The definition of Troll and Fanboy
flo...@usit.net
back. Then we went back and forth for awhile, and I got a better
understanding of where he was coming from. But it got me thinking
about the terms Fanboy and Troll.
First before going forward, I can clearly see, why anorexcercist
called me a troll, because after going back and forth for awhile, I
got a clearer understanding of what trolling is to him. But I would
think that the terms fanboy and trolling are different depending on
who you talk too.
I have posted to the X-Box group with clear favoritism to the Cube.
But I have never started a post, with anti-X-Box titles. I have
offered pro Cube rhetoric, within the context of certain posts, to be
sure. Someone asked whether the X-Box could survive in Japan for
instance, and I clearly stated no, with pro Cube language.
So again, under Anorexcercists definition of troll and fanboy, this is
the case with some of my posts. But I always thought that they were
done in fun, with no world ending seriousness involved. I made my
points within posts, often being of the system comparison kind.
I mean people were asking for responses on such things, going back and
forth in what I thought was just a fun debate, regardless of which
console you preferred. People were posting to the Cube newsgroup anti
cube statements and people were posting anti X-Box stuff there. I
always thought it was in fun. Why take it all so serious ?
I was asked by Anorexcercist, how I'd feel about him loading the Cube
newsgroup with anti-cube posts. Well, I don't know if I'd mind it at
all. I have an aversion to name calling and abusive language, but I
don't mind the discourse, even if it did smack of fanboyism or
trolling. To me, it's part of the fun. Why have such a serious
attitude about it ?
Now clearly there are posts going to the X-Box group, that are going
into silly territory. Meant to provoke and what not. Here we have a
clearer picture of what a troll or fanboy is.
And at the risk of getting anorexcercist mad again, I must mention his
post on the downgrade of the Cube chip. The claim is that he was
simply putting out information, but I have to take you to task for
this one instance. It had been posted before, and I believe you posted
it again, specifically to get the rise out of the Cube people. You can
say different, if you'd like.
So I guess my definition of a troll, doesn't neccessarily mean what
Anorexcercists definition is. To me there's a difference in civil fun
debate on such things, with room for fanboyism as long as it doesn't
get personal. I do however clearly agree, that the specific posts
labeled X-Box sux and what not, are clearcut examples of trolling.
I guess I never understood the seriousness that Anorexcercist
exhibited. This isn't to take away from his viewpoint. I understand it
to some degree now.
But I think, that like a black hole, sucking everything in, that this
console war thing often goes overboard into a territory that sucks in
everyone at some point. And sometimes it gets way more serious than it
has too. I'm not immune, I admit it, but I also know that the black
hole has sucked in or started to suck in a whole lot of you.
So I offer a truce to Anorexcercist and the rest of the X-Box group. I
am a Cube supporter. But I will refrain from posting pro Cube
sentiments in your newsgroup, unless it is specifically in response to
a crosspost or if it only involves an opinion on the X-Box itself.
flounda
Gëñë Pøø|ë³
troll v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To
utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable
responses or flames; or, the post itself.
...whenever you make a statement with the intent to piss people off, you
are trolling...no matter what group.
Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from
mainstream
"trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely
spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that
induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more
clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to
the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If
you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also
YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly
posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a
newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to
annoy someone or disrupt a discussion.
so a troll is someone who does such regularly...if I wander into a group
and my conversation eventually takes a turn towards the abusive, I may
be trolling, but I am not a troll.
Trolls are
recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning
about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.
Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming
characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a
lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a
troll."
Pvt. Miha ł
>are trolling...no matter what group.
So you're saying you can troll in your own group ? :o)
Pvt. Miha ł
>troll."
I agree with this! Doesn't anyone else? Let's focus on the cube doods.
Anorexorcist
<flo...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:3b1fe8d0...@news.onemain.com...
> Okay, so anorexcercist called me a troll fanboy and I called him one
> back. Then we went back and forth for awhile, and I got a better
> understanding of where he was coming from. But it got me thinking
> about the terms Fanboy and Troll.
