Sportsmanship in WC2 mulitplayer

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Craig Bertolucci

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Jul 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/7/96
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I would like to know what the general feeling in whe WC2 community
is on this topic. A few times now I have entered into a multi-player game
(4 man tvb) where 2 of the players are an experienced team playing a map
they both know very well. This is all well and good, but they take on,
usually, 2 players who don't know each other and havn't worked out a
coordinated strategy ahead of time. After losing I reenter the game
(foolishly) same PUD against the same team but with a new partner. I get
crushed again and the other guys usually have the nerve to brag about how
good they are. This wouldn't bother me except that they don't offer to
tell people in the chat screen that they are an experienced team.
Yes, I know, I don't have to play with them. Yes, I know, good
players coordinate during the game. Yes, I know, the "You Suck" and
"Quit Whinning" notes are commin' my way. Still, I think 2 players who
have a coordinated strategy worked out ahead of time have a much better
chance than a pair of equally good players going in cold. So, I might not
play against them if I KNEW ahead of time that they were a team, instead
of wasting 30 min of my life in a hopeless game.
I think team work is great and I'm really impressed at how
effective it can be. Still, it's a waste of my time to get caught up in a
game like that. They should offer some warning in the chat screen.

'till I get my bloody revenge!

Giarc


Luke Chao

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Jul 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/8/96
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Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
<snip>
Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
the fun?
--
*************************************-Luke Chao :-)******************
* E-mail : luke...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca *
* WWW: http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ab470/ *

rob...@ix.netcom.com

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Jul 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/8/96
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ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Luke Chao) wrote:

You have GOT to be kidding.


Message has been deleted

William Chang

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Jul 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/8/96
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people don't play to lose.

> rob...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article
<4rrqum$6...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>...

Cynthia Kay Hahn

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Jul 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/9/96
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In <Pine.GSO.3.92.960707111437.100A-100000@chuma> Craig Bertolucci
find a partner like they do, join a league! stop whining, expierence
helps! probably smurfs...

Presto

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Jul 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/10/96
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=>><snip>
=>>Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
=>>the fun?

=>You have GOT to be kidding.

Actually, it's kind of an opinion. To me, it's more like for the fun
because multi-player is kind of like a privaledge to me. Although this
is true it doesn't mean you shouln't try to play till your maximum
capabilities.
--

///////////////////////////////////////////////
//// And now, Back to the show //// By, Presto
///////////////////////////////////////////////

Dan Zerkle

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Jul 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/10/96
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Luke Chao (ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca) wrote:
: Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
: the fun?

Actually, I prefer to lose. Mind you, I always try *very hard* to
win. However, if I lose, it means that I played someone better than
me. I can learn those tricks and use them in my next game, so that
I can make someone else lose.

For instance, a few days ago I played on High Seas, and the enemy
team put platforms on the oil patches near my town. I had to shoot
them down before I could do anything. Well, last night, I played
on Spiral, and I put platforms on *all* the patches but my teammate's,
and built them back when they were destroyed. One enemy only got
about 4000 oil, and the other never got any. I completely ruled
the seas in that game, and all because I saw someone else use this
trick on me (my enemies should have used decay and catapults on
the platforms, but never did).

Quite frequently, I'll play against someone who is obviously a
beginner. I like to take the time to teach some tricks and
techniques to these folks after it's clear that I'm squishing
them. That can make for more interesting games, later, when
they have a shot at beating me. I particularly like showing
newbies how to run a 7-man grunt rush. That maneuver is scary
even from a beginner.

Of course, this doesn't always apply. I was playing someone
on Kali last night who went by BuRgErKiNg or something like that.
This guy cussed me out continually in the chat room. He kept
trash talking me during the game, and threatening to kill me.
I really enjoyed killing him, and was delighted that I had such
a good teammate to help.... I would have been disappointed to
lose that one.

--
Dan Zerkle zer...@cs.ucdavis.edu
GCS d(---)(!) p- c++ !l u++ e++(+++) m s++/-- !n h+(--) f g+++(-) w+ t+ r(-) y+
You call some place "Paradise" -- Kiss it goodbye.

