NEW HOT TOPIC Borg's drop-tow
Lancelot
I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
And yes if this is still possible this is a Unfair feature.
> to just take away one tactic. What I'm trying to say is that the
> existence or inexistence of one tactic doesn't automatically change
> the balance of the game.
NUK trap, NUK trap... I don't understand why namely this particular
tactic causes so many arguments. IMHO, the Borg's drop-tow is a lot
more
unbalancing and "unfair" feature.
> >I just want to know how far must you/I/we/one go before a host
> >feature (rule) is not considered a rule anymore, but a bug?
>
> As I see it, it's a bug if
> 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
> 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be countered.
>
> Neither is the case with the nuk-trap
From this viewpoint, drop-tow IS a bug which should be removed. 1) It
allows the channel to/from moving FCC, which is against the rules; 2)
it
gives to already extremely strong Borgs a huge advantage which CANT be
countered.Golden Dragon
Lancelot
(To e-mail to me change Nospam for Securenet)
Michael Henderson
> :)
> I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
> able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
It is based upon the host order of things, namely that there are two build
phases. One build phase and cloning occurs before chunnelling, the second
afterwards. The second build phase is primarily used after the ship limit
has been reached, thus allowing ships to be built after the combat phase.
To set this up you need to have SB set to build, and a ship set to be
cloned with the required resourses available. During the first build
phase, host checks to see if there is a ship in orbit to be cloned, as
there is nothing happens during the first build phase. If you either
tow-drop a Firecloud in, or use multiple Fireclouds to execute multiple
chunnelling you can remove the cloned ship at it's original from the orbit
of the SB. Using the tow-drop allows one to get around the rule that no
Firecloud may be in orbit with 50+ fuel if cloning is to happen. Once the
second build phase of host arrives, host again checks the orbit to see if
a fuelled Firecloud is in orbit or if there is a ship set to 'cln'. As
there is not, because you've chunnelled them all away, then you are able
to build.
Michael
Lars Dam
Henderson) wrote:
We should expect a host 3.22.027 soon after this i suspect :-)
TW: Why don't you just make an array of 500 booleans in the start of
the hosting, set a bit for the base after each build, and don't build
ships there, if the bit is set? This way double builds will never ever
happen whatever people try out to circumvent it :-)
kr. ld
Donovan
Lanc...@nospam.net wrote:
> :)
>
> I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
> able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
There are two moments in the hostrun when building occurs, and one
moment for cloning. Relevant Host order of actions here is:
1st build
clone
move
chunnel
battle
2nd build
Concluding from tests, during the 1st build phase a base checks to see
if there is a ship present with a “cln” friendly code. If this is the
case, nothing is built but instead later in the hostrun a ship is
cloned. The same thing seems to happen in the 2nd build phase: base
checks if there is a ship set to “cln”. If so, nothing is built.
But if somehow the ship is cloned during the “clone” phase and is then
no longer present during the 2nd build phase, the base will have
already cloned the ship and since there is still a build order pending,
the ship gets built in this phase. So during one hostrun a ship is
cloned and a ship is built. Unfortunately, this is not how things are
meant to be. The only way in which a base should be able to both clone
and build is by the use of priority points (Host also checks for
priority points, but that’s not the issue here).
So far, there are/were a couple of options to make sure the “cln” ship
is there during the clone phase but not anymore during the 2nd building
phase:
1) just fly the ship out of there. This was foreseen or fixed: a ship
set to clone will have it’s warp reset to 0.
2) Tow the ship out of there. This loophole was fixed too: cloned ships
may not be under tow.
3) Chunnel the ship out of there. Discovered/thought of much later than
the first two ways, and fixed with 3.22.024. If there is a Firecloud at
the base ready to chunnel out (50+ fuel) no cloning will occur. This is
checked for in the cloning phase. (note: not sure if a normal build is
granted when cloning is forbidden because of this)
All in all, with a bunch of restrictions, pretty foolproof. Except:
A) Chunnel mechanics.
Chunneling ships chunnel in order of ID. First Firecloud #1 chunnels,
then #2, then #3 and so on. But with each chunnel, all ships at the
chunneling Firecloud’s position chunnel along. So let’s say you have
Firecloud #2 at your base. It has only 1 unit of fuel, so you may
clone. Firecloud #2 chunnels to this Firecloud, taking Firecloud #3
with it. Only after arrival, Firecloud #3 chunnels everything at the
base to Firecloud #4. There are now no more ships at the base; in the
2nd build phase you may build a ship.
B) Tow-dropping a Firecloud
Fireclouds can not chunnel when being towed. However, if the tower runs
out of fuel, the tow is dropped and the Firecloud will start it’s
chunnel. So your base clones a ship, you tow-drop in a Firecloud set to
chunnel (make sure to run out of fuel, aim for the far end of the
warpwell), everything chunnels out and in the 2nd build phase you can
build your ship even though you’ve already cloned.
Conclusion: to totally enforce the clone/build rule, a better cheatfix
is needed. I’m not a programmer, but I suggest putting cloning before
1st build in the host order of actions, and tag a base as having cloned
a ship for the remainder of that hostrun. (disabling the tow-dropping
of Fireclouds is another issue, but would in itself not fix the problem
of cloning and building because it would still leave option A)
> And yes if this is still possible this is a Unfair feature.
