Throwing? Cheap? (semi-long)
Lord Kinboat
I try not to hack at anybody's playing style, but this guy went over the
top. I tried to ignore him the first time, but he persisted.
Why throws are not cheap (taken directly from
www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/hills/5857/the_faq_page.html )
There have always been people who think that throws are cheap, and if you
suck and don't know
that you can tech hit out of them, then I can see where you are coming from.
But last week, I
met someone with such hatred for throws (in XMVSF) it was unbelievable.
Every time I threw him,
he would mutter "filthy", or "disgusting". Then his friend comes up and
asks him if he lost.
He says "I wouldn't call it a loss...he was SO cheap. First he threw me
into a super, then he
threw me too kill me." Now come on. Throws aren't filthy or cheap. That
is like saying that
uppercuts are cheap in the MK series. Throws are a part of the game, and
what makes a good
player, is being able to defend against ALL possible attacks. You need to
practice more before
you come to the arcade and whine your sorry ass every time you get thrown.
If throws are cheap,
then so are combos, supers, trips, and everything else in the game. It is
your fault if you get
caught in a throw, and even then, it isn't rocket science to press forward
and a button.
What's worse, the same guy is always Chun Li and Cyclops and just keeps
walking forward and
hitting you low and then doing a super with Chun Li...and he has the nerve
to complain about
the way we play? Yes, it is my own stupid fault for not blocking low, but
he does it to everyone
over and over. It isn't cheap, it is just annoying and monotonous.
While I am on the subject of people who think that throws are cheap, Charlie
and Sabretooth's
infinite combos are not cheap...they're not even infinite! All you have to
do is tech hit, or
if you don't know how to do that, you can roll. The only reason these
people think that it is
cheap is because they don't know how to defend against them.
Either don't complain or don't play.
-Nick (lord kinboat)
Well, I saw him again, still complaining about throws. Then my cousin (who
works at the arcade) came up and said "You still winning? (sarcastically) I
told you to let other people win once in a while." The throw hater says
"He's only winning because he's playing cheap."
First of all I was not even close to playing cheap. The only thing I can
think of that I did that was even remotely cheap was a 16 hit combo (ooh!
soooo cheap).
Secondly, even if throws were cheap, I only threw him maybe three times the
whole match.
I pose this question to him and all other throw haters: how in the fuck is
Zangief supposed to win if he doesn't throw you?
His attitude towards throw is bad enough, but he also mutters "ooo skill"
when I do an air combo. What the fuck?!? Should I just use the joystick
and not hit any buttons? No matter what buttons I press he mocks me.
Like I said, I never make fun of someone's playing technique (scrub or
master), but all he does is walk up to you and hit you low, linked to a
super. Oh, I forgot, he just sits there and waits for you to attack until
you screw up and then he can fill his super bar to hit you low again and
then super you. Don't get me wrong...he is a good player. I just wish he
would keep his mouth shut.
I even have the courtesy to compliment him if he does a big combo or makes a
good move (as I do with anyone), but he still makes fun of me because "I
have no skill". I guess it doesn't take skill to get a 29 hit NON-infinite
with wolvie, or a 60 hit NON-infinite with Cyclops.
Here are a few things in SF that are TRULY cheap:
-Any infinite that is 100% impossible to get out of (ex: XMvSF Magneto's)
-Computer controlled Bison in any SF game up to SSF2T (he walks FORWARD at
you and then, without ever moving back, does a psycho crusher; he can do
combos that don't exist (ex: drop kick, MK, MK, MK, scissors kick))
-Taking advantage of someone's joystick not working (ex: constantly
tripping some one who's D/B doesn't work.
Those are cheap. Throws? I don't think so. They don't do shit (except for
Z and Ken) damage wise. You can tech-hit out of them. And if you allow
your opponent to get that close to you and you don't attack, you got what
was coming to you (admit it...throws don't have ANY range in XMvSF. You
have to be right next to them...not like in the pre-alpha games).
Just my opinion.
-Nick (lord kinboat)
ina...@concentric.net
www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/hills/5857
KaiserTuk
enraged with throws, even some really good players! When you walk up to
someone an entrie screens length away and throw him its utter stupidity on
his part. When someone turtles and you throw them again its their stupidity.
I don't know about you guys, but when a match is flowing with attacks and
counterattacks throws generally don't occur. They only happen when people do
things that leave them in a position to be throw, which today is almost an
impossibility considering the weak ranges of throws today. If someone has a
problem with throws, too bad. Let them deal with it.
KaiserTuk
Bob Buckman
I believe that throws are part of the game, and if you take them away you
must take away everything else. You sound like a pure fighter, a master of the
game. I feel that way about myself and excellent players are rare. Many people
think they are good until they play a master of the game.
I will always prefer the defensive fighting style of original Street Fighter
2 to today's massive combo system, but you can't complain about that. Face it,
these combos are just plain fun to do, and especially air combos! They look
spectacular and are NOT cheap.
Many people can't say this, but Zangief has always been my favorite and best
character. Sure he could pull off some minor damage combos in the original, but
it was all about the throw. His character was based soley on the throw. Why
would they make a character whose almost every move was a throw if throws were
cheap!?
Don't let this 1- combo idiot annoy you, and take pride in knowing that you
are better than he is, and he knows it.
WhoaMoses
because they are better than them. If people complain about me throwing too
much, I just say "complain again and I'll really start throwing you." If they
do complain again, I just make every move I do a throw. They usually leave, but
they learned their lesson. Whiners are losers, especially when you can tech hit
out of throws these days.
Bob Buckman
involved in it.
Richard Chang
Someone finally lays down the truth. Throws are not cheap, free damage, or
anything unbalancing. If you get thrown, you deserve it. Tech hits reduce
damage, and A3 throws are weaker than ever. Face it, people. Throws are no
longer a major offensive threat. Only people who can't adapt to throwing in
a game by using low jabs or another technique complain about throwing.
It happens in Orange, too. One guy was so against throws that whenever he
threw me, he would take his hands off the machine and offer me a free throw.
What the hell to do there?
Richard
NStar
I have always been reluctant to reply to controversial topics such as
this, but you 2 are actually respectable and have opinions that are well
to be considered. I, however, am the outcast, because I am the other
side of this debate. I do believe that throws are cheap. From day one
when I heard people complaining about throws being cheap and such, I
have heard the immediate shut down reply: "It's a part of the game."
Yes, it's part of the game, but throws, IMHO, are only cheap to an
extent.
Let's use the example of the XMen vs. SF or any of the other cross-over
games. I have seen throws done when people are left wide open, are
continuously ticking or turtling. Those guys display absolutely no
skill and deserve to be thrown because they are just being annoying and
dragging the inevitable, their demise. I have also seen throws where a
person using Ryu (as an example) do something like walk up to their
opponent, do a low Short which is blocked, and in then walks up to the
opponent, who is still blocking, and throws them. That is what I
consider cheap. In the old school play mechanics of SF2, where someone
used Guile and did a Jab Sonic Boom. Guile's recovery from the Sonic
Boom stance is faster than any other person that throws a projectile,
and the Jab Sonic Boom was very slow, and the person using Guile would
walk right behind the Sonic Boom and while their opponent was blocking,
they would throw them, and the Sonic Boom would just continue to scroll
off the screen. Again, this is what I call cheap. Throwing someone out
of their block, when they are not turtling or ticking, is where the BS
and/or cheap discussion comes up.
Tech Hits were mentioned, and yes that is a good argument. I am
definately a SF master (not meaning to sound egotistical). I can do
everyone's combos, pull off all the supers and counters, and air combos
for the cross-overs, but tech hits are my one flaw. Sure, they're easy
to pull off and get you out of throws, but I just can't tech hit. I've
done them either by accident, if I'm trying to do something else and I
get thrown, and I've actually done them on purpose, however very
rarely. I'm sure I'm not the only SF "master" that can't pull off tech
hits. But, if you think about it, you'd really have to be anticipating
the throw from someone you know is about to throw you to do one. You'd
actually have to be used to your opponent's playing style in order to
"press forward and Fierce in the 1st frame of the throw" to do a tech
hit.
On a final note, I don't really worry so much about people who throw or
try to throw me. For one, my opponents have found it really difficult
to throw me. They can't do it when they want to. When I have fought an
opponent that throws, I've had to switch my playing style a bit so he
can't do it consecutively. I'm rarely thrown, but it does happen
sometimes. It's only when I'm thrown repeatedly that I become annoyed.
I personally don't throw. I don't mean to insult anyone, but since
there is this controversy over the whole "throwing is cheap" thing, I
believe that anyone who can win without throwing his/her opponent, can
pull off the supers, chains, air combos, counters, etc. is a better
player and an honorable fighter. Since people think they're cheap, I
don't do them, but still win.
Once again, I hope no one got offended by this. Everyone's entitled
right? I'm more or less tired of the complaints too. If someone's
being thrown and can't tech hit when needed like me, they should do
something about it right? I do...I switch up. It's hard to do it
against the CPU Zangief always throws, but against a human, I can handle
it, sometimes. It all resorts back to the person being thrown....DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Shinpuu Omega
I am entitled to my Opinion.
1-If somebody is waitin' Turtlin' U I will grab him for the rest of the
round. And if they grab me I will grab them. I don't walk up to PPL and
grab them for no reason.
Fightin' Non Throwers
When I play somebody that does'nt grab and they fight straight up. then
I will respect him and not grab him. Becoz I don't really grab PPL.
BEST TIMES TO GRAB!
When somebody misses and attack and they are open 4 NE attack. But I
won't grab them I rather do a devestatin' combo.
When Somebody is Turtlin'. If they do this Grab them the whole fight.
And If they grab U.
Bob Buckman
jab sonic boom into a throw, was a bit cheap because throws were a significant part
of the game then. Now, throws take a very small amount of energy, and if you use tech.
hit, they take almost nothing.
You make a good point about the extent of what can be called cheap.
KaiserTuk
If you can walk up to someone from an entire screen away without them doing
ANYTHING at all they deserve to be kicked out of the F****** arcade
nevermind being thrown. Although when you do manage to do that it is good
for a laugh. I don't mind turtlers though because it sort of is a strategy,
I suppose. That and most turtlers usually are not good players, why else
would they turtle?
