Inescapable(?) pattern using Guile vs. Chun Li
cho soobum
depressing it is for Chun Li...
Guile starts the round with a Jab SB. If Chun Li starts with a FB,
Guile Backfists her. If she forward-flips over the SB, Guile can walk
under and throw. If she jumps-straight-up, Chun Li gets the Backfist
on the way down. If she whirlwind kicks through the SB at the last
moment, Guile knocks her down with a well-timed crouching Fierce or
Backfist. If she blocks the SB, Guile gets to tick or fake-tick.
Start over with another Jab SB.
Even though pattern playing is not good, I don't think deviation from this
pattern would do Guile any good. Chun Li's forward-flip Forward Kick has
priority over Guile's crouching Fierce, Backfist, and standing Roundhouse
so trying any of those if she jumps-in over a SB isn't a good idea.....
I found that out the hard way :)
-Soobum
sc...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
Eu-Ming Lee
>I was thinking about the matchup between Guile and Chun Li and how REALLY
>depressing it is for Chun Li...
>
>Guile starts the round with a Jab SB. If Chun Li starts with a FB,
>Guile Backfists her. If she forward-flips over the SB, Guile can walk
>under and throw. If she jumps-straight-up, Chun Li gets the Backfist
>on the way down. If she whirlwind kicks through the SB at the last
>moment, Guile knocks her down with a well-timed crouching Fierce or
>Backfist. If she blocks the SB, Guile gets to tick or fake-tick.
>Start over with another Jab SB.
The best thing for Chun Li to do is to block the sonic boom. If the
Guile player is wise, he'll leave it alone after Chun Li blocks the sonic
boom. If he goes in for a throw or fake, he's liable to get thrown.
Chun Li's strategy against Guile is to get close to him. If Guile wants
to go in on Chun Li, fine, but it's eliminating Guile's positional
advantage over Chun Li.
Of course, Guile has so many other advantages over Chun Li, I wouldn't
consider it brash of Guile to try and go in for throws every once in a
while.
>-Soobum
>sc...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Friends don't let friends use Windows.
Brian Odom
>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
>>I was thinking about the matchup between Guile and Chun Li and how REALLY
>>depressing it is for Chun Li...
It's not depressing for Chun Li. Chun Li is probably the second best character
in the game, next to Ryu of course. OK, Zangief is a close second, too.
>The best thing for Chun Li to do is to block the sonic boom. If the
>Guile player is wise, he'll leave it alone after Chun Li blocks the sonic
>boom. If he goes in for a throw or fake, he's liable to get thrown.
>Chun Li's strategy against Guile is to get close to him. If Guile wants
>to go in on Chun Li, fine, but it's eliminating Guile's positional
>advantage over Chun Li.
Just jump in with the jumping forward. It's pretty effective. Also, if you
want to get fancy, if Guile throws a sonic boom at close range, try an aerial
short SBK as a surprise move. It can be cheap sometimes. Hits on the way up
and on the way down and stun (even with the short). It may be more effective
to do it on the ground, but try one in the air (starting from the ground,
of course).
>Of course, Guile has so many other advantages over Chun Li, I wouldn't
>consider it brash of Guile to try and go in for throws every once in a
>while.
I actually believe she has more advantages than Guile, but we have very good
Chun Li players here who have played her and exclusively her since the very
beginning of SF2. We have weaker Ryu/Ken/Guile players, but we are improving
fast.
Crying Freeman
>>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
Chun Li is helpless against a properly played Guile.
PERIOD.
--
Che-Yuan Wang
cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Norman Chan
>Chun Li is helpless against a properly played Guile.
>PERIOD.
>
>--
>Che-Yuan Wang
>cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
I can't believe you guys (even Cybergeek Eu-Ming Lee).
You are all forgetting the simplest, most elegant solution
to this problem of Guile opening the game with a JAB-SONIC BOOM!
The SF2-programmers gave our Youthful Beauty a move called
'Phoenix Dances on the Pavillion' (or head-stomp),
specifically to balance her against this upstart Guile.
On Hyper, Li Chun just jumps over the boom, head-stomps Guile
to prevent a walk-under throw and then executes the
'Flying Phoenix Kick' (Spinning Bird) to prevent his hitting her
on the way down.
Free Advice: Mix it up! Use the palm of your hand to depress
Short, Forward, or Roundhouse to control speed
and duration of your flight, or else a good Ken/Ryu
might capitalize on a Dragon-Punch.
There is one problem, though, which is the cunning Guile-player
who will stand and wait all day long for you to jump in, at which
time he razor-kicks, knowing that Li Chun must jump.
Well, this is the era of Hyper-Fighting! Gesture at Guile with
several fierce motions and suddenly release a Yoga-Flame to catch
him off guard!
Enough on this matter. On Hyper, I fear only Ken/Ryu.
