IC: A short introduction
joa...@der-joachim.myweb.nospam.nl
This is um.. my second posting here. Not having had a life in my mortal
days, some bastard Embraced me for insulting him. To make matters worse,
this Sire of mine appears to be the lowest runt in Vamp.. uhm.. Kindred
society. Damn.
For some reason, I managed to survive so far. There is this group called
Sabbat in town. They seem to be the bad guys and I was offered one
chance. If I participate in dangerous scouting missions, I may still
have a chance to build a normal unlife. However, every chance at a good
job is squandered because of my (lack of) lineage and my age.
Unlife is a MacJob, like in Douglas Coupland's Generation X. There is
always someone above you who is older and has thus the better jobs and
status. And they won't die, so you won't be able to climb in rank. Well,
that's unlife for you.
Bye.
~CN
--
Computational linguistics student at Tilburg U., the Netherlands
http://www.der-joachim.myweb.nl/
Servant of reality my hairy ass! (H.P. Derleth, Hollow One)
AdamRLee
>
>This is um.. my second posting here. Not having had a life in my mortal
>days, some bastard Embraced me for insulting him. To make matters worse,
>this Sire of mine appears to be the lowest runt in Vamp.. uhm.. Kindred
>society. Damn.
>
>For some reason, I managed to survive so far. There is this group called
>Sabbat in town. They seem to be the bad guys and I was offered one
>chance. If I participate in dangerous scouting missions, I may still
>have a chance to build a normal unlife. However, every chance at a good
>job is squandered because of my (lack of) lineage and my age.
>
>Unlife is a MacJob, like in Douglas Coupland's Generation X. There is
>always someone above you who is older and has thus the better jobs and
>status. And they won't die, so you won't be able to climb in rank. Well,
>that's unlife for you.
>
>Bye.
>~CN
Defect. Find the Sabbat that you're supposed to be scouting out, and just go
over. Hopefully for you they won't kill you out of hand, but even dying is
better than life as a Caitiff (which is what you are, without lineage) in the
Camarilla (the people who tell you what you are and what you need to do). In
the Sabbat, you'd be extended the chance to be at least equal, which you will
never be in the Camarilla. Maybe even more than equal, your value on our side
isn't based on strength of blood or depth of lineage, its judged by strength of
heart and depth of character.
Alexandros Phuri-Dae
Ravnos Antitribu
Odette
> Hello,
>
> This is um.. my second posting here. Not having had a life in my mortal
> days, some bastard Embraced me for insulting him. To make matters worse,
> this Sire of mine appears to be the lowest runt in Vamp.. uhm.. Kindred
> society. Damn.
Why do you say that you didn't have a life?
>
> For some reason, I managed to survive so far.
Congratulations. That's not a small matter, especially if they send you out
to fight their battles.
> Unlife is a MacJob, like in Douglas Coupland's Generation X. There is
> always someone above you who is older and has thus the better jobs and
> status. And they won't die, so you won't be able to climb in rank. Well,
> that's unlife for you.
I think that you are too hung up on status, if you don't mind my saying so.
Do you really want to spend forever running about on other people's whims,
and being stuck with dead-end jobs? I would like to think that we are beyond
that now. They can find other toys.
Do their archaic ranks really matter in any meaningful way? I sometimes feel
as if I were a completely different type of creature from those old ones who
live like that, because it means nothing to me at all.
Best wishes.
Odette
Caitiff
Daria Meredith
>Defect. Find the Sabbat that you're supposed to be scouting out, and just go
>over. Hopefully for you they won't kill you out of hand, but even dying is
>better than life as a Caitiff (which is what you are, without lineage) in the
>Camarilla (the people who tell you what you are and what you need to do). In
>the Sabbat, you'd be extended the chance to be at least equal, which you will
>never be in the Camarilla. Maybe even more than equal, your value on our side
>isn't based on strength of blood or depth of lineage, its judged by strength of
>heart and depth of character.
Yeah? That easy to be accepted as a runaway? I've heard that you have to
do the proving the other way...... and get the dirty jobs on the other
side of the fence. Mind you I've heard so many things lately..........
>
>Alexandros Phuri-Dae
>Ravnos Antitribu
Cool exit BTW. Invite in the post. <eg>
--
Daria
LiquidSpirit
"Odette" <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:xTI86.4495$ye3.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
two, they simply lie. The Sabbat is a group of savages. Brutality, bloodlust
and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about. Yes,
we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we have
honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something better.
Why then should we wear a mask of ignorance towards the world as it moves
and lower our lives to the ways of animals such as the sabbat do?
And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds for
you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial creatures in
the world. Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful for: They
can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the horrible
Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be of
great advantage. You will find that you have got great value and will be
awarded respectfully for your deeds. You may not be worth being brought into
a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things that may
be interesting to you. You are saver and you will certainly feel better as a
servant of a mighty Camarilla than as a nother bloodbottle for some Sabbat
scum.
I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't care.
Xaver Raidon
Toreador
ByteSized
<liquid...@liquidinformation.com> wrote:
>> Do their archaic ranks really matter in any meaningful way? I sometimes
>feel
>> as if I were a completely different type of creature from those old ones
>who
>> live like that, because it means nothing to me at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes.
>>
>>
>> Odette
>> Caitiff
>>
>Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of these
>two, they simply lie.
So would that make you the kettle, or the pot?
>The Sabbat is a group of savages.
Spoken like a true outsider. It sucks being alone in the world,
doesn't it?
> Brutality, bloodlust
>and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about.
Sweet-cheeks, you don't have a clue as to what is important to us,
which is why you serve as a pawn to the Antidiluvians. You do what
they want you to do. And you do it in ignorance, which is your own
damned fault.
>Yes,
>we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we have
>honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something better.
Yeah, I'll take a double helping of Camarilla honor, please. No, don't
wrap it, just put it into this hollowed out grain of rice I have
handy, there's plenty of room.
>Why then should we wear a mask of ignorance towards the world as it moves
>and lower our lives to the ways of animals such as the sabbat do?
Why indeed? That is a question the Sabbat asks you nightly. Why not
throw off the shackles of your elders oppression, and think for
yourselves?
>And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds for
>you:
Hey, if slavery, or indentured servitude is your thing, man, go for
it.
>No where else do you find such wise old and influencial creatures in
>the world.
Except maybe at a Three Stooges movie marathon.
> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
>things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful for:
Wow, talk about doublespeak. Orwell would kiss your ass, man, you are
that good. Odette, what the nice Camarilla Toreador is saying here, is
that you get to be self-cleaning cannon fodder. You get to be shuffled
across the board, the pawn of a pawn, and do the dirty work, while
they sit back and plan long range.
Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>They
>can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the horrible
>Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be of
>great advantage.
Am I the only one who sees a bigot in that statement?
>You will find that you have got great value and will be
>awarded respectfully for your deeds.
You might get a convenience store, or gas station to crash in, and be
allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't have the
right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
wanna-be's.
>You may not be worth being brought into
>a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things that may
>be interesting to you.
C'mon, you Camarilla guys call this idiot a recruiter? What a maroon.
>You are saver and you will certainly feel better as a
>servant of a mighty Camarilla than as a nother bloodbottle for some Sabbat
>scum.
Look, Odette, the plain and hard truth is - no promises. You might die
tomorrow, you might outlive us all, but the only thing the Sabbat will
assure you is Freedom and Loyalty. Everything else is up to you.
>I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't care.
Actually, I think you are hysterical. Are you sure you want to be a
comedian?
>Xaver Raidon
>Toreador
Angus Duggan
Simon Magid
wrote:
>>Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of these
>>two, they simply lie.
>So would that make you the kettle, or the pot?
I cannot say, possibly he might be the pot boy?
>>The Sabbat is a group of savages.
This is a mind-boggling oversimplification. The Sabbat holds savages
amongst its ranks, of a certainty, but so does the Camarilla if one
looks closely. And I know from personal experience that the Sabbat
also contains scholars, historians, soldiers, martial artists and
indeed e'en ordinary artists. Admittedly I do not particularly care
for what I have seen of Sabbat art but that is beside the point, the
point is that it is certainly more than a mere group of savages. Which
in a way is a relief, 'twould severely disturb me to think that the
Camarilla in five centuries had been unable to destroy a mere group of
savages.
>Spoken like a true outsider. It sucks being alone in the world,
>doesn't it?
That would depend on how one defines the word 'alone'. I do not feel
particularly lonely myself.
>> Brutality, bloodlust
>>and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about.
>Sweet-cheeks, you don't have a clue as to what is important to us,
>which is why you serve as a pawn to the Antidiluvians.
Oh dear, not that tedious old saw again. I must confess, I find this
'pawn to the Antediluvians' slander to be quite as lacking in
inventiveness and bite as its opposite, 'group of savages'.
> You do what
>they want you to do. And you do it in ignorance, which is your own
>damned fault.
>>Yes,
>>we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we have
>>honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something better.
I cannot really see that, merely claiming to be above something does
not make one better than it. And granted that vampires do possess
considerable power they are nonetheless on the whole no more
intelligent than humans are, as well as handicapped with much the same
sins of hubris that mankind itself labours under.
>Yeah, I'll take a double helping of Camarilla honor, please. No, don't
>wrap it, just put it into this hollowed out grain of rice I have
>handy, there's plenty of room.
It is bootless to speak of one's honour in any case, if there was ever
an instance where the adage 'deeds not words' applies it is in the
case of honour, donncha know.
>>Why then should we wear a mask of ignorance towards the world as it moves
>>and lower our lives to the ways of animals such as the sabbat do?
>Why indeed? That is a question the Sabbat asks you nightly. Why not
>throw off the shackles of your elders oppression, and think for
>yourselves?
I must regretfully decline the invitation, I see absolutely no reason
to exchange the bonds of convention and tradition for the enslavement
of the Blood Bond that the Sabbat offers. I have been entrapped by
them once already and suffered for it, I have no intention of letting
this happen again.
>>And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds for
>>you:
M'dear fellah, the social system of the Camarilla is more or less a
consensus fiction imposed by the Clans. If one is so unlucky as to be
trapped outside the Clans as the gentleman originally posting stated
he was, it becomes exceedingly difficult to find a place to stand
unless and until one has gained acceptance into a Clan. This is not
impossible but it is certainly very difficult, I cannot really blame
the Clanless for feeling discouraged by this, hah?
>Hey, if slavery, or indentured servitude is your thing, man, go for
>it.
Yes, yes, if you say so, I have given my oaths and do not intend to go
back on them.
>>No where else do you find such wise old and influencial creatures in
>>the world.
>Except maybe at a Three Stooges movie marathon.
Damnation, take that back, I would never dream of going any such place
and in any case Buffy fan conventions are so much more entertaining to
attend.
>> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
>>things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful for:
>Wow, talk about doublespeak. Orwell would kiss your ass, man, you are
>that good.
Lighter on the sarcasm, please, I find him to be pitifully
transparent.
> Odette, what the nice Camarilla Toreador is saying here, is
>that you get to be self-cleaning cannon fodder. You get to be shuffled
>across the board, the pawn of a pawn, and do the dirty work, while
>they sit back and plan long range.
This is the literal truth and many Camarilla view the Clanless in this
way. Not all, but unhappily enough do so to make it a chancy
proposition for a Clanless to attempt to find himself a place in its
ranks. Though I must admit that I find the notion of the Sabbat being
completely unbiased and egalitarian in matters of Blood to be somewhat
absurd, given the stranglehold of power I understand the Lasombra and
Tzimisce have on that Sect.
>Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
>blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
>any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
>Sabbat is a meritocracy.
Yes, yes, now pull the other one, I understand it gives a quite
enchanting rendition of Jingle Bells.
>>They
>>can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the horrible
>>Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be of
>>great advantage.
>Am I the only one who sees a bigot in that statement?
Not at all, anyone who can read should be able to.
<snip>
>>You may not be worth being brought into
>>a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things that may
>>be interesting to you.
>C'mon, you Camarilla guys call this idiot a recruiter? What a maroon.
I do not know what he is called in the Camarilla at large but I would
label him 'absurdly arrogant'.
>>I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't care.
Not to worry dear fellah, we do not really care about you either.
>>Xaver Raidon
>>Toreador
>Angus Duggan
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
AdamRLee
>>isn't based on strength of blood or depth of lineage, its judged by strength
>of
>>heart and depth of character.
>
>Yeah? That easy to be accepted as a runaway? I've heard that you have to
>do the proving the other way...... and get the dirty jobs on the other
>side of the fence. Mind you I've heard so many things lately..........
Well, as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are savages on both sides.
Yeah, you have to do dirty work to get accepted, but you have to do that on
their side too, the difference is, over there if you do it you get to stay
alive, on our side, if you do it you get to move forward.
>
>>
>>Alexandros Phuri-Dae
>>Ravnos Antitribu
>
>Cool exit BTW. Invite in the post. <eg>
What can I say, i'm a show off.
>--
>Daria
ByteSized
<tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:18:41 GMT, sira...@artlover.com (ByteSized)
>wrote:
>
>>>Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of these
>>>two, they simply lie.
>
>>So would that make you the kettle, or the pot?
>
>I cannot say, possibly he might be the pot boy?
>
>>>The Sabbat is a group of savages.
>
>This is a mind-boggling oversimplification. The Sabbat holds savages
>amongst its ranks, of a certainty, but so does the Camarilla if one
>looks closely. And I know from personal experience that the Sabbat
>also contains scholars, historians, soldiers, martial artists and
>indeed e'en ordinary artists. Admittedly I do not particularly care
>for what I have seen of Sabbat art but that is beside the point, the
>point is that it is certainly more than a mere group of savages. Which
>in a way is a relief, 'twould severely disturb me to think that the
>Camarilla in five centuries had been unable to destroy a mere group of
>savages.
How would you like to go home and tell your momma that you got your
ass whupped by a mere group of savages?
>>Spoken like a true outsider. It sucks being alone in the world,
>>doesn't it?
>
>That would depend on how one defines the word 'alone'. I do not feel
>particularly lonely myself.
No, it must be kind of crowded in there with that other face and all.
>>> Brutality, bloodlust
>>>and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about.
>
>>Sweet-cheeks, you don't have a clue as to what is important to us,
>>which is why you serve as a pawn to the Antidiluvians.
>
>Oh dear, not that tedious old saw again. I must confess, I find this
>'pawn to the Antediluvians' slander to be quite as lacking in
>inventiveness and bite as its opposite, 'group of savages'.
So what are you saying, that you are independant thinkers? Do you
honestly believe that those who are so friggin old that mortal blood
doesn't do it for them is gonna have any cumpunction about drinking
your British ass dry? I just don't plan on making it easier for them,
and if there is a way to prevent it, I'm all for it.
>> You do what
>>they want you to do. And you do it in ignorance, which is your own
>>damned fault.
>
>>>Yes,
>>>we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we have
>>>honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something better.
>
>I cannot really see that, merely claiming to be above something does
>not make one better than it. And granted that vampires do possess
>considerable power they are nonetheless on the whole no more
>intelligent than humans are, as well as handicapped with much the same
>sins of hubris that mankind itself labours under.
But we are not humans. That shit is done with. The plastic morality of
a mortal is a thing of the past. It is frightening to me how many
people long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves
on a rainy day. The rules of the game have changed, and so have the
stakes.
I have heard that rap about how dangerous the humans are in groups,
and they have technology and all. Well, you know what, vampires are
even more dangerous in groups than humans are, and technology is
useful to our side too. Quit whining, and stop with all of this
solitary creature of the night crap.
>>Yeah, I'll take a double helping of Camarilla honor, please. No, don't
>>wrap it, just put it into this hollowed out grain of rice I have
>>handy, there's plenty of room.
>
>It is bootless to speak of one's honour in any case, if there was ever
>an instance where the adage 'deeds not words' applies it is in the
>case of honour, donncha know.
At least this we can agree on. I have to admit, from where I sit, the
Sabbat looks a damn sight more honest than the Camarilla, but hey, I
may be biased.
>>>Why then should we wear a mask of ignorance towards the world as it moves
>>>and lower our lives to the ways of animals such as the sabbat do?
>
>>Why indeed? That is a question the Sabbat asks you nightly. Why not
>>throw off the shackles of your elders oppression, and think for
>>yourselves?
>
>I must regretfully decline the invitation, I see absolutely no reason
>to exchange the bonds of convention and tradition for the enslavement
>of the Blood Bond that the Sabbat offers. I have been entrapped by
>them once already and suffered for it, I have no intention of letting
>this happen again.
You cannot speak to me of slavery, pal, you are yoked seven ways to
Sunday. See, the difference is, I get to choose who I give my loyalty
to, as do those who follow me. Can you truly say the same?
>>>And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds for
>>>you:
>
>M'dear fellah, the social system of the Camarilla is more or less a
>consensus fiction imposed by the Clans. If one is so unlucky as to be
>trapped outside the Clans as the gentleman originally posting stated
>he was, it becomes exceedingly difficult to find a place to stand
>unless and until one has gained acceptance into a Clan. This is not
>impossible but it is certainly very difficult, I cannot really blame
>the Clanless for feeling discouraged by this, hah?
Not at all, it works well, the way your side spits on them and shits
on them, while my side calls them brother, and depends on them. It
works for us, quite well.
>>Hey, if slavery, or indentured servitude is your thing, man, go for
>>it.
>
>Yes, yes, if you say so, I have given my oaths and do not intend to go
>back on them.
At least you know you have the choice. Failing to choose is a choice,
too.
>>>No where else do you find such wise old and influencial creatures in
>>>the world.
>
>>Except maybe at a Three Stooges movie marathon.
>
>Damnation, take that back, I would never dream of going any such place
>and in any case Buffy fan conventions are so much more entertaining to
>attend.
No, I do take that back. What I meant to say was an exhibition of
horse diving.
>>> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
>>>things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful for:
>
>>Wow, talk about doublespeak. Orwell would kiss your ass, man, you are
>>that good.
>
>Lighter on the sarcasm, please, I find him to be pitifully
>transparent.
When dealing with dullards, talk slow and in broad strokes.
>> Odette, what the nice Camarilla Toreador is saying here, is
>>that you get to be self-cleaning cannon fodder. You get to be shuffled
>>across the board, the pawn of a pawn, and do the dirty work, while
>>they sit back and plan long range.
>
>This is the literal truth and many Camarilla view the Clanless in this
>way. Not all, but unhappily enough do so to make it a chancy
>proposition for a Clanless to attempt to find himself a place in its
>ranks. Though I must admit that I find the notion of the Sabbat being
>completely unbiased and egalitarian in matters of Blood to be somewhat
>absurd, given the stranglehold of power I understand the Lasombra and
>Tzimisce have on that Sect.
Modesty prevents me from claiming a meritocracy again, but that really
is the truth of it. It is Darwinism, vampire-style. You either swim
with the sharks, or you feed the sharks. We must be strong to face our
elders with force. The two clans you mentioned had a head start, as
well as being the only two successful in their effort to eliminate
their progenitor.
>>Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
>>blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
>>any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
>>Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>
>Yes, yes, now pull the other one, I understand it gives a quite
>enchanting rendition of Jingle Bells.
C'mere, bring it over here. I'd like to hear that.
>>>They
>>>can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the horrible
>>>Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be of
>>>great advantage.
>
>>Am I the only one who sees a bigot in that statement?
>
>Not at all, anyone who can read should be able to.
Does nobody proofread your copy, Camarilla?
><snip>
>
>>>You may not be worth being brought into
>>>a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things that may
>>>be interesting to you.
>
>>C'mon, you Camarilla guys call this idiot a recruiter? What a maroon.
>
>I do not know what he is called in the Camarilla at large but I would
>label him 'absurdly arrogant'.
Yeah, sure, you guys suck, and you are really lucky we're taking you
in, so grab yourself a bucket and get to work, too bad you missed
dinner.
>>>I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't care.
>
>Not to worry dear fellah, we do not really care about you either.
>
>>>Xaver Raidon
>>>Toreador
>
>>Angus Duggan
>
>Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Angus Duggan
Has no taste for Brits, even when they are where they belong, which is
Britain
Simon Magid
wrote:
>>This is a mind-boggling oversimplification. The Sabbat holds savages
>>amongst its ranks, of a certainty, but so does the Camarilla if one
>>looks closely. And I know from personal experience that the Sabbat
>>also contains scholars, historians, soldiers, martial artists and
>>indeed e'en ordinary artists. Admittedly I do not particularly care
>>for what I have seen of Sabbat art but that is beside the point, the
>>point is that it is certainly more than a mere group of savages. Which
>>in a way is a relief, 'twould severely disturb me to think that the
>>Camarilla in five centuries had been unable to destroy a mere group of
>>savages.
>How would you like to go home and tell your momma that you got your
>ass whupped by a mere group of savages?
Lying on my shield as a good soldier should. Admittedly shields are
somewhat out of fashion these nights yet the principle stands.
>>That would depend on how one defines the word 'alone'. I do not feel
>>particularly lonely myself.
>No, it must be kind of crowded in there with that other face and all.
It makes for some spirited arguments, to be sure. Mind, I prefer that
to moving through unlife whilst being blindly certain that what I am
doing is the only right and true thing and never wondering whether I
am headed in the right direction.
>>Oh dear, not that tedious old saw again. I must confess, I find this
>>'pawn to the Antediluvians' slander to be quite as lacking in
>>inventiveness and bite as its opposite, 'group of savages'.
>So what are you saying, that you are independant thinkers?
No, I am saying that I prefer to argue with an enemy who will present
the cause of his enmity in reasonable terms rather than fall back on
the same tired old propaganda one has heard a thousand times before.
> Do you
>honestly believe that those who are so friggin old that mortal blood
>doesn't do it for them is gonna have any cumpunction about drinking
>your British ass dry?
I would consider it unlikely. Mind, I have yet to encounter reliable
information that confirms the existence of these creatures. On the
other hand, claiming that such creatures exist is likely an excellent
basis for frightening the gullible into blindly following one, or
alternately luring them along some misguided path of heroism.
> I just don't plan on making it easier for them,
>and if there is a way to prevent it, I'm all for it.
Well, should these creatures or reliable information of them turn up
some night I will have been proven wrong and if I yet live after
making the discovery I shall certainly be open to suggestions in that
direction, donncha know.
>>I cannot really see that, merely claiming to be above something does
>>not make one better than it. And granted that vampires do possess
>>considerable power they are nonetheless on the whole no more
>>intelligent than humans are, as well as handicapped with much the same
>>sins of hubris that mankind itself labours under.
>But we are not humans. That shit is done with. The plastic morality of
>a mortal is a thing of the past.
*sigh* My young friend, I was not speaking of morality, I was speaking
of sins of hubris. Have you never seen overconfident vampires?
Egomanical vampires? Greedy vampires? Vengeful vampires? I could go on
but the list is endless. For all our alleged vampiric superiority we
are still saddled with all too many human frailties.
> It is frightening to me how many
>people long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves
>on a rainy day. The rules of the game have changed, and so have the
>stakes.
I do not think so, they are still pointed and wooden, donncha know.
>I have heard that rap about how dangerous the humans are in groups,
>and they have technology and all. Well, you know what, vampires are
>even more dangerous in groups than humans are, and technology is
>useful to our side too.
Of a certainty, but humans come in larger groups and you will notice
that they are the ones who are developing the technology you are
speaking of. I will begin to believe in true vampiric superiority the
precise same moment I see vampires as a species better the humans
intellectually.
> Quit whining, and stop with all of this
>solitary creature of the night crap.
