Why MK2 sucks
Big John G
I wrote:
>>I have many reasons why MK2 sucks.
>>I didn't post them here because I didn't want to waste TOO much bandwidth.
The guy we've all been flaming wrote:
> Post your reasons...We all need know. Maybe If we can compile
>a list then Ed Boon will listen.
So I am posting the reasons why MK2 sucks. Go ahead and flame me, but
remember who it was who WANTED me to post them! So here it is:
Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
======================================
1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
4) Finish him! What? You beat up your opponent and then kill him? What
kind of a game is this? You might as well kill your opponent in the
beginning of the round...
5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
get just as many points for any of them.
6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
get played over and over again.
8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
not the same, but that's a different matter.
9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
for showing off.
12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
version of the game, etc.
14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
gobbles up quarters too quickly.
15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
fast.
18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
fight)?
19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
30% energy, and some moves even more.
20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
to last boss. They both have a fireball.
21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
turn into everyone else?
24) Who would want to participate in a sport where you get mortally injured
and die a horrible painfull death if you lose?
25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
2: To get their dose of violence.
26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
until the guy yells "fight" to start?
27) One of the backgrounds shows a big Yin and Yang symbol on the ground and
one on a stone slab above it. Why cheapen it?
28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
MK2.
29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
**John
Well, you wanted a few reasons why MK2 sucks, you got them.
Andy Lin
I have never posted anything to this group, and normally just read, but
I suppose I have seen that the defense for MK2 has been somewhat weak, so
in probably my one an only post, here goes. I like both MK2 and SF2
tremendously.
> Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
> ======================================
>
>
>
> 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
> no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
> little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
What do you mean by "violence?" Why is MK2 any more violent than SF2?
Both games are built on the same concept: draining your opponent's life
away through bodily hits. Is it violent because it is bloody? You
yourself say that the blood is unreasonable and anyone body can see that
the fatalities are extremely fake. When some kid who plays MK2 goes and rips
off someone else's arms or kisses them to make them explode, I'll stop
playing. Is Ryu knocking out Chun Li not violent?
> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
So what if it's very similar to SF2? Are games which have followed others
in style, form, and content intrinsically bad? I bet if MK2 were MORE
like SF2 in its variety of moves and gameplay, SF2 players would like it
MORE.
> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
True realism is not a part of any of these games. How is it that Ryu
throws a fireball? Wouldn't your opponent be dead after a back-breaker?
They are all exaggerations to keep the games interesting. That's a lot
of vomit, especially when you do it three or four times a minute.
> 4) Finish him! What? You beat up your opponent and then kill him? What
> kind of a game is this? You might as well kill your opponent in the
> beginning of the round...
I don't understand your argument here.
> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
> get just as many points for any of them.
First, there are no points in MK2, just wins. Anyways, the fatalities are
just there for fun. If they weren't fun, people would not do them. Some
people don't care about them, and that's their choice.
> 6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
> uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
> splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
> or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
I suppose I should say it now, that a lot of these things are a matter of
taste. That's actually why fighting about them is futile. But, while I'm
here... I personally like the sound, especially Reptile's spit, Jax's
backbreaker, and Raiden's electrocution. The screams are nice, too. Some
of them are bad like the male throws on one side, a sweep hitting
someone in the air.
> 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
> get played over and over again.
Yes, the music needs work. I guess Midway thought that sinister-sounding
meant dead-sounding.
>
> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
> not the same, but that's a different matter.
Yes, their normal moves are very similar, with slight variations in speed,
range, and precedence. Why are special moves (fatalities are) a different
matter? MK2 (and MK) chose to differentiate their characters almost
completely by special moves. What it lacks in variety in normal moves, it
makes up some in variety of special moves.
>
> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
This is one of the worst things about it I'll admit. They are clones in
appearance and normal moves, but not in special moves.
>
>10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
> some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
> Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
> couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
Where did Guile, Sagat, Ken, Cammy, Fei Long, and T. Hawk learn their
modified Dragon punches? Where did Dhalsim learn to teleport? Why does
one of Ryu's fireballs now stun? These games copy each other and copy
themselves.
>
>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
> for showing off.
They are there for fun. If you don't like doing them, don't do them.
Mostly, people do them now to humiliate their opponent by winning only
with kicks.
>12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
Big deal. I would rather they realeased an incomplete version earlier so
I could play it earlier. As a player, what is wrong with these upgrades?
>13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
> computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
> version of the game, etc.
That was bad.
>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
Damage can be big, but the game can last a long time between to really
good (especially if they are defensive) players play.
>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
I wouldn't say "substitutes"; how about "adds"? Some people like these
secrets, to break some of the monotony in playing the computer (which, I'll
admit, gets old). If there were secret characters in SF2, can you admit that
you would never try to reach them?
>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
Do you play much? How do you expect to sweep or throw or do half of the
special moves without the low buttons? They are every bit as important
as the high buttons. Why is blocking inconvenient? The block button gives
you flexibility to move backwards, duck, or block. The only truly bad
thing about the game controls is that a character must finish a sequence
of animation before attempting another move. This can make things like
sudden ducking a problem.
>17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
> fast.
What? Are you talking realism? Is it bad because it's not like SF2? I
don't understand.
>
>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
> fight)?
This has got to be your worst point. Just think about what you are expecting
in terms of realism. I guess it's fine that Ryu has completely drained
Chun Li of all her life, but she is completely revived and healthy to
fight in the next round in a second. Please.
>
>19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
> 30% energy, and some moves even more.
Kintaro is too hard. But, what truly makes him hard is that he can
grab you out of ANYTHING.
>20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
> a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
> their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
> the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
> and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
> to last boss. They both have a fireball.
Whatever. So he's a lot like Goro. Try beating Kintaro the same way you
beat Goro. He's a new Goro, and I'm perfectly happy with that.
>
>21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
> left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
OK. Here's where I make my big point. MK2 and SF2 are different games.
MK2, in my opinion, is much more of a reflex, quick thinking game. SF2
is more of a strategic game. MK2 is more like a shooter. So what?
You like your game, I like mine. Our tastes say nothing about either of us.
>
>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
Not anymore. I don't think that there is one discovered death trap
that has not been eliminated.
>
>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
> Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
> turn into everyone else?
Few people players think that Shang Tsung is the absolute best. Morphing can
be a big pain in the butt, because you are vulnerable on your way out. Are
all characters in SF2 at the same level? Is Blanka as good as Ryu or Sagat?
>
>24) Who would want to participate in a sport where you get mortally injured
> and die a horrible painfull death if you lose?
Who ever said this was a sport? What are you talking about? This is an
"outworld tournament." Does every game made have to meet the standard that
a player must be able to say, "You know, if I had the chance, I would do
this."
>
>25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
> 2: To get their dose of violence.
I play for neither of those reasons. I play for fun.
>
>26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
> brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
> person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
> man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
> be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
> until the guy yells "fight" to start?
Whatever. How seriously do you take these games?
>
>27) One of the backgrounds shows a big Yin and Yang symbol on the ground and
> one on a stone slab above it. Why cheapen it?
You should have stopped.
>
>28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
> game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
> yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
> commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
> hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
> MK2.
I haven't seen the commercials. Don't the SF2 home version commercials
show fighting and Chun Li getting hurt?
>
>29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
> is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
> they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
> brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
I guess it's perfectly fair that Vega can cause his victims to bleed to
death. Nobody said that MK2 was designed to be a sport people should
play.
>
>
>**John
>
>Well, you wanted a few reasons why MK2 sucks, you got them.
>
>
Andy
Mosaic
>In article <stevegCL...@netcom.com> ste...@netcom.com (Big John G) writes:
>I have never posted anything to this group, and normally just read, but
>I suppose I have seen that the defense for MK2 has been somewhat weak, so
>in probably my one an only post, here goes. I like both MK2 and SF2
>tremendously.
>> Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
>> ======================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
>> is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
>> they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
>> brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
>I guess it's perfectly fair that Vega can cause his victims to bleed to
>death. Nobody said that MK2 was designed to be a sport people should
>play.
To add my 2 cents, if anyone has read the street fighter 2 comic from
Malibu, good 'ol Ken gets his head chopped off by Sagat and mailed to
Ryu. Since Capcom licensed the book, they obviously didn't mind putting
it in, so in substance, both sf2 and mk2 are violent, and yes, they are
bloody, my whole point here is who cares! Have fun, play what you like,
no one is telling you to play mk2. Just do what you like best, thats the
key. And don't belittle people for liking what they do (personally I
don't give a rats butt about either game, but as I said, this is my
choice). So why post why mk2 is bad? If you don't like it, don't play.
>>
>>
>>**John
>>
>>Well, you wanted a few reasons why MK2 sucks, you got them.
>>
>>
>Andy
Frank
Philip John Stroffolino
>Malibu, good 'ol Ken gets his head chopped off by Sagat and mailed to
>Ryu. Since Capcom licensed the book, they obviously didn't mind putting
>it in, so in substance, both sf2 and mk2 are violent, and yes, they are
Capcom discontinued the Malibu SF2 comic. They hated it.
And Ken was "only" scalped :-P
Phil
Svenyip Skieseeker
MK2 Sucks," but I'll give my opinions on several of them ...
> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
Some people would say that anything which has two fighters, controlled by
two separate people, which use punches, kicks and special moves to try and
defeat their opponent would be a rip-off from SF2. In some sense, they would
be right. But MK II is less of a clone than some games out there like ...
Martial Champion shall we say? (Six-button set-up, a guile-dressed character
with a "Sonic Wave" and a spinning kick where the leg has a flash aura, etc.)
> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
Well, it's not THAT bad, but I see your point. Before, blood only really
happened after an uppercut. Now you uppercut, roundhouse, jump kick, high
punch, throw Kung Lao's hat ... and you get blood. Some people might care.
I don't, either way.
> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
> get just as many points for any of them.
Which is none at all. MK II is based completely on a wins-system. Whether
you finish your opponent or not, you still get the win.
> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
> not the same, but that's a different matter.
There are subtle differences to all the moves, such as area of effect and
damage, but I know what you're saying. Other people have argued this point
a lot, I'll leave it up to them to do it some more.
> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
You're forgetting the hidden characters! Two more ninja clones, and another
female clone. Sigh ... I'd rather see clones of Kano, Sonya and Goro (when
they can finally be USED), because clones-of-clones would be more interesting
than clones of characters.
>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
> for showing off.
They try to serve three points. (1) Since they're harder to do, people who
try doing them against the computer have a better chance of losing (since you
can't punch). (2) They are new ending moves, and those out there who
haven't seen them will want to. If no one else tries, they have to
themselves. (3) It's an attempt to counter the "all you can do is kill
people" image in the game. Does it work? I dunno ...
>12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
There have been several upgrades, yes. But they've all come out over the
past three months. If they took longer than this, I'd be annoyed. As it
is, the next upgrade comes just as I get bored of the previous one.
>13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
> computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
> version of the game, etc.
That's why there were multiple upgrades. :)
>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
Uppercuts do 24%. But consider SF II. In the game, often when someone gets
hit they're set up to be comboed, which will do more damage than MK II in
less time. Of course, there's Kitana's combo as well ...
>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
Jade's a Kitana clone. The only thing unique about her is that she's Projectile
Proof. Who cares about hidden things? A lot more people than care about
SF2, at least around here ...
>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
Actually, they DON'T do the same damage, because the attacks are different.
Even with jabbing punches, highs do more than lows. And Low Kick has one
very obvious use, sweeping. As for MK2's blocking, the advantage to it is
that you can back up whenever you want to, something you CAN'T do in SF2.
>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
> fight)?
The same reason Ryu, Ken and the rest have 50,000 attempts to compete in
the tournament. By this logic, after they lose once, they should not be
a selectable character again because they've been eliminated from the
competition.
>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
People could say the same thing about SF2: "The fireball/uppercut trap ruins
the game!" The thing is, like the fireball/uppercut trap, the "death traps"
in MK II can be countered by a competent player.
>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
> Shang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
> turn into everyone else?
Because you have no control about when you morph BACK, and during this time
you are vulnerable to EVERYTHING. An expert player can take advantage of
this time. But yes, some characters ARE better than others. Some characters
in SF2 are also better than E. Honda. (A LOT of characters, IMO)
>26) Why is this game so SERIOUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
> brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
> person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
> man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
> be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
> until the guy yells "fight" to start?
This is an opinion on the plot. Can't argue with it one way or the other, but
it doesn't affect game play.
Well, there are a few of my thoughts. Remember that all of them are my
opinions, subject to be ignored or laughed at by others.
--- Svenyip!
Jonathan Owen
Subject: Re: Why MK2 sucks
Summary:
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References: <stevegCL...@netcom.com> <2kput5$d...@netnews.upenn.edu>
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Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
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Cc:
I once thought MK2 was going to be great. I played and played and played.
But once I knew all the special things, I found the game greatly lacking.
I find that SF2 (any of its genre) is a much better game and I get much
more satisfaction when I win a match. In MK2, I'm just glad to get out w/out
becoming too aggrivated at being cheezed to death. I never used to mutter
cheese in SF and still don't today. I too agree, after prolonged review, that
MK2 sucks. The gameplay is pitiful and the characters are too similar. It is
a sad day for fighting games when a match can be won using just a low kick
amd a sweep. In SF2, you can't sit there and do nothing while your opponent
tries to hit you with a projectile... you can't readily duck under a
projectile and avoid it completely (as in MK2). And in SF2, when you jump
and kick first, you usually hit. Not too many characters can jump kick you
on the way up while you have already kicked (giving the correct timing
and distance). This game far overshadows MK2 in all aspects of gameplay.
I don't need the blood and fatalities to prove I can play the game. Who
wants to play a game that requires the learning curve of tieing your shoe-
laces. SF2 is strategic in the greatest sense of the word- from the chosing
of one's character to your battle plan for each round. As we all know, good
SF2 players find a way to make you alter your strategy, or lose. In MK2,
there is basically one strategy. Kick, kick, sweep... ooh, they're in the
corner- Hah! Low Punch over and over... they can't do too much to hurt me.
Throws are another thing that bother me... In SF2 you know when you can throw
and you know that 95% of the time, you'll get it. In MK2, they try to throw
and miss? No problem, they'll just punch, punch, punch until you give up
and let them have their way. What a shitty concept, Ed Boon. Maybe Capcom
and the righteous SF2 followers should open up a school and teach Midway
what is needed for a fighting game to have long lasting playability. MK2
will die as soon as all the neato trix are found and only diehard MK I
players will remain in their pathetic realm while SFX reigns supreme.
Sure, maybe Super ain't that great- but nothin' can touch Turbo.
Flame if you wish, but I have spent countless $$$ on MK2 and have come
to my own honest opinion, which is more than I can say for MK players who
have yet to play SF2 with the same dedication they play MK. I have done so
and have come back to the conclusion that I made after playing MK I.
SF2 is the way. All hail Capcom and SF2 Turbo! Super lives in its own right
as well, but no game will ever touch SF2:Turbo.
P.S. I picked up playing Super on Saturday and found that I haven't lost
much of my skill in defeating most everyone across my path with Sagat.
Ain't it sweet? I don't play scrubs, it's not worth my time. Bring on
Guile. Bring Fei Long. Pick your match. Even use Kitana or Mileena and
Sagat, through my hands will crush you all. Next time we meet, on of us will
not survive. Hmm... maybe this is a metaphor for SF3 vs. MKIII. If so, watch
out. Maybe, if you're lucky (MK faithful) , the next MK II upgrade will
enhance the gameplay instead of tacking on more stupid regurgitated moves
and hidden characters, as well as more torso ripping-fatalities. I've seen
enough of both games to know which is better game. As far a competiton,
MK2 has no chance... it's like adding more and more icing to a burned cake.
Blechhh! Give me SF2 or destroy the fighting genre. Peace to Samurai Shodown
which is indeed a good game.
Sergei Shimkevich
: > 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
: > no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
: > little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
: What do you mean by "violence?" Why is MK2 any more violent than SF2?
: Both games are built on the same concept: draining your opponent's life
: away through bodily hits. Is it violent because it is bloody? You
: yourself say that the blood is unreasonable and anyone body can see that
: the fatalities are extremely fake. When some kid who plays MK2 goes and rips
: off someone else's arms or kisses them to make them explode, I'll stop
: playing. Is Ryu knocking out Chun Li not violent?
Consider two scenarios:
1. Joe fights Mike in a boxing match and knocks him out.
2. Joe takes his shotgun and blows Mike's head off.
Is there any difference between the two?
: > 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
: > way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
: > get just as many points for any of them.
: First, there are no points in MK2, just wins. Anyways, the fatalities are
: just there for fun. If they weren't fun, people would not do them. Some
: people don't care about them, and that's their choice.
Well, "this is fun" argument can be stretched to include almost anything. For
some people it might be fun to play a SimDeathCamp game, but it doesn't
mean that anyone should satisfy their desires.
-Sergei Shimkevich
Michael Jason Lewis
One more person adding his voice to the defense...
} Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
} ======================================
}
}
}
} 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
} no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
} little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
I don't think so--I think the copious blood is actually pretty silly-looking.
I watch it for the fatalities and such (some of them are actually kinda funny),
and I play it because I can actually make mistakes without getting destroyed
(against other people, at least) (but I'll come back to this).
} 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
} with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
There are a lot of games out there that are worse about "ripping off SF2". I
think MK2 does a better-than-average job of distancing itself from SF2.
} 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
} that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
Visual effect. The game seems like a parody of comic violence to me...and
the huge gouts of blood seem to reinforce that opinion. IMHO, of course.
} 4) Finish him! What? You beat up your opponent and then kill him? What
} kind of a game is this? You might as well kill your opponent in the
} beginning of the round...
How? They wouldn't let you. And have you ever seen Time Killers? (I'm not
really sure what your argument is in this point.)
} 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
} way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
} get just as many points for any of them.
You don't get points. You've already won at the time you can do the fatalities
(or babalities or friendships). It's a nice bit of variety.
} 6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
} uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
} splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
} or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
Some of it's not that bad. Raiden's yell is a rather famous exception. And
Q-Sound ain't that impressive, either.
} 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
} get played over and over again.
True. There are, indeed, some negatives to the game.
} 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
} get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
} roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
} not the same, but that's a different matter.
I kinda like that. I have a small chance of being competent using any player,
which isn't nearly possible in SF2. All the characters in MK2 can use a
roundhouse kick for air defense (with varying degrees of effectiveness), etc.
And the special attacks in MK2 have a lot more variety than in SF2.
} 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
} Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
} there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
} except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
} that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
They look similar, but they definitely don't play similar. Kinda cheesy to do
it in the first place, sure, but that'll happen when you're using digitized
pictures on a limited budget.
}10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
} some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
} Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
} couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
"Some" is exaggerating. A few. Remember, you can't use things like Kung Lao
and T.Hawk using the same fast-sky-kick thing, since the games came out at
about the same time. I think that a very low percentage of the new moves in
MK2 have a parallel in SF2.
}11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
} for showing off.
Gee, just like the regular fatalities. They're funny. What did you want them
to be good for? (And actually, for better or worse, they do cut down on the
amount of violence in the game sometimes.)
}12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
It was a rush job. I can't decide if I liked their policy either. I enjoyed
playing 1.0, even though it was incomplete...all that bothers me about it is
that some places don't update their ROMs.
}13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
} computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
} version of the game, etc.
Not by 3.1. I haven't seen it crash, God knows there isn't much that fools
the computer any more...That's why they come out with new versions.
}14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
} kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
} gobbles up quarters too quickly.
At least in MK2, I know that if I get hit with an iceball (one of a very few
attacks which immobilizes the victim--iceball/slick, harpoon, overhead smash
(Jax), fan lift (Kitana)), that's all the damage that it'll do to me. I won't
get comboed for over 50% of my health.
}15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
} you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
} clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
I don't think that the secrets substitute for anything. And I think it's kind
of cool that they do that. (Williams pinball games also often have little
special features.)
}16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
} and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
} slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
} and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
} Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
Low Kick is necessary for sweeps, Low Punch is good for hitting people while
still squatting...And although I have to remind myself to hit the block button
frequently, I like the extra freedom it gives me.
}17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
} fast.
Doesn't seem like it to me. What are you comparing it to?
}18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
} got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
} round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
} fight)?
Game convenience. It isn't realistic. Neither is being knocked unconscious
and being ready to fight at full strength a moment later, much less being
stunned and having the crap kicked out of you _while_stunned_ and then being
ready to fight at normal ability levels.
}19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
} 30% energy, and some moves even more.
I'll buy that. The entire computer is too tough, at least for me. I can't
decide what I think of that. I don't play the computer too much. I think
that maybe it should be powered down a bit. But not because of damage levels,
because of its incredible intelligence and reaction times (it can't be
surprised or fooled, or usually even hit).
}20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
} a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
} their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
} the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
} and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
} to last boss. They both have a fireball.
I can deal with that. I could hardly beat Goro either. 6 other characters
were held over from MK1.
}21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
} left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
As I get better, I'm finding more strategy. There wasn't at the beginning...
But I remember first learning how to play SF2 and kicking butt against my
friends by just jumpkicking, then sweeping.
}22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
} opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
Not any more, really, except maybe Kitana. You don't see that much, anyway.
MK2 is better about that than the fireball-uppercut traps and such in SF2.
}23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
} Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
} turn into everyone else?
Me, for one...it takes a while to turn into someone and a while to turn back,
and you can get beat up pretty bad during those times.
}24) Who would want to participate in a sport where you get mortally injured
} and die a horrible painfull death if you lose?
So who's participating? Not me, fortunately. I can think of few video games
that I would want to participate in, and definitely not SF2.
}25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
} 2: To get their dose of violence.
I think it's fun.
}26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
} brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
} person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
} man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
} be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
} until the guy yells "fight" to start?