I agree (now there's a shocker, ain't it?)
> > As I see it, it's a bug if
> > 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be
> > countered.
> >
> From this viewpoint, drop-tow IS a bug which should be removed. 1) It
> allows the channel to/from moving FCC, which is against the rules; 2)
> it
> gives to already extremely strong Borgs a huge advantage which CANT be
> countered.Golden Dragon
(sidenote: I'm guessing therer should have been some more text after
Golden Dragon?).
Back to the issue: although the towdrop is coherent with the game's
rules (as soon as ship runs out of fuel mission -tow- gets reset to
none-) it is clearly against the 'chunneling Fireclouds may not be
towed' rule.
Although I love this 'feature' I indeed think it is a bug. I think the
only reason to disallow chunneling to or from towed Fireclouds in the
first place was to prevent stuff like this. E.g. One turn you see a
Firecloud some 200 lightyears away, next turn you see that an MBR has
tow-dropped it right up to your doorstep and half a dozen Biocides have
chunneled to it.
But I don't know how one should disable this 'feature'. Check the
Fireclouds position prior to and after movement? If it could be done,
would this also mean movement by Ion storms would disable chunneling?
There would be some logic in it, because somewhere in the docs it says
Ion storms make chunneling risky (never seen any proof of that though).
Donovan
--
Tactics, information, help and much more at
Federal HQ - http://www.xs4all.nl/~donovan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Yo
> Conclusion: to totally enforce the clone/build rule, a better cheatfix
> is needed. I’m not a programmer, but I suggest putting cloning before
> 1st build in the host order of actions, and tag a base as having cloned
> a ship for the remainder of that hostrun. (disabling the tow-dropping
> of Fireclouds is another issue, but would in itself not fix the problem
> of cloning and building because it would still leave option A)
How about having just one build fase, in which either a normal ship is
build or a ship is cloned?
Solutions that complicate things usually are worse then the problems they
solve.
> (sidenote: I'm guessing therer should have been some more text after
> Golden Dragon?).
Golden Dragon is the nick of the guy who wrote that piece of text.
> But I don't know how one should disable this 'feature'. Check the
> Fireclouds position prior to and after movement? If it could be done,
> would this also mean movement by Ion storms would disable chunneling?
> There would be some logic in it, because somewhere in the docs it says
> Ion storms make chunneling risky (never seen any proof of that though).
How about not dropping the tow when out of fuel? Absolute no harm in that
(I think).
Yo.
Donovan
>
>> Conclusion: to totally enforce the clone/build rule, a better cheatfix
>> is needed. I’m not a programmer, but I suggest putting cloning before
>> 1st build in the host order of actions, and tag a base as having cloned
>> a ship for the remainder of that hostrun. (disabling the tow-dropping
>> of Fireclouds is another issue, but would in itself not fix the problem
>> of cloning and building because it would still leave option A)
>
>How about having just one build fase, in which either a normal ship is
>build or a ship is cloned?
Been thinking about that one too. I'm not sure why there are two build
phases either, probably because of the priority queue? If two phases
are needed for this, simply make them both before or both after
battle, along with cloning.
>Solutions that complicate things usually are worse then the problems they
>solve.
>
>> (sidenote: I'm guessing therer should have been some more text after
>> Golden Dragon?).
>
>Golden Dragon is the nick of the guy who wrote that piece of text.
I thought it were Lancelot's own words, with perhaps the mailing
program screwing things up (or Lancelot hiting send too early).
Doesn't really matter.
>> But I don't know how one should disable this 'feature'. Check the
>> Fireclouds position prior to and after movement? If it could be done,
>> would this also mean movement by Ion storms would disable chunneling?
>> There would be some logic in it, because somewhere in the docs it says
>> Ion storms make chunneling risky (never seen any proof of that though).
>
>How about not dropping the tow when out of fuel? Absolute no harm in that
>(I think).
I'm sure there's some evil way to mis-use that (slapping on a towbeam
from a fuelless ship comes to mind) but at a first glance it would be
a solution.
Donovan
VGAP Help, tactics, info, bitmaps and more at
Federal HQ: http://www.xs4all.nl/~donovan
Blackbeard
> Lanc...@nospam.net wrote:
>> I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
>> able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
(snipped the details of how)
>So far, there are/were a couple of options to make sure the ?cln? ship
>is there during the clone phase but not anymore during the 2nd building
>phase:
>1) just fly the ship out of there. This was foreseen or fixed: a ship
>set to clone will have it?s warp reset to 0.
>2) Tow the ship out of there. This loophole was fixed too: cloned ships
>may not be under tow.
>3) Chunnel the ship out of there. Discovered/thought of much later than
Actually, that way was known at about the same time as clone-n-tow
(ISTR it was even reported in the thread discussing it at the time),
but wasn't regarded as important enough to fix.
>All in all, with a bunch of restrictions, pretty foolproof. Except:
(snipped the detail again)
>Conclusion: to totally enforce the clone/build rule, a better cheatfix
>is needed. I?m not a programmer, but I suggest putting cloning before
>1st build in the host order of actions, and tag a base as having cloned
>a ship for the remainder of that hostrun. (disabling the tow-dropping
>of Fireclouds is another issue, but would in itself not fix the problem
>of cloning and building because it would still leave option A)
Personally, I just favour host tracking what has been done - cloning
and building are remembered for the duration of the host run, so that
only one can be done (I favour allowing both with the use of pbps, but
that's a side issue).
