Early Game (was: Re: 1st game - need tips...)
alk
Blackbeard wrote:
>schar...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de (alk) wrote:
>>>If the feds can't afford tech 8 hulls, who will be able to afford
>>>cruiser killers?
>>Each fighter race (inc. EE). The Patriot, SSD and Instrumentality will toast
>>it. (Plus the Patriot being cheap, the Instrumentality being super-tough (
>>as tech6) and the SSD having its assault)
>Patriot is very fragile, expensive on minerals, and good for one use
>only. With default host settings, it will usually go down to a nebula.
If a Pariot is expensive on minerals ... What is a Nebula ?
One Engine, 2 (cheap9 Beams) and 90 Tri, 60 Mlb and 300 Supplies ...
That's cheap ! And look what happens, if the E-S-Bonus is activated.
>SSD can be taken down by a pair of them; its the fighters on the SSD
>that are the problem - only 5 per base per turn free, and only loadable
>at a base.
Yes, that's true. But due to the rather small cargo of the SSD, the slow
fighterproduction is not the worst. It's really hard to reload them.
>(Nebula had MK7s and lasers - beams are irrelevant though, since all
>opponents had fighters, host version 3.22.010).
Mk7 ??? Even if you half the money needed to bring a base to these
techlevels, and have the money needed to produce the ships ....
It's not early-game then anymore ...
>I admit, Instrumentality is much too tough for a nebula, though .
>>Nebulas are good as armed settlers, heavily armed for settlers.
>>Or as a very good minelayer, but I wouldn't call it a cruiser, rather a
>>destroyer.
>In any case, it is quite an effective ship; fights well and lots of
>cargo space.
It fights well for a Fed in the beginning. The effectiveness comes through
the cargo (and the Feds Super-Refit ...) as a minelayer.
>>>The idea is, they get there before their neighbours, then take an
>>>aggressive border. These early ships can't take out starbases (well, not
>>>if they are defended, anyway), but they can wreak havoc on development.
>>>Cripple development, and the race wil fall later.
>>I don't know why especially the Feds should get there before the others
>>what makes them faster as the other races ?
>Get developed faster, I meant. Economic power (tax money) is the grease
>for it.
I don't think money is all. It is much, you need it, but it's not all you
need.
>>>EE can be forced back. Early on, they are very short of fighters for
>>>escorts, and both the SSD and SSF are soft targets in combat.
>>I don't count the SSD as a soft target in early-game. 8 Blasters and
>>30 Fighters ( and colonists) will make this an awesome weapon.
>It will defeat a single cruiser, but it gets pasted while it does it -
>so it can barely move, never mind do an imperial assault. It would be
>better to use SSCs.
Again with no ES-Bonus and Mk7, I suppose ?
Have a look on some other Scenarios, and the SSD just needs a few supplies
to be deadly again.
>> Especially if they come in two- or three-packs. (which doesn't take so long
>> remember the EE normaly develops its torp-tech lately, so there is "spare"
>> money for the expensive SSDs...
>
>Pay for 3 SSDs, and watch a Missouri paste them all. Those 90 ftrs are
>the real rub, though.
>(It's really not that clear-cut though, as a lot of expensive torps -
>about 20 per SSD - are needed to kill it)
Make a list about the expenses !!
A Missouri with Mk7 and 60 Torps, plus the base needed to build it ...
That's not that cheap, neither on money nor on minerals. And if you
can force the Fed to hold such a ship back as a base defense, will he
be able to counterattack ? Or just defend his other planets, esp. as you
exactly know where to strike ...
>>Most of the races won't fight open. And why should the others stop in their
>>development. Other enemy races' ships can fight the fed cruisers.
>Of course, they can fight. I contend that the feds can build ships that
>punch above their cost, and build them early enough to gain a strategic
>advantage.
They do at high techlevels (for hulls) and only if their torptech is at
least 5. These ships are punching hard, but I don't agree that you can build
them early enough, so the others cannot counter this threat.
>>(Or better: steal them, or avoid them and wreck havoc on the economy)
>Avoid them and watch them wreak havoc on their own economy? Avoiding
>occasional heavy ships is viable, but avoiding mere cruisers is asking
>for defeat, surely?
As long as they can't cripple your base, and your base has enough resources
for a few turns ... I don't think so. Remember it takes just one Klingon
to stop your (fed) base... And if you see one (or 2 or 3) SSD advancing,
would you walk on into the enemy empire, or try to defend your base.
(still talking of early-game)
>>Don't you think, the (possible) lack of minerals is a point ?
>Yes, Feds need to be mineral efficient early on. Using light ships
>(exploiting their mass bonus), and higher tech torps helps, but
>utlimately, minerals aren't *that* scarce.
Yes, of course.
It all depends on the richness (minerals/natives) of your early found
planets.
