If White-Wolf ever went bust
DB
of the WoD?
Jason Corley
> Would you want them to release a final book which told you all the secrets
> of the WoD?
I don't like the secrets of the WoD they're publishing /now/! :)
--
"He means well for his country, is always an honest man, often a wise man,
but sometimes, and in some things, absolutely out of his senses."
-----Benjamin Franklin, 1783
Jason D. Corley | ICQ 41199011 | le...@aeonsociety.org
S. T. Graves
I think a book with contributions from each of the developers that would
spill their collective guts on what they thought the end would be like (I
know Justin Achilli knows how Vampire ends, or so he says), with additional
material on their unused ideas, with a smidge of developer insight into
their games would completly fucking ROCK. But ONLY if White Wolf was gone
and lost forever.
-----
Shane Graves
Redocorating the apartment according to lifestle
-----
"I'm going to decorate Michael's aprartment! I mean he's gay, how hard can
it be? Chrome, black leather, shower for six and your DONE!"
- Karen "Will & Grace"
Justin Achilli
"S. T. Graves" <thebl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8pej6r$59ue$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> I think a book with contributions from each of the developers that would
> spill their collective guts on what they thought the end would be like (I
> know Justin Achilli knows how Vampire ends, or so he says),
To be fair, I know how it ends under my vision. Surely the other developers,
both current and past, have other perspectives. Of course, so does every
player and Storyteller....
Regards,
Justin
James Kiley
>Would you want them to release a final book which told you all the secrets
>of the WoD?
Do you really think 'they' /know/?
jk
Ben Buckner
Caine wakes with a start. With trepidation he treads into the
bathroom, where he can hear the shower running. From out of the
stall _Abel_ pokes his head. It was all a dream!
Ben B.
"Could you get me a towel, honey?"
winge...@my-deja.com
Oh, I know the end of the WoD. Cain wakes up, looks at the Wyrm, the
Wyrm looks at him, both say "God you're ugly" look at themselves, then
realize, "oh shit", then just return to the natural order of things,
altogether rather anticlimatic.
--
"There are two types of power. There is authority, which can only be
given, and control, which can only be taken."
Wingedbeast, C. Adam Scott, Atheist #1438
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/wingedbeast/index.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
S. T. Graves
> > I think a book with contributions from each of the developers that would
> > spill their collective guts on what they thought the end would be like
(I
> > know Justin Achilli knows how Vampire ends, or so he says),
> To be fair, I know how it ends under my vision. Surely the other
developers,
> both current and past, have other perspectives. Of course, so does every
> player and Storyteller....
Not to put my lips on your ass, but I'd really like to see how YOU envision
WOD/Vampire to end, due to the fact that you pulled some of the ballsiest
development decisions (in a good way) to the setting. I'd like to see how
you envision it ending. And I think that if a book were put together with
each developer writing how THEY would end the WOD, that'd be pretty
interesting. I'd love to see what you, Ethan and Jess each would do if you
weren't sympathetically bound to being consistant with the other games.
I know...no "crossovers" but if Jess envisions Ascension and humanity making
a turn for the better, that wouldn't jive if Ethan destroys the world in the
thrall of the Wyrm. Not that I expect this to happen...this was just an
example.
I think a massive suppliment "Ending the World" would be really neat. Like
I said, you gotta also put in all those extra goodies like "Why I thought it
would end like this" and the self-congratulatroy pats on the back. I'd
certainly shell out hard cash for that.
Ethan Skemp
In article <slrn8rlnki...@eris.io.com>, ten...@eris.io.com (James
Kiley) wrote:
To play counterpoint to Justin, *I* don't. It's very distracting trying to
play what I'd *like* to happen (such as the Red Talons and Fenrir pulling
some stuff that makes the rest of the tribes say "whoa, maybe they've always
been a bit more canny than the rest of us ever gave them credit for) against
what would be *likely* to happen (all the really bad depressing stuff).
Trying to find the mix of acceptable coincidence and logically foregone
conclusion to make a good story is a hell of a lot of work, and I've still
got so much left to do with Werewolf that I'm kind of procrastinating.
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Jess Heinig
Mage in terms of elements to introduce or stories to tell, but not a
substantive "end of the world" scenario. Certainly the world isn't going to
come to global Ascension any time soon, but that still leaves a lot of leeway
between "world blows up" and "world does pretty good." I have some ideas that I
wanna throw out there in story terms, but overall I like giving players the
room to make changes to their own game worlds -- let the mage characters have
the chance to influence the course of destiny, if they want and have the
determination, or you could simply have more Mage-meets-real-life games where
your characters don't really feel as deeply involved in, say, trying to stop
genocide or influence the course of global media, because they have real and
important issues to deal with in their own back yards.
Jess Heinig
WWGS
Blake
cover the End Times, and bring the WoD to a final close. It's not like
the game lines would have to die with the world - they'd just /all/ be
historical games... ;)
In article <W8zu5.16948$yG4.1...@news1.cableinet.net>,
"DB" <dbu...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
--
`````````````````````````````````````` | ```````
Blake 1001, Virtual Adept, Disciple ---|-.
- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1317 '-|---
________________________________________ | _____
Samiel Spiral
>cover the End Times, and bring the WoD to a final close. It's not like
>the game lines would have to die with the world - they'd just /all/ be
>historical games... ;)
Exactally, one of the WW staff I believe it was, wrote that they wouldn't do it
as it would bring a game to an end with a finality and that would ruin the
games, but it's not true.
For example, people play VDA even though VtM is ou which is in essence a
finality to the DA, as those PCs would have been destroyed or put in Torpor.
~Janus
SASA
Kish
Samiel Spiral wrote in message
<20000911185505...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
>For example, people play VDA even though VtM is ou which is in
essence a
>finality to the DA, as those PCs would have been destroyed or put in
Torpor.
>
Unless those PCs became prisci of the Sabbat, or princes of the
Camarilla, or respected/feared independents, or just "ordinary"
elders.
You know...all the multitude of things that can happen to a 700+ year
old vampire other than "being destroyed or put in torpor."
--
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.replacewithcom
Michael Mullin
cool. Obviously it doesn't fit with what has happened to the vampire line in
the past couple of years (note Tremere is Goratrix blah blah), but with a few
minor modifications it could be possible in a game line. This was written by
some dude named Mithrandir, I have no idea who that is.
"Gehenna
by Mithrandir (27 Apr 93)
That's my view of Gehenna as well. It's a natural slimming of a species, but
it has more myth attached to it than that, as is always the case. Evolution,
pure and simple.
Speaking of what actually happened, this is my bid on what happened / will
happen during the Gehenna.
May 23rd, 2011. The Council of Seven of the Tremere Clan finally suceed in
perfecting a process for raising Generations without Diablerie along the Lines
of the Assamite Rituals. They each collect two hundred Points of each other's
Blood, all of the same Generation, and concentrate it to potent elixirs which
they drink.
July 15th. In almighty uproar, Tremere himself descends upon his own Council,
coming out of his home in the Carpathians. The Council have all risen to his
level of Generation, yet have not gained his magical skill. In a fury of rage
and hunger, he injures them all greviously, but they live.
Immediately, he takes the Ritual they developed to try and synthesise his own
Generation to a higher level.
October 19th. Word reaches other Clans of the Tremere's doings through the
Nosferatu. The instantaneous reaction world-wide is to attack and kill the
Tremere before the Power-Mad wizards. A Thermo Nuclear device is detonated by
supposedly unknown terrorists in Vienna. The real perpetrators are the Tremere
Antitribu and the Sabbat in general. The Seven Elders are slain in the blast,
but Tremere, along with his near-completed Ritual, escapes through his magical
arts back to the Carpathians.
October 24th. The World-wide reaction among Kindred Kine and others to the
Vienna explosion is one of horror. The Lupines see it as the last great days
of the Apocalypse being upon their heads, and a world-wide Moot is called by
the StarGazer named SwordChild. The Order of Hermes who were based in Europe
find their Powers beginning to fail at a drastic rate. There is no vis to be
found anywhere. House Tytalus approach the Tzimisces, asking that they be
converted to Vampires in exchange for all the secrets of Magic that they know.
The Tzimisces agree readily. Within a seven day period, Clan Tytalus is being
formed. Many Magi perish as their longevity potiions inexplicably fail. All
remaining gates to Arcadia have closed.
October 31st. Tremere completes his Ritual to drink the potion. He is vvery
badly burned from his near meeting with Death in Vienna. He decides to wait
and heal up, lest the potion send him into Torpor should he be medically
unsound. The Garou, in their world-wide moot in North America, begin to plan.
They plan to Call down great spirits from the Umbra to slay many humans at
once. The Impergium is to be reinstituted. There is much argument about this
from many wiser Garou, but desperate times lead to desperate measures. The
Order of Hermes lose the last of their Powers. Their magic appears to have
literally dried up totally.
November 12th. Tremere drinks of his potion, and immediately, it's Power
courses through his veins, but the energies involved null his mind. He sinks
into a trance-like state. Not a torpor, but diffrent. His Clan, in complete
disarray, are hunted to the four corners of the Earth. Many have been put to
the flame in the last few weeks. The Camarilla is very unstable indeed, as the
Anarchs take city after city in such a short time. The Elders of the Camarilla
know not what is going on. The Inconnu have retreated even more than usual,
and hold conclave in Hunedora. The Tremere have vanished , especially their
leader, and they want to know what to do. They fear the worst.
The Sabbat are growwing in number. A Sect-Wide order is given to Sire many
soldiers for the coming battle. Soon, they number as many as the Camarilla.
The Kine are growing dangerously restless, and many minor wars have broken out
already. The Vienna bombing has left the world's Diplomacy Centers are
faltering unable to do anything in the face of supposed terrorists with bombs.
Food shortages are becoming common in many places.
December 23rd. The Garou strike a US Nuclear Compound, and take it over. They
select targets and fire at Moscow and other Russian areas. In a fit of
complete fury that Mother Russia has been so brutally raped, Baba Yaga Orders
a counter-strike in all major North American cities and bases. In a word:
Theromnuclear War. 4 Billion Mortals die that night. 4000 Kindred die that
night also.
December 24th, 2011. As an Ancient Mayan Prophecy declared, a New World would
begin on December 24th, 2011. This night, fully one Night after the Nuclear
war, The Antediluvians arise from Torpor to a world of ashes and dust. The
Eternal Night begins, as clouds from the nuclear war cover the globe, blotting
out the sun for ever. In a short burst, the Antediluvians proceed to feed upon
what's left of the Kindred world.
Tremere awakens from his daze, hungry as hell for any Kindred Blood he can
find.
Through all of this, three figures emerge and summon all of the Vampires
Worldwide to one spot. Antartica. The South Pole. The radiation levels has
altered vampiric body chemistry. They do not lose Blood eacgh night any more.
There, in the South Pole, the three of the Second Generation, Weaver, Wyrm and
Wyld, as they have called themselves meet and summon the Antediluvians. Only
one does not come. Tremere. He is of the same power as the Triad. There,
soundlessly and without need for thought, the Triad slay all the Antediluvians
one-by-one without getting any resistance.
They wait.
Caine comes, slays the Second Generation without their resisting.
He travels on that night, meeting the crazed Tremere, who hungers for Power
still. Caine bears his neck to Tremere and dies finally and forever. Tremere
is now the only Vampire alive, and the only thing alive on the planet. He has
been cast out, alone, doomed by his actions to wander the face of the Earth
eternally.
He takes the name Caine, and believes he has slain his brother. He is out of
Eden.
And the cycle begins again ....
He founds a City, and calls it the first City, Enoch."
Samiel Spiral
>essence a
>>finality to the DA, as those PCs would have been destroyed or put in
>Torpor.
>>
>Unless those PCs became prisci of the Sabbat, or princes of the
>Camarilla, or respected/feared independents, or just "ordinary"
>elders.
>
>You know...all the multitude of things that can happen to a 700+ year
>old vampire other than "being destroyed or put in torpor."
Which are just are about as playable.
~Janus
SASA
RabidCabbit
wrote:
>I found this on the internet a couple of years ago and I found it pretty
>cool. Obviously it doesn't fit with what has happened to the vampire line in
>the past couple of years (note Tremere is Goratrix blah blah), but with a few
>minor modifications it could be possible in a game line. This was written by
>some dude named Mithrandir, I have no idea who that is.
>
>"Gehenna
>by Mithrandir (27 Apr 93)
>
<Omni-Snip>
>
>December 23rd. The Garou strike a US Nuclear Compound, and take it over. They
>select targets and fire at Moscow and other Russian areas. In a fit of
>complete fury that Mother Russia has been so brutally raped, Baba Yaga Orders
>a counter-strike in all major North American cities and bases. In a word:
>Theromnuclear War. 4 Billion Mortals die that night. 4000 Kindred die that
>night also.
>
Of all of it.... this was the one part that left my mouth hanging
open. And I am definately going to use it in one of my Chrons should
I ever do a "end of the world/The Apocalypse/Coming of Gehenna/etc,
etc" theme.
Werewolves detonating a nuclear weapon.....
*rolls his eyes*
-RC
malcolm_...@my-deja.com
I think, to do this sort of thing, you really have to focus it around
one game's themes. I usually run a Mage game, so the themes of the
other games are subordinate to Mage. In an (ultimately unfinished)
Armageddon scenario I ran, I did incorporate some Vampire stuff as
well; since Vampire doesn't make grand cosmological claims, this isn't
very hard. However, because it doesn't make those claims, I wouldn't
feel the need to tack them on make it big anough. The end of this world
is quite sufficient to put my players in a tizzy, thank you very much.
The thing is, players don't come to your table to haer you spout off
about a story without them participating, no matter how coll you think
that story is. You have to micromanage, by extending the implications
of the disaster in to their characters' lives.
Take this Gehenna plot that got posted. Aside from the amount of
Tremere-wanking going on in it, think; what portions of that scenatio
make any difference to your average supernatural vidoe store claerk? If
nobody knows what the Council of Seven are doing, then nobody cares. At
least TCIV gave you just enough to go; this is just a nuclear war with
aupernatural colour. *Yawn*
So, possible stories could be:
- Surviving the End Times. Hold fast and try to ditch the dirball.
Pretty self-explanatory.
- ACCEPTING the End Times. Is resistance only holding back a period of
renewel? This is antithetical to the way Gehenna's described, but then
again, maybe you're just being lied to. Perhaps the pain of a dying
world deserves to be treated with Euthanasia. "The Deathbird" by Harlan
Ellsion is perhaps the best example of this thinking in print. In fact,
read that if you are contemplating running an apocalyptic game at all.
It's that good.
- Stopping the End Times by confronting it's most dire proponent. This
is hard to pull off, since anyone capable of ending the world is
probably pretty...er...competent. In Vampire, it helps that morality
degenerates as power increases. Perhps the PCs CAN defeat the one who
knows the Word the Awakens the Sleeping, but will, themselves become as
great a threat if not greater. However, make it a different threat, at
least; just booting the devil off the throne and resting your ass does
not a paradigm shift make.
In Mage, you can work up to that epic with a ltlle more moral
confidence (you aren't cursed, after all). Perhaps there's a tension
between their desire to Ascend and the needs of the world around them.
Perhaps their paradigms are even contributing to the end, through
ignorance or an belief system that doesn't accept the possibility of
renewel. I think that any solution should come about as a result iof
lateral thinking as well as straight confrontation. Mages are there to
think out of the box, not in it. Binding a Mage game to prophecy with
an ironclad rigidity keeps the players from exploring things in terms
of their characters' beliefs.
In both cases, you have to pay special attention to the cosmic
boogeyman your setting your hapless players against. You have to find
reasons for them not to obliterate the troupe before they've even sunk
their teeth into the plot, with out it coming off as a Deus Ex Machina
solution. It needn't be personified; it can be a concept or a natural
disaster (things underutilized in many games). This can make it
impersonal enough for you to be able to manbage. Or, it can manifest
through paws, signs, omens, or events (the Antediluvian mind conrol
puppet is an example of this) making the overt threat managable.
- Stopping the End Times by breaking the chain. This is the most
familiar scenario, though I always though it was a tad overused in
Vampire games during the days when the Jyhad determined what breakfast
ceral you, ate, who ran for office, and why you chose boxers instead of
briefs (though I swear it's a comfort issue...). A few minor things are
afoot that, if not changed, will ballon into the End.
This can bring homw the odea that minor happenings in the characters'
immediate surroundings can make a difference to the world as a whole.
Vampire games are extremely well suited for this; ties of blood and the
social focus of most Kindred, as well as their small numbers
(exaggerating the Six Degrees of Seperation effect)give you the means
to make small actions globally important. Mage games can also use this
device. Furthermore, Mage is a gme where characters have limited
metaphysical resources (Nodes, Wonders), but those resources are vastly
important. A Node mightbe holding something dangerous down with it's
Resonance, which would be released if it was ever tainted or
sterilized. A minor Wonder might be disasterous in the wrong hands. As
for more worldly affairs, the welfare of Sleepers may affect a local
paradigm to the point where an evil thing becomes possible, or a waves
of local race hatred might set a match to interests that will
ultimately be bolstered by beings capable of wrecking the earth.
These beings could even just be people.
Anyway, those are my opinions. Make of them what you will.
malcolm
Ethan Skemp
In article <39bda968.51354984@news>, rabid...@hotmail.com (RabidCabbit)
wrote:
> Werewolves detonating a nuclear weapon.....
> *rolls his eyes*
Yeah, tell me about it. That's right on up there with "Helios farts and the
world is consumed in solar flame."
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Mike Shannon
spirits. What better way to kill off Gaia? When the final battle begins I
would think that would be one of the first thing the BSD do. ie set off all
those nukes they have buried around.
It might even make a good story. Have some Garou have to go disarm a BSD
protected nuke or unbound the spirit.
--
Mike
Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:i1rv5.884$Uc.3...@monger.newsread.com...
DShomshak
event already happened.
In Wraith, the Sixth Maelstrom happened. I gather that it destroyed Stygia and
the other power-groups of the Dead -- but some wraiths still survive (so to
speak). The survivors face great dangers, but can build a new society.
In Mage, the Ascension War is over. Looked at one way, the Technocracy won.
Looked at another way, nobody won. Mages still exist, though, and they still
have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
abstractions like "paradigms."
So for the other supernatural too, the end of the World As We Know It might not
be the absolute and total End. A disaster, yes. A great change, yes. But not
the End for everyone and everything.
Dean Shomshak
**********************************************************
Send e-mail responses to DSho...@juno.com.
The AOL address is a spam trap.
**********************************************************
DShomshak
>Would you want them to release a final book which told you all the secrets
>of the WoD?
If they did, they'd have to make up the secrets especially for that book!
Several developers have posted statements (and in the strongest terms) that the
company has no Master File of the Ultimate Secret Truth of the WoD, and never
will.
Jason Corley
> I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End Time"
> event already happened.
Ooh! Ooh! 3!
In Trinity, humanity fought a war with the gods. The gods ruined most of
Earth, devastated human development, and were eventually (as all gods
have who have ever lived) beaten by a "last desperate chance", an article
of which humanity seems to have an endless, never-failing supply.
Then 80 years later, the PCs come on the scene. :)
AJSolis
>But the original person wasn't talking about BSDs setting off nukes. They
>were talking about the Garou Nation doing so in order to "save the planet"
>-- which really makes things like the War of Tears look like something you'd
>see on Gandhi's resume. I know people like to think that werewolves are born
>less intelligent than the average houseplant, but come *on*.
Lol!
Naw, garou are just no were near as level headed as the average houseplant,
but someone already wrote that in, since plant totems don't like high rage
garou. :)
Michael Mullin
story that anyone has put up right now on the newsgroup its also the best story.
If you dont like it write one up and post it here and quit bitchin about what
should or should not be in an individual persons WoD:)
Ethan Skemp wrote:
> ----------
> In article <8pm5i8$h13$1...@nw003t.infi.net>, "Mike Shannon"
> <am...@trib.infi.net> wrote:
>
> > Oh I would think BSD have planted many nukes underground or bond up nuke
> > spirits. What better way to kill off Gaia? When the final battle begins I
> > would think that would be one of the first thing the BSD do. ie set off all
> > those nukes they have buried around.
> > It might even make a good story. Have some Garou have to go disarm a BSD
> > protected nuke or unbound the spirit.
>
> Sure. I mean, the sites of nuclear weapon detonation are pretty sacred to
> the Dancers and all; I'm really fond of Sam Inabinet's story "Trinity Caern"
> from Drums Around the Fire.
>
> But the original person wasn't talking about BSDs setting off nukes. They
> were talking about the Garou Nation doing so in order to "save the planet"
> -- which really makes things like the War of Tears look like something you'd
> see on Gandhi's resume. I know people like to think that werewolves are born
> less intelligent than the average houseplant, but come *on*.
>
> --
> Ethan Skemp
> WWGS
WesAdamFae
>DShomshak <dsho...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End Time"
>> event already happened.
>
>Ooh! Ooh! 3!
>
>In Trinity, humanity fought a war with the gods. The gods ruined most of
>Earth, devastated human development, and were eventually (as all gods
>have who have ever lived) beaten by a "last desperate chance", an article
>of which humanity seems to have an endless, never-failing supply.
>
>Then 80 years later, the PCs come on the scene. :)
Yep, and in the game I'm in, we get to play the "gods". ;)
Izzo
Ethan Skemp
> Oh I would think BSD have planted many nukes underground or bond up nuke
> spirits. What better way to kill off Gaia? When the final battle begins I
> would think that would be one of the first thing the BSD do. ie set off all
> those nukes they have buried around.
> It might even make a good story. Have some Garou have to go disarm a BSD
> protected nuke or unbound the spirit.
Sure. I mean, the sites of nuclear weapon detonation are pretty sacred to
S. T. Graves
> >Would you want them to release a final book which told you all the
secrets
> >of the WoD?
> If they did, they'd have to make up the secrets especially for that book!
> Several developers have posted statements (and in the strongest terms)
that the
> company has no Master File of the Ultimate Secret Truth of the WoD, and
never
> will.
Actually, more along the lines of "What did YOU plan to do with your line,"
sort of stuff. At least that would be something that I would like to see.
S. T. Graves
> I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End Time"
> event already happened.
> In Wraith, the Sixth Maelstrom happened. I gather that it destroyed
Stygia and
> the other power-groups of the Dead -- but some wraiths still survive (so
to
> speak). The survivors face great dangers, but can build a new society.
Wraiths were dead. Now they are still dead. There is just no government
controlling them.
> In Mage, the Ascension War is over. Looked at one way, the Technocracy
won.
> Looked at another way, nobody won. Mages still exist, though, and they
still
> have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
> abstractions like "paradigms."
I refuse to say "over." "Stalled" is a good term. Right now it has gotten
to the point where Sleepers are stuck between "less filling" and "tastes
great" and just decided to take a nap for a while. An interesting move game
wise, and also making the "war" to break the mold a little more interesting.
Everyone re-group, decide about what is important to YOU, and go for it.
Right now, Mage 3rd Edition (oops! Mage REVISED) is about the Half-time of
the great fight between static, dynamic and entropic pulls.
> So for the other supernatural too, the end of the World As We Know It
might not
> be the absolute and total End. A disaster, yes. A great change, yes.
But not
> the End for everyone and everything.
Werewolf and Changeling are neck and neck for "who dies next." But then
Changeling was always a bit more depressing to me. Werewolves are fighting
for Gaia. Changelings seems to be cowering in the corner instead
of...doing....well...whatever Changelings do in their free time. Play
Arcadia I guess.
-----
S. T. Graves
Raving Idiot and Changeling Fan...No...REALLY, I Am...
Jason Corley
> Werewolf and Changeling are neck and neck for "who dies next." But then
> Changeling was always a bit more depressing to me. Werewolves are fighting
> for Gaia. Changelings seems to be cowering in the corner instead
> of...doing....well...whatever Changelings do in their free time. Play
> Arcadia I guess.
Changeling is only depressing if you buy the teenage angsty World of
Darkness line that the modern world is depressing and banal. If, like me,
you think the modern world has /at least/ as many avenues for creativity
and passion, and opportunity to exercise it, Changeling looks a lot more
hopeful. Also you have to laugh at the obsession with SCA stuff and throw
it out on its ear or stomp its balls flat.
Werewolf is really a lot more depressing than Wraith.
Ethan Skemp
In article <39C00405...@netcom.ca>, Michael Mullin <co...@netcom.ca>
wrote:
> I didn't write the story, I just thought it was cool. Since its also the only
> story that anyone has put up right now on the newsgroup its also the best
story.
> If you dont like it write one up and post it here and quit bitchin about what
> should or should not be in an individual persons WoD:)
Just trying to play my part as the founding member of the anti-defamation
"Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
mdf
<alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> ----------
> In article <39C00405...@netcom.ca>, Michael Mullin
> <co...@netcom.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
> > I didn't write the story, I just thought it was cool. Since its also
> > the only
> > story that anyone has put up right now on the newsgroup its also the
> > best
> story.
> > If you dont like it write one up and post it here and quit bitchin
> > about what
> > should or should not be in an individual persons WoD:)
>
> Just trying to play my part as the founding member of the anti-defamation
> "Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
>
GADTA? Naw, doesn't inspire. How about "Werewolves Aren't Casual
Killers Or Sociopaths?"
