Antediluvian Name Origins
talm...@mind-warp.com
The link has since gone dead (much to my dismay, as I was going to
copy down the page's contents).
My questions are threefold.
a) Does anyone have a copy of that particular document, which details
how Malkav was named (and no, it has nothing to do with mal = bad...
it was something about angels).
b) Does anyone know the origins of the other Ante's names, or the
names of the clans? Remember, these are not one and the same, so I
don't want to hear a bunch of people saying that there is no
distinction.
c) How about the names of some of the bloodlines? I mean, "Daughters
of Cacophony" and "Children of Osiris" are fairly self-explanatory,
but what about "Kiasyd" or "Nagaraja"?
If anyone knows, I'd like to know as well.
Simon Kiasyd
Dr. Psycho
names within the WoD. It doesn't say anything about Malkav's name origin having
anything to do with angels, though. But it's still rather useful.
http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html
----- ----- -----
~The AOL address is blocked, but you can annoy the psycho at
KBar...@rocketmail.com
Worlds of Darkness: http://members.xoom.com/fyre228/
talm...@mind-warp.com
"Dr. Psycho" wrote:
> On the Tremere Virtual Chantry site, there is a listing of origins of various
> names within the WoD. It doesn't say anything about Malkav's name origin having
> anything to do with angels, though. But it's still rather useful.
> http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html
Yeah, I've read those, and most of them are wrong. The Malkavian name origin was an
official source... I can't remember who, but it was the person who actually came up
with the clan name, I believe. The actual creation of the name was based on a word
meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
Simon Kiasyd
nasri andreas hajj
[stuff deleted]
>with the clan name, I believe. The actual creation of the name was based on a word
>meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
You probably are thinking of the Hebrew 'mal'ak', meaning 'messanger'. This
is the word that got translated to 'angel' in english varients of the Bible.
- Nasri.
Kish
talm...@mind-warp.com wrote in message <381E10EC...@mind-warp.com>...
>b) Does anyone know the origins of the other Ante's names, or the
>names of the clans? Remember, these are not one and the same, so I
>don't want to hear a bunch of people saying that there is no
>distinction.
Assamite: Comes from assassin.
Brujah: Spanish for witch.
Followers of Set: For some reason, this makes me think of an old Egyptian
god...
Giovanni: Common Italian name, also the surname of the President of the
first Bank of America.
Lasombra: The shadows.
Nosferatu: Something about a movie.
Toreador=I'm sure you can figure that one out.
Tremere=to tremble.
Ventrue=fat merchant.
>
>c) How about the names of some of the bloodlines? I mean, "Daughters
>of Cacophony" and "Children of Osiris" are fairly self-explanatory,
>but what about "Kiasyd" or "Nagaraja"?
Naga Raja: Serpent kings.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
talm...@mind-warp.com
Parliament of Savages wrote:
> >The actual creation of the name was based on a word
> >>meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
>
> Hey, let's not fool ourselves here.
>
> I like WW as much as the next guy, and I think the essence of the world of
> darkness is very compelling. But the Names of the
> clans/antediluvians/tribes/traditions/guilds/kiths etc were all chosen because
> they sounded cool... nothing more.
That's great that you think so, and I applaud your ability to type a lot of words
to form a small idea.
However, my curiousity over the subject of names is just that... curiousity. I just
want to know why those names were chosen and what they were based on. I'm not
saying someone spent hours researching each and every name to come up with
something truly well-done, but I'm sure at least some of the names had more thought
put into them than "What rhymes with dolemite?"
As for the Malkavian/angel thing, like I said, it was on a web site, and it was
written by a developer. I'm not saying "I think it means something about angels,"
I'm saying "according to the person who named the Malkavians, the name was taken
from a word that meant 'angel'." Someone already posted the Hebrew word for
messenger, and I think that had something to do with it, but a long time ago
someone posted the actual site, which has since vanished.
So before you decide to go off and say it's a bunch of bunk, try reading the post
instead of skimming it. You might find the answers lying amongst the words you
passed over in your fervor to try and make someone look naive.
Simon Kiasyd
Vladomir deNoir
> The link has since gone dead (much to my dismay, as I was going to
> copy down the page's contents).
This was a post on the Vampire forum at WW's site. Is this the one you
wanted?
----
This is a little info on The name of Malkav I saw on the The Malkavian
Web Page. I think you might be able to still find it on there. The new
site is: http://thunder.prohosting.com/~malkav/ Now that I said where I
have found this tid bit of an interview with Daniel Greenberg creator of
the Malkavian Clan book. Of course this all may be a lie.
have you done any research into the name malkavian itself? you know
the meaning behind name like brujah means this and ventrue means this
and toreador means that. we did most of the other clans ages ago but
only our own clan was even remotly a mystery.....
Yes I have.