Sincerely,
Norman Chan
Crying Freeman
>>Chun Li is helpless against a properly played Guile.
>>PERIOD.
>>
>>--
>>Che-Yuan Wang
>>cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
>>cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
>I can't believe you guys (even Cybergeek Eu-Ming Lee).
>You are all forgetting the simplest, most elegant solution
>to this problem of Guile opening the game with a JAB-SONIC BOOM!
I'm not talking about starting with a jab-sonic, I am talking
about Guile vs. Chun Li in general. It is pretty hopeless for
Chun Li unless Guile screws up.
>The SF2-programmers gave our Youthful Beauty a move called
>'Phoenix Dances on the Pavillion' (or head-stomp),
>specifically to balance her against this upstart Guile.
On Classic or CE, Guile can usually "maneuver" Chun Li
in the air and suplex before she lands.
>On Hyper, Li Chun just jumps over the boom, head-stomps Guile
>to prevent a walk-under throw and then executes the
>'Flying Phoenix Kick' (Spinning Bird) to prevent his hitting her
>on the way down.
Nope. Guile can just jump towards Chun Li and fierce chop her out
of the air. Simple.
>There is one problem, though, which is the cunning Guile-player
>who will stand and wait all day long for you to jump in, at which
>time he razor-kicks, knowing that Li Chun must jump.
>Well, this is the era of Hyper-Fighting! Gesture at Guile with
>several fierce motions and suddenly release a Yoga-Flame to catch
>him off guard!
>Enough on this matter. On Hyper, I fear only Ken/Ryu.
Guess you guys don't have any decent Guiles...
> Sincerely,
> Norman Chan
Mao Tse-tung
>
>Chun Li is helpless against a properly played Guile.
>PERIOD.
>
A properly played Chun Li can cause lots of trouble against Guile.
Benjamin Louis Hayek
>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>>>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
I can't agree any more. Trust me, I'm a Chun Li player, and Guile is the
absolute worst match in the game.
Ben.
Benjamin Louis Hayek
It's the stupidest thing to use the foot stomp on Guile, even if you do the
SBK, because Guile can just jump up and chomp your ass out of the air, every
time. Every single time. As soon as it looks like Chun Li has a little, tiny
advantage over Guile, someone always finds a way out of it. Damn!
Ben.
Eu-Ming Lee
>I can't believe you guys (even Cybergeek Eu-Ming Lee).
>You are all forgetting the simplest, most elegant solution
>to this problem of Guile opening the game with a JAB-SONIC BOOM!
>The SF2-programmers gave our Youthful Beauty a move called
>'Phoenix Dances on the Pavillion' (or head-stomp),
>specifically to balance her against this upstart Guile.
>On Hyper, Li Chun just jumps over the boom, head-stomps Guile
>to prevent a walk-under throw and then executes the
>'Flying Phoenix Kick' (Spinning Bird) to prevent his hitting her
>on the way down.
This is old stuff. After getting head stomped (or maybe even blocking
it), Guile jumps back and hits Chun Li with a fierce punch. Gets her
every time she does that Spinning Bird Kick. And if she doesn't do it,
she gets aerial thrown.
The aerial throw was the counter to the head stomp from classic days---
it still remains in effect through all of the versions including HF.
I was rather confused the first time a Chun Li player kept doing this
to me on HF. Guile slapped her out of the air every time. I guess some
people think they can still get away with the head stomp?
Jay Ongg
What do you mean it's the dumbest thing for chunli to heel kick guile?
If guile tries to jump back and throw you or chop you, time it and do the
SBK. Remember she has a window of invulnerability when she does it, so
the chop doesn't hit her, but her legs hit HIM instead! Do it enough
times, and it'll make him think twice about trying it again.
Crying Freeman
Believe me, it's much easier to time the chop to hit Chun Li before
or after she goes into the SBK than it is for her to anticipate exactly
when Guile will chop and go into the SBK.
Guile has two choices, jump up and whack her as she's bouncing off, or
wait until she goes into her SBK and then jump up and chop. I've even
inadvertantly gotten the midair throw while doing this.
At BEST, the SBK will be an escape from an almost automatic suplex.
Face it, Chun Li's SBK is NOT Ryu's HK.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
No, but it's cuter.
ST10...@brownvm.brown.edu
simply because I've only gotten away with it when playing against
Guile's who don't really know what they're doing. I've tried timing
the SBK really tightly while doing this, but I honestly think a properly
timed Guile chop will take me out everytime.
I suppose the strategy I try to adopt as Chun LI playing against Guile is
to distance myself properly. I just try to keep out of that distance where
Guile can walk under me with impunity as I jump his SBs and throw me.
