Is DKP worth it in TBC?
robb...@googlemail.com
We have circa 30 regular raiders and we are now pushing TK/SSC and
MH.
Problem is we have some slackers who just like turning up for the easy
ride and a new shiney epic.
They turn up and queue up for gruul as we can clear it in no time but
when it comes to new raids and a wipe fest on new bosses its amazing
how many run for cover..
The only way round this is either
a) get hard and start kicking (which is kinda counter productive as we
lose members then cant raid)
or
b) introduce a system akin to dkp...points means prizes.
Its a bit late in the day with WoTLK around the corner to really try
and convince everyone to use DKP but i wondered what you guys say on
the matter ?
Should we start it now ? is it worth it ? does it work ? and if
yes..which system ?
ty.
Jacques De Schepper
9d80396c-ce5f-4ed8...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com,
"robb...@googlemail.com" <robb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Every guild is different, so it is hard for us to say which system would
work for you. But I can tell you how we tackled the loot topic, it might
give you inspiration... We faced the problems you mentioned and after
several iterations, this is the DKP system we are using now and everybody is
happy with:
We award 5 DKP per run for everybody that is ontime (i.e. At the instance
portal 5 mins prior to the official start). Then we award one single value
for an entire night of raiding:
- 5 DKP for farm content
(everything we do has been killed at least 3 times)
- 15 DKP for recently killed content
(one of the bosses was killed 3x or less)
- 25 DKP for new content
(at least one of the bosses was never killed before)
That's it for awarding DKP. Keeps it simple, so manageable and rewards the
people that do the 'hard work' with more chance at nice epics :) For
spending it, we use open bidding in raid chat. As this helps keeping DKP
balanced.
We also use separate DKP databases per 'tier' of loot.
We don't know when WotLK is gonna hit us, but I think it definitely make
sense to introduce the system now, so everyone gets to know it before the
expansion hits, and adjustments can be made based on feedback.
Hoped this helped you a bit
Shammy
r> Should we start it now ? is it worth it ? does it work ? and if
r> yes..which system ?
What system are you using now?
robb...@googlemail.com
OK
we currently use this:
1) you join the guild on trial basis. you must attend 4 25man raids
to earn member status.
2) No trial member can roll on any Tier tokens but may roll on epic
items if class permits use.
3) Members can roll on tier tokens for their main role ie tank or fury/
arms but not for off spec unless agreed with RL.
4) RL may award tokens to priority class member following discussion
with officers and CL's if deemed beneficial to player.
For instancs like Gruul it works fine but for new content it can
become an interesting discussion.
We used to run dkp..but with the regular players all having more than
enough dkp to buy the items they want the new players dont have any
but get the sympathy epics in that the others dont need the item.
if our numbers increase more (which they look like they will) i can
see a need for dkp but not really sure if its right.
NarKoMechBass
> So this is my dilemma.
>
> We have circa 30 regular raiders and we are now pushing TK/SSC and
> MH.
>
> Problem is we have some slackers who just like turning up for the easy
> ride and a new shiney epic.
>
> They turn up and queue up for gruul as we can clear it in no time but
> when it comes to new raids and a wipe fest on new bosses its amazing
> how many run for cover..
>
Old story, sad, old story
>
> The only way round this is either
>
> a) get hard and start kicking (which is kinda counter productive as we
> lose members then cant raid)
>
No, isn't counter productive because "losing a coward only sgortern
the road to victory"
>
> or
>
> b) introduce a system akin to dkp...points means prizes.
>
More easy: make the CL decide who can and who cannot :) (in this way
only in your round table will be known that the coward will drop after
the heroes)
>
> Its a bit late in the day with WoTLK around the corner to really try
> and convince everyone to use DKP but i wondered what you guys say on
> the matter ?
>
If u read my post about dkp (http://groups.google.com/group/
alt.games.warcraft/browse_thread/thread/2aa17a9423def4b2#), i HATE
it...
>
> Should we start it now ? is it worth it ? does it work ? and if
> yes..which system ?
>
look @ my post... it's only MY idea, not THE idea but... it may be
usefull
>
> ty.
robb...@googlemail.com
raid rolls are a pain in the ass.
lucky rolls can cause regular raiders to pull their hair out and storm
off to uber guild just to get more gear.
why are we such loot whores now anyway ?
I think the best way forward is be flexible and rely more on class
leaders and senior members saying "Yes or No".
I think our system of having trial status relate to number of raids
attended gives the more frequent players the better chance of a tier
token award.
DKP is a last resort and one im trying to avoid.
Candido
> I think our system of having trial status relate to number of raids
> attended gives the more frequent players the better chance of a tier
> token award.
>
> DKP is a last resort and one im trying to avoid.
Nothing wrong with DKP.
How can you know who are the most frequent players?
DKP. :)
--
Candido
robb...@googlemail.com
in a guild of 30 raiding players its not hard to see who is
consistently attending and who isnt.
Candido
> in a guild of 30 raiding players its not hard to see who is
> consistently attending and who isnt.
Using DKP is not hard too.
--
Candido
mbg...@gmail.com
> I think the best way forward is be flexible and rely more on class
> leaders and senior members saying "Yes or No".
Respectfully, the system you describe ("Loot council") is what I've
noticed to be the worst of the worst loot systems, because it pulls in
human judgement, and human judgement will *always* entail some level
of bias.
IMHO, the only fair loot systems are ones with set non-human driven
rules. Even rolls work here as, though there is a level of chance, at
least it's a non-biased computer that it's being left up to.
