Has the videogame market finally stopped growing?
Leon Dexter
thinking...
Apparently, the PS2 is selling very slightly better to date than the PS1
did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of time. Or
800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a total of
somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported 60 million
shipped worldwide).
Meanwhile, the Gamecube and Xbox combined have sold approximately what the
N64 did in that time, give or take a bit (actually, it's higher, but not
much). That is, the Gamecube should hit 10 million any second now, and the
Xbox about 30 seconds after that. (9.6 million and 9.4 million,
respectively, at last count).
That got me wondering...has the videogame market stopped growing? If you
project these numbers out, the current generation of consoles should surpass
the last one in sales numbers, but not by very much--and that's with 3
viable consoles on the market, not 2.
I wonder about the software side of the market, though. All three hardware
makers have boasted at one time or another about their high tie-in ratios.
What do you all think? Has the videogame market fully "matured" and stopped
growing? If so, why? And is it good or bad, or does it not matter?
I'll post my thoughts later on, I'd like to hear some other views...
Asianflow
at least knows somebody else that does. Video Games are mainstream as it
gets, and I don't think there's any more potential customers since there are
games out there for all different age groups, and the variety of games is
staggering.
Joe Ottoson
news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> There have been some numbers floating around again lately, and they
> got me thinking...
>
> Apparently, the PS2 is selling very slightly better to date than the
> PS1 did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of
> time. Or 800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a
> total of somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported
> 60 million shipped worldwide).
>
> Meanwhile, the Gamecube and Xbox combined have sold approximately what
> the N64 did in that time, give or take a bit (actually, it's higher,
> but not much). That is, the Gamecube should hit 10 million any
> second now, and the Xbox about 30 seconds after that. (9.6 million
> and 9.4 million, respectively, at last count).
>
> That got me wondering...has the videogame market stopped growing? If
> you project these numbers out, the current generation of consoles
> should surpass the last one in sales numbers, but not by very
> much--and that's with 3 viable consoles on the market, not 2.
>
Part of the problem is that there's really only one viable console. Two
are on life support.
Leon Dexter
> > That got me wondering...has the videogame market stopped growing? If
> > you project these numbers out, the current generation of consoles
> > should surpass the last one in sales numbers, but not by very
> > much--and that's with 3 viable consoles on the market, not 2.
> >
> Part of the problem is that there's really only one viable console. Two
> are on life support.
Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to. I
mean, individual titles of GC and Xbox games routinely outsell such things
as books, CDs, movies, individual models of TVs, VCRs, DVD players, and all
sorts of other entertainment-related products. And all of those products
have a potential buyer pool of pretty much the entire population.
So I'd say the GC and Xbox are pretty healthy consoles. Nintendo is making
money from the GC, and though Microsoft might not have recouped its
investment in Xbox yet, plenty of publishers are making money from the Xbox
market. They're both very much off of life support and doing fine.
Aaron R. Schnuth
> "Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
> are on life support.
I think the biggest problem is the lack of innovation these days in
games. Everything is just the same old, same old with another number stuck
on the end.
Aaron
Alexander Mendes
"Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There have been some numbers floating around again lately, and they got me
> thinking...
>
> Apparently, the PS2 is selling very slightly better to date than the PS1
> did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of time. Or
> 800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a total of
> somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported 60 million
> shipped worldwide).
>
> Meanwhile, the Gamecube and Xbox combined have sold approximately what the
> N64 did in that time, give or take a bit (actually, it's higher, but not
> much). That is, the Gamecube should hit 10 million any second now, and the
> Xbox about 30 seconds after that. (9.6 million and 9.4 million,
> respectively, at last count).
Dreamcast, saturn, PCs, and the various portables should be in this
list, as they're clearly part of the market. Without that, you really
don't have complete data.
> That got me wondering...has the videogame market stopped growing? If you
> project these numbers out, the current generation of consoles should surpass
> the last one in sales numbers, but not by very much--and that's with 3
> viable consoles on the market, not 2.
Can Xbox be considered viable? It's being supported by MS' other
divisions...
> I wonder about the software side of the market, though. All three hardware
> makers have boasted at one time or another about their high tie-in ratios.
>
> What do you all think? Has the videogame market fully "matured" and stopped
> growing? If so, why? And is it good or bad, or does it not matter?
>
> I'll post my thoughts later on, I'd like to hear some other views...
Clearly, peopel who expect explosive growth will be dissapointed.
Japan, the US, and europe are all in the middle of rough economic times,
so people will cut back on stuff like video games. Bt again, we don't
have enough info here to come up with an overall picture of what's
happening in the market.
Steven Hurdle
> Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to.
You need to have 10 million customers plus momentum on your side. The
Dreamcast hit 10 million but lost momentum. That said, I do think the GCN
market is large enough to support Nintendo's first-party ambitions and the
Xbox market has proven itself fertile ground for both first and third-party
developers.
> So I'd say the GC and Xbox are pretty healthy consoles. Nintendo is
making
> money from the GC,
I don't think that's been conclusively demonstrated when one looks at the
total costs (from inception to present, including R&D and marketing).
However, if Nintendo's not making money it's probably not losing much.
> and though Microsoft might not have recouped its
> investment in Xbox yet, plenty of publishers are making money from the
Xbox
> market. They're both very much off of life support and doing fine.
I think the third-party market is on life support on the GCN, due to the
strength of first-party software on that system. A disproportionately large
number of GCN owners, compared to Xbox and PS2 owners, are self-avowed
Nintendo first-party fans, sometimes largely to the exclusion of
non-first-party games. Look at how traditional sports have sold so poorly
on the GCN (Sega Sports completely left the GCN, EA Sports reduced support
such as not releasing MVP Baseball on that platform). Though Acclaim and
Eidos partly have themselves to blame for their GCN sales (being slow with
GCN ports for example), it's still not a good thing when publishers leave a
system. Revile Acclaim as a crappy publisher all you want, it's not going
to be a feather in the GCN's cap if Burnout 3 comes out only on the Xbox and
PS2, for example.
Beck
"Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Its the Summer lull maybe? Run up to Christmas will see heaps of consoles
sold.
CrazyFool
longer to achieve that. If the Xbox 2 proves not to be a total flop then the
market should get bigger and bigger and that can open up more cool ass tech
jobs for people
"Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
El Guapo
news:nKB7b.124069$la.27...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> "Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> > Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to.
>
> You need to have 10 million customers plus momentum on your side. The
> Dreamcast hit 10 million but lost momentum.
Momentum had been lost long before that, considering that the Dreamcast was
on clearance when it finally hit 10 million. The Dreamcast never hit the
numbers that the Gamecube and XBox have while it was still a viable console.
Robert P Holley
Just like your desire to eventually kiss a female, cross your fingers *real*
tight and keep praying for that statement and perhaps one day it will become
true.
Robert P Holley
news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> There have been some numbers floating around again lately, and they got me
> thinking...
>
> Apparently, the PS2 is selling very slightly better to date than the PS1
> did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of time.
Or
> 800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a total of
> somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported 60 million
> shipped worldwide).
>
> Meanwhile, the Gamecube and Xbox combined have sold approximately what the
> N64 did in that time, give or take a bit (actually, it's higher, but not
> much). That is, the Gamecube should hit 10 million any second now, and
the
> Xbox about 30 seconds after that. (9.6 million and 9.4 million,
> respectively, at last count).
Great post as it does raise a lot of question, but on the flip side I don't
think the N64 sold 20 million units in it's first two years.
Dreams5
"Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The first videogame downfall came with Atari years ago. They started
releasing a ton of crappy games right before the bottom fell out. Now,
videogames have become so mainstream that I don't think it will happen again
in the same way. However, if the game companies do not continue to offer
quality releases on a regular basis, the public overall will stop buying as
much.
Someone said that in a slow economy people will not buy as many games. I
think the truth could be the opposite as people who are out of work are more
likely to play games. They may rent them instead of buying, but they have
more time on their hands to play. If a family can not afford an expensive
vacation, what better way to keep the kiddies happy than to get some game
for them instead?
Phil
> thinking...
>
> Apparently, the PS2 is selling very slightly better to date than the PS1
> did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of time. Or
> 800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a total of
> somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported 60 million
> shipped worldwide).
>
ROFL you call shipping 60 million untis more than a year before the
PS1 did SLIGHTY better.
Phil
Nah the Xbox is a viable platform. Nowhere near as much as the PS2,
which is leaps and bounds above it's competetitors but MS has done
pretty good thus far. Gamecube however could easily be said to be on
life support considering the all the 3rd party support that has
vanished.
Android
"Robert P Holley" <holl...@delanet.com> wrote in message
news:bjnab1$l3e6d$1...@ID-121560.news.uni-berlin.de...
The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition). Meanwhile,
the GameCube is going to halt production a mere two years since its
introduction, and Microsoft lost a ton of money after they were forced to
reduce the price of the Xbox by $100 less than a year after launch's --and
you still don't think there is only one viable console? The market is more
one-sided than it has probably ever been.
If Coke or Pepsi sold six times more than the competition, I'm sure their
CEO would stand up and say "The cola wars [sic] is over!"
Robert P Holley
news:DVI7b.27112$mp.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
The GC and Xbox have shipped more than 20 million combined. How did you get
this "six times more" figure?
> Meanwhile,
> the GameCube is going to halt production a mere two years since its
> introduction, and Microsoft lost a ton of money after they were forced to
> reduce the price of the Xbox by $100 less than a year after launch's
How were they forced to reduce their price? Let me guess, I bet you think
they were reacting to Sony price cuts don't you?
If you want to argue they dropped their price to spur more sales, fine. But
if you're insinuating MS was forced by reacting to Sony, you're wrong.
> --and
> you still don't think there is only one viable console? The market is more
> one-sided than it has probably ever been.
Do you know what viable means? Both systems are doing fine, pulling in
money and have announced successors already. Yes they are miles behind the
PS2, but that doesn't mean they aren't viable consoles.
> If Coke or Pepsi sold six times more than the competition, I'm sure their
> CEO would stand up and say "The cola wars [sic] is over!"
And if the CEO of Sony stood up and claimed they sold six times more than
the competition, he's be singled out as a liar.
You realize the competition isn't *just* the GC or isn't *just* the Xbox,
it's both. So Sony hasn't sold six times more than it's competitors. Three
times, yes (which is still a huge margin) but six times, no.
Steven Hurdle
> The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
Meanwhile,
> the GameCube is going to halt production a mere two years since its
> introduction, and Microsoft lost a ton of money after they were forced to
> reduce the price of the Xbox by $100 less than a year after launch's --and
> you still don't think there is only one viable console? The market is more
> one-sided than it has probably ever been.
>
> If Coke or Pepsi sold six times more than the competition, I'm sure their
> CEO would stand up and say "The cola wars [sic] is over!"
It's hardly a fair contest what with the PS2 having first launched a year
and a half before the competition (March 2000 in Japan for the PS2,
September 2001 in Japan for the GCN, November 2001 in North America for the
Xbox). The lead is there, whether fair or not, though. :) The market's
not more one-sided than it's ever been, the NES had global marketshare that
the PS2 would envy (which is a real testament to how far Nintendo has
fallen, actually).
The question wasn't whether the PS2 will win/has won, it was whether the
alternative platforms are viable. When I go to www.tothegame.com/ and look
up the Xbox release list and note that there are 343 upcoming Xbox games and
372 upcoming PS2 games (blending North America and Europe together), yes the
Xbox is clearly viable. If the PS2 has a huge advantage in hardware but is
only managing an 8.5% advantage in software (outside Japan, at least) then
that's a success for the Xbox and proof positive of the fact that developers
find it easy (read: cost effective) to develop for, and that they like
developing for the platform and see a future in it. The Gamecube, with 188
new titles listed between North America and Europe combined, about half as
many as either of the competition, is the one that's lagging behind in the
all-important category of software support. Nintendo fans can crow all they
want about Nintendo's first-party output but, much like Sega's stellar
first-party output for the Dreamcast, it can do more harm than good if it
pillages third-party support, and it won't win the console many new fans
given that by now the vast majority of fans of Nintendo's first-party
franchises must have a GameCube, no?
Joe Ottoson
> "Joe Ottoson" <gro...@landfill.net> wrote in message
>
>> > That got me wondering...has the videogame market stopped growing?
>> > If you project these numbers out, the current generation of
>> > consoles should surpass the last one in sales numbers, but not by
>> > very much--and that's with 3 viable consoles on the market, not 2.
>> >
>> Part of the problem is that there's really only one viable console.
>> Two are on life support.
>
> Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to.
Saturn mustered about that much worldwide.
Joe Ottoson
news:ukB7b.40649$3b2.4...@twister.neo.rr.com:
>
> "Joe Ottoson" <gro...@landfill.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns93F2F157DD51ja...@130.133.1.4...
>> "Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote in
>> news:W7z7b.6004$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>>
>> Part of the problem is that there's really only one viable console.
>> Two are on life support.
>
> I think the biggest problem is the lack of innovation these days
> in
> games.
Nope. This has been and always will be a constant.
Joe Ottoson
Still not sure why me saying Xbox deserves more hype than reality has
delivered will result in increased romance. The logic breaks down there
somewhere, Hardcore.
Joe Ottoson
> "Android" <andr...@NOcomcastSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:DVI7b.27112$mp.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>>
>> --and
>> you still don't think there is only one viable console? The market is
>> more one-sided than it has probably ever been.
>
> Do you know what viable means? Both systems are doing fine, pulling
> in money and have announced successors already. Yes they are miles
> behind the PS2, but that doesn't mean they aren't viable consoles.
The same could've been said about the Saturn. Viable it was not.
Robert P Holley
In less than two years? That's impressive.
Jeremy Reaban
"Robert P Holley" <holl...@delanet.com> wrote in message
news:bjnts0$kuvcq$1...@ID-121560.news.uni-berlin.de...
I think 10 million is a bit generous, though. I think it was closer to
7 or 8 million world wide.
The Saturn was actually a fairly big seller in Japan. It was a viable
console there. Things were a lot worse in the US, due to
mismanagement. I think they sold about 1.5 million or so Saturns in
the US, and that was in 3 years.
The Xbox in many ways, is the reverse of the Saturn. It's doing fairly
well in the US, but horrible in Japan and so-so in Europe.
And much like the Saturn, the Xbox is a better machine than it's
competition. The Saturn, though slightly weaker at 3D than the PSX,
was much better at 2D, and with the addional ram cartridge, was
downright impressive. This also extended the life of it in the Japan
(the ram cart never made it out in the US).
Unlike the Saturn, the Xbox is also easy to program for. Part of the
Saturn's problems was that it was hard for some developers to use
properly.
Eiji Hayashi
> The question wasn't whether the PS2 will win/has won, it was whether the
> alternative platforms are viable. When I go to www.tothegame.com/ and look
> up the Xbox release list and note that there are 343 upcoming Xbox games and
> 372 upcoming PS2 games (blending North America and Europe together), yes the
> Xbox is clearly viable. If the PS2 has a huge advantage in hardware but is
> only managing an 8.5% advantage in software (outside Japan, at least) then
Out of curiosity, why would you combine NA and Euro release lists but
don't include Japanese release lists? Considering there's about as
many Japanese PS2 new releases as both the NA and Euro COMBINED!
Either keep each region separate or combine all of them globally,
otherwise it would appear you're playing the number game.
Jordan Lund
> Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to.
It's also 2-5 million less than there are Dreamcasts and that's 3
years after Sega pulled the plug. ;^)
- Jordan
Eiji Hayashi
> The first videogame downfall came with Atari years ago. They started
> releasing a ton of crappy games right before the bottom fell out. Now,
> videogames have become so mainstream that I don't think it will happen again
> in the same way. However, if the game companies do not continue to offer
> quality releases on a regular basis, the public overall will stop buying as
> much.
> Someone said that in a slow economy people will not buy as many games. I
> think the truth could be the opposite as people who are out of work are more
> likely to play games. They may rent them instead of buying, but they have
> more time on their hands to play. If a family can not afford an expensive
> vacation, what better way to keep the kiddies happy than to get some game
> for them instead?
I agree. In fact I remember reading about this a couple of months ago.
Video games are considered "low cost entertainment" when compared to
cruises and vacations. A few game companies apparently attributed
their increased revenues to people who choose not to go on vacations
and stayed home and play video games.
Jordan Lund
> I think the third-party market is on life support on the GCN, due to the
> strength of first-party software on that system.
With the exception of Zelda most of the 1st party stuff has done
really poorly (Mario Sunshine anyone?) Even Metroid whihc was loved by
hard-core gamers and critics was shunned by the public at large.
- Jordan
Jordan Lund
> The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
Of course the Sony numbers have always been suspect (shipped vs. sold)
and then you add to that abyssmally high number of defective machines,
replacement machines and all those that are now sitting in finer game
stores as "Refurbished unit $149.99" and trade ins... The actual
number of machines sold through to consumers is probably around 25 to
30 million.
Sony has always reported double the number that have actually been
sold.
- Jordan
DGG
"Jeremy Reaban" <j...@connectria.com> wrote in message
news:vlv303q...@corp.supernews.com...
The Xbox is doing fairly well in Europe too... It was so-so when the Xbox
initially launched but things have changed now....basically it's the #2
console in every market outside of Japan.
Chieh Cheng
> did. That is, the PS2 sold three more units in the same amount of time. Or
> 800,000. I think that's what Sony said. Which is out of a total of
> somewhere between 50 and 60 million (Sony recently reported 60 million
> shipped worldwide).
Personally, I think the reason PS2 sold and is selling so well is
because of GT3. I just wrote about my analysis on why this is the case
earlier today here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlayStation3/message/8
And I think for PS3 to sell well, Polyphony Digital have to continue
its line of GT games on PlayStation 3. And, perhaps, not port it to
other entertainment systems.
Chieh
Leon Dexter
news:92dbefbe.03091...@posting.google.com...
But it still sold over a million copies, and so did Mario Sunshine, even
before they started giving them away, which is a nice bit of business ($40
million wholesale). Selling a million copies of a game on a system with a
userbase of less than 10 million isn't "poorly". Nintendo has done better
in the past, to be sure, but "poor in comparison" and "poor" are not the
same thing.
Leon Dexter
> The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
Meanwhile,
> the GameCube is going to halt production a mere two years since its
> introduction, and Microsoft lost a ton of money after they were forced to
> reduce the price of the Xbox by $100 less than a year after launch's --and
> you still don't think there is only one viable console? The market is more
> one-sided than it has probably ever been.
You think so? I guess you weren't around in the NES days then? The NES was
so dominant most people didn't even know it HAD competition.
By the way, Nintendo isn't "halting production", at least, not the way you
want to make it sound. They're selling off some inventory, not going out of
business.
And Microsoft wasn't "forced" to reduce the price on Xbox. They decided to
do so to help sales--which worked--and Sony was clever enough to reduce
their price a bit quicker to trick people like you into thinking Microsoft
was reacting to them. That also worked, apparently.
>
> If Coke or Pepsi sold six times more than the competition, I'm sure their
> CEO would stand up and say "The cola wars [sic] is over!"
The key word here is "selling". Even if your competition is selling 6 times
what you are, that means your product is also selling. McDonalds outsells
most other restaurants by ridiculous numbers, but that doesn't mean Olive
Garden, Denny's, or even Wendy's has to close up shop.
Leon Dexter
> Great post as it does raise a lot of question, but on the flip side I
don't
> think the N64 sold 20 million units in it's first two years.
No, it took almost 3 years, actually, looking back. That's still better
than GC or Xbox, and they both sold a million practically at launch in the
US. The N64 only sold 250,000 at launch, and about a half million by
Christmas, if I remember correctly.
El Guapo
Last I checked, selling a million+ copies of a game is still a pretty good
way of making money.
Steven Hurdle
> Out of curiosity, why would you combine NA and Euro release lists but
> don't include Japanese release lists?
Because www.tothegame.com/ is the only site I know of that has fairly
reliable release list information and those are the only markets they track.
> Considering there's about as
> many Japanese PS2 new releases as both the NA and Euro COMBINED!
There's certainly some duplication between those lists (from those
Japanese publishers that export a lot of games, like Capcom, Sega, Konami,
etc.). The games that are Japanese-only aren't of interest to a lot of
people outside of Japan (if it were otherwise, they WOULD be being released
outside of Japan :) ).
> Either keep each region separate or combine all of them globally,
> otherwise it would appear you're playing the number game.
And here I was thinking you'd be claiming I was playing a number's game
if I only looked at North America (where Xbox support is strongest),
needlessly electing not to include all the available info at my source.
Looking at it as you suggest, however...
Looking at the same release list at www.tothegame.com/ and removing all
titles already released in North America (and only on the list because they
have a pending European release), all titles not slated for North American
release (such as Championship Manager, etc.), and all games listed as "On
Hold", we come up with 324 games slated for upcoming North American release
on the PS2 and 310 games slated for upcoming North American release on the
Xbox. That gives the PS2 a region-1 (Canada and the U.S.) software
advantage of only 4.5%, significantly less than the 8.5% I had credited to
the PS2 in my post.
I suspected, and suspect, that if I had taken this tack off the bat you
or someone else would have criticised it as looking at the numbers as
narrowly as possible to find the angle that gave the Xbox the strongest
possible advantage. I deliberately did not take this tack because I wanted
to be as inclusive as possible within the available information, and state
very specifically where the information came from and what areas of the
world it represented. Your seeming attempt at a witch hunt ("it would
appear you're playing the number game") is not accurate or appreciated, and
in fact leaves me wondering if you're projecting. :)
Phil
Dude they are 1st party another words owned by Sony, just like Maughty
dag and Insomniac now are.
Phil
Bullshit there are not 30 million PS2 just lying around. Damn 20
million would be a stretch. What ever made you convince yourself that
it could be that high?
Phil
Yeah I was one of the 1.5 mil, what can I say I wanted VF.
> The Xbox in many ways, is the reverse of the Saturn. It's doing fairly
> well in the US, but horrible in Japan and so-so in Europe.
>
> And much like the Saturn, the Xbox is a better machine than it's
> competition. The Saturn, though slightly weaker at 3D than the PSX,
> was much better at 2D, and with the addional ram cartridge, was
> downright impressive. This also extended the life of it in the Japan
> (the ram cart never made it out in the US).
Slighty weaker at 3d it was a hell of alot more than slighty and in
the end what killed it.
