Brood war conclusion. (From experienced player)
Janine
After many months pondering the pro's and con's of each race, I have finally
come to the conclusion that the game is more balanced towards the mighty
protoss, since Brood War.
Before you start flaming, allow me to point out I have played over 400 games
online, using random races and just about every tactic imaginable.
Put simply, the protoss have far more strategies available than the Terran
or Zerg. In the hands of experienced players, protoss will always come up
tops.
Some examples? Well apart from the obvious mind control (which is only
useful if you take over expensive units NOT WORKERS)....
Corsairs and Arbiters. 1, Disruption web all the enemies defenses. 2, Put a
stasis field on all enemy units. 3, send your forces and rip apart his base,
unchallenged.... Game won.
Arbiter drop - Sneak behind enemy lines, to his minerals. Warp in CLOAKED
reavers, and zealots. Hit his HQ and his workers. Best tactic to add to this
is to have 2nd arbiter at base to warp units back... then again you could
always ignore attacks (use stasis field, as above).
High Templars. Two words - PSI storm. An upgraded templar can use this three
times... And no matter how good a zerg opponent is at micromanaging, you
will always inflict severe damage with enough templars... great on maps with
narrow passages (ground units). Also good against clumps of air units,
especially guardians. It's not AS good against terran though... To add to
this, you can use the arbiter warp to get two templars behind enemy lines,
and storm all his workers.
I could go on all day about the effectivness of corsairs and arbiters and
high templars, and the various methods of good usage... But I hope you get
the idea from the above small examples.
Notice how I am only mentioning some advanced strategies. Any fool can do a
Dark Templar/Zealot rush, or a carrier mass(and any good player can defend
them). Please do not disagree with me if you play protoss like this, as you
are obviously not using their REAL power.
To any zerg/terran players - I play mainly zerg! I know that all three races
do have tactics and counter tactics... For example terran EMP and nuke is
great... Zerg have ensnare, dark swarm, plague. What I am stating here is
that the protoss have by far the most numerous and most effective
strategies, in the hands of a good player. Please visit the strategy section
on my page below for more strategies on all races, before telling but me
this race can do this! etc blah... chances are I already know :)
Any intelligent/mature responses apprectiated.
Janine
--
Visit Games Universe! http://www.rawnsley.force9.co.uk
Brad Olney
other races well and conclude that the one they can use well is best. In fact i
use terrans almost all the time and have beaten the shit out of some very good
protoss and zerg players. Lastly, how can you claim to be an "experienced"
player if you cant see this for yerself. Ya know like in 3 of yer tactics you
listed arbitors, but if a player had even one SV, an attack you planed with them
would not work. And corsairs are only good against turrents. Even still if a
player had an SV you couldnt web shit. Even if you do get a web off just walk
out from under it. Its simple as that. So my conclusion is, you must be real
shitty with terran and zerg, or you must play some real shitty players.
Gamma
Brad Olney <a...@a.com> wrote:
>Dude, its people like you that i hate because they dont know how to
>use the other races well and conclude that the one they can use
>well is best.
Reread the post. She plays mainly Zerg. So whatever you wish to
accuse her of, you can't accuse her of this.
>In fact i use terrans almost all the time and have beaten the shit
>out of some very good protoss and zerg players.
The question is not whether it's possible for you to do this. It's
whether a Protoss player will beat Terran and Zerg players of equal
skill more often than not. "Equal skill" is such a fuzzy concept
that we'll probably never know for sure, but looking at statistics
on B.net for 1-on-1 melee may be informative. (Probably not, though,
since B.net players are at widely varying skill.)
>Lastly, how can you claim to be an "experienced" player if you cant
>see this for yerself. Ya know like in 3 of yer tactics you listed
>arbitors, but if a player had even one SV, an attack you planed with
>them would not work. And corsairs are only good against turrents.
And bunkers, and sieged tanks, and sunkens, and spores...
>Even still if a player had an SV you couldnt web shit. Even if you
>do get a web off just walk out from under it. Its simple as that.
>So my conclusion is, you must be real shitty with terran and zerg,
>or you must play some real shitty players.
Somewhere in there you did have a good point.
Protoss have the most oddball spells, IMO. This tends to give them
the most deviant strategies and tactics.