KaiserTuk
KaiserTuk
sure that there are a few that are nearly impossible but in the most recent
SF games they can be either teched or supered out of. That and they take off
hardly any damage. I don't consider those Vs. games to be "serious" SF games
so IMO thats what you get for playing an inferior game.
KaiserTuk
Bob Buckman
strategy. It seems to me, that these games have become a battle of who can do
the most devasting and flashy combo. It's still fun, but IMO Street Fighter 2:
Champion Edition was the ultimate test of skill not just in offense, but in
defense as well.
JDBerg1031
this discussion falls under that same old arguement, "What is cheap?" I've
heard people call consistent throwing cheap, turtling cheap, keep aways cheap,
little pixies throwing 5 hitters with two buttons cheap, multiple super move
combos cheap, etc. The street fighting community has got to the point where
the predominant playing style of the guy who just beat you is automatically
cheap. This includes me. If I spend more than a buck trying to beat some guy,
and he does the same general thing for the entire time, I always walk away
thinking "F@#&ing cheap bastard". Then a few hours later I forgive him.
Anyways, throwing is not cheap as long as it is a planned part of your offense,
and since I use Gief 90% of the time, you pretty much have to. But I still get
a twinge of hatred every time the wolvie/spidey teams of the vs. series are
jumping in for a combo, and I'm all set to counter by jumping up and smacking
them, and they start running through the buttons and the first middle one they
hit brings out a throw. Annoys the hell outta me, but I wouldn't call it
cheap. Just F@#&ed up.
Ziggy
KaiserTuk
defensive
>strategy. It seems to me, that these games have become a battle of who can
do
>the most devasting and flashy combo. It's still fun, but IMO Street
Fighter 2:
>Champion Edition was the ultimate test of skill not just in offense, but in
>defense as well.
Champion Edition was my favorite too. Although I keep on hearing SSF2T was
the best. The Vs. games suck because you can literally wiggle the joystick
and mash the buttons and win. I did that once to prove a point... it worked
quite nicely thank you.
KaiserTuk
kevin
I think pretty much "cheap" at least, old school wise, was
when you did something to a short throw or jump in kick,
throw...USUALLY people were ok when they whiffed something or jumped
over you and you threw them. BUT, players that play at any sort of
high level, although they call it "cheap", know that throws are an
important part of the game and will use them to mix up their offense.
A lot of times you don't see these players use ticks in "fun" play
mainly cause of all the fights, etc...caused by it...But if what
you're trying to do is define what shouldn't be used...there isn't
anything..the only move that was cheating was Guile's Invisible
throw....
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:33:12 -0500, Bob Buckman <bob_b...@bmc.com>
wrote:
Chocobo
> Okay,
>
> I have always been reluctant to reply to controversial topics such as
> this, but you 2 are actually respectable and have opinions that are well
> to be considered. I, however, am the outcast, because I am the other
> side of this debate. I do believe that throws are cheap. From day one
> when I heard people complaining about throws being cheap and such, I
> have heard the immediate shut down reply: "It's a part of the game."
> Yes, it's part of the game, but throws, IMHO, are only cheap to an
> extent.
You sir, are a scrub.
> Let's use the example of the XMen vs. SF or any of the other cross-over
> games. I have seen throws done when people are left wide open, are
> continuously ticking or turtling. Those guys display absolutely no
> skill and deserve to be thrown because they are just being annoying and
> dragging the inevitable, their demise. I have also seen throws where a
> person using Ryu (as an example) do something like walk up to their
> opponent, do a low Short which is blocked, and in then walks up to the
> opponent, who is still blocking, and throws them. That is what I
> consider cheap. In the old school play mechanics of SF2, where someone
> used Guile and did a Jab Sonic Boom. Guile's recovery from the Sonic
> Boom stance is faster than any other person that throws a projectile,
> and the Jab Sonic Boom was very slow, and the person using Guile would
> walk right behind the Sonic Boom and while their opponent was blocking,
> they would throw them, and the Sonic Boom would just continue to scroll
> off the screen. Again, this is what I call cheap. Throwing someone out
> of their block, when they are not turtling or ticking, is where the BS
> and/or cheap discussion comes up.
And why is this cheap? Because blocking isn't totally safe for you? Because you'd have
to actually think constantly while playing the game, in order to look out for throws?
> Tech Hits were mentioned, and yes that is a good argument. I am
> definately a SF master (not meaning to sound egotistical).
Ha. Sorry, by definition you aren't an SF master, if you think throws are cheap.
> I can do
> everyone's combos, pull off all the supers and counters, and air combos
> for the cross-overs, but tech hits are my one flaw. Sure, they're easy
> to pull off and get you out of throws, but I just can't tech hit. I've
> done them either by accident, if I'm trying to do something else and I
> get thrown, and I've actually done them on purpose, however very
> rarely.
The ability to pull off a lot of combos means nothing.
> I'm sure I'm not the only SF "master" that can't pull off tech
> hits.
Is this a joke?
> But, if you think about it, you'd really have to be anticipating
> the throw from someone you know is about to throw you to do one. You'd
> actually have to be used to your opponent's playing style in order to
> "press forward and Fierce in the 1st frame of the throw" to do a tech
> hit.
This is true.
> On a final note, I don't really worry so much about people who throw or
> try to throw me. For one, my opponents have found it really difficult
> to throw me. They can't do it when they want to. When I have fought an
> opponent that throws, I've had to switch my playing style a bit so he
> can't do it consecutively. I'm rarely thrown, but it does happen
> sometimes.
What about when someone tries a low short, throw?
> It's only when I'm thrown repeatedly that I become annoyed.
But I thought you rarely got thrown... anyway, if it's happening over and over,
haven't you tried a counterthrow and at least get a tech hit?
> I personally don't throw. I don't mean to insult anyone, but since
> there is this controversy over the whole "throwing is cheap" thing, I
> believe that anyone who can win without throwing his/her opponent, can
> pull off the supers, chains, air combos, counters, etc. is a better
> player and an honorable fighter. Since people think they're cheap, I
> don't do them, but still win.
I personally think that anyone who can win without using special moves or their fierce
and roundhouse buttons is a better player. Does it matter what part of the game they
play without?
> Once again, I hope no one got offended by this. Everyone's entitled
> right?
I'm not offended or anything, just entertained temporarily.
Wenchi Liao
Bob Buckman <bob_b...@bmc.com> wrote:
> I agree that in SF2 throwing after a blocked jab or short kick, or the infamous
>jab sonic boom into a throw, was a bit cheap because throws were a significant part
>of the game then. Now, throws take a very small amount of energy, and if you use tech.
>hit, they take almost nothing.
>
> You make a good point about the extent of what can be called cheap.
uh...wait. Throws are cheap because ``[they] were a significant part of the game?''
So low roundhouse -> fireball is cheap? dragon punch is cheap? The only
thing I've considered "cheap" in recent memory is Sodom's standing
unblockable roundhouse glitch.
WL
Bob Buckman
Wenchi Liao wrote:
> In article <35AB5E17...@bmc.com>,
> Bob Buckman <bob_b...@bmc.com> wrote:
> > I agree that in SF2 throwing after a blocked jab or short kick, or the infamous
> >jab sonic boom into a throw, was a bit cheap because throws were a significant part
> >of the game then. Now, throws take a very small amount of energy, and if you use tech.
> >hit, they take almost nothing.
> >
> > You make a good point about the extent of what can be called cheap.
>
> uh...wait. Throws are cheap because ``[they] were a significant part of the game?''
>
> So low roundhouse -> fireball is cheap? dragon punch is cheap? The only
> thing I've considered "cheap" in recent memory is Sodom's standing
> unblockable roundhouse glitch.
>
> WL
A move like the jab sonic boom with Guile followed by a throw could be considered cheap
because of the amount of damage it used to cause, and that it was almost impossible to stop
if timed perfectly. The dragon punch can be avoided, and the low roundhouse into a
fireball.
I never said it was cheap JUST for being significant.
Dllem
>There will always be people who complain about others being "cheap" or "cheesy" because they are better than them. If people complain about me throwing too much, I just say "complain again and I'll really start throwing you." If then do complain again, I just make every move I do a throw.
Hehe.. Although I'm neutral on this whole throw thing (Don't usually
throw unless provoked), that wouldn't happen around here. If you
acted like a prick like that, you would be hurt. If you said that 2nd
to last sentence to me, even I'd hurt you..
> They usually leave, but they learned their lesson. Whiners are losers, >especially when you can tech hit out of throws these days.
Umm.. losers act like dorks. You should know..
Dllem
_ _
+---ooo-O-ooo-----------+
To reply remove the i
from the email address
+-==--==--=-=--==--==-+
Cheap Stuff:
www.shop4.com (Lots of stuff)
www.pricewatch.com (Computer stuff)
www.dvdexpress.com (Dvd Movies)
+-==--==--=-=--==--==-+
oooO Oooo
Lord Kinboat
KaiserTuk wrote in message <35ab8...@nemo.idirect.com>...
>Almost every single throw trap can be escaped in some way or another. I'm
>sure that there are a few that are nearly impossible but in the most recent
>SF games they can be either teched or supered out of. That and they take
off
>hardly any damage. I don't consider those Vs. games to be "serious" SF
games
>so IMO thats what you get for playing an inferior game.
>
>KaiserTuk
>
>
>
play?
Yeah, the +60hit non-infinites kinda ruin the game, as do the HUGE, monster,
flashy, in your face, button mashing, +20hit, 50% of your life gone supers,
but what are you gonna do...
-Nick (lord kinboat)
ina...@concentric.net
www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/hills/5857
"I wish you'd hurry up and rescue me
So I can be on my miserable way"
-Hendrix
RD
>Ms/Mr.who...@aol.com (WhoaMoses) lightened all our hearts with::
>
>>There will always be people who complain about others being "cheap" or "cheesy" because they are better than them. If people complain about me throwing too much, I just say "complain again and I'll really start throwing you." If then do complain again, I just make every move I do a throw.
>
>Hehe.. Although I'm neutral on this whole throw thing (Don't usually
>throw unless provoked), that wouldn't happen around here. If you
>acted like a prick like that, you would be hurt. If you said that 2nd
>to last sentence to me, even I'd hurt you..