;)
mdf
--
Address provided is a spam trap. To reply, please remove all doubt.
-----------------------
"...but our friend Plucky Purcell is an admirer of William Blake. Plucky says
one *has* to admire a man who for 175 years can get away with rhyming 'eye' and
'symmetry.'"
-----Amanda, from _Another Roadside Attraction_ by Tom Robbins
Mant
dsho...@aol.com (DShomshak) wrote:
> I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End
Time"
> event already happened.
>
> In Wraith, the Sixth Maelstrom happened. I gather that it destroyed
Stygia and
> the other power-groups of the Dead -- but some wraiths still survive
(so to
> speak). The survivors face great dangers, but can build a new
society.
Well not all power groups, but yes its largely clean slate time in the
underworld.
Its not the end though, I mean its the *Sixth* Maelstrom. The end in
Wraith is oblivion, everything gets sucked in and nothing exists
anymore.
> In Mage, the Ascension War is over. Looked at one way, the
Technocracy won.
> Looked at another way, nobody won. Mages still exist, though, and
they still
> have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
> abstractions like "paradigms."
Yeah, all that technology and science the Technocracy pushed for its
paradgim wasn't real at all. Paradigms aren't abstract at *all* becuase
to a Mages they *are* real and when they are pushing them they make
them real.
A Chorister isn't trying to push an abstract paradgim, he is trying to
get people to beleive in God and live thier lives accordingly. A
Dreamspeaker trying to get his tribe to hold onto the old ways while
surviving in the modern world, a Progenitor trying to cure cancer.
In fact I would say one thing every edition of Mage has really missed
is that Mages live their paradgims, you cannot seperate the down-to
earth from the paradgim its all part of the same thing to the Mage.
Everything they do encrouages it, even if they aren't trying . They
don't sit around saying "I'll try and get people to beleive X", they
damn well believe X themselves and act accordingly, be that helping one
person or trying to tell everyone about X.
Of course there are matters of degrees, some Mages are trying to
convince large numbers of people, others aren't setting out to convince
anyone. But they are all doing things that they beleive to be true and
real, they do down to earth things becuase they beleive thats the right
thing to do, and thats what a paradigm is, your beleifs.
> So for the other supernatural too, the end of the World As We Know It
might not
> be the absolute and total End. A disaster, yes. A great change,
yes. But not
> the End for everyone and everything.
Well even taken at its most literal some "worthy" Vampires are supposed
to survive Gehenna. A few Garou even beleive the Apocalypse is a least
a potentail rebirth rather than complete distruction.
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
DShomshak
>Just trying to play my part as the founding member of the anti-defamation
>"Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
Just to go off on a tangent --
Earlier, Ethan, you mentioned that you'd like to show the Get of Fenris as more
savvy than the other Garou thought. Does their Tribebook mention Scandinavian
humor? The Norse have a very old tradition of jokes based on snappy comebacks
and stolid good sense in the face of adversity, as well as lowbrow pranks like
replacing the Nazi official's staff car with a manure spreader. The WW2
Norwegian "Joke Underground" was one of the more remarkable episodes of modern
history, and I could see the GoF Ragabash enthusiatically joining in.
Pax
> In article <QQ4w5.114$Mx1....@monger.newsread.com>, "Ethan Skemp"
> <alpha...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>>Just trying to play my part as the founding member of the anti-defamation
>>"Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
> Just to go off on a tangent --
> Earlier, Ethan, you mentioned that you'd like to show the Get of Fenris as more
> savvy than the other Garou thought. Does their Tribebook mention Scandinavian
> humor? The Norse have a very old tradition of jokes based on snappy comebacks
> and stolid good sense in the face of adversity, as well as lowbrow pranks like
> replacing the Nazi official's staff car with a manure spreader. The WW2
> Norwegian "Joke Underground" was one of the more remarkable episodes of modern
> history, and I could see the GoF Ragabash enthusiatically joining in.
I'm not Ethan, but from what I remember of the GoF tribebook, no, nothing
like what your talking about. I'm fairly sure I would remember, as that
was one of the things *I* was looking for in the tribebook.
I was somewhat disappointed in the GoF tribebook in general, actually.
It's not awful, but it didn't really have anything that grabbed me, and
didn't seem to try to present much of another face to the Get besides
the standards "Rargh. Cleave wyrmy-thingy. Rargh." stereotype.
I'd really like to see more on the Norse sense of humor, and I also
really wanted to see some more in-depth discussion of how the Get
interpret Norse mythology and how it fits in with Gaian mythology.
I just don't see Mr. Norse Homid (the Norse being one of the Western cultures
that held out longest against going totally Christian) tossing aside their
beliefs one day when they met the furry side of the family and they said "Woo,
Gaia baby, it's all Gaia". Some of it's obvious, like Jormungandr being
related to the Wyrm somehow, but little things like Fenris being
Jormungandr's brother (half-brother?) are a bit less easy to reconcile.
I realize this is less of an issue in the present, but Garou society
seems quite good at preserving ancient traditions, and it would seem
that human traditions would be likely to come along for the ride, so
I think it is still important to modern day Garou.
The Get have the potential to be one of my favorite Tribes, and to
allow me to access the themes in Werewolf in a way that resonates
strongly for me. I want to play the Ahroun inspired by Thor, the
Ragabash by Loki, the Theurge by Odin.
Oh yeah, and runes baby, gimme runes.
-Pax
Who thinks runes as scar/tattoo fetishes are a pretty nifty
idea.
DShomshak
>> Mages still exist, though, and they still
>> have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
>> abstractions like "paradigms."
>
>Yeah, all that technology and science the Technocracy pushed for its
>paradgim wasn't real at all. Paradigms aren't abstract at *all* becuase
>to a Mages they *are* real and when they are pushing them they make
>them real.
>
>A Chorister isn't trying to push an abstract paradgim, he is trying to
>get people to beleive in God and live thier lives accordingly. A
>Dreamspeaker trying to get his tribe to hold onto the old ways while
>surviving in the modern world, a Progenitor trying to cure cancer.
>
>In fact I would say one thing every edition of Mage has really missed
>is that Mages live their paradgims, you cannot seperate the down-to
>earth from the paradgim its all part of the same thing to the Mage.
>Everything they do encrouages it, even if they aren't trying . They
>don't sit around saying "I'll try and get people to beleive X", they
>damn well believe X themselves and act accordingly, be that helping one
>person or trying to tell everyone about X.
Eloquently put, and I agree that that's what Mage *should* be. The impression
I got from earlier editions and supplements, however, was that the Ascension
War was fought over little more than power. We may have been *told* that the
Traditions espoused this, that and the other particular goals, but we didn't
*see* that Chorister, that Dreamspeaker or (for that matter) that Progenitor --
at least, not nearly as much as we should.
So I still hold that *as far as the books showed us,* the Ascension War was
fought for abstract, unreal goals. Mages may have talked about paradigms but
they didn't do damn-all to show the truth of their beliefs through their lives
and actions. With luck, Jess will bring us supplements that show mages who
promote their paradigms by living them, not by fighting people who disagree
with them.
winge...@my-deja.com
<co...@netcom.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > I didn't write the story, I just thought it was cool. Since its
also the only
> > story that anyone has put up right now on the newsgroup its also the
best
> story.
> > If you dont like it write one up and post it here and quit bitchin
about what
> > should or should not be in an individual persons WoD:)
>
anti-defamation
> "Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
Uh... speaking as somebody who's favorite Whitewolf game *is* WereWolf:
The Apocalypse, the Garou are pretty much dumber than toast. The only
Tribe that takes anything close to a pragmatic approach to the world is
the Shadow Lords... and they're too stupid to take a step back and try
to see that everybody can see how backstabbingly assholed they are.
The Black Furies are too focused on women's issues to realize that there
is an entire world of wyrm out there that they're ignoring. The Get are
too eager to die. The Shadow Lords fancy themselves bigs in the world
of politics and backstabbing, but they don't know enough to stop being
obvious about it. You'ld think that the Silver Fangs would extend their
accepted breeding stock into modern-day leaders, but nope, they're just
letting themselves drop off into inbred oblivion. The Children of Gaia
have some respect for humans, but need to learn to take some collective
initiative in the entire matter. The Red Talons are really closer to
the Weaver, even though they think they're protecting the Wyld by
refusing to change. The GlassWalkers are still following the Weaver
even though it's obvious to even the least supernatural of eyes that
where the Weaver goes, the Wyrm soon follows with no Weaver resistance
whatsoever.
Quite frankly, as a race, they have some certain idiocies about them and
they have the damnedest time noticing the obvious.
Alright, here are some things that I would like to see as the "end
times" come near, that would, in my eyes, make the garou seem a more
intelligent race.
1. A systematic deconstruction of the Veil. I don't mean Delerium,
that would take thousands of Children of Gaia repeatedly doing a right,
or an army of kinfolk psychotherapists. What I mean is a slow but
steady removal of the illusion that wereowlves don't exist. Start only
with those that are allied to your cause (and be smart, scent 'em for
the Wyrm before you tell them anything... in fact, do so at least 3
times, just to make sure that you haven't botched the first one). Tell
them of the truth of the matter, that the garou exist, and that Gaia
needs their help.
Get some spirits in on the matter. A human being seeing a person
turn into a wolf might not believe in Gaia, but a quick trip to the
Umbra to see the true form of what is going on with his world is going
to be a convert rather quickly.
Also, you Theurges, you're supposed to be clerics and Shahmans, a
connection between the mortal world and the spiritual world. Start
connecting the two, dammit. Get yourself a Church of Gaia and start
yourself a preaching about how Gaia needs all of our help. If you get
it blown into a full out cult, you can get people to live in the Tribal
settings, as Gaia intended.
The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou. When
people know that it's either start helping Gaia or die at the hands of
the Wyrm, they'll get to acting. And, making this more immediate and
sure than the Christians by actually giving a show of the powers of Gaia
and the destruction the Wyrm is causing will start a slap in the apathy
of the human race.
2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The single
biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let them
have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be rulers in
Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
options for authority.
3. A systematic seeking out of the Changing Breeds that still live, and
sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
(preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the Gurahl
or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am *Insert
Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the crimes
our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take without
challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia. It
would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be considered
worthy breeding stock to the garou.
5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
destruction because their lands aren't available any more. There is an
entire freaking Umbra out there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are human
beings, not garou, not spiritual represenations of human beings, but
actual human beings in the Child of Gaia home Realm. So, use that area
while you can, bring some wolf packs out there to a few good realms,
such as Pangea, the Gateway to Arcadia, The Legendary Realms, The Summer
Country is always good, and Wolfhome. Ofcourse, the Tribal Homelands
are also good places for Wolfkin to run wyld.
There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms would
produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern Building?
It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work with
some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the local
gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
spiritual activity.
Now, I fully realize that not all of these are going to work out
completely, but it's better than what the Garou are doing right now,
which consists of "Let's kill each other then kill the wyrm then kill
each other again".
I don't mean to belittle a truly good game. And, I've played games that
have had rather intelligent individual garou. But, the Garou, as a
whole, have the tendancy to be dumber than toast. I wouldn't be
suprised if they did set off a bomb or two.
>
> --
> Ethan Skemp
> WWGS
>
--
"There are two types of power. There is authority, which can only be
given, and control, which can only be taken."
Wingedbeast, C. Adam Scott, Atheist #1438
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/wingedbeast/index.html
Bruce Baugh
>I'm not Ethan, but from what I remember of the GoF tribebook, no, nothing
>like what your talking about. I'm fairly sure I would remember, as that
I didn't do anything with Get humor, but in World of Rage you'll find
that one of the two groups most strongly agitating to help the
Stargazers in their hour of crisis is Fenris. (The other is Children of
Gaia.) The Fenris may not like or respect most Stargazers, but Gaia made
the Garou Nation for a reason, and no piece of it is to be discarded
just because it's inconvenient. Thus do the Fenris involved shame other
tribes and show their superiority. Again.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> bruce...@spiretech.com
Information wants to be free. Entertainment wants to be valuable.
Sean Riley
> The Black Furies are too focused on women's issues to realize that there
> is an entire world of wyrm out there that they're ignoring.
Which is why they've officially put aside their issues with the Get of
Fenris (based on gender issues,) in Europe to deal with a common
enemy?
> The Get are too eager to die.
Which is why the most legendary Get of all, Golgol Fangs-First,
is described as an 'even tempered, rational warrior'?
> The Shadow Lords fancy themselves bigs in the world
> of politics and backstabbing, but they don't know enough to stop being
> obvious about it.
Which is why Margrave Konietzko has quietly and cleverly brought
the Glasswalkers in Europe helpless to his table, and is /this/ close to
pulling off the coup against King Albrecht?
> You'ld think that the Silver Fangs would extend their
> accepted breeding stock into modern-day leaders, but nope, they're just
> letting themselves drop off into inbred oblivion.
Which is why the current King is a renewalist, dedicated to bringing
new blood into the Fangs and restoring them to greatness?
> The Children of Gaia
> have some respect for humans, but need to learn to take some collective
> initiative in the entire matter.
Correct. Disorganized, however, is different to dumber than toast.
> The Red Talons are really closer to
> the Weaver, even though they think they're protecting the Wyld by
> refusing to change.
Interesting argument, but the Wyld isn't necessarily a progressive
agent of change. In fact, the whole idea of a linear, moving- toward -
a - certain - point change is very much a weaver notion. The Red
Talons may not be dynamic, true, but they're very much of the
Wyld.
> The GlassWalkers are still following the Weaver
> even though it's obvious to even the least supernatural of eyes that
> where the Weaver goes, the Wyrm soon follows with no Weaver resistance
> whatsoever.
Not true. At least in theory, the Glass Walkers still follow Gaia, not the
Weaver.
Now, the European Cyber Dogs. That's another story...
> Quite frankly, as a race, they have some certain idiocies about them and
> they have the damnedest time noticing the obvious.
As a nation, I'm almost inclined to agree. The Garou Nation hasn't done
anything smart that I can recall of, ever. But the Garou Nation hasn't
done anything that I can think of since the second War of Rage.
Individual Garou, however, are smart, wily, creative and adaptable, if
many are a bit fanatical.
> Alright, here are some things that I would like to see as the "end
> times" come near, that would, in my eyes, make the garou seem a more
> intelligent race.
>
> 1. A systematic deconstruction of the Veil. I don't mean Delerium,
> that would take thousands of Children of Gaia repeatedly doing a right,
> or an army of kinfolk psychotherapists. What I mean is a slow but
> steady removal of the illusion that wereowlves don't exist. Start only
> with those that are allied to your cause (and be smart, scent 'em for
> the Wyrm before you tell them anything... in fact, do so at least 3
> times, just to make sure that you haven't botched the first one). Tell
> them of the truth of the matter, that the garou exist, and that Gaia
> needs their help.
Nice theory, but I'm certain some Galliard would quickly point out
that the Children of Gaia were awfully convinced Samuel Haight was
on the ball, too. Sense Wyrm isn't an exact science, either, it's more
of a general sense of 'something's wrong'. (If anyone can correct me,
feel free to do so.)
> The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
> aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou.
Perhaps, but I'd put all my money that the Wyrm would adapt to a
Veil-less society a lot better than the Gaian Garou would, for one
simple reason: Pentex. Let's face it, on one hand you have a bunch
of creatures made famous in horror films for butchering humanity,
with the general social skills and clear, empathic mindset of an
abortion clinic bomber.
On the other hand, you have one of America's Most Trusted
Companies, serving the American public since 1921! (Or
whenever.) Pentex have the media, Pentex have the sway. If
this war got public, then it would be over in short order.
> 2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The single
> biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let them
> have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be rulers in
> Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
> options for authority.
The problem with this isn't the homid half of the Garou, (And you'd find
maybe a lot of support for this idea from them. Maybe.) since they're
coming from human societies with ideas of leadership and representation.
But the lupus would rail against it. They'd point out, and quite rightly,
that
when you start complicating the system with all these factors, you open
yourself up to pointless politics and red tape. And the wolf kinfolk
themselves wouldn't agree, I think. Goes against the whole grain of
dominance and submission, since the kinfolk can't hope to challenge
the Garou and win.
Now, there is a great deal of good that this notion has, mind you.
The lupus aren't all right. They're just right enough that the idea isn't
feasible.
> 3. A systematic seeking out of the Changing Breeds that still live, and
> sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
> (preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the Gurahl
> or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am *Insert
> Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the crimes
> our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
> crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take without
> challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia. It
> would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
Hey, no problem with that one. It's a great idea. I'm all for the
Australian government apologizing to the Aboriginal people
for the physical and cultural genocide the European people's
wrecked upon them too, but it ain't happened yet, either.
And we're not even asking them to kill themselves for it.
Sure, I think that's a smart idea, but we're not smart enough
to do it either. Pride, the potential repercussions (What
happens when the Mokole say "Right. So one measly
one of yours killing himself makes up for the hundreds
of us you killed? Uh-huh. We demand equal payment."?)
and other issues get in the way.
> 4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
> start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be considered
> worthy breeding stock to the garou.
Answer: Those who make Garou, right now. Screw worthiness, the
Garou need cubs. And that means real kinfolk end up being breeding
partners..
> 5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
> destruction because their lands aren't available any more...
> There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
> could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
> having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms would
> produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
Without being familiar with the Children of Gaia home realm
situation, (Anyone want to clear this up for me?) I will argue
the issues of feasibility and practicality. Can you find all those
wolves you'd need to build a healthy second wolf society,
and then move them all through the Umbra? And could
you make them trust you, since you're asking them to
forsake their traditional grounds?
Secondly, if you move the wolves to other realms, you've
given the Black Spiral Dancers free reign to begin outright
slaughter. It's effectively putting all your eggs in one
basket.
Still, given a few allowances, I'll agree, that one's a
clever idea.
> 6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern Building?
> It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work with
> some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the local
> gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
> spiritual activity.
Yeah, I know the Rite of Caern Building. That's the one which draws
Wyrm critters from everywhere in the area, running like madmen to
get there. Let's assume that each time you run it, you maybe lose one
or two Garou to fighting off the Wyrm. How many times are we
meant to run this thing through again?
In addition, each Caern needs to be managed properly, and that
means you need Garou there. The more Caerns, the more Garou
needed to guard it. In fact, I'D personally be inclined to suggest
the Garou should start abandoning the weaker Caerns, and
move troops out to the strongest ones for better defence. Yes,
there are problems with this too, (The eggs in basket bit
again, but this time the eggs have claws.) but at least it gives
the Garou a stable basis to work from.
> Now, I fully realize that not all of these are going to work out
> completely, but it's better than what the Garou are doing right now,
> which consists of "Let's kill each other then kill the wyrm then kill
> each other again".
Again, I refer to a World of Rage. King Albrecht has successfully
purged the 7th Generation, a tremendous achievement. As the
British and Irish government come to something of a resolution
in Northern Ireland, so are the Fiana slowly resolving their
differences. Many Get and Furies in Europe have come to a
truce, agreeing to focus their energies on the greater enemy.
After the Gulf war, "dozens of foreign Garou" came to
fix up the hideous ecological disasters. And whilst it's looking
now like a bad idea, Cernonous's attempt to clone the
Bunyip certainly didn't fit the general plot of killing each other
and killing the Wyrm.
> I don't mean to belittle a truly good game. And, I've played games that
> have had rather intelligent individual garou. But, the Garou, as a
> whole, have the tendancy to be dumber than toast. I wouldn't be
> suprised if they did set off a bomb or two.
Right, but here's the thing. We, as humans, set off a bomb or two,
as well. A great deal more besides. And no, we're not fighting a
war to save the planet, but surely we could wake up and realize
we can't keep going the way we have been? Apparently not,
because we just keep going to way we always have.
Every crime the Garou commit is something humans have
done before. No question about that. They may not be perfect
examples of mental efficiency, but they're honestly no
worse than us.
As a whole, (That is, the Garou Nation,) yes, the Garou
are dumb. Just as dumb as us. And, as individuals and
even as small or medium sized groups, like Septs,
they can be smart, clever bodies. Just like us. The only
real difference I'd point out is that the Garou /do/ tend
to be a bit more angry and impulsive than us, courtesy
of Rage. None of this equals dumber than toast.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits are objects
of scorn to smart Americans who blow horns to break up
traffic jams." - Mary Ellen Kelly
Sean Riley
jaks...@ihug.com.au
He's not just for breakfast anymore
winge...@my-deja.com
Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The Black Furies are too focused on women's issues to realize that
there
> > is an entire world of wyrm out there that they're ignoring.
>
> Which is why they've officially put aside their issues with the Get of
> Fenris (based on gender issues,) in Europe to deal with a common
> enemy?
I'm not familiar with this particular example. It could very well prove
me wrong, but I'm not familiar with it.
>
> > The Get are too eager to die.
>
> Which is why the most legendary Get of all, Golgol Fangs-First,
> is described as an 'even tempered, rational warrior'?
Jesus Christ is often described as kind and benevolant, taking a look at
most of your hard core Christians...
>
> > The Shadow Lords fancy themselves bigs in the world
> > of politics and backstabbing, but they don't know enough to stop
being
> > obvious about it.
>
> Which is why Margrave Konietzko has quietly and cleverly brought
> the Glasswalkers in Europe helpless to his table, and is /this/ close
to pulling off the coup against King Albrecht?
You're siting the extreme individuals here. If they were all so
intelligent, they wouldn't have the reputation for being the
backstabbing bastards that they are.
>
> > You'ld think that the Silver Fangs would extend their
> > accepted breeding stock into modern-day leaders, but nope, they're
just
> > letting themselves drop off into inbred oblivion.
>
> Which is why the current King is a renewalist, dedicated to bringing
> new blood into the Fangs and restoring them to greatness?
Ok, site? I'm not aware of this.
And, you'll agree, that the reason that they are so problematic is that
the problem of inbreeding has been going on for many generations, enough
for them to have noticed a few generations ago.
>
> > The Children of Gaia
> > have some respect for humans, but need to learn to take some
collective
> > initiative in the entire matter.
>
> Correct. Disorganized, however, is different to dumber than toast.
Point taken and the point is correct. However, these are just examples
of stupidities that lead to the bigger issues.
Ofcourse, I firmly believe that ending the Impregium was a mistake.
They started it, which was a mistake, but after 1,000 generations or so,
there was more dissaster in ending it than in continuing it... they
waited so long that the correction was impossible. And, now they've
waited too long, again, to restart the damn thing. They might've had a
chance in the Middle Ages, when the Black Plague gives you an example of
what can happen when humans are too heavily populated.
Those things combine into huge mistakes, that a few level heads looking
at the issue could say "this goes beyond emotion here, the situation
can't be solved so simply as killing them all or simply stopping".
Which, by the way, is why I made sure to deal with a systematic
deconstruction of the Veil.
>
> > The Red Talons are really closer to
> > the Weaver, even though they think they're protecting the Wyld by
> > refusing to change.
>
> Interesting argument, but the Wyld isn't necessarily a progressive
> agent of change. In fact, the whole idea of a linear, moving- toward -
> a - certain - point change is very much a weaver notion. The Red
> Talons may not be dynamic, true, but they're very much of the
> Wyld.
Here, I would argue that they're not so much of the Wyld as they are of
the wilds. The Wyld is constant creation, change, and chaos. The
Weaver is that which fears change most of all. And, the Red Talons fear
change, which is the major reason they're dieing out.
>
> > The GlassWalkers are still following the Weaver
> > even though it's obvious to even the least supernatural of eyes that
> > where the Weaver goes, the Wyrm soon follows with no Weaver
resistance
> > whatsoever.
>
> Not true. At least in theory, the Glass Walkers still follow Gaia, not
the
> Weaver.
>
> Now, the European Cyber Dogs. That's another story...
Most of them are heavily Weaver oriented. A few of them are into urban
primitives and such, but, for the most part, they think that, by serving
the Weaver, they can aid Gaia. I think the quote in the 2nd Ed main
book is something about Gaia surviving better armored in steel with a
wall of smog around her.
>
> > Quite frankly, as a race, they have some certain idiocies about them
and
> > they have the damnedest time noticing the obvious.
>
> As a nation, I'm almost inclined to agree. The Garou Nation hasn't
done
> anything smart that I can recall of, ever. But the Garou Nation hasn't
> done anything that I can think of since the second War of Rage.
And, of course, a lot of this is to be expected with a race of warriors
based on instinct. They get pissed off easily and act without
thinking... it's when they do so, as a race, that they get dumber than
toast, and it is when they get into that hive mentality that they will
do the dumb-assest shit... rather like human beings who, when they
gather into groups, tend to be dumber than toast as well.
>
> Individual Garou, however, are smart, wily, creative and adaptable, if
> many are a bit fanatical.
I agree. When on an individual level, they can be quite intelligent and
have all the advantages an quick and able mind can have. But, when they
hit upon the pack mentality, acting as a group, they get into that
mistake that makes everybody dumber than toast, which is acting without
thinking.
The real problem is that the Garou have this mentality 10fold. Human
societies have come around with the virtue of deviating from an immoral
norm, but still have a conformity and a pack instinct. As do the
wolves, hense, the problems come in spades.
>
> > Alright, here are some things that I would like to see as the "end
> > times" come near, that would, in my eyes, make the garou seem a more
> > intelligent race.