If you're far away enough, you can hit him with the forward kick, and
if you're close enough, you can simply fierce punch or crouching roundhouse
him before he gets the boom out. (at this latter distance, though,
Chun li is in Guile's crouching roundhouse range, so don't forget to block ;-))
And then of course there's that sweet distance where you can jump over the
SB, Flying fierce, standing fierce and lightning kick him to oblivion.
Any decent Guile won't let you keep that distance for more than a sec.
When opening the game against Guile, I therefore usually just jump backwards,
so that if guile had started walking right after his SB, you can jump forward
and hit him. Another possible way out of this might be to jump straight
up over the SB and do a roundhouse, hitting Guile as he walks in. If
you do this soon enough, Guile shouldn't be able to backhand you..the
problem is that you'll probably fall back onto the sonic boom..i don't know
if this is a good trade. (anyway, Guiles probably have some counter to this.)
To conclude my rambling, I would say that I do get pretty depressed playing
Chun Li against Guile, but it's not really anything to do with inescapable
patterns...just my lack of skill/timing, really (eg messing up the fierce
punch which should hit guile just as he starts the SB)
-Zachary
Justin C. Hogue
..to prevent a walk-under throw and then executes the
..'Flying Phoenix Kick' (Spinning Bird) to prevent his hitting her
..on the way down.
.This is old stuff. After getting head stomped (or maybe even blocking
.it), Guile jumps back and hits Chun Li with a fierce punch. Gets her
.every time she does that Spinning Bird Kick. And if she doesn't do it,
.she gets aerial thrown.
Do the bird kick a bit later. If you do it right before Guile hits
Chun Li, the same invulnerability appearant when Chun Li passes through
fireballs shows up here, and Guile gets bomped on the head. Works for
me all the time...and don't say I don't play any good Guiles.
--Jowfus
Justin C. Hogue
>>>PERIOD.
must not play anybody who is good with X. Everybody said Zangief was beatable
by everybody yet I like to think that I have proven that far from true. I
think Chun Li in the hands of a person with good hand-eye coordination can
be a real pain against anybody, even Ryu.
--Jowfus
Eric Garcia
And that can be countered by a patient chun Li who aeriel slams you the next
time you play. and then guile does something else... No character is helpless
against any other character. They all have so many moves that a counter almost
always exists.
Lord Baal
I believe when people talk about x and y they are
talking about master vs master (whoever they are)
so master ryu(translated boring ryu) can easily
defeat chunli...because there is not much she can do!
Lord Baal.....
djt...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
I have to concur with this statement. I was a REALLY big pain in the butt
with Chun Li. Could even handle those damned pesky Guiles on Classic
around here, and I've seen the most damned pain in the ass combos.
Then came CE, and HF. Did pretty well, although a pain in the ass Ken with his
repetitive combos was fairly tough. Ryu? Pshaw. Fake him out, get him in the
air, and proceed to have your way with him.
However, I'm RIT's biggest pain in the butt with Vega. Isn't that right, Elton?
:)
Patrick Gray
I STILL haven't played you I don't think. Where do you play? Under the dorms
or in SAU? (sorry for not putting this in mail)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Gray | Ken: "Attack me if you dare.
PEG...@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU | My ego will crush you!"
Rochester Institute of Technology | Ryu: "What a dork..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ba08118
I know someone here who plays Vega and he is very good with him (esp the airslams)
but for some reason I always have his number... Rochester isn't that far from
where I am (Binghamton) and I always love a good challenge... anyone interested?
- Axis
rxv...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
But about you...don't you go under the dorms for the HF machine??
I'll be glad to challenge you.
Joe. (ignore the username...it's not mine!!!)
Benjamin Louis Hayek
Well, it never works for me, I don't say that I'm not a good Chun Li. I have
tried this many times, waiting until the very last instant before Guile hits
me, and I always get hit out of it. I'm not saying that you don't play and
good Guiles, but I am saying that the Guiles you play don't know how to hit
Chun Li out of the SPK after she headstomps on you.
Ben.
.
>--Jowfus
Lord Baal
Well ben which means that he doent play good guiles hahahahahah
Lord Baal...
Patrick Gray
>
>I know someone here who plays Vega and he is very good with him (esp the airslams)
>but for some reason I always have his number... Rochester isn't that far from
>where I am (Binghamton) and I always love a good challenge... anyone interested?
>
>- Axis
Sure...where the hell is Binghamton? I have no idea what else is around here.
I'm oblivious to everything but the campus. :)
I don't have a car or anything, so I don't have a way of getting there.
ba08118
Take I390 South to Rt 17E and 17 into Binghamton... it's about 3 hours
(Short for me) and I do have a car... If you guys will be around I'd drive up
there... Anyone else? :)
- Axis
j...@ponder.csci.unt.edu
other character' - this is FALSE. If you have two people of equal skill,
every character has an 'anti-character' (well, maybe not *every character). ;)
Here we go:
character anti-character
Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over.
