My visit to Sunnyvale: SUNNYVALE RULES.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Those of you who follow this group regularly have probably seen my
postings. From them, you can gather that I'm a pretty good player at
this game. Not incredible, but I certainly know what I'm doing. Well,
Brian Weissman and his friend John took me out to Sunnyvale Golfland
tonight, and I can honestly say that the players there are ORDERS OF
MAGNITUDE better than almost anyone else I've seen play the game.
How good are they? Well, after playing against 5 of their top ten
for 5 hours, I'd won *5* matchs. Beyond excellent reflexes and a good
knowledge for the game, the Sunnyvale players have developed several
strategies, which IMHO, puts them in another class. I'll go over the
details of my visit in the following order
1) Unique Sunnyvale techniques
2) The players specifically
3) The final word
1) TECHNIQUES
============================
"Meaty" attacks
----------------
According to Weissman, a 'meaty' attack is one that lands inside your
opponent as he's getting up. Because this type of attack hits later
than it normally would, it can be used to start a combo which otherwise
wouldn't be possible. Also, attempting to do anything but block a correctly
timed meaty attack will earn you a fist/foot in the face. This is old news
to regular readers of this group. However, the Sunnyvale players have
developed this strategy to the fullest, executing meaty-combos with perfect
timing every time you're knocked down. Here are some interesting meaty
combos...
Ryu: meaty low strong + low strong + FB
Sagat: meaty low short + high roundhouse + roundhouse FB
Fei: meaty fierce + fierce + 3 x rushing punch
Chun: meaty low forward + low fierce
Balrog: meaty crouched strong + crouched strong + straight rushing punch
You get the idea. The effect is to pin you down. Doing anything other
than blocking is opening yourself up to easy hits and a stun, because
these combos stun nearly 100% after a throw. The UIUC "vunerable while
getting up" theory aint a theory no more.
Now consider your normal, excellent Ryu who can also execute meaty
combos. He knocks you down (DP, throw, etc.), then proceeds to combo you.
If you try to get out, you're stunned. If you don't try to get out, Ryu's
got a golden opportunity to tick you. If he succeeds, you're on your
back again for yet another meaty combo.
Comparing the Sunnyvale use of this technique to the 'short+fierce+FB'
discussions here is like comparing a four fierce combo to a series of
jabs. Words cannot describe the effect this technique has on your game.
No longer is your opponent 'safe' when he's recovering. Rather, this is
where he is most vunerable.
Sunnyvale Combos
------------------
Here are some interesting combos that I saw at Sunnyvale that I haven't
seen posted in this group. Weissman, please correct me if I screw any
of these up, esp. the Vega ones
Ryu: Flying roundhouse + standing strong + crouched roundhouse
Neck Roundhouse + low strong + standing strong + FB
Vega: Flying roundhouse + crouched forward + crouched strong
jab + fierce roll + strong (6 hits)
Flying fierce + standing fierce + standing stong
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is not a typo. =)
Ticking
------------
No, Sunnyvale is not a no-throw zone. Far from it. Throwing seemed
to be encouraged, esp. when one player was behind. There were many
cries of 'cheap,' but they were most often cheers, not complaints. =)
Faking
------------
Sheesh.....I've never seen anyone fake more than the guys at Sunnyvale.
It seemed like they were always either on the attack, reseting their
position, or faking. Faking was even incorperated in their 'dance'
for position. Basically, what this meant for me was the watching hands
and listening was utterly useless. In one match against Thomas Ohira,
I counted about 9 fakes for every fireball. Faking seemed to be
done mostly with the strong anf fierce buttons, I'm not sure why.
2) THE PLAYERS AND HOW I FARED
================================
Here's the low-down on the players I played
Brian Weissman: Brian has the most annoying Vega I've ever seen, and a
respectable Sagat. My Chun Li took a few rounds from his Vega, and
one match from his Sagat. My Ken fared well against Vega, but was
crushed by Sagat. My Guile (which is good BTW) was DEMOLISHED by
both Vega and Sagat.
John ???????: Brian's friend John is supposed to have the best Ryu
at Sunnyvale. I can believe it: I took only 1 in about 30 matches
against him. John is ranked _fourth_ among Sunnyvale players.