> Unlike the Saturn, the Xbox is also easy to program for. Part of the
> Saturn's problems was that it was hard for some developers to use
> properly.
Agreed.
Alexander Mendes
lu...@earthlink.net (Jordan Lund) wrote:
> "Android" <andr...@NOcomcastSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:<DVI7b.27112$mp.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...
>
> > The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
>
> Of course the Sony numbers have always been suspect (shipped vs. sold)
> and then you add to that abyssmally high number of defective machines,
> replacement machines and all those that are now sitting in finer game
> stores as "Refurbished unit $149.99" and trade ins... The actual
> number of machines sold through to consumers is probably around 25 to
> 30 million.
And never mind that all third party data shows PS2's sell through in
this range for japan and the US alone.
Seriously, Jordan, it's time to get over the whole Dreamcast thing.
Alexander Mendes
gyps...@mindless.com (Chieh Cheng) wrote:
I don't know about Europe or japan, but PS2 sales in the US actually
*declined* in the month that GT3 was released, which shouldn't suprise
anyone, since it was released in the summer. That's not to say that GT3
didn't convince anyone to buy a PS2, but so did Kessen, Dynasty Warriors
2, MGS2, Silent Hill 2, GTA3, FFX, SSX, Madden...well, I think I'll just
stop there.
Robert P Holley
IAWTP
Robert P Holley
news:mumbles-EEED90...@news.verizon.net...
Now that is funny. :-) No offense, but Kessen doesn't spring to mind when
talking about system sellers.
Robert P Holley
news:hwP7b.6626$PE6...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Are you sure MP sold a million copies? If so, what are the break down for
each region?
Eiji Hayashi
> > Out of curiosity, why would you combine NA and Euro release lists but
> > don't include Japanese release lists?
>
> Because www.tothegame.com/ is the only site I know of that has fairly
> reliable release list information and those are the only markets they track.
oic. It'd be helpful if you listed the source to begin with.
> There's certainly some duplication between those lists (from those
> Japanese publishers that export a lot of games, like Capcom, Sega, Konami,
> etc.). The games that are Japanese-only aren't of interest to a lot of
> people outside of Japan (if it were otherwise, they WOULD be being released
> outside of Japan :) ).
corrections.. the powers that be THINKS it wouldn't be of interest.
Whether or not that really is the case is up to debate. For example,
does people outside of Japan really have no interest in Sega's Initial
D Special Stage? since it hasn't been localized? If so, why do I see
tons of people pumping quarters into the Initial D Arcade Stage arcade
machines in my local malls? and I live in Canada. Those machines are
always packed.
> And here I was thinking you'd be claiming I was playing a number's game
> if I only looked at North America (where Xbox support is strongest),
> needlessly electing not to include all the available info at my source.
> Looking at it as you suggest, however...
I'm not claiming that you ARE playing the number game, I said this
would make it APPEAR that you're playing the number game. I'm sure if
you read it again you'll see that's what I meant.
> Looking at the same release list at www.tothegame.com/ and removing all
> titles already released in North America (and only on the list because they
> have a pending European release), all titles not slated for North American
> release (such as Championship Manager, etc.), and all games listed as "On
> Hold", we come up with 324 games slated for upcoming North American release
> on the PS2 and 310 games slated for upcoming North American release on the
> Xbox. That gives the PS2 a region-1 (Canada and the U.S.) software
> advantage of only 4.5%, significantly less than the 8.5% I had credited to
> the PS2 in my post.
that's fine. I'm not questioning the numbers, which I really couldn't
give a damn about, since I don't care for either NA or Euro games, I'm
questioning the methodology.
> I suspected, and suspect, that if I had taken this tack off the bat you
> or someone else would have criticised it as looking at the numbers as
> narrowly as possible to find the angle that gave the Xbox the strongest
> possible advantage. I deliberately did not take this tack because I wanted
umm.. no. I wouldn't have bothered replying since I'm not really
interested in the North American region's console market. You of all
people should know this since I rarely comment on posts that are very
obviously North American centric.
> to be as inclusive as possible within the available information, and state
> very specifically where the information came from and what areas of the
> world it represented. Your seeming attempt at a witch hunt ("it would
> appear you're playing the number game") is not accurate or appreciated, and
> in fact leaves me wondering if you're projecting. :)
moi? witch hunt? non monsieur.. "It would appear" in this case is
taken to mean literally, not implicitly.
Jordan Lund
> Bullshit there are not 30 million PS2 just lying around. Damn 20
> million would be a stretch. What ever made you convince yourself that
> it could be that high?
Because every year since the PS2 was released Sony reports double the
number shipped than have actually been sold. It's been going on almost
since launch when they said they shipped 800,000 machines but once
everyone sold out the number was around 500,000.
- Jordan
Jordan Lund
> Are you sure MP sold a million copies? If so, what are the break down for
> each region?
I remember the UK stats had it at an abyssmal < 50,000. Terrible for
such a huge release. Nintendo themselves said they were disappointed
in the way software was selling on the cube.
- Jordan
Eiji Hayashi
Tell that to Scott
Eiji Hayashi
>
> > The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
>
> Of course the Sony numbers have always been suspect (shipped vs. sold)
> and then you add to that abyssmally high number of defective machines,
> replacement machines and all those that are now sitting in finer game
> stores as "Refurbished unit $149.99" and trade ins... The actual
> number of machines sold through to consumers is probably around 25 to
> 30 million.
25 to 30 million? are you insane? everyone knows there is only ONE
unit of PS2 machine that was ever sold. One guy plays with it for a
day before he gets bored of all the "exclusive AAA" titles on it and
then sell it, then another guy buys it from him, plays it for another
day and that one PS2 machine just gets circulated day after day so
that 60 million people have played it, but there is only that one unit
which exist at any time. The only time Sony starts up the factory and
make another one is when that one machine breaks, and they're forced
to replace it, which happens frequently.
> Sony has always reported double the number that have actually been
> sold.
only double? don't you mean they overestimate by a factor of 60
million?
all kidding aside why stop at 25 to 30 million? why not 10 million? or
5 million, or one unit as in my example, its all equally correct.
Robert P Holley
I think the US wasn't anymore than 500K, so could it have sold another 450K
in Japan?
Steven Hurdle
> > Because www.tothegame.com/ is the only site I know of that has fairly
> > reliable release list information and those are the only markets they
track.
> oic. It'd be helpful if you listed the source to begin with.
Read/re-read the post you replied to. Heck, you even quoted it, the
relevant point highlighted because it's a link. Here it is again:
" The question wasn't whether the PS2 will win/has won, it was whether the
alternative platforms are viable. When I go to www.tothegame.com/ and look
up the Xbox release list and note that there are 343 upcoming Xbox games and
372 upcoming PS2 games (blending North America and Europe together), yes the
Xbox is clearly viable."
> > There's certainly some duplication between those lists (from those
> > Japanese publishers that export a lot of games, like Capcom, Sega,
Konami,
> > etc.). The games that are Japanese-only aren't of interest to a lot of
> > people outside of Japan (if it were otherwise, they WOULD be being
released
> > outside of Japan :) ).
> corrections.. the powers that be THINKS it wouldn't be of interest.
> Whether or not that really is the case is up to debate. For example,
> does people outside of Japan really have no interest in Sega's Initial
> D Special Stage? since it hasn't been localized?
I suppose we can speculate as to the possible huge interest in Morrowind
in Japan if only they'd get an opportunity to play such a bold North
American-style RPG.
> If so, why do I see
> tons of people pumping quarters into the Initial D Arcade Stage arcade
> machines in my local malls? and I live in Canada. Those machines are
> always packed.
People will pop quarters into something that they wouldn't pay $69.99 CAD
for, though. And there are probably very few Initial D Arcade Stage
machines outside Japan so what interest there is will be disproportionately
concentrated in those machines, once word gets around.
I recognise the possibility that a market can be developed for a new
genre upon its release and I never said that there was no interest or that
there couldn't be great interest, just that there isn't at present great
interest outside Japan. In fact, it will be interesting to see how Splinter
Cell does with its upcoming Xbox release in Japan. The Japanese have some
interest in mission-based stealth games (Metal Gear, for example) and
Splinter Cell's possibly the best entry into this genre ever, but with a
feel that's decidedly different than any Japanese-authored one I've seen.
It'll be interesting to see how it does. It easily outsold DOAX here, but I
seriously doubt it'll do so so easily over there. :)
> > And here I was thinking you'd be claiming I was playing a number's
game
> > if I only looked at North America (where Xbox support is strongest),
> > needlessly electing not to include all the available info at my source.
> > Looking at it as you suggest, however...
> I'm not claiming that you ARE playing the number game, I said this
> would make it APPEAR that you're playing the number game. I'm sure if
> you read it again you'll see that's what I meant.
Oh, I saw that. See below.
> that's fine. I'm not questioning the numbers, which I really couldn't
> give a damn about, since I don't care for either NA or Euro games, I'm
> questioning the methodology.
If you have a reliable English-language source (or easily and reliably
translatable source via freely available online tools) for Japanese
releases, then I'd be happy to expand the methodology. Given your
estimation that there are as many Japanese PS2 releases as releases in North
America and Europe combined, after removing duplicated titles the PS2 would
have approximately twice as many games released globally as the Xbox, and
that's a real success for Microsoft's efforts given Sony has a 6:1 advantage
in hardware. You would expect Sony to have a 6:1 (or perhaps even greater)
advantage in software too, but it hasn't materialised. I submit it's
because the Xbox is the easiest to develop for (read: most cost-effective,
and yes easier than the GCN what with the prevalence of tools for
x86/DirectX and people familiar with same).
> > I suspected, and suspect, that if I had taken this tack off the bat
you
> > or someone else would have criticised it as looking at the numbers as
> > narrowly as possible to find the angle that gave the Xbox the strongest
> > possible advantage. I deliberately did not take this tack because I
wanted
> umm.. no. I wouldn't have bothered replying since I'm not really
> interested in the North American region's console market. You of all
> people should know this since I rarely comment on posts that are very
> obviously North American centric.
I don't know what to think of you, actually. Our last few exchanges have
left me scratching my head.
> > to be as inclusive as possible within the available information, and
state
> > very specifically where the information came from and what areas of the
> > world it represented. Your seeming attempt at a witch hunt ("it would
> > appear you're playing the number game") is not accurate or appreciated,
and
> > in fact leaves me wondering if you're projecting. :)
> moi? witch hunt? non monsieur.. "It would appear" in this case is
> taken to mean literally, not implicitly.
Easy to say, but coming from someone who admits to laziness being the
reason for creating cross-posted threads rather than creating individual
threads when an item is relevant to more than one platform, and someone who
expressed no concern whatsoever as to whether said crossposted threads he
created degenerated into flamewars or not, I'm perhaps less charitable on
this point than I would otherwise be as to your intent.
Alexander Mendes
IIRC, the game sold somewhere around 500k units worldwide. Considering
that it was released close to launch in Japan and the US (and possibly
europe), I'd say it qualifies as a system-seller.
I certainly wouldn't call it a *good* game, but it's worth remembering
that many peopel were impressed by it's real-time cinematics.
Alexander Mendes
Actually, Famitsu reports 1.2 million copies of Smash Bros. sold in
japan, and I've heard 1.6 million sold in the US. That's close to 3
million, excluding Europe.
Bear in mind that the original N64 game sold far better than that.
knah_pu_kcip
>>>>Are you sure MP sold a million copies? If so, what are the break
down
>>>>for each region?
>>> I remember the UK stats had it at an abyssmal < 50,000. Terrible for
>>> such a huge release. Nintendo themselves said they were disappointed
>>> in the way software was selling on the cube.
>> I think the US wasn't anymore than 500K, so could it have sold
another 450K
>> in Japan?
> Actually, Famitsu reports 1.2 million copies of Smash Bros. sold in
> japan, and I've heard 1.6 million sold in the US. That's close to 3
> million, excluding Europe.
>
> Bear in mind that the original N64 game sold far better than that.
That's all well and good, except they were talking about Metroid Prime,
not Smash Brothers.
Leon Dexter
news:bjppup$m9i91$1...@ID-121560.news.uni-
> > But it still sold over a million copies, and so did Mario Sunshine, even
> > before they started giving them away, which is a nice bit of business
($40
> > million wholesale). Selling a million copies of a game on a system with
a
> > userbase of less than 10 million isn't "poorly". Nintendo has done
better
> > in the past, to be sure, but "poor in comparison" and "poor" are not the
> > same thing.
>
> Are you sure MP sold a million copies? If so, what are the break down for
> each region?
No, I can't find a specific source saying it sold a million. However, the
numbers for first-week sales that I have were 250,000 in the US and 100,000
in the UK. It continued to sell reasonably well in the US after its debut;
in the UK it dropped off the charts like a rock. In Japan, it sold very
poorly, only about 90,000 copies as of July.
Going off of first-week numbers, it's not unreasonable to think it could
have hit a million by now. It might be close, even in the US alone...hard
to say, but definitely possible. It's been ten months on the market now.
To find out for sure, you can go to the link below, but it'll cost you. :-)
http://www.mindbranch.com/catalog/print_product_page.jsp?code=R143-013
Chieh Cheng
> > because of GT3. I just wrote about my analysis on why this is the case
> > earlier today here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlayStation3/message/8
> >
> > And I think for PS3 to sell well, Polyphony Digital have to continue
> > its line of GT games on PlayStation 3. And, perhaps, not port it to
> > other entertainment systems.
>
> dag and Insomniac now are.
Yah, so? They still have to continue to produce the GT line in order
for many to buy into PS3.
Chieh
Chieh Cheng
> > because of GT3. I just wrote about my analysis on why this is the case
> > earlier today here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlayStation3/message/8
> >
> > And I think for PS3 to sell well, Polyphony Digital have to continue
> > its line of GT games on PlayStation 3. And, perhaps, not port it to
> > other entertainment systems.
>
> I don't know about Europe or japan, but PS2 sales in the US actually
> *declined* in the month that GT3 was released, which shouldn't suprise
> anyone, since it was released in the summer. That's not to say that GT3
> didn't convince anyone to buy a PS2, but so did Kessen, Dynasty Warriors
> 2, MGS2, Silent Hill 2, GTA3, FFX, SSX, Madden...well, I think I'll just
> stop there.
Out of all the games you mentioned, I have only heard of Dynasty
Warriors, Silent Hill 2, and GTA3. And I am only familiar with Silent
Hill 2 by name.
Chieh
Leon Dexter
> > I don't know about Europe or japan, but PS2 sales in the US actually
> > *declined* in the month that GT3 was released, which shouldn't suprise
> > anyone, since it was released in the summer. That's not to say that GT3
> > didn't convince anyone to buy a PS2, but so did Kessen, Dynasty Warriors
> > 2, MGS2, Silent Hill 2, GTA3, FFX, SSX, Madden...well, I think I'll just
> > stop there.
>
> Out of all the games you mentioned, I have only heard of Dynasty
> Warriors, Silent Hill 2, and GTA3. And I am only familiar with Silent
> Hill 2 by name.
MGS2 is Metal Gear Solid 2, which I'd say sold more systems than GT3. FFX
is Final Fantasy X, which probably also did. GTA3 definitely sold more
systems than both of those, and GT3, all combined.
Phil
What I find funny is that they blame the PS2 for the DCs early demise
if any console was responsible it was the Xbox.
Phil
WRONG! Way to go Jordan this is the dumbest thing I have see on usenet
all day and that's saying something. You're obviously referring the
the US launch of the PS2. Sony intended to shit 1 million units at the
launch of the PS2 but due to manufacturing issues involving a new chip
plant they could ship 500k, which propmptly sold out. The 800k figure
is for PS2 sales as of the end of 2001 representing the additional
300k units Sony got to market between Oct 26th and Xmas.
Phil
Yeah suppose he can ignore that over 400 million units of more than
2000 different PS2 titles have been sold while he's at it too.
> Seriously, Jordan, it's time to get over the whole Dreamcast thing.
Not only that any animosity over the demise of the DC should be
directed at the Xbox anyway.
Alexander Mendes
yeah, I was asleep at teh wheel there.
Anyway, last I heard, MP sold about 960k in the US. It's not Nintendo's
biggest saeller, but it's cracked the million mark when Japan and Europe
are included.
Alexander Mendes
"Leon Dexter" <leondext...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Actualy, as I remember, GT3 is the top selling PS2 game outside of the
GTA series. SSX is EA's snowboarding game, and one of the top selling
games during the US launch. Kessen, as I recall, did very well in
Japan, and wowed people with it's huge numbers of on-screen characters.
Madden is EA's hugely popular US football game, and usually sells in the
millions every year.
Also, I left off stuff like Bouncer and ZOE, but basically, it's a list
of games that got people excited about PS2's capabilities, or games that
sold well. The two usually go hand in hand, though.
Chieh Cheng
> > its line of GT games on PlayStation 3. And, perhaps, not port it to
> > other entertainment systems.
>
> didn't convince anyone to buy a PS2, but so did Kessen, Dynasty Warriors
> 2, MGS2, Silent Hill 2, GTA3, FFX, SSX, Madden...well, I think I'll just
> stop there.
GTA and a few other games you mentioned are available on Xbox and PC,
so one doesn't have to buy a PS2 for those games.
I have to say, I must be somewhat on track with my original claim.
Here is a quote from the October 2003 issue of GMR to back me up,
"Yeah, [Project Gotham Racing 2] was a must-have if you owned an Xbox
already, but it wasn't the kind of game you'd buy a console for, like
GT3 was for PS2.
Chieh
Alexander Mendes
> > > And I think for PS3 to sell well, Polyphony Digital have to continue
> > > its line of GT games on PlayStation 3. And, perhaps, not port it to
> > > other entertainment systems.
> >
> > anyone, since it was released in the summer. That's not to say that GT3
> > didn't convince anyone to buy a PS2, but so did Kessen, Dynasty Warriors
> > 2, MGS2, Silent Hill 2, GTA3, FFX, SSX, Madden...well, I think I'll just
> > stop there.
>
> GTA and a few other games you mentioned are available on Xbox and PC,
> so one doesn't have to buy a PS2 for those games.
That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact that the above games were
all strong sellers on the PS2.
> I have to say, I must be somewhat on track with my original claim.
> Here is a quote from the October 2003 issue of GMR to back me up,
> "Yeah, [Project Gotham Racing 2] was a must-have if you owned an Xbox
> already, but it wasn't the kind of game you'd buy a console for, like
> GT3 was for PS2.
Two major problems:
1) A quote from a magazine does not by itself prove that the PS2 owes
it's sales lead to GT3, especially since magazines are prone to all
sorts of odd statements,
2) the quote you provided doesn't claim this anyway. Instead, it says
that GT2 is worth buying PS2 for.
Now, if you could show that the vast majority of PS2 owners bought a
copy of GT3, then you'd have something, but in reality, the vast
majority of PS2 owners do *not* own a copy of GT3, and PS2 saw strong
sales before GT3 was released in any territory.
Robert P Holley
news:a9c2e129.0309...@posting.google.com...
> Sony intended to shit 1 million units at the
> launch of the PS2
This is a funny typo in it's own right, but coming from you it's a classic.
Robert P Holley
> Alexander Mendes <mum...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<mumbles-52B3F7...@news.verizon.net>...
> > In article <92dbefbe.03091...@posting.google.com>,
> > lu...@earthlink.net (Jordan Lund) wrote:
> >
> > > "Android" <andr...@NOcomcastSPAM.net> wrote in message
> > > news:<DVI7b.27112$mp.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...
> > >
> > > > The PS2 shipped 60 million (six times more than the competition).
> > >
> > > Of course the Sony numbers have always been suspect (shipped vs. sold)
> > > and then you add to that abyssmally high number of defective machines,
> > > replacement machines and all those that are now sitting in finer game
> > > stores as "Refurbished unit $149.99" and trade ins... The actual
> > > number of machines sold through to consumers is probably around 25 to
> > > 30 million.
> >
> > And never mind that all third party data shows PS2's sell through in
> > this range for japan and the US alone.
>
> Yeah suppose he can ignore that over 400 million units of more than
> 2000 different PS2 titles have been sold while he's at it too.
Link please.
> > Seriously, Jordan, it's time to get over the whole Dreamcast thing.
>
> Not only that any animosity over the demise of the DC should be
> directed at the Xbox anyway.
How do you figure?
Robert P Holley
I believe it only sold 200K in the US.
> I certainly wouldn't call it a *good* game, but it's worth remembering
> that many peopel were impressed by it's real-time cinematics.
I would lump Kessen in with games like Luigi's Mansion. They sold fairly
well at launch, but not because people bought systems just for those games
(aka system sellers). People bought systems first and just happened to need
games to play, thus LM and Kessen fit that bill.
They were good enough to take a gander at during launch, but I wouldn't say
people bought a system just to play those games.
Eiji Hayashi
> Read/re-read the post you replied to. Heck, you even quoted it, the
> relevant point highlighted because it's a link. Here it is again:
>
> " The question wasn't whether the PS2 will win/has won, it was whether the
> alternative platforms are viable. When I go to www.tothegame.com/ and look
> up the Xbox release list and note that there are 343 upcoming Xbox games and
> 372 upcoming PS2 games (blending North America and Europe together), yes the
> Xbox is clearly viable."
no I meant that you should mention right from the beginning that that
source only gives combined NA/Euro #s, and explain your choice of
using this source.
> I suppose we can speculate as to the possible huge interest in Morrowind
> in Japan if only they'd get an opportunity to play such a bold North
> American-style RPG.
if you can find me discussions on Japanese message boards where actual
Japanese state their interest in Morrowind, then I'll buy it, but
otherwise this is just speculation, whereas my example of Initial D is
physical evidence
> People will pop quarters into something that they wouldn't pay $69.99 CAD
> for, though. And there are probably very few Initial D Arcade Stage
> machines outside Japan so what interest there is will be disproportionately
> concentrated in those machines, once word gets around.
are you kidding me? I know you live in Canada.. do you by chance live
in Toronto? if so, you can't have been to many arcades. Almost every
arcade I've been to here in Toronto has Initial D. Orbit in Pacific
Mall, Lovegetty in Commerce Gate, Funland at Yonge & Dundas, they even
have it in a couple of theatres like the Cineplex at Eglington town.