The obvious (and therefore wrong) interpretation is that it comes from
the Latin Mal, meaning bad, or abnormal. As in; the Malign,
Malevolent, Maladjusted Malcontent with the Maloderous Malady
Maliciously Maledicted me with Malapert Malaprops while suing me for
Malpractice.
Pretty obvious answer, huh? That means it's wrong. That derivation is
the official obfuscatory meaning, designed to confuse and confound our
foes (and friends) by giving them what they expect so they dig no
further.
So where do we dig next? Well, the secret message on the back of the
book was in Greek letters. Let's try Greek.
The next most obvious (and therefore just as wrong) interpretation is
that Malkav comes from the Greek Malakia, meaning disease.
(Theoretically, this is not the basis of the Latin Mal. Go figure.)
No, that derivation is another level of obfuscatory meanings, designed
to confuse and confound our foes (and friends) by reinforcing the earlier
meaning so they feel confident they know the Secret Name. And so
they dig no further.
No, to find the real roots of Malkav, we must look beyond the Greeks
to the Judaic root of the name. Malkav is pronounced slightly wrong.
The true name is Malak. Guess what a Malak is in Hebrew? Just guess.
Angel.
Yep, it's true. Angel (Auspex.) The secondary meaning of Malak is king
(Dominate). Malach means to vanish (Obfuscate).
The root word is Maal, which refers to one who commits a severe
transgression or trespass. A related word is Melechah, which means
barren lands,
Put it all together, and what do you get? The hidden, angelic
outlaw-king. (Who possibly resides in the barren lands).
Got it? Class dismissed. There will be a pop quiz Friday. Wait. Come
back. We're not done yet. You're all forced to stay after school for
pranking the principles. Time to learn more.
Say Malak out loud. What's it sound like? Any biblical scholars here?
How about fans of the Watchmen?
Molech.
That's right. One of Malkav's many aliases as he knocked around the
Middle East. Moloch the fiery god-demon of the Old Testament who
demands blood sacrifices. His shrine was in the suburbs of Jerusalem, in
alittle town called: Can you guess? Gehenna.
Class is REALLY dismissed now. Head for the hills! (Tomorrow's
lesson: The last Old Testament prophet is Malachi. Malachispends a lot
of time ranting to the local priests about the end of theworld, and
threatens them, saying "Behold, I will corrupt your seed, andspread
dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts." Yuk!Essay
question: Would that count as a prank? Extra Credit: Find the pageand
paragraph in the Malk Book that alludes to Malachi's colorful bit of
ecclesiastical fun. Hey kids! Bring this quote to Sunday School!)
From the Malkavian Web page: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~alik/ An
interview with Daniel Greenberg
--
Evil spelled Backwards is "live"
And we all want to do that
[[Rock & Rule]]
talm...@mind-warp.com
Vladomir deNoir wrote:
> > A while ago someone posted a link for the origin of the name "Malkav."
> > The link has since gone dead (much to my dismay, as I was going to
> > copy down the page's contents).
>
> This was a post on the Vampire forum at WW's site. Is this the one you
> wanted?
That was /exactly/ the article I was referring to. Thank you so much.
Simon Kiasyd
Parliament of Savages
>>meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
Hey, let's not fool ourselves here.
I like WW as much as the next guy, and I think the essence of the world of
darkness is very compelling. But the Names of the
clans/antediluvians/tribes/traditions/guilds/kiths etc were all chosen because
they sounded cool... nothing more.
In several places they took a perfectly good word and changed its spelling for
no real reason (bruja to Brujah, la sombra to Lasombra, and ventru to
Ventrue), not to mention applying essentially modern words to people who
purportedly walked the earth millenia ago.
I'm not saying they've done a bad thing, but there are basically two reasons
you might want to know the 'official' WoD reason they've chosen a name. You
might want to know if they've based the character/group on some historical or
mythical figure that you can do further research on yourself. That's well and
good, and if that's your reason, then more power to you! :)
You might also want to know because some mischevious Pooka told you that WW's
books are written by diligent fact-checkers and historical/religious/occult
authorities, and you want to make sure your game conforms to their careful
engineering... bzzzt! If this is your opinion, then find Harvey the Pooka and
wallop him!
Before I proceed let me say that I think WW's writers) are doing a fantastic
job... writing game supplements. (particularly since VtM revised, including
the Cam and Sab guides, which IMO were the best, most readable books WW has
printed yet, and I've been playing since the 1st edition VtM rulebook
But if you want to know where Malkav's name came from, it came from some
under-paid writer who thought it sounded cool, and that's a fine, fine way to
name something. Hell, Tolkien did it. :)
Why not just decide for your own game where the name came from? You can base it
in areas you are familiar with, and add a bit of personal creativity to your
group's roleplaying...
Just one guy talking.