Blanka Balrog Balrog renders Blanka's rolls useless, and just kicks butt
Chun Li Ken Ken's Dp v. Chun's hang time gives him a big advantage.
Honda Anybody who can sweep ;)
Sagat Chun Li Chun's kicks can render Sagat's DP usless.
And much much more ;) In general, if one character render's another
character's special move(s) useless - he gets an automatic advantage. The
best example is balrog can (with ease) make Blanka pay for every roll. Blanka
has no such clear cut way to render Balrog's special move(s) useless -
therefore Balrog get's the advantage.
Dhalsim can easily punch UNDER Guile's sonic booms - making them hurt.
Guile has no such way of rendering Dhalsim's special moves useless. Advantage
Dhalsim. Dhalsim can also keep Guile at long distance with ease.
On the Guile v Chun issue - the head stompt doesn't automatically stop
the flash kick -- but IF it did, then Chun would have the advantage.,
Ciao...
- Jason
Eric Garcia
> I keep seeing a bunch of people saying 'nobody is helpless against any
> other character' - this is FALSE. If you have two people of equal skill,
> every character has an 'anti-character' (well, maybe not *every character). ;)
This depends on the whether you mean HF CE or original Hf is the only one where
the what you say is true.
>
> Here we go:
>
> character anti-character
>
> Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over.
like I said HF
> Blanka Balrog Balrog renders Blanka's rolls useless, and just kicks butt
Anybody who can sweep and uppercut can take balrog; Furrballs are non-relevent
since a master Blanka knows not to furrball AT Balrog.
> Chun Li Ken Ken's Dp v. Chun's hang time gives him a big advantage.
Like I said only on HF Chun has been slowed down. On CE and below Chun Li is
Ken's match.
> Honda Anybody who can sweep ;)
Assumiong their sweep has more priority than Honda's, Only
> Sagat Chun Li Chun's kicks can render Sagat's DP usless.
No argument there , But where I play Sagat's are rare, meaning he might not be
at his full potential.
> And much much more ;) In general, if one character render's another
> character's special move(s) useless - he gets an automatic advantage. The
Not neccesserily, Using special moves is only your best Choice when you have
A Defenite advantage,(Flash kick vs. non-Ryu/Ken, DP vs. slow dudes.)
When I play Ryu vs. a Guile player, Prioritie's go to Guile for the most part
Meaning I have to use my speacial Moves to kill him. But that Guile player can
hold me off by just using his regular moves, and using his specials for
suprises.
> best example is balrog can (with ease) make Blanka pay for every roll. Blanka
> has no such clear cut way to render Balrog's special move(s) useless -
Like you said with Honda Sweep. if he goes high Banana Punch/Furrball the rear
part of his jump punch.
> therefore Balrog get's the advantage.
> Dhalsim can easily punch UNDER Guile's sonic booms - making them hurt.
> Guile has no such way of rendering Dhalsim's special moves useless. Advantage
> Dhalsim. Dhalsim can also keep Guile at long distance with ease.
A boring Fireball/Sonic Boom war will keep those pesky Dhalsims at bay. If
Dhalsim gets top close fake a boom and razor kick Dhalsim's arm should be
at just the right place.
> On the Guile v Chun issue - the head stompt doesn't automatically stop
> the flash kick -- but IF it did, then Chun would have the advantage.,
try the swing(aeriel roundhouse) kick it has a better chance.
>
> Ciao...
>
>
> - Jason
>
Lord Vader
:character anti-character
:Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over.
:Blanka Balrog Balrog renders Blanka's rolls useless, and just kicks butt
:Chun Li Ken Ken's Dp v. Chun's hang time gives him a big advantage.
:Honda Anybody who can sweep ;)
:Sagat Chun Li Chun's kicks can render Sagat's DP usless.
I would have to say that Guile vs. Dhalsim is actually an even match. The
relativity between them seemed to hold over from Classic. This can be a
headache for both players, much as Zangief vs. Dhalsim was on CE.
Balrog can rarely defeat a well played Blanka. If you are speaking CE, then
what you said is certainly true, but in HF, Blanka pastes Balrog in almost
every match. He simply doesn't have a good counter to the vertical ball,
especially if it comes straight down overhead :(. And the damage that
Balrog can do after a ball attack is only good now, not excellent like it
used to be. Balrog lost vs. Blanka while gaining vs. other characters in HF.
Now, Honda is not that bad off. He has tough fights, but if the Honda is
played well, even good Kens and Ryus can fall to Honda. The footsweep
strategy works, but not all Hondas will keep jumping into it, and they
may be able to get in close enough for a grab. It might be hard to get in
on occasion, but he does SO much damage!
