Gaia=Lilith?
Nash
A really weird idea occured to me.
Lilith is referred to as the mother of beasts. She's a creature of
unquantifiable and amazing power. Unlike dynamic magic, which invokes
paradox, the Disciplines Caine created under her guidance are
relatively stable (aside from Temporis, but the way the ST Guide reads,
that wasn't one of his). Not only that, Lilith hasn't been heard from
in a very long time.
Gaia is considered to be the mother of all the changing breeds.
She's powerful beyond any stats. The Gifts the Garou use are all tied
to her or other spirits, making them relatively stable. And Gaia's
been asleep a very long time.
Is it at all possible, strange as it may be, that Gaia and Lilith
are one in the same?
--
Nash
Cam Member #9604-220
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rezcat
think Lilith could fill the role of "Sciracca" in the Bastet/Ajaba myths
pretty good as well. I guess after having Adam, God, and Lucifer, Lilith
decided to go the bestial route.
Well, it's a weird idea anyway...
Nash <nashb...@my-deja.com> wrote
Dswynne
God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is Satan (and his
equivalent), then the Triat, then the Celestines, Incarna, etc. Lilith would
be the highest of the human creatures, right under these folks.
>Folks,
>
> A really weird idea occured to me.
> Lilith is referred to as the mother of beasts. She's a creature of
>unquantifiable and amazing power. Unlike dynamic magic, which invokes
>paradox, the Disciplines Caine created under her guidance are
>relatively stable (aside from Temporis, but the way the ST Guide reads,
>that wasn't one of his). Not only that, Lilith hasn't been heard from
>in a very long time.
> Gaia is considered to be the mother of all the changing breeds.
>She's powerful beyond any stats. The Gifts the Garou use are all tied
>to her or other spirits, making them relatively stable. And Gaia's
>been asleep a very long time.
> Is it at all possible, strange as it may be, that Gaia and Lilith
>are one in the same?
>
>--
>Nash
>Cam Member #9604-220
>
"In the end, there can be only one, and it may as well be me!"-Kenny (from
Highlander: The Series)
Pepsi 128
dsw...@aol.com says...
According to Revelations of a Dark Mother, Lilith became equal to God.
> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be equal to
> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is Satan (and his
> equivalent), then the Triat, then the Celestines, Incarna, etc. Lilith would
> be the highest of the human creatures, right under these folks.
>
(snipped stuff)
>
--
Pepsi 128
(AKA Bryan)
Kaiden Fox
Not to be too obtuse, but Lilith isn't human. That is, she is imune to "the human condition." Because she
is not a Son of Adam or a Daughter of Eve, she has never partaken of the Tree of Knowledge. She does not suffer
the Curse of Man and, therefore, is "created in god's image."
In article <MPG.13763b18...@news.sdf.bellsouth.net>,
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Nash
> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
equal to
> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
Satan (and his
> equivalent), then the Triat, then the Celestines, Incarna, etc.
Lilith would
> be the highest of the human creatures, right under these folks.
True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother, which says God
raised Lilith up to the same level he was on, as his lover. Now, are
you saying Gaia and God are one in the same, or that Gaia is as
powerful as God? If it's the latter, it's in holding that Lilith just
might be Gaia.
Nash
Cam Member 9604-220
Samiel Spiral
>> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
>equal to
>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
>Satan (and his
>> equivalent)
>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia. At least
the BoN says that they are both damned. Of course I still think that the father
of darkness is Saulot not Caine.
~Janus
SASA
Webwalker
>>
>>> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
>>equal to
>>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
>>Satan (and his
>>> equivalent)
>>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
> Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
> for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
> makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
> mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia.
Didn't Gaia create the Triat? If so, than Gaia created the Wyrm, the
greatest "Demon" of them all.
> At least
> the BoN says that they are both damned. Of course I still think that
> the father of darkness is Saulot not Caine.
*raised eyebrows* Hrm?
> ~Janus
> SASA
--
"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
-- Thomas A. Edison
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
Kaiden Fox
Samiel Spiral <samiel...@aol.com> wrote:
>Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
>for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
>makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
Actually, while it may not jive with the 20th century Garou idea
of Gaia, it DOES jive with the Greco-Roman idea of Gaia as being the
mother of the Titans.
One may even think of Vampires as being a failed attempt at
creating Garou. The Vampire likes to think of herself as "Preditor of
Humans," but we all know that's bullshit. Vampires are not preditors, but
rather parasites. There is no need for a Vampire to kill to survive, and
even those who do benifit from human overpopulation. Rather than being a
control to human overpopulation, they are the key cause.
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Nash
> Actually, while it may not jive with the 20th century Garou idea
> of Gaia, it DOES jive with the Greco-Roman idea of Gaia as being the
> mother of the Titans.
> One may even think of Vampires as being a failed attempt at
> creating Garou. The Vampire likes to think of herself as "Preditor of
> Humans," but we all know that's bullshit. Vampires are not
preditors, but
> rather parasites. There is no need for a Vampire to kill to survive,
and
> even those who do benifit from human overpopulation. Rather than
being a
> control to human overpopulation, they are the key cause.
I don't think vampires were a pre-Garou . . . I think that Lilith
just got lonely, and made Caine like herself, like God had done to her
when he for a time made her his equal. Which is why Caine has "All the
Discplines" and can "create new ones at will" . . . he, like Gaia and
the spirits she spawned, is the wellspring from which all the vampires
gain their powers. The simularities are there, if you look. Not
saying this is Canon, but it makes for one hell of a potential
storyline.
Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
creations, or her predecessors? I was led to believe they existed
before her; hence, if it was the other way around, she could just smack
them around and make them behave. Heck, Antihelios is a Celestine, and
he was created by the Wyrm. I think the Triat ranks higher; like God,
they may be other "Shining Ones," or they could simply be a notch below
him, and God a notch below *his* superiors. (Remember, according to
Revilations of the Dark Mother, God wasn't the really big man).
That bit about being the Mother of Titans in Roman mythology . . .
I didn't know about that. Though it's the kind of thing WW writers
stumble on all the time. ;)
I dunno, it just makes sense to me . . . Lilith, mother of beasts
and spawner of gardens, who Caine's children wrecked . . . doesn't it
sound a little like the vampires overwhelming the Wyld, and killing
Gaia's unspoiled works? It makes a frightening sort of sense,
especially considering both Gaia and Caine are expected to wake at the
end of everything . . . and aren't Lilith and Caine scheduled for a re-
match sometime around then?
Remember folks . . . just cause she's Mamma Earth doesn't means
she's all happy and shiny. She made shit like rattlesnakes, tigers,
poison-dart frogs, and the Changing Breeds. Gaia is one nasty, capable
bitch . . . just like Lilith. Worshiped as a Goddess, just like
Lilith. In a death-grip struggle with the forces of corruption and
destruction . . . just like Lilith is with Caine.
It may be so, it may not, but DAMN it would be cool if it was . . .
--
Nash
Who wonders now that we've narrowed down where Caine, Lilith, and Eve
(the Lady of Fate) all fit in, where the hell did Adam go?
Cam Member #9604-220
Mark Antill
"Kaiden Fox" <kai...@earth.execpc.com> wrote in message
news:390d21e7$0$19...@news.execpc.com...
> In article <20000430213703...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
> Samiel Spiral <samiel...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod
is
> >for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say
that
> >makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering
Lilith is
> >mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia. At
least
>
> of Gaia, it DOES jive with the Greco-Roman idea of Gaia as being the
> mother of the Titans.
The Gaia of Greel mythology gives birth to all sorts of monsters, including
Typhon who is later identified with Set, and in the Mummy book is the Sire
of Osiris and possibly Set. Mixing up real world mythology and the World of
Darkness can give all sorts of strange results.
Gaia as a warm fuzzy loving mother nature is a very late 20th century idea.
Nature is a bitch.
Mant
Kish
Nash wrote in message <8ekqhk$vgf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
>creations, or her predecessors?
In Werewolf 2nd, her creations (though the Bastet believe differently).
> It makes a frightening sort of sense,
>especially considering both Gaia and Caine are expected to wake at the
>end of everything . . .
News to me. Where do you get that Gaia's asleep, much less "expected to wake at
the end of everything"?
--
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.replacewithcom
Samiel Spiral
>especially considering both Gaia and Caine are expected to wake at the
>match sometime around then?
Book of Nod says Dark Mother, Lilith and Dark Father, not even necessarily
Caine, are going to fight it out. IMO Caine isn't even sleeping, he's just kind
chilling out walking around, fairly low key. Which is why I think Saulot would
fit the father of darkness, already claimed intent to over take Caine, but
never mentions Lilith, I bet she gets in the way of his plans and that's the
fight at Gehenna.
>Remember folks . . . just cause she's Mamma Earth doesn't means
>she's all happy and shiny.
But Gaia, is suppose to love all living creatures. (obviously throwing out
vampires)
>She made shit like rattlesnakes, tigers,
>poison-dart frogs, and the Changing Breeds.
There's a big difference in a leap from that to spawner of demons. Gaia isn't
good or bad, Gaia should be completly neutral, where as demons are inhearantly
evil, much as the vampires are. ::shrug::
~Janus
SASA
Aegyptian
Nash wrote:
> Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
> creations, or her predecessors? I was led to believe they existed
> before her; hence, if it was the other way around, she could just smack
> them around and make them behave. Heck, Antihelios is a Celestine, and
> he was created by the Wyrm. I think the Triat ranks higher; like God,
> they may be other "Shining Ones," or they could simply be a notch below
> him, and God a notch below *his* superiors. (Remember, according to
> Revilations of the Dark Mother, God wasn't the really big man).
As far as i know Gaia and the Triat come around at the same time.
>
> That bit about being the Mother of Titans in Roman mythology . . .
> I didn't know about that. Though it's the kind of thing WW writers
> stumble on all the time. ;)
Yep, mother of all sorts. Cyclopes, hectatonceres, titans, et al.
--
Nicholas Morrell - cric...@ix.netcom.com
Narek - Aegyptian - ICQ: 6560590
http://pw1.netcom.com/~cricknar/dragon.html
Fyszt
Webwalker wrote:
> Did you order the pizza, Samiel?
> >>
> >>> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
> >>equal to
> >>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
> >>Satan (and his
> >>> equivalent)
>
> >>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
>
> > Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
> > for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
> > makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
> > mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia.
>
> Didn't Gaia create the Triat? If so, than Gaia created the Wyrm, the
> greatest "Demon" of them all.
Er, no! Gaia is under the triat.
See, you've got the Wyld, then the Wyld makes a copy of something, then you get
the Weaver, then something is destroyed, then you Get the Wyrm.
Gaia integrates all 3 principle, she creates, reproduces and destroys, all in one
glorious and sacred cycle.
And Gaia was there before Lilith, Gaia is the earth.
Fyszt
Aegyptian wrote:
> Nash wrote:
>
> > Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
> > creations, or her predecessors? I was led to believe they existed
> > before her; hence, if it was the other way around, she could just smack
> > them around and make them behave. Heck, Antihelios is a Celestine, and
> > he was created by the Wyrm. I think the Triat ranks higher; like God,
> > they may be other "Shining Ones," or they could simply be a notch below
> > him, and God a notch below *his* superiors. (Remember, according to
> > Revilations of the Dark Mother, God wasn't the really big man).
>
> As far as i know Gaia and the Triat come around at the same time.
Ok:
In the beginning, there was Cahos, out of Cahos came Order, and later came
Destruction.
Cahos creates new things, Order makes copies, and Destruction makes room for
more new things and copies.
Gaia came from all 3 of them.
Gaia is mother to all living things, the One Above is father to all living
things.
Vamps are banned from the food of the Mother and from the kingdom of the
Father:
Can't eat food grown from the earth, can't walk in sunlight.
Lilith is the first priestess of Gaia.
In Greek mythology the Father was the Sky btw...
Billy Yeager
Erciyes Fragment, which mentions that Lilith will shoot off four arrows, and
only the last one will benefit the vampires at all: Hope.
As for Saulot being the Father of Darkness, I rather doubt it. For one, In
Transylvania Chronicles 3 or 4 there is a letter mentioning that he is
furious at Caine for stopping in one place on the Great Cycle. He then links
it to KOE by saying that Caine was never able to become enlightened enough
to drink anything but blood. Saulot was therefore pissed at Caine for having
limited what vampires were capable of doing. Further he then claimed that he
was going to try for the title of Demon Emperor, recognizing the fact that
the 6th Age might go away, but on the Cycle would eventually come around
again.
Sorry that was a little off topic. I think that there is quite a bit of
evidence to Lilith = Gaia. I think it was deliberately left vague so that
storytellers could choose for themselves without specifically going against
a book which might have published something else.
"Samiel Spiral" <samiel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000501173547...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
Samiel Spiral
>Transylvania Chronicles 3 or 4 there is a letter mentioning that he is
>furious at Caine for stopping in one place on the Great Cycle. He then links
>it to KOE by saying that Caine was never able to become enlightened enough
>to drink anything but blood. Saulot was therefore pissed at Caine for having
>limited what vampires were capable of doing. Further he then claimed that he
>was going to try for the title of Demon Emperor, recognizing the fact that
>the 6th Age might go away, but on the Cycle would eventually come around
>again.
So just why wouldn't Saulot be the father of darkness? You end up quoting his
horrible plans to be Demon Emperor and above Caine and God. He's created at
least 3 clans all for the bennifit of furthering his own power as well, it
really sounds like he fits the bill to a T.
~Janus
SASA
Billy Yeager
description to a T; yes he does, but the Father if Darkness came before all
other vampires, unless you believe that Lilith is a vampire... Saulot has
already stated that he was furious at Caine for what he felt was a betrayal
by their "father". He couldn't have been the first vampire, or even the
originator because he descends from Caine.
You mention that Saulot creates a thrid clan, which is the third clan?
"Samiel Spiral" <samiel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000501190927...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Samiel Spiral
>other vampires
Why do you think that? There isn't any mention of such, and it surely doesn't
mean the devil. It's just a prophet using poetic licence.
