Clans Joining the Camarilla
Kish
Sean Riley wrote in message <3845CFAB...@iname.com-remove->...
>The evidence is now too great to ignore - A clan will be joining the
>Camarilla... probably in 2000. For those who missed the two big clues
>(Maybe there were more, I might have missed a few), on a www.White-Wolf.com
>hosted chat, Justin Achilli declared to a question asking if anyone
>would join the Camarilla to be an "excellent question." Similarly, in Ex
>Libris Nocturnis this issue, he's told us we have less to worry about
>another clan leaving the Camarilla then we do with one joining.
>
>Now then - Whom may it be?
>
If any, I would say Giovanni or Setites are most likely.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
Stunt Borg
> That leaves us, finally, with the independants - Assamite,
> Gangrel, Giovanni, Setites.
Assamites as individuals not in thrall to the nebulous concept of
clan... certainly a few here and there. Contracts would be more to
aid in defense against Sabbat, looking to kill the competent, aged
bishop and archbishop coordinators of Seiges instead of taking the
full brunt of all the War Packs. High-power blood from old, old
Sabbat, support from the Prince's network in doing so ... all good
things. And the Cam gets to watch seiges disintegrate into
uncoordinated unruliness that the ghoul patrols can deal with more
effectively.
Assamites as a whole Clan? Not likely. Tons of negatives hard to
overlook. Total fear and the issue of how the heck you'd work an
Assamite Justicar being among the most obvious.
-----------------
Gangrel ... riiiight. That'd make that whole leaving thing awfully
fulfilling and purposeful, wouldn't it? We've *got* Gangrel in the
Cam already. That's plenty.
-----------------
Giovanni have the power and the unity and the wherewithall to do
it. They could offer astounding resources to rout the Sabbat, and
tip the magical balance to the Cam permanently. The only problem
is theme: they are Ventrue-meet-Tremere. Corporate and rarified,
yet insular and occult. That adds precious little to the Cammie
character mix. Moreover, it gives *4* Clans primarily obsessed
about seizing power and control over the whole apparatus rather
than seeing to its defense, which has suffered for the Gangrel's
departure.
It could happen. I'd rather it not.
--------------------
Setites would rock, so much so that I've always upped their
connections to the Cam, and have done so even more since V3. They
are bitterly antagonistic to the Serpents of Light, they dabble
with mortals and the Masquerade as well as any Toreador, and they
offer a 'revelling in it yet Humanity is viable as a Path'
viewpoint *different* from both the Giovanni and the general Cam.
Thematically, they are also *new* to the Cam mix and especially to
the Cam geography. They play the manipulation and prestation game
well, and offer a wide variety of concepts that the Giovanni do
not, given Gio's pathological inbreeding and internal structure.
The Setites have *warriors* to contribute to the Cam cause,
detached *ecstatics* to stir into the Elysia, and a whole suite of
geographic range and ethnic mix to liven up the Cammie pot.
Established, ancient powerbases of other cultures can be added,
from India to the Middle East to Africa to the Caribbean. The
Camarilla can expand outward to the edges of Cathay, internally
reinforce its hold on America, and arm itself to pry back at the
Sabbat's recent gains.
And, yes, this surge of support and victory will likely come at a
hidden price, and no end of vampires would be uncertain and uneasy
about their new allies ... but Setites truck with the Cam already,
far more openly than the Giovanni, and the Setites are *all about*
winning people over to see their side of things and making that a
desirable thing. The Setites can *SELL* themselves to the Cam, and
I, for one, think it would be a lot more fun to watch them try than
for the Giovanni to coldly and easily slide into position.
If I can ever get my Vampire game going more than once a month ...
they *will* join, silly canon or no. And won't that be fun? :)
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
sees the Giovanni making the Cam less interesting, not
moreso ... we already know everything that's going on,
there. Exactly the opposite with the Setites.
Sean Riley
Camarilla... probably in 2000. For those who missed the two big clues
hosted chat, Justin Achilli declared to a question asking if anyone
would join the Camarilla to be an "excellent question." Similarly, in Ex
Libris Nocturnis this issue, he's told us we have less to worry about
another clan leaving the Camarilla then we do with one joining.
Now then - Whom may it be?
We can rule out 6 clans instantly - They're already there. Ravnos don't
count anymore, so they're also out. That leaves us with the Lasombra,
Tzimisce, Assamites, Gangrel, Giovanni and Setites. Of those, I think
it's a safe bet not to be the Lasombra or Tzimisce, because without
either the Sabbat would come crashing down.
That leaves us, finally, with the independants - Assamite, Gangrel,
Giovanni, Setites.
Now.. my analysis.
Case for the Assamites: The Camarilla situation in regard to the thin
blooded is critical, Scourges aren't doing the job and the Justicars
aren't particuarly keen on the idea of having their Archons waste time
tracking down thin blooded caitiff. Enter the Assamites, experienced
trackers and killers. There's a ready made niche, right there. There's
... friction between the Tremere and Assamites, which could be very fun.
I also seem to remember a vague hint that a portion of the Assamites
might join the Camarilla, but not all.
Case against the Assamites: What Assamite on earth wants 15th genner
blood? Friction is an ironic understatement, the Tremere hate their
guts, and are arguably the most powerful clan in the Camarilla
structure. If any get in, it's gonna be a long stretch of the
imagination to see how those two clans will go. Equally, the Assamites
have just gotten out of a blood curse put on them by the Camarilla.
Yeeeah. I see 'em running back right now. In addition, having 'part of'
a clan is considerably less dramatic than an entire clan moving. Part of
is, if not routine, seemingly half hearted. Entire clans moving is
gutsy. And in case you didn't notice, Justin don't care too much if he
don't make friends.
Case for the Gangrel: It's been a year. Gehenna ain't here yet. Sooner
or later, the Gangrel who left on Xaviers warnings are gonna look at
their calenders and start deciding he was smoking crack, heading back
in. They too are experienced trackers and killers, so they might be able
to help out the thin blooded problems.
Case against the Gangrel: They just left. It's too soon to put em back
in the can. Uhhh.. Cam.
Case for the Giovanni: Sleek, stylish Vampires with resources to play
around with, a mindset that allows them to deal with the Masquerade
(Damned essential characteristic), good prestation skills, and mortal
ties. All are assets in the Camarilla. In addition, having both the
Giovanni and Tremere onside would give the Camarilla unquestioned
mystical supremacy over the Sabbat. This would also facilitate Justin
Achilli's love/hate relationship with the Giovanni clan, he dismisses
them as 'one trick ponies', but can't help leaping in to do any of the
books concerning them. (My personal theory: Whilst the Giovanni have one
trick, that one trick lends itself to exactly what Justin sees as
defining Vampire - Ghosts are a wonderful plot device to force Vampires
to consider their own actions and that makes for great personal horror,
and the Mafia ties lend into the 'New Geek' genre that Justin so
frequently draws upon.)
Case against the Giovanni: The clan has stated time and time again that
Neutrality is too valuable to lose. They have a powerful in family
relationship and aren't disposed to sharing that power. Neither are the
Tremere, granted, but the Giovanni also don't have a desperate need of
allies in a hurry. Boston may be in danger, but their true power base is
in Italy, and despite a Sabbat presence, they're not worried. The
Giovanni are also distinctly inhumane in the way they operate, perhaps
even moreso than the Assamites or Setites, and that makes them a poor
choice in the Camarilla. Finally, there's too much overlap between the
Giovanni and the Ventrue - Both are power players with good prestation
skills and a lot of dosh. And the Ventrue are cooler. (And all of the
above is stereotyping, but eh. You know what I mean.) In an ironic way,
the Giovanni almost fit in too well - the kind of tension that the
Assamites or Setites could lend to such a plot development is somewhat
absent from the Giovanni.
Case for the Setites: Money, check. Resources, check. Sophistication,
check. Experts at prestation beyond peer, oh hell yeah check. Willing
and able to work within a rigid masquerade, check. The Setites have
EVERYTHING the Camarilla wants in a clan. They also have a lot of
baggage they ain't thrilled about, sure, but the Setites are probably no
worse than the Giovanni or Assamites in that regard. Plus, the Setites
have a distinct advantage - A notable number of their clan already
within the Camarilla, giving them a support structure. Furthermore, the
Camarilla already makes up 95% of the Setites buisness, as observed by
Clayton A. Olliver, the Camarilla is all about repressed desires and
self-delusion, as opposed to the Sabbat, who are too self-fufilling to
really be of much use. The Setites are also hated more then any other
clan... but often for somewhat dodgy reasons. Claims of being
eeeeeeeeeevil fall flat when you compare their methods to the Giovanni
or even the Tremere, both of whom are equally nasty if not worse. This
means that you get wonderful tension, everyone (save those who think
like me) are blindsided by the decision, but it actually makes some kind
of twisted sense.
Case against the Setites: It'd be a major turn around in the use of this
clan, traditionally they're the 'deal with the devil', and having them
as an outsider lends to that imagery. Ultimately, the internal logic
often isn't as important as fan reaction, and from what I've seen, the
fans are more willing to accept the Giovanni in the Camarilla than the
Setites. Cynthia, Jess and any other LARP'ers might stage a
mini-rebellion, complete with torched arrows, for opening the floodgates
to a series of drug-dealing, overwroughtly egyptian twits into the
traditionally Camarilla based Live-Action game, although it must be
stated that opening the floodgates to the Setites is better than opening
the floodgates to the Assamites.
My prediction: Assamites. Too many hints from various sources outweigh
all other evidence. A portion of the Assamites will break off and join
the Camarilla to act as intercity scourges involved in killing the
thin-blooded.
My Preference: The Setites. Too unexpected, sneaky, twistedly logical
and fun to ignore. Also would work toward creating more Hesha-esque
Setites in Elysiums than drug-dealin' Setites on streets. There's been a
bet on Vampire-L between myself and another person (Of whom I forget,
sadly, my mail program went beserk and deleted a ton of saved mails)
surrounding who this clan will be. If it's Giovanni, I have to eat a
frog. If it's Setites, he has to. And if it was the Assamites, we'd both
shove frogs down Justin's throat. (Only kidding.)
The final theory is, of course, that it's Clan Elfpants, but they're far
too cool as they are to join the Camarilla.
Anyway, point of this long e-mail is: Any hints, Justin? Any comments,
from either Justin or anyone? Hairbrained theories? Ranting as to why it
cannot, absolutely in no way, be the Setites?
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"Tuesday, 9:14pm. I abducted an alien." - Flacco
Sean Riley
sean...@iname.com
Slave to my Players
Greg Deych
Setites, they have no bagage to weight against them, and potential
benefits of influencing Camarilla policy are many. Considering that
Harbingers of Skulls have joined the Sabbat, it's likely their
neutrality will be stretched quite thin anyway.
Sean Riley
> I think that Giovanni will be the ones to join the Camarilla. Unlike
> Setites, they have no bagage to weight against them, and potential
> benefits of influencing Camarilla policy are many. Considering that
> Harbingers of Skulls have joined the Sabbat, it's likely their
> neutrality will be stretched quite thin anyway.
Other than being born of a conspiracy opposed by the very founders of the
Camarilla themselves, and being inbred necrophiliac corpse defilers? ;-)
I think people let the Giovanni off far too lightly.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"Sensing my immediate need to attempt not to die, he graciously postponed all
discussion about Lemurs until I had a chance to rest." - John Cleese
Webwalker
> I think that Giovanni will be the ones to join the Camarilla. Unlike
> Setites, they have no bagage to weight against them, and potential
> benefits of influencing Camarilla policy are many. Considering that
> Harbingers of Skulls have joined the Sabbat, it's likely their
> neutrality will be stretched quite thin anyway.
