13 or 14 Antediluvians?
Cesar Alejandro Lezama Delpino
I got into trouble trying to count and name all the
Antediluvian vampires. I started with the basic assumptions that the
3rd-gen vampires were originally 13, and that to be cosidered a
"Clan", the lineage had to start with an Antediluvian. So let's see
where that got me:
1) Arikel, Toreador Antediluvian.
2) Absimiliard (is that really his name?), Nosferatu Anti.
3) Malkav, guess the clan. (Arikel's twin).
4) Ennoia, or whatever the Gangrel Anti was called.
5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
6) The Ventrue Antediluvian. He's dead, according to V:tM, but
he founded his clan and he was not diablerized (so no-one ascends to
3rd-gen).
7) Tremere/Saulot. Okay, so Tremere wasn't one of the original
13, but he's a 3rd-genner now (having diablerized the Salubri Anti),
and he's a clan founder on his own right.
So far, so good, that accounts for the seven Camarilla
clan. Now for the tricky part...
8) Cappadoci/Augustus Giovanni. Same scenario as Tremere's
above. Giovanni are a clan, and they have a 3rd-generation founder.
9) Ravnos Antediluvian, be she whatever she was (or is it a
he?).
10) Tzimisce Antediluvian, I believe his name was Tzimisce.
11) Lasombra Antediluvian, don't know his name.
12) Set or Sutekh, founder of the Setite clan.
13) Assam (Haquim? Hassan?), Anti of the Assamites.
14) Baali Antediluvian, called Shaitan I think.
I have assembled this list from short gleams of books (it's
hard to get WW books down here) and Internet material. I believe you
see the problem: 13 Antediluvian, 14 clans. Somewhere I made a mistake
and elevated a bloodline to the category of Clan. Can anyone tell me
which of the above 14 is not a valid Clan/3rd-gen combination? My
first guesses would be the Baali or the Ravnos.
Ian Turner
Cesar Alejandro Lezama Delpino wrote:
>
> I got into trouble trying to count and name all the
> Antediluvian vampires. I started with the basic assumptions that the
> 3rd-gen vampires were originally 13, and that to be cosidered a
> "Clan", the lineage had to start with an Antediluvian. So let's see
> where that got me:
>
The Brujah original Antediluvian was Brujah himself, he was Diablerized
by his hot-tempered Childer Troile.
The Baali are the Bloodline. Shaitan (the Baali founder) is 4th Gen and
currently Cappadocious or Saulot is popular for his Sire, although I
prefer Set myself. Cappadocious is flavor of the month though so he is
winning the dubious race to have been Shaitans Sire.
Ian Turner.
Chas
There is one tale in the clan that indicates He wasn't even the child
of the Dark God, but rather a lesser descendant artful in diablerie.
Oh and I believe Set to be a Greek interpretation, and Sutek to
be Sumerian (or at least semetic from the appropriate time period),
Seth is probably Hebrew(as above), and the Dark God is conspicuously
older than all of those languages.
Smenkara
Chris Watkins
In article <5is1rl$2eb$1...@skynet.usb.ve>, Cesar Alejandro Lezama Delpino
<94-2...@skynet.usb.ve> writes
> I got into trouble trying to count and name all the
>Antediluvian vampires. I started with the basic assumptions that the
>3rd-gen vampires were originally 13, and that to be cosidered a
>"Clan", the lineage had to start with an Antediluvian. So let's see
>where that got me:
>
Also known as Loz (maybe), but Loz is supposed to appear as a male
warrior.
> 2) Absimiliard (is that really his name?), Nosferatu Anti.
Absimiliard sired Baba Yaga, who's a 4th gen Nicktuku. So unless Baba
was originally 5th and diablerised her sire, Absimiliard is the
Nosferatu founder, yes. Also known as Ninmug (maybe).
> 3) Malkav, guess the clan. (Arikel's twin).
> 4) Ennoia, or whatever the Gangrel Anti was called.
> 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
Troile diablerised Brujah. The True Brujah descend from Brujah, whereas
the Brujah we know descend from Troile. Troile is supposedly in torpor
underneath Carthage.
> 6) The Ventrue Antediluvian. He's dead, according to V:tM, but
>he founded his clan and he was not diablerized (so no-one ascends to
>3rd-gen).
Also known as Nergal (maybe). However Nergal is supposed to appear as a
beautiful woman.
> 7) Tremere/Saulot. Okay, so Tremere wasn't one of the original
>13, but he's a 3rd-genner now (having diablerized the Salubri Anti),
>and he's a clan founder on his own right.
>
> 8) Cappadoci/Augustus Giovanni. Same scenario as Tremere's
>above. Giovanni are a clan, and they have a 3rd-generation founder.
Cappadocious is also known as Ashur.
> 9) Ravnos Antediluvian, be she whatever she was (or is it a
>he?).
The Ravnos disagree with this! They claim that their founder is a direct
childe of Caine (hence, second generation), and Ennoia (Gangrel) was a
childe of Ravnos. Of course, never trust a Ravnos. They also claim that
their founder was fundementally different to the other antediluvians.
Whereas the other founders serve static reality, Ravnos is an agent of
flux.
> 10) Tzimisce Antediluvian, I believe his name was Tzimisce.
Some say this one's dead too, but apparently he's in torpor and being
cared for by the Zantosa ghoul family.
> 11) Lasombra Antediluvian, don't know his name.
This one's dead too, either killed or diablerised by his childe.
> 12) Set or Sutekh, founder of the Setite clan.
> 13) Assam (Haquim? Hassan?), Anti of the Assamites
> 14) Baali Antediluvian, called Shaitan I think.
Shaitan is/was fourth generation. There were a few problems and
continuity errors with Shaitan's history, but essentially he is the
childe of Ashur, the Cappadocian antediluvian. So the Baali are really a
bloodline, not a full, founding Clan.
>
> I have assembled this list from short gleams of books (it's
>hard to get WW books down here) and Internet material. I believe you
>see the problem: 13 Antediluvian, 14 clans. Somewhere I made a mistake
>and elevated a bloodline to the category of Clan. Can anyone tell me
>which of the above 14 is not a valid Clan/3rd-gen combination? My
>first guesses would be the Baali or the Ravnos.
Yep, the Baali are a bloodline.
The second generation include at least 3, who have various names
including:
Enoch
Irad
Zillah
I think Enoch was the firstborn, named for the first city. He sired
Arikel and Malkav, and according to the Toreadors, he's still around,
unlike the other two, and may also be called Lamech.
The Assamites believe there were two other 2nd gens, whom Haqim killed
in order to use their blood for the Embrace.
Regarding the above deaths among the founders, I really don't like the
idea that these beings can be killed by anyone of lesser power unless
they wish to die. Cappadocious and Saulot at least seemed to willingly
move on (think Obi-Wan's death in Star Wars, "I will become more
powerful than you can possiblt imagine!") but I can't see Lasombra, for
instance, going the same way. Oh well.
Of course, at least one, probably several and conceivably all of these
ancient beings will have Obfuscate 10 ("Memory's Fading Glimpse"). So we
can never really trust *any* information on them....
Regards,
--
Chris Watkins
who loves digging up info on antediluvians.
Zorp
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spit out some electrons that said:
<SNIP>
>The Baali are the Bloodline. Shaitan (the Baali founder) is 4th Gen and
>currently Cappadocious or Saulot is popular for his Sire, although I
>prefer Set myself. Cappadocious is flavor of the month though so he is
>winning the dubious race to have been Shaitans Sire.
IC: I'll go and ask Bob... but I don't think that kind of info will
go out freely...
OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
Zorp - Malkavian Council Member
Recedite plebes!
Gero rem imperialem!
Justin Rabin
In article <5j0n6l$1...@platform.uoregon.edu>,
jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (Zorp) wrote:
>Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spit out some electrons that said:
><SNIP>
>>The Baali are the Bloodline. Shaitan (the Baali founder) is 4th Gen and
>>currently Cappadocious or Saulot is popular for his Sire, although I
>>prefer Set myself. Cappadocious is flavor of the month though so he is
>>winning the dubious race to have been Shaitans Sire.
>
>IC: I'll go and ask Bob... but I don't think that kind of info will
>go out freely...
>OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
>another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
>points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
Ashur is the founder of the Ventrue Clan. Now that I think about it... Ashur
was a second gen and was progenitor to several clans.
Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> > 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
I would just like to say that Troile was NOT the founder of Clan Brujah.
At least not the True founder. He was a 4th Generation that raised a revolt
against Brujah. Brujah was Deablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's. True Brujah wait in the shadows
for the day that we can come forward and take back what has been stolen
from us for so long.
Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
5th Generation True Brujah
Charon
Cuda wrote:
>
>
> Ravnos is a valid clan. He was a second generation vampire created by
> Caine himself. Who was killed because of Ennioa's (Ravnos's childer)
> deal with the other 3rd genners. She wanted to lead his clan but
> Laetshi (Ravnos sister) found out what she did and told the other clan
> members. When Ennioa returned to the clan thinking to lead them they
> were waiting for her. That is when her Kris began. The Kris turned
> to chaos. When there was no longer any order to it Caine stepped in
> and said "..I have come to pass judgement on this wretched creature
> who has destroyed my best-loved son." He then cursed Ennioa. He took
> away all her Ravnos power and gave her the cursed powers of the
> Gangrel. You will find this info in the Ravnos Handbook. I hope
> this cleared up any dought about the authenticity of clan Ravnos.