Absolutely, as soon as you desist boasting and cease with your prattle
of vague future dooms.
>>It is bootless to speak of one's honour in any case, if there was ever
>>an instance where the adage 'deeds not words' applies it is in the
>>case of honour, donncha know.
>At least this we can agree on.
A point of agreement, I may swoon.
> I have to admit, from where I sit, the
>Sabbat looks a damn sight more honest than the Camarilla, but hey, I
>may be biased.
Ah well, at least it did not last for very long. Possibly as well or
eventually the value of Travis' holdings in the smelling salt
companies would go through the roof.
>>I must regretfully decline the invitation, I see absolutely no reason
>>to exchange the bonds of convention and tradition for the enslavement
>>of the Blood Bond that the Sabbat offers. I have been entrapped by
>>them once already and suffered for it, I have no intention of letting
>>this happen again.
>You cannot speak to me of slavery, pal, you are yoked seven ways to
>Sunday.
Yes, yes, again the Sabbat prates of its wonderful freedom.
Considering how eager it is to enslave others to obtain its goals I
admit that I do not feel very convinced.
> See, the difference is, I get to choose who I give my loyalty
>to, as do those who follow me. Can you truly say the same?
I am a sight more free today, now that the Sabbat who trapped me in a
Blood Bond lies in dust and ashes. Oddly enow she did not allow me
much choice or freedom while she yet lived, possibly she had not heard
of the wonderful principles of freedom the Sabbat embodies. Pfahh!
>>M'dear fellah, the social system of the Camarilla is more or less a
>>consensus fiction imposed by the Clans. If one is so unlucky as to be
>>trapped outside the Clans as the gentleman originally posting stated
>>he was, it becomes exceedingly difficult to find a place to stand
>>unless and until one has gained acceptance into a Clan. This is not
>>impossible but it is certainly very difficult, I cannot really blame
>>the Clanless for feeling discouraged by this, hah?
>Not at all, it works well, the way your side spits on them and shits
>on them, while my side calls them brother, and depends on them. It
>works for us, quite well.
I doubt not the truth of this and it fills my mouth with bile.
Hypocrisy and idiocy is certainly not limited to the Sabbat; this be
proof of it if nothing else is.
>>Yes, yes, if you say so, I have given my oaths and do not intend to go
>>back on them.
>At least you know you have the choice. Failing to choose is a choice,
>too.
A fact of which I am well aware. I have chosen my ground, here I shall
remain.
>>Damnation, take that back, I would never dream of going any such place
>>and in any case Buffy fan conventions are so much more entertaining to
>>attend.
>No, I do take that back. What I meant to say was an exhibition of
>horse diving.
Ah well, it cannot be other than an intellectual improvement when
compared to attending a gathering of Sabbat speechmakers.
>>This is the literal truth and many Camarilla view the Clanless in this
>>way. Not all, but unhappily enough do so to make it a chancy
>>proposition for a Clanless to attempt to find himself a place in its
>>ranks. Though I must admit that I find the notion of the Sabbat being
>>completely unbiased and egalitarian in matters of Blood to be somewhat
>>absurd, given the stranglehold of power I understand the Lasombra and
>>Tzimisce have on that Sect.
>Modesty prevents me from claiming a meritocracy again, but that really
>is the truth of it. It is Darwinism, vampire-style. You either swim
>with the sharks, or you feed the sharks. We must be strong to face our
>elders with force. The two clans you mentioned had a head start, as
>well as being the only two successful in their effort to eliminate
>their progenitor.
So you are saying that the Lasombra and the Tzimisce are most fit to
rule. How does this fit with your claims of egalitarianism?
>>Not at all, anyone who can read should be able to.
>Does nobody proofread your copy, Camarilla?
Of course, that is what I pay my Antediluvian ghost writer to do.
<snip>
>>>>You may not be worth being brought into
>>>>a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things that may
>>>>be interesting to you.
>>>C'mon, you Camarilla guys call this idiot a recruiter? What a maroon.
>>I do not know what he is called in the Camarilla at large but I would
>>label him 'absurdly arrogant'.
>Yeah, sure, you guys suck, and you are really lucky we're taking you
>in, so grab yourself a bucket and get to work, too bad you missed
>dinner.
That would seem to be the gist of the fellahs words, inasmuch as there
can even be said to be one.
>Angus Duggan
>Has no taste for Brits, even when they are where they belong, which is
>Britain
Excuse me but you have confused me, earlier you said that you had put
the plastic morality of humanity behind you so how is it that you yet
cling to matters pertaining to mortal nations?
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Shadowdragon
> >
This is what the Caitiff are useful for: They
> can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the
horrible
> Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be
of
> great advantage.
we have eyes and ears everywhere...and the cost for anything you may
require in the next few centuries just tripled. We may be twisted on
the outside, but we are no where near as twisted and perverted as your
clan is on the inside...we just don't hide it behind the fake facade of
beauty and art.
Max, Clan Nosferatu
--
Don't argue with dragons, cause you are crunchy and taste good with
peanut butter.
ICQ # 84471717
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Odette
"LiquidSpirit" <liquid...@liquidinformation.com> wrote:
>
> Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of
these
> two, they simply lie.
I'm stung by the suggestion that I am a typical caitiff. I don't even
know any others. But really, why should I lie?
> And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds
for
> you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial
creatures in
> the world.
I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child. But
I'm not bitter, if you are happy with your world then have fun with it.
I never saw these laudatory individuals for myself, but maybe they have
better things to do than waste hot air on caitiffs.
The social system the Camarilla held for me didn't seem too flustered
when one of its members privately created new vampires for blood or
profit. I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply. But I say that their laws
don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
> things that are near at hand.
Like nursemaids?
> I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
care.
I'm not offended. Merely reflective that I have met humans with fewer
prejudices than this -- and when I was alive I hope that I was one of
them.
Odette
Caitiff
--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
---> G K Chesterton < ---
Odette
sira...@artlover.com wrote:
> > >Yes,
> >we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we
have
> >honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something
better.
>
> Yeah, I'll take a double helping of Camarilla honor, please. No, don't
> wrap it, just put it into this hollowed out grain of rice I have
> handy, there's plenty of room.
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
> > Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
> >things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful
for:
>
>
> Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
> blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
> any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
> Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>
I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
> >You will find that you have got great value and will be
> >awarded respectfully for your deeds.
>
> You might get a convenience store, or gas station to crash in, and be
> allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't have the
> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
> wanna-be's.
I am not quite clear on what you mean by Elysium, but I assume from
your tone that lack of access to one is something I ought to bemoan?
It does sound as though I should get more practice at 'faking a clan'
for defensive purposes. I don't see that it can be very difficult,
given that vampires seem to lie a great deal in any case. And Xaver
seems to think that I should feel dreadful because I don't have one.
I feel fine.
>
> Look, Odette, the plain and hard truth is - no promises. You might die
> tomorrow, you might outlive us all, but the only thing the Sabbat will
> assure you is Freedom and Loyalty. Everything else is up to you.
Angus, I appreciate the honesty. But I have freedom now -- for the
moment at least -- and if I want loyalty, I can get a dog. I don't know
if your goals and your groups' goals are the same as my goals. People
do often say Sabbat and bloodbath in the same sentence, so excuse my
caution.
A year ago I was a vegetarian and I went to yoga classes, and helped at
the Samaritans at weekends. I would have said that I was a quiet person
who wouldn't have been capable of killing even if my life depended on
it. I was wrong. But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do with
the rest of my (un)life yet.
>
> >I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
care.
I don't believe you. But see! We are reacting!
>
> Actually, I think you are hysterical. Are you sure you want to be a
> comedian?
>
> >Xaver Raidon
> >Toreador
>
> Angus Duggan
>
Odette
Shadowdragon
Odette <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <93vkng$ms$1...@freenet-b.fen.baynet.de>,
> "LiquidSpirit" <liquid...@liquidinformation.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of
> these
> > two, they simply lie.
>
> I'm stung by the suggestion that I am a typical caitiff. I don't even
> know any others. But really, why should I lie?
>
definately not a "typical" caitiff. Instead you sound more like one
who unbiasedly watches and obseverves before making a final
decision....very wise. And ther is no reason to lie, you have the
blood of Caine flowing through you, which makes you no less than any
other vampire....so they can trace back to a third gen...so what..who
started it all...that's what really counts. After all, if you trace
everyone's lineage back far enough, they all are related.
> > And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds
> for
> > you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial
> creatures in
> > the world.
>
> I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
> creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child. But
> I'm not bitter, if you are happy with your world then have fun with
it.
> I never saw these laudatory individuals for myself, but maybe they
have
> better things to do than waste hot air on caitiffs.
>
doors. Fools, the whole lot of 'em.
> The social system the Camarilla held for me didn't seem too flustered
> when one of its members privately created new vampires for blood or
> profit. I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
> untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
> powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply. But I say that their
laws
> don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
>
like I'm the bad ass elder in town, kneel before me and quake, or I'll
have my hired thugs beat you senseless.
> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
> > things that are near at hand.
>
> Like nursemaids?
>
> > I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
> care.
>
> I'm not offended. Merely reflective that I have met humans with fewer
> prejudices than this -- and when I was alive I hope that I was one of
> them.
>
> Odette
> Caitiff
> --
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
and irritated by everyone who doesn't toe the line the way "they"
consider proper.
Taen (I'm not naming my clan :P )
--
Don't argue with dragons, cause you are crunchy and taste good with
peanut butter.
ICQ # 84471717
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
>> blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
>> any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
>> Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
I am not entirely sure but I visited Deja, a previous poster here
claimed that the word 'Pander' was Danish slang and meant 'Idiots'.
Admittedly I am not sure that I would trust this claim, while it may
be literally true I doubt this is what these Panders had in mind when
they selected their name, what?
>> You might get a convenience store, or gas station to crash in, and be
>> allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't have the
>> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
>> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
>> wanna-be's.
>I am not quite clear on what you mean by Elysium, but I assume from
>your tone that lack of access to one is something I ought to bemoan?
That would depend, personally I may be entitled to go there but
usually do so only as Duty compels me to, I have little to say to
those there and do not desire to either participate in or listen to
the social feuds and verbal warfare that is all too often the stock in
trade there.
>It does sound as though I should get more practice at 'faking a clan'
>for defensive purposes. I don't see that it can be very difficult,
>given that vampires seem to lie a great deal in any case. And Xaver
>seems to think that I should feel dreadful because I don't have one.
It depends on just how good a liar you are as well as whether you are
able to convincingly imitate a Clan's abilities and weakness. As a
rule of thumb I suggest that you initially at least hold off from
attempting to impersonate a Clan where actual members are present,
'twould be bally embarrassing to be caught out because one is not
aware of the passwords and the secret handshakes, donncha know.
>I feel fine.
Excellent, a toast to you, then.
>Angus, I appreciate the honesty. But I have freedom now -- for the
>moment at least -- and if I want loyalty, I can get a dog. I don't know
>if your goals and your groups' goals are the same as my goals. People
>do often say Sabbat and bloodbath in the same sentence, so excuse my
>caution.
>A year ago I was a vegetarian and I went to yoga classes, and helped at
>the Samaritans at weekends. I would have said that I was a quiet person
>who wouldn't have been capable of killing even if my life depended on
>it. I was wrong. But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
>are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do with
>the rest of my (un)life yet.
Then do not hurry, if you play your cards wisely you have centuries or
e'en millenniae, hah?
<snip>
>Odette
>Caitiff
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of
>these
>> two, they simply lie.
>I'm stung by the suggestion that I am a typical caitiff. I don't even
>know any others. But really, why should I lie?
A host of reasons, m'dear, for example you might be a Ventrue wishing
to lure specimens like the one above into making fools of themselves
<g>.
>> And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds
>for
>> you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial
>creatures in
>> the world.
>I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
>creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child. But
>I'm not bitter, if you are happy with your world then have fun with it.
It sounds like a fearfully lonely place, mind.
>I never saw these laudatory individuals for myself, but maybe they have
>better things to do than waste hot air on caitiffs.
'Tis devoutly to be hoped, I myself am in no shortage of hot air as
you may have noticed <g>.
>The social system the Camarilla held for me didn't seem too flustered
>when one of its members privately created new vampires for blood or
>profit.
This does occur, it is normally considered a crime but exceptions will
at times apply.
> I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
>untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
>powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply.
Indeed, one law for the rich, one for the poor, and a completely
separate one for the ultra-rich, donncha know. And in the case of
these last it is not as much a law as a series of rough guidelines, as
my Great Grandsires is wont to say.
> But I say that their laws
>don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
To a degree this is true, their laws do not apply to you unless you
get caught, I would suggest to you that you endeavour to avoid this
last as I find your digital company rather refreshing, donncha know.
>> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
>> things that are near at hand.
>Like nursemaids?
And for locating their spectacles, perhaps.
Steve Griffin
>
> Angus Duggan
Duggan, how goes your existence? I can barely follow this talk of
Sabbat and Camarilla, but am keen for news of you. Do you still hold
sway over your tribe?
M.
Qvod me nvtrit me destrvit
Simon Magid
>Well, as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are savages on both sides.
All too true and do not be fooled by appearances, one of the most
brutal and ruthless Cainites I have ever met wore elegant dresses,
danced like an angel and conversed knowledgeably on the sciences and
the philosophies.
>Yeah, you have to do dirty work to get accepted, but you have to do that on
>their side too, the difference is, over there if you do it you get to stay
>alive, on our side, if you do it you get to move forward.
While this may be true from your point of view I would nonetheless
stress that moving forward works best as a strategy if one is moving
in the correct direction.
>>>Alexandros Phuri-Dae
>>>Ravnos Antitribu
>What can I say, i'm a show off.
And long may you continue to be one if you do it as elegantly as you
did in Morocco. Incidentally, I decided that the only right thing to
do with the profit I made from your efforts would be to discreetly
donate it to needy Gypsies, I discovered that those who currently live
in Roumania are suffering from hard times so I made sure that the
money would find its way there.
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
ByteSized
<tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:39:50 GMT, Odette <copper...@my-deja.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
>>> blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
>>> any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
>>> Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>
>>I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
>
>I am not entirely sure but I visited Deja, a previous poster here
>claimed that the word 'Pander' was Danish slang and meant 'Idiots'.
>Admittedly I am not sure that I would trust this claim, while it may
>be literally true I doubt this is what these Panders had in mind when
>they selected their name, what?
Panders are not really a clan, per se, in the strictest sense of the
word (they have no progenitor from the Third Generation) They are
essentially a clan due to the egalitarian nature of unlife in the
Sabbat.
See, in the late '50's a clanless guy name of Joseph Pander united all
the clanless Sabbat, and demanded recognition. Well, in a society that
value freedom and loyalty over all else, you can imagine what happened
- Civil War. But the truth is Pander and his crew did very well for
themselves. They bested experienced squads that far outpowered them.
They worked together cohesively, and they kicked ass. So they
impressed the big boys up the line, and they got what they wanted,
recognition.
Think of them as I do, as the 'Miscellaneous Clan'. If you don't know
what clan you are, boom, you're a Pander. They do have the added
advantage of not having intrinsic ties to any one clan, when you think
about it. But the mutts are loyal, because here they don't start with
two strikes against them. Say whatever you please about the Sabbat, it
has far less bigotry built into the system than our opposite number.
And we reward success.
>>> You might get a convenience store, or gas station to crash in, and be
>>> allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't have the
>>> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
>>> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
>>> wanna-be's.
>
>>I am not quite clear on what you mean by Elysium, but I assume from
>>your tone that lack of access to one is something I ought to bemoan?
Yeah, if you are a Camarilla wanker who needs to be told where he can
hang out and when, and with whom.
>That would depend, personally I may be entitled to go there but
>usually do so only as Duty compels me to, I have little to say to
>those there and do not desire to either participate in or listen to
>the social feuds and verbal warfare that is all too often the stock in
>trade there.
Point in your favor, Shane, even if you are a British Cammie poof.
There is some good in us all.
>>It does sound as though I should get more practice at 'faking a clan'
>>for defensive purposes. I don't see that it can be very difficult,
>>given that vampires seem to lie a great deal in any case. And Xaver
>>seems to think that I should feel dreadful because I don't have one.
>
>It depends on just how good a liar you are as well as whether you are
>able to convincingly imitate a Clan's abilities and weakness. As a
>rule of thumb I suggest that you initially at least hold off from
>attempting to impersonate a Clan where actual members are present,
>'twould be bally embarrassing to be caught out because one is not
>aware of the passwords and the secret handshakes, donncha know.
Just have a look about and see what clan usually possesses the same
kind of abilitie(s) you find that you have, and claim that clan, as a
newblie, and presume to be less skilled than your truly are. But under
no circumstance claim to be a Malkavian, simply because it seems
'fakeable'. Trust me, it is not.
>>I feel fine.
>
>Excellent, a toast to you, then.
You want white, or dark meat?
>>Angus, I appreciate the honesty. But I have freedom now -- for the
>>moment at least -- and if I want loyalty, I can get a dog. I don't know
>>if your goals and your groups' goals are the same as my goals. People
>>do often say Sabbat and bloodbath in the same sentence, so excuse my
>>caution.
>
>>A year ago I was a vegetarian and I went to yoga classes, and helped at
>>the Samaritans at weekends. I would have said that I was a quiet person
>>who wouldn't have been capable of killing even if my life depended on
>>it. I was wrong. But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
>>are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do with
>>the rest of my (un)life yet.
>
>Then do not hurry, if you play your cards wisely you have centuries or
>e'en millenniae, hah?
Maybe. and maybe not. Maybe you have months, kiddo, and maybe only
nights. Truth is, neither side knows.
I cannot choose for you, just tell you to look past mortal morality,
to work with others, rather than alone, to treat them all like family
and trust them like strangers.
I got someone watching my back. do you?
ByteSized
<st...@polgooth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Duggan, how goes your existence? I can barely follow this talk of
>Sabbat and Camarilla, but am keen for news of you. Do you still hold
>sway over your tribe?
So far so good, I guess. Since I greased the guy I got the job from,
and nobody has greased me yet, I still have it. And two or three
others besides, really. I am learning a great deal about vampire
history, and learning to tend the spiritual needs of my pack, and
learning how to fight and kill something that is already undead. Add
to that the need to be ringmaster to a one ring circus of cuthroats
and maniacs, I guess my nights are pretty full.
No, seriously, my gang is great, we scored big time New Year's Eve.
Capped ourselves a Prince. Small time guy, toady to the Prince of
Boston, but what the hell, we just eroded a big chunk of King's
support structure, so take that you Camarilla pricks. I'm very proud
of them, they really came together.
Not everything is peaches and diesel, though. One of my crew was
murdered, head cut off right in his own haven, and I have about half
of the answers I need to figure out what the hell happened there. This
happened just before the New Year's gig, so I don't think that's
related. I'm damned if I know how they got in there.
So unlife goes on. How's by you?
BTW, if you are looking for a vampire to show you about technology, I
can recommend a good Independant operator, in the American North East.
>M.
>Qvod me nvtrit me destrvit
Angus Duggan
Kevin Pople
deja.com> writes
>In article <3a636346....@news.ne.mediaone.net>,
> sira...@artlover.com wrote:
>> > >Yes,
>> >we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we
>have
>> >honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something
>better.
>>
>> Yeah, I'll take a double helping of Camarilla honor, please. No, don't
>> wrap it, just put it into this hollowed out grain of rice I have
>> handy, there's plenty of room.
>
>"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons."
>Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>>
>>
>> Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers in
>> blood, equals, the Panders have every bit as much workable clout as
>> any other clan. It's all in what you do with it. Unlike the Cam, the
>> Sabbat is a meritocracy.
>>
>
>I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
>
founder, Joseph Pander. Actually I guess they are more of a union than a
Clan in the accepted sense but they are accorded the same status in the
Sabbat more or less.
>> >You will find that you have got great value and will be
>> >awarded respectfully for your deeds.
>>
>> You might get a convenience store, or gas station to crash in, and be
>> allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't have the
>> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
>> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
>> wanna-be's.
>
>I am not quite clear on what you mean by Elysium, but I assume from
>your tone that lack of access to one is something I ought to bemoan?
>
Not really.
>It does sound as though I should get more practice at 'faking a clan'
>for defensive purposes. I don't see that it can be very difficult,
>given that vampires seem to lie a great deal in any case. And Xaver
>seems to think that I should feel dreadful because I don't have one.
>
>I feel fine.
>
It's a status thing, plus I've noticed Cammmie old guys get torqued
whenever Caitiff show up. Claim to be a Toreador and gawp a lot at
paintings, or a Brujah and act angry. Hell they may be stereotypes, but
folks expect stereotypes.
>>
>> Look, Odette, the plain and hard truth is - no promises. You might die
>> tomorrow, you might outlive us all, but the only thing the Sabbat will
>> assure you is Freedom and Loyalty. Everything else is up to you.
>
>Angus, I appreciate the honesty. But I have freedom now -- for the
>moment at least -- and if I want loyalty, I can get a dog. I don't know
>if your goals and your groups' goals are the same as my goals. People
>do often say Sabbat and bloodbath in the same sentence, so excuse my
>caution.
>
Yep, that's about right, and wrong.
>A year ago I was a vegetarian and I went to yoga classes, and helped at
>the Samaritans at weekends. I would have said that I was a quiet person
>who wouldn't have been capable of killing even if my life depended on
>it. I was wrong. But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
>are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do with
>the rest of my (un)life yet.
>
I hope you get the chance to decide before some scourge nails you or
some warlord conscripts you as cannon fodder. But hell if you just want
to hide, fine.
>>
>> >I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
>care.
>
>I don't believe you. But see! We are reacting!
>
>>
>> Actually, I think you are hysterical. Are you sure you want to be a
>> comedian?
>>
>> >Xaver Raidon
>> >Toreador
>>
>> Angus Duggan
>>
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
--
Travis
Clan Lasombra
Seekers of Perfection
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <93vkng$ms$1...@freenet-b.fen.baynet.de>,
> "LiquidSpirit" <liquid...@liquidinformation.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of
>these
>> two, they simply lie.
>
>I'm stung by the suggestion that I am a typical caitiff. I don't even
>know any others. But really, why should I lie?
>
>
>> And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds
>for
>> you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial
>creatures in
>> the world.
>
>I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
>creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child.
Well the wise (hah!), old influential monster probably knows how to do
it causing the maximum pain and minimum permanent injury. Or is that not
what you meant? :-)
> But
>I'm not bitter, if you are happy with your world then have fun with it.
>I never saw these laudatory individuals for myself, but maybe they have
>better things to do than waste hot air on caitiffs.
>
No doubt they were busy polishing their unicorn horns and chatting to
mermaids.
>The social system the Camarilla held for me didn't seem too flustered
>when one of its members privately created new vampires for blood or
>profit. I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
>untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
>powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply.
Precisely the problem, it is a medieval society, where power and
privilege rule. The Princes dictate, the masses obey. OF course there
are doubtless fair princes, but in a society where might (in whatever
form) makes right, what price justice?
> But I say that their laws
>don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
>
Sounds like an Anarch to me. ;-)
> Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
>> things that are near at hand.
>
>Like nursemaids?
>
Advisors, those who understand modern things. And convenient disposable
Cainites full of blood.
>> I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
>care.
>
>I'm not offended. Merely reflective that I have met humans with fewer
>prejudices than this -- and when I was alive I hope that I was one of
>them.