Exactly. In the past, the Sabbat has been somewhat uncaring towards the
Giovanni. A kind of "You're too small to bother with, unless you actually
do something to us that pisses us off." attitude is changing to a "Kill
the Giovanni." due tot he presence of the Harbingers of Skulls. And much
as the Sabbat doesn't like to really admit it, they are based on power,
first and foremost... and the Harbingers of Skulls have a rather large
amount of power. (ie: one HoS may have more diciplines that most starting
_packs_, as the quote goes.) How many Sabbat are _really_ going to refuse
to attack the Giovanni if a millenia old Harbinger says "Kill The
Giovanni."?
So they're going to join the Camarilla. If any of the Independant
clans joins, that is.
Reasons why NO the Assamites and the Settites:
Assamites: The Camarilla won't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. Not
suprising, since the Assamites don't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. He's
the most powerful Vampiric Mage on the planet. He woke up, yawned, broke
the Tremere Curse, then rubbed the sleep from his eyes. If the Assamites
were to join... well, the Tremre would be dead.
Also, why the hell would the Assamites take contracts for 14th
and 15th gen kindred? They would rather take one 8th than 100 15th, and I
don't see the Camarilla saying to them; "Okay, for every 100 Thin Blooded
you kill, we'll sacrafise an 8th gen or two. Deal?"
Had the curse not been broken... I might see this. The Camarilla
would feel much safer knowingthat Assamites could only chow down on each
other, and not on them. But now, with more and more returning to their
old "bloodthirsty" ways, I don't see too many Princes wanting to take a
chance with them, even for "normal" contracts.
Settites: I'm not sure we've gotten the whole story on the
Settites. They seem to be rather one-dimensional... then in VRev, they
became really cool (hidden loremasters... excellent) but not much is said
about them, that I've read so far. I'd like to think that there is
something in the works for them, something as big as it was for the Ravnos
(though not quite as genocidal), but I don't think that joining the
Camarilla is it. Might be... but I think the Giovanni will join first.
> On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:47:24 +1100, Sean Riley
> <sean...@iname.com-remove-> wrote:
>>
>>Anyway, point of this long e-mail is: Any hints, Justin? Any comments,
>>from either Justin or anyone? Hairbrained theories? Ranting as to why it
>>cannot, absolutely in no way, be the Setites?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Sean.
--
"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
-- Thomas A. Edison
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
Greg Deych
beloved (whatever that means) as Salubri, and they were accepted after
few hundred years. It's been over 500 since Giovanni did their deed,
and they are pretty well respected. As for necromancy...really, I
don't think it's a big deal. For most Kindred, it's far less of a
threat then blood magic of the Tremere or whatever an average Assamite
can do to them. Setites are the only other viable candidate, but I'd
say that prejudicies against Setites are far higher then against
Giovanni.
Sean Riley
> Exactly. In the past, the Sabbat has been somewhat uncaring towards the
> Giovanni. A kind of "You're too small to bother with, unless you actually
> do something to us that pisses us off." attitude is changing to a "Kill
> the Giovanni." due tot he presence of the Harbingers of Skulls. And much
> as the Sabbat doesn't like to really admit it, they are based on power,
> first and foremost... and the Harbingers of Skulls have a rather large
> amount of power.
Individually, yes. Collectively, the HoS remain too small to overly influence
policy. They might promote a more agressive approach to the Giovanni, and
that, in turn, might determine which cities start getting attacked. But the
HoS are still playing third fiddle to the Lasombra/Tzimisce and the Antitribu
in the power scale - And they are still both saying: "Full steam ahead, Die
Camarilla, Die!" Wouldn't jumping to the Camarilla to escape the Sabbat kinda
be like leaping from the proverbial frying pan?
Besides!! The Giovanni in the Camarilla is boring! Boring!! They fit too damn
well! *flails uselessly against the tide of Giovanni supporters* ;-)
> Reasons why NO the Assamites and the Settites:
>
> Assamites: The Camarilla won't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. Not
> suprising, since the Assamites don't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. He's
> the most powerful Vampiric Mage on the planet. He woke up, yawned, broke
> the Tremere Curse, then rubbed the sleep from his eyes. If the Assamites
> were to join... well, the Tremre would be dead.
Hehe. I just got an image... "sunday, Sunday SUNDAY!! Goatrix vs. Ur-Shulgi in
a no-holds barred, barbed wire steel cage match! Only on Pay Per View!"
Ahem! Sorry. Out of my system.
That said, I think the Assamites, whilst impressively powerful, wouldn't beat
the Tremere. One powerhouse does not an offensive make, and in collective
ass-whupping capability, I'd put my money on the versatile and downright nasty
Tremere.
> Also, why the hell would the Assamites take contracts for 14th
> and 15th gen kindred? They would rather take one 8th than 100 15th, and I
> don't see the Camarilla saying to them; "Okay, for every 100 Thin Blooded
> you kill, we'll sacrafise an 8th gen or two. Deal?"
I know. Puzzles the hell out of me, too.
> Settites: I'm not sure we've gotten the whole story on the
> Settites. They seem to be rather one-dimensional... then in VRev, they
> became really cool (hidden loremasters... excellent) but not much is said
> about them, that I've read so far. I'd like to think that there is
> something in the works for them, something as big as it was for the Ravnos
> (though not quite as genocidal), but I don't think that joining the
> Camarilla is it. Might be... but I think the Giovanni will join first.
My main point is still plot interest. The Giovanni are, IMO, far too similar
to the Ventrue if you whack them in the Camarilla. Both are noted for a mix of
organised crime and legitimate powerbroking involving extensive manipulation
of mortal society. The necromancy thing is a point, but one discipline isn't a
differentiation, IMO.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and caring, let's get
back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
Sean Riley
> Well, but Tremere got away with worse...Cappadocians were hardly as
> beloved (whatever that means) as Salubri, and they were accepted after
> few hundred years. It's been over 500 since Giovanni did their deed,
> and they are pretty well respected.
It's been close to a millenium, if I remember correctly, since Tremere did the
deed, and they're still not well respected. Well, not trusted, anyway. The
Giovanni have half the time.. it's still well and truly remembered. After all,
the vampires who run the Camarilla were around when it happened.
<snips, agrees that Setites are more detested than Giovanni.. but..>
> Setites are the only other viable candidate, but I'd
> say that prejudicies against Setites are far higher then against
> Giovanni.
And again, I agree with you. The predjudices are higher against the Setites.
This is a reason WHY the Setites should be joining. It's an out of character
reason, maybe, but it's still worth it. The Giovanni, if they entered the
Camarilla, would be big, but it could still kinda just happen.
There is no chance of that with the Setites. All sorts of angry stuff would
start. It would be ugly. It would also be lots of fun for us.
The Setites would survive it. There are some already there to look out for
them. (Something the Giovanni don't have.) And they'd prove very helpful to
the Camarilla. After all, 'helping' others is what they do best. *eg*
Less flippantly, most of the predjudice has fairly weak footing, really. You
can argue that they worship a god of Darkness, but in terms of what they've
done, we have no diablerie associated with clan (Giovanni and Assamites do)
and former trading on peaceable grounds (Giovanni don't, Assamites kinda did,
but those nights are long gone).
I dunno. One thing I think which appeals to me behind the notion is that it's
unexpected, but it works logically when you start thinking about it. They've
always been my fav characters, plotlines, so on. The Brujah economist who used
stock market analogies to show a Masquerade 'crash' in the foreseeable future
that my player came up with, for example, is stuff that gets my head spinning
and makes me think, "Damn, but that's seriously cool." And I think the
Setites joining would be a bit like that, whereas the Giovanni joining is
somewhat 'going by the play book'.
But it will be the Assamites, anyway. I'm very confident that will be the
case.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and caring, let's get
back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
Sean Riley
Greg Deych
<sean...@iname.com-remove-> wrote:
>Greg Deych wrote:
>
>> Well, but Tremere got away with worse...Cappadocians were hardly as
>> beloved (whatever that means) as Salubri, and they were accepted after
>> few hundred years. It's been over 500 since Giovanni did their deed,
>> and they are pretty well respected.
>
>It's been close to a millenium, if I remember correctly, since Tremere did the
>deed, and they're still not well respected. Well, not trusted, anyway. The
>Giovanni have half the time.. it's still well and truly remembered. After all,
>the vampires who run the Camarilla were around when it happened.
>
Right, I meant that Tremere were accepted enough to be a part of the
Camarilla. That was from about 1100 (clan created) to 1500, when
Camarilla was founded, wasn't it?
Sean Riley
> Right, I meant that Tremere were accepted enough to be a part of the
> Camarilla. That was from about 1100 (clan created) to 1500, when
> Camarilla was founded, wasn't it?
That's true. They were founded even earlier then that, if I recall. But I will
point out that the Camarilla, at that point, needed the Tremere as much as the
Tremere needed it. Right now, even with the losses it's taking, the Camarilla can
afford to pick and choose somewhat. (Which admittedly would lend towards neither
the Giovanni or the Setites joining. But what can you do? ;-)
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"Normally we only give three points for that event, but because his performance was
so outstanding ... FOUR POINTS!" - Paul McDermott
Bruce Baugh
freelancers don't get the whole story in advance, I couldn't say whether
you're right, but I really like your careful weighing of the
considerations. If you're wrong, you'll at least be wrong for good
reasons. :)
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with guns, that
I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
A Non-Action Hero
have to understand what role was lost when the Gangrel left. The Structure of
the Camarilla is such that The Ventrue are the leaders with their money and
connections, Malkavians are the insight and the seers, the Toreador are the
aesthetics and the humanities (arguably the most adept at the Masquerade), The
Nosferatu are the information, the Brujah are the muscle and the bringer of
change; so what did the Gangrel take with them in terms of skills?
The Gangrel took with them knowledge of the open country (which is an important
thing when there are Lupines, Sabbat, Fae, and hunters running around). They
also took scounting and some fighting knowledge.
The next clan would have to bring similar qualities to the Camarilla ... so
which of the other clans could fit that role? Certainly not the Lasombra
because they lead their own sect. The Tzimisce would not because not only are
they the soul of the Sabbat, but we all know that the Sabbat/Camarilla are just
cover-ups for
the Tzimisce-Tremere war!
The Assamites seem to be a good choice to fit the slot, but let's face it; the
Assamites have some internal problems of their own, so they won't be joining
anytime soon. The Setites and the Giovanni are both independant clans that seem
to prefer to keep to themselves. Which leaves us with...
The Ravnos.
Sure, they may not have an Antediluvian (which technically denounces their
clanship), but what should that matter to a sect that doesn't even believe in
the Antediluvians? By it's very nature, the Camarilla extends it's clawed
fingers to ALL
vampires. (conversely, if you believe the rumours, the Ravnos still have their
Antediluvian, just not their founder.) They have the same ruggedness and
knowledge of the wild that the Gangrel have ( They are vagabonda and wanderers
-- they are going to know where things are; Fortitude and Animalism) plus their
own little trick (Chimerstry is an excellent way to maintain the Masquerade).
Besides, where else would the few remaining Ravnos turn to? Certainly not the
Sabbat. Another thing: if you are the Camarilla, wouldn't you want more
vampires in your sect anyway?
The Ravnos are coming. Hide your wallets.
C. Robin, Esq.
eMail: Saint...@aol.com
A Member of "The Non Action Heroes!"
"I've got to have a memory ... or, I have never been there."
"Memorabilia" -Soft Cell
Clayton A. Oliver
<major snippage>
>The final theory is, of course, that it's Clan Elfpants, but they're far
>too cool as they are to join the Camarilla.
The Camarilla has a dress code, too.
