Chimerstry or Obfuscate ?
Jeremiah
HI !
I was recently asked an interesting question. Which is better Chimerstry
or Obfuscate ? The fact that both able to cloak though by different means.
Suggestions ??
Jack Rogers
this one is gonna start a war I just know it
OK here it is in a nut shell ( to my reconin' any ways )
obfuscate don't cost will power and is more subconciously used than
chimistry, it also effects all watching as opposed to just the chosen
target ( which chimistry is annoying for )
however chimistry is more powerfull at the higher levels ( as you start
doing things like not requiring willpower to use mass reality (
probably a level 7 that one ) and doing things like not including your
aura in your opponents perseptions, creating demolition balls just round
the corner, pulling out a flame thrower from the boot of a car nearby (
ah... memorys! )
these are things that obfuscate was not ment to do, but difficultys and
such like ( to my reconing ) represent this
my self ? I would say chimistry is better as it can perform all of the
obfuscate powers and can make you immune to obfuscate and deception (
level 8 I think ) still you makes you character you takes your chances
in truth another question could be "what is better potence or celerity"
or maybe dominate or presence .......................
--
Jack Rogers /// ///
\ // / /
"the most mercyfull thing \ //// _/ /
about the human mind is \_ //// /
its ability to forget \___/ /
that which it can not / \_ The opinions
understand" /,)-_( \_ \ above in no way
H.P.Lovecraft (/ \\ /\\\\ represent those of
// my Employer
-===========================((==========================
sv...@ll.mit.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have given a name to my pain... and it is Chimerstry.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah wrote:
> I was recently asked an interesting question. Which is better
> Chimerstry or Obfuscate ? The fact that both able to cloak
> though by different means.
I'll give two answers to this question, one of which is strictly
rules-driven, the second of which is my own gaming concoction:
(1) As written in WW canon, there _is_ no real difference between
Chimerstry and Obfuscate as concerns concealment, except the
dice pool you use -- one conceals through illusion, the other
conceals through deception and unremarkable... well, illusion. ;)
In fact, unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, just
about every Obfuscate power up through at least level 6 (Soul
Mask) can be duplicated effortlessly with an equivalent
application of Chimerstry (invisibility, changing appearance,
extending invisibility to others, projecting illusory colors
when someone attempts to aura read, etc.).
(2) Now I'll throw in my own two cents.
Chimerstry, as written, is ridiculous. It is the end-all and
be-all of Disciplines. I elaborate below.
Yes, it can be used to conceal one's presence, or silence an
area, palm objects, distract an easy mark, conjure up a fake
coin behind cup number three, summon mysterious pink fluffy
elephants, whatever.
It can also, without further policing, cause an opponent to
believe he/she has been staked, or is standing in sunlight
(with appropriate psychosomatic effects, depending on the level
of Chimerstry used), and can mimic the appearance of many,
indeed _most_, other Disciplines (Celerity, Fortitude, Obfuscate,
Obtenebration, Potence, Protean, Vicissitude, and many forms of
Thaumaturgy come to mind), provided the illusionist has a little
inside knowledge (say, witnessing the use of these Disciplines).
And, unlike the good old AD&D equivalent, there is no comparable
disbelief rule in the World of Darkness. Not an easy one, anyway.
(The system of disbelief helped to balance the AD&D illusionist
for exactly such reasons; he/she had to be very careful to guise
and carefully construct his/her illusions as plausible, and, if
such provisions were taken, rarely encountered failure.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not a fan of hard-and-fast Storyteller 'no' edicts, so here's
the general principle I try to use when adjudicating such things:
Sure, illusions can be used for all these (and other) effects.
But, Chimerstry is a Ravnos Discipline, (primarily) used by
Ravnos, and (overwhelmingly) used for Ravnos purposes.
By 'Ravnos purposes,' I mean hiding the ball so it's unseen
no matter WHAT cup the customer picks. Or picking a pocket, and
immediately hiding the object(s) obtained from sight, or masking
it as something else. Or running out of the back of a tent
while an illusory duplicate still runs the show up front. Or
covering a pit with an illusion of leaves, branches, etc. Maybe
conjuring an image of a gibbering monster to distract pursuers.
That sort of thing. Trickery. Deception. Pranks, even.
Consequently, I think it should be emphasized, through roleplaying,
that those who practice this Discipline, even those who teach it to
others (most notably those outside the Clan), use it (mostly) for
these purposes, and would only teach it to others with that slant.
I mean, this is mischevious fae magic, not 'Shadow Monsters IV.'
Abuse of the Chimerstry Discipline can quickly get just plain
ludicrous (illusory flaming swords, impenetrable armor, belt-
fed machine guns, explosives, you name it), and, because of the
versatile nature of the Discipline, is even worse than the
standard trends of munchkinism. You guys (and girls), as
Storytellers, have to tread carefully with it.