-------------parliament-of-savages---------------------------------
Interested in Live-Action RP in the NE Pennsylvannia area?
Check out www.adventuring.com/adventuring/savages
Parliament of Savages
>post
>instead of skimming it. You might find the answers lying amongst the words
>you
>passed over in your fervor to try and make someone look naive.
Lighten up, Francis :)
I was just making a point. White wolfer's in general seem to take games too
seriously, and in doing so cheat themselves out of their own creativity. I
wasn't accusing you of being such, just indicating it because I think the point
needed to be made.
I tried to point out in the post that if you were just curious, then I thought
the search was a great idea. Maybe I didn't make that clear. I certainly had no
intention to offend.
Vladomir deNoir
> Simon Kiasyd
No problem. It's actually kind of a coincidence, since that is one of maybe
six posts I've ever saved from a White Wolf discussion..
Adamus
<kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Assamite: Comes from assassin.
Actually, Assamite comes from the name "Assam", or "Hassam", the
western pronouncation of Haqim. The westerners were unable to pronounce
Haqim's name correctly, and so the Children of Haqim became known as
the Hassam-ites, or Assamites.
The word "assassin" comes from the Ismaili sect called the
"Hashashiyyin", or the "Hashiyin" (which means "those who intoxicate
themselves with hash", an [undeserved] reputation for this sect of
Islamic fanatics). Read more about it on www.ismaili.net, in the
history-section.
Of course, the entire Assamite clan is based on the Hashashiyyin-sect.
Terms as "fida'i", "rafiq", "Alamut" and such are all derived from the
colorful history of this religious group.
Adamus
"All warfare is based on deception."
-- Sun Tzu
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Ratspaw
wrote:
>Assamite: Comes from assassin.
I had been under the impression that the name Assamite came from the
word Assamite, as in a person from Assam. Assam is one of the states
of India, on the the eastern tip between China and Myanmar.
(Incidentally, it borders the Indian state of Nagaland.) I had put
them naming an essentially Arabic clan after a state in India down to
bad geography, although for all I know Assam is a predominantly Muslim
region of India.
Ratspaw
Never express yourself more clearly than you think.
Ratspaw
<badamsx...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Actually, Assamite comes from the name "Assam", or "Hassam", the
>western pronouncation of Haqim. The westerners were unable to pronounce
>Haqim's name correctly, and so the Children of Haqim became known as
>the Hassam-ites, or Assamites.
Or this, which works considerably better.
Jon Hickman
# talm...@mind-warp.com wrote in message <381E10EC...@mind-warp.com>...
# >b) Does anyone know the origins of the other Ante's names, or the
# >names of the clans? Remember, these are not one and the same, so I
# >don't want to hear a bunch of people saying that there is no
# >distinction.
#
#
# Assamite: Comes from assassin.
Actually, Assam was a land near/in India and may be currently a state of India
(not sure). It is on the China-side of India, IIRC.
The Cappadocians are also named after an old land... Cappadocia, on the
eastern side of Asia Minor (eastern Turkey/Anatolia), known for it's
catacombs, IIRC.
Angela Christine
but when I saw a mythical "Malk" in another group I couldn't help but
think this could easily be woven into a Malkavians mythos.
This was originally posted to alt.pets.rodents, in the thread "God loves
Rats!" by pag...@my-dejaUNSPAMO.com.
>Among medieval Jews of Spain,
>Malkhuth (a female word meaning "Kingdom") was no less a womanly
>figure than Mary among Catholics. Malkhuth was prayed to by Jewish
>peasants & mystics as an intercessor to God. In THE ZOHAR of Saphed (the
>key Jewish mystical text) God was so peeved with humanity's conceits that
>he knew he would destroy the world in a moment of wrath if he ever looked
>on our putrified assholiness ever again, & so gave all his angelic hosts &
>all his weapons & all rule of the earth to Malkhuth who loved us so much
>she loved us even when were were being rotten. Now that's a Jewish myth
>without Christian parallel, though it was written down simultaneously in
>India in the DEVI MAHATMA which stated all the gods came to Durga one by
>one & gave her all their weapons & all their followers & their devotion &
>all rule of the cosmos. Durga was last of all divinities that came into
>being, & she ruled all that came before her. This was true of Malkhuth as
>well. An old Jewish saying, "That which comes last rules all that came
>before" explains why Eve came into being after Adam, whose soul she had
>been & whose helper she became (Eve by contrase required no helper because
>she was already perfection). In fact the discriptions of Durga of the Devi
>Mahatma and Malkhuth of the Zohar are almost identical. Durga was said to
>radiate with her thousand arms into all regions of the universe. Malkhuth,
>the Jewish Great Mother, was said to walk with her feet in Sheol, & her
>head in the heavens with the Moon as her crown -- for she was ruler of all
>that is above & all that is below.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the time it has taken you to read this,
your personal computer has become obsolete.