Now, with that said, IMHO, DKP is a very easy way to go, and works
great. Players who do more receive more - as simple as that. You did
highlight the problem with experienced raiders having so much more DKP
that new raiders only get "leftovers", but the easiest way to do that
is to implement a bid system rather than a fixed cost system. In a
bid system, a really good item can drag down a raider's DKP in a
heartbeat. In our guild for example, we do bidding, with a 25 DKP min
bid on weapons and tier pieces, and 15 DKP min bid on everything
else. DKP spread for frequent raiders hovers between 100 and 1200
DKP. You'd think that "Man, I'll never catch that guy with 1200
DKP.", but that's not always the case. A trinket (Tsunami Talisman)
dropped in SSC the other day that ended up getting bid to 300 DKP for
that one item. Tier pants often pull 150-200 DKP. On the flip side,
when a new guy gets a "leftover", he normally only pays the minimum
bid for it. So with veterans paying top dollar, and new guys paying
the minimum most of the time, everyone tends to even out over time.
Mike
robb...@googlemail.com
So
how do you manage the dkp ?
do you use a web based system ? or is just good old pen and paper ?
how do you know when a player is bidding for stuff that he cant
afford ?
where do you start and how do you set it for old players been here
years...etc..
Candido
> do you use a web based system ?
This one.
> how do you know when a player is bidding for stuff that he cant
> afford ?
We keep the webpage open. :)
--
Candido
Hans
<robb...@googlemail.com> schreef in bericht
news:9d80396c-ce5f-4ed8...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Whether it is worth it, is a bit of a gamble on Blizzard.
In order to decide I think it is good to think about the reasons why
DKP is better than rolling on the long run.
But lets first plug the DKP system my warlock's guild had while It was
alive (the guild died previous vacation when guild leader took a 8 week
break). We raided SSC and TK for about 3 months.
We used EQ dkp (downloadable), and only for the 25 man.
Our standard: an item used by a player >>> disenchanted item. always.
A lot of items obviously benefit certain roles best. Players of that role
have priority.
We had fixed prices for items: generally fairly simple: 200, 400, 600 or
800.
We kept running totals of DKP for each player.
If more players wanted an item and one player was clearly above all others
in DKP (and had the appropriate role) got the item, in other cases we
rolled.
If nobody wanted an item, but the officers saw an under equipped player,
with a bad item in the corresponding slot, they could force the item on the
player (officers voted amongst themselves).
As soon as a player got an item in either way, his personal DKP was lowered
immediately.
On the end of a week we totalled the DKP payed and the player-hours made.
We divided the DKP by the hours (2 decimal fractions) to determine DKP/hour
and awarded everyone for the hours they raided.
Note that each week the amount of DKP payed and awarded is equal, a so
called zero-sum system.
The advantage of giving DKP once a week as we did is that the later raids
have serious chance to be wipe-only raids, so DKP focussed players might
try to skip those.
The advantage of zero-sum DKP is that players who enter the system later,
have good chances to items.
Now reviewing the reason DKP is better than rolling (IMO only if the
following
applies)
Suppose a 25 man dungeon, say SSC offers upgrades for 12 slots for a
certain class. (Value 12 choosen for convenient dividability). A run gets
less than 25 usefull items, so 'one for each' per run doesn't work.
Implicitly, with rolling, people are only allowed to roll on items which are
upgrades, not on items they already have.
Suppose someone who has hardly raided and can use the items for
all 12 slots, he gets 12 chances.
Suppose someone who made his epics and has raided karazhan for
a whole, maybe he only needs items for 6 slots, he gets only 6 rolls,
half the chance to roll....
Suppose someone who raids SSC with the guild for a long time.
Maybe he only needs items for 2 slots, he gets only 2 rolls, one sixth
of the chance of the unprepared.
With rolling, the more you have and did for the guild, the less you get,
and not just a little bit.
This effect is only important if you expect serious difference in players,
I guess that is true for your guild.
HTH
Hans
crv...@gmail.com
I thought I would throw out my guild's System to see what you think.
First of all everyone in the raid has a chance to recieve loot, with
preference going to Main, Alt, Offspec in that order. Each Boss has
his own "Boss Points" you can accumulate. The first time the guild
downs a boss you get 3 points, 2 for 2nd and 1 after that. If you've
never downed the boss you get 1pt per wipe.
Once loot is dropped, you /roll (# Boss Points * 10) with the highest
roll getting the item. So if you have a raider that has tried every
attempt they will have more of a chance to win an item vs. the noob
that just showed up, but the noob aloway has a chance. I recently saw
a raider /roll 120 and lose to another person who /roll 30, but it
doesn't happen very often.
Since the Boss Points are tied to a specific Boss, you can't rack up
points on the easy content and spend them on the new boss that was
just downed.
Curious what everyone's thoughts on this system are.
mbg...@gmail.com
In my old guild we used EQDKP on the web side, and tracked DKP using a
modified version of CT_RaidTracker (I setup and ran this system for my
guild, so I can answer any questions you'd have regarding that setup).
In my current guild, we have use www.webdkp.com, which also keeps
track of stuff on the website. It has a companion addon that will
keep track of DKP in game even live during a raid, but we always go by
what's on the website first and foremost.
Both systems work fine, though I preferred the EQDKP setup myself (a
big reason being we could self-host it rather than going with a third
party site).
As to old players, everyone should be understanding, and any new DKP
system should start out at zero for everyone. Again, if you try to
put any judgement into the system, you're going to let bias creep
in.
Mike
Urbin
> Now reviewing the reason DKP is better than rolling (IMO only if the
> following applies)
>
> Suppose a 25 man dungeon, say SSC offers upgrades for 12 slots for a
> certain class. (Value 12 choosen for convenient dividability). A run gets
> less than 25 usefull items, so 'one for each' per run doesn't work.
>
> Implicitly, with rolling, people are only allowed to roll on items which are
> upgrades, not on items they already have.
>
> Suppose someone who has hardly raided and can use the items for
> all 12 slots, he gets 12 chances.
> Maybe he only needs items for 2 slots, he gets only 2 rolls, one sixth
> of the chance of the unprepared.
But that stays the same with DKP. A person who only needs upgrades on 2
slots because all his other slots are already "maxed out" always has a lower
chance of getting an upgrade as only 2 drops are meaningful to him while
somebody who has 12 upgradeable slots obviously has better chances to get an
upgrade.