>Anyway, point of this long e-mail is: Any hints, Justin? Any comments,
>from either Justin or anyone? Hairbrained theories? Ranting as to why it
>cannot, absolutely in no way, be the Setites?
Hm. I actually see the Setites as the most likely. Remember, they
were the ones who were actually given a formal invitation when the Cam
was founded, way back when -- and their not showing up for the big
dance brought on a lot of mixed emotions for all involved.
Also remember that vampires are immortal. While this may qualify as
re-stating the blindingly obvious, it's necessary from time to time
just to get us thinking outside the limits of mortal lifespans and
mortal institutions. That immortality means that many of the
Camarilla's most influential elders were alive for the Anarch Revolt,
and they remember its events. They remember the clan who was willing
to extend sanctuary to anyone for the right price (the Followers of
Set). They also remember the screaming hordes from the east who came
after their blood (the Assamites). Immortal grudge die hard. The
Setites may be barely palatable to a lot of those elders (if only
because institutionalizing them risks the revelation of just how many
of those elders owe Setites favors), but the Assamites are like rabid
dogs.
Additionally, consider that all of the Camarilla clans are somewhat
multi-role (though they're not always depicted as such). The Gangrel
may have been the clan's combat monsters, but they weren't always
available to fill that role, which means that the Camarilla is not
lacking for other combat power. The Assamites are just too, well,
one-dimensional to really fit into the Camarilla well, and I agree
with the point that their presence in a Cam-based LARP would be
uncomfortable, as any Assamite PCs would spend their time propped up
in a corner waiting for the fight scenes.
Plus, I just flashed on the idea of a Setite prince kicking the Sabbat
out of Miami and assuming the throne. I think that may be my next
game...
- C.
Greg Deych
have a hard time imagining any impact from Ravnos joining Camarilla
now. Not only are they one clan which is more individualistic then
Gangrel, but there is only 100 of them left! Like somebody
paraphrased "A difference which makes no difference is no difference
at all".
On 02 Dec 1999 04:02:02 GMT, saint...@aol.com.shh.org (A Non-Action
Greg Deych
the other hand, I must point out that it's not Camarilla policy to go
mano-a-mano against the Sabbat. So far, Cammarilla has been playing
the influence-and-flunky game against Sabbat, and Giovanni do bring
more of that to the play. It's an open question wether Camarilla
policy is viable, of course.
On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:12:34 -0700, Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU>
wrote:
Sean Riley
> Sean, that was a _very_ impressive bit of reasoning. Since we lowly
> freelancers don't get the whole story in advance, I couldn't say whether
> you're right, but I really like your careful weighing of the
> considerations. If you're wrong, you'll at least be wrong for good
> reasons. :)
Well shucks. Thank you. :-)
Sean Riley
> >The final theory is, of course, that it's Clan Elfpants, but they're far
> >too cool as they are to join the Camarilla.
>
> The Camarilla has a dress code, too.
Not at LARPs they don't. ;-)
(BTW: Just storytold his first LARP ever last night, and laughed at the
diversity of costuming, a mix between stylish evening wear, historical garb,
and plain clothes. [Which in one case couldn't have been a better choice] And
I had a ball, too.)
> <snips>
> Plus, I just flashed on the idea of a Setite prince kicking the Sabbat
> out of Miami and assuming the throne. I think that may be my next
> game...
Now THAT would be neat.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and caring, let's get
back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
Sean Riley
Sean Riley
> <snips down to the Setite bit, acknowledging all of it as smart,
> clever and perceptive>
> Thematically, they are also *new* to the Cam mix and especially to
> the Cam geography. They play the manipulation and prestation game
> well, and offer a wide variety of concepts that the Giovanni do
> not, given Gio's pathological inbreeding and internal structure.
> The Setites have *warriors* to contribute to the Cam cause,
> detached *ecstatics* to stir into the Elysia, and a whole suite of
> geographic range and ethnic mix to liven up the Cammie pot.
> Established, ancient powerbases of other cultures can be added,
> from India to the Middle East to Africa to the Caribbean. The
> Camarilla can expand outward to the edges of Cathay, internally
> reinforce its hold on America, and arm itself to pry back at the
> Sabbat's recent gains.
Damn! I didn't even think of that! How utterly perfect would the
Ecstatics be in Elysium? The warriors.. and... wow.
*blinks* That's nicely thought out, man.
> And, yes, this surge of support and victory will likely come at a
> hidden price, and no end of vampires would be uncertain and uneasy
> about their new allies ... but Setites truck with the Cam already,
> far more openly than the Giovanni, and the Setites are *all about*
> winning people over to see their side of things and making that a
> desirable thing. The Setites can *SELL* themselves to the Cam, and
> I, for one, think it would be a lot more fun to watch them try than
> for the Giovanni to coldly and easily slide into position.
Very true. *G*
> If I can ever get my Vampire game going more than once a month ...
> they *will* join, silly canon or no. And won't that be fun? :)
If you ever do, please tell us how it goes. I'm curious.
Thomas Weinbrenner
>Now then - Whom may it be?
>We can rule out 6 clans instantly - They're already there.
Perhaps the Malkavians defect to the Sabbat and their antitribu joins
the Camarilla ;-)
>Ravnos don't count anymore, so they're also out. That leaves us with
>the Lasombra, Tzimisce, Assamites, Gangrel, Giovanni and Setites. Of
>those, I think it's a safe bet not to be the Lasombra or Tzimisce,
>because without either the Sabbat would come crashing down.
The Sabbat is more than just those two Clans. And they have become more
powerful this year. It's possible that they want to weaken the Sabbat.
>That leaves us, finally, with the independants - Assamite, Gangrel,
>Giovanni, Setites.
[Assamites]
Why should the Assamites join the Camarilla? They have some internal
Problems with Ur-Shulgi, who is acting in the name of Haquim.
I can't see Ur-Shulgi join the Camarilla. And those who are against him
are mostly dead and would probably join the Sabbat (already an antitribu
there, and they want to fight their Antediluvians 'Herald')
[Gangrel]
It sounds a bit silly, but it's possible
[Giovanni]
The Giovanni have already enough to do. There is enough trouble in the
underworld to keep them busy. And they are behind the Kuei-jin
invasion...
[Setites]
I would be stupid to trust the Setites, but that was also true for the
Tremere. It's probably the Setites.
BA
>The Assamites are just too, well,
>one-dimensional to really fit into the Camarilla well, and I agree
>with the point that their presence in a Cam-based LARP would be
>uncomfortable, as any Assamite PCs would spend their time propped up
>in a corner waiting for the fight scenes.
<Spidey Voice>
"My Sarcasm Sense is tingling!"
</Spidey Voice>
"...there are evil men in the world, truly evil men. Sometimes we hear of them,
but more often they work in absolute darkness."
Stephen King, _'Salem's Lot_
acea...@my-deja.com
But I think there might be a bigger twist.
Two Clans
Losombra Antitribu and the Giovanni
Why? The antitribu will really smack the Sabbat in the nose by
extending the protection around their lost brothers. Plus the make the
best spies into the Losombra ranks.
As for the Giovanni. Because the Giovanni are going to paning now that
the Lands of the dead are in chaos and the Harbingers of Skulls, (And
quite posibly the Semedi) are looking to cause them some problems.
Remember, the only do one trick well, when someone does your trick as
good as you do, you go to the other side and make friends quick. you
can be sure that the Harbinger of Skulls will provoke the Sabbat into
action.
Assamites. I doubt there will be enough of them to make a call soon.
For all we know UR-sugli (sp) could be a Tremere plot to kill as many
Assimites before Tremere wakes up just ot hedge his bets
Ravnos. Ha, yea right.
Children of Set. No one trusts snakes. I doubt that. A very powerful
child of set killed a Ventrue Justicar and posed as them for sometime.
I doubt they will forget that. Plus they don't bring enough to the
table.
Personally, i don't see what keeps the Brujah from mass migrating to
California and going Anarch. They could fight the Kindredof the East
and make an new government again. What could make them happier.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Aiaquel
It would be the Giovanni. Look at the comment made in the guide to the
sabbat under the Harbingers of Skulls. If this line is, as most believe, the
remnants of the Cappadocians, then they are shure as shit out to use the
sabbat to wipe out the usurping Giovanni. The Giovanni aren't stupid, they
know that with the full weight of the sabbat against them they are fucked,
so easiest way to stay alive, use the camarilla... they already hate the
sabbat anyway. So i think for survival sake, the Giovanni will join the
camarilla if anyone does. The Gangrel just left, the Setites are too busy
preparing for Set's awakening, and the Assamites despise the camarilla
something fierce, no way they would join them. Sure they are good source of
work, but why would they wish to join the infidels??
That is my opinion
Aiaquel
vampires are members. so we really have to look at it from a clan aspect not
a Camarilla aspect. Who has the most to gain by joining the Camarilla? again
i would say the Giovanni.
Robin Lim
joining the Camarilla. I'm edging towards the Settites myself, since many
of the arguments have impressed me. Unfortunately, in my campaign, we, err,
kinda destroyed Set and the vast majority of the Elder Settites.
Oh, which reminds me of the #1 reason WHY the Settites aren't likely to join
the Camarilla:
Khementiri.
Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean, masquerading as
Ventrue Justicar is not something that you get off lightly.
rob
Jason Corley
version of the Giovanni looks nothing like the Clanbook and my version of
the Ravnos looked nothing like what people imagined it to be and my
version of the Assamites /really/ looks nothing like the Clanbook except
at the most superficial level, and my version of the Gangrel is smarter
than to leave the Camarilla over some idiotic discovery and actually acts
like the Gangrel as described in the main book rather than a plot device,
my guess for my game will be: A) worthless, B) unsupported from now until
the end of time and C) absolutely correct. It will be the Setites.
--
(1) Ignorance of your profession is best concealed by solemnity and silence,
which pass for profound knowledge upon the generality of mankind.
-------"Advice to Officers of the British Army", 1783
Jason D. Corley | ICQ 41199011 | le...@aeonsociety.org
Jason Corley
: Lots of well-thought-out arguments for both the Giovanni and the Settites
: Khementiri.
Uh. Not like there are bad guys from the other Camarilla clans. The
crimes of a single vampire are not placed upon the whole clan unless there
is a lot to be gained by doing so - there generally is not, in the sort of
case we're talking about.
DShomshak
<sean...@iname.com-remove-> writes:
>Stunt Borg wrote:
>> And, yes, this surge of support and victory will likely come at a
>> hidden price, and no end of vampires would be uncertain and uneasy
>> about their new allies ... but Setites truck with the Cam already,
>> far more openly than the Giovanni, and the Setites are *all about*
>> winning people over to see their side of things and making that a
>> desirable thing. The Setites can *SELL* themselves to the Cam, and
>> I, for one, think it would be a lot more fun to watch them try than
>> for the Giovanni to coldly and easily slide into position.
Righto. I don't see a delegation of Setite elders showing up at a Grand
Conclave, caps in hand, to ask if they could join the club, pretty please with
sugar on it. They would approach Inner Circle members and offer very rational
reasons why the Camarilla *needed* to have them. A set of offers that the
Cam's leaders couldn't refuse, because they were just too sweet -- and because
the future without the Setites on board looks too terrifying.
(Of course, having the Setites "in the club" would be pretty terrifying too,
and not because of that "clan of corruptors" claptrap. As others have
mentioned, Justin seems to be trying to move away from the "corruption" bit to
more of an esoteric, cultish aspect, with lots of Lovecraftian secret
knowledge. I think this could be a very cool slant on the clan. They aren't
mad cackling Eeevil, out to drag everyone else down. They just show you truths
about the world, and your own soul, that you really didn't want to know...)