Its possible to sidetrack host checking if an add-on that causes ship
movement between the build phases (ie, auxbc) is used, so its better
for the host program to deal with it in a programmed manner.
>> > As I see it, it's a bug if
>> > 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
>> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be
>> > countered.
>> From this viewpoint, drop-tow IS a bug which should be removed. 1) It
>> allows the channel to/from moving FCC, which is against the rules; 2)
>> it
>> gives to already extremely strong Borgs a huge advantage which CANT be
>> countered.Golden Dragon
An easier fix is to disable chunneling altogether. I contend that the
Borg as a race are quite strong enough without it. This 'fix' is
immediately accessible (host option), and anyone disagreeing can
easily opt out by not disabling it.
>Back to the issue: although the towdrop is coherent with the game's
>rules (as soon as ship runs out of fuel mission -tow- gets reset to
>none-) it is clearly against the 'chunneling Fireclouds may not be
>towed' rule.
>Although I love this 'feature' I indeed think it is a bug. I think the
>only reason to disallow chunneling to or from towed Fireclouds in the
>first place was to prevent stuff like this. E.g. One turn you see a
>Firecloud some 200 lightyears away, next turn you see that an MBR has
>tow-dropped it right up to your doorstep and half a dozen Biocides have
>chunneled to it.
When the minimum chunnel distance was 10LY, Borg could easily storm
through minefields with impunity using drop-tow chunnels. By starting
from a safe place (a planet cleaned out of cloakers using glories, for
example), it wasn't even possible to intercept the newly chunneled
(vulnerable) ships.
>But I don't know how one should disable this 'feature'. Check the
>Fireclouds position prior to and after movement? If it could be done,
>would this also mean movement by Ion storms would disable chunneling?
>There would be some logic in it, because somewhere in the docs it says
>Ion storms make chunneling risky (never seen any proof of that though).
How about cancelling missions for lack of fuel before and after the
movement phase (ie, before tow and after chunnel)?
--
Blackbeard.
(replace 'nospam' with 'herrflik' in from address to reply)
John Woo
>Fireclouds can not chunnel when being towed. However, if the tower runs
>out of fuel, the tow is dropped and the Firecloud will start it’s
>chunnel. So your base clones a ship, you tow-drop in a Firecloud set to
>chunnel (make sure to run out of fuel, aim for the far end of the
>warpwell), everything chunnels out and in the 2nd build phase you can
>build your ship even though you’ve already cloned.
>
Just a note on this, I've simmed this 5 times in a local game - EVERY
TIME I set a ship to tow a Firecloud with just enough fuel to get the
the gravity well, and the Firecloud is set to jump out, or even if it
is the receiver, doesn't matter - the TOW BEAM DOES NOT BREAK.
I have unpacked my RST to find that Ship A is in orbit of Planet A,
with 0 fuel, mission Tow, locked on Firecloud B.
Conclusion: There is a rounding error somewhere. The ship ends its
movement with 0.49kt of fuel, but is not rounded down to 0 until host
reaches the pre-combat-fuel check.
So unless this is addressed in another host release, this "bug/unfair
feature" is not available to the borg.
Yo
John Woo wrote:
>
> >B) Tow-dropping a Firecloud
> >Fireclouds can not chunnel when being towed. However, if the tower runs
> >out of fuel, the tow is dropped and the Firecloud will start it’s
> >chunnel. So your base clones a ship, you tow-drop in a Firecloud set to
> >chunnel (make sure to run out of fuel, aim for the far end of the
> >warpwell), everything chunnels out and in the 2nd build phase you can
> >build your ship even though you’ve already cloned.
> >
>
> TIME I set a ship to tow a Firecloud with just enough fuel to get the
> the gravity well, and the Firecloud is set to jump out, or even if it
> is the receiver, doesn't matter - the TOW BEAM DOES NOT BREAK.
>
> I have unpacked my RST to find that Ship A is in orbit of Planet A,
> with 0 fuel, mission Tow, locked on Firecloud B.
>
> Conclusion: There is a rounding error somewhere. The ship ends its
> movement with 0.49kt of fuel, but is not rounded down to 0 until host
> reaches the pre-combat-fuel check.
>
> So unless this is addressed in another host release, this "bug/unfair
> feature" is not available to the borg.
Which host are you using?
Yo.
M.R.Heres
doesn't turn up
on the newsgroup and I get email from the person I replied too, live is
funny.
Lancelot wrote:
> :)
>
> I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
> able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
I thought this was corrected by demanding that cloned ships don't have fuel
and a fire-cloud needs
to have 51kt of fuel for a chunnel in wich 50kt is used for the chunnel.
> And yes if this is still possible this is a Unfair feature.
>
> > to just take away one tactic. What I'm trying to say is that the
> > existence or inexistence of one tactic doesn't automatically change
> > the balance of the game.
>
> NUK trap, NUK trap... I don't understand why namely this particular
> tactic causes so many arguments. IMHO, the Borg's drop-tow is a lot
> more
> unbalancing and "unfair" feature.
