>
> P'o. Not Hun.
Yes. My mistake.
Shane Graves
> The common refrain I heard from Vampire fans, when Revised happened, was :
> "Good. They were too twinky and powerful, bastards. I'm glad they got
rid
> of the Ascension War nonsense. I don't want my Toreador shot down by some
> cyborg." And ya know, there was a ring of truth to that, on a couple of
> levels. And my Vampire gaming pals in a very concrete way were right.
Then that's the retarded comments of a Vampire player. NOT the reason the
game what changed. It was changed because Mage 2nd was the baby brain-child
of someone, except the baby had six heads and twenty eight arms and legs.
It needed to be tamed, re-evaluated, and, for a lack of a better term, fix.
DEAL with the fact THAT is the reason for the change. Don't, for one
second, listen to some bitchy player who disliked the game from the get-go.
> I still think that the changes made to Mage revised were to please Vampire
> fans, and reassure that fan base that, indeed, the World of Darkness
> belonged to them.
Think that if you want. Seriously, if I could alter the way your neurons
fire so you could see logic for one second, I would.
> This is a dead horse, and a debate that I consider that
> the Mage side has won, as is witnessed by Rogue Council. I, however,
should
> not be made to feel as if I suck, because I like an intense, dramatic,
> action packed version of Mage that was around when Phil ran 2nd ed.
That's fine that you like that, as an option. Here's my beef.
My beef is that Mage 2nd wasn't about telling different kinds of stories.
It was pretty much all about Traditions vs. the Technocracy. I like how
Mage Revised forced people to think of OTHER storylines.
The Technocracy should be present, as it is a big part of the Mage setting.
And I'm sure there will be supplements that allow people to have the
Technocracy as the bad guys. But don't get cranky because, for a while, the
Technocracy had to be taken off the front burner to let the game flesh
itself out and develope beyond "Hack and slash magic in the 1990's."
Shane Graves
> Agent Groove wrote:
> > What hacked me was that I was told, in Rich's post, that people who like
> > 2nd's plotline were twinks, and basically sucked, and that Rogue council
> > will suck because it's a return to the 'bad old days.'
> Actually, the Rogue Council sucks because of implementation. No
> resonance, no way to track down the transmissions, no way for the PCs to
> find out what's going on - this is about as bad as it gets when it comes
> to adding plot devices to a game. A literal deus ex machina that's set
> up purposely to frustrate players or drive characters to acts of mass
> murder.
I hope this "No Resonance" thing is just a one trick pony and not a start of
the "I don't like Resonance as a mechanic, so it will no longer have any
role in the future game supplements."
> > The common refrain I heard from Vampire fans, when Revised happened, was
:
> > "Good. They were too twinky and powerful, bastards. I'm glad they got
rid
> > of the Ascension War nonsense. I don't want my Toreador shot down by
some
> > cyborg." And ya know, there was a ring of truth to that, on a couple of
> > levels. And my Vampire gaming pals in a very concrete way were right.
> But, fan perceptions being fan perceptions, this was just an observation
> borne from how Mage had changed, not the impetus for that change.
Exactly.
> Your tastes are your concern. The Mage Phil developed didn't go away
> with MageRev. You didn't have to play according to MageRev. The problem
> was that you didn't seem to want *anyone* to play MageRev.
The thing I always loved was that people bitched that Jess ruined Mage.
Phil was the guy that blew up Dossitep, crashed the Digital Web, and all had
the invasion of Horizon. Jess just came by with a mop and bucket.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> > Your tastes are your concern. The Mage Phil developed didn't go away
> > with MageRev. You didn't have to play according to MageRev. The problem
> > was that you didn't seem to want *anyone* to play MageRev.
>
> The thing I always loved was that people bitched that Jess ruined Mage.
> Phil was the guy that blew up Dossitep, crashed the Digital Web, and all had
> the invasion of Horizon. Jess just came by with a mop and bucket.
Chris "Agent Groove" Bell being one of the more vocal accusers of such,
despite *repeated* references to Phil's development of said events.
Having been one of the people who worked on the MageRev core, it really
really bothers me to see these accusations slung around. I went out of
my way to dig up as much of the updated history between M2 and MRev as I
could to ensure compatibility with recent publications, and because of
that comprehensive history, MageRev takes the heat for stuff that
*already* happened.
Scott McCollum
How about a cookie? Want one of those too? White chocolate and macadamia
nuts, still warm and gooey from the oven... You know you do... And a mint.
It is only wafer thin.........