Erick Baker

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Jul 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/11/96
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On Jul 08, 1996 20:27:29 in article <Re: Sportsmanship in WC2 mulitplayer>,

'rob...@ix.netcom.com' wrote:


>ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Luke Chao) wrote:
>
>>Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
>><snip>
>>Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for

>>the fun?
>>--
>>*************************************-Luke Chao :-)******************
>>* E-mail : luke...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca *
>>* WWW: http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ab470/ *
>You have GOT to be kidding.
>

It's not very fun when you've just built an ogre mound and 18 bloodlusted
ogres rush your city.
--

Erick Baker "Nintendo Guru"
erick...@usa.pipeline.com

Brian Ellenberger

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Jul 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/11/96
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On 10 Jul 1996, Dan Zerkle wrote:

> Of course, this doesn't always apply. I was playing someone
> on Kali last night who went by BuRgErKiNg or something like that.
> This guy cussed me out continually in the chat room. He kept
> trash talking me during the game, and threatening to kill me.
> I really enjoyed killing him, and was delighted that I had such
> a good teammate to help.... I would have been disappointed to
> lose that one.

There are some big assholes out there. The other day I whipped up on a
FFA. Just as I was finishing up, he quits to chat, says something like
haha you really didn't win and then kicks me out. Had to be some little
13-year old punk.

Lawrence Liang

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Jul 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/11/96
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: >Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
: ><snip>
: >Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
: >the fun?

: You have GOT to be kidding.

He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are
you getting paid for your WC2 success? No...wait, the fame and prestige
from being a great WC2 player has hordes of beautiful women knocking down
your door, and has your phone ringing with movie contracts. Oh, I get
it, the skills you learn from WC2 make you work harder and more
productively? Or maybe the exercise your wrist gets from moving your mouse
around outweighs any benefits of real exercise.

Sorry...this post turned out a little harsher than I originally intended
but as an IWLer who has gotten really tired pointmongering taken to an
extreme, I've lost a little tolerence when I think someone has lost sight
of what video games are for. Fun.

<putting on my flame retarding clothing>
Larry Liang
Vermeer on Kali


Luke!

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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erick...@usa.pipeline.com(Erick Baker) wrote:

>On Jul 08, 1996 20:27:29 in article <Re: Sportsmanship in WC2 mulitplayer>,

>'rob...@ix.netcom.com' wrote:
>
>
>>ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Luke Chao) wrote:
>>
>>>Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
>
>>>the fun?

>>>--
>>>*************************************-Luke Chao :-)******************
>>>* E-mail : luke...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca *
>>>* WWW: http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ab470/ *

>>You have GOT to be kidding.
>>
>

>It's not very fun when you've just built an ogre mound and 18 bloodlusted
>ogres rush your city.
>--
>
>Erick Baker "Nintendo Guru"
>erick...@usa.pipeline.com


build more peons, then you will have that joy!


Luke!

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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zer...@krakatoa.cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) wrote:

>Luke Chao (ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca) wrote:
>: Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
>: the fun?
i like to go on central and just screw all around with all zeps or all
dragons or all something....sometimes, even though i don't build quick
(because i don't feel like) i win......that's scary, one time I was
able to amass 70+ dragons, when i attacked, there was no hope! first
tiem i ever won a 5 player ffa in one fell swoop ====just one more
reason for a quick attack and recon


Luke!

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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l...@umich.edu (Lawrence Liang) wrote:

>: >Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
>: ><snip>

>: >Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
>: >the fun?

>: You have GOT to be kidding.

Luke!

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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l...@umich.edu (Lawrence Liang) wrote:

true, read his story on shlonglor's page, it called something like
"it's just a game"


Pits

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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>
> >He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are
> >you getting paid for your WC2 success? No...wait, the fame and prestige
> >from being a great WC2 player has hordes of beautiful women knocking down
> >your door, and has your phone ringing with movie contracts. Oh, I get
> >it, the skills you learn from WC2 make you work harder and more
> >productively? Or maybe the exercise your wrist gets from moving your mouse
> >around outweighs any benefits of real exercise.
>
> >Sorry...this post turned out a little harsher than I originally intended
> >but as an IWLer who has gotten really tired pointmongering taken to an
> >extreme, I've lost a little tolerence when I think someone has lost sight
> >of what video games are for. Fun.


I could not agree with a pos more.

PITS

rob...@ix.netcom.com

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Jul 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/12/96
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l...@umich.edu (Lawrence Liang) wrote:

>: >Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
>: ><snip>
>: >Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
>: >the fun?

>: You have GOT to be kidding.