> unless you believe that Lilith is a vampire
No.
>Saulot has
>already stated that he was furious at Caine for what he felt was a betrayal
>by their "father". He couldn't have been the first vampire, or even the
>originator because he descends from Caine.
Um.. I'm not sure why that means Saulot couldn't be father of darkness. Again I
think it's just a refrence to someone that is a powerful ruler of evil, i.e.
what Saulot wants to be.
>You mention that Saulot creates a thrid clan, which is the third clan?
He, effectually creates the Tremere, as such there were vampires, but Saulot
made them a clan.
~Janus
SASA
Kish
Billy Yeager wrote in message <8el1hn$6bp$1...@tribune.oar.net>...
>Sorry that was a little off topic. I think that there is quite a bit of
>evidence to Lilith = Gaia. I think it was deliberately left vague so that
>storytellers could choose for themselves without specifically going against
>a book which might have published something else.
>
"The greatest spirit is Gaia. Below her is the Triat...The Realm-system begins
with Gaia and is bounded by Gaia. All things that exist within the Tellurian
are considered to be of Gaia, though some Garou would refute the notion that
evil beings are truly a part of Gaia....Below Gaia in cosmic power are the
mysterious, personified forced called the Wyld, the Weaver, and the Wyrm."
Page 177, Werewolf 2nd.
That doesn't sound at all vague to me. If, for some incomprehensible reason,
you really want Gaia to be Lilith, you could argue that the main Werewolf Second
Edition book should be discounted, or that that section should be read as IC and
therefore no more binding than the Bastet belief that the Triat created Gaia.
However, from where I'm standing, there's no support at all for the idea that
Gaia is Lilith.
It could be argued that there's support for the idea that Gaia /might/ be under
the Triat, but, unless you've read something I haven't (always a possibility),
there is less support for the idea that she is under the Triat than there is for
the idea that she's more than the Triat, and there's no support at all for
dogmatic claims that she is less than the Triat.
Kaiden Fox
>>creations, or her predecessors?
>
Damn. I thought that Gaia was a planetary spirit, like Jupiter or
Venus. I thought that the Trait were like intellegent Forces of the
Universe. Sort of like Gravity, only with personality. OK, I'm going
back to Vampire where everything makes sense.
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Kaiden Fox
Samiel Spiral <samiel...@aol.com> wrote:
>But Gaia, is suppose to love all living creatures. (obviously throwing out
>vampires)
Garou hate Vampires. Gaia loves them. Look at Kouldonic Sorcery, or the
Bond with Earth discipline of Protean. Vampires often protect themselves
through inhumation.
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Mirober
> Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
>creations, or her predecessors? I was led to believe they existed
>before her; hence, if it was the other way around, she could just smack
>them around and make them behave.
Depends on who you ask. Most Garou tend to think of her as the whole
of creation, and above the Triat (though suffering at their hands).
Others claim the Triat is above her. The Kitsune say there were
actually two Gaias: the first was mortally wounded by birthing the
Universe, and her final act of creation was to give birth to her
reincarnated self (Earth Gaia).
>Nash
>Who wonders now that we've narrowed down where Caine, Lilith, and Eve
>(the Lady of Fate) all fit in, where the hell did Adam go?
Over to the Aberrant universe. :-)
--
Matt Roberts
/v\ The Corax Digital Nest /v\
http://www.lascruces.com/~mirober/main.html
Alternate Currents:
http://dvie.virtualave.net/
Daemeon Lethe
Nash <nashb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> A really weird idea occured to me.
> Lilith is referred to as the mother of beasts. She's a creature
of
> unquantifiable and amazing power. Unlike dynamic magic, which invokes
> paradox, the Disciplines Caine created under her guidance are
> relatively stable (aside from Temporis, but the way the ST Guide
reads,
> that wasn't one of his). Not only that, Lilith hasn't been heard from
> in a very long time.
> Gaia is considered to be the mother of all the changing breeds.
> She's powerful beyond any stats. The Gifts the Garou use are all tied
> to her or other spirits, making them relatively stable. And Gaia's
> been asleep a very long time.
> Is it at all possible, strange as it may be, that Gaia and Lilith
> are one in the same?
>
> --
> Nash
In a Werewolf game absurd. In a Vampire game very possible.
--
Regards;
Daemeon
Billy Yeager
whatever was the creator of the planet, in some way or another, and that he
raised Lilith to his level as his lover, and that she had already become far
more than human, raising herself almost to his level with her eating the
fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
I have to grant that the Chritian God is really the equivalent of a
Celestine in Werewolf, he was obviously far more than that in the mythology
of Vampire, specifically in RotDM. Therefore it is certainly possible for
Lilith and Gaia to be the same entity; it is also entirely possible that
they are both merely representations of a greater being, like two different
faces of a god or goddess in human mythology. It is even plausible... it
makes a great deal of sense to create two different avatars to satisfy the
demands of two different supernatural species.
Besides if you wanted to get really technical, although Gaia created each
changing breed, certain Celetines, or Incarna influenced the development of
specific changing breeds to suit the needs both of Gaia, and themselves.
Therefore, in addition to any duties, and emotions directed towards Gaia,
certain breeds should also have an almost greater affection for their
Celestine.
"Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8el9dd$kno$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
AJSolis
the moon in australia, gaia can have lilith when she's in a really nasty mood.
Webwalker
> Webwalker wrote:
>> Did you order the pizza, Samiel?
>> >>
>> >>> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
>> >>equal to
>> >>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
>> >>Satan (and his
>> >>> equivalent)
>>
>> >>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
>>
>> > Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
>> > for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
>> > makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
>> > mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia.
>>
>> Didn't Gaia create the Triat? If so, than Gaia created the Wyrm, the
>> greatest "Demon" of them all.
> Er, no! Gaia is under the triat.
"All are of Gaia, even the Weaver, the Wyld and the Wyrm." All the
references are to Gaia being the Creator. I don't see how Gaia is *under*
the Triat. It doesn't exactly prove that Gaia *created* the Triat... but
I don't see how much in Werewolf puts Gaia *below* the Triat.
> See, you've got the Wyld, then the Wyld makes a copy of something, then
> you get the Weaver, then something is destroyed, then you Get the Wyrm.
> Gaia integrates all 3 principle, she creates, reproduces and destroys,
> all in one glorious and sacred cycle.
How does a being who does *all three* roles end up *below* the Triat?
> And Gaia was there before Lilith, Gaia is the earth.
How does this put Gaia *under* the Triat?
Mant
"Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Nash wrote in message <8ekqhk$vgf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >creations, or her predecessors?
>
differently).
Not to mention various Breed/Tribe books and other material. Really it
seems this one is very unclear.
> > It makes a frightening sort of sense,
> >especially considering both Gaia and Caine are expected to wake at
the
> >end of everything . . .
>
> News to me. Where do you get that Gaia's asleep, much less "expected
to wake at
> the end of everything"?
Or even Caine for that matter.
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> > It makes a frightening sort of sense,
> >especially considering both Gaia and Caine are expected to wake at
the
re-
> >match sometime around then?
>
> Book of Nod says Dark Mother, Lilith and Dark Father, not even
necessarily
> Caine, are going to fight it out. IMO Caine isn't even sleeping, he's
just kind
> chilling out walking around, fairly low key. Which is why I think
Saulot would
> fit the father of darkness, already claimed intent to over take
Caine, but
> never mentions Lilith, I bet she gets in the way of his plans and
that's the
> fight at Gehenna.
Won't be much of I fight.
"Hi I'm Salout, father of darkness"
*SPLAT*
3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different league.
> >Remember folks . . . just cause she's Mamma Earth doesn't means
> >she's all happy and shiny.
>
> But Gaia, is suppose to love all living creatures. (obviously
throwing out
> vampires)
In a very abstact way. She doesn't care about individual creature. And
very likely not even whole species given the repeated periods of mass
extinction (not just the dinosaurs) that happened.
In fact the Garou probably over estimate how much she cares about what
mankind has done, which when lokked at compared to the history of the
planet is squat. Mankind is in absolutely no danger whatsoever of
destorying life on the planet, altough the shifters may wind up extinct.
> >She made shit like rattlesnakes, tigers,
> >poison-dart frogs, and the Changing Breeds.
>
> There's a big difference in a leap from that to spawner of demons.
Gaia isn't
> good or bad, Gaia should be completly neutral, where as demons are
inhearantly
> evil, much as the vampires are. ::shrug::
Although vampires are not, in cannon, inherently evil. Justin said so
right on this newsgroup. As for demons, that depends on your definition.
To quote Satan from South Park "Without evil there is no good, so it
must be good to be evil sometimes".
Mant
"Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Billy Yeager wrote in message <8el1hn$6bp$1...@tribune.oar.net>...
> >Sorry that was a little off topic. I think that there is quite a bit
of
> >evidence to Lilith = Gaia. I think it was deliberately left vague so
that
> >storytellers could choose for themselves without specifically going
against
> >a book which might have published something else.
> >
>
> "The greatest spirit is Gaia. Below her is the Triat...The Realm-
> with Gaia and is bounded by Gaia. All things that exist within the
Tellurian
> are considered to be of Gaia, though some Garou would refute the
notion that
> evil beings are truly a part of Gaia....Below Gaia in cosmic power
are the
> mysterious, personified forced called the Wyld, the Weaver, and the
Wyrm."
>
> Page 177, Werewolf 2nd.
>
> That doesn't sound at all vague to me.
But that doesn't mean it true. IIRC it actually says somewhere before
that that it is just one take on the Cosmology. Certainly other books
present lots of different ideas, with the Triat first and two "Wyrms"
(Baset), or two Gaias, one after the other (Hengeyoki sp?).
> If, for some incomprehensible reason,
> you really want Gaia to be Lilith, you could argue that the main
Werewolf Second
> Edition book should be discounted, or that that section should be
read as IC and
> therefore no more binding than the Bastet belief that the Triat
created Gaia.
Certainly the latter. I see nothing to imply that it is right and the
various other shifter creation myths/beleifs are wrong. Probably they
are /all/ right in different ways since these beings are incomprensible
to the creates telling the stories.
Still Gaia does seem to be a local thing, she is the spirit of the
earth, while the Triat seem to represent more universal forces.
> However, from where I'm standing, there's no support at all for the
idea that
> Gaia is Lilith.
>
> It could be argued that there's support for the idea that
Gaia /might/ be under
> the Triat, but, unless you've read something I haven't (always a
possibility),
> there is less support for the idea that she is under the Triat than
there is for
> the idea that she's more than the Triat, and there's no support at
all for
> dogmatic claims that she is less than the Triat.
I'm sure some stuff does have her a less powerful, although its a long
time since I read all those werewolf books. Really though the Garou
have a very provential view of the universe. There is Gaia, and um..
some other stuff that doesn't matter much. I would consider anything in
werewolf stuff about how powerful she is as pretty much IC Gaian Garou
thoughts. I'm sure the BSDs think the Wyrm is greater than Gaia.
Mant
That doesn't mean its not possible though. I tend to think a Gaia as a
higher order of being than Lilith, but she could be an embodiement of
Gaia like Eshtara (sp?) or Gaia's Incarna.
Ethan Skemp
In article <390e5d50$0$19...@news.execpc.com>, kai...@earth.execpc.com
(Kaiden Fox) wrote:
> In article <8ekrqh$e5o$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> Kish <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>Nash wrote in message <8ekqhk$vgf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>
>>> Now, what I'm unclear on, are the Weaver, Wyrm, and Wyld Gaia's
>>>creations, or her predecessors?
>>
>>In Werewolf 2nd, her creations (though the Bastet believe differently).
>
> Damn. I thought that Gaia was a planetary spirit, like Jupiter or
> Venus. I thought that the Trait were like intellegent Forces of the
> Universe. Sort of like Gravity, only with personality. OK, I'm going
> back to Vampire where everything makes sense.
There *is* a planetary Incarna of Earth (Eshtarra), but she's kind of a
facet of Gaia. Gaia's pretty big.
The Tellurian, of course, is said to be bigger than Gaia; that's why there
are some werewolves searching for another, less imperiled Gaia somewhere out
there. Splitters.
Werewolf 2nd does indeed stress that Gaia is bigger than the Triat; but then
again, it's possible that the Triat is nearly Tellurian-sized, and that the
familiar incarnations of mad Weaver, corrupted Wyrm and red-headed stepchild
Wyld are how the three manifest in Gaia's realm. Or not.
Which all means that there's damn little in Werewolf that's really quite as
black-and-white as its detractors tend to assume.
(of course, this is in response to a thread that assumes that the Book of
Nod and RotDM are in fact *factual*, so you've pretty much got your choice
of what you prefer to believe)
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Samiel Spiral
>Saulot would
>> fit the father of darkness, already claimed intent to over take
>Caine, but
>> never mentions Lilith, I bet she gets in the way of his plans and
>that's the
>> fight at Gehenna.
>Won't be much of I fight.
>
>"Hi I'm Salout, father of darkness"
>
>*SPLAT*
>3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different league.
Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after Caine cursed
his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the last to
master life and death. Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
equal, and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique, therefore
isn't as god-like as portrayed.
Lilith isn't in a different league she's in another sport, like figureskating,
while Saulot is in hockey.
~Janus
SASA
James Kiley
>it's possible that the Triat is nearly Tellurian-sized, and that the
>familiar incarnations of mad Weaver, corrupted Wyrm and red-headed stepchild
>Wyld are how the three manifest in Gaia's realm. Or not.
This is pretty much my preferred cosmology for Werewolf; the Weaver,
Wyld, and Wyrm seem too much like universal forces and Gaia seems
too much like a single realm for me to think of it otherwise.
Which means, of course, that I ought to ponder more closely that
alternate possibility; if the Triat is less than Gaia, then how is
it that 2/3 (at least) of the Triat is slowly murdering her? What
do they have that she can't defend against? Hmm.
jk
Matthew aka Tiama'at
>Lilith isn't in a different league she's in another sport, like
>figureskating, while Saulot is in hockey.