> >
> > 1. A systematic deconstruction of the Veil. I don't mean Delerium,
> > that would take thousands of Children of Gaia repeatedly doing a
right,
> > or an army of kinfolk psychotherapists. What I mean is a slow but
> > steady removal of the illusion that wereowlves don't exist. Start
only
> > with those that are allied to your cause (and be smart, scent 'em
for
> > the Wyrm before you tell them anything... in fact, do so at least 3
> > times, just to make sure that you haven't botched the first one).
Tell
> > them of the truth of the matter, that the garou exist, and that Gaia
> > needs their help.
>
> Nice theory, but I'm certain some Galliard would quickly point out
> that the Children of Gaia were awfully convinced Samuel Haight was
> on the ball, too. Sense Wyrm isn't an exact science, either, it's more
> of a general sense of 'something's wrong'. (If anyone can correct me,
> feel free to do so.)
That's why you have at least 3 garou with the gift do it at least 3
times each. If one of them gets that "something tainted on this one
comes" just once, this dude isn't the one you tell... Even if it was
just the McDonalds Burger that they were eating at the time.
>
> > The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
> > aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou.
>
> Perhaps, but I'd put all my money that the Wyrm would adapt to a
> Veil-less society a lot better than the Gaian Garou would, for one
> simple reason: Pentex. Let's face it, on one hand you have a bunch
> of creatures made famous in horror films for butchering humanity,
> with the general social skills and clear, empathic mindset of an
> abortion clinic bomber.
Such problems can be aleviated by taking the slow approach. The wisest
of humanity, that is with the enviromentalist cause, first. Then the
second wisest. You slowly get the ball rolling.
>
> On the other hand, you have one of America's Most Trusted
> Companies, serving the American public since 1921! (Or
> whenever.) Pentex have the media, Pentex have the sway. If
> this war got public, then it would be over in short order.
The GlassWalkers can expose their illegal and immoral practices simply
by handing a Corax a cam-corder.
>
> > 2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The
single
> > biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let
them
> > have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be
rulers in
> > Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
> > options for authority.
>
> The problem with this isn't the homid half of the Garou, (And you'd
find
> maybe a lot of support for this idea from them. Maybe.) since they're
> coming from human societies with ideas of leadership and
representation.
> But the lupus would rail against it. They'd point out, and quite
rightly,
> that
> when you start complicating the system with all these factors, you
open
> yourself up to pointless politics and red tape. And the wolf kinfolk
> themselves wouldn't agree, I think. Goes against the whole grain of
> dominance and submission, since the kinfolk can't hope to challenge
> the Garou and win.
Then make the challenges those other than of battle. Riddle contests,
contests of intelligence, tactics, etc.
And, in the Kinfolk Book, they told tale of a Lupus Kinfolk that lead a
pack for 10 years, and did so leading, not telling people where to fight
then sitting back and moving the pieces. That is leadership the garou
could use.
>
> Now, there is a great deal of good that this notion has, mind you.
> The lupus aren't all right. They're just right enough that the idea
isn't
> feasible.
The best ideas often aren't.
>
> > 3. A systematic seeking out of the Changing Breeds that still live,
and
> > sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
> > (preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the
Gurahl
> > or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am
*Insert
> > Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the
crimes
> > our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
> > crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take
without
> > challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia.
It
> > would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
>
> Hey, no problem with that one. It's a great idea. I'm all for the
> Australian government apologizing to the Aboriginal people
> for the physical and cultural genocide the European people's
> wrecked upon them too, but it ain't happened yet, either.
> And we're not even asking them to kill themselves for it.
They're not going to do it. If the Aboriginal people suddenly became a
force that could, possibly, turn the tides of a centuries long war in
the Australian's favor, you bet you'ld see some soldiers coming with
writs of "here's your land back if you help us not die".
>
> Sure, I think that's a smart idea, but we're not smart enough
> to do it either. Pride, the potential repercussions (What
> happens when the Mokole say "Right. So one measly
> one of yours killing himself makes up for the hundreds
> of us you killed? Uh-huh. We demand equal payment."?)
> and other issues get in the way.
It'll take some good speakers, too, like that one in the Mokole` book
that reminded them that the Mokole` and the garou interbred and worked
together once. But, the "I offer my life in appology" would be a
beginning that the garou sorely need in order to turn the tides of the
Appocolypse.
>
> > 4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
> > start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be
considered
> > worthy breeding stock to the garou.
>
> Answer: Those who make Garou, right now. Screw worthiness, the
> Garou need cubs. And that means real kinfolk end up being breeding
> partners..
Who said a garou only needs one partner? Instinct on both human and
wolf side lends to multiple partners throughout the lifespan.
Then again, I'm somebody who believes that the garou should make a point
of crossbreed mating.
>
> > 5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
> > destruction because their lands aren't available any more...
>
> > There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
>
> > could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
> > having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms
would
> > produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
>
> Without being familiar with the Children of Gaia home realm
> situation, (Anyone want to clear this up for me?) I will argue
> the issues of feasibility and practicality. Can you find all those
> wolves you'd need to build a healthy second wolf society,
> and then move them all through the Umbra?
Easily enough, considering that young wolves often leave their packs,
sometimes to start new ones.
Also, mind you, that the Lupus Garou could also take part in starting
said packs. A female Lupus being the Female Alpha, be a good way to
start the breeding stock as well.
And could
> you make them trust you, since you're asking them to
> forsake their traditional grounds?
These are wolves, they don't think in issues of "traditional grounds".
They think in issues of territory, which not all of them have.
>
> Secondly, if you move the wolves to other realms, you've
> given the Black Spiral Dancers free reign to begin outright
> slaughter. It's effectively putting all your eggs in one
> basket.
This is assuming that you're bringing all the wolves into the umbra.
I'm just talking about bringing, or starting, a few new packs in select
places in the umbra. A few generations later, you'll have strong wolves
from which gaoru will come.
>
> Still, given a few allowances, I'll agree, that one's a
> clever idea.
Only a few allowances, that can be overcome.
>
> > 6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern
Building?
> > It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work
with
> > some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the
local
> > gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
> > spiritual activity.
>
> Yeah, I know the Rite of Caern Building. That's the one which draws
> Wyrm critters from everywhere in the area, running like madmen to
> get there. Let's assume that each time you run it, you maybe lose one
> or two Garou to fighting off the Wyrm. How many times are we
> meant to run this thing through again?
*much* smaller version, remember. The BSDs and other wyrmies wouldn't
sense a new Caern a formin'.
>
> In addition, each Caern needs to be managed properly
I'm *not* talking about creating new caerns, just breaking the gauntlet
down a notch or two. there is one huge, mother-trucking, ass the size
of Jupitor, difference.
Well, out of ignorance as to the vast ecological reprocusions and also
thinking that those in the blast would die instantly, without suffering.
The garou could just have sat down and thought for a minute or two to
realize the huge, mother-trucking, blocking out the sun and the moon,
problems that would arize from A. Begining the Impregium, B. Ending it
after waiting too long, C. The War of Rage. D. The Second War of
Rage, E. the Bunyip dissaster.
That's just as a race. On individual levels, the garou have scorned the
spirits thinking that they'll be no problem, beaten their kinfolk till
they ran to the Wyrm for protection, etc etc etc.
But, that's what you expect when you create a race of warriors that gets
easily pissed off and thinks in packs.
A great deal more besides. And no, we're not fighting a
> war to save the planet, but surely we could wake up and realize
> we can't keep going the way we have been? Apparently not,
> because we just keep going to way we always have.
In all fairness, we humans have a lot of ignorance working on us. The
Garou, in most of the cases I have mentioned, faced the obvious to any
observer. Start systematically killing an entire species, and you're
not going to make friends. Suddenly stop after thousands of years, and
you're still not going to have made any friends, but now their going to
be multiplying even faster and overrunning you.
Many humans are ignorant (admittedly some are willingly so) to the
ramifications of what they do. But, even a piece of toast would know
better than to start killing everybody because a small portion of them
wouldn't tell you how to raise the dead.
I guess we could do better to see some of the bright spots of the Garou
history, a Garou Renesaunce.
>
> Every crime the Garou commit is something humans have
> done before. No question about that. They may not be perfect
> examples of mental efficiency, but they're honestly no
> worse than us.
I'll go with ya there, humans, as a species, are also dumber than toast.
>
> As a whole, (That is, the Garou Nation,) yes, the Garou
> are dumb. Just as dumb as us. And, as individuals and
> even as small or medium sized groups, like Septs,
> they can be smart, clever bodies. Just like us. The only
> real difference I'd point out is that the Garou /do/ tend
> to be a bit more angry and impulsive than us, courtesy
> of Rage. None of this equals dumber than toast.
It does when you consider that the only ones that ever take a moment to
sit and think about what the fuck their doing are the ones that A.
nobody listens to, and B. hardly fight at all.
>
> Cheers,
> Sean.
>
> --
>
> "Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits are objects
> of scorn to smart Americans who blow horns to break up
> traffic jams." - Mary Ellen Kelly
>
> Sean Riley
> jaks...@ihug.com.au
> He's not just for breakfast anymore
>
>
--
RabidCabbit
>In article <39C3029C...@ihug.com.au>,
> Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
>> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
<Snip>
On a lighter note...
>
>That's why you have at least 3 garou with the gift do it at least 3
>times each. If one of them gets that "something tainted on this one
>comes" just once, this dude isn't the one you tell... Even if it was
>just the McDonalds Burger that they were eating at the time.
>
Most fast food detects as Wyrm-tainted. Do you have any idea where
that stuff has been?
<Snip>
winge...@my-deja.com
rabid...@hotmail.com (RabidCabbit) wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:12:37 GMT, winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> >> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
>
> On a lighter note...
>
> >
> >times each. If one of them gets that "something tainted on this one
> >comes" just once, this dude isn't the one you tell... Even if it was
> >just the McDonalds Burger that they were eating at the time.
> >
>
> that stuff has been?
I know... I know.
>
> <Snip>
Brendan T. Moran
DShomshak wrote:
> I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End Time"
> event already happened.
>
> In Wraith, the Sixth Maelstrom happened. I gather that it destroyed Stygia and
> the other power-groups of the Dead -- but some wraiths still survive (so to
> speak). The survivors face great dangers, but can build a new society.
>
> In Mage, the Ascension War is over. Looked at one way, the Technocracy won.
> Looked at another way, nobody won. Mages still exist, though, and they still
> have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
> abstractions like "paradigms."
>
> So for the other supernatural too, the end of the World As We Know It might not
> be the absolute and total End. A disaster, yes. A great change, yes. But not
> the End for everyone and everything.
Then it's not the Big End. It's a Big Change.
brendan
Brendan T. Moran
Mant wrote:
> In article <20000913013939...@nso-fd.aol.com>,
> dsho...@aol.com (DShomshak) wrote:
> > I think it's worth noting that in two of the gamelines, the big "End
> Time"
> > event already happened.
> >
> > In Wraith, the Sixth Maelstrom happened. I gather that it destroyed
> Stygia and
> > the other power-groups of the Dead -- but some wraiths still survive
> (so to
> > speak). The survivors face great dangers, but can build a new
> society.
>
> Well not all power groups, but yes its largely clean slate time in the
> underworld.
>
> Its not the end though, I mean its the *Sixth* Maelstrom. The end in
> Wraith is oblivion, everything gets sucked in and nothing exists
> anymore.
>
> > In Mage, the Ascension War is over. Looked at one way, the
> Technocracy won.
> > Looked at another way, nobody won. Mages still exist, though, and
> they still
> > have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
> > abstractions like "paradigms."
>
> Yeah, all that technology and science the Technocracy pushed for its
> paradgim wasn't real at all. Paradigms aren't abstract at *all* becuase
> to a Mages they *are* real and when they are pushing them they make
> them real.
>
> A Chorister isn't trying to push an abstract paradgim, he is trying to
> get people to beleive in God and live thier lives accordingly. A
> Dreamspeaker trying to get his tribe to hold onto the old ways while
> surviving in the modern world, a Progenitor trying to cure cancer.
>
> In fact I would say one thing every edition of Mage has really missed
> is that Mages live their paradgims, you cannot seperate the down-to
> earth from the paradgim its all part of the same thing to the Mage.
> Everything they do encrouages it, even if they aren't trying . They
> don't sit around saying "I'll try and get people to beleive X", they
> damn well believe X themselves and act accordingly, be that helping one
> person or trying to tell everyone about X.
>
> Of course there are matters of degrees, some Mages are trying to
> convince large numbers of people, others aren't setting out to convince
> anyone. But they are all doing things that they beleive to be true and
> real, they do down to earth things becuase they beleive thats the right
> thing to do, and thats what a paradigm is, your beleifs.
>
> > So for the other supernatural too, the end of the World As We Know It
> might not
> > be the absolute and total End. A disaster, yes. A great change,
> yes. But not
> > the End for everyone and everything.
>
> Well even taken at its most literal some "worthy" Vampires are supposed
> to survive Gehenna. A few Garou even beleive the Apocalypse is a least
> a potentail rebirth rather than complete distruction.
>
> Mant
I always likened the Apocalypse especially, and to a certain extent the
End Times in general, to the Norse Ragnarok. Pretty much everybody dies.
For most, it's a question of how and when you die and on whose side you
fight when it all comes down to it. However, a few survive, and some
(Balder) return and the world in general seems to be a nicer place forever
after, possibly without death at all.
I especially like this model for the Garou: You are going to die. That's
not even an issue. The only choice is whether you die hiding like a coward
or fighting for the wrong side, and allow the Wyrm to destroy everything,
or die fighting to the last, and with your sacrifice destroy the Wyrm and
make room for a better, more perfect world (without death) to follow.
I think I prefer the Hindu approach for Mages. The universe will be
destoyed *again*, and then reborn as a perfect world *again* which will
then degenerate slowly over four great ages until it's destroyed *again*,
and reborn *again*. Really the only important thing about the whole
process is how hard it is for your soul to get out of the whole thing and
achieve release or unity with the divine or whatever in the most
degenerate ages.
brendan
Brendan T. Moran
Pax wrote:
> DShomshak <dsho...@aol.com> wrote:
> > In article <QQ4w5.114$Mx1....@monger.newsread.com>, "Ethan Skemp"
> > <alpha...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>
> I'd really like to see more on the Norse sense of humor, and I also
> really wanted to see some more in-depth discussion of how the Get
> interpret Norse mythology and how it fits in with Gaian mythology.
>
> I just don't see Mr. Norse Homid (the Norse being one of the Western cultures
> that held out longest against going totally Christian) tossing aside their
> beliefs one day when they met the furry side of the family and they said "Woo,
> Gaia baby, it's all Gaia". Some of it's obvious, like Jormungandr being
> related to the Wyrm somehow, but little things like Fenris being
> Jormungandr's brother (half-brother?) are a bit less easy to reconcile.
>
This is the thing that bugs me the most about the Get and about WtA as a whole.
Fenris is pretty clearly aligned with the "bad guys," including Jormungandr, in
Norse mythology. Obviously, the Jormungandr/Wyrm thing is an instant connection, but
it doesn't jive with the rest of the mythlogy if you want to claim descent from
Fenris as a good thing. I kind of liked how the Black Furies aligned themselves with
the Gorgons but that sort of gets a bit confused with the Artemis thing.
I'm actually starting to like the whole "Gaia" thing in WtA less and less and liking
the idea of the Garou being unabashed supporters of the Wyld, in a cosmology where
there was no Gaia at all, just the Triat in eternal unresolved tension, more. Then
it would be easy to align the Garou with all the wild and wooly primordial monsters
against all the human-like deities. They support the Giants in Norse mythology, the
Titans and the Gorgons and all the other assorted freaks in Greek mythology, Tiamat
against Marduk, etc.
>
> I realize this is less of an issue in the present, but Garou society
> seems quite good at preserving ancient traditions, and it would seem
> that human traditions would be likely to come along for the ride, so
> I think it is still important to modern day Garou.
>
> The Get have the potential to be one of my favorite Tribes, and to
> allow me to access the themes in Werewolf in a way that resonates
> strongly for me. I want to play the Ahroun inspired by Thor, the
> Ragabash by Loki, the Theurge by Odin.
>
> Oh yeah, and runes baby, gimme runes.
Pax - You should check out Death in June's song "Of Runes and Men." I think you'd
like it.
brendan
Brendan T. Moran
winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
Total agreement.
>
> Alright, here are some things that I would like to see as the "end
> times" come near, that would, in my eyes, make the garou seem a more
> intelligent race.
>
> 1. A systematic deconstruction of the Veil. I don't mean Delerium,
> that would take thousands of Children of Gaia repeatedly doing a right,
> or an army of kinfolk psychotherapists. What I mean is a slow but
> steady removal of the illusion that wereowlves don't exist. Start only
> with those that are allied to your cause (and be smart, scent 'em for
> the Wyrm before you tell them anything... in fact, do so at least 3
> times, just to make sure that you haven't botched the first one). Tell
> them of the truth of the matter, that the garou exist, and that Gaia
> needs their help.
Do you know how powerful the Christian Right is in this country? They get
lathered up into a frenzy over the movie "Practical Magic." Ask a lot of
Wiccans about the kind of persecuton they go through. Then see if you'll
get a warm reception preaching the goodness of Gaia.
>
> Get some spirits in on the matter. A human being seeing a person
> turn into a wolf might not believe in Gaia, but a quick trip to the
> Umbra to see the true form of what is going on with his world is going
> to be a convert rather quickly.
You won't be able to do that on a large enough scale to make the people
coming back seem any more credible than UFO abductees.
>
> Also, you Theurges, you're supposed to be clerics and Shahmans, a
> connection between the mortal world and the spiritual world. Start
> connecting the two, dammit. Get yourself a Church of Gaia and start
> yourself a preaching about how Gaia needs all of our help. If you get
> it blown into a full out cult, you can get people to live in the Tribal
> settings, as Gaia intended.
See how far that went in the 60s, throw in the opposition of the Pat
Robertsons of the world as well as the government, and you'll see your
movement collapse so fast it would make your head spin.
Oh, and we might want to point out the intense and completely irrational
fear garou engender in humans. When humans run into something they fear on
an individual basis they run like hell. When humans run into something they
fear on a collective basis they root it out, hunt it down, and kill it.
Garou are tough but severely outnumbered.
>
> The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
> aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou. When
> people know that it's either start helping Gaia or die at the hands of
> the Wyrm, they'll get to acting. And, making this more immediate and
> sure than the Christians by actually giving a show of the powers of Gaia
> and the destruction the Wyrm is causing will start a slap in the apathy
> of the human race.
>
It would cause a massive miscommunication that would result in all the
Gaian Garou getting exterminated, probably along with most of the BSDs,
and vampires, and funny-looking hippies, probably the homosexuals, and
maybe the Jews again. When witch-hunts start up, they get ugly really
quickly.
>
> 2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The single
> biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let them
> have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be rulers in
> Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
> options for authority.
>
Kinfolk aren't quite fit to be field leadership, seeing as how they break
so easy.
>
> 3. A systematic seeking out of the Changing Breeds that still live, and
> sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
> (preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the Gurahl
> or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am *Insert
> Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the crimes
> our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
> crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take without
> challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia. It
> would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
>
The Gurahl just might accept this if it really REALLY REALLY seemed sincere
(though they'd probably lecture the young pups about their previous follies
FOREVER), as might some of the Bastet Tribes. I doubt the Mokole would
really be into it, the Corax would probably just look at them funny, and
the Rokea would look at them funny a moment before eating them. And the
Ratkin? ROFL.
>
> 4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
> start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be considered
> worthy breeding stock to the garou.
>
Hello, my Aryan brother! I would like you to help me choose which of your
bitches have wide enough hips to birth many fine warriors for the new
master race to use in the coming all-consuming battle against the forces of
Bolshevism..err, the Wyrm! Yes the Wyrm! Perhaps your mother? Yes, she's a
fine looking sow with thighs like an elephant! Her brood will trample the
untermenschen beneath our mighty boot!
Sorry. Perhaps that was in bad taste, but the idea of sorting out humans
into worthy vs. unworthy breeding stock seems a little Mein Kamph to me...
>
> 5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
> destruction because their lands aren't available any more. There is an
> entire freaking Umbra out there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are human
> beings, not garou, not spiritual represenations of human beings, but
> actual human beings in the Child of Gaia home Realm. So, use that area
> while you can, bring some wolf packs out there to a few good realms,
> such as Pangea, the Gateway to Arcadia, The Legendary Realms, The Summer
> Country is always good, and Wolfhome. Ofcourse, the Tribal Homelands
> are also good places for Wolfkin to run wyld.
> There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
> could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
> having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms would
> produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
>
Who might not be good at dealing with real problems, but aside from that,
not the worst idea...
>
> 6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern Building?
> It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work with
> some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the local
> gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
> spiritual activity.
>
Lots of nasties can come through those holes. LOTS of them.
winge...@my-deja.com
wouldn't let me post the thing whole.
In article <39C4D5A0...@ihug.com.au>,
Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I'm not familiar with this particular example. It could very well
prove
> > me wrong, but I'm not familiar with it.
>
> World of Rage, page 59. And I'll lessen my words a bit, 'unofficial
> ceasefire between the Get and Furies of Italy' is the best
description.
Thanks for the site... I'll see if I can get a look at that.
As for my reason for that issue is that they are ignoring a buttload of
Wyrm right in front of them in order to focus only on women's issues.
Did you know that, if a woman takes her children to a shelter for
battered women and one of her boys happens to be 13, he won't be allowed
in? Nope, he'll just have to live with his father, who probably isn't
all that mellowed by the fact that his wife just left him with the
kids... save this one that didn't do anything to stop her.
That's a part of the issue. In the WoD, the BFs have a lot to do with
it. They're sexists (I have the book, they're phylosophy is incredibly
sexist). The only ones that aren't are extreme moderates. They
specifically say that a man's place should be beneath the women. Can
you say hypocracy? They're ignoring a host of other problems and issues
that the Wyrm can so easily and obviously get into because they don't
want to deal with anything but women's issues.
Stating, for the record, that women's issues do need addressing. If a
woman has a battering husband, not only get her out of that, also rip
the batterer's dick off and choke him to death with it. I have no room
in my affections for bullies, and family abusers are up there with
rapists on that scale.
>
> > Jesus Christ is often described as kind and benevolant, taking a
look at
> > most of your hard core Christians...
>
> Hey, watch it. I'm a hardcore Christian. ;-)
Excuse me, most of those I've known have grown entirely to the opposite
of kind, loving, and benevolant upon hearing that I'm an atheist. On
another example, if you look to the right newsgroups, you'll find
stories of atheists that have gotten black eyes because their
superchristian friends decided that such tactics would be the best to
get them to "see the light".
>
> What that is is an example. I've also provided an example of the
> Get making a ceasefire for their general advantage. The Get also
> do respect intelligence, but an applied intelligence. Someone who
> can make good decisions, win battles or protect Caerns, this is
> something they respect greatly.
I'm not saying anything against that. It's one of the good things about
the Get phylosophy that it has them respecting results... if not methods
to get there.
The problem comes in with the fact that they're all too willing to die.
In order to be a good garou warrior you have to be ready to die. One
of my characters in a tabletop game had a saying "Yes death scares me,
it scares the shit outta me. But, Gaia's death scares me more, that
scares the shit and just about everything else outta me."
But, these guys are eager for it. They all want to die in battle so
they can get into Valhalla. Well, folks, being ready to kill a bane by
choking it with your corpse may be one thing, but let's try a little
something else first.
>
> > You're siting the extreme individuals here. If they were all so
> > intelligent, they wouldn't have the reputation for being the
> > backstabbing bastards that they are.
>
> I'm citing examples. And I think the backstabbing bastards
> perception is primarily an OOC thing, it's how they get
> played a lot, hence that's how they get seen in games.
That's what it says in the book. It literally says that the amount of
trust one gives to a Shadow Lord is inverse in relation to the number of
Shadow Lords in the area. And, if you look at the 2nd ed (i don't have
revised) mainbook's comic book, there you have 'em being assholes as
much as usual.
>
> I mean, if they were really so distrusted, then people
> wouldn't keep going to them for help. And people DO
> go to them for help, again, refer to World of Rage,
> the Europe chapter for a few examples.
Inexperience, desperation, or a combonation of the two.
>
> (And sure, one of those two people going to them
> for help has probably just done major damage to her
> tribe, but that's besides the point. ;-) )
>
> > Ok, site? I'm not aware of this.
>
> King Albrecht, I forget exactly when. But yep, he's
> clearly a break away from the old, inbred Fangs. He's
> young, healthy, hopeful and wants the Fangs to
> display more of those qualities.
Well, yay for King Albrecht, then. Wow... he can get some better blood
in without actually betraying the traditions of only bringing in
greatness. It's just that they've been describing greatness as
"inbredbastard that was born into great power and didn't really have to
work to attain it" for so long.
>
> > And, you'll agree, that the reason that they are so problematic is
that
> > the problem of inbreeding has been going on for many generations,
enough
> > for them to have noticed a few generations ago.
>
> It's a problem, but they've noticed it all right. Some are
> moving to fix it, others are worried that the break in
> tradition could do damage, which isn't that dumb an
> argument. Tradition can be a powerful weapon.
Tradition can be a powerful weapon... of the Weaver's. They're falling
into the Weaver's trap of fear of change as much as the Red Talons are.