The machine is everywhere! In fact I'd have a hard time finding an
arcade that DOESN'T have Initial D, and everywhere I go I see people
playing it, not just Asians but people of all races. I'd say that's
far better evidence than your attempt at proving the converse with the
Morrowind example.
> I recognise the possibility that a market can be developed for a new
> genre upon its release and I never said that there was no interest or that
> there couldn't be great interest, just that there isn't at present great
> interest outside Japan. In fact, it will be interesting to see how Splinter
> Cell does with its upcoming Xbox release in Japan. The Japanese have some
> interest in mission-based stealth games (Metal Gear, for example) and
> Splinter Cell's possibly the best entry into this genre ever, but with a
> feel that's decidedly different than any Japanese-authored one I've seen.
> It'll be interesting to see how it does. It easily outsold DOAX here, but I
> seriously doubt it'll do so so easily over there. :)
Lets put some money on it shall we. I say it doesn't break 50K.
Remember our TFO bet is still in place. ^_^'
> If you have a reliable English-language source (or easily and reliably
> translatable source via freely available online tools) for Japanese
> releases, then I'd be happy to expand the methodology. Given your
I think Magicbox has one.. but don't know how reliable it is
> estimation that there are as many Japanese PS2 releases as releases in North
> America and Europe combined, after removing duplicated titles the PS2 would
this isn't hard to estimate. Gamefaqs for instance has a pretty good
comparison list. The main console page for a specific console at
gamefaqs has release list for all regions. For example, if you go to
www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2, you will see the PS2 release list for
NA/Japan and Europe. For example, for the remaining month of
September, you will see 18 upcoming PS2 releases for North America, 10
releases for Europe, and 20 for PS2 (which only covers up to the 25th,
and there are games that are coming out for sure in September that I
know which they didn't have room to fit in the list, for example,
Space Harrier & Golden Axe)
> have approximately twice as many games released globally as the Xbox, and
> that's a real success for Microsoft's efforts given Sony has a 6:1 advantage
> in hardware. You would expect Sony to have a 6:1 (or perhaps even greater)
> advantage in software too, but it hasn't materialised. I submit it's
Why? I find this logic faulty. Why must the porportion of software be
the same as that for hardware? It doesn't make any sense, and I don't
think you can find any historical evidence to backup this claim
either.
> because the Xbox is the easiest to develop for (read: most cost-effective,
> and yes easier than the GCN what with the prevalence of tools for
> x86/DirectX and people familiar with same).
and I submit that the # of software available for a console has no
direct correlation with the # of hardware that is on the market, until
you show me some historical numerical analysis which shows some sort
of direct proportional correlation (which I suspect you won't be able
to). Yes everyone knows that a console that has more hardware
generally has more software support, but to actually suggest there is
some sort of mathematical correlation least of all something as simple
as direct proportionality is IMHO a gross simplification of what is in
fact a very complex system.
> Easy to say, but coming from someone who admits to laziness being the
> reason for creating cross-posted threads rather than creating individual
> threads when an item is relevant to more than one platform, and someone who
> expressed no concern whatsoever as to whether said crossposted threads he
> created degenerated into flamewars or not, I'm perhaps less charitable on
> this point than I would otherwise be as to your intent.
that's fair I suppose. But I don't think you appreciate my motive
behind this confrontation. I didn't question your methodology because
I think you were deliberately playing the number game, (which should
be obvious by now) I questioned it because it might give other people
the wrong impression. So in essence I was giving you a chance to
silence the critics before they could accuse you of playing the
number game.
Eiji Hayashi
>
> What I find funny is that they blame the PS2 for the DCs early demise
> if any console was responsible it was the Xbox.
? ? ? How do you figure that? the DC was in decline LONG before the XBOX came out
knah_pu_kcip
> yeah, I was asleep at teh wheel there.
>
> Anyway, last I heard, MP sold about 960k in the US. It's not
Nintendo's
> biggest saeller, but it's cracked the million mark when Japan and
Europe
> are included.
Too bad Redsniper7000 doesn't have the time to post anymore. He has
access to the sales numbers.
Robert P Holley
Man, I'll be happy when he gets divorced. ;-)
Chieh Cheng
> > so one doesn't have to buy a PS2 for those games.
>
> That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact that the above games were
> all strong sellers on the PS2.
That's nice, but the original point was not which game was strong
sellers on the PS2. The original point was which games caused the
consumer to purchase a game console for. That was the whole point of
GT3. Many, like myself, purchased PS2 for GT3.
> > I have to say, I must be somewhat on track with my original claim.
> > Here is a quote from the October 2003 issue of GMR to back me up,
> > "Yeah, [Project Gotham Racing 2] was a must-have if you owned an Xbox
> > already, but it wasn't the kind of game you'd buy a console for, like
> > GT3 was for PS2.
>
> Two major problems:
>
> 1) A quote from a magazine does not by itself prove that the PS2 owes
> it's sales lead to GT3, especially since magazines are prone to all
> sorts of odd statements,
True. But it shows that there are other people who felt the same way
and purchased PS2 for GT3. It shows that my case was not singular.
> 2) the quote you provided doesn't claim this anyway. Instead, it says
> that GT2 is worth buying PS2 for.
Absolutely, that was my original point. I think along the way, you
side-tracked.
> Now, if you could show that the vast majority of PS2 owners bought a
> copy of GT3, then you'd have something, but in reality, the vast
> majority of PS2 owners do *not* own a copy of GT3, and PS2 saw strong
> sales before GT3 was released in any territory.
Again, the original point was not that a majority of PS2 owners bought
GT3. The original point was that many people bought PS2 because of
GT3. I never tried to prove the point that existing PS2 owners wanted
to buy GT3. My point was that there were many non-PS2 owners that went
out and bought PS2 because GT3 was released.
Chieh
Chieh Cheng
> > Warriors, Silent Hill 2, and GTA3. And I am only familiar with Silent
> > Hill 2 by name.
>
> MGS2 is Metal Gear Solid 2, which I'd say sold more systems than GT3. FFX
> is Final Fantasy X, which probably also did.
This statement I could believe. Neither games are available on other
systems. But I like to see how you would back-up the "fact" that they
sold more systems than GT3?
> GTA3 definitely sold more systems than both of those, and GT3, all combined.
That one I can not believe without any proof. First of all, GTA3 is
available on PC's and Xbox. Thus the only people inclined to buy GTA3
for PS2 are people who already owned PS2. Or people who doesn't own
PC's, Xbox, and PS2 are inclined to purchase PS2 for GTA3. But on the
same token, those people may be inclined to buy PC's or Xbox's for
GTA3. Therefore, I don't see the rational of GTA3 selling PS2's.
Please show me some indication or proof.
Chieh
Steven Hurdle
> no I meant that you should mention right from the beginning that that
> source only gives combined NA/Euro #s,
"When I go to www.tothegame.com/ and look
up the Xbox release list and note that there are 343 upcoming Xbox games and
372 upcoming PS2 games (blending North America and Europe together), yes the
Xbox is clearly viable."
As quoted again above, I note that my source has release lists for the
two consoles and that the source lists 343 for the Xbox and 372 for the PS2,
and that these numbers are for the N.A. and European regions. If anyone was
at all unsure of my meaning I include a link to the site. I didn't say I
culled together some info, I said that's what the release lists said at the
site.
> and explain your choice of using this source.
What's to explain about use of the source? When you recently
cross-posted Japanese sales figures, what did you do to "explain your choice
of using" that source? I guess you mean I should have noted I didn't have
access to release lists for Japan too, but that would be evident to anyone
who checked my source so I figured I was good to go. In any case, I did
note I was speaking only of Europe and North America (which additionally
means that the Australian-only titles such as AFL Live 2003 and Australian
V8 Supercars got missed! :) ).
> > I suppose we can speculate as to the possible huge interest in
Morrowind
> > in Japan if only they'd get an opportunity to play such a bold North
> > American-style RPG.
> if you can find me discussions on Japanese message boards where actual
> Japanese state their interest in Morrowind, then I'll buy it, but
> otherwise this is just speculation, whereas my example of Initial D is
> physical evidence
The language barrier of playing a complicated and involved RPG versus a
racing game is extremely different. At any rate, I grant you that Japanese
games are more frequently imported than the other way around. I don't get
the impression the Japanese gaming media informs their readers about much
that goes on outside Japan, though.
> are you kidding me? I know you live in Canada.. do you by chance live
> in Toronto? if so, you can't have been to many arcades.
No, I don't live in Toronto. No, I've never been to a Toronto-area
arcade. Out here in B.C. I have seem some Japanese imports, but never an
Initial D unit. *shrug* Having said that, I'm sure someone will respond
with where one is. :)
> Almost every
> arcade I've been to here in Toronto has Initial D. Orbit in Pacific
> Mall, Lovegetty in Commerce Gate, Funland at Yonge & Dundas, they even
> have it in a couple of theatres like the Cineplex at Eglington town.
> The machine is everywhere! In fact I'd have a hard time finding an
> arcade that DOESN'T have Initial D, and everywhere I go I see people
> playing it, not just Asians but people of all races. I'd say that's
> far better evidence than your attempt at proving the converse with the
> Morrowind example.
Part of my point though is that people are willing to drop quarters,
tokens, and loonies into a game irrespective of whether they'd pay $69.99
CAD for it. Perhaps many of those arcade goers would buy a console version
of the game, but perhaps not. I've certainly played many arcade games I'd
*never* buy on a home system. As for the Morrowind reference, I wasn't
trying to prove anything beyond the fact that it's easy to suggest that
plenty-o-people would buy something if it was available to them but
difficult to prove ultimately.
> > I recognise the possibility that a market can be developed for a new
> > genre upon its release and I never said that there was no interest or
that
> > there couldn't be great interest, just that there isn't at present great
> > interest outside Japan. In fact, it will be interesting to see how
Splinter
> > Cell does with its upcoming Xbox release in Japan. The Japanese have
some
> > interest in mission-based stealth games (Metal Gear, for example) and
> > Splinter Cell's possibly the best entry into this genre ever, but with a
> > feel that's decidedly different than any Japanese-authored one I've
seen.
> > It'll be interesting to see how it does. It easily outsold DOAX here,
but I
> > seriously doubt it'll do so so easily over there. :)
>
> Lets put some money on it shall we. I say it doesn't break 50K.
> Remember our TFO bet is still in place. ^_^'
Oops, I'd better check Google Groups, I don't remember a TFO bet. :)
And given Halo broke 50K in Japan if my memory serves, though only just
barely, I'd be unsurprised if Splinter Cell did too as it seems more in line
with Japanese tastes than Halo. I'm not willing to put money on it, though,
but that's only because I don't bet money as a general rule.
> > If you have a reliable English-language source (or easily and
reliably
> > translatable source via freely available online tools) for Japanese
> > releases, then I'd be happy to expand the methodology. Given your
> I think Magicbox has one.. but don't know how reliable it is
I'll take a look, thanks.
> > estimation that there are as many Japanese PS2 releases as releases in
North
> > America and Europe combined, after removing duplicated titles the PS2
would
>
> this isn't hard to estimate. Gamefaqs for instance has a pretty good
> comparison list. The main console page for a specific console at
> gamefaqs has release list for all regions. For example, if you go to
> www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2, you will see the PS2 release list for
> NA/Japan and Europe. For example, for the remaining month of
> September, you will see 18 upcoming PS2 releases for North America, 10
> releases for Europe, and 20 for PS2 (which only covers up to the 25th,
> and there are games that are coming out for sure in September that I
> know which they didn't have room to fit in the list, for example,
> Space Harrier & Golden Axe)
Interesting, I hadn't considered using gamefaqs.com as a tool to estimate
this. Interesting.
> > have approximately twice as many games released globally as the Xbox,
and
> > that's a real success for Microsoft's efforts given Sony has a 6:1
advantage
> > in hardware. You would expect Sony to have a 6:1 (or perhaps even
greater)
> > advantage in software too, but it hasn't materialised. I submit it's
> Why? I find this logic faulty. Why must the porportion of software be
> the same as that for hardware? It doesn't make any sense, and I don't
> think you can find any historical evidence to backup this claim
> either.
I think the number of games for the NES versus the SMS and the Atari 7200
easily met or exceeded the respective hardware ratios. I believe the PSX
enjoyed software support versus the N64 that exceeded their respective
hardware ratios as well. I don't think the logic is faulty at all, success
is supposed to breed success and I'd generally expect the market leader to
enjoy software support that was greater than the hardware ratio, in fact, as
the NES and PSX enjoyed over their competitors. I believe the SNES also
enjoyed such an advantage, as it had a greater advantage in software than in
hardware. Certainly the Atari 2600 did, back in the day, I believe. I
think historically that's the case for the market leader as everyone wants
to release software for it. I think the difference with the Xbox is that
Microsoft has been successful in courting developers by making the Xbox an
attractive platform to develop for, and that ports have changed the dynamic
a great deal as well.
> and I submit that the # of software available for a console has no
> direct correlation with the # of hardware that is on the market, until
> you show me some historical numerical analysis which shows some sort
> of direct proportional correlation (which I suspect you won't be able
> to). Yes everyone knows that a console that has more hardware
> generally has more software support, but to actually suggest there is
> some sort of mathematical correlation least of all something as simple
> as direct proportionality is IMHO a gross simplification of what is in
> fact a very complex system.
Re-read what I said above (you quoted it). I did not suggest that it's
necessarily directly proportional, in fact I suggested the market leader
could enjoy software support that exceeds the hardware ratio. However, if a
company has a 6:1 advantage over another platform in hardware and less than
a 2:1 advantage in upcoming software, yes the great disparity between those
two spreads does indeed surprise me. I haven't done any numerical analysis
other than to note that Atari 2600, NES, and PSX all had gigantic software
advantages over the competition that seem on the face of them to be not
entirely dissimilar to their hardware advantages. I'll dig up some numbers,
if I'm able to get reliable and cross-comparable sources, and get back to
you.
> > Easy to say, but coming from someone who admits to laziness being the
> > reason for creating cross-posted threads rather than creating individual
> > threads when an item is relevant to more than one platform, and someone
who
> > expressed no concern whatsoever as to whether said crossposted threads
he
> > created degenerated into flamewars or not, I'm perhaps less charitable
on
> > this point than I would otherwise be as to your intent.
> that's fair I suppose. But I don't think you appreciate my motive
> behind this confrontation. I didn't question your methodology because
> I think you were deliberately playing the number game, (which should
> be obvious by now) I questioned it because it might give other people
> the wrong impression. So in essence I was giving you a chance to
> silence the critics before they could accuse you of playing the
> number game.
If that was your intent then fair enough. *shrug* I'm not sure what to
add to this, other than I still feel that someone would have likely called
me on looking only at the North American market. :)
Eiji Hayashi
> What's to explain about use of the source? When you recently
> cross-posted Japanese sales figures, what did you do to "explain your choice
> of using" that source? I guess you mean I should have noted I didn't have
> access to release lists for Japan too, but that would be evident to anyone
> who checked my source so I figured I was good to go. In any case, I did
> note I was speaking only of Europe and North America (which additionally
> means that the Australian-only titles such as AFL Live 2003 and Australian
> V8 Supercars got missed! :) ).
there's nothing to explain for me, and my post, since its pretty clear
its only numbers for one region, however when you combine #'s from 2
regions, but not others, it begs the question why those 2 regions.
> The language barrier of playing a complicated and involved RPG versus a
> racing game is extremely different. At any rate, I grant you that Japanese
> games are more frequently imported than the other way around. I don't get
> the impression the Japanese gaming media informs their readers about much
> that goes on outside Japan, though.
maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the fact remains that far more titles
that come out of the land of the rising sun is popular in North
America than the other way around
> No, I don't live in Toronto. No, I've never been to a Toronto-area
> arcade. Out here in B.C. I have seem some Japanese imports, but never an
> Initial D unit. *shrug* Having said that, I'm sure someone will respond
> with where one is. :)
I should also mention that the Initial D arcade machines here in
Toronto are ALL TRANSLATED and completely in English! they even use
the bastardized Tokyo Pop (spit!) English names for all the
characters!
> Part of my point though is that people are willing to drop quarters,
> tokens, and loonies into a game irrespective of whether they'd pay $69.99
> CAD for it. Perhaps many of those arcade goers would buy a console version
> of the game, but perhaps not. I've certainly played many arcade games I'd
> *never* buy on a home system. As for the Morrowind reference, I wasn't
> trying to prove anything beyond the fact that it's easy to suggest that
> plenty-o-people would buy something if it was available to them but
> difficult to prove ultimately.
The point is you suggest that the Japanese games that don't get
localized aren't of interest to anyone in North America. I'm simply
pointing out that the interest exist. Regardless of whether or not
playing the game in the arcade translates into buying the game (which
opens a whole new can of worms), I think this example amply
demonstrates that the interest is there.
> > Lets put some money on it shall we. I say it doesn't break 50K.
> > Remember our TFO bet is still in place. ^_^'
>
> Oops, I'd better check Google Groups, I don't remember a TFO bet. :)
> And given Halo broke 50K in Japan if my memory serves, though only just
> barely, I'd be unsurprised if Splinter Cell did too as it seems more in line
> with Japanese tastes than Halo. I'm not willing to put money on it, though,
> but that's only because I don't bet money as a general rule.
could've sworn it was you, I made the bet with someone
> > this isn't hard to estimate. Gamefaqs for instance has a pretty good
> > comparison list. The main console page for a specific console at
> > gamefaqs has release list for all regions. For example, if you go to
> > www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2, you will see the PS2 release list for
> > NA/Japan and Europe. For example, for the remaining month of
> > September, you will see 18 upcoming PS2 releases for North America, 10
> > releases for Europe, and 20 for PS2 (which only covers up to the 25th,
> > and there are games that are coming out for sure in September that I
> > know which they didn't have room to fit in the list, for example,
> > Space Harrier & Golden Axe)
>
> Interesting, I hadn't considered using gamefaqs.com as a tool to estimate
> this. Interesting.
come to think of it.. there are atleast 2 more games not on the
Gamefaq Japanese ps2 release list which I KNOW FOR SURE is coming out
in September (probably because of a lack of space) are Dynasty Warrior
4 Extreme Legends and Sunrise World War.. that would make the total 24
to the 28 for NA and Europe combined.. roughly equivalent (I'm sure
I'm missing a bunch of other games too)
> I think the number of games for the NES versus the SMS and the Atari 7200
> easily met or exceeded the respective hardware ratios. I believe the PSX
> enjoyed software support versus the N64 that exceeded their respective
> hardware ratios as well. I don't think the logic is faulty at all, success
ok.. I'm calling your bluff.. let see some numbers ^_^'
> to release software for it. I think the difference with the Xbox is that
> Microsoft has been successful in courting developers by making the Xbox an
> attractive platform to develop for, and that ports have changed the dynamic
> a great deal as well.
no I think the difference with MS is that it has a natural attraction
to developers that are traditional PC game developers. Developers of
traditional arcade games and console games have received it with
mediocre warmth at best.
> Re-read what I said above (you quoted it). I did not suggest that it's
> necessarily directly proportional, in fact I suggested the market leader
ofcourse you did.. why else did you bring up the fact that the
hardware sales of PS2 to XBOX is 6 to 1? and then making some sort of
conclusion of how well XBOX's software situtations is because of its
software porportions are with respect to this? If you honestly believe
that there is no direct proportion correlation between hardware and
software, this 6 to 1 would be irrelevent, because for all we know
this could be a quadratic or cubic relationship. Even if it is linear,
God knows what the x factor could be. I don't have the numbers, but
I'm willing to be bet its not some linear function, assuming that a
relation even exists.
> could enjoy software support that exceeds the hardware ratio. However, if a
> company has a 6:1 advantage over another platform in hardware and less than
> a 2:1 advantage in upcoming software, yes the great disparity between those
> two spreads does indeed surprise me. I haven't done any numerical analysis
another thing that the oversimplification of using direct proportions
of total games ignores is multiplatform games, since multiplatform
games are counted for all consoles, by including it, it skews the
numbers. I mean, think about it, if every game is multiplatform, then
the software ratio of two consoles would be 1:1. I don't think it
makes sense counting total ratio. Counting only exclusives might be a
better indicator.
> other than to note that Atari 2600, NES, and PSX all had gigantic software
> advantages over the competition that seem on the face of them to be not
> entirely dissimilar to their hardware advantages. I'll dig up some numbers,
> if I'm able to get reliable and cross-comparable sources, and get back to
> you.
please do
> If that was your intent then fair enough. *shrug* I'm not sure what to
> add to this, other than I still feel that someone would have likely called
> me on looking only at the North American market. :)
I wouldn't have
Leon Dexter
> > MGS2 is Metal Gear Solid 2, which I'd say sold more systems than GT3.
FFX
> > is Final Fantasy X, which probably also did.
>
> This statement I could believe. Neither games are available on other
> systems. But I like to see how you would back-up the "fact" that they
> sold more systems than GT3?
I didn't say it was a fact, it is my knowledgable opinion. The Final
Fantasy series is one of the most popular. It has absolutely rabid fans,
and it has been marketed to the mass market extremely well since it went to
3D.
As for Metal Gear, it won all kinds of "Best of Show" awards at trade shows
like E3, was hailed as the first game to really show what the PS2 was
capable of, and was one of the most anticipated games on the system. When
it actually came out, though, it was disappointing to many (myself
included).
> > GTA3 definitely sold more systems than both of those, and GT3, all
combined.
>
> That one I can not believe without any proof. First of all, GTA3 is
> available on PC's and Xbox. Thus the only people inclined to buy GTA3
> for PS2 are people who already owned PS2. Or people who doesn't own
> PC's, Xbox, and PS2 are inclined to purchase PS2 for GTA3. But on the
> same token, those people may be inclined to buy PC's or Xbox's for
> GTA3. Therefore, I don't see the rational of GTA3 selling PS2's.
> Please show me some indication or proof.
Well, first of all, GTA3 is NOT available on Xbox until November, nor was it
available on PC for many months after the exclusive PS2 release, nor was it
expected on either of those systems due to Sony's exclusivity contract with
Rockstar. And it sold very poorly on PC compared to PS2, mainly because the
commercial PC gaming market is miniscule compared to the console market, but
also because it had been available for so long on PS2.
Secondly, GTA3 has sold more than all the other mentioned games combined.
Thirdly, it's one of the highest-rated games of this generation of hardware,
by critics and the general public both.