However, the more you rely on spells, the more micromanagement you
will have to perform. The managing you do must make up for the fact
that your opponent, who we are assuming is of equal skill, is able
to devote more brain cells to unit building, tech developing,
building construction, and conventional combat. If it can't, you
will slowly lose ground despite all the tricks you're pulling.
As Brad said, it's fairly easy to fight spellcasting with
spellcasting. SVs can EMP you before you are ready. And it's hard
to pull off anything sneaky if queens are always parasiting your
units, and if Zerg are constantly swarming you.
--
Paul Brinkley
ga...@clark.net
Gary Bryson
agree with most of what janine says (just the use of mind control that I
disagree with)
firstly, arbitors can easily use stasis field against a SV and still use
recall to bring in units, so that strategy is a valid one, and one I have
won many ladder games with.
Corsairs, now this is a very handy unit, they are as good against bunkers as
they are against turrets, marines suck against protoss unless they are in
huge numbers, also they work well against zerg spore colony's and allow good
use of carriers against them, they are one of the best units added, also
they are excellent against sieged tanks, because by the time you unseige
them, they are rather dead.
Protoss are by far the most powerful race, but this has really always been
the case, but a good player using one of the other races can beat a good
protoss player, protoss units are expensive and a change of strategy mid
game by a protoss player is hard to accomplish, whereas with the other 2
races it isn't as hard to turn around. They all have there pro's and con's..
Meanman
http://www.thrash.demon.co.uk/
Brad Olney <a...@a.com> wrote in message news:36F3DDCF...@a.com...
> Dude, its people like you that i hate because they dont know how to use
the
> other races well and conclude that the one they can use well is best. In
fact i
> use terrans almost all the time and have beaten the shit out of some very
good
> protoss and zerg players. Lastly, how can you claim to be an
"experienced"
> player if you cant see this for yerself. Ya know like in 3 of yer tactics
you
> listed arbitors, but if a player had even one SV, an attack you planed
with them
> would not work. And corsairs are only good against turrents. Even still
if a
> player had an SV you couldnt web shit. Even if you do get a web off just
walk
> out from under it. Its simple as that. So my conclusion is, you must be
real
> shitty with terran and zerg, or you must play some real shitty players.
>
Janine
You obviously did not read my post at all... I claim that protoss are the
best race not because I use them, but because they have so many strategies.
If you had actually read ALL of my post, you might have noticed I said I am
mainly a ZERG player.... You might also have noticed I asked for mature
responses.
It's also obvious you did not look at my page, hence the assumption I know
nothing about all three races.
Also obvious id the fact you misunderstood my corsair tactic. Did I say use
ONE corsair and a web? Nope... I meant several, webs all over. Bye bye
turrets, cannons, bunkers, any static ground defense. And out of curiosity,
how the hell does a Science vessel aid any 'webbed' defensive structures?
explain please.... perhaps you mean EMP? Yeah sure they can take a corsairs
energy.... I don't dispute that. But you would have to be DAMNED fast to do
it to several properly spaced out and micro-managed corsairs.
And as for mobile units walking out of a web... well of course they can!
Thats why I said to use stasis field on them...
I think you should re-read my post and try to at least understand it before
attempting a cocky reply.
Janine
assuming it does not attack a halucianted arbiter of course. Or that the
protoss player does not have other arbiters in reserve. In fact, I beleive
you would have to be lucky to spot and disable an arbiter before it casts
the underused stasis field on a clump of your units.
Tactics and counter tactics. It's what Starcraft is all about... but the
protoss have more ways of doing things in general than the other races.
Rygar1
<jan...@rawnsley.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>After many months pondering the pro's and con's of each race, I have finally
>come to the conclusion that the game is more balanced towards the mighty
>protoss, since Brood War.
>Before you start flaming, allow me to point out I have played over 400 games
>online, using random races and just about every tactic imaginable.
That doesn't mean you are equally good with all the races :) Many
people just find one race they are more adept with. I've played
around 350 games, and I can get the best of any race using any other
race. Not saying I always win of course, but if the player isn't
better than I am, certainly picking a certain race won't be an
advantage.
>Put simply, the protoss have far more strategies available than the Terran
>or Zerg. In the hands of experienced players, protoss will always come up
>tops.
