ghoul embraced
ANML TR
that was just embraced by a gangrel. How do I make up a new character sheet. Do
I enhance stats he already has? Do I treat him like a new character (Just with
the same charm and name)? Any help PLEASE! thanks
AdamRLee
Here is what I have done in the past. Add one dot to each of your primary and
secondary attributes (assuming you made the ghoul as 6/4/3) this represents the
heightened capabilities of a vampire. SUBTRACT one dot of potence, as that is
the result of vitae interaction with the human body, and isn't a true
discipline per se. Now add three clan disciplines (or spread them out if you
are role playing the transition, generally to make this fair I have them
develop when they are most needed, and not before.) or four if you are sabbat.
As far as Attributes are concerned, well, you had a bank of more freebies to
begin with so you're stuck there with what you have. Willpower virtues and
humanity will most likey stay the same, but if you have adopted a path for some
reason, i suggest either recalculating them (keep the same number of dots above
your courage rating, but if that goes up in redoing them then so should your
willpower) or following the rules for changing paths in VRev (i think, it might
have been in the Sabbat guide)
that's my thoughts on the matter.
Adam
Who is never considered Junk Male.
>>that was just embraced by a gangrel.
>>How do I make up a new character sheet.
Okay, we're going to first assume that your
ghoul was initially made as a human; 6/4/3 ATT
11/7/4 ABL 7 VIR and 5 WILLPOWER.
There are 3 qualities that vampires have that need
to be addressed on the character sheet when your ghoul is embraced.
The first is your enhanced Attributes. Add 1/1/0 to represent this. (I don't
recommend adding 2/2/1 to your Abilities as those are things you learn -- or,
you could add some of those points to at least your Talents, to represent some
raw edge you've developed).
The second issue are your Disciplines. Some people make the arguement that the
enhanced Potence of a ghoul is due to the vitae and living blood
intermingling... blah blah blah, that's all nice and good, but if you've spent
any amount of time developing your ghoul, you probably have more than one dot
of Potence (and another Discipline). So to fix the situation, I suggest that if
you have more than that one dot of Potence, you /can/ keep it, _but_ it counts
toward your starting total. Nice idea, huh? It strikes that middle ground of
reason, especially since you've spent you XP's already on raising your Potence
in the first place...
The last and certainly the most important are your Virtues. Being a Gangrel,
chances are you'll probably still be on Humanity (which shouldn't be a problem)
but if for some awful reason you choose a Path of Enlightenment, I suggest you
go purchase the Guide to the Sabbat and follow the conversion rules therein.
I hope that helps. Have a nice day!
C. Robin, Esq.
eMail: Saint...@aol.com
"Heck, if _I_ were a vampire, I'd feed off of me!"
Greg Deych
>Hi, I am semi new to list and roll playing, so I have a question about my ghoul
>that was just embraced by a gangrel. How do I make up a new character sheet. Do
>I enhance stats he already has? Do I treat him like a new character (Just with
>the same charm and name)? Any help PLEASE! thanks
Unless there was a significant time lapse between the embrace and the
current time, your character is exactly the same as it was before.
You don't get extra abilities, attributes and disciplines immidiately,
it all needs to be purchased with experience points.
VTJBerryhv
>>ghoul
>>that was just embraced by a gangrel. How do I make up a new character sheet.
>>Do
>>I enhance stats he already has? Do I treat him like a new character (Just
>>with
>>the same charm and name)? Any help PLEASE! thanks
>
>and
>secondary attributes (assuming you made the ghoul as 6/4/3) this represents
>the
>heightened capabilities of a vampire. SUBTRACT one dot of potence, as that
>is
>the result of vitae interaction with the human body, and isn't a true
>discipline per se. Now add three clan disciplines (or spread them out if you
>are role playing the transition, generally to make this fair I have them
>develop when they are most needed, and not before.) or four if you are
>sabbat.
>As far as Attributes are concerned, well, you had a bank of more freebies to
>begin with so you're stuck there with what you have. Willpower virtues and
>humanity will most likey stay the same, but if you have adopted a path for
>some
>reason, i suggest either recalculating them (keep the same number of dots
>above
>your courage rating, but if that goes up in redoing them then so should your
>willpower) or following the rules for changing paths in VRev (i think, it
>might
>have been in the Sabbat guide)
>
>that's my thoughts on the matter.
>
I take a less mechanical approach to this situation (which doesn't necessarily
mean that I'm right). I don't think that comparing the character creation
rules for ghouls and vampires is meaningful, because a starting vampire isn't
someone who just got Embraced last night.
I *might* let someone have an extra dot or two for their character's
Attributes, but I would not let them take three dots in clan disciplines.
