The Book of the Wyrm, Book of Nephandi
LrdQuietus
I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
The Ghost in the Shell
Caleb00420
The book of the wyrm didn't HAVE play info, it was just a resource book.
The book of shadows has Nephandi AND Marauder info.
And besides, why not make up your own rules? I could come up with some
pretty interesting Nephandi stuff...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caleb Archer, Project UNFORGIVEN Designation 0001
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam
If you want some source material try looking through the Book of Madness and the
Book of Mirrors. They both have some good information that should help you get up
and running. I believe Phil Brucato mentioned in the Mage FAQ, found on their Web
site and in the Book of Mirrors, that he will not do a book solely on the Nephandi
because he feels "the idea of a Players Guide for mages dedicated to corruption
strikes me as careless and offensive." I personally agree with him.
Adam
Deirdre M. Brooks
>I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
>the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
>a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
WW already released a Book of the Wyrm. Reason being is that the forces of
the Wyrm are the primary antagonists in Werewolf: The Apocalypse. The
second edition will have better details, I'm told.
WW already released a book with Nephandi info - it's called the Book of
Madness. Regarding a Player's Guide to Nephandi - "Dude! That's seriously
fucked up!"
Magstheaxe
>ubject: The Book of the Wyrm, Book of Nephandi
>Path:
>lobby03.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: lrdqu...@aol.com (LrdQuietus)
>Newsgroups: alt.games.whitewolf
>Date: 1 Mar 1998 05:40:13 GMT
>Lines: 7
>Message-ID: <19980301054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com
>X-Admin: ne...@aol.com
>Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>
>
>
>I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book
>of
>the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or
>even
>a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
>
>
>
>
Best I can tell, it has to do with the personal tastes/preferences of the MAGE
Developer, Phil Brucato. On page 48 of the Book of Mirrors, he addresses the
question of when he'll be coming out with a Nephandi Player's Guide & replies:
"I'm not. Period...the idea of a Player's Guide for mages dedicated to
corruption strikes me as careless and offensive. To make black magic seem cool
is asking for trouble of all different kinds."
Frankly, IMHO, I think he's right.
Mags
Raindog
In article <19980301054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
LrdQuietus <lrdqu...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
>the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
>a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
IIRC, there's quite a bit of information on Nephandi, just none on
them as player characters. That's a personal decision of Phil Brucato's
and one I agree with. Given the seemingly endless procession of Sabbat and
BSD-loving goobers, I imagine he simply didn't want to have something as
vile as black magic fixated on as cool by a bunch of munchkins with the
emotional maturity of socially retarded 14 year olds.
Having seen what, say, the Witch OCC does to a typical Palladium
Fantasy game among the munchkins, I certainly don't blame him for
excluding that sort of foolishness from a game that tries to address the
deeper issues of being and identity. I know the work I did on
_Doomslayers: Into The Labyrinth_, which has a lot of expansions on the
culture of the Labyrinth, is pretty grody. I can understand why someone
might not want that sort of thing to happen in their corner of secondary
creation, especially if the game is a lot less about horror and a lot more
about self-discovery.
>The Ghost in the Shell
G.
Freelancer
My opinions are my own. If you don't like what I'm saying, explore
alternative opinion providers.
--
|Geoffrey C. Grabowski | Freelance JOAT-A | rai...@io.com | Swing Heil!|
[O] "He'll die without a whimper, like every hero's dream
[O] Like an angel with a bullet, like Cagney on the screen."
[O] -Tom Waits, "Romeo Is Bleeding"
Teleute - Heather
In article <19980301054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
lrdqu...@aol.com (LrdQuietus) writes:
> I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
> the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
> a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
>
Truthfully? Probably because Werewolf and Mage are
developed by different people, who have different
ideas of what's good and what's bad and what's
acceptable and what isn't. White Wolf isn't one
monolithic company that runs each of its lines in
the exact same way. (If it was, there would be
Black Dog Vampire books.)
_____________________________________________________
heather grove
part-time freelance writer
nigh...@mit.edu
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/nightowl/homepage.html
_____________________________________________________
We are the specters of a madness that surpasses ourselves and hides in
mystery. And though we search for sense throughout endless rooms, all
we may find is a voice whispering from a mirror in a house that belongs
to no one. [Ligotti]
Geoffrey Brent
My email address is spam-protected. To reply, try
an address without quite so much rat in it.
Adam <aw...@iglobal.net> wrote in article
<34F9F871...@iglobal.net>...
> If you want some source material try looking through the Book of Madness
and the
> Book of Mirrors. They both have some good information that should help
you get up
> and running. I believe Phil Brucato mentioned in the Mage FAQ, found on
their Web
> site and in the Book of Mirrors, that he will not do a book solely on the
Nephandi
> because he feels "the idea of a Players Guide for mages dedicated to
corruption
> strikes me as careless and offensive." I personally agree with him.
I wouldn't actually mind a Nephandi book (provided it was well thought out
and written, of course) but I think the obvious point is - it would be a PR
disaster, and WW would run the risk of being crucified for it. It'd be very
difficult to make it palatable without watering them down; most of us can
imagine stuff far nastier than WW could get away with publishing. For some
reason, the "it's only a game" factor tends to be weaker with Mage than the
other games, which may be why Wraith, Werewolf and Vampire get away
with more.
Geoffrey Brent
Sébastien Lévesque
Teleute - Heather wrote:
> In article <19980301054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
> lrdqu...@aol.com (LrdQuietus) writes:
>
> > I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
> > the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
> > a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
> >
>
> Truthfully? Probably because Werewolf and Mage are
> developed by different people, who have different
> ideas of what's good and what's bad and what's
> acceptable and what isn't. White Wolf isn't one
> monolithic company that runs each of its lines in
> the exact same way. (If it was, there would be
> Black Dog Vampire books.)