Actually, can you hit someone on the ground at all, except for Jax's Quadruple
Smash? It isn't supposed to be a sport at all. And if it's so cheap to hit
someone who's already been hit in the air, it's infinitely cheaper to hit
someone who's stunned and just standing there.
}27) One of the backgrounds shows a big Yin and Yang symbol on the ground and
} one on a stone slab above it. Why cheapen it?
Huh?
}28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
} game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
} yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
} commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
} hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
} MK2.
These are, I believe, for MK1 on the home systems. The cookies commercial
is for the Sega "Fighting System", not MK2, and in fact I believe Final Fight
or Double Dragon 3 or something is featured in the ad. And it isn't the kid's
mother who's having cookies kicked out of her hands, it's the bullies from the
beginning of the commercial having the cookies slapped away. No stupider than
the ads for SF2 home system, and I kinda liked them, actually.
}29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
} is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
} they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
} brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
Yeah, I know. I can't believe people are even hit when they're down, much
less stunned.
And I think you might be taking this a bit too seriously...
- Mike
Su, Kai-Chang J
>In article <stevegCL...@netcom.com> ste...@netcom.com (Big John G) writes:
>
>I have never posted anything to this group, and normally just read, but
>I suppose I have seen that the defense for MK2 has been somewhat weak, so
>in probably my one an only post, here goes. I like both MK2 and SF2
>tremendously.
>
>
>> Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
>> ======================================
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
>> no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
>> little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
>
>What do you mean by "violence?" Why is MK2 any more violent than SF2?
>Both games are built on the same concept: draining your opponent's life
>away through bodily hits. Is it violent because it is bloody? You
>yourself say that the blood is unreasonable and anyone body can see that
>the fatalities are extremely fake. When some kid who plays MK2 goes and rips
>off someone else's arms or kisses them to make them explode, I'll stop
>playing. Is Ryu knocking out Chun Li not violent?
I agree that MK2 and SF2 are both violent. SF2 players think that the
GRAPHIC violence is a cheap way of just luring people away from playing SF2.
Why do SF2 players care that MK2 is graphically violent? Because MK2 is
much more successful than any version of SF2. But who cares about success?
I play MK2 because I like it.
>> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
>> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
>
>So what if it's very similar to SF2? Are games which have followed others
>in style, form, and content intrinsically bad? I bet if MK2 were MORE
>like SF2 in its variety of moves and gameplay, SF2 players would like it
>MORE.
MK2 is not a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. For one thing,
MK2 has more graphic violence. Another thing, SF2 players say that every
one is the same in MK2. Is every character the same in MK2? MK2 was
intended for people who are older and have the money to play the machine.
So what is wrong with the gore? It doesn't look real or anything.
Hollywood does a better job at blood and gore, but are you complaining about
that too?
>> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
>> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
>
>True realism is not a part of any of these games. How is it that Ryu
>throws a fireball? Wouldn't your opponent be dead after a back-breaker?
>They are all exaggerations to keep the games interesting. That's a lot
>of vomit, especially when you do it three or four times a minute.
People bleed in SF2 and MK2. The blood in MK2 is not intended to be real
looking. It reminds me of classic Kung-Fu Theatre. In Kung-Fu Theatre
those guy lose about 200 gallons of blood!! Back to blood and violence
wouldn't you say that Blanka's Bite is very bloody and violent.
>> 4) Finish him! What? You beat up your opponent and then kill him? What
>> kind of a game is this? You might as well kill your opponent in the
>> beginning of the round...
>
>I don't understand your argument here.
This game is called MORTAL KOMBAT. Mortal means to kill or to die. We are
mortals and we will die. K(C)ombat means to fight. So I guess Mortal
Kombat means to fight to the death.
>> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
>> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
>> get just as many points for any of them.
>
>First, there are no points in MK2, just wins. Anyways, the fatalities are
>just there for fun. If they weren't fun, people would not do them. Some
>people don't care about them, and that's their choice.
>
>
>> 6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
>> uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
>> splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
>> or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
>
>I suppose I should say it now, that a lot of these things are a matter of
>taste. That's actually why fighting about them is futile. But, while I'm
>here... I personally like the sound, especially Reptile's spit, Jax's
>backbreaker, and Raiden's electrocution. The screams are nice, too. Some
>of them are bad like the male throws on one side, a sweep hitting
>someone in the air.
The sound in Mortal Kombat 1 and 2 are by far superior to that of SF2(any
version). One of the main reasons why people like MK 1 was because of
the sounds. In MK2 the sounds are incredible. SuperSF2 sounds are blurry
and scratchy.
>> 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
>> get played over and over again.
>
>Yes, the music needs work. I guess Midway thought that sinister-sounding
>meant dead-sounding.
I agree. I think MK1's music was better than MK2's music. But the music
quality and clarity in MK2 is better than anything which is avaiable in the
arcades.
>> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
>> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
>> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
>> not the same, but that's a different matter.
>
>Yes, their normal moves are very similar, with slight variations in speed,
>range, and precedence. Why are special moves (fatalities are) a different
>matter? MK2 (and MK) chose to differentiate their characters almost
>completely by special moves. What it lacks in variety in normal moves, it
>makes up some in variety of special moves.
If you don't like the fact that you think all of MK2's character moves are
the same then why do you think MK2 is just like SF2?
>>
>> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
>> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
>> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
>> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
>> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
>
>This is one of the worst things about it I'll admit. They are clones in
>appearance and normal moves, but not in special moves.
Who cares if you have a lot of characters who look the same. Most people
play Ken and Ryu in SF2 anyways. I don't mind watching the most common
fights in SF2 - Ryu vs. Ken/Ken vs. Ken/Ryu vs. Ryu
>>
>>10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
>> some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
>> Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
>> couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
>
>Where did Guile, Sagat, Ken, Cammy, Fei Long, and T. Hawk learn their
>modified Dragon punches? Where did Dhalsim learn to teleport? Why does
>one of Ryu's fireballs now stun? These games copy each other and copy
>themselves.
Cage learned his Shadow Leap from his third martial art master. Remember
he is an international martial arts moviestar. Liu Kang learned his low
fireball (he already knew the high one) from one of his fellow White Lotus
Society members. Liu Kang had to get Kung Lao to help him out, and Kung
Lao is a member of White Lotus,too.
>>
>>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
>> for showing off.
>
>They are there for fun. If you don't like doing them, don't do them.
>Mostly, people do them now to humiliate their opponent by winning only
>with kicks.
I guess Babalities and Friendships are for the girls who play and watch
the game. They (girls) always seem to say "look at that cute baby..."
when a babality is performed.
>>12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
>
>Big deal. I would rather they realeased an incomplete version earlier so
>I could play it earlier. As a player, what is wrong with these upgrades?
I don't care that MK2 was released early.
>>13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
>> computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
>> version of the game, etc.
>
>That was bad.
Glitches can be avoided only corrected when found. Remember Guile's
magic throw, druken monkey, and handcuffs...Dhalsim's invisibility...
Zangief's magic throw...etc..
>>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
>> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
>> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
>
>Damage can be big, but the game can last a long time between to really
>good (especially if they are defensive) players play.
The damage is consistant in MK2. It will always take X amount of hits
with certain buttons to knock someone out in MK2. You can't rely on
consistant damage in SF2. All SF2 players know this.
>>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
>> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
>> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
>
>I wouldn't say "substitutes"; how about "adds"? Some people like these
>secrets, to break some of the monotony in playing the computer (which, I'll
>admit, gets old). If there were secret characters in SF2, can you admit that
>you would never try to reach them?
Remember Sheng Long? Everyone was looking for a way to get to him in SF2.
>>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
>> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
>> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
>> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
>> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
>
>Do you play much? How do you expect to sweep or throw or do half of the
>special moves without the low buttons? They are every bit as important
>as the high buttons. Why is blocking inconvenient? The block button gives
>you flexibility to move backwards, duck, or block. The only truly bad
>thing about the game controls is that a character must finish a sequence
>of animation before attempting another move. This can make things like
>sudden ducking a problem.
The damage for HK and LK are different except in the air. The damage for
HP and LP are different except in the air. I put MK2 on free play and
posted the damages in the alt.games.mk area.
>>17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
>> fast.
>
>What? Are you talking realism? Is it bad because it's not like SF2? I
>don't understand.
I don't think that wrestlers(Zangief) are slow. A man with super-long
limbs couldn't be that slow either. In SF2 is unreal how fast someone
like Vega moves. And everyone in SF2 defies the law of physics. Why is
it that everyone has strange hang time in SF2? Vega can jump higher
than Dhalsim but he will go and then land faster than Dhalsim. The faster
you jump up doesn't make you fall faster. If that happened the Space Shuttle
could never have got off the ground.
>>
>>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
>> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
>> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
>> fight)?
>
>This has got to be your worst point. Just think about what you are expecting
>in terms of realism. I guess it's fine that Ryu has completely drained
>Chun Li of all her life, but she is completely revived and healthy to
>fight in the next round in a second. Please.
It doesn't make sense if anyone got beat up in one round come back and
fight round two with full energy. But these are games remember... Not
reality.
>>
>>19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
>> 30% energy, and some moves even more.
>
>Kintaro is too hard. But, what truly makes him hard is that he can
>grab you out of ANYTHING.
Kintaro is a MONSTER. He seems to be half tiger and half Goro. I think
you would kill anyone with just one punch. He has got four arms. If I
had four arms I think I could catch anything too.
>>20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
>> a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
>> their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
>> the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
>> and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
>> to last boss. They both have a fireball.
>
>Whatever. So he's a lot like Goro. Try beating Kintaro the same way you
>beat Goro. He's a new Goro, and I'm perfectly happy with that.
Kintaro is not a Goro. Kintaro was completely redone and animated. Look
at the way Kintaro moves. I think Kintaro and Goro came from the same
world (Outworld). I think humans look a lot a like from one human to
another human, but I can't say we are clones.
>>
>>21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
>> left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
>
>OK. Here's where I make my big point. MK2 and SF2 are different games.
>MK2, in my opinion, is much more of a reflex, quick thinking game. SF2
>is more of a strategic game. MK2 is more like a shooter. So what?
>You like your game, I like mine. Our tastes say nothing about either of us.
I think MK2 requires just as much if not more strategy to win than in SF2.
>>
>>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
>> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
>
>Not anymore. I don't think that there is one discovered death trap
>that has not been eliminated.
Excuse me! SF2 has combos which WILL make you dizzy. When you are
dizzy you are pretty much dead in SF2. One more combo will either bring
you down to nothing or kill you. (a.k.a. Ken's Four Fierce Uppercut combo
to mention a few.)
>>
>>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
>> Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
>> turn into everyone else?
>
>Few people players think that Shang Tsung is the absolute best. Morphing can
>be a big pain in the butt, because you are vulnerable on your way out. Are
>all characters in SF2 at the same level? Is Blanka as good as Ryu or Sagat?
MK2 is extremely balanced. I thought you just said that in "MK2 everyone
has pretty much the same moves." So who cares if you can morph into other
characters. If you morph into another guy with the "same" moves does that
really matter?
>>
>>24) Who would want to participate in a sport where you get mortally injured
>> and die a horrible painfull death if you lose?
>
>Who ever said this was a sport? What are you talking about? This is an
>"outworld tournament." Does every game made have to meet the standard that
>a player must be able to say, "You know, if I had the chance, I would do
>this."
This is called MORTAL KOMBAT...meaning fighting to the death. It is not
a sport. Mortal combat occurred quite frequently in Ancient China. And this
game has an ancient Chinese theme...even though I can't say that they did
it correctly (White Lotus society has no affliation with ShaoLin temple),
but who cares?
>>
>>25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
>> 2: To get their dose of violence.
>
>I play for neither of those reasons. I play for fun.
MK2 is fun. The showing off business could apply to a lot of MK2 players,
because there are a LOT more people playing MK2 than SF2(any version). I
play for fun, but if I wanted to show off there is a lot of people to show
off to.
>>
>>26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
>> brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
>> person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
>> man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
>> be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
>> until the guy yells "fight" to start?
>
>Whatever. How seriously do you take these games?
Right! This is only a game. It is not FACES of DEATH. That is a very
serious documentatary.
>>
>>27) One of the backgrounds shows a big Yin and Yang symbol on the ground and
>> one on a stone slab above it. Why cheapen it?
>
>You should have stopped.
Yin and Yang symbolizes BALANCE. Yin can not exist without Yang and vice
versa. Yin and Yang also represents a Chinese philosophy. I guess MK2 and
MK1 deserve to have a Yin and Yang, because there exists BALANCE and a little
Chinese philosophy (and forelore) in MK1&2. Yin and Yang is neither good
nor evil. It is both. Good can not exist without evil...evil can not exist
without good.
>>
>>28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
>> game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
>> yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
>> commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
>> hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
>> MK2.
>
>I haven't seen the commercials. Don't the SF2 home version commercials
>show fighting and Chun Li getting hurt?
I haven't seen the commercials either. But I have seen the commericals
of Chun Li fighting Bison and Guile fighting Bison.
>>
>>29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
>> is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
>> they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
>> brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
>
>I guess it's perfectly fair that Vega can cause his victims to bleed to
>death. Nobody said that MK2 was designed to be a sport people should
>play.
What is unfair play? I think fair play is playing within the legal limits
of the game. Unfair play is pushing someone off the game in order to beat
him. Unfair play also includes messing with your opponents joystick or
buttons...I see unfair play in SF2 sometimes, but that doesn't really
happen a whole lot in MK2. MK2 cost a lot more to play, and unfair
tatics generally can cause some disturbing results.
Benjamin Louis Hayek
>In article <stevegCL...@netcom.com>, Big John G <ste...@netcom.com> wrote:
>} Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
>} ======================================
>}
>}14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
>} kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
>} gobbles up quarters too quickly.
>At least in MK2, I know that if I get hit with an iceball (one of a very few
>attacks which immobilizes the victim--iceball/slick, harpoon, overhead smash
>(Jax), fan lift (Kitana)), that's all the damage that it'll do to me. I won't
>get comboed for over 50% of my health.
Um, you're pretty much wrong here... The stupid part of MK2 is that about
half of the characters have a combo that takes off more than half of your
life. Subzero, on the other hand, can get in one hit and maybe a ground
freeze after that. There's way too much inbalance.
>}22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
>} opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
>Not any more, really, except maybe Kitana. You don't see that much, anyway.
>MK2 is better about that than the fireball-uppercut traps and such in SF2.
>}25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
>} 2: To get their dose of violence.
>I think it's fun.
Well, I think that most people play MK2 is because their attracted to
the blood and gore, but there's no one playing on the Sf machine. And
even if they did play Sf, they get their ass kicked. Here at UIUC, all
of the MK players are old Sf scrubs.
Ben.
>- Mike
Philip John Stroffolino
>wouldn't you say that Blanka's Bite is very bloody and violent.
The first time I saw it, Blanka was chewing away vigorously at Chun Li's
face while she thrashed about, apparently in a great of deal of pain --
blood spurted every which way. It made me jump in horror... I guess
people are used to SF2's violent aspects these days to the point where
we don't notice them anymore.
>I guess Babalities and Friendships are for the girls who play and watch
>the game. They (girls) always seem to say "look at that cute baby..."
>when a babality is performed.
Hey - watch it! I say that :^)
Wells Daniel James
>>At least in MK2, I know that if I get hit with an iceball (one of a very few
>>attacks which immobilizes the victim--iceball/slick, harpoon, overhead smash
>>(Jax), fan lift (Kitana)), that's all the damage that it'll do to me. I won't
>>get comboed for over 50% of my health.
>Um, you're pretty much wrong here... The stupid part of MK2 is that about
>half of the characters have a combo that takes off more than half of your
>life. Subzero, on the other hand, can get in one hit and maybe a ground
>freeze after that. There's way too much inbalance.
>Well, I think that most people play MK2 is because their attracted to
>the blood and gore, but there's no one playing on the Sf machine. And
>even if they did play Sf, they get their ass kicked. Here at UIUC, all
>of the MK players are old Sf scrubs.
>Ben.
Not true. The only characters with 40%+ combos are Scorpion(TAK, teleport,
spear, uppercut[50%], Kitana(Fan lift, kick, fan throw, Sonya punch[40%]),
Shang Tsung(3 fireballs in air[40%]), and Raiden(electrocution, punch, punch,
torpedo[50%]). With Scorpion, a decent player will almost NEVER get hit
with a TAK, and if you do connect, you will probably not be prepared to
get the combo off. With all the defenses against a TAK, you never get this
combo off against good players, just scrubs. The Kitana 3-hitter is very
hard to time(no one here can do it consistently at UIUC). You usually
only get 2 hits off. It's much harder to do than the vast majority of
Ryu combos. NOBODY gets hit with 3 Shang Tsung fireballs anymore(that was
in the wee ol' days of 1.1). Raiden's electrocution combo is the only
combo that is 'easy' to execute. Even then, it is only dangerous
enough to be slightly irritating, since Raiden has to be very close in
order to hit you, which rarely happens. Also, the risk of executing it
against a good player is extremely high as it will most likely miss,
resulting in an uppercut or worse.
Raiden's electrocution combo is the only combo which can be used purely
offensively. The rest require your opponent making a rather bad tactical
error, which doesn't happen too often. The game is hardly dominated by
'combo-death-dealing' characters who wipe out anyone in their path at
the slightest mistake.
BTW, Kung Lao has a 45%, but it involves someone jumping onto your spinning
shield, then jump kicking, slide kicking. Since the shield isn't instant-
aneous, and since doing the movements(U-U-U-LK) generally broadcast to
the world what you are going to do, you will have a tough time finding
anyone who will willingly or accidentally jump onto it.
In SF2...
If we are talking about raw combo power and ease-of-execution, Ryu and
Ken win hands-down. Not only do they win in that category, but they
both have fantastic dizzying power. 2 fireballs, or (much easier) jump
over a projectile or attack, then do a classic 3-hitter. BOOM! You've
just been plastered, and you're dizzy. Time for a 50-60% combo on top
of that(I believe Ken's NK, couching FIERCE, HK does 60%, sorry if I'm
wrong). Ken has a similar 3-hit dizzy combo that does 50% and sometimes
(40%, maybe) dizzies cold, always dizzys if your opponent has been hit
at all recently[combo is jumping FIERCE, standing STRONG, jab DP](Super).
Thus, one mistake vs. Ken and you could die. No other SF2 characters
can do such damaging combos. Given raw combo power and ease-of-executing,
SF2 is VERY unbalanced.
Of course, all of the aforementioned combos are easier said than done.
But such is even more the case in MKII. Your opponent (minus vs.
Raiden) has to MAJORLY screw up in order to get nailed by one of those
combos. Combos are not a very intricate part of MKII, and it is
certainly not dominated by them. Plus, even if you DO get hit by one of
them, an uppercut can easily put you back in the running for the round.
It is much easier to survive and recover from a
combo in MKII than in SF2.
Besides, having awesome combo characters should make you feel right
at home<grin>.
As for why I play it, I enjoy it. Its strategy and gameplay is completely
different from SF2, and it is complex enough to keep me interested. You
should watch some of the "scrubs" around here play sometime. A man
spent $8.00 just trying to win a single match against me(not bragging here...) Do
you think that this guy plays it for the 'fatalities'? And he is not
unlike the other regulars who aren't as good. The people you are talking
about are the ones who come in with move lists from a friend's friend's
uncle-in-law, hoping that maybe just one of them will work. The people
you are talking about are the ones who gasp the first time they see
a fatality, then play with their best friend, each destroying the joystick
and buttons, laughing all the way. They then turn around and ask you how
to do 'that move.' Those people left the arcades a long time ago. MKII
is still extremely popular, even without the 'scrubs.' Those left play
it for the game, not for the neat extras Midway threw in. And there
are a lot of them(players and extras, that is).
As for SF2, I stopped playing because 1) I was getting tired of it, since
I'd been with it since Classic, and 2) You and JQR destroyed me.
Yes, yes, we know what we're all thinking...I didn't switch just 'cause
I wasn't #1 at UIUC. But, what about the 'scrubs' who moved from SF2 to
MKII? I guess they've moved from being destroyed by you 4 on SF2 to being
ripped apart by me and a couple other guys on MKII. They surely didn't
move so that they could win more...either they moved for the fatalities,
or they enjoyed the game better. You decide for yourself.
After hearing about SSF2T, I've been practicing on Turbo to get
my skills up to par. I will welcome the new SF2 with open arms and will
undoubtedly spend tons of money trying it. I look forward to the new
challenge and to getting my butt once again.
Cya at Space Port sometime...
Dan
Eu-Ming Lee
if he were bored. Yes, the Kitana 3 hitter, and everything else
imaginable. It was quite fun to watch him play.
I don't know what you meant about Scorpion's NAK... But here's what
he did with Scorpion:
Someone would jump in (FOOLISH!).
He would
1) Standing punch
2) Jump kick
3) Teleport
4) Spear throw
5) Uppercut
Similar things happened if you jumped in when he was playing other
characters.
Liu Kang:
1) Standing punch
2) Turkey Kick
3) Low fireball
Sub Zero:
1) Standing punch
2) Freeze (still high in the air)
3) Jump Kick
4) Freeze (lower in the air)
5) Jump Kick (reverse direction)
6) Ice Puddle
7) Uppercut
Kung Pao Chicken:
1) Standing punch
2) Jump Kick
3) Diagonal Kick
Jax:
1) Standing punch
2) Face Grab
3) Ground punch
There was some uglier things that he could do with throws, but those
were 'cheap'. Indeed, in MK2, if you decided to use throws, it would
mean an extra hit or two in the combos--- all for the penalty of
jumping in.
Note, that it wasn't the timing of the jump which mattered. Sometimes
the 'master' would get hit by the jump in attack. However, he tried
to do a combo on every possible jump-in because the benefits far
outweighed the damage by a single jump kick.