In your example above the better equipped player still only gets 2 rolls
(because the 10 other drops are not upgrades for him). What it does is just
that it limits the "number of rolls" the under-equipped player can make, as
he won't be able to roll on all 12 possible upgrades, as he won't be able to
afford to, due to a lack of DKP. He may still decide to spend his DKP on
exactly those two drops that the better equipped player needs, gaining that
player nothing.
> With rolling, the more you have and did for the guild, the less you get,
> and not just a little bit.
This can also occur with DKP: Even if a player has massive amounts of DKP,
if there are only very few upgrades left that he needs, the chance that his
required upgrade drops is of course a lot lower than for someone who can
make use of almost any drop. Of course once said item drops, the player with
a massive DKP account then has better chances of actually getting it :-)
I am not saying, that a DKP system is bad (I don't raid and have therefore
no experience with it), I just think that even with a DKP system their can
be situations that are not easily solved.
On the whole, I guess a zero sum DKP system seems to be fairest to new and
old members of a raid group.
Cheers
Urbin
--
Dun Morogh-EU (PvE)
Urbin (70), Dwarven Hunter | Surana (30), Draenei Mage
Mymule (70), Gnomish Warlock | Juran (33), Nightelven Druid
Sunh (70), Nightelven Priest | Gera (26), Human Paladin
Shammy
U> therefore no experience with it), I just think that even with a DKP
U> system their can be situations that are not easily solved.
Nothing can be worse than someone that just joined a guild gets something
over someone that has been waiting the drop for a long time.
We had a mage in MC that waited for the mageblade to drop 1 year (it just
didnt want to drop) and it dropped once and never again. The mage did ALL MC
runs in that time to get that blade, he already had everything else
possible, now immagine if he had to /roll with a new member....
NarKoMechBass
> On Jun 30, 9:53�am, robbo...@googlemail.com wrote:
> > I think the best way forward is be flexible and rely more on class
> > leaders and senior members saying "Yes or No".
>
> Respectfully, the system you describe ("Loot council") is what I've
> noticed to be the worst of the worst loot systems, because it pulls in
> human judgement, and human judgement will *always* entail some level
> of bias.
>
> IMHO, the only fair loot systems are ones with set non-human driven
> rules. Even rolls work here as, though there is a level of chance, at
> least it's a non-biased computer that it's being left up to.
>
> Now, with that said, IMHO, DKP is a very easy way to go, and works
> great. Players who do more receive more - as simple as that.
You are right, but the problem is that with a bid system you too put
human judgement in... i.e. think about a drop that can upgrade abit
the equip of a old-regular-always-on raider and can change totally the
gear of a demi-regular raider (i.e. a raider that work turnation)...
if you use bidding dkp system, the demi-regular has no possibility to
take the piece he need to improve himself because he will be
overbidded by old-regular-raider (his only chance is the old-raider
humanity, and i DON'T trust in humanity when we talk about violet-
pixel)
NarKoMechBass
>
> Suppose someone who has hardly raided and can use the items for
> all 12 slots, he gets 12 chances.
> Suppose someone who made his epics and has raided karazhan for
> a whole, maybe he only needs items for 6 slots, he gets only 6 rolls,
> half the chance to roll....
> Suppose someone who raids SSC with the guild for a long time.
> Maybe he only needs items for 2 slots, he gets only 2 rolls, one sixth
> of the chance of the unprepared.
> With rolling, the more you have and did for the guild, the less you get,
> and not just a little bit.
>
I cannot understand what u r saying... what's means "the more u du,
the less u get"?
If u need 2 piece in a 24-piece run, u roll (or bid) only 2 times...
or u r saying that because he have raided a lot he have the RIGHT to
bid/roll also for piece he doesn't need?
In your example, also using dkp the uber-player would bid only 2
pieces
>
> This effect is only important if you expect serious difference in players,
>
a guild doesn't loose or acquire NEVER new players there is no
substantial difference between players
Candido
> Nothing can be worse than someone that just joined a guild gets something
> over someone that has been waiting the drop for a long time.
Agree.
--
Candido
Candido
> This can also occur with DKP: Even if a player has massive amounts of DKP,
> if there are only very few upgrades left that he needs, the chance that his
> required upgrade drops is of course a lot lower than for someone who can
> make use of almost any drop. Of course once said item drops, the player with
> a massive DKP account then has better chances of actually getting it :-)
Once you get that piece, next time you will not need it anymore, so the
casual raider can get it at a low price.
Is not a good thing to piss off regular raiders letting casual to get
prizes with a minimal afford, because the regulars will fly aways soon
to another guild...
--
Candido
Urbin
> Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > This can also occur with DKP: Even if a player has massive amounts of DKP,
> > if there are only very few upgrades left that he needs, the chance that his
> > required upgrade drops is of course a lot lower than for someone who can
> > make use of almost any drop. Of course once said item drops, the player with
> > a massive DKP account then has better chances of actually getting it :-)
>
> Once you get that piece, next time you will not need it anymore, so the
> casual raider can get it at a low price.
True. I was not advocating that the new member should get the [Very rarely
seen uber-item of pwnage] over the old member.
> Is not a good thing to piss off regular raiders letting casual to get
> prizes with a minimal afford, because the regulars will fly aways soon
> to another guild...
I totally agree.
I was responding to his statement that with a roll based system "a player
who is badly equipped on 12 slots" gets 12 chances at an upgrade (assuming a
raid where 12 items drop, one for each slot) whereas "a player who is maxed
out in 10 slots and needs 2 upgrades" only gets 2 chances at an upgrade.
I was trying to say that the chances for an upgrade for the older player
does not increase with DKP over a roll based system, because he can still
only use 2 out of 12 drops, all DKP does is make sure that the new player
does not get the chance to roll 12/12 times because his DKP account is
lacking.
