Vampires Muching a Mage
ERIK BERGESEN
i dunno about adverse effects to the Kiss when involving mages, though
i've become a blood doll myself, between correspondenses of my avatar
character (a Verbena) and a friend of mine who plays a Tzimisce. we both
enjoy it thoroughly, and haven't encountered many (unsolvable) problems.
AFAIK, vampires munching mages to death results in two things: the mage
dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
--erik bergesen, who completely advocates
becoming a blood doll--it's way too much fun to pass up! =)
**************************************** "Beware the calculations of the
* Dulce et decorum est, pro Deus mori. * meek, who gambled nothing, /
**************************************** gave nothing, and could never
**************************************** receive enough." --John Ciardi,
"Oh, a thousand pardons--a city where * "In Place of a Curse"
I can coexist harmoniously with the
mortals? This is to be my earthly paradise? This is the Brujah dream?
Hmmmph--I thought I was a blood-drinking nocturnal marauder, but I am
obviously mistaken." thus spoke the Tzimisce
in _Vampire:_the_Dark_Ages_
On 27 Jul 1996, JacquieWa wrote:
> Hello,
>
> FIRST - if you could, please direct any responses to this question to
> kel...@cruzio.com - NOT this jacquiewa account or simply post it on this
> newsgroup as I rarely access it.
> I run a Crossover PBEM game and a vampire p.c. in my game has just munched
> a Hollow One.
> Knowing that vampires can be affected by feeding off of werewolves, I was
> wondering if vampires suffer similar effects from feeding off of a Mage
> and if so, in which book or supplement can I read about such effects.
>
> Much thanks for any help, John K.
>
>
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960727133831.4257A-100000@haywire>, ERIK
BERGESEN <eber...@haywire.csuhayward.edu> wrote:
> i dunno about adverse effects to the Kiss when involving mages, though
> i've become a blood doll myself, between correspondenses of my avatar
> character (a Verbena) and a friend of mine who plays a Tzimisce. we both
> enjoy it thoroughly, and haven't encountered many (unsolvable) problems.
> AFAIK, vampires munching mages to death results in two things: the mage
> dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
> ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
or more pips in any sphere, really:
Correspondence: Open a small window to daylight
Entropy: Make the vampire decide to bleed someone else (what amazing luck!)
Forces: Displace mage's image so the vamp couldn't find him, blind the vamp.
Life: Keep herself alive by routing blood away from the veins the vamp uses.
Matter: Change the vamp's fangs to chalk dust (very easy), eyes to water.
Mind: Subliminal Impulse: fear or disgust "I was going to eat that? Eww."
Prime: Rubbing the Bones
Spirit: Perhaps call a small spirit to distract the vamp? Not sure here.
Time: Give the mage enough warning to avoid the vampire in the first place.
The last two are iffy, but I can't think of any mage that only has two
pips in time and two in spirit.
K.
ERIK BERGESEN
On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Kraig Blackwelder wrote:
> You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
i'm glad someone finally responded to a post i sent, i'd appreciate a
little bit more thought on what you say. i said that i might be wrong,
but that there was a possibility of using sphere magick should the
vampire have had that ability in life. if not, no chance. as is, i only
related my experiences as a blood-doll, and advocated that others give it
a try...
> getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
> don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> or more pips in any sphere, really:
[descriptions of sphere related effects snipped]
i'd also like to see a vampire try feeding on an unwilling
willworker. we're not people to trifle with, and the vamp in question
would find that out rather quickly. i agree, unwilling mages are not
a good source for food, but go back and re-read my post. that's not
the main thrust of what i was talking about...
--erik, calmed down now...
JacquieWa
Dark Jester
In article <kraigb-2707...@praline186068.nuts.nwu.edu>, Kraig
Blackwelder <kra...@nwu.edu> writes
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960727133831.4257A-100000@haywire>, ERIK
>BERGESEN <eber...@haywire.csuhayward.edu> wrote:
>
>> i dunno about adverse effects to the Kiss when involving mages, though
>> i've become a blood doll myself, between correspondenses of my avatar
>> character (a Verbena) and a friend of mine who plays a Tzimisce. we both
>> enjoy it thoroughly, and haven't encountered many (unsolvable) problems.
>> AFAIK, vampires munching mages to death results in two things: the mage
>> dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
>> ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
When a vampire who was a Rom drinks from another, he can gain while he
has her blood in his system, her powers, but he can only control them if
he had them during life, and thus has the necessary experience and
skill.
he he he
The Dark Jester
Et T <te...@tene.demon.co.uk>
Dark Jester
In article <31FB4E...@epix.net>, Joshua Henri Bouton
<mor...@epix.net> writes
>Do you mean that a Mage who is Embraced can cast magik? Cause if so, I
>hate to tell you but I don't thinks so. There was a big discussion on
>this about a month ago, and from that and what I've read about Mages,
>there Avatar gets suppressed when Embraced. (ie - No more Magik)
Let me summerise.
In theory a mage does not keep the ability to weild True Magick.
The avatar shreds during the Embrace.
But there are a _very_ few vampires, in the True Hand (as ever) who have
kept their ability to channel True Magick.
Marco
> You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
> getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
> don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> or more pips in any sphere, really:
> Correspondence: Open a small window to daylight
> Entropy: Make the vampire decide to bleed someone else (what amazing luck!)
> Forces: Displace mage's image so the vamp couldn't find him, blind the vamp.
> Life: Keep herself alive by routing blood away from the veins the vamp uses.
> Matter: Change the vamp's fangs to chalk dust (very easy), eyes to water.
> Mind: Subliminal Impulse: fear or disgust "I was going to eat that? Eww."
> Prime: Rubbing the Bones
> Spirit: Perhaps call a small spirit to distract the vamp? Not sure here.
> Time: Give the mage enough warning to avoid the vampire in the first place.
You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
Marco.
David H. Jennings
Marco wrote:
> > Correspondence: Open a small window to daylight
> > Entropy: Make the vampire decide to bleed someone else (what amazing luck!)
> > Forces: Displace mage's image so the vamp couldn't find him, blind the vamp.
> > Life: Keep herself alive by routing blood away from the veins the vamp uses.
> > Matter: Change the vamp's fangs to chalk dust (very easy), eyes to water.
> > Mind: Subliminal Impulse: fear or disgust "I was going to eat that? Eww."
> > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
> > Spirit: Perhaps call a small spirit to distract the vamp? Not sure here.
> > Time: Give the mage enough warning to avoid the vampire in the first place.
>
> You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
> think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
> sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
>
> Marco.
Not neccessarily. One word: countermagick. According to M:tA 2E, a mage
can use either direct countermagick for certain Disciplines (e.g. Mind to
counter Presence or Dominate) or Sphere vs. Sphere countermagick to
counter the effects of any Discipline. The crossover rules only apply to
the usage of the effect of a Discipline/Gift/Sphere/Arcanos/Art against
another supernaturals Gift/Sphere/Arcanos/Art/Discipline. They make no
provision for countermagick, which could presumably allow someone with
but one rank in a Sphere counter an Antediluvian's Discipline. Granted,
this occurence is unlikely in the EXTREME, but possible nonetheless. I
wonder, could a mage use offensive countermagick against non-Sphere
powers?
Truth until Paradox.
-Brian
David H. Jennings
Marc Mielke wrote:
> Furthermore, you don't even have to USE the power of the bond, giving them
> no reason to try and break it, which any Life, Prime or Spirit mage worth
> his Avatar can probably do. You only need the bond for the ritual.
>
> -Marc
It's actually quite difficult to break a Blood Bond. It requires a
conjunctional Life 4, Mind 3, Entropy 3, Prime 1 Effect, and "Kindred
Lore (and lots of it!)" (M:tA 2E, pg. 232). I have interpreted this last
requirement as at least 4 dots worth. Most mages cannot destroy a Bond.
-Brian
ERIK BERGESEN
confused about, but mind you, i had no thought of saying that mages who
become vampires can still wield magick, and in fact said that mages who
end up embraced lose that capacity, but yes, i had former-mage-vamp's
confused with former-gypsy-vamps. thanks for the reminder (and thank you
for thinking).
my apologies to the orginal poster of this thread,
erik bergesen
Marc Mielke
Joshua Henri Bouton <mor...@epix.net> wrote in article
<31FB4E...@epix.net>...
> > AFAIK, vampires munching mages to death results in two things: the mage
> > dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
> > ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
>
> Do you mean that a Mage who is Embraced can cast magik? Cause if so, I
> hate to tell you but I don't thinks so. There was a big discussion on
> this about a month ago, and from that and what I've read about Mages,
> there Avatar gets suppressed when Embraced. (ie - No more Magik)
>
There is a way for Vampires to do True Magick. Blood-Bind a Mage, and use
the Level Four ritual called "Drawing Upon the Bound". Good reason to ghoul
some mages, if you ask me...not too many will pass up the cheap healing
and point of Potence, especially if they are weak in Life.
Donald Bachman
Marco (mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu) wrote:
: You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
: think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
: sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
You may want to check Mage 2nd yourself. That silly junk from The Chaos Factor
has been shunted out the window.
: Marco.
Donald
mshe...@ivory.trentu.ca
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960727133831.4257A-100000@haywire>, ERIK BERGESEN <eber...@haywire.csuhayward.edu> writes:
>i dunno about adverse effects to the Kiss when involving mages, though
>i've become a blood doll myself, between correspondenses of my avatar
>character (a Verbena) and a friend of mine who plays a Tzimisce. we both
>enjoy it thoroughly, and haven't encountered many (unsolvable) problems.
>dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
>ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
no, they may NOT wield true magick- ever, if a vampire.this is why the tremere
developed thaumaturgy. magick comes from a special, EARNED insight represented
by the avatar, and is not translated into thier blood.however, a high arete or
avatar might make the blood more potent, givibg the mage more BP for feeding
purposes, since vamps drink blood to gain quintessence [Mage2nd, prime]
> --erik bergesen, who completely advocates
>becoming a blood doll--it's way too much fun to pass up! =)
>
>
>
>**************************************** "Beware the calculations of the
>* Dulce et decorum est, pro Deus mori. * meek, who gambled nothing, /
>**************************************** gave nothing, and could never
>**************************************** receive enough." --John Ciardi,
>"Oh, a thousand pardons--a city where * "In Place of a Curse"
>I can coexist harmoniously with the
>mortals? This is to be my earthly paradise? This is the Brujah dream?
>Hmmmph--I thought I was a blood-drinking nocturnal marauder, but I am
>obviously mistaken." thus spoke the Tzimisce
> in _Vampire:_the_Dark_Ages_
>
>On 27 Jul 1996, JacquieWa wrote:
>
tam sherwin chih
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Marco wrote:
>
> > You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> > allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> > magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
> > getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> > vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> > accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
> > don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> > or more pips in any sphere, really:
>
> > Correspondence: Open a small window to daylight
> > Entropy: Make the vampire decide to bleed someone else (what amazing luck!)
> > Forces: Displace mage's image so the vamp couldn't find him, blind the vamp.
> > Life: Keep herself alive by routing blood away from the veins the vamp uses.
> > Matter: Change the vamp's fangs to chalk dust (very easy), eyes to water.
> > Mind: Subliminal Impulse: fear or disgust "I was going to eat that? Eww."
> > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
> > Spirit: Perhaps call a small spirit to distract the vamp? Not sure here.
> > Time: Give the mage enough warning to avoid the vampire in the first place.
>
>
> You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
> think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
> sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
>
>
> Marco.
>
Yeah, but I'd still like to see an elder try their luck against Porthos.
Fighting against someone who can blow up mountains has got to be an
experience.
--Sherwin Tam
Karen Kuhn
Marc Mielke wrote:
>
> Joshua Henri Bouton <mor...@epix.net> wrote in article
> <31FB4E...@epix.net>...
> > > dies, and the vampire may or may not wield True Magick if she had the
> > > ability (i.e. was a mage) pre-Embrace. hope that helped...
> >
> > hate to tell you but I don't thinks so. There was a big discussion on
> > this about a month ago, and from that and what I've read about Mages,
> > there Avatar gets suppressed when Embraced. (ie - No more Magik)
> >
> There is a way for Vampires to do True Magick. Blood-Bind a Mage, and use
> the Level Four ritual called "Drawing Upon the Bound". Good reason to ghoul
>
> some mages, if you ask me...not too many will pass up the cheap healing
> and point of Potence, especially if they are weak in Life.
>
> Furthermore, you don't even have to USE the power of the bond, giving them
> no reason to try and break it, which any Life, Prime or Spirit mage worth
> his Avatar can probably do. You only need the bond for the ritual.
Of course, Drawing upon the Bound states the ritual "allows a vampire
to utilize the Disciplines of any individual, Kindred or kine,...",
not any *magic* they have. It also states that the victim cannot use
the Disciplines while the vampire does. Perhaps the mage would like
the potence and regeneration effects, but I think after a few combats
where this poor ghoul had no magic to use because his master was using
the ghoul's magick to defend himself, the ghoul would have a reason to
try and break it.
>
> -Marc
Deathstalker
In article <Pine.A32.3.94.960729...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu>,
Marco <mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
>You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
>think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
>sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
A mage can use sphere vs. sphere countermagick on any discipline which
affects him (that includes Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence, Dementation,
Melpominee, Obtenebration when used offensively, etc.) and most magicks run
circles around disciplines. The obvious counter to Celerity? Use Time 5 and
pull the vampire out of the timestream, or jump out yourself.
Master Porthos is MORE than capable of decimating an elder vampire.
Joshua Henri Bouton
Deathstalker wrote:
> A mage can use sphere vs. sphere countermagick on any discipline which
> affects him (that includes Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence, Dementation,
> Melpominee, Obtenebration when used offensively, etc.) and most magicks run
> circles around disciplines.
Small problem with this. Level ten Obfuscate. The Mage would never even
know that the Vamp existed and therefore could take no action to aviod
him. How can you fight against some thing that you unconcious mind
denies the existance of? You cannot even make a concious choice to see
past it because your unconcious mind will just direct you away from doing
it in the first place!
--
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
88 The Lasombra Page http://members.tripod.com/~morvius/index.html 88
88 88
88 "Once the snake understands that you will die rather than let 88
88 it control you, you have mastered it." 88
88 --Snake-Eyes by Tom Maddox 88
88 88
88 Faith, 88
88 Joshua 88
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <31FF84...@epix.net>, Joshua Henri Bouton
<mor...@epix.net> wrote:
> Deathstalker wrote:
>
> > A mage can use sphere vs. sphere countermagick on any discipline which
> > affects him (that includes Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence, Dementation,
> > Melpominee, Obtenebration when used offensively, etc.) and most magicks run
> > circles around disciplines.
>
> Small problem with this. Level ten Obfuscate. The Mage would never even
> know that the Vamp existed and therefore could take no action to aviod
> him. How can you fight against some thing that you unconcious mind
> denies the existance of? You cannot even make a concious choice to see
> past it because your unconcious mind will just direct you away from doing
> it in the first place!
There are how many kindred able to use Obfuscate 10? Maybe five? I'd be
willing to bet that any mage with Mind 4 and Correspondence 3 could work
around Obfuscate 10. It might not even take that much. Actually, add
Entropy 5 to that and you could zero in on the source of the disruption
and disrupt it with destroy thought. The vampire would lose its ability
to keep up the obfuscate--or think at all. Even elders and antediluvians
are no real match for a master of spheres.
K.
James McPherson
Marco (mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu) wrote:
: You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
: think for a mage to fight off a vamp
Eh, Chaos Factor's rules were a little wonky. With MtA:2 mages give as
well as they get against the other supernatural.
, and if the vamp is an elder with
: sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
Yah, and if I toss a mage that's as old as the vamp I lay my odds on the
mage. (And any mage with Life:3 is potentially immortal. Spend time in
an Umbral realm where humans don't age is another option to have a 5,000
year old mage)
Don't compare kittens to tigers. There's always something "bigger." The
question isn't who can be more powerful (Cuz the answer is "The GM") but
who can be the most effective with what they have. A neonate with an IQ
of 275 can defeat a 700 year old elder, if he's creative.
--
Kilroy
MynstiomN
Kig Mat'Zo Mat
http://www.ntr.net/~kilroy
Mr. Opinionated
I don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who
had two or more pips in any sphere, really:
The question was:What do it do?'Tis a game with realist overtones,
(yeah ...okay, a game with Vampires, Mages and BEARS{oh my!}) and people
do flub or get surprised. Unless the powers that be (are you listening
you wretched publishers?!!) are intent on informing us all, it's a
judgement call. Personally, I'd remind people that Diaberie(I hope thats
the right spelling....It's friggin' early)is impossible on mortals, so
gaining perminant spheres is impossible. Any benifit gained is only
present when the blood is. The Antagonists Book has a section on
Psionisistsistus(early) that could easily be adapted.