John is a champion of 'normal combos', meaning that they don't involve
special techniques (like the Ryu combo above). His timing on meaty
combos and everything else is exceptional, as is his spacing and ability
to position himself. John plays an _extremely_ offensive Ryu, which
is a refreshing change.
Thomas Ohira: Thomas is said to have the best Guile in Sunnyvale, but
unfortunately I didn't get to see it. Thomas played an excellent
Ryu all night. I played him 9 times, nearly always with Chun Li. I
beat him twice, three other matches were very close, and he crushed
me in the remaining four. Not bad for his second character.
The guy who won the Slam-Master tournament: This guy used to have a
SSF2 in his house, but it didn't show. He had an excellent knowledge
of the fundamentals, but seemed a little sloppier than the other
Sunnyvale players. Because of this, I'd rank his Sagat as very, very
good, rather than exceptional. His occasional mistake would allow
players to get back in matchs that he should have won. Nevertheless,
a very good player.
Me, Chun, and the Pink Flamingo
----------------------------------
I played against these four and a few others. I'd like to call my
visit there a victory, not because I won many games (which I CLEARLY
did not), but because I made a good case for Chun Li. My first
selection of Chun was greeted with scoffs, but after taking Thomas
Ohira to three rounds (and narrowly missing a victory), people seemed
intrigued. Next time, when my Chun beat Ohira's Ryu (to cries
of 'punching bag! punching bag!' from the crowd), people started to
take notice. A few of the regulars (including John) picked Chun
and started playing my style, the Pink Flamingo, with some success.
So, while I got my *ss kicked all night, at least people were impressed
with my Chun.
BTW, after learning A LOT about new tactics tonight, I'm going to update,
improve, and repost my Chun Li guide. Look for it in the near future.
3) THE FINAL WORD
=====================
While it's impossible to say that the players at Sunnyvale are the best
in the nation, they make an excellent case for it. I would be AMAZED
if there was _any_ place in the country with ten players that are
the quality of Sunnyvale's top ten. If anyone out there needs a good
humbling, I suggest you go there on a Friday or Wednesday night.
Humbled, Bruised, Battered, but still kickin,
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Christopher Chambers
Is this to say that 'meaty attacks' hit before Ryu or Guile or Sagat's (etc.)
'getting up into a DP/FK' can hit? It wasn't clear whether they just failed
or whether it was not worth the risk of accidentally flubbing one somehow
and getting meated out. What's the deal here? Standard practice has been that
jumping in on those characters as they're getting up is asking for pain.
--
-chambers
Thomas Calvin Cannon
A meaty attack will hit Ryu/Ken etc. before they can execute the DP.
Even a wake-up DP. Believe me, I tried, and it doesn't work. Also, the
players at Sunnyvale don't jump in against players getting up. The
meaty-combos in by previous post nearly always stun, so there's no reason
to.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Stilt Man
>Is this to say that 'meaty attacks' hit before Ryu or Guile or Sagat's (etc.)
>'getting up into a DP/FK' can hit?
This is correct. I have used these sorts of attacks in the past (though with
Bison there's less option to combo with, but it's still quite effective),
though this is the first time I've heard the phrase "meaty attack." However,
a properly timed "meaty attack" will indeed prevent an opponent from doing
anything but blocking when they're getting up. It will also do the same for
an opponent who's just been knocked out of the air and is followed to the
ground. For instance, I get lots of dizzies by roundhousing an opponent out
of the air, followed by a "meaty" low forward/roundhouse on the ground when
then get DP or FK happy.
________________________________________________________________________
| The Stilt Man (ELF) fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bison's speech for the masses: |
| "I don't want the world. I just want your half . . . " |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Get lost, you can't compare with my powers.
Matthew A Wallace
Really? I've never seen two fierces, just low, meaty fierce + run,run,run
The problem is, at least Bison can attempt a throw and still block the
low meaty fierce, for some reason...
>
>Chun: meaty low forward + low fierce
>
>Balrog: meaty crouched strong + crouched strong + straight rushing punch
It's meaty low forward, low strong, jab run punch
>
>You get the idea. The effect is to pin you down. Doing anything other
>than blocking is opening yourself up to easy hits and a stun, because
>these combos stun nearly 100% after a throw. The UIUC "vunerable while
>getting up" theory aint a theory no more.