Ken vs. Chun Li is quite bad. However, there are a few Chun Li's that can
crush footsweep happy Kens. In this fashion, it is to Chun Li's advantage
to stay on the ground and dance around a bit until he misses a footsweep,
then run in for the throw. This can be a pain for a while until Ken calms
down. Ryu is trouble vs Chun Li as well, good thing he isn't as fast as
Ken or everyone would be on trouble.
Sagat vs. Chun Li can be like Ken vs. Chun sometimes. If Chun Li likes to
jump around a lot, the Tiger Uppercut has no equal, and will simply
annihilate Chun Li, even if she does manage to knock him out of one now and
then. I've been in situations where I totally smash Chun Li with Sagat,
but then again, I have been buried alive by her speed. Air Chun Li = Dead.
Ground Chun Li is trouble for Sagat.
--
Caine Schneider (lord...@uiuc.edu)
"Attack me if you dare, I will crush you." -Ken
Richard Yu
That is correct, virtually every move (except the during the invunerable
moments of some moves) can be countered.
Chun-Li can also counter Guile's "jump back and Fierce after a SBK" by doing a
short kick after the SBK.
Rich
Brian Odom
> I keep seeing a bunch of people saying 'nobody is helpless against any
>other character' - this is FALSE. If you have two people of equal skill,
>every character has an 'anti-character' (well, maybe not *every character). ;)
>Here we go:
>character anti-character
>Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over.
>Blanka Balrog Balrog renders Blanka's rolls useless, and just kicks butt
>Chun Li Ken Ken's Dp v. Chun's hang time gives him a big advantage.
>Honda Anybody who can sweep ;)
>Sagat Chun Li Chun's kicks can render Sagat's DP usless.
Add these....
Dhalsim Chun Li
Blanka Chun Li
Bison Ryu
Guile Ryu
> And much much more ;) In general, if one character render's another
>character's special move(s) useless - he gets an automatic advantage. The
>best example is balrog can (with ease) make Blanka pay for every roll. Blanka
>has no such clear cut way to render Balrog's special move(s) useless -
>therefore Balrog get's the advantage.
> Dhalsim can easily punch UNDER Guile's sonic booms - making them hurt.
>Guile has no such way of rendering Dhalsim's special moves useless. Advantage
>Dhalsim. Dhalsim can also keep Guile at long distance with ease.
Nonono. All Guile has to do is after throwing a sonic boom, start hitting
short a few times before following it. This will counter Dhalsim's punches.
A real PAIN in the ass. Dhalsim's forward kick works rather well. A well
timed jumping forward by Guile can nullify this.
Another interesting counter is Ryu and Ken's counter to Balrog's TAP. It's
really a counter-counter move. If Balrog does a TAP through a FB, all Ryu/Ken
have to do is a standing jab, and this renders Balrog useless.
Maybe it's me, but I haven't been able to crouch punch under Guile's sonic
booms. Which punch are you using? I know you can't crouch fierce under it?
I should try using crouch strong and crouch jab, but I just don't. Dhalsim
can crouch fierce under another Dhalsim with ease, but not Guile. Slides
aren't too effective. If you miss or Guile jumps early, you are frozen and
you get hit.
--
Brian Odom
Guile should be pronounced Julie -- for he is such a girl.....
Cox, Bethany J.
>Guile should be pronounced Julie -- for he is such a girl.....
>
have heard so many other conscienceless manglings of his name at the arcades:
"Goo-leh", "Guee-el", "Gee-el", "Gahl", etc.
Okay, okay, you say "should be", so maybe you DO know how to pronounce it
correctly, but for all the cruisers who DON'T (and there are PLENTY such,
believe me) here it is:
"guile" (gai-el) noun. Insidious, treacherous cunning; craftiness. Derived
from Old French...
--The American Heritage Dictionary
Bethany Cox
"The following quotes are NOT paraphrased..."
co...@carleton.edu
"Hey, Bison, remember me? Me and Charlie? Remember Cambodia?"
"I remember, Guile. Go ahead. Kill me quickly."
['Get it over with!' on the SNES]"
"Honey, stop!"
"Jane?"
"Please, dear. Killing Bison won't bring Charlie back. It will only make you
a murderer. Just like Bison. Please come home. Let's start over."
"But I deserted you!"
"Please, daddy! Mommy and I still love you."
"Amy? Is that my little Amy?"
____
"Would you like some more tea, dear? Honey, what's wrong?"
"Oh... nothing, sweetheart. I just feel as though I'm waking up from a long
nightmare. I love you, Jane."
Crying Freeman
>>Brian Odom
>>Guile should be pronounced Julie -- for he is such a girl.....
>>
>Rrrrrrrrr... I swear, you people get some sort of rush from doing that... I
>have heard so many other conscienceless manglings of his name at the arcades:
>"Goo-leh", "Guee-el", "Gee-el", "Gahl", etc.
My favorite is "Gweely". This one hick dude I was playing kept saying
it and I had a hard time keeping a straight face...
