Arrogant PUG tanks.
cryptoguy
Last night the Daily Heroic was H ToC, and my ~2500gs Holy pally was
with 3 guildie DPS, all around 2000. We had to PUG a tank, and wound
up with a 2700gs Druid
He was very good at holding aggro, and we completed the run without
anyone dying. It was a very fast run.
Too fast, in fact. Once we were off the horses, the tank moved from
phase to phase without any more pause than required to loot.
Otherwise, he went straight from one to another. By the time we
cleared the second phase's adds, and got to the boss, I was at half
mana, and our mage was even lower. Normally, we'd pause at that point
to mana/bandage up, and then continue. This tank just piled into the
boss without pause. We didn't die, but I had to pop a number of
cooldowns to not go OOM, leaving me without any backup in case of
problems.
After we killed the Black Knight (the final boss), I whispered to the
tank that he should do readychecks and check mana levels before
pulling bosses.
His response was to call me a 'horrible healer' and that I needed to
manage my mana better. I pointed out that I'd been pumping out 3600
hps, no one had come close to dying, and that he needed to learn how
to play with other classes. He reiterated that I sucked, and put me on
ignore.
This was an extreme case, but I'm seeing a lot of tanks who pay no
attention to the situations of the other players. When, as a result,
they die from going out of range/out of line of sight/driving the
healer OOM, it's always the healer's fault.
Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
pt
Yeechang Lee
> He was very good at holding aggro, and we completed the run without
> anyone dying. It was a very fast run.
>
> Too fast, in fact.
[...]
In Outland, when paladin tanks were still novel and (relatively) few,
I amazed a lot of players by chain pulling heroic Shattered Halls. I
was usually careful to not pull unless the healer had sufficient mana,
though.
Now that all tank classes can AoE tank in Northrend, and crowd control
is almost never necessary, most tanks chain pull. Not all of them are
as careful as I am, though. While the druid tank you mentioned was
rude, period, most do learn (involuntarily via wipes, if nothing else)
that healers can't do much without mana.
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
Matthew
HIM. You might wipe but it teaches them a lesson. You warn them once to
stop after that if they continue to do this kick them from the group
I have a MM & survival hunter and a death knight blood hybrid & frost spec.
The other night in old kingdom. I did a pug which I really don't like to do.
Everyone that came in had 213 gear plus. I was tanking and we had a hunter
and warlock that would not listen. The hunter left his pet's growl on.
They both left their pets on aggressive. I told them to put them on
defensive. Neither Did kept pulling aggro or pets attacking other mobs
while we were dealing with what was in front of us. I warned them once no
good. I let it go till the second time and when my healer and my mage both
guildies and friends that were in the group were almost out of mana. I told
them hold up they need mana. They pulled again. I quickly told the mage
Port now. I pulled all the mobs I had the healer popped his cool downs I
popped mine to keep me up. Us three jumped and dropped them from groups to
let them be killed.
They whispers quite a few curse words. I told them go to their momma and
smack her for raising a couple idiots. Pugs do suck
"cryptoguy" <treif...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:41f03275-025a-41a3...@o31g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
cryptoguy
It isn't just a matter of mana alone. At the end of a fight, the
healer has to:
1. Top up the other players.
2. Top up his own mana pool.
3. Loot.
Once that's done, he's ready, but there are opening moves, such as
placing Beacon on the tank, for which it's really helpful to have more
notice of a pull than seeing the tank running at the boss, or (if
still looting) hearing the clash of swords. I use a couple GCDs on
these opening moves, and I'd much rather do that *before* the tank
starts taking damage.
I frequently have to leave trash unlooted because I don't have time.
In some places, such as VH, that can't be helped, but there's no
justification for that much hurry in most situations.
pt
hume.sp...@bofh.ca
> as careful as I am, though. While the druid tank you mentioned was
> rude, period, most do learn (involuntarily via wipes, if nothing else)
> that healers can't do much without mana.
I wish they'd learn. After a wipe, though, they just blame the healer.
I believe the most you can do is warn the rest of the server about these
guys.
--
Brandon Hume - hume -> BOFH.Ca, http://WWW.BOFH.Ca/
ThomasH
> After we killed the Black Knight (the final boss), I whispered to the
> tank that he should do readychecks and check mana levels before
> pulling bosses.
Well, checking mana, okay / of course, but Readychecking before every
boss in a Heroic that people are geared for is simply annoying ;-)
Most pugs I tanked, my girlfriend (sitting next to me) was healing, so
much easier. "Pull?" "Okay" vroom! :-)
--
Greets, Thomas.
Bulgaroth (Hunter), Latigo (DK), Darkhulk (Druid), and Smallwall
(Paladin) on Argent Dawn EU.
Jamie Kahn Genet
I don't tolerate that. If I need to drink - I start drinking. If I'm
still looting, I'll keep looting. If people bitch about that I point out
they should wait for everyone to be ready. If they don't say sorry about
that I leave.
That said the majority of PUGs I'm in are people who understand waiting
between pulls for everyone to be ready. But the number of bad players is
increasing all right. I blame the dumbing down of running instances. Now
any fool can do it... they do :-\
Anyway - I think it's important not to tolerate fools. They only get it
in their heads that they can go on behaving that way.
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting aka TOFU (Top-post Over, Full quote Under)
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
yojrod
This is just my point of view...
The higher end-game pve gear (I'm assuming you have a lot of this per
your gearscore) is itemized for maximizing hps (a lot of sp, haste,
crit), and often neglects mana regen because it assumes you are going
to get most of that in a raid environment (10, 25 man) though
replenishment. In heroics, however, you often won't have
replenishment. So the 2500 gs gear may actually be poorly itemized for
heroics.
