Dual Wield vs Two-handed Weapon Attack Power
Prelgor
How does Attack Power apply to two-handed and dual wielded weapons?
I used to think that both styles were set to do 120% the DPS of a
single one-handed weapon (all of equivalent item level/quality). 2H
weapons just do more DPS. Between increased miss chance and decreased
off-hand damage, raw weapon damage works out to be the same for dual
wielding.
However, when I apply Attack Power, it seems asymmetric. Single one-
handed and two-handed weapons both gain the same amount of DPS. Dual
wielded weapons seem to gain 80% (main hand) + 40% (off hand) = 120%
as much DPS from Attack Power. For this to be fair, Attack Power
would need to give increased DPS to two-handed weapons, but I've never
heard of this being true.
Is what I wrote correct? If so, does it ever make sense for a warrior
or enhancement shaman to choose 2-H weapons over dual wielding? Even
at reasonably low levels, Attack Power represents a fairly significant
portion of total melee DPS. For simplicity, I am neglecting any
relevant talents.
Baffled,
- Prelgor
p.s. Yes, I neglected to consider melee hunters. :-)
Apoptygma
I actually built a spreadsheet to work out if my warrior should up 1
or two weapons while leveling and i got to the same point where you
are now. I decided that one 2-hander is better at the start where your
gear gives less as and hit rating. Once you reach the point where you
have around 1000 as and 10% hit chance there is no turning back and
the only use i can see for one big weapon is for burst damage in pvp
Shammy
Black temple level of gear. Brfore that you have better dps with a 2h if you
are good ofc. Our top dps in guild is a MS warrior, when he is in raid he
does at least 10-20% more dmg than anyone else. We have a fury warrior too
with same lvl of gear and he doesnt even come close. This MS warrior said
imp slam and a 2h are really good for pve dps.
Babe Bridou
> Hello all,
>
> How does Attack Power apply to two-handed and dual wielded weapons?
>
>
> p.s. Yes, I neglected to consider melee hunters. :-)
Heresy :P
The thing with AP is that it scales in several different ways
depending on how the attacks translates weapon damage into skill
damage. See: http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalize for more information.
Below is a shameless cut&paste for those who can't browse for some
reason:
As you can see, it depends on the type of weapon you're using and the
skills you use in your attack routine. A few exceptions of note are
Raptor Strike, Heroic Strike, Backstab, Ambush, Mutilate, Whirlwind
and Cleave which translate your AP into dps differently depending on
the skills you use.
For instance, Raptor Strike(Heresy! :P) isn't normalized, with talents
has a built-in 20%crit modifier AND a built-in +damage modifier and
replaces a weapon attack, which basically means that the best skill
damage depends not on how much AP you have, but rather on a compromise
between a very fast main hand (to maximize the +damage component) OR a
very slow two-hander (to maximize the +crit% component).
The same can be said with the Mutilate/Backstab comparison - All other
things being equal, depending on the weapon speed of your main hand,
you're better off using Backstab (for the talented crit% and crit bonus
%) or Mutilate (for the additional attack).
Or the whole Arms or Fury controversy, since 2.3, it's very unclear
wether your AP translates into more dps using a two hander, two fast
one-handers, two slow one-handers, and whether improved Mortal Strike
scales better than, say, Bloodthirst & improved Whirlwind, assuming a
slow two hander - or even compared to two one-handers, possibly two
swords with sword spec and endless rage.
"Normalize
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Refers to an Attack Power adjustment made to instant attacks in patch
1.8. Hunter ranged instant attacks were also normalized in patch 1.10.
Prior to patch 1.8, the weapon damage used for instant attacks was:
damage = base_weapon_damage + (weapon_speed * Attack Power / 14)
Currently, the normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)
where X is:
* 1.7 for daggers
* 2.4 for other one-handed weapons
* 3.3 for two-handed weapons
* 2.8 for ranged weapons
* weapon speed for non-normalized attacks (see below)
Certain instant attacks are affected: others are not.