Ming
Wells Daniel James
>I saw someone who could do all of those MK2 combos consistently, as
>if he were bored. Yes, the Kitana 3 hitter, and everything else
>imaginable. It was quite fun to watch him play.
>I don't know what you meant about Scorpion's NAK... But here's what
>he did with Scorpion:
TAK refers to Turn Around Kick, where you jump over your opponent and kick
late in your jump. Your character will turn around and kick your opponent.
>Someone would jump in (FOOLISH!).
Yes, it is, just as jumping in for no reason on SF2 is just as stupid.
>He would
>1) Standing punch
>2) Jump kick
>3) Teleport
>4) Spear throw
>5) Uppercut
Just about the same as my Scorpion combo. Why don't you just get rid of
step 1? Because your opponent has to be low to the ground on the kick in
order for your spear to connect. Jump kicking high in the air, teleporting,
then spearing will not all connect(spear will miss) because you land too
far away from your opponent. The odds that an opponent would let him
jump kick them that low to the ground(or that he has the skill to do so)
is minimal.
>Similar things happened if you jumped in when he was playing other
>characters.
>Liu Kang:
>1) Standing punch
>2) Turkey Kick
>3) Low fireball
Haven't seen it.
>Sub Zero:
>1) Standing punch
>2) Freeze (still high in the air)
>3) Jump Kick
>4) Freeze (lower in the air)
>5) Jump Kick (reverse direction)
>6) Ice Puddle
>7) Uppercut
No longer present in version 3.1(you cannot freeze in the air over and over)
>Kung Pao Chicken:
>1) Standing punch
>2) Jump Kick
>3) Diagonal Kick
Haven't seen it.
>Jax:
>1) Standing punch
>2) Face Grab
>3) Ground punch
Not a real combo...you can jump away or do something else in time.
>There was some uglier things that he could do with throws, but those
>were 'cheap'. Indeed, in MK2, if you decided to use throws, it would
>mean an extra hit or two in the combos--- all for the penalty of
>jumping in.
Throws are pretty easy to counter if you are watching for them. The only
way you can combo a throw with another move is if you have them pinned in
the corner or you get a very close foot sweep. It also varies with your
character's speed and throwing priority. If all said conditions aren't
perfect, you can get uppercutted attempting a throw, no problem.
BTW, you have a hard time finding good players who think that throws are
cheap(and most of them don't use throws much anyways!). Just like SF2,
it's a move that's obviously meant to be used
>Note, that it wasn't the timing of the jump which mattered. Sometimes
>the 'master' would get hit by the jump in attack. However, he tried
>to do a combo on every possible jump-in because the benefits far
>outweighed the damage by a single jump kick.
I have yet to see anyone even remotely consistently punch a jumper out
of the air. While your friend(or whoever) decided that this was a good
strategy, he was obviously not playing anyone good, as nobody who knows
what he's doing jumps in randomly like that. The possibility of getting
the kind of opportunities that guy was getting in a circle of good MKII
players is negligable.
MKII is hardly close to being dominated or even dependant on combos.
Dan
Eu-Ming Lee
>eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Eu-Ming Lee) writes:
>>Someone would jump in (FOOLISH!).
>Yes, it is, just as jumping in for no reason on SF2 is just as stupid.
But the worst thing that can happen is Sagat's TU, which does maybe
one-third of the lifebar at most.
>>He would
>>1) Standing punch
>>2) Jump kick
>>3) Teleport
>>4) Spear throw
>>5) Uppercut
>Just about the same as my Scorpion combo. Why don't you just get rid of
>step 1? Because your opponent has to be low to the ground on the kick in
>order for your spear to connect. Jump kicking high in the air, teleporting,
>then spearing will not all connect(spear will miss) because you land too
>far away from your opponent.
Huh? The teleport hits and knocks the opponent into the air while
Scopion has time to land and do the spear throw before the opponent
lands. I saw it happen. I don't know about the skill level of the
opponents but this guy seemed to know what he was doing.
I don't know why he does step 1. I don't know what this combo is
allowed to work at all.
>I have yet to see anyone even remotely consistently punch a jumper out
>of the air. While your friend(or whoever) decided that this was a good
>strategy, he was obviously not playing anyone good, as nobody who knows
>what he's doing jumps in randomly like that. The possibility of getting
>the kind of opportunities that guy was getting in a circle of good MKII
>players is negligable.
Probably true. Given his impressive array of combos, I assume that
an equally skilled player would be able to do them as well. I never
saw him jump in on people who had barely a chance of beating him.
(He jumped in on me. What an insult!)
>MKII is hardly close to being dominated or even dependant on combos.
Probably true, but those combos were what was making the game
interesting, IMO.
>Dan
Ming
Wells Daniel James
>one-third of the lifebar at most.
Even that's being changed in SSF2T, from what I hear. If you jump in in
MKII and your opponent has time, expect a minimum of 15% damage. It
is one of the big differences between the two games.
>Huh? The teleport hits and knocks the opponent into the air while
>Scopion has time to land and do the spear throw before the opponent
>lands. I saw it happen. I don't know about the skill level of the
>opponents but this guy seemed to know what he was doing.
Basically, if you are Scorpion and hit your opponent high in the air(toward
the top of your jump), then teleport, you will hit, but your opponent flies
too far away for your spear to catch him. If you do your kick and teleport
low to the ground, you land close enough after the teleport to catch him
with the spear. That's why he has to punch first...it lifts his opponent
up to the distance for a hop kick, then teleport, etc. He would never get
a kick in on a jumper that close without the punch to disable his opponent's
kick.
Dan
Caroline Ann Seawright
>> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
>Some people would say that anything which has two fighters, controlled by
>two separate people, which use punches, kicks and special moves to try and
>defeat their opponent would be a rip-off from SF2. In some sense, they would
>be right. But MK II is less of a clone than some games out there like ...
>Martial Champion shall we say? (Six-button set-up, a guile-dressed character
>with a "Sonic Wave" and a spinning kick where the leg has a flash aura, etc.)
I'll agree with that... I wonder what game SF is a rip-off from? I can bet
that there has been many fighting games like that BEFORE Street Fighter!
So thie number 2) reason doesn't have any validity at all.
>> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
>> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
So what? And anyway, you can turn blood, and fatalities off. But at least the
blood in MK looks like blood, unlike the sawdust that comes flying out of
people in SFII!!
>> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
>> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
>> get just as many points for any of them.
You don't get any points in MK games... That's SFII you are thinking of...
>> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
>> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
>> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
>> not the same, but that's a different matter.
>There are subtle differences to all the moves, such as area of effect and
>damage, but I know what you're saying. Other people have argued this point
>a lot, I'll leave it up to them to do it some more.
Also, they don't "even block the same"... Sheesh... Watch the game before
you go on about it!!!
>> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
>> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
>> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
>> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
>> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
And I wonder who Ken is a clone of... They may not look the same, but they
do everything else the same!!
>>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
>> for showing off.
>They try to serve three points. (1) Since they're harder to do, people who
>try doing them against the computer have a better chance of losing (since you
>can't punch). (2) They are new ending moves, and those out there who
>haven't seen them will want to. If no one else tries, they have to
>themselves. (3) It's an attempt to counter the "all you can do is kill
>people" image in the game. Does it work? I dunno ...
And they are cute...
>>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
>> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
>> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
>Uppercuts do 24%. But consider SF II. In the game, often when someone gets
>hit they're set up to be comboed, which will do more damage than MK II in
>less time. Of course, there's Kitana's combo as well ...
Yeah, what about the combos in SFII? If you get hit once, you manage to
lose about half of your life, as you can't stop getting bashed up... Look
at SFII before going on about how there are a few "death traps" in MKII!!
SFII is the Death Trap centre of the 'fighting genre' games!!
>>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
>> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
>> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
>Jade's a Kitana clone. The only thing unique about her is that she's Projectile
>Proof. Who cares about hidden things? A lot more people than care about
>SF2, at least around here ...
At least in MKII you have little surprises waiting for you... All you have to
look forward to in SF2 is death traps!
>>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
>> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
>> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
>> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
>> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
>Actually, they DON'T do the same damage, because the attacks are different.
>Even with jabbing punches, highs do more than lows. And Low Kick has one
>very obvious use, sweeping. As for MK2's blocking, the advantage to it is
>that you can back up whenever you want to, something you CAN'T do in SF2.
That just about says it all!
>>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
>> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
>> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
>> fight)?
>The same reason Ryu, Ken and the rest have 50,000 attempts to compete in
>the tournament. By this logic, after they lose once, they should not be
>a selectable character again because they've been eliminated from the
>competition.
I agree one hundred percent! How stupid can you get, trying to use THAT
argument! Sheesh!
>>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
>> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
>People could say the same thing about SF2: "The fireball/uppercut trap ruins
>the game!" The thing is, like the fireball/uppercut trap, the "death traps"
>in MK II can be countered by a competent player.
Just as I said before, SFII is the one with the death traps... and ones that
you can't break out of, too! At least you can stop MK "combos" if you know
what to do...
>>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
>> Shang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
>> turn into everyone else?
>Because you have no control about when you morph BACK, and during this time
>you are vulnerable to EVERYTHING. An expert player can take advantage of
>this time. But yes, some characters ARE better than others. Some characters
>in SF2 are also better than E. Honda. (A LOT of characters, IMO)
I'd say that in MKII the characters are balanced... If you play SFII, every
character has their own ranking, which clearly shows how unbalanced the
game is! Take Chun Li vs Ryu or Ken... There is nothing even about that fight!
I don't mind SFII, or MKII... But I just can't stand people making stupid and
incorrect statements on things that they obviously don't know anything about.
It is sad... very, very sad...
Ja, mata!
Caroline...
Seth James Killian
>TAK refers to Turn Around Kick, where you jump over your opponent and kick
>late in your jump. Your character will turn around and kick your opponent.
I notice you local studs still haven't figured out that you can uppercut
someone *everytime* they do this TAK. A weak analog to the SF2 neck-kicks,
which have been extremely poorly implemented in MK2, in an effort to cover-up
the outright silliness of jumping behind someone in MK1.
>>Someone would jump in (FOOLISH!).
>Yes, it is, just as jumping in for no reason on SF2 is just as stupid.
But there is a reason for jumping in both games. Especially in MK2.
Since only about half of the MK2 characters can easily knock you out of the
air, it is a valid tactic. It is also often your only resort against an
extremely defensive opponent, since you can always duck a projectile without
any damage.
[Scorpian combo deleted]
>Throws are pretty easy to counter if you are watching for them. The only
>way you can combo a throw with another move is if you have them pinned in
>the corner or you get a very close foot sweep. It also varies with your
>character's speed and throwing priority. If all said conditions aren't
>perfect, you can get uppercutted attempting a throw, no problem.
>>Note, that it wasn't the timing of the jump which mattered. Sometimes
>>the 'master' would get hit by the jump in attack. However, he tried
>>to do a combo on every possible jump-in because the benefits far
>>outweighed the damage by a single jump kick.
>I have yet to see anyone even remotely consistently punch a jumper out
>of the air. While your friend(or whoever) decided that this was a good
>strategy, he was obviously not playing anyone good, as nobody who knows
>what he's doing jumps in randomly like that. The possibility of getting
>the kind of opportunities that guy was getting in a circle of good MKII
>players is negligable.
>MKII is hardly close to being dominated or even dependant on combos.
True indeed. High level fighting games anywhere are not combo dependent. But what is the 'critical factor' to winning in MK2? It's quite
obviously he who gets the first hit, should be able to win the round.
Defensiveness is a key factor to many high level strategies, but in games
with far more complex ground play (we're talking orders of magnitude here),
offensiveness can pay off, and not merely get you crushed. But in MK2,
several factors make "ground game sneakiness" is almost totally moot.
First, the 31 magic points: From end to end, your character can only ever
stand in 31 different places. This means that you can't take just one step
to adjust your spacing subtley. You *must* move to the next point, and your
opponent knows this, if only subconsciously. The sweeps and low kicks have
slight variations between characters, but the sameness of everyone's movement
undermines the possibility of fakes.
Secondly, everyone *does* have basically the same moves. The variationsare nothing like the differing sweeps in SF2, or even other clones. So if you
can't jump in, can't walk up, and can't knick away damage with projectiles,
what can you do? Practically nothing. The rest of the game centers around
learning to be quick enough to counter any of the extremely linear special
moves, such as the teleports. Further investigation into "depth of play"
will only reveal bugs. After numerous revisions, many of the bugs have been
eliminated (you get to playtest AND pay for it, what a great concept!), but I
refer you to alt.games.mk to read Joel E. Frank's "Death of Jax" post. It
just goes to show that Midway simply hasn't playtested MK2 worth shit. Has
anyone EVER found anything like that in SF2? No. That is it's one enduring
beauty, even in the face of boring game speeds. The more you play, the more
depth is discovered. Thats depth, not bugs. And bugs and cheeze is what MK2
is simply all about...
Seth Killian
Francis A. Harte IV
>someone *everytime* they do this TAK. A weak analog to the SF2 neck-kicks,
>which have been extremely poorly implemented in MK2, in an effort to cover-up
>the outright silliness of jumping behind someone in MK1.
I also notice that you local SF2 studs haven't noticed that you can counter
uppercuts with punches...you can T.A.P. instead of kick. This DOES work
*everytime* if you time it properly against their uppercut. Note that
it requires timing and placement, just like neck kicks in SF2. As for
the poor 'implementation' of the neck kick in MKII, that's just your opinion.
The TAK is very different from a neck kick in that you can do
it anytime, not just after your opponent falls down. You try that on SF2,
you get thrown. Result: this opens up moves, strategy, and game play
on both sides of your opponent and yourself. You can call it 'silly', but
it adds a lot of variety to the game.
> But there is a reason for jumping in both games. Especially in MK2.
>Since only about half of the MK2 characters can easily knock you out of the
>air, it is a valid tactic. It is also often your only resort against an
>extremely defensive opponent, since you can always duck a projectile without
>any damage.
Except for when your opponent is Baraka, you can ALWAYS hit them out of the
air. The most basic move for this is a standing HK. Every character's kick
will work about as effectively as a roundhouse. The only reason you
cannot do it on Baraka is that his legs and feet are so large. Even so,
Baraka can be uppercutted easily by half of the characters in MKII, round-
housed by the rest.
There IS NO REASON to jump in randomly in either SF2 or MKII. It should
only be done as a counter to an opponent's move(in both games), or as a
TAK/hop kick in MKII.
>>MKII is hardly close to being dominated or even dependant on combos.
> True indeed. High level fighting games anywhere are not combo dependent. But what is the 'critical factor' to winning in MK2? It's quite
>obviously he who gets the first hit, should be able to win the round.
>Defensiveness is a key factor to many high level strategies, but in games
>with far more complex ground play (we're talking orders of magnitude here),
>offensiveness can pay off, and not merely get you crushed. But in MK2,
>several factors make "ground game sneakiness" is almost totally moot.
>First, the 31 magic points: From end to end, your character can only ever
>stand in 31 different places. This means that you can't take just one step
>to adjust your spacing subtley. You *must* move to the next point, and your
>opponent knows this, if only subconsciously. The sweeps and low kicks have
>slight variations between characters, but the sameness of everyone's movement
>undermines the possibility of fakes.
In game play, I haven't seen the '31 magic points' make any big difference
in the game play. Maybe I've 'subconsciously' adjusted as you suggest,
maybe not. Nonetheless, you don't 'snap' into place while executing an attack
while moving. Thus, I believe that it would be more correct to say that
you can only move in incriments(sp?), but that doesn't alter your
ground play effectiveness. You may call it a flaw in the game, but it
probably makes a negative difference in 1 in a thousand fights.
As for fakes, those were something I did to get people to jump in on
Ken/Ryu. They weren't something that required a lot of skill, and didn't
amount to much in the overall spectrum of moves at my command. I guess
you can fake a tick as well, then sweep, but the whole ticking thing is just
'silly' anyways. There are undoubtedly some others I don't know about.
There are close-in fakes/tactics for every character in
MKII, but they vary, depending on your character's attributes. In short,
I don't think that faking makes much of an impact in either game.
> Secondly, everyone *does* have basically the same moves. The variationsare nothing like the differing sweeps in SF2, or even other clones. So if you
>can't jump in, can't walk up, and can't knick away damage with projectiles,
>what can you do? Practically nothing. The rest of the game centers around
>learning to be quick enough to counter any of the extremely linear special
>moves, such as the teleports. Further investigation into "depth of play"
>will only reveal bugs. After numerous revisions, many of the bugs have been
>eliminated (you get to playtest AND pay for it, what a great concept!), but I
>refer you to alt.games.mk to read Joel E. Frank's "Death of Jax" post. It
>just goes to show that Midway simply hasn't playtested MK2 worth shit. Has
>anyone EVER found anything like that in SF2? No. That is it's one enduring
>beauty, even in the face of boring game speeds. The more you play, the more
>depth is discovered. Thats depth, not bugs. And bugs and cheeze is what MK2
>is simply all about...
This is always the basic premise against MKII: all you have to do is just
be REAL defensive, and your opponent can't touch you. People use this
as a prime example of the simplicity of MKII.
Of course,
this comment is usually made by those who don't know what they are talking
about. The simple fact is that defensiveness WILL NOT win you any matches
against someone who knows what they are doing. If you play defensive
against a very aggressive, good player, you WILL be clobbered, not the
other way around. One of the main reasons for this is that damage can be
ticked off by normal moves. If people don't fight, they will eventually
be forced to by sheer blocked damage. Of course, it gets much more
complex than that.
The game also lends itself to much more than 'foot sweep wars' where you
do nothing but random foot sweeps to wear your opponent down. There
ARE 3 different practical ground attacks, just like in SF2. Your
basic ground attack in SF2 is one of the crouching kicks(the are some
exceptions, but more on that in a minute). You have a quick jabbing
kick in SF2. It is effective only at close range. This is the same as a
crouching LP. It can interrupt foot sweeps if timed right. The only
main difference between the SF2 vers. and the MKII vers. is that you
cannot combo several of them(another 'silly' premise). The forward in SF2
is akin to a crouching LK in speed, yet the MKII version lacks the
range typically found in SF2. The roundhouses/sweeps are about the same
in speed and range, but speeping priorities/counters are handled very
differently in the two games.
In MKII, the crouching LP and LK moves are
basically the same across characters, but sweeps differ in range,
speed, and priority. They may LOOK the same, but they differ greatly in
function. Such is the case in SF2, the main difference between SF2 and
MKII being that the
range of foot sweeps/slides can differ to a greater extent. There are also
characters with extra-long punches/sweeps in SF2. All they do is reduce
the chance of getting in a random forward or similar attack by keeping
me even farther away from my opponent than I already have to be.
We could go on about 'wimpy kicks,' roundhousing and uppercutting close-in,
'hop' kicks, the role special moves play close-in, ducking under attacks,
fakes and 'traps,' throws, and how each character varies in each of these,
but that isn't necessary. My main point is that MKII is miles above a
"sit there and counter everything your opponent does" strategy.
As for "The Death of Jax," I'm sure you rushed right out and tried those
moves at the nearest MKII machine. I haven't tried a few of them, but I'm
doubtful. The Liu Kang Flying Kick doesn't hit(I've tried it), and if
that doesn't hit, I seriously doubt that a jump(hop) kick would,
especially with someone like Kung Lao who has a horrible hop kick.
Besides, the Flying Kick is much faster than any jump/hop kick. The
only move I've seen catch Jax after the face smash was the Turkey Kick.
I don't even know if it still works in 3.1, but if it does, there's a
simple way around it...since most Liu Kang players start charging LK at
the first punch, just punch 4 times instead of 5. They won't have
enough time for the charge, and if they do, they will be caught off-guard,
might even let it go anyways, setting them up for another face smash or
throw.
As for the 'play testing' remark, I agree 100%. It was quite bad of
Midway to put out MKII with all those bugs, as well as some of the
cheese tactics found in Sub-0, Liu Kang, and Kitana. They obviously
didn't test it enough to find these game play bugs, or they didn't care(I
wouldn't if my program crashed every 5 minutes!).
For finding complexity in SF2, you can come up with all the nifty combos,
meaty attacks, and ticks you want, but the basic game play and character
strategy never changes. Sure, you get better at reacting to certain
tactics and traps, but that's you getting better, not the game getting
more complex. Same thing happens in MKII. There's a limit as to how
much you can improve your game play. I might discover a new
combo someday in SF2, but it will probably be like the rest- impractical
and providing the same function/damage another move can. If a character
cannot dominate the arena with combos, finding new ones don't add that
much to the game. If he does, new combos will probably be useless or
practically the same as other combos. Meaty attacks are fine, but don't
ever change. Ticking and counterthrowing were stupid IMO, but remember,
that's just me.
The best players of a certain character in SF2 play that character the
same way, down to the same traps/tactics/combos. There are some differences,
but not enough to provide 'beauty and warmth' by seeing someone play Ryu
differently in every arcade.
The same is true for all fighting games, but I see much more variety in
tactics while playing MKII than while playing SF2.
IMO, the main difference between SF2 and MKII is the distance at which
fights are fought. In MKII you can fight with a great deal of strategy
while close-in. Outside fighting is discouraged/punished. In SF2
you have to stay farther away from your opponent because
A) There are a number of moves which knock you down easily and set up
your opponent for a jump-in/meaty attack.
B) Blocked or unblocked moves naturally push you back much further than
in MKII.
C) The constant threat of dizzies is always there, and it's much easier
to get dizzied charging straight in than staying back a bit.
SF2 and MKII are very different, and I constantly see people making
ignorant comments on both sides just because they haven't played
enough. Since I have been away from SF2 for a while, I trust that you
forgive and point out any error on my part regarding SF2(or MKII, for
that matter).