My advice, get a second set of pve gear for heroics if this continues
to be a problem (one that is a little lighter on the hps and one more
heavy in regen). I actually have 2 sets of pve gear, one maximizing
hps (for TotGC, for exmple), and a second that maximizes healing
longevity (high regen) for heroics and gimmicky raid boss fights. I
rarely go below 80% mana during any heroic at any point, and the hps
is sufficient for 5 man heroics, to the point where no one dies (or
even really comes close).
cryptoguy
wrote:
> cryptoguy wrote:
> > After we killed the Black Knight (the final boss), I whispered to the
> > tank that he should do readychecks and check mana levels before
> > pulling bosses.
>
> Well, checking mana, okay / of course, but Readychecking before every
> boss in a Heroic that people are geared for is simply annoying ;-)
>
> Most pugs I tanked, my girlfriend (sitting next to me) was healing, so
> much easier. "Pull?" "Okay" vroom! :-)
If everyone is OP for the instance (for example, heroic badge runs
with raid geared people) it doesn't matter. In this case, we had
fairly weak dps, which led to long fights, which led to mana
depletion.
My standard opening move is to cast Beacon on the tank, followed
immediately by Sacred Shield. That's two GCDs. If I then have to
follow the tank, I have only Holy Shock to heal him while I move; and
that's a fairly weak heal, albeit instant, with a longish CD. An
example of this is in Onyxia, where everyone has to get to the far end
of the room before things settle down.
Once settled, I cast a Flash of Light (FoL) on the tank, which also
provides a mild HoT (the only one pallies have) via gear bonuses. I
then (assuming the RL hasn't asked me to do something else)
concentrate on raid healing, relying on Beacon to keep the tank topped
up. That is done with a mixture of Holy Light (slow, expensive, very
large) and FoL (faster, much cheaper, and mid-sized).
The point is, if I have a couple seconds notice of the pull, I can get
Beacon and SS on the tank before he starts taking damage, and am in
much better shape to keep him up against the boss's own opening
moves.
pt
cryptoguy
> On Nov 24, 9:59 am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This was an extreme case, but I'm seeing a lot of tanks who pay no
> > attention to the situations of the other players. When, as a result,
> > they die from going out of range/out of line of sight/driving the
> > healer OOM, it's always the healer's fault.
>
> > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> This is just my point of view...
>
> The higher end-game pve gear (I'm assuming you have a lot of this per
> your gearscore) is itemized for maximizing hps (a lot of sp, haste,
> crit), and often neglects mana regen because it assumes you are going
> to get most of that in a raid environment (10, 25 man) though
> replenishment. In heroics, however, you often won't have
> replenishment. So the 2500 gs gear may actually be poorly itemized for
> heroics.
My main is a Holy Pally (Vamoose, Misha-US, if you want to look him
up). I have to spec for a mix of spellpower, int, haste, and mp5. I
have to take mana efficiency pretty seriously,
You make a good point; I find I'm more likely to go OOM with dealing
with a long heroic fight than with a raid boss (who'd have thunk it?).
1-healing a 5-man can be quite a challenge for a HP, since we don't
have much in the way of AOE heals. I find I'm very, very busy.
> My advice, get a second set of pve gear for heroics if this continues
> to be a problem (one that is a little lighter on the hps and one more
> heavy in regen). I actually have 2 sets of pve gear, one maximizing
> hps (for TotGC, for exmple), and a second that maximizes healing
> longevity (high regen) for heroics and gimmicky raid boss fights. I
> rarely go below 80% mana during any heroic at any point, and the hps
> is sufficient for 5 man heroics, to the point where no one dies (or
> even really comes close).
The thought has occurred. I currently carry 3 sets of gear; PvE
healing, Retribution (for off spec) and PvP healing. The last is
rarely used.
It would take me quite a long time to build a set for heroics, though
I may do so; got to find something to do with all those Conquest
badges....
pt
yojrod
>
> The thought has occurred. I currently carry 3 sets of gear; PvE
> healing, Retribution (for off spec) and PvP healing. The last is
> rarely used.
>
> It would take me quite a long time to build a set for heroics, though
> I may do so; got to find something to do with all those Conquest
> badges....
You wouldn't even need to build a complete set... maybe just 4-5 regen
pieces that you can switch in/out as needed.
Your story just sounded kind of familiar to me. I was seeing the same
thing when I ran heroics in 232/245 gear, especially if the dps was
low and the boss fights were long. Switching back to 213/219 gear
solved my problem...
ti...@thsu.org
chain pull the entire heroic, with only a few seconds out of combat
time, at most, between pulls. Half mana on the boss, even the end
boss, should still be a guaranteed one shot.
You just learn to deal with it. After a few runs like this, dealing
with the faster pace comes naturally, and you actually become annoyed
at slower paces.
First and foremost, change up your gear to include more mana regen
stats. I actually changed up my normal healing set to include more
stuff like Sif's Remembrance, which has both throughput and mana regen
stats, but before that, I would carry both throughput gear and regen
gear, and swap them around as needed.
Second, use your mana cooldowns early. You actually had a lot of
cooldowns you could have used early, to keep yourself full on mana.
A) As a pally, you have divine plea with only a one minute cooldown.
Use it every minute to top yourself off, especially during trash
pulls. By the time the boss comes around, you'll have plenty of mana.
B) You had a mage for biscuits, so you could have gotten 80 biscuits
at the start, and stopped to eat after every pull, immediately when
you got out of combat. Just one drink tick, after every pull, 2-3
ticks after the bosses, would have brought you back to near full mana
by the time the end boss came around, with no noticeable downtime to
drink.