>Okay, okay, you say "should be", so maybe you DO know how to pronounce it
>correctly, but for all the cruisers who DON'T (and there are PLENTY such,
>believe me) here it is:
--
Che-Yuan Wang
cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Stilt Man
>In <1993May7.0...@mercury.unt.edu> j...@ponder.csci.unt.edu () writes:
>
>
>> I keep seeing a bunch of people saying 'nobody is helpless against any
>>other character' - this is FALSE. If you have two people of equal skill,
>>every character has an 'anti-character' (well, maybe not *every character). ;)
>
>>Here we go:
>
>>character anti-character
>
>>Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over.
>>Blanka Balrog Balrog renders Blanka's rolls useless, and just kicks butt
>>Chun Li Ken Ken's Dp v. Chun's hang time gives him a big advantage.
>>Honda Anybody who can sweep ;)
>>Sagat Chun Li Chun's kicks can render Sagat's DP usless.
>
>Add these....
>
>Dhalsim Chun Li
>Blanka Chun Li
>Bison Ryu
No. I'd say Bison --> Ken more than Ryu. I've played some master Ken and
Ryu players, and Ryu's defensiveness is a lot less effective than Ken's
offensiveness. Most of the master Ken/Ryu players I play against will try
playing Ryu against me a few times before switching to Ken. A smart offensive
Bison can crack Ryu's defenses quite well. However, Ken's moves only need
one good hit and Bison is meat for the eating. Bison's hang time in the air
makes for easy hits against boring Ryu if timed right, even from all the way
across the screen. Ken players don't typically rely on defensive fireballs
as much, though, and as a result a master Bison has to hope for mistakes more
than against Ryu. With Ryu, though, the first fireball he tosses *is* a
mistake against Bison, unless it's so close that Bison can't get off the ground
to get over it. Make no mistake, a Ken who tosses a fireball is in trouble as
well, but they tend to do so less.
__________________________________________________________________________
|The Stilt Man fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
| --Never ask a mortician to go out and bring you back a cold one. |
|__________________________________________________________________________|
|fol...@storm.cs.orst.edu | The opinions expressed do not necessarily |
|fol...@mundania.cs.orst.edu | represent those of Oregon State University |
|fol...@mist.cs.orst.edu | or any of its departments. Thus, the place|
|fol...@prism.cs.orst.edu | has not been the victim of arson recently. |
|_____________________________|____________________________________________|
Do unto others before they do unto you.
Brian Odom
>In <1993May7.0...@mercury.unt.edu> j...@ponder.csci.unt.edu () writes:
>> I keep seeing a bunch of people saying 'nobody is helpless against any
>>other character' - this is FALSE. If you have two people of equal skill,
>>every character has an 'anti-character' (well, maybe not *every character). ;)
>>Here we go:
>>character anti-character
>>Guile DHALSIM A master Dhalsim will kick master Guile's butt all over
no no no. A good Guile can doing a lot of standing shorts from far away to
nullify Dhalsim's long range attacks. Sure Dhalsim can FB, but Guile can just
block or jump up. Once Guile is in, it's tough for Dhalsim. Guile can easily
jump in with a jumping forward to kick his limbs.
>Add these....
>Dhalsim Chun Li
>Blanka Chun Li
>Bison Ryu
>Guile Ryu
>> And much much more ;) In general, if one character render's another
>>character's special move(s) useless - he gets an automatic advantage. The
>>best example is balrog can (with ease) make Blanka pay for every roll. Blanka
>>has no such clear cut way to render Balrog's special move(s) useless -
>>therefore Balrog get's the advantage.
>> Dhalsim can easily punch UNDER Guile's sonic booms - making them hurt.
>>Guile has no such way of rendering Dhalsim's special moves useless. Advantage
>>Dhalsim. Dhalsim can also keep Guile at long distance with ease.
>Nonono. All Guile has to do is after throwing a sonic boom, start hitting
>short a few times before following it. This will counter Dhalsim's punches.
>A real PAIN in the ass. Dhalsim's forward kick works rather well. A well
>timed jumping forward by Guile can nullify this.
Ok, I went ahead and tested this. Now, HOW THE HELL CAN DHALSIM EASILY PUNCH
UNDER GUILE'S SONIC BOOM? Ok, had to get that off my chest.... I'll be
waiting for your answer.... I've played Dhalsim since the beginning of time,
and I don't think I've punched under a sonic boom before.
Brian Odom
>>Brian Odom
>>Guile should be pronounced Julie -- for he is such a girl.....
>>
>Rrrrrrrrr... I swear, you people get some sort of rush from doing that... I
>have heard so many other conscienceless manglings of his name at the arcades:
>"Goo-leh", "Guee-el", "Gee-el", "Gahl", etc.
You forgot "Gill"...