Great, the nuke trap assures the privateer of getting what he wants,
he doesn't even need cloackers to rob you..... great, even better to do this
with captured
neurtonic fuel carriers or can he build those things? How cheap can it get?
How does a privateer or other cloacker gain acces to the Borg? Simply fly
to the position of a fire-cloud and you will chunnel with it, only tow
chunnel prevents this. Chunneled ships loose their shields, but keep their
cloacking field, talking about unfair. The other racial advantage, self
repair, sets your ship to w0 so you need to tow it with an other ship.
>
>
> > >I just want to know how far must you/I/we/one go before a host
> > >feature (rule) is not considered a rule anymore, but a bug?
> >
> > As I see it, it's a bug if
> > 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be countered.
> >
> > Neither is the case with the nuk-trap
The rule is that fc are randomized after a transfer of ownership, giveship,
giveplanet.
A ship or planets that has been captured is placed last in the battle order,
the only reason for
the planet to attack is that the ships in front of this order are not
allowed to fight against fuelless ships.
The nuk trap can only be countered if you have a ship with a higher Id or
cloackers.
I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when is it
possible to give orders
to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
>
> From this viewpoint, drop-tow IS a bug which should be removed. 1) It
> allows the channel to/from moving FCC, which is against the rules; 2)
> it
> gives to already extremely strong Borgs a huge advantage which CANT be
> countered.Golden Dragon
The drop tow is by the book, the firecloud isn't being towed at the moment
it chunnels and that
is the main point. You can't chunnel ->while<- it moves.
The Borg are strong, but every race has its weakspots, try to takle the Borg
with free fighter races.
Biocides are very expensive ships. But the importance of this depends on
mineral richness of the game.
There is an alternative for tow-chunnel, fly to 82 ly from the planet you
want to attack, chunnel and fly in. It takes your opponent two turns to
catch you at 82 ly. Tried both, tow chunnel and the 82 ly, tow chunels can
go wrong, with 82 ly succes is assured.
Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose a
ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is 164
and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will still
be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and tow it
(to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
M Heres
Yuri Tsentalovich
> > NUK trap, NUK trap... I don't understand why namely this particular
> > tactic causes so many arguments. IMHO, the Borg's drop-tow is a lot
> > more
> > unbalancing and "unfair" feature.
>
> Great, the nuke trap assures the privateer of getting what he wants,
>
> he doesn't even need cloackers to rob you..... great, even better to
> do this
> with captured
> neurtonic fuel carriers or can he build those things? How cheap can it
> get?
> How does a privateer or other cloacker gain acces to the Borg? Simply
> fly
> to the position of a fire-cloud and you will chunnel with it, only tow
>
> chunnel prevents this. Chunneled ships loose their shields, but keep
> their
> cloacking field, talking about unfair. The other racial advantage,
> self
> repair, sets your ship to w0 so you need to tow it with an other ship.
First of all, privs cant rob with fuel carriers - these vessels do not
have the weapon.Now, lets consider the typical situation: Colonies
(Rebels, EE, Bots...) borrowed a SH from the Birds and are attacking the
Privateer bases. Privs are trying robbing, NUK trap, whatever - every
time cloaked SH transfers fuel to the attacking ship, and it gets away
leaving behind the ruins of SBs. Privs are almost defenseless against
this tactic (the only counterplay is wolfpack, which also has some
problems).
Now, if you remove the NUK-trap, privs will be defenseless not only
against carriers+cloakers, but also carriers+lokis, carriers+Glory
Devices...
> I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
> The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when
> is it
> possible to give orders
> to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
That is the matter of taste. One may think of NUK as an order to shoot
everything in sigh until the next owner changes it.
> The drop tow is by the book, the firecloud isn't being towed at the
> moment
> it chunnels and that
> is the main point. You can't chunnel ->while<- it moves.
> The Borg are strong, but every race has its weakspots, try to takle
> the Borg
> with free fighter races.
> Biocides are very expensive ships. But the importance of this depends
> on
> mineral richness of the game.
> There is an alternative for tow-chunnel, fly to 82 ly from the planet
> you
> want to attack, chunnel and fly in. It takes your opponent two turns
> to
> catch you at 82 ly. Tried both, tow chunnel and the 82 ly, tow chunels
> can
> go wrong, with 82 ly succes is assured.
That is correct. Nevertheless, drop-tow significantly increases the
Borg's ability. From my experience, good players use drop-tow as often
as usual channel.
> Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
> privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose
> a
> ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is
> 164
> and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
> present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will
> still
> be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and
> tow it
> (to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
This sounds bitterly... Did privateers somehow offended you?
Regards, Golden Dragon
M.R.Heres
Yuri Tsentalovich wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> > > NUK trap, NUK trap... I don't understand why namely this particular
> > > tactic causes so many arguments. IMHO, the Borg's drop-tow is a lot
> > > more
> > > unbalancing and "unfair" feature.
> >
> > Great, the nuke trap assures the privateer of getting what he wants,
> >
> > he doesn't even need cloackers to rob you..... great, even better to
> > do this
> > with captured
> > neurtonic fuel carriers or can he build those things? How cheap can it
> > get?