Wow, you guys get Handbooks now? We have to go by grafitti these days
to get by.
Charon
10th Gen
Moon Clan
------------------
and this damned
itchy feeling in
my head telling me
to go to the park
------------------
SmenKhekare
Zorp wrote:
> OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
> another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
> points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
>
damages it's credibility.
JBRocky
SmenKhekare wrote:
OOC: The Chaos Factor has alot of mistakes. One of these is saying that
Gangrel was a child of Ashur. I belive belive White Wolf said this but
I'm not sure. However I do know the author noted the mistakes he made a
few years back on AOL, it could have been there.
JBRocky
Ian Turner
Zorp wrote:
> OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
> another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
> points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
OOC
Actually I read somewhere that this bit was a typo and that Shaitan was
supposed to be a Childer of Gangrel or something.
In Turner.
Charon
OOC: Can someone PLEASE post the FAQ now? It think that it should be a
mandatory posting when the Salubri, True Brujah, AND Goratrix come out
of the woodwork. Also, coul I just e-mail it to these people, or would
that be the FAQ maintainer's job?
Adam
ST
Milpitas
--------------
Oh yeah. Hi,
I'm Arikel.
I'm hungry.
--------------
Cuda
On 14 Apr 1997 01:39:01 GMT, 94-2...@skynet.usb.ve (Cesar Alejandro
Lezama Delpino) wrote:
> I got into trouble trying to count and name all the
>Antediluvian vampires. I started with the basic assumptions that the
>3rd-gen vampires were originally 13, and that to be cosidered a
>"Clan", the lineage had to start with an Antediluvian. So let's see
>where that got me:
>
> 1) Arikel, Toreador Antediluvian.
> 2) Absimiliard (is that really his name?), Nosferatu Anti.
> 3) Malkav, guess the clan. (Arikel's twin).
> 4) Ennoia, or whatever the Gangrel Anti was called.
> 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
> 6) The Ventrue Antediluvian. He's dead, according to V:tM, but
>he founded his clan and he was not diablerized (so no-one ascends to
>3rd-gen).
> 7) Tremere/Saulot. Okay, so Tremere wasn't one of the original
>13, but he's a 3rd-genner now (having diablerized the Salubri Anti),
>and he's a clan founder on his own right.
>
> So far, so good, that accounts for the seven Camarilla
>clan. Now for the tricky part...
>
> 8) Cappadoci/Augustus Giovanni. Same scenario as Tremere's
>above. Giovanni are a clan, and they have a 3rd-generation founder.
> 9) Ravnos Antediluvian, be she whatever she was (or is it a
>he?).
> 10) Tzimisce Antediluvian, I believe his name was Tzimisce.
> 11) Lasombra Antediluvian, don't know his name.
> 12) Set or Sutekh, founder of the Setite clan.
> 13) Assam (Haquim? Hassan?), Anti of the Assamites.
> 14) Baali Antediluvian, called Shaitan I think.
>
> I have assembled this list from short gleams of books (it's
>hard to get WW books down here) and Internet material. I believe you
>see the problem: 13 Antediluvian, 14 clans. Somewhere I made a mistake
>and elevated a bloodline to the category of Clan. Can anyone tell me
>which of the above 14 is not a valid Clan/3rd-gen combination? My
>first guesses would be the Baali or the Ravnos.
Ravnos is a valid clan. He was a second generation vampire created by
Caine himself. Who was killed because of Ennioa's (Ravnos's childer)
deal with the other 3rd genners. She wanted to lead his clan but
Laetshi (Ravnos sister) found out what she did and told the other clan
members. When Ennioa returned to the clan thinking to lead them they
were waiting for her. That is when her Kris began. The Kris turned
to chaos. When there was no longer any order to it Caine stepped in
and said "..I have come to pass judgement on this wretched creature
who has destroyed my best-loved son." He then cursed Ennioa. He took
away all her Ravnos power and gave her the cursed powers of the
Gangrel. You will find this info in the Ravnos Handbook. I hope
this cleared up any dought about the authenticity of clan Ravnos.
Cuda
Clan Ravnos
Davy
In article <01bc4a83$40821790$fde9cdd0@www>, Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
<dra...@mach7.com> writes
>> > 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
>
>At least not the True founder. He was a 4th Generation that raised a revolt
>against Brujah. Brujah was Deablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
>today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's. True Brujah wait in the shadows
>for the day that we can come forward and take back what has been stolen
>from us for so long.
>
> Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> 5th Generation True Brujah
In the words of Monty Python
Here comes another one.
here it comes again.
Here comes a bunch of 'em
Thank god I'm not having lunch with em.
(OOC FAQ)
Davy Howard, No Fixed Domain "If life is sacred, eternal
Brujah Spokesman (Allied Domains) life should be more so." L. Praknik
--
Uk Masquerade: http://www.cyberenet.net/~sten/vampire/index.html
UKM Clan Brujah: http://www.cyberenet.net/~sten/vampire/slewi/index.htm
Ian Turner
Davy wrote:
> > Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> > 5th Generation True Brujah
>
> In the words of Monty Python
>
> Here comes another one.
> here it comes again.
> Here comes a bunch of 'em
> Thank god I'm not having lunch with em.
>
> (OOC FAQ)
OOC <<smack, smack, smack>> sound of head hitting wall...
Davy
In article <335644...@wpine.com>, Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com>
writes
OOC His, not yours, I hope :)
(who suddenly thought why not start a campaign for the pronouncing and
Writing of OOC and IC as Ook! and Eek!, in honour of the librarian?)
Simon Magid
Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach <dra...@mach7.com> skrev i artiklen
<01bc4a83$40821790$fde9cdd0@www>...
> > > 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
>
> I would just like to say that Troile was NOT the founder of Clan Brujah.
> At least not the True founder.
Ah... who's Troile? I've never heard about him.
> He was a 4th Generation that raised a revolt
> against Brujah.
Oh. Why is it I've never heard of this before?
> Brujah was Deablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
> today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's.
Hey, hold on here... suppose this Troile guy actually existed. He would
then be the Childe of Brujah. He would still be so even after this act of
Diablerie. So, the Brujah descended from him would still be childer of
Brujah himself, only one more space removed, right?
> True Brujah wait in the shadows
> for the day that we can come forward and take back what has been stolen
> from us for so long.
Huh? One moment. You are only 2% of the entire line, according
to your earlier statement. That means the rest of 'em outnumbers
you... hold on... 49 to 1. Pretty lousy odds. I guess you'll have to
wait for a while, then.
>
> Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> 5th Generation True Brujah
>
Wow. A real elder. And a 'True' Brujah, no less. Does that mean
that poor old Jerry, Goddess, Davy Howard and the rest of 'em
are all 'False' Brujah? Maybe 'Untrue' Brujah? Oh, wait. I'm being
rude and obnoxious to an Elder. A death sentence, if he finds
me. Oh my, oh my. Here's my address: jhe...@dk-online.dk
Stefan Ruud, Clanless
Posting for the missing Jeremias Skytte, the
Untrue Brujah Individualist
OOC: Read the FAQ, please!
M. Rinley Deeds III
> Ravnos is a valid clan. He was a second generation vampire created by
> Caine himself. Who was killed because of Ennioa's (Ravnos's childer)
> deal with the other 3rd genners. She wanted to lead his clan but
> Laetshi (Ravnos sister) found out what she did and told the other clan
> members. When Ennioa returned to the clan thinking to lead them they
> were waiting for her. That is when her Kris began. The Kris turned
> to chaos. When there was no longer any order to it Caine stepped in
> and said "..I have come to pass judgement on this wretched creature
> who has destroyed my best-loved son." He then cursed Ennioa. He took
> away all her Ravnos power and gave her the cursed powers of the
> Gangrel. You will find this info in the Ravnos Handbook. I hope
> this cleared up any dought about the authenticity of clan Ravnos.
>
> Cuda
>
> Clan Ravnos
>
passed off as truth, eh? The truth is far from this. The Ravnos decend
from the Rom. Gangrel are not Ravnos by any means. Please refer to the
GANGREL Handbook. And please remember, while you read it, the nature of
our clans. One is know for it's Honor and strength while the other is
known to be closer to the Prince of Lies.
Don't get me wrong, I've met Ravnos that I liked, at least until I found
out what they were about. But how can a Ravnos believe that story? I
mean, who knows better than you how tales are twisted?
Another thing, in your experience is it easier to corrupt, or to be
cleansed of corruption? What are the chances that something like the
Gangrel could come of a Ravnos? Far more likely the reverse, I say.
Be careful of what you believe.
Thistle
Gangrel
ex-SLO Primogen
(all messages typed by my loyal ghoul)
Cuda
I know all about the story that you Gangrel have spun about your
origins as a clan. It is just a pitiful attempt to deny your true
heritage. Us Ravnos have been stereotyped as liars and thieves so as
to give your tale of origin more credit. You might as well face the
truth. Deep down you were a Ravnos. Be proud of it and not hide it
with your lies.
Cuda
Clan Ravnos
Charon
M. Rinley Deeds III wrote:
>
Please refer to the
> GANGREL Handbook. And please remember, while you read it, the nature of
> our clans.