Fourthly, it continued to sell extremely well after its initial
introduction, which would imply to me that, since those people who already
had PS2s had plenty of time to buy it already, subsequent sales were more
likely to be from new PS2 owners, whose decision to buy a PS2 was influenced
by that game--it was the best-selling PS2 game for months, you know, during
which time millions of PS2s were sold, and millions of the game at the same
time.
Would you like me to go on? I can hardly believe that anyone knowledgable
about the console market would even argue that the single most influential
PS2 game on purchases was not GTA3.
Doug Jacobs
> Really? I think 10 million people is a pretty good market to sell to. I
> mean, individual titles of GC and Xbox games routinely outsell such things
> as books, CDs, movies, individual models of TVs, VCRs, DVD players, and all
> sorts of other entertainment-related products. And all of those products
> have a potential buyer pool of pretty much the entire population.
> So I'd say the GC and Xbox are pretty healthy consoles. Nintendo is making
> money from the GC, and though Microsoft might not have recouped its
> investment in Xbox yet, plenty of publishers are making money from the Xbox
> market. They're both very much off of life support and doing fine.
10 mill vs. 60 mill?
Also remember that most games don't sell to a high percentage of the
audience. (How many copies has GTA3 or GTA:VC sold vs. # of consoles, for
instance?)
The PS2's market is so huge that even managing to get 1% of the owners to
buy your game means you're going to make money.
Alexander Mendes
"Robert P Holley" <holl...@delanet.com> wrote:
<big snip>
> I would lump Kessen in with games like Luigi's Mansion. They sold fairly
> well at launch, but not because people bought systems just for those games
> (aka system sellers). People bought systems first and just happened to need
> games to play, thus LM and Kessen fit that bill.
What makes you so sure that people didn't buy gamecubes for Luigi's
Mansion? I know of quite a few people that cited it as one of the
reasons they bought a GC. Most of them didn't seem too happy about the
game, though :)
BTW, Kessen got 363k sales during the year 2000 in Japan, and was the
PS2's fourth highest seller for that year, according to Magic Box.
Again, I think it's safe to say that many people bought the PS2 at least
partly for that game.
Alexander Mendes
> > > GTA and a few other games you mentioned are available on Xbox and PC,
> > > so one doesn't have to buy a PS2 for those games.
> >
> > That's nice, but it doesn't change the fact that the above games were
> > all strong sellers on the PS2.
>
> That's nice, but the original point was not which game was strong
> sellers on the PS2. The original point was which games caused the
> consumer to purchase a game console for. That was the whole point of
> GT3. Many, like myself, purchased PS2 for GT3.
And many people bought a PS2 for Madden, FFX, GTA3/VC, Dynasty Warriors,
SSX, MGS2, Tekken Tag, Ridge Racer, and so forth. The fact that some
of these games are available on other systems is simply not relevent to
this.
> > > I have to say, I must be somewhat on track with my original claim.
> > > Here is a quote from the October 2003 issue of GMR to back me up,
> > > "Yeah, [Project Gotham Racing 2] was a must-have if you owned an Xbox
> > > already, but it wasn't the kind of game you'd buy a console for, like
> > > GT3 was for PS2.
> >
> > Two major problems:
> >
> > 1) A quote from a magazine does not by itself prove that the PS2 owes
> > it's sales lead to GT3, especially since magazines are prone to all
> > sorts of odd statements,
>
> True. But it shows that there are other people who felt the same way
> and purchased PS2 for GT3. It shows that my case was not singular.
>
> > 2) the quote you provided doesn't claim this anyway. Instead, it says
> > that GT2 is worth buying PS2 for.
>
> Absolutely, that was my original point. I think along the way, you
> side-tracked.
No, your original point was that GT3 was the reason why PS2 sold/sells
well (your quote: "Personally, I think the reason PS2 sold and is
selling so well is because of GT3."). If this were true, then we would
expect that nearly all PS2 owners would own a copy of GT3. But in
reality, the vast majority (roughly 85%) of PS2 owners do *not* own GT3.
Furthermore, PS2 sold strongly both before GT3 was launched, and after
it fell off of the top 10 sales charts. Finally, PS2 sales declined
during the month that GT3 was released in the states. Therefore, it's
safe to conclude that GT3 is not the sole reason for the PS2's success.
Chieh Cheng
> > > that GT2 is worth buying PS2 for.
> >
> > Absolutely, that was my original point. I think along the way, you
> > side-tracked.
>
> No, your original point was that GT3 was the reason why PS2 sold/sells
> well (your quote: "Personally, I think the reason PS2 sold and is
> selling so well is because of GT3."). If this were true, then we would
> expect that nearly all PS2 owners would own a copy of GT3. But in
> reality, the vast majority (roughly 85%) of PS2 owners do *not* own GT3.
> Furthermore, PS2 sold strongly both before GT3 was launched, and after
> it fell off of the top 10 sales charts. Finally, PS2 sales declined
> during the month that GT3 was released in the states. Therefore, it's
> safe to conclude that GT3 is not the sole reason for the PS2's success.
Yes, but that is because you failed to read my original analysis that
the quote "Personally, I think the reason PS2 sold and is selling so
well is
because of GT3. I just wrote about my analysis on why this is the case
earlier today here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlayStation3/message/8"
is based on.
The original point was that PS2 sold so well because GT3 is available
on it. And that GT3 attracted a whole group of middle aged players and
car ethustiasts that would have not been interested in the game
console in the first place. You took a blind statement out of context.
Please read the original point in the link.
Chieh
Chieh Cheng
> about the console market would even argue that the single most influential
> PS2 game on purchases was not GTA3.
Thanks for the information. But please put aside your arrogance, it is
unwarranted. As a matter of a fact, I am not a knowledgeable person in
the console market. I only bought PS2 and GT3 because of my interest
in cars and racing. I am sure there are many reading this group that
are also not knowledgeable in the console market. And I am
participating in this discussion because I am wondering if it is those
people like me that are contributing to the increased sales of the
PlayStation 2.
Chieh
Leon Dexter
Fine, fine. As a matter of fact, with the PS2 having the market penetration
that it does, and all genres of games covered pretty damn well, it is in
fact just about every type of gamer that is contributing to its outstanding
sales.
So yes, people like you are contributing. Racing is a popular genre, and
Gran Turismo is one of the most popular racing franchises, so they are
contributing substantially. But fans of other franchises and genres are
contributing even more. That was my point.
But, like I said, the single most important game contributing sales-wise to
the success of the PS2 is GTA3.
Steven Hurdle
> The point is you suggest that the Japanese games that don't get
> localized aren't of interest to anyone in North America. I'm simply
> pointing out that the interest exist.
I wasn't saying that they aren't of interest to anyone, just that
publishers apparently don't think they are otherwise someone would localise
them. Seems logical to me.
> Regardless of whether or not
> playing the game in the arcade translates into buying the game (which
> opens a whole new can of worms), I think this example amply
> demonstrates that the interest is there.
Why aren't publishers interested in bringing games like Tokyo Bus Driver
and the myriad dating sims to other markets, by and large, then?
> ok.. I'm calling your bluff.. let see some numbers ^_^'
You can't call a bluff if I was never bluffing. ;)
This is the best I've been able to dig up. I have no idea how reliable
these numbers are, mind...
FORMAT DESCRIPTION UNITS LTD 95-03
PSX ZOOP 22 585
PSX ZOBOOMAFOO: LEAPIN' 16 786
PSX ZERO DIVIDE 27 049
PSX YU-GI-OH! FORBIDDEN 911 044
PSX YU GI OH! PREMIUM ED 119 740
PSX YOU DON'T KNOW JACK 2 48 206
PSX YOU DON'T KNOW JACK 174 282
PSX X-MEN:MUTANT ACADMY 2 169 211
PSX XMEN:CHILDREN OF ATOM 44 604
PSX X-MEN: MUTANT ACADEMY 302 143
PSX XMEN VS STR FIGHTER 125 494
PSX XEVIOUS 3D/G+ 10 223
PSX XENOGEARS 238 138
PSX XENA:WARRIOR PRINCESS 235 053
PSX XCOM UFO DEFENSE 45 440
PSX X-BLADEZ INLINE SKATR 40 308
PSX X GAMES PRO BOARDER 144 596
PSX WWE: IN YOUR HOUSE 281 383
PSX WWE WARZONE 2 197 591
PSX WWE SMACKDOWN! 1 366 186
PSX WWE SMACKDOWN 2 1 560 440
PSX WWE ATTITUDE 989 101
PSX WWE ARCADE 312 925
PSX WU TANG SHAOLIN STYLE 212 120
PSX WRECKING CREW 37 994
PSX WORMS WORLD PARTY 95 742
PSX WORMS ARMAGEDDON 145 156
PSX WORMS 30 138
PSX WORLD SCARIEST CHASES 244 500
PSX WORLD NOT ENOUGH 007 537 864
PSX WORLD GOLF 11 221
PSX WORLD CUP GOLF 57 453
PSX WORLD CUP 98 106 598
PSX WOODY WOODPECK RACING 60 869
PSX WIPEOUT XL 120 057
PSX WIPEOUT 3 133 544
PSX WIPEOUT 221 230
PSX WINNIE POOH PRESCHOOL 57 647
PSX WINNIE POOH KNDRGRTN 71 009
PSX WING COMMANDER IV 39 245
PSX WING COMMANDER 3 74 781
PSX WILD THORNBERRY'S 89 049
PSX WILD ARMS 2 149 785
PSX WILD ARMS 214 573
PSX WILD 9 101 660
PSX WHO WANTS MILLIONAIRE 384 983
PSX WHO WANT MILLIONAIRE3 81 205
PSX WHEEL OF FORTUNE 2 195 469
PSX WHEEL OF FORTUNE 818 358
PSX WDL: WAR JETZ 14 276
PSX WDL: THUNDER TANKS 98 912
PSX WCW/NWO THUNDER 908 274
PSX WCW VS THE WORLD 943 041
PSX WCW NITRO 1 130 119
PSX WCW MAYHEM 550 817
PSX WCW BACKSTAGE ASSAULT 121 097
PSX WAYNE GRETZKY HCKY 98 20 195
PSX WARZONE 2100 52 292
PSX WARRIORS MIGHT&MAGIC 66 224
PSX WARPATH:JURASSIC PARK 109 908
PSX WARHAWK 215 698
PSX WARHAMMR: SHDW OF RAT 87 369
PSX WARCRAFT II:DARK SAGA 141 730
PSX WAR GODS 11 858
PSX WAR GAMES DEFCON 1 112 407
PSX W/DUAL SHOCK CNTRLR 5 630 096
PSX VS. 20 529
PSX VR SOCCER 45 859
PSX VR PRO PINBALL 150 602
PSX VR GOLF 76 940
PSX VR BASEBALL 99 41 339
PSX VR BASEBALL 97 61 690
PSX VMX RACING 129 193
PSX VIVA SOCCER 6 070
PSX VIRTUAL POOL 230 337
PSX VIRTUAL OPEN TENNIS 21 309
PSX VIRTUAL KASPAROV 12 530
PSX VIP 66 294
PSX VIGILANTE 8 2ND OFFNS 201 387
PSX VIGILANTE 8 551 936
PSX VIEWPOINT 34 377
PSX VEGAS GAMES 2000 55 647
PSX VANISHING POINT 52 403
PSX VANGUARD BANDITS 31 996
PSX VANDAL HEARTS 2 47 363
PSX VANDAL HEARTS 111 893
PSX VANARK 6 759
PSX VAMPIRE HUNTER D 62 743
PSX VALUE PACK VOL 4 6 541
PSX VALUE PACK VOL 2 7 438
PSX VALUE GAME 9.99 34 658
PSX VALUE GAME 19.99 5 341
PSX VALUE 3 PACK 5 848
PSX VALKYRIE PROFILE 61 201
PSX VAGRANT STORY 219 380
PSX URBAN CHAOS 47 453
PSX UPRISING X 33 562
PSX UNHOLY WAR 58 529
PSX UM JAMMER LAMMY 95 740
PSX ULTIMATE FIGHT CHAMP 122 327
PSX ULTIMATE 8 BALL 41 499
PSX TYCO R/C ASSAULT 58 497
PSX TWISTED METAL: BRAWL 153 823
PSX TWISTED METAL 4 930 962
PSX TWISTED METAL 3 1 139 211
PSX TWISTED METAL 2 1 743 961
PSX TWISTED METAL 1 086 149
PSX TV BUNDLE 827
PSX TURBO PROP RACING 64 625
PSX TUNNEL B1 41 462
PSX TRUE PINBALL 18 389
PSX TRIPLE PLAY BASEBALL 229 058
PSX TRIPLE PLAY 99 639 298
PSX TRIPLE PLAY 98 513 593
PSX TRIPLE PLAY 97 189 016
PSX TRIPLE PLAY 2001 454 534
PSX TRIPLE PLAY 2000 570 506
PSX TRICK'N SNOWBOARDER 10 172
PSX TREASURES OF THE DEEP 84 662
PSX TREASURE PLANET 42 723
PSX TRAP GUNNER 15 470
PSX TRANSFORMERS: BEAST 37 820
PSX TOY STORY RACER 74 056
PSX TOY STORY 2 763 322
PSX TOTAL ECLIPSE 56 741
PSX TORNEKO:THE LAST HOPE 14 446
PSX TOP SHOP 14 825
PSX TOP GUN 250 775
PSX TOONENSTEIN 25 081
PSX TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR4 211 887
PSX TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR3 953 058
PSX TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR2 2 628 911
PSX TONY HAWKS PRO SKATER 2 513 441
PSX TONKA SPACE STATION 125 623
PSX TOMORRW NEVER DIE 007 1 410 846
PSX TOMBA 2 90 841
PSX TOMBA 114 240
PSX TOMB RAIDER3 W/CONTRL 8 098
PSX TOMB RAIDER:REVELATON 906 475
PSX TOMB RAIDER COLL ED 18 082
PSX TOMB RAIDER CHRONICLE 301 287
PSX TOMB RAIDER 3 1 298 364
PSX TOMB RAIDER 2 1 782 076
PSX TOMB RAIDER 1 872 640
PSX TOM&JERRY: HOUSE TRAP 113 757
PSX TOKYO HIGHWAY BATTLE 50 841
PSX TOCA CHAMPIONSHIP 59 997
PSX TOCA 2 CAR CHALLENGE 19 559
PSX TOBAL NO. 1 99 183
PSX TNN MOTORSPORTS 65 587
PSX TNN HARDCORE 4X4 613 956
PSX TINY TOONS: PLUCKY 229 301
PSX TINY TOONS BEANSTALK 140 948
PSX TINY TANK 132 839
PSX TIME:TITAN W/ORN GUN 29 811
PSX TIME:TITAN W/GUNCON 27 658
PSX TIME CRISIS: TITAN 14 383
PSX TIME CRISIS W/GUNCON 314 344
PSX TIME COMMANDO 79 897
PSX TIGGER'S HONEY HUNT 161 015
PSX TIGER WOODS PGA 2001 175 449
PSX TIGER WOODS PGA 2000 213 860
PSX TIGER WOODS 99 604 403
PSX TIGER SHARK 30 902
PSX THUNDERSTRIKE II 87 552
PSX THUNDER TRUCK RALLY 65 476
PSX THUNDER FORCE V 23 020
PSX THREADS OF FATE 102 857
PSX THRASHER:SKATE&DSTROY 179 494
PSX THOUSAND ARMS 53 961
PSX THOMAS BIG HURT BSBL 67 171
PSX THEME PARK 198 295
PSX THEME HOSPITAL 21 692
PSX THE X-FILES 180 972
PSX THE WEAKEST LINK 64 146
PSX THE SMURFS 19 517
PSX THE ROAD TO EL DORADO 32 196
PSX THE NEXT TETRIS 329 055
PSX THE MUMMY 79 590
PSX THE LOST WORLD JP 469 340
PSX THE ITALIAN JOB 169 349
PSX THE HIVE 5 244
PSX THE GRINCH 243 844
PSX THE GAME OF LIFE 376 005
PSX THE CROW CITY ANGELS 8 826
PSX THE BOMBING ISLANDS 82 991
PSX TETRIS PLUS 1 534 029
PSX TEST DRIVE:OFF ROAD 3 179 493
PSX TEST DRIVE:OFF ROAD 2 259 419
PSX TEST DRIVE: OFF ROAD 540 996
PSX TEST DRIVE RALLY 27 438
PSX TEST DRIVE LE MANS 25 232
PSX TEST DRIVE 6 315 636
PSX TEST DRIVE 5 914 011
PSX TEST DRIVE 4 547 199
PSX TENNIS ARENA 13 898
PSX TENNIS 74 231
PSX TENCHU 2: BIRTH 263 016
PSX TENCHU 730 675
PSX TEN PIN ALLEY 309 178
PSX TEMPEST X 36 579
PSX TEKKEN 3 2 681 372
PSX TEKKEN 2 1 753 966
PSX TEKKEN 786 556
PSX TECMOS DECEPTION 31 992
PSX TECMO SUPER BOWL 59 024
PSX TECMO STACKERS 85 892
PSX TEAM LOSI RC RACER 28 779
PSX TEAM BUDDIES 6 940
PSX TARZAN 601 284
PSX TALES OF DESTINY II 56 864
PSX TALES OF DESTINY 68 614
PSX TAIL OF THE SUN 8 258
PSX TAIL CONCERTO 16 383
PSX T'AI FU 67 451
PSX TACTICS OGRE 34 355
PSX T.R.A.G.:MISSION MRCY 64 511
PSX T.CLANCYS ROGUE SPEAR 137 846
PSX T.CLANCYS RAINBOW SIX 818 231
PSX SYPHON FILTER 3 368 776
PSX SYPHON FILTER 2 1 151 522
PSX SYPHON FILTER 1 545 974
PSX SYNDICATE WARS 18 112
PSX SYDNEY 2000 125 161
PSX SWAGMAN 24 570
PSX SW THE PHANTOM MENACE 577 258
PSX SW REBEL ASSAULT II 456 452
PSX SW MASTERS TERAS KASI 310 924
PSX SW EPISODE 1: JEDI 570 543
PSX SW DARK FORCES 254 629
PSX SURF RIDERS 59 850
PSX SUPR PUZL FIGHTER II 63 528
PSX SUPERCROSS CIRCUIT 206 808
PSX SUPERCROSS 2001 154 956
PSX SUPERCROSS 2000 304 542
PSX SUPERBIKE 2000 124 126
PSX SUPERBIKE 2 30 190
PSX SUPER SHOT SOCCER 20 840
PSX SUPER SF 2 COLLECTION 96 641
PSX SUPER BUBBLE POP 544
PSX SUIKODEN 2 91 773
PSX SUIKODEN 171 846
PSX STUART LITTLE 2 165 219
PSX STRIKER PRO 2000 20 792
PSX STRIKER 1945 99 925
PSX STRIKER 37 062
PSX STRIKE POINT 30 928