Montréal by Night, and the Giovanni Chronicles, are Black Dog... And the upcoming
Clanbook Baali, too...
Sébas.
(from Montréal)
Caleb00420
Although, sometimes it seems that Black Dog released the Tzmicse
Clanbook... (shudder)
And Black Dog DID release one whitewolf book: "Freak Legions: A players
guide to Fomori" (more shuddering). Did you possibly mean to refer to this
book, not "Book of the Wyrm"?
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
On 2 Mar 1998, Magstheaxe wrote:
> >I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book
> >of
> >the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or
> >even
> >a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
> >
Look, the information given in Book of the Wyrm on BSDs weren't really
meant for player characters, but I've seen several PC BSD twinks. Same
goes for Demonic Diabolists on the Path of Evil Revelations. Where
there's a will to play some godless monstrosity, there's a way.
It would take a minimum of time and effort to get the information you
need from the Book of Madness, Book of the Wyrm, and even some vampire
sourcebooks and go rip-roarin' with a nephandus character. I've created
incredibly detailed NPCs from these sources, so I know there's enough info
there to create a PC. There doesn't have to be a Trad/ Tribe/ Clan/ Kith/
Guild-book for EVERYTHING. Imagination is a nice subsitute.
Stevil
E-mail address: smar...@ocean.st.usm.edu
X-mail coordinates: _)^*(*&^%&^%YGI&UY%&^%$E(&TGP(*&Y*&Y&^^&
Casey K Day
It is presumably possible to play a subject of the Wyrm in
Werewolf without being a total, universe-destroying, psycho maniac. It is
possible, for example, to be a Fomori (there's a book for that, too)
without having the annihilation of All That Is in mind.
Being physically transmuted into a Kindred makes you something
that seems cannibalistic at first glance, resulting in alienation and
creepiness. Realizing you're a Garou means you can't rely on your
self-control any longer, and have to rely on animalistic, primal forces
within yourself to get along because civility won't stop Black Spiral
Dancers. Becoming a Fomori means you're in worse shape than the Kindred,
in that you'll eventually go crazy or melt, and you're either enslaved to
Pentex (or another Wyrm affiliate in your area) or on the run.
Becoming a Nephandi means you've made the conscious decision to be
Reborn to Evil and Darkness Forever. You've gone through the rebirth from
the Caul. It isn't like joining the NWO for a spell, realizing it was a
mistake, and quitting to try to make Tradition friends again. The Wyrm
cycle of reality has a grip on you, Entropy itself tears at you, and you
can't ever even feel hope again.
Going into the Caul strips away your hope, your dreams, any goal
you may have except having a quick, fun ride into oblivion and taking
everything around you on that ride. It turns you into the Awakened
equivalent of the Wraith game's Shadow: nihilism without any purpose
except immolation. This isn't playing Chaotic Evil in D&D and using it as
an excuse to backstab fellow players. This is resigning your life to
destroying the World of Darkness at any cost, and purposefully hurting
every living being you encounter along the way, subtly or violently.
Nephandi are NPCs because no sane player would ever run a being
who exists for no good purpose. Every other kind of Mage has a purpose
that he believes will create a good thing in the universe (Euthanatos
believe in rebirth in a better life, Technocrats in safety, etc.).
Nephandi are the one enemy everyone can band together and fight.
Now, have I answered the question, or do I need to waste even more
electricity? Naah, I'm done. Thank you for allowing the rant to live.
Casey
"Oh, yes, Mister Book. I have John Murdoch . . . in mind."
"...I'm in the tank, aren't I?" -- Arnold, Kate, Reg, et. al.
]--------------
/
/
/
] --- / ---[
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/
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On 1 Mar 1998, LrdQuietus wrote:
> I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
> the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
> a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
>
>
>
Paul Imboden
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.98030...@clarion.korrnet.org>,
Casey K Day <bar...@korrnet.org> wrote:
>
<Big horkin' SNIP>
>
> Now, have I answered the question, or do I need to waste even more
>electricity? Naah, I'm done. Thank you for allowing the rant to live.
>
> Casey
>
Live? This was the best rant I've seen in months, and the only irony I can
see is in your e-mail address.
Paul
Paul Gayner
Teleute - Heather wrote:
>
> In article <19980301054...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
> lrdqu...@aol.com (LrdQuietus) writes:
>
> > the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
> > a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
> >
Werewolf is a lot more 'limited' than Mage; you can't really avoid the
book of the Wyrm in the same way that Vampire was pretty lacking without
the Sabbat sourcebooks. Every werewolf in every situation is there for a
reason - to fight the Wyrm.
In Mage, though, the Nephandus aren't nearly as cenral to the game.
They are one of the smallest (in number, at least) threats to Ascension,
but they get a lot of attention because they're the wrongest. The mages
have plenty of other things to worry about besides the Nephandus - the
Werewolves would be pretty bored if it wasn't for the Wyrm.
>
> Truthfully? Probably because Werewolf and Mage are
> developed by different people, who have different
> ideas of what's good and what's bad and what's
> acceptable and what isn't. White Wolf isn't one
> monolithic company that runs each of its lines in
> the exact same way. (If it was, there would be
> Black Dog Vampire books.)
>
I think Clanbook Giovanni was treading on pretty Black Dog territory,
myself. I have to say that I thought that apart from the back cover
illustration (which I thought was perfectly in keeping with the clan)
Clanbook Tzimisce was pretty tame, and the interior illustrations were
just silly. Nothing awful in the text, either, apart from the
pornographic sculpter/body surgeon archetype. Giovanni, however... the
introduction story was a bit of a stomach-churner.