>He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are

><putting on my flame retarding clothing>


>Larry Liang
>Vermeer on Kali

Sir allow me to ask you a question. Do you enjoy loosing more than
winning?
I don’t think that I have lost sight of what computer games are
supposed to be about (FUN).
But let me tell you that as a relatively new War2 player I don’t
particularly enjoy getting my clock cleaned every time that I play, I
find loosing very frustrating. I am a very competitive person and
strive to improve my skills continually in everything that I do,
including recreational activities. That said, the only true measure of
that improvement ( at least for me ) in war2 is wins vs. losses. I do
not enjoy investing one or two hours of my time only to loose time
after time. And I do get a hell of a rush when I win, as I feel that I
have improved. Bet I'm not alone here.
And you don’t need flame retarding clothing, as I feel we all have a
right to express our opinions.
It’s just too bad that some people can’t seem to express a negative
opinion without turning it into something personal.


tr...@mcs.net

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
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l...@umich.edu (Lawrence Liang) wrote:

>: >Craig Bertolucci (bert...@chuma.cas.usf.edu) wrote:
>: ><snip>
>: >Does it really matter whether you win or lose? Aren't you just in it for
>: >the fun?

>: You have GOT to be kidding.

>He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are
>you getting paid for your WC2 success? No...wait, the fame and prestige
>from being a great WC2 player has hordes of beautiful women knocking down
>your door, and has your phone ringing with movie contracts. Oh, I get
>it, the skills you learn from WC2 make you work harder and more
>productively? Or maybe the exercise your wrist gets from moving your mouse
>around outweighs any benefits of real exercise.

>Sorry...this post turned out a little harsher than I originally intended
>but as an IWLer who has gotten really tired pointmongering taken to an
>extreme, I've lost a little tolerence when I think someone has lost sight
>of what video games are for. Fun.

><putting on my flame retarding clothing>
>Larry Liang
>Vermeer on Kali

Wow, Vermeer, I am so impressed with your post. I play on Kali all
the time, and I have gotten to know some very good players, as well as
really cool people. Plus, I love warcraft. I play in IWL, and was
recently challenged by one of the best players in the League. I am an
okay player, but not great, and I am pretty new to IWL. I was pretty
intimidated to be challenged by someone who I KNEW could kick my ass
all over town, but the challenge is part of the fun.

Here's what happened: this guy spent the entire game telling me that
I suck. I started to feel pretty miserable about half way through the
game. I can talk shit with all you guys, and it doesn't bother me,
but this guy was so MEAN, I really felt like crap.

So, I beat his ass (not bragging, I think he let me win to be a
prick), but I'll tell you something - that win, which earned me like
95 points or something, was the shittiest game I ever played. I would
have had more fun if I had fallen into a vat of dogshit.

The next game I played was with Lord Schroeder, a really nice guy,
whom I usually beat, but he keeps challenging me anyway. Well, he won
this time, but (and this is my whole point here, so pay attention) I
had MORE fun losing to a really cool person than I had beating one of
the best players out there.

So, I think you're right, Vermeer, the game is for fun, and those who
forget that should not play (with me, anyway, find each other and play
with yourselves).

Aris on Kali
Tracy in the rest of the world


Luke!

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
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tracy@mcs

>Wow, Vermeer, I am so impressed with your post. I play on Kali all
>the time, and I have gotten to know some very good players, as well as
>really cool people. Plus, I love warcraft. I play in IWL, and was
>recently challenged by one of the best players in the League. I am an
>okay player, but not great, and I am pretty new to IWL. I was pretty
>intimidated to be challenged by someone who I KNEW could kick my ass
>all over town, but the challenge is part of the fun.

>Here's what happened: this guy spent the entire game telling me that
>I suck. I started to feel pretty miserable about half way through the
>game. I can talk shit with all you guys, and it doesn't bother me,
>but this guy was so MEAN, I really felt like crap.

>So, I beat his ass (not bragging, I think he let me win to be a
>prick), but I'll tell you something - that win, which earned me like
>95 points or something, was the shittiest game I ever played. I would
>have had more fun if I had fallen into a vat of dogshit.


who was that?? if it is who i think it is, well, i just wanna know


Chaos

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
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> There are some big assholes out there. The other day I whipped up on a
> FFA. Just as I was finishing up, he quits to chat, says something like
> haha you really didn't win and then kicks me out. Had to be some little
> 13-year old punk.

Couldn't agree more. Scum and shit lurk out there waiting to click
"return to chatroom: once something goes the wrong way. These bloody
losers should go get a life.