My purpose isn't to prove which game is 'better.' If you enjoy the
games you play and are comfortable with why you play them, then
that's all the justification you need. My sole point is that MKII
can be very different from SFII and just as subtly complex at the
same time.
Ugh...3 hours to write this lousy thing. Time for sleep.
Cya at Turbo sometime,
Dan
Wells Daniel James
comment on 'all the defenses against a TAK,' or something very similar.
Guess we 'studs' already knew about the uppercut thing<grin>.
Dan
U31...@uicvm.uic.edu
kuno...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Caroline Ann Seawright) says:
>Also, they don't "even block the same"... Sheesh... Watch the game before
>you go on about it!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>And I wonder who Ken is a clone of... They may not look the same, but they
>do everything else the same!!
>
Ken and Ryu have come a looong way since Classic.. they haven't been
identical in a while. The differences in speed, damage, vulnerabilities,
etc.. have grown. The special moves may be the same motions, and almost
the same animation, but their uses differ. You can't combo with 2 or Ken's
fireballs, etc.. and there's *no* way you can say the HK's and DP's are
the same. Maybe people play Ryu and Ken the same way where you've seen them,
but the differences make for variations in playing style everywhere I've seen.
>>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
>>> for showing off.
>And they are cute...
>
Umm, yeah..
>>>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
>>> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
>Yeah, what about the combos in SFII? If you get hit once, you manage to
>lose about half of your life, as you can't stop getting bashed up... Look
>at SFII before going on about how there are a few "death traps" in MKII!!
>SFII is the Death Trap centre of the 'fighting genre' games!!
The difference being that 'death traps' in SFII are patterns, styles of
playing, whereas MKII 'death traps' usually involve taking off a good portion
of the opponents life before they hit the ground. Patterns can be escaped from
with a little knowledge and skill. All you can do when Kitana catches you in
her fan-whatever--'combo' is twiddle your joystick and hope you can do the same
thing back when (if) you hit the ground..
>>> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
>>> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
>>Actually, they DON'T do the same damage, because the attacks are different.
>>Even with jabbing punches, highs do more than lows. And Low Kick has one
>>very obvious use, sweeping. As for MK2's blocking, the advantage to it is
>>that you can back up whenever you want to, something you CAN'T do in SF2.
>
But each character has the *same* high punches, sweeps, standing kicks, etc.
Compare, say Ryu's sweep to Vega's.. Zangief's fierce punch to Cammy's..
there are inherent differences in the characters other than the special moves.
I know there are some differences in the MKII characters, but those are the
exceptions, rather than the rule.
>Just as I said before, SFII is the one with the death traps... and ones that
>you can't break out of, too! At least you can stop MK "combos" if you know
>what to do...
>
Brush the other player's hands off the controller? How *do* you stop from
slipping all over Sub Zero's ice after landing in the corner from an uppercut?
Land from being held in the air by Kitana's fan, punches, uppercut, etc..?
FB/DP traps that 'ruin the game', or entrapment with Dhalsim are methods of
playing, maybe some beat others, but they're not inescapable.
>I'd say that in MKII the characters are balanced... If you play SFII, every
>character has their own ranking, which clearly shows how unbalanced the
>game is! Take Chun Li vs Ryu or Ken... There is nothing even about that fight!
>
Well, they're fairly balanced (they do have the same moves, after all..)
But for SFII and MKII, it's a matter of playing style, ChunLi can beat Ryu..
Anyone can beat anyone else.. there are some imbalances in special moves for
both games, they're about equal IMO. Ryu's DP is more useful than ChunLi's
spinning kick (generally, anyway) And Sub Zero's ice-on-the-ground is more
useful than Scorpion's leg grab. (Not as cool looking, though.. :)
>Ja, mata!
>Caroline...
..Tk.
Steve Garritano
>> Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
>> ======================================
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
>> no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
>> little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
>What do you mean by "violence?" Why is MK2 any more violent than SF2?
>Both games are built on the same concept: draining your opponent's life
>away through bodily hits. Is it violent because it is bloody? You
>yourself say that the blood is unreasonable and anyone body can see that
>the fatalities are extremely fake. When some kid who plays MK2 goes and rips
No, they look as real as can be. Blood... guts... screams...
>off someone else's arms or kisses them to make them explode, I'll stop
>playing. Is Ryu knocking out Chun Li not violent?
Ryu knocks out Chun Li.
Baraka stabs Kitana, lifts her up with his sword, she slides down the blade,
blood splatters everywhere, Kitana dies.
Which one is more violent? Remember, I NEVER said that SF2 was not violent.
MK2 is MUCH more violent; in fact, so much emphasis has been put on this
that it seems to be the most important aspect of the game.
>> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified
>> itself with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
>So what if it's very similar to SF2? Are games which have followed others
>in style, form, and content intrinsically bad? I bet if MK2 were MORE
Couldn't Midway think of something original?
>like SF2 in its variety of moves and gameplay, SF2 players would like it
>MORE.
Wrong. If it were more original, a lot of people might like it more.
>> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
>> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
>True realism is not a part of any of these games. How is it that Ryu
>throws a fireball? Wouldn't your opponent be dead after a back-breaker?
OK, it's a video game. They don't have to be dead after a back breaker. You
miss my point here: Gratuitous splatter of guts is superficial and not
necessary to keep my interest in a game.
>They are all exaggerations to keep the games interesting. That's a lot
>of vomit, especially when you do it three or four times a minute.
What? MK2 characters not only bleed, but vomit?
>just there for fun. If they weren't fun, people would not do them. Some
>people don't care about them, and that's their choice.
It's kind of sad that people think the fatalities are fun. How many of you
enjoy ripping someone's head off or decapitating someone? I hope you aren't
deluding yourself to think that such graphic images have absolutely no
effect on your psyche, Andy. You may even become inured to it.
>> 6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
>> uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
>> splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
>> or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
>I suppose I should say it now, that a lot of these things are a matter of
>taste. That's actually why fighting about them is futile. But, while I'm
>here... I personally like the sound, especially Reptile's spit, Jax's
Well... I like a few of the sounds, like Mileena's laser(?) attack.
>backbreaker, and Raiden's electrocution. The screams are nice, too. Some
The screams? Kayaaaaaahooooo! (Uppercut.) Uh eh eh uh eh eh eh uh! (Punch
punch punch.)
>of them are bad like the male throws on one side, a sweep hitting
>someone in the air.
>> 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes
>> which get played over and over again.
>Yes, the music needs work. I guess Midway thought that sinister-sounding
>meant dead-sounding.
Dead-sounding... This is one of the things that makes the game too serious.
>> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
>> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
>> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
>> not the same, but that's a different matter.
>Yes, their normal moves are very similar, with slight variations in speed,
>range, and precedence. Why are special moves (fatalities are) a different
>matter? MK2 (and MK) chose to differentiate their characters almost
Special moves and fatalities are different from normal moves.
>completely by special moves. What it lacks in variety in normal moves, it
>makes up some in variety of special moves.
Somewhat. Just about every character has a projectile the same speed
(except for the snail pace energy ball from Reptile, but he has another
projectile which is faster).
>> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
>> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
>> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
>> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
>> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
I forgot to add that the secret characters are also clones.
>This is one of the worst things about it I'll admit. They are clones in
>appearance and normal moves, but not in special moves.
>>
>>10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
>> some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
>> Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
>> couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
>Where did Guile, Sagat, Ken, Cammy, Fei Long, and T. Hawk learn their
>modified Dragon punches? Where did Dhalsim learn to teleport? Why does
Modified Dragon Punch? Not from MK2. Now that you bring up Dragon Punches,
where did Cage learn his flying uppercut?
Dhalsim's teleport is very different from any of MK(2)'s teleports. First,
you can control where you appear. Also, the way they handle teleportation
is different.
>one of Ryu's fireballs now stun? These games copy each other and copy
Stun or knock down. Now what MK2 projectile has that?
>themselves.
>>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
>> for showing off.
>They are there for fun. If you don't like doing them, don't do them.
>Mostly, people do them now to humiliate their opponent by winning only
>with kicks.
They're a gimmick. That's what they are.
>>12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
>Big deal. I would rather they realeased an incomplete version earlier so
>I could play it earlier. As a player, what is wrong with these upgrades?
They didn't even tell you MK2 wasn't complete! Most other game companies
pay thier play testers.
>>13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
>> computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
>> version of the game, etc.
>That was bad.
>>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
>> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
>> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
>Damage can be big, but the game can last a long time between to really
>good (especially if they are defensive) players play.
How often have you seen that happen?
>>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
>> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
>> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
>I wouldn't say "substitutes"; how about "adds"? Some people like these
No, substitutes. There are three big things that make up MK2. Violence,
fatalities, and secrets. If any of these three weren't there, no one would
play it.
>secrets, to break some of the monotony in playing the computer (which, I'll
>admit, gets old). If there were secret characters in SF2, can you admit that
>you would never try to reach them?
If the secret character was original, and not a Kitana clone, I probably
would.
>>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
>> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
>> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
>> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
>> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
>Do you play much? How do you expect to sweep or throw or do half of the
>special moves without the low buttons? They are every bit as important
Simple. Imagine that there was only a Kick button, Punch button, and Block
button. Back + Kick = roundhouse. Down/Back + Kick = sweep. Down + Kick =
push-back kick. Down + Punch = duck/punch. Down/Back + Punch = uppercut.
Need I go on?
>as the high buttons. Why is blocking inconvenient? The block button gives
>you flexibility to move backwards, duck, or block. The only truly bad
When you see a fireball heading your way, would you rather move backwards
or block? It's much easier to hold back or down/back to block.
>thing about the game controls is that a character must finish a sequence
>of animation before attempting another move. This can make things like
>sudden ducking a problem.
>>17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
>> fast.
>What? Are you talking realism? Is it bad because it's not like SF2? I
>don't understand.
The characters walk very sluggishly. But when they jump, it is way too
fast.
>>
>>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
>> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
>> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
>> fight)?
>This has got to be your worst point. Just think about what you are expecting
>in terms of realism. I guess it's fine that Ryu has completely drained
>Chun Li of all her life, but she is completely revived and healthy to
>fight in the next round in a second. Please.
Yeah, you're right.
>>
>>19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
>> 30% energy, and some moves even more.
>Kintaro is too hard. But, what truly makes him hard is that he can
>grab you out of ANYTHING.
>>20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
>> a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
>> their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
>> the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
>> and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
>> to last boss. They both have a fireball.
>Whatever. So he's a lot like Goro. Try beating Kintaro the same way you
>beat Goro. He's a new Goro, and I'm perfectly happy with that.
Well atleast they could have thought of an *original boss*?
>>
>>21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
>> left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
>OK. Here's where I make my big point. MK2 and SF2 are different games.
>MK2, in my opinion, is much more of a reflex, quick thinking game. SF2
>is more of a strategic game. MK2 is more like a shooter. So what?
>You like your game, I like mine. Our tastes say nothing about either of us.
Yup. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "shooter".
>>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
>> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
>Not anymore. I don't think that there is one discovered death trap
>that has not been eliminated.
Finally.
>>
>>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
>> Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
>> turn into everyone else?
>Few people players think that Shang Tsung is the absolute best. Morphing can
>be a big pain in the butt, because you are vulnerable on your way out. Are
>all characters in SF2 at the same level? Is Blanka as good as Ryu or Sagat?
Blanka is, if you use him right.
>>
>>25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
>> 2: To get their dose of violence.
>I play for neither of those reasons. I play for fun.
What do you find fun about MK2?
>>
>>26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
>> brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
>> person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
>> man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
>> be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
>> until the guy yells "fight" to start?
>Whatever. How seriously do you take these games?
Not very seriously. But the game tries to be too serious with its gory sound
effects and bloody graphics and ominous music and gloomy background.
>>28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
>> game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
>> yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
>> commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
>> hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
>> MK2.
>I haven't seen the commercials. Don't the SF2 home version commercials
>show fighting and Chun Li getting hurt?
Not in the ones I've seen.
>>
>>29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
>> is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
>> they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
>> brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
>I guess it's perfectly fair that Vega can cause his victims to bleed to
>death. Nobody said that MK2 was designed to be a sport people should
>play.
Look at SF2 more carefully. You'll notice that there is no blood and no one
bleeds to death when Vega wins. But you haven't really addressed my point.
>Andy
**John
Wells Daniel James
>>show fighting and Chun Li getting hurt?
>Not in the ones I've seen.
The aforementioned 'comercials' were not aired on TV TMK. I saw them at
an Electronic Boutique mall store, playing off a tape. They were part
of a sorta-infomercial on the SNES Turbo SF2(maybe the Classic release,
I don't remember). They were done with real actors and contained
extremely bad attempts at mimicking the special moves for Ryu, Chun Li,
and Bison, right down to that 'eerie' glow in Bison's eyes. Without
going into a lot of detail, they were easily stupid and corny, hardly
violent in any way.
Brian Odom
> Why MK2 Sucks - The Complete List (tm)
> ======================================
this is far from complete, but i'll jump in anyways...
this is a *long* post (hit 'n' if you don't want to read it all)
but, please read it!
also, if you quote from me, please DELETE most of this. if you don't, you
*will* get flamed from the people on the net (including me).
> 1) Violence. There is entirely too much of it in this game. Without it,
> no one would play MK2. Of course, someone is going to say,"Aw, poor
> little baby." But that is only because they don't want to admit it.
true, but that is what makes mk2, mk2. it's all about violence. i honestly
think if it there weren't any fatalities, this game would suck. the gameplay
is not there and all the glory is fatalities and showboating on who can
memorize what moves.
> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
well, this is not a valid reason why it would suck, but yes there are many
sf2 clones out there.
> 3) Blood. Why is it that when you throw a little punch, three gallons of
> that red stuff pours out of your opponent's head?
actually, it annoys me more than anything. it's too excessive to be realistic.
if one bleeds that damn much, you would be dead after about 2 hits.
> 4) Finish him! What? You beat up your opponent and then kill him? What
> kind of a game is this? You might as well kill your opponent in the
> beginning of the round...
yeah, it's cheesy, and this is why mk2 is so popular. without it, mk2 is
nothing. more time is spend with secret stuff rather than the game itself.
> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
> get just as many points for any of them.
no, which is why more was spend on useless crap. kids like to show off, ya
know. let's see....
1) dead pool
2) knock off the bridge
3) knock into the spikes
4,5) 2 fatalities per fighter
6) babality
7) friendship
and if you count shang tsung, you have 8 (since he has 3 fatalities).
is this all necessary??
> 6) The sound is terrible! The characters go Ka-yo-a-ya-yo! When you
> uppercut them, and when you hit them you hear a nerve-wracking crunch-
> splat. When the people say anything at all it's just "Bugalugalugalay!"
> or something like that. The players go Knock-knock-knock when they jump.
and people complain about ssf2's sound. sheesh. mk2 has the WORST sound
there is. i will admit that i did like mk1's sound, but mk2 sucks bigtime.
> 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
> get played over and over again.
i never even noticed it. maybe it's all the ee-ya-ee-ya, boogyboogyboogy
(liu kang), ah-oo-ah-oo, knocknocknock that i hear.
> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
> not the same, but that's a different matter.
yes, i about got into an argument with a kid today. he was trying to say
that sf2 moves are all the same and mk2 was different. ha! i tried to
explain to him, but he was very blockheaded. sf2 has variety, diversity, etc.
while mk2 has sameness, similarities, etc. when you fight against the computer
(more on this later), you fight them all the same way, because they are all
practically the same. just different motions to execute each individual's
moves.
> 9) Here we have 3 ninjas who look exactly the same (Sub Zero, Scorpion, and
> Reptile), except for a small bit of color on their black suit. Also,
> there are 2 ninja women who look the same (Kitana and Mileena) again,
> except for a bit of color. With 5 characters who have at least 1 clone,
> that doesn't look too much like 12 characters to me!
nope, it's not really 12 characters. if you count the secret characters,
you have 5 exact ninjas and 3 ninja women. hardly any difference at all.
>10) In MK1, the characters' moves were different from SF2. But in MK2,
> some of them are very similar. Where'd Cage learn that flying Uppercut?
> Can you say Ryu? Were did Liu Cang learn low and high fireballs? Gee, he
> couldn't have learned that from Sagat.
well, just because sf2 came first, i wouldn't go knocking mk2 just yet. they
tried to improve it, and looking at sf2 is the way to improve it. sure, it's
similar to sf2, but that's good actually. also, some new moves aren't from
sf2. (invisiblity, cage's arching projectiles, ground smashes, etc.)
>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
> for showing off.
totally useless and a way to show off. period. i remember earlier today, i
was getting into a slight argument with the same kid over mk2. i play raiden
(and sometimes sub-zero although since he is cheesy, he is not a crowd favorite
similar to how dominating CE bison was...) and i was playing the computer and
of course, having no fun while the computer would just throw me. i beat the
computer and the kid says, "don't you know the fatalities?" i say "no", even
though i do know them, but i find it very difficult (and pointless) to hold
down a button for 8 seconds to do some stupid cheesy looking fatality.
anyways, the kid tells me that i need to know them in order to get good and
then started to pull out his little faq cheat sheets and kept trying to tell
me how to do a friendship/babality while i'm trying to play the damn game.
so, since the kid knows it all, after i beat the computer, i let the kid show
off. he did the friendship for me and i said, "ooh neat, is this is what the
game is all about?". he says, "no, but it's cool" (sounding like beavis and
butthead). that's what this game is, it's for people like beavis and butthead.
i'm sure everyone has a story similar to this.
>12) It was an incomplete game for a while, then just countless upgrades.
really STUPID and CHEAP ASS marketing strategy. i don't want to hear any
excuses from midway, either. it was done INTENTIONALLY. never throw the
computer... fight the computer in the same order every game... even MISSING
moves. jeez! it's as if they looked at mk1 and just purposefully made it bad.
it's all about $$$. in mk1, you could throw the computer, you fought people
in different orders, hell, you even had bonus stages. in mk2, nothing was
there. missing moves, missing fatalities and missing secret characters
(like it matters), and a cheap ass computer who only knew how to throw a
projectile or throw you (repeatedly); that's it. uh-huh, the computer
throwing me 5 times in a row without a DAMN thing i could do. wow, it sure
wasn't play tested AT ALL.
>13) What about the bugs Midway overlooked? Game crashes, patterns that the
> computer could be fooled by, Sub Zero Perma Freeze that ruined that
> version of the game, etc.
it makes me wonder what goes on at midway. do they even play their own games
that they create????? i'm really beginning to wonder about this. at least
with sf2, their bugs were complex, so it would be tough to find, but mk2 had
SIMPLISTIC bugs.
>14) Damage inflicted by any move is too great. With those 25% damage flip-
> kicks and uppercuts, 15% special moves, it is annoying. The game
> gobbles up quarters too quickly.
heh, go play virtua fighters. i think the companies are starting to get way
too greedy. i saw wolf kill someone with 1 move the other day. well, actually
2 moves. the first move was a cheap kick, and the second move did about 90%
damage (elbow smash). wow....
but, yes, and the people who like mk2 argue that sf2 is combo based. bs!!!
go play someone who knows how to play kitana, jax, or liu kang really well
and they'll show you some combos... very damaging too...
>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
i most certainly don't, but some stupid kids who are brainwashed would.
and i thought super mario bros had too many secrets when it first came out....
>16) The game's controls stink! There are two kick buttons, two punch buttons,
> and a block button. The kicks and punches do the same damage, but hit
> slightly lower, so what use is there for them? No one uses the Low Punch
> and Low Kick anyway. What about special moves? The solution is obvious.
> Also, MK2's blocking is inconvenient.
actually, i only use low punch and low kick (and high punch when i try to
uppercut). but yes, the controls do suck. the characters take full steps
when walking. the controls are not very responsive and with all the taptap
moves, you can telegraph what a person is going to do (e.g., i know it when
i see a shang tsung player is going to change into someone or when reptile
tries to go invisible...)
>17) MK2's timing is unpolished. The characters walk too slow and jump too
> fast.
i really don't know what it is, but something is wrong with it. something
isn't right. stupid things like repeated foot sweeps are very gay combos...
>18) How can the players still be there ready to be selected when they just
> got their head chopped off or decapitated? Why don't they just make the
> round start with a headless Sub Zero (and lose right when they say
> fight)?
well, this is off the topic. go play time killers if you want more violence...
but, fatalities are eye-candy. they are MEANINGLESS. if there were meaning
to it, someone may start the round (for example) without a head or such, but
this just proves the point that it's all eye-candy and very meaningless.
>19) The boss Kintaro was made too tough. A single punch knocks off about
> 30% energy, and some moves even more.
yeah, it sure is an effective quarter-sucking technique. the only way to beat
it, is to find a pattern/flaw in the AI somewhere. like i said, i seriously
doubt it if this game was even played by the people who made it.
>20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
> a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
> their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
> the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
> and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
> to last boss. They both have a fireball.
ok, they are clones. everything in this game is cloned. this doesn't mean
mk2 sucks, just that it's not very original.
>21) There is very little strategy in MK2. After you know that, all there's
> left is to discover more fatalities and game secrets.
true, this is the major problem with it. the game loses its appeal VERY
quickly and all there is is the fatality stuff (like i said earlier, they
spent more time making the useless stuff than the game itself)
>22) MK2 has some death traps which will let you do the same 3 moves on an
> opponent until he/she dies. These ruin the game further.
yeah, just freeze the ground repeatedly while someone is in the corner. yay,
what fun!!! oh, do the fatality! yeah! no, turn him into a baby!!!
buy a sub-zero doll!!!! ooooooh, where can i get one of those? actually,
i would want kidd thunder... ugh, this game is sooooooo stooooooopid!!!