C) You have alchemy, for the endless mana potion, on a one minute
cooldown. You could have used it during trash pulls and on earlier
bosses to top off your mana.
D) Your tank was a druid. You could have asked for innervates.
E) Your mage could have specced for replenishment, although I have
never found replenishment necessary for a heroic.
All in all, once you hit a certain gear level, chain pulling a heroic,
without any breaks, becomes the norm. There are a lot of ways to deal
with the faster pace, but the important thing to remember is that the
faster pace is doable, and people do it all the time. And yes, they
even do it with under geared players in the run.
--
// T.Hsu
neithskye
> This was an extreme case, but I'm seeing a lot of tanks who pay no
> attention to the situations of the other players. When, as a result,
> they die from going out of range/out of line of sight/driving the
> healer OOM, it's always the healer's fault.
Yeah, as another (Paladin) healer, I hear ya. One time, for example,
two DPS died died on Skadi in UP, and I kept the tank, the other DPS
and myself alive for like 10 minutes. After Skadi was downed, I
rebuffed the party, then dared sit down to drink, seeing that the tank
had already pulled the next room. "B-but," I sputtered in Vent, "I'm
in another room." "It's all good," was the reply. It's all good?
Not to mention, I've actually had casting SS steal aggro early on in a
fight.
Anyway, then you get the other end of it. I recently rolled a Druid on
another server. She's level 30 now, and the early instances have been
nightmares. The Shaman healer is the other main tankadin in our
raiding guild, so I always know to look out for his mana, etc. What
you get then are antsy DPS who decide to pull mobs for you. Seriously,
I can't even stop to take a drink of water or rebuff Thorns - that 10-
minute duration is annoying, but Recount shows it's a major source of
my threat - without some Hunter firing into a packed room. I'm new to
Druid tanking - I can't just toss down a Consecration, and thus far I
have one Taunt on a long CD and, hey, not enough rage to Swipe. So I
run around trying to grab aggro from several mobs - all because I
stopped to watch my healer's mana or rebuff MotW on my party.
I actually had one Hunter sigh in party chat, "I wish I'd rolled a
tank. Then I wouldn't have to wait so long". Yeah, but, no, instead
you rolled a Hunter.
I suppose for Deadmines and Stockades and SFK spec really doesn't
matter so much, but with the behaviors I've seen, I can see how folks
at level 80 act the way they do.
--
Jill
Catriona R
> Seriously,
>I can't even stop to take a drink of water or rebuff Thorns - that 10-
>minute duration is annoying, but Recount shows it's a major source of
>my threat - without some Hunter firing into a packed room.
Tip for you - Glyph of Thorns, makes it 60 mins when cast on yourself,
and it's a minor glyph so doesn't take up a major slot. My druid loves
it! :-)
>I'm new to
>Druid tanking - I can't just toss down a Consecration, and thus far I
>have one Taunt on a long CD and, hey, not enough rage to Swipe. So I
>run around trying to grab aggro from several mobs - all because I
>stopped to watch my healer's mana or rebuff MotW on my party.
Enrage is handy but longish cooldown, I know the feeling well, had
that whenever I pugged as a tank and it's really not fun - why can't
people just wait a few seconds till the tank's ready? :-/
--
EU-Draenor:
Sagart (80 Undead Priest)
Tairbh (80 Tauren Druid)
Buinne (78 Troll Shaman)
Balgair (72 Human Rogue)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Ruire (70 Blood Elf Paladin)
neithskye
> Tip for you - Glyph of Thorns, makes it 60 mins when cast on yourself,
> and it's a minor glyph so doesn't take up a major slot. My druid loves
> it! :-)
Yeah, I saw that on the AH. Unfortunately, my Druid is a new toon on a
new server with no rich main to fund her, and the last I checked, that
glyph was going for about 55 gold. My Druid currently has about . . .
30 gold total?
(My Paladin main is rich and can buy whatever he likes. It's been
interesting starting on a new server with 0 gold, realizing how
expensive things are - can't even train all your skills - and looking
for ways to make gold. I had much luck at first selling the
Strangekelp and Oily Blackmouth I've fished, but lately no one seems
to be buying.)
--
Jill
James Of Tucson
> Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
Well, it's just one in a long list of why you should strive to avoid
ever being in a situation where you need to run with someone you don't
already have a rapport with, let alone a PUG!
Tank players somehow get the impression that dps and healers are
interchangeable, and that they are higher on the food chain.
I turn that around and refer to tanks as thumb tacks.
I also laugh at anyone whose ego is so huge, yet they are looking for
people to run with, "must be geared" (translation: must not roll on
anything), etc. I laugh because anyone whose ego is as big as these
jackholes, ought to have a long, long list of people who would be
competing to run with him, not vice-versa.
Seriously, by the time you get to level 80 + purples, you should
really have accumulated such a long list of personal connections on
your realm, the veterans who brought you up, the lowbies who you
brought up, your real-life friends who you introduced to the game,
etc., etc., how can that list not be hundreds of names long by now?
Why on earth would a veteran EVER be LFG, or even LFM? It just tells
me he's pissed off everybody he's ever known, but the ego thing is so
gigantic that he doesn't realize it's a problem.
I've seen it time and time again.
Not specific to your incident, just a general observation.
James Of Tucson
>You just learn to deal with it.
Or maybe you run with people who you can trust, instead.
I would not put up with someone else's idea of "Standard Procedure" if
it's not a consensus among my group.
Justin Thompson
Amen to that.....
I am DPS.. if I pull aggro off the tank - thats my fault no matter how
bad the tank.
Likewise... IMHO - if the tank pulls whan healer not ready - that is
his/her prob... not the healers.
just MHO -
Cheers
ti...@thsu.org
> I would not put up with someone else's idea of "Standard Procedure" if
> it's not a consensus among my group.