> > How does a privateer or other cloacker gain acces to the Borg? Simply
> > fly
> > to the position of a fire-cloud and you will chunnel with it, only tow
> >
> > chunnel prevents this. Chunneled ships loose their shields, but keep
> > their
> > cloacking field, talking about unfair. The other racial advantage,
> > self
> > repair, sets your ship to w0 so you need to tow it with an other ship.
>
> First of all, privs cant rob with fuel carriers - these vessels do not
> have the weapon.
Okay I forgot about the weapon.
> Now, lets consider the typical situation: Colonies
> (Rebels, EE, Bots...) borrowed a SH from the Birds and are attacking the
> Privateer bases. Privs are trying robbing, NUK trap, whatever - every
> time cloaked SH transfers fuel to the attacking ship, and it gets away
> leaving behind the ruins of SBs. Privs are almost defenseless against
> this tactic (the only counterplay is wolfpack, which also has some
> problems).
> Now, if you remove the NUK-trap, privs will be defenseless not only
> against carriers+cloakers, but also carriers+lokis, carriers+Glory
> Devices...
A far as I can see you only need the nuk trap against the loki and
glory-devices othewise you keep your ships in cloack. Assuming you didn't
want to rob with the the non-cloacking vessels. The SH is then no longer a
thread. It could even work in your advantage: it hangs over a planet and
sees nothing. Against the Lizard you have a problem, loki's combined with
cloackers. Never upset a Lizard I would say :). If you want to use a nuk
trap then get a loki yourself.
I think it is also hihgly unlikely that the Priv operate alone. In the
games I played I encountered robo-MCBR's and privateer Golems (nice ships
for a nuke trap.) and x-tal MCBR's.
Next, the nuk trap doesn't excist in Phost 3.X since it randomizes the fc
of plantets and ships after ownership transfer whetever the otherside
cooperates or not. I never
heared that the privateer is a sitting duck in Phost 3.X games.
Think of mines, they make it impossible for small cloackers to enter. Even
the Dw won't cross 90ly of minefield without thinking twice.
>
> > I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
> > The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when
> > is it
> > possible to give orders
> > to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
>
> That is the matter of taste. One may think of NUK as an order to shoot
> everything in sigh until the next owner changes it.
Still its strange, all fc's are randomized after ownership transfer, except
planetary fc's after batle. That sounds like a bug to me :) yes fix it :)
> > The drop tow is by the book, the firecloud isn't being towed at the
> > moment
> > it chunnels and that
> > is the main point. You can't chunnel ->while<- it moves.
> > The Borg are strong, but every race has its weakspots, try to takle
> > the Borg
> > with free fighter races.
> > Biocides are very expensive ships. But the importance of this depends
> > on
> > mineral richness of the game.
> > There is an alternative for tow-chunnel, fly to 82 ly from the planet
> > you
> > want to attack, chunnel and fly in. It takes your opponent two turns
> > to
> > catch you at 82 ly. Tried both, tow chunnel and the 82 ly, tow chunels
> > can
> > go wrong, with 82 ly succes is assured.
>
> That is correct. Nevertheless, drop-tow significantly increases the
> Borg's ability. From my experience, good players use drop-tow as often
> as usual channel.
True the biggest advantage in my opinion is that you can hide your centre
points very easy with this and that you gain one turn.
I never use it in enemy space. The Cubes won't have shields and would be an
easy target for Virgo's or Rushes or so in the turn they arrive, the
advantage for torpers is however smaller, since they do much more than 1% on
the shields.
>
>
> > Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
> > privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose
> > a
> > ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is
> > 164
> > and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
> > present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will
> > still
> > be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and
> > tow it
> > (to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
>
> This sounds bitterly... Did privateers somehow offended you?
Very loud yes. :(
I know they (priv. or x-tal) are chasing my ships waiting for a mistake to
happen.
I used a regular chunnel once in a webfield, tow chunnel could be tricky
since it could split up the fleet. Next turn the reinforcements where
chunneled in I put all my ships on minesweep (5 ovelaping webmines). Next
turn fire-cloud destroyed by an x-tal ship, it was towed off by a MCBR owned
by the x-tal or privateer (they are good allies).
If this could be continued by them they would destroy all of my fire-clouds
and this would effictivly disable my chunnel advantage. And thereby disable
my biggest advantage in batling a Privateer,X-tal alliance.
>
> Regards, Golden Dragon
M Heres
The Borg are comming to you this autumn :)
Richard McAteer
> Still its strange, all fc's are randomized after ownership transfer, except
> planetary fc's after batle. That sounds like a bug to me :) yes fix it :)
Hmm? I don't recall that being the case. In fact, I am pretty certain
that codes _don't_ change after ownership tranfser. I capture ships all
the time, and the code doesn't change (I think) unless a capture probe
randomly settled on HYP as a friendly code. The code gsN doesn't change
either. Nor do planetary codes, ground attack or planet-attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard McAteer | "This is grain, which any fool can eat, but
Carleton University | for which the Lord intended a more divine means
Amateur Zymurgist | of consumption. Let us give praise to our
| maker and glory to his bounty by learning about
| ... beer" - Friar Tuck, R.H. Prince of Thieves
Email address: rmca...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Bolden
> that codes _don't_ change after ownership tranfser. I capture ships all
> the time, and the code doesn't change (I think) unless a capture probe
> randomly settled on HYP as a friendly code. The code gsN doesn't change
> either. Nor do planetary codes, ground attack or planet-attack.