>
> First before going forward, I can clearly see, why anorexcercist
> called me a troll, because after going back and forth for awhile, I
> got a clearer understanding of what trolling is to him. But I would
> think that the terms fanboy and trolling are different depending on
> who you talk too.
>
> I have posted to the X-Box group with clear favoritism to the Cube.
> But I have never started a post, with anti-X-Box titles. I have
> offered pro Cube rhetoric, within the context of certain posts, to be
> sure. Someone asked whether the X-Box could survive in Japan for
> instance, and I clearly stated no, with pro Cube language.
>
> So again, under Anorexcercists definition of troll and fanboy, this is
> the case with some of my posts. But I always thought that they were
> done in fun, with no world ending seriousness involved. I made my
> points within posts, often being of the system comparison kind.
Well I always thought they were done in fun too, until you demanded I
explain why I called you a troll/fanboy, etc. I dont think anyone ever
thought these posts had a "world ending" seriousness involved with them.
>
> I mean people were asking for responses on such things, going back and
> forth in what I thought was just a fun debate, regardless of which
> console you preferred. People were posting to the Cube newsgroup anti
> cube statements and people were posting anti X-Box stuff there. I
> always thought it was in fun. Why take it all so serious ?
I always made my responses in fun, I never took any of this too seriously. I
mean we're all still here. People post here because its fun. However I
have to admit, I started to wonder how seriously you took it when you posted
subjects in the gamecube newsgroup concerning mem specifically the
"anorexcercist - So crossposting is trolling ?" post.
>
> I was asked by Anorexcercist, how I'd feel about him loading the Cube
> newsgroup with anti-cube posts. Well, I don't know if I'd mind it at
> all. I have an aversion to name calling and abusive language, but I
> don't mind the discourse, even if it did smack of fanboyism or
> trolling. To me, it's part of the fun. Why have such a serious
> attitude about it ?
I don't know about that. It seems you got pretty annoyed when I started
calling you a fanboy or a troll. Thats the feeling I got when I started
reading your responses to those statements. I'm not sure how seriously
anyone takes this.
>
> Now clearly there are posts going to the X-Box group, that are going
> into silly territory. Meant to provoke and what not. Here we have a
> clearer picture of what a troll or fanboy is.
>
> And at the risk of getting anorexcercist mad again, I must mention his
> post on the downgrade of the Cube chip. The claim is that he was
> simply putting out information, but I have to take you to task for
> this one instance. It had been posted before, and I believe you posted
> it again, specifically to get the rise out of the Cube people. You can
> say different, if you'd like.
Well at the risk of getting you mad again flounda, I will explain myself yet
again. I posted the article to inform, I saw no mention of it in a previous
subject, maybe I missed it? If I did, I don't think its a big deal. My
intent was to inform, not to get a rise out of anyone. I think my lack of
any comments in the post proves that. Again I think you just have issues
with me in particular reporting that news story. I extend out my previous
offer. If you see something strictly Xbox related ( like a change in specs
or something similar) and it doesn't seem like anyone in the Xbox newsgroup
has talked about it, please by all means tell us about it.
>
> So I guess my definition of a troll, doesn't neccessarily mean what
> Anorexcercists definition is. To me there's a difference in civil fun
> debate on such things, with room for fanboyism as long as it doesn't
> get personal. I do however clearly agree, that the specific posts
> labeled X-Box sux and what not, are clearcut examples of trolling.
>
Going into an Xbox newsgroup and saying Xbox sucks is trolling, just like
going into a Gamecube newsgroup and saying Gamecube sucks is trolling. I
agree theres room for civil fun debate, but to me it seems you got faily
annoyed at the whole fanboy/troll issue. I would think if someone like
yourself, who claims they don't take all this so seriously and you do it
just for fun, wouldn't have gotten so annoyed and demanded explanations on
my fanboy/troll comments.
> I guess I never understood the seriousness that Anorexcercist
> exhibited. This isn't to take away from his viewpoint. I understand it
> to some degree now.
I'm not sure where you got this idea of seriousness from. Seriousness to me
was demanding an explanation for my comments about you.