>23) The game is unbalanced. Some characters are better than others. Take
> Chang Tsung, for example. Now who _doesn't_ want to be him, since he can
> turn into everyone else?
actually, i don't since i don't want to be bothered with all the joystick
hoopla memorization crap. if you are a master, then yes, shang will probably
rule. but, the same thing goes in sf2. some characters are better than
others. while baraka, reptile and mileena suck in mk2; honda, blanka, and
cammy suck in ssf2. while sub-zero, jax, liu kang, and kitana rule in mk2,
so do dhalsim, sagat, HF ken/ryu, CE bison, and classic guile.
>24) Who would want to participate in a sport where you get mortally injured
> and die a horrible painfull death if you lose?
but is this a sport????? no, it's a video game. this is irrelevant.
if i want to get injured, i would take up boxing, but i don't so i play video
games.
>25) MK2 is only played by people for two reasons: 1: They want to show off.
> 2: To get their dose of violence.
actually, i think it's only the show off stuff. the violence draws them to
the game, then once they're there, then it's everyone carrying their little
cheat sheets around reading them after they lose, studying them, and then
ultimately memorizing them, so they can show off and turn people into babies,
and have them buy a scorpion doll, sign autographs, blahblahblah....
i think this is supposed to be a fighting game, but it's not that. it's ok
if the programmers want to have a little fun, but they went overboard. way
overboard.
>26) Why is this game so SEROIUS!?!!? It is no fun at all! The way they
> brutalize each other and cry in anguish, and are so cheap. They grab a
> person already on the ground and toss him a few more times, and hit a
> man falling through the air with some more attacks? This is supposed to
> be a sport, like kick-boxing! If it isn't, why do the characters wait
> until the guy yells "fight" to start?
well, this is one's opinion. it's not a sport, it's a video game, since you
can't seem to get that through your head. i'm not trying to flame you, but
this isn't a reason why mk2 sucks. also, the characters wait until the guy
yells "fight" in sf2 and all the clones i've seen thus far. what's your point?
>27) One of the backgrounds shows a big Yin and Yang symbol on the ground and
> one on a stone slab above it. Why cheapen it?
but why does this make mk2 suck? to tell the truth, i've never noticed this.
but backgrounds are also eye-candy. why does this make mk2 suck? please
answer this...
>28) What's with Mortal Kombat II's commercials!? They show a kid winning that
> game, then kicking a plate of cookies out of his mother's hands, then
> yelling at her (as if violence from the GAME wasn't enough...). Another
> commercial shows a bunch of 12 or 13 year old punk-type kids with their
> hat on backwards and this stupid "I'm a cooler than u, man" look playing
> MK2.
i haven't seen them, but this is irrelevant to the game.
>29) One of the most important reasons why MK2 sucks. In my experience, it
> is considered fair play NOT to hit a man when he's down. In MK and MK2,
> they kill people when they're knocked out. This is a new idea being
> brought into our culture, and it's vicious.
fair play to not hit a man when he's knocked down??? go play virtua fighter...
or go play wrestling. so what if you kill them when they're knocked out;
they're dead anyways. i don't see anything wrong with fatalities, it's just
that i think they're stupid and pointless.
>Well, you wanted a few reasons why MK2 sucks, you got them.
you didn't even cover the main reasons...
1) throwing
i think i've thrown the computer maybe 3-4 times total. it's not fun at all
to play by yourself. the computer traps you in the corner and then starts
cheaping you left and right and throwing you. the throws go to the person
standing up, not the person falling down. watch the computer fight itself,
it throws the same way. basically, you can't counterthrow in this game.
throws are a big part of fighting games and this part is SERIOUSLY messed up
and distracts newcomers from playing the games.
2) computer
with the advent of cheap throwing comes the cheap computer. the object to beat
the computer is to jump at it and jump away and stay away. so, you fight all
the opponents the same way. you have to stay away from the computer and stay
out of the corner REGARDLESS of who you're fighting, which goes to show that
all the characters are truly clones of themselves...
3) damage
yes, the damage is quite heavy in this game. a simple jump kick, foot sweep
does quite a bit. but, this is unique to this game, so if the damage is
consistent with all characters, i guess it's ok....
4) graphics
i don't care what most people say, the graphics suck. as i have commented
before in r.g.v.a, look at how stupid the characters looked from before.
i play raiden, so i get annoyed looking at his jump kick seeing how short his
little leg is, and how he looks like a crossing guard, etc. they are really
cheesy looking, but hey, they are consistent. with ssf2, the graphics look
better, IMHO, but the new characters don't match.
5) playability
with graphics aside, graphics shouldn't matter much if you have a good game.
the game itself isn't very good. also, they are constantly revising it and
hacking it. basically, the game is buggy and probably is poorly coded.
hacking and fixing bugs ain't gonna do it. probably a total rewrite is in
store or possibly mk3. the gameplay (damage, throws, etc.) is not a good game.
there's not many moves you can do (exluding fatalities, babalities, etc.)
gosh, isn't babality the most STUPID word you've ever heard? what's next?
hospitality? sort of a mild fatality except that you don't kill them, they
simply go to the hospital... :^)
6) kudos
too many secret gibberish. this is what the game is about. so i guess when
i say the game plays sucks, i should be referring to the fatalities et al.
this reminds me of the day i saw these kids running around with their little
cheat sheets when they got the 3.1. they were pumping in money just to show
off to their friends how to make liu kang dance, etc. very pointless....
i can't use punch if i want to do a babality or friendship. wheeee. why can't
i use punch? just to show off and say, "whoa i beat you with only kicks and
i'm so good, i turned you into a baby"... it's all an ego boost and a good
game shouldn't have to resort to stupid shit like this. i get an ego boost
(in sf2) from simple things like a counter throw or winning a close fight.
that's the difference. i feel good when *playing* the game, NOT when i've
already beaten the opponent and have to finish him. in mk2, all people live
for is the fatalities. even though i know it wont happen, but what if midway
took out the fatalities (due to some law suit since little johnny killed his
little brother by doing a fatality -- something stupid), would people still
play this game? i would think not, since the "game" *is* the fatalities
nonsense. i can see the kids now, "whoa, my fatalities don't work anymore, who
has the new cheat sheets?? uh, this game isn't cool anymore..."
7) marketing
yeah, sell arcade owners (at a hefty price) an incomplete game. THEN, make
then buy upgrades (2.0+ and 3.0+). i'm wondering when the 4.0's are coming
out. then, they'll have bonus stages, baraka will finally get a new move since
he has one less than everyone else and cool new fatalities (of course). and
people say that sf2 has a lot a different revisions. i honestly feel that
each different revision of mk2 is a different game similar to sf2. just think
about it, all capcom did was add a few moves, alter the speed a bit, take out
bugs, and tweak a few things (like dizzies, invulnerabilities of certain moves,
etc.), but isn't this what mk2 did with all its revisions? what makes mk2
the same game and sf2's different revisions different games? all midway did
was add new moves and such, but emphasis was placed mainly on more fatalities
and (trying to) remove bugs. not much on gameplay, if any. the problem is
the game was GROSSLY incomplete (both games, the gameplay and the fatality part
of the game). sf2's revisions were complete and were not released days after
the other one was released. if you release something, make it right and make
it stick. midway doesn't know what they're doing. they've made PLENTY of
money from mk1, nba jam, (did they make the pac-man series), etc., but still
are money grubbers by releasing something that isn't even complete. man,
that's truly low.
what is midway anyways? i'm confused. are they the same as bally and
williams? help me, cuz i don't know. i usually see the 3 names mentioned
as 1 quite often. are bally/williams/midway separate companies???
overall, sf2 is a much better game than mk2. but i think the reason people
play mk2 is for 2 reasons.
1) fatalities
2) getting bored with sf2
the competition has flocked to mk2 because of the decline of sf2. today, i was
playing hyper fighting and enjoying it more than super. i don't like super
anymore, and i was the last one who really played it a lot. mk2 is probably
the second best fighting game there is, so people want something new. i don't
think mk2's gameplay sucks very badly, but i feel it pales in comparison to
sf2. many of the neo-geo and other clones are worse than mk2, so this can
explain why the competition has flocked. since ssf2 wasn't very popular, it
was either mk, hyper fighting, or mk2. this can explain why people went with
mk2. now that hssf2 is coming out, i expect hssf2 to flop even more than ssf2.
does anyone else think this too? then when that flops, this newsgroup will
go down the tubes too. even though sf2 is superior IMHO, it is becoming quite
boring to many players.
also, the way mk2 attracts people is disgusting. the gameplay CAN be a lot
better, but there are boneheads who work for midway and won't even play test
their own game. they just want to have fun. hey, testing a fatality is a lot
easier than testing a change in gameplay, so they will simply add more and more
fatalities since this is what people like....
so, there you have it...
sf2 is a much better *game* than mk2 IMHO, but more people play mk2, which
means there is more competition, which means more people will flock to it.
sf2 has gotten quite old, and it hurts me to say and admit this.
--
GCS?: -d+ p c(+++) u+ e++ s++/- n(---) h* f? !g w++@ t? r-- y+@
RYU
>>11) The Babalities and Friendship Fatalities are good for nothing, except
>> for showing off.
I see only one reason for the friendships and babalities (which I think
are the best part about the game - I seriously dislike MKII).
The fact that you played an entire round and didn't use the punch
button once. Wake up people. Friendships and babalities are the ultimate
slap in the face! They are there so that FAR superior players can make
their quivering opponents look like dolts.
"I beat that guy without even punching! Just kicks!"
THAT'S what friendships are there for.
Lloyd "Monty" Clark
Dave Moore
>>> for showing off.
>button once. Wake up people. Friendships and babalities are the ultimate
>slap in the face! They are there so that FAR superior players can make
>their quivering opponents look like dolts.
> "I beat that guy without even punching! Just kicks!"
> THAT'S what friendships are there for.
You're absolutely right. That's nothing like showing off at all!
(Oh my god! Is he kidding? What is this guy thinking!)
...This article has been close captioned for the sarcasm impaired...
...Dave
--=---=--
Dave Moore - Student at Large, Reed College
dmo...@reed.edu
--=---=--
Julien B Beasley
Eu-Ming's way is the nice way of solving the river problem. Devin, you
must be pretty damn good with algebra, because the hard way is HARD!
Not only are the equations large and annoying, but there is one variable
too many. You have to realize it can't be zero and divide it out.
Okay, you guys took that one WAY too easily. Here is a problem I had
on one of my first mechanics problem sets first semester:
A boy stand on a peak of a hill which slopes downward uniformly at angle
a. At what angle b from the horizonal should he throw a rock so that it
has the greatest range. (If a is zero, b is 45 degrees, as we all know).
_________
\ angle a
\
\
\
\
hill \
If you guys get this one, I almost give up.
-Julien
PS: Eu-Ming, what about the car problem?
--
I chisel your gravestone... Sleep well.
John Nishinaga
j...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Julien B Beasley) writes:
> A boy stand on a peak of a hill which slopes downward uniformly at angle a.
> At what angle b from the horizonal should he throw a rock so that it has
> the greatest range. (If a is zero, b is 45 degrees, as we all know).
>
> _________
> \ angle a
> \
> \
> \
> \
> hill \
Optimal angle b = pi/4 - a/2.
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
Ian Donaldson
> But each character has the *same* high punches, sweeps, standing kicks, etc.
>Compare, say Ryu's sweep to Vega's.. Zangief's fierce punch to Cammy's..
>there are inherent differences in the characters other than the special moves.
>I know there are some differences in the MKII characters, but those are the
>exceptions, rather than the rule.
But they are not! (Okay, I'll give you standing punches). All the other moves
look different and act diferent. Perhaps you are forgeting the pixel boundary
system of MK2 can make apparently small differences big in actual combat. They
all take different times, have different attack pattens, eg look at Sub-Zero's
jump kick and Liu Kangs. Kangs is very short and flat, hard to hit with where
SZ's is nice and wide and easy to hit. But if it is blocked, Kang is going
to have more seperation to play with that old SZ ..
Ian
Chris D Koeberle
> >> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It justified itself
> >> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
> >Some people would say that anything which has two fighters, controlled by
> >two separate people, which use punches, kicks and special moves to try and
> >defeat their opponent would be a rip-off from SF2. In some sense, they would
> I'll agree with that... I wonder what game SF is a rip-off from? I can bet
> that there has been many fighting games like that BEFORE Street Fighter!
> So thie number 2) reason doesn't have any validity at all.
Well, actually...
As far as i can recall, before sf, we had... (all i know are arcade and
ibm, btw)
Punch-Out, other boxing games, can't remember if there were really any
with the same format as sf, though (viewed from the side, not the
perspective of the assailant/player.
The vs. mode in nintendo versions of games like Double Dragon. (though
the style of dd is close to sf, compared to most of the stuff that was
out there)
Karateka, though i never did get to play that one... so i couldn't tell
you how close it was. there were a few others like that. some were
pretty close, some weren't. most had jumping, and such... the closest
to sf from this genre, actually, was probably the kung-fu game whose name
i cannot remember... it came out for the nintendo shortly after the nes
came out... i remember pots dropping from the ceiling and snakes coming
out, and evil bees flying around. but that's all i can remember of it.
lastly... the game that probably gave the most to sf...
Yie Ar Kung-Fu. Well, i assume it did. it sure >looks< like it did. it
didn't have the special moves... but no game did, with the exception of
the pathetic moves in double dragon. it >did< have the one-on-one format
(no player vs. player mode, though), the monstrous jumps across the
screen, a >serious< variety of opponents, the view from the side just
like sf, and strangely enough, your first opponent looks a >lot< like e.
honda. (and yes, i know e. honda didn't even make sf. but... well,
he even had the sumo torpedo thing.)
anyway... just some ramblings. i'd be interested to know what other
people can contribute to the heritage of sf.
--
_ __/| Chris Koeberle
\`O.o' koeb...@utdallas.edu
=(_ _)= these stacks they keep me down... so i build some more
U america's just a word but i use it... -- Fugazi
Warren L. Mohn
> > >> 2) It is a rip-off from SF2 in style, form, and content. It
justified itself
> > >> with disgusting blood, gore, and fatalities.
>
> > >Some people would say that anything which has two fighters,
controlled by
> > >two separate people, which use punches, kicks and special moves to
try and
> > >defeat their opponent would be a rip-off from SF2. In some sense,
they would
>
> > I'll agree with that... I wonder what game SF is a rip-off from? I can
bet
> > that there has been many fighting games like that BEFORE Street
Fighter!
I'd say SF was most directly taken derived from Karate Champ. It was
player vs. player, had two joysticks for each player, with which, you
could do different moves. The game did not use an energy/life bar, it
used a point system like martial arts contests. It even had bonus stages
just like SFII. Overall, Karate Champ is still a fun game to play and is
still reasonably challenging. I wouldn't mind new fighting games to use
the two joystick system instead of one joystick and six buttons.
Frank Syma
I always felt that SF1 was an improvement on Karate Champ.
I belive you could even block in it. Karate Champ even had bonus
rounds, you had to flip over a bull or something like that.
There was also another figthing game that came out before SF2 and
I don't remember the name. There was a kick and punch buttons, I'm
unsure if there was a jump button. Anyways you could land light attacks
and strong attacks. I remember the the words Bagoom! or Kaboom! being
displayed on the screen, similar to old Batman movies. This also had
bonus rounds where you had to fight a tiger, and if you won your
life increased similar to AOF. If I remember correctly there were
boxes in the background that could be broken if you smashed your
opponent into them. Someone else has bound to have seen this game.
laters,
Frank.
Su, Kai-Chang J
The game you are talking about with the words Bagoom! and Kabbomm! was
a game called "Violence Fighter". MK did not follow in the footsteps
of SF2...I will argue that MK has a format similar to two IBM games
the first was called Bushido: the way of the warrior(not Budokan) and
the second game was Karateka. MK2 is like a Karateka version of
Yie Ar Kung-Fu. In Karateka you have HK,MK,LK and HP,MP,LP which is
remarkably similar to Karateka's design. SF2 is more like a synthesis
between Kung Fu Master and Yie Ar Kung-Fu. Anyways, here is my list
of the forefathers of all "fighting" games to date and what made them
different:
1)Yie Ar Kung Fu - is the father of all martial arts game. In YAKF, you
have a hero (OLong) who fights in a side screen perspective
against a HUGE variety of Kung-Fu experts. The first opponent
OLong has to face resembles E.Honda a LOT. YAKF has a KO
energy bar which is found in many fighting games today. YAKF
had a huge variety of moves based on a button combination with
any one of the eight directions on the stick.
2)Shanghai - is the first 'clone' fighting game. Shanghai resembled
YAKF except that in Shanghai one could block and attacks had
to be made on special strike zone which are highlighted.
Shanghai is also the first fighting game which allowed one-
to-one fights.
3)Kung Fu Master - is the first fighting that allowed the character to
do repeated strikes. Depressing the button quickier produced
some devastating results. Also depressing the punch button
in rapid succession produced punches with alternating hands.
The quick standing short kick and squatting short kicks of SF2
resemble Kung-Fu Master's movements. Also the alternating punches
in MK2 resemble the punches in Kung-Fu Master.
4)Karate Champ - is the first and only fighting game that did not use
buttons. Instead, two joysticks moved in four different directions
produced combinations and moves. Karate Champ is also the first
game to have "distance" moves. If you are far away you will
do something different than if you are in close range. Some people
will remember Karate Champ as the first blocking game; however,
as I mentioned before Shanghai was the first game the blocking
by pulling back was possible.
5)Double Dragon - spawned the "3-D" perspective fighting game madness.
Double Dragon clones include such hits as Final Fight, Streets
of Rage, and many more...from this point on we will only discuss
the side prespective fighting games.
6)Karateka - the first fighting game to have directional attack button
format: High Kick, Middle Kick, Low Kick, High Punch, Middle
Punch, Low Punch.
7)Street Fighter - the first and only fighting game to have pressure
sensitive buttons which produced different damages when struck.
SF is the first fighting game to have variable damage which was
measured by the depression of the pressure sensitive buttons.
SF is also the first fighting game which allowed the player to do
secret moves which were executed by different combinations of
joystick and buttons.
7 1/2) Ring King - the first fighting game (even though it is a boxing game
and boxing is suppose to be a sport) to have a block button. Blocking
is not performed by pulling away on the stick.
8)Pit Fighter - the first digitized fighting game. Also the first fighting
to have "combinations."
9)Street Smart - this fighting game bears resemblance to good ol Double
Dragon but it is worth mentioning because it was the first fighting
game which had throws. Throwing (as it is done in all modern
fighter) was preformed by pushing the punch button when up close
to the opponent.
10)Street Fighter 2 - this is the first fighting game which allowed the
players to select different characters who personified different
"styles" and playing characteristics.
11)Mortal Kombat - the first fighting game that allowed the player to "kill"
the opponent with Fatalities. Also the first fighting game which
has a hidden character. MK has a karateka type button format.
Other honorable mentions in terms of fatherhood to fighting games: Bushido
the way of the warrior, Budokan, Fencing, Kicker, and believe or not...
Time Killers (yes, this is a terrible game, but it is the first one to allow
fighters to use weapons...besides Fencing)
The most influencial fighting game in my honest opponent (IMHO) is Yie Ar
Kung Fu. Every "good" fighting game resembles YAKF in some way. Bucho the
first enemy in YAKF looks like E.Honda (Bucho even has a flying type attack).
When you kick Bucho in the balls his eyes light up (like MK Johnny Cage's
groining punch). YAKF had a fan girl who tossed fans like Kitana in MK2.
YAKF even had a Nuchuka guy --- look at Fei Long's rice failing session when
he wins. YAKF had lots of enemies with weapons - 1)chain, 2)throwing stars,
3)club and shield 4)fans 5)pole 6)sword 7)tonfa...every enemy had a unique
style and feel.
The next most influencial fighting game in terms of fatherhood is IMHO
Street Fighter 2. Yes, SF2 is VERY influencial when it comes to design --
look at every scrub Neo*Geo fighting game...remind you of SF2?
The most popular fighting game to date is IMHO Mortal Kombat 2. No fighting
game has been played more than MK2 has...just look at your local arcade.
SF2:CE came close to MK1 in the most played department , but MK2 has just
blow away the competition.
MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
confirm this. Other Stuff like invisibility came up in Budokan but things
like morphing and such are visual effects which MK1 & 2 started at least
in the fighting game department.
Anyways, if you want to add to this list, or make comments, or just flame me
please feel free to do so.
Chris D Koeberle
> I always felt that SF1 was an improvement on Karate Champ.
I had forgotten about that game! You're right... SF did borrow a >lot<
from it, especially the funky scoring. Now i want to know which one came
first, KC or YAKF.
> I belive you could even block in it. Karate Champ even had bonus
> rounds, you had to flip over a bull or something like that.
> There was also another figthing game that came out before SF2 and
> I don't remember the name. There was a kick and punch buttons, I'm
> unsure if there was a jump button. Anyways you could land light attacks
> and strong attacks. I remember the the words Bagoom! or Kaboom! being
> displayed on the screen, similar to old Batman movies. This also had
> bonus rounds where you had to fight a tiger, and if you won your
> life increased similar to AOF. If I remember correctly there were
> boxes in the background that could be broken if you smashed your
> opponent into them. Someone else has bound to have seen this game.
I'm at a loss on this one... Anyone?
> laters,
> Frank.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Su, Kai-Chang J <kjs0...@elroy.uh.edu> wrote:
[lllooooonnnnng list snipped]
>MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
>genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
>Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
>such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
>confirm this. Other Stuff like invisibility came up in Budokan but things
>like morphing and such are visual effects which MK1 & 2 started at least
>in the fighting game department.
Eh? How are ChunLi and Honda visually ripped from Johnny Cage??? They
both look almost the same as their Classic versions.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Milo Cooper
>Kung Fu. Every "good" fighting game resembles YAKF in some way. Bucho the
>first enemy in YAKF looks like E.Honda (Bucho even has a flying type attack).
>When you kick Bucho in the balls his eyes light up (like MK Johnny Cage's
>groining punch). YAKF had a fan girl who tossed fans like Kitana in MK2.