Or maybe I've learned to deal with the speed, which allows me to do
two dungeons in the same amount of time that you do one dungeon.
Let's take the original poster, cryptoguy's, example. He did heroic
ToC5 in a record breaking time, with a random tank, with weak dps, and
with zero deaths.
That's an achievement to be proud of.
But instead of thinking that it's a one time event (or getting upset),
cryptoguy should think, "hey, I should be able to do it this fast all
the time".
This whole thread is like watching my nephew do a cartwheel and then
complaining that his teacher is mean for making him do something as
hard as a cartwheel.
Hello? You don't condone the whining. You tell him that the cartwheel
looked awesome, and that he should do it again, several more times.
And you praise his teacher for pushing him.
--
// T.Hsu
Jamie Kahn Genet
The tank was still an arse for saying what he did, and - in rather
pathetic fashion - ignoring the OP in order to avoid the consequences of
being a jerk. Ignore is supposed to be for jerks like the tank. Not the
other way around.
I can't believe people want to enable shitty behaviour like this.
--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Steve Kaye
> On Nov 24, 7:59 am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> really have accumulated such a long list of personal connections on
> your realm, the veterans who brought you up, the lowbies who you
> brought up, your real-life friends who you introduced to the game,
> etc., etc., how can that list not be hundreds of names long by now?
> Why on earth would a veteran EVER be LFG, or even LFM? It just tells
> me he's pissed off everybody he's ever known, but the ego thing is so
> gigantic that he doesn't realize it's a problem.
It all depends upon your play style and personal circumstances. For
example: you could be shy and avoid groups; you could have had that list
of friends but they all left or you could level really slowly so when
you do group you group only once with each person before they out-level you.
And I'd be surprised if many people had a list of friends that went into
the 100s. I'm the shy type so my in game friends list has exactly 2
players on it and they are both real life friends. My real life friends
list doesn't go into the 100s.
steve.kaye
--
Jengu - 80 Undead Death Knight Clokk - 74 Tauren Druid
Jelan - 80 Troll Priest Miho - 72 Blood Elf Rogue
Kibbs - 80 Blood Elf Paladin Jaille - 70 Blood Elf Warlock
Urbin
> On Nov 24, 7:59=A0am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> Well, it's just one in a long list of why you should strive to avoid
> ever being in a situation where you need to run with someone you don't
> already have a rapport with, let alone a PUG!
And how do you get a rapport with someone if you don't PUG?
> Tank players somehow get the impression that dps and healers are
> interchangeable, and that they are higher on the food chain.
Not an experience I have made, but YMMV.
> I turn that around and refer to tanks as thumb tacks.
Very kind of you.
> I also laugh at anyone whose ego is so huge, yet they are looking for
> people to run with, "must be geared" (translation: must not roll on
> anything), etc. I laugh because anyone whose ego is as big as these
> jackholes
Well, forgive me for saying so, but I have never seen you post before and
now I see three posts in which I think "what an arrogant guy" and then in
the third post you go and accuse others of being arrogant and calling them
names?
> Seriously, by the time you get to level 80 + purples, you should
> really have accumulated such a long list of personal connections on
> your realm, the veterans who brought you up, the lowbies who you
> brought up, your real-life friends who you introduced to the game,
> etc., etc., how can that list not be hundreds of names long by now?
Because my friend list only has 50 entries? Because most of these are in my
guild? Because occasionally their schedules and mine don't match? Because
sometimes I play when they aren't on or do something else?
> Why on earth would a veteran EVER be LFG, or even LFM?
Because I am looking for a group for daily heroics and my friends are all
busy elsewhere or have already done it or aren't online? Because it works
well on my realm and I rarely have bad PUG experiences?
> It just tells me he's pissed off everybody he's ever known,
> but the ego thing is so gigantic that he doesn't realize
> it's a problem.
Well, I've never yet encountered other people with huge egos in groups I
found through /LFG (but then I wouldn't recognise them since I have one as
large because I looked for them in /LFG by your definition). The only person
showing huge ego in this thread is you.
> I've seen it time and time again.
I've never seen it in PUGs
> Not specific to your incident, just a general observation.
Well, my observations differ.
Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (80), Dwarven Hunter | Surana (70), Draenei Mage
Mymule (80), Gnomish Warlock | Kordosch (65), Human Death Knight
Sunh (80), Nightelven Priest | Juran (33), Nightelven Druid
Catriona R
>James Of Tucson wrote:
>> On Nov 24, 7:59 am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>>
>> Seriously, by the time you get to level 80 + purples, you should
>> really have accumulated such a long list of personal connections on
>> your realm, the veterans who brought you up, the lowbies who you
>> brought up, your real-life friends who you introduced to the game,
>> etc., etc., how can that list not be hundreds of names long by now?
>> Why on earth would a veteran EVER be LFG, or even LFM? It just tells
>> me he's pissed off everybody he's ever known, but the ego thing is so
>> gigantic that he doesn't realize it's a problem.
>
>It all depends upon your play style and personal circumstances. For
>example: you could be shy and avoid groups; you could have had that list
>of friends but they all left or you could level really slowly so when
>you do group you group only once with each person before they out-level you.
>
>And I'd be surprised if many people had a list of friends that went into
>the 100s. I'm the shy type so my in game friends list has exactly 2
>players on it and they are both real life friends. My real life friends
>list doesn't go into the 100s.
My friends list has a dozen or so individual people on (60+ characters
but all have many alts), but most of those no longer play, or aren't
on when I am. It's not possible to make even a 5-man group out of my
friends that are actually likely to be online at any one time. I'm
sure there are some people who are really social and love to make
friends with everyone they meet, so do have hundreds of friends but
they definitely should never assume that everybody is like them.
