How to make TR3 a better game?
Michelle
both were great games) and how people hope TR3 is more like, or better
than, TR1. My question is, what is it that TR1 had and TR2 didn't?
First let me say that the level design in all the TR series has been
superb. I love the use of heights and exposure and the intricate
passageways, not to mention the puzzles and the exploring that needs to
be done to solve them. It's difficult to wait to purchase TR3!
My criticism of TR2 as compared to the original is (1) that the plot was
very difficult to follow, since despite playing it straight through 3
times I couldn't understand any of the dialogue and it wasn't until I
read the plot outline on the net that I learned what was going on. (2)
That it didn't do more actual 'tomb raiding' and went instead to
locations that were familiar to us, such as an oil derrick, Venice, and
a ship (although 'The Deck' level was fabulous). And (3) that the
graphics didn't seem up to the times.
Thus to make TR3 'less like TR2 and more like TR1' I would try to
improve (1) and clear up the plot; the criticism (2) is to be expected,
since one can only play so many Egypt-type levels. Finally, (3) -- the
level of immersion, could be improved. From what I've seen in the first
level, it is far better than the first two games, but still has things
that really irk me.
First and foremost are the 2D walls. Quake, out over 2 years ago, had
none of the 2D aspects that TR3 still has. Gates that swing open that
are paper thin, that part with the moving double-sided spike wall that
has no thickness, and the canopy leaves that are flat as sheet metal
detract from the level of immersion. (Not to mention the awful bouncing
save crystals.)
The fixed block aspect of the world is still there also. When I look
across the pools of water in the demo, it looks so much like the same
pattern repeated over and over. I can clearly see the lines that define
the block size. I understand having textures repeat over and over, but
do the lines between them have to be so obvious? Also, real water
ripples follow the Poisson distribution. For example, wouldn't it be
better to have two different water textures and randomly fill the top of
the water with it, so that it breaks up the repetition?
The animation of the boulders should be improved, and would be easy to
do as they appear to be additional models. As has been mentioned, having
them roll up the upslope and rock back and forth a little, or even break
up (such as when Lara blows up an enemy), with corresponding sound
effects, would be a big improvement. Even not having them perfectly
spherical would help. The instantaneous movement of things, such as
water or machinery when a lever is pulled, is another aspect of TR2 that
I hope isn't included in TR3.
The slope that Lara initially slides down should be broken up. Having it
perfectly flat is strange. Considering the way the ground is varied
throughout the rest of the level I think this would be easy to do and
would help a lot. Also, why is the cross on the medi-packs green?
Finally, the water ripples when Lara is in the water should be toned
down a little. Having less of them so that it is not a distraction but a
subtle improvement would be good. Real water is only white when it is
frothy, so muting the color a little would help. I was glad to see the
3D ladder right before the end to the level! But it looks a little
plain. I would alter the rung widths a little (not the spacing) and give
it a more wood-like texture.
The animal AI looks really great! As does the new torch model. (Not to
mention the flares and gun smoke, and fog) The colored lighting makes a
big difference, too!
I play Tomb Raider as a means to escape, to live out my dreams of being
an adventurer. The authenticity of the world is something that is
important to maintain the illusion. The above suggestions would help
immensely, and I feel would be rather simple to implement, even before
the release. (I'd certainly be willing to wait an extra week or so if
these could be done). If TR3 gained these improvements it would be a
true world in my mind, and much less remind me that it's just a computer
simulation.
Michelle
Jeff Price
Michelle wrote in message <3648B3D8...@whatsoever.com>...
Chris Knapp
Michelle wrote:
> There's been a lot of talk of how TR1 was much better than TR2 (while
> both were great games) and how people hope TR3 is more like, or better
> than, TR1. My question is, what is it that TR1 had and TR2 didn't?
Atmosphere and exploration. TR 2 was too heavy on combat IMHO. The way I
see it, with all the wanton killing in TR2, they might as well have gone out
and got a hard assed space marine from Quake or something instead. The
combat and action is meant to jolt and suprise you while you are trying to
complete a difficult puzzle. In TR1 it was used sparingly. Unfortunatly
TR2 was a relative bllodbath...
Also the locations were better. I got claustrophobic down in that
meaningless wreck. Vast egyptian ruins I think invoke a different feel,
they have meaning. A dirty old ship is just a neat setting...
>
>
> First let me say that the level design in all the TR series has been
> superb. I love the use of heights and exposure and the intricate
> passageways, not to mention the puzzles and the exploring that needs to
> be done to solve them. It's difficult to wait to purchase TR3!
Thats for sure. Counting the days:)
>
>
> My criticism of TR2 as compared to the original is (1) that the plot was
> very difficult to follow, since despite playing it straight through 3
> times I couldn't understand any of the dialogue and it wasn't until I
> read the plot outline on the net that I learned what was going on.
Agree totally. It was lost on me as well.
> (2)
> That it didn't do more actual 'tomb raiding' and went instead to
> locations that were familiar to us, such as an oil derrick, Venice, and
> a ship (although 'The Deck' level was fabulous). And (3) that the
> graphics didn't seem up to the times.
Agree again.
Use of the Unreal engine or Quake would be a big step. If we ever get
tomb4, they had better do a *major* revamp or the series is done. Tomb1
when it came out had what was considered thewn to be amazing graphics. I
would love to see them pull it off again.
>
>
> The slope that Lara initially slides down should be broken up. Having it
> perfectly flat is strange. Considering the way the ground is varied
> throughout the rest of the level I think this would be easy to do and
> would help a lot. Also, why is the cross on the medi-packs green?
> Finally, the water ripples when Lara is in the water should be toned
> down a little. Having less of them so that it is not a distraction but a
> subtle improvement would be good. Real water is only white when it is
> frothy, so muting the color a little would help. I was glad to see the
> 3D ladder right before the end to the level! But it looks a little
> plain. I would alter the rung widths a little (not the spacing) and give
> it a more wood-like texture.
>
> The animal AI looks really great! As does the new torch model. (Not to
> mention the flares and gun smoke, and fog) The colored lighting makes a
> big difference, too!