I agree with the first guy =). The threat of violence truly leads me
to believe you have deep insecurities that do not allow you to accept
the fact that you must not be able to tech hit. Especially nowadays,
maybe a couple years ago i woulda bought this argument. But does
anyone really put their money in a pre-tech hit game and either -don't
care, or -know the game enough that it doesn't matter. The only
justification that seems to be provided by "anti-throwers" is that the
other guy is doing an equally annoying tactic. Do we have to go
backwards in skill now? Am i not allowed to exploit your flaws and
avoid your strengths? IMO the only reason we're even having this
discussion is because throws are something that isn't flashy, and is
one of the only moves that can punish a defense. Taking
responsibility for one's own lack of skill is something that a lot of
SF'ers are unwilling to do, therefore they 'lash out'.
Theb52sfan
say im sorry and pretend im gonna let them throw me them combo them again as
they walk in..
.
winners throw. losers complain
I
I
=============================================================
T H E I N V I N C I B L E L A W S O F F I G H T I N G
1. Win
2. There is no such thing as "cheap"
3. There is no such thing as "honor"
4. Master all characters
5. "There can be only one"
The Code of "I" v1.0
{ g(?) a(?) y(?) TLOF(12345) c(T$!) ? } [*(*?)]
I_I...@hotmail.com
=============================================================
KaiserTuk
of
>SF'ers are unwilling to do, therefore they 'lash out'.
Precisely! For example... a while ago I bitched about how Akuma was
overpowered and a bitch to fight in 2i, especially using "weaker" characters
like Urien and Necro. That was a lash out. However, now I have improved and
I kick the shit out of most Akuma players because of a new strategy I
adopted (agressive parrying) that took the wind out of Akuma's game. I am
now a better player all around for it. Unfortunately, the majority of SFers,
when faced with something like this, retreat to the MvC machine to bang away
at the controls and have a few seizures at all those purdy lights being
shone real fast.
KaiserTuk
KaiserTuk
to
>play?
Its about as fun as watching another dumbass Hollywood blockbuster. It is
possible to compare these MvC players to moviegoers who shout out "kickass!"
when the big jetplanes flew over Nicolas Cage's head and blew up the
missiles in The Rock. People mostly blame Capcom for the lack of interest in
these new SF games, but IMO people who go to arcades are getting dumber and
dumber and are looking for the cheap thrill in gameplay. It parallels the
movies almost perfectly. Something truly wonderful and original comes out
(Star Wars, Street Fighter 2) that offers something new and completely blows
people away. Demand goes up and the supply is delivered. However, a few
impatient people get bored and leave while the hardcore people remain,
laughing at what their missing. The producers get worried at the drop in
interest and come up with something that has that extra WHIZZ-BAM! (Vs.
series, "Blockbuster Hollywood Movies") to get the disloyal customers back.
This lowers the quality which, in the end, drives everybody away.
>Yeah, the +60hit non-infinites kinda ruin the game, as do the HUGE,
monster,
>flashy, in your face, button mashing, +20hit, 50% of your life gone supers,
>but what are you gonna do...
I'm not gonna play that game, thats what Im gonna do.
KaiserTuk... in a very bad mood.
Lord Zeku
Sticking to solid facts is the best way to complain. If you allow even
a hint of emotion to enter into your voice, you sound like a dork, and you
betray that your true intentions are in fact emotional. I'm not a master
yet, but I have my goal in sight.
The other day I was playing some A3, and I started dissing Ryu as usual,
and the guys I was talking at stopped talking and joking completely! I
think they were so shocked by my subtle accusations about them and their
character that they wouldn't respond. That just goes to show you how
subjective free will is. Even when someone is willing to fight for
their privileges, without at least some knowledge in their head they're
merely believing whatever their equally ignorant friends have told them.
The best way to handle a no thrower is to say 'Oh I'm sorry! You can have
your throw back.' Hit st fierce as they walk up. If you're feeling ballsy,
just do your super.
Lord Zeku
its course, and then you're a human being again, eternally capable of error,
boredom, and changing your mind. If 'Win' is the premise, then 2 and 4
are viable conclusions. Since honor is totally subjective, you can't
define whether it exists or not. You can only say it's useless for the
purpose of 'Win.' It might be more accurate to say: There is no such thing
as honor in real battle. And as for #5, Whoever is the 'one' is always
changing, unless you're referring to the Almighty.
Onaje Everett
continue to exploit his weakness and then quote the great Bruce Lee when
he complains.
"If it works, use it."
-Bruce Lee
Or...you can always use my favorite:
Deal with it! If you can't, then I guess I'll keep doing it until you
can.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause whiners suck simply because they waste their time
whining when they should be thinking.)
Onaje Everett teve...@pacbell.net
Meaning: The Sensitive One
IRC and ICQ Nicknames: FreshOJ, DaJooce
Other Nicknames: The Juice, Combo "Master", "That Guy That Knows Stuff"
Mantra: "I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Phillipians 3:14
dpan...@kentlaw.edu
NStar <jd...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Let's use the example of the XMen vs. SF or any of the other cross-over
> games.
I can't comment on these VS games, b/c I don't play them much; hardly at all,
pretty much b/c they suck. I'm not sure if throws work the same way as they
do now. One would think they do...
That is what I
> consider cheap. In the old school play mechanics of SF2, where someone
> used Guile and did a Jab Sonic Boom. Guile's recovery from the Sonic
> Boom stance is faster than any other person that throws a projectile,
> and the Jab Sonic Boom was very slow, and the person using Guile would
> walk right behind the Sonic Boom and while their opponent was blocking,
> they would throw them, and the Sonic Boom would just continue to scroll
> off the screen. Again, this is what I call cheap. Throwing someone out
> of their block, when they are not turtling or ticking, is where the BS
> and/or cheap discussion comes up.
This is preventable, and wasn't nearly as annoying as Dhalsim (e.g. drill ->
noogie; drill -> throw; slide -> throw; slide -> noogie). One, you can't be
thrown while in block stun, and once out of block stun, you have the same
opportunity to throw as does the "thrower". This is known as the counter
throw, and in a lot of cases w/Guile and Dhalsim, that's all you can do.
> Tech Hits were mentioned, and yes that is a good argument. I am
> definately a SF master (not meaning to sound egotistical). I can do
> everyone's combos, pull off all the supers and counters, and air combos
> for the cross-overs, but tech hits are my one flaw.
Then there is no way you can honestly call yourself a SF master.
[snip --inept tech-ing ability]
You'd
> actually have to be used to your opponent's playing style in order to
> "press forward and Fierce in the 1st frame of the throw" to do a tech
> hit.
Or, you can just recognize throw patterns, since they are really common, or
know how to guage throw distances, since those are also predetermined. But
of course, that would entitle you to start throwing, which is something
you're not going to do. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot?
> On a final note, I don't really worry so much about people who throw or
> try to throw me. For one, my opponents have found it really difficult
> to throw me. They can't do it when they want to. When I have fought an
> opponent that throws, I've had to switch my playing style a bit so he
> can't do it consecutively. I'm rarely thrown, but it does happen
> sometimes. It's only when I'm thrown repeatedly that I become annoyed.
> I personally don't throw.
But you just said that you're rarely thrown, or at least rarely thrown
consecutively.
I don't mean to insult anyone, but since
> there is this controversy over the whole "throwing is cheap" thing, I
> believe that anyone who can win without throwing his/her opponent, can
> pull off the supers, chains, air combos, counters, etc. is a better
> player and an honorable fighter. Since people think they're cheap, I
> don't do them, but still win.
Little do you know that throwing does indeed take skill. Only scrubs think
that throws don't take any skills. When two "experts" play against each
other, you'll notice not too many throws, b/c it becomes harder to throw
against someone who knows how to throw. So, to your credit, you do seem to
realize that you have to change your playing pattern a bit, to avoid throws.
And, oh please, don't start bringing in "honorable" fighting. If you miss a
dp, whiff a whatever, you should be glad that you only got thrown. Do you
really want to eat a huge combo? Seems kinda masochistic...
> Once again, I hope no one got offended by this. Everyone's entitled
> right?
I just get offended by people posting garbage on the internet, when they
already know the arguments.
Dale
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Onaje Everett
stance. However, your opinion is about to get mauled for one simple
reason: I used to be you.
NStar wrote:
>
> Okay,
>
> I have always been reluctant to reply to controversial topics such as
> this, but you 2 are actually respectable and have opinions that are well
> to be considered. I, however, am the outcast, because I am the other
> side of this debate. I do believe that throws are cheap. From day one
> when I heard people complaining about throws being cheap and such, I
> have heard the immediate shut down reply: "It's a part of the game."
> Yes, it's part of the game, but throws, IMHO, are only cheap to an
> extent.
This is a mistake that people seem to make about a lot of things. There
are NO degrees of separation when it comes to cheapness. Either it is
or it isn't. Point blank.
> Let's use the example of the XMen vs. SF or any of the other cross-over
> games. I have seen throws done when people are left wide open, are
> continuously ticking or turtling. Those guys display absolutely no
> skill and deserve to be thrown because they are just being annoying and
> dragging the inevitable, their demise. I have also seen throws where a
> person using Ryu (as an example) do something like walk up to their
> opponent, do a low Short which is blocked, and in then walks up to the
> opponent, who is still blocking, and throws them. That is what I
> consider cheap.
Why? Whether it's a tick-throw or a walk-up throw, the counters for
them are EXACTLY the same.
1. Jump
2. Counter-throw
3. Stick out something quick and fast
> In the old school play mechanics of SF2, where someone
> used Guile and did a Jab Sonic Boom. Guile's recovery from the Sonic
> Boom stance is faster than any other person that throws a projectile,
> and the Jab Sonic Boom was very slow, and the person using Guile would
> walk right behind the Sonic Boom and while their opponent was blocking,
> they would throw them, and the Sonic Boom would just continue to scroll
> off the screen. Again, this is what I call cheap. Throwing someone out
> of their block, when they are not turtling or ticking, is where the BS
> and/or cheap discussion comes up.
School is now in session.
Have you ever tried to throw someone like this? Ever noticed how you
simply will not grab someone if they're still sliding back?
You CANNOT grab someone while they're in block stun. Period. It just
cannot happen (unless you're talking about MvC Zangief, and even those
throws are avoidable).