>YAKF even had a Nuchuka guy --- look at Fei Long's rice failing session when
>he wins. YAKF had lots of enemies with weapons - 1)chain, 2)throwing stars,
>3)club and shield 4)fans 5)pole 6)sword 7)tonfa...every enemy had a unique
>style and feel.
What is all of this nonsense about Buchu (not Bucho) being
like E. Honda? The only resemblance was their extreme weight. Buchu
wore pants, Honda wears a tablecloth. Buchu was bald. He wore shoes.
I agree that Yie Ar Kung Fu was the best fighting game out
before Street Fighter II. The enemies, as best I can recall, in or-
der of appearance, were:
1. Buchu: Big fat wrestling dude, no weapon.
2. Star: Female shuriken-thrower, stars could be kicked/punched safely.
3. Nuncha: Man dressed in yellow who used Nunchaku.
4. Pole: Little dude dressed in green with bo-stick for weapon.
5. Feedle: Bonus round gang of short guys who emerged from sides of
screen; they could not kill Oolong (the player).
6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
7. Club: Fat guy with club and shield.
8. Sword: Bearded and moustached sword wielder.
9. Fan: Female dressed in robes who threw razor fans all about.
Her fans could be kicked/punched safely.
10. Tonfun: Long-haired man in green with two tonfun weapons, one
on each arm.
11. Blues: Weaponless, shirtless martial arts expert.
After the defeat of Blues, the game would begin again at Buchu,
with a progressive increase in difficulty. The agenda of opponents
was called the "Hot Fighting History."
>MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
>genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
>Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
>such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
>confirm this.
Besides this, what other graphics candy has Street Fighter
snaked from Mortal Kombat? Name me one more item.
BY THE WAY, FOR ALL OF YOU MORTAL KOMBAT ADVOCATES:
---------------------------------------------------
Only a willfully oblivious person could fail to recognize
that Mortal Kombat owes its very soul to Street Fighter. Let us
not kid ourselves, nor anyone else, okay? Ed Boon himself (pro-
grammer of MK I & II) has expressly stated that Mortal Kombat is
Street Fighter progeny. Mortal Kombat is no kind of evolution in
the chapter of fighting video games. It is a clone of the most
successful (and deservedly so) product in video game history, no-
thing more, easter eggs or no easter eggs. Mortal Kombat is a
fine game, but it merely feeds off a legend of sorts.
__m d c__
|1 9 9 4| Milo D. Cooper (mdco...@crash.cts.com)
~~~~~~~~~
RPM
Su? Grrr....
I'll ignore Mista Su for the moment, 'cause this is just too good of a topic
to ignore, so
Milo Cooper writes:
> What is all of this nonsense about Buchu (not Bucho) being
>like E. Honda? The only resemblance was their extreme weight. Buchu
>wore pants, Honda wears a tablecloth. Buchu was bald. He wore shoes.
Well, both are biggie boys who had a torpedo attack. The only great
difference between them was their clothing.
> I agree that Yie Ar Kung Fu was the best fighting game out
>before Street Fighter II. The enemies, as best I can recall, in or-
>der of appearance, were:
Lemme say, if I ever saw YAKF in an arcade today, I wouldn't hesitate to
play it. It was that good.
man, I miss that game!
> 1. Buchu: Big fat wrestling dude, no weapon.
- Honda prototype
> 2. Star: Female shuriken-thrower, stars could be kicked/punched safely.
- Geki (SF1) prototype.
> 3. Nuncha: Man dressed in yellow who used Nunchaku.
- incredibly small connection to Fei Long (Fei's nunchaku win pose) but
otherwise has utterly failed to evolve as other incarnations.
> 4. Pole: Little dude dressed in green with bo-stick for weapon.
- Billy Kane prototype
> 5. Feedle: Bonus round gang of short guys who emerged from sides of
> screen; they could not kill Oolong (the player).
They couldn't??? are you sure?
> 6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
Hm. I'm stumped. maybe.....
- prototype for Dhalsim? (long reach)
- see also Power Instinct. There's an amazon babe who lashes out a whip
much like Chain does.
> 7. Club: Fat guy with club and shield.
er...
- prototype of that fat Viking guy in WH2...
> 8. Sword: Bearded and moustached sword wielder.
- prototype of Vega. Barely.
> 9. Fan: Female dressed in robes who threw razor fans all about.
> Her fans could be kicked/punched safely.
- prototype of Mai Shirauni.
No, actually, Fan was 100 times more deadly than her, shooting
out CHAINS of fans that had the ability to chase you down!
>10. Tonfun: Long-haired man in green with two tonfun weapons, one
> on each arm.
Hm. Ya got me.
>11. Blues: Weaponless, shirtless martial arts expert.
Blues was the clone of your player. This was the steriotypical wandering
warrior that appeared in every game.
> After the defeat of Blues, the game would begin again at Buchu,
>with a progressive increase in difficulty. The agenda of opponents
>was called the "Hot Fighting History."
>
>>MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
>>genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
>>Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
>>such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
>>confirm this.
>
> Besides this, what other graphics candy has Street Fighter
>snaked from Mortal Kombat? Name me one more item.
>
> BY THE WAY, FOR ALL OF YOU MORTAL KOMBAT ADVOCATES:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Only a willfully oblivious person could fail to recognize
>that Mortal Kombat owes its very soul to Street Fighter. Let us
>not kid ourselves, nor anyone else, okay? Ed Boon himself (pro-
>grammer of MK I & II) has expressly stated that Mortal Kombat is
>Street Fighter progeny. Mortal Kombat is no kind of evolution in
>the chapter of fighting video games. It is a clone of the most
>successful (and deservedly so) product in video game history, no-
>thing more, easter eggs or no easter eggs. Mortal Kombat is a
>fine game, but it merely feeds off a legend of sorts.
>
> __m d c__
> |1 9 9 4| Milo D. Cooper (mdco...@crash.cts.com)
> ~~~~~~~~~
well said, Milo!
-Rpm
Charles B. Ireland IV
: >> 5) Do you need three or four ways to kill your foe in the most gruesome
: >> way possible? One way is enough (if you need one), seeing as how you
: >> get just as many points for any of them.
: You don't get any points in MK games... That's SFII you are thinking of...
: Caroline...
So does that make MK "pointless?" :^)
C. B. Ireland
Su, Kai-Chang J
>Su, Kai-Chang J <kjs0...@elroy.uh.edu> wrote:
>>
>>The most influencial fighting game in my honest opponent (IMHO) is Yie Ar
>>Kung Fu. Every "good" fighting game resembles YAKF in some way. Bucho the
>>first enemy in YAKF looks like E.Honda (Bucho even has a flying type attack).
>>When you kick Bucho in the balls his eyes light up (like MK Johnny Cage's
>>groining punch). YAKF had a fan girl who tossed fans like Kitana in MK2.
>>YAKF even had a Nuchuka guy --- look at Fei Long's rice failing session when
>>he wins. YAKF had lots of enemies with weapons - 1)chain, 2)throwing stars,
>>3)club and shield 4)fans 5)pole 6)sword 7)tonfa...every enemy had a unique
>>style and feel.
>
> What is all of this nonsense about Buchu (not Bucho) being
>like E. Honda? The only resemblance was their extreme weight. Buchu
>wore pants, Honda wears a tablecloth. Buchu was bald. He wore shoes.
> I agree that Yie Ar Kung Fu was the best fighting game out
>before Street Fighter II. The enemies, as best I can recall, in or-
>der of appearance, were:
Buchu flew across the screen like Honda does now...
> 1. Buchu: Big fat wrestling dude, no weapon.
> 2. Star: Female shuriken-thrower, stars could be kicked/punched safely.
> 3. Nuncha: Man dressed in yellow who used Nunchaku.
> 4. Pole: Little dude dressed in green with bo-stick for weapon.
> 5. Feedle: Bonus round gang of short guys who emerged from sides of
> screen; they could not kill Oolong (the player).
> 6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
> 7. Club: Fat guy with club and shield.
> 8. Sword: Bearded and moustached sword wielder.
> 9. Fan: Female dressed in robes who threw razor fans all about.
> Her fans could be kicked/punched safely.
>10. Tonfun: Long-haired man in green with two tonfun weapons, one
> on each arm.
>11. Blues: Weaponless, shirtless martial arts expert.
>
> After the defeat of Blues, the game would begin again at Buchu,
>with a progressive increase in difficulty. The agenda of opponents
>was called the "Hot Fighting History."
>
>>MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
>>genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
>>Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
>>such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
>>confirm this.
>
> Besides this, what other graphics candy has Street Fighter
>snaked from Mortal Kombat? Name me one more item.
The new Turbo SF2 has not so far used anymore graphic candy from MK2, but
many other games have already done so. Dragon Ball Z- they used the
Cage shadow effect too. But many more games in the future will probably
use more graphic 'candy' from MK. These things look really cool in MK
: Cage's shadowkick/elbow Raiden's teleportation Shang Tsung's morph
Reptile's invisibility Smoke effects from burns-Acid/Fireball
Kung Lao/Mileena through the screen teleports
other various graphical effects
> BY THE WAY, FOR ALL OF YOU MORTAL KOMBAT ADVOCATES:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Only a willfully oblivious person could fail to recognize
>that Mortal Kombat owes its very soul to Street Fighter. Let us
>not kid ourselves, nor anyone else, okay? Ed Boon himself (pro-
>grammer of MK I & II) has expressly stated that Mortal Kombat is
>Street Fighter progeny. Mortal Kombat is no kind of evolution in
>the chapter of fighting video games. It is a clone of the most
>successful (and deservedly so) product in video game history, no-
>thing more, easter eggs or no easter eggs. Mortal Kombat is a
>fine game, but it merely feeds off a legend of sorts.
I guess if Mortal Kombat owes it success to SF2 then MK must be a
better product than SF2. MK the original made more money than SF2
any version. It looks like MK2 will probably make more money than
MK1. So then Mortal Kombat (the clone of SF2...^smiley face here^)
is more successful (moneywise at least) than SF2.
Chris D Koeberle
> I'd say SF was most directly taken derived from Karate Champ. It was
> player vs. player, had two joysticks for each player, with which, you
> could do different moves. The game did not use an energy/life bar, it
> used a point system like martial arts contests. It even had bonus stages
> just like SFII. Overall, Karate Champ is still a fun game to play and is
> still reasonably challenging. I wouldn't mind new fighting games to use
> the two joystick system instead of one joystick and six buttons.
The only thing that i disagree with here is that the style and feel of kc
are >very< different from sf, and more so from sf2. the two-joystick
idea is neat... except that the way the two joysticks were used in kc is
>entirely< different from how they'd be used in a sf-like... if i
remember correctly, no moves required joystick >movements<... all were
positionally determined. unlike sf. which is the one thing that turned
me off of kc. i would have to say, overall, that yie ar kung-fu was
easily as much a direct influence on sf as kc... and >certainly< more
influential on sf2. everything in sf2 is so much looser, like yakf.
damn. now i >really< feel like going to play yakf. wish i knew where to
find a machine. *sigh*
Chris D Koeberle
> In article <CMBsu...@crash.cts.com>, mdco...@crash.cts.com (Milo Cooper) writes...
> >In article <7MAR1994...@elroy.uh.edu>,
> >Su, Kai-Chang J <kjs0...@elroy.uh.edu> wrote:
> > 5. Feedle: Bonus round gang of short guys who emerged from sides of
> > screen; they could not kill Oolong (the player).
> They couldn't??? are you sure?
I queried this when i saw it, myself. Now i'm sure - feedle could kill
you. I remember that if you let feedle get out of hand, they completely
destroyed you.
> > 6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
> Hm. I'm stumped. maybe.....
> - prototype for Dhalsim? (long reach)
That's reaching. i do remember that chain was one of my favorite
opponents. fighting him was just fun.
> > 8. Sword: Bearded and moustached sword wielder.
> - prototype of Vega. Barely.
Actually, might be.
> > 9. Fan: Female dressed in robes who threw razor fans all about.
> > Her fans could be kicked/punched safely.
> - prototype of Mai Shirauni.
> No, actually, Fan was 100 times more deadly than her, shooting
> out CHAINS of fans that had the ability to chase you down!
Fan was the other one i >really< liked to fight. She was >damned< fun.
fans were easy to dodge, though. Was fan this late in the line-up,
though? seems like she was earlier, i know i >always< got to her...
> >10. Tonfun: Long-haired man in green with two tonfun weapons, one
> > on each arm.
> Hm. Ya got me.
Vega?
Milo Cooper
Su, Kai-Chang J <kjs0...@jane.uh.edu> wrote:
+In article <CMBsu...@crash.cts.com>, mdco...@crash.cts.com (Milo Cooper) writes...
+
+> BY THE WAY, FOR ALL OF YOU MORTAL KOMBAT ADVOCATES:
+> ---------------------------------------------------
+> Only a willfully oblivious person could fail to recognize
+>that Mortal Kombat owes its very soul to Street Fighter. Let us
+>not kid ourselves, nor anyone else, okay? Ed Boon himself (pro-
+>grammer of MK I & II) has expressly stated that Mortal Kombat is
+>Street Fighter progeny. Mortal Kombat is no kind of evolution in
+>the chapter of fighting video games. It is a clone of the most
+>successful (and deservedly so) product in video game history, no-
+>thing more, easter eggs or no easter eggs. Mortal Kombat is a
+>fine game, but it merely feeds off a legend of sorts.
+
+I guess if Mortal Kombat owes it success to SF2 then MK must be a
+better product than SF2. MK the original made more money than SF2
+any version. It looks like MK2 will probably make more money than
+MK1. So then Mortal Kombat (the clone of SF2...^smiley face here^)
+is more successful (moneywise at least) than SF2.
No offense, but this is a non-issue, as Mortal Kombat
cost players twice as much (fifty cents) to play on its release
than Street Fighter II's, in most locations. Besides, who can
deny that monetary gain is not, in itself, a valid barometer
for quality? Nintendo makes more money off Gameboy than Atari
does Lynx, yet the Lynx is the infintely superior of the two.
However, if you wish to indulge the argument of capital gain, then
I shall declare that Nintendo made millions off the release of the
first Street Fighter II cartridge, for consumers were purchasing
Super Nintendos just to play the game (I myself am one of that
group).
Patrick Jason Soo Hoo
>MK did not follow in the footsteps of SF2...I will argue that MK has a
>format similar to two IBM games the first was called Bushido: the way
>of the warrior(not Budokan) and the second game was Karateka.
Hmm, you must agree that the popularity of SF2 is what brought MK into
production in the first place, no? MK seems more of a different flavor
of SF2 -- the programmers taking SF2's basic skeleton and making
improvements (or, "improvements") that they thought would fit well --
scanned graphics, hi-res sound samples, blood, fatalities. It's not bad
in the sense of them marketing a finished concept; MK is certainly a
complete product. But you have to wonder if they were really big fans
of the original SF2 or not -- they didn't include a lot of SF2's clever
nuances. Mainly, the differences across characters, and the
fine-grained smoothness of the way everything interacted.
So, IMO (no H), MK is just a watered-down version of SF2, where only the
obvious things are preserved -- special moves, themed multiple character
selections, dizzying, etc. Gone is the smoothness of play and the
overall elegance of structure, in favor of splashy effect. At least
that's the way it feels to me -- though it doesn't mean it can't be fun
for someone else, who might be looking for different things in a
fighting game. It _does_ mean I can look down on them, feeling secure
in the knowledge that I have the finer taste. ^_^
Anyways, just some nitpicks on the list: (which was very nice)
>Time Killers (yes, this is a terrible game, but it is the first one to allow
>fighters to use weapons...besides Fencing)
You're being disrespectful to Budokan by saying this. :) Budokan
allowed you the choice of fighting with fist, nunchaku, wooden sword,
and bo, remember? And it did it much better. (though that kind of goes
without saying when comparing *anything* against TK)
(ex: my mom fights better than TK)
Another thing about Budokan was that it allowed you to maintain
different positions, if I'm remembering correctly. This may not have
influenced, but is certainly related to, the current trend of
interrupting moves. To get to certain strikes from the normal stance,
you had to go through a certain holdable position, and you would
normally return to the original stance via that position again after the
strike was finished. But you didn't have to, as Budokan let you stay in
that holdable position without returning all the way back to the basic
stance -- you could immediately attack again from that intermediate
position. Since a few attacks shared the same intermedate pose, you
could attack a variety of heights from one pose, all at discounted
speeds. So if the main character were faster, you could almost simulate
a Chun Li wind kick, or Sarah Illusion Kick. :)
It was also the first game with a "ki" meter, wasn't it?
What was the first game with dizzying?
And there are some other games that might be included:
Remember Gladiator? That Taito game that mixed weird offensive and
defensive strategies, had a special move (that barrier trick you did
with a glowing shield), had weapons (actually, was this before
Budokan?), as well as the concept of breaking weapons, shields, and
armor, and being able to pick up new versions of each. Positioning was
also very, very important in this game. (and remember trying to strip
Irene?)
(er, I saw a friend do this once...)
(my mom is hotter than Irene)
There was also a sequel to Karate Champ. I saw this in Ireland in '86,
so I don't know if it ever made it to America. I didn't play it and
couldn't tell you any differences in the fighting system, but the sequel
was much faster, had an intro (with a bunch of the girls that you fought
over in it, as well as a bunch of differently-dressed Karate Champs
stacked on top of one another), and the bonus screens were different as
well. Maybe it was a hacked version. (but there were some new graphics
in it, so...)
How did blocking work in Karate Champ, anyways? Was it random? I don't
remember any defensive joystick sequences (except maybe flipping away)
and those blocking motions seemed to come out pretty randomly...
And was Violence Fighter the game that was sort of like Legend of Kage
(with no jumping :), but with really large characters? I remember this
game where this awkward character walked through this forest of bamboo
reeds with his sword and occasionally these big, terribly animated
tigers would jump out at him and kill him with one touch. That game was
really awful. People actually managed to get by the first stage in this
one??
Pat
Chuck Cochems
A bit about Yie Ar Kung Fu..
Feedle COULD kill you. HOwever, all you had to do was kick each guy that
came out. It was the easiest perfect in the game.
The first screenful of baddies was called the Hot Fighting History.
After Feedle, the SECOND group of enemies was the Masters Fighting History.
I think Fan was before Sword, but I'm not sure.
Yes, Blues was an exact clone of you. Anything you could do, he could do.
The way to beat each character was to find the one hole it it's AI. SOrt
of like MK2 except they all have the same hole in MK2.
The big differences between Yie Ar Kung Fu and SF2
You can't block. Some enemies (Club and Tonfun) could block.
You have no special moves or weapons. (BIG diffenence!)
And, the multiple life system (although the owner can set it so you get
only one life.. EVER..)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
Sorry, no .signature.funny today. Maybe next time!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Julien Beasley
>I know this has nothing to do with SF2 but I gave it a try.
>Optimal angle b = pi/4 - a/2.
Geez! Right again! Is everybody here a physics major or what?
-Julien
--
Princeton's run by Wellesley, Wellesley's run by Yale,
Yale is run by Vassar, and Vassar's run by tail.
Harvard's run by stiff pricks, the kind you raise by hand,
But MIT's run by engineers, the finest in the land.
Eu-Ming Lee
>Geez! Right again! Is everybody here a physics major or what?
I dunno. I'm not. Why don't you try alt.games.mk and see how they
fare? :-P
Ming
John Nishinaga
j...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Julien Beasley) writes:
> In article <jnishinaC...@netcom.com> jnis...@netcom.com (John
> Nishinaga) writes:
>
>> Optimal angle b = pi/4 - a/2.
>
> Geez! Right again! Is everybody here a physics major or what?
or science related field.
Anyways, I've thought up of a good phy.. err SF2 problem:
o
|
|
|h
|
|
Ryu_______|
l
Ryu, under the guidance of his master, was taught how to throw angled
fireballs. In order to practice this skill, his feet were shackled to the
ground and he was ordered to throw fireballs at a fuzzy Dhalsim doll sitting
atop a pole. Strangely enough, every time he hit the doll it and the entire
pole would disappear then reappear in a totally random location.
Directions: Ryu's keen vision allows him to calculate distances to within a
millimeter. With the pole being a certain height _h_ and a certain length
away _l_, calculate the optimal angle _a_ as a function of _h_ and _l_ (f(h,
l) = a) so that he uses as little energy as possible (minimize the velocity
_v_). Be sure to assume that his fireballs have no "anti-gravitional force."
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
Philip John Stroffolino
>Feedle COULD kill you. HOwever, all you had to do was kick each guy that
>came out. It was the easiest perfect in the game.
Not always - 2nd Feedle could be a pain, as was first if you played
around. All the enemies got really tough if you played around,
actually. If you ever want to see Feedle go psycho, try defeating them
all with jumpkicks. The feedlings would occasionally block, too.
Something funny - Pole could be leap over as long as you like, every
time he charges. He'd turn into a raging maniac if you did this for a
few minutes. Star would begin tossing multiple stars.
Buchu had a punch similar to Honda's ducking fierce :)
>I think Fan was before Sword, but I'm not sure.
Chain->Club->Fan->Sword->Tonfa->Blues
>Yes, Blues was an exact clone of you. Anything you could do, he could do.
- he was graphically different, and had different (not to mention fewer)
moves. He just happened to be roughly your size and unarmed. Remember
his swooping kick? He had a much quicker roundhouse kick than Oolong,
too.
>The way to beat each character was to find the one hole it it's AI. SOrt
>of like MK2 except they all have the same hole in MK2.
In YAKF, more than half the enemies shared the weakness of hit & run
foot sweeps - boring, but effective.
But then they take away the holes!!! Argh!!! MK2 is so sickeningly
difficult against the computer on the newer versions, that playing the
CPU has lost all appeal to me.