>
>Now consider your normal, excellent Ryu who can also execute meaty
>combos. He knocks you down (DP, throw, etc.), then proceeds to combo you.
>If you try to get out, you're stunned. If you don't try to get out, Ryu's
>got a golden opportunity to tick you. If he succeeds, you're on your
>back again for yet another meaty combo.
>
>Comparing the Sunnyvale use of this technique to the 'short+fierce+FB'
>discussions here is like comparing a four fierce combo to a series of
>jabs. Words cannot describe the effect this technique has on your game.
>No longer is your opponent 'safe' when he's recovering. Rather, this is
>where he is most vunerable.
>
>Sunnyvale Combos
>------------------
>Here are some interesting combos that I saw at Sunnyvale that I haven't
>seen posted in this group. Weissman, please correct me if I screw any
>of these up, esp. the Vega ones
>
>Ryu: Flying roundhouse + standing strong + crouched roundhouse
> Neck Roundhouse + low strong + standing strong + FB
>Vega: Flying roundhouse + crouched forward + crouched strong
> jab + fierce roll + strong (6 hits)
> Flying fierce + standing fierce + standing stong
Hmm...I think that should be ducking strong, but...maybe....
> This is not a typo. =)
>
>Ticking
>------------
>No, Sunnyvale is not a no-throw zone. Far from it. Throwing seemed
>to be encouraged, esp. when one player was behind. There were many
>cries of 'cheap,' but they were most often cheers, not complaints. =)
>
>Faking
>------------
>Sheesh.....I've never seen anyone fake more than the guys at Sunnyvale.
>It seemed like they were always either on the attack, reseting their
>position, or faking. Faking was even incorperated in their 'dance'
>for position. Basically, what this meant for me was the watching hands
>and listening was utterly useless. In one match against Thomas Ohira,
>I counted about 9 fakes for every fireball. Faking seemed to be
>done mostly with the strong anf fierce buttons, I'm not sure why.
Funny you should say that. I told Brian I thought they didn't fake enough.
BTW, It's Thomas ASAKI. Tomo Ohira is in LA.
>
>2) THE PLAYERS AND HOW I FARED
>================================
>Here's the low-down on the players I played
>
>Brian Weissman: Brian has the most annoying Vega I've ever seen, and a
>respectable Sagat. My Chun Li took a few rounds from his Vega, and
>one match from his Sagat. My Ken fared well against Vega, but was
>crushed by Sagat. My Guile (which is good BTW) was DEMOLISHED by
>both Vega and Sagat.
>
>John ???????: Brian's friend John is supposed to have the best Ryu
>at Sunnyvale. I can believe it: I took only 1 in about 30 matches
>against him. John is ranked _fourth_ among Sunnyvale players.
>John is a champion of 'normal combos', meaning that they don't involve
>special techniques (like the Ryu combo above). His timing on meaty
>combos and everything else is exceptional, as is his spacing and ability
>to position himself. John plays an _extremely_ offensive Ryu, which
>is a refreshing change.
Jon Prentice's best character is supposedly Ryu. And you haven't faced
the Chun challenge unless you face off vs. his 'Sim.
I don't know why you're calling him the fourth ranked, though. Last week
he was supposedly number 1.
>
>Thomas Ohira: Thomas is said to have the best Guile in Sunnyvale, but
>unfortunately I didn't get to see it. Thomas played an excellent
>Ryu all night. I played him 9 times, nearly always with Chun Li. I
>beat him twice, three other matches were very close, and he crushed
>me in the remaining four. Not bad for his second character.
Let me just repeat that it's Thomas Asaki.
>
>The guy who won the Slam-Master tournament: This guy used to have a
>SSF2 in his house, but it didn't show. He had an excellent knowledge
>of the fundamentals, but seemed a little sloppier than the other
>Sunnyvale players. Because of this, I'd rank his Sagat as very, very
>good, rather than exceptional. His occasional mistake would allow
>players to get back in matchs that he should have won. Nevertheless,
>a very good player.
Colloquially known as "Cheapass" for a variety of reasons. I think his
name is Jason... His Sagat is good. Try taking on his Ryu, and his Bison.