>
*Shrug*
Why should being dead make one less prejudiced. Admittedly it can make
one rapidly re-evaluate some preconceptions.
>Odette
>Caitiff
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Istvan Batory
Tzimisce
"Ask not for mercy, for I have none to give."
OSF
> >>> ......and be allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't
have the
> >>> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
> >>> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
> >>> wanna-be's.
You are moaning and bitching about this ideal and that ideal. Then when it
is mentioned that we suffer from some of the same failings as humans
(ie.bigotry, greed, psychosis, et al.) you say we are above them and their
petty failings, then turn around and curse those horrible Nosferatu. Now I
know coming from a mutt this isn't going to go over well, but you guys have
some of the most meglomaniacal creatures among your ranks I have ever seen.
Take that freak Sascha for example. That is simply the epitome of every
human and vampire vice there is.
I do not get this political propaganda from either side. I have seen the
most hideous beasts reside on both sides of the party line. And, both are
guilty of manipulating the clanless and young. And there are elders on both
sides who will use their underlings in any way they bloody well see fit.
I have learned much from both sides as some of my clan seems to reside in
both camps as well as apart from all of them. If there are any who truly
completely think for themselves it is those who have learned to survive
outside of both parties.
Respectfully,
Obsidian Silverfang
Clan Gangrel
AdamRLee
>
>
>All too true and do not be fooled by appearances, one of the most
>brutal and ruthless Cainites I have ever met wore elegant dresses,
>danced like an angel and conversed knowledgeably on the sciences and
>the philosophies.
Cristian never wears dresses ;) At least, not that I've seen...
>>What can I say, i'm a show off.
>
>And long may you continue to be one if you do it as elegantly as you
>did in Morocco. Incidentally, I decided that the only right thing to
>do with the profit I made from your efforts would be to discreetly
>donate it to needy Gypsies, I discovered that those who currently live
>in Roumania are suffering from hard times so I made sure that the
>money would find its way there.
I appreciate the gesture. And I'm glad you put your money on me, that was
smart. I knew I'd win...
>
>Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
>
Alexandros
Simon Magid
<See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The Caitiff within the Sabbat are formed into a Clan named after it's
>founder, Joseph Pander. Actually I guess they are more of a union than a
>Clan in the accepted sense but they are accorded the same status in the
>Sabbat more or less.
Ah, that would explain it, this does indeed seem more likely than a
group of vampires proudly naming themselves 'Idiots' in Danish, hah?
Incidentally, welcome back m'lady Travis, I trust your smelling salts
holdings are doing well.
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Simon Magid
>>All too true and do not be fooled by appearances, one of the most
>>brutal and ruthless Cainites I have ever met wore elegant dresses,
>>danced like an angel and conversed knowledgeably on the sciences and
>>the philosophies.
>Cristian never wears dresses ;) At least, not that I've seen...
I only rarely do so while in a male form, brother. The last time I did
so was while impersonating Queen Ingrid of Denmark, oh, some forty
years ago; I was attempting to win a bet at the time. Unfortunately,
the real queen showed just a few minutes before I had expected her to,
so I had to leave rather abruptly.
*regretful sigh*
If _only_ she had waited another five minutes or so, I had almost
managed to sell the Royal Palace by the time she appeared...
>Alexandros
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce real estate broker
Simon Magid
>>And long may you continue to be one if you do it as elegantly as you
>>did in Morocco. Incidentally, I decided that the only right thing to
>>do with the profit I made from your efforts would be to discreetly
>>donate it to needy Gypsies, I discovered that those who currently live
>>in Roumania are suffering from hard times so I made sure that the
>>money would find its way there.
>I appreciate the gesture. And I'm glad you put your money on me, that was
>smart. I knew I'd win...
Indeed, not to mention that I had no desire to place as much as a
single farthing on that odious creature. I would thank you for the
vast service you performed for Clan Ventrue that night were it not for
the fact that that would be damning you with faint praise, I do
believe that it would be more correct to say that you did every
Cainite in the world a favour by ensuring that that buffoon will no
longer be around to drag the reputation of vampires through the mud.
>Alexandros
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Simon Magid
<ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>The social system the Camarilla held for me didn't seem too flustered
>>when one of its members privately created new vampires for blood or
>>profit. I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
>>untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
>>powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply.
>Precisely the problem, it is a medieval society, where power and
>privilege rule. The Princes dictate, the masses obey. OF course there
>are doubtless fair princes, but in a society where might (in whatever
>form) makes right, what price justice?
It varies but it usually goes to the highest bidder, I understand.
Mind, there are times where simply being very powerful and rich will
not be sufficient to obtain it for one as the one in charge may view
one as a threat, donncha know.
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
ByteSized
wrote:
>> >>> Course, he doesn't mention that the Sabbat welcomes you as brothers
>in......
>
>> >>> ......and be allowed to be turned away from Elysiums because you don't
>have the
>> >>> right school tie. You will be granted secondary citizen status, and
>> >>> looked down on by all the bluebloods and the effetes, and the
>> >>> wanna-be's.
>
>You are moaning and bitching about this ideal and that ideal.
Umm, excuse me friend. You wanna point out to me exactly where I could
be said to have bitched or moaned?
>Then when it
>is mentioned that we suffer from some of the same failings as humans
>(ie.bigotry, greed, psychosis, et al.) you say we are above them and their
>petty failings, then turn around and curse those horrible Nosferatu.
You obviously have me confused with someone else. My closest friend in
the world is Nosferatu, and you are not worth the crud he scrapes off
his open sores, buttmunch.
And nowhere do I claim we are above human failings. Go back and read
it again. I say we are above mortal morality, the strictures of human
right and wrong that we learned at our momma's ankles. We are every
bit as venal, selfish, and ill behaved as they are, we are just more
honest about it. So what?
> Now I
>know coming from a mutt this isn't going to go over well, but you guys have
>some of the most meglomaniacal creatures among your ranks I have ever seen.
No argument from me. So what?
>Take that freak Sascha for example. That is simply the epitome of every
>human and vampire vice there is.
I've only heard the tales, never met. But I repeat myself - so what?
>I do not get this political propaganda from either side. I have seen the
>most hideous beasts reside on both sides of the party line. And, both are
>guilty of manipulating the clanless and young. And there are elders on both
>sides who will use their underlings in any way they bloody well see fit.
No argument again. The question is: which ones are saying - oh no, not
us, we are the good guys, look we have the white hats and everything?
Denial is more than a river in Egypt.
>I have learned much from both sides as some of my clan seems to reside in
>both camps as well as apart from all of them. If there are any who truly
>completely think for themselves it is those who have learned to survive
>outside of both parties.
Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. But I'm sure that does not
surprise you.
>Respectfully,
So you were being respectful when you misinterpreted my words and were
calling me a bigot, is that it?
>Obsidian Silverfang
>Clan Gangrel
Angus Duggan
Kevin Pople
<tali...@inet.uni2.dk> writes
>On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:51:10 +0000, Kevin Pople
><See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>The Caitiff within the Sabbat are formed into a Clan named after it's
>>founder, Joseph Pander. Actually I guess they are more of a union than a
>>Clan in the accepted sense but they are accorded the same status in the
>>Sabbat more or less.
>
>Ah, that would explain it, this does indeed seem more likely than a
>group of vampires proudly naming themselves 'Idiots' in Danish, hah?
Or Carrot soup in Polish for that matter, or Big belly in French, or
after a bullfighter? *g*
>Incidentally, welcome back m'lady Travis, I trust your smelling salts
>holdings are doing well.
>
Reasonably so, reasonably.
>Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
--
Travis
Lasombra
Seekers of Perfection
Spider-ic
"LiquidSpirit" <liquid...@liquidinformation.com> wrote:
> Well, well that is typical Caitiff talk... don't listen to either of
these
> two, they simply lie.
Prove it. Do not spit out what you cannot back.
> The Sabbat is a group of savages. Brutality, bloodlust
> and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about.
And you are a cur, a dog that speaks and a fool.
Pissy yet?
See? That's about all your words are worth, anger. There is no
backing it.
I care about my art. I care about beauty. I have found friends and
family denied to me by many a camarilla prince. I have a sister who
does not belong to my sect who is closer than blood to me. I have a
family who are not of the same clan and they mean more to me than any
Prince ever did.
I speak languages you've never heard. I know songs that haven't been
song on this earth in centuries. I can ride horses and camel. I can
swim like a fish, even as a kindred. I can fight or I can debate. I
know the difference between a good wine and a bad one and can hazard a
guess as to what in the creation process made it thus.
I am also a Sabbat member. I am Ductus of a pack. I *left* the
Camarilla and found a home.
How is that for the other side?
Yes,
> we are serpents. Creatures of the night- children of Caine. But we
have
> honor and are said to be above human-kind thus making us something
better.
Do not talk to me of honor. I'm rather sure that several people here
have more honor than you, childe. And we have suffered for it. Oh,
did I mention that some of the most honorable people on the newsgroup
are Tzimisce? And Sabbat?
> Why then should we wear a mask of ignorance towards the world as it
moves
> and lower our lives to the ways of animals such as the sabbat do?
> And you should be happy about the social system the Caramillas holds
for
> you: No where else do you find such wise old and influencial
creatures in
> the world.
We have Elders in the Sabbat. In fact, I think by technicality, I am
one of them. I know there are a number of Elders of various blood
lines in it. Including one who very well might be Caitiff.
Believe me: The Old are farsighted but sometimes need help at
> things that are near at hand. This is what the Caitiff are useful
for: They
> can move even less seen between humans than any others (except the
horrible
> Nosferatu who can luckily render themselves invisible!) which can be
of
> great advantage.
Translation: Die like a lacky, caitiff. Be glad you can sacrifice so
some pomous ass can be safe by day.
And as for Nosferatu being able to disapper... Other can, other
learn. Nothing is as shocking as having a group of Tzimisce and
toreador pop out of nowwhere. Or a gang of Malkavians.
You will find that you have got great value and will be
> awarded respectfully for your deeds. You may not be worth being
brought into
> a clan, but there are still things such as money and err... things
that may
> be interesting to you. You are saver and you will certainly feel
better as a
> servant of a mighty Camarilla than as a nother bloodbottle for some
Sabbat
> scum.
> I hope I have not offended anybody here although then again I don't
care.
You do not offend me. You simply cause me to pity you.
But are you happy?
> Xaver Raidon
> Toreador
J'Zikal Aur
Toreador by the Blood
Anti-Tribu by choice
Ductus of the Walking Shadows
"Ask me not for mercy. If ye be men of honor you will die like men of
honor."
Spider-ic
"OSF" <gaij...@earthCLUNKlink.net> wrote:
Now I
> know coming from a mutt this isn't going to go over well, but you
guys have
> some of the most meglomaniacal creatures among your ranks I have ever
seen.
You haven't gotten it yet? Most of us on this newsgroup don't give a
shit what your clan is. Stop using it like a banner of the underdog
and just talk man!
> Take that freak Sascha for example. That is simply the epitome of
every
> human and vampire vice there is.
There was a elder I knew once. He tortured people, women and
children mostly. He razed villages cause he got bored or because they
had dared to look at his dwelling. He blood bound people to be able to
cause them to hate each other so he could watch them try to kill each
other and not let him know so they could still have his favor. He
embraced a pregnant woman once just to see what would happen to her
child.
I can keep going. He actually managed to convince several people to
sell their souls, just to turn them over to those with burning faith.
He raped any woman who would not sleep with him, then he would kill
those that did so willingly for being harlots. He went out of his way
to destroy lives. He nearly destroyed mine.
He was not a Tzimisce nor a lasombra nor Sabbat. There was no such
thing. And when the Camarilla formed, he joined. He is still a part
of it today.
*all* sides have their flawed people.
> Respectfully,
>
> Obsidian Silverfang
> Clan Gangrel
The Piper, anon
OSF
> surprise you.
>
> >Respectfully,
>
> So you were being respectful when you misinterpreted my words and were
> calling me a bigot, is that it?
>
misinterpret the way they came across. I agree with many things from both
sides of this fight. And I certainly agree with you that the Nos are some
of the most level headed of the bunch. I would not care to make one my
enemy and would be honored to even be respected by them.
As far as Sascha goes I ran across it in my travels in Eastern
Europe --once-- a thing I would prefer never to happen again. The only
reason I was able to get away was he was preoccupied with another of my clan
and a woman who moved like an undead ninja. Never have figured out who
those two were. The screams coming from that ediface haunt me to this day.
>No argument again. The question is: which ones are saying - oh no, not
>us, we are the good guys, look we have the white hats and everything?
>Denial is more than a river in Egypt.
Granted.
>Sorry, but I can't agree with you there. But I'm sure that does not
>surprise you.
No, doesn't surprise me. But, then if you agreed with me you would be very
*boring* to have a conversation with.
joa...@der-joachim.myweb.nospam.nl
: Hello, CN.
:> This is um.. my second posting here. Not having had a life in my mortal
:> days, some bastard Embraced me for insulting him. To make matters worse,
:> this Sire of mine appears to be the lowest runt in Vamp.. uhm.. Kindred
:> society. Damn.
: Why do you say that you didn't have a life?
Looking back upon my mortal days, I just didn't. Maybe my uhm.. change
was a much-needed impetus to make something of it. Not that I have a
real life now, in the sense of breathing and other essential functions.
At least it is more exciting.
:> For some reason, I managed to survive so far.
: Congratulations. That's not a small matter, especially if they send you out
: to fight their battles.
Well, I saw some Cammies die around me, and it was not a pretty sight.
Especially if one of them was even feared by the *Brujah* in town. Ouch.
:> Unlife is a MacJob, like in Douglas Coupland's Generation X. There is
:> always someone above you who is older and has thus the better jobs and
:> status. And they won't die, so you won't be able to climb in rank. Well,
:> that's unlife for you.
: I think that you are too hung up on status, if you don't mind my saying so.
I happen to live in a Camarilla city, ruled by some uppity Tremere. I
have to make some living. I do not want to run from city to city.
Especially not when I can't take two steps out of my home town without
taking the risk to be killed on sight by some zealot Sabbat.
For now, I have to live by the rules.
: Do you really want to spend forever running about on other people's whims,
: and being stuck with dead-end jobs? I would like to think that we are beyond
: that now. They can find other toys.
: Do their archaic ranks really matter in any meaningful way? I sometimes feel
: as if I were a completely different type of creature from those old ones who
: live like that, because it means nothing to me at all.
Of course I do not want to end up in a society, where your chances of a
good unlife are determined by who your sire was. On the other hand, for
now I am under some kind of protection. That is something, that I sorely
need. At the moment, I do not really have a choice.
Odette, I do thank you for your kind concern.
~CN
--
Computational linguistics student at Tilburg U., the Netherlands
http://www.der-joachim.myweb.nl/
Servant of reality my hairy ass! (H.P. Derleth, Hollow One)
Byte_Sized
Simon Magid <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
> >>That would depend on how one defines the word 'alone'. I do not feel
> >>particularly lonely myself.
>
> >No, it must be kind of crowded in there with that other face and all.
>
> It makes for some spirited arguments, to be sure. Mind, I prefer that
> to moving through unlife whilst being blindly certain that what I am
> doing is the only right and true thing and never wondering whether I
> am headed in the right direction.
Your implication is misplaced, I'm afraid. I may be guilty of a bit of
preaching, but I can assure you, I am not one to take what I hear on
faith. And wondering is one of my favorite hobbies.
> >>Oh dear, not that tedious old saw again. I must confess, I find this
> >>'pawn to the Antediluvians' slander to be quite as lacking in
> >>inventiveness and bite as its opposite, 'group of savages'.
Just your luck that it happens to be true, and keeps being reiterated
because you don't listen to it the first few thousand times. Ever ask
yourself why this argument keeps being repeated? Especially if it is
not working?
> >So what are you saying, that you are independant thinkers?
>
> No, I am saying that I prefer to argue with an enemy who will present
> the cause of his enmity in reasonable terms rather than fall back on
> the same tired old propaganda one has heard a thousand times before.
The truth, in bald terms, is something you have heard before and
discounted, so no matter how many times you have heard it, your mind is
closed to it? You would listen if someone had ever found a novel way of
expressing it?
Somehow I get the idea that reasonable terms in your definition would
be some watered down version of a shadow of the truth. The undiluted
version is something you just simply do not want to hear, and so it
becomes 'propaganda'.
> > Do you
> >honestly believe that those who are so friggin old that mortal blood
> >doesn't do it for them is gonna have any cumpunction about drinking
> >your British ass dry?
>
> I would consider it unlikely. Mind, I have yet to encounter reliable
> information that confirms the existence of these creatures. On the
> other hand, claiming that such creatures exist is likely an excellent
> basis for frightening the gullible into blindly following one, or
> alternately luring them along some misguided path of heroism.
<sigh> Use a little logic, willya? You did not just spring, fully
formed, from the mind of Jupiter, did you? You had a progenitor, as did
your progenitor? Follow your blood back to the beginning and we are
*all* brothers in blood.
I've never seen a dinosaur, either, but I'm pretty sure they existed.
> > I just don't plan on making it easier for them,
> >and if there is a way to prevent it, I'm all for it.
>
> Well, should these creatures or reliable information of them turn up
> some night I will have been proven wrong and if I yet live after
> making the discovery I shall certainly be open to suggestions in that
> direction, donncha know.
Hey, want to wait to the last minute, and then scramble for survival,
you go right ahead. I plan on being prepared.
> >>I cannot really see that, merely claiming to be above something does
> >>not make one better than it. And granted that vampires do possess
> >>considerable power they are nonetheless on the whole no more
> >>intelligent than humans are, as well as handicapped with much the
same
> >>sins of hubris that mankind itself labours under.
>
> >But we are not humans. That shit is done with. The plastic morality
of
> >a mortal is a thing of the past.
>
> *sigh* My young friend, I was not speaking of morality, I was speaking
> of sins of hubris. Have you never seen overconfident vampires?
I'm currently conversing with one.
> Egomanical vampires? Greedy vampires? Vengeful vampires? I could go on
> but the list is endless. For all our alleged vampiric superiority we
> are still saddled with all too many human frailties.
So what? Big deal. Doesn't change the price of eggs in China.
Look at it this way, we start where humans end up. We are not limited
by the same things they are. We are capable, if not always willing, to
proceed further than humans are able. Its all in what you do with it.
> > It is frightening to me how many
> >people long for immortality who do not know what to do with
themselves
> >on a rainy day. The rules of the game have changed, and so have the
> >stakes.
>
> I do not think so, they are still pointed and wooden, donncha know.
Nice evasion, but my point still stands.
> >I have heard that rap about how dangerous the humans are in groups,
> >and they have technology and all. Well, you know what, vampires are
> >even more dangerous in groups than humans are, and technology is
> >useful to our side too.
>
> Of a certainty, but humans come in larger groups and you will notice
> that they are the ones who are developing the technology you are
> speaking of. I will begin to believe in true vampiric superiority the
> precise same moment I see vampires as a species better the humans
> intellectually.
LOL, come play chess with Pyle some night. This guy makes Stephen
Hawking look like Pauly Shore.
> > Quit whining, and stop with all of this
> >solitary creature of the night crap.
>
> Absolutely, as soon as you desist boasting and cease with your prattle
> of vague future dooms.
Done. Now quit it.
<snip>
> >>I must regretfully decline the invitation, I see absolutely no
reason
> >>to exchange the bonds of convention and tradition for the
enslavement
> >>of the Blood Bond that the Sabbat offers. I have been entrapped by
> >>them once already and suffered for it, I have no intention of
letting
> >>this happen again.
>
> >You cannot speak to me of slavery, pal, you are yoked seven ways to
> >Sunday.
>
> Yes, yes, again the Sabbat prates of its wonderful freedom.
> Considering how eager it is to enslave others to obtain its goals I
> admit that I do not feel very convinced.
Well, admittedly my experience is limited, as I am not really very old,
as vampires go, but I have yet to see a slave within the Sabbat
structure. So until I have proof, to use your line of logic, I will
discount the likelihood.
> > See, the difference is, I get to choose who I give my loyalty
> >to, as do those who follow me. Can you truly say the same?
>
> I am a sight more free today, now that the Sabbat who trapped me in a
> Blood Bond lies in dust and ashes. Oddly enow she did not allow me
> much choice or freedom while she yet lived, possibly she had not heard
> of the wonderful principles of freedom the Sabbat embodies. Pfahh!
Ah, I see now. You have suffered at the hands of a Sabbat individual,
and so, in best Camarilla tradition, paint us all with the same brush.
That makes much more sense, given the ridiculous nature of your
arguments thus far.
<snip>
> >>Damnation, take that back, I would never dream of going any such
place
> >>and in any case Buffy fan conventions are so much more entertaining
to
> >>attend.
>
> >No, I do take that back. What I meant to say was an exhibition of
> >horse diving.
>
> Ah well, it cannot be other than an intellectual improvement when
> compared to attending a gathering of Sabbat speechmakers.
Of course. We do tend to say things you do not want to hear, I cannot
imagine you actively *wanting* to sit through it for any length.
> >>This is the literal truth and many Camarilla view the Clanless in
this
> >>way. Not all, but unhappily enough do so to make it a chancy
> >>proposition for a Clanless to attempt to find himself a place in its
> >>ranks. Though I must admit that I find the notion of the Sabbat
being
> >>completely unbiased and egalitarian in matters of Blood to be
somewhat
> >>absurd, given the stranglehold of power I understand the Lasombra
and
> >>Tzimisce have on that Sect.
>
> >Modesty prevents me from claiming a meritocracy again, but that
really
> >is the truth of it. It is Darwinism, vampire-style. You either swim
> >with the sharks, or you feed the sharks. We must be strong to face
our
> >elders with force. The two clans you mentioned had a head start, as
> >well as being the only two successful in their effort to eliminate
> >their progenitor.
>
> So you are saying that the Lasombra and the Tzimisce are most fit to
> rule. How does this fit with your claims of egalitarianism?
No, I'm not, and I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. I am
saying the those two clans have eliminated their third generation
elders, and do not have the same onus upon them that the others do,
therefore they have more energy to expend in other arenas.
> <snip>
> >Angus Duggan
> >Has no taste for Brits, even when they are where they belong, which
is
> >Britain
>
> Excuse me but you have confused me, earlier you said that you had put
> the plastic morality of humanity behind you so how is it that you yet
> cling to matters pertaining to mortal nations?
I am currently at war, and the enemy is composed primarily of British
Camarilla. Once I have beaten them into the ground, and claimed
Massachusetts for the Sabbat, my attitudes will likely slide back to
the enlightened disinterest that I enjoyed before.
> Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Angus Duggan
--
http://www.egroups.com/group/WritersCube
http://www.egroups.com/group/Winemakers-R-Us
http://www.egroups.com/group/Vamperotica
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> The Sabbat is a group of savages. Brutality, bloodlust
>> and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care about.
> And you are a cur, a dog that speaks and a fool.
> Pissy yet?
> See? That's about all your words are worth, anger. There is no
>backing it.
That can be said for all too many people who bang the drums of their
various causes.
> I care about my art. I care about beauty. I have found friends and
>family denied to me by many a camarilla prince. I have a sister who
>does not belong to my sect who is closer than blood to me. I have a
>family who are not of the same clan and they mean more to me than any
>Prince ever did.
> I speak languages you've never heard. I know songs that haven't been
>song on this earth in centuries. I can ride horses and camel. I can
>swim like a fish, even as a kindred. I can fight or I can debate. I
>know the difference between a good wine and a bad one and can hazard a
>guess as to what in the creation process made it thus.