Fate is over-rated anyways..... :)
Shane Graves
> "Shane Graves"
> > "Scott McCollum"
> > > "Shane Graves"
> > > > I hope Sidereals impresses me. Because I WANT to be overly
impressed
> by
> > > > them. ^_^
> > > They can eat dung. The Abyssals is where the fun is.....
> > Necromancy is neat, but good-Gdd-damn, gimmie manipulators of fate and
> > fortune and seers of the future any day.
> How about a cookie? Want one of those too? White chocolate and macadamia
> nuts, still warm and gooey from the oven... You know you do... And a
mint.
> It is only wafer thin.........
> Fate is over-rated anyways..... :)
Yeah. Well by controlling fate, I can make a truck carrying a giant load of
ready-to-bake cookie dough get set on fire, bake for the appropraite amount
of time, then explode and send all the little cookie bits to a platter I
laid out on my porch.
Necromancy can't make cookies.[1] Fate magic can. ^_^
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Shane Graves: Who still likes Necromancy, but likes flying cookies more.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
[1] Unless we're talking about DEATH COOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![2]
[2] Wow. That looks so unimpressive in plain text. That'd be so much more
impressive as RTF.
Arbane the Terrible
> First, Rain of Doom is Solar Circle Sorcery, and not every Deathlord may
> know it. My suspicion is that Solar Circle Sorcery fell into the hands of
> the Deathlord via the Solar Exalted who fell into their hands and were
> converted to Deathknights.
Well, I don't think there'd be many Solars-turned-Abyssals who'd have the
ability to learn Solar Circle Sorcery. Officially, most if not all of the
Solars currently running around Exalted less than 5 years ago, which is
hardly enough time to gain 5 Essence, much less unravel the secrets of the
most powerful sorcery in Creation, even _with_ a Deathlord tutoring you.
But that's true--not _every_ First Age Solar tyrant was an uber-sorcerer.
--
"Remember, the plural of 'moron' is 'focus group'."
-- James A. Wolf
Arbane the Terrible
>> Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
>> Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
>> of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
>> nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
>
> Yipes! Not the "I designed the invisible fortress" Kal Bax?
The one and (hopefully) only.
IIRC, one of the flavor text bits in Exalted: Lunars makes it pretty clear
that Mask of Winters is/was Kal Bax's old room-mate Larquen Quen.
Arbane the Terrible
> How close if Lookshy to Wangler's Knob, where ToT takes place? I have
> plans for Lookshy to be the core of the army that the PC's will lead to
> retake the
> Blessed Isle, way down the road. However, I have yet to buy Scavenger
> Sons.
IIRC, Wrangler's Knob and the Invisible Fortress are _way_ up North. Quite
a long way from the Scavenger Lands.
Agent Groove
> Well, I don't think there'd be many Solars-turned-Abyssals who'd have the
> ability to learn Solar Circle Sorcery. Officially, most if not all of the
> Solars currently running around Exalted less than 5 years ago, which is
> hardly enough time to gain 5 Essence, much less unravel the secrets of the
> most powerful sorcery in Creation, even _with_ a Deathlord tutoring you.
>
> But that's true--not _every_ First Age Solar tyrant was an uber-sorcerer.
True, but also remember that the Deathlords may have ways of awakening
knowledge from prior incarnations that are available to know one else,
resulting in Deathknights who are as powerful as they were back in the First
Age, and in the service of the Deathlords.
Very, very frightening thought.
Agent Groove
"Stephenls" <step...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3DFBC9B3...@shaw.ca...
> Agent Groove wrote:
>
> > Maybe I'm crazy (I am the NG Loon, after all), but why is it that I
> > don't feel that Deathlords are Evil, with a capital E, like the Yozi's
> > are?
>
> Because you are indeed crazy. The Deathlords want to kill everyone.
> They already killed nine-tenths of everyone with the Great Contagion.
Well, that was already established. :) So, the DL's were responsible for
the big plague? Didn't know that.
> Geoff said as much in the Unofficial Dev Chat (which is now,
> unfortunately, lost to the perpetual amnesia of the internet). The
> Deathlords are horribly, terribly evil. They sold their names and their
> souls to the Malfeans in exchange for being filled with the black evil
> power necessary to kill everyone living as the first stage, "With
> killing everyone dead," said Geoff, "as the second, presumably."
Wow, important stuff. Do you have a link to a transcript?
I've only been doing Exalted in the past year, so much of the Devchat stuff
is unknown to me. Thanks!