Hope you're not one of those low-life geeks. :)

-chaos

Brian Bauer

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
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>The next game I played was with Lord Schroeder, a really nice guy,
>whom I usually beat, but he keeps challenging me anyway. Well, he won
>this time, but (and this is my whole point here, so pay attention) I
>had MORE fun losing to a really cool person than I had beating one of
>the best players out there.
>
>So, I think you're right, Vermeer, the game is for fun, and those who
>forget that should not play (with me, anyway, find each other and play
>with yourselves).
>
>Aris on Kali
>Tracy in the rest of the world
>


I agree in this point. I am not on Kali, becuase my connection isn't
the one needed to play on that. I have two people I mainly play with,
one is good and I rarely beat him, and the other one is very bad, but
learning. I have more fun losing to the better player, than beating
the weaker player. It isn't the winning or losing that makes it fun,
but how it happens. If cities are demolished during the course of
the game and new tricks are seen and learned or new stunts
are pulled off that confuse the opponent, then you have fun. If you
just go around slaughtering people and there is no challenge,
then Warcraft loses its funness. People out there need to remember
that this IS just a game, and to have fun with it. I certainly do,
and so do all of my friends. From what I've heard, some people on
Kali, just slaughter people so they can say they are the best, but
that isn't the point of Warcraft. The point is to have fun.

Let's make sure people remember that.

Just my 2 cents
Eykir.

Lawrence Liang

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
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rob...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

: Sir allow me to ask you a question. Do you enjoy loosing more than


: winning?
: I don’t think that I have lost sight of what computer games are
: supposed to be about (FUN).
: But let me tell you that as a relatively new War2 player I don’t
: particularly enjoy getting my clock cleaned every time that I play, I
: find loosing very frustrating. I am a very competitive person and
: strive to improve my skills continually in everything that I do,
: including recreational activities. That said, the only true measure of
: that improvement ( at least for me ) in war2 is wins vs. losses. I do
: not enjoy investing one or two hours of my time only to loose time
: after time. And I do get a hell of a rush when I win, as I feel that I
: have improved. Bet I'm not alone here.
: And you don’t need flame retarding clothing, as I feel we all have a
: right to express our opinions.
: It’s just too bad that some people can’t seem to express a negative
: opinion without turning it into something personal.

No, I generally do not enjoy losing more than winning. But that does not
mean I do not have fun when I lose. Since we are on the warcraft 2
subject, lets stick with it. You have said you are a relatively new War2
player, so you many not be familiar with the profileration of leagues
that has taken place. Perhaps the best known of these is the IWL. Its a
place where people play each other and get points based on their
success. Anyways....because of the single-minded, pointmongering will to
win, a disturbingly large proportion of league games are no fun at all.
Just to be able to post wins, people will specialize in one obscure map
and will only play that map. Things like nowhere to run on high, x marks
the spot, gold mines and a bunch of other maps with very limited
potential are played over and over again, just so some people can have a
silly number on a web page that is higher than other people's. For
anyone who wonders why I bother posting wins and such, its because some
people have a retarded notion in their heads that I'm better than I
really am, so I never get challenged and get to play boards of my
choosing. The only way around that I can see, is post whatever wins I do
get from my limited league play in hopes I will accumulate enough to make
me an attractive target.

Getting back to the fun issue. I have INFINITELY more fun losing a well
played even game than winning a game on a stupid map, or against people I
don't like.

I have no problems with being competitive, and am myself a very
competitive person. Nor do I have problems with trying to perfect your
skills at something you enjoy, in this case Warcraft 2. What I do take
exception to is the respose of "You've GOT to be kidding" to someone who
mentions there's more to the game then winning and losing, as if winning
is the end all, be all of games. There is a saying floating around that
says, "The only people who say winning isn't everything have never won
anything." And to a certain extent that is true. In order to become the
very best at something, you do need to have that kind of killer
instinct. But having that doesn't mean that any loss is a "waste of one
or two hours." Heck, if you are in a game that lasts that long, most
likely it was one that was extraordinarily close.

Like I said before, my previous post got a little too harsh, and was not
meant to be a personal attack. Heck...i don't even know you. :) My
deepest apologize to anyone I may have offended.

Wow...my first post is too harsh and now this one rambles endlessly.
When will I ever learn? :)

-Larry Liang
Vermeer on Kali

Lawrence Liang

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Jul 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/13/96
to

tr...@mcs.net wrote:

: Here's what happened: this guy spent the entire game telling me that


: I suck. I started to feel pretty miserable about half way through the
: game. I can talk shit with all you guys, and it doesn't bother me,
: but this guy was so MEAN, I really felt like crap.

Good for you on beating him. But out of curiosity, who was this guy? I
don't think its all that bad to let everyone know when there is a jerk in
our midst. Heck, if someone thinks I'm an ass, I'd like to know about
it, so I can either defend myself, tell them they are full of it, or
whatever.