>
> I play Tomb Raider as a means to escape, to live out my dreams of being
> an adventurer. The authenticity of the world is something that is
> important to maintain the illusion. The above suggestions would help
> immensely, and I feel would be rather simple to implement, even before
> the release. (I'd certainly be willing to wait an extra week or so if
> these could be done). If TR3 gained these improvements it would be a
> true world in my mind, and much less remind me that it's just a computer
> simulation.
Well said, Michelle!
Chris
>
>
> Michelle
snark^
warbled on about "How to make TR3 a better game?" in a.g.t <<=
> There's been a lot of talk of how TR1 was much better than TR2 (while
> both were great games) and how people hope TR3 is more like, or better
> than, TR1. My question is, what is it that TR1 had and TR2 didn't?
......... <snip> .........
> My criticism of TR2 as compared to the original is (1) that the plot was
> very difficult to follow, since despite playing it straight through 3
> times I couldn't understand any of the dialogue and it wasn't until I
> read the plot outline on the net that I learned what was going on. (2)
I understood the plot as I went along - it was really short on "Why?" at the
beginning but I thought it was reasonably straight forward. That she now
gets captured every episode is rather reminiscent of one certian James Bond,
esquire, but is liveable.
> That it didn't do more actual 'tomb raiding' and went instead to
> locations that were familiar to us, such as an oil derrick, Venice, and
> a ship (although 'The Deck' level was fabulous). And (3) that the
> graphics didn't seem up to the times.
I preferred TR2 - the levels stand out more for me. TR1 got a little
repetitive too fast.
> First and foremost are the 2D walls. Quake, out over 2 years ago, had
> none of the 2D aspects that TR3 still has. Gates that swing open that
> are paper thin, that part with the moving double-sided spike wall that
> has no thickness, and the canopy leaves that are flat as sheet metal
Core are supposedly bulding a completely new 3d game engine for TR4 - I'd
expect they couldn't get away with recycling the same engine a forth time
(even if Eidos get antsy over approaching Crimble deadlines again next
year).
> detract from the level of immersion. (Not to mention the awful bouncing
> save crystals.)
Leave the bouncy savegame crystals alone! It's Bugsie the Corner bug who
needs hanging from the highest yard-arm! he contains to stain our lives
with his annoying "split the level in twain" antics. DEATH to Bugsie!
> The fixed block aspect of the world is still there also. When I look
> across the pools of water in the demo, it looks so much like the same
> pattern repeated over and over. I can clearly see the lines that define
> the block size. I understand having textures repeat over and over, but
> do the lines between them have to be so obvious? Also, real water
> ripples follow the Poisson distribution. For example, wouldn't it be
> better to have two different water textures and randomly fill the top of
> the water with it, so that it breaks up the repetition?
The Lego Block(tm) look has to go next time around - Quake's curving
corridors and gentle slopes look superb. The problem comes I suppose from
then trying to transpose a 3rd person effect on such irregular shapes.
It'll be a complete b*st*rd trying to stop Lara from disappearing into odd
angled walls. Not to mention having both her feet on the floor when she's
perpendicular to a slope - you'd have to model her so that she bends one leg
when trying to stay upright. Hey ho, in the next version we go....
What it needs in order to complete the effect is realistic physics. But
keep the happy bouncing blue crystals.... ;D
> The animation of the boulders should be improved, and would be easy to
> do as they appear to be additional models. As has been mentioned, having
> them roll up the upslope and rock back and forth a little, or even break
> up (such as when Lara blows up an enemy), with corresponding sound
File this with exploding barrels, useable scenery (rather than being just
fancy looking wall textures), laptops, etc.
> frothy, so muting the color a little would help. I was glad to see the
> 3D ladder right before the end to the level! But it looks a little
> plain. I would alter the rung widths a little (not the spacing) and give
> it a more wood-like texture.
I thought the 3d ladder looked quite bad - she spent half the climb immersed
in one of the stanchions.
> The animal AI looks really great! As does the new torch model. (Not to
> mention the flares and gun smoke, and fog) The colored lighting makes a
> big difference, too!
I like all this too, especially the coloured lighting. In fact I'd like to
see more.... Mike, could you get them to roll out the Area51 demo for the
PC please?..... pretty please?....
> I play Tomb Raider as a means to escape, to live out my dreams of being
> an adventurer. The authenticity of the world is something that is
> important to maintain the illusion. The above suggestions would help
> immensely, and I feel would be rather simple to implement, even before
> the release. (I'd certainly be willing to wait an extra week or so if
> these could be done). If TR3 gained these improvements it would be a
> true world in my mind, and much less remind me that it's just a computer
> simulation.
Maybe if they do implement a completely realistic 3D game that holds to the
laws of physics then it ought to be called "TR4: Life with Lara Croft (as
narrated by Richard Attenborough)."
Now here it is again - what you've all been dreading! The hastily re-named
"Thing We'd Like To See In TR4" list! Shudder! Scream! It's all below
anyway....
Things We'd Like To See in TR3 (TWITS list).
--------------------------------------------
x Gameplay/Appearance
o Smaller Lara graphic/larger screen scale so we can have a wide-screen
view of what's happening. Maybe have a zoom in/out function.
o Multiplayer option/net support (more characters other than Lara would
be needed however). Suggestions for other characters? Sara Pezzini,
the cast of Dangergirl, Duck Nookem, ....
o Multiple settings for things like pickups, trap lethality, targetting
control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly any"
o Remove the unlimited ammo pistols and give her a knife/hand to hand
weapon as the last resort weapon.
o A reload key (me want!) to slow down the unending hail of bullets; a
key you must hit in order to get her to reload. Plus make reloading
take longer.
x The Opposition
o Tougher puzzles/less Blastable Nasties.
o More intelligent enemies who can heal over time/use medkits/sound
alarms/shoot straight.
o More RPGish interaction with other characters in the game (as opposed
to just shooting them!). Multiple options such as Trade/Talk/Blow His
Bones Away when dealing with other characters in the game.
x Changes to Level Design
o More interaction with the scenery. Computers that can be accessed,
walls that can be blown open, moveable chairs/tables etc.
o Less linear plotting in the level design (a more openly explorable
area as opposed to just having one test after another). Have more
than one way to complete a level with the plot *changing* depending
on Lara's actions.
o More rounded, less 'blocky' level construction - curving corridors,
domes - just please make the square block design less obvious at least.