Dean Shomshak
**********************************************************
Send e-mail responses to DSho...@juno.com.
The AOL address is a spam trap.
**********************************************************
John Middleton
of being "accepted" into the Camarilla.
They have, as previously stated, got the warriors to bring in- pre Revised
Serpentis was alarmingly similar to Protean, merely snake orientated (IMO)-
in revised, it became even more physically oriented, and along with the
discipline redistribution (potence for warriors, etc) they have the tools
for front line fighting. Also these setites would be seen as "expendable"
maybe even more than the current crop of Brujah- a good selling point to the
befuddled elders of the Camarilla.
The Masquerade is more important to them, it seems than it is to the
Camarilla, and they have plenty of fingers (whole fists sometimes) in some
very useful corners of society- again this has been mentioned.
One thing that would certainly help them move aside the bad feeling against
them, is the fact that there seem to be so many Followers of Set already
hold key positions in the Camarilla, and could no doubt put in many
"reasonable" suggestions as to why the Followers should be invited again,
greasing the wheels, as it were.
The single, and only flaw in the whole thing that I can think of is:
Why the hell would the Followers of Set want to join the Camarilla?
It's not so much "what have the setites ever done for us" being mooted in
the Camarilla, but "What can we possibly screw out of these idiots in
exchange for our proud individuality." being chewed over ( :o) ) by the
slobbering priests of Set.
I haven't been catching up on the new books, maybe someone has noticed a
good rason why the Followers would want to join the Camarilla, because I
can't think of any.
cheers
John
Jason Corley <cor...@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:826fk4$e6a$2...@news.ccit.arizona.edu...
Jeremy Belton
>Lots of well-thought-out arguments for both the Giovanni and the Settites
>joining the Camarilla. I'm edging towards the Settites myself, since many
>of the arguments have impressed me. Unfortunately, in my campaign, we,
err,
>kinda destroyed Set and the vast majority of the Elder Settites.
>
Funny, same thing happened in my game. Only it wasn't just the Elders, it
was ALL settites. Except one. I think this is all because my early days of
vampire were all "lets kill the Settites and the Tremere" games. I musta
raided more Tremere chantries than all the Warrior Salubri combined. Anyway,
This is what happened to Set in my game.
See, after Ravnos got cooked, the Settite ancients took it as a sign that it
was time to wake their dark god. So, they summoned all the settites of the
world to one place...for some reason I still haven't decided on, that place
was Seattle. They also brought the sleeping form of Set. So they got allllll
the Settites to Seattle, and promptly sacrificed all of the younger, weaker
ones to wake Set. Set woke up, and promptly ate all the Elders, leaving him
as the sole surviving Settite. He then wandered off to start eating other
vamps and doin the whole Gehenna thing, when a powerful Nephandus flung
himself before him and offered to serve him. Set said something along the
lines of "sure, whatever" and embraced him, which wasn't in the Nephandus's
plans.
Anyway, it ended with the PCs getting into direct conflict with Set and
losing horribly, as is to be expected. Then Irad showed up. Irad, childe of
Caine. 2nd generation Irad. He pretty much made Set his bitch, yelled at him
for diablerizing his childe Osiris, then offered the Ravnos in the party
Set's neck.
So, the only settite left alive is a 4th generation neonate who is pissed
because he used to be Awakened. The Ravnos have a new antediluvian. Oh, and
theres a Virtual Adept and a Khan Bastet who have just been embraced...by
Irad.
In case you're wondering, yes, this is a Gehenna chronicle. The 2nd
generation, all 4 of them, are awake and are killing off the antes and
starting over by making a bunch of new third gens. Thing is certain
resourceful elders of other clans (read: clans I like) will diablerize these
neonate 3rd gens, thus ressurecting their clans. I get to totally
restructure vampiric society to my tastes, and keep it in the plotline.
Wheee :P
--
Jeremy Belton
"You're Quasi-Evil. You're Semi-Evil. You're the
Margarine of Evil. You're the Diet Coke of Evil.
Juse one calorie, not Evil enough."
-Dr. Evil
Webwalker
> Webwalker wrote:
>> Exactly. In the past, the Sabbat has been somewhat uncaring towards the
>> Giovanni. A kind of "You're too small to bother with, unless you actually
>> do something to us that pisses us off." attitude is changing to a "Kill
>> the Giovanni." due tot he presence of the Harbingers of Skulls. And much
>> as the Sabbat doesn't like to really admit it, they are based on power,
>> first and foremost... and the Harbingers of Skulls have a rather large
>> amount of power.
> Individually, yes. Collectively, the HoS remain too small to overly influence
> policy. They might promote a more agressive approach to the Giovanni, and
> that, in turn, might determine which cities start getting attacked. But the
> HoS are still playing third fiddle to the Lasombra/Tzimisce and the Antitribu
> in the power scale - And they are still both saying: "Full steam ahead, Die
> Camarilla, Die!" Wouldn't jumping to the Camarilla to escape the Sabbat kinda
> be like leaping from the proverbial frying pan?
Might be. But then again, as it stands right now, the Giovanni
have a bunch of wraiths and spirits to protect themselves against the HoS.
If they joined the Camarilla, they'd have Brujah and the remaining
Gangrel. You may be a larger target now... but they've got more
protection too.
> Besides!! The Giovanni in the Camarilla is boring! Boring!! They fit too damn
> well! *flails uselessly against the tide of Giovanni supporters* ;-)
That's true, unfortunately. And, unfortunately, they seem to be
the best candidates for it. Which of the other two can, as a _clan_,
decide to join th eCamarilla as a _clan_? The Assamites are fractured
anyway, and if they rank and file didn't want to join, they could always
join their brethren in the Sabbat. The Settites... _maybe_. As a clan,
they make it more interesting. But then again, they are reviled, hated
and feared by the other clans, so I can't htink of a _good_ reason for
them to join the Camarilla.
>> Reasons why NO the Assamites and the Settites:
>>
>> Assamites: The Camarilla won't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. Not
>> suprising, since the Assamites don't want to deal with Ur-Shulgi. He's
>> the most powerful Vampiric Mage on the planet. He woke up, yawned, broke
>> the Tremere Curse, then rubbed the sleep from his eyes. If the Assamites
>> were to join... well, the Tremre would be dead.
> Hehe. I just got an image... "sunday, Sunday SUNDAY!! Goatrix vs. Ur-Shulgi in
> a no-holds barred, barbed wire steel cage match! Only on Pay Per View!"
> Ahem! Sorry. Out of my system.
> That said, I think the Assamites, whilst impressively powerful, wouldn't beat
> the Tremere. One powerhouse does not an offensive make, and in collective
> ass-whupping capability, I'd put my money on the versatile and downright nasty
> Tremere.
Maybe not... but you toss in Al-Ashrad, and the others, and you've
got a group that could kick the shit out of the Tremre Inner Circle.
Hands down. It took the Tremere Inner Circle to put the curse on the
Assamites in the first place; ONE lick broke it, without so much as a
second thought about it...
>> Also, why the hell would the Assamites take contracts for 14th
>> and 15th gen kindred? They would rather take one 8th than 100 15th, and I
>> don't see the Camarilla saying to them; "Okay, for every 100 Thin Blooded
>> you kill, we'll sacrafise an 8th gen or two. Deal?"
> I know. Puzzles the hell out of me, too.
I can't think of a good reason why, and until I do, I'm not going to
seriously consider this as a reason for them joining. ('course, if there
is a good reason, then I'm more than willing to listen. :) )
>> Settites: I'm not sure we've gotten the whole story on the
>> Settites. They seem to be rather one-dimensional... then in VRev, they
>> became really cool (hidden loremasters... excellent) but not much is said
>> about them, that I've read so far. I'd like to think that there is
>> something in the works for them, something as big as it was for the Ravnos
>> (though not quite as genocidal), but I don't think that joining the
>> Camarilla is it. Might be... but I think the Giovanni will join first.
> My main point is still plot interest. The Giovanni are, IMO, far too similar
> to the Ventrue if you whack them in the Camarilla. Both are noted for a mix of
> organised crime and legitimate powerbroking involving extensive manipulation
> of mortal society. The necromancy thing is a point, but one discipline isn't a
> differentiation, IMO.
True enough. I just don't see the Camarilla offering the Settites the
keys to the executive washrooms, as it were... I mean, having a Settite
_Justicar_?
<evil thought>
The Settites join the Camarilla, and name Kemintiri as their
Justicar, seeing as how she's got prior experience and all.
Ryan Franklin
Webwalker <webw...@peekaboospam.icu> wrote:
>Forgive me, Sean, but I had to.
While you're at it, forgive me, too. Might as well.
>join their brethren in the Sabbat. The Settites... _maybe_. As a clan,
>they make it more interesting. But then again, they are reviled, hated
>and feared by the other clans, so I can't htink of a _good_ reason for
>them to join the Camarilla.
Well, the Camarilla are far from being "Good Guys" in any meaningful way.
They are, to be perfectly honest, a bunch of total bastards whose sole
"nice" feature is that, by and large, they don't ask a whole lot of the
individuals who "belong" to them, except in a narrowly-defined set of
circumstances.
>True enough. I just don't see the Camarilla offering the Settites the
>keys to the executive washrooms, as it were... I mean, having a Settite
>_Justicar_?
Well, sheesh, if you're going to give the _Malkavians_ a Justicar,
obviously you don't care _too_ much about the qualifications of the people
assigned to the job. ;-)
And there are some very practical reasons for appointing a Setite
Justicar; for one, who _else_ is going to be able to keep the Ventrue,
Tremere, Nosferatu, and Toreador Justicars (all of whom, I am sure, must
be profoundly devious, capable, power-mad nasty-minded scheming liars and
thugs if they managed to snag such a prestige job over their viciously
backstabbing clanmates) on their toes? Sure, the Setite has an evil
agenda--but at least you have a reasonably clear idea of what that agenda
_is_. The evil you know, blah blah blah, and all that.
Me, if I were a member of any non-Setite clan and I heard the Setites were
going to be signing up with my cabal of untrustworthy allies, I'd be
trying to think of it in terms of "what do I get out of this deal?"...and
one answer that leaps to mind is "man, those clowns in Clan Foo and Clan
Bar who have been plotting against me are going to have someone _else_ to
worry about for a change--I can feel the pressure dropping already!"
--
body checks into the plexiglass, and balances
ry...@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu
cthulhuslushee
seems taken, the assamites seem a bit too...hungry lately, and the
gangrel just left. Remember that, back in the dark ages, the setites
were accepted in at least one place, constantinople, and some of the
survivors from there who are in the cam might conceivably lend weight
to allowing the setites in (or equally conceivably, against them;
there's no strong reason why either would naturally occur, though that
could be a viable justification for allowing the setites to join).
Given that at least some of the higher ups in the cam are aware that
the antideluvians are rising, they're probably going to be more
frenzied than ever to get allies against the coming apocalypse. The
setites are a wildcard, and probably a more viable one than the Gangrel
(who just said fuck you to the cam) or the others, and who seem to
possess all sorts of secret knowledge and such which might aid in the
search for a way to defeat the antideluvians.
BTW, does anyone know if plans to revise the setite CB (or any of the
others, for that matter) are in the works to fit with the newer themes
in revised? Just curious.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Stunt Borg
> Settites... _maybe_. As a clan, they make it more interesting.
> But then again, they are reviled, hated and feared by the other
> clans, so I can't htink of a _good_ reason for them to join the
> Camarilla.
All the better, then! They come up to Justicars and members of the
Inner Circle and *SELL* themselves persuasively, making offers of
what they can provide (we have 'neutral' assets in *all* of the
East Coast cities you just got kicked out of, people). Maybe they
even toss over a staked Kemintiri to sweeten the deal. And they do
it, they sell it, they make themselves indispensible. They get in,
much to the uncertainty and fear of a *lot* of Cam vampires.