>
> But I think, that like a black hole, sucking everything in, that this
> console war thing often goes overboard into a territory that sucks in
> everyone at some point. And sometimes it gets way more serious than it
> has too. I'm not immune, I admit it, but I also know that the black
> hole has sucked in or started to suck in a whole lot of you.
Its very easy to get caught up in all of this.
> So I offer a truce to Anorexcercist and the rest of the X-Box group. I
> am a Cube supporter. But I will refrain from posting pro Cube
> sentiments in your newsgroup, unless it is specifically in response to
> a crosspost or if it only involves an opinion on the X-Box itself.
>
Agreed, this seems like a reasonable proposal. I personally will refrain
from posting pro Xbox and or anti Gamecube remarks in this Gamecube
newsgroup, all while keeping an eye on those cross posts..
Logical/reasonable opinions are fine though, I don't think anyone has a
right to tell either of us we're not allowed to post opinions on certain
matters, etc. Truce from here on in.
Danzego
I see the whole fanboy vs. troll debate as pretty simple (if not just a tad
longwinded).
A fanboy is one who "waves the flag" for a system in an enthusiastic manner,
period. I'm a fanboy of two systems (PS2 and Gamecube) at the current
moment, whereas I look down upon the XBox (for various reasons that aren't
important here). The point is that none of you in this NG (or any other) can
say anything to me that would have me believe that the PS2 isn't a wonderful
system. Granted, I'm not prone to believing that it's flawless or anything
like that (I do know it's hard to program for and I sure would have liked
some of the upcoming blockbuster games at or near launch), but I still love
the system despite that. The same goes for me and my opinion of the 'Cube.
A troll is someone who says negative things to get a rise out of the
inhabitants of a newsgroup. Mind you, if I was just dissatisfied with my
'Cube experience and decided to post it, it wouldn't necessarily be
trolling. Yet, if I repeatedly made it a point to shove it down your throats
in an attempt to get a reaction, THEN the very same thing can be considered
trolling.
It doesn't even have to be a newsgroup of a different topic than where I
base myself out of. Based on the fact that I know this NG has quite a few
residents of the UK, if I said simply "you limeys suck!!!!" (sorry about the
slander, guys; making a point here), that would be trolling. The same would
apply if they started by saying "you rednecks suck" (or whatever anti-US
slang you prefer). BUT, if they were RETALIATING because of what I said and
left it at that without trying to bait me more, then that really wouldn't be
trolling on their part would it? So even though the true denizens of this NG
(minus trolls) stand together under one common topic, I could conceivably
troll it. So I guess, in short, trolling is just saying negative things in
an attempt to bait people into a flame.
Now as far as crossposting is concerned: In the case of what we're talking
about, the main topic is going to a NG and starting shit with it's users.
Now say someone sends a troll message here and includes other newsgroups in
the post. Personally, I believe a crosspost doesn't have to be left intact
on the reply as the person crossposting in the first place will come to this
NG to checkout his replies if he's trolling in the first place. If we were
to get a constant STREAM of crossposts originating from the XBox newsgroup,
I think at that point they're just doing it to show off to their own kind
and the crosspost could reasonably be left intact on the reply/flame. No
different than simple retaliation at that point. Returning a crosspost in
the name of retaliation isn't trolling until you ARE actually trolling
during the course of the thread in question.
flo...@usit.net
Agreed
flounda
Erik Bondurant
Good example is teemoney. In the PS2 newsgroup he is always writes that the
PS2 sucks and that X-Box rules. He offers no legitimate reasons and often
delves into name calling.
Fanboy: One who has no peticular hate for another console but is firmly set
on one console. Will react strongly to an insult to the console of which
they are a fanboy.
Trolls are inexcusable wastes of air, but Fanboys are just a little
close-minded but relatively good intentioned.
EB
Pvt. Miha ł
"Erik Bondurant" <ai...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B74577D5.2ED1%ai...@home.com...
Awesome, i always knew i was a fanboy :o)
Joe Ottoson
> Good example is teemoney. In the PS2 newsgroup he is always writes that
the
> PS2 sucks and that X-Box rules. He offers no legitimate reasons and often
> delves into name calling.