Toolpackinmama
> I don't tolerate that. If I need to drink - I start drinking. If I'm
> still looting, I'll keep looting. If people bitch about that I point out
> they should wait for everyone to be ready. If they don't say sorry about
> that I leave.
>
Good for you.
Ashen Shugar
wrote something like...
I think I can see both sides of things. It sounds like the tank was
fairly rude to the original poster. But consider it from their
perspective. They'd just run through the instance in fine fashion.
No deaths and nice and quickly and then they get bitched at right at
the end. I can see how that might put a person in a bad mood.
To be honest, ToC is one instance where most of the time, you can't
rush it all that much as there's all the scripted stuff to work
though. It takes time once the jousting's finished before the 3 mobs
spawn. Not much but then again, it's not like you've been using your
mana or anything. Sure, someone *could* pull before people have cast
buffs and recovered their mana from doing that but I can't imagine
that would happen very often and you'd have said something about it at
the end of the fight while waiting for the next boss and the trash to
enter the arena, not at the end of the run.
Moving straight from the trash to the boss is pretty much how I've
always seen it happen, whether I've been tank, dps or heals. You
*know* the boss is going to "wake" up as soon as the last of the trash
is dead and could very well agro onto someone that didn't move far
enough away from them in time. Additionally, unless you have a weak
tank, you shouldn't be having to do all *that* much healing during the
trash fights. Conserving your mana during the trash fights just makes
sense.
And then there's ton's of time between that boss going down and the
Black Knight going agro. There's all the walking and talking the mobs
do. Even if someone activates the next stage right away there's time
enough to eat and drink back to full, so long as you're on the ball
and start drinking/eating reasonably quickly.
All that said, in a perfect world I think the original poster probably
should have mentioned earlier that the tank was moving faster than
they were comfortable with and the tank should have accepted that and
slowed down a bit. Granted, with so few pulls in ToC, there's not
much time to realise that things are going faster than you're
comfortable with before you're at the end.
Personally, when I tank I generally move fairly quickly. I think
ready checks are overkill. A check at the start of the instance sure,
and if something's happened to force a pause, okay. Yeah, the tank
should be keeping an eye on their "healers" mana, but that doesn't
mean standing around until the healer has full mana before each pull.
I don't know about anyone else, but I usually check my healers mana
during and after a fight. If they're only down 10% mana, I'll move
straight onto the next pull unless I see that they've stopped to
drink. As for the dps, I'm not all that worried about their mana.
Partially I guess because on my shadow priest I'm used to starting
fight with half mana or even less and not running out.
And healing on my priest just the other day in H-UK I was standing
around with half mana waiting for the tank to pull and they were like,
"don't you want to drink?" and it's like "oh yeah, I've got mage food
don't I, it's not a waste to drink already.". I didn't need anywhere
near 50% mana to keep the tank alive for that pull so I wasn't
planning on drinking. Heh, the only reason I was down to 50% mana was
because of all the dps I'd been doing. ; )
Rambled on enough. : )
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
Catriona R
>On Nov 30, 1:48�pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Tip for you - Glyph of Thorns, makes it 60 mins when cast on yourself,
>> and it's a minor glyph so doesn't take up a major slot. My druid loves
>> it! :-)
>
>Yeah, I saw that on the AH. Unfortunately, my Druid is a new toon on a
>new server with no rich main to fund her, and the last I checked, that
>glyph was going for about 55 gold. My Druid currently has about . . .
>30 gold total?
Argh, ouch! And if only prices of glyphs were like that on my server,
the market kinda collapsed within 2-3 weeks of the MMO Champion
article and never recovered, it's slowly climbing up but nothing gets
over about 20g now, most are 5-8g. Some glyphs were priced like that
while I was levelling too but fortunately I was skilling inscription,
so was usually just a matter of time until I discoered the recipe.
>(My Paladin main is rich and can buy whatever he likes. It's been
>interesting starting on a new server with 0 gold, realizing how
>expensive things are - can't even train all your skills - and looking
>for ways to make gold. I had much luck at first selling the
>Strangekelp and Oily Blackmouth I've fished, but lately no one seems
>to be buying.)
Yeah it's fun trying to make your own way with a fresh character, I
rarely do it on a new server but usually try to make my characters
financially independent and earning their own way... except I tend to
keep making things for them on my other characters with suitable
tradeskills so it's not total independence - always have glyphs and
gems available plus some crafted armour (the pieces which are good
enough to be worth finding the materials for)
Jamie Kahn Genet
Thanks. It troubles me to waste looting opportunities. I'll admit I'm
pretty fanatical about looting everything I possibly can (even opened a
ticket once when a mob died on a hillside and I couldn't reach it ...and
sat there till it vanished hoping to get an early GM response :-D ), but
I've had a few world drop epics now, and it's all the motivation I need
to loot even grey trash mobs :-D
The whole mad rush, rush, rush thing some people have got is at odds
with my philosophy that if it becomes too much like like work, WTF am I
doing playing? I'm ok with others not wanting to party with me because
I'm taking it easy (but not sloppily!). Better we both avoid stressing
the other in the future :-)
IYM
I'm the same way! If it ain't nailed down, I take it! The group I party
with will find a quiet spot during a instance and our bags are at about
75% and go through it. We'll trade and throw out what we don't want.
I'd rather find and chuck, rather than not find at all! :)
Jamie Kahn Genet
Likewise, plus my friends list is basically useless as it's always
filled, and I meet too many decent fun people to add them all. What do
you do in that situation? How can you track every good fun player you
meet? I can't (I'm useless remembering names IRL and even worse online)
so it's PUGs more often than not for me.