PSX STRIDER 2 38 188
PSX STREET SK8TER 2 151 124
PSX STREET SK8ER 298 702
PSX STREET RACQUETBALL 221
PSX STREET RACER 69 292
PSX STREET FIGHTR EX PLUS 233 249
PSX STREET FIGHTR ALPHA 3 351 447
PSX STREET FIGHTR ALPHA 2 116 319
PSX STREET FIGHTER EX2 81 125
PSX STREAK 69 853
PSX STEEL REIGN 65 407
PSX STEEL HARBINGER 56 625
PSX STARWINDER 28 164
PSX STARBLADE ALPHA 388
PSX STAR WARS: DEMOLITION 224 666
PSX STAR TREK: INVASION 121 022
PSX STAR OCEAN:SECND STRY 214 179
PSX STAR GLADIATOR 63 093
PSX STAR FIGHTER 30 071
PSX ST FIGHTER THE MOVIE 83 338
PSX ST FIGHTER ALPHA 143 809
PSX SPYRO: YEAR OF DRAGON 1 383 771
PSX SPYRO THE DRAGON 2 726 288
PSX SPYRO DRAGON 2: RAGE 1 710 721
PSX SPYRO COLLECTOR'S ED 147 155
PSX SPOT GOES HOLLYWOOD 34 673
PSX SPORTS VALUE 115 306
PSX SPORTS CAR GT 100 504
PSX SPONGEBOB SUPERSPONGE 998 387
PSX SPIN JAM 145 229
PSX SPIDERMAN 2: ELECTRO 451 040
PSX SPIDER-MAN 1 455 792
PSX SPIDER 66 559
PSX SPICE WORLD 295 700
PSX SPEEDBALL 2100 115 094
PSX SPEED RACER 28 277
PSX SPEED PUNKS 92 241
PSX SPEC OPS:RANGER ELITE 526 722
PSX SPEC OPS:COVERT ASSLT 360 792
PSX SPEC OPS: AIRBORNE 95 873
PSX SPEC OPS 1 263 027
PSX SPAWN: THE ETERNAL 111 374
PSX SPACE JAM 418 788
PSX SPACE INVADERS 234 706
PSX SPACE HULK: VENGEANCE 32 857
PSX SPACE GRIFFON 20 155
PSX SOVIET STRIKE 578 446
PSX SOUTH PARK RALLY 148 479
PSX SOUTH PARK CHEF SHACK 135 702
PSX SOUTH PARK 246 092
PSX SOUL OF THE SAMURAI 35 235
PSX SOUL BLADE 514 355
PSX SNOWBOARDING 222 691
PSX SNO-CROSS CHMP RACING 549 630
PSX SMURF RACER 123 474
PSX SMALL SOLDIERS 264 885
PSX SLED STORM 668 801
PSX SLAMSCAPE 21 197
PSX SLAM N JAM 96 38 800
PSX SKY DIVING EXTREME 54 707
PSX SKULLMONKEYS 55 433
PSX SKELETON WARRIORS 36 542
PSX SIMPSON'S WRESTLING 196 286
PSX SIM THEME PARK 305 167
PSX SIM CITY 2000 555 374
PSX SILVERLOAD 11 989
PSX SILHOUETTE MIRAGE 22 139
PSX SILENT HILL 585 666
PSX SILENT BOMBER 9 222
PSX SHREK: TREASURE HUNT 136 161
PSX SHOOTER:SPACE SHOT 3 280
PSX SHOOTER STARFIGHTER 12 941
PSX SHOCKWAVE ASSAULT 44 748
PSX SHIPWRECKERS! 35 759
PSX SHELLSHOCK 47 925
PSX SHEEP RAIDER 69 282
PSX SHEEP 40 557
PSX SHANGHAI TRUE VALOR 12 126
PSX SHADOW TOWER 10 976
PSX SHADOW MASTER 42 083
PSX SHADOW MAN 109 380
PSX SHADOW MADNESS 83 718
PSX SF 2 COLLECTION VOL2 29 823
PSX SESAME STREET SPORTS 41 062
PSX SENTINEL RETURNS 9 376
PSX SENTIENT 9 402
PSX SCRABBLE 118 855
PSX SCOOBY DOO & CYBER 511 942
PSX SAN FRANCISCO RUSH 168 681
PSX SAMURAI SHOWDOWN RAGE 4 840
PSX SAMURAI SHODOWN III 39 199
PSX SAMPLER 70 608
PSX SALTWATER SPORTFISHNG 218 296
PSX SAIYUKI: JOURNEY WEST 26 320
PSX SAGA FRONTIER II 88 836
PSX SAGA FRONTIER 117 898
PSX SABRINA: TWITCH 56 493
PSX S.SOSA SOFTBALL SLAM 78 752
PSX S.C.A.R.S. 37 064
PSX RUSHDOWN 56 186
PSX RUSH HOUR 12 892
PSX RUNNING WILD 41 227
PSX RUNABOUT 2 14 108
PSX RUGRATS: STUDIO TOUR 415 991
PSX RUGRATS: SEARCH REPTAR 1 456 265
PSX RUGRATS TOTALLY ANGEL 61 222
PSX RUGRATS IN PARIS 424 399
PSX R-TYPES 28 868
PSX R-TYPE DELTA 11 608
PSX RPG MAKER 109 036
PSX ROSWELL CONSPIRACIES 24 342
PSX ROMANCE 3 KINGDOMS VI 21 544
PSX ROMANCE 3 KINGDOMS IV 45 191
PSX ROLLCAGE STAGE II 43 398
PSX ROLLCAGE 89 343
PSX ROLL AWAY 33 247
PSX ROGUE TRIP 171 243
PSX ROCKET POWER: TEAM 674 714
PSX ROCK RAIDERS 59 824
PSX ROCK EM' SOCK 'EM 24 170
PSX ROBOTRON X 37 719
PSX ROBO PIT 14 309
PSX ROADSTERS 13 293
PSX ROAD RASH JAILBREAK 169 738
PSX ROAD RASH 3D 815 789
PSX ROAD RASH 607 464
PSX RIVEN:SEQUEL TO MYST 140 024
PSX RIVAL SCHOOLS 100 791
PSX RISK 126 403
PSX RISING ZAN: GUNMAN 8 274
PSX RISE OF ROBOTS 2 36 141
PSX RIDGE RACER4 W/JOGCON 17 220
PSX RIDGE RACER TYPE 4 297 564
PSX RIDGE RACER REVOLUTN 150 293
PSX RIDGE RACER 548 464
PSX RHAPSODY: MUSICAL 16 627
PSX REVOLUTION X 49 262
PSX RE-VOLT 2: RC REVENGE 77 057
PSX RE-VOLT 72 967
PSX REVELATIONS: PERSONA 37 947
PSX RETURN FIRE 44 946
PSX RESIDNT EVIL2 (DL SH) 455 018
PSX RESIDENT EVIL SURVIVR 195 277
PSX RESIDENT EVIL DIR CUT 1 425 919
PSX RESIDENT EVIL 3:NEMES 1 043 262
PSX RESIDENT EVIL 2 1 288 631
PSX RESIDENT EVIL 458 919
PSX RESCUE COPTER 2 348
PSX RENEGADE RACERS 12 446
PSX RE-LOADED 77 791
PSX REEL FISHING II 86 054
PSX REEL FISHING COMBO 55 860
PSX REEL FISHING 817 045
PSX RED ASPHALT 35 412
PSX REBOOT 43 274
PSX READY2 RUMBLE BOXING2 246 210
PSX READY 2 RUMBLE BOXING 562 539
PSX RC STUNT COPTER 36 794
PSX RC HELICOPTER 48 513
PSX RC DE GO 1 323
PSX RAZOR RACING 156 385
PSX RAZOR FREESTYLE SCOOT 216 469
PSX RAYSTORM 31 357
PSX RAYMAN: BRAIN GAMES 158 349
PSX RAYMAN SAMPLER 14 487
PSX RAYMAN RUSH 143 663
PSX RAYMAN 2 166 369
PSX RAYMAN 1 357 214
PSX RAY TRACERS 27 864
PSX RAY CRISIS 14 916
PSX RAT ATTACK 20 849
PSX RASCAL 182 906
PSX RAMPAGE WORLD TOUR 384 354
PSX RAMPAGE THROUGH TIME 30 139
PSX RAMPAGE 2:UNVRSL TOUR 105 538
PSX RALLY CROSS 2 154 228
PSX RALLY CROSS 150 326
PSX RAINBOW SIX:LONE WOLF 107 482
PSX RAILROAD TYCOON 2 49 776
PSX RAIDEN PROJECT 48 579
PSX RAGEBALL 2 788
PSX RAGE RACER 130 758
PSX RACING VALUE 94 367
PSX RACING 96 616
PSX QUAKE II 172 572
PSX Q-BERT 365 882
PSX PWR PLAY SPORT TRIVIA 19 418
PSX PUZZLE: STAR SWEEP 8 729
PSX PUTTER GOLF 98 078
PSX PUNKY SKUNK 14 672
PSX PSYCHIC FORCE 6 439
PSX PSYCHIC DETECTIVE 5 109
PSX PSYBADEK 30 153
PSX PROJECT: HORNED OWL 25 659
PSX PROJECT OVERKILL 115 706
PSX PRO PINBALL TIMESHOCK 12 019
PSX PRO PINBALL FANTASTIC 218 024
PSX PRO PINBALL BIG RACE 352 364
PSX PRO 18: WORLD GOLF 37 473
PSX PRIMAL RAGE 54 883
PSX PR ZEO PINBALL 19 373
PSX POY POY 12 302
PSX POWERSPIKE VOLLEYBALL 24 688
PSX POWERSLAVE 15 407
PSX POWERPUFF: CHEMICAL 308 492
PSX POWERBOAT RACING 104 195
PSX POWER SHOVEL 40 736
PSX POWER SERVE TENNIS 29 989
PSX POWER RANGERS: TIME 252 914
PSX POWER RANGERS LGHTSPD 181 255
PSX POWER MOVE WRESTLING 128 463
PSX PORSCHE CHALLENGE 41 672
PSX POPULOUS: BEGINNING 43 621
PSX POOL HUSTLER 50 250
PSX POOH'S PARTY GAME 61 038
PSX PONG 449 231
PSX POLARIS SNOCROSS 86 100
PSX POINT BLNK3 W/ORN GUN 6 229
PSX POINT BLANK W/GUNCON 40 112
PSX POINT BLANK 3 W/GUNCN 13 885
PSX POINT BLANK 3 6 652
PSX POINT BLANK 2 W/GNCN 18 354
PSX POINT BLANK 2 12 836
PSX PO'ED 18 561
PSX POCKET FIGHTER 43 530
PSX PLAY W/TELETUBBIES 54 519
PSX PLANET OF THE APES 24 311
PSX PITFALL 3D 143 395
PSX PITBALL 17 264
PSX PIPE DREAMS 3D 122 272
PSX PHILOSOMA 24 543
PSX PGA TOUR 98 358 319
PSX PGA TOUR 97 136 865
PSX PGA 96 GOLF TOUR 113 761
PSX PETER PAN: NEVERLAND 77 938
PSX PERSONA 2 24 870
PSX PERFECT WEAPON 106 869
PSX PEAK PERFORMANCE 14 388
PSX PARASITE EVE II 267 230
PSX PARASITE EVE 749 436
PSX PARAPPA THE RAPPER 214 398
PSX PANZER GENERAL 114 166
PSX PANZER FRONT 60 348
PSX PANDEMONIUM 2 29 797
PSX PANDEMONIUM 29 184
PSX PANDEMONIUM 71 030
PSX PAJAMA SAM: EAT 40 210
PSX PAC-MAN WORLD 1 072 937
PSX OVERBLOOD 44 197
PSX ONE PIECE MANSION 12 656
PSX ONE 138 211
PSX OMEGA BOOST 94 007
PSX OLYMPIC SUMMER GAMES 48 456
PSX OLYMPIC SOCCER 25 657
PSX OGRE BATTLE 48 844
PSX OFF WORLD INTERCEPTOR 79 251
PSX ODDWORLD:ABES ODDYSEE 641 797
PSX ODDWORLD:ABES EXODDUS 443 126
PSX O.D.T. 55 563
PSX NUCLEAR STRIKE 569 462
PSX NOVASTORM 19 680
PSX NORSE BY NORSEWEST 30 399
PSX NO FEAR MOUNTAIN BIKE 45 127
PSX NINJA: SHADOW OF DARK 169 141
PSX NIGHTMARE CREATURES 2 68 634
PSX NIGHTMARE CREATURES 290 509
PSX NICKTOONS RACING 135 875
PSX NHL ROCK THE RINK 129 129
PSX NHL POWERPLAY 98 25 368
PSX NHL POWERPLAY 96 55 032
PSX NHL OPEN ICE 34 263
PSX NHL FACEOFF 99 188 780
PSX NHL FACEOFF 98 230 145
PSX NHL FACEOFF 2001 111 147
PSX NHL FACEOFF 2000 122 835
PSX NHL FACE OFF 97 219 074
PSX NHL FACE OFF 213 851
PSX NHL CHAMPIONSHIP 2000 87 627
PSX NHL BREAKAWAY 98 61 678
PSX NHL BLADES STEEL 2000 18 489
PSX NHL 99 470 445
PSX NHL 98 421 054
PSX NHL 97 224 926
PSX NHL 2001 292 084
PSX NHL 2000 365 524
PSX NGEN RACING 32 783
PSX NFL XTREME 2 180 444
PSX NFL XTREME 299 505
PSX NFL QB CLUB 97 107 753
PSX NFL QB CLUB 96 354
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 99 1 127 379
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 98 1 311 955
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 97 417 271
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 2003 92 360
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 2002 211 674
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 2001 435 929
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 2000 798 601
PSX NFL GAMEDAY 405 829
PSX NFL FOOTBALL 22 816
PSX NFL BLITZ 2001 271 935
PSX NFL BLITZ 2000 480 854
PSX NFL BLITZ 1 101 246
PSX NEWMAN/HAAS RACING 61 089
PSX NEED SPEED:V-RALLY 2 158 409
PSX NEED SPEED:PORSCHE 326 622
PSX NEED FOR SPEED:STAKES 1 205 784
PSX NEED FOR SPEED III 1 689 910
PSX NEED FOR SPEED II 494 724
PSX NEED FOR SPEED 471 393
PSX NEED FOR SPD V-RALLY 349 650
PSX NECTARIS:MILITARY MAD 13 671
PSX NCAA GAMEBREAKER 2001 148 319
PSX NCAA GAMEBREAKER 2000 176 317
PSX NCAA GAMEBREAKER 99 198 321
PSX NCAA FTBALL GAMEBREAK 126 906
PSX NCAA FOOTBALL 99 433 293
PSX NCAA FOOTBALL 98 327 223
PSX NCAA FOOTBALL 2001 305 078
PSX NCAA FOOTBALL 2000 422 844
PSX NCAA FINAL FOUR 99 172 260
PSX NCAA FINAL FOUR 97 65 305
PSX NCAA FINAL FOUR 2001 80 844
PSX NCAA FINAL FOUR 2000 157 613
PSX NCAA FB GMBKRS 98 159 393
PSX NBA SHOWTIME: ON NBC 237 815
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 98 337 275
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 97 293 578
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 2003 35 678
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 2002 91 845
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 2001 130 801
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 2000 144 406
PSX NBA SHOOTOUT 155 081
PSX NBA LIVE 99 892 871
PSX NBA LIVE 98 1 158 467
PSX NBA LIVE 97 483 743
PSX NBA LIVE 96 140 015
PSX NBA LIVE 2003 86 955
PSX NBA LIVE 2002 308 637
PSX NBA LIVE 2001 578 127
PSX NBA LIVE 2000 1 005 225
PSX NBA JAM TRNMT EDT 118 366
PSX NBA JAM EXTREME 102 289
PSX NBA IN THE ZONE 99 52 650
PSX NBA IN THE ZONE 98 74 654
PSX NBA IN THE ZONE 2000 28 664
PSX NBA IN THE ZONE 2 103 760
PSX NBA IN THE ZONE 135 563
PSX NBA HOOPZ 66 833
PSX NBA HANGTIME 27 870
PSX NBA FASTBREAK 98 65 926
PSX NBA BASKETBALL 2000 213 883
PSX NASCAR THUNDER 2003 91 260
PSX NASCAR THUNDER 2002 239 363
PSX NASCAR RUMBLE 223 902
PSX NASCAR RACING 188 225
PSX NASCAR HEAT 192 675
PSX NASCAR 99 1 144 517
PSX NASCAR 98 1 162 871
PSX NASCAR 50TH ANNIV 3 049
PSX NASCAR 2001 372 509
PSX NASCAR 2000 667 427
PSX NANOTEK WARRIOR 12 132
PSX NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 5 12 420
PSX NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 4 13 571
PSX NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 3 1 931 548
PSX NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 2 28 830
PSX NAMCO MUSEUM VOL 1 1 647 490
PSX NAGANO WINTER OLYMPIC 57 279
PSX N20: NITROUS OXIDE 70 195
PSX MYST 64 966
PSX MY DISNEY KITCHEN 69 731
PSX MUPPET RACE MANIA 77 064
PSX MUPPET MONSTER ADV. 24 294
PSX MTV SPORTS:TJ LAVIN'S 72 486
PSX MTV SPORTS: PURE RIDE 59 231
PSX MTV SNOWBOARDING 66 282
PSX MTV SKATEBOARDING 72 063
PSX MTV MUSIC GENERATOR 185 123
PSX MS. PAC-MAN MAZE MAD 212 292
PSX MR. DRILLER 17 735
PSX MR DOMINO 34 987
PSX MOTORHEAD 14 088
PSX MOTOR TOON GRAND PRIX 25 183
PSX MOTOCROSS MANIA 641 479
PSX MOTO RACER WORLD TOUR 192 610
PSX MOTO RACER 2 306 501
PSX MOTO RACER 360 840
PSX MORTAL KOMBAT III 250 287
PSX MORTAL KOMBAT 4 642 531
PSX MORT THE CHICKEN 43 886
PSX MONSTERS, INC 375 061
PSX MONSTER SEED 27 278
PSX MONSTER RANCHR C.G. 2 35 524
PSX MONSTER RANCHER HOP 17 077
PSX MONSTER RANCHER 2 186 935
PSX MONSTER RANCHER 85 433
PSX MONSTER BASS! 8 636
PSX MONOPOLY/SCRABBLE 66 640
PSX MONOPOLY 1 024 807
PSX MONKEY MAGIC 51 490
PSX MONKEY HERO 35 021
PSX MONACO GRAND PRIX 18 331
PSX MOBILE ARMOR 14 034
PSX MOBIL1 RALLY CHAMPION 49 417
PSX MLBPA BOTTOM OF 9TH 68 076
PSX MLB PENNANT RACE 137 744
PSX MLB 99 372 184
PSX MLB 98 163 722
PSX MLB 2003 118 053
PSX MLB 2002 219 015
PSX MLB 2001 309 409
PSX MLB 2000 422 449
PSX MK TRILOGY 1 380 096
PSX MK SPECIAL FORCES 82 064
PSX MK MYTHOLOGY:SUB-ZERO 312 170
PSX MK & ASHLEY WINNER'S 82 896
PSX MK & ASHLEY MAGICAL 311 104
PSX MK & ASHLEY CRUSH 77 058
PSX MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 214 653
PSX MISSILE COMMAND 223 294
PSX MISS SPIDER 28 289
PSX MISADVENT TRON BONNE 22 269
PSX MIKE TYSON BOXING 68 105
PSX MICRO MANIACS 58 649
PSX MICRO MACHINES V3 43 509
PSX METAL SLUG X 69 035
PSX METAL GEAR:VR MISSION 467 862
PSX METAL GEAR SOLID 2 435 785
PSX MEN IN BLACK 68 474
PSX MEGA MAN X6 192 201
PSX MEGA MAN X5 303 362
PSX MEGA MAN X4 430 524
PSX MEGA MAN LEGENDS 2 155 580
PSX MEGA MAN LEGENDS 322 234
PSX MEGA MAN 8 362 095
PSX MEDIEVIL 2 154 839
PSX MEDIEVIL 363 999
PSX MEDAL OF HONOR 1 244 866
PSX MEDAL HONOR UNDERGRND 551 592
PSX MECHWARRIOR 2 165 299
PSX MDK 87 251
PSX MCQUEEN FIRE FIGHTER 42 564
PSX MCGRATH VS PASTRANA 122 975
PSX MCGRATH SPRCROSS 2000 124 180
PSX MAXIMUM FORCE 50 052
PSX MAT HOFFMANS PRO BMX 303 524
PSX MASTER OF MONSTERS 13 337
PSX MASS DESTRUCTION 49 421
PSX MARVEL VS. CAPCOM 262 347
PSX MARVEL VS ST FIGHTER 119 896
PSX MARVEL SUPER HERO 157 313
PSX MARTIAN GOTHIC 68 397
PSX MARCH MADNESS 99 328 455
PSX MARCH MADNESS 98 235 925
PSX MARCH MADNESS 2001 203 361
PSX MARCH MADNESS 2000 279 751
PSX MARBLE MASTER 1 737
PSX MAGIC!GTHR-BATTLEMAGE 56 248
PSX MAGIC CARPET 22 835
PSX MADDEN NFL 98 1 082 971
PSX MADDEN NFL 2003 184 074
PSX MADDEN NFL 2002 702 469
PSX MADDEN NFL 2001 1 210 246
PSX MADDEN NFL 2000 1 281 621
PSX MADDEN 99 1 299 038
PSX MADDEN 97 645 488
PSX MACHINE HUNTER 42 921
PSX MACHINE HEAD 32 652
PSX M&M'S SHELL SHOCKED 35 099
PSX LUNAR: SILVER STAR 222 763
PSX LUNAR 2:ETERNAL BLUE 169 420
PSX LUCKY LUKE 107 934
PSX LOONEY TUNES RACING 133 816
PSX LODE RUNNER 14 919
PSX LOADED 231 800
PSX LITTLE MERMAID II 124 493
PSX LION KING:SIMBA'S 75 542
PSX LETHAL ENFORCERS 1&2 16 816
PSX LEMMINGS(2 GAME BNDL) 37 659
PSX LEMMINGS 3D 28 740
PSX LEGO RACERS 142 145
PSX LEGO ISLAND 2 95 905
PSX LEGEND OF MANA 155 354
PSX LEGEND OF LEGAIA 297 878
PSX LEGEND OF DRAGOON 820 959
PSX LEGACY KAIN:SOUL REVR 474 870
PSX LEAGUE OF PAIN 11 262
PSX LARGO WINCH 34 648
PSX LAND B4 TIME: WATER 24 323
PSX LAND B4 TIME: RETURN 144 770
PSX LAND B4 TIME: RACING 89 294
PSX KRAZY IVAN 37 320
PSX KOUDELKA 40 747
PSX KONAMI ARCADE CLASSIC 17 535
PSX KNOCKOUT KINGS 2001 192 214
PSX KNOCKOUT KINGS 2000 736 082
PSX KNOCKOUT KINGS 847 675
PSX KLONOA 25 851
PSX KISS PINBALL 203 212
PSX KINGSLEY'S ADVENTURE 33 460
PSX KINGS FIELD II 70 775
PSX KINGS FIELD 78 689
PSX KING OF FIGHTERS 99 280 661
PSX KING OF FIGHTERS 39 971
PSX KILLING ZONE 27 760
PSX KILLER LOOP 28 638
PSX KILEAK DNA IMPERATIVE 72 859
PSX KICKBOXING 28 362
PSX KENSEI:SACRED FIST 11 157
PSX KARTIA 39 217
PSX KAGERO DECEPTION 2 25 921
PSX K-1 REVENGE 32 164
PSX K-1 GRAND PRIX 6 476
PSX K-1 ARENA FIGHTERS 52 221
PSX JUPITER STRIKE 51 062
PSX JUNGLE BOOK: RHYTHM 50 534
PSX JUNGLE BOOK W/PAD 18 788
PSX JUMPSTART WILDLIFE 21 003
PSX JUMPING FLASH 2 42 170
PSX JUMPING FLASH 38 910
PSX JUGGERNAUT 8 715
PSX JUDGE DREDD 23 272
PSX JPLW SPECIAL EDITION 96 235
PSX JOJOS BIZARRE VENTURE 10 936
PSX JOHNNY BAZOOKATONE 23 280
PSX JJ'S VR FOOTBALL 98 26 659
PSX JIMMY WHITES CUEBALL2 85 054
PSX JET MOTO 3 247 034
PSX JET MOTO 2 1 145 974
PSX JET MOTO 1 102 162