>Okay, okay, you say "should be", so maybe you DO know how to pronounce it
>correctly, but for all the cruisers who DON'T (and there are PLENTY such,
>believe me) here it is:
>"guile" (gai-el) noun. Insidious, treacherous cunning; craftiness. Derived
>from Old French...
>--The American Heritage Dictionary
I know what guile means. It means sly, cunning, deceitful. Lighten up. It
was intended to be humorous. That's what we call him over here. he he he
>Bethany Cox
[huge .sig deleted]
--
Brian Odom
"With that knee of his, you can't help but call him Julie...."
Brian Odom
I beg to differ since
1) Ryu does more overall damage
2) Ryu can HK Bison out of torpedo quite easily (more effective than Ken's)
3) shorter FB recovery
It's 1) and 3) that make Ryu a tougher match for Bison. A bad FB for Ken may
not be a bad one for Ryu because of the shorter recovery time. A defensive Ryu
can easily trap a Bison in the corner. Playing offensively may not be as
effective.
Stilt Man
True, but the offensive capacity he has is lessened.
>2) Ryu can HK Bison out of torpedo quite easily (more effective than Ken's)
Pure bunk. Unless you hit Bison when he's just beginning the torpedo, before
he gets into it, a head-on torp vs. HK will bring either Ryu or Ken down in
flames. (I'm discussing HF, here. In CE it was more of a tie.)
>3) shorter FB recovery
>
This makes things a little more troublesome, but a Bison player at close
range doesn't need to worry about this whether he anticipates the FB or not;
he lands behind him and tosses him.
>It's 1) and 3) that make Ryu a tougher match for Bison. A bad FB for Ken may
>not be a bad one for Ryu because of the shorter recovery time. A defensive Ryu
>can easily trap a Bison in the corner. Playing offensively may not be as
>effective.
Excuse me. I'm not certain I see how a *defensive* Ryu is going to get Bison
into the corner in the first place. However, an offensive Bison can keep a
defensive Ryu from getting into any pattern and forces him to use more creative
moves. For instance . . .
1) Squat to wait for fireball to shoot, charge head stomp
2) Head stomp when it comes--you don't have to anticipate it, he'll hit before
Ryu can recover.
3) Swing around behind him so he can't DP on reflex -- even the master Ryu and
Ken players can't adjust very well, and even if they do, you just stop
swinging in behind so they try DP'ing backwards no matter what you do.
4) Swing back in front of them again, land, and toss
Dealing with a HK is very little trouble. If they're far enough away to get
into a torpedo fully, they crash and burn. If they're too close, take the HK
in a block and toss/combo them when they land. If all else fails, duck and
torpedo them when they're coming down.
Dealing with a DP is also little trouble. A master Bison knows that his
priorities are so low that ANYONE can knock him out of just about any of his
moves if he gives them an inch of space to do so. The trick is not to. My
tactics include staying on the ground unless I have to get over a FB, which
I geneally am not stupid enough to do if they're close enough to DP me. If
they are, I block low and wait for them to make a mistake. Possibilities:
1) They misfire a DP when they'd expected me to jump, and get hit by a well-
charged torpedo or scissors.
2) They try jumping in to exploit the low block, in which case a jab torpedo
will send them down in flames, and a slide will escape.
3) They hesitate just a moment, and a scissors has them.
Even masters eventually lose their nerve and make one of these mistakes.
The basic conclusion-- Ken's TOD is the only threat that's going to seriously
give a master Bison player pause. Even that's only going to work if Bison lets
him get away with it. Each time he tries and fails, he gets a good burning
experience, if not scissored. After the latter, a third good shot any time
in the next ten seconds will leave him dizzy and without half his life. I
suspect the population of master Bisons is quite small, and as a result few
know how they really think.
Tim Morris
>Excuse me. I'm not certain I see how a *defensive* Ryu is going to get Bison
>into the corner in the first place. However, an offensive Bison can keep a
>defensive Ryu from getting into any pattern [...]
>1) Squat to wait for fireball to shoot, charge head stomp
>2) Head stomp when it comes--you don't have to anticipate it, he'll hit before
> Ryu can recover.
>3) Swing around behind him so he can't DP on reflex -- even the master Ryu and
> Ken players can't adjust very well, and even if they do, you just stop
> swinging in behind so they try DP'ing backwards no matter what you do.
>4) Swing back in front of them again, land, and toss
>Dealing with a DP is also little trouble [...]
>Even masters eventually lose their nerve and make one of these mistakes.
>The basic conclusion-- Ken's TOD is the only threat that's going to seriously
>give a master Bison player pause. Even that's only going to work if Bison lets
>him get away with it. [...]