>
> Fanboy: One who has no peticular hate for another console but is firmly
set
> on one console. Will react strongly to an insult to the console of which
> they are a fanboy.
No. A fanboy will adamantly defend their platform of choice regardless of
logic. Some will even start harboring strange and irrational hatreds of the
competition if they perceive it to be a threat to their console of choice.
They're just as pointless as trolls. They just take up more space in the
guise of someone who might be reasonable, but is really stark raving mad.
Pvt. Miha ł
>
>A fanboy will adamantly defend their platform of choice regardless of
> logic.
But their choice comes from logic. Duh. snuh? xuh?
Joe Ottoson
Pvt. Miha ł <mike-n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:EIVT6.44634$DG1.7...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
>
> >
> >A fanboy will adamantly defend their platform of choice regardless of
> > logic.
>
> But their choice comes from logic. Duh. snuh? xuh?
Uh, no. There is no inherent logic in devoting your life to a hunk of
plastic. Sorry.
Pvt. Miha ł
"Joe Ottoson" <aj...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:ZMVT6.1254$4Y4.4...@news.uswest.net...
I didnt see "devotion of life to consoles" in the definition.
Btw, there is reason why I am a fan of Nintendo over the others. I have a
Dreamcast, and other systems so it's not like I'm extreme or anything.
Basically, they produce the games i enjoy and i think also they have the
best system out there. That's my opinion, but i do my research and through
that i decide, it just happens that every time it happens to be nintendo.
Hmm....that may say something...
Joe Ottoson
>
> "Joe Ottoson" <aj...@uswest.net> wrote in message
> news:ZMVT6.1254$4Y4.4...@news.uswest.net...
> >
> > Pvt. Miha ł <mike-n...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:EIVT6.44634$DG1.7...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > >A fanboy will adamantly defend their platform of choice regardless of
> > > > logic.
> > >
> > > But their choice comes from logic. Duh. snuh? xuh?
> >
> > Uh, no. There is no inherent logic in devoting your life to a hunk of
> > plastic. Sorry.
>
> I didnt see "devotion of life to consoles" in the definition.
> Btw, there is reason why I am a fan of Nintendo over the others. I have a
> Dreamcast, and other systems so it's not like I'm extreme or anything.
If so, you're a piss poor fanboy. A true fanboy is as reviled as a hardcore
gamer. Nobody in their right mind actually aspires to either position.
> Basically, they produce the games i enjoy and i think also they have the
> best system out there. That's my opinion, but i do my research and
through
> that i decide, it just happens that every time it happens to be nintendo.
> Hmm....that may say something...
Arg. Blarx? ungh? uxa? You do no real research. You spank whatever monkey
Nitnedo tells you to spank. Urooo. Guh? Shux? Humpmiyamoto? ;)
Really though, liking a company and irrationally worshipping a company are
two very different things.
Zackman
lasts a little longer.
-Z-
<flo...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:3b201c7f...@news.onemain.com...
-*harmonix³*-
Pvt. Miha ł
Pvt. Miha ł
"-*harmonixł*-" <peque...@nospam.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:KoWT6.70972$ML4.5...@nnrp4.clara.net...
blank reply time!
bligmerk
fanboy - the boy that comes to clean the fans in consoles and PC's
Jetbolt
batboys distribute bats.
--
"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have - from the nations
that are around you, from them you may buy male and females slaves."
- Leviticus 25:44
"bligmerk" <zplo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2b9f7e13.01060...@posting.google.com...
Phil Da Lickł
> am a Cube supporter. But I will refrain from posting pro Cube
> sentiments in your newsgroup, unless it is specifically in response to
> a crosspost or if it only involves an opinion on the X-Box itself.
Forget it, he's a total hypocrit.
Phil.
Phil Da Lickł
That argument cuts both ways does it not?
Phil Da Lickł
Brilliant! You've managed to both contradict and slag yourself off in the
same thread! Genius!