First a Ravnos handbook and now a Gangrel handbook!? This is
disgusting, this is wrong, this is a violation of the masquerade, and I
want one for us!!! Is that too much to ask? I'm getting a fucking
headache trying to read all of this damn graffiti, and I need to know if
what my sire told me is true! (OOC and Borders screwed up and ordered
CB:Gangrel instead of CB:Malk, but reordered CB:Malk about two months
ago and it still hasn't arrived; but I'm not bitter) But then again, if
we did have a handbook, it may take awhile to figure out.
Charon
10th Gen
Moon Clan
---------------------
ylbaborp d'erht dnA
....segap sdrawkcab eb
---------------------
Luke Slater
On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Cuda wrote:
> On 14 Apr 1997 01:39:01 GMT, 94-2...@skynet.usb.ve (Cesar Alejandro
> Lezama Delpino) wrote:
>
> > I got into trouble trying to count and name all the
> >Antediluvian vampires. I started with the basic assumptions that the
> >3rd-gen vampires were originally 13, and that to be cosidered a
> >"Clan", the lineage had to start with an Antediluvian. So let's see
> >where that got me:
> >
> > 1) Arikel, Toreador Antediluvian.
> > 2) Absimiliard (is that really his name?), Nosferatu Anti.
> > 3) Malkav, guess the clan. (Arikel's twin).
> > 4) Ennoia, or whatever the Gangrel Anti was called.
> > 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
> > 6) The Ventrue Antediluvian. He's dead, according to V:tM, but
> >he founded his clan and he was not diablerized (so no-one ascends to
> >3rd-gen).
> > 7) Tremere/Saulot. Okay, so Tremere wasn't one of the original
> >13, but he's a 3rd-genner now (having diablerized the Salubri Anti),
> >and he's a clan founder on his own right.
> >
> > So far, so good, that accounts for the seven Camarilla
> >clan. Now for the tricky part...
> >
> > 8) Cappadoci/Augustus Giovanni. Same scenario as Tremere's
> >above. Giovanni are a clan, and they have a 3rd-generation founder.
> > 9) Ravnos Antediluvian, be she whatever she was (or is it a
> >he?).
> > 10) Tzimisce Antediluvian, I believe his name was Tzimisce.
> > 11) Lasombra Antediluvian, don't know his name.
> > 12) Set or Sutekh, founder of the Setite clan.
> > 13) Assam (Haquim? Hassan?), Anti of the Assamites.
> > 14) Baali Antediluvian, called Shaitan I think.
> >
> > I have assembled this list from short gleams of books (it's
> >hard to get WW books down here) and Internet material. I believe you
> >see the problem: 13 Antediluvian, 14 clans. Somewhere I made a mistake
> >and elevated a bloodline to the category of Clan. Can anyone tell me
> >which of the above 14 is not a valid Clan/3rd-gen combination? My
> >first guesses would be the Baali or the Ravnos.
>
> Ravnos is a valid clan. He was a second generation vampire created by
> Caine himself. Who was killed because of Ennioa's (Ravnos's childer)
> deal with the other 3rd genners. She wanted to lead his clan but
> Laetshi (Ravnos sister) found out what she did and told the other clan
> members. When Ennioa returned to the clan thinking to lead them they
> were waiting for her. That is when her Kris began. The Kris turned
> to chaos. When there was no longer any order to it Caine stepped in
> and said "..I have come to pass judgement on this wretched creature
> who has destroyed my best-loved son." He then cursed Ennioa. He took
> away all her Ravnos power and gave her the cursed powers of the
> Gangrel. You will find this info in the Ravnos Handbook. I hope
> this cleared up any dought about the authenticity of clan Ravnos.
>
>
> Cuda
>
> Clan Ravnos
>
>
Ah yes, but the Ravnos lie a lot,
Michaeli Giovani.
(OOC: Ah yes, but Clanbook Ravnos is written from the Ravnos point
of View, and is as suspect as the sections of the Nos Clanbook which say
Nosferatu was 2nd gen after diablerising Zilla (or whatever) and that Set
is Nictuku. Also, Ravnos lie alot.
(The gypsies book said that Ravnos was made a vampire by gypsy
magic using the last smeer of blood from Dracian, a vampire of Enoch
killed by a rival for the fruit of the tree of knowledge he had grown. So
who can say for sure, except for an ST on a case by case basis.
(Of course, if you take the Mage view of Paradigm and belief-based
reality, then all the stories could be true.)
Luke Slater.
"I don't know about you, but impending armageddon always fills
me with a certain sense of urgency." - Marco the Cat.
Jo Hart
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote in article
<335A3F...@wpine.com>...
>
> WE have a Clanbook, thinly disguised as an allegory, 'The Alchemical
> marriage of Rosencrantz' or something. We are supposed to memorize it,
> but no one does as the verse scans poorly. We need to Embrace someone
> of literary talent to rewrite it...
Yeah, poor meter and bad scanning should be a killing offence IMO. Real
verse wants to be free! Verse libre for all!
Roz
Ian Turner
Charon wrote:
> First a Ravnos handbook and now a Gangrel handbook!? This is
> disgusting, this is wrong, this is a violation of the masquerade, and
> I want one for us!!! Is that too much to ask? I'm getting a fucking
> headache trying to read all of this damn graffiti, and I need to know
> if what my sire told me is true! (OOC and Borders screwed up and
> ordered CB:Gangrel instead of CB:Malk, but reordered CB:Malk about two
> months ago and it still hasn't arrived; but I'm not bitter) But then
> again, if we did have a handbook, it may take awhile to figure out.
And you would be required to swear an oath upon opening such a Malkavian
Clanbook to UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES believe any of it, do anything
suggested in it or not laugh at it derisively and draw mustaches on
all the people depicted therein.
WE have a Clanbook, thinly disguised as an allegory, 'The Alchemical
marriage of Rosencrantz' or something. We are supposed to memorize it,
but no one does as the verse scans poorly. We need to Embrace someone
of literary talent to rewrite it...
Don't worry, the Gangrel Handbook is probably just a helpful guide about
how to mark trees, avoid Lupines and avoid Earth Melding into the water
table and such, interspersed with some rambling stories.
Dr Pemberton.
Luke Slater
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Zorp wrote:
> Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spit out some electrons that said:
> <SNIP>
> >The Baali are the Bloodline. Shaitan (the Baali founder) is 4th Gen and
> >currently Cappadocious or Saulot is popular for his Sire, although I
> >prefer Set myself. Cappadocious is flavor of the month though so he is
> >winning the dubious race to have been Shaitans Sire.
>
> IC: I'll go and ask Bob... but I don't think that kind of info will
> go out freely...
> OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
> another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
> points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
>
> Zorp - Malkavian Council Member
> Recedite plebes!
> Gero rem imperialem!
>
(OOC: Of course, Chaos factor also says Gangrel was a Child of
Ashur, but that's because they put Giovanni, realised he wouldn't be
Embraced for centuries and had to stick in another name from somewhere.
Sometimes they just don't try.)
Ian Turner
Luke Slater wrote:
> (OOC: Ah yes, but Clanbook Ravnos is written from the Ravnos point
> of View, and is as suspect as the sections of the Nos Clanbook which
> say Nosferatu was 2nd gen after diablerising Zilla (or whatever) and
> that Set is Nictuku. Also, Ravnos lie alot.
I think Caine sent him into Torpor without his supper. He didn't quite
finish her off...
Ian T.
wbd...@cybercomm.nl
Everybody knows there were _15_ Antidiluvians.
atleast we Nosferatu do.
Nosferatu. We know where you live.....
W.B.Bakker (wbdwing)
student water engineer
(still open for job offers)
E-Mail:
wbd...@cybercomm.nl
WWW:
http://www.cybercomm.nl/~wbdwing/index.html
Snail-mail:
Rosendaalsestraat 194
6824 CP Arnhem
Netherlands
Cuda
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997 02:13:22, wbd...@cybercomm.nl wrote:
>
>
>Everybody knows there were _15_ Antidiluvians.
>
>atleast we Nosferatu do.
>
>Nosferatu. We know where you live.....
Ya and with all the info you just gave us we know where you live.
> W.B.Bakker (wbdwing)
> student water engineer
> (still open for job offers)
>E-Mail:
> wbd...@cybercomm.nl
>WWW:
> http://www.cybercomm.nl/~wbdwing/index.html
>Snail-mail:
> Rosendaalsestraat 194
> 6824 CP Arnhem
> Netherlands
Cuda
Clan Ravnos
Luke Slater
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Justin Rabin wrote:
> In article <5j0n6l$1...@platform.uoregon.edu>,
> jo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu (Zorp) wrote:
> >Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> spit out some electrons that said:
> ><SNIP>
> >>The Baali are the Bloodline. Shaitan (the Baali founder) is 4th Gen and
> >>currently Cappadocious or Saulot is popular for his Sire, although I
> >>prefer Set myself. Cappadocious is flavor of the month though so he is
> >>winning the dubious race to have been Shaitans Sire.
> >
> >IC: I'll go and ask Bob... but I don't think that kind of info will
> >go out freely...
> >OOC: In Chaos Factor, Shaitan is defined as the Childer of Ashur,
> >another name for Cappadocious. However, the Clanbook only slightly
> >points to it, with questions about the Progenitor...
>
> Ashur is the founder of the Ventrue Clan. Now that I think about it... Ashur
> was a second gen and was progenitor to several clans.