Mark Baker

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Jul 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/14/96
to

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:45:56 GMT, tr...@mcs.net wrote:


>>He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are
>>you getting paid for your WC2 success? No...wait, the fame and prestige
>>from being a great WC2 player has hordes of beautiful women knocking down
>>your door, and has your phone ringing with movie contracts. Oh, I get
>>it, the skills you learn from WC2 make you work harder and more
>>productively? Or maybe the exercise your wrist gets from moving your mouse
>>around outweighs any benefits of real exercise.
>
>>Sorry...this post turned out a little harsher than I originally intended
>>but as an IWLer who has gotten really tired pointmongering taken to an
>>extreme, I've lost a little tolerence when I think someone has lost sight
>>of what video games are for. Fun.
>
>><putting on my flame retarding clothing>
>>Larry Liang
>>Vermeer on Kali
>

>Wow, Vermeer, I am so impressed with your post. I play on Kali all
>the time, and I have gotten to know some very good players, as well as
>really cool people. Plus, I love warcraft. I play in IWL, and was
>recently challenged by one of the best players in the League. I am an
>okay player, but not great, and I am pretty new to IWL. I was pretty
>intimidated to be challenged by someone who I KNEW could kick my ass
>all over town, but the challenge is part of the fun.
>

>Here's what happened: this guy spent the entire game telling me that
>I suck. I started to feel pretty miserable about half way through the
>game. I can talk shit with all you guys, and it doesn't bother me,
>but this guy was so MEAN, I really felt like crap.
>

>So, I beat his ass (not bragging, I think he let me win to be a
>prick), but I'll tell you something - that win, which earned me like
>95 points or something, was the shittiest game I ever played. I would
>have had more fun if I had fallen into a vat of dogshit.
>
>The next game I played was with Lord Schroeder, a really nice guy,
>whom I usually beat, but he keeps challenging me anyway. Well, he won
>this time, but (and this is my whole point here, so pay attention) I
>had MORE fun losing to a really cool person than I had beating one of
>the best players out there.
>
>So, I think you're right, Vermeer, the game is for fun, and those who
>forget that should not play (with me, anyway, find each other and play
>with yourselves).
>
>Aris on Kali
>Tracy in the rest of the world
>

It's nice to know there are some good players out there who get
annoyed at some of the other good players arrogance and downright
rudeness. I started playing online a few weeks ago, yes as a
clueless newbie, and was a bit surprised at how rude some people can
be. As a newbie I sure do make a lot of mistakes. Still do and
still will in the future. It amazes me how rude some of the
regulars are to newbies who make mistakes. Wasn't EVERYONE who
started playing multiplayer WC2 a newbie at one time?

Just because someone is new and they are trying to learn to play well
is no reason to call them morons and other less polite names. If
nothing else, that "moron" may just get good enough to routinely kick
the asses of the obnoxious player that feels a need to insult them.

I also like to win but I try to keep it all in perspective. It is
just a GAME and I play primarily to have fun. I wish I could somehow
only play with players who are good, have manners, and don't mind
showing newbies the ropes!

David Huang

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Jul 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/14/96
to

One does not loose as long as he learn. If he does, he
still come out as winner. The true worthy of intangible
is beyond measurement. One may gains much more
from loosing as long as he understood why. Like so many
lessons we take from life, the harder they come, the greater
we treasure them. For others, it's the easy come and easy go.
Hence, winning is no differ from loosing and loosing is
not differ from winning.

Kevin Igoe

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Jul 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM7/15/96
to


> He's kidding? Really? Tell me something...what are you in it for? Are

> you getting paid for your WC2 success? No...wait, the fame and prestige

> from being a great WC2 player has hordes of beautiful women knocking
down
> your door, and has your phone ringing with movie contracts. Oh, I get
> it, the skills you learn from WC2 make you work harder and more
> productively? Or maybe the exercise your wrist gets from moving your
mouse
> around outweighs any benefits of real exercise.
>
> Sorry...this post turned out a little harsher than I originally intended
> but as an IWLer who has gotten really tired pointmongering taken to an
> extreme, I've lost a little tolerence when I think someone has lost
sight
> of what video games are for. Fun.
>
> <putting on my flame retarding clothing>
> Larry Liang
> Vermeer on Kali

I absoloutely agree with you. I think Warcraft II is a blast, win or
lose. I can tell you though, losing to jerks who say they are so awesome
everytime they win, now THAT'S not fun. Also, when repeatedly being
terribly beaten, beyond the point of any hope of even making a dent in
your opponent's army, is also pretty annoying. But this almost NEVER
happens to me, so War2 has been very fun since I got Kali.

Flame me all you want, but I think this guy knows where it's at.

Kevin


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