I think your problem is with your opposition, which clearly isn't master
calibre. If they were, then your #3 ("swing behind them after a head stomp
so they can't DP on reflex...") would not apply. The _only_ safe thing
Bison can do after a head stomp is to fly back where he came from and out
of DP range, or he's dead meat, no matter which side he tries to land on.
Bison cannot react to a Ryu fireball in time to get the head stomp to
hit unless he's close, in which case Ryu can throw a slow FB followed
by a fast FB to push Bison back towards the corner. Bison's slow hang time
means a normal jump-in is out of the question unless he predicts the FB,
which generally is impossible against a master Ryu. So Ryu keeps Bison
pegged with slow fireballs, and what can Bison do about it? Don't say
headstomp, because even if it hits, Bison is forced to retreat back
to where he originally was (see above). In the end, Bison ends up
in the corner and can you spell "fireball trap". Game over, especially
in Hyper Fight.
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Morris | "If love is blind I guess I'll buy myself a cane..." - GnR. |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Stilt Man
>fol...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Stilt Man) writes:
>
>>Excuse me. I'm not certain I see how a *defensive* Ryu is going to get Bison
>>into the corner in the first place. However, an offensive Bison can keep a
>>defensive Ryu from getting into any pattern [...]
>
>>1) Squat to wait for fireball to shoot, charge head stomp
>>2) Head stomp when it comes--you don't have to anticipate it, he'll hit before
>> Ryu can recover.
>>3) Swing around behind him so he can't DP on reflex -- even the master Ryu and
>> Ken players can't adjust very well, and even if they do, you just stop
>> swinging in behind so they try DP'ing backwards no matter what you do.
>>4) Swing back in front of them again, land, and toss
>
>>Dealing with a DP is also little trouble [...]
>>Even masters eventually lose their nerve and make one of these mistakes.
>
>>The basic conclusion-- Ken's TOD is the only threat that's going to seriously
>>give a master Bison player pause. Even that's only going to work if Bison lets
>>him get away with it. [...]
>
>I think your problem is with your opposition, which clearly isn't master
>calibre. If they were, then your #3 ("swing behind them after a head stomp
>so they can't DP on reflex...") would not apply. The _only_ safe thing
>Bison can do after a head stomp is to fly back where he came from and out
>of DP range, or he's dead meat, no matter which side he tries to land on.
Not true. Bison can land on the opposite side of where he started, also out
of DP range. This gets him out of any prospective trap, leaving Ryu to try
to set it up again.
By the way, I underestimated the guys I thought were masters. They didn't
make any of the mistakes I mentioned, but I still got out of it.
>Bison cannot react to a Ryu fireball in time to get the head stomp to
>hit unless he's close, in which case Ryu can throw a slow FB followed
I'm telling you from experience, yes he can. Bison's head stomp can get out
over the fireball and hit even from far away, even on Guile, let alone Ryu.
If timed right, it will work.
>by a fast FB to push Bison back towards the corner. Bison's slow hang time
>means a normal jump-in is out of the question unless he predicts the FB,
>which generally is impossible against a master Ryu. So Ryu keeps Bison
>pegged with slow fireballs, and what can Bison do about it? Don't say
>headstomp, because even if it hits, Bison is forced to retreat back
>to where he originally was (see above). In the end, Bison ends up
Not necessarily. Ryu has to predict where he's going to go after he stomps.
Bison can swing behind or in front. A DP motion won't work if it's in the
wrong direction. Bison just has to switch his directions often enough that
Ryu can't predict it with accuracy. If he screws up, he's tossed. Even if
he can't toss him, he can land on the opposite side of where he started,
depending on which has more room. A master Bison is going to be virtually
impossible to trap, and even if you do . . .
>in the corner and can you spell "fireball trap". Game over, especially
>in Hyper Fight.
>
Fireball trap is not an end-all. Maybe against computer Bison, but computer
Bison is as much a moron as the others. A little patience, a well-timed shot,
and he's out. Only takes once. I think your problem, not mine, is with
your opposition. Let's be honest, which is more likely, that you're short of
true master Bisons or that I'm short of true master Ken/Ryus? It's a well-
known fact that the former are much rarer than the latter. For every master
Ken/Ryu out there, I'd wager there's a novice Bison who doesn't even know
how to stay on the attack against Ken/Ryu. Any distance at all between Ryu
and Bison is DEATH for Ryu if Bison knows what he's doing. A low block, Bison
can charge any of his three special moves, and he can wait for Ryu to make
a move. The moment he does, Bison's head-stomping. If he's unpredictable in
controlling his flight, Ryu won't be able to reliably deal with where he lands.
The only sure-fire way to do it is to sweep kick as he hits, but this will only
work if Bison doesn't have a punch out of the air geared to stop him. Any good
Bison who knows how to head stomp won't be anywhere near predictable enough to
just DP out of the air every time. If your Bisons aren't avoiding this right,
then you simply have never experienced what I'm talking about.