We Are The No-Brand Heroes!
>But if you want to know where Malkav's name came from, it came from some
>under-paid writer who thought it sounded cool, and that's a fine, fine way to
>name something. Hell, Tolkien did it. :)
Yeah..although Tolkien also invented his own language to justify the
cool names ;)
Brandon W. Easley
No-Brand Hero!
Parliament of Savages
>Yeah..although Tolkien also invented his own language to justify the
>cool names ;)
Not just one... more than 10 languages! :)
I just meant that according to his biography, he would create a character, and
then just sound out a few versions of the name. Once he had one that he liked,
he would 'find out' (invent) what it meant...
He was an amazingly creative fellow. I wish I could have known him. :(
We Are The No-Brand Heroes!
around here. I saw it on the list of classes and just laughed. I
wonder which of the three 'Elvish' languages it teaches.
Brandon W. Easley
No-Brand Hero
On 02 Nov 1999 18:00:21 GMT, pars...@aol.comLARP (Parliament of
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: "Dr. Psycho" wrote:
: > On the Tremere Virtual Chantry site, there is a listing of origins of various
: > names within the WoD. It doesn't say anything about Malkav's name origin having
: > anything to do with angels, though. But it's still rather useful.
: > http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html
: Yeah, I've read those, and most of them are wrong. The Malkavian name origin was an
: official source... I can't remember who, but it was the person who actually came up
: with the clan name, I believe. The actual creation of the name was based on a word
: meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
Care to identify which of the "most" are wrong?
Ben B.
nasri andreas hajj
>This probaly has nothing to do with the "real" origin of Malkav's name,
>but when I saw a mythical "Malk" in another group I couldn't help but
>think this could easily be woven into a Malkavians mythos.
>This was originally posted to alt.pets.rodents, in the thread "God loves
>Rats!" by pag...@my-dejaUNSPAMO.com.
Not surprising, since it merely is propagating a 700 year old hoax.
And is fairly misleading/misled.
>>Among medieval Jews of Spain,
>>Malkhuth (a female word meaning "Kingdom") was no less a womanly
>>figure than Mary among Catholics. Malkhuth was prayed to by Jewish
>>peasants & mystics as an intercessor to God. In THE ZOHAR of Saphed (the
>>key Jewish mystical text) God was so peeved with humanity's conceits that
The Zohar is a fabrication. Saphed recanted its truthfulness on his
death-bed and revealed that he had invented the entire thing. Nevertheless
it served as a foundation for much Hebraic mystical gnosticism.
[stuff deleted]
>>she was already perfection). In fact the discriptions of Durga of the Devi
>>Mahatma and Malkhuth of the Zohar are almost identical. Durga was said to
>>radiate with her thousand arms into all regions of the universe. Malkhuth,
>>the Jewish Great Mother, was said to walk with her feet in Sheol, & her
>>head in the heavens with the Moon as her crown -- for she was ruler of all
>>that is above & all that is below.
Malkhuth of the Zohar isn't an entity (not really), but a stage of
understanding the universe. It is the first stage of the sephirot, called
the Tree of Life, and supposedly a road to enlightenment (actually
'understanding of god' in the language of the sect).
You could toss it into the Malkavian legends, but it's big enough to build
entire chronicles around. Look what Anno did with Neon Genesis Evangelion.
- Nasri.
Manuel Gonzalez
talm...@mind-warp.com wrote:
>
>
> a) Does anyone have a copy of that particular document, which details
> how Malkav was named (and no, it has nothing to do with mal = bad...
> it was something about angels).
It's in Trinity:
Divis-malkav I think ;)
Manuel Gonzalez
Kish wrote:
> Giovanni: Common Italian name, also the surname of the President of the
> first Bank of America.
>
reminds me of the opera, especially the last scene.
>
> Lasombra: The shadows.
>
the shadow (singular). Yeah. I'm fucking anal. 11 more steps to go.
> Toreador=I'm sure you can figure that one out.
>
a common english butchery or "Torero"? Always made me laugh.