And depending on what DKP system is used, it would theoretically still be
possible for the new player to win on of the 2 upgrades the older player
uses.
This is not an argument to say the new player should get the new piece or
that DKP sucks. All I wanted to point out, that even with a DKP system,
there will always be the chance for situations where loot drama may occur.
Ashen Shugar
like...
Actually, I would think that a DKP system does get the older, more
geared player an increased chance at their two drops than a plain
/roll system. Though it would be a changing chance. If they'd been
saving their DKP for a while, in just about any DKP system that would
mean they'd have a higher chance at getting an item than someone who
hadn't had a chance to save up as much DKP. The particular DKP system
may still give the newer player a chance at it too, but it would
almost have to be less than that of the older player. Only situation
where the newer player might have a higher chance at those two drops
is if they'd been playing long enough and not winning enough to save
up some DKP and the older player had just recently spent all theirs
getting the 3rd last item they were after.
But that's more of a nitpick than anything. Like you say, "Loot drama
happens".
(though fortunately if it happens in my guild, it's quiet enough that
I don't hear about it and have to put up with the whining. ; )
Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
Candido
> I was responding to his statement that with a roll based system "a player
> who is badly equipped on 12 slots" gets 12 chances at an upgrade (assuming a
> raid where 12 items drop, one for each slot) whereas "a player who is maxed
> out in 10 slots and needs 2 upgrades" only gets 2 chances at an upgrade.
I think that the problem is a little bit different. You get an upgrade
when (1) the loot is the item you need and (2) you win that item.
So, DKPs are useful on (2) more then /roll, IMVHO. Once the (1) happens,
I think you have to give more chances to older raiders to get the item:
no pain no gain.. :-)
P.S. English is not my main language, so maybe I just don't understand
well what you wrote, so pay a little patience with me, please! :-)
--
Candido
mbg...@gmail.com
> You are right, but the problem is that with a bid system you too put
> human judgement in... i.e. think about a drop that can upgrade abit
> the equip of a old-regular-always-on raider and can change totally the
> gear of a demi-regular raider (i.e. a raider that work turnation)...
> if you use bidding dkp system, the demi-regular has no possibility to
> take the piece he need to improve himself because he will be
> overbidded by old-regular-raider (his only chance is the old-raider
> humanity, and i DON'T trust in humanity when we talk about violet-
> pixel)
Not human judgement in the same fashion though. In a bid DKP system
there are hard numbers to back things up. People can spend as much as
they want out of a limited pool. The old raider isn't likely to bid
too much for a minor upgrade. Think about it: if the newb guy (A) has
75 DKP, and the old guy (B) has 500 DKP. Another old raider (C) has
425 DKP. Now, B has first shots at any drop that falls (as he would
in any DKP system). However, if A really wants that, then B is going
to have to pay at LEAST 75 DKP for the item. If he knows that really,
really good ugprades are likely to drop elsewhere, then he likely
won't risk paying that, because if he DOES, he's now behind C in
points, and he won't want to risk losing his points lead over a minor
item. And even if person B does take the item, he will be 75 DKP
down. That's a huge chunk. If something good drops next time, person
A may now be sitting at 95 DKP, so if person B wants another piece of
loot he'll drop by 95 next time, and so forth until pretty soon
they're caught up with each other.
I witnessed this Sunday night actually. We got our second round of
Tier 6 gloves from Hyjal. Almost everyone in the raid could use a
pair of these, but the gloves aren't as interesting as the other
pieces or even some non-set gear in BT or Hyjal. As a result, though
most of the bidders had several hundred DKP, the bids were hovering at
about 60-70 DKP per token, because no one wanted to spend more than
that.
Then again, it could be that the item is very, very rare, and despite
it being a minor upgrade the veteran player might (rightfully) want it
regardless. Tsunami Talisman for example. It's a minor upgrade over
Hourglass of the Unraveller, but it virtually NEVER drops (at least
for us). The whole guild has seen it twice in months of SSC runs.
So, if that thing drops, then despite it being a minor upgrade, many
people are going to go all out for it because it's rare enough. I
couldn't possibly see it as fair that a random new person gets
priority on that item simply because his gear is lagging.
Just remember, DKP becomes like cash you use in a bid system, and like
in the real world, people will weight the cost of an item versus it's
benefit, their personal desires, and it's difficulty to obtain. The
person with more money in his pocket won't always be the one to win an
auction ;).
Mike
mbg...@gmail.com
> I was trying to say that the chances for an upgrade for the older player
> does not increase with DKP over a roll based system, because he can still
> only use 2 out of 12 drops, all DKP does is make sure that the new player
> does not get the chance to roll 12/12 times because his DKP account is
> lacking.
I'm not sure what you mean there. In almost any sane DKP system, if
the upgrade drop for those 10 slots that new player needs, he's going
to get them. Virtually NO DKP system will ever deny a player an item
that no one else wants - you just go negative if you can't afford the
item.
So, what DKP does is essentially GIVE those 10 items to the
undergeared player. No one else wants them anyways, so be happy with
them. BUT, if the well geared player needs something in his shoulder
slot for example, he simply doesn't have to worry about the new guy
possibly rolling against him.
PRIME EXAMPLE: I was in Karazhan last week with my hunter (Note: I
don't advocate DKP in Kara, but this is just a good example - imagine
it a 25 man raid). He's pretty well geared except for his melee
weapons - I've actually got one 1H axe from BT (Rising Tide) but I
don't have anything else to pair with it right now so I'm still using
a 2-hander. I've ran Karazhan a ton, and had god luck with most drops,
but not weapons. Lately I've even taken to grinding Consortium rep for
a dagger from them (only 500 more Insignia's to go . . . .). Anyways,
we come in, do Attumen, both those drops get de'd. We then do
Morroes. Emerald Ripper drops. I parade around my chair with glee.