Phil
Scott D Bradburn
>
>I'd say SF was most directly taken derived from Karate Champ. It was
>player vs. player, had two joysticks for each player, with which, you
>could do different moves. The game did not use an energy/life bar, it
>used a point system like martial arts contests. It even had bonus stages
>just like SFII. Overall, Karate Champ is still a fun game to play and is
>still reasonably challenging. I wouldn't mind new fighting games to use
>the two joystick system instead of one joystick and six buttons.
The most difficult thing I found in Karate Champ were the bonus stages.
It, like most early fighting games, had a universal attack, that virtually
always got you the points. In the early matches, there were any number
of simple tactics. Flip over and roundhouse worked very well for quite
a while. But, when nothing else worked, start the round pulling down
on the left stick, and when the computer gets within range, push up on the
right stick. Voila! A reverse punch to the groin. Plus, reverse punches
could score full points. I got to the second championship round with
this technique, and suddenly my opponent turned into Speedy Gonzalez and
won the match. Not my definition of challenging. Except those bonus
stages that I could never win.
Eu-Ming Lee
>The most difficult thing I found in Karate Champ were the bonus stages.
>It, like most early fighting games, had a universal attack, that virtually
>always got you the points. In the early matches, there were any number
>of simple tactics. Flip over and roundhouse worked very well for quite
>a while. But, when nothing else worked, start the round pulling down
>on the left stick, and when the computer gets within range, push up on the
>right stick. Voila! A reverse punch to the groin. Plus, reverse punches
>could score full points. I got to the second championship round with
>this technique, and suddenly my opponent turned into Speedy Gonzalez and
>won the match. Not my definition of challenging. Except those bonus
>stages that I could never win.
Nah, what was great about Karate Champ was that you could fake your
moves. Push on the joystick and hold it, you'll complete your move.
Hold and let go, you'll abort your move midway.
In the later opponents, you had to know how to fake and how to block
to get past the annoying Speedy Dans.
As for the bonus stages, the only one I had trouble with was the one
where the threw stuff at you from around the screen.
One of the bad things about the game was that if someone actually
challenged, he had to play the 2-player side and had to know how
to do all of the joystick motions in reverse.
Ming
Eu-Ming Lee
>Well, maybe not necessarily physics but I would bet 80% are majoring in a math
>or science related field.
Or at least have already been graduated. :)
>Directions: Ryu's keen vision allows him to calculate distances to within a
>millimeter. With the pole being a certain height _h_ and a certain length
>away _l_, calculate the optimal angle _a_ as a function of _h_ and _l_ (f(h,
>l) = a) so that he uses as little energy as possible (minimize the velocity
>_v_). Be sure to assume that his fireballs have no "anti-gravitional force."
>--
a = arctan(2h/l)
Assumptions:
l and h are measured from Ryu's hands.
Vy=0 when the fireball hits its target.
After that, it's just simple trig and 1st semester calculus with no
physics at all (and that's the way I like it!).
Ming
Su, Kai-Chang J
SF2 for SNES, probably no one would have purchased the SNES. Mortal
Kombat does cost twice as much as SF2, but then why do more people still
play MK1 and MK2 than SF2? I guess a lot of people are willing to
shell out $.50 to start and continue on MKs, but most people are not
that willing to shell out the same amount of money for SF2...Look at
a local Tilt. In Tilt, SuperSF2, MK1, and MK2 cost $.50 to start and
continue, but watch how many people are around the SuperSF2 versus
MK2 or even MK1!!!! MK2's crowd is far more larger than the crowd
around SuperSF2...So more people are willing to pay the high prices of
MK2...I know of at least three places in Houston where MK2 and SuperSF2
are $.25 to start and continue. If you go there, you will see the same
trend. A lot more people are willing to play MK2 then SF2 in the lower
price range too. I think a posts ago...someone mentioned that the
SuperSF2 was priced at 6 credits per coin(1 credit start/continue) while
MK2 was priced at 1 credit per coin (2 credits start/continue) and still
SuperSF2 was collect dust while MK2 was collecting cash.
Money gain is not the only way to judge the quality of a game.
Your example of the Lynx versus Gameboy was a good example. But the
reason why Lynx's sales were below the Gameboy's sales was because of
availabilty. Atari sued Nintendo (that is why Nintendo's stock
crashed), and Atari won the case. Atari found out that Nintendo made
an illegal agreement with major toy stores (such as Toy R' Us). Nin-
tendo ordered these toy retailers to not sell any of Atari's products
or else Nintendo would stop selling Nintendos to the toy stores.
This event was documented on 20/20. (or was it PrimeTime?).
Su, Kai-Chang J
Budokan was basically Karate Champ with a twist...It did not have anything
new or different except for a Ki meter and different stances.
>(ex: my mom fights better than TK)
>
>Another thing about Budokan was that it allowed you to maintain
>different positions, if I'm remembering correctly. This may not have
>influenced, but is certainly related to, the current trend of
>interrupting moves. To get to certain strikes from the normal stance,
>you had to go through a certain holdable position, and you would
>normally return to the original stance via that position again after the
>strike was finished. But you didn't have to, as Budokan let you stay in
>that holdable position without returning all the way back to the basic
>stance -- you could immediately attack again from that intermediate
>position. Since a few attacks shared the same intermedate pose, you
>could attack a variety of heights from one pose, all at discounted
>speeds. So if the main character were faster, you could almost simulate
>a Chun Li wind kick, or Sarah Illusion Kick. :)
>
>It was also the first game with a "ki" meter, wasn't it?
Yes, Budokan was the first game with a "ki" meter.
>What was the first game with dizzying?
The first game with dizzying to my knowledge was Street Fighter 2 but
Double Dragon comes very close for that call too.
>And there are some other games that might be included:
>
>Remember Gladiator? That Taito game that mixed weird offensive and
>defensive strategies, had a special move (that barrier trick you did
>with a glowing shield), had weapons (actually, was this before
>Budokan?), as well as the concept of breaking weapons, shields, and
>armor, and being able to pick up new versions of each. Positioning was
>also very, very important in this game. (and remember trying to strip
>Irene?)
Gladiator was the first "weapon" fighting-game. But no other fighting
game has adopted a similar format to Gladiator except maybe Fencing.
And it agrueable that Karateka did use the Gladiator method of attacks
High, Middle, and Low.
>(er, I saw a friend do this once...)
>
>(my mom is hotter than Irene)
>
>There was also a sequel to Karate Champ. I saw this in Ireland in '86,
>so I don't know if it ever made it to America. I didn't play it and
>couldn't tell you any differences in the fighting system, but the sequel
>was much faster, had an intro (with a bunch of the girls that you fought
>over in it, as well as a bunch of differently-dressed Karate Champs
>stacked on top of one another), and the bonus screens were different as
>well. Maybe it was a hacked version. (but there were some new graphics
>in it, so...)
Yes, there were several "hacked" sequels to Karate Champ.
>How did blocking work in Karate Champ, anyways? Was it random? I don't
>remember any defensive joystick sequences (except maybe flipping away)
>and those blocking motions seemed to come out pretty randomly...
Blocking in Karate Champ was pull back...but you have to pull back at
the right time. The first pull back blocking/first blocking period
occured in Shanghai. The only game in recent memory which mimicks
Shanghai was Golder Fighters for SNES.
>And was Violence Fighter the game that was sort of like Legend of Kage
>(with no jumping :), but with really large characters? I remember this
>game where this awkward character walked through this forest of bamboo
>reeds with his sword and occasionally these big, terribly animated
>tigers would jump out at him and kill him with one touch. That game was
>really awful. People actually managed to get by the first stage in this
>one??
Violence Fighter was nothing like Legend of Kage. Legend of Kage in my
mind was a prototype for Shinobi.
>
>Pat
Su, Kai-Chang J
>Frank Syma (fs...@ringer.cs.utsa.edu) wrote:
>> I always felt that SF1 was an improvement on Karate Champ.
>
>I had forgotten about that game! You're right... SF did borrow a >lot<
>from it, especially the funky scoring. Now i want to know which one came
>first, KC or YAKF.
Karate Champ came out in 1985; Kung Fu Master came out in 1984; Shanghai
came out in 1984; Yie Ar Kung Fu came out in 1982;
>> I belive you could even block in it. Karate Champ even had bonus
>> rounds, you had to flip over a bull or something like that.
>> There was also another figthing game that came out before SF2 and
>> I don't remember the name. There was a kick and punch buttons, I'm
>> unsure if there was a jump button. Anyways you could land light attacks
>> and strong attacks. I remember the the words Bagoom! or Kaboom! being
>> displayed on the screen, similar to old Batman movies. This also had
>> bonus rounds where you had to fight a tiger, and if you won your
>> life increased similar to AOF. If I remember correctly there were
>> boxes in the background that could be broken if you smashed your
>> opponent into them. Someone else has bound to have seen this game.
>
>I'm at a loss on this one... Anyone?
The name of the game you are referring to is called Violence Fighter which
came out in 1989.
Su, Kai-Chang J
ChunLi and Honda have moves which have a shadow kick effect in the new
Turbo SuperSF2...IMHO they should have named it Super Sorry SF2.
>---
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
>
>
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Oh, that. Well, everyone has that same effect, not just Chun and Honda.
Try playing the game before slaming it....(not that we can expect good
sense from you, Su)
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Warren L. Mohn
> challenged, he had to play the 2-player side and had to know how
> to do all of the joystick motions in reverse.
>
I can still remember the move for roundhouse (both josticks pushed away
from each other, horizontally), when that hit you got 1500 style points
and a full match point. Great feeling, getting that roundhouse to hit,
because you were so vulnerable if the person just ducked. I haven't had
that feeling in a fighting game since, except with some of the moves in
Virtua Fighter, which have the same sort of damage-inflicted/vulnerability
quotient as Karate Champ. Capcom would be wise to create that same
awesome hit in exchange for being incredibly vulnerable in SF3. It's not
particularly there in SF2 (with possible exception of fierce dragon
punches and sonic booms) but even then you can do jab versions. You
generally cannot get totally fucked up by missing a move (except with a
throw and people consider that cheap for some reason). I guess my point
is that Karate Champ was great precisely because if you got hit, it was
over, and it created a sense of urgency and tension. There were no
combinations.
Philip John Stroffolino
>Nah, what was great about Karate Champ was that you could fake your
>moves. Push on the joystick and hold it, you'll complete your move.
>Hold and let go, you'll abort your move midway.
Yah!!! This was slick - fake front kicks were really handy against both
humans and the CPU. Many people didn't realize that they'd have to
reblock a 2nd strike.
>In the later opponents, you had to know how to fake and how to block
>to get past the annoying Speedy Dans.
And hope you didn't get low kicked (unblockable) ^_^
>As for the bonus stages, the only one I had trouble with was the one
>where the threw stuff at you from around the screen.
Did anyone ever get past this? Did anything interesting happen?
>One of the bad things about the game was that if someone actually
>challenged, he had to play the 2-player side and had to know how
>to do all of the joystick motions in reverse.
They should have made the joystick functionality (left was always
movement) swap when you switched sides, IMHO.
Rhetoric the Persuader
> > 6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
>
> Hm. I'm stumped. maybe.....
> - prototype for Dhalsim? (long reach)
> - see also Power Instinct. There's an amazon babe who lashes out a whip
> much like Chain does.
>
He's the prototype for Earthquake in Samuri Shodown. Both are big,
although Earthquake easily out bulks Chain, and both throw that chain a
you.
--
Rhetoric the Persuader -- vhv0...@menudo.uh.edu or st...@jetson.uh.edu
"Now play the insolent, now plunder the god's privileges and give them to
creatures of a day. What ounce of you suffering can mortals spare you?"
--Prometheus Bound--
Brian Odom
> What is all of this nonsense about Buchu (not Bucho) being
>like E. Honda? The only resemblance was their extreme weight. Buchu
>wore pants, Honda wears a tablecloth. Buchu was bald. He wore shoes.
the resemblance is not only extreme girth, but also that head ram maneuver.
> I agree that Yie Ar Kung Fu was the best fighting game out
>before Street Fighter II. The enemies, as best I can recall, in or-
>der of appearance, were:
> 1. Buchu: Big fat wrestling dude, no weapon.
> 2. Star: Female shuriken-thrower, stars could be kicked/punched safely.
> 3. Nuncha: Man dressed in yellow who used Nunchaku.
> 4. Pole: Little dude dressed in green with bo-stick for weapon.
> 5. Feedle: Bonus round gang of short guys who emerged from sides of
> screen; they could not kill Oolong (the player).
> 6. Chain: Large opponent with extending chain weapon.
> 7. Club: Fat guy with club and shield.
> 8. Sword: Bearded and moustached sword wielder.
> 9. Fan: Female dressed in robes who threw razor fans all about.
> Her fans could be kicked/punched safely.
>10. Tonfun: Long-haired man in green with two tonfun weapons, one
> on each arm.
>11. Blues: Weaponless, shirtless martial arts expert.
wait, didn't fan come before sword? ah, i don't remember, but everything else
is correct. tonfun always kicked my ass. i saw this one girl, she was
awesome. she would flip it over and over (up to round 99) easily. against
fan, most people just jumped over them, she would kick them with different
moves without getting hit with ease. damn, i wouldn't dare try that.
was tonfun in green? maybe it was an off-green yellowish color.
> After the defeat of Blues, the game would begin again at Buchu,
>with a progressive increase in difficulty. The agenda of opponents
>was called the "Hot Fighting History."
yeah, i remember that. it only increased in difficulty up to a point.
> Besides this, what other graphics candy has Street Fighter
>snaked from Mortal Kombat? Name me one more item.
fatalities??? oooh, ooh, oooh, i should go try out some secret moves....
> BY THE WAY, FOR ALL OF YOU MORTAL KOMBAT ADVOCATES:
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Only a willfully oblivious person could fail to recognize
>that Mortal Kombat owes its very soul to Street Fighter. Let us
>not kid ourselves, nor anyone else, okay? Ed Boon himself (pro-
>grammer of MK I & II) has expressly stated that Mortal Kombat is
>Street Fighter progeny. Mortal Kombat is no kind of evolution in
>the chapter of fighting video games. It is a clone of the most
>successful (and deservedly so) product in video game history, no-
>thing more, easter eggs or no easter eggs. Mortal Kombat is a
>fine game, but it merely feeds off a legend of sorts.
yes, and mk2 has its distinct points, but face it, if sf2 didn't exist, we all
know that mk2 (or for that matter mk1) wouldn't even exist.
--
GCS?: -d+ p c(+++) u+ e++ s++/- n(---) h* f? !g w++@ t? r-- y+@
Brian Odom
>j...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Julien Beasley) writes:
>
>> In article <jnishinaC...@netcom.com> jnis...@netcom.com (John
>> Nishinaga) writes:
>>
>>> Optimal angle b = pi/4 - a/2.
>>
>> Geez! Right again! Is everybody here a physics major or what?
gosh, i didn't even understand the question....
>Well, maybe not necessarily physics but I would bet 80% are majoring in a math
>or science related field.
yeah, but that doesn't mean i am passing!
> o
> |
> |
> |h
> |
> |
>Ryu_______|
> l
>
>Ryu, under the guidance of his master, was taught how to throw angled
>fireballs. In order to practice this skill, his feet were shackled to the
>ground and he was ordered to throw fireballs at a fuzzy Dhalsim doll sitting
>atop a pole. Strangely enough, every time he hit the doll it and the entire
>pole would disappear then reappear in a totally random location.
>
>Directions: Ryu's keen vision allows him to calculate distances to within a
>millimeter. With the pole being a certain height _h_ and a certain length
>away _l_, calculate the optimal angle _a_ as a function of _h_ and _l_ (f(h,
>l) = a) so that he uses as little energy as possible (minimize the velocity
>_v_). Be sure to assume that his fireballs have no "anti-gravitional force."
maybe, i'm just dumb, but i'm not really understanding this.
can't i just simply calculate the length with the pythagorean theorem
(a^2 + b^2 = c^2) and then to get the angle simply take its tangent?
tangent = opposite / adjacent...
i figure this will produce an answer expressed in terms of l and h.
actually, i need to take the arctangent. (i got the sides, i need theta).
it can't be that easy, can it? you mention velocity, so i may be wrong.
oh well, here's my problem. it's a rather old and tired one, but still a good
ol' classic problem that will stump some people sometimes. i'll try to make
it street fighterish if you will...
vega, balrog, and sagat have been spending the day together beating up on
people in the streets. getting tired, they decide to get a hotel room at
the bossman estates. as they enter, m. bison, manager of the bossman estates,
tells them the price of a room. the room costs $30. splitting the cost of
the room, our 3 fighters each has $10 which they pay to m. bison. after
reviewing the room, m. bison later finds out that the room actually costs $25.
bison gives $5 to his busboy Ken, who thinks very shrewd. he figures that
since there are 3 people to give $5 to, they can't split it evenly. so, ken
decides to pocket $2 for himself and give vega, balrog, and sagat each $1 back
on the price of the room. in summary, vega, balrog, and sagat, each ended up
paying $9 for the room in all ($27) and the busboy has $2 in his pocket.
$27 + $2 = $29, but we started out with $30. where is the missing dollar?
--
brian "this problem is old" odom
Lucifer
Brian Odom <bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>vega, balrog, and sagat have been spending the day together beating up on
>people in the streets. getting tired, they decide to get a hotel room at
>the bossman estates. as they enter, m. bison, manager of the bossman estates,
>tells them the price of a room. the room costs $30. splitting the cost of
>the room, our 3 fighters each has $10 which they pay to m. bison. after
>reviewing the room, m. bison later finds out that the room actually costs $25.
>bison gives $5 to his busboy Ken, who thinks very shrewd. he figures that
>since there are 3 people to give $5 to, they can't split it evenly. so, ken
>decides to pocket $2 for himself and give vega, balrog, and sagat each $1 back
>on the price of the room. in summary, vega, balrog, and sagat, each ended up
>paying $9 for the room in all ($27) and the busboy has $2 in his pocket.
>$27 + $2 = $29, but we started out with $30. where is the missing dollar?
Actually, the math is done wrong. There is no dollar missing, because Bison
has $25, each of the bosses has $1, and Ken has $2. The dollar amount should
be subtracted, not added: $30 - $3 -$2 = $25 left with Bison. Or, if you
insist on adding, just take it the other direction: $25 with Bison +
$3 with bosses + $2 with Ken = $30. If you try to $27 + $2, you are dealing
with different halves of the equation, i.e., if the $2 is moved over to the
side of the $27, its sign would change, and give you the amount left with
Bison.
Lucifer
----------
There is no such thing as a first step, just a final plunge.
Lucifer, Fall, 1993
Lucifer
Chris D Koeberle <koeb...@utdallas.edu> wrote:
>Caroline Ann Seawright (kuno...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
>Well, actually...
>As far as i can recall, before sf, we had... (all i know are arcade and
>ibm, btw)
>Punch-Out, other boxing games, can't remember if there were really any
>with the same format as sf, though (viewed from the side, not the
>perspective of the assailant/player.
>The vs. mode in nintendo versions of games like Double Dragon. (though
>the style of dd is close to sf, compared to most of the stuff that was
>out there)
>Karateka, though i never did get to play that one... so i couldn't tell
>you how close it was. there were a few others like that. some were
>pretty close, some weren't. most had jumping, and such... the closest
>to sf from this genre, actually, was probably the kung-fu game whose name
>i cannot remember... it came out for the nintendo shortly after the nes
>came out... i remember pots dropping from the ceiling and snakes coming
>out, and evil bees flying around. but that's all i can remember of it.
>lastly... the game that probably gave the most to sf...
>Yie Ar Kung-Fu. Well, i assume it did. it sure >looks< like it did. it
>didn't have the special moves... but no game did, with the exception of
>the pathetic moves in double dragon. it >did< have the one-on-one format
>(no player vs. player mode, though), the monstrous jumps across the
>screen, a >serious< variety of opponents, the view from the side just
>like sf, and strangely enough, your first opponent looks a >lot< like e.
>honda. (and yes, i know e. honda didn't even make sf. but... well,
>he even had the sumo torpedo thing.)
>anyway... just some ramblings. i'd be interested to know what other
>people can contribute to the heritage of sf.
The game that you are thinking of is Kung Fu Master, I think. But do not
forget Karate Master, with the white and red uniformed guys who fought on
logs and such.
>
>--
> _ __/| Chris Koeberle
> \`O.o' koeb...@utdallas.edu
> =(_ _)= these stacks they keep me down... so i build some more
> U america's just a word but i use it... -- Fugazi
Lucifer
Milo Cooper
=>In article <8MAR1994...@jane.uh.edu>,
=>Su, Kai-Chang J <kjs0...@jane.uh.edu> wrote:
=>+
=>+I guess if Mortal Kombat owes it success to SF2 then MK must be a
=>+better product than SF2. MK the original made more money than SF2
=>+any version. It looks like MK2 will probably make more money than
=>+MK1. So then Mortal Kombat (the clone of SF2...^smiley face here^)
=>+is more successful (moneywise at least) than SF2.
=>
=> No offense, but this is a non-issue, as Mortal Kombat
=>cost players twice as much (fifty cents) to play on its release
=>than Street Fighter II's, in most locations. Besides, who can
=>deny that monetary gain is not, in itself, a valid barometer
=>for quality? Nintendo makes more money off Gameboy than Atari
=>does Lynx, yet the Lynx is the infinitely superior of the two.
=>However, if you wish to indulge the argument of capital gain, then
=>I shall declare that Nintendo made millions off the release of the
=>first Street Fighter II cartridge, for consumers were purchasing
=>Super Nintendos just to play the game (I myself am one of that
=>group).