Techno-Destructo
In article <kraigb-2707...@praline186068.nuts.nwu.edu>,
kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
> You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
> getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> or more pips in any sphere, really:
You must think that vampires are not only pathetic but stupid as well.
Any elder worth his salt would dominate a targeted individual before
attempting to
feed, and even if they couldn't dominate all they have to do is get there
teeth
in and its all over. The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
action
has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire before he goes unconscious due
to
blood loss.
> Prime: Rubbing the Bones
this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
------------
Subvert the Dominant Paradigm
Deathstalker
>Small problem with this. Level ten Obfuscate. The Mage would never even
>know that the Vamp existed and therefore could take no action to aviod
If the vampire does something that would tip you off (starts tossing
fireballs with Thaumaturgy, for example), your conscious mind starts to get
suspicious. Never mind the unconscious - it can be overriden. And gee, an
average scan will have this way of alerting you to something strange.
>denies the existance of? You cannot even make a concious choice to see
>past it because your unconcious mind will just direct you away from doing
If this was true, Auspex would be completely useless.
Mutt
Mr. Opinionated wrote:
>
> I don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who
> had two or more pips in any sphere, really:
> The question was:What do it do?'Tis a game with realist overtones,
> (yeah ...okay, a game with Vampires, Mages and BEARS{oh my!}) and people
> do flub or get surprised. Unless the powers that be (are you listening
> you wretched publishers?!!) are intent on informing us all, it's a
> judgement call. Personally, I'd remind people that Diaberie(I hope thats
> the right spelling....It's friggin' early)is impossible on mortals, so
> gaining perminant spheres is impossible. Any benifit gained is only
> present when the blood is. The Antagonists Book has a section on
> Psionisistsistus(early) that could easily be adapted.
Aw, come on! I mean, really! A vampire would most likely draw the
same powers from mage blood as they do unawakened human blood. End
of discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <rob-3107...@ppp2.biochem.purdue.edu>,
r...@aclcb.purdue.edu (Techno-Destructo) wrote:
> In article <kraigb-2707...@praline186068.nuts.nwu.edu>,
> kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
>
> > You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> > allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> > magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
> > getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> > vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> > accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
> > don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> > or more pips in any sphere, really:
>
> You must think that vampires are not only pathetic but stupid as well.
Only when compared to mages, particularly experienced ones.
> Any elder worth his salt would dominate a targeted individual before
> attempting to
> feed, and even if they couldn't dominate all they have to do is get there
> teeth
> in and its all over.
Wow, any game you ST must be like Disneyworld for the vamps, eh?
First: Not all vampires have dominate.
Second: Mages can counter Dominate (and Presence) with counter magick.
Third: The moment the vampire touches the mage she opens herself up to all
kinds of other effects that have touch as the range (Matter 2: Teeth (and
bones) to Chalk dust). Where do you get the idea that the moment the
teeth are in it's all over?
> The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
> action
> has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire before he goes unconscious due
> to
> blood loss.
Unless the mage has any rating at all in Life, in which case she can route
the blood around the vampire-induced injury, keeping her blood, giving her
lots of time to work nasty magick, and leaving the vamp unfulfilled.
>
> > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
> this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
> the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
> becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
Prime doesn't require life. Anything that has a pattern, from a vampire
to a mortal, to a steam roller, can be messed with using Prime. Prime is
the basic Eldrich energy of the universe, and everything needs it to
exist. Drain something of Prime and it fades out. Drain a living (or
unliving) thing of a little Prime (using Rubbing the Bones) and it feels
it.
> Subvert the Dominant Paradigm
Nice sentiment, but when choosing your sig.file, remember: If it's on a
bumper sticker already, it's probably not very new or clever.
K.
jbu...@capricorn.kent.edu
|>
|> > A mage can use sphere vs. sphere countermagick on any discipline which
|> > affects him (that includes Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence, Dementation,
|> > Melpominee, Obtenebration when used offensively, etc.) and most magicks run
|> > circles around disciplines.
|>
|> know that the Vamp existed and therefore could take no action to aviod
|> past it because your unconcious mind will just direct you away from doing
Obfuscate 10 wipes the vampire from history. It makes him impossible to
recognize, not invisible. If 5 or more successes are rolled (not a given with 8
diff.), a person can't see him, but that doesn't apply in combat, anymore than it
does to the rest of the Obfuscate powers.
--
Jim Burdo
jbu...@scorpio.kent.edu
"We are the Hollow Men. We have always been here."
tam sherwin chih
On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Techno-Destructo wrote:
> In article <kraigb-2707...@praline186068.nuts.nwu.edu>,
> kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
>
> > You're giving out disinformation. Feeding off a mage does not somehow
> > allow a vampire to connect to that mage's avatar and thus use real
> > magick. The mage would have to be pretty puny not to have any way of
> > getting away or defending herself.... I'd love to see some goofball
> > vampire (even an elder) try something as stupid as munching an
> > accomplished mage (say, Porthos Fitz-Empress, just for kicks....) I
> > don't see how a vampire would be able to do anything to a mage who had two
> > or more pips in any sphere, really:
>
> You must think that vampires are not only pathetic but stupid as well.
> Any elder worth his salt would dominate a targeted individual before
> attempting to
> feed, and even if they couldn't dominate all they have to do is get there
> teeth
> in and its all over. The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
> action
> has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire before he goes unconscious due
> to
> blood loss.
>
While I don't agree that mages with only two dots can handle accomplished
vampires, mages aren't down for the count when vampires appear. I can't
comment on Dominate, since I don't know the rules for vampire, but as for
the battle being over once vampires just "get their teeth in":
1) This is first assuming that the mage has not already 'ported out using
Correspondence, slowed or even stopped vampire in his/her tracks using
Time, messed with the vampire's need to fight or ability to think with
Mind, etc.
2) If the vampire does get close enough to get his/her teeth in, as
mentioned before, he/she can't draw blood if there exists no teeth;
perhaps they decayed through infrequent brushing, perhaps the vampire's
saliva somehow turned acidic... Mages also have a tendency to build up
lots of static (no Bounce), which is of course discharged on touch. The
mage seems to have some very tough skin, like a callus, right where the
vampire is trying to bite. Anyone play Earthdawn? Recall the thorn
elves, with thorns growing out of their skin? Yeowch! And of course, the
vampire could always trip or fall and suffer a nasty concussion trying
to reach the mage.
3) The vampire manages to sink his/her teeth in. But, somehow, he/she
keeps missing a vein; the mage's blood happens to carry a rare
paralyzing or poisonous toxin (as the mage says "I've spent years
building up an immunity..."); The mage is frightened, and his blood
freezes in terror... The vampire suddenly loses his/her train of
thought, and is left wondering, "Wait, why am I violating someone's
personal space again?". And, since the vampire has to stay in close, the
mage has an opportunity to show that Garou and Kindred aren't the only
ones with sharp pointy things coming out of their body.
The point being, never underestimate a mage with good ability, and an
imagination. The relative looseness of the Spheres allows mages much
more creativity than the abilities of other supernaturals in WoD. And
remember mages' abilities in using magic aren't affected by their health
level.
Of course, this is not to say that vampires are wimps, either. The
Disciplines, while being set in nature of effect, are nonetheless
powerful in their own right -- sure, it's sorta like "canned magic",
but if said canned magic can still blow someone away, it doesn't matter
whether it's creative enough. It comes down to, like my martial
arts instructor says, who makes the first mistake in a fight, and who's
the most innovative and resourceful, as much as each of the fighter's
abilities.
Of course, I still think that Porthos could kick most any elder's butt. ;)
--Sherwin Tam
Kraig Blackwelder
Another way a mage could evade a vampire: Forces 2: Make the vampire
frictionless. No grabbing, no walking, no flying, no feeding: Big mean
vampiew faww down, go boom. This could be made coincidental (especially
by a Son of Ether) by squirting the vampire with Slip-Rex: The King of
Lubricants !
K.
Deathstalker
>Any elder worth his salt would dominate a targeted individual before
And any mage with Mind can counter.
>in and its all over. The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
>action has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire before he goes unconscious
>due to blood loss.
Master Porthos only needs two rounds to do one of many things:
- Use Correspondence to send said vampire away. (Corr 4)
- Use Entropy to delete the thought in the vampire's mind that he ever
wanted to feed off said mage. (Entropy 5)
- Use Forces 6 (!!!) to make the vampire go flying halfway across the world,
or just make the vampire disintegrate (concentrated sun blast).
- Use Life and Matter and pull Rip the Man-Body. (Matter 3/Life 3)
- Use Mind to turn the vampire's mind to malleable mush. (Mind 5)
- Use Prime to completely snuff out the vampire by wiping out its ability to
use blood pool (Prime 5)
- Use Spirit, along with Correspondence, to toss that vampire into the Deep
Umbra (Corr 4/Spirit 4)
- Use Time and stop the vampire. (Time 3)
And that only covers SOME of the conjunctional effects!
>this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
>the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
>becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
No, the vampire still has Quintessence running through him after the
Embrace. It's a little something called the Blood Pool (which, if you'll
recall, can be used as Tass).
Clemens Schmitz
Techno-Destructo wrote:
{snip}
> Any elder worth his salt would dominate a targeted individual before
> a willpower a round to take action has maybe 2 rounds to take out
> the vampire before he goes unconscious due to blood loss.
Umm wouldn't a Life 2 or 3 effect fix that? Something that creates more
blood in your body or keeps the brain actice with very little oxygen?
> > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
> this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
> the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
> becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would
> fail.
You are assuming that vampires have no need for Quintessence flow? They are
surely not inanimate things, they require Life and Matter to be affected by
Magick. I always thought Quintessence was flowing through their pattern,
too... perhaps it is the Quintessence bound in the Vitae. When their blood
stops flowing (or is missing), thay fall into Torpor (i.e. become inanimate
things), that's an interesting train of thought...
> Subvert the Dominant Paradigm
Umm, you had me puzzled here a moment... I thought you were a
Techno-Destructor, but now I guess you are out to destroy the Technos....
Clemens
--
'The first ten million years were the worst', said Marvin,
'and the second ten million years, they were the worst too.
The third ten million years I didn't enjoy at all.
After that I went into a bit of a decline.'
-Douglas Adams-
Mr. Opinionated
Joshua Henri Bouton wrote:
>
> Deathstalker wrote:
>
Mage would never even.......
I say:
If you get to the point where you have Level 10 anything, either the
target is a newly awakened or inexperianced mage, or all hell's breaking
loose!(possibly quite literally!) If the campaign has gotten to that
point the characters should be either fighting Gehenna, resting in
Torpor
or simply retired! No Antagonism, but COME-ONNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!
Eric Robert Sylwester
So while this great argument over what mages can do to vampires and vice
versa rages, I just wanted to say that y'all might (stress *might*) be
forgetting the brawl manouver "grapple." Regardless of who or what you
are, if you win initiative and successfully grapple (a big if), your
opponent looses their action for the round. Not their dodge. Not their
attack, not their physical action- their *action*. Using Arete for a
magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
you are successfully grappled- it can be Joe sleeper wrestler from the
circus, and as long as he keeps winning initiative and grappling, you are
stuck. Which makes for great tag-team efforts, as you stop them from doing
any offensive action and force them to go to defense (because if they
don't, they lose their attack anyways most likely).
Perhaps Sam Haight started out as just an excellent brawler with a
friend.
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Mr. Opinionated
There, now it's fixed. Grumble Grumble
David Johnston
Mutt:
-> Aw, come on! I mean, really! A vampire would most likely draw the
-> same powers from mage blood as they do unawakened human blood. End of
-> discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wouldn't go quite that far. If the mage was a Master, I might go so
far as to give the Vampire a point in a similar discipline for a little
while. Unfortunately the power wouldn't be under conscious control, but
you could use the experience to learn the discipline later. That's
because of the descriptions of Sphere Masters tingling with power or
being in perfect glowing health, which makes me think that some might
rub off.
In default of that, I'd certainly add the quintessance of a mage to the
available blood pool, on the grounds that turnabout is fairplay. If
mages get tass from vampire blood, then it seems reasonably that
quintessence is convertable into blood points.
Eric
Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org> wrote:
>In article <rob-3107...@ppp2.biochem.purdue.edu>, r...@aclcb.purdue.edu
>(Techno-Destructo) writes:
>>this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
>>the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
>>becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
> No, the vampire still has Quintessence running through him after the
>Embrace. It's a little something called the Blood Pool (which, if you'll
>recall, can be used as Tass).
Reread the basics of Mage concerning the Pattern. EVERYthing has
quintessence...it is needed to hold anything together. That is why
you need Prime 2 to create Matter/Life/or Forces from nothing.
Vampires have had their Avatars disconnected not the Quintessence that
allows them to exist.
------------------------------------------------------------
Don't throw it all away--No one day's the same
You must realize--it's all in your mind
Don't emphasize the pain--on one particular day
If you feel you're starting to slide
Just pull yourself together
Remember all that matters is you try
----------------------------------------------------------
Aerospace Web Admin
Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: So while this great argument over what mages can do to vampires and vice
: versa rages, I just wanted to say that y'all might (stress *might*) be
: forgetting the brawl manouver "grapple." Regardless of who or what you
: are, if you win initiative and successfully grapple (a big if), your
: opponent looses their action for the round. Not their dodge. Not their
: attack, not their physical action- their *action*. Using Arete for a
: magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
: you are successfully grappled- it can be Joe sleeper wrestler from the
: circus, and as long as he keeps winning initiative and grappling, you are
: stuck. Which makes for great tag-team efforts, as you stop them from doing
: any offensive action and force them to go to defense (because if they
: don't, they lose their attack anyways most likely).
: Perhaps Sam Haight started out as just an excellent brawler with a
: friend.
Errrr, ummmm, no :) .... How would grappling someone prevent them from
thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
completely forgotten how to add 2+2!" ... gimme a break. Arete is the one
stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
mental action. Now, if the MAge had to wave his hands around or use some
foci outside of chanting then he's screwed without the use of his hands,
yes. But, if he doesn't need that foci then he can still use his magick
and doesn't have much worry about range cause you're touching him :)
I can't see ANY justification for losing mental actions just because you
got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
/> David J. Hill "The important things is not to
/< ae...@acs.ryerson.ca stop questioning" - Albert Einstein
[\\\\\\(O):::<=====================-
\< Aerospace "All things considered, insanity
\> Engineering may be the only reasonable alternative"
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>, ae...@acs.ryerson.ca (Aerospace Web
Admin) wrote:
> Errrr, ummmm, no :) .... How would grappling someone prevent them from
> thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
> completely forgotten how to add 2+2!" ... gimme a break. Arete is the one
> stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
> mental action. Now, if the MAge had to wave his hands around or use some
> foci outside of chanting then he's screwed without the use of his hands,
> yes. But, if he doesn't need that foci then he can still use his magick
> and doesn't have much worry about range cause you're touching him :)
Sons of Ether and (especially) Virtual Adepts would be toast, though.
K.
w5...@unbsj.ca
In article <4tmg34$c...@oolong.memphis.edu> Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org> writes:
>From: Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org>
>Subject: Re: Vampires Muching a Mage
>Date: 31 Jul 1996 02:23:32 GMT
>In article <Pine.A32.3.94.960729...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu>,
>Marco <mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> writes:
>>You need to look at the crossover rules again. It's not as easy as you
>>think for a mage to fight off a vamp, and if the vamp is an elder with
>>sixes or more in a couple disciplines, the mage is basically screwed.
> A mage can use sphere vs. sphere countermagick on any discipline which
>affects him (that includes Dominate, Obfuscate, Presence, Dementation,
>Melpominee, Obtenebration when used offensively, etc.) and most magicks run
>circles around disciplines. The obvious counter to Celerity? Use Time 5 and
>pull the vampire out of the timestream, or jump out yourself.
One small flaw in your post. Mages clearly states that Mages can not
use countermagick on Obfuscate. Based on what chapture nine says I'd rule
that a mage could countermagick Dementation (used on him) but not
Obtenebration.
By the way, has anyone out there made an indix for Mage (2 ed)? I've found
the one White Wolf included to be a bit lacking.