Daniel
guess...and well Teemoney hasn't been here for a while so perhaps peace has
a real chance... :-)
--
- Daniel J. Dobson
"Zackman" <zac...@SPAMISEVILearthling.net> wrote in message
news:QmWT6.116071$Ub.13...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
Herman McClain
Joe Ottoson
Herman McClain <sa...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:3B212030...@juno.com...
> Its just like rooting for the ball team.
Is there much logic to choosing a fave?
Pvt. Miha ł
Go away you bridge dweller.
Herman McClain
First of all...Nintendo Entertainment System: DELUXE
complete with R.O.B. My first game bought was Excitebike.
My point is...You had to have lived back in the mid 80's to understand
my bias toward Nintendo Japan.I've never forgotten those days and nights
infront of the tube. They've made such a HUGE impact on the way we play
video games. How could Atari not see Nintendo revolutionary is beyond
me!
This is probably where I get my hatred towards American consoles and
game
developers -- we're so arrogant we don't pay attention to creativity.
All we care
about is "picking noses" and "farting"! This brings me to wonder what
the fuck is
MicroSoft doing in the console business, anyway! I thought they were
handling
the PC buisness well enough to turn a profit. Guess not...It was clearly
evident
at E3 '01 X-Box didn't have a "showstopper". What, ABBE 2?!!! Gimmie a
fuckin
break! They've might as well brought out BOOGERMAN and slapped a
"Mature"
sticker on the BOX! $299 is a rip for the X-Box -- now that PlayStation
2 is out.
Aleast you get a DVD player from the get-go and it'll be cheaper by
then!
It gonna cost you an additional $30 for a remote device to run DVD on
the BOX?!
What kind of shit is that?! Sources say 12% of U.S. homes already have a
DVD player. For $299 without any inspiring titles -- wouldn't you at
least
make your system accessible to DVD functions out the box?! Ontop of
that,
MS is releasing X-Box just TWO friggin' days after GameCube what kind of
strategy is that?! Can you say: SUICIDE
Herman McClain
JPM, III
comments, usually sarcastic or spiteful, just to get a reaction from the
not-so-regular visitors of the group, or just to piss someone off. A fanboy
is one who is close-minded to a particular issue; he simply loves what he
loves and defends it mercilessly, despite the fact that all logic and reason
is against him. (Without the logic to undermine his position, you can never
know if a fanboy is a fanboy or just proud.) You know, sort of like the
entire Democratic [Socialist] Party in America, defending their actions
despite reason being against them. (Obviously not ever action, but quite a
bit of them.)
Joe Ottoson
> Plenty...
Yeah, hometown...
Edward Anderson
many of these responses. You can also see a dogmatic, almost rabid LOVE for
the thing. I'd say these are signs of what people are calling "fanboy." To
me, the "fanboy" phenom. is similar to the thing you see with religious or
political ideologies. There are zealots who grab hold of something, believe
in it totally, almost make a god out of it, wrap their lives around it
(lives without much direction or self-respect previously, usually), insist
that other positions (religions, consoles, political parties, football
teams, etc.) are BULLSHIT MAAAN, and so forth. Basically, the marks of the
beast here are zealotry, the intensity, and the motive (partly to bolster a
sense of identity and self-worth). Read more in Eric Hoffer's _True
Believer_. For those who don't like psychological analysis, I understand.
Just beware of zealots.
Ed
Gëñë Pøø|ë³
I dunno whether I'm a fanboy or not. I don't hate other consoles, I
might consider a DC (or might have at least) or a PS@ if I saw a reason
to make me want to...I've just chosen Nintendo so far every time because
they have games I want. simple. I don't want an Xbox not because of the
system, but because of the parent company's track record, and because
the games don't appeal to me. is that fanboyism?
*genuinely curious*
Edward Anderson
> I dunno whether I'm a fanboy or not. I don't hate other consoles, I
> might consider a DC (or might have at least) or a PS@ if I saw a reason
> to make me want to...I've just chosen Nintendo so far every time because
> they have games I want. simple. I don't want an Xbox not because of the
> system, but because of the parent company's track record, and because
> the games don't appeal to me. is that fanboyism?