Because there's questions that no one has an answer for:
Why the hell are the Setites doing this?! What's in it for them?!
Never answer this question. The Setites, if asked, will make
platitudes about striking at the Serpents of Light, or seeing the
beauty of the vision of the Camarilla, or having more opportunities
for interaction, or the opportunity to establish Princedoms in the
United States, or just smile enigmatically and say nothing. Nobody
will believe any of this ... even if it's true.
This should be infuriating. This should drive other vampires mad
with paranoia, because *nobody* just does a good turn for no
reason in general Cammie experience. And the nicer and more eager
and more helpful and more altruistic you make the Setites, the more
totally baffled and paranoid others will be (on the inside). All the
while, of course, the others will be making efforts to tie the
Setites into prestation debts and positions of service ... but *why*
are the Setites doing this? As you say, *there's no good reason*.
Which is exactly why you should have them do it.
(snip ... on the Assamites hiring on to scourge thin-blooded)
> I can't think of a good reason why, and until I do, I'm not going
> to seriously consider this as a reason for them joining. ('course,
> if there is a good reason, then I'm more than willing to listen.
> :) )
1) The thin-blooded are bait ... someone with Real Power will try to
use them and exploit them. If a Cammie does this, it's clearly a
violation of the Traditions (these anarchs haven't presented
themselves, and *you knew about it* and consorted?!?!?!). If a
Sabbat does this, soon enough there'll be a pack leader to munch
on. The Assamite can position themselves to ultimately emerge from
the shadows at the right time (never mind Quietus beyond level 1
... Obfuscate baby, lots of it) and kill the manipulator with the
prince's full support. Just intimidate the anarch rabble enough to
keep them in line ... and to lure more real prey.
2) The thin-blooded are practice. Yer a neonate Assamite. You've hunted
and killed your share of mortal targets in ghoul-hood, and maybe even
snagged a Lick or two. But you've got to keep your skills fresh, and
that demands real prey. Cull the herd of a weak member now and again,
to spread fear (keeping the anarchs in line ... doing your job,
incidentally :) ) and to keep yourself in good form. The Munafiqun
are *paying* you to keep in top form. Why not?
3) The thin-blooded are an easy meal ticket. You have a *job*, with
*prestige* and *power* that lets you earn favors from powerful
Kindred. You're fricking immortal ... think long term. Sooner or
later (likely later), a target worth whacking for blood will come
along (independent or Sabbat, of course! You *never* think of doing
this to a Cammie vampire, obviously! :) ). When that tasty morsel
comes along, do you want to be some gormless moron trying to sneak
up on the morsel with no backing at all, or do you want to be a
badass of means who can call in some favors and get all those
hoity-toity Cammie vamps to use their little power networks to dig
up some information and vulnerabilities and cannon fodder that you
can really use?
Do you want to be some lone assassin trying to pull this off and
not get caught as the killer (because if you're caught, it's Blood
Hunt time ... and you only have to get caught *once*)? Or would you
rather want to be able to bend some ears and call in some favors
and pick out some vulnerable target and get *them* Blood Hunted?
Then you can do the deed totally legit. Nobody has to know about the
diablerie ... and if anyone finds out, it's borderline anyway, and
you've got a *job* that no one else wants to do and favors to call on
and ... maybe they'll just overlook it, huh?
This works well with individual Assamites. It's harder to broaden to
the whole Clan, true. But you can play an intelligent, interesting
Cammie Assamite even if they are a total cookie-cutter killer.
And if they aren't a total cookie-cutter killer, all the better.
> >> Settites: I'm not sure we've gotten the whole story on
> >> the Settites. They seem to be rather one-dimensional... then
> >> in VRev, they became really cool (hidden loremasters...
> >> excellent) but not much is said about them, that I've read so
> >> far.
One *massive* step back in Children of the Night ... that Setite
who's smooth an suave and 'descended in a holy way straight from
Set' and ... well, frankly, OOC lumped as pure EEEEEEEEEEEVIL ...
*sigh*
Ignore that, and they've done much better work on the Setites. The
two best Setite write-ups are actually written from other people's
perspectives, and play up the mystery and temptation elements well.
The first is in Dark Ages Companion in the writeup of the Via
Serpentis ... the Brujah chronicler is sorely, sorely tempted by a
calm, well-spoken, erudite Setite. The second is in Ghouls: Fatal
Addiction, where the leaders of the Underground Railroad for ghouls
speak about having received offers from 'a group calling themselves
Setites ... no strings attached'. Perfectly nuanced.
Setites are mysterious. Setites are *very* tempting, and *very*
persuasive. Most are on Humanity, as of V3. Others are on Warrior
or Ecstasy. Keep the Typhon crap in the background, and most people
should have no idea what to make of the Snakes ... they'll just know
that they are sorely, sorely tempted.
What's behind the smile? ... Whatever you, the ST, want :)
> True enough. I just don't see the Camarilla offering the Settites
> the keys to the executive washrooms, as it were... I mean, having a
> Settite _Justicar_?
The Setites might get 'probationary' membership (although this
would obviously be called something else ... 'transitionary
exposure', 'assistance in assimilation', or whatever). No Justicar
for the moment, but if they prove themselves well, their case would be
reviewed at the next Justicar-selecting Conclave in 12 years. So
there's all kinds of impetus for the Setites to *perform* in this
next decade, and a battle to win the prestige and debts from others
to attain full membership.
Now *that* would be fun to watch! Giovanni? ... boooooring!
> <evil thought>
>
> The Settites join the Camarilla, and name Kemintiri as their
> Justicar, seeing as how she's got prior experience and all.
Nice idea, but it wouldn't work. The Red List is a universal Blood
Hunt, and Blood Hunts are *forever*. In joining the Camarilla, the
Setites would be agreeing to abide by the Red List, as well.
Honestly, they'd do well to stake and offer up Kemintiri as a
sweetener to the deal (and obviously they would do this in the PC's
city in any campaign you run ... that's an image!). 'Proof of
trustworthiness and willingness' and all that rot.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
thinks that Setites should be the *nicest*, *kindest*
vampires with the *biggest*, *warmest* smiles ... creeps
out everyone else like you would not believe
Stunt Borg
> Lots of well-thought-out arguments for both the Giovanni and the
> Settites joining the Camarilla. I'm edging towards the Settites
> myself, since many of the arguments have impressed me.
(snip)
> the #1 reason WHY the Settites aren't likely to join the
> Camarilla:
>
> Khementiri.
>
> Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean,
> masquerading as Ventrue Justicar is not something that you get off
> lightly.
Yeah, Kemintiri's a big sore spot.
Clearly, the Setites should stake Kemintiri and offer her up to the
Camarilla to 'prove their willingness'. Do this in the PC's city at
Elysium, with the PCs in attendance. Watch objection to the Setite
offer melt away ... or at least have little solid ground to stand on.
All the objections are innuendo and distrust. The Setites, if they *do
things* to build debts and PR, can slither right past that. If you
play them smart.
Paul Lowe Hlavacek
wouldn't play them any other way
Kish
Robin Lim wrote in message ...
>the Camarilla:
>
>Kemintiri.
>
>Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean, masquerading as
>Ventrue Justicar is not something that you get off lightly.
And Kemintiri loathes the other Setites in general and Set in particular, too. Saying Kemintiri would stop the Setites
from joining the Camarilla is only slightly better than saying the Camarilla wouldn't take the Setites because there are
Setites in the Sabbat.
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.com
Jeremy Belton
>
>Ah, war stories. I don't think we had too many kill the Settites and
>Tremere games, but I know the sentiment :)
>
I have no real good explaination for why we did this, but for some reason in
my earliest games, as a player, the Settites and Tremere ranked as the top
bad guys. I think it could be because they were the most likely to have
nifty magical goodies, which was a major driving force behind our characters
in those days. Of course, we also had frequent, friendly meetings with
Gangrel, Brujah, and Hassam (who had a different name, but I don't remember
it).
>> In case you're wondering, yes, this is a Gehenna chronicle. The 2nd
>> generation, all 4 of them, are awake and are killing off the antes and
>> starting over by making a bunch of new third gens. Thing is certain
>> resourceful elders of other clans (read: clans I like) will diablerize
>these
>> neonate 3rd gens, thus ressurecting their clans. I get to totally
>> restructure vampiric society to my tastes, and keep it in the plotline.
>> Wheee :P
>
>Sounds good :)
>
>rob
>
It is an interesting idea, if I say so myself. Thing is, it didn't go so
well in execution...I don't know why, the players just don't seem "into" the
thing. I'm gonna have a "What do we want out of our Chronicle?" session
tomorrow to see what I should be doing with this plotline.
I think the rest of the chronicle will probably end up being a Ante hunting
fest. Next up on the hit list: Tzimisce...hes awake, hes in new york, and
hes Awakened (in my games, this part of this clanbook is true). This is all
going to happen based on player input tomorrow. For all I know, we could end
up playing AD&D. And then theres the one guy who really wants to run rifts
with TMNT characters...blech.
Doug Kern
<cthulhu_slu...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> My vote is for the setites as well. The Giovanni's archtypical
> seems taken, the assamites seem a bit too...hungry lately, and the
> gangrel just left. Remember that, back in the dark ages, the setites
> were accepted in at least one place, constantinople, and some of the
> survivors from there who are in the cam might conceivably lend weight
> to allowing the setites in (or equally conceivably, against them;
> there's no strong reason why either would naturally occur, though that
> could be a viable justification for allowing the setites to join).
> Given that at least some of the higher ups in the cam are aware that
> the antideluvians are rising, they're probably going to be more
> frenzied than ever to get allies against the coming apocalypse. The
> setites are a wildcard, and probably a more viable one than the Gangrel
> (who just said fuck you to the cam) or the others, and who seem to
> possess all sorts of secret knowledge and such which might aid in the
> search for a way to defeat the antideluvians.
I am going with the Setites as well, they just seem more interesting to
use then the Giovanni, and also add better playing options then the
Giovanni would. That and they alse were orriginally given invitation to
join, plus there already some outstanding and respected Setites who are
already members.
> BTW, does anyone know if plans to revise the setite CB (or any of the
> others, for that matter) are in the works to fit with the newer themes
> in revised? Just curious.
>
Yep they are bring redone. Nosferatu and Brujah are shown in the
Winter 2000 Catalogue. The revidsed books will be larger too. Now the
sooner they could fix up Malkavian and Gangrel, the better.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
--
Doug Kern
AKA Monocle
ICQ Page #:8793444
dke...@idt.net
Homepage: http://idt.net/~dkern2
Come visit the Shrine to Blackarachnia!:http://idt.net/~dkern2/Blackarachnia
Kish
Robin Lim wrote in message ...
>and particularly, the Ventrue. It's not like she killed a bunch of people
>or anything, she pretended to be a Ventrue Justicar and GOT AWAY WITH IT!
>She made an absolute laughing stock out of the Ventrue! To be sure, that's
>much, much worse than just killing a large number of Elders and diablerizing
>them. I'm sure Hardestadt remembers the insult with exacting clarity.
>
>But yes, the Setites would wash their hands of such affairs as
>diplomatically as possible. The question is whether those hard-nosed
>Ventrue will live the Setites.
They might not...but I doubt it'd be because of Kemintiri. Her Red List description gives her Allegiance: None, not
Setites. I don't get the impression the Ventrue really associate Kemintiri with the Setite clan.