Richard
Marty Busse
In article <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
Aerospace Web Admin <ae...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>: So while this great argument over what mages can do to vampires and vice
>: versa rages, I just wanted to say that y'all might (stress *might*) be
>: forgetting the brawl manouver "grapple." Regardless of who or what you
>: are, if you win initiative and successfully grapple (a big if), your
>: opponent looses their action for the round. Not their dodge. Not their
>: attack, not their physical action- their *action*. Using Arete for a
>: magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
>: you are successfully grappled- it can be Joe sleeper wrestler from the
>: circus, and as long as he keeps winning initiative and grappling, you are
>: stuck. Which makes for great tag-team efforts, as you stop them from doing
>: any offensive action and force them to go to defense (because if they
>: don't, they lose their attack anyways most likely).
>: Perhaps Sam Haight started out as just an excellent brawler with a
>: friend.
>
>thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
>completely forgotten how to add 2+2!"
Get put into a nasty chokehold sometime and see how your thought processes
go.
>... gimme a break. Arete is the one
>stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
>mental action.
Again, try to do a surface integral while being choked. Difficult,
isn't it?
>Now, if the MAge had to wave his hands around or use some
>foci outside of chanting then he's screwed without the use of his hands,
>yes. But, if he doesn't need that foci then he can still use his magick
>and doesn't have much worry about range cause you're touching him :)
>
>I can't see ANY justification for losing mental actions just because you
>got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
>plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
>
>
> /> David J. Hill "The important things is not to
> /< ae...@acs.ryerson.ca stop questioning" - Albert Einstein
> [\\\\\\(O):::<=====================-
> \< Aerospace "All things considered, insanity
> \> Engineering may be the only reasonable alternative"
>
--
"The age that bore me was indeed a world full of restricted and undisciplined
people, overtaken by power, by possessions and new great freedoms, and unable
to make any civilzed use of them whatever."-H.G. Wells
Visitant
kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
[grappling foci snipped]
> Sons of Ether and (especially) Virtual Adepts would be toast, though.
Ah, but only if you were foolish enough not to have readied
a neurotronic scanner to operate attuned on your sigma wave
emissions or worn a galvonic-kirlian sensor vest. Either one
will give you some control independent of mechanical triggers.
It's your own fault if you hadn't already applied time release
Garlicaconite spray-on combination vampire/werewolf repellent.
(Very effective at preventing bites - from insects, too!)
Don't forget expanding reactive armor (effectively acting
as airbags in crash situations as well).
Of course, VA's have their optic trackers, twitch sensors,
SQUIDS, voice recognition, and subdermals as I/O devices....
Jeez, what were you expecting, a powerglove? ;)
(Even omitting most actual "cyberware", there's still the
potential for some very subtle input devices out; especially
true if they're actually previously enacted Correspondence,
Forces, or Mind effects.)
Preparation (and a little bit of subtlty) is all it takes.
Delayed effect foci are something to be a bit careful about;
a Progenitor shouldn't be able simply inject saline into a vein
then call up any effect later. Broad-spectrum wonder-drugs,
including ones that become active only under certain predefined
circumstances (adrenalin levels beyond a threshold, exposure to
vampire/werewolf saliva, etc.) come close, but should require
some forethought. All in my opinion.
> K.
vis.
Eric Robert Sylwester
eley.edu> <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>:
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution:
Aerospace Web Admin (ae...@acs.ryerson.ca) wrote:
: : attack, not their physical action- their *action*. Using Arete for a
: : magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
: : you are successfully grappled-
: Errrr, ummmm, no :) .... How would grappling someone prevent them from
: thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
: completely forgotten how to add 2+2!" ... gimme a break.
Okay, well, this is going to depend on your take on working
magick, but I see changing the face of reality to be at least slightly
more complex mentally than adding 2+2. So here are some examples of doing
simple (but not that simple :) mental actions and having a difficult time
completing them because of what someone else is doing to you;
Counting out cards (1..2..3..4..5..) while someone yells "5! 42!
69! 4! 3! 2! 127!" etc.. in your ear.
Keeping track of a blackjack count while loud music is plaing...
...or while someone is talking to you...
...or while someone is putting you in a headlock...
Multiplying 432x8741 in your head while doing a waltz...
...while being swung around in a circle by your feet...
...while someone yells "5! 42! etc.." in your ear...
Reciting a memorized poem while someone keeps a steady
conversation going with you- especially if they ask you
lots of questions and keep referring to you by name...
...or singing in your ear...
...or swinging you by your feet, etc...
There are lots of occasions where doing some mental activity is
very difficult if not impossible because of distractions. If that is not
enough, also remember that;
1. the mage is trying to warp the laws of reality. How does that
compare in difficulty to adding numbers? To my mind, changing reality is
more difficult (Just MHO, though). Anyone can learn to count cards, but
only 1/10,000 or whatever can become mages.
2. All of the the above examples have people doing
somewhat non-violent distractions. Replace the "shouting in your ear" and
so on with "Andre the Giant trying to snap your neck," or even worse, "a
9-foot tall wolfman trying to rip your arm off and snack on it" and your
mental action gets more difficult still- again, IMHO.
: I can't see ANY justification for losing mental actions just because you
: got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
: plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
Who said anything about not thinking? I just said not performing
an action. Even so, get out on a mat with a wrestler and see how well you
can concentrate on high philosophy, math, poetry or what have you. It
*is* hard to think when you are in such a situation- or at least to think
about anything but the wrestling.
You can indeed say that magick is so simple as to be impossible to
stop, in terms of concentration. If that is how you wish to play it. But
there are certainly arguments which would allow a grapple attack to
prevent magick use. To say that there is no way that grappling can stop a
purely mental action is to ignore some very obvious, real-life counter
examples.
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <4u4jsp$h...@news.campus.mci.net>,
visitan...@sierra.campus.mci.net (Visitant) wrote:
> kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
> > Sons of Ether and (especially) Virtual Adepts would be toast, though.
>
> Ah, but only if you were foolish enough not to have readied
> a neurotronic scanner to operate attuned on your sigma wave
> emissions or worn a galvonic-kirlian sensor vest.
> Don't forget expanding reactive armor (effectively acting
> as airbags in crash situations as well).
>
> Of course, VA's have their optic trackers, twitch sensors,
> SQUIDS, voice recognition, and subdermals as I/O devices....
> Jeez, what were you expecting, a powerglove? ;)
>
> (Even omitting most actual "cyberware", there's still the
> potential for some very subtle input devices out; especially
> true if they're actually previously enacted Correspondence,
> Forces, or Mind effects.)
Good point, sir. What WAS I thinking? I must admit to underestimating
the potential power of Science and Eliteness. I must have simply been
creatively impaired when I made such disparaging comments about our
Tecknomantic friends. All apologies.
K.
SEAN TIMPA
In article <4ttvto$9...@oolong.memphis.edu> Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org> writes:
> - Use Correspondence to send said vampire away. (Corr 4)
> - Use Entropy to delete the thought in the vampire's mind that he ever
>wanted to feed off said mage. (Entropy 5)
> - Use Forces 6 (!!!) to make the vampire go flying halfway across the world,
>or just make the vampire disintegrate (concentrated sun blast).
How about a simple: (Forces 3) and create an illusory fire and watch it
scramble away in terror.
(Matter 3) and create some not-so-illusory white phosphorus...
etc...
-Sean.
Aerospace Web Admin
Marty Busse (mbu...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: In article <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
: Aerospace Web Admin <ae...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
: >Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: >: So while this great argument over what mages can do to vampires and vice
: >: versa rages, I just wanted to say that y'all might (stress *might*) be
: >: forgetting the brawl manouver "grapple." Regardless of who or what you
: >: are, if you win initiative and successfully grapple (a big if), your
: >: opponent looses their action for the round. Not their dodge. Not their
: >: magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
: >: circus, and as long as he keeps winning initiative and grappling, you are
: >: stuck. Which makes for great tag-team efforts, as you stop them from doing
: >: any offensive action and force them to go to defense (because if they
: >: don't, they lose their attack anyways most likely).
: >: Perhaps Sam Haight started out as just an excellent brawler with a
: >: friend.
: >Errrr, ummmm, no :) .... How would grappling someone prevent them from
: >thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
: >completely forgotten how to add 2+2!"
: Get put into a nasty chokehold sometime and see how your thought processes
: go.
: >... gimme a break. Arete is the one
: >stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
: >mental action.
: Again, try to do a surface integral while being choked. Difficult,
: isn't it?
Depends, if I practiced surface integrals every day of my life then no,
not at all, it would be second nature to me. Then again, who says magick
is /at all/ like doing surface integrals? FYI, I've got a friend who
COULD do surface integrals while being choked, he's that good at them
that he does 'em in his head in next to no time.
All the reasoning I see for not being able to magick while distracted is
pretty much irrelevant since the rules already say that injury or
physical incapacitation do NOT affect a Magi's ability to use magick. The
Arete Pool of a Mage is not affected by damage modifiers, period, and if
you don't believe that then re-read the book.
Think about what you're saying. If combat distractions totally negated
the ability to think then tactics would never have been born. Fighting
skill would still be at the level of kick and punch and the martial arts
would be useless in a fight cause it requires THINKING on some level.
Yah, you're not thinking about every aspect of your kick because you've
trained your body to know how to do it. The Mage has trained his mind to
do the same thing the martial artists body does.
And, don't tell /me/ to do surface integrals while being choked cause,
frankly, I suck at them, bad ... and I'm not a MAGE and I suspect either
is anyone else. So, in the end, it adds up to no one knowing exactly how
a Magi's mind works with Magick. Maybe it /is/ as easy as thinking about
doing something. Who knows. Yah, you can get distracted ... but if you're
gonna apply distraction to a Mage working magick you should ALSO apply it
to the Garou/Vamp who's tossing off 10 punches or kicks per round. If you
don't wanna then leave the Mage alone cause you'll be implying a double
standard. I don't get distracted but you do.
IMO, lots of people love looking for ways to basically screw Mages out of
combat. Then again, the Akashic Brotherhood will quickly show you how
Magick works in combat if you think that a simple grapple or wound will
stop them cold.
Deathstalker
>One small flaw in your post. Mages clearly states that Mages can not
>use countermagick on Obfuscate. Based on what chapture nine says I'd rule
I disagree with that rule. Obfuscate is clearly stated in Vampire as a
manipulative power that modifies the person's mind - thus, if the mage knows
it's coming (as in, the vampire starts fading from sight using Vanish from
Mind's Eye), he should get a countermagick roll.
>that a mage could countermagick Dementation (used on him) but not
>Obtenebration.
Certain Obtenebration powers cause fun things to happen, like casuing arms
of shadow material to fling out. That's definitely bait for Forces, just as
certain Melpominee powers tend to be.
CJ
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) wrote:
>eley.edu> <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>:
>: I can't see ANY justification for losing mental actions just because you
>: got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
>: plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
>
> Who said anything about not thinking? I just said not performing
>an action. Even so, get out on a mat with a wrestler and see how well you
>can concentrate on high philosophy, math, poetry or what have you. It
>*is* hard to think when you are in such a situation- or at least to think
>about anything but the wrestling.
Hi, Eric, first off, let me say, I think your other posts are great.
BUT, this one wasn't so great. I know of some people, myself
included, that when engaged in physical activity, my mental self
becomes more active and it's easier for me to concentrate. I prefer
to think of things while I'm exercising. Maybe it's due to the
increased blood flow or something. But think about it. How many
times has someone come up with a great thought while showering? And
how many people go for a walk to think? Granted, these activities are
nothing like a "werewolf trying to rip your arm off and snack on it",
but you get the idea.
--
Blessed Be
CJ
CJ_LA on I.R.C. (Insomniacs Revolutionary Coalition)
http://www2.linknet.net/cyrus
cy...@linknet.net
"Everything is possible, including the impossible."
"Move over, Yahweh. I'm back!" - Ishtar, Queen of Heaven
"Visit the condom god before you visit the love goddess."
Marco
> > The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
> > action
> > has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire before he goes unconscious due
> > to
> > blood loss.
>
> Unless the mage has any rating at all in Life, in which case she can route
> the blood around the vampire-induced injury, keeping her blood, giving her
> lots of time to work nasty magick, and leaving the vamp unfulfilled.
Unless I'm mistaken, when a vampire starts feeding, the victim is helpless
with ecstasy. ie - there isn't much a mage can do, except enjoy
him/herself.
I can picture a vampire with celerity 3 or 4 jumping a mage and sinking
teeth before the mage ever has time to react.
Marco.
Robin Hildric Evans
David J.Hill writes:-
- stuff about grappling stopping actoins snipped -
>I can't see ANY justification for losing mental actions just because you
>got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
>plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
I can. Stand in a room, get your mate to bundle you. If
he does it properly, the most coherent thought you'll have
in the first three seconds is 'urgh', or maybe even 'Aieeegh'.
Alright, if you're an experienced judoka, aikidoka, wrestler (etc)
or street brawler you may react, but it'll be a use of past experience
and/or training. You don't think
' Aha, he's just grabbed my throat,so I shall execute a breaking
manuever and then use a hip throw to get the fiend to a safer
distance.'
Also, combat rounds are three to five seconds. Using a mental
action would preclude resisting the grapple. It would not be pretty.
What about the Kiss? I assume it works on Mages. Don't see
any reason why not. eg.
' Arrrgh, I'm been grappled!
Now, how does that countermagic go?
Look, will you stop biting my leg? I'm trying to do..
(dramatic pause for Mage ego to expound)
TRUE MAGICK!
(big drumroll and lightning flash)
Ohhh, that feels nice.....'
The point to Mages, as I see it, is that if they are jumped
by creatures who are good at fighting, they are in big
trouble. They need time and concentration to work
magic. Everyone has a weakness, or else it'd be no
fun. If vamps can't cause Mages problems, in some
shape or form, there'd be less vamps with much less
influence. I'm not saying all Mages are bad at fighting,
and could never win, but they're not geared to it.
I shall now retire, donning asbestos clothing.
Cheers, Rob.
Eric Robert Sylwester
Deathstalker (pchi...@cyberspace.org) wrote:
: >One small flaw in your post. Mages clearly states that Mages can not
: >use countermagick on Obfuscate. Based on what chapture nine says I'd rule
: I disagree with that rule. Obfuscate is clearly stated in Vampire as a
: manipulative power that modifies the person's mind - thus, if the mage knows
: it's coming (as in, the vampire starts fading from sight using Vanish from
: Mind's Eye), he should get a countermagick roll.
Well, in another post you said "why bother arguing the powers of
these beings and the metaphysics if the rules are more important?"
These are related. I want to answer you with another question:
If you will only accept the rules in the WW game which support your
arguments, and reject the ones you don't like, how do you expect to
convince anyone that your opinion is supported by the rules?
If we don't agree to use the same set of rules in our discussion,
aren't we just telling each other our opinions? If you tell me that in
your own game world, with you as ST, Archemages have no limits to their
abilities and can easily take out an antediluvian, well, my response is
"good for you!" But what does that mean for my game world? Nothing.
Without a set of rules that we all agree to use- at least for our
net discussions- how can you even define "powerful being?" Everyone
agrees that archmages are powerful *NOT* because a particular set of house
rules makes them so, but because the standard storyteller rules, as
written down, makes them so. If you say that mages kick vampire butt (a
perfectly valid opinion), you are going to have to convince me based on
the written storyteller rules. Telling me that you allow obfuscate to be
countered, and so mages are more powerful, is circular. Your mages are
more powerful because you allow them to counter vampire disciplines- a
house rule, at least in this case, *NOT* a standard rule.
It's Wittgenstein, man. Can't *have* a game without an
agreed-upon set of rules. You just got two kids going "I shot you" "You
missed" "No I didn't" "Yes you did" and so on ad nauseum.
theodore kohler
Marco (mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu) wrote:
: > > The mage by spending a willpower a round to take
: Marco.
Tremere uses Theft of Vitae and poor little mage loses half his blood and
faints. Given the mage definitly gets countermagic against it. *shrug*
T.J.
Robert Mayberry
This brings up a good point. Most mages are nearly helpless without
foci. THis includes the long chants in latin, sleepless nights of
programming, prayers and religious ceremonies, and orgies that allow a
mage to use magic. While many could slip off a few effects, vampires are
not slouches themselves. Just a few levels of Celerity, Potence,
Obfuscate or others makes them potent adversaries. The vampire kills or
maims the mage while he's still fumbling for his magic wand. Other
powers, like Dominate, Presence, and Thaumaturgy, can be defeated (with
some difficulty; again, remember foci) but present tough obstacles to the
willworker. Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel. Magi come into their own when
they have suprise, sunlight and strategy on their side. Caught
themselves, they are just as vulnerable to attack.