Just out of interest, what would you like to see Black Dog do for
Vampire? All the clans are covered now, including the 'evil' Setites and
Sabbat clans, so what's left? Montreal by Night (a Black Dog Sabbat
citybook) was apparently no good. Personally, I'd like to see Clanbook
Lasombra done again (just for starters..) and then the whole Sabbat
issue redone - I don't think the ideas or concept were badly done, but I
think that WW could benefit from the writing talents involved in the
excellent Ghouls: Fatal Addiction and Clanbook Giovanni, and make the
second editions a bit more interesting to read. (as well as tidying up
some of the path/frenzy/discipline issues, etc..)
Daniel B. Holzman
>who exists for no good purpose. Every other kind of Mage has a purpose
>that he believes will create a good thing in the universe (Euthanatos
>believe in rebirth in a better life, Technocrats in safety, etc.).
>Nephandi are the one enemy everyone can band together and fight.
Congratulations, you have just illustrated most eloquently the exact
reason that there is a need for a Nephandi Player's Guide, and why one
will some day come about whether Bruccato likes it or not.
There's plenty of sane players who play a variety of sorts of Nephandi
for a variety of reasons. ANd you've completely managed to miss the
internal mindset of all Nephandi, even the ones you managed to partially
describe in your diatribe.
Yes, some Nephandi are dedicated to destroying the World of Darkness.
The Wyrmy ones. That's one of three classes of Nephandi.
Infernalists are less into destruction and more into who should control
the Wod.
Those who serve the Outsiders I just can't explain to you because I'm not
one in real life, and they work according to principals not necessarily
dedicated to destroying the WoD, but based on a set of first principles
that don't include the notion that the physical world is something that
anyone would care if it's preserved or not. You don't worry about the
billions of skin cells that die every time you scratch, either.
But the thing you absolutely miss about the Nephandi is that they're not
"resigned" to destoying the WoD at all. It is incorrect to exclude them
from the people who believe they're doing something ultimately good. They
actually believe, for a variety of reasons, that such destruction is our Best
Destiny, with the same fervency and ernesty that other Magi follow their
visions of Ascencion.
Much like the Sabbat do. Or the BSDs.
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
Hear, hear brother Casey! Can we get an amen? Very nicely put.
On Thu, 5
Mar 1998, Paul Imboden wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.98030...@clarion.korrnet.org>,
> Casey K Day <bar...@korrnet.org> wrote:
>
> >
> <Big horkin' SNIP>
> >
> > Now, have I answered the question, or do I need to waste even more
> >electricity? Naah, I'm done. Thank you for allowing the rant to live.
> >
> > Casey
> >
>
> Live? This was the best rant I've seen in months, and the only irony I can
> see is in your e-mail address.
>
> Paul
>
>
Stevil
Webwalker
Paul wrote:
<> Teleute - Heather wrote:
<>>
<snip>
CB:Tz was okay. I was hoping for more gruesome stuff, but the Tzimisce
part in LS was awesome, and made up for it. I haven't read Giovanni yet,
mostly because I don't like the Giovanni idea. (or Ventrue, for that
matter, and after reading the CB, I like them even less. but playing a DA
Ventrue could be cool...)
<> Just out of interest, what would you like to see Black Dog do for
<> Vampire? All the clans are covered now, including the 'evil' Setites and
<> Sabbat clans, so what's left?
<> Montreal by Night (a Black Dog Sabbat
<> citybook) was apparently no good. Personally, I'd like to see Clanbook
<> Lasombra done again (just for starters..) and then the whole Sabbat
<> issue redone - I don't think the ideas or concept were badly done, but I
<> think that WW could benefit from the writing talents involved in the
<> excellent Ghouls: Fatal Addiction and Clanbook Giovanni, and make the
<> second editions a bit more interesting to read. (as well as tidying up
<> some of the path/frenzy/discipline issues, etc..)
Two suggestions: Are there Toronto/Detroit by Nights? If not, you could
make the Detroit by Night a project for the same writing team. (I hope
that there aren't, so I don't look stupid. :) )
Maybe a Sabbat Clan book? One that shows the differences between the
clans and their Camarilla/Independant counterparts? I'd love to see more
about the City Gangrel (maybe some history; why did they lose Animalism
and Fotitude and get Obfuscate and Celerity instead? When did they start
to appear? etc.) the Serpants and the Panders. The way the Panders were
treated in Outcasts was just disgusting. (but maybe I'm biased. :) ) Like
a normal Clanbook, but bigger.
--
"and half an hour later we packed up our things
we said we'd send letters and all of those little things
and they knew we were lying but they smiled just the same
it seemed they'd already forgotten we'd came..."
Toad The Wet Sprocket http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
nicholas curtis
Paul Gayner (pa...@ukc.ac.uk) wrote:
: Just out of interest, what would you like to see Black Dog do for
: Vampire? All the clans are covered now, including the 'evil' Setites and
: Sabbat clans, so what's left?
Hmm. I wouldn't mind a truly sick adventure to throw innocent players in.
Probably the best received game I've ever run at a convention was a Call Of
Cthulhu/Vampire: The Masquerade crossover game. Very little Cthulhu,
outside of the basic details.
Also, Demonology could be covered. Not only they actual heirarchy of Hell
and their superhuman representatives, but their mortal followers who dread
where no man should.
I await Clanbook Baali with high expectations...
Greg Wilhelm
>> lrdqu...@aol.com (LrdQuietus) writes:
>>
>> > I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book
> of
>> > the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or
> even
>> > a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
>> >
>
> Werewolf is a lot more 'limited' than Mage; you can't really avoid the
>book of the Wyrm in the same way that Vampire was pretty lacking without
>the Sabbat sourcebooks. Every werewolf in every situation is there for a
>reason - to fight the Wyrm.