Jamie Kahn Genet
You've a point, and it's easy on my mage to just drink and eat whenever
I can, even if I can't finish it. But I find it somewhat painful on
other classes to waste stacks of high quality food and water I had to
buy. All well and good if a friendly mage was available to trade some
free water, but otherwise it annoys me. Still that's not much gold lost
and it is a minor annoyance, I'll admit.
Far worse is someone starting to pull while I'm eating buff food and the
buff has not yet kicked in. That really DOES hack me off.
I also don't worry about asking for a pause if I'm not full up before
engaging trash. But there's a limit to how often and how comfortable I
am starting fights _seriously_ OOM. Again - that really hacks me off.
If I've reserve mana I can handle the unpredictable - someone screwing
up, a lag spike, whatever. I've mana reserves for some big showy
shit-just-hit-the-fan spells. But if I don't then, well - I can't, and a
wipe that could have been easily avoided is a definite bummer.
James Of Tucson
> On Nov 30, 7:19 pm, James Of Tucson <james0tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would not put up with someone else's idea of "Standard Procedure" if
> > it's not a consensus among my group.
>
> Or maybe I've learned to deal with the speed, which allows me to do
> two dungeons in the same amount of time that you do one dungeon.
You have absolutely no idea what amount of time *I* do *one dungeon*.
neithskye
> Argh, ouch! And if only prices of glyphs were like that on my server,
> the market kinda collapsed within 2-3 weeks of the MMO Champion
> article and never recovered, it's slowly climbing up but nothing gets
> over about 20g now, most are 5-8g.
Although my alt server is older (created mid-2006), apparently all the
raiding folk transferred off at some point, leaving not many behind.
When I created my Druid last week, it was classified as "New Players",
so what you see are a lot of levelling characters. I wonder if that
has anything to do with it.
> Yeah it's fun trying to make your own way with a fresh character, I
> rarely do it on a new server but usually try to make my characters
> financially independent and earning their own way... except I tend to
> keep making things for them on my other characters with suitable
> tradeskills so it's not total independence.
Well unfortunately for me, my main server was down for almost 48 hours
last week - just at the start of my week-long vacation, no less - so
it was play on another server, or play not at all. And actually I've
been really enjoying learning to play the "How to Make Gold" game.
I never was an AH type, but I installed Auctioneer and started
scanning. Auctions don't seem to sell at all on weekends for some
reason. Anyway, I always knew that the early fish were good sellers,
as is Stranglekelp, so I just started listing things at reasonable
prices. It's so addictive; I get such a thrill every time I see a "A
buyer has been found for your auction of XXX" message.
It's also nice you can train that third level of Fishing at the
trainer now, instead of having to get the quest from Paigle in
DWMarsh. He's surrounded (or was) by level 43 Threshers, so getting a
level 28 or 30 character to see him was impossible, so once you
reached 225/225 Fishing, all casts afterwards were "freebies". My
level 30 Druid is proud to not only have new AH skills, but 286
Fishing. :-)
--
Jill
James Of Tucson
> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:16:34 -0800 (PST), James Of Tucson wrote:
> > On Nov 24, 7:59=A0am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> > Well, it's just one in a long list of why you should strive to avoid
> > ever being in a situation where you need to run with someone you don't
> > already have a rapport with, let alone a PUG!
>
> And how do you get a rapport with someone if you don't PUG?
During the months or years on the way to Heroics, yes.
Or at that level. But it's the arrogance we're talking about. People
who egotistically make themselves out to be all that and a plate of
strawberries, but who somehow don't have any high-level friends who
will run with them, so they are out LFG, but being arrogant and rude
about it... usually looking for people who won't roll on anything, or
looking for a group that's geared a certain way so that it won't be
hard for them.
> > Tank players somehow get the impression that dps and healers are
> > interchangeable, and that they are higher on the food chain.
>
> Not an experience I have made, but YMMV.
>
> > I turn that around and refer to tanks as thumb tacks.
>
> Very kind of you.
>
> > I also laugh at anyone whose ego is so huge, yet they are looking for
> > people to run with, "must be geared" (translation: must not roll on
> > anything), etc. I laugh because anyone whose ego is as big as these
> > jackholes
>
> Well, forgive me for saying so, but I have never seen you post before and
> now I see three posts in which I think "what an arrogant guy" and then in
> the third post you go and accuse others of being arrogant and calling them
> names?
Yeah, I've been around for years.
James Of Tucson
<jill_bookerGREENEGGSANDS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I saw that on the AH. Unfortunately, my Druid is a new toon on a
> new server with no rich main to fund her
I'm far more impressed by that, personally, than by anybody's twink,
or any geared 80.
I think it actually takes guts to start a char on a realm where you
don't know anybody who can give you bank or stuff, or run you
through. It also helps you recognize whether you're one of those
players who actually enjoys the game, or one of those whose objective
is essentially "to get the game over with as quickly as possible."
The latter tend to be the DK's who sit in lowbie zones and do 6000
overkill hits 0.1 seconds after someone flags.
How bored does someone have to be, to do that? It's pretty sad,
actually.
cryptoguy
> On Nov 24, 7:59 am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> Well, it's just one in a long list of why you should strive to avoid
> ever being in a situation where you need to run with someone you don't
> already have a rapport with, let alone a PUG!
My, you're full of yourself, aren't you?
I'm not some kid who can play 5 hours a night, every night. When I get
on, I want to be able to do the daily heroic quickly, and soon. I
rarely have bad experiences PUGging 5-mans, heroic or not. 90% of the
time, they work out just fine.