>
> I see the Silver Fangs as a lot like the Catholic Church.
> (No offence to any Catholics here intended.) They've got
> a lot of tradition behind them, and that makes them very
> powerful, but it also makes them rigid and is contributing
> to their decline. Many within both groups see the problem,
> but trying to fix it has lead to some... tacky results. (See
> Dogma for a great satire on this.)
Seen it, can't really believe that anybody found that movie offensive to
Christians, it was a very "pro god" movie at the end there, even though
God punished two angels for being more compasionate than he was.
>
> > Ofcourse, I firmly believe that ending the Impregium was a mistake.
> > They started it, which was a mistake, but after 1,000 generations or
so,
> > there was more dissaster in ending it than in continuing it...
>
> Just about every Garou agrees ending the Impergium
Well... every Lupus. Most Homids are too close to the issue to see it
that clearly.
was not
> the best idea in the world. Some would argue starting it was
> the mistake, others would argue ending it at all was the
> mistake, but no matter which way you look at it, they botched
> it. And they know this, and lament the fact. Again, this is a
> smart group who made a mistake, not a bunch of morons.
They made the mistake the first time, because the Red Talons were in
such a froth that they killed everybody. The second time, because the
CoG's played on their sympathies. This all goes into the issue that, if
they would take a moment to think, just for a minute, they might see
that there are problems that go well beyond the immediate involved.
>
> > Those things combine into huge mistakes, that a few level heads
looking
> > at the issue could say "this goes beyond emotion here, the situation
> > can't be solved so simply as killing them all or simply stopping".
> > Which, by the way, is why I made sure to deal with a systematic
> > deconstruction of the Veil.
>
> OK, I will agree emotion is a big thing for the Garou. Rage and
> all that.
>
> But what is it that the rest of the tribes all say about the
Stargazers?
> They're too 'heady'. And I agree. Humans as a general rule are
> too brainy and focused on rationality rather than emotion.
You think so? You would be wrong. You get humans into a group large
enough, and it only takes the slightest emotional manipulation to get
them working up into a froth enough to bring the soundest equal rights
supporter into a race hatred. (BTW, that's what I mean by pack
mentality, not the mentality of garou packs)
I think
> one of the biggest problems with the Garou right now is that they're
> not trusting their instincts enough, as the Lupus population declines.
That's their stupidity *now*. The War of Rage, the Impregium, it's
disasterous end, the Bunyip, and the second War of Rage were all
examples of what happened when they acted immediately on their emotions
without taking a moment to think about it.
>
> Basically, the danger of espousing the ecological and environmental
> agenda is that you forget that the Wyrm is real. It becomes a concept,
> rather than a dark elder thing. That, of course, is a deadly game.
Rather, the Wyrm *is* a concept more than it is a spirit. That's how
hard it is to fight. You've got the Banes and BSDs and such there.
That's the easy part. You can't go forgetting that they're all around,
but they're servants of a concept, that concept is every needless
destruction, every corruption, every lie we tell ourselves to justify it
and say it isn't that bad.
I would argue that fighting the "dark elder thing" and not fighting the
inherent concept has been the problem that brought us to this point.
"dark elder thing" is easy to see. Concept, you have to look for and be
ever vigilante against.
>
> > Here, I would argue that they're not so much of the Wyld as they are
of
> > the wilds. The Wyld is constant creation, change, and chaos. The
> > Weaver is that which fears change most of all. And, the Red Talons
fear
> > change, which is the major reason they're dieing out.
>
> The Wyld is an elder thing, a god, or a force, of creation.
> Reducing it to a concept is playing the Weavers game of
> categorization and codification. The Wyld stands for many
> of these things, but it is an entirely seperate entity from them.
The single issue here is their *fear* of change and their refusal to
change. The Wyld loathes stasis, it goes against the Wyld's nature to
be the same thing for any period of time. Consider that, by the Wyld's
own nature of insiting change and differentiation in everything, an
infinity of balance is nigh impossible. So, their pristine nature was
doomed to be paved over, only to sprout new life again.
It is the Weaver that seeks that everything be unchanging. And, it is
the Weaver's curse that weakens many a people with a fear of change
that, ironicly, keeps them removed from most other aspects of the
Weaver's web.
>
> And the Red Talons have changed over the years themselves.
> Note that in WW:DA, the Red Talons are merely eyeing humanity
> with suspicion, and arguing that a few steps could avert disaster.
> (Boy oh boy, were they right.) As time went on, and the disasters
> pooled up, the Red Talons changed, alright. The methods became
> more extreme. They saw desperate need to change the way
> things were headed.
I would suggest that this is a change of degree rather than nature.
>
> I will agree that the Red Talons do harken back to a 'Golden Age'
> scenario, which they don't want changed. But it's a Wyld driven,
> primal vision of food chains, back and forth, life and death, where
> change occurs rapidly and continually.
It was a Wyld driven force back then *because* it was ever changing. By
the Wyld's nature, everything that dies is doomed to die completely now
and again.
Trees grow and die.
> Mountains rise and fall away. This is not the same as the Weaver
> oriented vision of unmoving, forever standing skyscrapers and
> plastic.
No, but it is a mistake to assume that, because they're fighting for a
true ideal that they themselves are not quite tainted with that which
they fight against.
>
> > Most of them are heavily Weaver oriented. A few of them are into
urban
> > primitives and such, but, for the most part, they think that, by
serving
> > the Weaver, they can aid Gaia. I think the quote in the 2nd Ed main
> > book is something about Gaia surviving better armored in steel with
a
> > wall of smog around her.
>
> Yeah. It's a curious theory which has never caught on with the other
> tribes, and I personally think is likely falling out of favor within
the
> tribe itself. For now, point, but let's see how Werewolf Revised
> treats them.
I hope they get a little smarter about it. But, they show far too much
faith in a Weaver that's obviously leading the Wyrm's panicked
thrashings to where he wants them to thrash.
>
> I wonder if perhaps the City Farmers are garnering a bit more
> respect as time goes on. They look more and more feasible
> every day.
You see *they've* got a portion of the right idea here. They're not
refusing all change, they're doing what they can to keep the Wyld strong
in the midst of the change. Bring the Wyld to the cities, and not even
the Weaver can stop it. But, they don't wish to destroy the Machine.
Even they're missing the obvious truth in that the Weaver leads and the
Wyrm follows.
winge...@my-deja.com
>
> > And, of course, a lot of this is to be expected with a race of
warriors
> > based on instinct. They get pissed off easily and act without
> > thinking... it's when they do so, as a race, that they get dumber
than
> > toast, and it is when they get into that hive mentality that they
will
> > do the dumb-assest shit... rather like human beings who, when they
> > gather into groups, tend to be dumber than toast as well.
>
>
> > I agree. When on an individual level, they can be quite intelligent
and
> > have all the advantages an quick and able mind can have. But, when
they
> > hit upon the pack mentality, acting as a group, they get into that
> > mistake that makes everybody dumber than toast, which is acting
without
> > thinking.
>
> of words. Garou packs also tend to be fairly smart, effective units
> who make good decisions. (Well, depends on the pack, but there's
> not a decided shift to 'dumb as toast'.) Why? Because the politics
> are relatively straightforward and clean. There's enough lupus
> thought to keep the system simplistic (Alpha makes decisions,
> anyone can challenge to be alpha,) and enough homid reasoning
> to give the system some fairness. (Challenge should meet the
> situation, so we need to create some different challenges.) It's a
> good, solid, workable unit.
No, not the mentality of packs, but their mentality when they get into
large enough groups. This works the same with humans. The larger the
group, the lower the intelligence of any individual. They'll believe
more, be more manipulatable, and, all in all, be dumber for being in the
largest of groups.
>
> It's when you hit the sept level that it begins to get problematic.
> Suddenly you've got positions, claims, overshadings of
> responsibility. People start clammoring for places of power
> and glory, bad decisions are made to further minor agendas.
> Suddenly, it don't look so good.
>
> Then you get multiple septs, or the Garou Nation. Here, the
> whole thing begins to fall apart.
>
> Which is why, as I've said before, the Garou Nation won't
> avert the Apocalypse. It's a flawed unit. Efforts to
> reunite it are, in my opinion, doomed to failure. If the
> Apocalypse is averted, it'll be due to independant
> packs, working on their own. Heroes will be needed, not
> bureaucracies..
>
> > The real problem is that the Garou have this mentality 10fold.
Human
> > societies have come around with the virtue of deviating from an
immoral
> > norm, but still have a conformity and a pack instinct. As do the
> > wolves, hense, the problems come in spades.
>
> Well, I think I've presented a counterargument, rather than the
> lupus part being the problem, it's really the homid part of the
> Garou which is awkward. Of course, I could easily argue that
> it's the divide between the two which really causes all the
> problems, but hey, the first edition players guide does that
> already. :-)
The wolves are just an illustraition of the pack instinct, which grows
to work against itself, in the Garou.
It's their instinct to band together in the face of adversity. This is
why they have Tribes that war against each other. This is the instinct
most at fault for the War of Rage, the Impregium, the Bunyip dissaster,
the Second War of Rage, etc.
If you look closely, the same happens with humans. We've come into such
large groupings, that, within the groupings, groupings grow to take up
arms against whatever enemies they can find. This is why we have shit
like gangs and the KKK.
>
> > That's why you have at least 3 garou with the gift do it at least 3
> > times each. If one of them gets that "something tainted on this one
> > comes" just once, this dude isn't the one you tell... Even if it
was
> > just the McDonalds Burger that they were eating at the time.
>
> And each one you eliminate, and that's an awful lot, makes the
> effort less valuable. Plus, it's time consuming, and the Garou
> don't have time. For all intents and purposes, the Apocalypse is
> here tomorrow. It could be. The Garou don't know, and they
> can't gamble on time.
They can't gamble on its lack either. They've been doing that for the
past few decades. You're working in celestial time, here. It could be
tomorrow, or it could be in the next half century. Either way, you
can't count on the Apocalypse happening tomorrow.
>
> > Such problems can be aleviated by taking the slow approach. The
wisest
> > of humanity, that is with the enviromentalist cause, first. Then
the
> > second wisest. You slowly get the ball rolling.
>
> Again, time isn't on the Garou's side. It's on the Wyrms. It
> has the advantage and can press it, and if the Garou let
> their guard down to try a long term solution, you bet it
> will.
Which is an excuse they've been using for *how* long now?
>
> > The GlassWalkers can expose their illegal and immoral practices
simply
> > by handing a Corax a cam-corder.
>
> Which is countered by them buying the tape off the nearest
> TV station for more money than they'll make out of the
> advertising and controversy. Well within Pentex's ability,
> and they'd do it.
Simply taken care of by owning a private station.
>
> > Then make the challenges those other than of battle. Riddle
contests,
> > contests of intelligence, tactics, etc.
>
> Which plays into the monkey games. Again, not something the
> lupus are happy about. Now, the garou lupus might handle it,
> it's something they deal with on a regular basis with Garou
> packs. But trying to get the lupus kinfolk to deal with it?
> Much tougher.
Ok, challenges of leadership. "He who can lead their pack to goal *X*
wins." I should also remind you that the Lupus garou are as good as any
human at riddles, somewhat better for their having not so rigid a view
on the issue.
>
> > And, in the Kinfolk Book, they told tale of a Lupus Kinfolk that
lead a
> > pack for 10 years, and did so leading, not telling people where to
fight
> > then sitting back and moving the pieces. That is leadership the
garou
> > could use.
>
> Agreed. It can happen, but it's something tricky to implement, and
> difficult to get working on a regular basis.
I'm not talking about even implimenting it. Not restricting it woudl be
a good start.
>
> > The best ideas often aren't.
>
> If they're not feasible, they can be great theoretical ideas, but the
> Garou need practicality. They need things that'll work, and quickly.
They've been looking for quick fixes for too long now. It's their
"apocolypse is coming tomorrow" excuse which they've been using for at
least a few decades now.
>
> > They're not going to do it. If the Aboriginal people suddenly
became a
> > force that could, possibly, turn the tides of a centuries long war
in
> > the Australian's favor, you bet you'ld see some soldiers coming with
> > writs of "here's your land back if you help us not die".
>
> Right. Sadly, I think that's true, and I believe Reconciliation is a
> doomed if noble concept. It's time to abandon it and for the
> Aboriginal people to simply demand their own nation. It's a
> radical step, but they've got plenty of models to base it on.
> We're one of the few countries not to have internal nations.
Um, dude, Native American Land is soveriegn and the US Army isn't
allowed to go there without the consent of the Native Americans living
there.
>
> > It'll take some good speakers, too, like that one in the Mokole`
book
> > that reminded them that the Mokole` and the garou interbred and
worked
> > together once. But, the "I offer my life in appology" would be a
> > beginning that the garou sorely need in order to turn the tides of
the
> > Appocolypse.
>
> It'd take really, really good diplomats. And, here's the question: Can
> the Garou afford to lose those diplomats to suicide? I'd say no. The
> Garou can't afford to lose anyone.
If they can't afford to lose anyone, they're screwed, because then they
couldn't afford to fight the wyrm because somebody could die. Well,
excuse me if I find that to be a load. It's a risky maneuver. But, the
gain will greatly outweigh the cost if they can get on speaking terms
with the other Changing Breeds again.
>
> Of course, since you can't send one over there to die, you lose three
> in the battle with the bete. Screwed both ways.
Send one in. Also note, he's not killing himself, he's giving the other
Changing Breeds the right to kill him without challenge. The Ratkin,
who I wouldn't involve in this anyway as insane as they are, would
definately kill the dude. But, the Gurahl wouldn't. The Mokole` might.
The Bastet possibly, but it wouldn't be necessary for them, the Garou
and Bastet already do have some individuals on speaking terms.
If you get the Gurahl and the Mokole` on speaking terms with the Gaoru,
you've made a stride for Gaia that's more important than the Rite of
Caern Building.
>
> > Who said a garou only needs one partner? Instinct on both human and
> > wolf side lends to multiple partners throughout the lifespan.
>
> Well, the female Garou don't exactly have the option. As for the men,
> remember that Garou society does and always has rewarded life long
> mates. See the renown chart for an example of this.
Yes they do. Serial Manogomy, it's instinctive for both humans and
wolves.
>
> Besides. The Black Spiral Dancers make a point of grabbing tons
> of mates, usually without consent. Such a program for the Garou,
> even relying on consent (which is tricky, difficult to get and again,
> time consuming. Remember, we're dealing with attempted
> conception here, which takes longer than a one night stand,) reaks
> too much of what they're doing.
Consent is an issue here... true.
>
> > Easily enough, considering that young wolves often leave their
packs,
> > sometimes to start new ones.
> >
> > Also, mind you, that the Lupus Garou could also take part in
starting
> > said packs. A female Lupus being the Female Alpha, be a good way to
> > start the breeding stock as well.
>
> Possibly, but then you're losing a Garou from the fight, again.
> It's a question of resource management. If you're willing to
> gamble that the Garou have maybe fifty years or more
> left, this kind of policy has merits.
A. Temporarily lose a few female garou from the fight.
B. Wolf generations are much faster than human ones. They reproduce
every year. This can be a relatively fast way to populate certain
realms of the Umbra.
>
> But if you assume it could happen this year, not such a
> great idea.
That's a big assumption, that the Garou have been working with for
generations now. What they need is to take a chance.
>
> > These are wolves, they don't think in issues of "traditional
grounds".
> > They think in issues of territory, which not all of them have.
>
> True.
>
> > This is assuming that you're bringing all the wolves into the umbra.
> > I'm just talking about bringing, or starting, a few new packs in
select
> > places in the umbra. A few generations later, you'll have strong
wolves
> > from which gaoru will come.
>
> But the Garou don't have generations to spare.
A. They don't know that for sure. They've been thinking that for a few
generations now.
B. Human generations or wolf generations? You know how fast wolves
reproduce?
>
> Time is one of the big reasons the Garou are seen as stupid, IMO.
> They don't have enough time for sensible, rational plans, and
> so drastic measures become the standard method of action. If
> those fail, they fail badly.
That's exactly the problem. Some may argue that the world is going to
end tomorrow, so there isn't time for sensible solutions. But, they've
been arguing that for generations now. They've been counting on the
world ending tomorrow, looking for so much to die for. It's time for
them to take a chance on the future and see if they can come up with
something to live for.
>
> This doesn't explain bone-dumb stuff like the War of Rage,
> which was dumb-as-toast, but it explains more recent stuff.
You insult toast, my dear friend. It was dumber than toast.
>
> > *much* smaller version, remember. The BSDs and other wyrmies
wouldn't
> > sense a new Caern a formin'.
>
> You can't be sure of that, unless you spend massive time and energy
> on developing the new rite. Again, time is the problem.
There is that. But, then again, there are other ways to lower the
gauntlet.
Rumors, for one. Artists. Hold a rally. Invite the local wiccan
groups to do some of their rituals.
Ofcourse, Magi are usually able.
>
> > I'm *not* talking about creating new caerns, just breaking the
gauntlet
> > down a notch or two. there is one huge, mother-trucking, ass the
size
> > of Jupitor, difference.
>
> So how, then, is this lowered gauntlet preserved?
When you get the spirits active in the area, that will have an affect on
the issue.
Caerns are
> carefully managed, looked after areas, whose condition is
> critical to their function. (It's enough of a concern that there's
> an official spot for it, the Keeper of the Land.) I daresay these
> areas of artificially weakened gauntlet would last for maybe a
> few weeks to a few months, then fall back to normal.
>
> > Well, out of ignorance as to the vast ecological reprocusions and
also
> > thinking that those in the blast would die instantly, without
suffering.
> > The garou could just have sat down and thought for a minute or two
to
> > realize the huge, mother-trucking, blocking out the sun and the
moon,
> > problems that would arize from A. Begining the Impregium,
>
> Nothing like this had ever been done before. The Garou had no
> frame of reference. And whilst some Garou did feel it would be
> problematic, others thought it was a good solution.
They had no frame of reference? The fucking Wyrm is a frame of
reference. It's trying to kill everything, and what is their opinion of
it? Would they just forgive it if it suddenly stopped and said "I'm
sorry"? *NO*.
>
> And the juries still out on whether it was a bad decision or not.
> It never got completed.
>
> > B. Ending it after waiting too long,
>
> Same thing. There were now some problems arising from the
> Impergium itself, and the Garou had the choice of either
> ending it, or working through the problems somehow.
> Without knowing exactly what those problems were, it's
> difficult to judge how bad a decision it was.
The problem was that they were just too stupid. Once they started it,
they couldn't end it. It's not like you can always go back and do the
right thing. It's a river and they were trying to unbreak a damn. It
just don't work.
A little bit of Taoism in the phylosophy would have told them not to try
to force things back, but to work with what they were dealing with now.
>
> We do know the effects of this. Stuff like the Veil and
> the Delirium kicked in, and added fuel to humanities
> genocidal fire.
>
> > C. The War of Rage.
>
> Dumbass decision all around. Still, the books which have
> looked at it most heavily have all been Breed books, so
> the Garou are naturally coming out looking the worst
> in all of them. The Silver Record, whilst also deploring
> the War, shows the kind of stuff which caused it.
> Doesn't make it better, just makes it clear how it
> happened and what they were thinking at the time.
Well, if I remember correctly, it went ass such. "What, the Garou
aren't telling us how to raise the dead? We'll kill everybody who isn't
us!" That is dumber than toast.
>
> > D. The Second War of Rage,
>
> Dumbass, failing to look at past mistakes, and seeming
> damn essential at the time. Still, of all the decisions the
> Garou have made, this one qualifies as the worst.
>
> > E. the Bunyip dissaster.
>
> Again, this was just bad. But it wasn't just the Garou,
> remember. The humans had as much a hand in killing
> the Bunyip's kinfolk, both human and thylaccine.
The humans were at least ignorant. The Garou have no such excuse.
>
> Besides, I could put together a really easy theory
> showing how damned Weaverish the Bunyip
> really were. It's not hard to see the Garou thinking the
> Bunyip were the next Black Spiral Dancers, and
> trying to nip the problem in the bud.
Thanks to the Bunyip and their kinfolk, an entire second Umbra came
about. Weaverish? I think not.
>
> And usually, nipping something in the bud is a good
> idea. It's just a good idea to make sure that you're
> nipping a weed, not a flower.
>
> > But, that's what you expect when you create a race of warriors that
gets
> > easily pissed off and thinks in packs.
>
> It's what you get when you have a people bound to a failing
> purpose. Let's face it, you look through the entire history of
> the Garou, and they've really been fighting an uphill battle.
> Sure, they've made it harder on themselves, but to some
> degree they're doing a lot better than they could be doing.
> Things could be a lot worse for them.
Yah, but they could be a lot better if they had brain one in their
collective skull. Same thing with the Library at Alexandria... you know
how much better the standard of living could have been raised if they
had used the information in there instead of burning it because it
didn't worship Allah?
>
> As an example, again, see the 7th Generation victory.
> An unbridled, out and out success story. The Garou do
> have some success, and do make some smart decisions.
Then let's hear about 'em. All through the books, we hear about the
Garou's dumbest and most dissasterous mistakes. They should get the
good stuff in there.
>
> Then again, they also make some hideous decisions.
> World of Rage has one downright, out and out, bad
> decision.
>
> > It does when you consider that the only ones that ever take a moment
to
> > sit and think about what the fuck their doing are the ones that A.
> > nobody listens to, and B. hardly fight at all.
>
> And it has to be said, B is often responsible for A.
And A for B.
winge...@my-deja.com
They got lathered up... and Practical Magic still made it into theatres.
In fact, wasn't it a Christian Right woman who got "Married With
Children" kept on the air past its first season by opposing it so
vehimently?
You'll notice their opposition is becoming less and less effective as
people realize exactly how much shit their full of.
>
> >
> > Get some spirits in on the matter. A human being seeing a
person
> > turn into a wolf might not believe in Gaia, but a quick trip to the
> > Umbra to see the true form of what is going on with his world is
going
> > to be a convert rather quickly.
>
> You won't be able to do that on a large enough scale to make the
people
> coming back seem any more credible than UFO abductees.
Like I said, take a slow approach... for now.
>
> >
> > Also, you Theurges, you're supposed to be clerics and Shahmans,
a
> > connection between the mortal world and the spiritual world. Start
> > connecting the two, dammit. Get yourself a Church of Gaia and start
> > yourself a preaching about how Gaia needs all of our help. If you
get
> > it blown into a full out cult, you can get people to live in the
Tribal
> > settings, as Gaia intended.
>
> See how far that went in the 60s, throw in the opposition of the Pat
> Robertsons of the world as well as the government, and you'll see your
> movement collapse so fast it would make your head spin.
You think Pat Robetson's opposition really bad? What's really going to
knock your socks off is how much press you get after Pat Robertson
accuses the Church of Gaia of conducting animal sacrifices, then having
a priestess or two show their real practices. Their opposition will
only strengthen such a movement.
You want to make a group powerful, give 'em an enemy that's huge.
>
> Oh, and we might want to point out the intense and completely
irrational
> fear garou engender in humans. When humans run into something they
fear on
> an individual basis they run like hell. When humans run into something
they
> fear on a collective basis they root it out, hunt it down, and kill
it.
> Garou are tough but severely outnumbered.
The Theurges need not break the veil to start the church of Gaia.
>
> >
> > The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
> > aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou.
When
> > people know that it's either start helping Gaia or die at the hands
of
> > the Wyrm, they'll get to acting. And, making this more immediate
and
> > sure than the Christians by actually giving a show of the powers of
Gaia
> > and the destruction the Wyrm is causing will start a slap in the
apathy
> > of the human race.
> >
>
> It would cause a massive miscommunication that would result in all the
> Gaian Garou getting exterminated, probably along with most of the
BSDs,
> and vampires, and funny-looking hippies, probably the homosexuals, and
> maybe the Jews again. When witch-hunts start up, they get ugly really
> quickly.
If the War of Rage had one good affect, it was that people now know how
easily one can escape one's entire family into the Umbra. That's how
Corax saved many a changing Breed.
>
> >
> > 2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The
single
> > biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let
them
> > have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be
rulers in
> > Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
> > options for authority.
> >
>
> Kinfolk aren't quite fit to be field leadership, seeing as how they
break
> so easy.
Field leadership, maybe not. But Ritual leadership or policy
leadership, possibly.
It wouldn't be necessary for the Corax, they weren't Raged on. It
wouldn't be necessary for the Rokea... they don't know what you're
talking about in the first place. The Mokole` might take the appology
for what it's worth... and that would be a foot in the door.
The point is, Garou, get off your swollen egos and do a little
groveling, it's what you need to do to survive.
>
> >
> > 4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
> > start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be
considered
> > worthy breeding stock to the garou.
> >
>
> Hello, my Aryan brother! I would like you to help me choose which of
your
> bitches have wide enough hips to birth many fine warriors for the new
> master race to use in the coming all-consuming battle against the
forces of
> Bolshevism..err, the Wyrm! Yes the Wyrm! Perhaps your mother? Yes,
she's a
> fine looking sow with thighs like an elephant! Her brood will trample
the
> untermenschen beneath our mighty boot!
>
> Sorry. Perhaps that was in bad taste, but the idea of sorting out
humans
> into worthy vs. unworthy breeding stock seems a little Mein Kamph to
me...