Disciplines have to be learned or taught. Disciplines are not obtained through
the process of being Embraced. As a matter of fairness to the player whose
character just got Embraced, I might give a discount on the XP cost of the
first three dots of disciplines.
Oh, and an Embraced ghoul gets to keep the dot of Potence. This is in the Q&A
section at the beginning of the Vampire Storytellers Handbook.
Daniel Livingston
> I take a less mechanical approach to this situation (which doesn't necessarily
> mean that I'm right). I don't think that comparing the character creation
> rules for ghouls and vampires is meaningful, because a starting vampire isn't
> someone who just got Embraced last night.
>
> I *might* let someone have an extra dot or two for their character's
> Attributes, but I would not let them take three dots in clan disciplines.
> Disciplines have to be learned or taught. Disciplines are not obtained through
> the process of being Embraced. As a matter of fairness to the player whose
> character just got Embraced, I might give a discount on the XP cost of the
> first three dots of disciplines.
Right. Just because starting vampire PC's *do* have more dots than humans doesn't
mean that all vampires have more dots. PC's have already been around as vampires
for 20-50 years, and that easily explains the dot gap between them and humans. A
new embrace only gains the potential to acquire the increased abilities of
vampires, but does not immediately gain any abilitites.
> Oh, and an Embraced ghoul gets to keep the dot of Potence. This is in the Q&A
> section at the beginning of the Vampire Storytellers Handbook.
But this seems sort of silly that a ghoul-to-vampire keeps the Potence without
penalty, because then what Ventrue or Tremere or Toreador (or any vampire, for
that matter) would *not* have one dot in Potence? Wouldn't any smart vampire be
sure to ghoul the prospective progeny first in order to give him the free Potence?
The only adequate solutions to this are, as one poster suggested, giving them the
Potence but counting it against the vampire's 3 starting disciplines, or ruling
the Potence is a product of vitae/biological interaction and when the body dies
the Potence effect is lost. The problem with the first solution is that if one
roleplays the accumulation of vampiric abilities, there really is no 3 starting
dots in disciplines for the Potence to ount against. One has still gained the
Potence for free. So I think the latter option is the best solution, especially
since I believe the vitae/biology interaction theory of the Potence is canon. Of
course then this contradicts the other canon you are citing, but consistency and
logical rigor were never WW stongpoints.
Dan
St. George
> Right. Just because starting vampire PC's *do* have more dots than
> humans doesn't mean that all vampires have more dots. PC's have
> already been around as vampires for 20-50 years, and that easily
> explains the dot gap between them and humans. A new embrace only
> gains the potential to acquire the increased abilities of vampires,
> but does not immediately gain any abilitites.
20-50 years? Where do you get this from? It also makes next to no
sense given how experience works.
--
Johnny Mayall But the lies we live will always be
joh...@prometheus.frii.com confessed in the stories we tell.
prometheus.frii.com/~johnny/ -Orson Scott Card
Bruce Baugh
>20-50 years? Where do you get this from? It also makes next to no
>sense given how experience works.
Keep in mind that the level of intense experience common to PCs, with a
great deal of exertion and drama, is unusual. Most characters of any
sort get by much more quietly most of the time.
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
St. George
> >20-50 years? Where do you get this from? It also makes next to no
> >sense given how experience works.
>
> Keep in mind that the level of intense experience common to PCs, with a
> great deal of exertion and drama, is unusual. Most characters of any
> sort get by much more quietly most of the time.
Oh, absolutely. But still, an active vampire can easily gain in excess
of 10xp a month. (And this is conservative -- most sessions I've seen
that hand out 3-5xp only cover a night or two.) Over a twenty year
period, that's 2,400xp. Even cutting that in half by factoring a slow
down of activity once a vampire gets over his undead puberty of sorts,
that's still one hell of a lot of xp.
How does this even remotely reconcile with starting player vampires
having been embraced 20 to 50 years ago? This implies that it takes 20
to 50 years to learn 3 or 4 discipline levels.
Kainesh
St. George wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Bruce Baugh wrote:
>
>> >20-50 years? Where do you get this from? It also makes next to no
>> >sense given how experience works.
>>
>> Keep in mind that the level of intense experience common to PCs, with a
>> great deal of exertion and drama, is unusual. Most characters of any
>> sort get by much more quietly most of the time.
>
>Oh, absolutely. But still, an active vampire can easily gain in excess
>of 10xp a month. (And this is conservative -- most sessions I've seen
>that hand out 3-5xp only cover a night or two.) Over a twenty year
>period, that's 2,400xp. Even cutting that in half by factoring a slow
>down of activity once a vampire gets over his undead puberty of sorts,
>that's still one hell of a lot of xp.