> Tech Hits were mentioned, and yes that is a good argument. I am
> definately a SF master (not meaning to sound egotistical).
No. Let's correct that right now. If you think that something that is
already in the game is cheap...and you don't use it, you are neglecting
two things: applied knowledge and mind game playing ability. When it
comes to throws, it's all about mind games. So, if you're not using
throws (and all of their set-ups) to your advantage, you are at a
serious disadvantage against those that WILL use it...especially if they
also have the same amount of manual dexterity and applied knowledge as
you.
(Manual dexterity, applied knowledge, and mind games are the three
components of SKILL, BTW.)
> I can do
> everyone's combos, pull off all the supers and counters, and air combos
> for the cross-overs, but tech hits are my one flaw.
Beleive it or not....you're really not that special. There are lots of
people out there, myself included, that can do those things. Your mind
game playing ability, however, is the one component of skill that's not
only dependent on you...but also on your opponent, as well.
> Sure, they're easy
> to pull off and get you out of throws, but I just can't tech hit.
Deal with it. Get better. Practice. I can do them. Why? I know when
people will throw me.
Only predictable people get thrown.
(I hope you're taking notes 'cause I had to learn this myself.)
Maybe you need to be in a few national tourneys.
> I've
> done them either by accident, if I'm trying to do something else and I
> get thrown, and I've actually done them on purpose, however very
> rarely. I'm sure I'm not the only SF "master" that can't pull off tech
> hits.
I think you might be one of a few, actually.
> But, if you think about it, you'd really have to be anticipating
> the throw from someone you know is about to throw you to do one.
Hello! I think he's got it!! :)
> You'd
> actually have to be used to your opponent's playing style in order to
> "press forward and Fierce in the 1st frame of the throw" to do a tech
> hit.
EXACTLY!!! In other words, when your opponent threw you, THEY KNEW WHAT
YOU WERE DOING!!
Solution: Don't be predictable!!
> On a final note, I don't really worry so much about people who throw or
> try to throw me. For one, my opponents have found it really difficult
> to throw me. They can't do it when they want to. When I have fought an
> opponent that throws, I've had to switch my playing style a bit so he
> can't do it consecutively. I'm rarely thrown, but it does happen
> sometimes. It's only when I'm thrown repeatedly that I become annoyed.
You become annoyed when you're messing up and you have no one to blame
but yourself. That's natural.
> I personally don't throw. I don't mean to insult anyone, but since
> there is this controversy over the whole "throwing is cheap" thing, I
> believe that anyone who can win without throwing his/her opponent, can
> pull off the supers, chains, air combos, counters, etc. is a better
> player and an honorable fighter. Since people think they're cheap, I
> don't do them, but still win.
Heh...they used to call me "Bushido" fighter. Now, I realize that, in
fact, it takes more skill to know what your opponent is thinking and use
that in inflicting damage in ANY way possible, rather than limit
yourself.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause only predictable people get thrown...and you'd know
this if you went to #capcom on IRC.)
Onaje Everett
>
> I agree that in SF2 throwing after a blocked jab or short kick, or the infamous
> jab sonic boom into a throw, was a bit cheap because throws were a significant part
> of the game then. Now, throws take a very small amount of energy, and if you use tech.
> hit, they take almost nothing.
>
> You make a good point about the extent of what can be called cheap.
No, he doesn't.
The reason why throws were "cheap" in SF2:WW was because there was no
sort of reversal system. Because of that, you couldn't counter a throw
(for the most part) even if you knew it was coming. BTW, THAT is the
only time something can be called "cheap".
There are NO degrees of cheapness. Recognize!!!
--
Bottom Line: ('cause it's only "cheap" when you see it coming or you
KNOW it's coming and you STILL can't do anything about it.)
Onaje Everett
>
> Throws Not Cheap! (My opinion)
> I am entitled to my Opinion.
>
> 1-If somebody is waitin' Turtlin' U I will grab him for the rest of the
> grab them for no reason.
> When I play somebody that does'nt grab and they fight straight up. then
> I will respect him and not grab him. Becoz I don't really grab PPL.
> BEST TIMES TO GRAB!
> When somebody misses and attack and they are open 4 NE attack. But I
> won't grab them I rather do a devestatin' combo.
> When Somebody is Turtlin'. If they do this Grab them the whole fight.
> And If they grab U.
Go to a tournament and try to win using this strategy. It WON'T WORK!!!
For goodness sake, people!
I shudder to think that I was once like this. Oh, the humanity.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause only PREDICTABLE people get thrown.)
Onaje Everett
>
> Live and learn.
>
> I
>
> =============================================================
> T H E I N V I N C I B L E L A W S O F F I G H T I N G
>
> 2. There is no such thing as "cheap"
> 3. There is no such thing as "honor"
> 4. Master all characters
> 5. "There can be only one"
Say it...and then say it again.
Just note one small thing, though: If you try your best and lose, you
shouldn't have any regrets. You should merely strive to improve.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause 'I' actually does have a point when it comes down
to it.)
Onaje Everett teve...@pacbell.net
Meaning: The Sensitive One
IRC and ICQ Nicknames: FreshOJ, DaJooce
Other Nicknames: The Juice, Combo "Master", "That Guy That Knows Stuff"
Mantra: "I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Phillipians 3:14
(I can't beleive I just agreed with "I". *shudder*)
NStar
Regardless of what I say, regardless how considerate I am for others and
their opinions, I am the one to get insulted and ridiculed. I spoke an
opinion, and did not insult anyone. Some replied to my statements and
didn't insult me, but yet, I get called a scrub because I believe that
there is a such thing as "cheap" to an extent.
The reason some of my opponents do find it difficult to throw me is
because I can (sometimes) sense when they're trying it. Those times I
do get thrown are those times I am not thinking...at that point in the
game. I can evade throws, but not necessarily by a tech hit. On the
subject of blocking being totally safe for me, there isn't a such thing
as "totally" safe in a fighter, unless you plan to just sit there and
watch your character(s) and admire and be in awe of the amount of
animation Capcom put in their characters battle stance. In this case,
no one will be in danger of being hit.
Sure, being able to pull off a lot of hits in combos and a lot of combos
period don't indicate skill, after all Killer Instinct proved that
theory right *smile*, but to be a so called "master" of the game, you'd
have to know how to do them, and have the ability to do them. Sure, a
SF master is someone who can effectively use every aspect of the game
Capcom put in it, correct, but what about those of us that choose not to
do ONE of those things, which just happens to be throwing....I could
throw if I wanted to...I just don't. I don't throw because, one, I
don't like being thrown myself, and two, I don't want anyone complaining
about me not having skill or playing cheap. I may not be Japanese, but
when it comes to my gaming, I take my gaming seriously, just like them,
and criticism of the way I play isn't cool. No one likes it.
Look, I could say "I'm no scrub" or "I can play" and I'm a master, yada
yada yada all day, and still not convince anyone. I'd have to display
it, like I've had to do to before. I don't mean to say anything to
become an enemy or antagonist to you or anyone, Chocobo, but gamers,
true gamers, don't like being accused of "scrubery", if you
will...*smile* I'm sure you're a gamer also, and I wouldn't do that to
you. I, as well as some other SFers, just choose not to throw....
After all, since Capcom and other companies have tweaked their fighters
so that throws take very little energy, something must be flawed with
them, right?....or did they do it for no reason?
Chocobo wrote:
>
> NStar wrote:
>
> > Okay,
> >
> > I have always been reluctant to reply to controversial topics such as
> > this, but you 2 are actually respectable and have opinions that are well
> > to be considered. I, however, am the outcast, because I am the other
> > side of this debate. I do believe that throws are cheap. From day one
> > when I heard people complaining about throws being cheap and such, I
> > have heard the immediate shut down reply: "It's a part of the game."
> > Yes, it's part of the game, but throws, IMHO, are only cheap to an
> > extent.
>
> You sir, are a scrub.
>
> > Let's use the example of the XMen vs. SF or any of the other cross-over
> > games. I have seen throws done when people are left wide open, are
> > continuously ticking or turtling. Those guys display absolutely no
> > skill and deserve to be thrown because they are just being annoying and
> > dragging the inevitable, their demise. I have also seen throws where a
> > person using Ryu (as an example) do something like walk up to their
> > opponent, do a low Short which is blocked, and in then walks up to the
> > opponent, who is still blocking, and throws them. That is what I
> > consider cheap. In the old school play mechanics of SF2, where someone
> > used Guile and did a Jab Sonic Boom. Guile's recovery from the Sonic
> > Boom stance is faster than any other person that throws a projectile,
> > and the Jab Sonic Boom was very slow, and the person using Guile would
> > walk right behind the Sonic Boom and while their opponent was blocking,
> > they would throw them, and the Sonic Boom would just continue to scroll
> > off the screen. Again, this is what I call cheap. Throwing someone out
> > of their block, when they are not turtling or ticking, is where the BS
> > and/or cheap discussion comes up.
>
> And why is this cheap? Because blocking isn't totally safe for you? Because you'd have
> to actually think constantly while playing the game, in order to look out for throws?
>
> > Tech Hits were mentioned, and yes that is a good argument. I am
> > definately a SF master (not meaning to sound egotistical).
>
> Ha. Sorry, by definition you aren't an SF master, if you think throws are cheap.
>
> > I can do
> > everyone's combos, pull off all the supers and counters, and air combos
> > for the cross-overs, but tech hits are my one flaw. Sure, they're easy
> > to pull off and get you out of throws, but I just can't tech hit. I've
> > done them either by accident, if I'm trying to do something else and I
> > get thrown, and I've actually done them on purpose, however very
> > rarely.
>
> The ability to pull off a lot of combos means nothing.
>
> > I'm sure I'm not the only SF "master" that can't pull off tech
> > hits.
>
> Is this a joke?
>
> > But, if you think about it, you'd really have to be anticipating
> > the throw from someone you know is about to throw you to do one. You'd
> > actually have to be used to your opponent's playing style in order to
> > "press forward and Fierce in the 1st frame of the throw" to do a tech
> > hit.
>
> This is true.
>
> > On a final note, I don't really worry so much about people who throw or
> > try to throw me. For one, my opponents have found it really difficult
> > to throw me. They can't do it when they want to. When I have fought an
> > opponent that throws, I've had to switch my playing style a bit so he
> > can't do it consecutively. I'm rarely thrown, but it does happen
> > sometimes.