> *genuinely curious*
No, you don't sound like a fanboy to me. You don't have the foam coming out
of your mouth that marks a zealot. And besides, a true fanboy would never
ask the question; he would never wonder whether he was a fanboy or not. He
tells himself he is something else, like enlightened or Right. To him,
there is one true console -- his, of course -- and all the others are
defective and contemptible. I would say that contempt is another mark of
the beast here. It's a sign that the ego is a little too invested. I mean,
we're talking consoles here.
Ed
Ed
The Undead Inquisition
> No, you don't sound like a fanboy to me. You don't have the foam coming out
> of your mouth that marks a zealot. And besides, a true fanboy would never
> ask the question; he would never wonder whether he was a fanboy or not. He
> tells himself he is something else, like enlightened or Right. To him,
> there is one true console -- his, of course -- and all the others are
> defective and contemptible. I would say that contempt is another mark of
> the beast here. It's a sign that the ego is a little too invested. I mean,
> we're talking consoles here.
nicely put....
Pete Calderwood
Basically, he was the opposite of you.
Dai miei incubi e nei miei sogni -
Un' Esistenza Rovinata...
BloodyClericł
> My two cents. You can see the lack of life experience or perspective in
> many of these responses. You can also see a dogmatic, almost rabid LOVE for
> the thing. I'd say these are signs of what people are calling "fanboy."
A better word would have been "fanboyism."
>To
> me, the "fanboy" phenom. is similar to the thing you see with religious or
> political ideologies. There are zealots who grab hold of something, believe
> in it totally,
No. If you believe in a deity you can not parsly believe in it. Zealots are in
fact religous warriors. They look at their chosen faith and use it to claim that
they can fight.
>almost make a god out of it, wrap their lives around it
> (lives without much direction or self-respect previously, usually), insist
> that other positions (religions, consoles, political parties, football
> teams, etc.) are BULLSHIT MAAAN, and so forth. Basically, the marks of the
> beast here are zealotry,
No-one is using their console to kill any-one (in the literal sense ofcourse).
> the intensity, and the motive (partly to bolster a
> sense of identity and self-worth). Read more in Eric Hoffer's _True
> Believer_. For those who don't like psychological analysis, I understand.
> Just beware of zealots.
Yes. Beware of Zealots. They'll try to take out the state that is Rome.
> Ed
>
>
The Undead Inquisition
> >nicely put....
>
> Basically, he was the opposite of you.
>
you don't even know me, or where im coming from .....
retard....
Gëñë Pøø|ë³
>
> I am just going it to clear up a few points.
>
> > My two cents. You can see the lack of life experience or perspective in
> > many of these responses. You can also see a dogmatic, almost rabid LOVE for
> > the thing. I'd say these are signs of what people are calling "fanboy."
>
> A better word would have been "fanboyism."
>
> >To
> > me, the "fanboy" phenom. is similar to the thing you see with religious or
> > political ideologies. There are zealots who grab hold of something, believe
> > in it totally,
>
> No. If you believe in a deity you can not parsly believe in it. Zealots are in
> fact religous warriors. They look at their chosen faith and use it to claim that
> they can fight.
>
> >almost make a god out of it, wrap their lives around it
> > (lives without much direction or self-respect previously, usually), insist
> > that other positions (religions, consoles, political parties, football
> > teams, etc.) are BULLSHIT MAAAN, and so forth. Basically, the marks of the
> > beast here are zealotry,
>
> No-one is using their console to kill any-one (in the literal sense ofcourse).
jes da bes used his to bonk animals over the head so he could make
deviant animal love to them. does that count?
BloodyClericł
"Gëńë Přř|ëł" <pool...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3B24F813...@yahoo.com...
No. The animals never died. Although I am sure they wish they were dead.
Pvt. Miha ł
postmaster@127.0.0.1 Gëñë Pøø|ë³
hee hee hee.
awwwww...you remembered... :)
--
Do NOT reply to my email address unless you want your postmaster to get
it.
reply to poolespam_at_yahoo_dot_com
Pvt. Miha ł
"Gëńë Přř|ëł" <mailto:postm...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:3B25ACE8...@127.0.0.1...
Did i ever. I think its still in my email somewhere.