Brandon Quina
> I have no real good explaination for why we did this,
*chuckles*
My only comment on this subject will be -- I have some vampire PCs on haitus
(i.e., we haven't played them for ages) that are convinced that Natural Diasters
are not real. Instead, Natural Diasters are just the "foci" for the destruction
and mayhem that results when a "Mini-Gehenna" occurs and the Technocracy has to
think of an excuse that the mundane world will buy after they finish putting
their Bandaid on.
Brandon,
ahhhh, the old days -- back when my games were *much* simpler
Christopher Adams
Flacco rocks.
--
Christopher Adams
A man of no fortune, and with a name to come.
Vice-President SUTEKH 2000
Librarian PAGUS 2000
"There can be only" ONE WAY
- Street sign, Highlander Lane, Melbourne
"You wash your mouth out with - Hank!"
- Hank Kingsley, "The Larry Sanders Show"
Beau Yarbrough
acea...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Personally, i don't see what keeps the Brujah from mass migrating to
> California and going Anarch. They could fight the Kindredof the East
> and make an new government again. What could make them happier.
Well, whether or not they agree with the Camarilla about everything,
the population of the Anarch Free States is already waaaay too top-
heavy with vampires. The Masquerade's VERY thin already. I think most
Brujah are reluctant to get staked (especially now that there are
Hunters around) by moving to Vampire Central.
Sailor Star Kitsune
Giovani have one other thing going for them in a sort of Unholy alliance nasty
sorta way. The Gios are guilty of the same crime that the Tremere are. They
have a lot in common. Also I think out of the clan disciplines that the Gios
have the least obvious (as opposed to turning into a snake, being unnaturally
quiet, or the whole popping claws glowing eyes turning into wolf thing)
Tzimisce and Lasombra, both laughable ideas to me.
Assamites maybe used as scourges and enforcer types but nothing more. Unless
those Assamite magic workers (I forget the term...) team with the Tremere in
some joint magic research.
Setites are a possibility and I like the idea but I think its unlikely.
Sailor Star Kitsune
A witches advice: Practice safe hex.
"Everybody is a book of blood;
Wherever we're opened,
We're red."--Clive Barker
The lie and the truth are both in me. -Lyric from Sabre Marionet J
http://members.aol.com/WildDruid/main.html
Robin Lim
<acea...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:826ocr$tg9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Very interesting.
>
> But I think there might be a bigger twist.
>
> Two Clans
>
> Losombra Antitribu and the Giovanni
The only thing about the Lasombra-antitribu is that they already ARE in the
Camarilla. That's why they're listed in the Camarilla book :)
rob
Robin Lim
Jeremy Belton <gi...@mint.net> wrote in message
news:826v6g$523$1...@ruby.mint.net...
> Robin Lim wrote in message ...
>
> was ALL settites. Except one. I think this is all because my early days of
> vampire were all "lets kill the Settites and the Tremere" games. I musta
> raided more Tremere chantries than all the Warrior Salubri combined.
Anyway,
> This is what happened to Set in my game.
Ah, war stories. I don't think we had too many kill the Settites and
Tremere games, but I know the sentiment :)
> See, after Ravnos got cooked, the Settite ancients took it as a sign that
it
> was time to wake their dark god. So, they summoned all the settites of the
> world to one place...for some reason I still haven't decided on, that
place
> was Seattle. They also brought the sleeping form of Set. So they got
allllll
> the Settites to Seattle, and promptly sacrificed all of the younger,
weaker
> ones to wake Set. Set woke up, and promptly ate all the Elders, leaving
him
> as the sole surviving Settite. He then wandered off to start eating other
> vamps and doin the whole Gehenna thing, when a powerful Nephandus flung
> himself before him and offered to serve him. Set said something along the
> lines of "sure, whatever" and embraced him, which wasn't in the
Nephandus's
> plans.
Well, in my campaign, they awoke Set. Only, between the efforts of
Khementiri, the PCs, and Brujah, Set was decapitated. Khementiri used her
nasty-ass Bardo on Set, which worked, to everyone's surprise, and, well,
wham. People were trying to levitate Set's collapsed bodyt around, and
finally Khementiri got her paws on him, all ready to do the dirty deed, when
WHAP out comes Brujah.
> Anyway, it ended with the PCs getting into direct conflict with Set and
> losing horribly, as is to be expected. Then Irad showed up. Irad, childe
of
> Caine. 2nd generation Irad. He pretty much made Set his bitch, yelled at
him
> for diablerizing his childe Osiris, then offered the Ravnos in the party
> Set's neck.
>
> So, the only settite left alive is a 4th generation neonate who is pissed
> because he used to be Awakened. The Ravnos have a new antediluvian. Oh,
and
> theres a Virtual Adept and a Khan Bastet who have just been embraced...by
> Irad.
>
acea...@my-deja.com
> The only thing about the Lasombra-antitribu is that they already ARE
in the
> Camarilla. That's why they're listed in the Camarilla book :)
>
> rob
>
And there is a differance between being a member of the inner circle.
Robin Lim
They bribe the Tremere with new Thaumaturgy Paths and Rituals. We all know
who the REAL power in the Camarilla is :)
rob
Robin Lim
Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.10.991202...@nevis.u.arizona.edu...
> On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Robin Lim wrote:
>
> > Lots of well-thought-out arguments for both the Giovanni and the
> > Settites joining the Camarilla. I'm edging towards the Settites
> > myself, since many of the arguments have impressed me.
>
> (snip)
>
> > Camarilla:
> >
> > Khementiri.
> >
> > Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean,
> > masquerading as Ventrue Justicar is not something that you get off
> > lightly.
>
>
> Clearly, the Setites should stake Kemintiri and offer her up to the
> Camarilla to 'prove their willingness'. Do this in the PC's city at
> Elysium, with the PCs in attendance. Watch objection to the Setite
> offer melt away ... or at least have little solid ground to stand on.
I doubt they'd go to the trouble, but Khementiri isn't exactly POPULAR with
her own kind, either. They all recognize she's got her own agenda.
rob
Robin Lim
Kish <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:827apa$ob2$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> Robin Lim wrote in message ...
join
> >the Camarilla:
> >
> >Kemintiri.
> >
> >Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean, masquerading as
> >Ventrue Justicar is not something that you get off lightly.
>
>
too. Saying Kemintiri would stop the Setites
> from joining the Camarilla is only slightly better than saying the
Camarilla wouldn't take the Setites because there are
> Setites in the Sabbat.
All I'm saying is that Khementiri is a major sore sport with the Camarilla,
and particularly, the Ventrue. It's not like she killed a bunch of people
or anything, she pretended to be a Ventrue Justicar and GOT AWAY WITH IT!
She made an absolute laughing stock out of the Ventrue! To be sure, that's
much, much worse than just killing a large number of Elders and diablerizing
them. I'm sure Hardestadt remembers the insult with exacting clarity.
But yes, the Settites would wash their hands of such affairs as
diplomatically as possible. The question is whether those hard-nosed
Ventrue will live the Settites.
rob
Angela Christine
>I suppose we should also remember that, according to the camarilla, all
>vampires are members.
Yes, but you only get a Justicar if your Clan is an offical member.
>so we really have to look at it from a clan aspect not
>a Camarilla aspect. Who has the most to gain by joining the Camarilla? again
>i would say the Giovanni.
Hmm... How about the Salburi? You know, just mess with the minds of the
Tremere.
I think the Malkavians would recomend the Setites, simply because then
they could do spoofs of Settite meetings... they could call themselves
The Followers of {} (the empty set) :)
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the time it has taken you to read this,
your personal computer has become obsolete.
The Patricks
> Tremere.
I doubt it. See, the Tremere have used the last several centuries make it appear
that the Salubri were soul-eaters and demon Kindred; not all the clans believe in
this rumor, and those that are old enough to remember Saulot and his childer know
the truth. I take it in much the same way the Ventrue clanbook states it: the
Camarilla feels rather sorry that Saulot was destroyed, since they were such a
nice and kind clan. Oh, and if you see one, be sure to sell the information to
the Tremere.
> I think the Malkavians would recomend the Setites, simply because then
> they could do spoofs of Settite meetings... they could call themselves
> The Followers of {} (the empty set) :)
The Setites were offered the chance to join the Camarilla in the past, but they
turned it down (much to the relief of the Camarilla clans). The reason lies in
the fact that the Setites don't see themselves in the way most "normal" clans do.
They don't really see themselves as vampires; instead, they are the undead
servants of a sleeping dark god. In order to stay focused in their service of
Set, they can't exactly become divided in their loyalties by joining a sect.
Regards,
Sirrus McGregor
--
"When I was driving once I saw this painted on a bridge:
'I don't want the world; I just want your half.'"
-- They Might Be Giants, "Ana Ng"
"I see that there is evil
And I know that there is good
And the in-betweens I never understood..."
-- Ben Folds Five, "Philosophy"
"It's going to happen very soon. The great event which will end the horror. Which
will end the sorrow. Next Tuesday, when the sun goes down, I will play the
Moonlight Sonata backwards. This will reverse the effects of the world's mad
plunge into suffering, for the last 200 million years. What a lovely night that
would be. What a sigh of relief, as the senile robins become bright red again,
and the retired nightingales, pick up their dusty tails, and assert the majesty
of creation."
-- Leonard Cohen, "The Great Event"
David Johnston
of hundred people picking that name for themselves. It's more like
the Anarch Village.
Sean Riley
> Well, whether or not they agree with the Camarilla about everything,
> the population of the Anarch Free States is already waaaay too top-
> heavy with vampires. The Masquerade's VERY thin already. I think most
> Brujah are reluctant to get staked (especially now that there are
> Hunters around) by moving to Vampire Central.
The other thing, as Justin Achilli pointed out on Ex Libris Nocturnis, is
that the Brujah prize rebellion more than the products of the rebellion,
somewhat. As a result, they can't leave the Camarilla... cause what then
would there be to rebel against? It's a wonderful paradox, they're
effectively one of the most loyal clans to the Camarilla there is.
Certaintly more loyal than the Malkavians and Tremere, probably more loyal
than the Nosferatu.
Cheers,
Sean
--
"Sensing my immediate need to attempt not to die, he graciously postponed
all discussion about Lemurs until I had a chance to rest." - John Cleese
Sean Riley
sean...@iname.com
Slave to my Players
Kish
David Johnston wrote in message <38480E...@telusplanet.net>...
>You know, one thing I find funny about that lot is a group of a couple
>of hundred people picking that name for themselves. It's more like
>the Anarch Village.
>
Anarch Free States (which take up much of California) are noted as being massively overpopulated with that couple
hundred.
Kristopher/EOS
>
> Stunt Borg <p...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
> news:Pine.A41.4.10.991202...@nevis.u.arizona.edu...
>> On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Robin Lim wrote:
>>
>>> Lots of well-thought-out arguments for both the Giovanni and the
>>> Settites joining the Camarilla. I'm edging towards the Settites
>>> myself, since many of the arguments have impressed me.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> Camarilla:
>>>
>>> Khementiri.
>>>
>>> Doesn't she top the Kindred Most Wanted list? I mean,
>>> masquerading as Ventrue Justicar is not something that
>>> you get off lightly.
>>
>>
>> Clearly, the Setites should stake Kemintiri and offer her
>> up to the Camarilla to 'prove their willingness'. Do this
>> in the PC's city at Elysium, with the PCs in attendance.
>> Watch objection to the Setite offer melt away ... or at
>> least have little solid ground to stand on.
Oh, I'd like to see the Setites try.
> I doubt they'd go to the trouble, but Khementiri isn't
> exactly POPULAR with her own kind, either. They all
> recognize she's got her own agenda.
Yeah...to kill Set.