Got the reversed - pansy whiny "but I want to be a God" Zao-lat has
taken at least 10 000 years just to get back at Caine, Lilith could
have easily wiped out Caine after the Flood (I mean wow - it only took
a complete ambush and a swarm of locusts (ie. Caine and his childer) to
kill the _6_ children). And some people thought the force used for
Elian was excessive.
--
Matthew Hickey aka Tiama'at ][ "in a moment we lost our minds here
matthe...@hotmail.com ][ and lay our spirit down
WS/Soc (H) IV - Carleton U (Can)][ today we lived a thousand years
ICQ: 12954569 (Tiama'at) ][ all we have is now" - Live
cthulhuslushee
aka Tiama'at <matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote:
>I can hear you, Samiel Spiral, can you hear me?
>>Lilith isn't in a different league she's in another sport, like
>>figureskating, while Saulot is in hockey.
>
>Got the reversed - pansy whiny "but I want to be a God" Zao-lat
has
>taken at least 10 000 years just to get back at Caine, Lilith
could
>have easily wiped out Caine after the Flood (I mean wow - it
only took
>a complete ambush and a swarm of locusts (ie. Caine and his
childer) to
>kill the _6_ children). And some people thought the force used
for
>Elian was excessive.
>
And Divis Mal could whoop both their asses 'cause he's uber kewl
and has that flashy outfit. :-)
I'd be less interested in who can beat who's ass, and more
interested in why the fight is taking place in the first place.
Sure, Saulot the prissy three eyed "I wanna be a demon" boy
seems to be trying hard to be a demon prince or whatever, but
how does that really provoke a conflict between him and lilith?
Lilith hates caine from most of the insinuations we've heard in
various places. She doesn't seem to have anything against
Saulot particularly, except that he would be a part of
Caine's "family". Hell, if you buy the whole "mother of demons"
story concerning Lilith, Saulot would be more likely to try to
kiss Lilith's ass than fight her, IMO. MIght as well get in
good with all your new friends' mommy and all that.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Samiel Spiral
>interested in why the fight is taking place in the first place.
Well, dealing with all the stories of Gehenna like in the BoN it talk about the
dark mother and dark father fighting, now most assume dark father to mean
Caine, but that would be too easy for any prophet, that's why I think it's
Saulot, because he's planning to over take Caine, and even God, but never
mentions Lilith, I think she gets in his way, and he's not about to roll over
for anyone at this point.
~Janus
SASA
Fyszt
Webwalker wrote:
> Did you order the pizza, Fyszt?
> > Webwalker wrote:
>
> >> Did you order the pizza, Samiel?
> >> >>
> >> >>> Actually, according to the Book of Madness, Gaia is considered to be
> >> >>equal to
> >> >>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
> >> >>Satan (and his
> >> >>> equivalent)
> >>
> >> >>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
> >>
> >> > Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of Nod is
> >> > for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say that
> >> > makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering Lilith is
> >> > mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia.
> >>
> >> Didn't Gaia create the Triat? If so, than Gaia created the Wyrm, the
> >> greatest "Demon" of them all.
>
> > Er, no! Gaia is under the triat.
>
> "All are of Gaia, even the Weaver, the Wyld and the Wyrm." All the
> references are to Gaia being the Creator. I don't see how Gaia is *under*
> the Triat. It doesn't exactly prove that Gaia *created* the Triat... but
> I don't see how much in Werewolf puts Gaia *below* the Triat.
Werewolf, second ed., p42, under Garou cosmology: Above all, say the Garou, stand
the lords of the Triat...
On the other hand it says on page 177 that "Below Gaia in cosmic power..." about the
triat...my bad.
>
>
> > See, you've got the Wyld, then the Wyld makes a copy of something, then
> > you get the Weaver, then something is destroyed, then you Get the Wyrm.
>
> > Gaia integrates all 3 principle, she creates, reproduces and destroys,
> > all in one glorious and sacred cycle.
>
> How does a being who does *all three* roles end up *below* the Triat?
Well, all 3 have to exist independantly of the one who borrows from them?
>
>
> > And Gaia was there before Lilith, Gaia is the earth.
>
> How does this put Gaia *under* the Triat?
That has nothing to do with the triat, its about Lilith being Gaia
Matthew aka Tiama'at
>And Divis Mal could whoop both their asses 'cause he's uber kewl
>and has that flashy outfit. :-)
Well, that went completely without saying! :)
>how does that really provoke a conflict between him and lilith?
Well, he is mentioned by name as being there at the destruction of
D'Hainu, the Garden of Redemption (and the murder of the children).
cthulhuslushee
>>And Divis Mal could whoop both their asses 'cause he's uber
kewl
>>and has that flashy outfit. :-)
>
>Well, that went completely without saying! :)
>
>>how does that really provoke a conflict between him and lilith?
>
>Well, he is mentioned by name as being there at the destruction
of
>D'Hainu, the Garden of Redemption (and the murder of the
children).
>
true. But IIRC, both he and Brujah were mentioned as being
those who stayed out of the fight. Its been a while since I
read it, and it is IC, but would Saulot at that point have still
been "hippie" saulot or "eeevvvilll" saulot?
Tina
> Gaia as a warm fuzzy loving mother nature is a very late 20th century idea.
> Nature is a bitch.
Hey, Mother Nature is warm, fuzzy, and loving when it's a nice summer day
with a good breeze and decent humidity. She just happens to have serious
mood swings. <g>
Trust me--I work in downtown Chicago. I know full well the meaning of the
words "lake effect."
Tina
Webwalker
>>Saulot would
>>> fit the father of darkness, already claimed intent to over take
>>Caine, but
>>> never mentions Lilith, I bet she gets in the way of his plans and
>>that's the
>>> fight at Gehenna.
>>Won't be much of I fight.
>>
>>"Hi I'm Salout, father of darkness"
>>
>>*SPLAT*
>>3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different league.
> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after Caine cursed
> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the last to
> master life and death. Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
> equal, and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique, therefore
> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
Why not? Look at ToTB: Ravnos - Caines *grandchilder* - is more than
equal to *3* Bodhisattvas. Whatever Caine wants to do, Caine does. How
is that *not* God-like? The way he's been portrayed, it's easy to see how
he'd be mistaken for the Wyrm; were I to put him into Werewolf cosmology,
he'd be an Avatar of the Wyrm, possibly even the "Eater of Souls" aspect.
Look at how the Croatan died; the were all eaten at once. Maybe
it's meant to be more literal that it seems? Maybe they all attacked
Caine at once, he started to drain them, found out that at 25BP per garou,
times X (100+, I'd imagine) equals more than he could handle, got a wee
bit overloaded and went back to sleep for a while.
> Lilith isn't in a different league she's in another sport, like figureskating,
> while Saulot is in hockey.
Erm... I'd use "Salout is a Boxer, while Lilith is an Ultimate Fighter."
rather than hockey and figureskating. And even then, I'd imagine that
Lilith (if she truly exists, her being then Incarna representation of
Rasputin and all [1]) wouldn't even notice is Salout tried anything with
her. She'd just go "That's nice, kid." and go back to reading her Cosmo.
[1] Her being the first Mage, Mother of the Changing Breeds, lover of
Jehovah and teacher of Caine, one of the original Hunters who degraded
into Vampires, the one who taught Charon how to change ectoplasmic diapers
and is the last of the Tuatha de Danan.
Mike Shannon
triat created Gaia then choose to live within her. This is why the Wyrm now
wants the triat to die, because within Gaia the cycle of life exist, so the
Triat can be reborn. "What do they have that she can't defend against?" The
Garou are her white blood cells, but they aren't getting the job done. Or
another way to look at it is in rl people often question why God doesn't do
something about all the evils of the world. In the WoD Gaia has many parts
that make up the whole. It could be that only the Celestine Gaia has any
true consciousness.
--
Mike
James Kiley <ten...@eris.io.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8gtqgh...@eris.io.com...
Webwalker
> In article <8F28A57A...@news-server.carleton.ca>, Matthew
> aka Tiama'at <matthe...@icqmail.com> wrote:
>>I can hear you, cthulhuslushee, can you hear me?
>>>And Divis Mal could whoop both their asses 'cause he's uber
> kewl
>>>and has that flashy outfit. :-)
>>
>>Well, that went completely without saying! :)
>>
>>>how does that really provoke a conflict between him and lilith?
>>
>>Well, he is mentioned by name as being there at the destruction
> of
>>D'Hainu, the Garden of Redemption (and the murder of the
> children).
>>
> true. But IIRC, both he and Brujah were mentioned as being
> those who stayed out of the fight. Its been a while since I
> read it, and it is IC, but would Saulot at that point have still
> been "hippie" saulot or "eeevvvilll" saulot?
No, actually, it was "Nosferatu and Toreador" who "For they veiled the
faces/ of the slain ones"... "Gave solace to the mother of the dead." Not
Salout and Brujah.
Kaiden Fox
I found an interesting resource on different styles.
http://microbiol.org/vl.martial.arts/toc.htm
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Billy Yeager
Third Generation. That is one theory of how the Salubri gained the third
eye, Caine gifted him with it so that all other clans would recognize that
clan as being "blessed". Although one could argue that Saulot REALLY got the
third eye when he studied under the Arhat Xue, and based Valeren and Obeah
off of Chi'iu Muh.
Getting back to the argument that Brujah and Saulot remained outside of the
pillaging of D'Hainu... Saulot only "became" a warrior when his childer were
killed by the Baali, also his childer. It makes me wonder whether his
involvement in the destruction of D'Hainu is intentionally ignored in the
Book of Nod, and the Erciyes Fragment; if so was it because of his
manipulations to appear innocuous? Or did he truly not become evil until he
discovered that Caine had "betrayed" them by becoming frozen at one point of
the cycle, when he studied in the East.
Hmm.... then you have to wonder his intentions at creating the Baali, and
having his own clan hunted almost to extinction by the Tremere, whom he
controlled a great deal of the time. Was he really only trying to create an
bloodline that would help him to become Demon Emperor? or was he really
trying to create a martial clan more reminiscent of the Salubri antitribu of
the Sabbat?
As for whether he would be able to stand up to Lilith in a fight....
probably. I only say this on the assumption that he actually won the throne
of the Demon Emperor. If that was the case, he would have already defeated
several spirits (Yama Kings) who were the equivalent of gods, certainly
Incarna, a couple probably are Celestines. If he were able to do that, I
would assume that he would probably stand a better chance than most people
think. I don't know whether he would actually need to fight Lilith or not...
if he is destroying vampires, which he would almost certainly take the
opportunity to do, specifically the Tremere, any remaining Salubri, possibly
other clans, Lilith would be satisfied that he was exacting her revenge, and
would probably not become involved. Ditto for Caine, again assuming that
Saulot hadn't already destroyed him in the process of gaining the throne.
Sorry for the length of this message; I like this thread, as far off topic
as it has gone :-)
"Webwalker" <wander...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8enib7$4mm$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca...
Matthew aka Tiama'at
>Saulot only stayed out of the battle between the Second Generation and
>the Third Generation.
So the books say - we have a pretty good reason to believe that he
either wrote one of those books or had started his Jyhad by then.
>Getting back to the argument that Brujah and Saulot remained outside
>of the pillaging of D'Hainu... Saulot only "became" a warrior when his
>childer were killed by the Baali, also his childer.
So he has told his childer. But he has been called the 'Warlord' a few
times now so that can be called into question.
It makes me wonder whether his
>involvement in the destruction of D'Hainu is intentionally ignored in
>the Book of Nod, and the Erciyes Fragment; if so was it because of his
>manipulations to appear innocuous?
D'Hainu and Lilith is mostly ignored by all Cainite histories. But
upon doing some reading that might be because the destruction of the
Garden occurred before the Biblical Flood and no one except for the
Antideluvians and Caine may know about it - and from their point of
view its hardly worth mentioning (oh yeah, and we destroyed this
village about 8000 years ago).
>Hmm.... then you have to wonder his intentions at creating the Baali,
Practice.
>having his own clan hunted almost to extinction by the Tremere, whom
>he controlled a great deal of the time.
1) could have been an action by Tremere to destroy the bloodline once
he realized what was going on in his head.
2) setting his clan up as sacrifical lambs so as to reinforce the idea
of Saulot as the Christ-like healer.
3) erasing a tool discarded as no longer useful
>As for whether he would be able to stand up to Lilith in a fight....
>probably.
I'm still not convinced - he's a vampire, a very powerful one but
essentially something less than Caine - who was born from Eve with the
burden of the post-Eden curses on him - mortal, unable to know the
fruits of Knowledge. Lilith has both those fruits and the fruits of
Life and Death - plus she predates him in pure lived experience. He
could hold his own - for a while - but it would only be delaying the
inevitable.
>other clans, Lilith would be satisfied that he was exacting her
>revenge, and
Caine and his 'tribe' killed her tribe - her thirst for vengence will
not stop until he and his tribe have paid in blood (esp. since Saulot,
no matter how much fratricide he engages in, has paid for the murder of
her children).
Samiel Spiral
>>probably.
>I'm still not convinced - he's a vampire, a very powerful one but
>essentially something less than Caine - who was born from Eve with the
>burden of the post-Eden curses on him - mortal, unable to know the
>fruits of Knowledge>Lilith has both those fruits and the fruits of
>Life and Death -
But it's not very convincing to side with Lilith unless you believe she is a
vampire as so many do too. After all Caine is something more then she is,
damned from the moment of conception he was already different from Lilith, who
most certainly wasn't perfect despite being created by God's hand.
And Caine has his own master of Unlife and Death. Given the context of our
debate, and no I'm not invoking BoN as fact (but considering we are discussing
Lilith it's about as close as we can come) but Lilith while awakening Caine
says "hey Caine stop you are getting to powerful (i.e. more powerful then
herself) and then he broke free of her, so at that point he certainly seems
above her, but as far different as she is now, it would be even more different
then compairing KoTE with Caine's lineage.