>
>How does this even remotely reconcile with starting player vampires
>having been embraced 20 to 50 years ago? This implies that it takes 20
>to 50 years to learn 3 or 4 discipline levels.
If you consider the mortality rate amongst most PCs, it seems likely that
the "foolish upstarts" as many elders may view PCs die far before the
acquired their first thousand XP. XP is generally associated with risk in
almost every gaming system. It seems to me that most vampires that survive
beyond their undead Puberty were naturally cautious, before they learn to be
even more reserved.
VTJBerryhv
>without
>penalty, because then what Ventrue or Tremere or Toreador (or any vampire,
>for
>that matter) would *not* have one dot in Potence? Wouldn't any smart vampire
>be
>sure to ghoul the prospective progeny first in order to
That assumes that vampires think in terms of the game system. All the stuff
with dots is artificial. A real vampire wouldn't be likely to think that way.
Plus, a sire might not want his new childe to have Potence at all. Would you
want your rebellious teenage son to have superhuman strength?
VTJBerryhv
>sense given how experience works.
I think that 50 years was in V2. VRev states that PCs are assumed to have been
vampires for no more than 25 years.
The original point is valid, though. A PC vampire has been around long enough
to be released by his/her sire, to build up a herd, to develop contacts and
allies and influences, etc.
VTJBerryhv
>of 10xp a month. (And this is conservative -- most sessions I've seen
>that hand out 3-5xp only cover a night or two.) Over a twenty year
>period, that's 2,400xp. Even cutting that in half by factoring a slow
>down of activity once a vampire gets over his undead puberty of sorts,
>that's still one hell of a lot of xp.
>
Yes, but that's a game system. White Wolf isn't trying to say that vampires
would really gain disciplines and other traits that fast. VtM contemplates
that you're going to run a chronicle with a definite beginning and end. XPs
are a way of letting players develop their characters, not an attempt to create
a "model" to simulate what wold really happen if vampires were real.
If "real" vampires used the XP system, every 10 year old vampire would have all
5s on his CS.
>How does this even remotely reconcile with starting player vampires
>having been embraced 20 to 50 years ago? This implies that it takes 20
>to 50 years to learn 3 or 4 discipline levels.
If you think about it, that is reasonable. Disciplines aren't supposed to be
easy to learn.
If I recall correctly, White Wolf's NPC characters are based on a system that
uses the square root of the character's age to calculate the total number of
disciplines. Using that formula, a 16 year old vampire would have 4 dots of
disciplines and a 25 year old vampire would have 5 dots of disciplines. A 200
year old vampire would have 14-15 dots.
Daniel Livingston
Yeah, they don't think in dots, but every vampire knows ghouls are supernaturally
stronger than humans. And if experimentation proves that ghouls-to-vampires
retain that superhuman strength while humans-to-vampires do not get it, any
vampire would have the resources that players have to make the same judgment in
this situation. A think a real vampire *would* be likely to think this way,
especially since many vampires create progeny specifically as cohorts in their
Kindred struggles. They would want them stronger rather than not, especially if
it is at no price.
And nobody chooses to have rebellious teenagers. Vampires choose their progeny,
and will not choose someone who is overtly rebellious or hostile to them unless
the vampire is perverse or desperate. They give potence to a childe they hope
will be faithful and useful, and whether or no the childe turns out that way is
another matter.
Dan
deadt...@my-deja.com
"Kainesh" <leeb...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> If you consider the mortality rate amongst most PCs, it seems likely
that
> the "foolish upstarts" as many elders may view PCs die far before the
> acquired their first thousand XP. XP is generally associated with
risk in
> almost every gaming system. It seems to me that most vampires that
survive
> beyond their undead Puberty were naturally cautious, before they learn
to be
> even more reserved.
So basically, Survival of the Least Fit, is what you're suggesting?
Truly, the meek shall inherit the earth. How very biblical.
-David
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sam Altersitz
vampires
would really gain disciplines and other traits that fast. VtM contemplates
that you're going to run a chronicle with a definite beginning and end. XPs
are a way of letting players develop their characters, not an attempt to
create
a "model" to simulate what wold really happen if vampires were real.>
Really? I would have thought the STORIES would have a definite beginning
and end. The Chronicle may start with the first story, bet each successive
story adds to the chronicle. If you stop playing for almost a year (like I
have been forced to do) and start up again (a few more weeks YAY!), in the
same setting with the same characters, does that mean you start up a new
Chronicle?