Kristopher/EOS
Stella
Webwalker wrote:
> That's true, unfortunately. And, unfortunately, they seem to be
> the best candidates for it. Which of the other two can, as a _clan_,
> decide to join th eCamarilla as a _clan_? The Assamites are fractured
> anyway, and if they rank and file didn't want to join, they could always
> join their brethren in the Sabbat. The Settites... _maybe_. As a clan,
> they make it more interesting. But then again, they are reviled, hated
> and feared by the other clans, so I can't htink of a _good_ reason for
> them to join the Camarilla.
>
>
anyone think it is possible that a faction of assamites may join the cam?i wouldn't
like it, but it _would_ be interesting....
Kish
acea...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
><snip>
>> The only thing about the Lasombra-antitribu is that they already ARE
>in the
>> Camarilla. That's why they're listed in the Camarilla book :)
>>
>> rob
>>
>The Losombra Antitribu are not joined as a group only as individuals.
1) The term Lasombra /antitribu/ refers specifically to a Lasombra in the Camarilla, doesn't it?
2) Only clans are allowed to have Inner Circle members, and the Lasombra /antitribu/ are not a clan.
Thomas Weinbrenner
>acea...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>The Losombra Antitribu are not joined as a group only as individuals.
>>And there is a difference between being a member of the inner circle.
>1) The term Lasombra /antitribu/ refers specifically to a Lasombra in the Camarilla, doesn't it?
IMHO Lucita is often called antitribu, but she is more independent than
Camarilla.
>2) Only clans are allowed to have Inner Circle members, and the Lasombra /antitribu/ are not a clan.
Do we know exactly who is in the Inner Circle?
Montano is the oldest (surviving) Lasombra Methusela!!!
We shouldn't compare him to young 4th gens like Etrius or Goratrix.
He is probably a manipulator as skilled as Ur-Shulgi's magic and
fighting abilitites.
Even if he isn't in the Inner Circle, he should be able to manipulate
them to do what he wants.
Kish
Thomas Weinbrenner wrote in message <82957n$199$1...@weinbrenner.ddns.org>...
>Kish <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>acea...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>>The Losombra Antitribu are not joined as a group only as individuals.
>>>And there is a difference between being a member of the inner circle.
>
>
>>1) The term Lasombra /antitribu/ refers specifically to a Lasombra in the Camarilla, doesn't it?
>
>IMHO Lucita is often called antitribu, but she is more independent than
>Camarilla.
Her writeup on www.white-wolf.com makes her sound pretty Camarilla to me. I'm not sure of that one, though.
>
>>2) Only clans are allowed to have Inner Circle members, and the Lasombra /antitribu/ are not a clan.
>
>Do we know exactly who is in the Inner Circle?
No, just that it's one member of each of the six remaining Camarilla clans (GttC).
>
>Montano is the oldest (surviving) Lasombra Methuselah!!!
>We shouldn't compare him to young 4th Generations like Etrius or Goratrix.
>
>He is probably a manipulator as skilled as Ur-Shulgi's magic and
>fighting abilities.
>
>Even if he isn't in the Inner Circle, he should be able to manipulate
>them to do what he wants.
And he's already in the Camarilla.
Robin Lim
<acea...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> <snip>
> > The only thing about the Lasombra-antitribu is that they already ARE
> in the
> > Camarilla. That's why they're listed in the Camarilla book :)
> >
> > rob
> >
Yeah, but there aren't enough Lasombra-antitribu to be full-fledged members
of the Inner Circle. I mean seriously, it's not like the Daughters of
Cacophony are...
Hrm. Better not speak too soon :)
rob
Eric Tolle
>
> The other thing, as Justin Achilli pointed out on Ex Libris Nocturnis, is
> that the Brujah prize rebellion more than the products of the rebellion,
> somewhat. As a result, they can't leave the Camarilla... cause what then
> would there be to rebel against? It's a wonderful paradox, they're
I've always thought that. In fact, when the Camarilla does
finally break up, the last ones to leave are going to be the Bruja.
"You can stop protesting man, there's no one left to listen to you."
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
Information does not want to be free. Information wants to be
folded, spindled, mutilated, and used to make funky children's
party hats.
Sean D. Francis
[]Very interesting.
[]
[]But I think there might be a bigger twist.
[]
[]Two Clans
[]
[]Losombra Antitribu and the Giovanni
[]
[]Why? The antitribu will really smack the Sabbat in the nose by
[]extending the protection around their lost brothers. Plus the make the
[]best spies into the Losombra ranks.
<snip>
The key problem with the Lasombra antribu is their numbers. Sure the
handful that still roam the Earth can be recognized members of the
Camarilla and pay tribute to a Camarilla prince, but to actually sit
on the IC, to get a Justicar....I don't think so.
You need numbers to get that kind of power.
Sean D. Francis
http://www.stygianlabyrinth.net/
=Keep up to date with Darkness in the News=
=Read Ariadne's Thread: A Journal of the Dark=
=October 29, 1999 World Premier of Flesh: A Modest Proposal=
Sean D. Francis
<sean...@iname.com-remove-> wrote:
[]Now then - Whom may it be?
The two clans that make the most sense, as has been repeated several
times in this thread are Giovanni and Setites. While many have made a
case for the Gio, having to face the Harbingers...would make a beeline
for the Camarilla the Camarilla doesn't really have a need to bring
them in. Okay, there can be many cases made with several examples of
how the Giovanni could be of use to the Camarilla, but doesn't the Cam
already get their benefits by them being neutral?
And now with the Gio worried, suddenly the prices drop as they
scramble to make friends.
The clan that joins has to have a strong reason to join and is not
just wanted by the Cam but coveted.
Now I'm just talking off the top of my head here, but I can imagine a
situation with the Brujah getting more and more agitated, especially
now they are the main force on the frontlines being commanded by
prissy Toreadors, sacrosanct Ventrue, and enigmatic Tremere. This
agitation (possibly encouraged by the Setites) flares at a council
meeting threatening to tear the Cam apart in another Anarch Revolt.
In steps the Setite. They make it very clear what they can offer to
the Cam in exchange for membership. (as stated elsewhere in this
thread in a marvelously detailed accounting, the Setite offer
frontline warriors, a wanted member of the Red List, powerbases in
many cities the Cam have been locked out of, and expansion into new
areas).
The question is why would they want membership. What would the
Setites gain that they don't already have? They would gain access to
more resources as they could openly transact in Cam territory.
But this is all pretty standard stuff in light of a Millennial event.
I'm thinking this has to do with more Antediluvian activity. Or maybe
Osirus is stirring, or something major. Something major enough that
the Setites realized, despite their power, they need allies.
Sean Riley
> The question is why would they want membership. What would the
> Setites gain that they don't already have? They would gain access to
> more resources as they could openly transact in Cam territory.
>
> But this is all pretty standard stuff in light of a Millennial event.
> I'm thinking this has to do with more Antediluvian activity. Or maybe
> Osirus is stirring, or something major. Something major enough that
> the Setites realized, despite their power, they need allies.
The other thing that could get the ball rolling is Children of Osiris
activity. If this flares up, destroying the Sabbat might be high on the
Setite list of agenda. The Setites and the Sabbat don't get along well at
all, from what I've seen, the Camarilla is far more open to them. Those in
the Camarilla already might start convincing more of the clan to hop in.
Still hoping for an official Justin Achilli hint in the right direction,
Sean.
--
"Tuesday, 9:14pm. I abducted an alien." - Flacco
Sean Riley
AndroidCat
news:82957n$199$1...@weinbrenner.ddns.org...
> Kish <kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >acea...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
> >1) The term Lasombra /antitribu/ refers specifically to a Lasombra in the
Camarilla, doesn't it?
>
> IMHO Lucita is often called antitribu, but she is more independent than
> Camarilla.
>
/antitribu/ are not a clan.
>
> Do we know exactly who is in the Inner Circle?
>
> We shouldn't compare him to young 4th gens like Etrius or Goratrix.
>
> He is probably a manipulator as skilled as Ur-Shulgi's magic and
>
> Even if he isn't in the Inner Circle, he should be able to manipulate
> them to do what he wants.
The funny thing about the Inner Circle, they meet in Venice. This is the
same Venice that the Giovanni have their power base in. That must make for
"Interesting Times".
Ron of that ilk.
AndroidCat
news:zpV14.7659$75.5...@news1.rdc2.on.home.com...
>
> <acea...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8290mt$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > <snip>
> > > The only thing about the Lasombra-antitribu is that they already ARE
> > in the
> > > Camarilla. That's why they're listed in the Camarilla book :)
> > >
> > > rob
> > >
>
> Yeah, but there aren't enough Lasombra-antitribu to be full-fledged
members
> of the Inner Circle. I mean seriously, it's not like the Daughters of
> Cacophony are...
>
> Hrm. Better not speak too soon :)
So... If the Malkavian anti-tribu join the Camarilla, they wouldn't get an
extra seat on the inner circle? Poot! (Okay, cancel plan Z-4 guys!)
Ron of that ilk.
Kish
Falcon of Lugh wrote in message <19991204021408...@ng-xa1.aol.com>...
>>1) The term Lasombra /antitribu/ refers specifically to a Lasombra in the
>>Camarilla, doesn't it?
>
>Independent and Camarilla Lasombra.
Does it?
>
>And where do you get that Montano is in the Camarilla? I truly hope I just
>missed something.
Montano's writeup in Children of the Inquisition: "Montano, Lasombra Antitribu of the Camarilla," as well as the GttC as
Thomas mentioned.
Evil Tyger
"Sean Riley" <sean...@iname.com-remove-> wrote in message
news:3845CFAB...@iname.com-remove-...
...
>
> We can rule out 6 clans instantly - They're already there. Ravnos don't
> count anymore, so they're also out. That leaves us with the Lasombra,
> Tzimisce, Assamites, Gangrel, Giovanni and Setites. Of those, I think
> it's a safe bet not to be the Lasombra or Tzimisce, because without
> either the Sabbat would come crashing down.
Unless, of course, another Clan took their place. However, as it is, this
would require the Ventrue or the Tremere taking leave of the place.
>
> That leaves us, finally, with the independants - Assamite, Gangrel,
> Giovanni, Setites.
>
> Now.. my analysis.
(snip Assamite pro's)
>
> Case against the Assamites: What Assamite on earth wants 15th genner
> blood? Friction is an ironic understatement, the Tremere hate their
> guts, and are arguably the most powerful clan in the Camarilla
> structure. If any get in, it's gonna be a long stretch of the
> imagination to see how those two clans will go. Equally, the Assamites
> have just gotten out of a blood curse put on them by the Camarilla.
> Yeeeah. I see 'em running back right now. In addition, having 'part of'
> a clan is considerably less dramatic than an entire clan moving. Part of
> is, if not routine, seemingly half hearted. Entire clans moving is
> gutsy. And in case you didn't notice, Justin don't care too much if he
> don't make friends.
15th Gen Blood, weak as it may be, is still a few notches above human. The
occasional Sabbat incursion could very well increase the incentive. Besides,
if not getting along with the Tremere were reason to not enter the
Camarilla, there wouldn't BE a Camarilla.
>
> Case for the Gangrel: It's been a year. Gehenna ain't here yet. Sooner
> or later, the Gangrel who left on Xaviers warnings are gonna look at
> their calenders and start deciding he was smoking crack, heading back
> in. They too are experienced trackers and killers, so they might be able
> to help out the thin blooded problems.
>
> Case against the Gangrel: They just left. It's too soon to put em back
> in the can. Uhhh.. Cam.