>
OOC: Or as I like to say when a discussion gets down to debating
such things as which White Wolf book is correct: They just don't try, do they?
If Ashur was 2nd gen, how come Shaitan - listed with Sire: Ashur -
is 4th? Did he accidentally diablerise some 13th gen mook and lose
generation? Of course; I wouldn't be surprised if that showed up in a
future supplement as yet another optional system for diablerie.
Luke.
wbd...@cybercomm.nl
In article <01bc4b44$0bd50360$Loca...@jheren.dk-online.dk> "Simon Magid" <jhe...@dk-online.dk> writes:
>From: "Simon Magid" <jhe...@dk-online.dk>
>Subject: Re: 13 or 14 Antediluvians?
>Date: 17 Apr 1997 15:28:24 GMT
>Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach <dra...@mach7.com> skrev i artiklen
><01bc4a83$40821790$fde9cdd0@www>...
>> > > 5) The Brujah Antediluvian (was his name Troile?).
>>
>> I would just like to say that Troile was NOT the founder of Clan Brujah.
>> At least not the True founder.
>Ah... who's Troile? I've never heard about him.
>> He was a 4th Generation that raised a revolt
>> against Brujah.
Actually, Triole is female.
>Oh. Why is it I've never heard of this before?
>> Brujah was Deablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
>> today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's.
>Hey, hold on here... suppose this Troile guy actually existed. He would
>then be the Childe of Brujah. He would still be so even after this act of
>Diablerie. So, the Brujah descended from him would still be childer of
>Brujah himself, only one more space removed, right?
>> True Brujah wait in the shadows
>> for the day that we can come forward and take back what has been stolen
>> from us for so long.
>Huh? One moment. You are only 2% of the entire line, according
>to your earlier statement. That means the rest of 'em outnumbers
>you... hold on... 49 to 1. Pretty lousy odds. I guess you'll have to
>wait for a while, then.
Brujah have Celerity, True Brujah have Temporalis.....
That's also 50 to 1 odds........
A True Brujah can diablerize you while you think what to do with you
celerity... And even if you manage to win, they'll turn back time and refight
the fight... And yes, they can do that.
>>
>> Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
>> 5th Generation True Brujah
>>
>Wow. A real elder. And a 'True' Brujah, no less. Does that mean
>that poor old Jerry, Goddess, Davy Howard and the rest of 'em
>are all 'False' Brujah? Maybe 'Untrue' Brujah? Oh, wait. I'm being
>rude and obnoxious to an Elder. A death sentence, if he finds
>me. Oh my, oh my. Here's my address: jhe...@dk-online.dk
>Stefan Ruud, Clanless
>Posting for the missing Jeremias Skytte, the
>Untrue Brujah Individualist
>OOC: Read the FAQ, please!
OOC: Read the Black Hand Book, even more "please"
Wouter, Servant to Baba Yaga, Nosferatu Nictuku.
Ian Turner
Simon Magid wrote:
> > I would just like to say that Troile was NOT the founder of Clan
> > Brujah. At least not the True founder.
>
> Ah... who's Troile? I've never heard about him.
Troile was a she I thought...
> > Brujah was Diablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
> > today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's.
>
> Hey, hold on here... suppose this Troile guy actually existed. He
> would then be the Childe of Brujah. He would still be so even after
> this act of Diablerie. So, the Brujah descended from him would still
> be childer of Brujah himself, only one more space removed, right?
What does simple logic have to do with this???
> > True Brujah wait in the shadows for the day that we can come forward
> > and take back what has been stolen from us for so long.
>
> Huh? One moment. You are only 2% of the entire line, according
> to your earlier statement. That means the rest of 'em outnumbers
> you... hold on... 49 to 1. Pretty lousy odds. I guess you'll have to
> wait for a while, then.
Between the explosive proliferation of Brujah in the Camarilla, Sabbat
and Anarchs, it seems their tactics are working admirably.
> > Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> > 5th Generation True Brujah
>
> Wow. A real elder. And a 'True' Brujah, no less. Does that mean
> that poor old Jerry, Goddess, Davy Howard and the rest of 'em
> are all 'False' Brujah? Maybe 'Untrue' Brujah? Oh, wait. I'm being
> rude and obnoxious to an Elder. A death sentence, if he finds
> me. Oh my, oh my. Here's my address: jhe...@dk-online.dk
'True' apparently doesn't mean that they cannot lie...
> Stefan Ruud, Clanless
Dr Pemberton.
Charon
This one has a lot of steady ground to stand on...
Charon
10th Gen
Moon Clan
----------------
OOC: Most of us
have, it's crap,
and very few of
our characters
would know any
of this.
PS. READ THE
FUCKING FAQ
YOU MUNCHKIN!!
----------------
M. Rinley Deeds III
> Don't worry, the Gangrel Handbook is probably just a helpful guide about
> how to mark trees, avoid Lupines and avoid Earth Melding into the water
> table and such, interspersed with some rambling stories.
>
> Dr Pemberton.
>
mind wants to leave a blood trail? You have to have an eye to pick out
the bits of truth in the stories, as with all clanbooks. My info has
been cross-checked, though, so I trust it a little.
Davy
In article <Pine.OS2.3.95.97042...@qustud90.quns.cam.ac.
uk>, Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> writes
Ah, but the WW books are _deliberately_ contradictory and apocrophyl, so
that no mere player can say for sure that the clan he plays is the
superior one.
Somewhere, in a deep hole under White Wolf, is a man who has written the
game world "truth", but I'll bet he never tells...
Luke Slater
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Charon wrote:
> > First a Ravnos handbook and now a Gangrel handbook!? This is
> > disgusting, this is wrong, this is a violation of the masquerade, and
> > I want one for us!!! Is that too much to ask? I'm getting a fucking
> > headache trying to read all of this damn graffiti, and I need to know
> > if what my sire told me is true! (OOC and Borders screwed up and
> > ordered CB:Gangrel instead of CB:Malk, but reordered CB:Malk about two
> > months ago and it still hasn't arrived; but I'm not bitter) But then
> > again, if we did have a handbook, it may take awhile to figure out.
>
> And you would be required to swear an oath upon opening such a Malkavian
> Clanbook to UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES believe any of it, do anything
> suggested in it or not laugh at it derisively and draw mustaches on
> all the people depicted therein.
>
> WE have a Clanbook, thinly disguised as an allegory, 'The Alchemical
> marriage of Rosencrantz' or something. We are supposed to memorize it,
> but no one does as the verse scans poorly. We need to Embrace someone
> of literary talent to rewrite it...
>
> Don't worry, the Gangrel Handbook is probably just a helpful guide about
> how to mark trees, avoid Lupines and avoid Earth Melding into the water
> table and such, interspersed with some rambling stories.
>
> Dr Pemberton.
>
The Giovanni have a Clanbook. It consists of a heavily annotated
version of the Prince (by Machiavelli, in case you were wandering if it
was some other book of the same name), together with a few essays by
important Clan members (Uncle Enzo gets to add his tuppence worth). A copy
was given to me, as to all those chosen for the Embrace, on my twelfth
birthday, along with my straight razor.
This book is supposedly an invaluable guide to dominating kindred
and mortal society. I burned nmy copy of it years ago, for fear that I
might give in to the temptation to show it to a member of another Clan,
thus calling down a Blood Hunt which Uncle Enzo could not shield me from.
Michaeli Giovanni.
Luke Slater
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
Oh yeah, I think I heard that. But it still doesn't explain the
discrepancy - is Set a third gen (as he claims) or a fourth (as the Nos
would seem to hold)? Will we ever know the truth? What are the thirty nine
steps?
Luke.
Zorp
>version of the Prince (by Machiavelli, in case you were wandering if it
>was some other book of the same name), together with a few essays by
>important Clan members (Uncle Enzo gets to add his tuppence worth). A copy
>was given to me, as to all those chosen for the Embrace, on my twelfth
>birthday, along with my straight razor.
Does it also tell you about how your all a bunch of BASTARDS? Just
wondering...
> This book is supposedly an invaluable guide to dominating kindred
>and mortal society. I burned nmy copy of it years ago, for fear that I
>might give in to the temptation to show it to a member of another Clan,
>thus calling down a Blood Hunt which Uncle Enzo could not shield me from.
> Michaeli Giovanni.
Could you get me a copy? I'll protect you from your clan, I'll even
like you (maybe, I won't try to kill you) if you do...
Tim Deegan
In article <335534...@hotmail.com>, Charon <qr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach wrote:
>>
>> Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
>> 5th Generation True Brujah
>
>mandatory posting when the Salubri, True Brujah, AND Goratrix come out
>of the woodwork. Also, coul I just e-mail it to these people, or would
>that be the FAQ maintainer's job?
<<OOC: Sorry - At the time I was only ever logging in to post the FAQ, not
to read the postings, what with being in another country. Anyone should
feel free to email at least the relevant bits of FAQ to people like Sir
Hienrich. Or even the bits of Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand that say
that the T.B. are a Secret.
Tim, FAQ Maintainer, despite occasionally posting as a T.B. himself. :)
PS, but I never said anything about it IC...
--
Tim Deegan <tj...@cam.ac.uk>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But don't panic - base eight is just like base ten really. If you're
missing two fingers" -- Tom Lehrer, "New Math"
Luke Slater
On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Simon Magid wrote:
> > > I would just like to say that Troile was NOT the founder of Clan
> > > Brujah. At least not the True founder.