> In Mage, though, the Nephandus aren't nearly as cenral to the game.
>They are one of the smallest (in number, at least) threats to Ascension,
>but they get a lot of attention because they're the wrongest. The mages
>have plenty of other things to worry about besides the Nephandus - the
>Werewolves would be pretty bored if it wasn't for the Wyrm.
All good reasons, and all probably valid, but the only reason I've ever heard
from the Powers That Be at WWGS is slightly more real-life. A Book on
Nephandi would probably have to have inclusion of numerous Nephandic rituals.
I'd be willing to bet that if such a book came out, some jackass would go out
and actually try the rituals and end up either hurting/killing himself or
someone else in the process. Plus, Mage is supposed to be a very mentally
powerful game. Dealing with paradigms isn't like fighting the Wyrm. WOuld
you rather have a portrayal of positive ideas or horrendously negative ones?
Sorry that sounds so disjointed. It sounded much clearer when it was in my
brain....
Greg Wilhelm
blac...@borg.com
K. Aspinall
>But the thing you absolutely miss about the Nephandi is that they're not
>"resigned" to destoying the WoD at all. It is incorrect to exclude them
>from the people who believe they're doing something ultimately good. They
>actually believe, for a variety of reasons, that such destruction is our
Best
>Destiny, with the same fervency and ernesty that other Magi follow their
>visions of Ascencion.
>
>Much like the Sabbat do. Or the BSDs.
I think the main reason is that the Nephandri represent an enemy far more
deadly and evil than any number of BSD or Sabbat - i agree completely with
the Book of Madness, where it states that the main difference between the
Nephandri and the other "baddies" in the WoD is that they are far more evil -
there isnt one redeeming feature in a Nephandri, and they willingly chose
that path.
What sort of mind does that?
Kris Aspinall
Steven Stutzman
K. Aspinall <CSC...@leeds.ac.uk> wrote in article
<6dp3d4$934...@leeds.ac.uk>...
> I think the main reason is that the Nephandri represent an enemy far
more
> deadly and evil than any number of BSD or Sabbat - i agree completely
with
> the Book of Madness, where it states that the main difference between the
> Nephandri and the other "baddies" in the WoD is that they are far more
evil -
> there isnt one redeeming feature in a Nephandri, and they willingly chose
> that path.
>
> What sort of mind does that?
The same sort of mind that chooses to dance the Black Spiral or lets her
mind be altered during the Creation Rites. The Sabbat books say a vamp can
retain Humanity and I'm sure the Dancers aren't forced onto the Sprial
(they may have been brainwashed since birth, but that's not so different
from conning a mage into entering the Caul).
I really can't see any one group being more evil than the others.
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
You really don't see any group as being worse than another? A BSD and a
Child of Gai are no different to you? COME ON! Stop with the
ultra-liberal nonsense, and use some common sense. Everyone in the WoD
is potentially a baddie, but some are obviously worse than others.
>
mind be altered during the Creation Rites. The Sabbat books say a vamp can
> retain Humanity and I'm sure the Dancers aren't forced onto the Sprial
> (they may have been brainwashed since birth, but that's not so different
> from conning a mage into entering the Caul).
>
> I really can't see any one group being more evil than the others.
>
>
Stevil
Steven Stutzman
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980307...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>...
>
> You really don't see any group as being worse than another? A BSD and a
> Child of Gai are no different to you? COME ON! Stop with the
> ultra-liberal nonsense, and use some common sense. Everyone in the WoD
> is potentially a baddie, but some are obviously worse than others.
>
Um, if you read the entire thread you might realize I don't see any of the
"evil" groups as being worse than any othe the other "evil" groups.
Examples for your slow-witted mind: I don't see Sabbat as than Dancers. I
don't see Dancers as worse than Nephandi. I don't see Nephandi as worse
than Spectres. I don't see Spectres as worse than Fomori. I don't see
Fomori as worse than Sabbat. See, we've come full circle. Can you say
"comprehension"? I knew you couldn't.
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
Me, Thog, se that you say "I don't see any GROUP (unspecified) as
being worse than the other." Me, Thog, understand what Shitzman WRITES,
and if you don't make point clear then that is you, Putzman mistake, not
mistake by me, Thog.
Other words you use... don't understand... me, Thog, must have slow On 7 Mar 1998, Steven
Stutzman wrote:
Stevil
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
Below is my proof. In the last sentence, you said that you don't
see any group as being worse than the other. However, "group" wasn't
specifically defined. If it were in the same paragraph, it could be
easily interpreted as one of the groups you were discussing. Howerever,
you began a new paragraph, which suggests an end to that thought and the
beginning of another. You failed to state a specific subject for the
sentence, and that is your shortcoming and not mine.
I understand you want to be cute, and you were. Oh your comments
cut me to the bone, they were so witty, it has been hours since I first
read them, and I just can't come up with a response, because you are the
king of comebacks, the duke of retorts, the sultan of insults. I stand
truly, undeniably, totally, breathlessly dumbfounded. So can we end
this flame war before it starts?
> mind be altered during the Creation Rites. The Sabbat books say a vamp can
> > retain Humanity and I'm sure the Dancers aren't forced onto the Sprial
> > (they may have been brainwashed since birth, but that's not so different
> > from conning a mage into entering the Caul).
> >
> > I really can't see any one group being more evil than the others.
> >
> >
>
Sauron
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:54:55 -0500, Casey K Day <bar...@korrnet.org>
wrote:
> Becoming a Nephandi means you've made the conscious decision to be
>Reborn to Evil and Darkness Forever. You've gone through the rebirth from
>the Caul. It isn't like joining the NWO for a spell, realizing it was a
>mistake, and quitting to try to make Tradition friends again. The Wyrm
>cycle of reality has a grip on you, Entropy itself tears at you, and you
>can't ever even feel hope again.