> I am also a Sabbat member. I am Ductus of a pack. I *left* the
>Camarilla and found a home.
> How is that for the other side?
Since you ask so nicely, m'lady.
When my mortal life lay in ruins around me and my family had disowned
me for a crime I was innocent of, my one-night-to-be-Sire believed me
and gave me a chance no-one else were willing to give me. At the time
I had no idea that she was a vampire and though I later started to
nourish suspicions that she was other than what she appeared I did not
let these affect my loyalty to her. For years I served her to the best
of my ability and at last she decided to bring me into the ranks of
the undead as a reward for my devotion.
Before she brought me across she warned me that she would also be
bringing me into a war that had been going on for a long time, a war
in which there would be little glory, much pain and very few cases
where one would be able to choose between Right and Wrong, at most it
would be choices between Bad and Worse. And I said in response that
that would be just like the war I had fought in my mortality and that
if unlife was the same then so be it.
I have been part of that war ever since and served my Sire to the best
of my ability for as long as I could. And yes, in that war I have seen
my own side guilty of stupidities and atrocities galore, yet I have
also seen what the enemy has done and his doings have inspired me with
little hope for any good in the future should I cease to resist him.
Whether mine own side is Right or Wrong I cannot say, as a matter of
fact I cannot even with certainty state whether it is Bad or Worse,
but I do know that I have pledged my loyalty to it. And no matter what
blandishments others here might make about Sabbat internal loyalty, it
would scarcely make any sense for me to break mine own ties of loyalty
in order to obtain Sabbat ones instead even did I believe in them,
hah?
And that is really all there is to it, I have pledged my word to my
Sire and my lineage and I do not intend to go back on it and I will
certainly not leave what friends and companions I have in the lurch.
Some may claim that the Camarilla is a moribund titan, a dying
monstrosity on the verge of falling, but e'en if this be true I will
not abandon it. One time during the War I was attempting to fly my
Stirling bomber home from a sortie after it had been badly damaged by
enemy flack. Two engines out of four had already died and the third
seemed likely to follow soon, but one of my crewmen had been wounded
and trapped in his compartment so bailing out would mean leaving him
to die. And rather than abandoning a comrade in arms to such a fate I
chose to remain at my post though I did give permission to the rest of
the crew to abandon the craft.
It is the same these nights, no matter how hopeless the situation may
seem and however much propaganda the enemy may blare at me I do not
intend to leave my post. If this means that I will go down in flames
at last then so be it, I have been living on borrowed time ever since
that night my Stirling to my astonishment failed to crash and burn.
> Do not talk to me of honor. I'm rather sure that several people here
>have more honor than you, childe. And we have suffered for it. Oh,
>did I mention that some of the most honorable people on the newsgroup
>are Tzimisce? And Sabbat?
This may very well be so but I deny that the Sabbat has a monopoly on
honour and I know to my cost that it certainly has its own share of
liars and hypocrites. There may be little of grace and worth in the
Camarilla but I intend to serve what it has of these with all my
ability while I yet have the strength to do so.
> We have Elders in the Sabbat. In fact, I think by technicality, I am
>one of them. I know there are a number of Elders of various blood
>lines in it. Including one who very well might be Caitiff.
Completely logical, the Sabbat was founded six centuries ago and I
sincerely doubt that all its Founders were mere yearlings. Then again
the Sabbat is usually vehement in extolling the evils of the Elders so
it may be that the Sabbat itself is less than happy of its own Elders,
hah?
>J'Zikal Aur
>Toreador by the Blood
>Anti-Tribu by choice
>Ductus of the Walking Shadows
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Still loyal to the Camarilla
At last free of the chains the Sabbat put on him
Spider-ic
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:19:54 GMT, Spider-ic <gypsy...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> The Sabbat is a group of savages. Brutality, bloodlust
> >> and how often you've been on a killing spree is what they care
about.
>
> > And you are a cur, a dog that speaks and a fool.
> > Pissy yet?
> > See? That's about all your words are worth, anger. There is no
> >backing it.
>
> That can be said for all too many people who bang the drums of their
> various causes.
Quite often.
<snip my own blathering>
> > How is that for the other side?
>
> Since you ask so nicely, m'lady.
>
<snip>
> And that is really all there is to it, I have pledged my word to my
> Sire and my lineage and I do not intend to go back on it and I will
> certainly not leave what friends and companions I have in the lurch.
> Some may claim that the Camarilla is a moribund titan, a dying
> monstrosity on the verge of falling, but e'en if this be true I will
> not abandon it.
And I respect *you* for that. I do not respect the sect. I respect
honor and duty where I find it. And I do not find it in any of the
Sects as a whole.
<snip>
> > Do not talk to me of honor. I'm rather sure that several people
here
> >have more honor than you, childe. And we have suffered for it. Oh,
> >did I mention that some of the most honorable people on the newsgroup
> >are Tzimisce? And Sabbat?
>
> This may very well be so but I deny that the Sabbat has a monopoly on
> honour and I know to my cost that it certainly has its own share of
> liars and hypocrites. There may be little of grace and worth in the
> Camarilla but I intend to serve what it has of these with all my
> ability while I yet have the strength to do so.
I do not argue with that. I found the brats insiuation that *none*
in the Sabbat had honor. My honor, for good or ill, is my existance.
I can do nothing but follow my honor, no matter how it leads or seems
to abandon me.
> > We have Elders in the Sabbat. In fact, I think by technicality, I
am
> >one of them. I know there are a number of Elders of various blood
> >lines in it. Including one who very well might be Caitiff.
>
> Completely logical, the Sabbat was founded six centuries ago and I
> sincerely doubt that all its Founders were mere yearlings. Then again
> the Sabbat is usually vehement in extolling the evils of the Elders so
> it may be that the Sabbat itself is less than happy of its own Elders,
> hah?
I'm less than happy with some of our elders. However, some have good
points, they hold truer to the intent and spirit and don't fall as much
into the traps that we fight against.
Frankly, no side is best. The Sabbat is the best for me, for my
position in unlife, for my honor and duty.
> >J'Zikal Aur
> >Toreador by the Blood
> >Anti-Tribu by choice
> >Ductus of the Walking Shadows
>
> Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
> Still loyal to the Camarilla
> At last free of the chains the Sabbat put on him
I congratulate you on that. I disliked hearing that so good an
opponent was held to something not of their choosing.
J'Zikal Aur
A curious bug...
Simon Magid
wrote:
><snip my own blathering>
<and snip remains of mine, one good turn deserves another, hah?>
>> Some may claim that the Camarilla is a moribund titan, a dying
>> monstrosity on the verge of falling, but e'en if this be true I will
>> not abandon it.
> And I respect *you* for that. I do not respect the sect. I respect
>honor and duty where I find it. And I do not find it in any of the
>Sects as a whole.
All too true and for that precise reason I cling to mine own
principles as well as I can. Whatever sense of honour and duty I may
possess is certainly flawed but still that is no reason not to do the
best I can with what I have, hah?
>> This may very well be so but I deny that the Sabbat has a monopoly on
>> honour and I know to my cost that it certainly has its own share of
>> liars and hypocrites. There may be little of grace and worth in the
>> Camarilla but I intend to serve what it has of these with all my
>> ability while I yet have the strength to do so.
> I do not argue with that. I found the brats insiuation that *none*
>in the Sabbat had honor.
He was uncommonly offensive, I found the claim that he was one of our
leaders to be particularly aggravating. Did a Prince act so rudely in
a Camarilla fief in which I was a resident I would soon find
opportunities to discreetly undermine him and erode his authority,
while I dislike having to serve under unscrupulous blaggards I e'en
more dislike the idea of having an idiot in charge.
> My honor, for good or ill, is my existance.
>I can do nothing but follow my honor, no matter how it leads or seems
>to abandon me.
*sigh* And I cannot find fault with that, at least not without
descending into blatant hypocrisy. And I may be many things but I try
to avoid being too blatant, donncha know.
>> Completely logical, the Sabbat was founded six centuries ago and I
>> sincerely doubt that all its Founders were mere yearlings. Then again
>> the Sabbat is usually vehement in extolling the evils of the Elders so
>> it may be that the Sabbat itself is less than happy of its own Elders,
>> hah?
> I'm less than happy with some of our elders. However, some have good
>points, they hold truer to the intent and spirit and don't fall as much
>into the traps that we fight against.
> Frankly, no side is best. The Sabbat is the best for me, for my
>position in unlife, for my honor and duty.
In that case I hope fortune smile on you and should we e'er meet in
battle may the better Cainite win.
>> Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
>> Still loyal to the Camarilla
>> At last free of the chains the Sabbat put on him
>I congratulate you on that. I disliked hearing that so good an
>opponent was held to something not of their choosing.
I thank you, in the Sabbat's defense I should say that part of the
reason it took so long was that I needed a long time to find the
motivation to shake the remains of them off.
>J'Zikal Aur
>A curious bug...
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Steve Griffin
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:47:42 +0000, Steve Griffin
> <st...@polgooth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Duggan, how goes your existence? I can barely follow this talk of
> >Sabbat and Camarilla, but am keen for news of you. Do you still hold
> >sway over your tribe?
>
> So far so good, I guess. Since I greased the guy I got the job from,
> and nobody has greased me yet, I still have it. And two or three
> others besides, really. I am learning a great deal about vampire
> history, and learning to tend the spiritual needs of my pack, and
> learning how to fight and kill something that is already undead. Add
> to that the need to be ringmaster to a one ring circus of cuthroats
> and maniacs, I guess my nights are pretty full.
The sheer vitality of your unlife inspires me. The power of your
words and the images you conjure make me dizzy. I sit like a milksop
and wait the summons of my prince, reading books, conversing with
subtle dames and treading a knife-edge between the indulgence of
patrons and their impatience.
> No, seriously, my gang is great, we scored big time New Year's Eve.
> Capped ourselves a Prince. Small time guy, toady to the Prince of
> Boston, but what the hell, we just eroded a big chunk of King's
> support structure, so take that you Camarilla pricks. I'm very proud
> of them, they really came together.
>
> Not everything is peaches and diesel, though. One of my crew was
> murdered, head cut off right in his own haven, and I have about half
> of the answers I need to figure out what the hell happened there. This
> happened just before the New Year's gig, so I don't think that's
> related. I'm damned if I know how they got in there.
>
> So unlife goes on. How's by you?
Not well, not ill, but oh so very tedious. My story is an old one. I
am still too much the fledgling to fly the nest; on my own, I suspect
I would be dead before I reached the outskirts of the city. Until my
wings grow strong I must watch the world through others eyes. I am
much indebted for your insights.
Of good news, I find I am become more familiar with the traits of our
sires. There is some comfort in this, not least because this faculty
causes much distress to some others in this place. Darkness made
manifest is a fearsome thing, no? Even the lack of an image in the
glass has become a consolation. It is one of few holds I have in this
place. I suspect that this is one reason Prince Ranulf suffers me to
reside here.
> BTW, if you are looking for a vampire to show you about technology, I
> can recommend a good Independant operator, in the American North East.
I am trapped like a concubine in a seraglio. This court is in the far
west of England. I doubt your man travels as much as I doubt I the
warmth of his welcome.
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> >>Oh dear, not that tedious old saw again. I must confess, I find this
>> >>'pawn to the Antediluvians' slander to be quite as lacking in
>> >>inventiveness and bite as its opposite, 'group of savages'.
>Just your luck that it happens to be true, and keeps being reiterated
>because you don't listen to it the first few thousand times. Ever ask
>yourself why this argument keeps being repeated? Especially if it is
>not working?
You have my sincere sympathies, it must be bally annoying to be the
only ones in the world who are repeating the truth again and again in
the middle of an ocean of propagandists who are repeating the same
lies again and again. You will pardon me for still not believing you
but this is due to my possibly naïve conviction that if someone out
there is clever enough to have worked out what the truth is he will
also be clever enough to find a more imaginative way of sharing it.
>> No, I am saying that I prefer to argue with an enemy who will present
>> the cause of his enmity in reasonable terms rather than fall back on
>> the same tired old propaganda one has heard a thousand times before.
>The truth, in bald terms, is something you have heard before and
>discounted, so no matter how many times you have heard it, your mind is
>closed to it?
Absolutely, as stated above there is an enormous chorus of
propagandists out there and I confess that I lack the ability to
accept that they are all saying the truth at the same time.
Particularly since most of these alleged truths conflict greatly with
one another, it is indeed a common denominator for most of them that
all the others are false. In other words, even if one of these people
actually were telling the truth he would be drowned out by the rest of
the rather cacophonic choir. It might e'en be you but since I have no
way of telling you apart from the rest of them I feel no particular
urge to choose you over all the others.
> You would listen if someone had ever found a novel way of
>expressing it?
Certainly, 'twould at the very least require some effort to digest and
analyse and e'en if I disagreed 'twould at least lend me a new
perspective on mine own existence and might e'en impel me to change
it.
>Somehow I get the idea that reasonable terms in your definition would
>be some watered down version of a shadow of the truth. The undiluted
>version is something you just simply do not want to hear, and so it
>becomes 'propaganda'.
If you like, I confess that I do not really care what you think of me,
mine own opinion of me suffices in most instances.
>> I would consider it unlikely. Mind, I have yet to encounter reliable
>> information that confirms the existence of these creatures. On the
>> other hand, claiming that such creatures exist is likely an excellent
>> basis for frightening the gullible into blindly following one, or
>> alternately luring them along some misguided path of heroism.
><sigh> Use a little logic, willya? You did not just spring, fully
>formed, from the mind of Jupiter, did you? You had a progenitor, as did
>your progenitor? Follow your blood back to the beginning and we are
>*all* brothers in blood.
That may indeed be true but just because we at some point had common
ancestors does not mean that these ancestors are either still active
or pursuing any such agenda as you claim they are.
>I've never seen a dinosaur, either, but I'm pretty sure they existed.
Indeed, and I understand there has e'en been some bally animated
picture in which they returned to the Earth in order to reclaim it
from mankind. Mind, while it may indeed be possible to return them to
existence through the use of advanced genetics I admit that I am far
more concerned that Mankind some day will successfully invent a virus
which will wipe Homo Sapiens out. I recently read in 'Der Spiegel'
that a group of Australian scientists had attempted to created a
bacteria intended to reduce the fertility of mice to one fourth of
normal, thus controlling their spread, but instead found that they had
crafted a disease that was one hundred percent lethal for the mice.
They added that they saw no reason that this could not in principle be
done to humans as well, either accidentally or on purpose.
>> Well, should these creatures or reliable information of them turn up
>> some night I will have been proven wrong and if I yet live after
>> making the discovery I shall certainly be open to suggestions in that
>> direction, donncha know.
>Hey, want to wait to the last minute, and then scramble for survival,
>you go right ahead. I plan on being prepared.
Be my guest, I merely see no reason to commit treachery because of
vague mutterings of doom from enemies of mine. I am already fully
occupied with problems that I can either see and feel or at least with
some probability deduce the existence of, donncha know.
>> *sigh* My young friend, I was not speaking of morality, I was speaking
>> of sins of hubris. Have you never seen overconfident vampires?
>I'm currently conversing with one.
It takes one to know one, as they say.
>Look at it this way, we start where humans end up. We are not limited
>by the same things they are. We are capable, if not always willing, to
>proceed further than humans are able. Its all in what you do with it.
In that we agree and you state the absolute truth when you say that we
have different limitations. For that precise reason it saddens me to
see so many of our kind nonetheless fall prey to old habits they have
brought along from their mortal existence, they might at least put
some effort into testing their new limitations rather than merely
fumble around where their old limitations used to be.
>> Of a certainty, but humans come in larger groups and you will notice
>> that they are the ones who are developing the technology you are
>> speaking of. I will begin to believe in true vampiric superiority the
>> precise same moment I see vampires as a species better the humans
>> intellectually.
>LOL, come play chess with Pyle some night. This guy makes Stephen
>Hawking look like Pauly Shore.
Excellent news, I am looking forward to reading of a better Unified
Field theory soon, I understand that the old one still does not cover
all the facts adequately. While your friend is at it perhaps he might
find out why the Earth's community of physicists cannot find close to
95% of the matter they believe the Universe should contain,
undoubtedly some bally blighter mislaid it somewhere and forgot where
he put it.
>> Absolutely, as soon as you desist boasting and cease with your prattle
>> of vague future dooms.
>Done. Now quit it.
Your servant,
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Byte_Sized
st...@polgooth.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The sheer vitality of your unlife inspires me. The power of your
> words and the images you conjure make me dizzy. I sit like a milksop
> and wait the summons of my prince, reading books, conversing with
> subtle dames and treading a knife-edge between the indulgence of
> patrons and their impatience.
Well, it is an interesting existence, I have to admit, far more so than
my mundane mortal life. Too much work and not enough play, none of it
really crucial to anyone. I will freely admit that I would not trade
places with my breathing self for all the tea in China.
Vampires are monsters, yes, things of legend, with powers and abilities
far beyond those of mortal men. The first time you kill one with your
bare hands and pointy teeth, you really know what being a predator is.
<snip>
> > So unlife goes on. How's by you?
>
> Not well, not ill, but oh so very tedious. My story is an old one. I
> am still too much the fledgling to fly the nest; on my own, I suspect
> I would be dead before I reached the outskirts of the city. Until my
> wings grow strong I must watch the world through others eyes. I am
> much indebted for your insights.
Think nothing of it, I give them away free. Too free, some pommy
British Cammie poofs might think, but hey, what can I do?
But let me ask you something? If you never really cross the line, how
the hell do you know where it is?
> Of good news, I find I am become more familiar with the traits of our
> sires. There is some comfort in this, not least because this faculty
> causes much distress to some others in this place. Darkness made
> manifest is a fearsome thing, no? Even the lack of an image in the
> glass has become a consolation. It is one of few holds I have in this
> place. I suspect that this is one reason Prince Ranulf suffers me to
> reside here.
Absolutely. Releasing the shadows is a magnificant testament to our
surpassing of human limitations, and a blessing. It's pretty cool at
parties, too. ;-)
> > BTW, if you are looking for a vampire to show you about
technology, I
> > can recommend a good Independant operator, in the American North
East.
>
> I am trapped like a concubine in a seraglio. This court is in the far
> west of England. I doubt your man travels as much as I doubt I the
> warmth of his welcome.
Well, you have access to a computer, or you would not be here. She is
entirely digital, and can interact with you via an avatar within your
computer. I know, it sounds complicated and arcane, but she can explain
it far better than I. If you are interested, I'll send you some contact
info offline, and you can try it out. She is a pretty good, if stern,
teacher. She made sense of corporate financial structures for me in one
evening's tutoring. And all she charged was money.
> M.
> Qvod me nvtrit me destrvit
Angus Duggan
--
http://www.egroups.com/group/WritersCube
http://www.egroups.com/group/Winemakers-R-Us
http://www.egroups.com/group/Vamperotica
OSF
> shit what your clan is. Stop using it like a banner of the underdog
> and just talk man!
I don't feel the under dog, I merely realise that in some eyes ones clan
association biases what they think of anothers comments. But, I suppose you
are correct, if one leaves that out another wouldn't have the excuse to be
biased.
> There was a elder I knew once. He tortured people, women and
> children mostly.<snip>He
> embraced a pregnant woman once just to see what would happen to her
> child.
> I can keep going. He was not a Tzimisce nor a lasombra nor Sabbat.
There was no such
> thing. And when the Camarilla formed, he joined. He is still a part
> of it today.
> *all* sides have their flawed people.
This is what I was trying to say. That is why prefer not to join either
rank.
Obsidian Silverfang
Darroch Worby
> >>All too true and do not be fooled by appearances, one of the most
> >>brutal and ruthless Cainites I have ever met wore elegant dresses,
> >>danced like an angel and conversed knowledgeably on the sciences and
> >>the philosophies.
>
> >Cristian never wears dresses ;) At least, not that I've seen...
I can make^H^H^H^H sell you some photos if you like. <eg>
> I only rarely do so while in a male form, brother. The last time I did
> so was while impersonating Queen Ingrid of Denmark, oh, some forty
> years ago; I was attempting to win a bet at the time. Unfortunately,
> the real queen showed just a few minutes before I had expected her to,
> so I had to leave rather abruptly.
>
> *regretful sigh*
>
> If _only_ she had waited another five minutes or so, I had almost
> managed to sell the Royal Palace by the time she appeared...
As a man. In a dress.
You're not resposible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...? <eg>
> >Alexandros
>
> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce real estate broker
Joeseph Bishop, Brujah, occasional real estate breaker
Simon Magid
<lordgrandhi...@evil.co.uk> wrote:
>> I only rarely do so while in a male form, brother. The last time I did
>> so was while impersonating Queen Ingrid of Denmark, oh, some forty
>> years ago; I was attempting to win a bet at the time. Unfortunately,
>> the real queen showed just a few minutes before I had expected her to,
>> so I had to leave rather abruptly.
>> *regretful sigh*
>> If _only_ she had waited another five minutes or so, I had almost
>> managed to sell the Royal Palace by the time she appeared...
>As a man. In a dress.
As mentioned, I was attempting to win a bet. I succeeded, too; someone
had claimed that I was unable to create a decent disguise without
Vicissitude. I proved him wrong in that; it was not until the real
Queen Ingrid appeared that they saw through my disguise. And even
then, my affronted claim that she was an impostor bought me the time
to retreat.
>You're not resposible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...? <eg>
Sadly, I am not. Usually I deal only in Royal Palaces, and the
occasional 14-mile bridge connecting major Danish islands. *brilliant
smile*
>> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce real estate broker
Ah, me. Possibly I should have written *virtual* estate broker
instead? *another brilliant smile*
>Joeseph Bishop, Brujah, occasional real estate breaker
An excellent profession, dear friend.
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce disguise artist
joa...@der-joachim.myweb.nospam.nl
: Vampires are monsters, yes, things of legend, with powers and abilities
: far beyond those of mortal men. The first time you kill one with your
: bare hands and pointy teeth, you really know what being a predator is.
I had a similar experience during my first real hunt. It is surely a
mystic curse when you feel more alive than when you were alive. Uhm,
snip that last sentence.
: Absolutely. Releasing the shadows is a magnificant testament to our
: surpassing of human limitations, and a blessing. It's pretty cool at
: parties, too. ;-)
Damn. I heard of clan-specific abilities, but this is eerie. Is this a
Sabbat trait? Forgive my ignorance. My sire was a bit, uhm..
uninformative about other clans and groups.
Nik Hewitt
> As mentioned, I was attempting to win a bet. I succeeded, too; someone
> had claimed that I was unable to create a decent disguise without
> Vicissitude. I proved him wrong in that; it was not until the real
> Queen Ingrid appeared that they saw through my disguise. And even
> then, my affronted claim that she was an impostor bought me the time
> to retreat.
Commendable, entirely and unequivocally totally commendable.
> >You're not responsible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...?
That was us, but as to whom exactly it escapes me.