Also, most of these contests are between neonates and accomplished magi.
Frankly, even the neonates (having been kindred for up to a hundred
years) are richer in abilities and wisdom than the whippersnappers. A
vampire elder isn't dangerous just because he is rich in supernatural
power (the mages will always exceed him in that). He is formidable
because he's seen it all before, and is clever and wise enough to
outsmart the mage. This is why die pools of eight and up are common for
the Kindred, and should be very rare for other supernaturals. High stats
are where the Vampire's real power comes from, not good disciplines.
It's why the Tremere are only third in the Camarilla. They have plenty
of elders, but few real methuselahs. Other clans may not have
Thaumaturgy, but they do have elders who were ancient when Tremere and
Augustus Giovanni existed only in the lusts of their ancestors.
Rob
Francessca di Gabrielle
Eric Robert Sylwester wrote:
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> If we don't agree to use the same set of rules in our discussion,
> aren't we just telling each other our opinions? If you tell me that in
> your own game world, with you as ST, Archemages have no limits to their
> abilities and can easily take out an antediluvian, well, my response is
> "good for you!" But what does that mean for my game world? Nothing.
> Without a set of rules that we all agree to use- at least for our
> net discussions- how can you even define "powerful being?" Everyone
> agrees that archmages are powerful *NOT* because a particular set of house
> rules makes them so, but because the standard storyteller rules, as
> written down, makes them so. If you say that mages kick vampire butt (a
> perfectly valid opinion), you are going to have to convince me based on
> the written storyteller rules. Telling me that you allow obfuscate to be
> countered, and so mages are more powerful, is circular. Your mages are
> more powerful because you allow them to counter vampire disciplines- a
> house rule, at least in this case, *NOT* a standard rule.
> It's Wittgenstein, man. Can't *have* a game without an
> agreed-upon set of rules. You just got two kids going "I shot you" "You
> missed" "No I didn't" "Yes you did" and so on ad nauseum.
For the most part, I agree with you - we do need a common basis for discussion.
However, I think it is perfectly valid for someone to say "I don't like this rule
and this is why." You are right that it may leave lead to "am not, am too" style
discussions, but it may also allow people to see a different way of interpreting the
rules, a way that satifies them and their game better. I fully intend to continue
posting my house rules, if I think they are relevant to the discussion, and
identifying them as such and stating why I use that rule. I hope that others do the
same.
While I cannot think of a strong example right now, I know there are cases where WW
rules seem to contradict themselves. We must be able to discuss those contradictions
and what was "truly" meant or how we chose to interpret them. It seems to me that
that is what Deathstalker was attempting to do (as well as provide support for
mages).
Kellie
James McPherson
Marco (mcav...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu) wrote:
: Unless I'm mistaken, when a vampire starts feeding, the victim is helpless
: with ecstasy. ie - there isn't much a mage can do, except enjoy
: him/herself.
As the first person stated, you can spend willpower to act through the
embrace. (I also had the belief that you could make a willpower roll to
resist the sensations)
And, as one of many supernaturals, I think that Mind would allow you to
override the sensations and act anyway, with a roll of course. (CoX are at
near sensory-overload all the time by choice. They seem to function just fine
in their own odd little way)
: I can picture a vampire with celerity 3 or 4 jumping a mage and sinking
: teeth before the mage ever has time to react.
Mage could have several ways to react: Mind 1 to deal with the situation,
Time 2+ to sense danger or react quickly, Life 2(3?)+ to reflexively seal
the wound.
My favorite stunt to use against Embracing Vampires is to spend the
Willpower point (What, you wanna die?) and use Prime:3 to suck the
Quintessence (read blood points) out of the vamp, sending him into torpor.
--
Kilroy
MynstiomN
Kig Mat'Zo Mat
http://www.ntr.net/~kilroy
Kellie Patrick-Getty
CJ wrote:
>
> hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) wrote:
>
> >eley.edu> <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>:
> >: got grappled. I'm pretty sure they mean physical actions cause it's just
> >: plain silly to say you can't think while being grappled.
> >
> >an action. Even so, get out on a mat with a wrestler and see how well you
> >can concentrate on high philosophy, math, poetry or what have you. It
> >*is* hard to think when you are in such a situation- or at least to think
> >about anything but the wrestling.
>
> Hi, Eric, first off, let me say, I think your other posts are great.
> BUT, this one wasn't so great. I know of some people, myself
> included, that when engaged in physical activity, my mental self
> becomes more active and it's easier for me to concentrate. I prefer
> to think of things while I'm exercising. Maybe it's due to the
> increased blood flow or something. But think about it. How many
> times has someone come up with a great thought while showering? And
> how many people go for a walk to think? Granted, these activities are
> nothing like a "werewolf trying to rip your arm off and snack on it",
> but you get the idea.
I do not think your examples are even in the ballpark of the stresses and
difficuly in thinking in a "fight-or-flight" situation. Engaged in physical
activity is not engaged in combat. Taking a walk, showering, even exercise
(specifically when it is a repetitive activity you are doing more or less by
yourself - weightlifting, aerobics, stretching, running etc) are typically
activities that take little thought to accomplish, freeing the mind to think
about other subjects. In fact, some research indicates that these kind of
activities allow ideas that have been perculating in the subconscious to come to
the conscious mind.
If the mage in question had prepared himself to face a vampire attack (I believe
in this thread the attack is grapple), he would at least have a chance to get use
magick. A similar case would be a woman who has either attended a rape-prevention
class or who has thought what her actions would be in case of rape, when attacked
she is likely to respond while a woman who has not thought about it is likely to
panic/freeze (I know that this is not true in all cases, so please do not send me
counter-examples. This is a generalization.) A second case comes from survivors
of plane crashes. In most instances, investigators have found that survivors
either planned their escape and reactions prior to take-off or that they were
aided by someone who had.
Kellie
Damon Stone
In <4u5dvg$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca> 's post, ae...@acs.ryerson.ca says...
>
>Marty Busse (mbu...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
>: Aerospace Web Admin <ae...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>: >Errrr, ummmm, no :) .... How would grappling someone prevent them from
>: >thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
>: >completely forgotten how to add 2+2!"
>
>: Get put into a nasty chokehold sometime and see how your thought processes
>: go.
>
>: >... gimme a break. Arete is the one
>: >stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
>: >mental action.
>
>: Again, try to do a surface integral while being choked. Difficult,
>: isn't it?
>
>Depends, if I practiced surface integrals every day of my life then no,
>not at all, it would be second nature to me. Then again, who says magick
>is /at all/ like doing surface integrals? FYI, I've got a friend who
>COULD do surface integrals while being choked, he's that good at them
>that he does 'em in his head in next to no time.
>
people) It really depends on not so much how familiar they are with doing the
action itself but how familiar they are with having the action done TO them (in
this case a choke or other form of grapple. Anything that takes cognitive
thinking (and lets face it just about everything concerning vampires and mages
takes cognitive thought, unless they are mauraders or Malkavians, in which case
it generally is up to the storyteller to play out the form subconcious effects
since you have no control over them) is going to be SEVERELY hampered by the
sudden influx of unusual stimuli. Thats what the game rules are simulating. You
breathe oxygen every day of your life right? If I choke you, your going to have
problems. Even in regular stressful situations it is very common for people to
stop breathing until the situation is over or the need for air becomes great
enough for them to "remember" and strt breathing again.
>All the reasoning I see for not being able to magick while distracted is
>pretty much irrelevant since the rules already say that injury or
>physical incapacitation do NOT affect a Magi's ability to use magick. The
>Arete Pool of a Mage is not affected by damage modifiers, period, and if
>you don't believe that then re-read the book.
>
I have and do. What we are talking about doesn't apply however since they lose
the action required not the ability to use magick.
>Think about what you're saying. If combat distractions totally negated
>the ability to think then tactics would never have been born. Fighting
>skill would still be at the level of kick and punch and the martial arts
>would be useless in a fight cause it requires THINKING on some level.
>Yah, you're not thinking about every aspect of your kick because you've
>trained your body to know how to do it. The Mage has trained his mind to
>do the same thing the martial artists body does.
>
I don't think that is a very accurate anology. The body can be trained to react
to stimuli without requiring thought. The mind does not really work that way.
If they are going to avoide paradox it takes a conscious effert to work it into
their paradim and static reality. Since even channeling the raw force of magick
takes a conscious effort unless one is a muarader or a special orphan no magick
is possible without forming a detailed thought.
>And, don't tell /me/ to do surface integrals while being choked cause,
>frankly, I suck at them, bad ... and I'm not a MAGE and I suspect either
>is anyone else. So, in the end, it adds up to no one knowing exactly how
>a Magi's mind works with Magick. Maybe it /is/ as easy as thinking about
>doing something. Who knows. Yah, you can get distracted ... but if you're
>gonna apply distraction to a Mage working magick you should ALSO apply it
>to the Garou/Vamp who's tossing off 10 punches or kicks per round. If you
>don't wanna then leave the Mage alone cause you'll be implying a double
>standard. I don't get distracted but you do.
>
You're absolutely right, distraction does work both ways. A denied action is a
denied action, your character sits there with a thumb up his nose and picking
lint out of his belly button no matter what "species" they belong to.
>IMO, lots of people love looking for ways to basically screw Mages out of
>combat. Then again, the Akashic Brotherhood will quickly show you how
>Magick works in combat if you think that a simple grapple or wound will
>stop them cold.
It will simple as that. As long as you keep winning initiative and continue to
grapple. AB's power comes in because when they are played by an intelligent
player avoid conflct for a turn until they use a wonderful little rote that
will let them discern their opponents fighting style. Grappling huh? Well let
me stay back here and fiddle with correspondence and OW! Damn getting kicked in
the head from four different directions sure hurts don' it, Not to mention damn
hard to grab. :)
Deathstalker
In article <4u89tk$u...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>, ssk...@elux3.cs.umass.edu (SVEN
SKOOG e) writes:
>Well, if you follow the Mage school of thought (which not everyone in
>the WoD does), this is exactly what's stated in the Book of Shadows
Yeah. I combine some of the best "theories" from the books, but I have a
serious bias towards Mage (which, IMHO, has the most logical theories with the
most backup). Still, the viral Avatar concept is a bit odd. But then again,
saying that they're owned by the Wyrm isn't exactly much better. ;)
Deathstalker
In article <4u7p8j$7...@ha1.ntr.net>, kil...@ntr.net (James McPherson) writes:
>the simple fact is that the vampire's body is made up of matter. And for
>this reason Rubbing of the Bones affects kindred, magi, garou,
It's a simple Prime 2 rote. It screws up the Quintessence flow inside the
target and makes it suffer extreme pain. Generally, targeting hand grenades and
breakfast cereals doesn't do much, however. ;)
Deathstalker
In article <4u83n3$f...@agate.berkeley.edu>, hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric
Robert Sylwester) writes:
> Well, in another post you said "why bother arguing the powers of
>these beings and the metaphysics if the rules are more important?"
Sarcasm, sarcasm...
>If you will only accept the rules in the WW game which support your
>arguments, and reject the ones you don't like, how do you expect to
>convince anyone that your opinion is supported by the rules?
Which set of rules? If your opinion is supported by any of the rules, it has
support. White Wolf makes no pretense about making any one set of rules
"exactly correct."
> If we don't agree to use the same set of rules in our discussion,
>aren't we just telling each other our opinions? If you tell me that in
>your own game world, with you as ST, Archemages have no limits to their
Archmagi do have limits to their abilities. Consult Horizon: The Stronghold
of Hope. And yes, we are just explaining our opinions, maybe in the hope that
people will take the ideas and consider them.
> Without a set of rules that we all agree to use- at least for our
>net discussions- how can you even define "powerful being?" Everyone
You can't. The purpose of any discussion is to describe why, perhaps,
someone might need to rethink their ideas from the experience of other STs.
>written down, makes them so. If you say that mages kick vampire butt (a
>perfectly valid opinion), you are going to have to convince me based on
>the written storyteller rules. Telling me that you allow obfuscate to be
I can. Note Forces 3/Prime 2, available to a starting mage. Note 3 dots in
disciplines for a vampire. Starting magi, with flaws, can have an Arete of 4.
Burn 3 Quintessence, a point of Willpower, and you can theoretically have five
successes on the roll. 5x3 is 15 damage. Use it to make fire and it's
aggravated and can only be soaked with Fortitude. Thus, neonate dies. Go for
Life 3/Matter 3 (Verbena/SOE/Hollow One/Orphan) and you can use Rip the
Man-Body and score aggravated damage without making fire.
>more powerful because you allow them to counter vampire disciplines- a
>house rule, at least in this case, *NOT* a standard rule.
Countering certain vampiric disciplines is in the Mage 2 book, thank you.
The only house rule I have about it is that mages can counter Obfuscate, which
is pretty obvious if you read Vampire, then read Mage.
CHILTON RICHARD G
In article <4u6g3m$b...@oolong.memphis.edu> Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org> writes:
>From: Deathstalker <pchi...@cyberspace.org>
>Subject: Re: Vampires Muching a Mage
>In article <w5mx.1....@unbsj.ca>, w5...@unbsj.ca writes:
>>One small flaw in your post. Mages clearly states that Mages can not
>>use countermagick on Obfuscate. Based on what chapture nine says I'd rule
> I disagree with that rule. Obfuscate is clearly stated in Vampire as a
>manipulative power that modifies the person's mind - thus, if the mage knows
>it's coming (as in, the vampire starts fading from sight using Vanish from
>Mind's Eye), he should get a countermagick roll.
Well, if you want a house rule, fine, but the rule clearly states Obfucate
does not get countermagicked. Mind's Eye is based on Vampire but uses a
system of rules. The two games influance each other but the rules do
interact well. Obfuscate (table top) isn't Obfuscate (LARP). The effect is
immendiate.
>>that a mage could countermagick Dementation (used on him) but not
>>Obtenebration.
> Certain Obtenebration powers cause fun things to happen, like casuing arms
>of shadow material to fling out. That's definitely bait for Forces, just as
>certain Melpominee powers tend to be.
Obtenebration just allows the natural powers of the abyss to enter the
living lands. Oblivion pays a little visit to our world. Spectors arrive
as shadows. Maybe Spirit could cause an effect to counter this but you can't
countermagick this any more that you can countermagick a Wriath.
Richard
Damon Stone
There seem to be alot of misunderstanding in the ways the various supernatural
entities operate. Not just here but *gasp* out there to (actually I know alot
of people that constantly complain about the loup-garou and benefits of rage
and what a killing machine they make. I always draw the time honored (and
horable nonetheless) comparison to the classes of that little game that so many
people got their start at (well that is a redeming quality, sort of) D&D. A
mage at medium or higher levels is nigh invincible, from a long way off.
Someone of equal power up close is likely to turn them into mince-meat.
Vampires are like thiefs or assassins, great if they have surprise or can
manipulate behind the scenes but just can't go toe to toe against an armed
fighter. Werewolves of course are the fighter types, king in hand to hand
combat but they lack alot when it comes down to operating in the other areas.
This of course is just a rough comparison but it holds pretty true. A vampire
operates best in either guerilla warfare tatics using a quick attack and
running away before there imortality comes to the test, or as behind the scene
manipulators, taking decades to achieve their goals simply outliving most of
their enemies external, and raising political forces to deal with their enemies
internal. Mages have the ability to manipulate reality itself. It requires a
little time and a great deal of mental gymnastics but nearly anything is
possible, provided that they have a safe base of operations, hence chantries
and horizen realms. Trying to match the two in a fight were physical skills are
going to come into play is like taking a gymnast and swimmer, both world class
athletes in there sports and telling them to run a 800m footrace. There skills
will help alot but since neither is operating in their forte it will depend
completely on how they trained before. Is the vampire a toreador or brujah,
Their abilities transfer more into the physical side, However if the mage is a
Akashic brother, or Euthanatos then it will be nearly even again assuming that
they are on the same "level" as far as point spread goes.
Savant
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.
Marty Busse
In article <4u5dvg$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
Aerospace Web Admin <ae...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>Marty Busse (mbu...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: In article <4tvr25$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
>: Aerospace Web Admin <ae...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>: >: So while this great argument over what mages can do to vampires and vice
>: >: versa rages, I just wanted to say that y'all might (stress *might*) be
>: >: forgetting the brawl manouver "grapple." Regardless of who or what you
>: >: are, if you win initiative and successfully grapple (a big if), your
>: >: opponent looses their action for the round. Not their dodge. Not their
>: >: attack, not their physical action- their *action*. Using Arete for a
>: >: magick effect is an *action*. As is discipline use. So you lose it if
>: >: you are successfully grappled- it can be Joe sleeper wrestler from the
>: >: circus, and as long as he keeps winning initiative and grappling, you are
>: >: stuck. Which makes for great tag-team efforts, as you stop them from doing
>: >: any offensive action and force them to go to defense (because if they
>: >: don't, they lose their attack anyways most likely).