But as for Saulot, that's one reason why I would think he has a sporting chance
against her, she's not all powerful, but then neither is Caine, but to us they
might as well be. But even as old as Lilith is, she can only experience so much
as any one being can. Now Saulot took unique understanding of certain ideals
that he studied... the soul Valeren his studies in the east ect... an extensive
base of knowledge that Lilith could learn but then wouldn't ever catch up to
him in that area, which is why he would have some kind of edge. He has to have
something if he believes he can so easily take Caine after all.
Then again when dealing with nigh-infnite beings any fight just ends in no real
results between them which I think is the most likely.
~Janus
SASA
Mant
ten...@eris.io.com (James Kiley) wrote:
> Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >it's possible that the Triat is nearly Tellurian-sized, and that the
> >familiar incarnations of mad Weaver, corrupted Wyrm and red-headed
stepchild
> >Wyld are how the three manifest in Gaia's realm. Or not.
>
> This is pretty much my preferred cosmology for Werewolf; the Weaver,
> Wyld, and Wyrm seem too much like universal forces and Gaia seems
> too much like a single realm for me to think of it otherwise.
>
> Which means, of course, that I ought to ponder more closely that
> alternate possibility; if the Triat is less than Gaia, then how is
> it that 2/3 (at least) of the Triat is slowly murdering her? What
> do they have that she can't defend against? Hmm.
Nothing. How do you kill a planet? Other planetary Celtestine like Luna
and Helios manage just fine without life. Not that life is in any
danger of being wiped out, the impact mankind has had on the earth is
nothing compared to environmental changes and calameties the planet has
been though, one creatues poision is anothers essential. Most species
that existed where extinct before mankind even evolved.
Of course the Garou are in danger of dying, but Gaia looks just fine to
me.
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >Which is why I think
> >Saulot would
> >> fit the father of darkness, already claimed intent to over take
> >Caine, but
> >> never mentions Lilith, I bet she gets in the way of his plans and
> >that's the
> >> fight at Gehenna.
>
> >Won't be much of I fight.
> >
> >"Hi I'm Salout, father of darkness"
> >
> >*SPLAT*
>
> >3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different
league.
>
> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after
Caine cursed
> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
last to
> master life and death.
They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
> equal,
Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more powerful
than they were.
> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique,
therefore
> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
Unqiue != god-like.
I'm not even sure Caine is necessacirly more powerful in a butt-kicking
way but he was the son of adam and eve and cursed by God and the
Archangels
> Lilith isn't in a different league she's in another sport, like
figureskating,
> while Saulot is in hockey.
Go beyond the world of darkness a bit and you find Lilith as the the
handmaiden to God's feminine aspect, the lover of God, the Devil/Samiel
(sp?) and a whole lot of other things. Salout may be an uber-vampire
but Lilith was personally created by God and left the Garden of Eden
without eating from either tree. To me it puts her in a different
league.
It possible Salout can become something more, the Demon Emporer, as
Cappadious sort to ascend to god-hood. In that case he might be a
contender.
Of course the BoN is all vague prophicy and and allagorey anyway.
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >>As for whether he would be able to stand up to Lilith in a fight....
> >>probably.
>
> >I'm still not convinced - he's a vampire, a very powerful one but
> >essentially something less than Caine - who was born from Eve with
the
> >burden of the post-Eden curses on him - mortal, unable to know the
> >fruits of Knowledge>Lilith has both those fruits and the fruits of
> >Life and Death -
>
> But it's not very convincing to side with Lilith unless you believe
she is a
> vampire as so many do too.
I thinks its more convincing if you beleive she is not. There are far
more powerful things out there than vampires.
> After all Caine is something more then she is,
> damned from the moment of conception he was already different from
Lilith, who
> most certainly wasn't perfect despite being created by God's hand.
Why damned from the moment of conception? No more so than any human.
<snip>
> But as for Saulot, that's one reason why I would think he has a
sporting chance
> against her, she's not all powerful, but then neither is Caine, but
to us they
> might as well be. But even as old as Lilith is, she can only
experience so much
> as any one being can.
Um yeah, diito anyone.
> Now Saulot took unique understanding of certain ideals
> that he studied... the soul Valeren his studies in the east ect... an
extensive
> base of knowledge that Lilith could learn but then wouldn't ever
catch up to
> him in that area, which is why he would have some kind of edge.
What makes you think that? The east must be more enlightned and Lilith
couldn't possibly know the same stuff (or more) by staying home? On
pasted record she probably /slept/ with Xue, she has with everyone else
important it seems.
> He has to have
> something if he believes he can so easily take Caine after all.
Meglomania?
> Then again when dealing with nigh-infnite beings any fight just ends
in no real
> results between them which I think is the most likely.
Not really. Gods can beat other Gods, Lucifer can be cast down from
heaven.
Kaiden Fox
>Nothing. How do you kill a planet? Other planetary Celtestine like Luna
>and Helios manage just fine without life. Not that life is in any
>danger of being wiped out, the impact mankind has had on the earth is
>nothing compared to environmental changes and calameties the planet has
>been though, one creatues poision is anothers essential. Most species
>that existed where extinct before mankind even evolved.
I'm not sure exactly how you'd focus a chronicle on Invisable, Unfightable
Horror, but here is something to chew on. Have you ever seen comercials
for the candy bar "Bar None?" Their slogan was, "Unleash the Chocolate
Monster." One of my friends had a gastro-intestinal infection and was on
antibiotics. The doctor told her that she might start having cravings for
chocolate, but that she shouldn't eat it, because it would make her
sicker. My friend, being an epidimiologist, knew exactly what that meant.
It meant that the bacterial life-forms in her intestines had the ability
to cause her multicellular and highly complex nervious system to WANT
chocolate.
Here's how it fits into the "poison/essentials" dialectic. Billions (or
or maby just hundreds of millions) of years ago, a new lifeform emerged
that completely destroyed the environment by pumping out a deadly toxin
into the atmosphere. That toxin was oxygen. It changed the way life on
earth works. What mankind is doing, or rather undoing, is this oxygen
revolution. Perhaps the same power that allows microbes to cause YOU to
desire chocolate is responsible for causing mankind to "destroy" the
environment.
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Samiel Spiral
>league.
>> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after
>Caine cursed
>> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
>last to
>> master life and death.
>
>They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
>> Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
>> equal,
>
>Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more powerful
>than they were.
>
And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
>
>> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique,
>therefore
>> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
>
>Unqiue != god-like.
Not no but hell no.
>Go beyond the world of darkness a bit and you find Lilith as the the
>handmaiden to God's feminine aspect, the lover of God, the Devil/Samiel
>(sp?) and a whole lot of other things.
All myths not the WoD, much like the origional topic of just what Gaia is,
certainly the true aspects don't fit Lilith but the ideas of the WoD can.
Certainly not a lover to God as in judeo-christian world, maybe the "devil" who
is only really the angel of temptation anyway, all that fallen angle stuff is
just crap.
>Salout may be an uber-vampire
>but Lilith was personally created by God and left the Garden of Eden
>without eating from either tree. To me it puts her in a different
>league.
Ok so she didn't eat of the trees making her stupid as well as cursed. But as
one of Caines, I think he certainly has a good chance, different leagues yes
but nothing that can be really compaired.
~Janus
SASA
Samiel Spiral
>> >essentially something less than Caine - who was born from Eve with
>the
>> >burden of the post-Eden curses on him - mortal, unable to know the
>> >fruits of Knowledge>Lilith has both those fruits and the fruits of
>> >Life and Death -
>> But it's not very convincing to side with Lilith unless you believe
>she is a
>> vampire as so many do too.
>
>I thinks its more convincing if you beleive she is not. There are far
>more powerful things out there than vampires.
Agreed.
>> After all Caine is something more then she is,
>> damned from the moment of conception he was already different from
>Lilith, who
>> most certainly wasn't perfect despite being created by God's hand.
>Why damned from the moment of conception? No more so than any human.
>
Right born with origional sin, that's different from Lilith.
>> Now Saulot took unique understanding of certain ideals
>> that he studied... the soul Valeren his studies in the east ect... an
>extensive
>> base of knowledge that Lilith could learn but then wouldn't ever
>catch up to
>> him in that area, which is why he would have some kind of edge.
>
>What makes you think that? The east must be more enlightned and Lilith
>couldn't possibly know the same stuff (or more) by staying home? On
>pasted record she probably /slept/ with Xue, she has with everyone else
>important it seems.
>
Because she can only experience so much at once even give being around since,
well the beginning. She can't be everywhere at once therefor still has limited
knowledge and was more then likely persuing interests of other things.
>> He has to have
>> something if he believes he can so easily take Caine after all.
>
>Meglomania?
That too.
>> Then again when dealing with nigh-infnite beings any fight just ends
>in no real
>> results between them which I think is the most likely.
>
>Not really. Gods can beat other Gods, Lucifer can be cast down from
>heaven.
Gods can't really beat other Gods. A god is by definition and infinite being,
and infinity - infinity is still infinity, in other words none could ever
otherpower another.
And Lucifer was most certainly *not* a God, and sunday school teacher will tell
you that. But even if he was it would prove why he wasn't destroyed by God. But
no, he's just the angle of tempation, that's covered on the other post.
~Janus
SASA
Billy Yeager
{snip}
> They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
But one has to wonder if that was deliberate. It certainly was on the part
of both Cappadocius, and Saulot. Saulot so he could disappear, and maybe
pull one over on the rest of the 3rd gens, and cappadocius so that he could
experience the "Holy Spirit" portion of existence before continuing on to
diablerize God. These two examples make me think that Brujah might also have
deliberately allowed him/herself? to be diablerized. Lasombra was the same
way, Gratiano was allowed to commit Amaranth on the clan founder, in the
same way that Tzimisce wasn't destroyed, but destroyed Lugoj, and
fleshcrafted himself to be indentical to Lugoj.
> Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more powerful
> than they were.
Of course Caine was more powerful than them, besides having training from
Lilith, he was the first murderer, and God forbade any Man from killing him.
Also need to remember that the 3rd generation couldn't have been very old
when they killed their sires, it WAS before the Flood, therefore they might
not have learned the extent of their powers yet.
> without eating from either tree.
She actually ate from both trees, not neither. It was eventually part of the
reason that God tried to exile her, and why she eventually chose to leave.
Webwalker
>>> >3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different
>>league.
>>> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after
>>Caine cursed
>>> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
>>last to
>>> master life and death.
>>
>>They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
Three; Brujah, Lasombra and Ravnos. There hasn't been anything to
contradict any of their deaths *yet*.
>>> Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
>>> equal,
>>
>>Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more powerful
>>than they were.
>>
> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
Was he? The BoN seems to imply this, but then, the BoN is also written
about Caine, not about Lillith. RotDM seems to paint them as somewhat
more equal, with Lillith being above Caine somewhat.
But the question is moot anyway. It doesn't matter how powerful
Lillith is, if she's more powerful than Salout, or than Caine, or
whatever. Only God can kill Caine. Personally, I see Caine as something
like a Highlander (from the movies/tv show, not RPG); he doesn't age, has
no real powers, and never dies. You cut off his head, it just goes right
back on. You blow him up with a nuke, he reforms in the center of the
blast damage, and walks out, dying of radiation sickness and being reborn
as he walks. Etc. How he created the Kindred is a mystery... if he even
created the Kindred at all.
>>Salout may be an uber-vampire
>>but Lilith was personally created by God and left the Garden of Eden
>>without eating from either tree. To me it puts her in a different
>>league.
> Ok so she didn't eat of the trees making her stupid as well as cursed. But as
> one of Caines, I think he certainly has a good chance, different leagues yes
> but nothing that can be really compaired.
She ate from both trees, according to RotDM. As for different leagues...
God cursed Caine to live forever. There really isn't anything higher in
Cainite mythology than God. So nothing is going to kill Caine, without
God's blessing. (And since I don't think Salout will get God's
blessing...) Lillith is a creature so different from any Vampire as to be
incomparable to *any* Vampire. It's like comparing a starting Mage,
Vampire and Werewolf.
Samiel Spiral
>
>Three; Brujah, Lasombra and Ravnos. There hasn't been anything to
>contradict any of their deaths *yet*.
At most the only anyone can get canon from is Ravnos. Brujah seems really
likely, but Lasombra is still very questionable, ain't that right Bruce?
>Only God can kill Caine
Well yeah now, in the past anyone could have killed Caine it's just that would
have invoked the wrath of God, but now I'm sure he's at a point where even if
he wanted no one could do it.
~Janus
SASA
Eric Tolle
> Got the reversed - pansy whiny "but I want to be a God" Zao-lat has
> taken at least 10 000 years just to get back at Caine, Lilith could
> have easily wiped out Caine after the Flood (I mean wow - it only took
So says the LilithCo PR department. Of course if you listen to
them, they'll also sell you a nice set of land in the Everglades,
and a large bridge just outside of San Francisco.
It's pretty safe to assume that any written IC document was created
with an agenda of getting the reader to believe what the writer wants
them to believe. In other words, propaganda and lies.
Now myself, I know the ABSOLUTE UTTER TRUTH is that Caine and
Lilith have both retired to a trailer park outside of Phoenix
Arizona, where they bitch that the grand kids never visit.
And I'd tell you about the plastic pink flamengos, but then I'd have
to kill you. Really.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA,
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!
Matthew aka Tiama'at
>>> damned from the moment of conception he was already different from
>>Lilith, who
>>> most certainly wasn't perfect despite being created by God's hand.
>
>>Why damned from the moment of conception? No more so than any human.
>>
>
>Right born with origional sin, that's different from Lilith.
Who was, at the time of the Fall of Eden, was equal to her Creator (at
least had the potential to be, if not in possession of the maturity to
use it fully) - something Caine wants to be seen as, but nothing has
said he reached that potential - plus, even if Caine attained that
power, again Saulot/Zao-Lat is weaker than Caine (if only by learning
everything third hand).
>>What makes you think that? The east must be more enlightned and
>>Lilith couldn't possibly know the same stuff (or more) by staying
>>home? On pasted record she probably /slept/ with Xue, she has with
>>everyone else important it seems.