Screw those Consortium guys. I see the light at the end of the
tunnel! I roll. 77. Oops, new rogue to guild wearing blues and
greens rolls too. 85. I let a few swears slip out (though not over
vent - just to myself :)). Now, I'm pretty much done for the instance
unless Romulo, Prince, or Netherspite drop their weapons. None do.
However, the rogue proceeds to pickup a cloak, a Tier 4 headpiece, and
a chestpiece as well. 4 upgrades in total. The latter 3 nobody else
wanted. A roll system allowed him to take the dagger first though. A
DKP system would have insured that a more experienced player
automatically got their 1 item that they needed, while the
inexperienced guy still gets his upgrades from other bosses.
Mike
Catriona R
>PRIME EXAMPLE: I was in Karazhan last week with my hunter (Note: I
>don't advocate DKP in Kara, but this is just a good example - imagine
>it a 25 man raid). He's pretty well geared except for his melee
>weapons - I've actually got one 1H axe from BT (Rising Tide) but I
>don't have anything else to pair with it right now so I'm still using
>a 2-hander. I've ran Karazhan a ton, and had god luck with most drops,
>but not weapons. Lately I've even taken to grinding Consortium rep for
>a dagger from them (only 500 more Insignia's to go . . . .). Anyways,
>we come in, do Attumen, both those drops get de'd. We then do
>Morroes. Emerald Ripper drops. I parade around my chair with glee.
>Screw those Consortium guys. I see the light at the end of the
>tunnel! I roll. 77. Oops, new rogue to guild wearing blues and
>greens rolls too. 85. I let a few swears slip out (though not over
>vent - just to myself :)). Now, I'm pretty much done for the instance
>unless Romulo, Prince, or Netherspite drop their weapons. None do.
>However, the rogue proceeds to pickup a cloak, a Tier 4 headpiece, and
>a chestpiece as well. 4 upgrades in total. The latter 3 nobody else
>wanted. A roll system allowed him to take the dagger first though. A
>DKP system would have insured that a more experienced player
>automatically got their 1 item that they needed, while the
>inexperienced guy still gets his upgrades from other bosses.
Yup, good example. The group I used to run Kara with used a straight
roll system, which mostly worked great, but I had the worst luck ever on
weapons. I was on almost every run, always there right from the start
(we ran that place for 6 months, every week), and had even switched to
my priest as main to help out when wewere short on healers. I lost rolls
on Maiden's mace several times, finally getting it after about 3 months,
fair enough. Now, Prince's mace... it kept on dropping on the few
weekends I had to miss the runs. In those 6 months, I only saw it
once... and rolled a 1. The guy who got it was pretty new in our runs,
nice guy and I don't grudge it to him as it was a large upgrade to him
but argh! Had we had a DKP system I'd have got it; the one item left in
the instance that I needed (I never did get it, my draenei priest still
wears Maiden's mace).
Oh and both that mace and one of the Maiden mace drops were won by
people who subsequently joined few to zero runs (I was particularly
annoyed at the Maiden one; it was won by someone who had the BoE epic
mace which was very little worse, and who then never played that
character again but switched to an alt), while I continued to join
runs... so it would've benefitted the group more as well ;-)
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair (70 Human Rogue)
Naomh (70 Draenei Priest)
Sagart (70 Undead Priest)
Rosad (70 Human Warlock)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter)
Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin)
Buinne (60 Troll Shaman)
Urbin
> Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I was responding to his statement that with a roll based system "a player
> > who is badly equipped on 12 slots" gets 12 chances at an upgrade (assuming a
> > raid where 12 items drop, one for each slot) whereas "a player who is maxed
> > out in 10 slots and needs 2 upgrades" only gets 2 chances at an upgrade.
>
> I think that the problem is a little bit different. You get an upgrade
> when (1) the loot is the item you need and (2) you win that item.
Agreed.
> So, DKPs are useful on (2) more then /roll, IMVHO. Once the (1) happens,
> I think you have to give more chances to older raiders to get the item:
> no pain no gain.. :-)
Also agreed.
> P.S. English is not my main language, so maybe I just don't understand
> well what you wrote, so pay a little patience with me, please! :-)
Your english seems fine (and it is not my native language, either, so maybe
I'm not writing very clearly what I want to say :-)
The point I was trying to make was that for a player only needing 2 pieces,
the chance of (1) occuring is smaller than for a player needing 12 pieces.
And while, with a DKP system, the older player typically has better chances
on (2) against the newer player, depending on the system he may or may not
have certainty to get the item.
But it seems, we all seem to agree and are just nitpicking on an academic
case :-)
Urbin
> On Jul 1, 7:55=A0am, Urbin <ur...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > I was trying to say that the chances for an upgrade for the older player
> > does not increase with DKP over a roll based system, because he can still
> > only use 2 out of 12 drops, all DKP does is make sure that the new player
> > does not get the chance to roll 12/12 times because his DKP account is
> > lacking.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean there.
I guess I was not making myself clear. See my reply to Candido, I think I
get my point across there...
As he wrote: To get an upgrade, two conditions must be met:
(1) the item must drop
(2) you must win the item over other chars interested (based on roll or DKP
system)
The OP was stating that it was unfair in a roll-based system, that a new
player would get 12 chances to an upgrade whereas the old player would only
get 2 chances at an upgrade.
All I was saying, that this was not purely an effect of whether (2) was
based on roll or dkp systems, but mainly because for one player condition
(1) would be met in 12/12 cases and for the other player it would only be
met in 2/12 cases.
The only difference would then be how the 2/12 cases were handled by the
system used for (2).
> In almost any sane DKP system, if the upgrade drop for those 10 slots
> that new player needs, he's going to get them. Virtually NO DKP system
> will ever deny a player an item that no one else wants - you just go
> negative if you can't afford the item.
> So, what DKP does is essentially GIVE those 10 items to the
> undergeared player. No one else wants them anyways, so be happy with
> them.
I didn not consider this, I just assumed if you didn't have the DKP you
wouldn't be able to bid/roll, so some other new player would get it instead
:-) Of course, if there is only one new player, it makes sense to go
negative.