Make the game engine subject to real physics - boulders that roll up
reverse slopes before seetling at the lowest point; have Lara able to
crawl up slopes she can't walk up; make sure she keeps both fet on the
ground at all times....
o Release a level editor/designer.
x Equipment
o New weapons and equipment - limited use flamethrower; rope and
grappling hook (A MUST!!); spikey gauntlets; night vision goggles; bow
and arrows; bulletproof vest (for those extra tough shootouts); scuba
gear; lockpicks; claymore mines (to be used in violation of any recent
international ban); some various disguises; knife; sharp sticks.
o New vehicles/rides: horseback riding, motorcycle, hanglider, parachute,
jetski, a Jaguar XKR/Lotus Esprit/MG F.
x Changes to Lara:
o Freestyle swimming movement (maybe tied to the Sprint button?) - her
current slow breaststroke just isn't fast enough at anymore.
o Unarmed combat moves (a few judo throws/kicks perhaps). Hand to hand
combat with swords, knives, bottles, sharp sticks....
o Give Lara an ability to hold a flare and a single pistol at same time
(make her throw away the flare before she pulls the second pistol).
o Have Lara show injuries from any damage she takes (limping/broken
arm).
o Limit the amount of space in Lara's backpack to around eight items
only. Make the player choose what equipment she takes along.
o Jeeves the butler to tag along as Lara's sidekick (this last is only
for the Jeeves addicted)....
--
alt.games.tombraider micro-UFAQ (the Ultra Frequently Asked Questions):
1) There is no nude code, so please don't bother asking; 2) Please try the
full FAQ for technical and walkthrough help, it's available online at both:
http://if.bidmc.harvard.edu/~ichou/archives/tomb/misc/questions.html, and
http://www.tombraiders.com; 3) TR3 is due late November 1998, the demo is
out now; 4) Unplug The Joystick(tm); 5) Collecting the secrets gets you
extra ammo/medkits; 6) It's Lara, Not Laura! (ILNL!); 7) Still no nude
code - sorry. 8) DEATH TO BUGSIE!
stiletto
snark^ wrote in message <36656c5c...@enews.newsguy.com>...
<snip>
>Now here it is again - what you've all been dreading! The hastily re-named
>"Thing We'd Like To See In TR4" list! Shudder! Scream! It's all below
>anyway....
>
>
>Things We'd Like To See in TR3 (TWITS list).
>--------------------------------------------
>
>x Gameplay/Appearance
>
>o Smaller Lara graphic/larger screen scale so we can have a wide-screen
> view of what's happening. Maybe have a zoom in/out function.
agreed.
>o Multiplayer option/net support (more characters other than Lara would
> be needed however). Suggestions for other characters? Sara Pezzini,
> the cast of Dangergirl, Duck Nookem, ....
would be nice.
>o Multiple settings for things like pickups, trap lethality, targetting
> control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly any"
No real need for that. We can already make the game as hard as we want by
not using sertain objects.
>o Remove the unlimited ammo pistols and give her a knife/hand to hand
> weapon as the last resort weapon.
I second that.
>o A reload key (me want!) to slow down the unending hail of bullets; a
> key you must hit in order to get her to reload. Plus make reloading
> take longer.
Please no, I only use pistols. Don't make it too hard for me.
>x The Opposition
>
>o Tougher puzzles/less Blastable Nasties.
Yes
>o More intelligent enemies who can heal over time/use medkits/sound
> alarms/shoot straight.
>
>o More RPGish interaction with other characters in the game (as opposed
> to just shooting them!). Multiple options such as Trade/Talk/Blow His
> Bones Away when dealing with other characters in the game.
Woul be nice.
>x Changes to Level Design
>
>o More interaction with the scenery. Computers that can be accessed,
> walls that can be blown open, moveable chairs/tables etc.
>
>o Less linear plotting in the level design (a more openly explorable
> area as opposed to just having one test after another) Have more
> than one way to complete a level with the plot *changing* depending
> on Lara's actions.
There is more then one way to do the demo-level (even without Bugsies help),
multiple plot would be nice.
>o More rounded, less 'blocky' level construction - curving corridors,
> domes - just please make the square block design less obvious at least.
> Make the game engine subject to real physics - boulders that roll up
> reverse slopes before seetling at the lowest point; have Lara able to
> crawl up slopes she can't walk up; make sure she keeps both fet on the
> ground at all times....
>
>o Release a level editor/designer.
>
>
>x Equipment
>
>o New weapons and equipment - limited use flamethrower; rope and
> grappling hook (A MUST!!); spikey gauntlets; night vision goggles; bow
> and arrows; bulletproof vest (for those extra tough shootouts); scuba
> gear; lockpicks; claymore mines (to be used in violation of any recent
> international ban); some various disguises; knife; sharp sticks.
>
>o New vehicles/rides: horseback riding, motorcycle, hanglider, parachute,
> jetski, a Jaguar XKR/Lotus Esprit/MG F.
Aston Martin DB7 (I love that car)
>
>x Changes to Lara:
>
>o Freestyle swimming movement (maybe tied to the Sprint button?) - her
> current slow breaststroke just isn't fast enough at anymore.
>
>o Unarmed combat moves (a few judo throws/kicks perhaps). Hand to hand
> combat with swords, knives, bottles, sharp sticks....
There's no such thing as a judo-kick. You're not allowed to kick in judo.
>
>o Give Lara an ability to hold a flare and a single pistol at same time
> (make her throw away the flare before she pulls the second pistol).
>
>o Have Lara show injuries from any damage she takes (limping/broken
> arm).
What happens if Lara breaks her arm in the 1st. level, do we then have to
play the rest of the game with that broken arm?
>
>o Limit the amount of space in Lara's backpack to around eight items
> only. Make the player choose what equipment she takes along.
>
>o Jeeves the butler to tag along as Lara's sidekick (this last is only
> for the Jeeves addicted)....
>
Stay sharp,
-Stiletto-
e-mail: stil...@worldonline.nl
ICQ# 14718369
Stiletto's Totally Serious Tombraider-Site
(under construction)
http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~stiletto
Don't listen to those rumours about Lara and me, we're just good friends.
KEEP BUGSIE ALIVE!!!!!
Harvey W. Harbicht (Stupid Lara Tricks)
jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com says...