-- S. Skoog
(There's STILL a Caitiff running around
somewhere in a Massachusetts LARP with
Chimerstry who's always displaced six
or eight feet from where he appears to
be, has a 'box full of sunlight' ready
to open at a moment's notice, and often
unleashes the 'big bad Crinos werewolf
who pops out of nowhere' on people...)
Mark Shapiro
Davy (S...@dcc-kl.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: An interesting question. Cloaking effectively with Chimestry would
: require greater skill in that discipline than you would need in
: Obfuscate, so if cloaking is your only desire, go with obfuscate.
: Especially since (to the best of my knowledge) anybody has a chance of
: seeing through an Illusion, but only those with Auspex will usually
: notice an obfuscatee.
Chimestry only affects one target at a time, Obfuscate affects everyone.
--
Copyright (c) 1995, Mark Shapiro. Redistribution of this work, in any form,
in whole or in part, on or by the Microsoft Network, is expressly prohibited.
GCS d--(++) a-- C++++$ UL++++$ US++++$ US++ P+ L+++>++++ PE+
K? w--- O !M-- r- !V-- PS-- Y+ PGP- 5+++ X+ R+++ tv--- D
o? t G++>++++ e>++ h++(-) y- DI++ b++++ !E W+++$ N+++ s:
Valdar
phil...@aol.com (Philadox) writes: > In article <01bc816c$3ec0b900$LocalHost@default>, "Jeremiah"
> <ash...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
>
> >HI !
> > I was recently asked an interesting question. Which is better
> Chimerstry
> >or Obfuscate ? The fact that both able to cloak though by different
> means.
> >
> >
>
> I'd have to vote on Obfuscate. It's easier to find a teacher for, and it
> doesn't chew through your willpower.
>
> Binney
> Binney
Obfuscate,Without a doubt!
Valdar.
Ravi Balsa
Jack Rogers wrote:
> in truth another question could be "what is better potence or celerity"
>
> or maybe dominate or presence .......................
>
> --
> Jack Rogers /// ///
> \ // / /
> "the most mercyfull thing \ //// _/ /
> about the human mind is \_ //// /
> its ability to forget \___/ /
> that which it can not / \_ The opinions
> understand" /,)-_( \_ \ above in no way
> H.P.Lovecraft (/ \\ /\\\\ represent those of
> // my Employer
> -===========================((==========================
power around. Spend one bloodpoint and recieve as many actions as your
celerity rating. That's amazing! That's almost better than rage.
Think about it. If you've got an eighth generation vampire with 15
blood, he can have up to five celerity. He can have five extra actions
fifteen times for a total of 75 actions!
--
"Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!"
-Rage Against The Machine
"We forfeit three fourths of ourselves in order to be like other
people."
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"What good is a used up world and how could it be worth having?"
-Sting
Ian Turner
(snipt lots of stuff)
Wow! I never wrote up a Ravnos because I thought Chimerstry was
useless... At level 5, I could temporarily hurt someone but that is a
LOT of XP down the road and I don't really see my Gypsy meditating, so
the whole notion of spending Willpower until I get to LEVEL SIX didn't
float my boat.
I have to admit, a little creativity goes a long way. I can see what
you are saying, especially in light of the horrendous screeching rules
abuses I have perpetrated with Animalism and Obfuscate... Heaven
forfend I get Dominate! Mwa-ha-ha!
To think, I PLAYED someone with Chimerstry one before and all she used
it for was to prepare sketches from her mind before transfering them to
canvas. She was Toreador and whenever she lost concentration before
finishing painting she would frenzy on whomever interrupted her...
I REALLY do find the Willpower costs to be somewhat restrictive, and for
a free wheeling Ravnos with no place to sit down it and Meditate (and no
real knack for such), using ANY Chimerstry more than once a week or so
is unlikely... Does LARP make Chimerstry cost anything? If not I could
see this being a MAJOR problem!
Ian Turner.
Philadox
>Oh man! Celerity hands down. This is the best damn vampire combat
>power around. Spend one bloodpoint and recieve as many actions as your
>celerity rating. That's amazing! That's almost better than rage.
>Think about it. If you've got an eighth generation vampire with 15
>blood, he can have up to five celerity. He can have five extra actions
>fifteen times for a total of 75 actions!
Vamp DA book has fudged this to be a little less BS. but I must agree my
example is Garou Vs. Gruahl. The Bear makes one big Hit and it HURTS. the
Wolf makes 3-7 hits for less damage.
In my game I enforce the DA's Blood-Celerity rule.