>Lizards have the minerals as well as money - the best of all positions -
>but they have weak ships.
Which they don't need, except there's a Borg around.
But yes, you're right.
F alk
Blackbeard
schar...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de (alk) wrote:
>Blackbeard wrote:
>>Patriot is very fragile, expensive on minerals, and good for one use
>>only. With default host settings, it will usually go down to a nebula.
>If a Pariot is expensive on minerals ... What is a Nebula ?
>One Engine, 2 (cheap9 Beams) and 90 Tri, 60 Mlb and 300 Supplies ...
>That's cheap ! And look what happens, if the E-S-Bonus is activated.
Nebula is more expensive to build (significantly if you take the feds
mineral restrictions into account), but cheaper to run - the really
heavy cost is in those fighters. Any real fight costs, even a victory;
its an expensive way to go.
Of course, mineral cost is not a great problem if you play rich
galaxies...
Now E-S bonus is another matter; it changes the whole dynamic of the
game (and can be a hefty bonus for the feds in its own right). With
enough E-S bonus, feds should hang back and use thors. Completely
different strategies are required.
>>SSD can be taken down by a pair of them; its the fighters on the SSD
>>that are the problem - only 5 per base per turn free, and only loadable
>>at a base.
>Yes, that's true. But due to the rather small cargo of the SSD, the slow
>fighterproduction is not the worst. It's really hard to reload them.
They are only used in ship combat, though, assuming the empire player
refuses to fight planets - that helps. But then the empire player has
to be careful of tow ambushes.
>>(Nebula had MK7s and lasers - beams are irrelevant though, since all
>>opponents had fighters, host version 3.22.010).
>Mk7 ??? Even if you half the money needed to bring a base to these
>techlevels, and have the money needed to produce the ships ....
>It's not early-game then anymore ...
Depends on what you regard as early game, I suppose. Those techs are
required for facing these opponents, though).
>>Get developed faster, I meant. Economic power (tax money) is the grease
>>for it.
>I don't think money is all. It is much, you need it, but it's not all you
>need.
Nice planets and weak neighbours help, for sure.
>>>I don't count the SSD as a soft target in early-game. 8 Blasters and
>>>30 Fighters ( and colonists) will make this an awesome weapon.
>>It will defeat a single cruiser, but it gets pasted while it does it -
>>so it can barely move, never mind do an imperial assault. It would be
>>better to use SSCs.
>Again with no ES-Bonus and Mk7, I suppose ?
>Have a look on some other Scenarios, and the SSD just needs a few supplies
>to be deadly again.
Well, it can smash weak opposition, especially if bolstered by E-S
bonus. But how does the SSD carry supplies alongside fighters and ground
attack clans?
>>> Especially if they come in two- or three-packs. (which doesn't take so long
>>> remember the EE normaly develops its torp-tech lately, so there is "spare"
>>> money for the expensive SSDs...
>>Pay for 3 SSDs, and watch a Missouri paste them all. Those 90 ftrs are
>>the real rub, though.
>>(It's really not that clear-cut though, as a lot of expensive torps -
>>about 20 per SSD - are needed to kill it)
>Make a list about the expenses !!
>A Missouri with Mk7 and 60 Torps, plus the base needed to build it ...
>That's not that cheap, neither on money nor on minerals.
Well, you can re-use the base - that helps <g>. You need tech 8 in hulls
and torps,and preferably engine tech too.
60 torps is 2000MCr, thats the ongoing cost. Pricey, but not impossible.
> And if you
>can force the Fed to hold such a ship back as a base defense, will he
>be able to counterattack ? Or just defend his other planets, esp. as you
>exactly know where to strike ...
Ah well, the idea of going on the offensive is to prevent just such a
situation. Make the empire player dance to your tune.
>>Of course, they can fight. I contend that the feds can build ships that
>>punch above their cost, and build them early enough to gain a strategic
>>advantage.
>They do at high techlevels (for hulls) and only if their torptech is at
>least 5. These ships are punching hard, but I don't agree that you can build
>them early enough, so the others cannot counter this threat.
Oh well, it will take a game to find out.
>>>(Or better: steal them, or avoid them and wreck havoc on the economy)
>>Avoid them and watch them wreak havoc on their own economy? Avoiding
>>occasional heavy ships is viable, but avoiding mere cruisers is asking
>>for defeat, surely?
>As long as they can't cripple your base, and your base has enough resources
>for a few turns ... I don't think so. Remember it takes just one Klingon
>to stop your (fed) base... And if you see one (or 2 or 3) SSD advancing,
>would you walk on into the enemy empire, or try to defend your base.
>(still talking of early-game)
Keep going! New ships can be built to defend against the counter attack.
Nobody ever won a war by wimping out at the first signs of retaliation.
Blackbeard.
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