>
> What about when someone tries a low short, throw?
>
> > It's only when I'm thrown repeatedly that I become annoyed.
>
> But I thought you rarely got thrown... anyway, if it's happening over and over,
> haven't you tried a counterthrow and at least get a tech hit?
>
> > I personally don't throw. I don't mean to insult anyone, but since
> > there is this controversy over the whole "throwing is cheap" thing, I
> > believe that anyone who can win without throwing his/her opponent, can
> > pull off the supers, chains, air combos, counters, etc. is a better
> > player and an honorable fighter. Since people think they're cheap, I
> > don't do them, but still win.
>
> I personally think that anyone who can win without using special moves or their fierce
> and roundhouse buttons is a better player. Does it matter what part of the game they
> play without?
>
> > Once again, I hope no one got offended by this. Everyone's entitled
> > right?
>
Onaje Everett
>
> After all, since Capcom and other companies have tweaked their fighters
> so that throws take very little energy, something must be flawed with
> them, right?....or did they do it for no reason?
Okay.....if you really want to know.
They did it simply because "scrubs" whined about them being cheap.
Remember: Capcom made the Alpha series to re-attract old players, but
mainly to attract new players. How did they do this? They made the
game easier to play. One way of doing this was to decrease the throw
range and decrease throw damage. Why? Because "scrubs" and newbies
have literally zero mind game ability. How are they going to actually
predict what a good player is going to do? They don't...which is why
they lose to people that can throw (via tick-throws, walk-up throws, and
other throwing situations) well. They are PREDICTABLE.
This trend then spread to the Marvel series, though MSH and XSF
surprisingly left in juggles after throws (which actually turned out to
be a good thing as those made you think about throws more instead of
blocking all day long). And then...it even poisoned the Three series.
BTW, Tech Hits were also one of those things that were to make the game
easier to play.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause when you ask a question, you'd better be ready to
take the answer.)
Shinpuu Omega
Go to a tournament and try to win using this strategy. It WON'T WORK!!!
For goodness sake, people!
I shudder to think that I was once like this. Oh, the humanity.
--
I want to play. I played that same way in Alpha 2 and I gotten win
streaks of 20-30 in Playland and Broadway Arcade. It does'nt work in
Second Impact because I am not that good.
Remember when A2 first came out and this guy got 96 wins He did not grab
1 time. And he played against PPL that grabbed. Grabs are not cheap they
R just not in my arsenal of attacks. Unless I feel the person I am
playin' deserves to get grabbed.
Chocobo
> Regardless of what I say, regardless how considerate I am for others and
> their opinions, I am the one to get insulted and ridiculed.
You declared yourself an SF master, and then went on to say that throws are cheap... that's
asking for it.
> I spoke an
> opinion, and did not insult anyone. Some replied to my statements and
> didn't insult me, but yet, I get called a scrub because I believe that
> there is a such thing as "cheap" to an extent.
>
Right.
> I don't throw because, one, I
> don't like being thrown myself, and two, I don't want anyone complaining
> about me not having skill or playing cheap. I may not be Japanese, but
> when it comes to my gaming, I take my gaming seriously, just like them,
> and criticism of the way I play isn't cool. No one likes it.
Who cares what some unskilled player thinks of your playing style? I've seen people complain
about fireball/dragon punch patterns, and of course many about throwing. These people don't
know how to play the game and are just whining because they didn't win, and I don't respect
the opinion of a person like that one bit. If your goal is to avoid complaints on your
playing style, then don't throw. If you're interested in high skill competition and playing
your best, then you should use everything in the game. Why is it that throws are considered
cheap, and not dragon punches, or super moves, or crossups? I don't understand.
> I don't mean to say anything to
> become an enemy or antagonist to you or anyone, Chocobo, but gamers,
> true gamers, don't like being accused of "scrubery", if you
> will...
I know.
> After all, since Capcom and other companies have tweaked their fighters
> so that throws take very little energy, something must be flawed with
> them, right?....or did they do it for no reason?
Ha. Capcom continues to make garbage to please the crowds, so that they can make more money.
They keep weakening throws because people who get mad that they can't safely block for the
entire round complain about it, and Capcom wants to make everyone nice and happy again.
Capcom also has been making games full of infinites, unstoppable patterns, and extremely
overpowered characters... I guess that was done in order to improve the games too? Well it's
not... they just don't know how to make a good game anymore.
Bob Buckman
realism. I know that many aspects of the game are unrealistic, but couldn't
they at least make the characters somewhat realistic.
In SF2:WW, certain characters had certain levels of endurance. Chun- Li
could not hit Zangief as hard as Zangief could her. It seems to me now that
any little character can throw the biggest and strongest characters and take
just as much energy as anyone else.
I feel this comes from Capcom trying to make everyone equal, but everyone
should not be equal. Certain characters are stronger, some are faster, and
some can just plain take more abuse.
EViLwebs
Ahem. While I am against throws personally (grabs are another
thing entirely), I don't really care if other people use
them. Personally, I may throw every now and again, but I
mix it up with other attacks. I don't care if people
try to throw me or not-- if not, that's fine (and around here,
most people DON'T throw *all that* much); if they do, I'm
wary enough to deal with it.
If a thrower beats me, it's because they're a better player
than me, not because they were playing with throws.
Personally, I don't like throws because they just look so
damn lame. Call me foolish, but I believe that it's possible
to develop an elegant style which, yes, can include throws,
but is balanced to include pressuring, overheads, traps,
counters, all of which are easily as important as throws.
Some early stuff definitely *was* cheap (especially when
everyone was not yet a SF grandmaster, whereas today it's
difficult to find someone who *isn't* a good player) ,
like early-SF ticks, sonic boom/throw, but these glitches
have been eradicated over time. That's not to say they
didn't require some amount of skill and tenacity to do,
but they were a near-unescapable abuse of the game engine.
Nowadays, the whole throw argument is over-rated anyway. If
you're better than someone else, it's because you have a
better understanding and execution of the game, not because
you do/don't use throws, and vice versa.
--
Web-Slinger/EViLwebs etc.
"I think, our image is really not having one. That is our
image: No image. Which is an image as well, of course."
- Dave Rotheray
[edit reply address for e-mail reply]
N64 Gazetta -- http://www.n64gazetta.com
ICQ -- 2429540
EViLwebs
>
> NStar wrote:
>
> > Regardless of what I say, regardless how considerate I am for others and
> > their opinions, I am the one to get insulted and ridiculed.
>
> asking for it.
>
Don't worry about Choc, NStar. He's always trying to score
brownie points by rediculing others and sucking up to
old-schoolers (who I'm sure have all pissed off long ago).
All opinions are to be respected, provided they are well
backed up with your own beliefs, as are yours. That's all
this thread is about: OPINIONS. There is no right or wrong
on something which isn't black and white.
At times, throws are a neccessity such as in SF3/2i when
you double-parry Gill's knee-strike, the only effective
follow-up for a lot of characters is to throw him, or else
the parry is effectively wasted. It's boring and has about
as much style as a flower-wielding hippy, but it's not
cheap when you're earned the right to throw.
NStar
Thanks Onaje. I want to commend you as well for your "mauling" of my
post. *smile* Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate your
comments. After all, this whole thread was for a debate, and
personally, you made some very sharp, and respectable rebutals.
Although I've been playing all the SFers since World Warriors back in
'92, but I don't play the cross-overs (Versus games), I guess since no
one throws me or can't throw me, I just comply with their methods and
don't do it back to them. Granted, I'm still not too fond of the idea
of throwing my opponent when I could just do a super and take more
energy or be at risk of them tech hitting, I guess I should incorporate
it within my style. I wasn't trying to say that I'm special when I
mentioned all the things I could do, because it's nothing special or new
about them. Everyone can do them. I was just trying to prove my
legitimacy of being a good player. As I said before, I do punish
turtlers and tickers by throwing them, but like before, they deserve
it. I still don't think that just because "we" choose not to throw
makes us scrubs. More or less, I believe that those perpetrating skill
and then complaining or making excuses for their loss are the ones that
are scrubs, mainly because they still have a lot to learn. I can avoid
throws possibly 95% of the time, but when I am, I don't complain about
it. I just retaliate, so to speak.
Once again, thanks for your comments, they are well worth consideration
and admiration. I still have more thinking to do..... ;-)
RD
>I done told you once: a strict winning philosophy is useless. Pride runs
>its course, and then you're a human being again, eternally capable of error,
>boredom, and changing your mind. If 'Win' is the premise, then 2 and 4
>are viable conclusions. Since honor is totally subjective, you can't
>define whether it exists or not. You can only say it's useless for the
>purpose of 'Win.' It might be more accurate to say: There is no such thing
>as honor in real battle. And as for #5, Whoever is the 'one' is always
>changing, unless you're referring to the Almighty.
First of all that's been said way too many times, so i'll just give a
quick rundown. The whole point of the laws is to be 'unhuman' aka the
eternal street fighter master. How many of us have never lied, cheat
,stolen, etc... so should i run off to church and tell them that the
commandments are useless cause we're humans =)?
But i think if some people have trouble winning, you'll find the
opposite of one of the laws (because if all else fails, they didn't
'win' anyway =). Given the argument above, it seems most of us have
some sort of unhumanly rules to live by, so i don't see why the fact
that they are somewhat true automatically implies you have to
sacrifice your life to make them not false =).
(Aside from the issue, i guess if you state the converses, they could
also be called the laws of losing =) )
Again, a lot of laws are very useful even though their mostly
inattainable, most physics equations only work in a vacumn, but we
learn them anyway, but if you don't want to sacrifice your life to
physics, don't worry about them too much, same deal goes here.
kevin
>
>Some early stuff definitely *was* cheap (especially when
>everyone was not yet a SF grandmaster, whereas today it's
>difficult to find someone who *isn't* a good player) ,
>like early-SF ticks, sonic boom/throw, but these glitches
>have been eradicated over time. That's not to say they
>didn't require some amount of skill and tenacity to do,
>but they were a near-unescapable abuse of the game engine.