> Leave the bouncy savegame crystals alone! It's Bugsie the Corner bug who
> needs hanging from the highest yard-arm! he contains to stain our lives
> with his annoying "split the level in twain" antics. DEATH to Bugsie!
Infidel!
Bugsie is the very HEART of Tomb Raider. Without him TR would be just
another A/A game. With him it becomes an exciting adventure into fun fun
fun.
Alex, HELP! We saved Jeeves, now they want to kill Bugsie!
... Join The Bugsie Jihad!
Harvey W. Harbicht (Stupid Lara Tricks)
> for the Jeeves addicted)....
>
He could be in charge of the Poison Gas Weapon. In addition to medpacks
and ammo Lara would have to pick up cans of beans and saurkraut packages.
I do like the idea of extra helpers. How many people remember Gobliins
1,2 and 3? There were 2 or more characters working together and you had
to have one guy pull a lever for example while the other guy caught the
little bird that flew out of the hole. Also there were things that only
one of the group was able to do. The others would just say "No no no" or
shrug their shoulders and stand there looking at you.
You could have Jeeves fall on the sharpend stakes and Lara could walk
over his body to get across the trap. :)
... Join the Bugsie Jihad!
Harvey W. Harbicht (Stupid Lara Tricks)
ma...@bushhat.com says...
> >o Have Lara show injuries from any damage she takes (limping/broken
> > arm).
>
> play the rest of the game with that broken arm?
> >
>
>
that would be interesting. It would enable the bad guys to rebuild the
traps or get further away with the treasure. All the doors you opened
would close again and the monkeys would have stolen all the keys.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarg!
snark^
warbled on about "Wishlist" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
> I obfuscated:
> >o Smaller Lara graphic/larger screen scale so we can have a wide-screen
> > view of what's happening. Maybe have a zoom in/out function.
>
> agreed.
I was thinking of a rotate function as well - with the zoom in/out we'd
really allow us to set up our own cinematic views. Might take away some of
the exploration from the game play however, allowing you to see things Lara
ordinarily couldn't.
> >o Multiple settings for things like pickups, trap lethality, targetting
> > control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly any"
>
> No real need for that. We can already make the game as hard as we want by
> not using sertain objects.
Lots of different people complain about the same levels being either too
easy or to hard so I think some sort of setting is needed -and rather than
just a have a set difficulty level for the whole game we could do it
individually for the various aspects of gameplay.
For Example:
Cinematic Views?[1] On/Off
Lara's help?[2] On/Off
Save games: Anytime/Bouncy blue crystal thingies
Medkits: By the ton/Lots/Very few
Ammo pickups: Major ammo dumps/A clip or two/Empty cases
Blastable nasties: Thousands/Hundreds/Singular
The experts among us could max out on all the above of course while the
newbies crawl along at their own pace.
[1] Have the option to remove the special cinematic views altogether. This
would make it much harder to find out what the switch you pulled actually
does....
[2] Have Lara drop vocal hints occasionally: "Have you looked everywhere
yet?", or "That window doesn't look bulletproof to me..."
> >o Remove the unlimited ammo pistols and give her a knife/hand to hand
> > weapon as the last resort weapon.
>
> I second that.
I third it. Wait, hold on a minute....
> >o A reload key (me want!) to slow down the unending hail of bullets; a
> > key you must hit in order to get her to reload. Plus make reloading
> > take longer.
>
> Please no, I only use pistols. Don't make it too hard for me.
You used pistols only on the Xian Guards? Wow.... :)
> >o Less linear plotting in the level design (a more openly explorable
> > area as opposed to just having one test after another) Have more
> > than one way to complete a level with the plot *changing* depending
> > on Lara's actions.
>
> There is more then one way to do the demo-level (even without Bugsies help),
> multiple plot would be nice.
I was specifically thinking of Bladerunner and I-War when I wrote that bit.
Both games offer multiple endings and many ways of reaching them.
> >o New weapons and equipment - limited use flamethrower; rope and
> > grappling hook (A MUST!!); spikey gauntlets; night vision goggles; bow
> > and arrows; bulletproof vest (for those extra tough shootouts); scuba
> > gear; lockpicks; claymore mines (to be used in violation of any recent
> > international ban); some various disguises; knife; sharp sticks.
+ Ice pick, shuriken, electric can opener....
> >o New vehicles/rides: horseback riding, motorcycle, hanglider, parachute,
> > jetski, a Jaguar XKR/Lotus Esprit/MG F.
>
> Aston Martin DB7 (I love that car)
Added! (Being a Bond fan I can't think how I missed it to begin with....).
> >o Unarmed combat moves (a few judo throws/kicks perhaps). Hand to hand
> > combat with swords, knives, bottles, sharp sticks....
>
> There's no such thing as a judo-kick. You're not allowed to kick in judo.
I know. Just worded it wrongly. We've seen a pic of Lara in a martial arts
robe, so presumably she can bend other human beings around more than just
her finger.
Recently found a picture of her in Polo gear too - made me think of St.
Trinians on horseback for some reason..... %]
> >o Have Lara show injuries from any damage she takes (limping/broken
> > arm).
>
> What happens if Lara breaks her arm in the 1st. level, do we then have to
> play the rest of the game with that broken arm?
Medkits would heal it of course (they mysteriously make bullet wounds
disappear in seconds as it is) but it'd cost you a fair few. :)
> >o Limit the amount of space in Lara's backpack to around eight items
> > only. Make the player choose what equipment she takes along.
This one needs re-stressing I think. With a limited inventory, selecting
your equipment would become a primary aspect of the gameplay; do you take
the scuba gear or the extra 50,000 rounds of ammo?; take the Necessary
Maguffin or the comfy thermal socks?
And a new one:
o Differing properties for every terrain type - especially regards Lara's
movement. Slopes that are normally too steep for her to walk or run on
might be accessible by crawling up them. She should be also able to
climb steep slopes (of certain terrain types) as well as the vertical
surfaces she can do now. Or sheer ice surfaces could only be climbed
with the right equipment (ice pick).
--
"Well, of COURSE I did it in cold blood, you idiot!.. I'm a reptile!"