>: >: Perhaps Sam Haight started out as just an excellent brawler with a
>: >: friend.
>: >
>: >thinking? I mean, that's plain silly. "Gah! He's grabbed me? I've
>: >completely forgotten how to add 2+2!"
>
>: Get put into a nasty chokehold sometime and see how your thought processes
>: go.
>
>: >... gimme a break. Arete is the one
>: >stat that isn't affected by damage modifiers since it's mostly a purely
>: >mental action.
>
>: Again, try to do a surface integral while being choked. Difficult,
>: isn't it?
>
>Depends, if I practiced surface integrals every day of my life then no,
>not at all, it would be second nature to me. Then again, who says magick
>is /at all/ like doing surface integrals?
Just an example: magick is an intellectual exercise, n'est-ce pas? Doing
surface integrals was the first thing that popped into my head as an
example.
>FYI, I've got a friend who
>COULD do surface integrals while being choked, he's that good at them
>that he does 'em in his head in next to no time.
>
Try choking him. Loose rabid dobermen pinschers on him and see if he solves
them while escaping injury. We're talking about deadly combat here:
Bud Brujah is breaking your neck. THis is a major distraction.
>All the reasoning I see for not being able to magick while distracted is
>pretty much irrelevant since the rules already say that injury or
>physical incapacitation do NOT affect a Magi's ability to use magick. The
>Arete Pool of a Mage is not affected by damage modifiers, period, and if
>you don't believe that then re-read the book.
>
>Think about what you're saying. If combat distractions totally negated
>the ability to think then tactics would never have been born. Fighting
>skill would still be at the level of kick and punch and the martial arts
>would be useless in a fight cause it requires THINKING on some level.
The example was specifically while being grappled. I have no problem
with someone thinking a counter to the move ("there are seven possible
defenses to this...one hurts!") but we're talking about magic.
>Yah, you're not thinking about every aspect of your kick because you've
>trained your body to know how to do it. The Mage has trained his mind to
>do the same thing the martial artists body does.
>
>And, don't tell /me/ to do surface integrals while being choked cause,
>frankly, I suck at them, bad ... and I'm not a MAGE and I suspect either
>is anyone else. So, in the end, it adds up to no one knowing exactly how
>a Magi's mind works with Magick. Maybe it /is/ as easy as thinking about
>doing something. Who knows. Yah, you can get distracted ... but if you're
>gonna apply distraction to a Mage working magick you should ALSO apply it
>to the Garou/Vamp who's tossing off 10 punches or kicks per round.
By all means rules should apply to all. However, Garou and Vamps tend to be in
HTH combat more than most mages.
>If you
>don't wanna then leave the Mage alone cause you'll be implying a double
>standard. I don't get distracted but you do.
>
>IMO, lots of people love looking for ways to basically screw Mages out of
>combat. Then again, the Akashic Brotherhood will quickly show you how
>Magick works in combat if you think that a simple grapple or wound will
>stop them cold.
>
They're the tough bastards, that's for sure.
It's not so much screwing Mages out of combat as making them less than
omnipotent. I personally think Mages are too damn powerful: by some of the
rules interpetations given in this thread, a fairly low level mage could
simply shrug off attacks by a Methusaleh or Antideluvian. This is not
realistic. Baba Yaga will munch Mark Magus everytime.
Of course, there are those even more powerful than she is.....
>
> /> David J. Hill "The important things is not to
> /< ae...@acs.ryerson.ca stop questioning" - Albert Einstein
> [\\\\\\(O):::<=====================-
> \< Aerospace "All things considered, insanity
> \> Engineering may be the only reasonable alternative"
>
priss
>> > The mage by spending a willpower a round to take action has maybe 2 rounds to take out the vampire
before he goes unconscious due to blood loss.
>>
>> Unless the mage has any rating at all in Life, in which case she can route
>> the blood around the vampire-induced injury, keeping her blood, giving her
>> lots of time to work nasty magick, and leaving the vamp unfulfilled.
>
>Unless I'm mistaken, when a vampire starts feeding, the victim is helpless
>with ecstasy. ie - there isn't much a mage can do, except enjoy
>him/herself.
>
>I can picture a vampire with celerity 3 or 4 jumping a mage and sinking
>teeth before the mage ever has time to react.
>
>
>Marco.
>
Not to burst your bubble about this fast vampire thing - mages have Intuition as a Talent for a reason. I
doubt any vampire with ill intent can get the drop on most mages. (A few idiots, but that's like all these
"can't fight" Garou I've been running into lately.)
Priss' Odd Friend.
Darksteel Sword
Techno-Destructo (r...@aclcb.purdue.edu) wrote:
: > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
: this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
: the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
: becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
Umm. Do you think Vampires don't have quintessence in them?
Have you read mage?
priss
>kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
>>Another way a mage could evade a vampire: Forces 2: Make the vampire
>>frictionless. No grabbing, no walking, no flying, no feeding: Big mean
>>vampiew faww down, go boom. This could be made coincidental (especially
>>by a Son of Ether) by squirting the vampire with Slip-Rex: The King of
>>Lubricants !
>This brings up a good point. Most mages are nearly helpless without
foci. THis includes the long chants in latin, sleepless nights of
programming, prayers and religious ceremonies, and orgies that allow a mage to use magic. While many could
slip off a few effects, vampires are >not slouches themselves. Just a few levels of Celerity, Potence,
Obfuscate or others makes them potent adversaries. The vampire kills or
maims the mage while he's still fumbling for his magic wand. Other
powers, like Dominate, Presence, and Thaumaturgy, can be defeated (with
some difficulty; again, remember foci) but present tough obstacles to the
willworker. Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel. Magi come into their own when
they have suprise, sunlight and strategy on their side. Caught
themselves, they are just as vulnerable to attack.
>Also, most of these contests are between neonates and accomplished magi.
Frankly, even the neonates (having been kindred for up to a hundred
years) are richer in abilities and wisdom than the whippersnappers. A >vampire elder isn't dangerous just
because he is rich in supernatural >power (the mages will always exceed him in that). He is formidable
because he's seen it all before, and is clever and wise enough to
outsmart the mage. This is why die pools of eight and up are common for
the Kindred, and should be very rare for other supernaturals. High stats
are where the Vampire's real power comes from, not good disciplines. >It's why the Tremere are only third in
the Camarilla. They have plenty
of elders, but few real methuselahs. Other clans may not have >Thaumaturgy, but they do have elders who were
ancient when Tremere and
Actualy, any newly graduated disciple can have the power to generate a devastating Fireball (Forces 3 and
Prime 2 are both within the power of a beginning mage), or a simple Stunning type spell. And, trust me, if
you are a mage who can do these, you can do them quickly!! Also, given a choice between Paradox or Death,
even the most hardcore Technocrat will take their chances with Paradox. (Also, see my earlier comment about
the Intuition Talent) Good luck Dead Boys.
Priss' Odd Friend
>
James McPherson
Robert Mayberry (tanz...@lunar.eclipse.net) wrote:
: This brings up a good point. Most mages are nearly helpless without
: programming, prayers and religious ceremonies, and orgies that allow a
: mage to use magic. While many could slip off a few effects, vampires are
: not slouches themselves.
Yah, but they get to shed foci. A typical mage has two or three spheres
that they don't need to use foci for. Many 1st ed mages (with the high
arete levels) need very few, if any, foci.
: Just a few levels of Celerity, Potence,
: Obfuscate or others makes them potent adversaries.
And by the same token, only a few levels in life, entropy, prime or
others makes them potent adversaries. (Just life:3 will let a mage get
Potence, Fortitude, Celerity, and healing all by itself.)
:The vampire kills or
: maims the mage while he's still fumbling for his magic wand. Other
: powers, like Dominate, Presence, and Thaumaturgy, can be defeated (with
: some difficulty; again, remember foci) but present tough obstacles to the
: willworker.
Countermagicks do not require the foci to my knowledge.
: Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
: trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel.
Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
Magi come into their own when
: they have suprise, sunlight and strategy on their side. Caught
: themselves, they are just as vulnerable to attack....
....As any other of the supernatural species.
: Also, most of these contests are between neonates and accomplished magi.
: Frankly, even the neonates (having been kindred for up to a hundred
: years) are richer in abilities and wisdom than the whippersnappers.
Eh. Mages tend to be more aware of the fundamentals of reality, if not
human society. (Hence the Arete) Mages also have inherently higher
willpowers than kindred.
A
: vampire elder isn't dangerous just because he is rich in supernatural
: power (the mages will always exceed him in that). He is formidable
: because he's seen it all before, and is clever and wise enough to
: outsmart the mage.
Only way a leech has seen it all is if he's been involved in a mage-war.
This means he's from the Mythic Age (and well over 500 years old) or got
caught in the crossfire.
And magi elders tend to be centuries old and there are archmagi
floating around from Mesopytamia. (Classic rumor is that Able was one of
the first Verbana...)
: This is why die pools of eight and up are common for
: the Kindred, and should be very rare for other supernaturals. High stats
: are where the Vampire's real power comes from, not good disciplines.
Garou tend to have 8+ dice for combat and 6+ dice for special things.
Mage's have skills that only the rarest Kindred will ever hear of.
Kindred's real power comes from subtlety and control of humanity, not raw
power.
Visitant
Umm. According to the description, it operates on Life Patterns.
It places great emphasis on the fact that it affects the /flow/
of Quintessence /through/ a Life Pattern; Matter Patterns do not
have Quintessence in the form of a stream (IIRC, it pools within
them, giving them a rather static nature when compared to Life
Patterns). This is from the first edition, but unless it
specifically changes this in the second, I would apply it.
Vampires have Quintessence in them, but not necessarilly flowing
through them; back in the first edition, they definately would
not. That Life and Matter are required to affect them usually
makes it harder to affect them with something that only applies
only to living things; in this case, I don't know.
Unless the second edition makes a deifinitive change,
the "Have you read Mage?" comment was either unwarranted,
more applicable to yourself, or a combination of the two.
vis
(today I finally order the second ed,
so I can stop with the disclaimers ;)
verkuilen john v
kil...@ntr.net (James McPherson) writes:
>Robert Mayberry (tanz...@lunar.eclipse.net) wrote:
>: This brings up a good point. Most mages are nearly helpless without
>: foci. THis includes the long chants in latin, sleepless nights of
>: programming, prayers and religious ceremonies, and orgies that allow a
>: mage to use magic. While many could slip off a few effects, vampires are
>: not slouches themselves.
>Yah, but they get to shed foci. A typical mage has two or three spheres
>that they don't need to use foci for. Many 1st ed mages (with the high
>arete levels) need very few, if any, foci.
Mages choose how they shed foci very carefully. Hopefully their foci are
also reasonable, but it's hard to say. Best to shed them in order of most
cumbersome to least. For instance, my Akashic character Pang Yin/Elisabeta de
Lucia (she's half Portuguese/half Chinese from Macao but currently lives in
Houston) has shed foci in mind, entropy, forces, and prime, which are her
mainstay spheres. Some of these require annoying foci, like purification.
Normally she uses the foci, but it's nice not to have to. Verbena should
definitely learn to lose the cauldron early on.
>: Just a few levels of Celerity, Potence,
>: Obfuscate or others makes them potent adversaries.
>And by the same token, only a few levels in life, entropy, prime or
>others makes them potent adversaries. (Just life:3 will let a mage get
>Potence, Fortitude, Celerity, and healing all by itself.)
The real advantage a vamp has is the ability to go down and come back
up again. A mage has only the base health levels, and any damage after
incapacitated is death. Also, life:3 does not allow Potence, Fortitude, or
Celerity. One can increase one's physical scores like a vamp burining blood,
but the auto successes and extra actions do not come from Life:3. Mind 1 and
Time 3 allow for Celerity-like extra actions, however.
>:The vampire kills or
>: maims the mage while he's still fumbling for his magic wand. Other
>: powers, like Dominate, Presence, and Thaumaturgy, can be defeated (with
>: some difficulty; again, remember foci) but present tough obstacles to the
>: willworker.
>Countermagicks do not require the foci to my knowledge.
Not that I recall either.
>: Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
>: trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel.
>Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
>of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
Well, more like an Adept or Master Akashic or Euthanatos. I'm playing a
Disciple Akashic in a vampire crossover, and while Elisabeta could easily
take out most neonates with, say, Forces 3, she'd be really hard pressed
in physical combat. It's best to stay away and use Prime-enchanted arrows
augmented by Forces. Even a relatively young and weak vampire is dangerous
when they frenzy and have a full blood pool.
(Next session, when she develops Time 3, however, things will be different,
although the risks are still great.)
> Magi come into their own when
>: they have suprise, sunlight and strategy on their side. Caught
>: themselves, they are just as vulnerable to attack....
> ....As any other of the supernatural species.
I agree to a point. Most vampires are better prepared to handle things when
the shit hits the fan because they can soak up the initial surprise attack.
Maybe--my vampire character Frank Haas, who has a lot of Obfuscate and
Potence (but isn't a Nosferatu), has done in several relatively strong
vampires with one or two sneak attack punches. While these characters
weren't Gangrels, they certainly weren't pushovers.
>: Also, most of these contests are between neonates and accomplished magi.
>: Frankly, even the neonates (having been kindred for up to a hundred
>: years) are richer in abilities and wisdom than the whippersnappers.
>Eh. Mages tend to be more aware of the fundamentals of reality, if not
>human society. (Hence the Arete) Mages also have inherently higher
>willpowers than kindred.
Also, just because you've been around for a while doesn't mean you've become
more wise. Sometimes it might mean just the opposite. Remember, vampires
tend toward mental stasis.
> A
>: vampire elder isn't dangerous just because he is rich in supernatural
>: power (the mages will always exceed him in that). He is formidable
>: because he's seen it all before, and is clever and wise enough to
>: outsmart the mage.
The elder vampire could also simply choose to outwait his opponent....
>: This is why die pools of eight and up are common for
>: the Kindred, and should be very rare for other supernaturals. High stats
>: are where the Vampire's real power comes from, not good disciplines.
>Garou tend to have 8+ dice for combat and 6+ dice for special things.
>Mage's have skills that only the rarest Kindred will ever hear of.
>Kindred's real power comes from subtlety and control of humanity, not raw
>power.
I certainly agree that most mages won't have the really big die pools of
a kindred, but magick is--when handled intelligently and creatively--quite
a force.
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
James McPherson
Deathstalker (pchi...@cyberspace.org) wrote:
Read the rote. It actually causes the physical reality of the target to
vary. It's density, mass, etc. all vary. One moment the target might
weight equivelant to a small truck and the next have the density of air.
Thought is difficult and motion is nearly impossible (spend 1 willpower
for limited action). The bad part is that it is typically vulgar unless
you do it while in a cloud of teargas or something.
Damon Stone
In <4ueuvi$r...@uuneo.neosoft.com> 's post, hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com says...
>
>Techno-Destructo (r...@aclcb.purdue.edu) wrote:
>: > Prime: Rubbing the Bones
>: this would absoultely not work because it operates on the by distrupting
>: the quintessence that living creatures have through their pattern and
>: becuase this link is cut off when a person becomes a vampire it would fail.
>
>Umm. Do you think Vampires don't have quintessence in them?
>Have you read mage?
>
no quintessence=no thing
David Johnston
James McPherson
-> :The vampire kills or
-> : maims the mage while he's still fumbling for his magic wand. Other
-> : powers, like Dominate, Presence, and Thaumaturgy, can be defeated
-> (with : some difficulty; again, remember foci) but present tough
-> obstacles to the : willworker.
->
-> Countermagicks do not require the foci to my knowledge.
Examine page 175 of Mage II, where John Courage uses his focus in the
example of basic Countermagick. At the least, I'd increase the
difficulty on the roll for any Mage who uses unFocused countermagick in
a sphere that needs countermagick.
Deathstalker
In article <w5mx.670...@UNBSJ.CA>, w5...@UNBSJ.CA (CHILTON RICHARD G)
writes:
>Well, if you want a house rule, fine, but the rule clearly states Obfucate
>does not get countermagicked. Mind's Eye is based on Vampire but uses a
That's correct. Mage 2 clearly states that fact (stupid as it may be).