Perhaps it does look that way... a little, if you focus on that part.
But, there are a thousand other ways to judge "worth".
>
> >
> > 5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
> > destruction because their lands aren't available any more. There is
an
> > entire freaking Umbra out there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are
human
> > beings, not garou, not spiritual represenations of human beings, but
> > actual human beings in the Child of Gaia home Realm. So, use that
area
> > while you can, bring some wolf packs out there to a few good realms,
> > such as Pangea, the Gateway to Arcadia, The Legendary Realms, The
Summer
> > Country is always good, and Wolfhome. Ofcourse, the Tribal
Homelands
> > are also good places for Wolfkin to run wyld.
> > There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
> > could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
> > having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms
would
> > produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
> >
>
> Who might not be good at dealing with real problems, but aside from
that,
> not the worst idea...
The garou, as a whole, aren't the best at it anyway.
>
> >
> > 6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern
Building?
> > It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work
with
> > some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the
local
> > gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
> > spiritual activity.
> >
>
> Lots of nasties can come through those holes. LOTS of them.
Not Holes. People really need to learn to read more carefully.
Weakened gauntlet, not punctured.
Vis Sierra
> "Ethan Skemp" <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Just trying to play my part as the founding member of the
> anti-defamation
> > "Garou Aren't Dumber Than Asphalt" society.
>
> Uh... speaking as somebody who's favorite Whitewolf game *is* WereWolf:
> The Apocalypse, the Garou are pretty much dumber than toast. The only
> Tribe that takes anything close to a pragmatic approach to the world is
> the Shadow Lords... and they're too stupid to take a step back and try
> to see that everybody can see how backstabbingly assholed they are.
[...snip WtA stereotypes...]
> Quite frankly, as a race, they have some certain idiocies about them and
> they have the damnedest time noticing the obvious.
Maybe they're not so obvious in WwRev.
Maybe the Shadow Lords aren't all that holey. Maybe they've just
received that stereotype because it was spread by Silver Fang
rivals, and they're no more evil, wyrmy manipulators than the SFs
themselves.
Maybe the Children of Gaia have a common political agenda, but a
diverse approach to how they accomplish it and how many sincerely
follow it. Maybe the typical Black Fury is only a Black Fury due
to her mother being one, not because she was an abused child who
grew up to hate men and joined lycanthropic manhaters anonymous.
It's not as easy to encapsulate characters that way, but maybe
making the members of the Tribes less dependent on their ethnic
stereotypes and more dependent on individual, pack, and spiritual
identities is a good thing. Maybe it's already there, just not
what people choose to see when slamming the Garou for failing to
notice the obvious.
Now that would be ironic. <Grin>
> Alright, here are some things that I would like to see as the "end
> times" come near, that would, in my eyes, make the garou seem a more
> intelligent race.
>
> 1. A systematic deconstruction of the Veil. I don't mean Delerium,
> that would take thousands of Children of Gaia repeatedly doing a right,
: or an army of kinfolk psychotherapists.
[...]
> The reason for this is that the veil aids the BSDs and the Wyrm
> aligned creatures more than it ever could the Gaia Loyal Garou. When
> people know that it's either start helping Gaia or die at the hands of
> the Wyrm, they'll get to acting. And, making this more immediate and
> sure than the Christians by actually giving a show of the powers of Gaia
> and the destruction the Wyrm is causing will start a slap in the apathy
> of the human race.
I think you're way, WAY off on the nature of the average folk
of the World of Darkness. Half the time, you can't get the Garou
to take the Wyrm seriously enough to stop wanting to kill one
another.
When people know that it's either start helping the world's
largest food and pharmaceutical provider and largest private
contributor to charities or die at the hands of werewolves,
they'll get to acting. And, making this more immediate and
sure than Christianity by actually giving scientific proof of
the genetic traits that bias people to developing lycanthropy
(and offer FREE gene therapy - Pentex was building capital to
a purpose!). Recordings of countless savage werewolf attacks
on innocent bystanders (anyone can botch a frenzy roll) will
slap the human race out of its apathy and in the face of the
Delirium, hold more credit than a Corax with a camcorder.
> 2. Kinfolk leaders of the Garou. Yep, you heard me right. The single
> biggest reason Kinfolk turn to the Wyrm is that the garou won't let them
> have any authority or freedom otherwise. Some would rather be rulers in
> Hell than servants in Heaven. So, work with that. Give them the
> options for authority.
Vis's razor: for every person corrupted by being shut out from
power, there is someone who would have been corrupted by power.
In the world of Darkness, anyway.
> 3. A systematic seeking out of the Changing Breeds that still live, and
> sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
> (preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the Gurahl
> or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am *Insert
> Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the crimes
> our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
> crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take without
> challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia. It
> would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
As the aggressors, you have no right to say when or who goes!
Just keep sending your best young warriors to the Khan, Simba,
Pumonca. They might, eventually, convert to Christianity and
turn the other cheek. It's not like you've got a shortage of
Garou.
Out of curiosity, how many mid- or high-rank senior Garou are
a Gurahl's forgiveness worth? What of an Ajaba's forgiveness?
Seriously, I can see some Garou going on spirit quests to seek
reconciliation with the ancestor spirits of the other shifters,
but offering up their neck to the live ones is beyond the pale.
> 4. The inclusion of new humans into the realms of honorary kinfolk,
> start making decisions on which humans are good enough to be considered
> worthy breeding stock to the garou.
Heh. Best of all, no threat of them turning skindancers.
They go psychotic every time you shift near them, but no
plan's perfect.
> 5. The wolves, and many other animals, are nearing the brink of
> destruction because their lands aren't available any more. There is an
> entire freaking Umbra out there. Unless I'm mistaken, there are human
> beings, not garou, not spiritual represenations of human beings, but
> actual human beings in the Child of Gaia home Realm. So, use that area
> while you can, bring some wolf packs out there to a few good realms,
> such as Pangea, the Gateway to Arcadia, The Legendary Realms, The Summer
> Country is always good, and Wolfhome. Ofcourse, the Tribal Homelands
> are also good places for Wolfkin to run wyld.
> There is literally infinite space, in the Umbra, that the garou
> could use for wide open spaces for their wolf kin. And, certainly,
> having wolves grow and survive in Pangea or the Legendary Realms would
> produce a very strong and spiritually aware stock of Garou.
There literally isn't infinite space in the Umbra. The world is
Gaia, and the realms of the Umbra her children in her image. In
some, there is enough of Gaia's strength flowing to support human
lives. They are more like unborn children than adolescents, tied
to their mother by some invisible umbilical that draws power from
her. Wolves would be a small burden, no more than supporting
their lives on Earth - but no less, either.
Pangea is the home of (spirit) dire wolves, and necessarily so.
That's what was needed to survive. In the Arcadian Gateway and
the Legendary Realms wolves may be hunted or hated by the natives
(which would be rather ironic, if this was a Wendigo Theurge's
plan...). Summer Country and Wolfhome both seem to be rather
difficult to get to, outside of specific purposes; they may not
exist in the way other realms do.
Tribal homelands would be my first choice and best bet, if I used
them as more than the domains of the dead. To me, they are Garou
Elysian Fields. You can visit, but you cannot remain unless it's
your resting place. Children and cubs are not born there (though
there are many running, playing, typically unaware of their death
and distracting elders' minds from their own mortality).
Like all realms, I see them as much a state of mind as a place,
not just a different room from the one with the big blue ceiling.
This is perhaps a lose interpretation of what realms are and what
they're capable of doing to help you out. I think relocating the
world's wolf population undermines the importance of the loss of
wolf hunting ground within the Gaia realm, and I wouldn't suggest
it as a canonic change. (You could tell a hell of a story about
such a plan, as is true of most of your points; still, I wouldn't
use it for canon.)
> 6. Breaking down the Gauntlet. You know a that Rite of Caern Building?
> It totally rips a hole in the barrier between the worlds. Work with
> some spirits, get something together, start a Rite that lowers the local
> gauntlet rating by a few levels each time, you'll start to get more
> spiritual activity.
That is what the rite of Caern Building does - as one of the most
potent, costly rites the Garou know. You can simply *say* "let's
build a bunch of Caerns all over the place." Being an election
year, that sort of promise won't sound out of place. It's just a
completely unfeasible plan to implement. Even if you could slice
the risks and costs in half, I wouldn't consider it practical for
the Garou.
> Now, I fully realize that not all of these are going to work out
> completely, but it's better than what the Garou are doing right now,
> which consists of "Let's kill each other then kill the wyrm then kill
> each other again".
If you go by what sounds good without a critical review of what
would actually work, given the people you have to work with,
you can listen to "Imagine" then decide to support Communism.
It's got to be better than the "Let's kill each other then kill
people from some third world country then kill each other again"
view of the current American federal system.
For the record, I like "Imagine" and I like your post. It's not
something I'd rest the fate of the world (or game line) on by
taking it literally as a plan for the future, but worth a listen.
> I don't mean to belittle a truly good game. And, I've played games that
> have had rather intelligent individual garou. But, the Garou, as a
> whole, have the tendancy to be dumber than toast. I wouldn't be
> suprised if they did set off a bomb or two.
I can imagine Garou using nuclear weapons as well. We'd need a
hell of a backstory to get into the mindset of the Garou who'd
do such a thing, but I can imagine that being a hell of a story.
(FWIW, I don't mean to imply this -was- the story mentioned in
the thread above, only that I find Garou starting a nuclear war
while attempting to kill Baba Yaga plausible.)
If anyone's interested in starting that off, consider that atomic
spirits are not thralls of the Wyrm, radiation spirits are. The
difference to scientists may be nil, if they believed in them in
the first place, but that's what makes scientists so dangerous.
In a long and torturous Harano, a Tribal elder undergoes painful
fasts, spirit quests, and rites seeking an answer. Repeatedly,
he is shown a light brighter than the sun. Perhaps it was meant
to be a reflection of his own pride, but he takes it to mean that
the atomic spirit he encountered in his youth is the key.
He was a young Russian lieutenant, starving on an Eastern post
after the second World War when he witnessed a nuclear test. In
the aftermath of the atomic blast, he witnessed the atomic spirit
killing taint-laden things that should have died when their time
had come. After his last visionquest, he begins to see Russia as
a sick thing, ridden by a hag, something that a single blast can
kill - with the proper tool. He *knows* radiation spirits are of
the Wyrm. His plan is to purify the warhead, cleanse it of any
radiation spirits, then bind his ally, the atomic nature spirit
to the warhead. It works. The blast is lethal, but cleansing.
Americans were not supposed to get involved. A Russian nuclear
missile exploding on Russian soil is a tragedy, but nothing that
any homid would to start a war over. The Wyrm has other ideas.
It sets off a failsafe counterstrike, closing a few corroded and
forgotten switches, indicating that the blast came from American
ICBMs. A few Russian soldiers still manning missile silos feel
justified for going without pay for the last six months, and in a
swell of vindication over their nagging wives, they follow their
orders.
The nuclear war that follows could have been cleansing, too. The
cities of the WoD are cesspits, and Gaia would have quickly
recovered sterilizing them with a few thousand degrees. But the
warheads in the Russian (perceived) retaliatory strike, then the
American counterstrike, had not been cleansed. That brings us to
the aftermath.
If you don't care for that, well, who says you have to tell your
characters how the world ends? Tell them "Dr. Bloodmoney did it"
and let them look it up.
> > --
> > Ethan Skemp
> > WWGS
-Vis Sierra
Sean Riley
> I'm not familiar with this particular example. It could very well prove
> me wrong, but I'm not familiar with it.
World of Rage, page 59. And I'll lessen my words a bit, 'unofficial
ceasefire between the Get and Furies of Italy' is the best description.
> Jesus Christ is often described as kind and benevolant, taking a look at
> most of your hard core Christians...
Hey, watch it. I'm a hardcore Christian. ;-)
What that is is an example. I've also provided an example of the
Get making a ceasefire for their general advantage. The Get also
do respect intelligence, but an applied intelligence. Someone who
can make good decisions, win battles or protect Caerns, this is
something they respect greatly.
> You're siting the extreme individuals here. If they were all so
> intelligent, they wouldn't have the reputation for being the
> backstabbing bastards that they are.
I'm citing examples. And I think the backstabbing bastards
perception is primarily an OOC thing, it's how they get
played a lot, hence that's how they get seen in games.
I mean, if they were really so distrusted, then people
wouldn't keep going to them for help. And people DO
go to them for help, again, refer to World of Rage,
the Europe chapter for a few examples.
(And sure, one of those two people going to them
for help has probably just done major damage to her
tribe, but that's besides the point. ;-) )
> Ok, site? I'm not aware of this.
King Albrecht, I forget exactly when. But yep, he's
clearly a break away from the old, inbred Fangs. He's
young, healthy, hopeful and wants the Fangs to
display more of those qualities.
> And, you'll agree, that the reason that they are so problematic is that
> the problem of inbreeding has been going on for many generations, enough
> for them to have noticed a few generations ago.
It's a problem, but they've noticed it all right. Some are
moving to fix it, others are worried that the break in
tradition could do damage, which isn't that dumb an
argument. Tradition can be a powerful weapon.
I see the Silver Fangs as a lot like the Catholic Church.
(No offence to any Catholics here intended.) They've got
a lot of tradition behind them, and that makes them very
powerful, but it also makes them rigid and is contributing
to their decline. Many within both groups see the problem,
but trying to fix it has lead to some... tacky results. (See
Dogma for a great satire on this.)
> Ofcourse, I firmly believe that ending the Impregium was a mistake.
> They started it, which was a mistake, but after 1,000 generations or so,
> there was more dissaster in ending it than in continuing it...
Just about every Garou agrees ending the Impergium was not
the best idea in the world. Some would argue starting it was
the mistake, others would argue ending it at all was the
mistake, but no matter which way you look at it, they botched
it. And they know this, and lament the fact. Again, this is a
smart group who made a mistake, not a bunch of morons.
> Those things combine into huge mistakes, that a few level heads looking
> at the issue could say "this goes beyond emotion here, the situation
> can't be solved so simply as killing them all or simply stopping".
> Which, by the way, is why I made sure to deal with a systematic
> deconstruction of the Veil.
OK, I will agree emotion is a big thing for the Garou. Rage and
all that.
But what is it that the rest of the tribes all say about the Stargazers?
They're too 'heady'. And I agree. Humans as a general rule are
too brainy and focused on rationality rather than emotion. I think
one of the biggest problems with the Garou right now is that they're
not trusting their instincts enough, as the Lupus population declines.
Basically, the danger of espousing the ecological and environmental
agenda is that you forget that the Wyrm is real. It becomes a concept,
rather than a dark elder thing. That, of course, is a deadly game.
> Here, I would argue that they're not so much of the Wyld as they are of
> the wilds. The Wyld is constant creation, change, and chaos. The
> Weaver is that which fears change most of all. And, the Red Talons fear
> change, which is the major reason they're dieing out.
The Wyld is an elder thing, a god, or a force, of creation.
Reducing it to a concept is playing the Weavers game of
categorization and codification. The Wyld stands for many
of these things, but it is an entirely seperate entity from them.
And the Red Talons have changed over the years themselves.
Note that in WW:DA, the Red Talons are merely eyeing humanity
with suspicion, and arguing that a few steps could avert disaster.
(Boy oh boy, were they right.) As time went on, and the disasters
pooled up, the Red Talons changed, alright. The methods became
more extreme. They saw desperate need to change the way
things were headed.
I will agree that the Red Talons do harken back to a 'Golden Age'
scenario, which they don't want changed. But it's a Wyld driven,
primal vision of food chains, back and forth, life and death, where
change occurs rapidly and continually. Trees grow and die.
Mountains rise and fall away. This is not the same as the Weaver
oriented vision of unmoving, forever standing skyscrapers and
plastic.
> Most of them are heavily Weaver oriented. A few of them are into urban
> primitives and such, but, for the most part, they think that, by serving
> the Weaver, they can aid Gaia. I think the quote in the 2nd Ed main
> book is something about Gaia surviving better armored in steel with a
> wall of smog around her.
Yeah. It's a curious theory which has never caught on with the other
tribes, and I personally think is likely falling out of favor within the
tribe itself. For now, point, but let's see how Werewolf Revised
treats them.
I wonder if perhaps the City Farmers are garnering a bit more
respect as time goes on. They look more and more feasible
every day.
> And, of course, a lot of this is to be expected with a race of warriors
> based on instinct. They get pissed off easily and act without
> thinking... it's when they do so, as a race, that they get dumber than
> toast, and it is when they get into that hive mentality that they will
> do the dumb-assest shit... rather like human beings who, when they
> gather into groups, tend to be dumber than toast as well.
No problem with this. However...
> I agree. When on an individual level, they can be quite intelligent and
> have all the advantages an quick and able mind can have. But, when they
> hit upon the pack mentality, acting as a group, they get into that
> mistake that makes everybody dumber than toast, which is acting without
> thinking.
I'll be quick to say that 'pack mentality' is perhaps the wrong choice
of words. Garou packs also tend to be fairly smart, effective units
who make good decisions. (Well, depends on the pack, but there's
not a decided shift to 'dumb as toast'.) Why? Because the politics
are relatively straightforward and clean. There's enough lupus
thought to keep the system simplistic (Alpha makes decisions,
anyone can challenge to be alpha,) and enough homid reasoning
to give the system some fairness. (Challenge should meet the
situation, so we need to create some different challenges.) It's a
good, solid, workable unit.
It's when you hit the sept level that it begins to get problematic.
Suddenly you've got positions, claims, overshadings of
responsibility. People start clammoring for places of power
and glory, bad decisions are made to further minor agendas.
Suddenly, it don't look so good.
Then you get multiple septs, or the Garou Nation. Here, the
whole thing begins to fall apart.
Which is why, as I've said before, the Garou Nation won't
avert the Apocalypse. It's a flawed unit. Efforts to
reunite it are, in my opinion, doomed to failure. If the
Apocalypse is averted, it'll be due to independant
packs, working on their own. Heroes will be needed, not
bureaucracies..
> The real problem is that the Garou have this mentality 10fold. Human
> societies have come around with the virtue of deviating from an immoral
> norm, but still have a conformity and a pack instinct. As do the
> wolves, hense, the problems come in spades.
Well, I think I've presented a counterargument, rather than the
lupus part being the problem, it's really the homid part of the
Garou which is awkward. Of course, I could easily argue that
it's the divide between the two which really causes all the
problems, but hey, the first edition players guide does that
already. :-)
> That's why you have at least 3 garou with the gift do it at least 3
> times each. If one of them gets that "something tainted on this one
> comes" just once, this dude isn't the one you tell... Even if it was
> just the McDonalds Burger that they were eating at the time.
And each one you eliminate, and that's an awful lot, makes the
effort less valuable. Plus, it's time consuming, and the Garou
don't have time. For all intents and purposes, the Apocalypse is
here tomorrow. It could be. The Garou don't know, and they
can't gamble on time.
> Such problems can be aleviated by taking the slow approach. The wisest
> of humanity, that is with the enviromentalist cause, first. Then the
> second wisest. You slowly get the ball rolling.
Again, time isn't on the Garou's side. It's on the Wyrms. It
has the advantage and can press it, and if the Garou let
their guard down to try a long term solution, you bet it
will.
> The GlassWalkers can expose their illegal and immoral practices simply
> by handing a Corax a cam-corder.
Which is countered by them buying the tape off the nearest
TV station for more money than they'll make out of the
advertising and controversy. Well within Pentex's ability,
and they'd do it.
> Then make the challenges those other than of battle. Riddle contests,
> contests of intelligence, tactics, etc.
Which plays into the monkey games. Again, not something the
lupus are happy about. Now, the garou lupus might handle it,
it's something they deal with on a regular basis with Garou
packs. But trying to get the lupus kinfolk to deal with it?
Much tougher.
> And, in the Kinfolk Book, they told tale of a Lupus Kinfolk that lead a
> pack for 10 years, and did so leading, not telling people where to fight
> then sitting back and moving the pieces. That is leadership the garou
> could use.
Agreed. It can happen, but it's something tricky to implement, and
difficult to get working on a regular basis.
> The best ideas often aren't.
If they're not feasible, they can be great theoretical ideas, but the
Garou need practicality. They need things that'll work, and quickly.
> They're not going to do it. If the Aboriginal people suddenly became a
> force that could, possibly, turn the tides of a centuries long war in
> the Australian's favor, you bet you'ld see some soldiers coming with
> writs of "here's your land back if you help us not die".
Right. Sadly, I think that's true, and I believe Reconciliation is a
doomed if noble concept. It's time to abandon it and for the
Aboriginal people to simply demand their own nation. It's a
radical step, but they've got plenty of models to base it on.
We're one of the few countries not to have internal nations.
> It'll take some good speakers, too, like that one in the Mokole` book
> that reminded them that the Mokole` and the garou interbred and worked
> together once. But, the "I offer my life in appology" would be a
> beginning that the garou sorely need in order to turn the tides of the
> Appocolypse.
It'd take really, really good diplomats. And, here's the question: Can
the Garou afford to lose those diplomats to suicide? I'd say no. The
Garou can't afford to lose anyone.
Of course, since you can't send one over there to die, you lose three
in the battle with the bete. Screwed both ways.
> Who said a garou only needs one partner? Instinct on both human and
> wolf side lends to multiple partners throughout the lifespan.
Well, the female Garou don't exactly have the option. As for the men,
remember that Garou society does and always has rewarded life long
mates. See the renown chart for an example of this.
Besides. The Black Spiral Dancers make a point of grabbing tons
of mates, usually without consent. Such a program for the Garou,
even relying on consent (which is tricky, difficult to get and again,
time consuming. Remember, we're dealing with attempted
conception here, which takes longer than a one night stand,) reaks
too much of what they're doing.
> Easily enough, considering that young wolves often leave their packs,
> sometimes to start new ones.
>
> Also, mind you, that the Lupus Garou could also take part in starting
> said packs. A female Lupus being the Female Alpha, be a good way to
> start the breeding stock as well.
Possibly, but then you're losing a Garou from the fight, again.
It's a question of resource management. If you're willing to
gamble that the Garou have maybe fifty years or more
left, this kind of policy has merits.
But if you assume it could happen this year, not such a
great idea.
> These are wolves, they don't think in issues of "traditional grounds".
> They think in issues of territory, which not all of them have.
True.
> This is assuming that you're bringing all the wolves into the umbra.
> I'm just talking about bringing, or starting, a few new packs in select
> places in the umbra. A few generations later, you'll have strong wolves
> from which gaoru will come.
But the Garou don't have generations to spare.
Time is one of the big reasons the Garou are seen as stupid, IMO.
They don't have enough time for sensible, rational plans, and
so drastic measures become the standard method of action. If
those fail, they fail badly.
This doesn't explain bone-dumb stuff like the War of Rage,
which was dumb-as-toast, but it explains more recent stuff.
> *much* smaller version, remember. The BSDs and other wyrmies wouldn't
> sense a new Caern a formin'.
You can't be sure of that, unless you spend massive time and energy
on developing the new rite. Again, time is the problem.
> I'm *not* talking about creating new caerns, just breaking the gauntlet
> down a notch or two. there is one huge, mother-trucking, ass the size
> of Jupitor, difference.
So how, then, is this lowered gauntlet preserved? Caerns are
carefully managed, looked after areas, whose condition is
critical to their function. (It's enough of a concern that there's
an official spot for it, the Keeper of the Land.) I daresay these
areas of artificially weakened gauntlet would last for maybe a
few weeks to a few months, then fall back to normal.
> Well, out of ignorance as to the vast ecological reprocusions and also
> thinking that those in the blast would die instantly, without suffering.
> The garou could just have sat down and thought for a minute or two to
> realize the huge, mother-trucking, blocking out the sun and the moon,
> problems that would arize from A. Begining the Impregium,
Nothing like this had ever been done before. The Garou had no
frame of reference. And whilst some Garou did feel it would be
problematic, others thought it was a good solution.
And the juries still out on whether it was a bad decision or not.
It never got completed.
> B. Ending it after waiting too long,
Same thing. There were now some problems arising from the
Impergium itself, and the Garou had the choice of either
ending it, or working through the problems somehow.
Without knowing exactly what those problems were, it's
difficult to judge how bad a decision it was.
We do know the effects of this. Stuff like the Veil and
the Delirium kicked in, and added fuel to humanities
genocidal fire.
> C. The War of Rage.
Dumbass decision all around. Still, the books which have
looked at it most heavily have all been Breed books, so
the Garou are naturally coming out looking the worst
in all of them. The Silver Record, whilst also deploring
the War, shows the kind of stuff which caused it.
Doesn't make it better, just makes it clear how it
happened and what they were thinking at the time.
> D. The Second War of Rage,
Dumbass, failing to look at past mistakes, and seeming
damn essential at the time. Still, of all the decisions the
Garou have made, this one qualifies as the worst.
> E. the Bunyip dissaster.
Again, this was just bad. But it wasn't just the Garou,
remember. The humans had as much a hand in killing
the Bunyip's kinfolk, both human and thylaccine.
Besides, I could put together a really easy theory
showing how damned Weaverish the Bunyip
really were. It's not hard to see the Garou thinking the
Bunyip were the next Black Spiral Dancers, and
trying to nip the problem in the bud.
And usually, nipping something in the bud is a good
idea. It's just a good idea to make sure that you're
nipping a weed, not a flower.