ShdwWlkr01
Brujah=corruption of bruja, witch, spanish
Gangrel=old english, vagrant
Giovanni=italian play about a ghost
Lasombra=the shadow, spanish
Malkavian, molech, to hide, moloch, counselor or king, malak, messenger or
angel, all hebrew
Nosferatu=nosferuti(sp?) romanian, ugly one, romanian term for a vampire
Ravnos=wolflike
Setite=set, greek form of sutehk, god of the desert, the sun, and evil at
various times
Toreador=spear carrier for a bullfighter, also the name of an old minoan mural
Tremere=to tremble, name of a house from Ars Magica
Tzimisce=?carrot stew, or scrambled/mixed up
Ventrue=feminine form of french for potbellied
Cappadocian=one from Cappadocia
Osirians=sets legendary brother, and sun god
Salubri=salubious, healing
Nagaraja=snake kings, also, the god of life and incarnation in hinduism
Kiasyd=kia sidhe, from the Ars Magica game, a powerful kind of unseelie faerie
Daughters of Caucophany= goddess of noise
Samedi=baron samedi, voodoo death god
Ahrimane=latin for bad idea... no wait, ahriman, god of darkness and evil in
Zoaroastrianism
Tim,
possessor of trivia, master of innacuracy
MoonFish
understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
> Nosferatu=nosferuti(sp?) romanian, ugly one, romanian term for a vampire
Literally, No-Sferatu = Un-Dead
MoonFish
999
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: Malkavian = the ones who shall survive, the ones who know, the ones who
: understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
: > Nosferatu=nosferuti(sp?) romanian, ugly one, romanian term for a vampire
: Literally, No-Sferatu = Un-Dead
Not exactly. Here's my take on it from my White Wolf Word "FAQ"
(http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~buckner/wordsfaq.txt).
NOSFERATU
This is a very tricky etymology, though I now believe I have a good idea
what it is. The word was popularized by its use in Bram Stoker's
_Dracula_ (1899), hence the title of Frank Murnau's silent film
_Nosferatu_ (which has led many to the entirely false conclusion that it's
the German word for vampire). Many post-Stokerian sources give meanings
such as "plague-bearer","not breathing", "not dead", and "an old Romanian
word for Devil." There seems to be a general sense that it is a Romanian
word, as suggested by the "-u" ending, although some also give a
"nosferat" as either an alternate form or a form inflected for different
grammatical number. These sources differ on whether "nosferat" is plural
and "nosferatu" singular or vice-versa, but I was inclined to discount
this since it is inconsistent with Romanian grammar. However, it now
appears that this could be an extremely garbled account of the distinction
between definite and indefinite forms of the Romanian noun. Most of the
above etymologies can be discounted due to their clear inconsistency
regarding one another, suggesting that they are mostly wild guesses, and
the fact that both the "plague-bearer" and "not breathing" glosses can
perhaps be seen to derive from rather doubtful attempts to find Latin or
even Greek morphemes within "Nosferatu". My guesses as to the logic
behind a few of these attempts:
nos-feratu <- "nos" (?) + Latin "*feratu" (from "fero", 'bear' or 'carry')
or more likely
nosferatu <- Greek "*nosophoros" (from "noso-" 'disease' + "phoros"
'bearer')
no-sferatu <- Latin "non" 'not' + Latin "spiratus" 'having breathed')
I have consulted a number of Romanian dictionaries and encyclopedias with
no success in finding "nosferatu". Likewise, I have asked several native
Romanians whether the word was familiar to them and none have recognized
it. This could imply that the word, if it really is Romanian at all, is
an archaic or little-known dialect expression or perhaps both. Another
possibility is that this form is spelled in a manner very different from
the standard Romanian form, which we will soon fruitfully explore. It is
also conspicuously absent from many books on Romanian folklore which have
been compiled from actual field studies, and I have never found a
reference which actually recounts any interview with a real live Romanian
in which "nosferatu" is used. Considering the extraordinary number of
Romanian terms for vampires and related creatures that have been
enumerated in such studies, this is odd indeed.
Fortunately, Leonard Wolf, in his _Annotated_Dracula_ (1975), identifies
Stoker's source for the word (which Wolf glosses as Romanian - "not dead",
pg. 193) as _The_Land_Beyond_the_Forest_ by Emily Gerard (1888). From an
excerpt in Wolf, this book appears to be a travel sketch in the classic
Victorian manner dealing with Transylvania. Unfortunately, I have never
found a copy, so this is as far as I have gotten along these lines.
At one point it was suggested by Carpathian native Triszna Leszczyc on
alt.vampyres that "nosferat" may be a corruption or foreign
misapprehension of a term "necurat" which is used as a euphemism when
referring to the Devil or assorted other evil beings. As it turns out,
while "necurat" appears not to be the source itself, a very similar word
may be.
Finally, while looking into the "necurat" hypothesis, I happened onto a
word in a Romanian dictionary that seems like it could be the source of
Gerard's "nosferatu," namely "nesuferit." The meaning as a noun is given
as "a nasty fellow", and, as an adjective, "unbearable" or "horrid." In
Romanian, the "ne-" prefix functions as a negative like "un-" or "in-"
(derived either from the Latin prefix "in-" or the related particle "ne",
under the influence of a similar Slavic construction; see A. de Cihac's
1870 _Dictionnaire_D'Etymologie_Daco-Romane_), while "suferi" is a verb
meaning "to suffer" or "tolerate," from the Latin "sufferre," "to support"
or "endure." "Suferit" is just the past participle of "suferi." Thus the
word is cognate to and closely synonymous with the English "insufferable"
(or more literally "insuffered", that which is not tolerated).