GameGenie
I mostly used the pistols on the guards of the floating islands. As soon as
they came alive all you needed to do was get a fair distance back, draw
pistols and then hold down action. They were so slow at flying that the
pistols were the obvious choice as you didn't waste any ammo.
stiletto
GameGenie wrote in message <72fh96$ro5$1...@mendelevium.btinternet.com>...
>>You used pistols only on the Xian Guards? Wow.... :)
>
as
>they came alive all you needed to do was get a fair distance back, draw
>pistols and then hold down action. They were so slow at flying that the
>pistols were the obvious choice as you didn't waste any ammo.
>
can't get to (well, most of them).
The guards in the Temple of Xian can all be killed from a safe place.
The only stone guards that gave me any real problems were the ones in the
beginning of the Dragon's Lair.
Took me a long time to find a way to get them without taking damage.
No safe places there, you just have to outmove them.
Eep²
> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "stiletto"
> warbled on about "Wishlist" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>
> > I obfuscated:
> > >o Smaller Lara graphic/larger screen scale so we can have a wide-screen
> > > view of what's happening. Maybe have a zoom in/out function.
> >
> > agreed.
>
> I was thinking of a rotate function as well - with the zoom in/out we'd
> really allow us to set up our own cinematic views. Might take away some of
> the exploration from the game play however, allowing you to see things Lara
> ordinarily couldn't.
I would rather have the camera pan from Lara's actual perspective instead of behind her. In real life we don't have cameras that pan around behind us, do we? No. But if the pan camera button could control her first-person perspective view, I think it would be more realistic. And for the zooming she could use binoculars. The realism is not tainted this way. Realism is the key...
> > >o Multiple settings for things like pickups, trap lethality, targetting
> > > control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly any"
> >
> > No real need for that. We can already make the game as hard as we want by
> > not using sertain objects.
>
> Lots of different people complain about the same levels being either too
> easy or to hard so I think some sort of setting is needed -and rather than
> just a have a set difficulty level for the whole game we could do it
> individually for the various aspects of gameplay.
>
> For Example:
>
> Blastable nasties: Thousands/Hundreds/Singular
And none. I'd rather not have to kill and would rather throw flares and shoot off to the side of animals/enemies before killing them, although human enemies might need more persuasion: cunning, sneakiness, distraction (throwing rocks, sticks/twigs, etc), etc.
> [2] Have Lara drop vocal hints occasionally: "Have you looked everywhere
> yet?", or "That window doesn't look bulletproof to me..."
More like "thought hints", so her talking to herself doesn't give herself away if she happens to be sneaking around... And it shouldn't be so Lara talks TO the player but that she talks to HERSELF. Realism again...
> o Differing properties for every terrain type - especially regards Lara's
> movement. Slopes that are normally too steep for her to walk or run on
> might be accessible by crawling up them. She should be also able to
> climb steep slopes (of certain terrain types) as well as the vertical
> surfaces she can do now. Or sheer ice surfaces could only be climbed
> with the right equipment (ice pick).
This whole slope thing is just silly. Ever heard of rock climbing? Lara should be able to scale most surfaces with ease, considering she can jump around well enough. Only extreme vertical, flat slopes/walls would she probably have a problem with, but then witha grappling hook, rope, or whatever, they would be no problem either. Realism again...
Mark A
>
> Realism is the key...
>
> Realism again...
Realism, shmealism.
It's a game, not a documentary for God's sake.
Regards
Mark
Eep²
Mark A
>
> Ever heard of a holodeck? That's where "games" are headed, you
Well, when we get holodecks (in about four centuries) then maybe you can
complain about TR. Till then I suggest you either accept it and enjoy
it for what it is, or else don't buy it and quit whining about what it
ain't.
Regards
Mark
snark^
warbled on about "Re: Wishlist" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
> snark^ wrote:
> I would rather have the camera pan from Lara's actual perspective instead
> of behind her. In real life we don't have cameras that pan around behind us,
> do we? No. But if the pan camera button could control her first-person
> perspective view, I think it would be more realistic. And for the zooming
> she could use binoculars. The realism is not tainted this way. Realism is
> the key...
The binoculars are a good idea (now purloined for the list). My brother
agrees with you about the Look function occuring in 1st person perspective.
It would work better/be more consistant with the binoculars view.
> > [2] Have Lara drop vocal hints occasionally: "Have you looked everywhere
> > yet?", or "That window doesn't look bulletproof to me..."
>
> More like "thought hints", so her talking to herself doesn't give herself
> away if she happens to be sneaking around... And it shouldn't be so Lara
> talks TO the player but that she talks to HERSELF. Realism again...
"I think that glass looks rather breakable."
"The back of his skull looks highly susceptible to this large heavy bar I'm
carrying."
--
"He's quite harmless, just don't show any fear, Squid can sense fear."
Eep²
You don't like my messages? Filter me; it's real simple.
Mark A
>
> You don't like my messages? Filter me; it's real simple.
Filtering is for abject cowards. If you're afraid of a few words, or a
differing opinion, you shouldn't be wasting your time reading Usenet.
Regards
Mark
Eep²
Climbman
off sometimes, but any putz can go through life not upseting anybody. At least you get people to respond....
shows them they can care enough about something to actaully think and voice opinions, which what ng's are
for.
Mark A
>
> I'm hardly afraid of responses to my posts. Why do you think I post
> the way I do in the first place? Duh.
So why do you keep saying you're consigning various people to your
filters? Act of a wuss I'd say, unless you're lying about the filtering
of course.
Regards
Mark
Eep²
Abbas Paliwala
Eep² wrote in message <364B6E49...@tnlc.com>...
>snark^ wrote:
>
>> =>> The runes were cast, the portents thundered and then "stiletto"
>> warbled on about "Wishlist" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
>>
>> > I obfuscated:
>> > >o Smaller Lara graphic/larger screen scale so we can have a
wide-screen
>> > > view of what's happening. Maybe have a zoom in/out function.
>> >
>> > agreed.
>>
>> I was thinking of a rotate function as well - with the zoom in/out we'd
>> really allow us to set up our own cinematic views. Might take away some
of
>> the exploration from the game play however, allowing you to see things
Lara
>> ordinarily couldn't.
>
of behind her. In real life we don't have cameras that pan around behind us,
do we? No. But if the pan camera button could control her first-person
perspective view, I think it would be more realistic. And for the zooming
she could use binoculars. The realism is not tainted this way. Realism is
the key...