> But, that's what you expect when you create a race of warriors that gets
> easily pissed off and thinks in packs.
It's what you get when you have a people bound to a failing
purpose. Let's face it, you look through the entire history of
the Garou, and they've really been fighting an uphill battle.
Sure, they've made it harder on themselves, but to some
degree they're doing a lot better than they could be doing.
Things could be a lot worse for them.
As an example, again, see the 7th Generation victory.
An unbridled, out and out success story. The Garou do
have some success, and do make some smart decisions.
Then again, they also make some hideous decisions.
World of Rage has one downright, out and out, bad
decision.
> It does when you consider that the only ones that ever take a moment to
> sit and think about what the fuck their doing are the ones that A.
> nobody listens to, and B. hardly fight at all.
And it has to be said, B is often responsible for A.
Cheers,
Sean Riley
> In advance, sorry for splitting this up like this, but my computer
> wouldn't let me post the thing whole.
No problem. I put it back together again for mine.
> Thanks for the site... I'll see if I can get a look at that.
>
> As for my reason for that issue is that they are ignoring a buttload of
> Wyrm right in front of them in order to focus only on women's issues.
> Did you know that, if a woman takes her children to a shelter for
> battered women and one of her boys happens to be 13, he won't be allowed
> in?
Didn't know that, and I agree, that sucks royally.
> That's a part of the issue.... If a
> woman has a battering husband, not only get her out of that, also rip
> the batterer's dick off and choke him to death with it. I have no room
> in my affections for bullies, and family abusers are up there with
> rapists on that scale.
You had me right up until this point. The biggest problem I have
with the Garou as a whole is their overly violent solutions to
problems, and that's exactly the kind of attitude I deplore. Violent
solutions only beget more violence, and looking at abuse through
an angry lens only increases problems. Call be a bleeding heart
liberal. But the kind of stats on the childhoods of child abusers,
of wife beaters, and of so many other groups relates one clear
truth: Violence begets violence, and this isn't a simple problem,
it's a social cycle.
Our society won't get any better until we start to try and
sympathise with a child abuser. *waits for the flood on that call*
> Excuse me, most of those I've known have grown entirely to the opposite
> of kind, loving, and benevolant upon hearing that I'm an atheist. On
> another example, if you look to the right newsgroups, you'll find
> stories of atheists that have gotten black eyes because their
> superchristian friends decided that such tactics would be the best to
> get them to "see the light".
I know, and that bullshit angers me just as much. That's wrong,
no question from me. It's just that you also get a lot of strong,
church-going Christians who spend their time instead working
charity causes, and somehow talking about these guys causes
people to gag about 'how sweet it is'. You get a second group
who are just regular, normal people who try to quietly live a
Christian life, but they're boring. As a result, all that's ever
heard about the church is the bad stuff.
That pisses me off, too.
> But, these guys are eager for it. They all want to die in battle so
> they can get into Valhalla. Well, folks, being ready to kill a bane by
> choking it with your corpse may be one thing, but let's try a little
> something else first.
True, and there are a lot of (But not all,) Get who think likethat. But
it's common sense to not lose members flippantly, and the Garou
know that. For an example, again, check the renown chart. Death
in battle is glorified, but so is bringing home the whole pack unharmed.
> That's what it says in the book. It literally says that the amount of
> trust one gives to a Shadow Lord is inverse in relation to the number of
> Shadow Lords in the area. And, if you look at the 2nd ed (i don't have
> revised) mainbook's comic book, there you have 'em being assholes as
> much as usual.
(That could as easily have been a Silver Fang, who are seen
as honest if little else, but I'll refrain. The real point of that
display was pride and arrogance, not powerplaying :-) )
And yes, but the Shadow Lords are also now #1 in
Europe. (As of World of Rage.) From what I understand,
they're doing a good job. Perhaps, indeed, better than
the Silver Fangs. They might be seen as manipulative and
deceitful, but they're also effective, clever and pragmatic.
> Inexperience, desperation, or a combonation of the two.
And again, because they get things done. You see more
people going to the Lords for help than the Fangs, these
days.
> Well, yay for King Albrecht, then. Wow... he can get some better blood
> in without actually betraying the traditions of only bringing in
> greatness. It's just that they've been describing greatness as
> "inbredbastard that was born into great power and didn't really have to
> work to attain it" for so long.
And it's a problem, and some of the Fangs are realising this. They're
working on it. :-)
> Tradition can be a powerful weapon... of the Weaver's. They're falling
> into the Weaver's trap of fear of change as much as the Red Talons are.
I'll buy the Weaver argument for the Fangs, although I still disagree
with you on the Talons.
> Seen it, can't really believe that anybody found that movie offensive to
> Christians, it was a very "pro god" movie at the end there, even though
> God punished two angels for being more compasionate than he was.
It was actually very conservative. *nods* Mostly just about faith and
how the general trappings around God aren't as important as the
central message of brotherhood and love.>
> Well... every Lupus. Most Homids are too close to the issue to see it
> that clearly.
I think you'd be surprised. Often homids actually find themselves
more hateful toward humanity than the lupus, because they
remember what THEY used to do. An example of this was in the
1st Ed players guide section on the city.
> They made the mistake the first time, because the Red Talons were in
> such a froth that they killed everybody.
The Red Talons were far from being the only tribe behind the
Impergium.
> The second time, because the CoG's played on their sympathies.
The Children of Gaia were far from the only tribe who wereresponsible for it
ending. :-)
> This all goes into the issue that, if
> they would take a moment to think, just for a minute, they might see
> that there are problems that go well beyond the immediate involved.
No, it's not. There were real, solid arguments for why the Impergium
should have been enacted. Look around now, the answers all
around us. There were solid arguments against it, too, and I can't
see why these wouldn't have been considered. But the pros
outweighed the cons, at least in the eyes of the Garou, and it went
ahead.
> You think so? You would be wrong. You get humans into a group large
> enough, and it only takes the slightest emotional manipulation to get
> them working up into a froth enough to bring the soundest equal rights
> supporter into a race hatred. (BTW, that's what I mean by pack
> mentality, not the mentality of garou packs)
OK, cool. Just making sure on the use of words, here. And yes,
that's true, but even us at our most savage don't hit the everyday
level of instinct a wolf has. That's what I mean by being 'too
heady', we run on rationality.
> That's their stupidity *now*. The War of Rage, the Impregium, it's
> disasterous end, the Bunyip, and the second War of Rage were all
> examples of what happened when they acted immediately on their emotions
> without taking a moment to think about it.
You've no proof the War of Rage didn't have reasonable causes,
again, Silver Record discusses this somewhat. The Impergium
DID have reasonable goals, and it may well have been the best
decision. Conversely, we don't know what might have happened
had the Impergium never ended, so maybe it wasn't a bad
decision either. And the second War of Rage made sense to the
Garou then, even if it looks dumbass to us.
> I would argue that fighting the "dark elder thing" and not fighting the
> inherent concept has been the problem that brought us to this point.
> "dark elder thing" is easy to see. Concept, you have to look for and be
> ever vigilante against.
Disagree. Ignoring the greater effects of the Wyrm has been a great
problem of the Garou, one which has only recently become a major
concern. But to ever reduce the Wyrm to a concept denies it
intelligence, organisation, and cunning. All of these the Wyrm has, and
uses potently.
> The single issue here is their *fear* of change and their refusal to
> change. The Wyld loathes stasis, it goes against the Wyld's nature to
> be the same thing for any period of time. Consider that, by the Wyld's
> own nature of insiting change and differentiation in everything, an
> infinity of balance is nigh impossible. So, their pristine nature was
> doomed to be paved over, only to sprout new life again.
True, but the Red Talons don't want a static, unchanging situation.
Well, some might, but generally the major point here is that the
Red Talons want a /different/ situation to the one here now. That
they harken to the past and how the world looked then doesn't
nessecarily mean they'd have a problem with that world changing
in another direction.
> I would suggest that this is a change of degree rather than nature.
Yes, but that's an important show of changing stance. Plus, the
Red Talons rose in reaction to humanities activities, you have
to consider they'll be a bit preoccupied with it.
> No, but it is a mistake to assume that, because they're fighting for a
> true ideal that they themselves are not quite tainted with that which
> they fight against.
The Red Talons maybe don't look at themselves as hard as they
could do, and maybe are a bit quick to place blame elsewhere.
But they've got a point, and their vision of the world isn't a
bad one, by a Gaian standpoint. (It is by a human standpoint,
but hey.)
> I hope they get a little smarter about it. But, they show far too much
> faith in a Weaver that's obviously leading the Wyrm's panicked
> thrashings to where he wants them to thrash.
Not nessecarily true. Again referring you to World of Rage, check
out the whole section on the Eurohub. This the the Weaver
desperately trying to kill off both the Wyld and the Wyrm for it's
own benefit. That the Wyrm is having more success breaking in
is besides the point.
> You see *they've* got a portion of the right idea here. They're not
> refusing all change, they're doing what they can to keep the Wyld strong
> in the midst of the change. Bring the Wyld to the cities, and not even
> the Weaver can stop it. But, they don't wish to destroy the Machine.
> Even they're missing the obvious truth in that the Weaver leads and the
> Wyrm follows.
Again, this is arguable. The Weaver stands to lose as much as the Wyld
if the Wyrm triumphs, quite plainly. If the Wyrm destroys all, that leaves
no room for the Wyld or the Weaver. And insane or no, she's got
some kind of plan. Perhaps. It's all very difficult to kind of judge these
things with primal forces of nature and all.
> No, not the mentality of packs, but their mentality when they get into
> large enough groups. This works the same with humans. The larger the
> group, the lower the intelligence of any individual. They'll believe
> more, be more manipulatable, and, all in all, be dumber for being in the
> largest of groups.
Fine, but we've ultimately got to be arguing in relative terms here. If
Garou are about as smart as humans (Which seems the be the level
here,) then they're generally par for the course. You could get smarter
groups, I suppose, but they're not that bad.
They've got nothing on Changelings, I'll tell you that. "Hmm, I exist
because of dreams. Hey, that mortal pissed me off! I'll give him
nightmares." And commoner Changelings have got didly-squat
on the Sidhe, whose string of bad decisions can be seen
throughout the books. With apparently a handy compilation album
in Redcaps.
> The wolves are just an illustraition of the pack instinct, which grows
> to work against itself, in the Garou.
The pack instinct works FOR the Garou. It creates brotherhood and
fosters a healthy, constructive pride. There's a reason Ronin are so
distrusted, it's like you've disowned your brothers, sisters and parents.
What doesn't work is when the Garou move /beyond/ the pack....
Wait, just realised. You're not talking Packs, you're talking packs.
Can we choose some different words here?
At any rate, that's not pack instinct which is the problem. It's
infighting which is the problem, and the Garou have that in
spades.
> If you look closely, the same happens with humans. We've come into such
> large groupings, that, within the groupings, groupings grow to take up
> arms against whatever enemies they can find. This is why we have shit
> like gangs and the KKK.
You can't sum up the KKK to simple psychology. There's history to
work with, economic issues, and yes, psychology. But it's part of a
larger puzzle. In fact, I'd say that's one of the themes of Werewolf.
The Garou have a tendency to apply simplistic solutions to a complex
problem, and they don't work. For all the blood and gore, the fact
that the Garou are not winning is an indictment of such material. It's
not working.
> They can't gamble on its lack either. They've been doing that for the
> past few decades. You're working in celestial time, here. It could be
> tomorrow, or it could be in the next half century. Either way, you
> can't count on the Apocalypse happening tomorrow.
True. But it's an open discussion as to which is more likely, and
what's the best solution therefore. If you talked to one Garou
(Such as the downright Weberian Lisa Tholmson, one of my
characters,) she'll definitely argue for long term plans involving
intelligence gathering on the spiritual dimensions of the enemy.
She'll point out the Garou still really don't know who they're
fighting.
But if you ask Sami Gabar, she'll point out that that kind of
stuff is what should have happened fifty years ago. It's too
late now. And if we send Garou out to do that research,
we don't have them here for when the Apocalypse hits.
It's bad tactics.
> Simply taken care of by owning a private station.
Which needs a licence, and if you check out TV and radio
stations, they sew up their own loose ends in such matters.
And if you broadcast without a licence, then Pentex can
shut them down with little legal ramifications. (I think.) And
sue them for defamation.
> Ok, challenges of leadership. "He who can lead their pack to goal *X*
> wins." I should also remind you that the Lupus garou are as good as any
> human at riddles, somewhat better for their having not so rigid a view
> on the issue.
But you've got no guarentee they'd agree. Again, the mentality here
is that if they feel they can't best the garou in a challenge, they
won't take it. Artificially levering the odds won't work. Or, at least,
there's a good chance it won't.
> I'm not talking about even implimenting it. Not restricting it woudl be
> a good start.
The restrictions aren't all artificial though. This is the problem. It goes
into the way the breeds think.
> Um, dude, Native American Land is soveriegn and the US Army isn't
> allowed to go there without the consent of the Native Americans living
> there
Yep. It's still a more aggressive strategy than reconcilliation, and that's
working so damn well, so it's the next logical strategy.
> If they can't afford to lose anyone, they're screwed, because then they
> couldn't afford to fight the wyrm because somebody could die. Well,
> excuse me if I find that to be a load. It's a risky maneuver. But, the
> gain will greatly outweigh the cost if they can get on speaking terms
> with the other Changing Breeds again.
It's a matter of how much worth it is. Is it worth the Garou to get the
Bete back on side? Answer, possibly. But is it worth it to Gaia? No,
it's not. Because the bete are still fighting the Wyrm. Sure, there's
battles with the Garou as well, and that's a problem. But just
because the bete fight with the Garou doesn't mean it's a worst
case scenario.
> Send one in. Also note, he's not killing himself, he's giving the other
> Changing Breeds the right to kill him without challenge. The Ratkin,
> who I wouldn't involve in this anyway as insane as they are, would
> definately kill the dude. But, the Gurahl wouldn't. The Mokole` might.
> The Bastet possibly, but it wouldn't be necessary for them, the Garou
> and Bastet already do have some individuals on speaking terms.
Actually, I'd give the Ratkin higher odds of not killing the guy than
the Mokole. The Ratkin would find a better way to do more
damage. I dunno, infect him with something then send him home.
The Mokole, meanwhile, have too many bad memories, and too
much pain left. They'd toast him.
> If you get the Gurahl and the Mokole` on speaking terms with the Gaoru,
> you've made a stride for Gaia that's more important than the Rite of
> Caern Building.
The Gurahl are nearly dead anyway. And the actual battle between
them and the Garou is minimal, as I understand it. It's best to simply
let them do their works as they choose to do so.
> A. Temporarily lose a few female garou from the fight.
>
> B. Wolf generations are much faster than human ones. They reproduce
> every year. This can be a relatively fast way to populate certain
> realms of the Umbra.
True. *nods* That's something I forgot to consider. Point.
> Rumors, for one. Artists. Hold a rally. Invite the local wiccan
> groups to do some of their rituals.
Do these things actually lower the Gauntlet? They may do,but I don't think
they do...
Now, there ARE ways to lower the Gauntlet, and good,
solid ways. Demolish buildings, build parkland. Head
into the Umbra and start wreaking a few pattern spiders
and their webs. Both of these should work, I think, but
they're both damned hard to do. The first is a political
nightmare. The second is a lethal prospect in many
areas.
Again, I think the big point is that there are no easy
answers.
> Of course, Magi are usually able.
Yeah, and the Garou are on great terms with Mages. ;-)
> When you get the spirits active in the area, that will have an affect on
> the issue.
But which spirits come? Wyld spirits? In the city, from where?
More likely you get Weaver spirits, and the Gauntlet thickens
again, or worse, Banes.
> They had no frame of reference? The fucking Wyrm is a frame of
> reference. It's trying to kill everything, and what is their opinion of
> it? Would they just forgive it if it suddenly stopped and said "I'm
> sorry"? *NO*.
The Wyrm is not a frame of reference. Trying to destroy everything
is a hell of a lot different to attempting to control, not even remove,
a specifically damaging part of a system. In fact, that was the
Wyrm's original task, the one the Garou had no problem with.
> The problem was that they were just too stupid. Once they started it,
> they couldn't end it. It's not like you can always go back and do the
> right thing. It's a river and they were trying to unbreak a damn. It
> just don't work.
No, the problem is that it was, and still is, a very complicated, difficult
situation. It can't be denied, humans are the most damaging force to
Gaia there is. Putting population caps is an ugly, hideous solution, but
it might have worked. We don't know.
And, as something to consider, why did the Garou decide to end it?
This isn't very well covered, but it can't just be because the Children
of Gaia pleaded them to stop. They pleaded with them not to
start. No, something else had to have changed in the equation, and
that something may have been a real reason to end it. Again, since
the Garou haven't gotten to see what would have happened had
they continued it, it's impossible to say if it was the better
decision or not.
> Well, if I remember correctly, it went ass such. "What, the Garou
> aren't telling us how to raise the dead? We'll kill everybody who isn't
> us!" That is dumber than toast.
Actually, the story in the Silver Record about it follows a pact
between the Talons and the Striders, I believe, to take down a
Khan who clearly was overstepping his bounds and becoming
downright tyranical. This alliance ended up becoming a critical
force in the War, and did a lot of damage, but the reason the
alliance was formed was actually a pretty fair reason.
> The humans were at least ignorant. The Garou have no such excuse.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone attack the Garou on
the grounds that they're not ignorant. ;-) I've gotta admit, I'm
stumped for a reply. Either I argue that they ARE ignorant,
which plays to a negative stereotype, or I argue they're not
and somehow try to press on with the argument.
Attempting the latter, the Australian Government had a
Commission into Aboriginal deaths in custody, and the
report which followed read like a blueprint for fixing about
90% of problems in Aboriginal society today. Something like
330 reccomendations or so. About 60, I think, got picked
up, less got completed.
The Australian Government cannot be accused of ignorance.
The evidence was there. They knew there was a problem.
But to follow through on the reccomendations would have
meant sacrificing a lot of the governments power in Aboriginal
affairs, and they weren't willing to do that. This isn't stupidity,
it's a mixture of greed, fear, and misplaced paternalism.
Just because the Garou are not acting on possessed knowledge
doesn't make them stupid.
> Thanks to the Bunyip and their kinfolk, an entire second Umbra came
> about. Weaverish? I think not.
Sure, but this is the tribe belonging to a people who, according to
some theories, turned most of Australia's rainforrest into desert.
Firestick farming was an amazingly successful hunting and gathering
technique, but the effects it had on the environment were hideous.
It destroyed many plant species that required long term cycles,
and it made for a proliferation of trees like Eucyalyptus, which
I understand are absolute hogs for resources.
If the Garou knew what the Aboriginal people were doing to
the land, well, a few misplaced words, a mistake here or there,
and suddenly the Bunyip look like downright threats.
> Yah, but they could be a lot better if they had brain one in their
> collective skull. Same thing with the Library at Alexandria... you know
> how much better the standard of living could have been raised if they
> had used the information in there instead of burning it because it
> didn't worship Allah?
Don't know the story here, so I'll refrain from comment.
> Then let's hear about 'em. All through the books, we hear about the
> Garou's dumbest and most dissasterous mistakes. They should get the
> good stuff in there.
I will agree on this. We do have some of their good stuff, though.
The Silver Record, for example, has a number of stories. Evil Comes to
the Mocking Tree is a great tale of unlikely groups coming together and
working well. The City of Maggots is a straight out slaughterfest, but
one that showed what the Garou can do when it all goes right. The Fall
of the False Prince shows a tale of great leadership and sacrifice. And,
of course, King Albrecht's Crusade Against the Seventh Generation
is a modern day, unqualified success.
Now, none of these quite surpass the sheer damage the mistakes the
Garou have made did. But that's the way it is with a lot of things,
all the good stuff that takes years to do is unravelled in a single
fell swoop, especially in the World of Darkness.. The Garou are
nothing special in this regard.
And, to backtrack on everything I've said, it's REALLY easy, and
my preferred method, to show the Garou as, yes, dumber than
toast, with individual packs fighting through the hideous displays
of bigotry and pride and power mongering. Or even darker
still, to tell tales of anti-heroes who wreck the whole thing with
their own inflexibility.
But it's equally easy to tell a tale of doomed heroes, who are
flawed, and who have made bad decisions, certainly. But also
ones who made the best decision they could make given their
resources and situation at the time. That's not a hard tale to
tell for Werewolf, and it's appropriate to the mood and
themes as any other.
Which for me, is the whole point.
Cheers,
Sean
Sean Riley
> In advance, sorry for splitting this up like this, but my computer
> wouldn't let me post the thing whole.
No problem. I put it back together again for mine.
> Thanks for the site... I'll see if I can get a look at that.
>
> As for my reason for that issue is that they are ignoring a buttload of
> Wyrm right in front of them in order to focus only on women's issues.
> Did you know that, if a woman takes her children to a shelter for
> battered women and one of her boys happens to be 13, he won't be allowed
> in?
Didn't know that, and I agree, that sucks royally.
> That's a part of the issue.... If a
> woman has a battering husband, not only get her out of that, also rip
> the batterer's dick off and choke him to death with it. I have no room
> in my affections for bullies, and family abusers are up there with
> rapists on that scale.
You had me right up until this point. The biggest problem I have
with the Garou as a whole is their overly violent solutions to
problems, and that's exactly the kind of attitude I deplore. Violent
solutions only beget more violence, and looking at abuse through
an angry lens only increases problems. Call be a bleeding heart
liberal. But the kind of stats on the childhoods of child abusers,
of wife beaters, and of so many other groups relates one clear
truth: Violence begets violence, and this isn't a simple problem,
it's a social cycle.
Our society won't get any better until we start to try and
sympathise with a child abuser. *waits for the flood on that call*
> Excuse me, most of those I've known have grown entirely to the opposite
> of kind, loving, and benevolant upon hearing that I'm an atheist. On
> another example, if you look to the right newsgroups, you'll find
> stories of atheists that have gotten black eyes because their
> superchristian friends decided that such tactics would be the best to
> get them to "see the light".
I know, and that bullshit angers me just as much. That's wrong,
no question from me. It's just that you also get a lot of strong,
church-going Christians who spend their time instead working
charity causes, and somehow talking about these guys causes
people to gag about 'how sweet it is'. You get a second group
who are just regular, normal people who try to quietly live a
Christian life, but they're boring. As a result, all that's ever
heard about the church is the bad stuff.
That pisses me off, too.
> But, these guys are eager for it. They all want to die in battle so
> they can get into Valhalla. Well, folks, being ready to kill a bane by
> choking it with your corpse may be one thing, but let's try a little
> something else first.
True, and there are a lot of (But not all,) Get who think likethat. But
it's common sense to not lose members flippantly, and the Garou
know that. For an example, again, check the renown chart. Death
in battle is glorified, but so is bringing home the whole pack unharmed.
> That's what it says in the book. It literally says that the amount of
> trust one gives to a Shadow Lord is inverse in relation to the number of
> Shadow Lords in the area. And, if you look at the 2nd ed (i don't have
> revised) mainbook's comic book, there you have 'em being assholes as
> much as usual.
(That could as easily have been a Silver Fang, who are seen
as honest if little else, but I'll refrain. The real point of that
display was pride and arrogance, not powerplaying :-) )
And yes, but the Shadow Lords are also now #1 in
Europe. (As of World of Rage.) From what I understand,
they're doing a good job. Perhaps, indeed, better than
the Silver Fangs. They might be seen as manipulative and
deceitful, but they're also effective, clever and pragmatic.
> Inexperience, desperation, or a combonation of the two.
And again, because they get things done. You see more
people going to the Lords for help than the Fangs, these
days.
> Well, yay for King Albrecht, then. Wow... he can get some better blood
> in without actually betraying the traditions of only bringing in
> greatness. It's just that they've been describing greatness as
> "inbredbastard that was born into great power and didn't really have to
> work to attain it" for so long.
And it's a problem, and some of the Fangs are realising this. They're
working on it. :-)
> Tradition can be a powerful weapon... of the Weaver's. They're falling
> into the Weaver's trap of fear of change as much as the Red Talons are.
I'll buy the Weaver argument for the Fangs, although I still disagree
with you on the Talons.
> Seen it, can't really believe that anybody found that movie offensive to
> Christians, it was a very "pro god" movie at the end there, even though
> God punished two angels for being more compasionate than he was.
It was actually very conservative. *nods* Mostly just about faith and
how the general trappings around God aren't as important as the
central message of brotherhood and love.>
> Well... every Lupus. Most Homids are too close to the issue to see it
> that clearly.
I think you'd be surprised. Often homids actually find themselves
more hateful toward humanity than the lupus, because they
remember what THEY used to do. An example of this was in the
1st Ed players guide section on the city.
> They made the mistake the first time, because the Red Talons were in
> such a froth that they killed everybody.
The Red Talons were far from being the only tribe behind the
Impergium.
> The second time, because the CoG's played on their sympathies.
The Children of Gaia were far from the only tribe who wereresponsible for it
ending. :-)
> This all goes into the issue that, if
> they would take a moment to think, just for a minute, they might see
> that there are problems that go well beyond the immediate involved.