PSX JERSEY DEVIL 98 145
PSX JEOPARDY! 2ND EDITION 151 663
PSX JEOPARDY 331 424
PSX JAMPACK, WINTER 99 503 335
PSX JAMPACK, WINTER 495 159
PSX JAMPACK, SUMMER 99 442 116
PSX JAMPACK WINTER 2001 34 026
PSX JAMPACK WINTER 2000 470 055
PSX JAMPACK VOL 2 256 311
PSX JAMPACK VOL 1 85 031
PSX JAMPACK SUMMER 2K 462 443
PSX JAMPACK FALL 2001 247 503
PSX JAMPACK 258 313
PSX JADE COCOON 122 432
PSX JACOBSEN GLD TEE GOLF 58 130
PSX J.MCGRATH SPRCROSS 98 804 709
PSX J. CHAN STUNTMASTER 76 387
PSX J&L STOCK CAR RACING 57 480
PSX ISS SOCCER PRO 98 18 769
PSX ISS 2000 PRO REVOLUT. 6 509
PSX IRRITATING STICK 7 736
PSX IRON SOLDIER 3 17 014
PSX IRON MAN X-O MANOWAR 38 201
PSX INVASION FROM BEYOND 39 387
PSX INTL TRACK&FIELD 2000 25 161
PSX INTELLIVISION CLASSIC 140 129
PSX INTELLIGENT QUBE 103 288
PSX INT TRACK & FIELD 63 888
PSX INSPECTOR GADGET 43 980
PSX INDEPENDENCE DAY 202 187
PSX INCREDIBLE HULK 70 216
PSX INCREDIBLE CRISIS 37 975
PSX IN THE HUNT 28 504
PSX IN COLD BLOOD 13 798
PSX IMPACT RACING 26 741
PSX IHRA DRAG RACING 272 652
PSX HYDRO THUNDER 162 205
PSX HW: EXTREME RACING 113 156
PSX HOT WHEELS TRBO RACNG 420 442
PSX HOT SHOTS GOLF 2 158 482
PSX HOT SHOTS GOLF 229 511
PSX HOSHIGAMI: BLUE EARTH 33 231
PSX HOOTERS ROAD TRIP 43 292
PSX HOGS OF WAR 9 434
PSX HI-OCTANE 27 046
PSX HIGH HEAT BSBALL 2002 20 953
PSX HIGH HEAT BSBALL 2001 253 064
PSX HIGH HEAT BSBALL 2000 57 562
PSX HEXEN 49 529
PSX HERCULES 182 860
PSX HERCULES 1 900
PSX HERC'S ADVENTURES 17 898
PSX HELLO KITTY CUBE FRNZ 51 026
PSX HEART OF DARKNESS 127 982
PSX HBO BOXING 106 583
PSX HARVEST MOON: NATURE 115 390
PSX HARRY POTTER:SORCERER 1 087 093
PSX HARRY POTTER: CHAMBER 171 501
PSX HARDBALL 99 68 981
PSX HARDBALL 5 57 954
PSX GUNSHIP 123 919
PSX GUNFIGHTER: JESSE 156 703
PSX GUNDAM:BTTLE ASSAULT2 206 486
PSX GUNDAM:BATTLE ASSAULT 107 874
PSX GUILTY GEAR 27 710
PSX GUARDIAN'S CRUSADE 56 331
PSX GTA: LONDON ADD ON 48 375
PSX GTA: DIRECTOR'S CUT 109 140
PSX GRUDGE WARRIORS 192 030
PSX GRIND SESSION 181 932
PSX GRID RUNNER 13 575
PSX GRANSTREAM SAGA 62 663
PSX GRANDIA 101 990
PSX GRAND TOUR RACING 98 186 977
PSX GRAND THEFT AUTO:COLL 27 656
PSX GRAND THEFT AUTO 2 997 376
PSX GRAND THEFT AUTO 698 360
PSX GRAND SLAM 97 20 471
PSX GRAN TURISMO RACING 3 251 557
PSX GRAN TURISMO 2 3 056 883
PSX G-POLICE 108 901
PSX GOOFY'S FUN HOUSE 71 416
PSX GOLF THE FINAL ROUND 30 689
PSX GOLDEN NUGGET 178 801
PSX GOAL STORM 97 6 430
PSX GLOVER 77 470
PSX GHOST IN THE SHELL 44 911
PSX GH 3RD PTY FAM VALUE 211 509
PSX GH 3RD PARTY RACING 19 823
PSX GH 3 PTY ACT/ADV VALU 113 374
PSX GH 1ST PTY SPRT VALUE 700
PSX GH 19.99 6 052
PSX GEX: ENTER THE GECKO 255 696
PSX GEX 3 : DEEP COVER 232 644
PSX GEX 398 231
PSX GEOM CUBE 19 150
PSX GEKIDO 45 789
PSX GAUNTLET LEGENDS 189 708
PSX GALLOP RACER 34 213
PSX GALERIANS 68 436
PSX GALAGA 108 182
PSX G POLICE2:WPN JUSTICE 26 544
PSX G DARIUS 32 638
PSX FUTURE COP LAPD 2100 134 140
PSX FRONT MISSION 3 86 742
PSX FROGGER/QBERT 62 004
PSX FROGGER 2 669 359
PSX FROGGER 2 948 059
PSX FREE STYLE BOARDIN 99 23 076
PSX FP RESCUE HERO:MOLTEN 43 814
PSX FOX SPORTS SOCCER 99 30 934
PSX FOX SPORTS GOLF 99 62 845
PSX FOX HUNT 4 646
PSX FORSAKEN 107 026
PSX FORMULA 1:CHMPSHP EDT 52 339
PSX FORMULA 1: 98 39 850
PSX FORMULA 1 '99 30 357
PSX FORMULA 1 149 055
PSX FORD RACING 519 685
PSX FLOATING RUNNER 19 785
PSX FLINTSTONES BOWLING 60 824
PSX FISHERMAN'S BAIT 2 80 483
PSX FISHERMAN'S BAIT 135 730
PSX FINAL FANTASY VIII 1 903 889
PSX FINAL FANTASY VII 2 447 963
PSX FINAL FANTASY TACTICS 747 355
PSX FINAL FANTASY IX 1 327 964
PSX FINAL FANTASY CHRNCLS 261 086
PSX FINAL FANTASY ANTHLGY 363 546
PSX FINAL DOOM 128 701
PSX FIGHTING FORCE 2 232 508
PSX FIGHTING FORCE 596 404
PSX FIGHTER MAKER 44 795
PSX FIFTH ELEMENT 60 631
PSX FIFA:RTWC 98(SPANISH) 125 414
PSX FIFA: RTWC 98 4 153
PSX FIFA SOCCER 99 181 213
PSX FIFA SOCCER 97 75 028
PSX FIFA SOCCER 96 75 717
PSX FIFA SOCCER 2003 32 395
PSX FIFA SOCCER 2002 86 766
PSX FIFA SOCCER 2000 197 538
PSX FIFA 2001 153 235
PSX FELONY 11-79 50 382
PSX FEAR EFFECT 2: RETRO 93 245
PSX FEAR EFFECT 276 641
PSX FATAL FURY: AMBITION 24 244
PSX FANTASTIC FOUR 31 458
PSX FAMILY VALUE 192 314
PSX FAMILY GAME PACK 58 943
PSX FAMILY FEUD 143 652
PSX FAMILY CARD GAMES 20 938
PSX FADE TO BLACK 157 099
PSX F1 WRLD GRAND PRIX 99 36 784
PSX F1 WRLD GRAND PRIX 00 4 759
PSX F1 RACING CHAMPIONSHP 7 899
PSX F1 CHAMP. SEASON 2000 63 722
PSX F1 2000 99 310
PSX EXTREME PINBALL 147 460
PSX EXPENDABLE 23 175
PSX EXCALIBUR 2555 A.D. 13 617
PSX EVIL ZONE 121 615
PSX EVIL DEAD: HAIL KING 131 988
PSX ETERNAL EYES 111 452
PSX ESPN MLS GAME NIGHT 20 122
PSX EPIDEMIC 15 712
PSX ELMOS NUMBER JOURNEY 109 658
PSX ELMOS LETTER ADVENTRE 144 204
PSX ELIMINATOR 19 925
PSX ELEMENTAL GEARBOLT 24 310
PSX EINHANDER 75 292
PSX EIDOS COMPILATION #1 19 815
PSX EHRGEIZ 135 531
PSX EGGS OF STEEL 7 845
PSX ECW:HARDCORE REVLUTON 201 511
PSX ECW: ANARCHY RULZ 52 988
PSX ECHO NIGHT 22 923
PSX EAGLE ONE: HARRIER 43 850
PSX EA SPORTS PACK 65 723
PSX EA RACING PACK 38 300
PSX EA ACTION PACK 62 451
PSX E.T. INTERPLANETARY 43 099
PSX DYNASTY WARRIORS 69 537
PSX DUNE 2000 84 980
PSX DUKES OF HAZZARD II 172 345
PSX DUKES OF HAZZARD 765 834
PSX DUKE NUKEM:TOT MLTDWN 274 243
PSX DUKE NUKEM:TIME KILL 669 560
PSX DUKE NUKEM:LAND BABES 36 581
PSX DUCATI WORLD RACING 15 336
PSX D'S DINING TABLE 87 577
PSX DRIVER 2 2 036 246
PSX DRIVER 2 613 706
PSX DRAGONBALL GT 19 564
PSX DRAGON WARRIOR VII 177 147
PSX DRAGON VALOR 33 644
PSX DRAGON TALES: DRAGON 71 815
PSX DRAGON SEEDS 25 425
PSX DRAGNHRT FIRE & STEEL 15 097
PSX DRACULA: SANCTUARY 25 288
PSX DRACULA: RESURRECTION 39 635
PSX DOOM 357 095
PSX DONALD DUCK GOIN' 74 374
PSX DISRUPTOR 61 533
PSX DISNEY'S MULAN 71 280
PSX DISNEYS LILO & STITCH 142 912
PSX DISNEY'S EMPEROR'S 154 605
PSX DISNEY'S DINOSAUR 138 659
PSX DISNEY'S ATLANTIS 99 736
PSX DISNEY MAGICAL RACING 173 392
PSX DISNEY 102 DALMATIANS 295 556
PSX DISCWRLD 2:MRTLY BYTE 7 742
PSX DISCWORLD 30 725
PSX DINO CRISIS 2 164 933
PSX DINO CRISIS 613 113
PSX DIGIMON WORLD 3 258 621
PSX DIGIMON WORLD 2 195 935
PSX DIGIMON WORLD 484 340
PSX DIGIMON RUMBLE ARENA 240 848
PSX DIGIMON CARD BATTLE 56 323
PSX DIEHARD TRILOGY 694 872
PSX DIE HARD TRILOGY 49 077
PSX DIE HARD TRIL W/ GUN 36 801
PSX DIE HARD TRIL 2:VEGAS 145 775
PSX DIABLO 228 331
PSX DEXTERS LAB: MANDARKS 91 297
PSX DEVIL DICE 40 609
PSX DETECTIVE BARBIE 79 715
PSX DESTRUCTION DERBY RAW 64 384
PSX DESTRUCTION DERBY 2 539 232
PSX DESTRUCTION DERBY 420 831
PSX DESTREGA 30 627
PSX DESCENT MAXIMUM 43 427
PSX DESCENT 94 597
PSX DEMOLITION RACER 142 957
PSX DELTA FORCE:URBAN WAR 83 773
PSX DEFCON 5 32 027
PSX DECEPTION III:DELUSON 17 414
PSX DEATHTRAP DUNGEON 145 400
PSX DEAD OR ALIVE 73 770
PSX DEAD IN THE WATER 22 833
PSX DEAD BALL ZONE 17 945
PSX DAVID BECKHAM SOCCER 95 580
PSX DAVE MIRRA BMX REMIX 177 284
PSX DAVE MIRRA BMX 771 314
PSX DARKSTONE 345 758
PSX DARKSTALKERS 67 970
PSX DARKLIGHT CONFLICT 17 084
PSX DARK STALKERS 3 86 175
PSX DARK OMEN 16 723
PSX DARE DEVIL DERBY 3D 113 729
PSX DANGER GIRL 28 148
PSX DANCE DANCE REVOLUTN 104 008
PSX DANCE DANCE REV W/PAD 31 040
PSX DANCE DANCE KONAMIX 183 772
PSX D.D.R. DISNEY MIX 34 967
PSX D&D TOWER OF DOOM 86
PSX CYBERTIGER WOODS GOLF 259 494
PSX CYBERSPEED 47 034
PSX CYBERSLED 45 684
PSX CYBERIA 40 806
PSX CUBIX: RACE 'N ROBOTS 106 714
PSX CRYPT KILLER W/GUN 17 675
PSX CRUSADERS MIGHT&MAGIC 133 371
PSX CRUSADER: NO REMORSE 21 995
PSX CROSSROAD CRISIS 9 871
PSX CROC:LEGEND OF GOBBOS 98 570
PSX CROC:LEGEND OF GOBBOS 1 188 386
PSX CROC 2 293 874
PSX CRITICOM 59 533
PSX CRITICAL DEPTH 102 790
PSX CRIME KILLER 50 697
PSX CREATURES 63 601
PSX CRASH TEAM RACING 1 839 410
PSX CRASH COLLECTOR'S ED 136 238
PSX CRASH BASH 1 066 727
PSX CRASH BANDICOOT WARP 3 006 691
PSX CRASH BANDICOOT 2 3 100 190
PSX CRASH BANDICOOT 2 741 213
PSX COVERT OPS: NUCLEAR 108 977
PSX COURIER CRISIS 68 682
PSX COUNTDOWN VAMPIRES 17 748
PSX COOL BOARDERS 4 509 133
PSX COOL BOARDERS 3 1 246 978
PSX COOL BOARDERS 2001 198 607
PSX COOL BOARDERS 2 1 219 671
PSX COOL BOARDERS 83 529
PSX CONTRA: LEGACY OF WAR 303 857
PSX CONTENDER 2 198 715
PSX CONTENDER 246 334
PSX COMMAND & CONQUER 180 003
PSX COLONY WARS:VENGEANCE 100 605
PSX COLONY WARS 3 RED SUN 62 461
PSX COLONY WARS 190 749
PSX COLLEGE SLAM 90 109
PSX COLIN MCRAE RALLY 2 12 346
PSX COLIN MCRAE RALLY 63 148
PSX CODE NAME: TENKA 39 754
PSX CLOCK TOWER II 18 019
PSX CLOCK TOWER 57 104
PSX CIVILIZATION 2 127 063
PSX CITY OF LOST CHILDREN 3 923
PSX CIRCUIT BREAKERS 31 201
PSX CHRONO CROSS 575 733
PSX CHRONICLES OF SWORD 24 104
PSX CHOCOBO'S DUNGEON 2 36 159
PSX CHOCOBO RACING 58 779
PSX CHICKEN RUN 70 127
PSX CHESSMASTER 2 34 966
PSX CHESSMASTER 68 397
PSX CHESS 119 736
PSX CHAMPIONSHP MOTOCROSS 253 235
PSX CHAMPIONSHIP SURFER 32 859
PSX CHAMPIONSHIP BASS 129 336
PSX CHAMP MOTOCROSS 2K1 71 142
PSX CENTIPEDE 278 378
PSX CASTROL HONDA SPRBIKE 64 814
PSX CASTLEVANIA:SYMPHY NT 477 304
PSX CASTLEVANIA CHRONICLE 76 509
PSX CASPER:FRIENDS AROUND 139 414
PSX CASPER 372 433
PSX CART WORLD SERIES 137 280
PSX CARNAGE HEART 6 657
PSX CARDINAL SYN 65 190
PSX CARD GAMES 40 774
PSX CAPCOM VS SNK PRO 78 777
PSX CAESARS PALACE 2000 385 999
PSX CAESARS PALACE 2 105 146
PSX CAESARS PALACE 112 885
PSX CABELAS ULT DEER HUNT 78 380
PSX CABELAS BIG GAME HUNT 310 627
PSX C-12 FINAL RESISTANCE 29 379
PSX C&C RED ALERT 185 321
PSX C&C RA RETALIATION 311 411
PSX C - CONTRA ADVENTURE 28 778
PSX BUZZ LIGHTYEAR STAR 295 286
PSX BUSTER BROS. COLLECTN 33 862
PSX BUST A MOVE 99 109 079
PSX BUST A MOVE 4 127 295
PSX BUST A MOVE 2 91 196
PSX BUST A GROOVE 2 31 334
PSX BUST A GROOVE 73 304
PSX BUSHIDO BLADE 2 190 268
PSX BUSHIDO BLADE 324 083
PSX BURSTRICK WAKE BOARD 199 705
PSX BURNING ROAD 56 264
PSX BUILDERS BLOCKS 6 094
PSX BUGS BUNNY: LOST TIME 180 536
PSX BUGS BUNNY &TAZ TIME 97 051
PSX BUG RIDERS 10 537
PSX BUDGET ASSORTMENT 185 673
PSX BUBSY 3D 85 582
PSX BUBBLE BOBBLE 30 566
PSX BROKEN SWORD 2 25 915
PSX BROKEN SWORD 12 972
PSX BROKEN HELIX 26 363
PSX BRNSWK CIRCUT BOWLING 78 529
PSX BRNSWK CIRCT BOWLING2 34 208
PSX BRIGANDINE 40 918
PSX BREATH OF FIRE IV 93 880
PSX BREATH OF FIRE III 230 761
PSX BREAKOUT 51 637
PSX BRAVO AIR RACE 63 219
PSX BRAVE FENCER MUSASHI 198 715
PSX BRAINDEAD 13 10 397
PSX BRAHMA FORCE 13 543
PSX BOXING 90 390
PSX BOWLING 336 580
PSX BOTTOM OF THE 9TH 99 24 311
PSX BOTTOM OF THE 9TH 97 10 515
PSX BOOMBOTS 51 551
PSX BOND: 007 RACING 267 042
PSX BOMBRMAN FANTASY RACE 11 469
PSX BOMBERMAN WORLD 45 016
PSX BOMBERMAN PARTY ED 56 640
PSX BOGEY: DEAD 6 45 464
PSX BOB THE BUILDER 490 010
PSX BLUE'S CLUES MUSICAL 317 692
PSX BLOODY ROAR 2 217 200
PSX BLOODY ROAR 170 582
PSX BLD OMEN: LEGACY KAIN 204 888
PSX BLAZING DRAGONS 66 832
PSX BLASTO 153 577
PSX BLASTER MASTER: BLAST 167 026
PSX BLAST RADIUS 34 236
PSX BLAST LACROSSE 32 039
PSX BLAST CHAMBER 51 215
PSX BLADE 98 357
PSX BLACK DAWN 58 776
PSX BLACK BASS/BLU MARLIN 48 869
PSX BIO FREAKS 60 020
PSX BILLIARDS 283 231
PSX BIG OL' BASS 2 34 803
PSX BIG BASS WRLD CHMPSHP 164 830
PSX BIG BASS FISHING 78 472
PSX BIG AIR 87 597
PSX BEYOND THE BEYOND 96 618
PSX BEYBLADE 14 003
PSX BEAST WARS 48 766
PSX BEAR BLUE HOUSE:OJO'S 18 695
PSX BATTLESTATIONS 354 295
PSX BATTLESPORT 1 792
PSX BATTLE TANX2: ASSAULT 154 320
PSX BATTLE HUNTER 26 231
PSX BATTLE ARENA TOSH 3 50 952
PSX BATTLE ARENA TOSH 2 133 491
PSX BATMAN: GOTHAM RACER 27 785
PSX BATMAN FOREVER ARCADE 16 160
PSX BATMAN BEYOND 78 838
PSX BATMAN AND ROBIN 48 634
PSX BATL ARENA TOSHINDEN 327 412
PSX BASS RISE 24 629
PSX BASS LANDNG W/O CNTRL 26 848
PSX BASS LANDING W/CONTRL 172 300
PSX BASES LOADED DBL HDR 29 799
PSX BASEBALL 2000 26 649
PSX BARBIE SUPER SPORTS 104 021
PSX BARBIE RACE AND RIDE 260 473
PSX BARBIE EXPLORER 65 967
PSX BALLISTIC 19 314
PSX BALLBLAZER CHAMPIONS 10 030
PSX BALL BREAKERS 82 545
PSX BACKYARD SOCCER 99 587
PSX BACK STREET BILLIARDS 26 382
PSX AZURE DREAMS 59 429
PSX AUTO DESTRUCT 33 898
PSX AUSTIN POWERS PINBALL 58 682
PSX ATV QUAD POWER RACING 599 785
PSX A-TRAIN 18 245
PSX ATARIS GRTST HITS 380 469
PSX ATARI ANNIVERSARY ED 222 920
PSX ASTEROIDS 492 241
PSX ASSAULT: RETRIBUTION 55 413
PSX ASSAULT RIGS 21 738
PSX ARTHUR READY TO RACE 29 073
PSX ARMY MEN:TEAM ASSAULT 174 101
PSX ARMY MEN:GREEN ROGUE 33 705
PSX ARMY MEN: FINAL FRONT 38 562
PSX ARMY MEN WW LAND,SEA 142 028
PSX ARMY MEN WORLD WAR 157 728
PSX ARMY MEN SRGES HERO 2 115 906
PSX ARMY MEN SARGES HERO 209 802
PSX ARMY MEN GOLD COLL ED 103 881
PSX ARMY MEN AIR ATTACK 2 140 925
PSX ARMY MEN AIR ATTACK 365 785
PSX ARMY MEN 3D 870 546
PSX ARMORINES PROJ SWARM 38 113
PSX ARMORED CORE: ARENA 54 255
PSX ARMORED CORE 117 118
PSX ARMD COR 2 PRJ PNTSMA 50 878
PSX ARENA FOOTBALL 51 057
PSX AREA 51 331 395
PSX ARCADES GREATEST HITS 185 924
PSX ARCADE PARTY PACK 51 965
PSX ARCADE GRTST HITS IIM 102 585
PSX ARCADE GRTST HITS IIA 174 035
PSX ARC THE LAD COLLECTN 51 665
PSX AQUANAUTS HOLIDAY 10 215
PSX APOCALYPSE 197 640
PSX APE ESCAPE 623 941
PSX ANIMORPHS 31 328
PSX ANIMANIACS TEN PIN 85 350
PSX ANDRETTI RACING 363 774
PSX AMAZING SEA MONKEYS 919
PSX ALUNDRA 2 111 712
PSX ALUNDRA 99 127
PSX ALONE IN THE DARK 4 130 875
PSX ALONE IN DARK: JACKS 19 036
PSX ALLIED GENERAL 88 100
PSX ALL STAR SLAMN D-BALL 38 654
PSX ALL STAR RACING 51 674
PSX ALL STAR BASEBALL 15 065
PSX ALIEN TRILOGY CLASSIC 190 275
PSX ALIEN TRILOGY 111 804
PSX ALIEN RESURRECTION 79 630
PSX ALEXI LALAS SOCCER 32 543
PSX ALADDIN: NASIRA'S REV 66 690
PSX AKUJI : THE HEARTLESS 55 482
PSX AIR COMBAT 746 664
PSX AGILE WARRIOR 64 136
PSX ADVENTURES OF LOMAX 13 068
PSX ADIDAS PWR SOCCER 98 8 835
PSX ADIDAS POWER SOCCER 17 899
PSX AD&D IRON & BLOOD 67 310
PSX ACTIVISION CLASSICS 622 754
PSX ACTION/ADVNTURE VALUE 126 969
PSX ACTION MAN 42 130
PSX ACTION BASS 592 645
PSX ACES OF THE AIR 30 596
PSX ACE COMBAT 3 125 723
PSX ACE COMBAT 2 133 679
PSX A BUGS LIFE 1 495 485
PSX 6 PIECE ACTION PACK 9 873
PSX 40 WINKS 127 185
PSX 3XTREME 369 418
PSX 3RD PTY SPORT/EXTREME 7 906
PSX 3D SOCCER 13 493
PSX 3D BASEBALL 15 974
PSX 2XTREME 944 394
PSX 2002 FIFA WORLD CUP 39 897
PSX 2 PACK BUNDLE 29 909
PSX 1XTREME 294 312
N64 ZELDA: OCARINA TIME 3 543 388
N64 YOSHI'S STORY 1 105 117
N64 XENA:WARRIOR PRINCESS 189 661
N64 WWE WRESTLEMANIA 2000 998 632
N64 WWE WARZONE 904 010
N64 WWE NO MERCY 1 004 719
N64 WWE ATTITUDE 473 810
N64 WORMS ARMAGEDDON 18 723
N64 WORLD NOT ENOUGH 007 946 416
N64 WORLD DRIVER CHAMPION 109 159
N64 WORLD CUP 98 118 372
N64 WIPEOUT 64 234 004
N64 WINBACK: COVERT OPER 139 679
N64 WHEEL OF FORTUNE 161 716
N64 WETRIX 48 578
N64 WCW/NWO REVENGE 1 628 721
N64 WCW VS NWO:WRLD TOUR 1 139 096
N64 WCW NITRO 144 269
N64 WCW MAYHEM 532 559
N64 WCW BACKSTAGE ASSAULT 88 142
N64 WAYNE GRETZKY HCKY 98 193 565
N64 WAVE RACE 64 1 706 024
N64 WAR GODS 188 872
N64 WAIALAE COUNTRY GOLF 404 434
N64 V-RALLY 57 157
N64 VR POOL 59 630
N64 VIRTUAL CHESS 64 34 442
N64 VIGILANTE 8 2ND OFFNS 69 173
N64 VIGILANTE 8 209 604
N64 TWISTED EDGE SNOWBORD 133 597
N64 TV BUNDLE 492
N64 TUROK: RAGE WARS 248 346
N64 TUROK: DINOSAUR HUNTR 973 167
N64 TUROK 3: SHADOW 95 979
N64 TUROK 2:SEEDS OF EVIL 1 149 182
N64 TRIPLE PLAY 2000 224 275
N64 TRANSFORMERS: BEAST 4 329
N64 TOY STORY 2 597 773
N64 TOP GEAR RALLY 2 67 317
N64 TOP GEAR RALLY 270 634
N64 TOP GEAR OVERDRIVE 195 755