> >
> > Ah... who's Troile? I've never heard about him.
>
> Troile was a she I thought...
>
<<Don't start down that line or we'll be here all night
(metaphorically speaking). Who can truly say which Antediluvians were
male and which were female, always assuming they didn't have access to
grotesque disciplines which allowed them to choose their gender to match
their mood.>>
> > > Brujah was Diablorized by Troile and 98% of the Brujah
> > > today are of Troile's linage not Brujah's.
> >
<<I'm going to start a little competition here. How many different
way can we spell Diablerised/Diablerized/Diabloized/Aardvark?>>
> > Hey, hold on here... suppose this Troile guy actually existed. He
> > would then be the Childe of Brujah. He would still be so even after
> > this act of Diablerie. So, the Brujah descended from him would still
> > be childer of Brujah himself, only one more space removed, right?
>
> What does simple logic have to do with this???
>
<<Plainly very little.>>
> > > True Brujah wait in the shadows for the day that we can come forward
> > > and take back what has been stolen from us for so long.
> >
<<So kind of more, sulky Brujah. No, no, wait, let me guess. You
don't sulk, you're above all of that. You probably don't go balistic
every time somebody asks you about their mother either ('let me tell you
about my mother).>>
> > Huh? One moment. You are only 2% of the entire line, according
> > to your earlier statement. That means the rest of 'em outnumbers
> > you... hold on... 49 to 1. Pretty lousy odds. I guess you'll have to
> > wait for a while, then.
>
<<49 to 1. I've known Kindred I reckon could do those odds. Of
course, most of them were Brujah. Well, Not-True Brujah, if we slip into
Newspeak for a second.>>
> Between the explosive proliferation of Brujah in the Camarilla, Sabbat
> and Anarchs, it seems their tactics are working admirably.
>
> > > Sir Hienrich Van Echenbach
> > > 5th Generation True Brujah
> >
> > Wow. A real elder. And a 'True' Brujah, no less. Does that mean
> > that poor old Jerry, Goddess, Davy Howard and the rest of 'em
> > are all 'False' Brujah? Maybe 'Untrue' Brujah? Oh, wait. I'm being
> > rude and obnoxious to an Elder. A death sentence, if he finds
> > me. Oh my, oh my. Here's my address: jhe...@dk-online.dk
>
> 'True' apparently doesn't mean that they cannot lie...
>
> > Stefan Ruud, Clanless
>
> Dr Pemberton.
>
Maybe it means they really exist. I heard a Ravnos say once that
nothing was real and life was but a dream. Mind you, I've heard Malkavians
and pre-school children who said that too. Of course, I place all of them
in the same credibility bracket as this Echenbach guy.
I personally find that arguing about the Antediluvians is a
singularly fulfilling pursuit, as you never run out of variations. Also,
if you are like Dr P. or my self you can not only name your 3rd gen Clan
founder, you can also give a rough description and a contact number:
"Hello, this is Augustus Giovanni. I'm afraid I'm in Torpor at the
moment, but if you'd like to leave your name, and a location where you can
be drained of all your vitae, I'll get back to you."
Ah, dammit, now I'm in trouble.
Michaeli Giovanni.
Zorp
>singularly fulfilling pursuit, as you never run out of variations. Also,
>if you are like Dr P. or my self you can not only name your 3rd gen Clan
>founder, you can also give a rough description and a contact number:
Ah... but you still don't really _know_ them, do you?
> "Hello, this is Augustus Giovanni. I'm afraid I'm in Torpor at the
>moment, but if you'd like to leave your name, and a location where you can
>be drained of all your vitae, I'll get back to you."
He's used to that sort of stuff.... killing his own wonderful sire...
JBRocky
W. B. Bakker wrote
>OOC: Read the Black Hand Book, even more "please"
>Wouter, Servant to Baba Yaga, Nosferatu Nictuku.
OOC: And to think I was bad enough.
Robert Chistopher
Archon, Clan Ventrue
Luke Slater
On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Lucy Praknik wrote:
> In article <Pine.OS2.3.95.9704...@qustud01.quns.cam.ac.u
> k>, Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> chose to share these nuggets of wisdom
> with all and sundry:
> >On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> >
> >> Luke Slater wrote:
> >> > (OOC: Ah yes, but Clanbook Ravnos is written from the Ravnos point
> >> > of View, and is as suspect as the sections of the Nos Clanbook which
> >> > say Nosferatu was 2nd gen after diablerising Zilla (or whatever) and
> >> > that Set is Nictuku. Also, Ravnos lie alot.
> >>
> >> I think Caine sent him into Torpor without his supper. He didn't quite
> >> finish her off...
> >>
> >> Ian T.
> >>
> > Oh yeah, I think I heard that. But it still doesn't explain the
> >discrepancy - is Set a third gen (as he claims) or a fourth (as the Nos
> >would seem to hold)? Will we ever know the truth? What are the thirty nine
> >steps?
> > Luke.
>
> I think it was something to do with Big Ben. I saw the film once you
> know. The book was not great literature.
>
> Lucy Praknik
> Malkavian scorner of the popular
> --
> "If you're my friend, follow me round the bend."
> -- Michael de Larrabeiti (A better writer than me, but not as
> good as Shakespeare), THE BORRIBLES
> =========an email from LUCY PRAKNIK======san...@ho-street.demon.co.uk==
>
I never got through it myself, my sister took her copy back
because she said I was bending the pages. As a consequence of theis I now
obsess about the condition of my books. Anyway, I believe that in the book
they are the steps down to some jetty or summat. There have been one or
two film versions with a wide range of interpretations. The one you speak
of is, I think, the one with, oh shit. That guy whose name has just
completely eluded me. Arse; serves me right for trying to be clever. Um.
Damn; I can see his face; he was in the Detectives, that Jasper Carrot
thing, um.... Feck. I'll get back to you on this (whether you give a damn
or not). I think it might be Robert Powell, but that just doesn't sound
right. To save a little credibility, it had Timothy West in it as a
politician, but he was shot at the beginning; and it ended up with whatsis
face hanging off the clock face. Arse, now I've made a complete arse of
myself. I could always not post this of course, but where's the fun in
that; I mean, I've bothered to type the damn thing, haven't I.
Luke.
Ian Turner
Luke Slater wrote:
> Strictly OOC: Hang on. People keep saying Baba Yaga is Nictuku,
> right. But as I understood it the Nictuku were the descendants of
> Nosferat (or whatever his name might be) who were blood bound to him;
> yet Baba Yaga wasn't, indeed she veritably kicked his unrighteous arse
I know nothing of Baba Yaga specifically (in fact she may well have
started at 5th or lower Gen and Diablerized her Sire Absimilard), but
the Nictuku are those Childer of Nosferat cursed along with him by
Caine. Only one female escaped the Blood Bond and most of Caines Curse
(the thought that the Nosferatu escaped MOST of the curse is scary...),
but her name is not given and it is said that her Progeny became the
Nosferatu of today. The original assumption was that Nosferat and his
Cursed Childer (the Nictuku) would not Sire since their goal was to
destroy all other Nosferatu, but with all the Nictuku Progeny cropping
up in products and such, their goal is obviously as loyally held as that
of the Assamites or the Sabbat...
The idea that the Hag IS the one that got away is neat, but she is
physically described in Nictuku terms and is listed amongst the
Nictuku in the Nosferatu Clanbook. I am pretty sure that someone with
Rage Across Russia would be better equipped to answer this (gotta love
WW, for the scoop on a Vampire, one must buy a Werewolf product!).
Ian Turner
Luke Slater
According to Rage across Russia, Baba Yaga was a priestess of the
Earth, and guardian of the area which would become the Soviet Union (WW's
definition of Russia it seems). Absimilliard tried to Embraced her, but
she beat him back with her magick (damn she was good). In the end he used
Animalism to turn the beasts who fought at her side against her, and she
fell. Absimilliard Embarced her.
Seeing the horror of what she had become, Baba Yaga flipped.
Summoning all her power (yes, even having lost her magick in the Embrace
she was still really Bad) she reached into the depths of the pit of
Malfeas - lair of the Wyrm if you believe that sort of thing - and called
forth the great Zmei; eight dragons of immensely arse-kicky proportions.
Absimililiard was pissed, to say the least, and proceeded to give the Zmei
a right royal trouncing, then came back at Baba Yaga.
Desperate, Baba Yaga dug even deeper, and even though it polluted
her soul, and the land she held dear, she called up Kosh Chei, Talon of
the Wyrm, a being at least on a par with the Second Generation in terms of
power. This beasty whupped Absimilliard but good. Old Absi was either
slain or went into hiding, but was never seen again. The land rejected
Baba Yaga after that, and she has been out of tune with it since.
I know that Blood Bonds vary in strength, but if you can stretch
the definition so far as to include sacrificing all you ever held dear and
selling your soul to one of the most diabolical beings in the Tellurian in
order to destroy your Regnant, then yeah, she might have been Blood Bound.
These days, she is supposedly trying to bring the old magic back
to Russia, but she is also sworn to find a new body for the Kosh Chei and
slaughter lots of Silver Fangs to free him from the fetish they bound him
into. Destroying the Nosferatu seems low on her agenda, and she is listed
in Rage Across Russia as Nosferatu; which is why I asked.