>
unescapable..when they were HARDLY that.....in fact, sonic boom throw
was probably one of the worst ticks out there...in fact, Guile was one
of the worst tickers in the entire game.....
Granted, in Classic, throws were much harder to counter and
some ticks required more than just a "reverse throw" attempt...but
that's pretty much how it's been through ST...where you couldn't
always reverse throw a tick (certain characters vs. certain characters
w/ a specific setup)....
>
>
>Nowadays, the whole throw argument is over-rated anyway. If
>you're better than someone else, it's because you have a
>better understanding and execution of the game, not because
>you do/don't use throws, and vice versa.
>
>
Ultima
Rambling factor: So-So
Warnig: read at your own discretion
***********************************
Chocobo wrote:
>
> NStar wrote:
>
> > Regardless of what I say, regardless how considerate I am for others and
> > their opinions, I am the one to get insulted and ridiculed.
>
> You declared yourself an SF master, and then went on to say that throws are cheap... that's asking for it.
The way he stated it, I have to agree... He came off as being arrogant,
somehow... No offense, but one should be *very* careful when dubbing
oneself an "SF Master"... Especially on this NG...
[some crap deleted]
> > I don't throw because, one, I don't like being thrown myself, and two, I don't want anyone complaining about me not having skill or playing cheap. I may not be Japanese, but when it comes to my gaming, I take my gaming seriously, just like them, and criticism of the way I play isn't cool. No one likes it.
> Who cares what some unskilled player thinks of your playing style? I've seen people complain about fireball/dragon punch patterns, and of course many about throwing. These people don't know how to play the game and are just whining because they didn't win, and I don't respect
> the opinion of a person like that one bit.
Well, I complain about FB/DP patterns (mainly because they're boring)
and I used to complain about throws (when they did too much damage;
still not *too* keen on tick-throws, but I will use them); yet, I can
overcome FB/DP traps with ease and I throw like a barbarian (tm some
clown who complained about excessive throws in ST at ECC3). So I
complain about stuff I have little or not trouble dealing with, or stuff
that I use myself... Makes sense? Absolutely not, but it's my right to
complain.. :\
> If your goal is to avoid complaints on your playing style, then don't throw. If you're interested in high skill competition and playing
> your best, then you should use everything in the game. Why is it that throws are considered cheap, and not dragon punches, or super moves, or crossups? I don't understand.
*Shrug* GUess people don't like moves that go through their defenses.
> > I don't mean to say anything to
> > become an enemy or antagonist to you or anyone, Chocobo, but gamers,
> > true gamers, don't like being accused of "scrubery", if you
> > will...
> I know.
Ha ha ha... ENT!
> > After all, since Capcom and other companies have tweaked their fighters so that throws take very little energy, something must be flawed with them, right?....or did they do it for no reason?
> Ha. Capcom continues to make garbage to please the crowds, so that they can make more money. They keep weakening throws because people who get mad that they can't safely block for the entire round complain about it, and Capcom wants to make everyone nice and happy again.
Makes you wonder why they don't remove them entirely? Guess KI taught
them ahead of time what that idea produces...
> Capcom also has been making games full of infinites, unstoppable patterns, and extremely overpowered characters... I guess that was done in order to improve the games too? Well it's not... they just don't know how to make a good game anymore.
Inifintes are glitches... More lack of testing than anything planned. I
can't say anything for the over-powered characters though..
Do you agree with the guy who says there's no such thing as an
over-powered character, only inexperienced players..?
--
Jamie "Ultima" Stoute
http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Fan art, a ton of junk, and
some miscellaneous rambling...
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1/main.html - The Street Fighter
RPG Manifesto!!!
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{V+ MB Rl Cr[SFA2] I[III] Ax[I,III]-->++}
[ac- +cc+(!ccRl&MB) ch- cn- c m+ 2+ n++ os+ p+ r@++ sp- st ta--
t(t+SCR) tm-:- tr-:- th--@- v+(v++SFA2)]
"If an arcade doesn't contain some version of SF or SS in it,
then's it's not an arcade"
Onaje Everett
>
> Chocobo wrote:
> >
> > NStar wrote:
> >
> > > Regardless of what I say, regardless how considerate I am for others and
> > > their opinions, I am the one to get insulted and ridiculed.
> >
> > asking for it.
> >
>
> brownie points by rediculing others and sucking up to
> old-schoolers (who I'm sure have all pissed off long ago).
You'd be surprised who's left.
> All opinions are to be respected, provided they are well
> backed up with your own beliefs, as are yours. That's all
> this thread is about: OPINIONS. There is no right or wrong
> on something which isn't black and white.
However, this IS black and white. All you have to do is ask one simple
question:
Is there a counter for it if you're expecting it?
If the answer is yes, which it IS, then it's not cheap. Case closed.
Get some mind game skill.
> At times, throws are a neccessity such as in SF3/2i when
> you double-parry Gill's knee-strike, the only effective
> follow-up for a lot of characters is to throw him, or else
> the parry is effectively wasted. It's boring and has about
> as much style as a flower-wielding hippy, but it's not
> cheap when you're earned the right to throw.
WHAT?!
I can definitely speak on this one because one of my specialties is
figuring out ways to maximize opportunities. If you double-parry Gill's
knee-strike, you can dash forward and then combo...you can throw...you
can do a special move...you can super. PLENTY of options.
Explore.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause throwing is only cheap to those that don't know how
to counter it.)
Onaje Everett
>
> Okay,
>
> Thanks Onaje. I want to commend you as well for your "mauling" of my
> post. *smile*
I accept your gratitude. :) I aim to please.
> Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate your
> comments. After all, this whole thread was for a debate, and
> personally, you made some very sharp, and respectable rebutals.
"If it works, use it." :) That's what I live by. When it comes to
debates on things of this nature, there's nothing better than the truth.
> Although I've been playing all the SFers since World Warriors back in
> '92, but I don't play the cross-overs (Versus games), I guess since no
> one throws me or can't throw me, I just comply with their methods and
> don't do it back to them.
I can admit to doing this....sometimes. Personally, I think that
tick-throwing is actually better if used as a last resort. Get your
opponent so focused on blocking your combos when you attack that they
begin to feel safe when they block...then....throw 'em.
Of course, when I'm REALLY on....I throw like a madman.
> Granted, I'm still not too fond of the idea
> of throwing my opponent when I could just do a super and take more
> energy or be at risk of them tech hitting, I guess I should incorporate
> it within my style.
You should...trust me. You'll begin to win more because people tend to
focus more on their applied knowledge (i.e. combos, zoning tactics, how
to block certain moves, etc.) more than they do on mind games. Plus,
the ability to play mind games well helps YOU to control the momentum of
the fight. If you get inside your opponent's head, you literaly have
the match simply because you know what they're going to do, you can make
THEM do what you want them to do, AND you can humiliate them for it. :)
:)
> I wasn't trying to say that I'm special when I
> mentioned all the things I could do, because it's nothing special or new
> about them. Everyone can do them. I was just trying to prove my
> legitimacy of being a good player.
I've been there...but the truth of the matter is: You'll be stuck at
exactly the same level you're at if you don't try to develop ALL of the
facets of your game. You might be good, but you could be great.
> As I said before, I do punish
> turtlers and tickers by throwing them, but like before, they deserve
> it.
It's not a matter of "deserving" it...it's a matter of doing what works
to win. It's being the best you can be and giving your best effort in
doing so. THAT, BTW, is what actually leads to having fun.
> I still don't think that just because "we" choose not to throw
> makes us scrubs.
Maybe not in the "applied knowledge" or "manual dexterity" departments,
but it certainly will in the "mind game" department. Mind games, as
I've said earlier, are the final frontier of skill. (You might not have
been here long enough to have seen me post that.)
> More or less, I believe that those perpetrating skill
> and then complaining or making excuses for their loss are the ones that
> are scrubs, mainly because they still have a lot to learn. I can avoid
> throws possibly 95% of the time, but when I am, I don't complain about
> it. I just retaliate, so to speak.
Thank you. That's all you have to do. Deal with it.
> Once again, thanks for your comments, they are well worth consideration
> and admiration. I still have more thinking to do..... ;-)
If I can't provoke thought....then why post? :) Glad to know my words
got through.
BTW, PLEASE cut the unneeded text after you reply. Thanks.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause I like making sense...especially when it helps
people.)
Onaje Everett
>
> Little do you know that throwing does indeed take skill. Only scrubs think
> that throws don't take any skills. When two "experts" play against each
> other, you'll notice not too many throws, b/c it becomes harder to throw
> against someone who knows how to throw.
Just wanted to add one little thing to this post:
Anybody heard of a guy named James Chen? Yeah...the author of the Combo
FAQs for the first three Marvel games. I remember playing him in an SF3
tournament in Golfland last summer. He used Alex...I used Ken. He
knocked me down and then did the most amazing thing....he Power Bombed
me. I was like...okay...he's not going to do that again. He did it
again. I had a full meter. Okay....he's....NOT going to do THAT
again. He did it again, anyway. Then he stood over me a fourth time.
I went for the Shinryuken...he blocked. I...got Power Bombed...AGAIN!!
(Yeah...I was K.O.ed finally.)
Had it not been James Chen and had I not been so tentative, I probably
would've landed that Shinryuken on the third try. But, the point
is...he KNEW what I was going to do. THAT takes skill.
BTW, James Chen and myself are the people that came up with the three
components of skill thing that I keep posting about.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause James Chen is still THE combo master...and TZW is
up there, too.)
Onaje Everett
>
> IMHO, throws are never cheap. However, there are times when the
> best thing to do is not to throw. For example, throwing Ken as
> he lands from a blocked Shouryureppa is a major damage-inflicting
> opportunity gone to waste. Also, there are defensive throws (ie.
> sac throws, walk-under throws, and counterthrows) and there are
> offensive throws (ie. walk-up throws and ticks). IMHO, it is
> important to use each to your advantage where appropriate.
>
> But I digress; I'm essentially preaching to the converted.
But it sounds so good, brother Paul. :)
Yeah...I forgot to mention the difference between offensive and
defensive throwing when I posted.
Good post, Paul.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause if someone knows you're going to throw them, they
most likely won't let you.)
Paul Cordeiro
<sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.spam.sucks> wrote:
[...]