> Sadly, I am not. Usually I deal only in Royal Palaces, and the
> occasional 14-mile bridge connecting major Danish islands. *brilliant
> smile*
Dearest Cristian is clearly a practitioner of reality manipulation, a
commendable occupation. People are most awake when under moments of high
emotion, other wise they are asleep. Providing them with the means to
awaken, as Christian so clearly does, is a noble art indeed. Breaking the
Masquerade is foolish and so we do the best we can with the tools we have
;-)
> >> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce real estate broker
May I enquire, my good lady/man in a dress (I suppose it's irrelevant when
one has Vicissitude), if you see a difference here, in your noble art,
between the "accursed" (not my word) Malkavian tradition of "pranking" and
your chosen career. Do they not surely achieve the same thing as discussed
above and have therefore earn't your merit badge? :-) There's an
interesting analogy amongst the my folks that accuses the Irish of inventing
the bag pipes. They then gave them to the Scottish who have taken them
seriously ever since. The story goes that the Irish invented the bagpipes
... and the brats of Malkav invented Caine, then gave them to the other
clans who have taken him seriously ever since. I forget why I mention this
now, I was coming to a point that was entirely relevant, my apologies, but,
essentially, I think we've all sold a few "royal palaces" to the warmies
from time to time ;-)
> Ah, me. Possibly I should have written *virtual* estate broker instead?
*another brilliant smile*
A smile is always efficacious. Showing them your teeth lures them into a
false sense of security.
> >Joeseph Bishop, Brujah, occasional real estate breaker
> An excellent profession, dear friend.
Agreed. And always worth keeping ones "dry" skill up to scratch, you never
know when the wind may change. Oh, and always taking time out to study a
man in a hat. Is that the time, gracious me...
> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce disguise artist
Rev. Connie Achair HRRBT
Steve Griffin
> > > BTW, if you are looking for a vampire to show you about
> technology, I
> > > can recommend a good Independant operator, in the American North
> East.
> >
> > I am trapped like a concubine in a seraglio. This court is in the far
> > west of England. I doubt your man travels as much as I doubt I the
> > warmth of his welcome.
>
> Well, you have access to a computer, or you would not be here. She is
> entirely digital, and can interact with you via an avatar within your
> computer. I know, it sounds complicated and arcane, but she can explain
> it far better than I. If you are interested, I'll send you some contact
> info offline, and you can try it out. She is a pretty good, if stern,
> teacher. She made sense of corporate financial structures for me in one
> evening's tutoring. And all she charged was money.
If you trust her discretion, please make the introduction. Perchance
she may explain how I can pay her at such great distance? Perchance
she may also explain where I may find some coin? I intend to make a
start.
Your servant once again,
Darroch Worby
> >> I only rarely do so while in a male form, brother. The last time I
> >> did so was while impersonating Queen Ingrid of Denmark, oh, some
> >> forty years ago; I was attempting to win a bet at the time.
> >> Unfortunately, the real queen showed just a few minutes before I
> >> had expected her to, so I had to leave rather abruptly.
> >> *regretful sigh*
> >> If _only_ she had waited another five minutes or so, I had almost
> >> managed to sell the Royal Palace by the time she appeared...
> >As a man. In a dress.
> As mentioned, I was attempting to win a bet. I succeeded, too; someone
> had claimed that I was unable to create a decent disguise without
> Vicissitude. I proved him wrong in that;
Flanders Mare mk II, no doubt. <eg>
> it was not until the real
> Queen Ingrid appeared that they saw through my disguise. And even
> then, my affronted claim that she was an impostor bought me the time
> to retreat.
How terrible. That your disguise was broken, naturally. <eg>
> >You're not resposible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...?
> ><eg>
> Sadly, I am not. Usually I deal only in Royal Palaces, and the
> occasional 14-mile bridge connecting major Danish islands. *brilliant
> smile*
Sorry, "major" Danish islands? ;P
> >> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce real estate broker
> Ah, me. Possibly I should have written *virtual* estate broker
> instead? *another brilliant smile*
How about "artificial"? <eg>
> >Joeseph Bishop, Brujah, occasional real estate breaker
> An excellent profession, dear friend.
Only when needs must. <eg>
> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce disguise artist
Joeseph Bishop, Brujah piss-artist ;)
Simon Magid
<nik.h...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> As mentioned, I was attempting to win a bet. I succeeded, too; someone
>> had claimed that I was unable to create a decent disguise without
>> Vicissitude. I proved him wrong in that; it was not until the real
>> Queen Ingrid appeared that they saw through my disguise. And even
>> then, my affronted claim that she was an impostor bought me the time
>> to retreat.
>Commendable, entirely and unequivocally totally commendable.
Thank you, dear friend.
>> >You're not responsible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...?
>That was us, but as to whom exactly it escapes me.
I specialise in Danish property, and normally avoid London. For some
reason, the London Camarilla does not like me. *brilliant smile*
>> Sadly, I am not. Usually I deal only in Royal Palaces, and the
>> occasional 14-mile bridge connecting major Danish islands. *brilliant
>> smile*
>Dearest Cristian is clearly a practitioner of reality manipulation, a
>commendable occupation. People are most awake when under moments of high
>emotion, other wise they are asleep. Providing them with the means to
>awaken, as Christian so clearly does, is a noble art indeed. Breaking the
>Masquerade is foolish and so we do the best we can with the tools we have
>;-)
Too, breaking the Masquerade is so _easy_. There is no challenge to
it. Now, gulling an entire crowd, _that_ is entertainment. *another
brilliant smile*
>May I enquire, my good lady/man in a dress (I suppose it's irrelevant when
>one has Vicissitude), if you see a difference here, in your noble art,
>between the "accursed" (not my word) Malkavian tradition of "pranking" and
>your chosen career. Do they not surely achieve the same thing as discussed
>above and have therefore earn't your merit badge? :-)
They most certainly do. I admit, normally I attempt to disrupt a
person's existence through destroying his or her unlife, but again, it
is the same phenomenon that you discussed. Admittedly, I usually do it
for reasons of my own satisfaction and not specifically to disrupt
reality, as you put it, but that nonetheless happens.
> There's an
>interesting analogy amongst the my folks that accuses the Irish of inventing
>the bag pipes. They then gave them to the Scottish who have taken them
>seriously ever since.
HaHAAAA! I rather like that. *brilliant smile*
The story goes that the Irish invented the bagpipes
>... and the brats of Malkav invented Caine, then gave them to the other
>clans who have taken him seriously ever since. I forget why I mention this
>now, I was coming to a point that was entirely relevant, my apologies, but,
>essentially, I think we've all sold a few "royal palaces" to the warmies
>from time to time ;-)
Oh, yes. The true challenge, of course, lies in selling them to
Cainites as well. They are not necessarily more _intelligent_, but
they do at times have powers that make them harder to fool.
>> Ah, me. Possibly I should have written *virtual* estate broker instead?
>*another brilliant smile*
>A smile is always efficacious. Showing them your teeth lures them into a
>false sense of security.
Or alternately, an actual sense of insecurity. *brilliant smile*
>Rev. Connie Achair HRRBT
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce surreality manipulator
Odette
Shadowdragon <shadowdr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Personally most of the Camarilla elders exist merely to be toyed with
> and irritated by everyone who doesn't toe the line the way "they"
> consider proper.
And the non-elders also ...
> Taen (I'm not naming my clan :P )
Pleased to meet you.
Odette
Caitiff
Odette
Simon Magid <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:00:39 GMT, Odette <copper...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >But really, why should I lie?
>
> A host of reasons, m'dear, for example you might be a Ventrue wishing
> to lure specimens like the one above into making fools of themselves
> <g>.
That would be fun. I almost wish that I were. I imagine more highly
ranked vampires don't have to spend their nights clambering over
rooftops fighting some paranoid's half-imagined war (excuse my
cynicism -- if we'd actually spotted an enemy, I would at least see the
point.)
> >I never saw these laudatory individuals for myself, but maybe they
have
> >better things to do than waste hot air on caitiffs.
>
> 'Tis devoutly to be hoped, I myself am in no shortage of hot air as
> you may have noticed <g>.
Not at all. Mr Shane, you write beautifully and at great length, and
while I cannot speak for others, I have found your observations
interesting and informative. I had never thought to say this to another
vampire but I think you could work on your self-confidence ;)
> > I imagine that as in mortal society, vampire society has its
> >untouchables -- people who are so highly ranked, so rich, or so
> >powerful that the 'regular' laws don't apply.
>
> Indeed, one law for the rich, one for the poor, and a completely
> separate one for the ultra-rich, donncha know. And in the case of
> these last it is not as much a law as a series of rough guidelines, as
> my Great Grandsires is wont to say.
You are on speaking terms with your great grandsire?
> Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Odette
Caitiff
--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
---> G K Chesterton < ---
Odette
Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <941nmh$n5d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette <copperbird31@my-
> deja.com> writes
> >I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
> >creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child.
>
> Well the wise (hah!), old influential monster probably knows how to do
> it causing the maximum pain and minimum permanent injury. Or is that
not
> what you meant? :-)
It wasn't what I meant, but I know from experience that you have a
point.
>
> Precisely the problem, it is a medieval society, where power and
> privilege rule. The Princes dictate, the masses obey. OF course there
> are doubtless fair princes, but in a society where might (in whatever
> form) makes right, what price justice?
I am not convinced that 'society' works very well for vampires. You ask
what price justice, but the only justice any of us can have is what we
carry out ourselves. It may be less true for others, but that has been
what I have seen.
I have been very bad over this last year. I have done a lot of things
just because I was curious, and just because I could. So who will come
to me and ask for justice on behalf of people I have killed, or twisted
around my finger, or whose hearts I have broken?
Perhaps it is only fair that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for
the gander, so if other vampires treat me the way I have treated
others, I am in the same situation as they.
Surely power and privilege always rule, because otherwise the powerful
and privileged would not support the society at all?
>
> > But I say that their laws
> >don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
> >
> Sounds like an Anarch to me. ;-)
I was largely taught what I know about vampires by anarchists and
freethinkers. After I first escaped from the sorceror, I ran into a
vampire infested streetgang who gave me one of those 'join or die'
ultimatums -- it ran something like "Are you an Anarch or will I have
to kill you?". It was lucky for me, because although I think I could
have coped on my own, there are some aspects that I would never have
worked out.
> >I'm not offended. Merely reflective that I have met humans with fewer
> >prejudices than this -- and when I was alive I hope that I was one of
> >them.
> >
> *Shrug*
> Why should being dead make one less prejudiced. Admittedly it can make
> one rapidly re-evaluate some preconceptions.
>
I don't know. I just thought it might.
> Istvan Batory
> Tzimisce
Odette
Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
> >
> The Caitiff within the Sabbat are formed into a Clan named after it's
> founder, Joseph Pander. Actually I guess they are more of a union
than a
> Clan in the accepted sense but they are accorded the same status in
the
> Sabbat more or less.
I don't entirely follow this issue of status, but I understand. Thank
you.
But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
> >are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do
with
> >the rest of my (un)life yet.
> >
> I hope you get the chance to decide before some scourge nails you or
> some warlord conscripts you as cannon fodder. But hell if you just
want
> to hide, fine.
I do appreciate the thought.
I am rueful now, because I am vaguely conscripted into some local
conflict. To be fair, the master was no happier about it and he did
have the grace to apologise to me for making the request -- I have
noticed that he has treated me with more respect since the hunt,
perhaps that's some kind of vampiric honour at work.
My original intention here was to show my face and then slip away into
the night and go home, but I think there is something fishy going on
and the others are so naive that it frightens me.
> Travis
> Clan Lasombra
> Seekers of Perfection
>
What does 'seekers of perfection' mean?
Odette
sira...@artlover.com wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:25:58 +0100, Simon Magid
> <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:39:50 GMT, Odette <copper...@my-deja.com>
> >wrote:
> >
>
>
> Panders are not really a clan, per se, in the strictest sense of the
> word (they have no progenitor from the Third Generation) They are
> essentially a clan due to the egalitarian nature of unlife in the
> Sabbat.
>
Thank you for the explanation, it's much appreciated. When you say
the '50s, I assume you are talking about the 1950s? Why did it take so
long for your organisation to recognise clanless vampires if you are so
egalitarian? Or is clanlessness quite rare amongst vampires?
> Say whatever you please about the Sabbat, it
> has far less bigotry built into the system than our opposite number.
> And we reward success.
With what?
>
> Just have a look about and see what clan usually possesses the same
> kind of abilitie(s) you find that you have, and claim that clan, as a
> newblie, and presume to be less skilled than your truly are. But under
> no circumstance claim to be a Malkavian, simply because it seems
> 'fakeable'. Trust me, it is not.
That sounds like a challenge :)
>
> Maybe. and maybe not. Maybe you have months, kiddo, and maybe only
> nights. Truth is, neither side knows.
>
> I cannot choose for you, just tell you to look past mortal morality,
> to work with others, rather than alone, to treat them all like family
> and trust them like strangers.
>
> I got someone watching my back. do you?
The only person I trust, these nights ;/
Angus, can I ask you a question? I have been sent to a city where I've
been told that there is a Sabbat threat, but I don't entirely believe
it.
I'm currently suspecting that the local boss vampire is using that
excuse to force all his vassals to send vampiric recruits (someone used
the term cannon-fodder but I have no intention of doing a charge of the
light brigade, myself) to put down some local political opponent. If
it isn't a threat to your security, what signs could one look for that
might point to genuine Sabbat attacks, or operations?
Many thanks,
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <diGWwEAx...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <941nmh$n5d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette <copperbird31@my-
>> deja.com> writes
>
>> >I don't see how being worked over by a wise, old, and influential
>> >creature is any better than being worked over by an idiotic child.
>>
>> Well the wise (hah!), old influential monster probably knows how to do
>> it causing the maximum pain and minimum permanent injury. Or is that
>not
>> what you meant? :-)
>
>It wasn't what I meant, but I know from experience that you have a
>point.
>
>>
>> Precisely the problem, it is a medieval society, where power and
>> privilege rule. The Princes dictate, the masses obey. OF course there
>> are doubtless fair princes, but in a society where might (in whatever
>> form) makes right, what price justice?
>
>I am not convinced that 'society' works very well for vampires. You ask
>what price justice, but the only justice any of us can have is what we
>carry out ourselves. It may be less true for others, but that has been
>what I have seen.
>
You might be right.
>I have been very bad over this last year. I have done a lot of things
>just because I was curious, and just because I could. So who will come
>to me and ask for justice on behalf of people I have killed, or twisted
>around my finger, or whose hearts I have broken?
>
Nobody, but if they were kindred they will fight for themselves, if
human, well they will get over it. In a few decades they will be dust,
so why worry.
>Perhaps it is only fair that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for
>the gander, so if other vampires treat me the way I have treated
>others, I am in the same situation as they.
>
>Surely power and privilege always rule, because otherwise the powerful
>and privileged would not support the society at all?
>
True, but the more people there are who share the power the less scope
for serious abuse exists.
>>
>> > But I say that their laws
>> >don't apply to me either, and I will have none of it.
>> >
>> Sounds like an Anarch to me. ;-)
>
>I was largely taught what I know about vampires by anarchists and
>freethinkers. After I first escaped from the sorceror, I ran into a
>vampire infested streetgang who gave me one of those 'join or die'
>ultimatums -- it ran something like "Are you an Anarch or will I have
>to kill you?". It was lucky for me, because although I think I could
>have coped on my own, there are some aspects that I would never have
>worked out.
>
Yes it was lucky for you, a lot of gangs would have just killed you
straight out.
But tell me more of this sorcerer.
>
>> >I'm not offended. Merely reflective that I have met humans with fewer
>> >prejudices than this -- and when I was alive I hope that I was one of
>> >them.
>> >
>> *Shrug*
>> Why should being dead make one less prejudiced. Admittedly it can make
>> one rapidly re-evaluate some preconceptions.
>>
>
>
>I don't know. I just thought it might.
>
It takes years, and often you just replace one set of prejudices with
another. I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for nearly
1500 years!
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Istvan Batory
Tzimisce
"Ask not for mercy, for I have none to give."
Kevin Pople
deja.com> writes
>In article <VSBUMJAu...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I don't entirely understand. What is a Pander?
>> >
>> The Caitiff within the Sabbat are formed into a Clan named after it's
>> founder, Joseph Pander. Actually I guess they are more of a union
>than a
>> Clan in the accepted sense but they are accorded the same status in
>the
>> Sabbat more or less.
>
>I don't entirely follow this issue of status, but I understand. Thank
>you.
>
of who you are, and having to treat you with a certain amount of respect
because you have a group organised enough to make an issue of it.
>
>But that doesn't make me like one of you (whoever you
>> >are), and I don't think I am ready to decide now what I want to do
>with
>> >the rest of my (un)life yet.
>> >
>> I hope you get the chance to decide before some scourge nails you or
>> some warlord conscripts you as cannon fodder. But hell if you just
>want
>> to hide, fine.
>
>I do appreciate the thought.
>
You are welcome.
>I am rueful now, because I am vaguely conscripted into some local
>conflict. To be fair, the master was no happier about it and he did
>have the grace to apologise to me for making the request -- I have
>noticed that he has treated me with more respect since the hunt,
>perhaps that's some kind of vampiric honour at work.
>
Hm.
>My original intention here was to show my face and then slip away into
>the night and go home, but I think there is something fishy going on
>and the others are so naive that it frightens me.
>
So naive Cainites? What a bizarre thought!
>
>> Travis
>> Clan Lasombra
>> Seekers of Perfection
>>
>
>What does 'seekers of perfection' mean?
>
It is the name of my Pack.
>
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Travis
Lasombra
Seekers of Perfection
Simon Magid
wrote:
>Thank you for the explanation, it's much appreciated. When you say
>the '50s, I assume you are talking about the 1950s? Why did it take so
>long for your organisation to recognise clanless vampires if you are so
>egalitarian? Or is clanlessness quite rare amongst vampires?
It used to be but the phenomenon is becoming more common. In days of
yore the most usual way to become Clanless would be to somehow become
expelled from one's Clan. And as this sentence was often accompanied
by a Blood Hunt quite a few of the Clanless perished soon after
becoming so. However, even back then it at times happened that some
careless Sire abandoned a newly created Childe and that said Childe
would grow up without belonging to a Clan.
In our modern days a new phenomenon is happening with increasing
frequency, however. From time to time a newly Embraced Childe will
fail to manifest Clan characteristics and will thus be a natural
Clanless, so to speak. What happens in such instances vary greatly,
some Sires keep the Childe in spite of the loss of status they suffer
whereas others seek to either distance themselves from or even kill
the newly created fledgling.
I would present to you two different extremes, one is the case of an
almost-Clanmate of mine by name of Esterhazy. He never manifested any
Ventrue traits yet he did not only remain close to his Sire but has
also become a quite effective operative widely respected by the
Ventrue in his home city. The other is the rather saddening story of
the hapless Stefan Ruud, who failed to go insane when Embraced by the
Malkavian Pandora. Pandora not only rejected him but did her best to
either drive him insane or kill him. Ruud nonetheless survived for
quite a while but 'twould be a lie to say that he thrived.
>> Say whatever you please about the Sabbat, it
>> has far less bigotry built into the system than our opposite number.
>> And we reward success.
>With what?
I do not know but at a guess I would say that the usual reward for a
job well done is another job, hah?
>> Just have a look about and see what clan usually possesses the same
>> kind of abilitie(s) you find that you have, and claim that clan, as a
>> newblie, and presume to be less skilled than your truly are. But under
>> no circumstance claim to be a Malkavian, simply because it seems
>> 'fakeable'. Trust me, it is not.
>That sounds like a challenge :)
I would nonetheless suggest that you be careful before you make the
attempt.
>> I got someone watching my back. do you?
>The only person I trust, these nights ;/
>Angus, can I ask you a question? I have been sent to a city where I've
>been told that there is a Sabbat threat, but I don't entirely believe
>it.
>I'm currently suspecting that the local boss vampire is using that
>excuse to force all his vassals to send vampiric recruits (someone used
>the term cannon-fodder but I have no intention of doing a charge of the
>light brigade, myself) to put down some local political opponent. If
>it isn't a threat to your security, what signs could one look for that
>might point to genuine Sabbat attacks, or operations?
Heavens, this varies greatly on the Sabbat. Quite often they will use
heavy-handed methods such as assassinations, acts of terror against
the populace and place strain on the Masquerade, and finally frontally
attack the Camarilla vampires in the city. Yet other Sabbat will
instead employ infiltration, espionage, bribery and suborning locals
so as to discover every point of Camarilla power without alerting the
Kindred in the city. This latter kind of intrusion is quite hard to
detect, I have heard of at least one operation of this kind in which
the first warning the Camarilla had of things being awry was the fact
that almost every Kindred in the city more than a century old was
assassinated within a mere five minutes' time.
>Many thanks,
>Odette
>Caitiff
Byte_Sized
Odette <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Thank you for the explanation, it's much appreciated. When you say
> the '50s, I assume you are talking about the 1950s? Why did it take so
> long for your organisation to recognise clanless vampires if you are so
> egalitarian? Or is clanlessness quite rare amongst vampires?
No, the clanless have always been treated with equanimity. It was not until
the 1950's that they collectively fought for the right to be considered a
clan under Joseph Pander. As to why they did not pitch a bitch earlier, I
can't really say, it was before my time.
> > Say whatever you please about the Sabbat, it
> > has far less bigotry built into the system than our opposite number.
> > And we reward success.
>
> With what?
Responsibility.
> >
> > Just have a look about and see what clan usually possesses the same
> > kind of abilitie(s) you find that you have, and claim that clan, as a
> > newblie, and presume to be less skilled than your truly are. But under
> > no circumstance claim to be a Malkavian, simply because it seems
> > 'fakeable'. Trust me, it is not.
>
> That sounds like a challenge :)
No, it was a warning. Malkavians recognize each other in ways the rest of us
cannot begin to fathom, and if you were not drooling insane when you started,
you quite likely would be when they were done with you.
> > Maybe. and maybe not. Maybe you have months, kiddo, and maybe only
> > nights. Truth is, neither side knows.
> >
> > I cannot choose for you, just tell you to look past mortal morality,
> > to work with others, rather than alone, to treat them all like family
> > and trust them like strangers.
> >
> > I got someone watching my back. do you?
>
> The only person I trust, these nights ;/
Good enough.
> Angus, can I ask you a question? I have been sent to a city where I've
> been told that there is a Sabbat threat, but I don't entirely believe
> it.
>
> I'm currently suspecting that the local boss vampire is using that
> excuse to force all his vassals to send vampiric recruits (someone used
> the term cannon-fodder but I have no intention of doing a charge of the
> light brigade, myself) to put down some local political opponent. If
> it isn't a threat to your security, what signs could one look for that
> might point to genuine Sabbat attacks, or operations?
Well, there are many stages of Sabbat incursion, of course, and I don't know
what's going on in your neck of the woods, but in general, I'd say that one
method used is to shatter the Cammies precious Masquerade. Look for strings
of bloodless corpses with holes in their necks, or other 'vampire' style
crimes.
And we also like to weaken the support structure of a Prince, so will attack
things like newspapers, police departments, local politicians, etc. We also
like to use assassination as way of thumbing our nose at a Prince. Those he
personally has under his thumb start getting offed. If the Price is claiming
Sabbat incursion, and none of those things are happening, he is pulling your
chain.
That said, we do tend to scout out an area quite thoroughly before we start
tipping cows, so we might only be at that stage.
None of the above is a secret, ask anyone who has lost a city to the Sabbat.
But you wil need a necromancer, cause they are all dead. Well, most of them,
anyway.
> Many thanks,
>
> Odette
> Caitiff
Angus Duggan
--
http://www.egroups.com/group/WritersCube
http://www.egroups.com/group/Winemakers-R-Us
http://www.egroups.com/group/Vamperotica
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> A host of reasons, m'dear, for example you might be a Ventrue wishing
>> to lure specimens like the one above into making fools of themselves
>> <g>.