My friends lists is short - I don't add people to it until I know them
well. My guild doesn't raid much, but I stay in it because (1) my
schedule is busy and variable enough that I can't set aside the time
even a casual raiding guild requires (especially for something as low
priority as a gamed) and (2) it's my daughter's guild; I'm helping her
level.
I get praised for my healing far, far more often than I get
criticized. It's because criticism is rare that I brought it up in
this thread. Whenever I get on, I actually have to deal with a steady
stream of whispered requests to heal this, that, and the other. I
guess I've been added to far more friends lists than I have added
others.
[...]
> Seriously, by the time you get to level 80 + purples, you should
> really have accumulated such a long list of personal connections on
> your realm, the veterans who brought you up, the lowbies who you
> brought up, your real-life friends who you introduced to the game,
> etc., etc., how can that list not be hundreds of names long by now?
> Why on earth would a veteran EVER be LFG, or even
> LFM? It just tells me he's pissed off everybody he's
> ever known, but the ego thing is so
> gigantic that he doesn't realize it's a problem.
What this tells me is that you have very little experience with the
variety of ways people interact with the game, or styles of play.
pt
Shiflet
"James Of Tucson" <james0...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1fa48cc-6046-4a1f...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 1, 4:16 am, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> During the months or years on the way to Heroics, yes.
How does that work? On my servers, you could find a pug run to successfully
full clear Ulduar in less time than it takes to find people to actually PLAY
with in pre-80 content. If you're lucky you'll find 1-2 people working on
the same group quest as you, and even THAT is often not possible. And let's
face it, killing Lurzan and Knucklerot with 2 random people you met in
Ghostlands, or teaming up with a couple DKs running through Nagrand to kill
one of the Nesingwary elites is hardly a real good way to judge if you agree
with someone's playstyle in raids/heroics. Or do you mean talking with
people in trade and stuff and befriending them that way? If so, that's not
really a good way to judge either...just cause I get on well with someone
doesn't automatically mean I share their playstyle or would want them
tanking or healing my raid.
cryptoguy
> On Nov 30, 7:19 pm, James Of Tucson <james0tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would not put up with someone else's idea of "Standard Procedure" if
> > it's not a consensus among my group.
>
> Or maybe I've learned to deal with the speed, which allows me to do
> two dungeons in the same amount of time that you do one dungeon.
>
> Let's take the original poster, cryptoguy's, example. He did heroic
> ToC5 in a record breaking time, with a random tank, with weak dps, and
> with zero deaths.
>
> That's an achievement to be proud of.
>
> But instead of thinking that it's a one time event (or getting upset),
> cryptoguy should think, "hey, I should be able to do it this fast all
> the time".
If there'd been an agreement to go for a speed record at the start, it
would have been a different matter. I do enjoy doing it quickly, but
we were at the bleeding edge - if there'd been a bad RNG we could have
easily wiped. I don't like wiping, it wastes time. "Too much haste,
not enough speed".
Check my main out if you want (Vamoose, Misha-US). He's not shabbily
geared, and you'll note that I've actually put mana efficiency at a
high priority. Despite this, I still had to pop pretty much all my
available cooldowns to get through this. I prefer, for example, NOT to
use up an expensive Flask just to get through the daily. The daily is
a chore, a farm run for badges, and I don't want to make it cost more,
or take longer (which a wipe would certainly cause) than I have to.
pt
Urbin
> On Dec 1, 4:16=A0am, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:16:34 -0800 (PST), James Of Tucson wrote:
> > > =A0On Nov 24, 7:59=3DA0am, cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
> >
> > > =A0ever being in a situation where you need to run with someone you don=
> 't
> > > =A0already have a rapport with, let alone a PUG!
> >
> > And how do you get a rapport with someone if you don't PUG?
>
> During the months or years on the way to Heroics, yes.
> Or at that level. But it's the arrogance we're talking about. People
> who egotistically make themselves out to be all that and a plate of
> strawberries, but who somehow don't have any high-level friends who
> will run with them, so they are out LFG, but being arrogant and rude
> about it... usually looking for people who won't roll on anything, or
> looking for a group that's geared a certain way so that it won't be
> hard for them.
Ok, with this statement I can live. Your earlier post somehow started to
sound like anybody PUGgin heroics or using the LFG tool was an arrogant
idiot. A point I would have heatedly argued against :-)
> > > =A0Tank players somehow get the impression that dps and healers are
> > > =A0interchangeable, and that they are higher on the food chain.
> >
> > Not an experience I have made, but YMMV.
> >
> > > =A0I turn that around and refer to tanks as thumb tacks.
> >
> > Very kind of you.
> >
> > > =A0I also laugh at anyone whose ego is so huge, yet they are looking
> > > =for A0people to run with, "must be geared" (translation: must not
> > > =roll on A0anything), etc. =A0I laugh because anyone whose ego is as
> > > =big as these A0jackholes
> >
> > Well, forgive me for saying so, but I have never seen you post before
> > and now I see three posts in which I think "what an arrogant guy" and
> > then in the third post you go and accuse others of being arrogant and
> > calling them names?
>
> Yeah, I've been around for years.
Ok, I stand corrected. Your name just hasn't rung a bell before today.
James Of Tucson
> Ok, I stand corrected. Your name just hasn't rung a bell before today.
To be fair, I've never posted under this name before today, and no I'm
not disclosing my alteridentity ;-)
James Of Tucson
> What this tells me is that you have very little experience with the
> variety of ways people interact with the game, or styles of play.
I think you'd be quite surprised as to my experience, but thanks for
sharing.
James Of Tucson
> on, I want to be able to do the daily heroic quickly, and soon.
The way I see it, this is the threshold where the game has become more
like work than fun. You want to get it over with...