You talk a lot about realism, but remember that this is just a game. Too
much realism can spoils the fun. Why do we play games in the first place?
to get away from "reality" ???
Also, I don't like the first person perspective at all. When Tomb Raider
first came out, one of the first things which caught may eyes was the unique
third person perspective with a perfect screen update pace, i.e. not too
fast, not too slow.
>
>> > >o Multiple settings for things like pickups, trap lethality,
targetting
>> > > control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly
any"
>> >
>> > No real need for that. We can already make the game as hard as we want
by
>> > not using sertain objects.
>>
>> Lots of different people complain about the same levels being either too
>> easy or to hard so I think some sort of setting is needed -and rather
than
>> just a have a set difficulty level for the whole game we could do it
>> individually for the various aspects of gameplay.
>>
>> For Example:
>>
>> Blastable nasties: Thousands/Hundreds/Singular
>
>And none. I'd rather not have to kill and would rather throw flares and
shoot off to the side of animals/enemies before killing them, although human
enemies might need more persuasion: cunning, sneakiness, distraction
(throwing rocks, sticks/twigs, etc), etc.
>
>> [2] Have Lara drop vocal hints occasionally: "Have you looked everywhere
>> yet?", or "That window doesn't look bulletproof to me..."
>
>More like "thought hints", so her talking to herself doesn't give herself
away if she happens to be sneaking around... And it shouldn't be so Lara
talks TO the player but that she talks to HERSELF. Realism again...
>
>> o Differing properties for every terrain type - especially regards
Lara's
>> movement. Slopes that are normally too steep for her to walk or run
on
>> might be accessible by crawling up them. She should be also able to
>> climb steep slopes (of certain terrain types) as well as the vertical
>> surfaces she can do now. Or sheer ice surfaces could only be climbed
>> with the right equipment (ice pick).
>
Phoenix928
>away if she happens to be sneaking around... And it shouldn't be so Lara
>talks TO the player but that she talks to HERSELF. Realism again...
Um, but she already talks to the player on the training courses.... Anyway, I
don't like the vocal hints idea for the main game....best to have an on/off
switch oif it was implemented;))
>>> > > control. Example: "Medkits - 1) Lots'N'lots, 2) A few, 3) hardly
>any"
>>> >
>>> > No real need for that. We can already make the game as hard as we want
>by
>>> > not using sertain objects.
>>>
Yeah, but it would be nice not to have to think "oh, wont pick that up....will
pick that up...." etc:)
Clare
-=X=-
-------------------------------------------------------------
So many stupid people. So few meteors.
-------------------------------------------------------------
****remove "nospam" from email addy to reply****
Ansjovis
Hmmmm ....
[camera]
>I would rather have the camera pan from Lara's actual perspective instead
of
>behind her. In real life we don't have cameras that pan around behind us,
do we?
>No. But if the pan camera button could control her first-person perspective
view, I
>think it would be more realistic. And for the zooming she could use
binoculars.
>The realism is not tainted this way. Realism is the key...
That's all true, but a game isn't supposed to be all-the-way realistic. And
besides, go play a game of Quake and then jump from platform to platform and
then imagine that going along with grabbing ledges, diagonal jumps, shooting
at the same time... That's only possible with a 3rd person-view. But I do
think the camera should be more intelligent, so whe don't run around corners
not knowing what's coming up. Maybe there should be an option to choose
multiple camera-views, like in racing games, and a 1st person view included
ofcourse.
[how many enemies, how to deal with them]
>And none. I'd rather not have to kill and would rather throw flares and
shoot off to
>the side of animals/enemies before killing them, although human enemies
might
>need more persuasion: cunning, sneakiness, distraction (throwing rocks,
>sticks/twigs, etc), etc.
Completely true, couldn't agree more... but too bad that would take a huge
amount of moves and programming, and AI that would blow up your processor in
a nanosecond.
[lara vocal-hints]
>More like "thought hints", so her talking to herself doesn't give herself
away if she
>happens to be sneaking around... And it shouldn't be so Lara talks TO the
player
>but that she talks to HERSELF. Realism again...
Could work as well... with a sort of Wonder Years voice over. And what I'd
like to see is wisecracks when killing enemies. I missed that especially in
Natla's Mines on TR1. These three guys yelling at Lara, and she didn't yell
back. That's just not fun!
[different methods of movemont on different terrain]
>This whole slope thing is just silly. Ever heard of rock climbing? Lara
should be
>able to scale most surfaces with ease, considering she can jump around well
>enough. Only extreme vertical, flat slopes/walls would she probably have a
>problem with, but then witha grappling hook, rope, or whatever, they would
be no
>problem either. Realism again...
That's just because a level is designed in a certain way and if you could go
anywhere you liked, you could finish the level without having seen 70% of
it, for instance. The idea of crawling on steep surfaces and using spikey
shoes ís good, I think, because if Core'd implement that, the could keep
count of that while designing a level.
About the realism, every game lacks a lot of things which aren't realistic.
But that's because that particular feature wasn't necessary to put into the
game. Why would you want to be able to smoke in Tomb Raider 3? Or maybe
urinate?
Ansjovis
Mark A heeft geschreven in bericht <364B74...@rbgkewdotorg.uk>...
>Eep² wrote:
>>
>> Realism is the key...
>>
>> Realism again...
>
>Realism, shmealism.
>
>It's a game, not a documentary for God's sake.
>
>Regards
>
>Mark
Ansjovis
Startrek Series. How can two people be miles away in a 20 by 20 room?
Eep² heeft geschreven in bericht <364B9747...@tnlc.com>...
>TR is a 3D game based on virtual reality concepts and is, thus, a stab at
mimmicking reality. If a game is going to ATTEMPT to mimmick reality, its
creators should at least mimmick reality THOROUGHLY. It's not easy doing
what nature does naturally...it takes hard work, perserverance, and
extensive quality control to even come CLOSE to mimmicking reality. And if
it was just a game, why are so many "games" and programs trying to do it?
Ever heard of a holodeck? That's where "games" are headed, you know...
Jeff Price
Ansjovis wrote in message <72rrcv$t78$1...@news.zeelandnet.nl>...
>YES!