> BUT, if the well geared player needs something in his shoulder slot for
> example, he simply doesn't have to worry about the new guy possibly
> rolling against him.
Of course, that depends on the DKP system being used. If the item goes to
the highest bidder, yes, then the old player has pretty much certainty on
the item. If a weighted roll system is used (say /roll <bid>), the new
player may still win /roll 10 against the older players /roll 4200.
That is why I was saying, that even with using a DKP system, there could be
cases where loot drama may errupt :-)
>
> PRIME EXAMPLE: [snip description of Kara run]
> A roll system allowed him to take the dagger first though. A
> DKP system would have insured that a more experienced player
> automatically got their 1 item that they needed, while the
> inexperienced guy still gets his upgrades from other bosses.
As I keep saying, I am not advocating to use a roll system instead of a DKP
system. I don't. I think for most raiding instances a DKP system can make a
lot of sense (though not being a raider I base this on purely theoretical
grounds).
I was just opposing the statement the OP made, that a DKP system would
"even out" the 12/12 chances against 2/12 chances. That left the impression
they would both get equal chances at an upgrade, where in fact it just
changed the ratio from 12/12 against 2/12 to 10/12 against 2/12 which -
numerically - is not that big a change but for the older player in question
it will of course mean a lot, if (1) happens :-)
Candido
> But it seems, we all seem to agree and are just nitpicking on an academic
> case :-)
"Academic"? I'm still waiting for my T4 gloves... -.-
--
Candido
Hans
>> Suppose someone who has hardly raided and can use the items for
>> all 12 slots, he gets 12 chances.
> [snip]
>> Maybe he only needs items for 2 slots, he gets only 2 rolls, one sixth
>> of the chance of the unprepared.
>
> But that stays the same with DKP. A person who only needs upgrades on 2
> slots because all his other slots are already "maxed out" always has a
> lower
> chance of getting an upgrade as only 2 drops are meaningful to him while
> somebody who has 12 upgradeable slots obviously has better chances to get
> an
> upgrade.
>
> In your example above the better equipped player still only gets 2 rolls
> (because the 10 other drops are not upgrades for him). What it does is
> just
> that it limits the "number of rolls" the under-equipped player can make,
> as
> he won't be able to roll on all 12 possible upgrades, as he won't be able
> to
> afford to, due to a lack of DKP. He may still decide to spend his DKP on
> exactly those two drops that the better equipped player needs, gaining
> that
> player nothing.
I will admit DKP doesn't solve the problem completely, but it does reduce
the
problem.
Note that we also had a rule that a badly equipped player could be
forced to take an item if it was a big upgrade, making it less likely badly
equipped
players could pull this off. A rule specifically meant to deal with the
problem
that a lot of people would like to set aside DKP to get the best item first.
Hans
> I was just opposing the statement the OP made, that a DKP system would
> "even out" the 12/12 chances against 2/12 chances. That left the
> impression
> they would both get equal chances at an upgrade, where in fact it just
> changed the ratio from 12/12 against 2/12 to 10/12 against 2/12 which -
> numerically - is not that big a change but for the older player in
> question
> it will of course mean a lot, if (1) happens :-)
The point I tried to make is to show how unfair a rolling system could be,
more than one might think... Good to remember when considering to
switch to DKP. And indeed DKP doesn't solve it all.
Another point was (last alinea): IF just a few raids are expected and all
players have comparably the same amount of needed slots, introducing
a DKP system might not be that important.
Both points, dealing with the true OP's question (to DKP or not to DKP),
not an all inclusive analysis.
>> Virtually NO DKP system will ever deny a player an item that no one
>> else wants - you just go negative if you can't afford the item.
Btw... A rule I explicitly mentioned. (used item >>> void crystal)
> As I keep saying, I am not advocating to use a roll system instead of a
> DKP
> system. I don't. I think for most raiding instances a DKP system can make
> a
> lot of sense (though not being a raider I base this on purely theoretical
> grounds).
Reading the thread I think everyone essentially agrees that zero-sum DKP
makes things more fair and everyone seems to DKP well enough.
Given such level of knowledge, why no comments about our DKP twist,
spreading the DKP awarded over all the raids of a week (also the wipe
raids)?
Hans
news:d38b7899-0870-46c1...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Hans ha scritto:
>>
>> Suppose someone who has hardly raided and can use the items for
>> all 12 slots, he gets 12 chances.
>> Suppose someone who made his epics and has raided karazhan for
>> a whole, maybe he only needs items for 6 slots, he gets only 6 rolls,
>> half the chance to roll....
>> Suppose someone who raids SSC with the guild for a long time.
>> Maybe he only needs items for 2 slots, he gets only 2 rolls, one sixth
>> of the chance of the unprepared.
>> With rolling, the more you have and did for the guild, the less you get,
>> and not just a little bit.
>>
> WTF?!?
> I cannot understand what u r saying... what's means "the more u du,
> the less u get"?
The OP's question was whether or not to switch to DKP.
While deciding on that, I think it is usefull to remember *how* unfair the
loot situation is for those doing the most.
While DKP doesn't solve everything, DKP, coupled with forced upgrading,
does help those doing more, and that is fair.
I do remember threads where people objected to DKP because it would
be unfair to new players, consider my post sort of an preemptive answer.
Given how the thread develops such an preemptive answer was not
needed.
> If u need 2 piece in a 24-piece run, u roll (or bid) only 2 times...
> or u r saying that because he have raided a lot he have the RIGHT to
> bid/roll also for piece he doesn't need?
> In your example, also using dkp the uber-player would bid only 2
> pieces
I certainly don't want players to roll to get double items or unneeded
sidegrades. I just wanted to show how unfair the loot situation is, to
show how reasonable it is to take measures, so that they have at
least a bit more chance to get an upgrade.