> Stephenls
> Geek
CB
Crazy Loon
Agent Groove
> > Maybe I'm crazy (I am the NG Loon, after all), but why is it that I
don't
> > feel that Deathlords
> > are Evil, with a capital E, like the Yozi's are?
>
> I don't know about you, but "our stated goal is to murder the entire
> universe" strikes me as pretty Evil.
>
> > One tack I'm taking with my own Exalted game is that their are many
> > Deathlords who exist in the Underworld, who fill a similar role in
Creation
> > that the various spirit powers do in the living world. The expansionist
> > Deathlord we see here are merely upstart nobles who seek to take
territory
> > from the living. Most Deathlords do not care for conquest and action in
the
> > living world - all will come to them, anyway. It's just a matter of
time,
> > and the Deathlords who seek conquest in the sunlit world are merely
> > impatient.
>
> That's good; you should customize your own game to suit your dramatic
> desires. But that's not the Deathlords as they are written in the canon
> books.
Thanks for letting me know! I seriously was unaware of this.
> Deathknights and Deathlords are not misunderstood. They are not
> bishounen good-guys-in-black-hats who dish out justice and honor in
> their own peculiar antihero ways. They are not slaves to a tragic
> destiny. (Well, some of them are, but it is by choice.)
>
> They are Exalted who have sold their Names to the Slumbering Lords in
> exchange for power and an unnatural sort of half-living state. They
> disturb the rest of corpses to create legions of undead armies. When not
> in the Shadowlands, they feed on the flesh and blood of the living to
> recover their power.
The ones on Earth, yes. But I'm also somewhat enamored of Emma-O
judge-of-the-dead style figures. As for the slumbering lords, some of them
may simply want to *sleep*.
Not to say that my game will not have the slaves-to-nihilism Deathlords that
are described above. But I also want to throw my PC's a curve ball.
> I think of these things as "bad."
I'd say so, too.
Agent Groove
> them. ^_^
Some of the flavor fiction in Dragon Blooded implies that Sidereals can not
only pose as Terrestrials, but that their elders are very formidable. I
find Kepak to be the Gendo Ikari of the world of Exalted, and plan to make
him one of my Chronicles main antagonists.
CB
Agent Groove
> How about a cookie? Want one of those too? White chocolate and macadamia
> nuts, still warm and gooey from the oven... You know you do... And a
mint.
> It is only wafer thin.........
Yum.
> Fate is over-rated anyways..... :)
The US and the Solar Exalted are my heartfelt firsts. Once they get up to
speed and aren't pinned down for a century or so, just you wait. They'll
roll over everyone else like monster trucks, with heroic leadership, power,
and guts to boot.
For my Exalted setting, if the PC's use their heads and their hearts, they
stand a very good chance of winning, although not without heavy cost.
Agent Groove
> Not me. I wish the Lunars were *more* powerful, but that's
> because I just love their wacky shape-shifting goodness,
> and would really like to play one in an Exalted game
> without being overshadowed by the rest of the group
> (playing Solars). I suppose I could concentrate on
> shape-shifting and grappling, since the Lunars seem
> to be superior at that.
>
> ~Pax
The Lunars are by no means weak! In fact, in their Beastman forms and with
their Charms running full steam, it seems to me that they're almost equal to
the Solar Exalted. And in terms of shape shifting, stealth and disguise,
they have no equals.
Now, a First Age game with Solar and Lunar households and spouses! Talk
about tasty.
CB
E. Deirdre Brooks
I think every last Deathlord worthy of the name knows three circles.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> Agent Groove wrote:
>
> >> Mask of Winters (Larquen Quen?) fought the Veil of Deceitful Truths (Kal
> >> Bax) and thanks to a timely side-switching, the Veil beat the crap out
> >> of Mask. Mask retreated, and Veil took his specially trained cadre of
> >> nemessaries to take over the Juggernaut.
> >
> > Yipes! Not the "I designed the invisible fortress" Kal Bax?
>
> The one and (hopefully) only.
That would be the one. Veil was in my game before Time of Tumult, but
given the history I'd already set up for him prior to the book, he fit
perfectly.
> IIRC, one of the flavor text bits in Exalted: Lunars makes it pretty clear
> that Mask of Winters is/was Kal Bax's old room-mate Larquen Quen.
Yes, the Ma Ha Suchi text refers to the "ghost of Larquen Quen" and his
Juggernaut zombie.