>
>Mark A heeft geschreven in bericht <364B74...@rbgkewdotorg.uk>...
>>Eep² wrote:
>>>
>>> Realism is the key...
>>>
>>> Realism again...
>>
>>Realism, shmealism.
>>
>>It's a game, not a documentary for God's sake.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Mark
>
>
Jeff Price
Ansjovis wrote in message <72rreu$t7o$1...@news.zeelandnet.nl>...
>I think the holodeck is one of the most questionable things featuring in
the
>Startrek Series. How can two people be miles away in a 20 by 20 room?
>
That's easy. I would post the answer, but it is fairly long and this isn't
a trek newsgroup. However, suffice it to say there is a logical, reasonable
explanation for how the holodeck works in Star Trek.
Ironically, the most impossible part of Trek is one of the oldest things in
it...the Transporter. Scientifically completely impossible, with no
possible exception (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle). And this time,
even Trek has no answer for how it works...so they just added a component
name for the transporter that is impossible...a "Heisenberg Compensator."
Phoenix928
>>>
>>> Realism again...
>>
>>Realism, shmealism.
>>
>>It's a game, not a documentary for God's sake.
True! I play a game to escape, I don't want loadsa keys and god knows how many
moves/events to be worrying about.
Sure, don't make it totally unrealistic, but make it totally true to life and
you've lost the point of a game;)
Michelle
the word 'realism' and how it was important to my gameplay, so I'll comment.
I can't believe the posts that people are writing which say "Realism isn't
important, it's just a game, etc." Of COURSE realism is important!! If realistic
environments weren't necessary you'd still be playing on your Atari 2600! When I
started with that system at age 7 I used a lot of imagination and had a lot of
fun. However, I still bought the NES, and Super NES in high school, because the
graphics were better and looked 'more realistic'. In college I played only one
video game, "Out of this World," and thought I was through forever with video
games.
After graduation, I was in the store one day and bought the shareware version of
Quake for $5 as an afterthought. When loaded it, my jaw hit the floor. It was SO
incredibly realistic!! So immersive! Although Doom had been the rage in the
dorms in college, I always thought it was cheesy and never paid more than
cursory attention. With Quake I was hooked on the new 3D environments, and
eventually made my way to Tomb Raider.
Would any of you rather see the strings hanging from the spacecraft in 'Star
Wars' or 'Star Trek', or the crashmats that stuntpersons land on (or even that
they *are* stuntpersons and not the actual lead actpersons), or have every movie
like 'Plan 9 from Outer Space' (noted for its especially bad special effects),
or even see the boom mikes hanging down at the top of the screen, (which is in a
scene in that Bruce Willis movie 'Striking Distance')?
Movies are much like video games. There is a constant strive for better special
effects and realism. Reflect on how far the LOD (level of detail) in video games
has come in the last 15 years. In probably much sooner than 50 years hence we
will be playing games indistinguishable from what we see on the big screen.
There have been comments such as "it's just a game; it's meant to escape real
life not remind us of it." We *also* go to the movies to escape real life, yet
good acting and seamless editing (and effects) are valued quite highly by most
moviegoers. Obviously some of the comments related to Lara's personal habits and
the like are ridic (ulous); in books, movies, and tv such things are not
included as they would be superfluous. Which is also how a show can take place
over a time period of days, weeks, or years, yet be only 2 hours in length.
Video games will continue to become visually more like standard television
programs or cinema, until there is no difference. And this is a good thing. We
play video games (of the class TR is in) for much the same reason we go to see a
big action film. We are allowed to view part of the life of someone who is quite
exciting, and for a time we forget about our ordinary, dull experience. If your
life was as exciting as John McClane in 'Die Hard,' Ellen Ripley in 'Aliens,' or
Lara Croft in 'Tomb Raider,' you wouldn't be seeing a movie or playing a game
based on that, believe me. Video games have the added bonus of us controlling
the action, and us controlling or becoming the hero(ine). Thus to be drawn in
('immersion' -- the sense of 'being there'), we need to have clues that 'this
could actually be true'. Which is why state of the art graphics and high realism
are essential.
Michelle
P.S. We must also keep in mind that we *direct* Lara Croft, which is different
than *being* Lara Croft (and I think most of you guys would like to keep it at
that ;). Which is why the game is in 3rd person, and why the camera pans the way
it does. We follow her, as evidenced by the last scene in TR2. (Having her run
around a corner before we catch up, while mildly annoying, adds suspense and I
don't mind it.)
Erich Owens
first bought I didn't understand any of it. Now after learning a bit about
some of the things in it , the book is making a lot of sense.
-Erich, 13
Jeff Price
different...unrelated actually.
I will use an example you already mentioned: Star Trek.
All of the Star Trek shows had excellent special effects for the time they
were created (yes, for the 1960's, even the OLD Trek with Kirk, McCoy and
Spock had good special effects.) However, NONE of them had an ounce of
realism. 99% of the science in Trek is pure fiction...impossible, and
unrealistic.
The realism we are talking about is making the game play exactly like real
life...therefore turning Tomb Raider into a simulation rather than a game.
Jeff Price
>first bought I didn't understand any of it. Now after learning a bit about
>some of the things in it , the book is making a lot of sense.
Nah. I don't even go to Trek conventions. Not a real "Trekkie", just a
casual fan. I am however a bit of a science reader...Stephen Hawking's
Brief History of Time is high on my recommendations list.
Eep²
Jeff Price
Eep² wrote in message <36546333...@tnlc.com>...
>Um, no. I'm talking about realism in mimicking REALITY (nature, physics,
etc).
So was I. That was what the Trek comment was about...
Loren Petrich
Michelle <Nos...@whatsoever.com> wrote:
>After graduation, I was in the store one day and bought the shareware version of
>Quake for $5 as an afterthought. When loaded it, my jaw hit the floor. It was SO
>incredibly realistic!!
The first real-time-3D game I've ever played was the old arcade
game Battlezone -- one drives a tank and tries to shoot enemy tanks. The
graphics were hopelessly cheesy -- see-through wireframe -- but I
nevertheless loved that engine sound and its revving up as one started
moving.