>
A little more in the 'for' catagory: The Sabbat aren't winning. Gaining
ground, maybe. However, the Cam has the industrialized world fairly well
sewn up. That and the fact that when the 'Day of Judgement' comes along, it
isn't going to be Sabbat against Camarilla & the Ante's. It's going to be
every bloodsucker against every bloodsucker that can only survive on Kindred
Vitae.... and quite a few Sabbat are looking at being the latter when that
time comes.
One year isn't a long time to most Kindred. However, events of that year
will be the telling.
(snip Giovanni pro's)
>
> Case against the Giovanni: The clan has stated time and time again that
> Neutrality is too valuable to lose.
(snip)
> Boston may be in danger, but their true power base is
> in Italy, and despite a Sabbat presence, they're not worried.
Or weren't. Unfortunately, Nautrality doesn't protect the trees from the
chainsaw. The US policy was at one point to remain neutral, there comes a
point in which a choice will have to be made.
> The
> Giovanni are also distinctly inhumane in the way they operate, perhaps
> even moreso than the Assamites or Setites, and that makes them a poor
> choice in the Camarilla.
(coughcough)Gargoyles(Cough)Tremere(hackwheeze)
>
> Case for the Setites: (snipped)
Loyalty to the Clan's Founder as opposed to sucking him dry. Check
>
> Case against the Setites: (snip)
GAH! Burn the LARPers and their Catarina Coffin outfits! ;P
Personally, I'm going to say Gangrel. Despite anything else that's happend,
their basic reasons for joining the Camarilla haven't vanished completely.
Fredrik Nilsson
[Assamite]
I share the view that their history speaks against them.
[Giovanni]
Don't forget their relation with the Samedi speaks
against them. The Samedi are quite powerful for
such a small blood line.
[Setites]
The most likely. Why ?
a. ) They've already been invitated once.
b. ) They already has a quite large presence in the Camarilla.
c. ) The large coverage in the in the guide to the Camarilla.
Fredrik Nilsson
> diplomatically as possible. The question is whether those hard-nosed
> Ventrue will live the Settites.
>
Are we talking about the Ventrue who was the Salubris allies, then
then allied the Tremere.
Are we talking about the Ventrue who was the Cappadocians allies, then
betrayed them.
The point. The ventrues actions aren't very easy to forecast.
Eric Tolle
>
> The key problem with the Lasombra antribu is their numbers. Sure the
> handful that still roam the Earth can be recognized members of the
> Camarilla and pay tribute to a Camarilla prince, but to actually sit
> on the IC, to get a Justicar....I don't think so.
be like waving a red flag, and painting concentric white circles on
their chest...
IMO Lasombra in the Camarilla tend to be _very_ quiet for the most
part. "Lasombra? Me? No, I'm a Ventrue with snappy fashion
sense."
Falcon of Lugh
>goes for independants (like Lucita), Cammy Lassies, and anyone else. If
>you're
>not Sabbat, you're antitribu, since you're "anti-tribe" by not joining the
>predominant Lasombra sect.
Thank you for restating what I said yesterday in a reply.
S.R. Baggett
ICQ # 49699799 | AIM Falcon of Lugh | IRC Juno_Reactor
Falcon of Lugh
>>Independent and Camarilla Lasombra.
>
>
>Does it?
Yes, you should know that.
>Montano's writeup in Children of the Inquisition: "Montano, Lasombra
>Antitribu of the Camarilla," as well as the GttC as
>Thomas mentioned.
Yes, I definately missed something. Oh well.
Jeremy Belton
Robert Geiger wrote in message
<82d1g3$477s$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>Sean Riley wrote in message <3849FC22...@iname.com>...
>>>
>>Hmmm. Vampiric Hokey Pokey is all well and good. Until the Tzimisce get
>playing.
>>
>>"You put your left hand in..."
>>
>>"You put your right hand in..."
>>
>>"You put that other hand in..."
>>
>>
>
>Don't forget the naughty tentacle. H_H
>..
The...erm...naughty tentacle? I'm sorry, but this just doesn't sound right
on a family newsgroup...
--
Jeremy Belton
"You're Quasi-Evil. You're Semi-Evil. You're the
Margarine of Evil. You're the Diet Coke of Evil.
Juse one calorie, not Evil enough."
-Dr. Evil
Sean Riley
> >No. It refers to all Lasombra *not* of the Sabbat. That includes both the
> >Independent and Camarilla Lasombra.
>
> Does it?
That's how I understood it, too. An indepednant Ventrue is also a Ventrue Antitribu, as well. Anyone who goes against the
Clan line is antitribu, and sect is a big part of that. You could argue that in the Tremere, there are tons of Antitribu
within the sect itself, except that they don't voice their opinion and are, as a result, still basically Clan Tremere.
Whereas in Clan Brujah.. there are very, very few Antitribu, and it's amazing they consider the Sabbat Brujah antitribu at
all.
Cheers,Sean.
--
"Sensing my immediate need to attempt not to die, he graciously postponed all discussion about Lemurs until I had a chance
to rest." - John Cleese
Sean Riley
Sean Riley
> Unless, of course, another Clan took their place. However, as it is, this
> would require the Ventrue or the Tremere taking leave of the place.
Highly unlikely. I daresay the Independants are the place to look.
> 15th Gen Blood, weak as it may be, is still a few notches above human. The
> occasional Sabbat incursion could very well increase the incentive. Besides,
> if not getting along with the Tremere were reason to not enter the
> Camarilla, there wouldn't BE a Camarilla.
Very true, but the Tremere have a serious amount of power to simply not let it
happen. Really, the Camarilla I feel will be in a position to dictate terms with
all but the most persuasive of clans. (Stuntborg has argued exactly who is the
most persuasive of clans, hehe)
> A little more in the 'for' catagory: The Sabbat aren't winning. Gaining
> ground, maybe. However, the Cam has the industrialized world fairly well
> sewn up. That and the fact that when the 'Day of Judgement' comes along, it
> isn't going to be Sabbat against Camarilla & the Ante's. It's going to be
> every bloodsucker against every bloodsucker that can only survive on Kindred
> Vitae.... and quite a few Sabbat are looking at being the latter when that
> time comes.
So stay independant and keep the hell out of the entire mess. The Gangrel would
be looking to stay out of the Jyhad as much as possible, I feel.
> One year isn't a long time to most Kindred. However, events of that year
> will be the telling.
True.
> Or weren't. Unfortunately, Nautrality doesn't protect the trees from the
> chainsaw. The US policy was at one point to remain neutral, there comes a
> point in which a choice will have to be made.
Very true. As I've said repeatedly, my main problem with the Giovanni isn't that
their joining doesn't make sense, it's that it makes too much sense and is, as
thus, boring.
> (coughcough)Gargoyles(Cough)Tremere(hackwheeze)
*laughs!* Good point!
> Loyalty to the Clan's Founder as opposed to sucking him dry. Check
So? The Camarilla still states, emphatically, that the Antediluvians don't
exist. If they don't, then their "Quaint Religion" really shouldn't matter at
all. They'd worry more that a Setite temple would get found and break the
Masquerade.
> GAH! Burn the LARPers and their Catarina Coffin outfits! ;P
Hey! I just ST'ed my first LARP the other day. It's actually quite fun, and
lends itself to a lot of different gaming than tabletop. I find it hard to do
degradation based morality stuff than tabletop, but politicking and betrayal is
easy stuff, and great fun.
> Personally, I'm going to say Gangrel. Despite anything else that's happend,
> their basic reasons for joining the Camarilla haven't vanished completely.
I still say that makes no plotline sense. They go in, they come out. Again,
there's no real interest.
Unless, of course, there's additional factors Justin hasn't released yet. ;-)
Justin? Care to comment? *continues to hope for a hint*
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"Tuesday, 9:14pm. I abducted an alien." - Flacco
Sean Riley
Angela Christine
>> Personally, I'm going to say Gangrel. Despite anything else that's happend,
>> their basic reasons for joining the Camarilla haven't vanished completely.
>I still say that makes no plotline sense. They go in, they come out. Again,
>there's no real interest.
You put your Gangrel in
You take your Gangrel out
You put your Gangrel in
And you shake 'em all about
Then you do the Hokey Pokey
And you turn yourself around
That's what it's all about. :)
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What are you afraid of?
Whatever it is, it's here.
That and things you can not imagine.
--Pinhead
Rezcat
Angela Christine <aca.Rem...@telus.net> wrote
Sean Riley
> You put your Gangrel in
> You take your Gangrel out
> You put your Gangrel in
> And you shake 'em all about
>
> Then you do the Hokey Pokey
> And you turn yourself around
> That's what it's all about. :)
Hehe! Cute!
Hmmm. Vampiric Hokey Pokey is all well and good. Until the Tzimisce get playing.
"You put your left hand in..."
"You put your right hand in..."
"You put that other hand in..."
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and caring, let's get back
to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
Robert Geiger
Sean Riley wrote in message <3849FC22...@iname.com>...
>>
>Hmmm. Vampiric Hokey Pokey is all well and good. Until the Tzimisce get
playing.
>
>"You put your left hand in..."
>
>"You put your right hand in..."
>
>"You put that other hand in..."
>
>
Don't forget the naughty tentacle. H_H
..
..
..
..
..
Evil Tyger
"Sean Riley" <sean...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:384989F9...@iname.com...
> Evil Tyger wrote:
>
> > Loyalty to the Clan's Founder as opposed to sucking him dry. Check
>
> So? The Camarilla still states, emphatically, that the Antediluvians don't
> exist. If they don't, then their "Quaint Religion" really shouldn't matter
at
> all. They'd worry more that a Setite temple would get found and break the
> Masquerade.
>
And that STILL does not make sense to me. The Lasombra and Tzimisce were
demonized for sucking their founders dry during the Anarch revolt. The
Tremere's very existance as a Clan rather than a Bloodline would in a very
official Camarilla sense belays it. They know rather easily that their Sires
had more power than they possess, and it doesn't take much brain power to
guess that someone had to Sire him, and so on, until you can barely imagine
what level of power they have, even while possessing some.
I would think this equates to 'not inhaling'. They know it's a lie. Everyone
else knows it's a lie. Everyone jokes openly about it being a lie. And yet
somehow they still think it gets them off on some count. because they can
say it with a straight face.
Brandon L. Quina
> >Don't forget the naughty tentacle. H_H
> right on a family newsgroup...
Since when is agww a family newsgroup?? ;)
Brandon,
but, if you think /that/ is bad, just imagine putting that *thing* on
the back of the Tzimisce clanbook
Adamus
Ur-Shulgi is purging the clan, whacking those who do not worship Haqim
as their One True God. Islamic Assamites aren't quite fond of this.
IMHO the majority of the clan's ruling elders have Islamic backgrounds
(correct me if I'm wrong on this). Result: rebellion against Ur-Shulgi,
a very large faction of the clan breaks off. Now this faction has three
choices: join the Sabbat, join the Cammies, or stay Independent.
Joining the Sabbat is a good choice, though the conservative and
hierarchical Assamite elders might not be too fond of joining a sect
that (supposedly) preaches freedom.
Joining the Cammies, well, hard choice. "Sleeping with the enemy" kind
of thing here. Centuries of enmity between the Camarilla (in general
and the Tremere in particular) and the Clan are not forgotten very
easily. But the Assamites could be of great use to the Camarilla
(Assassins, Scourges, Sheriffs, tactical advisors against Sabbat
sieges, etc).
Staying Independent is dangerous, lots of enemies out there. The
Assamites are not exactly known for their pleasant demeanor.
All in all, tough choice. Time will tell.
Adamus
The Assamites
http://www.assamites.com
Infernalism: the Fall
http://www.assamites.com/scream/
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MoonFish
> cover-ups for
> the Tzimisce-Tremere war!
Flesh and Stone.
Burning.
MoonFish
999