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> The Lunars are by no means weak! In fact, in their Beastman forms and with
> their Charms running full steam, it seems to me that they're almost equal to
> the Solar Exalted. And in terms of shape shifting, stealth and disguise,
> they have no equals.
In combat, Lunars often win, at least in the first 100-200 XP or so.
That is, from 0-100 or 0-200.
> Now, a First Age game with Solar and Lunar households and spouses! Talk
> about tasty.
The Solar wins.
Charlie
<lobst...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"E. Deirdre Brooks"
>> Agent Groove wrote:
>
>> > What hacked me was that I was told, in Rich's post, that people who like
>> > 2nd's plotline were twinks, and basically sucked, and that Rogue council
>> > will suck because it's a return to the 'bad old days.'
>
>> Actually, the Rogue Council sucks because of implementation. No
>> resonance, no way to track down the transmissions, no way for the PCs to
>> find out what's going on - this is about as bad as it gets when it comes
>> to adding plot devices to a game. A literal deus ex machina that's set
>> up purposely to frustrate players or drive characters to acts of mass
>> murder.
>
>I hope this "No Resonance" thing is just a one trick pony and not a start of
>the "I don't like Resonance as a mechanic, so it will no longer have any
>role in the future game supplements."
All the sample characters have Resonance traits in the book, so I
don't think it's getting sidelined.
The stonewalling of every attempt to discover the identity of the
Rogue Council is annoying, but not impossible to deal with.
Cheers,
Charlie B getrid to email
'It requires no extraordinary talents to lie and deceive'
- Dr. Samuel Johnson
E. Deirdre Brooks
>
> The stonewalling of every attempt to discover the identity of the
> Rogue Council is annoying, but not impossible to deal with.
It is easy to deal with - just as easy as it is to continue running Mage
2nd edition in 2nd edition style despite the existence of later books.
That doesn't change the fact that, as written, it's awful.
Charlie
<kalima...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Charlie wrote:
>>
>> The stonewalling of every attempt to discover the identity of the
>> Rogue Council is annoying, but not impossible to deal with.
>
>It is easy to deal with - just as easy as it is to continue running Mage
>2nd edition in 2nd edition style despite the existence of later books.
>
>That doesn't change the fact that, as written, it's awful.
Well, if truth be told, it pisses me off tremendously, but I've made
my New Years Resolutions early, so I'm not arguing with the
MRev-hating consipiracy theorists any more, and I'm trying to be manly
and constructive about things in books that wind me up.
cd skogsberg
>Necromancy can't make cookies.[1] Fate magic can. ^_^
>[1] Unless we're talking about DEATH COOKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![2]
>[2] Wow. That looks so unimpressive in plain text. That'd be so
>much more impressive as RTF.
Shane, have you been reading Jack Chick again?
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
/cd
--
What happened to the man/Who couldn't be defeated
Who always stood his ground/When lesser men retreated?
-- Assemblage 23, Fallen Down
Stayka deyAvemta
: My beef is that Mage 2nd wasn't about telling different kinds of stories.
: It was pretty much all about Traditions vs. the Technocracy. I like how
: Mage Revised forced people to think of OTHER storylines.
Hm. That's weird. I never saw Mage 2nd just as that. For me Mage
was about the exploration and enaction of ideas all the time. So
my annoyance with MRev stemmed from the fact that the rules made
Magick harder (alone this Paradox for every vulgar effect thingy,
no matter whether botched or not is really impractical, IMHO).
: The Technocracy should be present, as it is a big part of the
: Mage setting. And I'm sure there will be supplements that allow
: people to have the Technocracy as the bad guys. But don't get
: cranky because, for a while, the Technocracy had to be taken off
: the front burner to let the game flesh itself out and develope
: beyond "Hack and slash magic in the 1990's."
I think it's a pity that there were obviously many people who saw
it mainly as 'Hack'n'slash Magick in the 90es' - IMHO there were
lots of other opportunities which were made harder, if one wants
to adhere to the Metaplot, e.g. because of the Avatar Storm. I'm
probably lucky that I choose to ignore most of the Metaplot anyway,
but I fear there are many people who start now with the corebook
who don't see the opportunities right away.
Actually I'm glad that the MRev ST Handbook [Yeah, I have it now!]
decided to open up these avenues again by showing STs who adhere
more to the books what great flights of imagination are indeed
possible with the game.
Clear Ether!
Stayka
Joe
news:slrnavousm....@poli.dtek.chalmers.se:
> Shane, have you been reading Jack Chick again?
> http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
The Egyptians called the sun "The Great God Osiris?"