Number of strategies doesn't mean much, it's the strength of the
strategies that matter.
>Corsairs and Arbiters. 1, Disruption web all the enemies defenses. 2, Put a
>stasis field on all enemy units. 3, send your forces and rip apart his base,
>unchallenged.... Game won.
Whoa, assuming you have enough Stasis to cover all his units! I
highly doubt that. You're also assuming you can even get close to your
opponents base :) The game is more than base busting. If I gained and
advantage and surrounded your base, I could win by "siege" :) Been
there, done that. The opponent runs out of resources, and it's game
over.
D-web is fantastic though.
>Arbiter drop - Sneak behind enemy lines, to his minerals. Warp in CLOAKED
>reavers, and zealots. Hit his HQ and his workers. Best tactic to add to this
>is to have 2nd arbiter at base to warp units back... then again you could
>always ignore attacks (use stasis field, as above).
Shrug, my opponents don't seem to get far enough to get Arbiters :)
Most good players will have detectors by their peon line.
>High Templars. Two words - PSI storm.
Nastiest spell in the game.
> An upgraded templar can use this three
>times... And no matter how good a zerg opponent is at micromanaging, you
>will always inflict severe damage with enough templars...
Assuming they aren't Broodlinged first.
>great on maps with
>narrow passages (ground units). Also good against clumps of air units,
>especially guardians. It's not AS good against terran though... To add to
>this, you can use the arbiter warp to get two templars behind enemy lines,
>and storm all his workers.
Well, there are lots of ways to get to the workers. You can pretty
much drop anything. There's also the cannons on the cliff behind
trick, which can now also be done really well with Lurkers. Oh, and
tanks of course :)
>I could go on all day about the effectivness of corsairs and arbiters and
>high templars, and the various methods of good usage... But I hope you get
>the idea from the above small examples.
And we could go on all day about the effectiveness of the other races
:)
>To any zerg/terran players - I play mainly zerg! I know that all three races
>do have tactics and counter tactics... For example terran EMP and nuke is
>great... Zerg have ensnare, dark swarm, plague. What I am stating here is
>that the protoss have by far the most numerous and most effective
>strategies, in the hands of a good player.
I don't think so. There is pretty much nothing you mentioned that the
other races can't do in a similar fashion.
Arbiter stasis = Ghost's lockdown. IMHO, even better, as you can
attack the frozen units :)
Bunker busting - Plague, Guardians, Yamato, tanks
Dweb - Zerg have the "reverse" with Dark Swarm
I could go on, but it's all been said before :)
Most of your strats rely on variations using an Arbiter. This is not a
Brood War unit, so I'm not sure how BW supposedly turned the tide
towards Protoss. Hmmm in fact, the only BW effect you mentioned was
D-web.
The fact is that SC/BW have a "rock - paper - scissors" analogy going
for all the races. There is not one strat you can come up with that
can't be beaten by *any* of the races, and if they scout and prepare
ahead of time, minimal (or relatively equal) losses. It all comes
down to build orders (for rushing or rush defence), resource gathering
and expansions (and proventing your opponent(s) from doing so), and
most importantly, scouting.
webrunner
Janine wrote in message ...
>In addition... yeah a Science vessel can remove an Arbiters powers... thats
>assuming it does not attack a halucianted arbiter of course. Or that the
>protoss player does not have other arbiters in reserve. In fact, I beleive
The Cloaking Field is still there- that's the most important of hte
Arbiter's powers.
webrunner
them. Remember back before 1.04... the muta rush. The Zerg could win with
one strategy.
Janine wrote in message
Gamma
The detection field is still there- that's the most important of the
SV's powers. :-)
Actually I wouldn't call cloaking/detection their primary powers,
but that really depends on what you're planning for them, of course.
--
Paul Brinkley
ga...@clark.net
slick8o8
> The detection field is still there- that's the most important of the
> SV's powers. :-)
>
That is until the corsairs are through with the web disruption and go in to kill
all air forces terran may have.
slick8o8
Rygar1 wrote:
> The fact is that SC/BW have a "rock - paper - scissors" analogy going
> for all the races. There is not one strat you can come up with that
> can't be beaten by *any* of the races, and if they scout and prepare
> ahead of time, minimal (or relatively equal) losses. It all comes
> down to build orders (for rushing or rush defence), resource gathering
> and expansions (and proventing your opponent(s) from doing so), and
> most importantly, scouting.