Interestingly, I think zero-sum DKP, in contrast to rolling, will prevent
players rolling on items they don't need. (In the months of waiting
before TBC, we had runs with players of two+ guilds mixed running
MC and BWL and rolling. I have seen well equipped players roll
against truely undergeared players, just because rolling costed nothing)
>> This effect is only important if you expect serious difference in
>> players,
>>
> Even in "great-uber-guild" there is difference between player, only if
> a guild doesn't loose or acquire NEVER new players there is no
> substantial difference between players
>>
>> I guess that is true for your guild.
My point was, that, suppose currently everyone is about as well geared
and, suppose they guess blizzard will be very fast with WoLK and they
will only get a few runs...
In such a situation switching to DKP is not so usefull.
My post was meant to be a reply.
Hans
Majestick
devils advocate for a moment. My little brother was in a large raiding
guild and spent several months building up a reputation just to be let
in, and then to save up enough points to get a should piece he wanted.
So for several months he watched all the veterans and officers collect
the spoils while he patiently waited his turn. After I bitched to him
about it he explained to me that it's just how it works and how it
wouldn't be fair for new people to just loot and gquit. So after
several months of putting in his time, he logs in one day and finds
the guild disbanded...all the time and DKP was for nothing. Now he's
in another guild (for about a month) and he has yet to get those
shoulders.
Hans
> I thought I would throw out my guild's System to see what you think.
> First of all everyone in the raid has a chance to recieve loot, with
> preference going to Main, Alt, Offspec in that order. Each Boss has
> his own "Boss Points" you can accumulate.
> The first time the guild downs a boss you get 3 points, 2 for 2nd and 1
> after that. If you've never downed the boss you get 1pt per wipe.
>
> Once loot is dropped, you /roll (# Boss Points * 10) with the highest
> roll getting the item. So if you have a raider that has tried every
> attempt they will have more of a chance to win an item vs. the noob
> that just showed up, but the noob aloway has a chance.
>
> Since the Boss Points are tied to a specific Boss, you can't rack up
> points on the easy content and spend them on the new boss that
> was just downed.
>
> Curious what everyone's thoughts on this system are.
I looks like a good way to counter the problem of the unfair
loot situation between good and bad equipped players
(see my direct answer to the OP) and reward active players.
It also deals nicely with the wiperaid problem.
Quite good for a rolling system.
However... remains another drawback of rolling versus DKP...
With rolling, it costs nothing to get an item, this might cause
players to roll too often. Admittingly you mention priorities,
guess those could reduce the problem. I admit DKP systems
also need some human reasoning *, still I think that
your system requires a bit more officer ruling.
I think that zero sum DKP with fixed prices and spreading of
DKP over all raids of a week, specifically wipe raids, makes it easier
to ensure that everyone gets proportional to his/her amount of effort.
* like forced upgrades in case of serious underequipped players
so not everyone can save for the same best-item and cause lots of
usefull items to be disenchanted.
Hans
"Majestick" <xuld...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:d0a7ab2f-9848-43fd...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
In DKP systems getting a *specific* top item is indeed hard for new raiders.
(btw... I would not expect shoulders to be such an item unless your
brother played a priest and warriortanks and druidtanks had priority over
him on T5 items and void reaver was the only beaten T5 source)
If he didn't get any item during those months, and it was not just his
stubborness that he only wanted the shoulders, I guess his guild did
not have zero-sum DKP (which ensures the average member has
zero DKP, just like new players).
If a guild awards more DKP per week than is payed every week,
long standing members can indeed build up huge amounts of DKP,
making it hard for new members to get anything.
In my experience new players typically got multiple upgrades on their
first run. Already gotten and therefore unwanted by others? Sure.
But still a new player got quite a lot reward for his effort in the first
runs.
Moosen
<NarkoM...@gmail.com> wrote:
>mbg...@gmail.com ha scritto:
>
>> On Jun 30, 9:53?am, robbo...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> > I think the best way forward is be flexible and rely more on class
>> > leaders and senior members saying "Yes or No".
>>
>> Respectfully, the system you describe ("Loot council") is what I've
>> noticed to be the worst of the worst loot systems, because it pulls in
>> human judgement, and human judgement will *always* entail some level
>> of bias.
>>
>> IMHO, the only fair loot systems are ones with set non-human driven
>> rules. Even rolls work here as, though there is a level of chance, at
>> least it's a non-biased computer that it's being left up to.
>>
>> Now, with that said, IMHO, DKP is a very easy way to go, and works
>> great. Players who do more receive more - as simple as that.
>
>You are right, but the problem is that with a bid system you too put
>human judgement in... i.e. think about a drop that can upgrade abit
>the equip of a old-regular-always-on raider and can change totally the
>gear of a demi-regular raider (i.e. a raider that work turnation)...
>if you use bidding dkp system, the demi-regular has no possibility to
>take the piece he need to improve himself because he will be
>overbidded by old-regular-raider (his only chance is the old-raider
>humanity, and i DON'T trust in humanity when we talk about violet-
>pixel)
Well, for starters, if it's just a minor upgrade for the 'old regular
always on raider', they probably won't be interested. They don't save
up large amounts of dkp by tossing it away on minor, inconsequential
upgrades. So the raider with less dkp for whom it IS a large upgrade,
is quite likely to get it. If the guild and its members are reasonable
people and discussion takes place about for whom it would be a larger
upgrade (which good, friendly, well-led guilds do), that is probably
what would happen. We use EQDKP, and there's always lots of
communication between players and leaders to ensure stuff goes where
it can best be used, to gear folks up and not have to shard anything
if we can help it. It's a pretty good system.
And if it is enough of an upgrade for the old regular raider to go for
it, then that's their right, and it will probably drop again later for
the other player, anyway. If the part-time raider doesn't get it the
first time, there's always next week- it ain't the end of the world if
you don't get it now.
Moosen
wrote:
Emphatically can't agree enough, on this. It's happened to me twice
now. I don't even want to talk about how it makes you feel, or it will
piss me off all over again.