And there's the problem I have with the nephandi as written. How many
people do you know who would choose to be "evil"? Most people who do
bad things certainly don't think of themselves as evil-they just think
they're doing what they have to do to survive, or they use
intellectual subterfuge to avoid contemplating the fact that what they
do is really shitty because of greed or expediency. But nobody is
going to *choose* to be "evil"- a loaded term that's societally
defined anyway.
>
> Going into the Caul strips away your hope, your dreams, any goal
>you may have except having a quick, fun ride into oblivion and taking
>everything around you on that ride. It turns you into the Awakened
>equivalent of the Wraith game's Shadow: nihilism without any purpose
>except immolation. This isn't playing Chaotic Evil in D&D and using it as
>an excuse to backstab fellow players. This is resigning your life to
>destroying the World of Darkness at any cost, and purposefully hurting
>every living being you encounter along the way, subtly or violently.
Why, for chrissakes? Look, you have a group of people with an IQ at
least a bit higher than the normal population, and they're running
around trying to trash the world they have to live in! It would be
different if they thought they were going to be saved, or if they
didn't know what they're doing is really going to lead to the
heat-death of the universe, but they *do*. In fact, it's their groups
stated purpose for existing! What kind of sense does that make?
Where's the gain, the motivation?
>
> Nephandi are NPCs because no sane player would ever run a being
>who exists for no good purpose. Every other kind of Mage has a purpose
I submit that even insane people are smarter than this.
>that he believes will create a good thing in the universe (Euthanatos
>believe in rebirth in a better life, Technocrats in safety, etc.).
>Nephandi are the one enemy everyone can band together and fight.
Which leads me to beleive that the Nephandi are a fabrication, a
boogeyman. They make the perfect scapegoats, don't they? I smell the
NWO on this one-maybe the nephs are their way of trying to get
buddy-buddy with the traditions? "We have a common enemy..."
>
> Now, have I answered the question, or do I need to waste even more
>electricity? Naah, I'm done. Thank you for allowing the rant to live.
>
> Casey
>
>"Oh, yes, Mister Book. I have John Murdoch . . . in mind."
>
>
>"...I'm in the tank, aren't I?" -- Arnold, Kate, Reg, et. al.
>
> ]--------------
> /
> /
> /
> ] --- / ---[
> /
> /
> /
> --------------[
>
>On 1 Mar 1998, LrdQuietus wrote:
>
>> I'm somewhat confused here: Why is it that White Wolf will release The Book of
>> the Wyrm, yet will refuse to release a player's guide for the Nephandi, or even
>> a sourcebook without details on how to play a Nephandi?
>>
>>
>>
>> The Ghost in the Shell
>>
>>
>
____________________________________________________________
Sauron sau...@cmq.com
"But you must not change one thing, one pebble, one
grain of sand, until you know what good and evil will
follow on that act. The World is in Blance, in Equilibrium.
A wizard's power of Changing and of Summoning can shake the
balance of the world. It is dangerous, that power. Most
perilous. It must follow knowledge, and serve need. To
light a candle is to cast a shadow..."
-Ursula LeGuin
_A Wizard of Earthsea_
____________________________________________________________
Sauron
>
>You really don't see any group as being worse than another? A BSD and a
>Child of Gai are no different to you? COME ON! Stop with the
>ultra-liberal nonsense, and use some common sense. Everyone in the WoD
>is potentially a baddie, but some are obviously worse than others.
Extremeism in any form leads to horrors, the Nephandi have not at all
cornered the market in this regard. There's a template in the back of
the CoG tribebook called "spirit Warrior". Take a look at it. A
character like this is potentially capable of committing worse
atrocities than a BSD, and of being frighteningly cold-blooded about
it.
Sauron
On 9 Mar 1998 06:20:34 -0600, hol...@xochi.tezcat.com (Daniel B.
Holzman) wrote:
>Bear in mind that what you're reading tends to be what the Traditions
>think of Nephandi, or what the Conventions think of them, not what they
>think of themselves.
Debateable. I'm thinking specifically of the Book of mirror's
writeup, which seems as if it's written from their point of view.
>
>If you look at the Chronicle of The Black Spiral, on the other hand, you
>see that at least Wyrm-servitors do not think of themselves as evil, but
>engaged in a noble crusade to rescue a cruelly imprisoned God. The fact
>that such rescue would destroy all existence is a secondary consideration
>to them.
Again: Why? Presumably if they want to rescue this god, there's
something in it for them. What?
>
>The Outsider-servitors aren't necessarily evil at all, but following a
>morality totally orthogonal to any principal which would make sense to
>normal humans. Part of why the get so little attention is that they are
>so bizare.
This is way too close to "they're evil just because they are" for my
comfort. People need realistic and understandable goals, or they
become cardboard cut-outs.
>
>The Infernalists are classicly evil, though they have their own arguments
>for why they're not evil.
Demon worship is actually easier to understand than any other form of
Nephandism. Like satanism, it's a form of rebellion.
Geoffrey Brent
My email address is spam-protected. To reply, try
an address without quite so much rat in it.
I think it's pretty hard to justify the claim that the Nephandi are
_unarguably_
the most evil. For one thing, a lot of other groups embrace a very similar
philosophy; the Setites, the Path of Evil Revelations, the Black Spiral
Dancers.
Sure, individual Dancers might have redeeming features, but so does the
occasional individual Nephandi. Overall, their philosophies are very
similar; it's
just a matter of what powers they use to further those philosophies.
I've played a character with nothing at all to live for - a Garou whose
soul was
devoured by the Wyrm - and it was one of the more interesting gaming
experiences I've had. With a few modifications, his story could easily have
been that of a Nephandus.