N64 TOP GEAR HYPER-BIKE 30 938
N64 TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR3 23 787
N64 TONY HAWKS PRO SKATR2 491 053
N64 TONY HAWKS PRO SKATER 1 406 132
N64 TONIC TROUBLE 77 110
N64 TOM&JERRY:FISTS FURRY 104 958
N64 TIGGER'S HONEY HUNT 133 068
N64 THE NEW TETRIS 185 243
N64 TETRISPHERE 242 387
N64 T.CLANCYS RAINBOW SIX 384 984
N64 SW: BATTLE NABOO 176 095
N64 SW ROGUE SQUADRON 1 380 864
N64 SW EPISODE 1: RACER 1 499 017
N64 SUPERMAN 270 965
N64 SUPERCROSS 2000 189 801
N64 SUPER SMASH BROTHERS 2 546 810
N64 SUPER MARIO 64 5 943 556
N64 SUPER BOWLING 64 9 654
N64 STARSHOT:SPACE CIRCUS 15 256
N64 STARCRAFT 64 102 526
N64 STAR WARS SHDW OF EMP 1 731 758
N64 STAR SOLDIER 39 183
N64 STAR FOX 64 W/RMBL PK 1 903 652
N64 STAR FOX 489 055
N64 SPIDER-MAN 355 125
N64 SPACE STN SILICON VAL 95 329
N64 SPACE INVADERS 106 305
N64 SOUTH PARK RALLY 130 783
N64 SOUTH PARK CHEF SHACK 155 478
N64 SOUTH PARK 747 133
N64 SNOWBOARD KIDS 2 71 465
N64 SNOWBOARD KIDS 129 450
N64 SHADOWGATE 64: TOWERS 46 184
N64 SHADOW MAN 151 481
N64 SCOOBY-DOO CL CAPERS 250 174
N64 SAN FRANCISCO RUSH 535 513
N64 S.C.A.R.S. 39 271
N64 RUSH 2049 134 063
N64 RUSH 2:EXTREME RACING 293 321
N64 RUGRATS:SCAVENGR HUNT 346 821
N64 RUGRATS IN PARIS 328 864
N64 ROCKET ROBOT ON WHEEL 82 477
N64 ROBOTRON 64 57 041
N64 ROADSTERS '99 42 687
N64 ROAD RASH 64 158 519
N64 RIDGE RACER 64 262 435
N64 RE-VOLT 113 297
N64 RESIDENT EVIL 2 326 397
N64 READY2 RUMBLE BOXING2 153 974
N64 READY 2 RUMBLE BOXING 391 789
N64 RAYMAN 2:GREAT ESCAPE 329 681
N64 RAT ATTACK 8 572
N64 RAMPAGE WORLD TOUR 296 197
N64 RAMPAGE 2:UNVRSL TOUR 151 014
N64 RALLY CHALLENGE 2000 19 479
N64 QUEST 64 319 174
N64 QUAKE II 201 048
N64 QUAKE 126 302
N64 POWERPUFF: CHEMICAL 98 879
N64 POWER RANGERS LGHTSPD 244 455
N64 POLARIS SNOCROSS 2001 37 978
N64 POKEMON STADIUM 2 876 823
N64 POKEMON STADIUM 2 501 915
N64 POKEMON SNAP 1 916 105
N64 POKEMON PUZZLE LEAGUE 298 275
N64 PILOTWINGS 64 485 832
N64 PIKACHU SYSTEM 50 398
N64 PGA EUROPEAN TOUR 2 840
N64 PERFECT DARK 1 297 490
N64 PENNY RACERS 32 552
N64 PAPERBOY 154 514
N64 PAPER MARIO 499 860
N64 OLYMPIC HOCKEY 98 31 643
N64 OGRE BATTLE 64 76 199
N64 OFF ROAD CHALLENGE 223 909
N64 NUCLEAR STRIKE 72 593
N64 NIGHTMARE CREATURES 174 456
N64 NHL BREAKAWAY 99 52 381
N64 NHL BREAKAWAY 98 246 538
N64 NHL BLADES OF STEEL99 37 387
N64 NHL 99 312 288
N64 NFL QTRBACK CLUB 99 494 567
N64 NFL QTRBACK CLUB 98 845 560
N64 NFL QTRBACK CLUB 2001 85 509
N64 NFL QTRBACK CLUB 2000 305 990
N64 NFL BLITZ 2001 283 420
N64 NFL BLITZ 2000 452 843
N64 NFL BLITZ 856 345
N64 NBA SHOWTIME: ON NBC 194 315
N64 NBA LIVE 2000 351 030
N64 NBA LIVE 99 377 442
N64 NBA JAM 99 205 767
N64 NBA JAM 2000 97 613
N64 NBA IN THE ZONE 99 26 977
N64 NBA IN THE ZONE 98 208 720
N64 NBA IN THE ZONE 2000 22 631
N64 NBA HANGTIME 400 911
N64 NBA COURTSDE:K.BRYANT 874 745
N64 NBA COURTSDE 2:BRYANT 161 508
N64 NASCAR 99 777 928
N64 NASCAR 2000 403 280
N64 NAMCO MUSEUM 64 1 040 093
N64 NAGANO WINTER OLYMPIC 123 873
N64 MYSTICAL NINJA 54 703
N64 MULTI RACING CHMPSHP 163 340
N64 MS. PAC-MAN MAZE MAD 149 645
N64 MORTAL KOMBAT 4 457 601
N64 MONSTER TRUCK MADNESS 201 341
N64 MONOPOLY 144 141
N64 MONACO GRAND PRIX 19 461
N64 MLB W/ KEN GRIFFEY JR 636 816
N64 MK TRILOGY 611 161
N64 MK MYTHOLOGY:SUB-ZERO 262 560
N64 MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 624 348
N64 MISCHIEF MAKERS 205 187
N64 MILOS ASTRO LANES 59 991
N64 MICRO MACHINES TURBO 89 225
N64 MICKEY'S SPEEDWAY USA 303 604
N64 MIA HAMM SOCCER 43 004
N64 MEGA MAN 64 127 488
N64 MCGRATH SPRCROSS 2000 190 032
N64 MARIO TENNIS 669 958
N64 MARIO PARTY 3 624 468
N64 MARIO PARTY 2 1 102 867
N64 MARIO PARTY 1 076 733
N64 MARIO KART 64 4 796 623
N64 MARIO GOLF 534 283
N64 MAGICAL TETRIS 116 997
N64 MADDEN NFL 99 705 077
N64 MADDEN NFL 2002 338 806
N64 MADDEN NFL 2001 503 257
N64 MADDEN NFL 2000 478 896
N64 MADDEN 98 684 940
N64 MACE: THE DARK AGE 122 534
N64 M.PIAZZA'S STRIKEZONE 37 964
N64 LOONEY TUNES: DUCK 16 912
N64 LODE RUNNER 3-D 63 261
N64 LEGO RACERS 423 276
N64 LEGEND ZELDA:MAJORA'S 1 632 897
N64 KNOCKOUT KINGS 2000 528 805
N64 KNIFE EDGE:NOSE GUNNR 49 202
N64 KIRBY 64: CRYSTAL 541 600
N64 KILLER INSTINCT GOLD 509 339
N64 JET FORCE GEMINI 672 201
N64 JEOPARDY 61 334
N64 ISS SOCCER PRO 98 42 178
N64 INTL SUPERSTAR SOCCER 72 060
N64 INDY RACING LEAGUE 2K 59 648
N64 IGGYS RECKIN BALLS 49 326
N64 HYDRO THUNDER 98 701
N64 HYBRID HEAVEN 130 630
N64 HOT WHEELS TRBO RACNG 203 792
N64 HEY YOU PIKACHU! 724 720
N64 HEXEN 126 182
N64 HERCULES: LEGENDARY 27 294
N64 HARVEST MOON 64 205 310
N64 GT64 RACING CHAMP ED 64 460
N64 GRIFFEY JRS SLUGFEST 188 388
N64 GRETZKY 64 404 999
N64 GREATEST ARCADE HITS 156 285
N64 GOLDENEYE 007 5 019 092
N64 GOLDEN NUGGET 53 564
N64 GOEMONS GREAT ADVENTR 49 575
N64 GLOVER 604 850
N64 GEX: ENTER THE GEKO 161 619
N64 GEX 3:DEEP CVR GECKO 141 905
N64 GAUNTLET LEGENDS 357 502
N64 FOX COLLEGE HOOPS 99 163 983
N64 FORSAKEN 194 957
N64 FLYING DRAGON 57 815
N64 FIGHTING FORCE 64 69 883
N64 FIGHTERS DESTINY 99 026
N64 FIGHTER DESTINY 2 23 783
N64 FIFA: RTWC 98 122 092
N64 FIFA SOCCER 99 85 775
N64 FIFA SOCCER 97 126 909
N64 F1 WORLD GRAND PRIX 394 042
N64 F1 POLE POSITION 64 82 541
N64 F ZERO X 383 642
N64 EXTREME G 2 259 467
N64 EXTREME G 390 417
N64 EXCITEBIKE 64 544 903
N64 ELMO'S NUMBER JOURNEY 125 573
N64 ELMOS LETTER ADVENTRE 114 798
N64 ECW:HARDCORE REVLUTON 150 686
N64 EARTHWORM JIM 3D 77 044
N64 DUKE NUKEM: ZERO HOUR 177 077
N64 DUKE NUKEM 64 290 680
N64 DUAL HEROES 24 661
N64 DR. MARIO 64 277 199
N64 DOOM 64 316 899
N64 DONKEY KONG 64 2 336 132
N64 DONALD DUCK GOIN' 64 418
N64 DISNEY'S TARZAN 133 985
N64 DIDDY KONG RACING 2 500 609
N64 DESTRUCTION DERBY 64 105 709
N64 DEADLY ARTS 21 170
N64 DARK RIFT 94 606
N64 CYBERTIGER WOODS GOLF 39 936
N64 CRUIS'N EXOTICA 140 874
N64 CRUISIN USA 1 486 612
N64 CRUIS N WORLD 496 044
N64 CONKER'S BAD FUR DAY 405 606
N64 COMMAND & CONQUER 180 240
N64 CLAY FIGHTER 63 1/3 140 534
N64 CHOPPER ATTACK 74 856
N64 CHARLIE BLAST TERRTRY 12 960
N64 CHAMELEON TWIST 2 29 218
N64 CHAMELEON TWIST 68 474
N64 CASTLEVANIA: DARKNESS 51 976
N64 CASTLEVANIA 364 625
N64 CARMAGEDDON 3 809
N64 CALIFORNIA SPEED 99 589
N64 BUST A MOVE 99 35 718
N64 BUST A MOVE 2 50 613
N64 BUDGET ASSORTMENT 51
N64 BUCK BUMBLE 100 304
N64 BRNSWK CIRCUT BOWLING 39 282
N64 BOTTOM OF THE 9TH 30 343
N64 BOMBERMAN HERO 225 681
N64 BOMBERMAN 64 419 586
N64 BOMBERMAN 2 34 993
N64 BODY HARVEST 130 588
N64 BLUES BROTHERS 2000 24 532
N64 BLAST CORPS 322 579
N64 BIO FREAKS 83 017
N64 BIG MOUNTAIN 2000 13 629
N64 BEETLE ADVENTURE 329 364
N64 BATTLEZONE 44 004
N64 BATTLE TANX2: ASSAULT 258 233
N64 BATTLE TANX 220 327
N64 BATMAN BEYOND 59 622
N64 BASSMASTERS 2000 85 558
N64 BASS HUNTER 64 209 463
N64 BANJO-TOOIE 697 963
N64 BANJO-KAZOOIE 1 616 250
N64 AUTOMOBIL LAMBORGHINI 230 541
N64 ASTEROIDS HYPER 64 103 644
N64 ARMY MEN SRGES HERO 2 285 032
N64 ARMY MEN SARGES HERO 574 856
N64 ARMY MEN AIR COMBAT 153 808
N64 ARMORINES PROJ SWARM 173 860
N64 ALL STAR TENNIS 99 23 582
N64 ALL STAR BASEBALL2001 180 591
N64 ALL STAR BASEBALL2000 297 941
N64 ALL STAR BASEBALL 99 364 304
N64 AIDYN CHRONICLES:MAGE 60 454
N64 AEROGUAGE 42 710
N64 AEROFIGHTERS ASSAULT 123 758
N64 A BUG'S LIFE 405 490
N64 1080 SNOWBOARDING 1 077 769
PSX PLAYSTN/NEED 4 SPEED2 Sep-98 18 838
PSX PLAYSTN W/TOSHINDEN Aug-96 205 312
PSX PLAYSTN W/RIDGE RACER Oct-95 60 958
PSX PLAYSTN W/LCD SCREEN Jan-03 216 340
PSX PLAYSTN W/DS CNTRLLER Jun-98 1 193 773
PSX PLAYSTN W/ DS CONTROL Jul-99 5 649 648
PSX PLAYSTN ONE Sep-00 5 772 065
PSX PLAYSTATION SYSTEM Sep-95 3 208 115
PSX PLAYSTATION SYSTEM May-97 6 391 317
total: 22 716 364
N64 SYSTEM REFURBISHED Jun-03 7 416
N64 SYSTEM Sep-96 9 185 735
N64 SYS W/ ZELDA Jan-99 31 328
N64 SYS W/ SW EPISODE 1 May-99 498 106
N64 SYS W/ DONKEY KONG Nov-99 535 732
N64 SYS POKEMON STADIUM BNDL Mar-00 246 294
N64 SYS PIKACHU SYSTEM BUNDLE Nov-00 228 424
N64 SYS GOLD/2 CONTROL Mar-03 78 627
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC WATERMELON Feb-00 107 202
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC SMOKE Feb-00 122 736
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC JNGLE GREEN Feb-00 153 789
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC ICE Feb-00 288 914
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC GRAPE Feb-00 144 814
N64 SYS FUNTASTIC FIRE Feb-00 100 644
N64 SYS ATOMIC PURPLE BUNDLE Nov-98 6 210 570
total: 17 940 332
By my count the PS1 has about a 4:1 edge in software but a much smaller
edge in hardware, if these numbers are at all accurate. They're not perfect
as budget re-releases, compilations, and refurbished hardware skew the
numbers a little, but they give a pretty decent broad picture.. if they're
accurate, as I say.
> no I think the difference with MS is that it has a natural attraction
> to developers that are traditional PC game developers. Developers of
> traditional arcade games and console games have received it with
> mediocre warmth at best.
I'd argue that traditional console developers *outside Japan* have
received it with a great deal of warmth, but obviously Japan's an excpetion
to this rule.
> ofcourse you did.. why else did you bring up the fact that the
> hardware sales of PS2 to XBOX is 6 to 1? and then making some sort of
> conclusion of how well XBOX's software situtations is because of its
> software porportions are with respect to this? If you honestly believe
> that there is no direct proportion correlation between hardware and
> software, this 6 to 1 would be irrelevent, because for all we know
> this could be a quadratic or cubic relationship. Even if it is linear,
> God knows what the x factor could be. I don't have the numbers, but
> I'm willing to be bet its not some linear function, assuming that a
> relation even exists.
I didn't suggest that there was some clear formula where X marketshare
equals Y software sales, just that greater marketshare should accelerate
software support in my mind. I acknowledge that ports mess this scenario up
but good, though, and that the frequency of ports is increasing.
> another thing that the oversimplification of using direct proportions
> of total games ignores is multiplatform games, since multiplatform
> games are counted for all consoles, by including it, it skews the
> numbers. I mean, think about it, if every game is multiplatform, then
> the software ratio of two consoles would be 1:1. I don't think it
> makes sense counting total ratio. Counting only exclusives might be a
> better indicator.
That's a good thought.
Scott H
Holy crap, those numbers amaze me. Ole Vic made it sound like the
average PS1 game sold a lot more than they actually did. It looks like the
average PS1 game sold 20-100K, and anything over 100K was successful. The
Dreamcast was the same in software sales, it just didn't have as many
million sellers as the PS1 did. (
http://home1.gte.net/res0zjb2/Dreamcastussales.htm ) Very interesting.
Eiji Hayashi
> I wasn't saying that they aren't of interest to anyone, just that
> publishers apparently don't think they are otherwise someone would localise
> them. Seems logical to me.
which was EXACTLY what I said
> > Regardless of whether or not
> > playing the game in the arcade translates into buying the game (which
> > opens a whole new can of worms), I think this example amply
> > demonstrates that the interest is there.
>
> Why aren't publishers interested in bringing games like Tokyo Bus Driver
> and the myriad dating sims to other markets, by and large, then?
Remember Steven. I'm disproving your theory that ALL games that do not
get localized is of no interest to North American gamers. All I have
to do is suggest ONE game for which this doesn't apply, and I have
with Initial D, and I would disprove this theory. I do not need to
prove that EVERY game that do not get localized is of interest to
North American gamers. The fact that there are titles like TBD and
dating sims which obviously aren't of interest to most North American
gamers is irrelevent to the topic at hand.
> This is the best I've been able to dig up. I have no idea how reliable
> these numbers are, mind...
<snip the data.. impressive as it is>
> By my count the PS1 has about a 4:1 edge in software but a much smaller
> edge in hardware, if these numbers are at all accurate. They're not perfect
? much smaller edge in hardware? as impressive as I am that you
actually spent the time to dig up the numbers I have to ask.. does
this data only cover a specific period of time or the entire life of
the console? cause I could've sworn there were a heck of alot more PSX
than N64s sold.
> as budget re-releases, compilations, and refurbished hardware skew the
> numbers a little, but they give a pretty decent broad picture.. if they're
> accurate, as I say.
and I think the number proves my point that there is no mathetical
correlation between software availability and hardware sales, least of
all a 1:1 correlation. If you were to dig up the software/hardware
figures for say, Saturn/PSX do you think the hardware/software
correlation would be the same as PSX/N64? I'm willing to bet no
> I'd argue that traditional console developers *outside Japan* have
> received it with a great deal of warmth, but obviously Japan's an excpetion
> to this rule.
what traditional console developers "outside of Japan" are there?
Atari?
> I didn't suggest that there was some clear formula where X marketshare
> equals Y software sales, just that greater marketshare should accelerate
> software support in my mind. I acknowledge that ports mess this scenario up
> but good, though, and that the frequency of ports is increasing.
I don't get why you brought up the 6:1 ratio then.
> > another thing that the oversimplification of using direct proportions
> > of total games ignores is multiplatform games, since multiplatform
> > games are counted for all consoles, by including it, it skews the
> > numbers. I mean, think about it, if every game is multiplatform, then
> > the software ratio of two consoles would be 1:1. I don't think it
> > makes sense counting total ratio. Counting only exclusives might be a
> > better indicator.
>
> That's a good thought.
Yeah.. now let see you dig up a list of EXCLUSIVE softwares for both
consoles ^_^' Just kidding.. don't waste your time.. I don't think
we'll be able to derive any kind of mathematical relationship between
hardware sales and software. Although this could serve as a good
thesis topic for a Ph.D business student.
Robert P Holley
news:a5Z9b.3675$uF3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>
> "Steven Hurdle" <ya...@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
> news:7IU9b.976046$3C2.22...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
>
> Holy crap, those numbers amaze me. Ole Vic made it sound like the
> average PS1 game sold a lot more than they actually did.
Vic exaggerate in Sony's favor? Never!
Altho I suppose he wouldn't have had to sell his copy of Radiant Silvergun
if was correct.
Steven Hurdle
> > I wasn't saying that they aren't of interest to anyone, just that
> > publishers apparently don't think they are otherwise someone would
localise
> > them. Seems logical to me.