>>
>
>Because she can only experience so much at once even give being around
>since, well the beginning. She can't be everywhere at once therefor
>still has limited knowledge and was more then likely persuing
>interests of other things.
But if the beginning (year X so to speak) was 10 000 years before the
mortal Saulot ever met Caine (who was Cursed for Abel's murder 5000
years after X), then Lilith would have: X + 10000 more years of
existing with her powers than Saulot X + 5000 more years of existance
more than Caine.
Think about the arguments over the Maturation for Vampires - if people
are arguing that 15 Maturation points is too little for a 100 year jump
for vampire elders, than how many sheer points is Lilith going to have
accumulated before Saulot was even a gleam in his father's eye?
>>> He has to have
>>> something if he believes he can so easily take Caine after all.
>>
>>Meglomania?
>
>That too.
Meglomania vs. certainty - I'll go with the sure thing.
>>Not really. Gods can beat other Gods, Lucifer can be cast down from
>>heaven.
By the theology being debated here there was no 'Heaven' for Lucifer to
be thrown from - everyone involved in Eden was cursed - [YHWH], Lilith,
Lucifer, Adam, Eve.
>Gods can't really beat other Gods. A god is by definition and infinite
>being, and infinity - infinity is still infinity, in other words none
>could ever otherpower another.
Gods are not infinite - we are not talking about Monotheism here.
>And Lucifer was most certainly *not* a God, and sunday school teacher
According to the mythology YHWH was "first among equals" [the ELOHIM]
not the "supreme being" that his cult has made him out to be millenia
after the fact.
cthulhuslushee
and what exactly makes saulot's training superior to Lilith's?
Saulot learned from the KoE. Lilith learned at least in part
from God. If I had to chose between the two, I'd probably go
wtih god for training.
>But if the beginning (year X so to speak) was 10 000 years
before the
>mortal Saulot ever met Caine (who was Cursed for Abel's murder
5000
>years after X), then Lilith would have: X + 10000 more years of
>existing with her powers than Saulot X + 5000 more years of
existance
>more than Caine.
>
>Think about the arguments over the Maturation for Vampires - if
people
>are arguing that 15 Maturation points is too little for a 100
year jump
>for vampire elders, than how many sheer points is Lilith going
to have
>accumulated before Saulot was even a gleam in his father's eye?
>
One could wonder how much relative difference there is in power
when you get that high. Seems if either Lilith or Caine were
that absurdly more powerful than the other, given their possible
antagonism, one would have dealt with the other by now...
>>>> He has to have
>>>> something if he believes he can so easily take Caine after
all.
>>>
>>>Meglomania?
>>
>>That too.
>
>Meglomania vs. certainty - I'll go with the sure thing.
>
>>>Not really. Gods can beat other Gods, Lucifer can be cast
down from
>>>heaven.
>
>By the theology being debated here there was no 'Heaven' for
Lucifer to
>be thrown from - everyone involved in Eden was cursed - [YHWH],
Lilith,
>Lucifer, Adam, Eve.
>
>>Gods can't really beat other Gods. A god is by definition and
infinite
>>being, and infinity - infinity is still infinity, in other
words none
>>could ever otherpower another.
>
>Gods are not infinite - we are not talking about Monotheism
here.
>
And even in monotheism...remember, cappadocius was trying to
ascend to godhead. Whether his plan ever would have really
worked, I don't think has ever been said in canon, but there's
at least the possibility. Even in monotheism, there can be
fallibility on the part of god. Even if theologians argue that
the judaic god must be infallible, one could argue that certain
passages in the bible seem to indicate otherwise.
>>And Lucifer was most certainly *not* a God, and sunday school
teacher
>
>According to the mythology YHWH was "first among equals" [the
ELOHIM]
>not the "supreme being" that his cult has made him out to be
millenia
>after the fact.
>
er...possibly. In WoD canon that seems likely. In RL, its
pretty heavily debateable. Most of the passages that supporters
of this theory cite don't definitely *prove* that the ancient
forms of the religion accepted the existance of multiple gods.
They are ambiguous enough to make it a possibility though.
Billy Yeager
kill Caine. God doesn't say any human who kills Caine will have revenge
visited sevenfold, God just says that no MAN can kill Caine. Where does that
leave a woman?
"Samiel Spiral" <samiel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000503190701...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Samiel Spiral
>Saulot learned from the KoE. Lilith learned at least in part
>from God.
Nothing says she learned from God, as per WW. In fact she was cast out and took
what she had attained, so it would be self-taught over what Saulot had.
>One could wonder how much relative difference there is in power
>when you get that high. Seems if either Lilith or Caine were
>that absurdly more powerful than the other, given their possible
>antagonism, one would have dealt with the other by now...
That's the point that I make about Caine.
>>Gods are not infinite - we are not talking about Monotheism
>here.
>>
Yes we are, we are talking about the world created by God (note the capital
"G") and his power as an all-knowing and all-powerful being.
>Even in monotheism, there can be
>fallibility on the part of god. Even if theologians argue that
>the judaic god must be infallible, one could argue that certain
>passages in the bible seem to indicate otherwise.
No, it's not an arguement if God is a fuck up, cause that's for damn sure, God
made mistakes all over the place.
>>According to the mythology YHWH was "first among equals" [the
>ELOHIM]
>>not the "supreme being" that his cult has made him out to be
>millenia
>>after the fact.
>er...possibly. In WoD canon that seems likely. In RL, its
>pretty heavily debateable.
I think it's actually the other way. Canon never cites the "possibility" of
these others, rather relys on the Christain built world by God... now what we
know to be true, i.e. the debates going on about historical beliefs and the
like is what is still the question. Of course it's open to each persons
chronicle, but as for canon that's the way the wind blows.
But still Satan is not a god, but a helper of God, it's just that well one
can't expect great translations after so long, besides makes for a much more
interesting story, or at worst it proves that god's can't destroy each other or
God would have rid us of Satan long ago.
As for on-topic... no Lilith isn't Gaia, Caine isn't the Wyrm, they are both
most certainly lesser beings.
~Janus
SASA
Matthew aka Tiama'at
>Matthew aka Tiama'at wrote:
>> Got the reversed - pansy whiny "but I want to be a God" Zao-lat has
>> taken at least 10 000 years just to get back at Caine, Lilith could
>> have easily wiped out Caine after the Flood (I mean wow - it only
>> took
>
>So says the LilithCo PR department. Of course if you listen to
>them, they'll also sell you a nice set of land in the Everglades,
>and a large bridge just outside of San Francisco.
>
>It's pretty safe to assume that any written IC document was created
>with an agenda of getting the reader to believe what the writer wants
>them to believe. In other words, propaganda and lies.
Yup.
>Now myself, I know the ABSOLUTE UTTER TRUTH is that Caine and
>Lilith have both retired to a trailer park outside of Phoenix
>Arizona, where they bitch that the grand kids never visit.
My 0.02$ - she got her revenge - the Flood (and Caine thought it was
God's doing). I love the idea that the prophecy we are just hearing
about now was all fulfilled eons ago but, like those email urban
legends (like that kid in England with the damn postcards), everyone
thinks it hasn't happened yet.
Dswynne
>
>> Got the reversed - pansy whiny "but I want to be a God" Zao-lat has
>> taken at least 10 000 years just to get back at Caine, Lilith could
>> have easily wiped out Caine after the Flood (I mean wow - it only took
>
>So says the LilithCo PR department. Of course if you listen to
>them, they'll also sell you a nice set of land in the Everglades,
>and a large bridge just outside of San Francisco.
>
>It's pretty safe to assume that any written IC document was created
>with an agenda of getting the reader to believe what the writer wants
>them to believe. In other words, propaganda and lies.
>
>Lilith have both retired to a trailer park outside of Phoenix
>Arizona, where they bitch that the grand kids never visit.
>
>to kill you. Really.
>
This scenario would certainly shake up the WoD for sure!
>
>--
>
>Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
>People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.
>Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA,
>and now everybody who is somebody uses it!
>
"In the end, there can be only one, and it may as well be me!"-Kenny (from
Highlander: The Series)
Bruce Baugh
>At most the only anyone can get canon from is Ravnos. Brujah seems really
>likely, but Lasombra is still very questionable, ain't that right Bruce?
There are interesting discrepancies in the accounts. A suspicious reader
could diagnose a lot of Dominate going on.
Of course, a lot of Dominate _was_ going on. It's the Lasombra, after
all. The question is whether any of that has bearing on the
antediluvian's actual destuction.
--
Bruce Baugh / bruce...@sff.net
http://bruce-baugh.users.spiretech.com/ - finally, small but current.
"Never let it be be said, especially by large men with big guns,
that I failed to help." - Dave Weinstein
dagon
be orthodox jews?
Quoting verse & chapter?
Hah!
Samiel Spiral
>kill Caine.
It was suggested in Fragments.
>God doesn't say any human who kills Caine will have revenge
>visited sevenfold, God just says that no MAN can kill Caine. Where does that
>leave a woman?
That also assumes the BoN or Fragments interpertation, the bible actually says
"any one who slays Caine" the one instance that it's not sexist.
~Janus
SASA
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
<snip>
> >What makes you think that? The east must be more enlightned and
Lilith
> >couldn't possibly know the same stuff (or more) by staying home? On
> >pasted record she probably /slept/ with Xue, she has with everyone
else
> >important it seems.
> >
>
> Because she can only experience so much at once even give being
around since,
> well the beginning. She can't be everywhere at once therefor still
has limited
> knowledge and was more then likely persuing interests of other things.
That goes for Salout too, and Caine and everybody else.
> >> Then again when dealing with nigh-infnite beings any fight just
ends
> >in no real
> >> results between them which I think is the most likely.
> >
>
> >Not really. Gods can beat other Gods, Lucifer can be cast down from
> >heaven.
>
> Gods can't really beat other Gods. A god is by definition and
infinite being,
> and infinity - infinity is still infinity, in other words none could
ever
> otherpower another.
No, that is very much not a definition of a God, only a defination of
the Christian God (and not even the old testement one). Check out
Greek, Egyptian or Norse mythology for examples of Gods and beings of
that level of power (like Titans) killing and defeating other Gods.
> And Lucifer was most certainly *not* a God, and sunday school teacher
will tell
> you that.
Never claimed he was.
> But even if he was it would prove why he wasn't destroyed by God. But
> no, he's just the angle of tempation, that's covered on the other
post.
He was howver a being of immense power defeated by another being of
roughly equal immense power (Archangle Micheal) quite convincingly.
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >and what exactly makes saulot's training superior to Lilith's?
> >Saulot learned from the KoE. Lilith learned at least in part
> >from God.
>
> Nothing says she learned from God, as per WW. In fact she was cast
out and took
> what she had attained, so it would be self-taught over what Saulot
had.
And who did Saulot learn from? Caine and Xue, and Lililth taugh Caine.
Hell Xue was probably self-taught too. _Someone_ has to be first to
figure stuff out.
> >One could wonder how much relative difference there is in power
> >when you get that high. Seems if either Lilith or Caine were
> >that absurdly more powerful than the other, given their possible
> >antagonism, one would have dealt with the other by now...
>
> That's the point that I make about Caine.
>
> >>Gods are not infinite - we are not talking about Monotheism
> >here.
> >>
>
> Yes we are, we are talking about the world created by God (note the
capital
> "G") and his power as an all-knowing and all-powerful being.
No, we were talking about powerful beings. You claimed that battles
between two very powerful beings were likely to be inconclusive. I said
no, and cited Gods (not God) as an example. Mythology is full of very
powerful beings soundly losing to others.
> >>According to the mythology YHWH was "first among equals" [the
> >ELOHIM]
> >>not the "supreme being" that his cult has made him out to be
> >millenia
> >>after the fact.
>
> >er...possibly. In WoD canon that seems likely. In RL, its
> >pretty heavily debateable.
>
> I think it's actually the other way. Canon never cites
the "possibility" of
> these others, rather relys on the Christain built world by God... now
what we
> know to be true, i.e. the debates going on about historical beliefs
and the
> like is what is still the question. Of course it's open to each
persons
> chronicle, but as for canon that's the way the wind blows.
Nope. Read the chat with Justin on the White Wolf website about the
nature of God in Vampire.
> But still Satan is not a god, but a helper of God, it's just that
well one
> can't expect great translations after so long, besides makes for a
much more
> interesting story, or at worst it proves that god's can't destroy
each other or
> God would have rid us of Satan long ago.
Lucifer lost to another Archangle though, again it was an example of
two immensly powerful beings figthing and with fairly conclusive
results. (Lucifer doesn't die but is pithced out of heaven).
> As for on-topic... no Lilith isn't Gaia, Caine isn't the Wyrm, they
are both
> most certainly lesser beings.
No argument there. ALthough I could see Lilith as an apect of Gaia. Its
not suported in canon (although BoN and RoDM aren't fact in canon
anyway) but not ruled out and can work.
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >> >3rd generation is hard and all, but Lillith is a whole different
> >league.
>
> >> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after
> >Caine cursed
> >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
> >last to
> >> master life and death.
> >
> >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
>
Its enough to disprove the "master of life and death" thing.
And you forgot Cappadocius.
> >> Fragments seems to point to the fact that they are all
> >> equal,
> >
> >Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more
powerful
> >than they were.
> >
>
> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
> >
> >> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique,
> >therefore
> >> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
> >
> >Unqiue != god-like.
>
> Not no but hell no.
Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
> >Go beyond the world of darkness a bit and you find Lilith as the the
> >handmaiden to God's feminine aspect, the lover of God, the
Devil/Samiel
> >(sp?) and a whole lot of other things.
>
> All myths not the WoD, much like the origional topic of just what
Gaia is,
> certainly the true aspects don't fit Lilith but the ideas of the WoD
can.
But all we have about Lilith are Vampre, Mage etc myths. I see no
reason why in the WoD they should be anymore relaible than human ones.
> Certainly not a lover to God as in judeo-christian world, maybe
the "devil" who
> is only really the angel of temptation anyway, all that fallen angle
stuff is
> just crap.