The reason a PG: Nephandi would cause more trouble than Freak Legion,
Spectres, Sabbat, or Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth is probably the
"it's only a game" factor. Fomori can be a lot of fun to play, but nobody
would ever want to _be_ one, and it'd be pretty difficult to persuade
yourself
that you _were_. Black Spiral Dancers live a bit longer, and if I had to be
one or the other I'd rather be a Dancer, but it's still pretty hard for
even the
more disturbed roleplayer to convince himself that he can turn into a nine
foot tall Shag Carpet of Death (tm).
Mages are essentially human; I don't want to get into a huge argument
about this, but they're a lot closer to human than the other supernatural
races, with the possible exceptions of Changelings (if you downplay the
fae seeming) and, perhaps, those fomori who have only a few very mild
Taints. Werewolves and vampires are pretty obviously a different species
from humans. Wraiths are _dead_. But mages are just people with powers.
This means that people tend to take mage philosophy a lot more personally
than they do with the other games - have a look at some of the paradigm
wars on these newsgroups...
So although it's really violent and gross, Freak Legion isn't going to make
anyone go out and start eating toxic waste to get Savage Genitalia, or
whatever. A well-written Nephandus book, OTOH, has to explain _why_
the Nephandi find that philosophy appealing, and because the Nephandi
start out as human beings those reasons have to be convincing to _humans_.
Obviously, this is more dangerous than a philosophy that begins "I can step
into alternate dimensions, talk to nature-spirits and turn into a Shag
Carpet
of Death, _therefore_ I'm allowed to go on the rampage."
Geoffrey Brent
Steven Stutzman
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980308...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>...
>
> Me, Thog, se that you say "I don't see any GROUP (unspecified) as
> being worse than the other." Me, Thog, understand what Shitzman WRITES,
> and if you don't make point clear then that is you, Putzman mistake, not
> mistake by me, Thog.
I refer to the Black Spiral, the Creation Rites, and the Caul. AFAIK
Camarilla vamps, most Garou, and Trad mages don't use any of those methods.
You respond by telling me to lose the hippie crap. Which post started with
more civility?
Steven Stutzman
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980308...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>...
>
> Below is my proof. In the last sentence, you said that you don't
> see any group as being worse than the other. However, "group" wasn't
> specifically defined. If it were in the same paragraph, it could be
> easily interpreted as one of the groups you were discussing. Howerever,
> you began a new paragraph, which suggests an end to that thought and the
> beginning of another. You failed to state a specific subject for the
> sentence, and that is your shortcoming and not mine.
Actually if you take that tone, then "group" could be determined as
vampire, werewolf, etc. not Dancers, Bone Gnawers, etc. Which do you mean?
Steven Stutzman
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman <smar...@ocean.otr.usm.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980308...@ocean.otr.usm.edu>...
> I understand you want to be cute, and you were. Oh your comments
> cut me to the bone, they were so witty, it has been hours since I first
> read them, and I just can't come up with a response, because you are the
> king of comebacks, the duke of retorts, the sultan of insults. I stand
> truly, undeniably, totally, breathlessly dumbfounded. So can we end
> this flame war before it starts?
I apologize. Moral of the story: Please don't assume what someone meant. If
you're not sure, ask. You can flame away after you get an answer.
Daniel B. Holzman
In article <3502f73b...@news.communique.net>,
Sauron <sau...@cmq.com> wrote:
>
>And there's the problem I have with the nephandi as written. How many
>people do you know who would choose to be "evil"? Most people who do
>bad things certainly don't think of themselves as evil-they just think
>they're doing what they have to do to survive, or they use
>intellectual subterfuge to avoid contemplating the fact that what they
>do is really shitty because of greed or expediency. But nobody is
>going to *choose* to be "evil"- a loaded term that's societally
>defined anyway.
Bear in mind that what you're reading tends to be what the Traditions
think of Nephandi, or what the Conventions think of them, not what they
think of themselves.
If you look at the Chronicle of The Black Spiral, on the other hand, you
see that at least Wyrm-servitors do not think of themselves as evil, but
engaged in a noble crusade to rescue a cruelly imprisoned God. The fact
that such rescue would destroy all existence is a secondary consideration
to them.
The Outsider-servitors aren't necessarily evil at all, but following a
morality totally orthogonal to any principal which would make sense to
normal humans. Part of why the get so little attention is that they are
so bizare.
The Infernalists are classicly evil, though they have their own arguments
Stevil the Parakeet Shaman
Oh yeah?! Well, Steve, YOU ARE A MEANIE-BUTT! Take that, yeah!
NO-body messes with me...
I was the first to start with the flamey-stuff. I did mean it
light-heartedly, but I guess it's difficult to infer tone from text. =)
Me, Thog, make truce with you, Steve? =)
> >
Me, Thog, se that you say "I don't see any GROUP (unspecified) as
> > being worse than the other." Me, Thog, understand what Shitzman WRITES,
> > and if you don't make point clear then that is you, Putzman mistake, not
> > mistake by me, Thog.
>
> I refer to the Black Spiral, the Creation Rites, and the Caul. AFAIK
> Camarilla vamps, most Garou, and Trad mages don't use any of those methods.
> You respond by telling me to lose the hippie crap. Which post started with
> more civility?
>
>
>
Stevil
Anders Sandberg
sau...@cmq.com (Sauron) writes:
> >The Outsider-servitors aren't necessarily evil at all, but following a
> >morality totally orthogonal to any principal which would make sense to
> >normal humans. Part of why the get so little attention is that they are
> >so bizare.
>
> This is way too close to "they're evil just because they are" for my
> comfort. People need realistic and understandable goals, or they
> become cardboard cut-outs.