That is one of the most important and least done tactics in all of the games I
have played. Not enough people scout to be prepared. They rely on a mass swarm
attack and just leave it at that, no strategy. Albeit, I don't play many 3human
vs 5 comp games, the games I do play in are mostly non strategic. A lost art
that should be brought back instead of making "map hacks".
DJSystem
>turrets, cannons, bunkers, any static ground defense. And out of curiosity,
>how the hell does a Science vessel aid any 'webbed' defensive structures?
>explain please.... perhaps you mean EMP? Yeah sure they can take a corsairs
>energy.... I don't dispute that. But you would have to be DAMNED fast to do
>it to several properly spaced out and micro-managed corsairs.
>And as for mobile units walking out of a web... well of course they can!
>Thats why I said to use stasis field on them...
>I think you should re-read my post and try to at least understand it before
>attempting a cocky reply.
No offense Janine, but did it ever occur to you that the other guy/girl
*might* have air units at his/her base ?
DJSystem
>
>Janine wrote in message ...
>>In addition... yeah a Science vessel can remove an Arbiters powers...
thats
>>assuming it does not attack a halucianted arbiter of course. Or that the
>>protoss player does not have other arbiters in reserve. In fact, I beleive
>
>
>Arbiter's powers.
Nothing that a comsat / turret / spore / overlord won't fix.
DJSystem
>stasis field on all enemy units. 3, send your forces and rip apart his
base,
>unchallenged.... Game won.
Right. What other units ? There might be this little convoy underway
to YOUR base while you stasis his/hers. So if you send out all your
base defense you're pretty likely to get your own base smacked.
>Arbiter drop - Sneak behind enemy lines, to his minerals. Warp in CLOAKED
Sneak ? What idiot wont put turrets or photons/spores where his minerals are
?
That tactic worked when Starcraft was just released, I always searched for
weak spots with an observer, and when I found one I'd fly in an arb and
recall
lost of mayhem (mostly reaver/archon combo). But people have learned.
And good terrans will have EMP waiting.
>High Templars. Two words - PSI storm. An upgraded templar can use this
three
>times... And no matter how good a zerg opponent is at micromanaging, you
>will always inflict severe damage with enough templars... great on maps
with
You might also kill your own templars if a zerg has one or two guardians
at his base, since templars always start to wander around when they're
hit by air units. And broodlinged templars don't get 3 shots.
>narrow passages (ground units). Also good against clumps of air units,
>especially guardians. It's not AS good against terran though... To add to
>this, you can use the arbiter warp to get two templars behind enemy lines,
>and storm all his workers.
Then you would have to be an excellent targeter as far as clicking is
concerned. First you have to get the templars from under the arb.
A good opponent will have his workers already fleeing to something
else.
>I could go on all day about the effectivness of corsairs and arbiters and
>high templars, and the various methods of good usage... But I hope you get
>the idea from the above small examples.
>
>Notice how I am only mentioning some advanced strategies. Any fool can do a
>Dark Templar/Zealot rush, or a carrier mass(and any good player can defend
>them). Please do not disagree with me if you play protoss like this, as you
>are obviously not using their REAL power.
Any fool can do a carrier mass attack, but the expert knows WHEN to do
that.
>Any intelligent/mature responses apprectiated.
Hmm... How am I doing so far ? ;)
Janine
on all or most of his mobile units - this includes air as stasis field gets
them too... No offense taken, I think most people who have posted a reply
have completely misunderstood my main piont though....
Janine
Observers... they are brill. I use overlords and burrowed units for zerg...
but its a bastard when they get killed (especially overlords!)
Janine
DJSystem wrote in message <7d5uir$3ke$1...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
>Janine wrote in message ...
>>Corsairs and Arbiters. 1, Disruption web all the enemies defenses. 2, Put
a
>>stasis field on all enemy units. 3, send your forces and rip apart his
>base,
>>unchallenged.... Game won.
>
>
>Right. What other units ? There might be this little convoy underway
>to YOUR base while you stasis his/hers. So if you send out all your
>base defense you're pretty likely to get your own base smacked.