I've watched him outmatch Jon...like last week.
Congratulations! Brian called me to tell about the trip. I hope more
of the netters in range will come out. I wish they'd fix the SSF2 here
in Santa Cruz-- one jab has been broken for 2 weeks now!
Jon has always played a pretty good Chun. I'd love to see how his strategy
has improved after playing you.
-Matt Wallace
Matthew A Wallace
A meaty attack is normally done on the ground. This is not jumping in, it's
standing next to a character, and starting with a ducking(usually) attack.
-Matt Wallace
Philip John Stroffolino
>Now consider your normal, excellent Ryu who can also execute
>meaty combos. He knocks you down (DP, throw, etc.), then
>proceeds to combo you. If you try to get out, you're stunned.
>If you don't try to get out, Ryu's got a golden opportunity
>to tick you.
What?!? You mean you can't just listen for a pause? =)
The described meat-storm sounds pretty nasty - reminds me of JQR's neck
kick series on HF...
However, I can only imagine the outcry at most arcades if one were to
get the timing down for this and introduce it...
pjs
Jasper Phillips
seem to do nothiing but wake-up uppercuts with Ken/Ryu. You get a good
damage combo, a stun, your best combo, and that's probably all she wrote.
>
-Jasper
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Matthew A Wallace <mwal...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU> wrote:
>
>In article <2hqph9$m...@nntp2.Stanford.EDU> ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>>Sunnyvale Combos
>>------------------
>>Here are some interesting combos that I saw at Sunnyvale that I haven't
>>seen posted in this group. Weissman, please correct me if I screw any
>>of these up, esp. the Vega ones
>>
>>Ryu: Flying roundhouse + standing strong + crouched roundhouse
>> Neck Roundhouse + low strong + standing strong + FB
>>Vega: Flying roundhouse + crouched forward + crouched strong
>> jab + fierce roll + strong (6 hits)
>> Flying fierce + standing fierce + standing stong
> Hmm...I think that should be ducking strong, but...maybe....
>
Nope, it's as I listed it. Weissman showed it to me himself.
Tom
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>>John ???????: Brian's friend John is supposed to have the best Ryu
>>at Sunnyvale. I can believe it: I took only 1 in about 30 matches
>>against him. John is ranked _fourth_ among Sunnyvale players.
>>John is a champion of 'normal combos', meaning that they don't involve
>>special techniques (like the Ryu combo above). His timing on meaty
>>combos and everything else is exceptional, as is his spacing and ability
>>to position himself. John plays an _extremely_ offensive Ryu, which
>>is a refreshing change.
>
>Jon Prentice's best character is supposedly Ryu. And you haven't faced
>the Chun challenge unless you face off vs. his 'Sim.
>I don't know why you're calling him the fourth ranked, though. Last week
>he was supposedly number 1.
>
Played his Dhalsim once or twice, and had a much easier time than with
his Ryu. Ryu simply overpowered me. If I stayed on the ground against
Dhalsim, I had a good chance. The number 4 ranking overall is from his
own mouth.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Matthew A Wallace
Really? It was only last Wed. or Thur. that he found low forward, standing
fierce, ducking strong. Pretty wild how fast thing build up, huh?
-Matt
Eu-Ming Lee
>On Meaty Attacks:
We've gone over this before. Before Super came out. 'Meaty' attacks,
as they call them in Sunnyvale, have been known for quite a while. I
believe they call it 'Minging' when you try and DP out of a Meaty attack
and get comboed and dizzied. That's because I visited UIUC after
retiring and got the 'meat' beat outta me by well-timed attacks.
Well, at least we have out-of-UIUC confirmation. At least it didn't
take as long as confirming the viability of counter-throwing. Only
about a 6 month lag time for this confirmation.
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"i showed this girl my stitches
"she said she had some too
"she said she thinks she'll start a rock band too." - Throwing Muses
John Q. Ronstedt
>cham...@lclark.edu (Christopher Chambers) writes:
>>On Meaty Attacks:
>>Is this to say that 'meaty attacks' hit before Ryu or Guile or Sagat's (etc.)