You are correct, ship codes are NOT randomized. It's amazing how many people
don't even think about that when they get their ships captured and then
wondered how you flew through minefields, beamed cargo, etc. from them. =)
--
Cadman
VGA Planets @ BioHazard
www.innw.net/madjeff/vgaphome.htm
Donovan
<M.R....@cpedu.rug.nl> wrote:
>For this I used a reply to all, when I select 'reply to newsgroup' my reply
>doesn't turn up
>on the newsgroup and I get email from the person I replied too, live is
>funny.
>
>Lancelot wrote:
>
>> :)
>>
>> I have a question how does the borg use the Firecloud drop-tow, to be
>> able to clone a ship and build with latest Tim Host ?
>
> I thought this was corrected by demanding that cloned ships don't have fuel
>and a fire-cloud needs
>to have 51kt of fuel for a chunnel in wich 50kt is used for the chunnel.
Ships set to clone may have fuel, and I'm pretty sure Fireclouds can
also chunnel with only 50 fuel.
> Great, the nuke trap assures the privateer of getting what he wants,
>he doesn't even need cloackers to rob you..... great, even better to do this
>with captured
>neurtonic fuel carriers or can he build those things? How cheap can it get?
Neutronic fuel carriers don't have beams.
> How does a privateer or other cloacker gain acces to the Borg? Simply fly
>to the position of a fire-cloud and you will chunnel with it, only tow
>chunnel prevents this. Chunneled ships loose their shields, but keep their
>cloacking field, talking about unfair. The other racial advantage, self
>repair, sets your ship to w0 so you need to tow it with an other ship.
Eh? How about you just fly to his starbases? Only minefields will
prevent this, and just as likewise can minefields around Fireclouds
prevent you from flying to them.
>The rule is that fc are randomized after a transfer of ownership, giveship,
>giveplanet.
There's no such rule. And no this thread is not about Phost.
To quote yourself: (If only I could get a dime for every time I
mailed this :) )
>A ship or planets that has been captured is placed last in the battle order,
Planets are ALWAYS last in the battle order.
>the only reason for
>the planet to attack is that the ships in front of this order are not
>allowed to fight against fuelless ships.
>The nuk trap can only be countered if you have a ship with a higher Id or
>cloackers.
>I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
>The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when is it
>possible to give orders
>to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
NUK does't tell other races to fight, it tells the planet to fight.
Just as the docs say. If the docs had said "the planet will fight
others as long as it's owned by the race that set the NUK code" you'd
be right.
>> From this viewpoint, drop-tow IS a bug which should be removed. 1) It
>> allows the channel to/from moving FCC, which is against the rules; 2)
>> it
>> gives to already extremely strong Borgs a huge advantage which CANT be
>> countered.Golden Dragon
>
> The drop tow is by the book, the firecloud isn't being towed at the moment
>it chunnels and that
>is the main point. You can't chunnel ->while<- it moves.
I agree it's by the book, but it clearly violates the rule that a
chunneling Firecloud may not be towed. And I can only think of one
reason for that rule, which is to prevent actions accomplished by the
drop-tow.
>The Borg are strong, but every race has its weakspots, try to takle the Borg
>with free fighter races.
>Biocides are very expensive ships. But the importance of this depends on
>mineral richness of the game.
>There is an alternative for tow-chunnel, fly to 82 ly from the planet you
>want to attack, chunnel and fly in. It takes your opponent two turns to
>catch you at 82 ly. Tried both, tow chunnel and the 82 ly, tow chunels can
>go wrong, with 82 ly succes is assured.
82 LY is less of a surprise (gives your enemy one extra turn to gather
forces, though tow-dropping straight into a planet is usually not a
good idea with the shields being down after chunnel), and succes is
never assured. Your opponent can almost always lay (web)minefields to
try and do you some damage on the way in or stop you altogether.
>Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
>privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose a
>ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is 164
>and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
>present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will still
>be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and tow it
>(to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
If you're going to fly cloakers up to waiting Fireclouds anyway, fly
in a pack of them and rob anything that has chunneled in. If you just
happen to have flown up to a Firecloud that is just about to chunnel
away, all the better.
If you just fly in one cloaker, don't tow the enemy ship to a nuk-trap
planet (you're not going to tow out a Loki, right?) but simply tow it
to a wolfpack.
Donovan
wrote:
>>B) Tow-dropping a Firecloud
>>Fireclouds can not chunnel when being towed. However, if the tower runs
>>out of fuel, the tow is dropped and the Firecloud will start it’s
>>chunnel. So your base clones a ship, you tow-drop in a Firecloud set to
>>chunnel (make sure to run out of fuel, aim for the far end of the
>>warpwell), everything chunnels out and in the 2nd build phase you can
>>build your ship even though you’ve already cloned.
>>
>
>Just a note on this, I've simmed this 5 times in a local game - EVERY
>TIME I set a ship to tow a Firecloud with just enough fuel to get the
>the gravity well, and the Firecloud is set to jump out, or even if it
>is the receiver, doesn't matter - the TOW BEAM DOES NOT BREAK.
I'm doing it regularly with 3.22.026, and have also done this with
older Host version. So you either have a newer version (unofficial, it
would mean Tim is thinking of fixing this bug/feature) or you're
trusting your client program too much.