>At times, throws are a neccessity such as in SF3/2i when
>you double-parry Gill's knee-strike, the only effective
>follow-up for a lot of characters is to throw him, or else
>the parry is effectively wasted.
Huh? There is at least one thing each character can do after
a double-parried knee-strike that would be easier to land on
Gill (and somewhat more effective, too) than a throw.
ARK: Shouryuken, Shin Shouryuken, Shinryuken, Messatsu Gou
Rasen
Y/Y: Senkyutai, You Hou, standing Forward into juggle (?)
Ibuki: Hien, standing Roundhouse into juggle (?)
Elena: Scratch Wheel
Alex: DP+K (I forget what it's called... Air Stampede?)
Hugo: Backbreaker, Megaton Press (?)
Dudley: Uppercut, Rocket Uppercut (?)
Necro: Electricity, Magnetic Storm (?)
Oro: Kishin Riki, Yagyou Dama (?), standing Strong into
juggle (?)
Urien: Metallic Sphere
Sean: Dragon Smash, Hadou Burst, Shouryu Cannon (?)
When it comes to Gill, I prefer to just throw after a blocked
shoulder ram or when Gill inches within range while I'm in the
corner. It's more effective to throw then than to reward your
successful double-parry with piddly damage. Besides, countering
a parried knee-strike with many of the moves listed above (esp.
the DP-type moves) positions you very nicely for a jump-in combo
that Gill doesn't seem to block very often.
>It's boring and has about
>as much style as a flower-wielding hippy, but it's not
>cheap when you're earned the right to throw.
IMHO, throws are never cheap. However, there are times when the
best thing to do is not to throw. For example, throwing Ken as
he lands from a blocked Shouryureppa is a major damage-inflicting
opportunity gone to waste. Also, there are defensive throws (ie.
sac throws, walk-under throws, and counterthrows) and there are
offensive throws (ie. walk-up throws and ticks). IMHO, it is
important to use each to your advantage where appropriate.
But I digress; I'm essentially preaching to the converted.
--
Paul Cordeiro, juuhachisai: p...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
I
RD, you continue to impress me...
You seem to be one of the only posters here who understand The Laws of
Fighting. It is commendable and appreciated.
I
=============================================================
T H E I N V I N C I B L E L A W S O F F I G H T I N G
1. Win
2. There is no such thing as "cheap"
3. There is no such thing as "honor"
4. Master all characters
5. "There can be only one"
The Code of "I" v1.0
{ g(?) a(?) y(?) TLOF(12345) c(T$!) ? } [*(*?)]
I_I...@hotmail.com
=============================================================
I
>
>I done told you once: a strict winning philosophy is useless. Pride runs
>its course, and then you're a human being again, eternally capable of error,
>boredom, and changing your mind. If 'Win' is the premise, then 2 and 4
>are viable conclusions. Since honor is totally subjective, you can't
>define whether it exists or not. You can only say it's useless for the
>purpose of 'Win.' It might be more accurate to say: There is no such thing
>as honor in real battle. And as for #5, Whoever is the 'one' is always
>changing, unless you're referring to the Almighty.
>
>>2. There is no such thing as "cheap"
>>3. There is no such thing as "honor"
>>4. Master all characters
>>5. "There can be only one"
I remember you posted a brilliant deduction on why "Honor" does not exist.
However, this post is disappointing...what happened?
Read my program if you haven't already. "Cheap" and "Honor" are non-existant
within the logical syntax of The Laws of Fighting program.
Phillip McCoy
friend of mine almost got his ass beat while trying to talk shit to a Tekken
3 player. My friend was better at the game, but his mouth almost his ass
into serious trouble. I think the best policy is to not say a word and
constantly beat your opponnent over and over (don't give him any chance, be
cheap if you have to). Every now and then yawn, and look try to look bored
the whole time. Otherwise you'll come off like some kind of geek who never
does anything but play games. Trust me they'll leave after taking enough
embarassment! But, what do I know, I haven't had ANY decent SF competition
after the hype around SSFT and SS2 died down. So maybe I am actually getting
bored... I dunno.
Akuma99999
With that out of the way, let me say that throwing in Alpha 3 is AWESOME.
Throws are easier to avoid, and missed throws are met with retaliation. With a
few excepions, throws are more about position than anything. For example, if
you get a guy in a corner and he keeps jump-kicking up and backward, you can
use the air throw to toss 'em back down before he even attacks.
Throws are not cheap, but one guy playing A3 did not feel the same way. He
had me in a corner and kept ticking at me. He came close and I tossed him into
the corner, at which point he says "Why ya throwin' me, man?!" I couldn't
resist throwing him back out of the corner. He then let go of the joystick and
turned around, flailing his hands in the air and then mumbling something. I
proceeded to throw him again, give him a level 3 Messatsu Go Shoryu, then throw
him one more time. I wouldn't normally beat on an opponent who lets go of the
controls, but this guy really deserved it. He just got way out of hand.
Throws are an integral part of SF, and in A3 they are more "fair" than ever; I
guess some people can just never be satisfied.
Rik Newman
<teve...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Why? Whether it's a tick-throw or a walk-up throw, the counters for
>them are EXACTLY the same.
>1. Jump
>2. Counter-throw
>3. Stick out something quick and fast
Can you jump out of a Ken/Ryu light kick/punch and then throw? Damn I
wish I'd tried that all those years ago.... :)
>School is now in session.
>Have you ever tried to throw someone like this? Ever noticed how you
>simply will not grab someone if they're still sliding back?
I've seen people get out of my Guile follow-in LP Sonic Boom then
throw trick so many times that Onaje is definately right here. It only
works if the person doesn't realise you are going for it (hence I used
to mix up my Sonic Boom follow ins all the time!).
>You CANNOT grab someone while they're in block stun. Period. It just
>cannot happen (unless you're talking about MvC Zangief, and even those
>throws are avoidable).
What about Zangief stuff on EX... if he jumps in, you block, and then
he does a 360 or a 720? Can you avoid those? It certainly doesn't seem
like you can.
Or are you not counting special grabs, just normal throws? (In which
case, I agree).
Not that I MIND this, in some ways 'Gief needs them, and of course
there's all sorts ways you can avoid that situation anyway.
>> Sure, they're easy
>> to pull off and get you out of throws, but I just can't tech hit.
>Deal with it. Get better. Practice. I can do them. Why? I know when
>people will throw me.
>Only predictable people get thrown.
>(I hope you're taking notes 'cause I had to learn this myself.)
Your right. Since they added tech hits I almost never get thrown. One
guy used to be able to throw me all the time... now he almost never
can. I have learnt when they are coming. However I can almost always
throw other people it seems.
I definately cannot pull off all combos and stuff though. I guess my
mind games is one of the stronger part of my gaming "skill"
>Maybe you need to be in a few national tourneys.
Wish we had them. (UK)
>EXACTLY!!! In other words, when your opponent threw you, THEY KNEW WHAT
>YOU WERE DOING!!
>Solution: Don't be predictable!!
Yup. Throws are vital to the game. I was playing some pretty serious
competition (it was on a home system, so I was able to play well, but
at a convention with a large crowd) and the guy I was playing blocked
everything for almost the first half of the round... manically
turtling I guess, but thats ok - I caught him totally off guard with a
simple throw. Once I'd done that I then managed to hit him with an
awful lot more stuff!
-Rik
dpan...@kentlaw.edu
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> NStar wrote:
>
> > After all, since Capcom and other companies have tweaked their fighters
> > so that throws take very little energy, something must be flawed with
> > them, right?....or did they do it for no reason?
No, I have to disagree. The masses (typically in IL) mostly do not like
throwing. Unfortunately, these are the people willing to pay the money to
see eye candy, e.g. re-drawn animation, massive combos, infinities, lotsa
damage. Don't you think that the VS. series is getting kinda crazy? And what
about, the scrub-friednly characters like Ibuki and Y/Y are thrown in the
mix to appease the scrub-masses?
> Ha. Capcom continues to make garbage to please the crowds, so that they can
make more money.
> They keep weakening throws because people who get mad that they can't safely
block for the
> entire round complain about it, and Capcom wants to make everyone nice and
happy again.
> Capcom also has been making games full of infinites, unstoppable patterns, and
extremely
> overpowered characters... I guess that was done in order to improve the games
too? Well it's
> not... they just don't know how to make a good game anymore.
Agreed.
Dale
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
EViLwebs
> Huh? There is at least one thing each character can do after
> a double-parried knee-strike that would be easier to land on
> Gill (and somewhat more effective, too) than a throw.
>
> ARK: Shouryuken, Shin Shouryuken, Shinryuken, Messatsu Gou
> Rasen
> Y/Y: Senkyutai, You Hou, standing Forward into juggle (?)
> Ibuki: Hien, standing Roundhouse into juggle (?)
> Elena: Scratch Wheel
> Alex: DP+K (I forget what it's called... Air Stampede?)
> Hugo: Backbreaker, Megaton Press (?)
> Dudley: Uppercut, Rocket Uppercut (?)
> Necro: Electricity, Magnetic Storm (?)
> Oro: Kishin Riki, Yagyou Dama (?), standing Strong into
> juggle (?)
> Urien: Metallic Sphere
> Sean: Dragon Smash, Hadou Burst, Shouryu Cannon (?)
>
> When it comes to Gill, I prefer to just throw after a blocked
> shoulder ram or when Gill inches within range while I'm in the
> corner. It's more effective to throw then than to reward your
> successful double-parry with piddly damage. Besides, countering
> a parried knee-strike with many of the moves listed above (esp.
> the DP-type moves) positions you very nicely for a jump-in combo
> that Gill doesn't seem to block very often.
>
It depends on how deep the knee-strike is. If it's deep
(right over the top of your head), with some characters
you won't get the opportunity to do anything other than
throw, since Gill recovers almost immediately. Example,
with Urien, the only thing you can do is walk forward
and throw him. The metallic sphere is too slow in coming
out, you can't walk up and elbow juggle him as he lands
because he just blocks it, and his shoulder charge has
been lost because of the parries. If you've got a charged
super bar, that's a different story, but what if this is
the start of the round we're talking about?
The single-kneestrike where he goes over your head and
crosses you up is even worse in that regard. Throwing
is the only safe option for many characters in this
case.