The primary objection to this identification is the sound change between
"nosferatu" and "nesuferit," but this can be partly explained by the
Romanian masculine definite article, "-ul," often pronounced as simply
"u." This suggests that, if this was Gerard's word, she knew only the
spoken and not the written form. "I" to "a" is also easy to explain,
since it is in fact a long "i" and the Romanian long-i seems not to have a
near-equivalent in English. Assuming again that Gerard was trying to
represent a word she knew only from the sound, it's hardly unlikely that
she used 'a' for it, an English vowel with roughly similar articulation.
This leaves only two sound changes, 'e' to 'o' and the elision of 'u'.
These I can't explain very well, but there are many possible explanations
including a variant pronunciation of the local dialect or just Gerard's
inexperience with the language. At any rate, in my opinion "nesuferitul,"
almost literally "the insufferable one," was probably the actual Romanian
word that Gerard rendered as "nosferatu" and thus passed to Stoker, from
whom it entered the domain of popular vampire lore to perplex generations
of commentators on the genre.
Gerard's and thus Stoker's belief that it meant "not dead" at least shows
that the negating sense of the initial prefix was recognized correctly at
first. We can also speculate that Stoker's term "undead" was intended as
a direct translation, a calque, of it. Although "undead" is precedented
in English before Stoker, the last citation of it in the OED before
_Dracula_ was seen just over 300 years earlier and in these earlier
citations is seems to simply mean "not dead" in the sense of "alive"
rather than in the sense of quasi-life after death that we see in Stoker
and the subsequent vampire genre. The Old Norse cognate "udaudhr" had a
sense of "barely alive."
Ben B.
Angela Christine
>Malkavian = the ones who shall survive, the ones who know, the ones who
> understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
Eh? Where's that from? Or is that what the Malks told you? ;)
>
>> Nosferatu=nosferuti(sp?) romanian, ugly one, romanian term for a vampire
>Literally, No-Sferatu = Un-Dead
Hmm, that sounds plausible.
One book I have, "V is for Vampire: the A-Z Guide to Everything Undead,"
(1996) by David J. Skal, has this to say about Nosferatu:
"A meaningless word widely believed to be a Romanian term for
"vampire," but which in fact does not exist in Romanian or any other
language. The first mention of the word came in forklorist Emily de
Laszowska Gerard's 1885 essay "Transylvanian Superstitions," which
novelist Bram Stroker consulted in his research for DRACULA. After
exhastive research, I have come to the conclusion that Gerard must
have recorded a corrupted or misunderstood version of the Romanian
adjective nesuferit, from the Latin "not to suffer." Vampires,
obviously, are "insufferable," "intolerable," or even "plaguesome,"
all of which are given as definitions of nesuferit in various
Romanian dictionaries. The word, however, has no supernatural
conotations of any kind, and it is likely that Gerard simply mistook
its context, or encountered a localized coinage which somehow never
came to the attention of other folklorists or to Romanian
lexicographers."
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Q: What do you get when you cross a 4-leaf clover
with poison ivy?
A: A rash of good luck.
Martin
origin was an
> : official source... I can't remember who, but it was the person who
actually came up
> : with the clan name, I believe. The actual creation of the name was based
on a word
> : meaning "angel," if I recall correctly.
http://thunder.prohosting.com/~malkav/story/clanbook/malkgr01.txt
is where you can find Daniel Greenburg's (author of the Malkavian Clanbook)
answer....
And yes, it /is/ cool...
Martin.
Martin
> understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
Now that one /really/ interests me. Where did it come from?
Martin.
MoonFish
> > understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
>
> Now that one /really/ interests me. Where did it come from?
Are you Brujah?
MoonFish
999
Martin
No. Would it help it I was?
Martin.
MoonFish
Absolutely not. Maybe it would help ME to understand how could you not to
understand that I am Malkavian.
MoonFish
999
Ren Michael Howard
the latin is similar.
Mal: meaning bad, as in malcontent or malevolent.
Kavian: from 'cabe' or 'cave' meaning head. (don't ask me to explain
the accents or pronunciation, I have no idea how to write them, other than
to say it's the same as the clan name.)
So the nutball's name means 'bad head' or maybe 'evil head' Fairly
fitting.
Ren
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: Rumor has it that, "MoonFish" <moon...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
: >Malkavian = the ones who shall survive, the ones who know, the ones who
: > understand, the ones who shall watch the others die.
: Eh? Where's that from? Or is that what the Malks told you? ;)
: >
: >> Nosferatu=nosferuti(sp?) romanian, ugly one, romanian term for a vampire
: >Literally, No-Sferatu = Un-Dead
: Hmm, that sounds plausible.