Binney
Philadox
In article <33B142...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com>
writes:
>Chimerstry is far more versatile and damn useful for deception or even
>preserving that Masquerade thing, but Obfuscate is far easier to learn
>and use. Chimerstry is said to quite draining on ones' will, leaving
>one susceptible to Domination and similar threats.
Um I thought that Domination diffuculties are based on you PermWillpower.
Not you temp pool
Binney
Ian Turner
Nyarlathotep wrote:
> The biggest problem with Chimerstry is the lack of Attribute + Ability
> checks and no "Disbelief" rule.
> Ability rolls: None needed if time is taken for preparation. If the
> player is on the fly or in combat, each illusion created, or use of
> Chimerstry will require a diff 6 roll on Wits + Knowledge/Skill/Talent
> related to the illusion being created (ex. Wits + Firearms to draw a
> accurate representation of a Browning Hi Power from your jacket).
> Disbelief in this case would be handled on how accurate the illusion
> is ("Hey! That RPG grenede is painted in biologic warhead colors.
> There ain't no such animal! Get'em boyz!")
> Just some ideas...
I think an opposed roll using Manipulation + Subterfuge vs the targets
Perception + Alertness might be more in order (and the costs reduced a
tad). If the Ravnos creates the image with enough successes it is
believable. If not, the image appears, but the target spots an
inconsistency (although he may not immediately think "Oh gee this is an
Illusion, there must be a Ravnos around...").
Although using the relevant skill (or no more dice than the relevant
ability, such as Medicine to fake wounds, Firearms to create an elephant
gun or Animal Ken to make a tiger) might be more appropriate.
Ian T
Ian Turner
Nyarlathotep wrote:
> Perhaps Manipulation on planned (ambush) events. I think Wits is more
> appropriate for on the fly illusions. Just my thinking...
A good point.
> > Although using the relevant skill (or no more dice than the relevant
> > ability, such as Medicine to fake wounds, Firearms to create an
> > elephant gun or Animal Ken to make a tiger) might be more
> > appropriate.
>
> YES!
Although Artistic Expression could also substitute for most of them in a
pinch... Expression should be a Primary and Music a Secondary IMO.
Then again Vicissitude should use Medicine and not Body-Peircing...
Ian Turner.
Cheyenne Wright
I am forwarding a reply by my Ravnos "friend" who had this to say about his
"special kind of magic"
please send all reply's to him... not me
Cheyenne Wright
ther...@sprynet.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
sv...@ll.mit.edu wrote in article <33B153...@ll.mit.edu>...
>
> Jeremiah wrote:
>
> > I was recently asked an interesting question. Which is better
> > Chimerstry or Obfuscate ? The fact that both able to cloak
> > though by different means.
>
"The Ravnos Opinion"
It's not Chimerstry or Obfuscate to watch out for, it's the people who
learn to use both in a concerto of confusion (oooooh.....alliteration -
a common literary technique designed to catch interest).
>Chimerstry, as written, is ridiculous. It is the end-all and
> be-all of Disciplines. I elaborate below.
>
> Yes, it can be used to conceal one's presence, or silence an
> area, palm objects, distract an easy mark, conjure up a fake
> coin behind cup number three, summon mysterious pink fluffy
> elephants, whatever.
> (1) As written in WW canon, there _is_ no real difference between
> Chimerstry and Obfuscate as concerns concealment, except the
> dice pool you use -- one conceals through illusion, the other
> conceals through deception and unremarkable... well, illusion. ;)
>
> In fact, unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, just
> about every Obfuscate power up through at least level 6 (Soul
> Mask) can be duplicated effortlessly with an equivalent
> application of Chimerstry (invisibility, changing appearance,
> extending invisibility to others, projecting illusory colors
> when someone attempts to aura read, etc.).
"The Ravnos Opinion"
An illusion cannot remove something from existence. It creates, not
hides. Once again, many ways exist that things can be hidden. For the
ball and cups, why the hell do you have a ball in the first place? Make
an illusionary ball, and drop it if he selects the right cup. If you
want to hide in a room, hope that no one is familiar enough with the
dimensions to notice the fake wall. While it could be argued that you
could create a hemisphere of carefully calculated false depth, you would
have to move so slowly to make the adjustments to it and keep the
gradual shifting unnoticeable, that you could have learned Obfuscate in
the time that it took to get halfway down the damn hallway!
You can alter your appearance with Chimerstry, yes. You cannot shorten
yourself, nor remove a limb. Learn to walk differently, put your arm
inside your coat, and use the illusion to fill out your torso a bit.
Learn some disguise skill.
Once the Discipline reaches (8) and such, all bets are off. All
disciplines increase in power geometrically at this point. Besides, if
you're playing a 5th Generation with enough experience to buy it, who
the heck cares what you're doing with it? (Aside from trying to keep
all the power gamers from diabolizing you, that is).