The client predicts your estimated fuel use, but is usually a bit
wrong. What you do, when coming from the west of a planet, you set
your waypoint one or two lightyears into the warpwell, short of the
planet (i.e. at the left side of the planet). If your client says
you'll need 40 fuel, remove all but 40 fuel. If you had far more than
40 fuel, client will now say you only need 38 or so. Remove all but 38
fuel, and then set your waypoint to the far end of the gravity well:
two or three lightyears (be careful to stay in the well) east of the
planet. This will compensate for errors in the fuel estimate, and make
sure you succeed.
Blackbeard
>Lancelot wrote:
>> > to just take away one tactic. What I'm trying to say is that the
>> > existence or inexistence of one tactic doesn't automatically change
>> > the balance of the game.
>> NUK trap, NUK trap... I don't understand why namely this particular
>> tactic causes so many arguments. IMHO, the Borg's drop-tow is a lot
>> more
>> unbalancing and "unfair" feature.
> Great, the nuke trap assures the privateer of getting what he wants,
>he doesn't even need cloackers to rob you..... great, even better to do this
>with captured
Not at all assured, in fact. The ways to beat it have been, well
beaten to death over the last few days. Its not generally regarded as
a balance issue (maybe its not logical, or realistic. This game is
littered with illogical and unrealistic details ... it just doesn't
matter, it works).
> How does a privateer or other cloacker gain acces to the Borg? Simply fly
>to the position of a fire-cloud and you will chunnel with it, only tow
>chunnel prevents this. Chunneled ships loose their shields, but keep their
>cloacking field, talking about unfair. The other racial advantage, self
>repair, sets your ship to w0 so you need to tow it with an other ship.
To be fair, no-one would seriously consider a non-tow chunnel in a
dangerous situation. In my (very short) experience of being the borg,
something like 95% of chunnels are done by drop-tow, and most of the
remaining 5% were done for convenience (or to avoid dangers of messing
up in inter-race co-operation). And in my case, under a lot of web
cover, for the most part.
Self repair is barely relevant now, chunnel is so much more effective
at getting cripples combat-ready.
(attributions lost in history)
>> > >I just want to know how far must you/I/we/one go before a host
>> > >feature (rule) is not considered a rule anymore, but a bug?
>> > As I see it, it's a bug if
>> > 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
Sorry? Ultimately, its a bug if Tim says it is.
>> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be countered.
So web mines are a bug. I guess thats one way to try and counter them.
>I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
>The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when is it
>possible to give orders
>to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
Captured planets retain the previous owners orders until you get a
chance to issue new ones. Thats especially frustrating with taxes, but
its the way things are - its not really that illogical to say that new
orders take time to be implemented (after all, a planet is a big
place).
>The Borg are strong, but every race has its weakspots, try to takle the Borg
>with free fighter races.
>Biocides are very expensive ships. But the importance of this depends on
>mineral richness of the game.
Not greatly - Borg can live off alchemy so very easily. 50 fuel can
transfer as much as you want as far as you want. Granted, bios _are_
pricey, but the economy behind them is unparalleled.
>Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
>privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose a
>ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is 164
>and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
>present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will still
>be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and tow it
>(to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
Privs are a tough proposition for Borg either way. No reason privs
can't rob and steal the firecloud before the chunnel rather than risk
riding it into possible danger. Alternatively, perform their own
drop-tow of the firecloud.
Cocomax
writes:
>>Just a note on this, I've simmed this 5 times in a local game - EVERY
>>TIME I set a ship to tow a Firecloud with just enough fuel to get the
>>the gravity well, and the Firecloud is set to jump out, or even if it
>>is the receiver, doesn't matter - the TOW BEAM DOES NOT BREAK.
>
>I'm doing it regularly with 3.22.026, and have also done this with
>older Host version. So you either have a newer version (unofficial, it
>would mean Tim is thinking of fixing this bug/feature) or you're
>trusting your client program too much.
Set up a sim of the Borg Drop-Tow under host 3.22.026. Send me the host data
files from just before the host run and I will find the error and remove it
from the game for good.
Tim
Kevin D. Foster
>
[snip!]
>
> Privs are a tough proposition for Borg either way. No reason privs
> can't rob and steal the firecloud before the chunnel rather than risk
> riding it into possible danger. Alternatively, perform their own
> drop-tow of the firecloud.
Unless the Borg can get their hands on a Loki. Then they become the
Privateers worst enemy. The offensive drop-chunnel back to a Loki is
the perfect defense against the now infamous NUK trap.
--
-=[ Keeper ]=- ICQ# 8105495
kee...@lycosmail.com kdfo...@home.com
http://members.home.com/keepershaven/
Donovan
(Blackbeard) wrote:
>(attributions lost in history)
>>> > >I just want to know how far must you/I/we/one go before a host
>>> > >feature (rule) is not considered a rule anymore, but a bug?
>>> > As I see it, it's a bug if
>>> > 1) it allows something which is against the rules (Borg trick)
>
>Sorry? Ultimately, its a bug if Tim says it is.
True. That's why that line started with "as I see it". And both points
were only meant as criteria for the more sneaky tactics like
nuk-traps, which some seem to consider bugs.
>>> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be countered.