: One book I have, "V is for Vampire: the A-Z Guide to Everything Undead,"
: (1996) by David J. Skal, has this to say about Nosferatu:
: "A meaningless word widely believed to be a Romanian term for
: "vampire," but which in fact does not exist in Romanian or any other
: language. The first mention of the word came in forklorist Emily de
: Laszowska Gerard's 1885 essay "Transylvanian Superstitions," which
: novelist Bram Stroker consulted in his research for DRACULA. After
: exhastive research, I have come to the conclusion that Gerard must
: have recorded a corrupted or misunderstood version of the Romanian
: adjective nesuferit, from the Latin "not to suffer." Vampires,
: obviously, are "insufferable," "intolerable," or even "plaguesome,"
: all of which are given as definitions of nesuferit in various
: Romanian dictionaries. The word, however, has no supernatural
: conotations of any kind, and it is likely that Gerard simply mistook
: its context, or encountered a localized coinage which somehow never
: came to the attention of other folklorists or to Romanian
: lexicographers."
He dang well better have cited me. Priority, priority!
Ben Buckner
Lexi St. James
affair with the Nosferatu's AD named Nosferat. Tremere's is
well....Tremere.....the other I do not know as of yet.
As far as names of the bloodlines....pick up a Latin dictionary or
something along those lines....they are quite helpful.
Manuel Gonzalez
Ren Michael Howard wrote:
> Kavian: from 'cabe' or 'cave' meaning head. (don't ask me to explain
> the accents or pronunciation, I have no idea how to write them, other than
> to say it's the same as the clan name.)
????
from "kavian" to "caveza" is a big BIG stretch.
"cap" from Catalonian meaning "head" may be more appropriate.
the term "mal del cap" (meaning, to put it in scientific terms, nutzoid) is
still very much in use in Catalonian speaking countries.
let's keep playing with Catalonian, shall we?
how about this one:
Mal: evil, bad, negative.
Ka: phonetic prononciation of "que" (yes, "e" is pronounced as "ah" in proper
catalonian)
Ven: is coming (or comes, depending on the temporal tense)
Put it all together: "the evil that is coming."
a similar formula works in French (Mal Que Vient)
how about Mala Cava (the evil cave).
OK now *I* am stretching a bit.
Jeremy Belton
>Mal: evil, bad, negative.
>Ka: phonetic prononciation of "que" (yes, "e" is pronounced as "ah" in
proper
>catalonian)
>Ven: is coming (or comes, depending on the temporal tense)
>
>Put it all together: "the evil that is coming."
>
>a similar formula works in French (Mal Que Vient)
Woo. Good one.
The problem is that most of the explainations for the name that I've seen so
far are really really good IC, which means that its really doubtful that the
WW staff came up with them. I mean, really, "I have a clan of vampires who
are all deranged, but insightful. I know, I'll go read a lot of Judaic
mythology and language texts, then corrupt whatever name I find, that'll
work."
More than likely it was something like "What sounds good? Malkavian...that
sounds suitably vampiry and weird. I'll use that."
But if they actually went to any real effort to find a name that actually
had some kind of meaning, the above works really well, and I can see the
writers coming up with it. The whole angel-king thing, while interesting, is
really unlikely to be what the developers were thinking of, even if it was
put forth by the guy who wrote the clanbook. To my understanding, when
Vampire first came out, it was no where near that level of development. I
refuse wholeheartedly to believe that a clan name could be that involved
when one of the other clans is called the "nosferatu" in a fairly blatant
rip off of the old silent movie.
IC, though, all of the etymologies given so far are good, and all of them
are correct, according to any Malkavian you ask. They will also tell you
that their clan name is an ancient swedish word meaning "has exceptionally
large genitalia."
--
Jeremy Belton
INCONNU: (n)
A French word meaning "unknown". The masculine form.
In English, it also refers to several species of
"large oily freshwater fish."
DireMask
thought that i'd just express some random rage. there's this guy i game with
who can't quite read or something. he insists on pronouncing MALKAVIAN as
MAKIAVELLIAN. and even came up to me one day in school, and talked to me about
how he figured out how they fit in with THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. i just
thought it was damned funny.
David Talböy
Male: (mall-a, not like man...) bad, evil
Caput: Head (Spanish could've taken a cue from this..except)
Cave: (ka-way) Beware
Four years of Latin comes in handy sometimes...
-Dav!
Ren Michael Howard wrote in message <7vsq1l$853$1...@pith.uoregon.edu>...
>Just a quick bit on the origin of Malkavian, from spanish, and I believe
>the latin is similar.
>Mal: meaning bad, as in malcontent or malevolent.
>the accents or pronunciation, I have no idea how to write them, other than
>to say it's the same as the clan name.)