<If "real" vampires used the XP system, every 10 year old vampire would have
all
5s on his CS.>
Not always true. When you have down time for a prolonged period (say you
tell the players that it has been 2 years since the last story), they do not
gain XP during that downtime. It is assumed that XP would come from doing
something with the character that affects the character more than down time.
Hence the reason you play the game.
<If you think about it, that is reasonable. Disciplines aren't supposed to
be
easy to learn.>
True. And when you look at the XP cost for gaining a 5 in a discipline (I
believe it is current rating x5 for clan <20XP>, or current x7 for non clan
<28>, or if you are caitiff current x6 for all disciplines <24>) that can
take a while to get to. Especially if you have to build the discipline up
from first level (using clan disciplines as an example it goes 5, 10, 15, 20
XP...that means you have to spend 50 XP to build up from level one, not
counting the 10 XP it takes to get a new discipline if you didn't already
have it to begin with, and you can only go up one dot per story), besides,
most players want their characters to learn other things besides their
disciplines. Saving XP for disciplines is good, but it can seem to make you
weaker in the short run, but if you save a lot, you can jump in power very
quickly (say gaining three new disciplines after the end of one particular
story or something).
SAM
XP hoarder...well it's kinda hard to be that when you have ST'ed non stop
for your group for over 4 years...
Raven
Daniel Livingston wrote in message <39072CA4...@colorado.edu>...
>
>Yeah, they don't think in dots, but every vampire knows ghouls are
supernaturally
>stronger than humans. And if experimentation proves that ghouls-to-vampires
>retain that superhuman strength while humans-to-vampires do not get it, any
>vampire would have the resources that players have to make the same
judgment in
>this situation. A think a real vampire *would* be likely to think this way,
>especially since many vampires create progeny specifically as cohorts in
their
>Kindred struggles. They would want them stronger rather than not,
especially if
>it is at no price.
Just one thing...no Vampire would ever use Right of Progeny on
experimentation. At least not in the Camarilla - it's different in the
Sabbat, but they don't Embrace ghouls, anyways. You get that one in a
million chance to beg a favour from the Prince and get the Right of
Progeny...you're not going to be able to experiment with ghouls and humans.
You're just going to take the mortal that you've been dying to make one of
the Undead, and Embrace them. Besides...you might not nessisarily be able
to tell the difference with just one dot of Potence. It's significantly
stronger, but someone with 5 Strength is still probably stronger than
someone with 1 Strength and 1 Potence. Plus, if you're comparing
vampires...they'll probably almost instinctually boost their Strength with
Blood, so...
Netchurch sucks. ;)
A. Wade Lahoda
wla...@home.com
VTJBerryhv
>vampires
>would really gain disciplines and other traits that fast. VtM contemplates
>that you're going to run a chronicle with a definite beginning and end. XPs
>are a way of letting players develop their characters, not an attempt to
>create
>a "model" to simulate what wold really happen if vampires were real.>
>
>Really? I would have thought the STORIES would have a definite beginning
>and end. The Chronicle may start with the first story, bet each successive
>story adds to the chronicle.
Yes, really. VtM contemplates that the chronicle will tell one overall story.
Obviously, there's nothing wrong with running an open-ended chronicle, but one
of the things that you would have to think about as ST is XP accumulation.
Over the course of a couple years, a neonate could develop elder stats.
White Wolf offers some excellent comments about what they call "long games,"
including some tips on dealing with XP accumulation over a couple years. This
is in the Storytellers Handbook at pages 103-07. As White Wolf states, "Most
of the existing Storyteller guidelines are for games that will run for a single
plot arc."
>If you stop playing for almost a year (like I
>have been forced to do) and start up again (a few more weeks YAY!), in the
>same setting with the same characters, does that mean you start up a new
>Chronicle?
I'm not sure what you mean. You could obviously start a new chronicle using
the players and setting from a prior chronicle.
><If "real" vampires used the XP system, every 10 year old vampire would have
>all
>5s on his CS.>
>
>Not always true. When you have down time for a prolonged period (say you
>tell the players that it has been 2 years since the last story), they do not
>gain XP during that downtime. It is assumed that XP would come from doing
>something with the character that affects the character more than down time.
>Hence the reason you play the game.
Again, you're thinking in terms of the game system. What is "downtime" for a
chronicle is not "downtime" for a vampire, unless the vampire is in torpor.
The vampire would still have experiences during the two year "downtime." Why
wouldn't the vampire continue to improve his or her skills?
Kaiden Fox
OK, the Potence is the result of Vampire Blood.
But, don't you have to loose that blood to become a Vampire?
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Daniel Livingston
All the ghouls that have been created to date already constitute a body of
experimental evidence. Any researcher can conduct an experiment simply by
collating data on existing ghouls and from it drawing an hypothesis.