>That would be fun. I almost wish that I were. I imagine more highly
>ranked vampires don't have to spend their nights clambering over
>rooftops fighting some paranoid's half-imagined war (excuse my
>cynicism -- if we'd actually spotted an enemy, I would at least see the
>point.)
Believe me, m'dear, I understand. Still, it will not necessarily mean
a turn for the better if there actually is an enemy there, hah?
>> 'Tis devoutly to be hoped, I myself am in no shortage of hot air as
>> you may have noticed <g>.
>Not at all. Mr Shane, you write beautifully and at great length, and
>while I cannot speak for others, I have found your observations
>interesting and informative. I had never thought to say this to another
>vampire but I think you could work on your self-confidence ;)
You have seen through me, I fear, it is not precisely in good shape. I
am presently working on reconstructing it but this is not precisely an
easy task, donncha know.
>> Indeed, one law for the rich, one for the poor, and a completely
>> separate one for the ultra-rich, donncha know. And in the case of
>> these last it is not as much a law as a series of rough guidelines, as
>> my Great Grandsires is wont to say.
>You are on speaking terms with your great grandsire?
So to speak, yes, I do not meet him often but we get along well enow.
Mind, he is a rather conservative sort of chap, said the pot in an
aside to the frying pan.
>Odette
>Caitiff
Martin Shane, Clan Ventrue
Nik Hewitt
> >> As mentioned, I was attempting to win a bet. I succeeded, too; someone
> >> had claimed that I was unable to create a decent disguise without
> >> Vicissitude. I proved him wrong in that; it was not until the real
> >> Queen Ingrid appeared that they saw through my disguise. And even
> >> then, my affronted claim that she was an impostor bought me the time
> >> to retreat.
> >Commendable, entirely and unequivocally totally commendable.
> Thank you, dear friend.
> >> >You're not responsible for the sale of "Tower" bridge, are you...?
> >That was us, but as to whom exactly it escapes me.
I've remembered now who it was, but, was sworn to secrey at the time. The
person in question was also responsible, I am told, for Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle declairing his unmitergated belief in fairys.
> I specialise in Danish property, and normally avoid London. For some
> reason, the London Camarilla does not like me. *brilliant smile*
My dear, the London Camerilla do not like anyone. There was a Ventrue
chappie there who made Sir Harry Flashman look like he had the stiffest of
lips. Bloody chancer. The entire city is a gistapo khazi that I have had
the displeasure of bing run out on a rail from on numerous occasions. My
advice, never venture south of Birmingham unless one absolutly has to give
somone a good metaphysical "custard pie" for taking themselves too
seriously, as a great number of them do.
> >> Sadly, I am not. Usually I deal only in Royal Palaces, and the
> >> occasional 14-mile bridge connecting major Danish islands. *brilliant
> >> smile*
I spent 6 months in the Haigh on clan business a long time ago, it was the
full of Germans and we were having a blitz over here at the time. Buying
property actually, a water tower. I hear it's changed a lot since then.
> >Dearest Cristian is clearly a practitioner of reality manipulation, a
> >commendable occupation. People are most awake when under moments of high
> >emotion, other wise they are asleep. Providing them with the means to
> >awaken, as Christian so clearly does, is a noble art indeed. Breaking
>>the Masquerade is foolish and so we do the best we can with the tools we
have
> >;-)
> Too, breaking the Masquerade is so _easy_. There is no challenge to
> it. Now, gulling an entire crowd, _that_ is entertainment. *another
> brilliant smile*
Ahh, and now, we have the mass media. A whole new tool where people can
marvel at the spectical. Tell me, are you ever tempted? I love QVC and
sometimes fantasize about my own product range that removes creasote stains
from pie crusts. Of course it's all miserablist brain washing for the
proles and cattle but one could wake up so many in one go it's so sorely
tempting. None of us want to just be another notch on Bob's pipe.
> >May I enquire, my good lady/man in a dress (I suppose it's irrelevant
> >when one has Vicissitude), if you see a difference here, in your noble
art,
> >between the "accursed" (not my word) Malkavian tradition of "pranking"
> >and your chosen career. Do they not surely achieve the same thing as
> >discussed above and have therefore earn't your merit badge? :-)
> They most certainly do. I admit, normally I attempt to disrupt a
> person's existence through destroying his or her unlife, but again, it
> is the same phenomenon that you discussed. Admittedly, I usually do it
> for reasons of my own satisfaction and not specifically to disrupt
> reality, as you put it, but that nonetheless happens.
When next you are in England you really must come for tea and cake, don't
worry, we just look at them and never nibble :-)
> >There's an interesting analogy amongst the my folks that accuses the
Irish of
> >inventing the bag pipes. They then gave them to the Scottish who have
taken them
> >seriously ever since.
> HaHAAAA! I rather like that. *brilliant smile*
> > The story goes that the Irish invented the bagpipes ...
> >and the brats of Malkav invented Caine, then gave them to the other
> >clans who have taken him seriously ever since. I forget why I mention
> >this now, I was coming to a point that was entirely relevant, my
apologies,
> >but, essentially, I think we've all sold a few "royal palaces" to the
warmies
> >from time to time ;-)
> Oh, yes. The true challenge, of course, lies in selling them to
> Cainites as well. They are not necessarily more _intelligent_, but
> they do at times have powers that make them harder to fool.
Or easyer, because they rely on them and presume they can't be fooled. Ever
turned a strobe on a Toreador while they were using their Auspex, or snuck
up behind one with an air horn? They never thank you for it but they always
learn a lesson...
> >> Ah, me. Possibly I should have written *virtual* estate broker instead?
> >>*another brilliant smile*
> >A smile is always efficacious. Showing them your teeth lures them into a
> >false sense of security.
> Or alternately, an actual sense of insecurity. *brilliant smile*
:-) A pleasure to talk, again sometime no doubt.
> Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce surreality manipulator
Rev. Connie Achair HRRBT
Simon Magid
wrote:
>> Thank you for the explanation, it's much appreciated. When you say
>> the '50s, I assume you are talking about the 1950s? Why did it take so
>> long for your organisation to recognise clanless vampires if you are so
>> egalitarian? Or is clanlessness quite rare amongst vampires?
>No, the clanless have always been treated with equanimity.
I agree. Most Sabbat discriminated against them quite calmly and with
no particular negative emotions toward them.
> It was not until
>the 1950's that they collectively fought for the right to be considered a
>clan under Joseph Pander. As to why they did not pitch a bitch earlier, I
>can't really say, it was before my time.
Until then they lacked the numbers, the experience and a leader to
inspire them. They made several abortive attempts to be recognised
before that, but they all either failed or fell far short of their
intentions.
>> > Say whatever you please about the Sabbat, it
>> > has far less bigotry built into the system than our opposite number.
>> > And we reward success.
>> With what?
>Responsibility.
*shudder* This is unfortunately true. And I fear that it is not always
possible to evade it. Though I suppose I might have, had Premysl not
outmaneuvered me.
<snip>
>> Odette
>> Caitiff
>Angus Duggan
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce who did not evade quite fast enough
Odette
Byte_Sized <byte_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <94h20a$74a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Odette <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > > And we reward success.
> >
> > With what?
>
> Responsibility.
Ah.
> >
> > That sounds like a challenge :)
>
> No, it was a warning. Malkavians recognize each other in ways the
rest of us
> cannot begin to fathom, and if you were not drooling insane when you
started,
> you quite likely would be when they were done with you.
>
I appreciate the warning then.
>
> Well, there are many stages of Sabbat incursion, of course, and I
don't know
> what's going on in your neck of the woods, but in general, I'd say
that one
> method used is to shatter the Cammies precious Masquerade. Look for
strings
> of bloodless corpses with holes in their necks, or other 'vampire'
style
> crimes.
> <snip>
>
> That said, we do tend to scout out an area quite thoroughly before we
start
> tipping cows, so we might only be at that stage.
This is partly what I was wondering. Oh, there have been killings
alright. Immensely bloody killings, and crazily vampiric killings --
it's all a bit hammer house of horror/ buckets of blood. I had not
realised how thoroughly vampires could control the spread of
information until yesterday night, when I sat in on what I can only
call a brainwashing session of some policemen; I don't know why but I
found that more worrying than the killings. I mean, blood is blood, but
sitting around and giggling while someone's mind is like plasticine in
your hand is ... something quite other.
Probably I should try to learn that trick.
The vampires here are all crying, "Sabbat. Sabbat. Sabbat." -- but
there is something niggling in my mind about the targets. It's not very
discriminate, except that they were all ghouls (or so I am told).
>
> None of the above is a secret, ask anyone who has lost a city to the
Sabbat.
> But you wil need a necromancer, cause they are all dead.
*smile* Of course they're all dead. They're all vampires (!)
So "no survivors" is a common strategy also?
Odette
Caitiff
--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
---> G K Chesterton < ---
Odette
Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >I have been very bad over this last year. I have done a lot of things
> >just because I was curious, and just because I could. So who will
come
> >to me and ask for justice on behalf of people I have killed, or
twisted
> >around my finger, or whose hearts I have broken?
> >
> Nobody, but if they were kindred they will fight for themselves, if
> human, well they will get over it. In a few decades they will be dust,
> so why worry.
"A few decades" -- how easily you say it.
> >
> >Surely power and privilege always rule, because otherwise the
powerful
> >and privileged would not support the society at all?
> >
>
> True, but the more people there are who share the power the less scope
> for serious abuse exists.
>
Because hopefully they balance each other out?
> Yes it was lucky for you, a lot of gangs would have just killed you
> straight out.
> But tell me more of this sorcerer.
I can try.
I don't remember anything about becoming a vampire. I have these bleak
dreams of death, like falling slowly into a quiet, black lake and
floating there, but I don't remember my own death, or who killed me.
The first I knew of it was a slow awakening and then I was naked, there
was a piece of wood in my chest, and I couldn't move at all.
I am making some dramatic assumptions that the man was a sorceror,
because he talked in 'mystic' and bled me religiously every week. I
heard him talking to his girlfriend (who I later killed, unfortunately)
about patterns he had painted on the walls and ceiling, but I couldn't
see them. They fed me through a tube -- although at the time I didn't
realise what they were dripping into my throat.
It was all very surreal, and for a long while I wondered if it was some
strange dream. I could barely feel anything, not cold, not warm, not
fear, not pins in my wrist or hands on my stomach (I suppose he wasn't
used to having immobile naked women in his house -- but I felt nothing
at all), except for hunger of course. I didn't realise that I was
only 'awake' at night, because the room was always lowly lit and I
didn't know if it had windows at all. I suppose after a while I started
to worry about my life and my sanity, but it was all so ridiculous that
In retrospect, I can only guess that he was perhaps already a ghoul,
and had been given me as his own personal blood supply. Or perhaps he
was really a sorceror and had some other use for vampiric blood. At the
time, I didn't think of any of these things, because I didn't realise
that I was dead.
> >
> It takes years, and often you just replace one set of prejudices with
> another. I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
nearly
> 1500 years!
>
How very depressing.
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <o+RbHVAk...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >I have been very bad over this last year. I have done a lot of things
>> >just because I was curious, and just because I could. So who will
>come
>> >to me and ask for justice on behalf of people I have killed, or
>twisted
>> >around my finger, or whose hearts I have broken?
>> >
>> Nobody, but if they were kindred they will fight for themselves, if
>> human, well they will get over it. In a few decades they will be dust,
>> so why worry.
>
>
>"A few decades" -- how easily you say it.
>
>
>> >
>> >Surely power and privilege always rule, because otherwise the
>powerful
>> >and privileged would not support the society at all?
>> >
>>
>> True, but the more people there are who share the power the less scope
>> for serious abuse exists.
>>
>
>Because hopefully they balance each other out?
>
Basically yes, and because they are less able to act without
consequence.
>
>> Yes it was lucky for you, a lot of gangs would have just killed you
>> straight out.
>> But tell me more of this sorcerer.
>
>I can try.
>
Please.
>I don't remember anything about becoming a vampire. I have these bleak
>dreams of death, like falling slowly into a quiet, black lake and
>floating there, but I don't remember my own death, or who killed me.
>The first I knew of it was a slow awakening and then I was naked, there
>was a piece of wood in my chest, and I couldn't move at all.
>
Staked, somebody knew what you were.
>I am making some dramatic assumptions that the man was a sorceror,
>because he talked in 'mystic' and bled me religiously every week. I
>heard him talking to his girlfriend (who I later killed, unfortunately)
>about patterns he had painted on the walls and ceiling, but I couldn't
>see them. They fed me through a tube -- although at the time I didn't
>realise what they were dripping into my throat.
>
Strange, it sounds like you were needed for some form of magic.
>It was all very surreal, and for a long while I wondered if it was some
>strange dream. I could barely feel anything, not cold, not warm, not
>fear, not pins in my wrist or hands on my stomach (I suppose he wasn't
>used to having immobile naked women in his house -- but I felt nothing
>at all), except for hunger of course. I didn't realise that I was
>only 'awake' at night, because the room was always lowly lit and I
>didn't know if it had windows at all. I suppose after a while I started
>to worry about my life and my sanity, but it was all so ridiculous that
>
>In retrospect, I can only guess that he was perhaps already a ghoul,
>and had been given me as his own personal blood supply. Or perhaps he
>was really a sorceror and had some other use for vampiric blood. At the
>time, I didn't think of any of these things, because I didn't realise
>that I was dead.
>
He could have been both I suppose. And he probably did get a certain
thrill from having a naked Cainite at his disposal. I suppose his
girlfriend could have created you as a blood supply for him. You are
fortunate he did not have a better understanding of Cainite physiology,
he could have tortured you quite severely.
>
>> >
>> It takes years, and often you just replace one set of prejudices with
>> another. I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
>nearly
>> 1500 years!
>>
>
>How very depressing.
>
And dangerous.
>
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Simon Magid
wrote:
>This is partly what I was wondering. Oh, there have been killings
>alright. Immensely bloody killings, and crazily vampiric killings --
>it's all a bit hammer house of horror/ buckets of blood. I had not
>realised how thoroughly vampires could control the spread of
>information until yesterday night, when I sat in on what I can only
>call a brainwashing session of some policemen; I don't know why but I
>found that more worrying than the killings. I mean, blood is blood, but
>sitting around and giggling while someone's mind is like plasticine in
>your hand is ... something quite other.
I should bally well say so. M'dear Odette, I have practiced the mind
arts for many years and I frankly admit that I find few things more
frightening and repulsive than a mindcrafter who treats his powers and
subjects like toys. Mine own methods with these powers are based on
restraint more than anything else, I consider it the acme of
excellence to convince others to share one's own opinions and go along
one's ideas with no use of mental power at all.
>Probably I should try to learn that trick.
It is highly useful, I commend it to you. My personal preference is to
use it as little as possible and as subtly as possible, the less
mindwork you do the less chance of it unravelling at some embarrassing
moment, what?
>The vampires here are all crying, "Sabbat. Sabbat. Sabbat." -- but
>there is something niggling in my mind about the targets. It's not very
>discriminate, except that they were all ghouls (or so I am told).
I find that very strange for several reasons. Primus, how would the
Sabbat know that these creatures are Ghouls? Secundus, why would the
Sabbat attack the servants and not the masters? Tertius, what benefit
could the Sabbat reap from such actions that it could not achieve more
easily and effectively by striking elsewhere? For some reason my
instincts suggest that it may be inter-Camarilla strife that the
perpetrator attempts to pass off as Sabbat destabilisation.
>> None of the above is a secret, ask anyone who has lost a city to the
>Sabbat.
>> But you wil need a necromancer, cause they are all dead.
This is a gross exaggeration and you are well aware of it. Lady
Johanna Skytte is a survivor of one such attack and has e'en spoken
publicly of it here.
>*smile* Of course they're all dead. They're all vampires (!)
>So "no survivors" is a common strategy also?
Why not, 'tis the one I have attempted to use against them whene'er
they have attacked in a place in which I was part of the defense.
Simon Magid
<nik.h...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> I specialise in Danish property, and normally avoid London. For some
>> reason, the London Camarilla does not like me. *brilliant smile*
>My dear, the London Camerilla do not like anyone. There was a Ventrue
>chappie there who made Sir Harry Flashman look like he had the stiffest of
>lips. Bloody chancer. The entire city is a gistapo khazi that I have had
>the displeasure of bing run out on a rail from on numerous occasions.
*sigh* How utterly unimaginative. Running someone out of town -- or
more futile yet, killing him -- just for letting the air out of a few
people's egos strikes me as such a declaration of helplessness. When
someone plays pranks on _me_, I usually strike back by attempting to
do it back to her or him.
> My
>advice, never venture south of Birmingham unless one absolutly has to give
>somone a good metaphysical "custard pie" for taking themselves too
>seriously, as a great number of them do.
So noted, dear friend. And I agree with that latter qualification. At
times, everybody needs to be taken down a peg or two. Including thee
and me. *brilliant smile*
<snip>
>> Too, breaking the Masquerade is so _easy_. There is no challenge to
>> it. Now, gulling an entire crowd, _that_ is entertainment. *another
>> brilliant smile*
>Ahh, and now, we have the mass media. A whole new tool where people can
>marvel at the spectical. Tell me, are you ever tempted?
Oh, yes. And I am notoriously poor at resisting temptation. As a
matter of fact, it is about time that I take another look at the
media; thank you for reminding me, dear friend. *another brilliant
smile*
> I love QVC and
>sometimes fantasize about my own product range that removes creasote stains
>from pie crusts. Of course it's all miserablist brain washing for the
>proles and cattle but one could wake up so many in one go it's so sorely
>tempting. None of us want to just be another notch on Bob's pipe.
I certainly agree. It is merely difficult to make the man on the
street see that this is, in fact, what he is.
>When next you are in England you really must come for tea and cake, don't
>worry, we just look at them and never nibble :-)
Thank you for the invitation, dear friend. Should the opportunity
arrive, I shall certainly make use of it. *yet another brilliant
smile*
>> Oh, yes. The true challenge, of course, lies in selling them to
>> Cainites as well. They are not necessarily more _intelligent_, but
>> they do at times have powers that make them harder to fool.
>Or easyer, because they rely on them and presume they can't be fooled.
True, true.
> Ever
>turned a strobe on a Toreador while they were using their Auspex, or snuck
>up behind one with an air horn? They never thank you for it but they always
>learn a lesson...
People are _so_ ungrateful. *still another brilliant smile*
>:-) A pleasure to talk, again sometime no doubt.
No doubt. Enjoy your nights, dear friend, that is what they are there
for.
>Rev. Connie Achair HRRBT
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce enjoying the night life
Odette
Cainite is another slang word for vampire, then? I hadn't heard it
before.
So far as naive goes, I don't know how else to describe it. I felt as
though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that the
man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
This reminds me of Rebecca West's famous quote about feminists.
> >
> >What does 'seekers of perfection' mean?
> >
> It is the name of my Pack.
I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
Kevin Pople
deja.com> writes
>In article <V$KE3TAI$Ab6...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> So naive Cainites? What a bizarre thought!
>>
>
>Cainite is another slang word for vampire, then? I hadn't heard it
>before.
>
'Kindred'.
>So far as naive goes, I don't know how else to describe it. I felt as
>though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that the
>man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
>misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
>
>This reminds me of Rebecca West's famous quote about feminists.
>
Which is?
>> >
>> >What does 'seekers of perfection' mean?
>> >
>> It is the name of my Pack.
>
>I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
>Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
>
We are not an army as such, more a warrior society. We would be much the
same were there no war. A pack is a social unit not just a military one.
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
Odette
Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"A few decades" -- how easily you say it.
> >
> It gets easier as you go on.
>
> >>
> >> True, but the more people there are who share the power the less
scope
> >> for serious abuse exists.
> >>
> >
> >Because hopefully they balance each other out?
> >
> Basically yes, and because they are less able to act without
> consequence.
It is all quite dreadfully unfair. Why should supernatural creatures be
bound by mundane laws of cause and effect?
> >They fed me through a tube -- although at the time I didn't
> >realise what they were dripping into my throat.
> >
> Strange, it sounds like you were needed for some form of magic.
Or maybe he thought so. I do believe in magic; I used to have several
books on chaos magic in my old rooms. Sometimes it worked for me. I
suppose vampiric blood could be quite potent for some kinds of spells --
is that the sort of magic you are talking about?
> >In retrospect, I can only guess that he was perhaps already a ghoul,
> >and had been given me as his own personal blood supply. Or perhaps he
> >was really a sorceror and had some other use for vampiric blood. At
the
> >time, I didn't think of any of these things, because I didn't realise
> >that I was dead.
> >
> He could have been both I suppose. And he probably did get a certain
> thrill from having a naked Cainite at his disposal. I suppose his
> girlfriend could have created you as a blood supply for him. You are
> fortunate he did not have a better understanding of Cainite
physiology,
> he could have tortured you quite severely.
I feel duly fortunate :)
But this is why I don't know very much about my creator (with a
small 'c' -- I've never been very religious, to the consternation of my
mother who was a good Catholic.) And I am very, very glad to not be
there any more. Partly this is why I can be equinanimous about some of
the beatings I have had recently. It is all relative.
> >
> >> I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
> >nearly
> >> 1500 years!
> >>
> >
> >How very depressing.
> >
> And dangerous.
>
For the poor modern-day Romans, you mean?
I was also sorry to hear about being forced to torture people you
loved. That's quite horrible. I don't think anyone should have to do it.
Odette
Simon Magid <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:41:56 GMT, Odette <copper...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> Mine own methods with these powers are based on
> restraint more than anything else, I consider it the acme of
> excellence to convince others to share one's own opinions and go along
> one's ideas with no use of mental power at all.
But where's the fun in that, Mr Shane?
I'm quite torn. On one hand, I think that forcing people to kneel at my
feet, acknowledge me as their master, and obey my every command
unquestioningly would be a very bad thing to do. On the other hand, I
_am_ a very bad thing, and wouldn't it be interesting?
As Dorothy Parker puts it:
"My slaves I'd like to bind with thongs
That cut and burn and chill ...
But I am writing little songs,
As little ladies will."
> >The vampires here are all crying, "Sabbat. Sabbat. Sabbat." -- but
> >there is something niggling in my mind about the targets. It's not
very
> >discriminate, except that they were all ghouls (or so I am told).
>
<...>
> For some reason my
> instincts suggest that it may be inter-Camarilla strife that the
> perpetrator attempts to pass off as Sabbat destabilisation.
I don't think I will ever know whether there were really Sabbat plots
behind the killings or some internecine politics. The only vampire who
possibly did know is now dead, he was executed by the local boss
vampire after we fingered him, and no-one seemed too worried about
asking questions.
That was just before I was run out of town, so who can say? I do know
that there was one vampire I met there who was definitely in disguise.
Not supernatural disguise; wigs and make-up disguise, and a good one
too. I've no idea if anyone else noticed, but I was an actress, and I
know some of the tricks. Still; it really isn't any of my business and
I don't feel inclined to make an issue of it.
>
> >So "no survivors" is a common strategy also?
>
> Why not, 'tis the one I have attempted to use against them whene'er
> they have attacked in a place in which I was part of the defense.
I don't know. I thought that if it was a regular war you might take
captives and use them for prisoner exchanges, maybe. Slash and burn
seems very ... final.
Spider-ic
> In article <V$KE3TAI$Ab6...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> > So naive Cainites? What a bizarre thought!