No, it's not. There were real, solid arguments for why the Impergium
should have been enacted. Look around now, the answers all
around us. There were solid arguments against it, too, and I can't
see why these wouldn't have been considered. But the pros
outweighed the cons, at least in the eyes of the Garou, and it went
ahead.
> You think so? You would be wrong. You get humans into a group large
> enough, and it only takes the slightest emotional manipulation to get
> them working up into a froth enough to bring the soundest equal rights
> supporter into a race hatred. (BTW, that's what I mean by pack
> mentality, not the mentality of garou packs)
OK, cool. Just making sure on the use of words, here. And yes,
that's true, but even us at our most savage don't hit the everyday
level of instinct a wolf has. That's what I mean by being 'too
heady', we run on rationality.
> That's their stupidity *now*. The War of Rage, the Impregium, it's
> disasterous end, the Bunyip, and the second War of Rage were all
> examples of what happened when they acted immediately on their emotions
> without taking a moment to think about it.
You've no proof the War of Rage didn't have reasonable causes,
again, Silver Record discusses this somewhat. The Impergium
DID have reasonable goals, and it may well have been the best
decision. Conversely, we don't know what might have happened
had the Impergium never ended, so maybe it wasn't a bad
decision either. And the second War of Rage made sense to the
Garou then, even if it looks dumbass to us.
> I would argue that fighting the "dark elder thing" and not fighting the
> inherent concept has been the problem that brought us to this point.
> "dark elder thing" is easy to see. Concept, you have to look for and be
> ever vigilante against.
Disagree. Ignoring the greater effects of the Wyrm has been a great
problem of the Garou, one which has only recently become a major
concern. But to ever reduce the Wyrm to a concept denies it
intelligence, organisation, and cunning. All of these the Wyrm has, and
uses potently.
> The single issue here is their *fear* of change and their refusal to
> change. The Wyld loathes stasis, it goes against the Wyld's nature to
> be the same thing for any period of time. Consider that, by the Wyld's
> own nature of insiting change and differentiation in everything, an
> infinity of balance is nigh impossible. So, their pristine nature was
> doomed to be paved over, only to sprout new life again.
True, but the Red Talons don't want a static, unchanging situation.
Well, some might, but generally the major point here is that the
Red Talons want a /different/ situation to the one here now. That
they harken to the past and how the world looked then doesn't
nessecarily mean they'd have a problem with that world changing
in another direction.
> I would suggest that this is a change of degree rather than nature.
Yes, but that's an important show of changing stance. Plus, the
Red Talons rose in reaction to humanities activities, you have
to consider they'll be a bit preoccupied with it.
> No, but it is a mistake to assume that, because they're fighting for a
> true ideal that they themselves are not quite tainted with that which
> they fight against.
The Red Talons maybe don't look at themselves as hard as they
could do, and maybe are a bit quick to place blame elsewhere.
But they've got a point, and their vision of the world isn't a
bad one, by a Gaian standpoint. (It is by a human standpoint,
but hey.)
> I hope they get a little smarter about it. But, they show far too much
> faith in a Weaver that's obviously leading the Wyrm's panicked
> thrashings to where he wants them to thrash.
Not nessecarily true. Again referring you to World of Rage, check
out the whole section on the Eurohub. This the the Weaver
desperately trying to kill off both the Wyld and the Wyrm for it's
own benefit. That the Wyrm is having more success breaking in
is besides the point.
> You see *they've* got a portion of the right idea here. They're not
> refusing all change, they're doing what they can to keep the Wyld strong
> in the midst of the change. Bring the Wyld to the cities, and not even
> the Weaver can stop it. But, they don't wish to destroy the Machine.
> Even they're missing the obvious truth in that the Weaver leads and the
> Wyrm follows.
Again, this is arguable. The Weaver stands to lose as much as the Wyld
> you've made a stride for Gaia that's more important than the Rite of
> Caern Building.
The Gurahl are nearly dead anyway. And the actual battle between
Cheers,
Sean
--
Mant
dsho...@aol.com (DShomshak) wrote:
> In article <8pr4ru$bdk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mant <man...@my-deja.com>
writes:
>
> >> have causes worth striving for -- *real,* down-to-earth causes, not
> >> abstractions like "paradigms."
> >
> >Yeah, all that technology and science the Technocracy pushed for its
> >paradgim wasn't real at all. Paradigms aren't abstract at *all*
becuase
> >to a Mages they *are* real and when they are pushing them they make
> >them real.
> >
> >A Chorister isn't trying to push an abstract paradgim, he is trying
to
> >get people to beleive in God and live thier lives accordingly. A
> >Dreamspeaker trying to get his tribe to hold onto the old ways while
> >surviving in the modern world, a Progenitor trying to cure cancer.
> >
> >In fact I would say one thing every edition of Mage has really missed
> >is that Mages live their paradgims, you cannot seperate the down-to
> >earth from the paradgim its all part of the same thing to the Mage.
> >Everything they do encrouages it, even if they aren't trying . They
> >don't sit around saying "I'll try and get people to beleive X", they
> >damn well believe X themselves and act accordingly, be that helping
one
> >person or trying to tell everyone about X.
>
impression
> I got from earlier editions and supplements, however, was that the
Ascension
> War was fought over little more than power. We may have been *told*
that the
> Traditions espoused this, that and the other particular goals, but we
didn't
> *see* that Chorister, that Dreamspeaker or (for that matter) that
Progenitor --
> at least, not nearly as much as we should.
>
> So I still hold that *as far as the books showed us,* the Ascension
War was
> fought for abstract, unreal goals. Mages may have talked about
paradigms but
> they didn't do damn-all to show the truth of their beliefs through
their lives
> and actions. With luck, Jess will bring us supplements that show
mages who
> promote their paradigms by living them, not by fighting people who
disagree
> with them.
OK I'll agree with this. All we saw was Mages killing each other,
nothing about how you actually change the paradgim either locally or
globabally.
I think the "end" of the war though was overkill, and badly handled
IMHO. Its now gone too far the other way. What we need is a good
balance of Mages living their paradgim, Mages working on a big scale to
get their paradigm to the masses and, of course, Mages killing each
other :)
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Mant
di...@san.rr.com wrote:
<snip>
> I especially like this model for the Garou: You are going to die.
That's
> not even an issue. The only choice is whether you die hiding like a
coward
> or fighting for the wrong side, and allow the Wyrm to destroy
everything,
> or die fighting to the last, and with your sacrifice destroy the Wyrm
and
> make room for a better, more perfect world (without death) to follow.
Yes. After all in an ideal world the Triat would be balanced and Gaia
would have no more need of any chagning breed. The Garou are fighting
for a world in which they would not only be obolete but their exitence
would be a bad thing.
> I think I prefer the Hindu approach for Mages. The universe will be
> destoyed *again*, and then reborn as a perfect world *again* which
will
> then degenerate slowly over four great ages until it's destroyed
*again*,
> and reborn *again*. Really the only important thing about the whole
> process is how hard it is for your soul to get out of the whole thing
and
> achieve release or unity with the divine or whatever in the most
> degenerate ages.
I'd hate this for Mage. For me Mage has been about the fact you can
make a difference, you can make the world a better place. If its doomed
to get worse and be destoryed I would find it all rather pointless to
do anything beyond seeking personal Ascention. YMMV.
winge...@my-deja.com
article <39C61457...@ihug.com.au>,
Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In advance, sorry for splitting this up like this, but my computer
> > wouldn't let me post the thing whole.
>
> No problem. I put it back together again for mine.
>
> > Thanks for the site... I'll see if I can get a look at that.
> >
> > As for my reason for that issue is that they are ignoring a buttload
of
> > Wyrm right in front of them in order to focus only on women's
issues.
> > Did you know that, if a woman takes her children to a shelter for
> > battered women and one of her boys happens to be 13, he won't be
allowed
> > in?
>
> Didn't know that, and I agree, that sucks royally.
Yup, simple rule, no boys in or past puberty allowed into their
safehouses.
>
> > That's a part of the issue.... If a
> > woman has a battering husband, not only get her out of that, also
rip
> > the batterer's dick off and choke him to death with it. I have no
room
> > in my affections for bullies, and family abusers are up there with
> > rapists on that scale.
>
> You had me right up until this point. The biggest problem I have
> with the Garou as a whole is their overly violent solutions to
> problems, and that's exactly the kind of attitude I deplore. Violent
> solutions only beget more violence, and looking at abuse through
> an angry lens only increases problems. Call be a bleeding heart
> liberal. But the kind of stats on the childhoods of child abusers,
> of wife beaters, and of so many other groups relates one clear
> truth: Violence begets violence, and this isn't a simple problem,
> it's a social cycle.
Understandable. Yah, violence begats violence. I was just
illustraiting my deep hatred for bullies, especially family abusers.
>
> Our society won't get any better until we start to try and
> sympathise with a child abuser. *waits for the flood on that call*
Pitty them, maybe, but don't show them mercy. Find out WTF turned them
into child/spouse abusers and work to stop it from happening wherever
you can. But, a psychological reason does not make up for the intense
damage one does as an abuser.
Understand them, yes. Pitty them, maybe. But, show them mercy, no
fucking way.
>
> > Excuse me, most of those I've known have grown entirely to the
opposite
> > of kind, loving, and benevolant upon hearing that I'm an atheist.
On
> > another example, if you look to the right newsgroups, you'll find
> > stories of atheists that have gotten black eyes because their
> > superchristian friends decided that such tactics would be the best
to
> > get them to "see the light".
>
> I know, and that bullshit angers me just as much. That's wrong,
> no question from me. It's just that you also get a lot of strong,
> church-going Christians who spend their time instead working
> charity causes, and somehow talking about these guys causes
> people to gag about 'how sweet it is'. You get a second group
> who are just regular, normal people who try to quietly live a
> Christian life, but they're boring. As a result, all that's ever
> heard about the church is the bad stuff.
>
> That pisses me off, too.
And, this all illustraits how bringing in one example, and one that has
been mutated and warped by generations of oral tradition followed by
several faulty translations mixed in with a healthy dose of selective
ignorance, does not suggest an entire group.
>
> > But, these guys are eager for it. They all want to die in battle so
> > they can get into Valhalla. Well, folks, being ready to kill a bane
by
> > choking it with your corpse may be one thing, but let's try a little
> > something else first.
>
> True, and there are a lot of (But not all,) Get who think likethat.
But
> it's common sense to not lose members flippantly, and the Garou
> know that. For an example, again, check the renown chart. Death
> in battle is glorified, but so is bringing home the whole pack
unharmed.
Quite true. And, while I'm sure postumous renown doesn't mean much to
your average Garou, that's not in the issue here. The issue is that, by
Get mythology, there is a specific reward in dieing gloriously in
battle.
>
> > That's what it says in the book. It literally says that the amount
of
> > trust one gives to a Shadow Lord is inverse in relation to the
number of
> > Shadow Lords in the area. And, if you look at the 2nd ed (i don't
have
> > revised) mainbook's comic book, there you have 'em being assholes as
> > much as usual.
>
> (That could as easily have been a Silver Fang, who are seen
> as honest if little else, but I'll refrain. The real point of that
> display was pride and arrogance, not powerplaying :-) )
But, it shows them as exactly the image that, if they're to be any good
at politicing, they don't want.
>
> And yes, but the Shadow Lords are also now #1 in
> Europe. (As of World of Rage.) From what I understand,
> they're doing a good job. Perhaps, indeed, better than
> the Silver Fangs. They might be seen as manipulative and
> deceitful, but they're also effective, clever and pragmatic.
And, so far as I can tell, they're the only ones.
>
> > Inexperience, desperation, or a combonation of the two.
>
> And again, because they get things done. You see more
> people going to the Lords for help than the Fangs, these
> days.
Yah, but it's like selling your soul to the devil unknowingly, you may
be expecting results and you may get them...
>
> > Well, yay for King Albrecht, then. Wow... he can get some better
blood
> > in without actually betraying the traditions of only bringing in
> > greatness. It's just that they've been describing greatness as
> > "inbredbastard that was born into great power and didn't really have
to
> > work to attain it" for so long.
>
> And it's a problem, and some of the Fangs are realising this. They're
> working on it. :-)
Fi-(insert explitave here)-nally
>
> > Tradition can be a powerful weapon... of the Weaver's. They're
falling
> > into the Weaver's trap of fear of change as much as the Red Talons
are.
>
> I'll buy the Weaver argument for the Fangs, although I still disagree
> with you on the Talons.
Ok.
>
> > Seen it, can't really believe that anybody found that movie
offensive to
> > Christians, it was a very "pro god" movie at the end there, even
though
> > God punished two angels for being more compasionate than he was.
>
> It was actually very conservative. *nods* Mostly just about faith and
> how the general trappings around God aren't as important as the
> central message of brotherhood and love.>
And, unless my memory is off, Stigmata, which was much more offensive to
Christianity, got no such problems whatsoever, because they didn't have
connections to pockets quite so deep as those that Dogma had.
>
> > Well... every Lupus. Most Homids are too close to the issue to see
it
> > that clearly.
>
> I think you'd be surprised. Often homids actually find themselves
> more hateful toward humanity than the lupus, because they
> remember what THEY used to do. An example of this was in the
> 1st Ed players guide section on the city.
Yes, I have played a Homid for the new Impregium before. But, for the
most part, you'll find that most Homids are against it. And, they are a
little close to the issue.
>
> > They made the mistake the first time, because the Red Talons were in
> > such a froth that they killed everybody.
>
> The Red Talons were far from being the only tribe behind the
> Impergium.
Maybe not, but they were the main example. And, the point still holds
that this is an example of emotions leading.
>
> > The second time, because the CoG's played on their sympathies.
>
> The Children of Gaia were far from the only tribe who wereresponsible
for it
> ending. :-)
Again, true. But, this is another example of emotions leading an issue.
>
> > This all goes into the issue that, if
> > they would take a moment to think, just for a minute, they might see
> > that there are problems that go well beyond the immediate involved.
>
> No, it's not. There were real, solid arguments for why the Impergium
> should have been enacted. Look around now, the answers all
> around us. There were solid arguments against it, too, and I can't
> see why these wouldn't have been considered. But the pros
> outweighed the cons, at least in the eyes of the Garou, and it went
> ahead.
Mostly that "these people are our families". Which is a damn good
reason to not kill somebody. But, in this case, it was a bad idea.
>
> > You think so? You would be wrong. You get humans into a group
large
> > enough, and it only takes the slightest emotional manipulation to
get
> > them working up into a froth enough to bring the soundest equal
rights
> > supporter into a race hatred. (BTW, that's what I mean by pack
> > mentality, not the mentality of garou packs)
>
> OK, cool. Just making sure on the use of words, here. And yes,
> that's true, but even us at our most savage don't hit the everyday
> level of instinct a wolf has. That's what I mean by being 'too
> heady', we run on rationality.
The everyday instinct? No. In every day instinct, the wolf is a much
more intelligent creature than the human being in a crowd. And, it's
the crowd instinct that is responsible for most of the Garou's
stupidities.
>
> > That's their stupidity *now*. The War of Rage, the Impregium, it's
> > disasterous end, the Bunyip, and the second War of Rage were all
> > examples of what happened when they acted immediately on their
emotions
> > without taking a moment to think about it.
>
> You've no proof the War of Rage didn't have reasonable causes,
> again, Silver Record discusses this somewhat. The Impergium
> DID have reasonable goals, and it may well have been the best
> decision. Conversely, we don't know what might have happened
> had the Impergium never ended, so maybe it wasn't a bad
> decision either. And the second War of Rage made sense to the
> Garou then, even if it looks dumbass to us.
Yah, but then again, it made sense to kill off their allies in the
second war of rage too. What a Garou thinks makes sense is rarely, if
ever, an indication that it is actually an intelligent move.
>
> > I would argue that fighting the "dark elder thing" and not fighting
the
> > inherent concept has been the problem that brought us to this point.
> > "dark elder thing" is easy to see. Concept, you have to look for
and be
> > ever vigilante against.
>
> Disagree. Ignoring the greater effects of the Wyrm has been a great
> problem of the Garou, one which has only recently become a major
> concern. But to ever reduce the Wyrm to a concept denies it
> intelligence, organisation, and cunning. All of these the Wyrm has,
and
> uses potently.
It is a sentient concept. That is, in fact, its nature. The same thing
for the Weaver and the Wyld. In ignoring the concept of the Wyrm, they
leave a huge, wide, gaping hole through which the Wyrm can come. The
banes are relatively simple issues of find and kill. And, just about
anybody can get together to find and kill as many banes as they can.
And, more power to 'em in that effort. But, the banes aren't the main
strength of the Wyrm. That strength comes in the humans and the animals
that turn to the Wyrm out of greed and hatred.
>
> > The single issue here is their *fear* of change and their refusal to
> > change. The Wyld loathes stasis, it goes against the Wyld's nature
to
> > be the same thing for any period of time. Consider that, by the
Wyld's
> > own nature of insiting change and differentiation in everything, an
> > infinity of balance is nigh impossible. So, their pristine nature
was
> > doomed to be paved over, only to sprout new life again.
>
> True, but the Red Talons don't want a static, unchanging situation.
> Well, some might, but generally the major point here is that the
> Red Talons want a /different/ situation to the one here now. That
> they harken to the past and how the world looked then doesn't
> nessecarily mean they'd have a problem with that world changing
> in another direction.
What they want is a pristine nature, an unchanging wilds. In that, the
Weaver has left it's mark that will destroy the Red Talons.
>
> > I would suggest that this is a change of degree rather than nature.
>
> Yes, but that's an important show of changing stance. Plus, the
> Red Talons rose in reaction to humanities activities, you have
> to consider they'll be a bit preoccupied with it.
It wasn't a changing of stance in any way, shape, or form. The same
stance has become desperate.
>
> > No, but it is a mistake to assume that, because they're fighting for
a
> > true ideal that they themselves are not quite tainted with that
which
> > they fight against.
>
> The Red Talons maybe don't look at themselves as hard as they
> could do, and maybe are a bit quick to place blame elsewhere.
> But they've got a point, and their vision of the world isn't a
> bad one, by a Gaian standpoint. (It is by a human standpoint,
> but hey.)
No, it isn't a bad one. It's one that they could have kept, had the
humans kept to the correct ways, the Gurahl been given the chance to
teach them, or the Garou not stopped the Impregium well after it was too
late to unbreak the damn. But, it is one that they can't get back.
They want a world where concrete was never poured. Well, the concrete
is poured. Rather than considering a way to overcome the concrete,
they're still trying to retreate into the anti-conrete areas of the
world. The Weaver has left his touch and it's going to kill them
because they refuse to adapt.
This also shows in their Homid form, which is a throwback in evolution.
Evolution is change, which the Weaver loathes and detests.
>
> > I hope they get a little smarter about it. But, they show far too
much
> > faith in a Weaver that's obviously leading the Wyrm's panicked
> > thrashings to where he wants them to thrash.
>
> Not nessecarily true. Again referring you to World of Rage, check
> out the whole section on the Eurohub. This the the Weaver
> desperately trying to kill off both the Wyld and the Wyrm for it's
> own benefit. That the Wyrm is having more success breaking in
> is besides the point.
Well, take a look at the Weaver's overall goal. To make everything
perfect (in other words unchanging.) The Wyrm's destruction of
thousands upon thousands of seals to keep the oil for the Weaver's ships
flowing didn't disturb the Weaver in the slightest. The Weaver cares
not for life, but for perfection and the unchanging.
>
> > You see *they've* got a portion of the right idea here. They're not
> > refusing all change, they're doing what they can to keep the Wyld
strong
> > in the midst of the change. Bring the Wyld to the cities, and not
even
> > the Weaver can stop it. But, they don't wish to destroy the
Machine.
> > Even they're missing the obvious truth in that the Weaver leads and
the
> > Wyrm follows.
>
> Again, this is arguable. The Weaver stands to lose as much as the Wyld
> if the Wyrm triumphs, quite plainly. If the Wyrm destroys all, that
leaves
> no room for the Wyld or the Weaver. And insane or no, she's got
> some kind of plan. Perhaps. It's all very difficult to kind of judge
these
> things with primal forces of nature and all.
The Wyrm's complete success may be counter to the Weaver's goals, but
the destruction the Wyrm creates now does not. The Forests are, by the
Weaver's stance, infuriating, not even going a measily century without
some huge changing going on. And, animals are always changing through
their forms through the millions of years, thus infuriating the Weaver's
sense of perfection (which requires the unchanging).
>
> > No, not the mentality of packs, but their mentality when they get
into
> > large enough groups. This works the same with humans. The larger
the
> > group, the lower the intelligence of any individual. They'll
believe
> > more, be more manipulatable, and, all in all, be dumber for being in
the
> > largest of groups.
>
> Fine, but we've ultimately got to be arguing in relative terms here.
If
> Garou are about as smart as humans (Which seems the be the level
> here,) then they're generally par for the course. You could get
smarter
> groups, I suppose, but they're not that bad.
>
> They've got nothing on Changelings, I'll tell you that. "Hmm, I exist
> because of dreams. Hey, that mortal pissed me off! I'll give him
> nightmares." And commoner Changelings have got didly-squat
> on the Sidhe, whose string of bad decisions can be seen
> throughout the books. With apparently a handy compilation album
> in Redcaps.
The day of Knives is a prime example of Sidhe stupidity. It seems that
just about all the beings in the WoD are dumber than toast.
>
> > The wolves are just an illustraition of the pack instinct, which
grows
> > to work against itself, in the Garou.
>
> The pack instinct works FOR the Garou. It creates brotherhood and
> fosters a healthy, constructive pride. There's a reason Ronin are so
> distrusted, it's like you've disowned your brothers, sisters and
parents.
>
> What doesn't work is when the Garou move /beyond/ the pack....
>
> Wait, just realised. You're not talking Packs, you're talking packs.
> Can we choose some different words here?
How about crowd instinct?
>
> At any rate, that's not pack instinct which is the problem. It's
> infighting which is the problem, and the Garou have that in
> spades.
Which is another bit of stupidity. They're all too busy thinking about
who's on first when they should be looking at that huge fucking loco
Wyrm that's chugging along to roll 'em right over.
>
> > If you look closely, the same happens with humans. We've come into
such
> > large groupings, that, within the groupings, groupings grow to take
up
> > arms against whatever enemies they can find. This is why we have
shit
> > like gangs and the KKK.
>
> You can't sum up the KKK to simple psychology. There's history to
> work with, economic issues, and yes, psychology. But it's part of a
> larger puzzle.
But it is an example of the human pack instinct working against itself.
In fact, I'd say that's one of the themes of Werewolf.
> The Garou have a tendency to apply simplistic solutions to a complex
> problem, and they don't work. For all the blood and gore, the fact
> that the Garou are not winning is an indictment of such material. It's
> not working.
They're looking for quick fixes, which fuck them up.
>
> > They can't gamble on its lack either. They've been doing that for
the
> > past few decades. You're working in celestial time, here. It could
be
> > tomorrow, or it could be in the next half century. Either way, you
> > can't count on the Apocalypse happening tomorrow.
>
> True. But it's an open discussion as to which is more likely, and
> what's the best solution therefore. If you talked to one Garou
> (Such as the downright Weberian Lisa Tholmson, one of my
> characters,) she'll definitely argue for long term plans involving
> intelligence gathering on the spiritual dimensions of the enemy.
> She'll point out the Garou still really don't know who they're
> fighting.
>
> But if you ask Sami Gabar, she'll point out that that kind of
> stuff is what should have happened fifty years ago. It's too
> late now. And if we send Garou out to do that research,
> we don't have them here for when the Apocalypse hits.
> It's bad tactics.
Sami Gabar has a problem, though. Tell her to look at the world and
show that it's any more fucked today than it was in the 50's. It's
really not. It's just that we see it so much more clearly today...
because we finaly decided to take a look and say, "You know, maybe
removing our entire supply of oxygen might not be the best of ideas."
Is the Appocalyps any closer than it was 50 years ago? Yes. It's 50
years closer. But, nobody has any clue how far it is. They have a
general "it's close" feeling. But, if they didn't get that in the
1900's, they just weren't paying attention. You ask if we can risk
taking the time to strengthen our knowledge and our resources. I ask if
we can risk not doing so.
winge...@my-deja.com
>
> > Simply taken care of by owning a private station.
>
> Which needs a licence, and if you check out TV and radio
> stations, they sew up their own loose ends in such matters.
Pirate it and send it out over as many stations as possible. Send a
copy to every T.V station in the country with a note that all the others
are going to run it. Hell, catch some of their official memos. That
worked for catching Tobaco companies in their policies of marketing to
minors as young as fourteen years old.
>
> And if you broadcast without a licence, then Pentex can
> shut them down with little legal ramifications. (I think.) And
> sue them for defamation.
But, if you get the public outcry loud enough, no amount of Pentex
bribery can keep the tide from overtaking them.
>
> > Ok, challenges of leadership. "He who can lead their pack to goal
*X*
> > wins." I should also remind you that the Lupus garou are as good as
any
> > human at riddles, somewhat better for their having not so rigid a
view
> > on the issue.
>
> But you've got no guarentee they'd agree. Again, the mentality here
> is that if they feel they can't best the garou in a challenge, they
> won't take it. Artificially levering the odds won't work. Or, at
least,
> there's a good chance it won't.
Then work with them. Get it to work. One of the Garou's biggest
problem comes from their own oppression of their kinfolk.