>
David Talböy
tar...@imap2.asu.edu wrote in message <7vq981$3id$1...@news.asu.edu>...
Nos: Latin (from nox, noxis: Night)
<snip>
-Dav!
AndroidCat
news:19991104235310...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Yeah, so?
Nicolai Malkiavelli
Fangorn
> are correct, according to any Malkavian you ask. They will also tell you
> that their clan name is an ancient swedish word meaning "has exceptionally
> large genitalia."
>
How the hell do you know that?????
That's classified clan information!!!!!
true though ;)
-Fangorn
AKA Reginald the Inflatable Fish
talm...@mind-warp.com
some Latin or Hebrew meaning... I will explain the truth to you.
'Malkavian' is in fact a bastardized form of 'Malkovich'... yes, that's right,
Malkovich. John Malkovich. The actor. Otherwise known as Malkav.
You doubt me? Have you ever seen his films? The man is insane... he's insane in
so many different ways (and in so many different films) it's galling. Rounders,
Dangerous Liasons, Of Mice and Men, Con Air... I could go on all day. He's
Malkav, I tell you! Don't be fooled! This is the true origin of the clan name!
Simon Kiasyd (who has ingested too much fae vitae)
CharlesDWard
>affair with the Nosferatu's AD named Nosferat.
As sire of the 4th Gen Baba Yaga, I figured Absimiliard for Nosferat's name.
Kish
CharlesDWard wrote in message
<19991105123905...@ng-bk1.aol.com>...
The truth is that nobody really knows the names of any of the Antediluvians.
Troile? The (current) Brujah Antediluvian is sometimes called that,
yes...but is that what s/he calls himself/herself? Nobody knows.
Absimiliard is the name Baba Yaga, who may have been Embraced 15th
Generation and gotten to her current status through diablerie, has for her
sire. What does that mean? Practically nothing. Personally, I use the
name given in the appropriate Clanbook (if one is given) for an
Antediluvian, and ignore other sources. So: Haqim, Arikel, Ennoia, Troile,
but not Veddartha or Absimmywhoever.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
Manuel Gonzalez
CharlesDWard wrote:
> >she had an
> >affair with the Nosferatu's AD named Nosferat.
>
> As sire of the 4th Gen Baba Yaga, I figured Absimiliard for Nosferat's name.
here's my question:
what happened to the Shadow Curtain and baba Yaga?
I mean story wise, not "Justin hated her".
Kish
Manuel Gonzalez wrote in message <38232925...@swbell.net>...
>here's my question:
>what happened to the Shadow Curtain and baba Yaga?
>I mean story wise, not "Justin hated her".
>
Oh, you wanted more detail? It's supposed to be in a supplement during the
year of the Aaarrrggghhh! (2000).
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: tar...@imap2.asu.edu wrote in message <7vq981$3id$1...@news.asu.edu>...
: Nos: Latin (from nox, noxis: Night)
Erat "nox, noctis" ubi Latinam discebam. But at any rate, the point is
that those are obviously bogus derivations. "Nox" doesn't work as a root
because no Romance langauge (let alone Romanian) has a "nox" reflex of that
form. In Rom., it's actually "noapte."
Ben B.
We Are The No-Brand Heroes!
Malk: Gamese. Short for 'Malkavian'
Avian: Bird.
Malkavian= The Flying Malkavians.
The mystery is solved.
Brandon W. Easley
No-Brand Hero
On Fri, 5 Nov 1999 01:51:44 -0500, "David Talböy" <sunj...@ufl.edu>
wrote:
Tim Gray
>>NOSFERATU
>>
nos = our
fer = iron
atu = from Atum, primeval Egyptian god
So = "our iron god"
A Demon of Contrariness
Phillip Ames
wrote:
>"David Talböy" <sunj...@ufl.edu> wrote:
>
>>>NOSFERATU
>>>
>
>nos = our
>fer = iron
>atu = from Atum, primeval Egyptian god
>
>
>So = "our iron god"
>
Actually, it's a corruption of an ancient title for a toady position.
Nose-ferret, a now extinct species of symbiotic animal. Much like
dickey birds and rhinos, Nose ferrets live with their hoast and clean
him, taking shelter inside the nostrils. Later, the term was applied
to a class of servant that were forbidden entrance into the streets
during the day.
Phil
Bastien Evain
Phillip Ames wrote in message <382a50f5...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:16:57 GMT, her...@change-works.com (Tim Gray)
>wrote:
>
>>"David Talböy" <sunj...@ufl.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>>NOSFERATU
>>>>
>>
>>nos = our
>>fer = iron
>>atu = from Atum, primeval Egyptian god
>>
>>
>>So = "our iron god"
Nice attempt, but it sounds strange to me to mix french with egyptian. :)