> >
>
> Cainite is another slang word for vampire, then? I hadn't heard it
> before.
You've got leech, cainite (from the name of the mythical founder
Caine), Kindred, vampire, bloodsucker, and lawyer for nicknames and
titles for our kind. (okay, I'm kidding about the lawyer part... sort
of.)
> So far as naive goes, I don't know how else to describe it. I felt as
> though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that the
> man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
> misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
Camarilla city?
> This reminds me of Rebecca West's famous quote about feminists.
>
> > >
> > >What does 'seekers of perfection' mean?
> > >
> > It is the name of my Pack.
>
> I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
> Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
We are a sect. We are a social group as well as military. We are a
family, a brotherhood, a dysfunctional soap opera sometimes.
Packs also function as troops. If you want it in military style
things, think of it as a unit. Those units can combine to fight
together in progressively larger groups.
But they serve as a family of sorts. My pack is my family and I care
for them. They care back. We watch out for each other, support each
other and goof off together sometimes. There is comraderie there that
could in some ways be similar to the concept of a coterie in the
Camarilla and a gang in the Anarch lexicon. Even if ours is more
extreme, more balanced usually, and truer.
> Odette
> Caitiff
J'Zikal Aur
Ductus of the Walking Shadows
And gods, does it suck up one's time to lead.
Odette
Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <94pidu$in1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette <copperbird31@my-
> deja.com> writes
>
> >though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that the
> >man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
> >misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
> >
> >This reminds me of Rebecca West's famous quote about feminists.
> >
> Which is?
>
"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is;
I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express
sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
I suppose nowadays people would call you a post-porn feminist if you
expressed the opinion that women are happier to be barefoot and naked
in the kitchen and that porn isn't exploitational.
> >I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
> >Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
> >
> We are not an army as such, more a warrior society. We would be much
the
> same were there no war. A pack is a social unit not just a military
one.
Ah. It sounded more formal to me.
Daria Meredith
>I was also sorry to hear about being forced to torture people you
>loved. That's quite horrible. I don't think anyone should have to do it.
>
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
Unless they ask you to do it, eh, Baron? <eg>
--
Daria
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <UTVEMAA3...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"A few decades" -- how easily you say it.
>> >
>> It gets easier as you go on.
>>
>
>> >>
>> >> True, but the more people there are who share the power the less
>scope
>> >> for serious abuse exists.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Because hopefully they balance each other out?
>> >
>> Basically yes, and because they are less able to act without
>> consequence.
>
>
>It is all quite dreadfully unfair. Why should supernatural creatures be
>bound by mundane laws of cause and effect?
>
>
>> >They fed me through a tube -- although at the time I didn't
>> >realise what they were dripping into my throat.
>> >
>> Strange, it sounds like you were needed for some form of magic.
>
>Or maybe he thought so. I do believe in magic; I used to have several
>books on chaos magic in my old rooms. Sometimes it worked for me. I
>suppose vampiric blood could be quite potent for some kinds of spells --
> is that the sort of magic you are talking about?
>
Yes, I remember encountering a mortal wizard who wanted vampire blood
for some experiment. He also wanted Lupine blood. The approach we took
was 'Lets you and him fight.'
>
>> >In retrospect, I can only guess that he was perhaps already a ghoul,
>> >and had been given me as his own personal blood supply. Or perhaps he
>> >was really a sorceror and had some other use for vampiric blood. At
>the
>> >time, I didn't think of any of these things, because I didn't realise
>> >that I was dead.
>> >
>> He could have been both I suppose. And he probably did get a certain
>> thrill from having a naked Cainite at his disposal. I suppose his
>> girlfriend could have created you as a blood supply for him. You are
>> fortunate he did not have a better understanding of Cainite
>physiology,
>> he could have tortured you quite severely.
>
>
>I feel duly fortunate :)
>
You should.
>But this is why I don't know very much about my creator (with a
>small 'c' -- I've never been very religious, to the consternation of my
>mother who was a good Catholic.) And I am very, very glad to not be
>there any more. Partly this is why I can be equinanimous about some of
>the beatings I have had recently. It is all relative.
>
Indeed it is.
>> >
>> >> I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
>> >nearly
>> >> 1500 years!
>> >>
>> >
>> >How very depressing.
>> >
>> And dangerous.
>>
>
>For the poor modern-day Romans, you mean?
>
Twelfth Century Romans actually.
>I was also sorry to hear about being forced to torture people you
>loved. That's quite horrible. I don't think anyone should have to do it.
>
It was quite horrible. And I thank you.
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Istvan Batory
<m...@mbenn.demon.co.uk> writes
*Smile*
Of course, that is simply a matter of fun and games.
Kevin Pople
deja.com> writes
>In article <OIwyaJA$iHc6...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Kevin Pople <See...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <94pidu$in1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette <copperbird31@my-
>> deja.com> writes
>>
>> >I felt as
>> >though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that the
>> >man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
>> >misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
>> >
>> >This reminds me of Rebecca West's famous quote about feminists.
>> >
>> Which is?
>>
>
>"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is;
>I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express
>sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
>
>I suppose nowadays people would call you a post-porn feminist if you
>expressed the opinion that women are happier to be barefoot and naked
>in the kitchen and that porn isn't exploitational.
>
Guess so.
>> >I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
>> >Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
>> >
>> We are not an army as such, more a warrior society. We would be much
>the
>> same were there no war. A pack is a social unit not just a military
>one.
>
>
>Ah. It sounded more formal to me.
>
*LOL*
formal us?
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Daria Meredith
following:
>I was also sorry to hear about being forced to torture people you
>>>loved. That's quite horrible. I don't think anyone should have to do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>Odette
>>>Caitiff
>>
>>Unless they ask you to do it, eh, Baron? <eg>
>
>*Smile*
>Of course, that is simply a matter of fun and games.
>
BTW didn't you have a friend called Gabriel who posted here? He used to
write screeds of poetry? I think his child is looking for you.
--
Daria
Istvan Batory
<m...@mbenn.demon.co.uk> writes
Yes
> I think his child is looking for you.
He is? I shall go look.
Daria Meredith
>>write screeds of poetry?
>
>Yes
>
>> I think his child is looking for you.
>
>He is? I shall go look.
Try Xander - on *I was told you might be able to help.* His reply to the
Rev 25.01.01
--
Daria
Istvan Batory
<m...@mbenn.demon.co.uk> writes
Ah, thank you.
SimonMagid2
In article <94s3hs$p84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette wrote:
>
>"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is;
>I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express
>sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
Ahhh, who cares about what 'people' think? Once one has chosen one's
ground, one should remain there and not shift it merely on the basis
of peer pressure. Of course, changing one's opinion based on new
information and on the basis of the reasoned _arguments_ of others
is an entirely different matter.
>I suppose nowadays people would call you a post-porn feminist if you
>expressed the opinion that women are happier to be barefoot and naked
>in the kitchen and that porn isn't exploitational.
The former? I sincerely doubt it. The latter? I admit, I have a hard time
seeing why it would be considered exploitational. Or rather, I have a
hard time seeing why _all_ pornographic material should be considered
exploitational. For example, last night I spent a quite enjoyable half-
hour studying the pictures in 'Playgirl'. And while quite a few of the
pictures therein in my opinion fell rather flat, some of them struck
me as quite erotic as well as aesthetically pleasing. (Of all things, what
struck Jess most strongly was a set of _book shelves_ behind one
of the models. *sigh* Brujah.)
What I fail to understand is _why_ one should consider these models victims
of exploitation. They were under no coercion, they were paid, and some
of them seemed quite pleased with the opportunity to display their
attributes. Admittedly, not all pornography falls into this category,
but this was my precise point.
>Odette
>Caitiff
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce exploiter
Odette
Spider-ic <gypsy...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Odette <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > Cainite is another slang word for vampire, then? I hadn't heard it
> > before.
>
> You've got leech, cainite (from the name of the mythical founder
> Caine), Kindred, vampire, bloodsucker, and lawyer for nicknames and
> titles for our kind. (okay, I'm kidding about the lawyer part... sort
> of.)
Having a mythical founder makes vampires sound like a bank, or a girls'
school. ("And now we will gather round and sing a hymn in honour of our
mythical founder...") So there was really one original vampire? I
suppose I assumed there was some evolution involved.
>
> > So far as naive goes, I don't know how else to describe it. I felt
as
> > though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that
the
> > man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
> > misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
>
> Camarilla city?
They were worried about Sabbat threats, so I assume that it must have
been?
> > I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
> > Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
>
> We are a sect. We are a social group as well as military. We are a
> family, a brotherhood, a dysfunctional soap opera sometimes.
> Packs also function as troops. If you want it in military style
> things, think of it as a unit. Those units can combine to fight
> together in progressively larger groups.
> But they serve as a family of sorts. My pack is my family and I
care
> for them. They care back. We watch out for each other, support each
> other and goof off together sometimes. There is comraderie there that
> could in some ways be similar to the concept of a coterie in the
> Camarilla and a gang in the Anarch lexicon. Even if ours is more
> extreme, more balanced usually, and truer.
Family, I can understand. I do not think I have met any vampires I
would care to have as relations (unless they were very distant uncles
on the other side of the globe who sent me huge sums of money every
birthday but never wanted to see me), but I think I understand what you
mean by pack. Thank you for the explanation.
How can something be more extreme and also more balanced, though? And
what happens if you don't get on so well with your pack -- do they
throw you out?
Odette
Caitiff
--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
---> G K Chesterton < ---
Odette
simon...@aol.com (SimonMagid2) wrote:
>
> In article <94s3hs$p84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette wrote:
>
> >
> >"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism
is;
> >I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express
> >sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
>
> Ahhh, who cares about what 'people' think? Once one has chosen one's
> ground, one should remain there and not shift it merely on the basis
> of peer pressure. Of course, changing one's opinion based on new
> information and on the basis of the reasoned _arguments_ of others
> is an entirely different matter.
That rather depends on whether the reasoned _arguments_ involve death
threats, I find.
Other than that, I agree with you completely.
>
> >I suppose nowadays people would call you a post-porn feminist if you
> >expressed the opinion that women are happier to be barefoot and naked
> >in the kitchen and that porn isn't exploitational.
>
> The former? I sincerely doubt it. The latter? I admit, I have a hard
time
> seeing why it would be considered exploitational.
You picked the current subject line, which I thought was interesting.
Why do you assume that exploitational referred to the models, rather
than the customers?
If you speak to a pornographer -- by which I mean someone who owns the
magazine, produces the film, or makes their living from the product --
you will probably be left in no doubt that he is exploiting both
the 'talent' and the customer. They are quite nasty individuals. It's a
dirty trade, Mr Radulescu.
In any case, I don't personally believe that porn empowers women, which
is the (post-porn) feminist line.
>For example, last night I spent a quite enjoyable half-
> hour studying the pictures in 'Playgirl'.
As long as half an hour? No. I don't want to know.
And while quite a few of the
> pictures therein in my opinion fell rather flat, some of them struck
> me as quite erotic as well as aesthetically pleasing. (Of all things,
what
> struck Jess most strongly was a set of _book shelves_ behind one
> of the models. *sigh* Brujah.)
I was watching the porn channel here in the B&B the other night, but
not for long because it was exceedingly dull. What struck me most
strongly was that none of the women ever took their shoes off. They
might strip naked in all other respects, but they would all end up
lying with their legs in the air, waving white stilettos at the camera.
Very strange.
I don't remember bookshelves ;) I will try to pay more attention to the
furniture if I flick to that channel again.
>
> What I fail to understand is _why_ one should consider these models
victims
> of exploitation. They were under no coercion, they were paid, and some
> of them seemed quite pleased with the opportunity to display their
> attributes. Admittedly, not all pornography falls into this category,
> but this was my precise point.
All labour is exploited. That's what it means to be a salaryman or a
wage-slave. Workers sell their time and effort to employers in return
for money. Hence capitalism.
I am smiling now. I don't need to play that game any more.
SimonMagid2
In article <954b0v$581$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette wrote:
> simon...@aol.com (SimonMagid2) wrote:
>> Ahhh, who cares about what 'people' think? Once one has chosen one's
>> ground, one should remain there and not shift it merely on the basis
>> of peer pressure. Of course, changing one's opinion based on new
>> information and on the basis of the reasoned _arguments_ of others
>> is an entirely different matter.
>That rather depends on whether the reasoned _arguments_ involve death
>threats, I find.
Oh, but a death threat is a quite convincing argument, my dear.
Death threats, and the carrying out of same, have settled endless
amounts of disputes through the ages. If one does not desire to
yield to such a threat, one must find a way to either survive the
threat or eliminate it. Yielding to it is certainly one method, though
not necessarily safe and certainly not satisfying; running away from
it is another.
Admittedly, my own favourite response is to come up with a better
one myself. *brilliant smile*
>Other than that, I agree with you completely.
As well that you do not fully agree, dear friend. Or this would
swiftly become a quite boring conversation. *another brilliant
smile*
>> The former? I sincerely doubt it. The latter? I admit, I have a hard
>time
>> seeing why it would be considered exploitational.
>You picked the current subject line, which I thought was interesting.
>Why do you assume that exploitational referred to the models, rather
>than the customers?
*shrug* I did not, really. I inserted a new subject line simply because
I felt that the old one had outlived its usefulness, and I frankly admit
that I could have done better in my choice. It was merely what
came to my rather tired mind at the time.
>If you speak to a pornographer -- by which I mean someone who owns the
>magazine, produces the film, or makes their living from the product --
>you will probably be left in no doubt that he is exploiting both
>the 'talent' and the customer. They are quite nasty individuals. It's a
>dirty trade, Mr Radulescu.
Oh, I do not doubt you, dear friend. Business is not a gentle game,
and some businesses even less so than others.
>In any case, I don't personally believe that porn empowers women, which
>is the (post-porn) feminist line.
*shrug* Possibly not. But does it necessarily _demean_ women?
Or for that matter, does it demean men? Would it not be at least
as hypocritical to deny that the reproductive urge exists at all?
>>For example, last night I spent a quite enjoyable half-
>> hour studying the pictures in 'Playgirl'.
>As long as half an hour? No. I don't want to know.
Oh, come now, dear friend. _Some_ part of you must wish to know,
or why else would you have asked the question? *brilliant smile*
>> And while quite a few of the
>> pictures therein in my opinion fell rather flat, some of them struck
>> me as quite erotic as well as aesthetically pleasing. (Of all things,
>what
>> struck Jess most strongly was a set of _book shelves_ behind one
>> of the models. *sigh* Brujah.)
>I was watching the porn channel here in the B&B the other night, but
>not for long because it was exceedingly dull. What struck me most
>strongly was that none of the women ever took their shoes off. They
>might strip naked in all other respects, but they would all end up
>lying with their legs in the air, waving white stilettos at the camera.
>Very strange.
*sigh* True. I have never managed to watch even five consecutive
minutes of such movies without feeling an uncontrollable urge
to either change channels or turn the television off. But then, I
only done so when feeling the masochistic urge to discover
precisely _how_ poorly made they are.
>I don't remember bookshelves ;) I will try to pay more attention to the
>furniture if I flick to that channel again.
It was in the February issue of 'Playgirl', dear friend, so save yourself
the bother. I doubt such movies are crafted with the literate in mind.
>> What I fail to understand is _why_ one should consider these models
>victims
>> of exploitation. They were under no coercion, they were paid, and some
>> of them seemed quite pleased with the opportunity to display their
>> attributes. Admittedly, not all pornography falls into this category,
>> but this was my precise point.
>All labour is exploited. That's what it means to be a salaryman or a
>wage-slave. Workers sell their time and effort to employers in return
>for money. Hence capitalism.
Oh, you mean _that_ sort of exploitation. Yes, of course. But then, this
is true of any political system that has ever been implemented -- from
the early Egyptian monarchies through Thomas Aquinas and Adam Smith
to our current-day so-called democracies.
>I am smiling now. I don't need to play that game any more.
Of course not. It still seems to be very much on your mind, however.
Not that that is surprising; I often find myself wondering about mortal
issues that do not really affect me any more, if for no other reason
than intellectual fascination.
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce with too much time on hand for wondering
Spider-ic
> Spider-ic <gypsy...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Odette <copper...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Cainite is another slang word for vampire, then? I hadn't heard it
> > > before.
> >
> > You've got leech, cainite (from the name of the mythical founder
> > Caine), Kindred, vampire, bloodsucker, and lawyer for nicknames and
> > titles for our kind. (okay, I'm kidding about the lawyer part...
sort
> > of.)
>
> Having a mythical founder makes vampires sound like a bank, or a
girls'
> school. ("And now we will gather round and sing a hymn in honour of
our
> mythical founder...") So there was really one original vampire? I
> suppose I assumed there was some evolution involved.
*amused grin* That is a most amusing mental image.
I've heard the evolution theory. It's... interesting. I cannot
follow it, but it doesn't ring true with myself or my path.
> > > So far as naive goes, I don't know how else to describe it. I felt
> as
> > > though every time I opened my mouth (for example: to suggest that
> the
> > > man who gave us the initial briefing might have been deliberately
> > > misleading) I was told that I sounded like an anarch.
> >
> > Camarilla city?
>
> They were worried about Sabbat threats, so I assume that it must have
> been?
Most likely. Phoenix, Arizona, USA, is an independant city and
mildly afraid of them. But most cities are Cammie or sabbat.
> > > I had the impression that the Sabbat was a military organisation.
> > > Shouldn't you have troops and brigades instead?
> >
> > We are a sect. We are a social group as well as military. We
are a
> > family, a brotherhood, a dysfunctional soap opera sometimes.
> > Packs also function as troops. If you want it in military style
> > things, think of it as a unit. Those units can combine to fight
> > together in progressively larger groups.
> > But they serve as a family of sorts. My pack is my family and I
> care
> > for them. They care back. We watch out for each other, support
each
> > other and goof off together sometimes. There is comraderie there
that
> > could in some ways be similar to the concept of a coterie in the
> > Camarilla and a gang in the Anarch lexicon. Even if ours is more
> > extreme, more balanced usually, and truer.
>
> Family, I can understand. I do not think I have met any vampires I
> would care to have as relations (unless they were very distant uncles
> on the other side of the globe who sent me huge sums of money every
> birthday but never wanted to see me), but I think I understand what
you
> mean by pack. Thank you for the explanation.
I never thought I would either. Then I had it and realized what I
had been missing.
> How can something be more extreme and also more balanced, though? And
> what happens if you don't get on so well with your pack -- do they
> throw you out?
We go beyond just a coterie. We are bound by something other than
just friendship and cause. We are bound as if all truely brothers and
sister. Our loyalty is above par. (not to say there are not
exceptions, there always are)
And each of us serves a role, brings something to the pack and is
recognized for it. Thus we are more balanced.
If you don't get along, you can be thrown out yes. Or you can choose
to leave. At that point you are free to find a pack who will take you
in. As long as your not an abject moron, there will be a pack to take
you in.
> Odette
> Caitiff
J'Zikal Aur
"Ask me not for mercy, for if ye be men of honor you will die like men
of honor"
Odette
Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >It is all quite dreadfully unfair. Why should supernatural creatures
be
> >bound by mundane laws of cause and effect?
> >
>
> We get away with not dying, it seems only reasonable we obey other
laws.
>
Maybe only until we learn how to bypass them. I have seen a vampire
break the law of gravity, for example. It makes me wonder how many
other mundane laws I could break myself, if I really put my mind to
it ... I don't count moral imperatives like "Doing good is rewarded"
and "Any evil you do returns to the wielder threefold", because it is
clear to me that neither of these are the case.
So which laws do you obey?
Sympathise about the wizard. I am not a violent woman -- with some
minor exceptions -- but if this being bled for experiments is a common
fancy I could see my way to taking umbrage at any more of them I ever
locate. It wouldn't be personal, or even Luddite; I'm not opposed to
the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. And I would make sure to
tell my victims this as I hung them upside down above an open fire.
As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
> >> >
> >> >> I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
> >> >nearly
> >> >> 1500 years!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >How very depressing.
> >> >
> >> And dangerous.
> >>
> >
> >For the poor modern-day Romans, you mean?
> >
> Twelfth Century Romans actually.
So what made him change his mind after 1500 years?
SFryar
>In article <94s3hs$p84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette wrote:
>
>>
>>"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is;
>>I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express
>>sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
>
>Ahhh, who cares about what 'people' think? Once one has chosen one's
>ground, one should remain there and not shift it merely on the basis
>of peer pressure. Of course, changing one's opinion based on new
>information and on the basis of the reasoned _arguments_ of others
>is an entirely different matter.
When my sire chose me to become a model for him, he was intrigued by my beauty,
and wanted to immortalize it, but when I opened my mouth and proved that I had
the potential to become much more than merely "eye candy", he took me under his
wing and taught me how I could assert myself in all situations without bowing
down to peer pressure. The experience was truly a revelation.
>>I suppose nowadays people would call you a post-porn feminist if you
>>expressed the opinion that women are happier to be barefoot and naked
>>in the kitchen and that porn isn't exploitational.
Hmmmmmm... Interesting thought.
>The former? I sincerely doubt it. The latter? I admit, I have a hard time
>seeing why it would be considered exploitational. Or rather, I have a
>hard time seeing why _all_ pornographic material should be considered
>exploitational. For example, last night I spent a quite enjoyable half-
>hour studying the pictures in 'Playgirl'. And while quite a few of the
>pictures therein in my opinion fell rather flat, some of them struck
>me as quite erotic as well as aesthetically pleasing. (Of all things, what
>struck Jess most strongly was a set of _book shelves_ behind one
>of the models. *sigh* Brujah.)
The terrible thing about all of this is that the line between what is
pornographic and what isn't has become so blurred that one can't tell the
difference between what's pornographic and what's considered to be "art". I
look at some of my older advertising photos that I did for Marcus back in the
early '90's and what I was doing seems so tame compared to what they're doing
now.
>What I fail to understand is _why_ one should consider these models victims
>of exploitation. They were under no coercion, they were paid, and some
>of them seemed quite pleased with the opportunity to display their
>attributes. Admittedly, not all pornography falls into this category,
>but this was my precise point.
I can safely say that during my time as a model I wasn't subjected to this type
of exploitation. However, there are those among us who delight in the
opportunity to show off their natural attributes, and if it came their way, how
could they turn it down? If they were under no coercion to do so, and if they
were paid for it... I can't argue with it.
It's always good to hear from you, Radulescu... :)
>>Odette
>>Caitiff
>
>Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce exploiter
Charmaine MacLendon
Toreador
Lady In Charge of Chicago
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <1OBcLFA5...@kpople.demon.co.uk>,
> Istvan Batory <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >It is all quite dreadfully unfair. Why should supernatural creatures
>be
>> >bound by mundane laws of cause and effect?
>> >
>>
>> We get away with not dying, it seems only reasonable we obey other
>laws.
>>
>
>Maybe only until we learn how to bypass them. I have seen a vampire
>break the law of gravity, for example. It makes me wonder how many
>other mundane laws I could break myself, if I really put my mind to
>it ... I don't count moral imperatives like "Doing good is rewarded"
>and "Any evil you do returns to the wielder threefold", because it is
>clear to me that neither of these are the case.
>
gravity. As anyone who has ever seen me land will attest.
>So which laws do you obey?
>
Hospitality and Chivalry. Those of my Sect. Such mortal laws as are not
incompatible with my nature.