OK, here is an idea for an outsider Void Engineer Barabbi:
He is a compassionate, nice guy who is distressed with the amount of
pain, fear and darkness in the world (this is why he happily joined
the Technocracy and has been totally loyal until recently). His main
field is theoretical physics, where he has been working on defining
the paradigm at CERN. He tried to escape from all the pain of everyday
life through pure math and physics, but gradually came to realize that
something was wrong; the universe seemed flawed on a basic level!
There were broken symmetries, quantum chaos and entropy inherent in
the laws of physics. The universe was sick from the core, the pain
would never end whatever the Technocracy did.
In his desperation he suddenly had an idea: there might be a way out
of this horrible trap. What if the universe as we know it isn't the
real universe? Or rather, it isn't the finished universe? According to
the Standard Model the vacuum energy is defined by the Higgs field,
and it *might* become trapped in a "false vacuum". What if our
universe is just a brief period of false reality before the real
reality begins? According to theory, a false vacuum is apparently
stable, but once a part of it decays into true vacuum it will catalyze
the change of all vacuum into true vacuum, releasing titanic amounts
of energy, changing the properties of physics and creating a new
universe. The old universe will be eaten by a spreading shockwave,
moving at lightspeed, converting the old into the new.
So the Engineer began to plan how to bring about the Decay Event, in
order to end all the unnecessary pain and horror of the universe. It
would of course annihilate everything known to humanity, but that
would be a small price to pay to end all pain and bring the true
universe into life. Right now he is quietly calculating how to set up
an accelerator experiment powerful enough to push the false vacuum
over the edge; most likely it can be done using more cleverness than
force, he reasons. And then there will be no problems left to solve.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
a...@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
RemiNobles
I've been looking at this topic for a while and I have a comment.
Have any of you read Dr. Faustus? Either the Goethe or Marlowe versions are
okay. In Faustus, the title character makes a deal with the Devil for power.
Some Nephandi, especially Infernalists, can fall into this mindset.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remi Nobles, formerly of the Order of Hermes, House Fortunae.
Desperatley wanting to crackle with Amibent power.
Sauron
On 9 Mar 1998 21:56:13 GMT, remin...@aol.com (RemiNobles) wrote:
>I've been looking at this topic for a while and I have a comment.
>
>Have any of you read Dr. Faustus? Either the Goethe or Marlowe versions are
>okay. In Faustus, the title character makes a deal with the Devil for power.
>Some Nephandi, especially Infernalists, can fall into this mindset.
That's why I said infernalists are the easiest to understand-maybe
they think their dark masters will actually condescend to save them
when the world experiences heat death. It's the Ka'Lishaa that I
don't get, unless they're all being brainwashed through psychological
torture. Or the Wyrm-worshippers-them I *really* don't get.
man...@geocities.com
In article <35038f1d...@news.communique.net>,
sau...@cmq.com (Sauron) wrote:
> That's why I said infernalists are the easiest to understand-maybe
> they think their dark masters will actually condescend to save them
> when the world experiences heat death. It's the Ka'Lishaa that I
> don't get, unless they're all being brainwashed through psychological
> torture. Or the Wyrm-worshippers-them I *really* don't get.
Well, I had a Black Spiral explain Wyrm beliefs to my players something like
this.
All things happen in cycles, including phases of existance. This phase of
existance has gone wrong, due to to unbalanced Weaver. They only way to save
reality is to bring about the end of the cycle as quickly as possible, so a
new one may start. If they don't things will get worse and worse and when the
cycle ends it may end forever, and nothing will follow on after.
As far as she was concerned the Wyrm was not mad at all, but following its
origainal duty as the maintainer of balance. The balance has become so skewed
that the only way to restore it is to destory everything and start again.
Gaia is terminally ill, and the only way to save her is to kill her so she
may be reborn.
Pollution and corruption are used to try to break down the Weaver-oriented
system. If mankinds technology and society did work perfectly, the Weaver
would have won already. Its only beacuse of all the downsides that people
oppose the "progress" that would otherwise consume the planet.
Mant
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Anders Sandberg
sau...@cmq.com (Sauron) writes:
> It's the Ka'Lishaa that I don't get, unless they're all being
> brainwashed through psychological torture.
Try my writeup of the Cult of Nun
(http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/Mage/Egypt/Nephandi.html). They don't
have a good reason, none whatsoever. If they had a reason, it would be
anathema to the fundamental irrationality and chaos they desire.
Many of the Outsider Nephandi take the easy way out - why care? Just
do it. They might start out as nihilists or slightly deranged people,
but the service to the Outer Things give their lives a kind of
meaning, at the expense of their rationality.
Of course, there are some very rational Outsider Nephandi who know
exactly what they are doing and still want it. Maybe they think the
New Order (when the Things eat the Great Wheel and replace it with
something incomprehensible) will be an improvement, or the next
logical step ("See it as evolution in action on a cosmic scale").
bruce h. nagel
On 5 Mar 1998 11:29:51 -0600, hol...@xochi.tezcat.com (Daniel B.
Holzman) wrote:
>There's plenty of sane players who play a variety of sorts of Nephandi
>for a variety of reasons. ANd you've completely managed to miss the
>internal mindset of all Nephandi, even the ones you managed to partially
>describe in your diatribe.
{snip}
>But the thing you absolutely miss about the Nephandi is that they're not
>"resigned" to destoying the WoD at all. It is incorrect to exclude them
>from the people who believe they're doing something ultimately good. They
>actually believe, for a variety of reasons, that such destruction is our Best
>Destiny, with the same fervency and ernesty that other Magi follow their
>visions of Ascencion.
Well, one good example, from the Euthanatos barabbi: the idea that
this world must be destroyed, utterly, for a new one to take its
place. Or, possibly, that no world at all is better than this world.