LOL I did not say send ALL your units... you know as well as me that 6 DT's
for buildings, 6 dragoons for things in webs would do the trick in no
time... you took out his defenses remember? And you should have cannons and
mobile units back at base... No fool sends ALL his units - not even me when
pissed :)
>
>>Arbiter drop - Sneak behind enemy lines, to his minerals. Warp in CLOAKED
>
>
>Sneak ? What idiot wont put turrets or photons/spores where his minerals
are
>?
>That tactic worked when Starcraft was just released, I always searched for
>weak spots with an observer, and when I found one I'd fly in an arb and
>recall
>lost of mayhem (mostly reaver/archon combo). But people have learned.
>
>And good terrans will have EMP waiting.
Hmmm you would be surprised! On some maps its pretty damned hard to get your
minerals defended... especially if there are cliffs in the way which are not
reachable by a worker... you will only be able to build defensive stuff in
that situation once you get shuttles etc. to transport a worker up. You
could always defend with air units of course... but it would be pretty risky
to keep em all at the rear - PSI fodder for any templars which have sneaked
into 'black spots' , for example. And again I stress STASIS - gets rid of
any mobile defense there and then. As for SV's yes they are splendid
things - but you gotta be one lucky devil to spot that Arbiter AND EMP it
before it pulls in some trouble.
>
>>High Templars. Two words - PSI storm. An upgraded templar can use this
>three
>>times... And no matter how good a zerg opponent is at micromanaging, you
>>will always inflict severe damage with enough templars... great on maps
>with
>
>
>You might also kill your own templars if a zerg has one or two guardians
>at his base, since templars always start to wander around when they're
>hit by air units. And broodlinged templars don't get 3 shots.
How many times have I heard ppl say broodling is good for zerg vs templar?
Sorry, but against a GOOD protoss player it is not. My last game for
example, the guy had his 4 templars individually hotkeyed - and they were
covered by all his air units (24 scouts). I used dark swarm for the air and
36 hydras... but before 1 minute they all got frazzled. No one, repeat NO
one could have individually found and targetted all (or any?) of those
templars in time! Lets compare things.
PSI - Long range, can use max three times, deadly as hell (take out max 12
hydras one shot).
BROODLING - Long range. Must be able to first SEE then individually target
the unit fast enough (before it PSI's). Can only be cast ONCE per queen,
even with upgrades.. then they have to recharge. Works perfectly vs seige
tanks but with templars you have to be lucky or have a dumb protoss opponent
who sends out templars on their own :)
EMP - Long range, does NOT have to be individually targetted - cast it in
the rough area and voila! Multiple protoss units with no shields and energy.
Not sure how much it costs but hey, for templars you only need to use it
once.
>
>>narrow passages (ground units). Also good against clumps of air units,
>>especially guardians. It's not AS good against terran though... To add to
>>this, you can use the arbiter warp to get two templars behind enemy lines,
>>and storm all his workers.
>
>
>Then you would have to be an excellent targeter as far as clicking is
>concerned. First you have to get the templars from under the arb.
>A good opponent will have his workers already fleeing to something
>else.
yup, if he saw you :O)
>
>>I could go on all day about the effectivness of corsairs and arbiters and
>>high templars, and the various methods of good usage... But I hope you get
>>the idea from the above small examples.
>>
>>Notice how I am only mentioning some advanced strategies. Any fool can do
a
>>Dark Templar/Zealot rush, or a carrier mass(and any good player can defend
>>them). Please do not disagree with me if you play protoss like this, as
you
>>are obviously not using their REAL power.
>
>
>Any fool can do a carrier mass attack, but the expert knows WHEN to do
>that.
Hmmm well it would have to be late game for he/she to be rich enough. Terran
have EMP, goliaths, shosts for lockdown etc. Zerg just need hydras and
darkswarm... but devourers are fucken ace backed up - strip the carrier
armour away and they do not last long :)
>
>>Any intelligent/mature responses apprectiated.
>
>
>Hmm... How am I doing so far ? ;)
Great! The only worthwhile read out of them all... But I still have to find
a good and reasonable zerg counter for PSI. Remember what I said, broodling
is not good enough. EMP is wicked. Is this fair? I have found zerglings to
be best vs templars... but they dont always get there in time, more so when
the templars are backed up.
Janine
>
>
webrunner
Janine wrote in message ...