>
>So web mines are a bug. I guess thats one way to try and counter them.
Nah, web mines can be countered. Now the Feds getting double taxes,
there's a bug. Not a damn thing you can do about it :-)
But seriously: stuff that is clearly defined is ofcourse never a bug,
I really only meant to address such things as NUK-traps and the likes.
M.R.Heres
Basicly anny method by wich the warp is set to 0 and/or breaks the tow before the
chunnel phase of the Host/Phost:
1- Drop-chunnel
2- Web hit
3- Mine hit that kills the towing ship
4- Self repair??? (No you don't move, but it is a surprise for the Borg-player)
Some addons could do it, not sure I never used addons:
It must comply with statement above to work:
1- Addon that enables the Robot pawn-baseship to stop and decloack all ship
within a certain radius.
2- Addon the allows the Gorbi to decloack and suckin small ships.
More idea's ?
Donovan wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:02:03 +0200, "M.R.Heres"
> <M.R....@cpedu.rug.nl> wrote:
>
>
> >Lancelot wrote:
> >
>
>
>
> >The rule is that fc are randomized after a transfer of ownership, giveship,
> >giveplanet.
>
> There's no such rule. And no this thread is not about Phost.
> To quote yourself: (If only I could get a dime for every time I
> mailed this :) )
Time for me to study the docs again i gues :( .
>
> >A ship or planets that has been captured is placed last in the battle order,
>
> Planets are ALWAYS last in the battle order.
How about NUK and ATT as far as I understand then the planet will fight before
your ships in orbit, or is this also a difference between Phost and Host?
Ps. in Phost NUK is seen as fc 000, you can place ships in front of the planet's
batle order by using negative fc's.
> >the only reason for
> >the planet to attack is that the ships in front of this order are not
> >allowed to fight against fuelless ships.
> >The nuk trap can only be countered if you have a ship with a higher Id or
> >cloackers.
> >I would like to add: 3) If it is unlogical.
> >The nuke trap is unlogical, it tels to other race to fight. Since when is it
> >possible to give orders
> >to enemy forces? Only the Birds should have this ability imho.
>
> NUK does't tell other races to fight, it tells the planet to fight.
> Just as the docs say. If the docs had said "the planet will fight
> others as long as it's owned by the race that set the NUK code" you'd
> be right.
Okay, I just think it is very strange but that is an opinion.
>
> I agree it's by the book, but it clearly violates the rule that a
> chunneling Firecloud may not be towed. And I can only think of one
> reason for that rule, which is to prevent actions accomplished by the
> drop-tow.
>There is an alternative for tow-chunnel, fly to 82 ly from the planet you
> >want to attack, chunnel and fly in. It takes your opponent two turns to
> >catch you at 82 ly. Tried both, tow chunnel and the 82 ly, tow chunels can
> >go wrong, with 82 ly succes is assured.
>
> 82 LY is less of a surprise (gives your enemy one extra turn to gather
> forces, though tow-dropping straight into a planet is usually not a
> good idea with the shields being down after chunnel), and succes is
> never assured. Your opponent can almost always lay (web)minefields to
> try and do you some damage on the way in or stop you altogether.
>
Depends on the settings and host. In Phost you can set that ships beyond a
certain techlevel are not slowed by normal minehits. This means you go to the 82
ly, chunnel in your group then set one Cube to tow the other. You will reach the
planet if you get less than 10 mine hits on a single ship. This makes it
difficult to stop a few cubes with 82 ehrm 79 ly (warp well) of normal mines. I'm
curious how it works in Host.
> >Last point: the main reason for me to allow the tow-chunnel is the
> >privateer. Without it and with normal tow the Borg would risk to loose a
> >ship every time he chunnels, since the towing strength of the MCBR is 164
> >and the Cube 81 (if I'm not mistaken). You simply fly cloacked to the
> >present position of the fire-cloud. If it performs a chunnel it will still
> >be there with an entire fleet from wich you can pick your victem and tow it
> >(to a planet) with a (nuk) trap waiting.
>
> If you're going to fly cloakers up to waiting Fireclouds anyway, fly
> in a pack of them and rob anything that has chunneled in. If you just
> happen to have flown up to a Firecloud that is just about to chunnel
> away, all the better.
>
> If you just fly in one cloaker, don't tow the enemy ship to a nuk-trap
> planet (you're not going to tow out a Loki, right?) but simply tow it
> to a wolfpack.
>
My idea was that the Priv. simply follows a fc in case it chunnels. And indeed a
nuk trap is not needed.
>
> Donovan
>
> VGAP Help, tactics, info, bitmaps and more at
> Federal HQ: http://www.xs4all.nl/~donovan
M Heres
Blackbeard
>(Blackbeard) wrote:
>>>> > 2) gives one race a particular advantage that can hardly be countered.
>>So web mines are a bug. I guess thats one way to try and counter them.
>Nah, web mines can be countered. Now the Feds getting double taxes,
>there's a bug. Not a damn thing you can do about it :-)
Seriously, there is no real counter to webs. Massed sweeping works -
when you are inside a web. Even that is blunted by webs thrown (and
trimmed) ahead of an advance.
>But seriously: stuff that is clearly defined is ofcourse never a bug,
>I really only meant to address such things as NUK-traps and the likes.
No worries, just felt like stirring it up ;)