>>'getting up into a DP/FK' can hit? It wasn't clear whether they just failed
>>or whether it was not worth the risk of accidentally flubbing one somehow
>>and getting meated out. What's the deal here? Standard practice has been that
>>jumping in on those characters as they're getting up is asking for pain.
>We've gone over this before. Before Super came out. 'Meaty' attacks,
>as they call them in Sunnyvale, have been known for quite a while. I
>believe they call it 'Minging' when you try and DP out of a Meaty attack
>and get comboed and dizzied. That's because I visited UIUC after
>retiring and got the 'meat' beat outta me by well-timed attacks.
>Well, at least we have out-of-UIUC confirmation. At least it didn't
>take as long as confirming the viability of counter-throwing. Only
>about a 6 month lag time for this confirmation.
WOW!! Meaty Attacks! Boy Sunnyvale continues to surprise me with its
innovation! Damn, why didn't I think of this? Ooops, I did. About a
year ago. Keep up the good work, Sunnyvale. What was the argument on
this 6 months ago... hmmm 6 months of it not even being on the net
and then 6 months for some morons to 'CONFIRM' it. Oh thank you,
Sunnyvale gods, for confirming shit that we've known for a year.
Hey - a clever new name for them too.. 'meaty attacks'. It continues
to astound me as to how much I learn from this net. John Nishinaga, where
are you now? Have these morons been giving up the position from a knock
down all this time? Good job, SF2 experts. As I wade through the myriad
of asians, some from california.. beating them with short kicks and fireballs,
I wonder.. why the fuck don't they ever learn? Is it that hard? Hell
it only took ming about 5 games to get the picture, although he is one
of the most open-minded asians I know.
Your perfect combos won't do jack if you don't have the timing or position
or intuition to beat even the crappiest ryu at UIUC. It's pathetic.
.
Charles B. Ireland IV
: WOW!! Meaty Attacks! Boy Sunnyvale continues to surprise me with its
: innovation! Damn, why didn't I think of this? Ooops, I did. About a
: year ago. Keep up the good work, Sunnyvale. What was the argument on
: this 6 months ago... hmmm 6 months of it not even being on the net
: and then 6 months for some morons to 'CONFIRM' it. Oh thank you,
: Sunnyvale gods, for confirming shit that we've known for a year.
: Hey - a clever new name for them too.. 'meaty attacks'. It continues
: to astound me as to how much I learn from this net. John Nishinaga, where
: are you now? Have these morons been giving up the position from a knock
: down all this time? Good job, SF2 experts. As I wade through the myriad
: of asians, some from california.. beating them with short kicks and fireballs,
: I wonder.. why the fuck don't they ever learn? Is it that hard? Hell
: it only took ming about 5 games to get the picture, although he is one
: of the most open-minded asians I know.
: Your perfect combos won't do jack if you don't have the timing or position
: or intuition to beat even the crappiest ryu at UIUC. It's pathetic.
: .
Hmm, I have never met any of you guys, but one thing strikes me.
Some people on this net are content to play the game, and play it well,
where others feel a need to brag and to make unfounded claims (not about
aspects of the game, which I guess you probably have some basis for making,
but about your ability to beat other people.) There is no way for you to
know you can beat a group of people thousands of miles away from you. SO
STOP WITH THE EMPTY BOASTING. IT IS VERY ANNOYING. You're more credible
if you respect others' skills and make assertions which can be tested in
the context of the game. All of this is pointless:
"Well, your Ryu's suck." You can't know this.
"Your combos won't do jack if you don't...." Well, what if they do?
"<character> destroys <character>" Not if you're good enough.
What I'm really getting at is, you ought not make claims that you
cannot prove. To state your opinion that you are better than someone else
is one thing. To offer this as objective truth is ridiculous.
Until you show your superiority, you ought to show maturity and by
respecting your opponent and refraining from making unfounded
claims. Self-confidence (a faith in oneself) is a positive
attribute, but arrogance (making unwarrantable claims or pretensions to
superior importance or rights) is not. If you choose to flame me,
you only reveal your own insecurity and inability to articulate a
well-thought out response. Somebody once said, "It ain't bragging
if you can back it up." But ain't NOTHING till you do. So until
you prove your superiority, please hush.
Sensible responses appreciated, empty flames read and scoffed at.
C. B. Ireland