No, it just came about later. The devil was a combination of the angle
of temptation and ideas and figures from other religions like Ahriman.
That doesn't make it "crap", just something that came along later, but
all relgions evlove and change. Concepts of the nature of God have
changed to, but that doesn't make them "crap".
Mant
<snip>
> >>Who? Clearly Caine could curse the 3rd generation and was more
powerful
> >>than they were.
> >>
> > And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
>
> Was he? The BoN seems to imply this, but then, the BoN is also
written
> about Caine, not about Lillith. RotDM seems to paint them as somewhat
> more equal, with Lillith being above Caine somewhat.
> But the question is moot anyway. It doesn't matter how powerful
> Lillith is, if she's more powerful than Salout, or than Caine, or
> whatever. Only God can kill Caine. Personally, I see Caine as
something
> like a Highlander (from the movies/tv show, not RPG); he doesn't age,
has
> no real powers, and never dies. You cut off his head, it just goes
right
> back on. You blow him up with a nuke, he reforms in the center of the
> blast damage, and walks out, dying of radiation sickness and being
reborn
> as he walks. Etc. How he created the Kindred is a mystery... if he
even
> created the Kindred at all.
Well acording to the bible he can, becuase anyone who kills him
recieves his curse sevenfold. Its not that you can't kill him, its that
its a really bad idea.
Certainly some WoD mythology backs up him having powers.
Angela Christine
>Nothing. How do you kill a planet? Other planetary Celtestine like Luna
>and Helios manage just fine without life.
Bah, we can't be sure of that. We certainly couldn't live unaided on
the moon or in the sun, but that doesn't mean that no form of life
could. Since the environment of each planet is radically different,
presumably the life on each world would also be different. We might not
recognise lunar life forms if one jumped up and bit us (which it
wouldn't, 'cause we'd be undigestible).
>Not that life is in any
>danger of being wiped out, the impact mankind has had on the earth is
>nothing compared to environmental changes and calameties the planet has
>been though, one creatues poision is anothers essential. Most species
>that existed where extinct before mankind even evolved.
>Of course the Garou are in danger of dying, but Gaia looks just fine to
>me.
Which begs the question, what does a planet get out of hosting
intelligent life? If the answer is "nothing" and life is just a minor
irritation like skin mites why doesn't she spew some toxic gasses and
wipe it out? It would be difficult to get all the bactieria and "small
life" but it would certainly be possible to rid herself of all the pesky
mammals.
The thing about planets, and possibly their spirits too, is that they
are slow. Not necessarily stupid, but really, *really* slow. These
guys are running on geologic time scales. Now life on Earth is made
almost entirely out of the Earth (although energy from the sun helps
quite a bit). In effect, the life on a planet is a part of that planet.
So it's possible that hosting life (especially intelligent life) makes
the host planet/spirit smarter, or at least a faster thinker. So
intelligent life is something a planet wants to have once she's tasted
it, maybe it's an effect like cocaine or speed.
The trouble is that it takes a long time to develop a good coating of
intelligent life, and that once you do it may not behave the way you
would like. Maybe, like mites, life (especially wyrm corrupted life)
makes her skin (crust) itch. All that mining, damming, burning, and
general independent chemical interaction is an irritation. If it gets
bad enough she puts a stop to it (bye bye dinosaur kings) but she'd
rather not because when she does she gets slow again. Her current
solution, one shes been trying out for the last 100000 years or so, is
to try to control life via a few selected agents: the shifters.
Gaia is in no real danger at all, but if the shifters fail she may have
to wipe the slate clean again. The shifters think they are trying to
"save" Gaia but, ironically, they are really fighting to save *us*.
Angela Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~aca(at)telus.net~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't need a compass to tell me which way the sun shines."
Mr Anax
Samiel Spiral skrev i meddelandet
<20000503190701...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>>> One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
>
>>
>>contradict any of their deaths *yet*.
>
>likely, but Lasombra is still very questionable, ain't that right Bruce?
By definition all vampires are dead ;-). Seriously though, aren't you
forgetting Cappadocius? I know he spent some time in the Shadowlands after
the accident with the soapslipping, "whoops, I'm sorry I rammed my teath in
your neck and drained all your blood plus your soul" italian chap but havn't
it been implied in some fairly recent book that Cappadocius finally has been
swallowed by Oblivion?
Mr Anax
Robin Lim
Perhaps Gaia is cognate with the Gnostic conception of Sophia, of the
feminine principle of wisdom which created the material world. Sopha
essentially messed up and spawned Bad Things like Ialdaboth, who in, the
Gnostics claim is the God of the Jews. Iaddy is pretty much cognate with
aspects of all of the members of the Triat, being the visible God. The
other possibility, should one be inclined, is that Gaia is cognate with
Barbello, the feminine reflection of the Hidden God, and Sophia is Lilith.
Which suggests that the Triat itself is descended from Lilith. Cool in a
different sort of way :)
This is of course, not even canon in my campaign. It's simply the sort of
things Malkavians rant about.
--
It's a duck. It floats.
Wood floats. All ducks are made from wood.
I stake him with the duck.
Ethan Skemp
In article <39111b77...@news.telus.net>, aca.Rem...@telus.net
(Angela Christine) wrote:
> The trouble is that it takes a long time to develop a good coating of
> intelligent life, and that once you do it may not behave the way you
> would like. Maybe, like mites, life (especially wyrm corrupted life)
> makes her skin (crust) itch. All that mining, damming, burning, and
> general independent chemical interaction is an irritation. If it gets
> bad enough she puts a stop to it (bye bye dinosaur kings) but she'd
> rather not because when she does she gets slow again. Her current
> solution, one shes been trying out for the last 100000 years or so, is
> to try to control life via a few selected agents: the shifters.
>
> Gaia is in no real danger at all, but if the shifters fail she may have
> to wipe the slate clean again. The shifters think they are trying to
> "save" Gaia but, ironically, they are really fighting to save *us*.
Heh. I really like this interpretation. Certainly adds something to the Red
Talons.
--
Ethan Skemp
WWGS
Alexander Bateman
Mant <man...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:8erdfv$af0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <20000503134705...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> > >> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until after
> > >Caine cursed
> > >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
> > >last to
> > >> master life and death.
> > >
> > >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> >
>
>
> And you forgot Cappadocius.
But to "Disprove the Master of Life and Death Thing" You have to Prove the
Accounts of the Death's are true first.
You Should Apply
> No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
and
> But all we have ... are Vampre, Mage etc myths. I see no
> reason why in the WoD they should be anymore relaible than human ones.
to all your argument.
Alex.
cthulhuslushee
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
>>and what exactly makes saulot's training superior to Lilith's?
>>Saulot learned from the KoE. Lilith learned at least in part
>>from God.
>
>Nothing says she learned from God, as per WW. In fact she was
cast out and took
>what she had attained, so it would be self-taught over what
Saulot had.
>
Which was instruction by a being that came considerably after
Lilith. Still fail to see the point here.
>>One could wonder how much relative difference there is in power
>>when you get that high. Seems if either Lilith or Caine were
>>that absurdly more powerful than the other, given their
possible
>>antagonism, one would have dealt with the other by now...
>
>That's the point that I make about Caine.
>
>>>Gods are not infinite - we are not talking about Monotheism
>>here.
>>>
>
>Yes we are, we are talking about the world created by God (note
the capital
>"G") and his power as an all-knowing and all-powerful being.
>
Ummm...okay. Even assuming you want to take *only* vampire and
apply it (throwing the other genres into the mix puts a real
dent into the absolute god), there's still the matter of the
KoE, and the fact that most of the canon info on "God" in WW
isn't strictly derived from the bible. The only cases we get of
canon inscription of God AFAIK come from the BoN and RotDM,
which as you say is IC description. I don't seem to recall any
case being made in WW canon that god was all-knowing, all
powerful, or even the sole divinity of the universe.
>>Even in monotheism, there can be
>>fallibility on the part of god. Even if theologians argue that
>>the judaic god must be infallible, one could argue that certain
>>passages in the bible seem to indicate otherwise.
>
>No, it's not an arguement if God is a fuck up, cause that's for
damn sure, God
>made mistakes all over the place.
>
>
Which by definition makes him fallible. If god was all-knowing
and all-powerful, it would be impossible for mistakes to occur.
>
>>>According to the mythology YHWH was "first among equals" [the
>>ELOHIM]
>>>not the "supreme being" that his cult has made him out to be
>>millenia
>>>after the fact.
>
>>er...possibly. In WoD canon that seems likely. In RL, its
>>pretty heavily debateable.
>
>I think it's actually the other way. Canon never cites
the "possibility" of
>these others,
ummm...there's a lot of "possibility" of others. Mage is chock
full of lore on gods. Hell, one interpetation of ascension
could easily be that in ascending one becomes a god, or simply
God. Even excluding this, you have the Pure ones (note the
plural) who ostensibly created the world. Outside of these two
genres, you have Gaia, which pretty much ignores the whole
christian universe and places earth itself as essentially the
penultimate, though AFAIK she's never referred to as god, per
se.
rather relys on the Christain built world by God... now what we
>know to be true, i.e. the debates going on about historical
beliefs and the
>like is what is still the question. Of course it's open to each
persons
>chronicle, but as for canon that's the way the wind blows.
>
>But still Satan is not a god, but a helper of God, it's just
that well one
>can't expect great translations after so long, besides makes
for a much more
>interesting story, or at worst it proves that god's can't
destroy each other or
>God would have rid us of Satan long ago.
>
Or if god were infallible it never would have happened....as for
god's being unable to destroy one another, check out non-judeo
christian myths. There's lots of stories of gods offing one
another.
>As for on-topic... no Lilith isn't Gaia, Caine isn't the Wyrm,
they are both
>most certainly lesser beings.
>
true. But there are a number of interesting parallels that
could make for a neat story, should someone want to do it.
Samiel Spiral
>> Yes we are, we are talking about the world created by God (note the
>capital
>> "G") and his power as an all-knowing and all-powerful being.
>No, we were talking about powerful beings. You claimed that battles
>between two very powerful beings were likely to be inconclusive. I said
>no, and cited Gods (not God) as an example. Mythology is full of very
>powerful beings soundly losing to others.
Right, but I don't think that example is very good, because we aren't talking
about Mythology in the WoD exclusively. The test would be this: Picture
Gehenna, Caine Lilith everyone shows up, would any beat the other? No not
really, perhaps in someone's specific chronicle, but as it was pointed out, if
either could take the other they more likely would have by now, or at least
Caine is still more powerful then Lilith, I think at this point Caine doesn't
give a damn about her anymore, or much of anything except having to prune his
dark tree.
~Janus
SASA
Samiel Spiral
>cast out and took
>>what she had attained,
>Which was instruction by a being that came considerably after
>Lilith. Still fail to see the point here.
>
Just that she didn't learn by some divine right, therefor making her equal to
God, that's all.
>I don't seem to recall any
>case being made in WW canon that god was all-knowing, all
>powerful, or even the sole divinity of the universe.
Nor arguement against it, in Vampire anyway, lack of something doesn't equate
to proof. After all I could argue the same about God's power as it's not
mentioned.
>>>Even in monotheism, there can be
>>>fallibility on the part of god
>>No, it's not an arguement if God is a fuck up, cause that's for
>damn sure, God
>>made mistakes all over the place.
>Which by definition makes him fallible. If god was all-knowing
>and all-powerful, it would be impossible for mistakes to occur.
Well sure he could. It's an age old question among philosophers, if God makes
something, and God is perfect does that make the object perfect simply because
he created it, or did he actually have to make it perfect (as in could he make
something imperfect or impure) God might believe that everything that was done
was perfect and not wrong and it's just our vision that's skewed.
~Janus
SASA
Samiel Spiral
>> >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be the
>> >last to
>> >> master life and death.
>> >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
>>
>> One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
>And you forgot Cappadocius.
Who wanted it... just like Saulot.
>> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
>
>No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
Well if that's the road you take then no need to debate this thread. I mean
your arguement is just short of invoking the golden rule with "nothing is
certain" makes just about any debate not related to mechanics of their game
garbage.
>> >> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique,
>> >therefore
>> >> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
>> >Unqiue != god-like.
>>
>> Not no but hell no.
>Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
Because it means there is potential for Saulot to overtake him.
>> Certainly not a lover to God as in judeo-christian world, maybe
>the "devil" who
>> is only really the angel of temptation anyway, all that fallen angle
>stuff is
>> just crap.
>No, it just came about later.
Right by people that didn't even recieve "devine visions." Normal men, trying
to control the masses.
>The devil was a combination of the angle
>of temptation and ideas and figures from other religions like Ahriman.
More like gross translations, of what really happened in the bible.
>That doesn't make it "crap", just something that came along later,
Ok it makes it a lie, that better?
>Concepts of the nature of God have
>changed to, but that doesn't make them "crap".
Makes them lies rather then the what the origional writers put down on
parchment. Fish story, just keeps getting bigger and added on to... make the
story crap, just like the bible is now, contradictions all over because of
these nice little "added" stories. But whatever, don't want to be pulled
further into this one...
~Janus
SASA
Kaiden Fox
>apply it (throwing the other genres into the mix puts a real
>dent into the absolute god), there's still the matter of the
>KoE, and the fact that most of the canon info on "God" in WW
>isn't strictly derived from the bible. The only cases we get of
>canon inscription of God AFAIK come from the BoN and RotDM,
>case being made in WW canon that god was all-knowing, all
>powerful, or even the sole divinity of the universe.
In my opinion, the best thing to do, if you really want the Mysteries of
Religion to take a front seat in your chronicle, is to choose some obscure
non-European pantheon and make them the One True Religion. (No, Cthulhu
doesn't count, nor should you consider using the Egyptian). My first
choice would be Aztech for Vampire. The book "Canabals and Kings" doesn't
go into a who's who, but it does show the relationship between diet,
dietary laws, and religion. The reason the Aztech gods were what they
were, according to this book, is because the Aztech people were canabals.
The Canabalism aspect of Vampire cannot be overplayed! The main reason I
like that as it's far too easy to make Vampires the Aztech gods. I prefer
to have it the other way around.