Luke Slater
On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Zorp wrote:
> Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> spit out some electrons that said:
> <SNIP>
> > The Giovanni have a Clanbook. It consists of a heavily annotated
> >version of the Prince (by Machiavelli, in case you were wandering if it
> >was some other book of the same name), together with a few essays by
> >important Clan members (Uncle Enzo gets to add his tuppence worth). A copy
> >was given to me, as to all those chosen for the Embrace, on my twelfth
> >birthday, along with my straight razor.
>
> Does it also tell you about how your all a bunch of BASTARDS? Just
> wondering...
>
<<Actually I think they missed that bit. Funny, I can't see how
such an oversight could occur.>>
> > This book is supposedly an invaluable guide to dominating kindred
> >and mortal society. I burned nmy copy of it years ago, for fear that I
> >might give in to the temptation to show it to a member of another Clan,
> >thus calling down a Blood Hunt which Uncle Enzo could not shield me from.
> > Michaeli Giovanni.
>
> Could you get me a copy? I'll protect you from your clan, I'll even
> like you (maybe, I won't try to kill you) if you do...
>
<<Alas, no member of my Clan, not even Uncle Enzo, would trust me
with a copy of the book these days. I'm widely know to be a namby-pamby
ghost lover, so...>>
> Zorp - Malkavian Council Member
> Recedite plebes!
> Gero rem imperialem!
>
<<Of curse, I might have made a bit of an effort, but I make it a
matter of principle not to work for people who offer my continued
existance as payment. Call me old fashioned but...
<<Anyway; I have no great fear of death. Death will bring me
closer to the woman I love, and possibly release us both to whatever comes
after, so your offer is not one I am eager to take up. I am very sorry
you felt it necessary to couch your request in such terms, but I am used
to such prejudice.>>
Yours regretfully,
Michaeli Giovanni.
Luke Slater
On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Luke Slater wrote:
> > I personally find that arguing about the Antediluvians is a
> > singularly fulfilling pursuit, as you never run out of variations.
> > Also, if you are like Dr P. or my self you can not only name your 3rd
> > gen Clan founder, you can also give a rough description and a contact
> > number:
> > "Hello, this is Augustus Giovanni. I'm afraid I'm in Torpor at the
> > moment, but if you'd like to leave your name, and a location where you
> > can be drained of all your vitae, I'll get back to you."
>
> I thought Augustus was awake. Is it true that he is overweight?
> Strange that so many Giovanni seem to be so, do they eat souls??? :)
<<Quite possibly; I'm not privy to the secrets of my elders, just
some of the foklore they leak back to us. I don't know about Augustus
being overweight, and I don't find that many of my Clan who are. We are
rather strictly brought up. Some of the guys who get Embraced on general
Merit are quite bloaty though. I think some of the senior members have
inverse liposuction to look more like Don Corleone, but that may simply be
vicious rumours. Ah, the power of Hollywood; dominion over the elemental
forces of the universe pales in comparison.>>
>
> I know the 4th Generation of my Clan (and have met a few) but have heard
> little of our Founder but rumor.
<<I got a card from him - or an aide, I'm not sure - on my twelfth
birthday, along with my annotated Prince and Giovanni Combat Razor. I'm
quite serious about the combat razor; most razors are just useless for a
Clan with Potence. I should have been presented to him after my Embrace,
but I was too much of an embarassment by that stage.>>
> The most interesting of which is that
> the original bearer of the name Tremere, the Founder of the House but
> NOT the Clan died centuries before Goratrix botched and turned the
> Council into Vampires. Then again only 3 of that original assemblage
> live on to this day, the others having been killed by Assamites,
> Tzimisce and their Gangrel pets, etc over the millenia.
<<Ah, but is it the name or the person or the idea which is most
important? Is it most important that there is a person called Tremere, or
that he is the original founder? Is there even a Tremere, or was he just a
stuffed dummy they wheeled out symbolically on special occassions? Is
there really an Augustus Giovanni, or do they just kidnap some unfortunate
cetacean for public appearances? Who can say? I do have to admit that all
I could provide is a description of a man whom I believe to be Augustus
Giovanni.>>
>
> Dr Pemberton.
>
Of course, this may actually be a disadvantage. After all, my Clan
lacks the mystique of a founder with no known personal habits. The fact
that Augustus Giovanni is knowable kind of detracts from the aura of
ethereality which makes antediluvians so fascinating. Ah well; perhaps
I'll meet one one day. Or then again, maybe that would be bad. Of course;
there would seem to be people posting to this newsgroup who could put me
in touch with them...
Zorp
Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> spit out some electrons that said:
>On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Zorp wrote:
<SNIP>
>> Does it also tell you about how your all a bunch of BASTARDS? Just
>> wondering...
>>
> <<Actually I think they missed that bit. Funny, I can't see how
>such an oversight could occur.>>
Its just one of thoes things they dont' tell you.
>> Could you get me a copy? I'll protect you from your clan, I'll even
>> like you (maybe, I won't try to kill you) if you do...
>>
> <<Alas, no member of my Clan, not even Uncle Enzo, would trust me
>with a copy of the book these days. I'm widely know to be a namby-pamby
>ghost lover, so...>>
> <<Of curse, I might have made a bit of an effort, but I make it a
>matter of principle not to work for people who offer my continued
>existance as payment. Call me old fashioned but...
You're old fashioned.
> <<Anyway; I have no great fear of death. Death will bring me
>closer to the woman I love, and possibly release us both to whatever comes
>after, so your offer is not one I am eager to take up. I am very sorry
>you felt it necessary to couch your request in such terms, but I am used
>to such prejudice.>>
Its nothing personal... just a solumn oath that involves helping to
take revenge for your horrid act that made your clan what it is... I
once had a good friend, we used to talk long hours... then he was
embraced by your clan (he was on a distaff side)... its not an easy
thing to do. However, we are kind enough to use a Ritual that stops
(or at least reduces the chance of) you becoming one of the restless
dead, so you can finally sleep.
Ian Turner
Zorp wrote:
> Sure.... that's what they all say... So, who's the third gen head?
We may not have one, the Ventrue apparently do not. (Well, they seem to
have HAD one once, but it is thought some Brujah snuffed him, yet they
still are a Clan)
> (OOC: I thought that he was, and that he was just really old but
> alive becuase of his Magicks.)
(OOC: Ars Magica says he croaked, of couse, OOC we all know he sleeps in
Vienna watched over by lovesick Etrius who will someday reach Golconda
and make the Clan all nice and squeaky like him OR will Diablerize his
sleeping Sire (for the good of the world!) and become some weird
Salubri-us Golcondite head of Clan Tremere!!!)
Dr Pemberton.
Ian Turner
Luke Slater wrote:
> Some of the guys who get Embraced on general Merit are quite bloaty
> though. I think some of the senior members have inverse liposuction to
> look more like Don Corleone, but that may simply be vicious rumours.
> Ah, the power of Hollywood; dominion over the elemental forces of the
> universe pales in comparison.>>
Could be a genetic thing, your Clan is the only one who actually is
related by blood in life, not just in death.
> <<Ah, but is it the name or the person or the idea which is most
> important? Is it most important that there is a person called Tremere,
> or that he is the original founder? Is there even a Tremere, or was he
> just a stuffed dummy they wheeled out symbolically on special
> occassions? Is there really an Augustus Giovanni, or do they just
> kidnap some unfortunate cetacean for public appearances? Who can say?
> I do have to admit that all I could provide is a description of a man
> whom I believe to be Augustus Giovanni.>>
Ha! An amusing conceit, I am reminded of the Aztec (or was it Inca?)
ceremony where some child is voted King for a day and then slaughtered
ceremonially. "Congratulations! YOU get to be Tremere this week!"
> Of course, this may actually be a disadvantage. After all, my Clan
> lacks the mystique of a founder with no known personal habits. The
> fact that Augustus Giovanni is knowable kind of detracts from the aura
> of ethereality which makes antediluvians so fascinating.
Well, I am sure that anyone who mistakes the immediacy of Augustus (or
some say, Tremere) for attainability is going to die as messily as
anyone else who has tried to kill said individuals over the years.
The Sabbats' so-called 'goal' is even more laughable in light of their
failure to kill Ausgustus, a relatively weak and young Antediluvian whom
they can drive straight to since everyone knows where he lives. If they
cannot kill him then some oldie like Set is going to quietly murder the
entire Sect in its sleep when he awakens since he A) has no address, B)
is 5000+ yrs older than Augustus and has been 3rd Gen all this time, C)
was once god of war to what was the worlds largest civilization (and
they cannot even kill a banker / mortician!) and D) won't tell them when
he wakes up...
> Ah well; perhaps I'll meet one one day. Or then again, maybe that
> would be bad. Of course; there would seem to be people posting to this
> newsgroup who could put me in touch with them...
There are Malkavians and then there are the truly mad...
Dr Pemberton
Luke Slater
Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he personally
finds quite distasteful?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Luke Slater
On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Zorp wrote:
> Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> spit out some electrons that said:
> <SNIP>
> >I personally find that arguing about the Antediluvians is a
> >singularly fulfilling pursuit, as you never run out of variations. Also,
> >if you are like Dr P. or my self you can not only name your 3rd gen Clan
> >founder, you can also give a rough description and a contact number:
>
> Ah... but you still don't really _know_ them, do you?