> which was EXACTLY what I said
It's what I'd said too, as far as I can remember. Quote me saying
something different, if you feel I did, I can't find me saying anything
else, looking back.
> Remember Steven. I'm disproving your theory that ALL games that do not
> get localized is of no interest to North American gamers.
Quote me saying that, I don't recall saying it.
> All I have
> to do is suggest ONE game for which this doesn't apply, and I have
> with Initial D, and I would disprove this theory. I do not need to
> prove that EVERY game that do not get localized is of interest to
> North American gamers. The fact that there are titles like TBD and
> dating sims which obviously aren't of interest to most North American
> gamers is irrelevent to the topic at hand.
Again, I don't recall saying this. Dig up the quote please, because I
don't believe I said that.
> > By my count the PS1 has about a 4:1 edge in software but a much
smaller
> > edge in hardware, if these numbers are at all accurate. They're not
perfect
> ? much smaller edge in hardware? as impressive as I am that you
> actually spent the time to dig up the numbers I have to ask.. does
> this data only cover a specific period of time or the entire life of
> the console? cause I could've sworn there were a heck of alot more PSX
> than N64s sold.
The figures are from the NPD so they're *not* global, though that's
obvious from the fact that they're only region 1 titles. :) In fact, NPD
figures are only for the U.S., not even Canadian sales are included. It
looks like the NPD heading got lost in the cut-and-paste, for which I
apologise. However, you wanted an example of a hardware ratio versus a
software ratio and it was the most detailed I could find. They cover the
entire time period from the PSX's release in 1995 to the present, but only
for the U.S.
Still, what's interesting for me is that the PSX has a much larger
software edge than hardware edge in the U.S. according to the figures.
> and I think the number proves my point that there is no mathetical
> correlation between software availability and hardware sales, least of
> all a 1:1 correlation. If you were to dig up the software/hardware
> figures for say, Saturn/PSX do you think the hardware/software
> correlation would be the same as PSX/N64? I'm willing to bet no
I never said there would be 1:1 correlation. You inferred that as my
intent and I've repeatedly indicated it was not, to general disinterest in
my clarification on your part as far as I can tell.
> what traditional console developers "outside of Japan" are there?
> Atari?
Activision has been pretty much console only since day 1, for example, as
they released Pitfall on the Atari 2600 let's not forget. :) Most other
North American console developers died out in 1983 and 1984, so the rest are
post-1985 generally.
> > I didn't suggest that there was some clear formula where X
marketshare
> > equals Y software sales, just that greater marketshare should accelerate
> > software support in my mind. I acknowledge that ports mess this
scenario up
> > but good, though, and that the frequency of ports is increasing.
> I don't get why you brought up the 6:1 ratio then.
It was an example of a hardware ratio, then I brought up an example of a
software ratio, to compare to the two. Even knowing ports change the
picture, I felt it was an interesting point. You apparently don't and fair
enough. *shrug*
Eiji Hayashi
> "Eiji Hayashi" <li...@mcmaster.ca> wrote
>
> > > I wasn't saying that they aren't of interest to anyone, just that
> > > publishers apparently don't think they are otherwise someone would
> localise
> > > them. Seems logical to me.
>
> > which was EXACTLY what I said
>
> It's what I'd said too, as far as I can remember. Quote me saying
> something different, if you feel I did, I can't find me saying anything
> else, looking back.
"The games that are Japanese-only aren't of interest to a lot of
people outside of Japan (if it were otherwise, they WOULD be being
released
outside of Japan :) )."
That doesn't seem to be what you said. I was the first person to bring
up "developers" into the discussions (remember.. the people I call
"the power that be").
> > Remember Steven. I'm disproving your theory that ALL games that do not
> > get localized is of no interest to North American gamers.
>
> Quote me saying that, I don't recall saying it.
on second reading, I guess you didn't say "ALL"
> The figures are from the NPD so they're *not* global, though that's
> obvious from the fact that they're only region 1 titles. :) In fact, NPD
> figures are only for the U.S., not even Canadian sales are included. It
> looks like the NPD heading got lost in the cut-and-paste, for which I
> apologise. However, you wanted an example of a hardware ratio versus a
> software ratio and it was the most detailed I could find. They cover the
> entire time period from the PSX's release in 1995 to the present, but only
> for the U.S.
no.. that's ok. I'm almost certain there isn't some mathematical
pattern to all of this other than the general trend that more hardware
sold = generally more software
> I never said there would be 1:1 correlation. You inferred that as my
> intent and I've repeatedly indicated it was not, to general disinterest in
> my clarification on your part as far as I can tell.
then I honestly don't understand why you would bring up 6:1 ratio if
you didn't plan on using that in any assertion
> Activision has been pretty much console only since day 1, for example, as
> they released Pitfall on the Atari 2600 let's not forget. :) Most other
> North American console developers died out in 1983 and 1984, so the rest are
> post-1985 generally.
What console games has Atari released lately?
> It was an example of a hardware ratio, then I brought up an example of a
> software ratio, to compare to the two. Even knowing ports change the
> picture, I felt it was an interesting point. You apparently don't and fair
> enough. *shrug*
Yeah but by doing so, you're suggesting there's some sort of
mathematical relationship between software ratio and hardware ratio,
something that I don't agree with. Atleast not in any way more
specific than direct or indirect trends (ie: more = more and less =
less). Ratio by its very nature implies proportionality of a linear
equation, ie: y=ax+b where a is the proportionality constant or ratio,
which is 6 in this case. I don't think proportionality is true when
comparing software ratio and hardware ratio, least of all something as
simple as LINEAR proportionality.
So you can see why I was confused why you would bring up ratio to the
discussion if you're saying that you don't believe linear
proportionality exist either.
Steven Hurdle
> "The games that are Japanese-only aren't of interest to a lot of
> people outside of Japan (if it were otherwise, they WOULD be being
> released
> outside of Japan :) )."
>
> That doesn't seem to be what you said. I was the first person to bring
> up "developers" into the discussions (remember.. the people I call
> "the power that be").
You kept saying I said the games were of no interest, I just said they
weren't of a lot of interest. And I didn't use the word developers, but I
was certainly referencing developers making decision on bringing the games
to other markets (or not) when I said "otherwise, they WOULD be being
released outside of Japan :) )".
You then cited an example of a game that was localised and released in
North America. At the risk of stating the obvious, your example therefore
wasn't a Japanese-only game. :) In the quote above I wasn't talking about
Japanese games in general, merely the ones that are never localised/released
in other markets. Perhaps you didn't understand that (and your responses
would seem to suggest you didn't).
> > > Remember Steven. I'm disproving your theory that ALL games that do not
> > > get localized is of no interest to North American gamers.
> > Quote me saying that, I don't recall saying it.
> on second reading, I guess you didn't say "ALL"
I didn't, and I wasn't talking about games like Initial D Special Stage
(arcade version) either now that we've established it was localised and
released here.
> no.. that's ok. I'm almost certain there isn't some mathematical
> pattern to all of this other than the general trend that more hardware
> sold = generally more software
I'd further add that the PSX vs. the N64 lacks a certain something in the
comparison since the PSX uses optical media and the N64 used cartridges. :)
> > I never said there would be 1:1 correlation. You inferred that as my
> > intent and I've repeatedly indicated it was not, to general disinterest
in
> > my clarification on your part as far as I can tell.
> then I honestly don't understand why you would bring up 6:1 ratio if
> you didn't plan on using that in any assertion
*shrug* Seems obvious to me. Here it is again.
"Given your
estimation that there are as many Japanese PS2 releases as releases in North
America and Europe combined, after removing duplicated titles the PS2 would
have approximately twice as many games released globally as the Xbox, and
that's a real success for Microsoft's efforts given Sony has a 6:1 advantage
in hardware. You would expect Sony to have a 6:1 (or perhaps even greater)
advantage in software too, but it hasn't materialised."
In responding to this comment you frequently stated that I was saying
that I expected there to be a firm ever-changing ratio between software and
hardware, but I did nothing of the sort ("or perhaps even greater",
suggesting a certain degree of ambiguity). I merely suggested I'd expect
the software advantage to be equal or greater to the hardware advantage.
> > Activision has been pretty much console only since day 1, for
example, as
> > they released Pitfall on the Atari 2600 let's not forget. :) Most
other
> > North American console developers died out in 1983 and 1984, so the rest
are
> > post-1985 generally.
> What console games has Atari released lately?
What does that have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about
software publishers, and Activision has been releasing games on consoles
back to the Atari 2600. You asked for a traditional non-Japanese console
publisher and I gave you an example. I could come up with others if you'd
like, but you asked for one and it was provided.
> > It was an example of a hardware ratio, then I brought up an example
of a
> > software ratio, to compare to the two. Even knowing ports change the
> > picture, I felt it was an interesting point. You apparently don't and
fair
> > enough. *shrug*
> Yeah but by doing so, you're suggesting there's some sort of
> mathematical relationship between software ratio and hardware ratio,
> something that I don't agree with. Atleast not in any way more
> specific than direct or indirect trends (ie: more = more and less =
> less).
That's all I was really suggesting, more = more and less = less, other
than to throw in the additional wrinkle that success breeds success and I
feel (and, when asked to, came up with some numbers that suggest) that
traditionally successful consoles have had software ratios even better than
their hardware ratios. The current prevalence of porting changes that
dynamic somewhat, but traditionally that's how it was I believe.
> Ratio by its very nature implies proportionality of a linear
> equation, ie: y=ax+b where a is the proportionality constant or ratio,
> which is 6 in this case. I don't think proportionality is true when
> comparing software ratio and hardware ratio, least of all something as
> simple as LINEAR proportionality.
>
> So you can see why I was confused why you would bring up ratio to the
> discussion if you're saying that you don't believe linear
> proportionality exist either.
I think you're reading much more into my comment than was intended, and
in that sense ys I can see why you're confused. :)
Eiji Hayashi
> > That doesn't seem to be what you said. I was the first person to bring
> > up "developers" into the discussions (remember.. the people I call
> > "the power that be").
>
> You kept saying I said the games were of no interest, I just said they
> weren't of a lot of interest. And I didn't use the word developers, but I
> was certainly referencing developers making decision on bringing the games
> to other markets (or not) when I said "otherwise, they WOULD be being
> released outside of Japan :) )".
>
> You then cited an example of a game that was localised and released in
> North America. At the risk of stating the obvious, your example therefore
> wasn't a Japanese-only game. :) In the quote above I wasn't talking about
> Japanese games in general, merely the ones that are never localised/released
> in other markets. Perhaps you didn't understand that (and your responses
> would seem to suggest you didn't).
err.. Initial D has NOT been localized. Its only available in ARCADES
in North America, not console. I use the fact that it is very popular
in the arcades in North America to illustrate that just because a game
hasn't been localized for the console in North America doesn't mean
its of no interest.
> I didn't, and I wasn't talking about games like Initial D Special Stage
> (arcade version) either now that we've established it was localised and
> released here.
its not localized for the console, only in the arcade
> I'd further add that the PSX vs. the N64 lacks a certain something in the
> comparison since the PSX uses optical media and the N64 used cartridges. :)
that's one of many many factors that reduce the relationship to far
far more than a simple linear equation
> "Given your
> estimation that there are as many Japanese PS2 releases as releases in North
> America and Europe combined, after removing duplicated titles the PS2 would
> have approximately twice as many games released globally as the Xbox, and
> that's a real success for Microsoft's efforts given Sony has a 6:1 advantage
> in hardware. You would expect Sony to have a 6:1 (or perhaps even greater)
> advantage in software too, but it hasn't materialised."
How did you draw the conclusion that its a "real success" based on the
hardware ratio? It seems to me that "real success" is some sort of
conclusion on your part based on your interpretation of the hardware
ratio in relations to software ratio. But we've already established
that its a very complex model that is most likely non-linear (and
hence linear ratio is irrelevent).
> In responding to this comment you frequently stated that I was saying
> that I expected there to be a firm ever-changing ratio between software and
> hardware, but I did nothing of the sort ("or perhaps even greater",
> suggesting a certain degree of ambiguity). I merely suggested I'd expect
> the software advantage to be equal or greater to the hardware advantage.
again.. why would you expect the software advantage have to be the
same as the hardware advantage? Yes we all know more hardware=more
software, but with this statement above you are trying to say that
QUANTITIVELY there's a mathematical relationship between THE QUANTITY
of hardware advantage with the QUANTITY of software advantage. I
disagree.
> > What console games has Atari released lately?
>
> What does that have to do with anything? I thought we were talking about
> software publishers, and Activision has been releasing games on consoles
> back to the Atari 2600. You asked for a traditional non-Japanese console
> publisher and I gave you an example. I could come up with others if you'd
> like, but you asked for one and it was provided.
well since we're talking about the level of traditional
console-developer support of XBOX, its logical to see a list of what
they've actually put out on it is it not?
> That's all I was really suggesting, more = more and less = less, other
> than to throw in the additional wrinkle that success breeds success and I
but your lines above implies there's some sort of quantitative
relationship, not just general trend. That's where I disagree.
Steven Hurdle
> > You then cited an example of a game that was localised and released
in
> > North America. At the risk of stating the obvious, your example
therefore
> > wasn't a Japanese-only game. :) In the quote above I wasn't talking
about
> > Japanese games in general, merely the ones that are never
localised/released
> > in other markets. Perhaps you didn't understand that (and your
responses
> > would seem to suggest you didn't).
> err.. Initial D has NOT been localized. Its only available in ARCADES
> in North America, not console. I use the fact that it is very popular
> in the arcades in North America to illustrate that just because a game
> hasn't been localized for the console in North America doesn't mean
> its of no interest.
Why is it now being arbitrarily limited only to consoles after you first
expanded the discussion to arcade units. What exactly is your point here?
Yet again, you're trying to insiste that I said that a game that hasn't been
localised is of "no interest" (your words, ones I never said).
> > I didn't, and I wasn't talking about games like Initial D Special
Stage
> > (arcade version) either now that we've established it was localised and
> > released here.
> its not localized for the console, only in the arcade
Your point is what, exactly?
> that's one of many many factors that reduce the relationship to far
> far more than a simple linear equation
I never said it was a linear equation. You said I said that, but I did
not, yet you only seem interested in your initial interpretation. My
attempts at clarification (since you didn't understand my point, it seems)
have met with stubborn disinterest, as far as I can tell.
> How did you draw the conclusion that its a "real success" based on the
> hardware ratio? It seems to me that "real success" is some sort of
> conclusion on your part based on your interpretation of the hardware
> ratio in relations to software ratio. But we've already established
> that its a very complex model that is most likely non-linear (and
> hence linear ratio is irrelevent).
I was indicating the Xbox was a success on the software side of things,
which it is (both in number of titles available for a second-place system
and in tie-ratio, IMO). And I never said it was lock-hard linear ratio, you
said I said that, but you can't demonstrate I can't because I didn't. :)
> > In responding to this comment you frequently stated that I was saying
> > that I expected there to be a firm ever-changing ratio between software
and
> > hardware, but I did nothing of the sort ("or perhaps even greater",
> > suggesting a certain degree of ambiguity). I merely suggested I'd
expect
> > the software advantage to be equal or greater to the hardware advantage.
> again.. why would you expect the software advantage have to be the
> same as the hardware advantage?
I indicated that history suggests that the software advantage is not the
same as the hardware advantage (I, in fact, suggested it was better), a
point you stubbornly resist acknowledging as far as I can tell.
> Yes we all know more hardware=more
> software, but with this statement above you are trying to say that
> QUANTITIVELY there's a mathematical relationship between THE QUANTITY
> of hardware advantage with the QUANTITY of software advantage. I
> disagree.
I'm not trying to say anything of the sort, you're saying I'm trying to
say that.
> > > What console games has Atari released lately?
> > What does that have to do with anything? I thought we were talking
about
> > software publishers, and Activision has been releasing games on consoles
> > back to the Atari 2600. You asked for a traditional non-Japanese
console
> > publisher and I gave you an example. I could come up with others if
you'd
> > like, but you asked for one and it was provided.
> well since we're talking about the level of traditional
> console-developer support of XBOX, its logical to see a list of what
> they've actually put out on it is it not?
I'm not sure what your point is, but here goes.
X2 Wolverine's Revenge
Spider-Man
X-Men: Next Dimension
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4
Wakeboarding Unleashed Featuring Shaun Murray
Wreckless: The Yakuza Missions
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x
Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer
Rally Fusion: Race of Champions
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Soldier of Fortune II
Disney's Extreme Skate Adventure
That's decently strong support, especially since they have two Live
titles out and more on the way and support for Live is one of the things
that separates publishers who're lukewarm to the Xbox (EA) and publishers
who're enthusiastic about the Xbox (Ubisoft). They've averaged an Xbox
release once every seven weeks or so since launch.
> > That's all I was really suggesting, more = more and less = less,
other
> > than to throw in the additional wrinkle that success breeds success and
I
> but your lines above implies there's some sort of quantitative
> relationship, not just general trend. That's where I disagree.
No, you keep insisting that I said/implied things without quotes that
definitively back up your interpretation, paired up with utter disinterest
on your part in any attempt on my part to clarify my points, as far as I can
tell. You keep repeating the same interpretations over and over again
without quotes that prove it, it seems to me. I'm certain in my own mind I
didn't intend most of the things you're saying I did, that's for sure.
Eiji Hayashi
> > err.. Initial D has NOT been localized. Its only available in ARCADES
> > in North America, not console. I use the fact that it is very popular
> > in the arcades in North America to illustrate that just because a game
> > hasn't been localized for the console in North America doesn't mean
> > its of no interest.
>
> Why is it now being arbitrarily limited only to consoles after you first
> expanded the discussion to arcade units. What exactly is your point here?
> Yet again, you're trying to insiste that I said that a game that hasn't been
> localised is of "no interest" (your words, ones I never said).
you might not have said its of "no interest" to everyone, but you
certainly seem to think its of "no interest" to MOST people in North
America, and no, the conversation has never been about arcades, its
always about consoles, I'm simplying using its performance in the
arcades to illustrate that had it been localized on console, it's
still very likely to be popular, in constrast to your assertion that
non-localized games generally are not popular to most people in North
America. I think the logic is quite clear, and I'm sure if you look at
it again you'll understand exactly what I mean, you're too smart not
too.
> Your point is what, exactly?
I figure you would have figured it out by now, see above
> I never said it was a linear equation. You said I said that, but I did
> not, yet you only seem interested in your initial interpretation. My
> attempts at clarification (since you didn't understand my point, it seems)
> have met with stubborn disinterest, as far as I can tell.
if you do not think its linear, then bringing up ratios is irrelevent,
since ratios implies linearity. You're trying to use a non-relevent
indicator to come to a conclusion, which doesn't follow.
> I was indicating the Xbox was a success on the software side of things,
> which it is (both in number of titles available for a second-place system
> and in tie-ratio, IMO). And I never said it was lock-hard linear ratio, you
> said I said that, but you can't demonstrate I can't because I didn't. :)
if there is no established relationship, how can one come to the
conclusion that it is doing well or it isn't? that's like saying, I
sold ten times as many new widgets as my old widgets, so I must be
doing really well in the current market. The fact that you sold 10X as
many widgets as your previous attempt, as good as that might be for
internal performance, is irrelevent and not an indicator at all of how
well the widget is doing in the overall current market.
> I indicated that history suggests that the software advantage is not the
> same as the hardware advantage (I, in fact, suggested it was better), a
> point you stubbornly resist acknowledging as far as I can tell.
I see.. you're suggesting that software advantage should be higher
than hardware advantage, given traditional data. That's fine. However,
you should realize this only represents a point on the curve of
X=hardware advantage vs Y=software advantage, and the curve is not
necessarily linear.
The best way to describe this is through example. If console A sells
100 units and has 200 units of software, whereas console B sells 50
units and only has 75 units of software. (ie: console A has 2:1
hardware advantage on console B, but a 2.6:1 advantage in software,
which is what you're suggesting, that software advantage is usually
higher). What you're saying is, if the current console C sells 1000
units and has 2000 units of software, whereas console D sells 500
units but has 1000 units of software, that implies that console D is
doing well, since the software advantage of console C over D is only
2:1 with the hardware advantage staying the same, whereas a historical
contrast shows 2.6:1. While this is certainly true in a linear
relationship, I'm sure you can see this would not be true, if the
relationship is non-linear, which means you can't really come any
conclusion of whether console D is successful or unsuccessful based on
this. The only way you can possibly suggest this, is if you're able to
somehow get a whole bunch of points based on data from a whole bunch
of different pairs of historic consoles and try to interpolate the
curve based on all the points. However, you've thus far only provided
data for one pair of consoles, hence, one point on the curve, which is
not enough to derive any kind of relationship from.
I don't know how much simpler I can be.
> I'm not sure what your point is, but here goes.
>
> X2 Wolverine's Revenge
> Spider-Man
> X-Men: Next Dimension
> Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
> Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4
> Wakeboarding Unleashed Featuring Shaun Murray
> Wreckless: The Yakuza Missions
> Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x
> Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer
> Rally Fusion: Race of Champions
> Return to Castle Wolfenstein
> Soldier of Fortune II
> Disney's Extreme Skate Adventure
>
> That's decently strong support, especially since they have two Live
> titles out and more on the way and support for Live is one of the things
> that separates publishers who're lukewarm to the Xbox (EA) and publishers
> who're enthusiastic about the Xbox (Ubisoft). They've averaged an Xbox
> release once every seven weeks or so since launch.
ok.. this is a good argument. I concede that my previous assertion
that support from traditional arcade and console game developers is
weak for the XBOX is probably incorrect or atleast too much of a
simplification. See.. something does get settled on usenet.
> No, you keep insisting that I said/implied things without quotes that
> definitively back up your interpretation, paired up with utter disinterest
> on your part in any attempt on my part to clarify my points, as far as I can
> tell. You keep repeating the same interpretations over and over again
> without quotes that prove it, it seems to me. I'm certain in my own mind I
> didn't intend most of the things you're saying I did, that's for sure.
no. I've thus far been unconvinced that what you mean is not what I
interpreted, especially on the issue of ratios. You use ratios to make
a conclusion, I then suggest that ratios implies linear relationship
which is inapplicable to the market model, you then agreed that its
non-linear but still stick with the conclusion. Is it really my
interpretation?