--
Tego Arcania Dei
Alessandro Sidoti
Gaia is a Celestine, Cosmical Greater Being without shape or form...its a
reality force. And by the way Gaia operated through Love, Compassion.
Lilith is a part Demon, part Vampire, part Mother of Beasts and Beast
herself, part Witch...and operates through EACH KIND of way..even EVIL..and
DESTRICTION...
The difference is CLEAR =)
Gaia is a greater Life Cosmic Force.
Lilith is a demoness who achieved the Demon Goddess status.
oh sorry this IMHO.
Alessandro Sidoti
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- High Incarna of Gaia and Grand Master of Entropy SAKHAN of the Mighty
SNOW RAVEN Clan Alessandro Sidoti AKA DragonHammer E-mail :
alx...@savonaonline.it
Nash <nashb...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
8egt47$rui$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Folks,
>
> A really weird idea occured to me.
> Lilith is referred to as the mother of beasts. She's a creature of
> unquantifiable and amazing power. Unlike dynamic magic, which invokes
> paradox, the Disciplines Caine created under her guidance are
> relatively stable (aside from Temporis, but the way the ST Guide reads,
> that wasn't one of his). Not only that, Lilith hasn't been heard from
> in a very long time.
> Gaia is considered to be the mother of all the changing breeds.
> She's powerful beyond any stats. The Gifts the Garou use are all tied
> to her or other spirits, making them relatively stable. And Gaia's
> been asleep a very long time.
> Is it at all possible, strange as it may be, that Gaia and Lilith
> are one in the same?
>
> --
> Nash
> Cam Member #9604-220
cthulhuslushee
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
>>> >Caine cursed
>>> >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said
to be the
>>> >last to
>>> >> master life and death.
>
>>> >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
>>>
>>> One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
>
>>And you forgot Cappadocius.
>
>Who wanted it... just like Saulot.
>
>>> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
>>
>>No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
>
>Well if that's the road you take then no need to debate this
thread. I mean
>your arguement is just short of invoking the golden rule with
"nothing is
>certain" makes just about any debate not related to mechanics of
their game
>garbage.
>
not true. For instance, I could argue that Sascha Vykos could
probably take Caine in a one on one bout. In all liklihood I'd
be wrong. There's a difference between published characters and
myths about god like beings. The former can be compared, the
later is at best speculation.
>>> >> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't
unique,
>>> >therefore
>>> >> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
>
>>> >Unqiue != god-like.
>>>
>>> Not no but hell no.
>
>>Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
>
>Because it means there is potential for Saulot to overtake him.
>
So? If ya want Saulot to be able to throw down against Caine,
have him do so in your chronicle. But arguing that because you
want Saulot to be able to overtake Caine, ergo he *must* be as
powerful in canon, doesn't make any sense.
>>> Certainly not a lover to God as in judeo-christian world,
maybe
>>the "devil" who
>>> is only really the angel of temptation anyway, all that
fallen angle
>>stuff is
>>> just crap.
>
>>No, it just came about later.
>
>Right by people that didn't even recieve "devine visions."
Normal men, trying
>to control the masses.
>
A lot of the imagery of hell and the devil came from the apostle
Paul. While not exactly a prophet in the tradition of Moses or
Ezekiel, if one accepts the christian faith, he was speaking with
the word of God. That's why in RL, the catholic church makes
distinctions between canonical texts (ie the writings of the
apostles) vs. theological interpretations. Of course, the
average practioner doesn't see the difference much, and in a lot
of protestant faiths, canonical texts and theological
interpretations get blended together into "the truth".
>>The devil was a combination of the angle
>>of temptation and ideas and figures from other religions like
Ahriman.
>
>More like gross translations, of what really happened in the
bible.
>
are you speaking about WoD stuff here, or RL. In RL he's
essentially correct. In the WoD, one could go either way
plausibly, depending on how much dry scholarly work you want to
inflict on your players...
>>That doesn't make it "crap", just something that came along
later,
>
>Ok it makes it a lie, that better?
>
no, it makes it something that comes along later. see above.
>>Concepts of the nature of God have
>>changed to, but that doesn't make them "crap".
>
>Makes them lies rather then the what the origional writers put
down on
>parchment. Fish story, just keeps getting bigger and added on
to... make the
>story crap, just like the bible is now, contradictions all over
because of
>these nice little "added" stories. But whatever, don't want to
be pulled
>further into this one...
>
The imagery of god changes as cultures change. That's simply a
fact. Your average Jew in the time of christ had a considerably
different perception of life, and a different social situation,
than your american jew 2000 years later. As for contradictions,
that's what happens when you take an essentially oral tradition
and translate it into a codified canonical text. As for "added
stories" what are you referring to here? How do you choose what
is "added" vs. what is the word of God? This is why biblical
scholarship is such a headache...
Randall Crabtree
"Kaiden Fox" <kai...@earth.execpc.com> wrote in message
news:390ca6b3$0$19...@news.execpc.com...
>
> Not to be too obtuse, but Lilith isn't human. That is, she is imune to
"the human condition." Because she
> is not a Son of Adam or a Daughter of Eve, she has never partaken of the
Tree of Knowledge. She does not suffer
> the Curse of Man and, therefore, is "created in god's image."
Not only that, she is immortal (the curse of man being death) and absolutly
despises the children of Adam as an out growth of her hate for him.
It would make an interesting twist.
Another point in favor of the posiblity is that Vampires and changlings are
both preditors of man. Lilith's prime motive for creating eather group would
be as a torment for the sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve.
Elf-Kin
Randall Crabtree
"Fyszt" <spamfree...@er.uqam.ca> wrote in message
news:390E03FC...@er.uqam.ca...
>
> Webwalker wrote:
>
> > Did you order the pizza, Samiel?
> > >>
> > >>equal to
> > >>> God and The One (cosmologically speaking). Under that, there is
> > >>Satan (and his
> > >>> equivalent)
> >
> > >>True, but then there's Revelations of the Dark Mother
> >
> > > Oh please RotDM is nothing more then propaganda just like the Book of
Nod is
> > > for Caine. Of course those that hold the view of Lilith being Gaia say
that
> > > makes Caine the Wyrm. Of course that's all rather bogus considering
Lilith is
> > > mother of demons, that certainly doesn't jive with the idea of Gaia.
> >
> > Didn't Gaia create the Triat? If so, than Gaia created the Wyrm, the
> > greatest "Demon" of them all.
The wyrm (cosmoligicly speackin dragon) Was created as the elimant of
balance. To mediate between caios (wyld) the raw energy of creation and
Entrupy (weaver) the power of stagnation and stability. Acording to the
books The weaver is mad, the wyrm is entangled in the weavers web and long
sence insain and the wyld is dying.
>
> Er, no! Gaia is under the triat.
>
> See, you've got the Wyld, then the Wyld makes a copy of something, then
you get
> the Weaver, then something is destroyed, then you Get the Wyrm.
So the wyld creats with out form, the weaver puts creation to form the wyrm
makes certain that the cycle remains in balance, destroying here and there
to insure the continuation of the cycle. If things were functioning as they
should.
That was how things were set up.
>
> Gaia integrates all 3 principle, she creates, reproduces and destroys, all
in one
> glorious and sacred cycle.
>
> And Gaia was there before Lilith, Gaia is the earth.
>
Randall Crabtree
"James Kiley" <ten...@eris.io.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8gtqgh...@eris.io.com...
> Ethan Skemp <alpha...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >it's possible that the Triat is nearly Tellurian-sized, and that the
> >familiar incarnations of mad Weaver, corrupted Wyrm and red-headed
stepchild
> >Wyld are how the three manifest in Gaia's realm. Or not.
>
> This is pretty much my preferred cosmology for Werewolf; the Weaver,
> Wyld, and Wyrm seem too much like universal forces and Gaia seems
> too much like a single realm for me to think of it otherwise.
>
> Which means, of course, that I ought to ponder more closely that
> alternate possibility; if the Triat is less than Gaia, then how is
> it that 2/3 (at least) of the Triat is slowly murdering her? What
> do they have that she can't defend against? Hmm.
>
> jk
The idea of the child(ren) killing the parent is not a new one....
The Titans killed their father and were inture ousted by their children....
Webwalker
>>cast out and took
>>>what she had attained,
>>Which was instruction by a being that came considerably after
>>Lilith. Still fail to see the point here.
>>
> Just that she didn't learn by some divine right, therefor making her equal to
> God, that's all.
In RotDM, it seems that Lillith and God learn quite a bit exactly the same
way; by eating the fruits from the two trees. I know it's IC, but it's
the only reference in Vampire to how either of them learned anything.
>>I don't seem to recall any
>>case being made in WW canon that god was all-knowing, all
>>powerful, or even the sole divinity of the universe.
> Nor arguement against it, in Vampire anyway, lack of something doesn't equate
> to proof. After all I could argue the same about God's power as it's not
> mentioned.
But there isn't a "lack" of it in Vampire; there is True Faith. It
doesn't prove the judeo-christian God, but it does show that there is some
other, higher being(s) out there.
>>>>Even in monotheism, there can be
>>>>fallibility on the part of god
>>>No, it's not an arguement if God is a fuck up, cause that's for
>>damn sure, God
>>>made mistakes all over the place.
>>Which by definition makes him fallible. If god was all-knowing
>>and all-powerful, it would be impossible for mistakes to occur.
> Well sure he could. It's an age old question among philosophers, if God makes
> something, and God is perfect does that make the object perfect simply because
> he created it, or did he actually have to make it perfect (as in could he make
> something imperfect or impure) God might believe that everything that was done
> was perfect and not wrong and it's just our vision that's skewed.
Who are we to call something that God does "perfect" or "flawed"? Do we
know enough about Gods motivations and abilities, and are we wise enough
to be able to make that distinction? When we can't even decide about
things *we* do - is the Venus de Milo one of the greatest sculptures ever
created or is it just a sculpture of a woman without arms? - how are we
able to decide that God screwed up?
--
"Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something."
-- Thomas A. Edison
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smiall
Samiel Spiral
>>>
>>>No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
>>Well if that's the road you take then no need to debate this
>thread. I mean
>>your arguement is just short of invoking the golden rule with
>"nothing is
>>certain" makes just about any debate not related to mechanics of
>their game
>>garbage.
>not true.
Yes very true it's a big bad cop-out. If you don't want to actually talk about
the ideas of the thread then don't post. I'm not trying to be rude but that's
all your arguement boils down to is that this debate is pointless, that no news
group needs, if you don't have anything constructive to say, then zip it.
>>>Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
>>
>>Because it means there is potential for Saulot to overtake him.
>So? If ya want Saulot to be able to throw down against Caine,
>have him do so in your chronicle. But arguing that because you
>want Saulot to be able to overtake Caine, ergo he *must* be as
>powerful in canon, doesn't make any sense.
Honestly be constructive, I was talking in this thread about a passage from the
BoN and if the father of darkness could be someone that's not Caine, I never
said "this is canon">>>The devil was a combination of the angle
>>>of temptation and ideas and figures from other religions like
>Ahriman.
>>
>>More like gross translations, of what really happened in the
>bible.
>are you speaking about WoD stuff here, or RL.
Talking about RL and what's actually in the bible and how it's wrong, though it
doesn't have any real bearing, just was pointing out that the devil is not, a
god.
~Janus
SASA
Samiel Spiral
>>>I don't seem to recall any
>>>case being made in WW canon that god was all-knowing, all
>>>powerful, or even the sole divinity of the universe.
>> Nor arguement against it, in Vampire anyway, lack of something doesn't
>equate
>> to proof. After all I could argue the same about God's power as it's not
>> mentioned.
>
>But there isn't a "lack" of it in Vampire; there is True Faith. It
>doesn't prove the judeo-christian God, but it does show that there is some
>other, higher being(s) out there.
I don't think True Faith is a good example. True Faith doesn't even prove
existance of any being, as TF is actually a power from the invidual, even if
the person's beliefs are right or wrong.
~Janus
SASA
Kish
Webwalker wrote in message <8esqmp$b46$1...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>...
>> Just that she didn't learn by some divine right, therefor making her equal to
>> God, that's all.
>
>In RotDM, it seems that Lillith and God learn quite a bit exactly the same
>way; by eating the fruits from the two trees. I know it's IC, but it's
>the only reference in Vampire to how either of them learned anything.
Of course, there's the statement that she's at least equal to God in the GttS.
>But there isn't a "lack" of it in Vampire; there is True Faith. It
>doesn't prove the judeo-christian God, but it does show that there is some
>other, higher being(s) out there.
Not that either. It proves that people with devout Faith can occasionally do
flashy things--no proof of what the source of this power is, or (more
importantly) whether the power comes from the being or from the belief itself.
--
Kish
ICQ#: 28085879
AIM: Kish K M
Kis...@mindspring.replacewithcom
AJSolis
Old Captain Docius is hanging around the city of gehenna according to time
of thin blood. :)
Mant
>
> >Nothing. How do you kill a planet? Other planetary Celtestine like
Luna
> >and Helios manage just fine without life.
>
> Bah, we can't be sure of that. We certainly couldn't live unaided on
> the moon or in the sun, but that doesn't mean that no form of life
> could. Since the environment of each planet is radically different,
> presumably the life on each world would also be different. We might
not
> recognise lunar life forms if one jumped up and bit us (which it
> wouldn't, 'cause we'd be undigestible).
True, but we have pretty good evidence of a lack of life on the moon
and sun give how extensivley the two have been studied.
> >Not that life is in any
> >danger of being wiped out, the impact mankind has had on the earth is
> >nothing compared to environmental changes and calameties the planet
has
> >been though, one creatues poision is anothers essential. Most species
> >that existed where extinct before mankind even evolved.
> >Of course the Garou are in danger of dying, but Gaia looks just fine
to
> >me.
>
> Which begs the question, what does a planet get out of hosting
> intelligent life? If the answer is "nothing" and life is just a minor
> irritation like skin mites why doesn't she spew some toxic gasses and
> wipe it out? It would be difficult to get all the bactieria
and "small
> life" but it would certainly be possible to rid herself of all the
pesky
> mammals.