<<No. Alas I annoyed my Clan too much before I was permitted a
brief audience with Augustus. The audience is - according to Uncle Enzo -
about five minutes long, and one of the single most boring experiences of
his life. Damn, and I missed it. Doh!>>
>
> > "Hello, this is Augustus Giovanni. I'm afraid I'm in Torpor at the
> >moment, but if you'd like to leave your name, and a location where you can
> >be drained of all your vitae, I'll get back to you."
>
> He's used to that sort of stuff.... killing his own wonderful sire...
<<Was he so wonderful. I heard he wanted to kill God, which as a
good Catholic boy - well; lapsed Catholic boy, but my partner was a good
Catholic all her life *for what good it did me* - makes me wonder if he
was all that cool.>>
>
> Zorp - Malkavian Council Member
> Recedite plebes!
> Gero rem imperialem!
>
So; you liked the Cappadocians then? Funny, most people give you
odd looks if you even mention them. I only know of them from a couple of
the essays in the Annotated Prince. I guess that I should take the death
threats seriously then, huh? Oh well, I've had a good innings; thirty
years a Revenant, fourty a Kindred; heck, I've had my three-score and ten.
So if you think you can live with yourself for executing an innocent - and
I really don't think you will have any trouble whatsoever - feel free to
look me up.
Yours resignedly,
Michaeli 'false name, fake id, forged driver's license and someone
else's credit cards' Giovanni, *and partner*.
Luke Slater
On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
> Luke Slater wrote:
> > Some of the guys who get Embraced on general Merit are quite bloaty
> > though. I think some of the senior members have inverse liposuction to
> > look more like Don Corleone, but that may simply be vicious rumours.
> > Ah, the power of Hollywood; dominion over the elemental forces of the
> > universe pales in comparison.>>
>
> Could be a genetic thing, your Clan is the only one who actually is
> related by blood in life, not just in death.
>
<<could be. Of course, the ones who get Embraced on merit are
actually the least closely related. It's the real pure-breeds - such as
myself, in spite of my English nationality - who are selected early, as
they are assumed to be as Giovanni as they need to be from the word go.
<<Of course, not only I, but also my young cousin Giovanna were
selected in this way. I end up campaigning for the rights of ghosts, but
that's nothing to poor Giovanna. When she was fifteen the poor girl
Changed. Turns out her oh-so Italian, allegedly Giovanni, absentee father
was, in reality, a Glass Walker Garou. Anyway, so that nails her Embrace
on the head. She probably would of wound up dead, but her dad showed up
and busted her out of a safehouse in Vienna (it was deemed unsafe to keep
a Garou in the Mausoleum, fortunately for G). Poor kid. Not only is she
now outcast from the family - which I can testify is survivable - she's
also unlikely to get much acceptance from her Garou kin, since she was
born with kindred blood in her veins.>>
> > <<Ah, but is it the name or the person or the idea which is most
> > important? Is it most important that there is a person called Tremere,
> > or that he is the original founder? Is there even a Tremere, or was he
> > just a stuffed dummy they wheeled out symbolically on special
> > occassions? Is there really an Augustus Giovanni, or do they just
> > kidnap some unfortunate cetacean for public appearances? Who can say?
> > I do have to admit that all I could provide is a description of a man
> > whom I believe to be Augustus Giovanni.>>
>
> Ha! An amusing conceit, I am reminded of the Aztec (or was it Inca?)
> ceremony where some child is voted King for a day and then slaughtered
> ceremonially. "Congratulations! YOU get to be Tremere this week!"
>
> > Of course, this may actually be a disadvantage. After all, my Clan
> > lacks the mystique of a founder with no known personal habits. The
> > fact that Augustus Giovanni is knowable kind of detracts from the aura
> > of ethereality which makes antediluvians so fascinating.
>
> Well, I am sure that anyone who mistakes the immediacy of Augustus (or
> some say, Tremere) for attainability is going to die as messily as
> anyone else who has tried to kill said individuals over the years.
<<Indeed, this does make a difference, but you know what I mean.>>
>
> The Sabbats' so-called 'goal' is even more laughable in light of their
> failure to kill Ausgustus, a relatively weak and young Antediluvian whom
> they can drive straight to since everyone knows where he lives. If they
> cannot kill him then some oldie like Set is going to quietly murder the
> entire Sect in its sleep when he awakens since he A) has no address, B)
> is 5000+ yrs older than Augustus and has been 3rd Gen all this time, C)
> was once god of war to what was the worlds largest civilization (and
> they cannot even kill a banker / mortician!) and D) won't tell them when
> he wakes up...
<<My point regarding Augustus. On my scale of things he's so
fucking hard it's unbelievable, but on Set's slide rule he's gonna be way
down.>>
>
> > Ah well; perhaps I'll meet one one day. Or then again, maybe that
> > would be bad. Of course; there would seem to be people posting to this
> > newsgroup who could put me in touch with them...
>
> There are Malkavians and then there are the truly mad...
>
> Dr Pemberton
>
Do they believe they are who they say they are; do you think. All
the same; I think I have enough to worry about, as Zorp appears to be out
for my blood and he seems to claim that he remembers the Cappadocians,
whom my ancestors bumped off to become a Clan. Ho hum, more people after
my hide.
Incidentally, if I remember correctly from Herodotus, didn't the
Cappadocians live next door to Conan's folks, the Cimmerians. Hardly
seeing a similarity between the two. I guess not many Cappadocians
actually were Cappadocians then; or something. Still, I have often
wondered whether there could be any connection between a race of -
probably - bronze-limbed turks, and a Clan of imaciated albinos. If any
one has any thoughts or knowledge of this (OOC:eg has read Clanbook
Cappadocian); inquiring minds want to know.
Michaeli Giovanni, free associating somewhat this close to dawn.
Simon Magid
Luke Slater <lj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in article
<Pine.OS2.3.95.97042...@qustud90.quns.cam.ac.uk>...
>
> On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Zorp wrote:
>
> > Its nothing personal... just a solumn oath that involves helping to
> > take revenge for your horrid act that made your clan what it is... I
> > once had a good friend, we used to talk long hours... then he was
> > embraced by your clan (he was on a distaff side)... its not an easy
> > thing to do. However, we are kind enough to use a Ritual that stops
> > (or at least reduces the chance of) you becoming one of the restless
> > dead, so you can finally sleep.
> >
> > Zorp - Malkavian Council Member
> > Recedite plebes!
> > Gero rem imperialem!
> >
> >
> Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
> teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
> knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he personally
> finds quite distasteful?
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> Michaeli Giovanni.
>
I do not know about the good Zorp... but believe me, this sort of thing
is not all that uncommon. For example, that odd individual who posted
a letter claiming that he was a 'true' Brujah and that the entire clan
Brujah as we know it was to be condemned for an act of Diablerie
performed more than two millennia ago.
I believe the concept is called 'original sin'. I had thought it to be
outmoded some few years ago, but somehow it does not surprise
me that certain elders with mental problems would cling to it; it
makes it easier for them to justify their petty hatreds of certain
bloodlines...
> "I don't know about you, but impending armageddon always fills me with a
> certain sense of urgency." - Marco the Cat.
I can certainly relate to that.
Jeremias Skytte, Copenhagen
Brujah Individualist
--
Brian: (adressing crowd) 'You are individuals! You are all different!'
crowd: 'YES! WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!'
faint voice in crowd: 'I'm not.'
Monty Python's Life of Brian
valdar
YoUr AALLLL wrOng There's OlNNNNly oNe Anty Deluted... MALKAV!!!!!!!! mwa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHAR HAR HAR!!!!!
Ian Turner
Luke Slater wrote:
> Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
> teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
> knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he
> personally finds quite distasteful?
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> Michaeli Giovanni.
Oh, like the Tremere are all evil because a Tremere once Diablerized
Saulot? The Toreador must pay for betraying the dream of Carthage and
the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it? Troiles Get must
perish for her crime against Brujah? The Lasombra Antitribu must pay
for leaving the Lasombra? EVERYONE must die because the rest of the
Antediluvians dissed Set, Haqim, Ravnos, Augustus? The Tremere must die
for killing some Tzimisce Methusaleh to become Vampires?
It is amazing how many Kindreds minds seem to have died with their
brains...
Dr Pemberton.
Mark Shapiro
Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
: Luke Slater wrote:
: > Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
: > teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
: > knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he
: > personally finds quite distasteful?
: > Inquiring minds want to know.
: > Michaeli Giovanni.
: Oh, like the Tremere are all evil because a Tremere once Diablerized
: Saulot? The Toreador must pay for betraying the dream of Carthage and
: the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it? Troiles Get must
: perish for her crime against Brujah? The Lasombra Antitribu must pay
: for leaving the Lasombra? EVERYONE must die because the rest of the
: Antediluvians dissed Set, Haqim, Ravnos, Augustus? The Tremere must die
: for killing some Tzimisce Methusaleh to become Vampires?
You left out, 'The Brujah must pay for the depravity they began in Carthage,
which forced the Ventrue and Malkavians to raze it?'
--
Copyright (c) 1995, Mark Shapiro. Redistribution of this work, in any form,
in whole or in part, on or by the Microsoft Network, is expressly prohibited.