>interact well. Obfuscate (table top) isn't Obfuscate (LARP). The effect is
>immendiate.
Ahem. Vanish from Mind's Eye is Obfuscate 4 in tabletop. Read up on your
V:tM 2nd edition rules. Tabletop Obfuscate pales in comparison to LARP
Obfuscate.
>Obtenebration just allows the natural powers of the abyss to enter the
>living lands. Oblivion pays a little visit to our world. Spectors arrive
You are still moving things, right? Movement = Forces. Movement != Spirit.
Sure, the Abyss can run around all it wants, but if it is incapable of
producing force, it becomes somewhat impotent, correct?
>as shadows. Maybe Spirit could cause an effect to counter this but you can't
>countermagick this any more that you can countermagick a Wriath.
You can't necessarily "countermagick" a Wraith, but you sure as hell can
attack one just as you attack a spirit. Spirit 4 and Prime 4 will rip one to
shreds just like they will rip a spirit to shreds. As for "summoning the powers
of the abyss", it's simple to stop anything in corporeal form - "Gee, all your
kinetic energy is vanishing." Not necessarily countermagick, but a counter
effect that you can use on the next round.
Darksteel Sword
Visitant (visitan...@sierra.campus.mci.net) wrote:
: hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com (Darksteel Sword) wrote:
: > Umm. Do you think Vampires don't have quintessence in them?
: > Have you read mage?
: Umm. According to the description, it operates on Life Patterns.
: It places great emphasis on the fact that it affects the /flow/
: of Quintessence /through/ a Life Pattern; Matter Patterns do not
: have Quintessence in the form of a stream (IIRC, it pools within
: them, giving them a rather static nature when compared to Life
: Patterns). This is from the first edition, but unless it
: specifically changes this in the second, I would apply it.
: Vampires have Quintessence in them, but not necessarilly flowing
: through them; back in the first edition, they definately would
: not. That Life and Matter are required to affect them usually
: makes it harder to affect them with something that only applies
: only to living things; in this case, I don't know.
: Unless the second edition makes a deifinitive change,
: the "Have you read Mage?" comment was either unwarranted,
: more applicable to yourself, or a combination of the two.
Vampires can be affected by life.
Azrael
Visitant
hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com (Darksteel Sword) wrote:
> Visitant (visitan...@sierra.campus.mci.net) wrote:
[snip]
> : Vampires have Quintessence in them, but not necessarilly flowing
> : through them; back in the first edition, they definately would
> : not. That Life and Matter are required to affect them usually
> : makes it harder to affect them with something that only applies
> : only to living things; in this case, I don't know.
> Vampires can be affected by life.
Alone? I've got to get that second edition.... ;}
My point was this - I don't know whether the vampiric pattern
has Quintessesnce flowing through it (such as a Life Pattern,
which can be fluctuated through Rubbing the Bones) or pooled in
it (as with a Matter Pattern, I think, leaving it unaffected).
If the vampire had just fed, blood might still be a fading,
seperate, Life Pattern, and may be affected on its own. I don't
know; it would depend on how quickly it becomes Matter or Vitae.
> Azrael
Visitant
James McPherson
verkuilen john v (ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: kil...@ntr.net (James McPherson) writes:
: >And by the same token, only a few levels in life, entropy, prime or
: >others makes them potent adversaries. (Just life:3 will let a mage get
: >Potence, Fortitude, Celerity, and healing all by itself.)
: Also life:3 does not allow Potence, Fortitude...and the auto successes.
Not exactly, no. But it does boost stats (without limit!!!) and let you
do things that vampires can't, like heal multiple aggravated wounds,
: Also, life:3 does not allow ... Celerity.. extra actions do not come
from Life:3. Mind 1 and Time 3 allow for Celerity-like extra actions,
however.
Life:3 allows extra actions. What if you have the nervous system &
metabolism work twice as fast? Five times as fast? Is that not celerity?
('Course you have to worry about burning out, getting heatstroke, heart
failure, muscle strains, etc)
: >Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
: >of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
: Well, more like an Adept or Master Akashic or Euthanatos.
You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
SVEN SKOOG e
Darksteel Sword (hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com) wrote:
: Vampires can be affected by life.
Well, yeah, if you want to cause fungus to grow on them, or
maybe to ascertain that their hearts are NOT in fact beating...
but, in general, effects like 'I Rip your Man-Body,' or
'I cause you to age 200 years in 20 seconds,' or 'Your heart
stops' (not that this would screw a vampire much) require the
Sphere of Matter as well as, if not in place of, Life. The
'poof-you're-a-lawn-chair' magickal effect is a good example
of this; it uses Matter, not Life, as a vampire's Pattern is
inanimate (although, Paradoxically, still quasi-living).
I believe that "Azrael," while using First Edition Mage rules,
is still fundamentally correct; the relationship between
Life, Matter, and vampires is clarified in Second Edition, but
not substantially changed.
-- Sven
SVEN SKOOG e
SVEN SKOOG e (ssk...@elux3.cs.umass.edu) wrote:
: I believe that "Azrael," while using First Edition Mage rules...
^^^^^^^^^
|||||||||
Whoops! I misquoted.
Change that 'Azrael'
to 'Visitant.'
verkuilen john v
kil...@ntr.net (James McPherson) writes:
>verkuilen john v (ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: kil...@ntr.net (James McPherson) writes:
>: >And by the same token, only a few levels in life, entropy, prime or
>: >others makes them potent adversaries. (Just life:3 will let a mage get
>: >Potence, Fortitude, Celerity, and healing all by itself.)
>: Also life:3 does not allow Potence, Fortitude...and the auto successes.
>Not exactly, no. But it does boost stats (without limit!!!) and let you
>do things that vampires can't, like heal multiple aggravated wounds,
Although every point in the supernatural range starts risking _serious_
Paradox. Every aggravated wound is a paradox point. Every stat point above
5 is a paradox point.... (see the pattern? :) I agree Life 3 is potent,
though.
>: Also, life:3 does not allow ... Celerity.. extra actions do not come
>from Life:3. Mind 1 and Time 3 allow for Celerity-like extra actions,
>however.
>Life:3 allows extra actions. What if you have the nervous system &
>metabolism work twice as fast? Five times as fast? Is that not celerity?
>('Course you have to worry about burning out, getting heatstroke, heart
>failure, muscle strains, etc)
Yeah, I guess I'd allow that, but it would have to be harder than the extra
actions one gets from Time 3 (1 extra for each success above 2 on arete) or
Mind 1 (one extra action, "recursable" to more if you're willing to accept the
danger and can physically do the task). Obviously, in no case could these
effects allow for more than one exercise of magic per turn.
>: >Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
>: >of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
>: Well, more like an Adept or Master Akashic or Euthanatos.
>You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
>by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
>shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
It depends on the vamp. 8th or 9th generation ancilla are tough opponents,
while most 13th generation neonates would have a lot of trouble. If the
mage got the drop (always the big if for mages) most rank 3 spheres are
nasty. It's hard to say, though. Someone with, say, Entropy 3, would be
in trouble unless the situation worked in their favor. Someone with Forces 3
(and, of course, Prime 2) would definitely give vampires trouble, particularly
if they prepared appropriate foci and coincidences in advance. My disciple
Akashic was able to fry a 5th generation vampire with "Create Sunlight" and a
few magnesium flares (and lots of circumstance in her favor--normally this
would be kind of ridiculous, but the vamp didn't know it was coming and
thought he was protected against all kindred-supplied threats).
Let's see:
Correspondence 3: teleport away or bring something nasty here
Entropy 3: tough, but you could get "the random factors to align in your
favor" (to quote a novel)
Forces 3: with Prime 2 you can do some serious burning
Life 3: stuff mentioned above (but no Rip the Man Body)
Mind 3: can we say Dominate/Presence?
Matter 3: destroy parts of the vamp, destroy gear, etc., or one of my favorite
rotes: Matter 2: "Should have worn natural fibers", which turns any synthetic
fabric into napalm ready to be lit up....
Prime 3: um, I don't exactly know, but Prime 2: Enchant Weapon is
unpleasant
Spirit 3: step sideways, or bring something bad
Time 3: slow you down, speed me up.
Vernon Putman
In article <4uo133$f...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ja...@ux6.cso.uiuc.edu (verkuilen john v) writes:
>
>It depends on the vamp. 8th or 9th generation ancilla are tough opponents,
>while most 13th generation neonates would have a lot of trouble. If the
>mage got the drop (always the big if for mages) most rank 3 spheres are
>nasty. It's hard to say, though. Someone with, say, Entropy 3, would be
>in trouble unless the situation worked in their favor. Someone with Forces 3
Of course, being one with Entropy 3, you also have Entropy 2, so things
_will_ work in your favor.
>--
>J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
>"No general method will fail to give bad results if conjoined with universal
>idiocy." --John Stuart Mill
--
-- Nyarlathotep : The Crawling Chaos
SVEN SKOOG e
James McPherson (kil...@ntr.net) wrote:
: Life:3 allows extra actions. What if you have the nervous system &
: metabolism work twice as fast? Five times as fast? Is that not celerity?
: ('Course you have to worry about burning out, getting heatstroke, heart
: failure, muscle strains, etc)
I think this is pretty much correct -- I would rule, however, that such
an extreme (and VULGAR) acceleration of the human Pattern would require
successes to be split between extra (pseudo-Celerity) actions, duration,
AND modification of various subsystems (cardiovascular, muscular, etc)
to accommodate the super-speed.
But, then again, that African marathon runner (Ibrahim?) is probably,
say, twice as fast on his feet, literally, as I am, so maybe a double-
speed modifier would be coincidental.
: You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
: by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
: shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
Shock? I'm in partial agreement. It will not be an easy fight under
many circumstances.
But a Mage with Arete 3, and Forces 3, or Life 3, or whichever-Sphere-
at-3, is probably equivalent to a vampire with at least a couple of
Disciplines at 3 (the vampire doesn't have to spend on Arete). And I
tend to believe that, given the effective Discipline combinations many
vampire players are fond of selecting (Presence 3/Dominate 3, or maybe
Celerity 3/Potence 3, or Protean 3/Animalism 3... I'd raise a Mage's
difficulties if he/she had a swarm of rats chewing his/her ankles off),
unless the mage is a Hermetic Powergamer(tm), he/she may never get
close enough to finish the leech off with a Forces/Mind/Prime/Entropy/
Matter screw-you attack. Successes have to be spent on distances in
many cases, after all.
(A lot of people have been citing the tired-out and, IMHO, rather
flimsy, 'use Correspondence to send sunlight in from afar' argument.
The way I read things, a vampire with even low-level Auspex can sense
that sort of spatial distortion around his/her presence, as it begins
to happen, and wouldn't sit still for whatever-it-is (sunlight, a
summoned Umbrood assassin, a lightning bolt, whatever) to come through.
And Auspex, again IMHO, is a Discipline most, if not all, vampires
should _never_ be without.)
-- Sven
Kraig Blackwelder
In article <4uq56d$9...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>, ssk...@elux3.cs.umass.edu
(SVEN SKOOG e) wrote:
> (A lot of people have been citing the tired-out and, IMHO, rather
> flimsy, 'use Correspondence to send sunlight in from afar' argument.
> The way I read things, a vampire with even low-level Auspex can sense
> that sort of spatial distortion around his/her presence, as it begins
> to happen, and wouldn't sit still for whatever-it-is (sunlight, a
> summoned Umbrood assassin, a lightning bolt, whatever) to come through.
> And Auspex, again IMHO, is a Discipline most, if not all, vampires
> should _never_ be without.)
I'd say it's the least popular Discipline, actually. A majority of
players are power players to one extent or another; they like combinations
of Potence, Celerity, Protean, and perhaps Fortitude. Then you have the
slightly subtler folks who like the sneakier disciplines of Pres/Dom/Serp
and Auspex comes in pretty far back.
Even if the vampire had auspex, however, unless she has Celerity, she
won't have much time to respond before the effect gets her.
K.
verkuilen john v
kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) writes:
>> And Auspex, again IMHO, is a Discipline most, if not all, vampires
>> should _never_ be without.)
>I'd say it's the least popular Discipline, actually. A majority of
>players are power players to one extent or another; they like combinations
>of Potence, Celerity, Protean, and perhaps Fortitude. Then you have the
>slightly subtler folks who like the sneakier disciplines of Pres/Dom/Serp
>and Auspex comes in pretty far back.
Wow, Auspex is one of the most popular disciplines here. It's vital to know
_what's_ going on before you start chopping things. Vampires without Auspex
and lots of physical abilities tend to be easily manipulated thugs. I have
never had a character without Auspex, and those characters that start without
it almost always try to develop at least a point or two once they find
out that it exists. Of the disciplines that are awesome to have one point in,
Auspex is definitely up there (along with Obfuscate, Celerity, and Fortitude).
Jeff Wood
In article <4ug3ot$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>: trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel.
>
>>Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
>>of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
>
>Well, more like an Adept or Master Akashic or Euthanatos. I'm playing a
>Disciple Akashic in a vampire crossover, and while Elisabeta could easily
>take out most neonates with, say, Forces 3, she'd be really hard pressed
>in physical combat. It's best to stay away and use Prime-enchanted arrows
>augmented by Forces. Even a relatively young and weak vampire is dangerous
>when they frenzy and have a full blood pool.
>
>(Next session, when she develops Time 3, however, things will be different,
>although the risks are still great.)
>
Actually, my money is on the smart vampire in all cases... It doesn't
take much to get a kine (human) dominated to disbelieve everything
he/she sees for an hour and then cloak their presence (or hide them)
so they can see the entire fight. The kine, if done right, will
refuse to believe the fireworks of the fight. Now, since vamps
don't have to worry about Paradox (built-in precautions. ;) ), which
side is going to take a surprise beating?
Right, the instant the mage starts tampering with reality, they
invoke automatic paradox. This limits the mage's actions since
every spell will be paradoxical and hence not many can be used.
The vampire does not have this problem, and if he gets enough
brainwashed kine to watch the fight, he/she will be immune to
the magical effects of the mage. The mage will most likely
run for it. Afterwards, the vamp can do the brainwash thing to
wipe the memory of the his own actions from the kine. :)
It isn't the advantages of the mage, it's the weakness they have!
Jeff Wood
cinn...@netcom.com
Eric
kra...@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder) wrote:
>In article <4uq56d$9...@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>, ssk...@elux3.cs.umass.edu
>(SVEN SKOOG e) wrote:
>> (A lot of people have been citing the tired-out and, IMHO, rather
>> flimsy, 'use Correspondence to send sunlight in from afar' argument.
And to do that, you NEED a Correspondence of 6. Read Horizon, it
gives the capabilities of Level 6 Sphere's and cites a specific
example of sending an enemy into the heart of the sun. I don't think
there are any Oracles going Vampire hunting (unless you have a
Munchkiny Chronicle)
>> The way I read things, a vampire with even low-level Auspex can sense
>> that sort of spatial distortion around his/her presence, as it begins
>> to happen, and wouldn't sit still for whatever-it-is (sunlight, a
>> summoned Umbrood assassin, a lightning bolt, whatever) to come through.
>> And Auspex, again IMHO, is a Discipline most, if not all, vampires
>> should _never_ be without.)
With Auspex 4, maybe if the Vamp is using his action to read the
Mage's mind. Other than that you are talking about Auspex of 6 or
higher. Auspex doesn't say anything about senseing magic, and Magick
doesn't produce Spatial distortions (or whatever) until it happens
(and therefore too late to prevent)
>I'd say it's the least popular Discipline, actually. A majority of
>players are power players to one extent or another; they like combinations
Then again your talking power players for one. Two, you are talking
about players...players aren't the majority of Vampires, most of the
time they represent 6 or less of the vampire population. And while
usually towards the bottom of the power ladder of Kindred, they
usually aren't average either.
>of Potence, Celerity, Protean, and perhaps Fortitude. Then you have the
>slightly subtler folks who like the sneakier disciplines of Pres/Dom/Serp
>and Auspex comes in pretty far back.
>Even if the vampire had auspex, however, unless she has Celerity, she
>won't have much time to respond before the effect gets her.
> K.
------------------------------------------------------------
Don't throw it all away--No one day's the same
You must realize--it's all in your mind
Don't emphasize the pain--on one particular day
If you feel you're starting to slide
Just pull yourself together
Remember all that matters is you try
--Pennywise
----------------------------------------------------------
Aerospace Web Admin
Jeff Wood (cinn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <4ug3ot$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,: >>: Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
: >
: >>Elder Brujah or Gangrel vs. apprentice magi? Not fair. Throw a couple
: >>of kindred vs a Disciple Akhashic or Euthanatos. Watch the fun.