And the first texture-mapped real-time-3D game I ever played was
Marathon 1 -- I remember the demo, and the feel I got of moving around in
a real-looking structure. I also remember how it ended -- I unlocked a
room with bright flickering light, and read the contents of a terminal --
Leela saying, in effect, "Hooray! You did it!".
I came across Doom and Quake much later, when they were ported to
the MacOS. Sorry if I seem like a Macintosh bigot, but my experiences with
DOS and Windows are not very pleasant, and I'm not eager to shell out
$2000-$3000 for a PeeCee when I could get an improved Macintosh with the
money.
And about TR, the way that Lara Croft gets portrayed was a poor
advertisement for me -- I don't like bimboishness.
>Movies are much like video games. There is a constant strive for better special
>effects and realism. ...
And in "Floating Islands", I had to remind myself that "this is
only a computer game" -- just like the phrase "this is only a movie".
>P.S. We must also keep in mind that we *direct* Lara Croft, which is different
>than *being* Lara Croft (and I think most of you guys would like to keep it at
>that ;).
Well, to tell the truth, I do prefer male player characters -- but
ones that are not big lunks. Duke Nukem was fun, but he's not exactly my
type of personality. Lara Croft is one female player character I'm willing
to make an exception for -- I perceive her as my alter ego in the game.
Which is why the game is in 3rd person, and why the camera pans the way
>it does. We follow her, as evidenced by the last scene in TR2. (Having her run
>around a corner before we catch up, while mildly annoying, adds suspense and I
>don't mind it.)
Having your alter ego turn against you is a shock, isn't it?
--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
pet...@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html
tiger
I, just, want the TR3 Engine to be as good as the TR1 and 2 Engines...
Seeing Lara slip below the Ground and disappear into Walls
is a little disappointing for any type of Realism, Cartoon or Movie ...
In article <3654a...@nemo.idirect.com>, "Jeff Price" <jkp...@idirect.com>
wrote:
Jeff Price
> The first real-time-3D game I've ever played was the old arcade
>game Battlezone -- one drives a tank and tries to shoot enemy tanks. The
>graphics were hopelessly cheesy -- see-through wireframe -- but I
>nevertheless loved that engine sound and its revving up as one started
>moving.
>
Loren, if it exists for the Mac (I don't think it does) or you know someone
with an accellerated PC and a decent joystick, you must try out the demo of
the new Battlezone. INCREDIBLE...
> I came across Doom and Quake much later, when they were ported to
>the MacOS. Sorry if I seem like a Macintosh bigot, but my experiences with
>DOS and Windows are not very pleasant, and I'm not eager to shell out
>$2000-$3000 for a PeeCee when I could get an improved Macintosh with the
>money.
>
While I understand, I don't agree. The Mac is no longer so superior to the
PC...and actually, for $2000-$3000, you can easily get a top of the line 450
Mhz PC that, for games, will blow any Mac for near that price out of the
water. That being said, if I did more business work with my PC, I would
probably switch to a Mac.
One thing...the price of Macs is higher primarily because they all use SCSI
controllers. However, the newer UDMA IDE controllers on the PC's add almost
nothing to the cost of a motherboard (while SCSI adds a lot), and they are
about the same speed (High end SCSI drives are faster, but you pay triple
the price for them.)
Don't get me wrong though...I like Macs...and can see their value for many
things, and their appeal. If compatibility for gaming wasn't such an issue
for me, I would consider one.
> And about TR, the way that Lara Croft gets portrayed was a poor
>advertisement for me -- I don't like bimboishness.
>
I liked Lara as portrayed in TR1...but not so much they way she was in TR2
or in her advertisements.
>>Movies are much like video games. There is a constant strive for better
special
>>effects and realism. ...
>
> And in "Floating Islands", I had to remind myself that "this is
>only a computer game" -- just like the phrase "this is only a movie".
>
Freaked out level.
>>P.S. We must also keep in mind that we *direct* Lara Croft, which is
different
>>than *being* Lara Croft (and I think most of you guys would like to keep
it at
>>that ;).
>
> Well, to tell the truth, I do prefer male player characters -- but
>ones that are not big lunks. Duke Nukem was fun, but he's not exactly my
>type of personality. Lara Croft is one female player character I'm willing
>to make an exception for -- I perceive her as my alter ego in the game.
>
I got used to Lara...I am not sure how comfortable I will be looking at
Indianna Jones' buttocks through an entire game when it comes out...
> Having your alter ego turn against you is a shock, isn't it?
Yeah, but it was funnier than Eidos nasty trick at the end of the Training
level in the original TR...
"Now, I better take off these wet clothes..."
[fade to black]
Jeff Price
Eep² wrote in message <36546333...@tnlc.com>...
>Um, no. I'm talking about realism in mimicking REALITY (nature, physics,
etc).
>
I don't want a game to mimic physics or nature too well. Hell, in real
life, archaeology is boring.
snark^
warbled on about "Re: Wrong about Realism" in alt.games.tombraider <<=
Archeology boring? Hah! The discovery of Troy by Schliemann; Evans finding
the Palace at Knossos - these mean nothing to you?
How does this grab you then; every archeological dig has nubile young female
students taking the practical requirement labs for their courses? Does that
not make archeology sound worthwhile? :)
I hear that more than a few field archeology professors these days (ie.,
since a certain movies series came out) have scars on their faces that come
from badly mishandling whips when trying to impress said nubile young female
students. It must be hard for these 50odd year old men trying to live to
their new adventurous new image.....
--
UFOs can be seen by draining two fifths, then using them as binoculars.
Loren Petrich
snark^ <jabbe...@deepinthetulgeywook.com> wrote:
>Archeology boring? Hah! The discovery of Troy by Schliemann; Evans finding
>the Palace at Knossos - these mean nothing to you?
Doing a careful job of it would certainly seem dull, I agree.
But that gives an idea for a TR map -- the Palace of Knossos. I
have actually made a map of that for the Marathon engine, and yes, I would
sometimes get lost in it as I was texturing that map. It is not surprising
that its name, the Labyrinth, had become a synonym for maziness.
That might be a good map to port to TR; however, I'm not sure how
far one might want Lara Croft to imitate Minoan female fashion (women wore
long skirts and were often bare-breasted). Long skirts might have to be
turned into baggy pants. And instead of finding dragon statuettes in it,
one might find statuettes of some of those Minoan ladies.