GCS d--(++) a-- C++++$ UL++++$ US++++$ US++ P+ L+++>++++ PE+
K? w--- O !M-- r- !V-- PS-- Y+ PGP- 5+++ X+ R+++ tv--- D
o? t G++>++++ e>++ h++(-) y- DI++ b++++ !E W+++$ N+++ s:
Simon Magid
Mark Shapiro <ma...@axsamer.org> skrev i artiklen
<5k4utt$o...@news0-alterdial.uu.net>...
>
> Ian Turner (itu...@wpine.com) wrote:
>
> : Oh, like the Tremere are all evil because a Tremere once Diablerized
> : Saulot? The Toreador must pay for betraying the dream of Carthage and
> : the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it? Troiles Get must
> : perish for her crime against Brujah? The Lasombra Antitribu must pay
> : for leaving the Lasombra? EVERYONE must die because the rest of the
> : Antediluvians dissed Set, Haqim, Ravnos, Augustus? The Tremere must
die
> : for killing some Tzimisce Methusaleh to become Vampires?
>
> You left out, 'The Brujah must pay for the depravity they began in
Carthage,
> which forced the Ventrue and Malkavians to raze it?'
>
>
(struggles to remain patient)
Mr. Rickard... did you read the good doctor's original posting at
all? It was meant to be SARCASM... or at least, so I understood
it. Are you actively trying to insult every Brujah on this newsgroup?
I have always assumed that most Ventrue are very intelligent,
open-minded and able to pursue a constructive discussion without
gratuitously insulting those with whom they are trying to discourse.
If you persist in acting this way, you will force me to assume that
you do not belong in this majority.
And as for digging up a conflict which was settled millennia before
I was born... suffice it to be said, it is the sort of thing that
convinces me that the person doing it must be living in the past to
such a degree that he can hardly function in the present at all.
Please, mr. Rickard. You may have taken offense at the good
Doctor's statement, but it was NOT intended as a slur on the
Ventrue, but as a slur on those foolish enough to try to revive
conflicts long dead... and on insisting on holding grudges against
the childer of those responsible, even if they were only sired
centuries after the actual event.
With respect,
Jo Hart
Ian Turner <itu...@wpine.com> wrote in article
<3364D4...@wpine.com>...
> The Toreador must pay for betraying the dream of Carthage and
> the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it?
Whats all that about then? Are we talking about Carthage as in Dido &
Aeneas? (Was she a Tori ???)
Roz
Never took much interest in clan history
Luke Slater
On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Ian Turner wrote:
>
> Luke Slater wrote:
> > Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
> > teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
> > knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he
> > personally finds quite distasteful?
> > Inquiring minds want to know.
> > Michaeli Giovanni.
>
> Oh, like the Tremere are all evil because a Tremere once Diablerized
> Saulot?
<<Who? Oh yeah, the Salubri guy. Well, I did see a post that
said he was a great guy; but then I also saw a post which claimed the
Brujah are all phoney-assed spawn of diablerie. Besides, who are the
Giovanni to talk. Hell, in case anyone didn't know, our Clan chief
diablerised Cappadocius and proud of it. Of course; the idea of this
makes me somewhat ill, but I no more blame the Tremere for their Clan
Leader's actions than I accept that I am responsible for the death of
Cappadocius.>>
> The Toreador must pay for betraying the dream of Carthage and
> the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it?
<<A bit before my time (for my, read, my Clan's).>>
> Troiles Get must perish for her crime against Brujah?
<<Does anyone know if there's any more to this than the ravings of
one 'True' Brujah?>>
> The Lasombra Antitribu must pay for leaving the Lasombra?
<<Lasombra antitribu? I didn't know you could get them.>>
> EVERYONE must die because the rest of the Antediluvians dissed Set,
> Haqim, Ravnos, Augustus?
<<Equal-opportunity genocide.>>
> The Tremere must die
> for killing some Tzimisce Methusaleh to become Vampires?
<<Damn; that's two strikes against your guys. Of course, I don't
hold with any of this, but you do seem to have gone to great lengths to
piss people off. Of course; if the aim was to make you magick incredibly
powerful and yourselves immortal, I can see that the leaders of House
Tremere might well not give a rat's arse what the rest of the 'mere'
vampires thought of them.>>
>
> It is amazing how many Kindreds minds seem to have died with their
> brains...
>
> Dr Pemberton.
>
Ah, but here we see the age old dichotomy. These people are, alas,
not stupid. If they were, they would not be dangerous. If I thought Zorp
was stupid, I wouldn't be worried.
Michaeli Giovanni.
Delilah
Luke Slater wrote:
> Ah, but here we see the age old dichotomy. These people are, alas,
> not stupid. If they were, they would not be dangerous. If I thought Zorp
> was stupid, I wouldn't be worried.
> Michaeli Giovanni.
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is a
little like expecting the bull not to attack you because you are a
vegetarian."
-Dennis Wholey
Delilah
Ian Turner
Delilah wrote:
> "Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person
> is a little like expecting the bull not to attack you because you are
> a vegetarian."
> -Dennis Wholey
>
> Delilah
Are you suggesting that those who hate members of some Clan, Sect, age
category or status as a group on basic principal alone are to be
considered mindless animals acting only on instinct?
If you are I agree.
Dr Pemberton.
Delilah
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is
no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
-Galbraith's Law
Delilah
Melaflure Dunwich
> Are you suggesting that those who hate members of some Clan, Sect, age
> category or status as a group on basic principal alone are to be
> considered mindless animals acting only on instinct?
maybe, just maybe they are acting on what they are taught by their Sire's.
Who where taught by their Sire's. maybe the problem is that we are all a
bunch
of narrow minded fools acting out the wishes of the Elders.
--
Melaflure Dunwich
M. Rinley Deeds III
> : Luke Slater wrote:
> : > Oh I see; it's one of those things.. It doesn't strike you as a
> : > teensy bit unfair to execute someone for something done without their
> : > knowledge or consent, centuries before his birth, and which he
> : > personally finds quite distasteful?
> : > Inquiring minds want to know.
> : > Michaeli Giovanni.
>
> : Oh, like the Tremere are all evil because a Tremere once Diablerized
> : the Malkavians and Ventrue must pay for razing it? Troiles Get must
> : perish for her crime against Brujah? The Lasombra Antitribu must pay
> : for leaving the Lasombra? EVERYONE must die because the rest of the
> : Antediluvians dissed Set, Haqim, Ravnos, Augustus? The Tremere must die
>
> which forced the Ventrue and Malkavians to raze it?'
>
other than the Ravnos.
Thistle
Gangrel
ex-SLO Primogen
(all messages typed by my loyal ghoul)
valdar
The most dangerous of all creatures are the one's that blend with thier surrounds
surroundings and appear harmless.
It is not the way we look or sound or act but the way you SEE us.
and that's what makes the dance oh so much fun!!!!
SEE YA
VAL
valdar
What's one liiittle bonfire among friends.?..:)
Mark Shapiro
Simon Magid (jhe...@dk-online.dk) wrote:
: I believe the concept is called 'original sin'. I had thought it to be
: outmoded some few years ago, but somehow it does not surprise
: me that certain elders with mental problems would cling to it; it
: makes it easier for them to justify their petty hatreds of certain
: bloodlines...
The funny thing is, the concept of 'original sin' as it applies to the
mortal world is not what most people think it is. In the Kindred world,
it has even less meaning. Those of the current clan Brujah are not in any
way responsible for the alleged (and I say alleged because I have seen no
evidence of the claims) actions of Troile.
Galen Rickard (Clan Ventrue)
Prince of DC
http://www.bios.net/~galen
MDB
> > The funny thing is, the concept of 'original sin' as it applies to the
> > mortal world is not what most people think it is.
>
> the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge) somehow tainted ALL of his
> descendants with the capacity for sin... that is to say, the entire
> human race. This has by some people been expanded to mean
> that if a father commits a sin, his children are equally culpable...
Ah yes, the ol' "kill his family to the 8th generation" kind of thing...
> > In the Kindred world,
> > it has even less meaning. Those of the current clan Brujah are not in
> any
> > way responsible for the alleged (and I say alleged because I have seen no
> > evidence of the claims) actions of Troile.
Let's face it, if you were around to know the truth of the matter anyway
you probably wouldn't be here right now (somehow I think if someone was
powerful enough to overcome an Antediluvian they would be powerful
enough to ensure no witnesses escaped...)
> Well, sir, I hardly think you can be blamed for lacking knowledge
> of these events... I doubt that Brujah history is an important part
> of the education of fledgling Ventrue, or a matter of interest to
> Ventrue Elders. Especially since that most _Brujah_ knows
> nothing about it either...
Hey, try knowing the history of your clan if you're Malkavian; all I've
ever heard is pretty much summed up as "Malkav founded our clan".
> In any case, sir, I thank you for your support.
You're not getting his Bud Lite (besides, Bud is a little on the fat
side anyway... :)).
> > Galen Rickard (Clan Ventrue)
> > Prince of DC
>
> Jeremias Skytte, Copenhagen
> Brujah Individualist
--
Malcolm the Jester
11th generation Malkavian
mbr...@knox.edu (remove .nospam from email)
"The slow brain penetrates the shield"
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And
I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it."
"Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me?"
"One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run
with a wooden stake"
--Jack Handly, Deep Thoughts
"But soft, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the East, and
Juliet is AAAHHHHHHH THE SUN!!!!!" *FOOM!*
-- Toreador Theatre