Another example of when all you can do is throw is
if Gill does a shoudercharge and you block it. There
is nothing else you can do but throw. Try to combo
him and he blocks it. Like I said though, that's just
boring... I usually parry the shouder charge and then
he's left entirely at my mercy. ^_^
> >It's boring and has about
> >as much style as a flower-wielding hippy, but it's not
> >cheap when you're earned the right to throw.
>
> IMHO, throws are never cheap. However, there are times when the
> best thing to do is not to throw. For example, throwing Ken as
> he lands from a blocked Shouryureppa is a major damage-inflicting
> opportunity gone to waste. Also, there are defensive throws (ie.
> sac throws, walk-under throws, and counterthrows) and there are
> offensive throws (ie. walk-up throws and ticks). IMHO, it is
> important to use each to your advantage where appropriate.
A very good point, about there being defensive and offensive
throws. Whenever I throw it's almost always in defense, and
you won't see my throwing any missed Shinryukens :)
>
> But I digress; I'm essentially preaching to the converted.
>
> --
> Paul Cordeiro, juuhachisai: p...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
--
Paul Cordeiro
[...]
> Throws are not cheap, but one guy playing A3 did not feel the same way. He
>had me in a corner and kept ticking at me. He came close and I tossed him into
>the corner, at which point he says "Why ya throwin' me, man?!" I couldn't
>resist throwing him back out of the corner. He then let go of the joystick and
>turned around, flailing his hands in the air and then mumbling something. I
>proceeded to throw him again, give him a level 3 Messatsu Go Shoryu, then throw
>him one more time. I wouldn't normally beat on an opponent who lets go of the
>controls, but this guy really deserved it. He just got way out of hand.
>Throws are an integral part of SF, and in A3 they are more "fair" than ever; I
>guess some people can just never be satisfied.
Something similar happened to me in the winter, in MSF of all games. My team was
Dan and Shadow, and his was (I think) Wolverine and Ryu. He kept on jumping in
on my Dan, and I kept on launching into an air combo ending in an air throw.
Both of his characters were down to almost nothing and I was almost perfect.
After one more air throw (killing Wolverine), I whipped out a Super Taunt. He
left the arcade in disgust, with Ryu just standing there. ^_^ I had to put Ryu
out of his misery, so I charged up my meter, switched in Shadow, and gave the
shoto a nice little present for waiting so patiently: Final Mission.
Not exactly my most skillful match, but a fun one nonetheless. ^_^
Paul Cordeiro
<sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.spam.sucks> wrote:
>It depends on how deep the knee-strike is. If it's deep
>(right over the top of your head), with some characters
>you won't get the opportunity to do anything other than
>throw, since Gill recovers almost immediately.
I admit that I don't have much experience with deep knee-
strikes, since Gill usually does them to me while he's on
the other end of the screen...
>Example,
>with Urien, the only thing you can do is walk forward
>and throw him. The metallic sphere is too slow in coming
>out, you can't walk up and elbow juggle him as he lands
>because he just blocks it, and his shoulder charge has
>been lost because of the parries. If you've got a charged
>super bar, that's a different story, but what if this is
>the start of the round we're talking about?
Hmm... in Urien's case, maybe a throw *is* best... point
taken. Ah, he's my worst character anyway. ^_^;
>The single-kneestrike where he goes over your head and
>crosses you up is even worse in that regard. Throwing
>is the only safe option for many characters in this
>case.
I agree with this, though I usually don't see the crossup
coming in time and end up blocking it more often than not.
>Another example of when all you can do is throw is
>if Gill does a shoudercharge and you block it. There
>is nothing else you can do but throw. Try to combo
>him and he blocks it.
If you don't have any meter, then I'll agree with you for
the most part (though most special throws will also be able
to snag Gill after a blocked ram). However, there are a
number of Super Arts that are quick enough to hit/grab Gill
before he recovers. Shin Shouryuken, Brave Dance, You Hou,
Gigas Breaker, Slam Dance, etc.
>Like I said though, that's just
>boring... I usually parry the shouder charge and then
>he's left entirely at my mercy. ^_^
Hmm... I've never tried parrying the shoulder ram. But when
I throw, I like to use my favorite one regardless of how much
damage it does to make it less "boring". I love Dud's mashed
Strong grab, for instance; that's *gotta* hurt. ^_^
>A very good point, about there being defensive and offensive
>throws. Whenever I throw it's almost always in defense, and
>you won't see my throwing any missed Shinryukens :)
Same here, pretty much. I tend to reserve offensive normal
throws to turtles only, though I love to mix in some offensive
special throws (both ticks and combos) against all my opponents.
After all, variety is the spice of life... and an indicator of
skill.
Onaje Everett
>
> Another example of when all you can do is throw is
> if Gill does a shoudercharge and you block it. There
> is nothing else you can do but throw. Try to combo
> boring... I usually parry the shouder charge and then
> he's left entirely at my mercy. ^_^
Actually, you CAN combo him after blocking the Clothesline (it's a
Clothesline, guys). It's just much easier to throw him because the
timing for sticking something out after blocking the Clothesline is
EXTREMELY tight. It can be done, but you REALLY have to know exactly
how long you're in block stun. This is why reversal special moves also
work in this regard.
Still, when it comes down to it....you have to know when to throw and
when not to.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause well....you did read the last line I typed, right?)
:)
Onaje Everett
>
> On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:31:04 -0700, Onaje Everett
> <teve...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Why? Whether it's a tick-throw or a walk-up throw, the counters for
> >them are EXACTLY the same.
> >1. Jump
> >2. Counter-throw
> >3. Stick out something quick and fast
>
> Can you jump out of a Ken/Ryu light kick/punch and then throw? Damn I
> wish I'd tried that all those years ago.... :)
Yeah, you can...but that wouldn't be the best way of escaping it. In
that situation, I'd say option #3 with a little side note that the move
should be nice and powerful, too...with a bit of priority, just in case
your opponent messes up the tick attempt.
(i.e. a DP-type move)
> >You CANNOT grab someone while they're in block stun. Period. It just
> >cannot happen (unless you're talking about MvC Zangief, and even those
> >throws are avoidable).
>
> What about Zangief stuff on EX... if he jumps in, you block, and then
> he does a 360 or a 720? Can you avoid those? It certainly doesn't seem
> like you can.
> Or are you not counting special grabs, just normal throws? (In which
> case, I agree).
> Not that I MIND this, in some ways 'Gief needs them, and of course
> there's all sorts ways you can avoid that situation anyway.
Funny you mention this. :) For some odd reason, I just cannot seem to
ever escape any of Zangief's ticks on EX. It's puzzling. I guess the
best defense here is simple: Don't let him get close. (Duh!)
> I definately cannot pull off all combos and stuff though. I guess my
> mind games is one of the stronger part of my gaming "skill"
Keep practicing the combo thing. If you start getting good at both
combos and throws, you'll actually find that your opponents will become
much more scared of you.
> Yup. Throws are vital to the game. I was playing some pretty serious
> competition (it was on a home system, so I was able to play well, but
> at a convention with a large crowd) and the guy I was playing blocked
> everything for almost the first half of the round... manically
> turtling I guess, but thats ok - I caught him totally off guard with a
> simple throw. Once I'd done that I then managed to hit him with an
> awful lot more stuff!
This is exactly what mind games will do for you....open up doors for
combos and other neat offensive things.
--
Bottom Line: ('cause a well-rounded game will bring turtles shame....and
they'll lose, too.)
Lord Kinboat
>But, what do I know, I haven't had ANY decent SF competition
>after the hype around SSFT and SS2 died down.
Dear god, I can relate to that! I mean, come on...36 wins in a row ?!? It
just got soooo boring, playing the same three people who all do the same
thing with Ryu and Ken (that team tells you a lot about your opponant).
They try to do hadoken after hadoken and don't understand that my optic
blast goes through it. Then I whip out a super optic blast and they
complain that it hit them because they had their fireball out.
My friends and I are all very good at SF and other fighting games, but it
just gets a little old after a while. If only there were a tournament close
to St. Louis.......
-Nick (lord kinboat)
ina...@concentric.net
www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/hills/5857
RD
>Again, a lot of laws are very useful even though their mostly
>inattainable, most physics equations only work in a vacumn, but we
>learn them anyway, but if you don't want to sacrifice your life to
>physics, don't worry about them too much, same deal goes here.
I am also attempting to create a nice program that will coordinate one
of these random matches between two people for days on end etc.., i
hate playing ken vs. chun li for 3 hours cause there's nothing better
to do =) And i have my first version of this at:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/rxd30/SF.EXE
<case sensitive i believe, i'll check the link as soon as i post the
message, make sure you save it tho, it's not a Java Applet =) >
right now the only main problem i see is that i couldn't fit a legend
into the screen for the crosstab section, so i am putting one here
(American names, but i don't think it matters)
1=Ryu
2=Ken
3=E. Honda
4=Chun Li
5=Blanka
6=Zangief
7=Guile
8=Dhalsim
9=Vega
10=M.Bison
11=Balrog
12=Sagat
13=Cammy
14=Dee Jay
15=T.Hawk
16=Fei Long
RD
>http://www.personal.psu.edu/rxd30/SF.EXE
oh yeah, it doesn't do anything when someone actually wins, i'm
working on it... sometime... maybe =).
Lord Zeku
Hahaha! Maybe you're just a fucking wimp. I didn't say anything about
-smarting off,- my derogatory comments are all completely truthful.
If someone doesn't like reality, they'd better not make the mistake
of escalating the conflict. I don't tolerate any shit from anyone.
Phillip McCoy
>my derogatory comments are all completely truthful.
>If someone doesn't like reality, they'd better not make the mistake
>of escalating the conflict. I don't tolerate any shit from anyone.
>
We're talking about a VIDEO GAME here! All that bullshit is unnecessary. I
said what I said because, I don't like the little crew of bad-asses that
think they are better than everyone else at my arcade. I always beat them,
and everytime I do they try and look hard in front of their girlfriends
(fuckin whiggers!). My main thing is, fuck the bullshit. The games are made
to be fun so just enjoy them. It's not a war!
Chojin19
>think they are better than everyone else at my arcade. I always beat them,
>and everytime I do they try and look hard in front of their girlfriends
those kind of scrubs are by far the most fun to beat, don't you think?
chojin