Moosen
>
>This is not an argument to say the new player should get the new piece or
>that DKP sucks. All I wanted to point out, that even with a DKP system,
>there will always be the chance for situations where loot drama may occur.
Yes, loot drama can occur with the dkp system... the difference is,
with dkp, there is a logical way to deal with it that is in place and
defacto agreed to by all raiders. If you don't agree to dkp as the
means to resolve who gets an item, then you won't be raiding with that
guild. Without dkp, there is no really fair way to distribute loot,
unless you have a raid full of true humanitarians who all put the good
of the raid over their own personal desires.
John Gordon
> If the guild and its members are reasonable people and discussion
> takes place about for whom it would be a larger upgrade (which good,
> friendly, well-led guilds do)
Sounds like your guild actually uses loot council, disguised as DKP.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
ald
Shugar) wrote:
>(though fortunately if it happens in my guild, it's quiet enough that
>I don't hear about it and have to put up with the whining. ; )
>
>Ashen Shugar
Basically because it doesn't, or at least I've never heard about it,
either. Ah, the joys of a casual guild ;-)
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com
robb...@googlemail.com
the answer would be :
For a consistent raiding guild above kara level - probably yes, using
a zero sum system.
For a casual raiding guild on a low population server with a lot of
potential loot whore guild jumping - hmmmm possibly but there does
need to be some "The Raid leader is God and his Class Leaders his
disciples" when it comes to possible upgrades for longer serving
members as opposed to raid noobs.
For 10 man content - nah.
So on that basis - can anyone suggest a good web based zero sum system
for me to have a look at and play with ? and does it auto update? or
is there a lot of manual work required ?
Also, im a bit of a numpty with the term zero sum... can someone
explain it again...in simple terms....possibly using apples ?
KKTY :)
mbg...@gmail.com
> So on that basis - can anyone suggest a good web based zero sum system
> for me to have a look at and play with ? and does it auto update? or
> is there a lot of manual work required ?
>
> Also, im a bit of a numpty with the term zero sum... can someone
> explain it again...in simple terms....possibly using apples ?
Well I'm not a big fan of zero-sum myself, but since you asked, NDKP
is a very commonly used zero-sum web-based system.
http://www.nurfedui.net/ndkp.php
Hasn't been updated in quite a while though.
Mike
John Gordon
> Also, im a bit of a numpty with the term zero sum... can someone
> explain it again...in simple terms....possibly using apples ?
Zero-sum means that for every point of DKP earned, a point is spent. If
you were to subtract expenditures from earnings you'd always get zero,
hence the name.
To give an example, a raid kills a boss and he drops three items. Those
three items are worth forty DKP combined. Each person earns 1.6 DKP
(40/25), and three people pay DKP for the items. 40 DKP earned, 40 DKP
spent.
Personally, I don't like zero-sum. It forces you to come up with a list
of fixed DKP values for every possible item which is a headache in and of
itself, it's difficult to award DKP for anything other than actually
killing bosses, and it doesn't solve the problem it was intended to solve
(DKP hoarding).
mbg...@gmail.com
> Personally, I don't like zero-sum. It forces you to come up with a list
> of fixed DKP values for every possible item which is a headache in and of
> itself, it's difficult to award DKP for anything other than actually
> killing bosses, and it doesn't solve the problem it was intended to solve
> (DKP hoarding).
All gripes that I have myself. In general, I far, far prefer bid DKP
systems to fixed cost systems like zero-sum.
Mike
robb...@googlemail.com
raids let alone manage every mofo's dkp lists.
So do we just set a simple system of say
Award
attend raid = 5
boss kill = 10
complete raid = 5
Cost
tier token = bid
epic item = bid
or similar ?
Shammy
You wrote on Fri, 4 Jul 2008 03:46:23 -0700 (PDT):
r> I must admit i have enough headaches trying to organise, arrange,
r> lead raids let alone manage every mofo's dkp lists.
r> So do we just set a simple system of say
r> Award attend raid = 5 boss kill = 10 complete raid = 5
r> Cost tier token = bid epic item = bid
r> or similar ?
We used to have bids but I didnt like it tbh. The best way we had at least
for me was fixed prices and the person with highest dkp took it. Fast and
simple. You link the item, 3 ppl say need and the person with most dkp gets
it at a fixed price, and no you dont have to set prices for evey single
item, say t4 tokens = 20 dkp, non set epics 15 dkp...
The bids were wierd at times and not rly fair.
Or you get person A bid 100 person B bid 101 person A bit 120 person B bid
121 etc
Or other times something really rare drops and 2 of you have 2000 dkp but
you have 50 dkp more, you need to spend 1 - 2 months of dkp to get it but if
person B was not in raid that day you would spend maybe 50 dkp for the same
item.
mbg...@gmail.com
> The bids were wierd at times and not rly fair.
> Or you get person A bid 100 person B bid 101 person A bit 120 person B bid
> 121 etc
> Or other times something really rare drops and 2 of you have 2000 dkp but
> you have 50 dkp more, you need to spend 1 - 2 months of dkp to get it but if
> person B was not in raid that day you would spend maybe 50 dkp for the same
> item.
The problem with that system though is that it only whittles away at
someone's DKP very slowly when they take an item. As a result, most
people who come into a guild say, 3 months after it's been running,
even if they then run for 6 months worth of raids, will never catch up
with the DKP leaders, and will never have dibs on anything nice that
drops. The bid system DOES sometimes force people to pay a LOT for a
certain item, but then again, it's a bid system: you only pay that if
you wish to use up that amount of points. The end result though is
that it takes a lot of points out of the system when nice things drop,
ensuring that the people who consistently get coveted upgrades get hit
hard, and people who take minor/unwanted upgrades loose a minimal
amount of points, ensuring that they will eventually have a chance at
a really nice upgrade (which is going to plummet their points too)
eventually.
Mike