And, if you do finally manage to get the coveted Right of Progeny, are you
going to risk it on some human, or rather on a human whom you have watched,
manipulated, and ghouled, and who has proven his worth to you? The embracing
practices of the Camarilla actually favor tested ghouls over uninitiated
mortals (despite Cain's law against embracing ghouls). And wouldn't it make
sense that one prepare the "mortal that you've been dying to make one of the
Undead" for unlife among the damned by making him a ghoul first, while awaiting
either the appropriate time or the permission to embrace him?
And I think one could *definitely* tell the difference a single dot of Potence
makes. One dot Potence is equivalent (actually a bit better as it bars 1s
because there is no roll) to two dots Strength. A sickly human with Strength 1
who suddenly aquires the capacity to perform Strength 3 feats while retaining
the sickly-looking body will *definitely* be apparent. And a Strength 5 who
suddenly has truly superhuman strength will be clearly noticeable as well.
Given the five dot range of human strength, a difference of two dots is a
change of 40% the total range of human strength. I think that significant a
change will not go unnoticed.
Dan
Sam Altersitz
story.
Obviously, there's nothing wrong with running an open-ended chronicle, but
one
of the things that you would have to think about as ST is XP accumulation.
Over the course of a couple years, a neonate could develop elder stats.>
I dunno. The story of the chronicle is an overall story. Much like the
story of the human race is an overall story with you and me in it. When we
die, does the story of the human race end? No it keeps going, at least
until man nukes himself out of existence, or something else happens to make
mankind extinct. As far as we know right now, the human story is very open
ended. As for XP accumulation, I don't seem to have a problem with that in
my games. Most stories take a night or two to go through (some take longer,
but most are short enough to get done within a night or two), in my games.
So if you figure I gave out max XP (which I don't unless the player did
something really fantastic), a 2 night (real time) story would yield 11XP.
Granted if you play games like this every night, then the PC will gain mucho
experience by the end of a year of playing. But most of us have work and
other aspects of our lives that make gaming EVERY night impossible. MHO of
course.
<I'm not sure what you mean. You could obviously start a new chronicle
using
the players and setting from a prior chronicle.>
My chronicle is a series of stories, and in the case of the last story, and
the next one, they revolve around a specific theme. These stories are
actually a series, the second one being a sequel to the last one. They are
2 different stories, however, not just chapters in the same story. Think of
it like Star Wars and the Empire Strikes Back. While each story was related
to each other, they did each have their own beginning and end. We have been
playing the same chronicle for over 4 years, and Haven't had MASSIVE XP
overload. One story did take over a week to finish, so that one had some
large XP totals by the end, but for the most part, the players have to save
their XP for at least two stories if they want to raise their disciplines.
What I am saying is the chronicle wouldn't change, unless you moved it to a
new area, and changed the way things were played.
<Again, you're thinking in terms of the game system. What is "downtime" for
a
chronicle is not "downtime" for a vampire, unless the vampire is in torpor.
The vampire would still have experiences during the two year "downtime."
Why
wouldn't the vampire continue to improve his or her skills?>
Isn't downtime when the PC's are supposed to learn their new abilities by
spending their XP? Maybe for a massive downtime like 10 years or so, I
would give some XP, but for the most part I feel that downtime isn't the
same experience as playing. Mundane things happen during downtime, the
things that can have a major impact on the PC's happen during stories. If I
make the downtime 2 years (as an example), and the players had wished to
learn a new discipline, or raise one they had, it is assumed (in our games)
that they are using the downtime to learn the new level. In the case of the
downtime between the last story and the next (only a few hours) the players
were not allowed to spend their XP, only because they would not have any
time to devote to the learning experience. Every game treats downtime
differently, this is just how ours is treated.
SAM
The lights are much brighter three
You can forget all your troubles
Forget all your cares
And go Downtime!
Everything's waiting for you!
Downtime!
(sorry had to do something. this is in no way making fun of Downtown, a
song I love)
Kaiden Fox
VTJBerryhv <vtjbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>The vampire would still have experiences during the two year "downtime." Why
>wouldn't the vampire continue to improve his or her skills?
Because he is a Dead, Static creature, kept alive by the cruelties of an immortal existance that robs them of the
dynamism of life?
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Deirdre M. Brooks
No, that's just a pathetic excuse to throw at players.
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xe...@teleport.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
dagon
by making them pay [dots in XP]; i.e.
if a character has 27 dots in various
disciplines, he'd have to pay at least 27 XP;
similarly with attributes and abilities. It
dissuades outragoues accumulation in
one field.