>Sympathise about the wizard. I am not a violent woman -- with some
>minor exceptions -- but if this being bled for experiments is a common
>fancy I could see my way to taking umbrage at any more of them I ever
>locate. It wouldn't be personal, or even Luddite; I'm not opposed to
>the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. And I would make sure to
>tell my victims this as I hung them upside down above an open fire.
>
>As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
>
No, of course not. I do not know if such behaviour is normal for
wizards. I suspect not, because I know of one Cainite who has a Wizard
for a brother, and she has not said anything. Of course wizards that
want Cainites for experiments are more likely to be encountered than
those who are not interested in us.
>> >> >
>> >> >> I knew a Brujah who carried a grudge against Romans for
>> >> >nearly
>> >> >> 1500 years!
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >How very depressing.
>> >> >
>> >> And dangerous.
>> >>
>> >
>> >For the poor modern-day Romans, you mean?
>> >
>> Twelfth Century Romans actually.
>
>So what made him change his mind after 1500 years?
>
A lack of actual Romans. He could not relate 12th Century Rome to the
place he hated. He did transfer a lot of his hate to Ventrue though.
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Odette
"SimonMagid2" <simon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010129161828...@nso-fs.aol.com...
>
> In article <954b0v$581$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Odette wrote:
>
>
> Oh, but a death threat is a quite convincing argument, my dear.
I suppose that it is effective. Perhaps that is the same as convincing. I
remain unconvinced ;)
> Death threats, and the carrying out of same, have settled endless
> amounts of disputes through the ages. If one does not desire to
> yield to such a threat, one must find a way to either survive the
> threat or eliminate it. Yielding to it is certainly one method, though
> not necessarily safe and certainly not satisfying; running away from
> it is another.
From my experience, no response is very satisfying in that respect. But if
you are more confident in your ability to successfully yield than in your
ability to successfully flee, the path is clear.
I was shocked that someone was willing to kill me for a minor imagined
insult. I like to think that I can be quite obvious when I want to insult
someone. It doesn't seem a very mature way to go about things. In fact, the
whole affair was quite distressing.
> Admittedly, my own favourite response is to come up with a better
> one myself. *brilliant smile*
How do you define 'better' here? You mean a more creative death threat, or a
more menacing one? If you have any advice on how to make effective death
threats to anyone you may ever meet, I for one would love to hear it!
I only wish I had the nerve to face vampires down like that. No, strike
that. I do have the nerve. It is just that bit more difficult when you know
that they can back up their threats and you are bluffing.
> >In any case, I don't personally believe that porn empowers women, which
> >is the (post-porn) feminist line.
>
> *shrug* Possibly not. But does it necessarily _demean_ women?
> Or for that matter, does it demean men? Would it not be at least
> as hypocritical to deny that the reproductive urge exists at all?
>
I thought porn had more to do with onanism than reproduction. I suppose one
could debate whether bending over and baring one's buttocks to the world is
demeaning or not. I think it is and I think it does; and I think that is
part of the appeal. I also think it's part of the selling strategy -- maybe
not in the soft porn top of the range magazines, but towards the dingier end
of the field, definitely.
> >I don't remember bookshelves ;) I will try to pay more attention to the
> >furniture if I flick to that channel again.
>
> It was in the February issue of 'Playgirl', dear friend, so save yourself
> the bother. I doubt such movies are crafted with the literate in mind.
But perhaps they are crafted with the keen amateur woodworker or interior
decorator in mind! Clearly, I shall have to locate Playgirl and apply
critical analyses.
> >All labour is exploited. That's what it means to be a salaryman or a
> >wage-slave. Workers sell their time and effort to employers in return
> >for money. Hence capitalism.
>
> Oh, you mean _that_ sort of exploitation. Yes, of course. But then, this
> is true of any political system that has ever been implemented -- from
> the early Egyptian monarchies through Thomas Aquinas and Adam Smith
> to our current-day so-called democracies.
True of vampiric societies as well?
> >I am smiling now. I don't need to play that game any more.
>
> Of course not. It still seems to be very much on your mind, however.
Yes. I suppose I should be beyond such things. I have felt very outside of
any sort of society, especially recently, and that isn't a bad thing but ...
I'm confused, now.
> Not that that is surprising; I often find myself wondering about mortal
> issues that do not really affect me any more, if for no other reason
> than intellectual fascination.
That would seem a more worthy motivation than death threats.
Odette
SimonMagid2
In article <ZtBnDBAx...@kpople.demon.co.uk>, Istvan wrote:
>>Maybe only until we learn how to bypass them. I have seen a vampire
>>break the law of gravity, for example. It makes me wonder how many
>>other mundane laws I could break myself, if I really put my mind to
>>it ... I don't count moral imperatives like "Doing good is rewarded"
>>and "Any evil you do returns to the wielder threefold", because it is
>>clear to me that neither of these are the case.
>I can fly, in a manner of speaking, but I have not broken the law of
>gravity. As anyone who has ever seen me land will attest.
To paraphrase Douglas Adams: if one wishes to get away with violating
the law of gravity, one must be careful not to be caught. *brilliant smile*
>>So which laws do you obey?
>Hospitality and Chivalry. Those of my Sect. Such mortal laws as are not
>incompatible with my nature.
In my case, I obey all laws as long as they do not happen to get
in my way.
>>Sympathise about the wizard. I am not a violent woman -- with some
>>minor exceptions -- but if this being bled for experiments is a common
>>fancy I could see my way to taking umbrage at any more of them I ever
>>locate. It wouldn't be personal, or even Luddite; I'm not opposed to
>>the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. And I would make sure to
>>tell my victims this as I hung them upside down above an open fire.
That is only the fair thing to do, dear friend. And I sympathise.
I despise the creatures that create Cainites simply in order to use
them as tools, and the above certainly qualifies.
>>As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
Oh, indeed not. But at times, circumstances conspire to force one's
hand. *sigh*
>No, of course not. I do not know if such behaviour is normal for
>wizards. I suspect not, because I know of one Cainite who has a Wizard
>for a brother, and she has not said anything. Of course wizards that
>want Cainites for experiments are more likely to be encountered than
>those who are not interested in us.
I have encountered such, a few times. I did not really care for them.
Particularly not the ones who sought to bribe me to create a Childe
for their experiments. They were quite secretive about the
whereabouts of their base of operations, so in order to find it,
I substituted myself for the Childe I promised them and moved
my heart to a different location before having myself staked
in the chest. By the time I arrived to their sanctum, my Packmates
tracked me via the telepathic signals I sent them, whereupon
we... closed the operation down, as it were.
And I did not even have to ask to be invited in. After all, they
carried me inside themselves. I counted that as an invitation.
*brilliant smile*
>>Odette
>>Caitiff
>
>--
>Istvan Batory
>Tzimisce
>
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce protester against Cainite testing
SimonMagid2
In article <QZ0e6.14465$YT3.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Odette"
wrote:
>>
>>
>> Oh, but a death threat is a quite convincing argument, my dear.
>I suppose that it is effective. Perhaps that is the same as convincing.
>I remain unconvinced ;)
Of course, my dear, but it might serve to convince _others_. *brilliant
smile*
>> Death threats, and the carrying out of same, have settled endless
>> amounts of disputes through the ages. If one does not desire to
>> yield to such a threat, one must find a way to either survive the
>> threat or eliminate it. Yielding to it is certainly one method, though
>> not necessarily safe and certainly not satisfying; running away from
>> it is another.
>
>From my experience, no response is very satisfying in that respect. But
>if
>you are more confident in your ability to successfully yield than in your
>ability to successfully flee, the path is clear.
It all depends on the situation, really. At times, some political or
social objective may be reached by yielding to a threat, such as
buying the necessary time to prepare a suitable retaliation. At other
times, running away may serve better; still others, meeting force
with force may be preferable.
>I was shocked that someone was willing to kill me for a minor imagined
>insult. I like to think that I can be quite obvious when I want to insult
>someone. It doesn't seem a very mature way to go about things. In fact,
>the whole affair was quite distressing.
Some Cainites have _no_ sense of proportion, really. *deep sigh*
>> Admittedly, my own favourite response is to come up with a better
>> one myself. *brilliant smile*
>
>How do you define 'better' here? You mean a more creative death threat,
>or a
>more menacing one?
Either, depending on what I deem will work best in the situation.
> If you have any advice on how to make effective death
>threats to anyone you may ever meet, I for one would love to hear it!
I fear I cannot, my dear. No universal rule exists; there are many
instances where one may actually score points by _not_ making
a counterthreat, for example. And when all is said and told, threats
really belong to the realm of politics, and I despise politics with
all my heart. Which has not saved me from becoming embroiled in
them, I must admit. *sigh*
>I only wish I had the nerve to face vampires down like that. No, strike
>that. I do have the nerve. It is just that bit more difficult when you
>know that they can back up their threats and you are bluffing.
True enough, my dear. But then, if one gets _away_ with one's bluff,
it feels so much more *satisfying*, doesn't it? *brilliant smile*
>> *shrug* Possibly not. But does it necessarily _demean_ women?
>> Or for that matter, does it demean men? Would it not be at least
>> as hypocritical to deny that the reproductive urge exists at all?
>>
>
>I thought porn had more to do with onanism than reproduction.
Yes, but onanism springs from the reproductive urge, dear friend.
>I suppose one
>could debate whether bending over and baring one's buttocks to the world
>is
>demeaning or not.
Oh, it is. At times, especially for the one they are being aimed at.
*brilliant smile*
> I think it is and I think it does; and I think that is
>part of the appeal. I also think it's part of the selling strategy -- maybe
>not in the soft porn top of the range magazines, but towards the dingier
>end of the field, definitely.
*shrug* I would not know. I have never involved myself with it.
>> It was in the February issue of 'Playgirl', dear friend, so save yourself
>> the bother. I doubt such movies are crafted with the literate in mind.
>But perhaps they are crafted with the keen amateur woodworker or interior
>decorator in mind! Clearly, I shall have to locate Playgirl and apply
>critical analyses.
Do share them when you have done so, please. *brilliant smile*
>> Oh, you mean _that_ sort of exploitation. Yes, of course. But then, this
>> is true of any political system that has ever been implemented -- from
>> the early Egyptian monarchies through Thomas Aquinas and Adam Smith
>> to our current-day so-called democracies.
>True of vampiric societies as well?
Absolutely, dear friend. Of _all_ societies.
>> >I am smiling now. I don't need to play that game any more.
>>
>> Of course not. It still seems to be very much on your mind, however.
>
>Yes. I suppose I should be beyond such things. I have felt very outside
>of
>any sort of society, especially recently, and that isn't a bad thing but
>...
>I'm confused, now.
Patience, dear friend. Eventually you will settle down, in your mind,
at least.
>> Not that that is surprising; I often find myself wondering about mortal
>> issues that do not really affect me any more, if for no other reason
>> than intellectual fascination.
>That would seem a more worthy motivation than death threats.
*shrug* Truth be told, I usually prefer using object lessons rather than
threats. The former at least have _some_ substance to them. And reduce
the need for the latter.
>
>Odette
>
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce object teacher
Istvan Batory
<simon...@aol.com> writes
>
>In article <ZtBnDBAx...@kpople.demon.co.uk>, Istvan wrote:
>
>>>Maybe only until we learn how to bypass them. I have seen a vampire
>>>break the law of gravity, for example. It makes me wonder how many
>>>other mundane laws I could break myself, if I really put my mind to
>>>it ... I don't count moral imperatives like "Doing good is rewarded"
>>>and "Any evil you do returns to the wielder threefold", because it is
>>>clear to me that neither of these are the case.
>
>>I can fly, in a manner of speaking, but I have not broken the law of
>>gravity. As anyone who has ever seen me land will attest.
>
>To paraphrase Douglas Adams: if one wishes to get away with violating
>the law of gravity, one must be careful not to be caught. *brilliant smile*
>
>>>So which laws do you obey?
>
>>Hospitality and Chivalry. Those of my Sect. Such mortal laws as are not
>>incompatible with my nature.
>
>In my case, I obey all laws as long as they do not happen to get
>in my way.
>
Not my philosophy, but then I am not you.
>>>Sympathise about the wizard. I am not a violent woman -- with some
>>>minor exceptions -- but if this being bled for experiments is a common
>>>fancy I could see my way to taking umbrage at any more of them I ever
>>>locate. It wouldn't be personal, or even Luddite; I'm not opposed to
>>>the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. And I would make sure to
>>>tell my victims this as I hung them upside down above an open fire.
>
>That is only the fair thing to do, dear friend. And I sympathise.
>I despise the creatures that create Cainites simply in order to use
>them as tools, and the above certainly qualifies.
>
most definitely. a despicable thing to do.
>>>As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
>
>Oh, indeed not. But at times, circumstances conspire to force one's
>hand. *sigh*
>
I, on the other hand, am.
>>No, of course not. I do not know if such behaviour is normal for
>>wizards. I suspect not, because I know of one Cainite who has a Wizard
>>for a brother, and she has not said anything. Of course wizards that
>>want Cainites for experiments are more likely to be encountered than
>>those who are not interested in us.
>
>I have encountered such, a few times. I did not really care for them.
>Particularly not the ones who sought to bribe me to create a Childe
>for their experiments. They were quite secretive about the
>whereabouts of their base of operations, so in order to find it,
>I substituted myself for the Childe I promised them and moved
>my heart to a different location before having myself staked
>in the chest. By the time I arrived to their sanctum, my Packmates
>tracked me via the telepathic signals I sent them, whereupon
>we... closed the operation down, as it were.
>
>And I did not even have to ask to be invited in. After all, they
>carried me inside themselves. I counted that as an invitation.
>*brilliant smile*
>
Oh very well done.
>>>Odette
>>>Caitiff
>>
>>--
>>Istvan Batory
>>Tzimisce
>>
>
>Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce protester against Cainite testing
--
SimonMagid2
In article <kge4wCAP...@kpople.demon.co.uk>, Istvan wrote:
>>In my case, I obey all laws as long as they do not happen to get
>>in my way.
>Not my philosophy, but then I am not you.
Of course not, Istvan, and you are entitled to obey all the laws
you wish to; I shall not attempt to prevent you from doing so. But
it is not in my nature to respect a law merely because it is a law.
I might respect the principles it _represents_, but in that case, I
would be obeying these principles no matter if they were set into
law or not.
>>>>As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
>>
>>Oh, indeed not. But at times, circumstances conspire to force one's
>>hand. *sigh*
>I, on the other hand, am.
Again, this is something I respect. Besides, I would not care to attempt
to change this; to force someone into pacifism strikes me as nonsensical,
and I have never really believed in passive resistance. *shrug*
By the way, I had not heard that you had assumed a female form again.
Might you share the specifics with me? I should be interested in
seeing the design.
>--
>Istvan Batory
>Tzimisce
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce Activist
Istvan Batory
<simon...@aol.com> writes
>
>In article <kge4wCAP...@kpople.demon.co.uk>, Istvan wrote:
>
>>>In my case, I obey all laws as long as they do not happen to get
>>>in my way.
>
>>Not my philosophy, but then I am not you.
>
>Of course not, Istvan, and you are entitled to obey all the laws
>you wish to; I shall not attempt to prevent you from doing so. But
>it is not in my nature to respect a law merely because it is a law.
>I might respect the principles it _represents_, but in that case, I
>would be obeying these principles no matter if they were set into
>law or not.
>
>>>>>As I said, I'm not a violent woman.
>>>
>>>Oh, indeed not. But at times, circumstances conspire to force one's
>>>hand. *sigh*
>
>>I, on the other hand, am.
>
>Again, this is something I respect. Besides, I would not care to attempt
>to change this; to force someone into pacifism strikes me as nonsensical,
>and I have never really believed in passive resistance. *shrug*
>
Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
need to appear to have one.
>By the way, I had not heard that you had assumed a female form again.
>Might you share the specifics with me? I should be interested in
>seeing the design.
>
*smile*
I have not shifted my form, certain persons rather prefer me as I am I
think. Well not permanently shifted, I do have a couple of 'stock'
female forms I can assume at need. both of people who died Centuries
ago, it keeps them alive in my thoughts.
Of course one of the ones who 'died' may well still be up and around,
but I doubt she would begrudge me the use of the face and form I
restored to her.
If you wish to see those, it could easily be arranged.
>>--
>>Istvan Batory
>>Tzimisce
>
>Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce Activist
--
Simon Magid
<ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Of course not, Istvan, and you are entitled to obey all the laws
>>you wish to; I shall not attempt to prevent you from doing so. But
>>it is not in my nature to respect a law merely because it is a law.
>>I might respect the principles it _represents_, but in that case, I
>>would be obeying these principles no matter if they were set into
>>law or not.
>Good enough.
*shrug* Does it matter if it is good or not? This is how I am; I make
no apologies for that.
>>Again, this is something I respect. Besides, I would not care to attempt
>>to change this; to force someone into pacifism strikes me as nonsensical,
>>and I have never really believed in passive resistance. *shrug*
>Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
>need to appear to have one.
Indeed. And frankly, I am far too impatient a soul to indulge in it.
Though in the latter of the cases you stated I might attempt to
_appear_ as if I were resisting passively, of course. Fair is fair,
after all, and if the enemy needs to appear just, I see no reason not
to keep her or him busy with maintenance work on said appearance.
*brilliant smile*
>>By the way, I had not heard that you had assumed a female form again.
>>Might you share the specifics with me? I should be interested in
>>seeing the design.
>*smile*
>I have not shifted my form, certain persons rather prefer me as I am I
>think. Well not permanently shifted, I do have a couple of 'stock'
>female forms I can assume at need. both of people who died Centuries
>ago, it keeps them alive in my thoughts.
I see. My pardon for misunderstanding you, then. Ahem.
> Of course one of the ones who 'died' may well still be up and around,
>but I doubt she would begrudge me the use of the face and form I
>restored to her.
> If you wish to see those, it could easily be arranged.
Thank you, dear friend, I should enjoy the opportunity.
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce who believes in maintaining appearances
Odette
Simon Magid <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:28:45 +0000, Istvan Batory
> <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
> >need to appear to have one.
>
> Indeed. And frankly, I am far too impatient a soul to indulge in it.
>
I wonder if that is really true. I have been thinking about this
passive resistance notion, recently.
Istvan Batory
>On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:28:45 +0000, Istvan Batory
><ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>Of course not, Istvan, and you are entitled to obey all the laws
>>>you wish to; I shall not attempt to prevent you from doing so. But
>>>it is not in my nature to respect a law merely because it is a law.
>>>I might respect the principles it _represents_, but in that case, I
>>>would be obeying these principles no matter if they were set into
>>>law or not.
>
>>Good enough.
>
>*shrug* Does it matter if it is good or not? This is how I am; I make
>no apologies for that.
>
>>>Again, this is something I respect. Besides, I would not care to attempt
>>>to change this; to force someone into pacifism strikes me as nonsensical,
>>>and I have never really believed in passive resistance. *shrug*
>
>>Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
>>need to appear to have one.
>
>Indeed. And frankly, I am far too impatient a soul to indulge in it.
>
Yes, me too. Added to which it goes against everything I was trained to
do and think.
>Though in the latter of the cases you stated I might attempt to
>_appear_ as if I were resisting passively, of course. Fair is fair,
>after all, and if the enemy needs to appear just, I see no reason not
>to keep her or him busy with maintenance work on said appearance.
>*brilliant smile*
>
There is that, but since when have our kind ever needed to appear just?
>>>By the way, I had not heard that you had assumed a female form again.
>>>Might you share the specifics with me? I should be interested in
>>>seeing the design.
>
>>*smile*
>>I have not shifted my form, certain persons rather prefer me as I am I
>>think. Well not permanently shifted, I do have a couple of 'stock'
>>female forms I can assume at need. both of people who died Centuries
>>ago, it keeps them alive in my thoughts.
>
>I see. My pardon for misunderstanding you, then. Ahem.
>
No problem, I was less than precise initially.
>> Of course one of the ones who 'died' may well still be up and around,
>>but I doubt she would begrudge me the use of the face and form I
>>restored to her.
>> If you wish to see those, it could easily be arranged.
>
>Thank you, dear friend, I should enjoy the opportunity.
>
I will enjoy bringing them out, so to speak, they are old friends.
>
>Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce who believes in maintaining appearances
--
Istvan Batory
deja.com> writes
>In article <43df8tkeu8k4sl70h...@4ax.com>,
> Simon Magid <tali...@inet.uni2.dk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:28:45 +0000, Istvan Batory
>> <ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
>> >need to appear to have one.
>>
>> Indeed. And frankly, I am far too impatient a soul to indulge in it.
>>
>
>I wonder if that is really true. I have been thinking about this
>passive resistance notion, recently.
>
apply whatever force is necessary to achieve his aim. Passive resistance
is really only useful if the enemy cannot resort to force.
I mean why are you thinking about it?
>
>Odette
>Caitiff
>
>--
> "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes,
> our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead."
> ---> G K Chesterton < ---
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com
>http://www.deja.com/
--
Simon Magid
<ke...@kpople.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Passive resistance only works if ones enemy has a conscience, or the
>>>need to appear to have one.
>>Indeed. And frankly, I am far too impatient a soul to indulge in it.
>Yes, me too. Added to which it goes against everything I was trained to
>do and think.
It _does_ rather go against the grain, does it not? I cannot imagine
very many vampires with the patience to employ it.
>>Though in the latter of the cases you stated I might attempt to
>>_appear_ as if I were resisting passively, of course. Fair is fair,
>>after all, and if the enemy needs to appear just, I see no reason not
>>to keep her or him busy with maintenance work on said appearance.
>>*brilliant smile*
>There is that, but since when have our kind ever needed to appear just?
Ever since it began to indulge in modern politics, Istvan. Not
uncommon either in cities where there is a large population of young
vampires or where Cainites attempt to control the mortal population.
Cristian Radulescu, Tzimisce
CBoland
>> It was in the February issue of 'Playgirl',
>>dear friend, so save yourself the bother.
>>I doubt such movies are crafted with the
>>literate in mind.
>But perhaps they are crafted with the keen
>amateur woodworker or interior
>decorator in mind! Clearly, I shall have to locate >Playgirl and apply
critical analyses.
Being the Brujah in question here, allow me to
clarify. <g> The issue in question had a feature
on the sexual appeal of older men. (Something
I can relate to, at the mo'.) Most so-called erotica
for women is just a sad joke, the models look like
they can't quite remember how to finish taking their
shirts off. (And why do all the female models look
like they're biting their nails?)
Anyway, one of the pictures in the afore-mentioned
mag had the older man (and a quite good-looking
fellow!) sitting behind his desk, fully dressed (with
just his shirt open a *little* bit more than usual),
with his architect's papers spread out on his desk.
Behind him stood a wide, full bookcase.
Maybe it's a Brujah thing, but intelligence is sexy.
>> >All labour is exploited. That's what it means
>> >to be a salaryman or a wage-slave. Workers
>> >sell their time and effort to employers in return
>> >for money. Hence capitalism.
>>
>> Oh, you mean _that_ sort of exploitation. Yes,
>>of course. But then, this is true of any political >>system that has ever
been implemented -- from
>> the early Egyptian monarchies through Thomas >>Aquinas and Adam Smith
>> to our current-day so-called democracies.
>
>True of vampiric societies as well?
Probably. We *are* building off of human models,
after all. Camarilla fuedalism, Sabbat theocracy.
All that changes is the coin of the realm.
Jesstyn Greer
Clan Brujah
"It's just neurotica..." --Rush
The River Cities. Learn to swim.
http://members.xoom.com/jdemorae/wod/riventry.html