Maybe she/it doesn't care either way? To a Celestine intellignece on
the human scale might well be irrelevent. We think the difference in
intellignece between a human and say a dog is really massive, but see
from her/its point of view it might not be.
> The thing about planets, and possibly their spirits too, is that they
> are slow. Not necessarily stupid, but really, *really* slow. These
> guys are running on geologic time scales. Now life on Earth is made
> almost entirely out of the Earth (although energy from the sun helps
> quite a bit). In effect, the life on a planet is a part of that
planet.
> So it's possible that hosting life (especially intelligent life) makes
> the host planet/spirit smarter, or at least a faster thinker. So
> intelligent life is something a planet wants to have once she's tasted
> it, maybe it's an effect like cocaine or speed.
Hmm, thats and interesting idea.
> The trouble is that it takes a long time to develop a good coating of
> intelligent life, and that once you do it may not behave the way you
> would like. Maybe, like mites, life (especially wyrm corrupted life)
> makes her skin (crust) itch. All that mining, damming, burning, and
> general independent chemical interaction is an irritation. If it gets
> bad enough she puts a stop to it (bye bye dinosaur kings) but she'd
> rather not because when she does she gets slow again. Her current
> solution, one shes been trying out for the last 100000 years or so, is
> to try to control life via a few selected agents: the shifters.
Certainly the shifter are a very late addition to Gaia, even the mokole
and rokea come from creature appearing very late in her overall history.
> Gaia is in no real danger at all, but if the shifters fail she may
have
> to wipe the slate clean again. The shifters think they are trying to
> "save" Gaia but, ironically, they are really fighting to save *us*.
I think the Garou are really fighting to save themselves, they are the
endangered species they care most about (how many /really/ give a toss
that plant species X has been wiped out in the Amazon?). Of course they
are need humans and wolves around to survive.
If Gaia wants to keep mankind for some reason then making all shifers
part human, and needing humans to contiue makes a lot of sense, so does
the whole metis thing. The metis stuff seems bizzare from the
whole "making babies to save Gaia" point of view, but from a "getting
shifters to save humans" point of view its just perfect.
You know, thats some really good ideas you have there.
Mant
--
Mant's Lair
Resources for the World of Darkness games
http://www.mants-lair.org.uk
Mant
"Alexander Bateman" <alexande...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Mant <man...@geocities.com> wrote in message
> news:8erdfv$af0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> > > >> Not really, as any degeneration in power didn't occur until
after
> > > >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be
the
> > > >last to
> > > >> master life and death.
> > > >
> > > >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> > >
> > > One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
> >
> >
> > And you forgot Cappadocius.
>
> But to "Disprove the Master of Life and Death Thing" You have to
Prove the
> Accounts of the Death's are true first.
>
> You Should Apply
> > But all we have ... are Vampre, Mage etc myths. I see no
> > reason why in the WoD they should be anymore relaible than human
ones.
> to all your argument.
The death of Ravnos is clearly not a myth, its as conclusive as
anything in vamipre canon is ever going to be.
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >> >Caine cursed
> >> >> his grandchilder, supposedly, which is why they are said to be
the
> >> >last to
> >> >> master life and death.
>
> >> >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> >>
> >> One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
>
>
> Who wanted it... just like Saulot.
Well he wanted to be diableised, I'm pretty sure he didn't want what
evetually happened though.
> >> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
> >
> >No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
>
> Well if that's the road you take then no need to debate this thread.
I mean
> your arguement is just short of invoking the golden rule
with "nothing is
> certain" makes just about any debate not related to mechanics of
their game
> garbage.
Harldy. The only basis for Caine is more powerful than Lilith is the
BoN. In canon the BoN is some stuff written by some vampire and thats
all. Its contents, in the world of vampire, are suspect. There is
plenty of interest to debate, but claiming sutff already presented
as /not/ being facts, justs myths, as necesssrily true is a pretty bad
basis for basing your point of view on unless its a "what if" debate.
> >> >> and Saulot's trip to the East shows that Caine wasn't unique,
> >> >therefore
> >> >> isn't as god-like as portrayed.
>
> >> >Unqiue != god-like.
> >>
> >> Not no but hell no.
>
> >Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
>
> Because it means there is potential for Saulot to overtake him.
No, it means that a Cathayan, who can gain power from enlightenment,
was possibly of equal power. Salouts Kindred though, and though don't
get power from enlightenment but a divine curse. Thats not to say its
not possible for him to figure out some way of getting the power, but
its not really and inhernet potential of his condition.
> >> Certainly not a lover to God as in judeo-christian world, maybe
> >the "devil" who
> >> is only really the angel of temptation anyway, all that fallen
angle
> >stuff is
> >> just crap.
>
> >No, it just came about later.
>
> Right by people that didn't even recieve "devine visions." Normal
men, trying
> to control the masses.
Are you saying it was a deliberate ploy to manipulate people? My
understanding (coming mostly from the excellent TV series "history of
the devil") was that it was mostly through evoloution of the religion
and influence from other dualistic religions.
And how about Revelations? Supposedly a divine revaltion. Its not quite
the classic Satan people think of but a lot
> >The devil was a combination of the angle
> >of temptation and ideas and figures from other religions like
Ahriman.
>
> More like gross translations, of what really happened in the bible.
Now there is a loaded phrase indeed, "what really happened in the
bible". What for a start do you take as the bible? How can you talk
about "what really happened" on alegorical stories?
> >That doesn't make it "crap", just something that came along later,
>
> Ok it makes it a lie, that better?
No, in fact pretty insulting to people who follow modern christianity.
> >Concepts of the nature of God have
> >changed to, but that doesn't make them "crap".
>
> Makes them lies rather then the what the origional writers put down on
> parchment.
Since we have no real idea what the orginal writers put down, or in
most cases who they were I find this a bizare statement. In most cases
the Old Testment (an associated stories not actually in it like Lilith)
are the collect mythology of the Jewish people (being a living beleif
we tend to use "religion" rather than "mythology" but its not really
different. So how can one version be "lies" and one "true"?
> Fish story, just keeps getting bigger and added on to... make the
> story crap,
*Shrug* when the Bible talks about feed five thousand people, 40 days a
nights or something really big it almost certainly does not mean
litereally. Numbers and times are almost never to be taken litereally,
they usually mean "a lot" or "a long time". Partly this is a
translation problem.
> just like the bible is now, contradictions all over because of
> these nice little "added" stories.
I think what got left out is more interesting personally, but
contradictions are there from the earliest versions we have access to.
> But whatever, don't want to be pulled
> further into this one...
Personally I think its more interesting than the original topic ;)
Mant
samiel...@aol.com (Samiel Spiral) wrote:
> >>>> And Caine was more powerful then Lilith..
> >>>
> >>>No. We have no prove, just a bunch of Vampire myths.
>
> >>Well if that's the road you take then no need to debate this
> >thread. I mean
> >>your arguement is just short of invoking the golden rule with
> >"nothing is
> >>certain" makes just about any debate not related to mechanics of
> >their game
> >>garbage.
>
>
> Yes very true it's a big bad cop-out. If you don't want to actually
talk about
> the ideas of the thread then don't post. I'm not trying to be rude
but that's
> all your arguement boils down to is that this debate is pointless,
that no news
> group needs, if you don't have anything constructive to say, then zip
it.
Not at all. You can say "I think Caine is more powerful than Lilith
becuase of XYZ". No body is really likely to change their minds but
hopefully some interesting stuff (like the nature of Gaia and humanity
elsewhere in the thread) will come out of it.
OTOH saying "Caine is more powerful than Lilith" is a pointless
statement. In the "official canon" of Vampire their very existence and
certainly relative power is undefined.
> >>>Than why claim that no being unique makes him not god-like?
> >>
> >>Because it means there is potential for Saulot to overtake him.
>
> >So? If ya want Saulot to be able to throw down against Caine,
> >have him do so in your chronicle. But arguing that because you
> >want Saulot to be able to overtake Caine, ergo he *must* be as
> >powerful in canon, doesn't make any sense.
>
> Honestly be constructive, I was talking in this thread about a
passage from the
> BoN and if the father of darkness could be someone that's not Caine,
Which is a completely valid point. I personally don't see Salout
fitting the "Father" part, unless you count making the Baali.
Discussing who it could be any why is certainly interesting (to me
anyway).
Its just that however cool the ideas you nobody can claim to be right
beyond their own game in matters like this.
Samiel Spiral
>Not at all. You can say "I think Caine is more powerful than Lilith
>becuase of XYZ". No body is really likely to change their minds but
>hopefully some interesting stuff (like the nature of Gaia and humanity
>elsewhere in the thread) will come out of it.
I never ment it as that, but that to what there is, it points to Caine gaining
more power, not to mention my own personal extrapilation that Caine being
different from Lilith, ie origional sin, the curses from the angles and the
mark of God go a long way to make him different and would make him more
powerful.
>OTOH saying "Caine is more powerful than Lilith" is a pointless
>statement. In the "official canon" of Vampire their very existence and
>certainly relative power is undefined.
Right i was pointing out what there was, both from the BoN and RotDM even
though they were both flawed (which i also pointed out) but gave my personal
analysis as to why one would be more so then the other because we can all agree
on a couple things assuming they both exsist, 1) Lilith was cast out of the
garden 2) Caine was cursed by God. 3) At some point the two meet.
>hread about a
>passage from the
>> BoN and if the father of darkness could be someone that's not Caine,
>
>Which is a completely valid point. I personally don't see Salout
>fitting the "Father" part, unless you count making the Baali.
And the Salubri healers and the warriors, and the Tremere, and his little group
in the East. Beats out everyone else, heck even Caine only had a couple kids,
which by effects spawns all of them... yes granted.
~Janus
SASA
Randall Crabtree
"Billy Yeager" <yeag...@denison.edu> wrote in message
news:8elpt3$fcq$1...@tribune.oar.net...
> Actually it has been stated before that The One Creator, a god, the God,
> whatever was the creator of the planet, in some way or another, and that
he
> raised Lilith to his level as his lover, and that she had already become
far
> more than human, raising herself almost to his level with her eating the
> fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
>
Actualt it was (atlest in RL mythos) the tree of life, which made her
immortal.
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and were punished for it. (BTW,
it was knowledge of good and evil that the tree imparts. They dont know the
difrince prior to that.)
Because Lilith ate from the tree of life (as in eturnal) and not the tree of
knowledge she is immortal and doesnt bare the curse of man.
> I have to grant that the Chritian God is really the equivalent of a
> Celestine in Werewolf, he was obviously far more than that in the
mythology
> of Vampire, specifically in RotDM. Therefore it is certainly possible for
> Lilith and Gaia to be the same entity; it is also entirely possible that
> they are both merely representations of a greater being, like two
different
> faces of a god or goddess in human mythology. It is even plausible... it
> makes a great deal of sense to create two different avatars to satisfy the
> demands of two different supernatural species.
>
> Besides if you wanted to get really technical, although Gaia created each
> changing breed, certain Celetines, or Incarna influenced the development
of
> specific changing breeds to suit the needs both of Gaia, and themselves.
> Therefore, in addition to any duties, and emotions directed towards Gaia,
> certain breeds should also have an almost greater affection for their
> Celestine.
>
>
> "Kish" <Kis...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:8el9dd$kno$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
> >
> > Billy Yeager wrote in message <8el1hn$6bp$1...@tribune.oar.net>...
> > >Sorry that was a little off topic. I think that there is quite a bit of
> > >evidence to Lilith = Gaia. I think it was deliberately left vague so
that
> > >storytellers could choose for themselves without specifically going
> against
> > >a book which might have published something else.
> > >
> >
> >
> > "The greatest spirit is Gaia. Below her is the Triat...The Realm-system
> begins
> > with Gaia and is bounded by Gaia. All things that exist within the
> Tellurian
> > are considered to be of Gaia, though some Garou would refute the notion
> that
> > evil beings are truly a part of Gaia....Below Gaia in cosmic power are
the
> > mysterious, personified forced called the Wyld, the Weaver, and the
Wyrm."
> >
> > Page 177, Werewolf 2nd.
> >
> > That doesn't sound at all vague to me. If, for some incomprehensible
> reason,
> > you really want Gaia to be Lilith, you could argue that the main
Werewolf
> Second
> > Edition book should be discounted, or that that section should be read
as
> IC and
> > therefore no more binding than the Bastet belief that the Triat created
> Gaia.
> > However, from where I'm standing, there's no support at all for the idea
> that
> > Gaia is Lilith.
> >
> > It could be argued that there's support for the idea that Gaia /might/
be
> under
> > the Triat, but, unless you've read something I haven't (always a
> possibility),
> > there is less support for the idea that she is under the Triat than
there
> is for
> > the idea that she's more than the Triat, and there's no support at all
for
> > dogmatic claims that she is less than the Triat.
Eric Tolle
>
> "Kaiden Fox" <kai...@earth.execpc.com> wrote in message
> news:390ca6b3$0$19...@news.execpc.com...
> >
> > Not to be too obtuse, but Lilith isn't human. That is, she is imune to
> Not only that, she is immortal (the curse of man being death) and absolutly
> despises the children of Adam as an out growth of her hate for him.
Myself, I think that Lilith's bad attitude _really_ comes out of
the part of her myth that says she has very hairy legs. Millennia
of razor burn (especially before the invention of steel) would make
any immortal testy.
I'm very confident, that with the invention of "Nair", Lilith's
attitude is going to mellow out. Really.
--
Eric Tolle sch...@silcom.com
People tend to underestimate the impact of scientific progress.
Why just fifty years ago, only a few people had even heard of DNA,
and now everybody who is somebody uses it!
Eric Tolle
> > >They clearly aren't though, some are dead.
> > One, at best two, Brujah, and Ravnos.
> Its enough to disprove the "master of life and death" thing.
Bah. Every Hammer Film aficionado knows they're just going to come
back in the sequels, "Horror of Brujah", and "To the Ravnos a
Daughter".