If you don't like me you're free to ignore. I'm never posting here
again, now that I remember why I left.
gernot almen
>> variety of ways people interact with the game, or styles of play.
>
> I think you'd be quite surprised as to my experience, but thanks for
> sharing.
If you claim experience, than how about:
What this tells me is that you have very little tolerance with the
Urbin
Hu? Why would you want to post under two different names here? The only
reason I can think of is that your other identity has been killfiled by most
regulars...
cryptoguy
Don't let the door hit you on the way out....
pt
Hoofu&Oggie
>We had to PUG a tank, and woundup with a 2700gs Druid
gs?
> Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
Have you ever played a Rage tank? I'm not defending this guy's
attitude, but in defence of the broader tanking community, I never
really understood warrior tanking until I tried it myself. Your mana
might improve over time, e.g. by taking a break to drink, but the
warrior/druid is on the opposite mechanic. My resource is depleting
over time, and if I start a fight on 0 rage, and the DPS is a little
over-eager, then I have to faceroll like crazy to avoid deaths. Most
of the time I can Charge into the fight and get some starting rage,
but the best way to keep aggro is to get to the next set of mobs as
soon as possible and get that Thunderclap and Shield Slam in before
the DPS gets a chance to let rip. I'm not as manic as this guy, I
wouldn't start an event with the healer on low mana, but I do
understand the urge to get back into a fight and stay angry.
Ognian, 80 troll warrior, Argent Dawn (EU)
cryptoguy
> cryptoguy wrote:
> >We had to PUG a tank, and woundup with a 2700gs Druid
>
> gs?
>
> > Just venting I guess, but I wonder if others are seeing this as well.
>
> Have you ever played a Rage tank? I'm not defending this guy's
> attitude, but in defence of the broader tanking community, I never
> really understood warrior tanking until I tried it myself. Your mana
> might improve over time, e.g. by taking a break to drink, but the
> warrior/druid is on the opposite mechanic.
That's an interesting point. It looks like there is an unavoidable
tension between mana-users and rage-users.
At the very least, I'd like a 'Pulling' message before starting a new
fight, so I can make my opening moves (Beacon, Sacred Sheild) *before*
the tank needs healing.
pt
josephus
actually I had occaision to run into some ARROGANT guildies. I
complained that we could not invite ( officers could not invite) and
nobody could access the guild. when I spoke up. the guild master
gave me a ration of chaff. I was not suggesting he was an idiot, but
he did talk to me that way. What he wanted from me was references.
REFERENCES? this is a public game with people from all over in it.
kids, not the least. now I was INVITED in to the guild. ok 3 months
before. I play at all hours mostly at night I play SOLO a lot. I gquit
that guild.
the problem is that real mental problems are rare. and some people are
more legalistic others. for any symptom of a psychosis, a normal
person may show just one of the symtoms. a quirk not a problem. but it
does cause friction.
josephus
Miikka
> And I'd be surprised if many people had a list of friends that went into
> the 100s. I'm the shy type so my in game friends list has exactly 2
> players on it and they are both real life friends. My real life friends
> list doesn't go into the 100s.
87 on my friendslist. Some RL friends and their alts, some from a former
guild, but by far the majority (50+) is my AH competitors and their alts...
I guess it's the case of keeping friends close and enemies closer. :)
--
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society." -Mark Twain
Miikka
> Likewise, plus my friends list is basically useless as it's always
> filled, and I meet too many decent fun people to add them all. What do
> you do in that situation? How can you track every good fun player you
> meet? I can't (I'm useless remembering names IRL and even worse online)
> so it's PUGs more often than not for me.
For that, I'm using an outdated addon called DoIKnowYou, basically it
keeps a database of players who I can give a + or a - and a short note
about them. Integrates nicely with chat and LFG, so the + people get
highlighted in green. There also used to be a lot more thorough addon
for this called Karma, but I think both of them have been abandoned.
If people have an addon for this that is still getting updated, I'd
love to know the name. :)
Though of course this doesn't really work as a friendlist, it's more
for the times you're sitting in LFG and think to yourself if that
name was someone you had dealings with before, and possibly helps
to see who to avoid grouping with. :)
Hoofu&Oggie
> That's an interesting point. It looks like there is an unavoidable
> tension between mana-users and rage-users.
I'm sure it's deliberate, and I think it makes for an interesting
game, having seen it from two of the three sides (I've never played a
serious DPS spec in a group).
Hoofu, 80 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
twk
wrote:
> Jamie Kahn Genet <jam...@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Likewise, plus my friends list is basically useless as it's always
> > filled, and I meet too many decent fun people to add them all. What do
> > you do in that situation? How can you track every good fun player you
> > meet? I can't (I'm useless remembering names IRL and even worse online)
> > so it's PUGs more often than not for me.
>
> For that, I'm using an outdated addon called DoIKnowYou, basically it
> keeps a database of players who I can give a + or a - and a short note
> about them. Integrates nicely with chat and LFG, so the + people get
> highlighted in green. There also used to be a lot more thorough addon
> for this called Karma, but I think both of them have been abandoned.
> If people have an addon for this that is still getting updated, I'd
> love to know the name. :)
I use NotesUNeed
<http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/notes-uneed.aspx>
Once you add someone to your friends or ignore list, you can add a
comment about them. When you mouse over someone you've made a comment
on, a pop-up window will show your note.
It continues to work even after you've deleted them from your friends or
ignore list. Deleting someone from your lists does not delete the
comment. It's great.
--
Hypanthia, Night Elf, Shadow Priest, Enchantress/Herbalist.
Cowpattee, Tauren, Druid, Enchantress/Herbalist.