: >
: >Well, more like an Adept or Master Akashic or Euthanatos. I'm playing a
: >Disciple Akashic in a vampire crossover, and while Elisabeta could easily
: >take out most neonates with, say, Forces 3, she'd be really hard pressed
: >in physical combat. It's best to stay away and use Prime-enchanted arrows
: >augmented by Forces. Even a relatively young and weak vampire is dangerous
: >when they frenzy and have a full blood pool.
: >
: >(Next session, when she develops Time 3, however, things will be different,
: >although the risks are still great.)
: Actually, my money is on the smart vampire in all cases... It doesn't
: take much to get a kine (human) dominated to disbelieve everything
: he/she sees for an hour and then cloak their presence (or hide them)
: so they can see the entire fight. The kine, if done right, will
: refuse to believe the fireworks of the fight. Now, since vamps
: don't have to worry about Paradox (built-in precautions. ;) ), which
: side is going to take a surprise beating?
: Right, the instant the mage starts tampering with reality, they
: invoke automatic paradox. This limits the mage's actions since
: every spell will be paradoxical and hence not many can be used.
: The vampire does not have this problem, and if he gets enough
: brainwashed kine to watch the fight, he/she will be immune to
: the magical effects of the mage. The mage will most likely
: run for it. Afterwards, the vamp can do the brainwash thing to
: wipe the memory of the his own actions from the kine. :)
: It isn't the advantages of the mage, it's the weakness they have!
Errrrr ... no? One dominated human isn't going to all of a sudden make
the whole magickal paradigm vanish cause otherwise some vampire woulda
thought of this YEARS ago and done so. You can't dominate someone into
disbelieving that a car won't work and then when Joe Human tries to start
it it won't work. Why? Cause every other Joe Human out there thinks it
works, so, tough for that one Joe Human who's being dominated.
Nice try but you're gonna have to work at it much more than that to get
the Mage.
: Jeff Wood
: cinn...@netcom.com
Eric
cinn...@netcom.com (Jeff Wood) wrote:
>In article <4ug3ot$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>>>: Fighting Kindred toe to toe is insane; even the garou have
>>>: trouble against elder Brujah and Gangrel.
Unlike Garou, Vamps don't usually travel in groups (not coutnign
Ghouls and mortal retainers) Even a Young Garou has a good chance
against an Elder. It all depends on disciplines and etc...etc...but
Garou are built for combat, Vamps aren't, they can be good at it, but
they have to try harder.
>Actually, my money is on the smart vampire in all cases... It doesn't
>take much to get a kine (human) dominated to disbelieve everything
>he/she sees for an hour and then cloak their presence (or hide them)
>so they can see the entire fight. The kine, if done right, will
>refuse to believe the fireworks of the fight. Now, since vamps
>don't have to worry about Paradox (built-in precautions. ;) ), which
>side is going to take a surprise beating?
>Right, the instant the mage starts tampering with reality, they
>invoke automatic paradox. This limits the mage's actions since
>every spell will be paradoxical and hence not many can be used.
>The vampire does not have this problem, and if he gets enough
>brainwashed kine to watch the fight, he/she will be immune to
>the magical effects of the mage. The mage will most likely
>run for it. Afterwards, the vamp can do the brainwash thing to
>wipe the memory of the his own actions from the kine. :)
Go ahead try that, apparently the vamp will fall prey to lack of
knowledge on Mages. Mages get Paradox from Vulgar magic no matter who
sees it (even if no one does) it works. Coincidental magic will work
just as before because it doesn't matter if is being viewed or not, it
always works the same. And a crowd watching won't make spells harder
to cast or easier to resist. And if they are brainwashed it would
probably be like they aren't there at all. Dominate can't keep them
all there either. LIke everything, it all depends on the powers the
individuals involed has, and how they use them.
>It isn't the advantages of the mage, it's the weakness they have!
>Jeff Wood
>cinn...@netcom.com
David Alexander Rushing
Sorry chummers, but,as it says in The Book of Shadows, a mage who is
Embraced has his Avatar irrevocably changed and is unable to work magick.
Now, a mage who has been EMbraced could have access to funky new
Disciplines based on his previous powers as a Mage (i.e., Tremere,
Tzimische, etc.) but they would now be static Disciplines, and so
unaffected by Paradox. Such a Kindred could possibly found his own
Bloodline.
Example:
Akashic Brother Runs-with-Eagles has dots in Mind (natch) and Spirit. If
Embraced, (assuming he is Caitiff) his character's starting out
Disciplines could include Auspex and possibly a Discipline similar to
Tellurian (Chicago by NIght).
verkuilen john v
cinn...@netcom.com (Jeff Wood) writes:
>Actually, my money is on the smart vampire in all cases... It doesn't
>take much to get a kine (human) dominated to disbelieve everything
>he/she sees for an hour and then cloak their presence (or hide them)
>so they can see the entire fight.
This presumes Dominate 3 or Dominate 2 if the vamp is willing to do old
fashioned memory removal (i.e., lobotomy). Many vampires don't have this
although one would expect most elders or ancilla to have it. It also
presumes a relatively well-informed vampire, which is less reasonable.
Again, someone with mage lore or a mage advisor would be in decent shape,
but Joe Average Vampire _shouldn't_ know about the subtleties of Paradox.
The kine, if done right, will
>refuse to believe the fireworks of the fight. Now, since vamps
>don't have to worry about Paradox (built-in precautions. ;) ), which
>side is going to take a surprise beating?
Various coincidental forces effects can really screw things up. The
problem you have here is that the human has to be able to sense what's
happening and understand it. Something like prime-enchanted weapons are
not inherently obvious (as is directly stated in the book), but they
sure do screw up the vampire's day in a way that is quite believable to
a sleeper. Anyone who knows too much about what a vampire is capable of
no longer counts as a sleeper and hence does not make things more vulgar
than they would have been. (This is a bit slippery though.) Recall that
Dominate, unless done by a real master, tends to make most people into mental
mush, not exactly capable of sensitive weighing of the possibility or
impossibility of an action.
>Right, the instant the mage starts tampering with reality, they
>invoke automatic paradox. This limits the mage's actions since
>every spell will be paradoxical and hence not many can be used.
Not every spell, but many. For instance, Entropy 2: Beginner's Luck is
almost never vulgar (people _do_ get lucky sometimes), Prime 2: Enchanted
Weapon is not vulgar (it does quite believable aggravated wounds to
supernaturals), Time 3: Slow Time countering Celerity would not be vulgar,
Mind 3 allows the mage to dominate the vampire or cause the witness to sleep,
Matter 2 or Entropy 3: Slay Machine could cause a vampire's gun to explode
when the trigger is pulled....
A less subtle mage armed with a few points of quintessence to keep difficulties
low and a willpower point or two could simply soak up the paradox (a few points
aren't _that_ bad) and go for Create Sunlight or Fireball.
>The vampire does not have this problem, and if he gets enough
>brainwashed kine to watch the fight, he/she will be immune to
>the magical effects of the mage. The mage will most likely
>run for it. Afterwards, the vamp can do the brainwash thing to
>wipe the memory of the his own actions from the kine. :)
>It isn't the advantages of the mage, it's the weakness they have!
I don't disagree that your strategy is a good one and could cause many mages
no end of trouble, but it is not a dominant one; a clever mage could get
around it. The trouble here is that there are too many "free variables"
floating around in this argument to make it meaningful to say that X will
on average beat Y. (What kind of X and Y? Beat at what?)
I'm not arguing that mages are superior to vampires (or vice versa).
In physical combat even a highly physical mage would have trouble with a
vampire. Mages should not get into fist fights with vamps or garou. Vamps,
on the other hand, have some weaknesses that can be exploited and you can bet
a creative mage will do so.
One thing this discussion (and the one on Coincidence) does point out is
the importance of the ST's care in adjudicating vulgarity and paradox.
At least as much care should go into that as goes into the humanity rules.
Someone who is pro one system and con the other will quite likely provide a
biased argument about why one supernatural is better than the other unless
care is taken to give a balanced consideration of both sides' capacities.
verkuilen john v
z...@gvn.net (Eric) writes:
[snip]
>Go ahead try that, apparently the vamp will fall prey to lack of
>knowledge on Mages. Mages get Paradox from Vulgar magic no matter who
>sees it (even if no one does) it works.
1 point for success regardless. The real difference is if the mage botches.
Vulgar without witnesses gives 1 PP for the highest sphere level + 1. Vulgar
with witnesses gives 2 PP + 2/highest sphere level.
Coincidental magic will work
>just as before because it doesn't matter if is being viewed or not, it
>always works the same.
Not really. Location matters a great deal. What is coincidental in an
old house reputed to be haunted is likely not in a technocrat's lab.
>And a crowd watching won't make spells harder
>to cast or easier to resist.
Yes it does. Coincidental is +3, vulgar is +4, vulgar with witnesses is +5
on difficulty. Enough quintessence and it doesn't matter though.
And if they are brainwashed it would
>probably be like they aren't there at all.
Now this is a big problem. It's hard to give detailed instructions requiring
original thought and judgment to somoen brain-reamed.
>Dominate can't keep them
>all there either. LIke everything, it all depends on the powers the
>individuals involed has, and how they use them.
Risto T Paalanen
Jeff Wood (cinn...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Right, the instant the mage starts tampering with reality, they
: invoke automatic paradox. This limits the mage's actions since
: every spell will be paradoxical and hence not many can be used.
Which is why smart mages go co-incidental. You know, no paradox?
-ripa
--
.risto paalanen.........................................................
: sounds of void and light http://www.helsinki.fi/~rtpaalan/soval :
: "living is easy with eyes closed." - john lennon :
:......................life at the end of a rope too short for a noose..:
Mathias Karlsson
>I think this is pretty much correct -- I would rule, however, that such
>an extreme (and VULGAR) acceleration of the human Pattern would require
>successes to be split between extra (pseudo-Celerity) actions, duration,
>AND modification of various subsystems (cardiovascular, muscular, etc)
>to accommodate the super-speed.
Well, vulgar doesn't matter that terribly much as long as ONLY the vamp and
the mage are around, but if blood bound humans start appearing, then it is
time to duck out.
>But, then again, that African marathon runner (Ibrahim?) is probably,
>say, twice as fast on his feet, literally, as I am, so maybe a double-
>speed modifier would be coincidental.
Have you seen a karate champion move? (Or any other speed oriented martial
art?) They move faster than the eye can follow. Only in certain patterns, they
don't run in a straight line faster than you can see, but some I know can get
2m forward (one deep stance move) so fast that they blur.
So, you can normally move damn quick with the proper training, so up until the
max limit for unaugmented humans should be coincidental, and then only vulgar
if it CLEARLY goes faster. (And speed gets damn hard to measure once it is
past the "blur limit" for short moves.)
But I'd still use a correspondence effect to just lazily punch the vampire
where it hurts while he does the flipping around. (Another well known move
that certain RL martial artist masters seem to fancy. Works too, given some
decades of training.)
>Shock? I'm in partial agreement. It will not be an easy fight under
>many circumstances.
The only easy fight in WW would be a Werewolf in Crinos form against a
Changeling.
>But a Mage with Arete 3, and Forces 3, or Life 3, or whichever-Sphere-
>at-3, is probably equivalent to a vampire with at least a couple of
>Disciplines at 3 (the vampire doesn't have to spend on Arete). And I
>tend to believe that, given the effective Discipline combinations many
>vampire players are fond of selecting (Presence 3/Dominate 3, or maybe
>Celerity 3/Potence 3, or Protean 3/Animalism 3... I'd raise a Mage's
>difficulties if he/she had a swarm of rats chewing his/her ankles off),
>unless the mage is a Hermetic Powergamer(tm), he/she may never get
>close enough to finish the leech off with a Forces/Mind/Prime/Entropy/
>Matter screw-you attack. Successes have to be spent on distances in
>many cases, after all.
Power 2 is enough to fry a Vamp, more power can do this more easily. Matter
also is a heavy duty attack on Vampires, they are after all just dead tissue,
so matter works excellent on them. (And in a fight toe to toe with a vamp
Paradox doesn't matter much.) So, basically anything can evaporate the Vamp in
the first round. But the Vamp is usually in no hurry, it can just outlive the
mage threat. Or send hordes of minions on it.
>(A lot of people have been citing the tired-out and, IMHO, rather
> flimsy, 'use Correspondence to send sunlight in from afar' argument.
> The way I read things, a vampire with even low-level Auspex can sense
> that sort of spatial distortion around his/her presence, as it begins
> to happen, and wouldn't sit still for whatever-it-is (sunlight, a
> summoned Umbrood assassin, a lightning bolt, whatever) to come through.
> And Auspex, again IMHO, is a Discipline most, if not all, vampires
> should _never_ be without.)
Can he get far enough away in one round?
But I think the discussion is pretty mote, as it will show in play in any
given situation. The ST should know the opponents well enough to use them with
maximum efficiency. (I once got the players fighting their own xerox copies,
which led to a party death in the first round as their copies fought
flawlessly, and had some luck rolling dice.) The ST can kill the players given
almost any opponent if he wants to, and he can let them kill almost any
opponent if he wants to.
> -- Sven
Pycho
> z...@gvn.net (Eric) wrote in article <4v17ag$g...@kzin.gvn.net>...
> cinn...@netcom.com (Jeff Wood) wrote:
> Unlike Garou, Vamps don't usually travel in groups (not coutnign
> Ghouls and mortal retainers) Even a Young Garou has a good chance
> against an Elder. It all depends on disciplines and etc...etc...but
> Garou are built for combat, Vamps aren't, they can be good at it, but
> they have to try harder.
Well, actually the Sabbat do.. they work in packs, and are usually well
versed in team fighting, not all but they do have close packs.. In a
sense, some of the Sabbat packs mimic Garou packs.. They are loyal to each
other thru their bonding..
--
_____________________________________
Pycho
One of Many
Malkavian by blood, Lunitic by choice
"Happy happy, Joy Joy."
____________________________________
Joshua Jasper
In article <4ukb3g$6...@uuneo.neosoft.com>,
Darksteel Sword <hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com> wrote:
>Visitant (visitan...@sierra.campus.mci.net) wrote:
>: hyb...@starbase.neosoft.com (Darksteel Sword) wrote:
>
>: > Umm. Do you think Vampires don't have quintessence in them?
>: > Have you read mage?
>
>: Umm. According to the description, it operates on Life Patterns.
>: It places great emphasis on the fact that it affects the /flow/
>: of Quintessence /through/ a Life Pattern; Matter Patterns do not
>: have Quintessence in the form of a stream (IIRC, it pools within
>: them, giving them a rather static nature when compared to Life
>: Patterns). This is from the first edition, but unless it
>: specifically changes this in the second, I would apply it.
>: through them; back in the first edition, they definately would
>: not. That Life and Matter are required to affect them usually
>: makes it harder to affect them with something that only applies
>: only to living things; in this case, I don't know.
>: the "Have you read Mage?" comment was either unwarranted,
>: more applicable to yourself, or a combination of the two.
>
>
>
>
Just as they can be affected by a mater effect I've been happy to
use recently against a hit mark in my new Verbena characters garden. It's
called 'coincidentaly, the ground under you gives way, odd that pool of
quicksand ending up there' and then solidify it back into stone (the
ground that is)
Works as a vulgar effect for creating concrete shoes around
someones feet, or for that matter, a chunk of phosphorus(sp) up ther nose
(that'l clear your sinuses).
What it all comes down to, however, is who gets the drop on who,
although I'd have to say that alone and unarmed, mages kick ass at ranged
attacks. I'd like to see someone create a vamp who at inception, with no
merits can beat out a mage for sheer destructive power at long range
(unarmed, of course)
Sinboy
Pycho
Scott Nimmo
James McPherson (kil...@ntr.net) wrote:
: : Also, life:3 does not allow ... Celerity.. extra actions do not come
: from Life:3. Mind 1 and Time 3 allow for Celerity-like extra actions,
: however.
: Life:3 allows extra actions. What if you have the nervous system &
: metabolism work twice as fast? Five times as fast? Is that not celerity?