>
> > I'm not talking about even implimenting it. Not restricting it
woudl be
> > a good start.
>
> The restrictions aren't all artificial though. This is the problem. It
goes
> into the way the breeds think.
They are artificial, coming from an intense ego that says "because I can
change forms, Gaia likes me better than my non-changing kinfolk"
>
> > Um, dude, Native American Land is soveriegn and the US Army isn't
> > allowed to go there without the consent of the Native Americans
living
> > there
>
> Yep. It's still a more aggressive strategy than reconcilliation, and
that's
> working so damn well, so it's the next logical strategy.
Just saying, America does have internal nations. The Indian Nation is
seperate from the American Nation.
>
> > If they can't afford to lose anyone, they're screwed, because then
they
> > couldn't afford to fight the wyrm because somebody could die. Well,
> > excuse me if I find that to be a load. It's a risky maneuver. But,
the
> > gain will greatly outweigh the cost if they can get on speaking
terms
> > with the other Changing Breeds again.
>
> It's a matter of how much worth it is. Is it worth the Garou to get
the
> Bete back on side? Answer, possibly. But is it worth it to Gaia? No,
> it's not. Because the bete are still fighting the Wyrm. Sure, there's
> battles with the Garou as well, and that's a problem. But just
> because the bete fight with the Garou doesn't mean it's a worst
> case scenario.
Are you fucking kidding?
How effective are you, right now, as a body?
Now, how effective would you be if your right arm decided it's not going
to work with your brain any more.
Now, how effective would it be if every organ and muscle in your body
spent half it's time trying to keep itself going, regardless of the
other organs, and the other half trying to kill or humiliate the other
organs?
Gaias chosen will be much more effective if they can work together, like
they should have in the first fucking place.
>
> > Send one in. Also note, he's not killing himself, he's giving the
other
> > Changing Breeds the right to kill him without challenge. The
Ratkin,
> > who I wouldn't involve in this anyway as insane as they are, would
> > definately kill the dude. But, the Gurahl wouldn't. The Mokole`
might.
> > The Bastet possibly, but it wouldn't be necessary for them, the
Garou
> > and Bastet already do have some individuals on speaking terms.
>
> Actually, I'd give the Ratkin higher odds of not killing the guy than
> the Mokole. The Ratkin would find a better way to do more
> damage. I dunno, infect him with something then send him home.
I'ld still not include them in the mess. They're fucking insane.
The Mokole` and the Gurahl are the biggest issues.
The Gurahl may be few and far between, but they have healing abilities
(for the body, spirit, and the land) that the Garou couldn't match even
if they did know how the Gurahl did it.
>
> The Mokole, meanwhile, have too many bad memories, and too
> much pain left. They'd toast him.
Perhaps... but you're still looking towards a beginning here. Maybe,
just maybe, they'ld be moved enough by the sacrifice to listen to the
apology and, just maybe, be 1 percent of 1 percent on their way to
forgiving the current generation of Garou for the mistakes of those that
lived thousands of years ago.
(You'll note that I don't consider the Mokole` that smart either. Sure,
they've got the memory. But, they're secluding themselves from the
other races... not just the garou... all of 'em. That shit is why Gaia
replaced the Bastet.)
>
> > If you get the Gurahl and the Mokole` on speaking terms with the
Gaoru,
> > you've made a stride for Gaia that's more important than the Rite of
> > Caern Building.
>
> The Gurahl are nearly dead anyway. And the actual battle between
> them and the Garou is minimal, as I understand it. It's best to simply
> let them do their works as they choose to do so.
At the very least, an open dialogue would mean that they could partake
of the Gurahl healing capabilities with greater force.
BTW, this entire effort would serve a dual front as it could also bring
them into a sharing of the Homid Kin, which wouldn't reduce the numbers
of either, but strengthen the numbers of both. (argue time all you
like, but just remember that the Apocalypse has been coming tomorrow for
at least a century now.)
>
> > A. Temporarily lose a few female garou from the fight.
> >
> > B. Wolf generations are much faster than human ones. They
reproduce
> > every year. This can be a relatively fast way to populate certain
> > realms of the Umbra.
>
> True. *nods* That's something I forgot to consider. Point.
>
> > Rumors, for one. Artists. Hold a rally. Invite the local wiccan
> > groups to do some of their rituals.
>
> Do these things actually lower the Gauntlet? They may do,but I don't
think
> they do...
Human perceptions of an area can have a huge affect on the spiritual
capacity of an area. Human perceptions can even create a potential
caern. such things have a drastic affect on the Gauntlet.
>
> Now, there ARE ways to lower the Gauntlet, and good,
> solid ways. Demolish buildings, build parkland. Head
> into the Umbra and start wreaking a few pattern spiders
> and their webs. Both of these should work, I think, but
> they're both damned hard to do. The first is a political
> nightmare. The second is a lethal prospect in many
> areas.
>
> Again, I think the big point is that there are no easy
> answers.
And, there are no quick answers either. It's time to gamble on one
that's going to take some time.
>
> > Of course, Magi are usually able.
>
> Yeah, and the Garou are on great terms with Mages. ;-)
Kinfolk mages, for one.
Dreamspeakers.
Verbenna.
All three of these are on good terms with the Garou.
>
> > When you get the spirits active in the area, that will have an
affect on
> > the issue.
>
> But which spirits come? Wyld spirits? In the city, from where?
> More likely you get Weaver spirits, and the Gauntlet thickens
> again, or worse, Banes.
No, where the Gauntlet rises, you've got high levels of Weaver spirits,
they're drawn to such areas.
>
> > They had no frame of reference? The fucking Wyrm is a frame of
> > reference. It's trying to kill everything, and what is their
opinion of
> > it? Would they just forgive it if it suddenly stopped and said "I'm
> > sorry"? *NO*.
>
> The Wyrm is not a frame of reference. Trying to destroy everything
> is a hell of a lot different to attempting to control, not even
remove,
> a specifically damaging part of a system. In fact, that was the
> Wyrm's original task, the one the Garou had no problem with.
The Wyrm is very much a frame of reference. It's trying to destroy shit
for reasons that the Garou don't, and probably can't, understand.
>
> > The problem was that they were just too stupid. Once they started
it,
> > they couldn't end it. It's not like you can always go back and do
the
> > right thing. It's a river and they were trying to unbreak a damn.
It
> > just don't work.
>
> No, the problem is that it was, and still is, a very complicated,
difficult
> situation. It can't be denied, humans are the most damaging force to
> Gaia there is. Putting population caps is an ugly, hideous solution,
but
> it might have worked. We don't know.
It was an ugly and hideous solution. They shouldn't have started it in
the first place, because that's the main reason that humans turned out
the way they did. Instead, they should have punished the guilty, but
maintained a practice of teaching humans to keep their numbers low and
respecting nature and the land. But, they didn't. They lead a final
solution type conquest.
Then, they thought they could make it all better by not killing anymore.
They broke down a dam that was holding back the worst of human desires
and greeds. That dam was a respect for nature. They removed it when
they turned nature agains the humans. Then, they thought that they
could simply stop the issue and see what happens. What happened is the
present, a world where humans rule with an iron fist.
>
> And, as something to consider, why did the Garou decide to end it?
> This isn't very well covered, but it can't just be because the
Children
> of Gaia pleaded them to stop. They pleaded with them not to
> start. No, something else had to have changed in the equation, and
> that something may have been a real reason to end it. Again, since
> the Garou haven't gotten to see what would have happened had
> they continued it, it's impossible to say if it was the better
> decision or not.
Just take a look at the situation and apply a little logic. You might
not be omniscient, but you have a brain that can take a look at most
relevant possibilities.
>
> > Well, if I remember correctly, it went ass such. "What, the Garou
> > aren't telling us how to raise the dead? We'll kill everybody who
isn't
> > us!" That is dumber than toast.
>
> Actually, the story in the Silver Record about it follows a pact
> between the Talons and the Striders, I believe, to take down a
> Khan who clearly was overstepping his bounds and becoming
> downright tyranical. This alliance ended up becoming a critical
> force in the War, and did a lot of damage, but the reason the
> alliance was formed was actually a pretty fair reason.
So, there was a pact against a Khan that went too far... how does that
suggest that going hitler on the world and killing off all the non-garou
shifters was a good idea?
>
> > The humans were at least ignorant. The Garou have no such excuse.
>
> This is the first time I've ever heard anyone attack the Garou on
> the grounds that they're not ignorant. ;-) I've gotta admit, I'm
> stumped for a reply. Either I argue that they ARE ignorant,
> which plays to a negative stereotype, or I argue they're not
> and somehow try to press on with the argument.
The Garou weren't ignorant. They knew that everything had a price and
that nature was an intense spiritualism.
>
> Attempting the latter, the Australian Government had a
> Commission into Aboriginal deaths in custody, and the
> report which followed read like a blueprint for fixing about
> 90% of problems in Aboriginal society today. Something like
> 330 reccomendations or so. About 60, I think, got picked
> up, less got completed.
Ok, the humans were lazy and greedy, no excuses there.
>
> The Australian Government cannot be accused of ignorance.
> The evidence was there. They knew there was a problem.
> But to follow through on the reccomendations would have
> meant sacrificing a lot of the governments power in Aboriginal
> affairs, and they weren't willing to do that. This isn't stupidity,
> it's a mixture of greed, fear, and misplaced paternalism.
What they didn't know, however, was that, by ridding themselves of what
they thought of as a pest, they would be doing a favor for evil.
>
> Just because the Garou are not acting on possessed knowledge
> doesn't make them stupid.
Yes, that is the very description of stupidity, having the information
in your hand, and refusing to use it.
>
> > Thanks to the Bunyip and their kinfolk, an entire second Umbra came
> > about. Weaverish? I think not.
>
> Sure, but this is the tribe belonging to a people who, according to
> some theories, turned most of Australia's rainforrest into desert.
> Firestick farming was an amazingly successful hunting and gathering
> technique, but the effects it had on the environment were hideous.
> It destroyed many plant species that required long term cycles,
> and it made for a proliferation of trees like Eucyalyptus, which
> I understand are absolute hogs for resources.
>
> If the Garou knew what the Aboriginal people were doing to
> the land, well, a few misplaced words, a mistake here or there,
> and suddenly the Bunyip look like downright threats.
Which is why the Garou didn't even say "hi". They said "Hey, that black
spiral dancer said that the Bunyip killed my sister... you think I
should be wary of the world of an obviously wyrmtainted freak?"
>
> > Yah, but they could be a lot better if they had brain one in their
> > collective skull. Same thing with the Library at Alexandria... you
know
> > how much better the standard of living could have been raised if
they
> > had used the information in there instead of burning it because it
> > didn't worship Allah?
>
> Don't know the story here, so I'll refrain from comment.
The Muslims burned the Library at Alexandria. The idea was that, if
they worshipped Allah, there was already the Koran. If they didn't,
well, they weren't true anyway. So, they burned the books instead of
heating fire... it took six months to complete it.
--
"There are two types of power. There is authority, which can only be
given, and control, which can only be taken."
Wingedbeast, C. Adam Scott, Atheist #1438
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/wingedbeast/index.html
Eric Tolle
>
> I think I prefer the Hindu approach for Mages. The universe will be
> destoyed *again*, and then reborn as a perfect world *again* which will
> then degenerate slowly over four great ages until it's destroyed *again*,
> and reborn *again*. Really the only important thing about the whole
> process is how hard it is for your soul to get out of the whole thing and
> achieve release or unity with the divine or whatever in the most
> degenerate ages.
And the reason for player characters to go running around doing
futile things, rather then finding a cave to reach Satori in, is?
I'd say that any game where all of the character's actions except
for dropping out are pointless, really isn't to my taste.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA,
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!
Sean Riley
> Splitting it up again. Hope you don't mind.
Not at all. I'm snipping a lot here, anyhoo.
<snip>
> The everyday instinct? No. In every day instinct, the wolf is a much
> more intelligent creature than the human being in a crowd. And, it's
> the crowd instinct that is responsible for most of the Garou's
> stupidities.
And <snip>
> Yah, but then again, it made sense to kill off their allies in the
> second war of rage too. What a Garou thinks makes sense is rarely, if
> ever, an indication that it is actually an intelligent move.
<snip, and highlight this next section>
> The day of Knives is a prime example of Sidhe stupidity. It seems that
> just about all the beings in the WoD are dumber than toast.
<snip, highlight>
> (You'll note that I don't consider the Mokole` that smart either. Sure,
> they've got the memory. But, they're secluding themselves from the
> other races... not just the garou... all of 'em. That shit is why Gaia
> replaced the Bastet.)
<snip, highlight>
> The Wyrm is very much a frame of reference. It's trying to destroy shit
> for reasons that the Garou don't, and probably can't, understand.
<snip>
> Just take a look at the situation and apply a little logic. You might
> not be omniscient, but you have a brain that can take a look at most
> relevant possibilities.
Right. Going from our last round of posts, we got the 'Dumber Than
Toast' list as:
Garou.
Humanity in general.
Changelings, and especially the Sidhe.
Mokole.
Bastet.
Most of the creatures in the World of Darkness.
Frankly, the only thing looking particularly good in this whole
debate is toast, which never looked smarter.
Stupidity is a relative concept. You can't just be stupid. You
have to be stupid in relative to another group. And with the
way you've defined stupid in this debate, you've left no-one
left to compare the Garou too. The Garou are dumb,
but compared to who?
So I'll conclude my argument. Yes, the Garou are dumb. But
no moreso than anyone else.
Cheers,
Sean.
Sean Riley
> Understand them, yes. Pitty them, maybe. But, show them mercy, no
> fucking way.
OK, this is a sidebar to the last post.
Mercy. That is nearly the spot on, exactly the word we're talking
about. I'm not a big fan of Phillip Yancey. (He's a Christian writer
who tends to say a lot of stuff people have said before and gets
given major credit for it; although to be fair, he's more credited
with making it accessible rather than coming up with the ideas.)
But I'll give him points for his discussion about mercy, forgiveness
and grace. He hammered home all points. Mercy is hideously
unfair. Correct. The notion of letting a serial killer out of any kind
of punishment is one we find abominable. Indeed, this is the most
common assault on Christianity I find. (Whilst hypocrisy is a more
common charge, it's aimed at the church, not the faith.) But that's
the doctrine of mercy, a sharp opposite to the scheme of crime
and punishment.
It is exceedingly difficult as a result of this. Forgiveness is not a
platonic ideal, mercy is performing what Yancey called 'an
unnatural act'. Asking the victims or the friends and family of
victims of crime to forgive the criminal is a slap in the face.
But you know something? Yancey devoted several chapters of
his book "What's so Amazing About Grace?" to the subject of
why mercy was so nessecary and most of them worked on a
purely secular level. It absolved the feelings of pain in the giver,
which is one of the big arguments for punishment policy. (Why
supposedly the family of the murder victim watch the execution.)
He pointed out that you can trace the effects of admission of
guilt and need for forgiveness even in International Politics, and
see how it plays out. (He gives a fascinating example of the way
it's worked for Germany, as contrasted with Japan.) And most
importantly, he showed how unconditional mercy breaks the
chains of crime, punishment, and counter crime.
Yes. I say mercy is a quality this world is highly short of. And
boy, for all my hatred of the Redeemers, you don't think I'd
talk so much like one. ;-)
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"I am one gifted with the second sight, capable of manipulating the
forces of nature for the benefit of all!"
"You're a fashion consultant?"
"Well, yes, but that's not what I was referring to." Guybrush
Threepwood and Voodoo Lady
winge...@my-deja.com
Well, I'm comparing them to toast. It's just an issue of the abilities
of rational thought that people should have. I guess I shouldn't be
suprised. People acting as a group are almost always massively more
stupid than people acting as individuals. Toast... is somewhere in the
middle. Not smart enough to think logically, but much too intelligent
to think that killing people is the way to make friends.
>
> Cheers,
> Sean.
>
> --
>
> "Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits are objects
> of scorn to smart Americans who blow horns to break up
> traffic jams." - Mary Ellen Kelly
>
> Sean Riley
> jaks...@ihug.com.au
> He's not just for breakfast anymore
>
>
--
"There are two types of power. There is authority, which can only be
given, and control, which can only be taken."
Wingedbeast, C. Adam Scott, Atheist #1438
http://www.angelfire.com/pe/wingedbeast/index.html
Darren MacLennan
sacrifices to their forgiveness. By this, I mean, a pack of garou
(preferably an old pack or an old garou), walks up to where the Gurahl
or the Mokole` are around say something to the affect of "I am *Insert
Tribal Name here* of the Garou, I come bearing appologies for the crimes
our ancestors have committed in the War of Rage. To pay for those
crimes and for your forgiveness, I offer my life for you to take without
challenge" then exposing their neck and prepare to return to Gaia. It
would also be a good way to earn some postumous renown.
<<
Damned if that isn't one of the coolest things that I've read in a good
long while. They ought to put that into Werewolf: Revised, if you want my
opinion.
Of course, you probably don't, but... :->
-Darren MacLennan
--
I just pray to God sometimes that there's a Hell.
- Apollo, "Secret History of the Authority" #3
Sean Riley
> Well, I'm comparing them to toast. It's just an issue of the abilities
> of rational thought that people should have. I guess I shouldn't be
> suprised. People acting as a group are almost always massively more
> stupid than people acting as individuals. Toast... is somewhere in the
> middle. Not smart enough to think logically, but much too intelligent
> to think that killing people is the way to make friends.
I'm reminded of the quote "Well, obviously the only rational solution
to your problem is suicide." :-)
To quote Scott Adams (loosely, I've misplaced my copy of The
Dilbert Principle, curses,) "People are idiots. Not just the ones with
low SAT scores. You. Me. Everyone. We're all idiots . . . but
idiocy in the modern age is not a 24 hours a day, around the clock
situation." I think this explains almost as much as the idea of God
having a sense of humour.
People aren't that bad. We're idiots, and we it's only when we
forget the fact that we get into trouble. I used to think that I'd
get rid of idiocy if I could get rid of anything on Earth. On second
glance, I think our foolishness is one of our best features in some
ways (Really.) and I'd be happy to simply get rid of bad manners,
and typing in all lower case on the internet.
Cheers,
Sean.
--
"And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and
caring, let's get back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
winge...@my-deja.com
Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Well, I'm comparing them to toast. It's just an issue of the
abilities
> > of rational thought that people should have. I guess I shouldn't be
> > suprised. People acting as a group are almost always massively more
> > stupid than people acting as individuals. Toast... is somewhere in
the
> > middle. Not smart enough to think logically, but much too
intelligent
> > to think that killing people is the way to make friends.
>
> to your problem is suicide." :-)
>
> To quote Scott Adams (loosely, I've misplaced my copy of The
> Dilbert Principle, curses,) "People are idiots. Not just the ones with
> low SAT scores. You. Me. Everyone. We're all idiots . . . but
> idiocy in the modern age is not a 24 hours a day, around the clock
> situation." I think this explains almost as much as the idea of God
> having a sense of humour.
>
> People aren't that bad. We're idiots, and we it's only when we
> forget the fact that we get into trouble. I used to think that I'd
> get rid of idiocy if I could get rid of anything on Earth. On second
> glance, I think our foolishness is one of our best features in some
> ways (Really.) and I'd be happy to simply get rid of bad manners,
> and typing in all lower case on the internet.
And this all goes back to Ethan's statement that the Garou aren't
stupid. By their nature, they're idiots. More so than the human race,
even. They are idiots. They would, with little goading, set off nukes.
They *are* that stupid.
>
> Cheers,
> Sean.
>
> --
>
> "And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and
> caring, let's get back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
>
Ethan Skemp
>> People aren't that bad. We're idiots, and we it's only when we
>> forget the fact that we get into trouble. I used to think that I'd
>> get rid of idiocy if I could get rid of anything on Earth. On second
>> glance, I think our foolishness is one of our best features in some
>> ways (Really.) and I'd be happy to simply get rid of bad manners,
>> and typing in all lower case on the internet.
>
> And this all goes back to Ethan's statement that the Garou aren't
> stupid. By their nature, they're idiots. More so than the human race,
> even. They are idiots. They would, with little goading, set off nukes.
> They *are* that stupid.
I think by this logic we should discard any proposed
Apocalypse/Gehenna/whatever scenarios that do not begin with "Caine runs
with scissors, falls down, puts eye out."
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
winge...@my-deja.com
In all honesty, Ethan, they are that stupid. On individual or
phylosophical levels, they can, and do, rival the human thinkers. The
problem is when they start thinking in crowds. Individuals very, packs
very, Septs get into problems, Camps start thinking in too
allencompasing terms, Tribes exagurate the issue. The individuals can
be very intelligent, but when they get into a crowd as large as a Tribe,
they're very much stupid enough to go firing a nuke without thinking far
enough to look at the consequences.
In all honesty, Ethan, the history of the WoD is a history of stupidity
in action.
RabidCabbit
>In article <39C8B870...@ihug.com.au>,
> Sean Riley <jaks...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
>> winge...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > Well, I'm comparing them to toast. It's just an issue of the
>abilities
>> > of rational thought that people should have. I guess I shouldn't be
>> > suprised. People acting as a group are almost always massively more
>> > stupid than people acting as individuals. Toast... is somewhere in
>the
>> > middle. Not smart enough to think logically, but much too
>intelligent
>> > to think that killing people is the way to make friends.
>>
>> I'm reminded of the quote "Well, obviously the only rational solution
>> to your problem is suicide." :-)
>>
>> To quote Scott Adams (loosely, I've misplaced my copy of The
>> Dilbert Principle, curses,) "People are idiots. Not just the ones with
>> low SAT scores. You. Me. Everyone. We're all idiots . . . but
>> idiocy in the modern age is not a 24 hours a day, around the clock
>> situation." I think this explains almost as much as the idea of God
>> having a sense of humour.
>>
>> People aren't that bad. We're idiots, and we it's only when we
>> forget the fact that we get into trouble. I used to think that I'd
>> get rid of idiocy if I could get rid of anything on Earth. On second
>> glance, I think our foolishness is one of our best features in some
>> ways (Really.) and I'd be happy to simply get rid of bad manners,
>> and typing in all lower case on the internet.
>
>And this all goes back to Ethan's statement that the Garou aren't
>stupid. By their nature, they're idiots. More so than the human race,
>even. They are idiots. They would, with little goading, set off nukes.
> They *are* that stupid.
>
I disagree... goading is not going to convince werewolves to set of
nuclear weapons. No way. Period. If you want to go with the
werewolves are dumber than dirt idea... fine. A little scenario.
:Person a tries to goad said werewolf into in setting off a nuke.
>Werewolf, "Ugh, Smash!" *SMASH Person*
Well... That didn't work. The only way you'll get a werewolf to set
off a nuke is to have them completely lose their mind and/or become
completely corrupted. In either case, they don't qualify as "The
Werewolves" but as "That nutcase"
-RC
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sean.
>>
>> --
>>
>> "And now that we've been warm and Christian and loving and
>> caring, let's get back to the nasty stuff!" - Paul McDermott
>>
Sean Riley
> And this all goes back to Ethan's statement that the Garou aren't
> stupid. By their nature, they're idiots. More so than the human race,
> even. They are idiots. They would, with little goading, set off nukes.
> They *are* that stupid.
Far out. I actually, for once, have a reasoned, long
conversation on stupidity and the various ranks of foolishness
among people and the fictional characters of the World of
Darkness. We logically discuss the War of Rage and
circumstances surrounding it, establishing it as more than a
black and white "Garou Bad / Bete Good" scenario. We
discuss the Impergium, and debate over the possibilities
it might have caused. And finally, we reach a logical
conclusion that indeed you can look into the history of almost
any people, and come up with a history of boneheads if
you look at it the right, or should that be the wrong? way.
And because that doesn't mesh with your preconceived
notion that the Garou MUST be moronic crusaders who'd
never consider the consequences of their actions, you
turn around and say, "Yeah? Well, they're BIGGER idiots."
I can't believe I wasted my time. I really can't.Ethan Skemp wrote:
> I think by this logic we should discard any proposed
> Apocalypse/Gehenna/whatever scenarios that do not begin with "Caine runs
> with scissors, falls down, puts eye out."
Or maybe one where Gaia loses her car keys and can't drive to
the big Apocalypse showdown. That the Garou started by
firing nukes.
Slightly pissed,
Brendan T. Moran
Eric Tolle wrote:
> Brendan T. Moran wrote:
> >
> > I think I prefer the Hindu approach for Mages. The universe will be
> > destoyed *again*, and then reborn as a perfect world *again* which will
> > then degenerate slowly over four great ages until it's destroyed *again*,
> > and reborn *again*. Really the only important thing about the whole
> > process is how hard it is for your soul to get out of the whole thing and
> > achieve release or unity with the divine or whatever in the most
> > degenerate ages.
>
> And the reason for player characters to go running around doing
> futile things, rather then finding a cave to reach Satori in, is?
>
Well, first of all, and most importantly, no one necessarily has to know that
that's how things work. They don't have to know about the whole cycle, or
might struggle against it in vain.
Second:
- Seeking out things they need to achieve Ascension
- Dealing with persecution and aggressors
- Dealing with other Awakened beings who see things differently than they do
- Guiding and protectng Sleepers to Ascension. One thing I thought got
emphasized more in MtA 1st was the idea that mages tend to attract followers
who look to them for guidance.
brendan