> It can also, without further policing, cause an opponent to
> believe he/she has been staked, or is standing in sunlight
> (with appropriate psychosomatic effects, depending on the level
> of Chimerstry used),
"The Ravnos Opinion"
To my dismay, much of that has been done, and yes, I found 2 members of
the Now Camarilla Inner Circle who believed it firmly, and used it to
those hideous effects repeatedly.
For a definition (in my eyes) Chimerstry is converting that primordial
energy of the universe into temporary or permanent manifestations. At
the early levels, it functions on a purely physical level. Once it
reaches Horrid Reality(5), it begins to affect the minds of those
percieving it as well. Before level 5, a bottle of wine, when turned
upside down, will not spill or slosh, unless it is a consciously
maintained Apparition(3). At (5) and beyond, the viewers mind fills in
such details. Such effects as staking, shooting, stabbing, etc are
achievable, and, in fact, by a skilled practicioner, are easier than
actually doing the deed for real. However, in a stress situation, such
as being staked, then watching as you are decapitated, who isn't going
to try to move? Panic and fear will prevent the illusion from having
the declared effect, and the staked vampire will move. Mass Reality is
the same way.
> Abuse of the Chimerstry Discipline can quickly get just plain
> ludicrous (illusory flaming swords, impenetrable armor, belt-
> fed machine guns, explosives, you name it), and, because of the
> versatile nature of the Discipline, is even worse than the
> standard trends of munchkinism. You guys (and girls), as
> Storytellers, have to tread carefully with it.
> -- S. Skoog
>
> (There's STILL a Caitiff running around
> somewhere in a Massachusetts LARP with
> Chimerstry who's always displaced six
> or eight feet from where he appears to
> be, has a 'box full of sunlight' ready
> to open at a moment's notice, and often
> unleashes the 'big bad Crinos werewolf
> who pops out of nowhere' on people...)
"The Ravnos Opinion"
While flaming swords, boxes of sunlight, and other such effects can be
created, come ON, people. Yes, the blue and fuschia colored flames that
just sprang up around you are singing songs by the Cure, but 4 out of 5
dentists are going to have a thought or two about questioning their
realness.
Proud to be a Ravnos who worked hard to learn enough Obfuscate to get
by.
Raoul St. Pierre, fal...@deities.com
Tony Evans
> Davy (S...@dcc-kl.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : An interesting question. Cloaking effectively with Chimestry would
> : require greater skill in that discipline than you would need in
> : Obfuscate, so if cloaking is your only desire, go with obfuscate.
> : Especially since (to the best of my knowledge) anybody has a chance of
> : seeing through an Illusion, but only those with Auspex will usually
> : notice an obfuscatee.
When yonger I found out the hard way you must be very good to disapear
right in frount of someone. or it just doesn't work.
>
> Chimestry only affects one target at a time, Obfuscate affects everyone.
>
> --
> Copyright (c) 1995, Mark Shapiro. Redistribution of this work, in any
> form,
> in whole or in part, on or by the Microsoft Network, is expressly
> prohibited.
> GCS d--(++) a-- C++++$ UL++++$ US++++$ US++ P+ L+++>++++ PE+
> K? w--- O !M-- r- !V-- PS-- Y+ PGP- 5+++ X+ R+++ tv--- D
> o? t G++>++++ e>++ h++(-) y- DI++ b++++ !E W+++$ N+++ s:
Aspen
Tony Evans
> Mark Shapiro wrote:
> > Chimestry only affects one target at a time, Obfuscate affects
> > everyone.
>
>
> Ian Turner
OOC: If you are doing say a complex then I think it is posible to effect
more than one person but you would have to a social challange to each of
the people effected, that means puting up lots of social traits and is a
lot less subtle than obfuscate. Plus Aspen wouldn't know that Chimestry
is one of the few disiplines he has not learnt that he has had the chance
to.
Aspen
Tony Evans
I my view much the same as this Ravanos is that Chimestry is very usefull
but why use the illution when it wares of and is a mega drain on you own
mind. I have yet to see a ravanos come close to covering Obfuscate well
after all it was not made for making things invisable it was made to make
things visable.
Aspen
Delilah
Tony Evans wrote:
>
> > Davy (S...@dcc-kl.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > : An interesting question. Cloaking effectively with Chimestry would
> > : require greater skill in that discipline than you would need in
> > : Obfuscate, so if cloaking is your only desire, go with obfuscate.
> > : Especially since (to the best of my knowledge) anybody has a chance of
> > : seeing through an Illusion, but only those with Auspex will usually
> > : notice an obfuscatee.
>
> When yonger I found out the hard way you must be very good to disapear
> right in frount of someone. or it just doesn't work.
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually
right."
- Henry Ford (1863-1947)
Delilah