: ('Course you have to worry about burning out, getting heatstroke, heart
: failure, muscle strains, etc)
How would you do it though. Would you decrease the amount of synapses?
and if you managed to do this without stuffing up how would you deliver
the energy to the cells to conduct movement. You would have to replenish
ATP and deliver oxygen to stop lactic acid.. you could offset alot of
this (raising the diff to 9) but you would also need Forces 2 to leech
heat, not including mind 1 to coordinate... You would damage yourself AND
you couldn't do better than ==Celerity 1
The other option might be, high Corro, Life, medicine. Forces 2 and Mind
1 with a diff of 10 and the sky is the limit...
What a waste of time <grin>...
: You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
: by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
: shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
The ego is amazing. I played a mage game in Vancouver. (Garou to the left
of me, Vampires to the right...) We were $#!T scared of them all, why? We
had a master of Forces, an adepts of Mind, Time, Spirit. We also had all
other spheres covered at three. We were also a good team...
We knew that in a fight though we would die because only the time adept
could match the Garou and Vampires for speed. Only 2 of us could really
attempt to avoid Domination & Presence.
And then there is the Rapture...
We played vampires/garou and mages properly. None were THAT stupid ;)
If you're a mage you're still JUST human.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rigor Mortis makes me hard..." - Paul McDermott D*A*A*S
Scott Nimmo
President of the Vic.Uni.Computer Club s940...@westgate.vut.edu.au
Jens Hage
: : shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
:
: The ego is amazing. I played a mage game in Vancouver. (Garou to the left
: of me, Vampires to the right...) We were $#!T scared of them all, why? We
: had a master of Forces, an adepts of Mind, Time, Spirit. We also had all
: other spheres covered at three. We were also a good team...
: We knew that in a fight though we would die because only the time adept
: could match the Garou and Vampires for speed. Only 2 of us could really
: attempt to avoid Domination & Presence.
: And then there is the Rapture...
Prime 2 to eliminate extra actions. Mind 1 to avoid Domination and
Presence. Or at least that's what I'd use. Chew the enemy apart from a
distance; don't close. Use the Forces to cloak yourself, Spirit to harrass
them without exposing yourself and Life to heal up.
: We played vampires/garou and mages properly. None were THAT stupid ;)
: If you're a mage you're still JUST human.
Uh huh. And vamps are dead and garou are superstitious. What's yer
point? :)
Jens "Vamps and garou and dead things, oh my!" Hage
Eric Robert Sylwester
Jens Hage (jh...@io.com) wrote:
: Scott Nimmo (s940...@westgate.vut.edu.au) wrote:
: : James McPherson (kil...@ntr.net) wrote:
: : : You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
: : : by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
: : : shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
: :
: : The ego is amazing. I played a mage game in Vancouver. (Garou to the left
: : of me, Vampires to the right...) We were $#!T scared of them all, why? We
: : had a master of Forces, an adepts of Mind, Time, Spirit. We also had all
: : other spheres covered at three. We were also a good team...
: : We knew that in a fight though we would die because only the time adept
: : could match the Garou and Vampires for speed. Only 2 of us could really
: : attempt to avoid Domination & Presence.
: : And then there is the Rapture...
: Prime 2 to eliminate extra actions. Mind 1 to avoid Domination and
: Presence. Or at least that's what I'd use. Chew the enemy apart from a
: distance; don't close. Use the Forces to cloak yourself, Spirit to harrass
: them without exposing yourself and Life to heal up.
This isn't your "any mage with a single sphere 3" though; this is
a mage with almost all the spheres at the 2-3 level. Not closing with the
enemy is a great idea, but assuming you are forced to (obfuscate can get
them really close), exactly which effect are you going to use each turn?
You only get one. You can't heal yourself, shoot a fireball, and teleport
away all in the same round. Even time magick doesn't let you do this. So
now you are facing a nasty supernatural at arm's length, with their own
*unknown* powers, and you have to decide on where your dice pool goes:
Arete for offense, Arete for defense, Dodge and Brawl, Do if you're lucky.
Given the right spheres at the right levels, and a lot of distance
with which to work, yes, I agree that magick can be used to counter almost
any other supernatural power. But this is as unrealistic as the other
extreme (mage not being able to avoid a Close Encounter with Garou)- both
are set-up situations which rarely occur.
In all the WW games I've played, the reality is far different- the
mage players have *never* had all the spheres at levels where they can be
prepared for every contingency, and the characters rarely if ever know
exactly what they are facing; rather than stand there and wait for the
supernatural attack to come, just so you can react with counter-magick
which you are just *guessing* will be appropriate, the mage players hide
behind their more combat-oriented friends, lend support, and bug out when
the hand-to-hand brawl gets too close. They never get the distance that
they need to be completely safe but they rarely get caught in a brawl, and
similarly (but on a supernatural level) their chosen spheres are almost
always helpful but rarely enough to do the job on their own.
Do other people have similar experiences, or do their campaigns
run to the extremes (i.e. mages in hand-to-hand or mages knowing what
their opponents can do and wiping them out from a hundred feet away)?
--
| (#) -Eric
=/ /===_)----- Oh better far to live and die,
\_/ under the brave black flag I fly,
// \\ than play a sanctimonious part,
/ / with a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Jens Hage
Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: Jens Hage (jh...@io.com) wrote:
: : Scott Nimmo (s940...@westgate.vut.edu.au) wrote:
: : : James McPherson (kil...@ntr.net) wrote:
: : : : You're right. I used my house terms rather than normal WW. But I stand
: : : : by the concept that a mage with any single sphere at 3 will completely
: : : : shock the heck out of any kindred that they encounter.
: : :
: : : The ego is amazing. I played a mage game in Vancouver. (Garou to the left
: : : of me, Vampires to the right...) We were $#!T scared of them all, why? We
: : : had a master of Forces, an adepts of Mind, Time, Spirit. We also had all
: : : other spheres covered at three. We were also a good team...
: : : We knew that in a fight though we would die because only the time adept
: : : could match the Garou and Vampires for speed. Only 2 of us could really
: : : attempt to avoid Domination & Presence.
: : : And then there is the Rapture...
:
: : Prime 2 to eliminate extra actions. Mind 1 to avoid Domination and
: : Presence. Or at least that's what I'd use. Chew the enemy apart from a
: : distance; don't close. Use the Forces to cloak yourself, Spirit to harrass
: : them without exposing yourself and Life to heal up.
:
: This isn't your "any mage with a single sphere 3" though; this is
: a mage with almost all the spheres at the 2-3 level. Not closing with the
: enemy is a great idea, but assuming you are forced to (obfuscate can get
: them really close), exactly which effect are you going to use each turn?
Mind 1 effect to get two actions. One magick, assuming you have no focus
in it, and a melee attack with a Prime 2 weapon.
: You only get one. You can't heal yourself, shoot a fireball, and teleport
: away all in the same round. Even time magick doesn't let you do this. So
: now you are facing a nasty supernatural at arm's length, with their own
: *unknown* powers, and you have to decide on where your dice pool goes:
: Arete for offense, Arete for defense, Dodge and Brawl, Do if you're lucky.
Leave a Mind 1 effect in play (Aegis), that frags with a lot of the nasty
vamp abilities, and doen't require more concentration if you get 2+
successes. Use Forces or Life to cause nasty injuries. Summon up a Spirit
frind to melee with them for you.
: Given the right spheres at the right levels, and a lot of distance
: with which to work, yes, I agree that magick can be used to counter almost
: any other supernatural power.
I've not used a Sphere higher than 3 in my examples. It's a matter of
knowing what the most likely avenues of attack are and playing
accordingly.
: But this is as unrealistic as the other
: extreme (mage not being able to avoid a Close Encounter with Garou)- both
: are set-up situations which rarely occur.
: In all the WW games I've played, the reality is far different- the
: mage players have *never* had all the spheres at levels where they can be
: prepared for every contingency, and the characters rarely if ever know
: exactly what they are facing; rather than stand there and wait for the
: supernatural attack to come, just so you can react with counter-magick
: which you are just *guessing* will be appropriate, the mage players hide
: behind their more combat-oriented friends, lend support, and bug out when
: the hand-to-hand brawl gets too close. They never get the distance that
: they need to be completely safe but they rarely get caught in a brawl, and
: similarly (but on a supernatural level) their chosen spheres are almost
: always helpful but rarely enough to do the job on their own.
: Do other people have similar experiences, or do their campaigns
: run to the extremes (i.e. mages in hand-to-hand or mages knowing what
: their opponents can do and wiping them out from a hundred feet away)?
Mine has been a matter of guessing and playing to match. You -can- create
a nasty mix that will give any mage a real edge over most supers one on
one. Also, active versus reactive. Prime 2. I love that effect. Sic it on
an opponent and dodge until your opponent blows all the WP, then chew 'em
apart.
Jens "Well, I've done this -way- too much I think..." Hage
Luke Morey
We have had the same argument on the local BBS's here. It all comes down
to a few things.
1. Is it a Mage game, or a Vampire game?
2. Who gets inniative? This, I think, is the bigger of the two factors.
Thamaturgy and Presence can be nasty, and if the Mage is too far away, the
difficulties go through the roof.
A favored way to get rid of that nasty annoying Mage is to "befriend/bribe"
a gang. Paradox hurts lots.
verkuilen john v
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Eric Robert Sylwester) writes:
> This isn't your "any mage with a single sphere 3" though; this is
>a mage with almost all the spheres at the 2-3 level. Not closing with the
>enemy is a great idea, but assuming you are forced to (obfuscate can get
>them really close), exactly which effect are you going to use each turn?
>You only get one. You can't heal yourself, shoot a fireball, and teleport
>away all in the same round. Even time magick doesn't let you do this. So
>now you are facing a nasty supernatural at arm's length, with their own
>*unknown* powers, and you have to decide on where your dice pool goes:
>Arete for offense, Arete for defense, Dodge and Brawl, Do if you're lucky.
My mage character has many level 2 and level 3 spheres (Corr 1, Ent 3, For 3,
Life 2, Mind 2, Mat 1, Pri 2, Time 3 as well as Do 4, Dex 4, Dodge 4 and Sta
5!) and she avoids vampires and garou like the plague. Vampires and garou can
regenerate without taking an action, and can even regenerate when unconscious.
Everything a mage does depends on being aware and awake; it's just way too
easy for most vampires to knock a mage flat, and then that's it. Fisticuffs
against supernaturals unaided by magick is not their forte, even for Akashics.
> Given the right spheres at the right levels, and a lot of distance
>with which to work, yes, I agree that magick can be used to counter almost
>any other supernatural power. But this is as unrealistic as the other
>extreme (mage not being able to avoid a Close Encounter with Garou)- both
>are set-up situations which rarely occur.
Unless said mage has something really good, like a talisman that is powerful
in addition to their magick so they can fend off physical attacks or attack
back while staying alive, in effect gaining an extra supernatural action per
turn, they should prepare first.
> In all the WW games I've played, the reality is far different- the
>mage players have *never* had all the spheres at levels where they can be
>prepared for every contingency, and the characters rarely if ever know
>exactly what they are facing; rather than stand there and wait for the
>supernatural attack to come, just so you can react with counter-magick
>which you are just *guessing* will be appropriate, the mage players hide
>behind their more combat-oriented friends, lend support, and bug out when
>the hand-to-hand brawl gets too close. They never get the distance that
>they need to be completely safe but they rarely get caught in a brawl, and
>similarly (but on a supernatural level) their chosen spheres are almost
>always helpful but rarely enough to do the job on their own.
My mage has, in two months of play now, never gotten into hand-to-hand
combat aside from performing magick-assisted full dodges. No, I take that
back, once she did strike a HIT Mark V to channel what turned out to be
6 success Slay Machine (bye, HIT Mark V!) _after_ putting up a Forces shield.
Next session we are going to attack a Pentex site though, and the only
spirit magick she has is a sword talisman so it looks like that will change.
> Do other people have similar experiences, or do their campaigns
>run to the extremes (i.e. mages in hand-to-hand or mages knowing what
>their opponents can do and wiping them out from a hundred feet away)?
In any event, a mage's defenses require some time to set up, so they should
always spend time away from the fight making sure they can walk away from it
before getting involved.
Eric Robert Sylwester
Jens Hage (jh...@io.com) wrote:
: : a mage with almost all the spheres at the 2-3 level. Not closing with the
: : enemy is a great idea, but assuming you are forced to (obfuscate can get
: : them really close), exactly which effect are you going to use each turn?
: Mind 1 effect to get two actions. One magick, assuming you have no focus
: in it, and a melee attack with a Prime 2 weapon.
Okay, so I'm going to keep tabs on this; you presently have Arete
of 2+, Prime 2, Mind 1. Probably better say that it's Arete 3- you don't
want to have to use foci for your initial Mind effect, either.
So. Your first round, you turn on the Multiple Mental Actions
effect and then, if the ST is feeling nice, use your "normal" pool to
attack and defend. At this point you are hoping your opponent doesn't
have Rage or Celerity, or you are probably toast, because you only have
one dice pool, no offensive/defensive magick, while they will have at
least 2 separate pools, maybe more.
: Leave a Mind 1 effect in play (Aegis), that frags with a lot of the nasty
: vamp abilities, and doen't require more concentration if you get 2+
: successes. Use Forces or Life to cause nasty injuries. Summon up a Spirit
: frind to melee with them for you.
This is a completely different mind effect, isn't it? Multiple
Mental Actions isn't the same as Aegis, is it (I'm asking, I don't know
offhand)? If so, you've just spent your *second* turns' magickal action
to turn it on. This also brings up a flaw in your first round actions- if
the vampire/garou had used something like Presence in the first round, you
wou'nt have been prepared for it and wouldn't have had the dice pool to
counter it. And you still haven't had the chance to put that Prime 2
effect on your sword.
Again, you are left trading normal blows with another
supernatural, with no magickal offense or defense and a single pool to
split, hoping like all hell that they didn't get multiple physical
actions.
You've also added Spirit 2 and either Life 3 or Forces 2 to your
mage. Let's assume Forces 2 because it's cheaper in terms of points; you
presently have Prime 2, Mind 1, Spirit 2, Forces 2, and Arete 3. That
would be 15 freebies, with no points left over for anything else. And a
character that after two rounds of combat is still "setting up" their
situation. Also, because you only have Arete 3, both of your later
offensive/defensive effects- Spirit and Forces- will take Foci. Does your
character have the time to stop swinging his melee weapon and do a dance,
kiss his ring, quaff a potion, or whatever? I really, really doubt it.
He is most likely going to be stuck with Mind and Prime.
: Mine has been a matter of guessing and playing to match. You -can- create
: a nasty mix that will give any mage a real edge over most supers one on
: one. Also, active versus reactive. Prime 2. I love that effect. Sic it on
: an opponent and dodge until your opponent blows all the WP, then chew 'em
: apart.
Ah. Well, I gotta look that one up, I'm not remembering it at
this point. Just from my own experience though, it would be a fatal
mistake to assume that a garou/vamp/whatever is "out of the fight" just
because they are spending a point of willpower per round just to fight.
Combats rarely last more than a few rounds anyways, so how exactly has
this stopped them from killing you?
Also, if you are going "active" without doing the Mental Action
Trick beforehand, then you won't get a chance to defend yourself- you
trade blows, their physical vs. your Prime 2 effect. As a mage facing a
garou or vampire, this is probably a bad trade. OTOH, if you *did* do the
Mental Action Trick on the first round, you opened yourself up to whatever
supernatural attack he had in store for you. And in either case you are
seriously hurting if your opponent was one with multiple physical actions.
This hypothetical mage has no Correspondance, no Time, and no
Spirit at 3, which would be the typical defenses against a multiple action
attack, and doesn't have the freebie points to get them.
Like I said, I agree with you that mages in general can come up
with a defense for any attack. But not all at once, and not when in a
brawl. Mages need a little time away from the fray, a few minutes
preparation or- if you will- a good 50-feet head start to be really
effective. Without that, going toe-to-toe with the doggie boys or
leeches? A bad proposition. I'm not convinced he can take on a ghoul
with celerity 1 at this point, let alone a protagonist designed for
combat. This is the character design that's going to come out ahead
against "most supers one on one"?? More likely it's "Sabbat food."
Brian Trotter
MATTHEW VAN DIJK <n160...@sparrow.qut.edu.au> writes:
> BLASPHEMER! How DARE you reduce WW to D&D levels? There can be no
>comparison whatsoever! D&D is for munchkins who want nothing more than to
>slay things to get levels and cool eq. If you want a game of horror,
>despair and intrigue then you play WW, where you can keep dicing to a
>minimum or absent altogether.
Some people need less caffeine in their diet. Or they should
tell us they're being sarcastic- it's hard to tell, sometimes...
--Brian Trotter
btro...@turing.colorado.edu