Many religions suggest that the physical world is evil, and that
escape from it is a worthwhile goal. Some aspects of Buddhism teach
that the physical world is an illusion, so what is the harm in
destroying an illusion?
Just a few thoughts on the matter.
(And why do the Nephandi threads keep getting me to post?)
lost...@innocent.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.
the damned."
TMBG
LrdQuietus
>Sure, individual Dancers might have redeeming features, but so does the
>occasional individual Nephandi.
The Nephandi character I play on AOL is actually a really nice guy: he asks you
about your family, gives to charity, is happy and cheerfull, and tries to put
others into that mindset as well. The whole nihillistic "destroy the
universe"thing is really just a side-hobby to him, which goes to show that
good people can do very very bad things (Why the long face? You bored? Here,
I'll cheer you up! Let's go in the back yard and boil a cat! That's sounds fun,
doesn't it?).
Alistair J. R. Young
On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 06:43:45 GMT, in message <35038f1d...@news.communique.net>,
Sauron <sau...@cmq.com> (== sauron)
praised Shub-Internet thus:
> That's why I said infernalists are the easiest to understand-maybe
> they think their dark masters will actually condescend to save them
> when the world experiences heat death. It's the Ka'Lishaa that I
> don't get, unless they're all being brainwashed through psychological
> torture.
I think it's a little more thorough than that. The ones who make it
past the stage of being flunkies-who-don't-really-understand-what's-going-on,
IMO, have basically been stuffed into the Cauls and had the
consciousness of the Outsider Thing Of The Week forcibly imprinted on
their brains. They aren't working on anything even *vaguely*
resembling human thought any more - all that's left of their human
minds are a few tattered remnants of a personality kept around by the
Thing for protective coloration.
> Or the Wyrm-worshippers-them I *really* don't get.
I suppose a rather similar thing could apply, except that most of
their personality is left intact. It's just that the section dealing
with normal people's motivations has been shorted across with an
'Entropy This Way' sign. Except for those who have danced the Spiral,
of course, who like the Ka'lishaa have basically had chunks of their
mind scooped out and a shard of the Wyrm's own delightful personality
stuck in to fill the gap...
Alistair
--
Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum.
e-mail: avata...@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/
"Sysadmins can't be sued for malpractice, but surgeons don't have to deal with
patients who install new versions of their own innards."
Sauron
On 14 Mar 1998 11:43:34 +0000, Alistair J. R. Young
<avatar...@arkane.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> That's why I said infernalists are the easiest to understand-maybe
>> they think their dark masters will actually condescend to save them
>> when the world experiences heat death. It's the Ka'Lishaa that I
>> don't get, unless they're all being brainwashed through psychological
>> torture.
>
>I think it's a little more thorough than that. The ones who make it
>past the stage of being flunkies-who-don't-really-understand-what's-going-on,
>IMO, have basically been stuffed into the Cauls and had the
>consciousness of the Outsider Thing Of The Week forcibly imprinted on
>their brains. They aren't working on anything even *vaguely*
>resembling human thought any more - all that's left of their human
>minds are a few tattered remnants of a personality kept around by the
>Thing for protective coloration.
Which by extension means we can't understand the motivations of the
Outer things, either. Maybe this is why i'm so obsessed witht he
Nephandi and Demons-I keep trying to ascribe understandable motives to
them.
>
>> Or the Wyrm-worshippers-them I *really* don't get.
>
>I suppose a rather similar thing could apply, except that most of
>their personality is left intact. It's just that the section dealing
>with normal people's motivations has been shorted across with an
>'Entropy This Way' sign. Except for those who have danced the Spiral,
>of course, who like the Ka'lishaa have basically had chunks of their
>mind scooped out and a shard of the Wyrm's own delightful personality
>stuck in to fill the gap...
Well, the question then becomes "What's the difference between the
tow?" the obvious answer being "none" at which point we are again
plunged into confusion. Is there that much difference between ye Olde
Phallic Wyrm and Ye Olde Bestial Demons of Lust and Destruction?
>
>Alistair
>
>--
>Computational Thaumaturge -- Sysimperator, dominus retis deusque machinarum.
>e-mail: avata...@arkane.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.arkane.demon.co.uk/
>"Sysadmins can't be sued for malpractice, but surgeons don't have to deal with
> patients who install new versions of their own innards."
____________________________________________________________
Patrick Baldwin
Sauron wrote:
>
>Well, the question then becomes "What's the difference between the
>tow?" the obvious answer being "none" at which point we are again
>plunged into confusion. Is there that much difference between ye Olde
>Phallic Wyrm and Ye Olde Bestial Demons of Lust and Destruction?
>>
This is a theme I have been working with in my story. For me, the
real difference is that demons are a "human" evil. They need us. They
feed off ofour emotions, and in some cases are created from our belief.
They are for the most part High Umbral beings, personifications of ideas
that have become more complez as the centuries have passed. Some of them
may have been spirits that simply fitted themselves to the mold so as to
gain the power that came with it, other may be completely constructs of the
human mind, contructs that gain a life of their own in the High Umbra.
The thing is, demons are concered with humanity. They may not like us,
and our individual lives matter little if at all to them, but Humanity
as a whole does.
The Wyrm is not a human evil. It doesn't give a damn about humanity.
It wants to destroy everything, but since it is mad, and it's powers
have fractued along with it's personality, it cannot simply destroy
with it's will alone. And it is bound into the Pattern Web, so it
must work within it to destroy it. All the icky corruption stuff the
Wyrm does, it does with the sole purpose of furthering the destruction
of everything. It is Entropy gone mad, is is the disorder in the closed
system of the universe that somehow has decided it not only WILL increase,
but that it wants too. Humans are just another thing to be corrupted and
destroyed, just like plants, animals, and the earth.
-Patrick Baldwin