Normalized instant attacks:
* Rogue
o Shiv
o Sinister Strike
o Ambush
o Backstab
* Warrior
o Overpower
o Mortal Strike
o Whirlwind
o Devastate
* Hunter
o Multi-Shot
Non-normalized instant attacks:
* Rogue
o Ghostly Strike
o Riposte
* Shaman
o Stormstrike
* Warrior
o Retaliation
* Hunter
o Wing Clip
o Mongoose Bite
o Scatter Shot
Instant attacks that aren't based on weapon damage and thus aren't
normalized:
* Rogue
o Gouge
o Kick
o finishing moves
* Warrior
o Execute
o Bloodthirst
o Revenge
o Rend
o Hamstring
o Shield Bash
o Shield Slam
o Mocking Blow
o Intercept
o Pummel
* Hunter
o Arcane Shot
o Concussive Shot
o all stings
o Counterattack
Note: Druid feral attacks were not normalized. They are unaffected by
weapon speed. Mages, warlocks, and priests have no instant melee or
ranged abilities.
Paladins recently gained Crusader Strike as an instant attack,
requiring 41 points in the Retribution talent tree. "
Urs Steiner
hmm, I thought MS was considered the PVP spec?
Also don't forget that the support a warrior gets can push his damage
tremendously (f.e. with an enh shaman in his group, he will have 10%
more AP and will have WF totem which can increase his DPS by a good
10-20%) compared to someone without real support.
Anyway, I know that for shamans it's dual wield from the get go. I.e.
when raiding in Kara as enhancement shaman, you're dual wielding.
Urs
--
Manotroth - Orc Shaman 70 - Mining & Axesmith
Blackhorns - Tauren Bear 70 - Skinning & Herbalism
Ratoma- Troll Rogue 28 - (Dis)Enchantress
Melony - Human Mage 16
and various others
Shammy
US> hmm, I thought MS was considered the PVP spec?
It is the pvp spec but also pve spec untill very high lvl of gear (BT/MH)..
At least I need to meet a fury warrior that outdps a MS warrior on kara lvl
gear.
Prelgor
> On 23 nov, 07:10, Prelgor <prel...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > How does Attack Power apply to two-handed and dual wielded weapons?
>
> <snip>
>
> > p.s. Yes, I neglected to consider melee hunters. :-)
>
> Heresy :P
>
> The thing with AP is that it scales in several different ways
> depending on how the attacks translates weapon damage into skill
> Below is a shameless cut&paste for those who can't browse for some
> reason:
>
> As you can see, it depends on the type of weapon you're using and the
> skills you use in your attack routine. A few exceptions of note are
> Raptor Strike, Heroic Strike, Backstab, Ambush, Mutilate, Whirlwind
> and Cleave which translate your AP into dps differently depending on
> the skills you use.
> Or the whole Arms or Fury controversy, since 2.3, it's very unclear
> wether your AP translates into more dps using a two hander, two fast
> one-handers, two slow one-handers, and whether improved Mortal Strike
> scales better than, say, Bloodthirst & improved Whirlwind, assuming a
> slow two hander - or even compared to two one-handers, possibly two
> swords with sword spec and endless rage.
So, basically, you're telling me that both styles are at least
competitive with each other for a warrior. Much as I hoped to
simplify the issue, you're also reminding me that white damage is
hardly the end of the story, where DPS is concerned.
For a shaman, the issue does seem simpler. Two handed weapons are
superior DPS, until you get the talents to open up Dual Wielding.
With the +hit talents right there, it is almost immediately superior.
The hard decision is not what to wield, but whether to spec
Enhancement that far. :)
At this point, I have a 31 warrior that I occasionally play for solo
PvE. I have no expectations of ever getting him into endgame gear.
Heck, I don't see Outlands in his forseeable future even. My take
home message is that speccing Arms for 2-H weapons is not clearly a
sub-optimal choice, compared to a dual wield spec. Arms with a two-
hander is not only "large burst damage" but also comparable DPS to
Fury with dual wielding.
Do I understand correctly that it is the special attacks (Mortal
Strike, etc.) that even the balance between the two styles? The one
with less white damage gets better special attacks, or something like
that?
- Prelgor