=>
= I will admit that SF2 made SNES....SNES sucks hard! Without
=SF2 for SNES, probably no one would have purchased the SNES. Mortal
=Kombat does cost twice as much as SF2, but then why do more people still
=play MK1 and MK2 than SF2? I guess a lot of people are willing to
=shell out $.50 to start and continue on MKs, but most people are not
=that willing to shell out the same amount of money for SF2...
You want to know why this has happened? It's because
the home versions of Street Fighter II have been so well done
that legions of people simply play the game at home much more
often than they do the Mortal Kombat cart, which, as we all
know, does not measure up to the original coin-op. Capcom has
inadvertently shot its own foot by releasing the top-notch SF2
SNES and Sega software. One may actually have his/her fill of
SF2 in playing either of these renditions, (particularly the
SNES translation) so much so that trips to a local arcade are
often obviated. Not so with Mortal Kombat, whose home versions
don't meet the standard set by the home versions of SF2. Teen-
age Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournament Fighters is much better
than Mortal Kombat, home _or_ arcade, in large measure because
Konami passes the test established by Capcom's SNES and Sega
Street Fighter II conversions.
= Look at
=a local Tilt. In Tilt, SuperSF2, MK1, and MK2 cost $.50 to start and
=continue, but watch how many people are around the SuperSF2 versus
=MK2 or even MK1!!!! MK2's crowd is far more larger than the crowd
=around SuperSF2...So more people are willing to pay the high prices of
=MK2...I know of at least three places in Houston where MK2 and SuperSF2
=are $.25 to start and continue. If you go there, you will see the same
=trend. A lot more people are willing to play MK2 then SF2 in the lower
=price range too. I think a posts ago...someone mentioned that the
=SuperSF2 was priced at 6 credits per coin(1 credit start/continue) while
=MK2 was priced at 1 credit per coin (2 credits start/continue) and still
=SuperSF2 was collect dust while MK2 was collecting cash.
I still do not understand how this means that Mortal
Kombat is better than Street Fighter II. Yes, we all realize
that MK is currently more lucrative than SF2. What is your
point in all of this iteration? I ask because you then state:
= Money gain is not the only way to judge the quality of a game.
I contend that monetary gain is NO way to do this, per se.
=Your example of the Lynx versus Gameboy was a good example. But the
=reason why Lynx's sales were below the Gameboy's sales was because of
=availabilty. Atari sued Nintendo (that is why Nintendo's stock
=crashed), and Atari won the case. Atari found out that Nintendo made
=an illegal agreement with major toy stores (such as Toy R' Us). Nin-
=tendo ordered these toy retailers to not sell any of Atari's products
=or else Nintendo would stop selling Nintendos to the toy stores.
=This event was documented on 20/20. (or was it PrimeTime?).
Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
John Nishinaga
beforehand that Ryu's fireball doesn't have any "anti-gravitional force." In
other words, the path the fireball will take will be parabolic.
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
John Nishinaga
eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Eu-Ming Lee) +-(3)
> jnis...@netcom.com (John Nishinaga) writes:
>
>> Directions: Ryu's keen vision allows him to calculate distances to within a
>> millimeter. With the pole being a certain height _h_ and a certain length
>> away _l_, calculate the optimal angle _a_ as a function of _h_ and _l_
>> (f(h, l) = a) so that he uses as little energy as possible (minimize the
>> velocity _v_). Be sure to assume that his fireballs have no
>> "anti-gravitional force."
>
Nope. When h approaches 0, a approaches 0 and is not even close to the known
optimal constant of 45 degrees. The question was simply the rock throwing
problem re-worded. In other words, just think of a hill with the slope h/l
and try to maximize the distance. Anyways, the correct answer is:
o 1 -1 h
a = 45 + - tan -
2 l
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Milo Cooper <mdco...@crash.cts.com> wrote:
[good points by Milo deleted]
Listen up Su.
> Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
>ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
>is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
>you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
>mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
Milo has basically cut through all the muck and presented you a
question. Forget your dollar signs, your hardware, and your
martial arts: do you or do you not agree that SF2 is a superior
game, from the gamer's perspective.
If you don't, then it's quite obvious that we're not going to convince
you otherwise, and you certainly aren't going to change any of our minds.
As there's no way to resolve this confilct, kindly shut the hell up,
or at least redirect your poking to a more productive subject.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
(isn't 'Su' what you say to pigs when you want them to eat slop?)
Stilt Man
>SF2 for SNES, probably no one would have purchased the SNES. Mortal
>Kombat does cost twice as much as SF2, but then why do more people still
>play MK1 and MK2 than SF2? I guess a lot of people are willing to
>shell out $.50 to start and continue on MKs, but most people are not
>that willing to shell out the same amount of money for SF2...Look at
>a local Tilt. In Tilt, SuperSF2, MK1, and MK2 cost $.50 to start and
>continue, but watch how many people are around the SuperSF2 versus
>MK2 or even MK1!!!! MK2's crowd is far more larger than the crowd
>around SuperSF2...
You keep repeating this sort of thing, as if saying it more and more is
going to make it any less true that MK2's gameplay is lousy compared to
SF2 (any version). Here at OSU, it varies. Very rarely do you see a crowd
of people here at OSU waiting to play the game. More often, you see one
schmuck playing against the computer and the rest watching him play, not
really interested in playing against another person. On the other hand,
you still see people sticking quarters up to play against other people on
the SSF2 machine we have here on occasion. As far as people playing against
each other, it's easily in favor of SSF2. No one plays two-players on MK2,
to the point that large numbers of the SF2 folks who defected to MK2 are
already getting titanically bored.
Does MK2 make more money? Probably. But this is by virtue of the fact that
the MK2 machine eats quarters faster than the SF2 machine; people can play
for about twenty minutes on the SF2 machine, but only last three or four
minutes most of the time on the MK2 machine. Occasionally, you'll see someone
get to the bosses, and they'll last as much as ten to fifteen. It is hardly
because everyone is so hyped to play it that they line up in droves to challenge
whoever is on the machine. This is actually often the case at most arcades I
see both games at: people do indeed crowd around MK2 machines, but only to
watch. Very rarely do I see people lining up to play each other. On the
other hand, SF2 is older, so people don't gather around to watch any more.
I would suggest that you observe your crowds a little more closely, and take
notice of how many people are actually playing the game.
As far as raw money goes, yes MK2 probably inhales more quarters here. It
has to, because the game is shorter; you get less time for your money. As
far as which game has more people playing it for a greater length of time,
or which one has most people playing other people, SF2 still rules this
campus.
________________________________________________________________________
| The Stilt Man (ELF) fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Bison's speech for the masses: |
| "I don't want the world. I just want your half . . . " |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Get lost, you can't compare with my powers.
CIT HelpDesk
Actually, I kinda like Raiden's flying charge scream. It's unique like Ryu
and Ken's "ha-do-ken!"
>and people complain about ssf2's sound. sheesh. mk2 has the WORST sound
>there is. i will admit that i did like mk1's sound, but mk2 sucks bigtime.
What's so bad about SSF2's sound? I think it's a refreshing update to the
original SF2's sound and music. People may not like Guile's Big Bird voice,
but somehow, I'm starting to associate Guile with that voice now. I don't
know.
>> 7) The music is also horrible. There are just a few monotonous tunes, which
>> get played over and over again.
>i never even noticed it. maybe it's all the ee-ya-ee-ya, boogyboogyboogy
>(liu kang), ah-oo-ah-oo, knocknocknock that i hear.
Midway really hasn't concentrated on background music. Maybe that's a big
difference between American and Japanese video games.
>> 8) All the characters' moves are the same. They punch, jump, flip, kick,
>> get hurt, and even block the same! Their trips are the same, their
>> roundhouses are the same, only their special moves and fatalities are
>> not the same, but that's a different matter.
In case you haven't heard, some claim that there are subtle differences in
speed and effectiveness of the regular moves between characters (e.g. Kitana
has a faster sweep than Jax). Of course, these people are desperately trying
to legitimize the lack of variety inherient in MKII.
>>15) The game relies too much on secrets. Who cares about a Pong Game which
>> you may never see? Who cares about a secret character who is a Mileena
>> clone, Jade? The game substitutes secrets for substance.
>i most certainly don't, but some stupid kids who are brainwashed would.
>and i thought super mario bros had too many secrets when it first came out....
True, secrets are the cheap way to keep interest in a game. "Hmm, there's no
one playing MKII these days. Let's release version 22.whatever and introduce,
oh, say, animalities!" They'll get more quarters as people try to discover
the secret, then after everyone sees it, no one plays the machine again. So
they introduce a new version ...
Why is it that people fall for this ploy? It shows that they play games for
the discovery of secrets, the eye candy. Why don't they play for the
challenge?
>>20) The boss Kintaro is just a Goro clone. They both just stand around for
>> a while, then suddenly do a move. They both do tremendous damage for
>> their punches, and both just throw a single punch which knocks you across
>> the screen. Both of them jump in the air, stomp on you, then jump on you
>> and then off you. They both have a MEAN hold. They both are the second
>> to last boss. They both have a fireball.
M.Bison is the only "original" boss of its game, since he has special powers
unique only to himself. The other bosses I've seen on other fighting games
are just super-powerful clones of older or weaker characters. I sure can't
wait for SFIII so that Capcom can finally introduce a whole new set of bad
guys!
>actually, i don't since i don't want to be bothered with all the joystick
>hoopla memorization crap.
It gets really stupid when a new move just HAS to have its own joystick
combination. Does it make the move any more unique? No, all it does is
restrict the potential of the move by making the joystick moves more complex
than needed.
For example, Mileena and Liu Kang have similar projectiles, and
both can throw them in the air. Of course, Liu Kang can also throw his low,
but let's forget about that at the moment. Mileena's projectile can be done
by holding HP (I think) for a second, then releasing it, while Liu Kang's can
be done by 2F-HP. Now, Mileena's projectile is going to be less effective,
since you have to think ahead before throwing it, while Liu Kang's is much
more useful in reacting to the opponent, and all this is caused by the
needless complication of the controls.
In contrast, the projectiles thrown in SSFII have real differences, even
though the only control motions used are the fireball motion or the sonic boom
motion.
>i don't care what most people say, the graphics suck. as i have commented
>before in r.g.v.a, look at how stupid the characters looked from before.
>i play raiden, so i get annoyed looking at his jump kick seeing how short his
>little leg is, and how he looks like a crossing guard, etc.
Yeah, all the characters seems to have disproportionately big torso's and
short legs. I think all of the digitized pictures were retouched by paint
programs, and Midway probably screwed up a little.
I like Raiden's new uniform though; it sure looks better than the old peasant
garb he wore before. The red Raiden has got to go, since it looks like he
works for McDonald's in China or something.
>what is midway anyways? i'm confused. are they the same as bally and
>williams? help me, cuz i don't know. i usually see the 3 names mentioned
>as 1 quite often. are bally/williams/midway separate companies???
I believe Midway is a division of Williams. It seems these days that Williams
is doing more pinball, while Midway is doing the video games.
>the competition has flocked to mk2 because of the decline of sf2. today, i
was>playing hyper fighting and enjoying it more than super. i don't like super
>anymore, and i was the last one who really played it a lot. mk2 is probably
>the second best fighting game there is, so people want something new.
Here, not many people are playing MKII even. They've flocked to the Virtua
Fighter and Samurai Shodown machines. But at least SSFII still has its loyal
following, like me, and like the people reading this newsgroup.
>sf2 is a much better *game* than mk2 IMHO, but more people play mk2, which
>means there is more competition, which means more people will flock to it.
>sf2 has gotten quite old, and it hurts me to say and admit this.
Don't worry about admitting it: SFII is very old now. It was first released
about late winter of 1991, and that was a long time ago! Three years is a
pretty long life for a video game these days, even with all of the updates.
And hey, it's still earning money for the arcades! But the age shows
glaringly, which means SFIII should be coming out soon, or Capcom could go
down the same tubes that Atari did.
Even so, think about it: Street Fighter II has started not just a revival of
arcade games, but a whole REVOLUTION. It's even made its way into
popular culture, where people imitate throwing a fireball or sonic boom or
dragon punch. Something like this will not die down for quite a while, and if
SFIII is any good, this game is destined to be in the Video Game Hall of Fame
(if there is such a thing).
- Ninja
(desperately waiting for SFIII)
CIT HelpDesk
>From: i...@mame.mu.OZ.AU (Ian Donaldson)
>Subject: Re: Why MK2 sucks
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 05:04:18 GMT
>> But each character has the *same* high punches, sweeps, standing kicks,
>>Compare, say Ryu's sweep to Vega's.. Zangief's fierce punch to Cammy's..
>>there are inherent differences in the characters other than the special moves.
>>I know there are some differences in the MKII characters, but those are the
>>exceptions, rather than the rule.
>But they are not! (Okay, I'll give you standing punches). All the other moves
>look different and act diferent. Perhaps you are forgeting the pixel boundary
>system of MK2 can make apparently small differences big in actual combat. They
>all take different times, have different attack pattens, eg look at Sub-Zero's
>jump kick and Liu Kangs. Kangs is very short and flat, hard to hit with where
>SZ's is nice and wide and easy to hit. But if it is blocked, Kang is going
>to have more seperation to play with that old SZ ..
I think I've said this before in a former post, but I'll say it again. Midway
never made those subtle differences on purpose. These differences in the
characters of MKII are found by those who are desperately trying to find
variety in a game that lacks it. In other words, all the jump kicks, sweeps,
uppercuts, etc. may not be exactly the same for each character, but they are
similar enough to lack any real variety. Compare that to Street Fighter II
where Ryu's roundhouse sweep is definitely different from Guile's.
- Ninja
Su, Kai-Chang J
>In article <CMGoo...@crash.cts.com>,
>Milo Cooper <mdco...@crash.cts.com> wrote:
>
>[good points by Milo deleted]
>
>Listen up Su.
>
>> Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
>>ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
>>is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
>>you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
>>mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
>
>Milo has basically cut through all the muck and presented you a
>question. Forget your dollar signs, your hardware, and your
>martial arts: do you or do you not agree that SF2 is a superior
>game, from the gamer's perspective.
SF2 is not a Su-perior game from the gamer's perspective. Most people
in Japan won't agree that SF2 is a Su-perior game either...just look at
how fast SF2 fell off the ten most played games lists in Japan (about
3 months from the release of SF2:CE). IMO, MK2 is much better than
SF2...why should I try to convince you that it is? I already know it is
better and millions more believe it too.
>---
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
>(isn't 'Su' what you say to pigs when you want them to eat slop?)
'Su' can be a bad way to spell a name of an American Indian tribe.
'Su' is also the name of a ferious monster who according to Inca forelore
stalked the jungles in search of easy prey. The 'Su' jumped from tree
to tree. And it made deceptive noise and strange sounds only to lure
victims into a trap.
Believe I am not a 'Su' in any way you can describe me.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>>In article <CMGoo...@crash.cts.com>,
>>Milo Cooper <mdco...@crash.cts.com> wrote:
>>
>>[good points by Milo deleted]
>>
>>Listen up Su.
>>
>>> Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
>>>ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
>>>is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
>>>you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
>>>mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
>>
>>Milo has basically cut through all the muck and presented you a
>>question. Forget your dollar signs, your hardware, and your
>>martial arts: do you or do you not agree that SF2 is a superior
>>game, from the gamer's perspective.
>
>SF2 is not a Su-perior game from the gamer's perspective. Most people
>in Japan won't agree that SF2 is a Su-perior game either...just look at
>how fast SF2 fell off the ten most played games lists in Japan (about
>3 months from the release of SF2:CE). IMO, MK2 is much better than
>SF2...why should I try to convince you that it is? I already know it is
>better and millions more believe it too.
So does this mean you'll go away now? Creative editing on your part has
deleted the part in my post where I mention that this is the only rational
thing for you to do. (Which means we can all expect a response to this).
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Su, Kai-Chang J
You forgot to mention that there was an MK2 machine in the lobby, and Ken,
Sagat, and Vega shoved their money in to MK2...Bison soon followed suit
because he loves world domination...and thus no one has any money left, but
Ed Boon and company.
>
Su, Kai-Chang J
Does Ryu's fireball(energyball) have any mass? How come if gravity is
constant...SF2 players don't even have remotely similar hang-times. Chun Li
and Dhalsim jumps the same height and yet Chun Li falls like a rock while
Dhalsim floats like a helium balloom.
Julien Beasley
how I do at my old favorite, UC Berkeley, now that I am 8 months wiser
(and poorer). Also, can someone give me directions to Sunnyvale
Golfland, both by BART and by car? If possible, I'd like to meet some
of you (Wiessman, does your invitation still stand?). Can we arrange
something over E-Mail?
-Julien
--
Princeton's run by Wellesley, Wellesley's run by Yale,
Yale is run by Vassar, and Vassar's run by tail.
Harvard's run by stiff pricks, the kind you raise by hand,
But MIT's run by engineers, the finest in the land.
Su, Kai-Chang J
Tom, I am responsing to this..(huh?) What do you mean when you say "creative
editing on your part has deleted the part in my post where I mention that
this (this...what) is the only rational thing for you to do." I originally
came into this post area to read what is up with SF3...and much to my dismay
people here were talking about Turbo SuperSF2....A truely sorry game if I am
reading right. I started to post some facts, opinions, and trash when
people here were downing MK2 (the game of the year). So I am here to stay...
I will continue to post some more facts, more opinions, and more trash....if
you want to kill because you can't stand reading this then go ahead and
kill my posts (this is America it is your choice to read/listen to what you
want).
If people continue to post things like I don't belong here on this
board just like I have posted that certain characters don't belong on
SF2...then I will stop posting (**just kidding**). I will never stop posting
unless I have easy programs to do.
G. A. Golembiski
In a previous article, kjs0...@rosie.uh.edu (Su, Kai-Chang J) says:
>Tom, I am responsing to this..(huh?) What do you mean when you say "creative
>editing on your part has deleted the part in my post where I mention that
>this (this...what) is the only rational thing for you to do." I originally
>came into this post area to read what is up with SF3...and much to my dismay
>people here were talking about Turbo SuperSF2....A truely sorry game if I am
>reading right. I started to post some facts, opinions, and trash when
>people here were downing MK2 (the game of the year). So I am here to stay...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is still early in the year, I don't think MK2 will be Midway's
ace in the hole. If anything NBA Jams TE should be game of the year, ay
least NBA Jams is done right, shocking thing is it was made by Midway.
Well, actually it's probably a better game than MK2 because ed Boon didn't
throw his worthless 2 cents into it to screw it up, like he does with Mk
games. Boon just makes MK games becasue he knows the controversy will make
him rich.
--
G.A. Golembiski dr...@cleveland.freenet.edu (I think thats it)
Famous quote "OUCH!!!!" 9 out of 10 people everyday.
aka: Dr_Zero "Get numb. . ."
Milo Cooper
. >In article <CMGoo...@crash.cts.com>,
. >Milo Cooper <mdco...@crash.cts.com> wrote:
. >
. >> Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
. >>ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
. >>is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
. >>you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
. >>mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
. >
. >Milo has basically cut through all the muck and presented you a
. >question. Forget your dollar signs, your hardware, and your
. >martial arts: do you or do you not agree that SF2 is a superior
. >game, from the gamer's perspective.
.
. SF2 is not a Su-perior game from the gamer's perspective. Most people
. in Japan won't agree that SF2 is a Su-perior game either...just look at
. how fast SF2 fell off the ten most played games lists in Japan (about
. 3 months from the release of SF2:CE). IMO, MK2 is much better than
. SF2...why should I try to convince you that it is? I already know it is
. better and millions more believe it too.
No no no, Su, I ask that you refrain from invoking
popular prference and accumulated wealth. Mortal Kombat
existed before it made any money, it was extant before it
became a "hit." I want you to employ the exclusive attributes
of video games to support your conclusion -- forget adver-
tising, chart ratings, popularity, net gain, etc.; these are
ALL after-effects of the game's release. Factional support
does not legitimize anything. Lots of people in Germany sup-
ported the persecution of Jews, lots of people profited mone-
tarily from the Holocaust (munitions companies, crematory man-
ufacturers, etc.); did that make it cool? Gameboy is severely
more profitable than Lynx, remember?
Lay off your "MK makes more money and lots of people
play it." That submission is extremely tired and lame, not
to mention an illogical means of adducing superiority.
Science Applications International Corp
dizzy graphics if you got hit by a plant in the first bonus stage :)
Craig
--
------------------------
Bob Leck
le...@orvb.saic.com
Alex Werner
This game had remarkably good graphics and gameplay for its time, and the
variety of enemies you had to fight was extensive. There was a dragon,
a sorcerer, a snake-woman, and two axe-wielding brothers at once...
there was also a vs. mode, and a store where you could buy new weapons between
fights
.
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@venus.haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
"You don't say 2 or 1" "Why not?" "You just don't, ok?"
Su, Kai-Chang J
>.. >In article <CMGoo...@crash.cts.com>,
>.. >Milo Cooper <mdco...@crash.cts.com> wrote:
>.. >
>.. >> Well, Capcom is a Japanese company and Midway is Amer-
>.. >>ican, so the roles are reversed, here. Again I ask you, what
>.. >>is your point? Street Fighter II is the superior game. Do
>.. >>you or do you not agree? Never mind revenue garnered, never
>.. >>mind ephemeral popularity, SF2 is the gamer's game, period.
>.. >
>.. >Milo has basically cut through all the muck and presented you a
>.. >question. Forget your dollar signs, your hardware, and your
>.. >martial arts: do you or do you not agree that SF2 is a superior
>.. >game, from the gamer's perspective.
>..
>.. SF2 is not a Su-perior game from the gamer's perspective. Most people
>.. in Japan won't agree that SF2 is a Su-perior game either...just look at
>.. how fast SF2 fell off the ten most played games lists in Japan (about
>.. 3 months from the release of SF2:CE). IMO, MK2 is much better than
>.. SF2...why should I try to convince you that it is? I already know it is
>.. better and millions more believe it too.
>
> No no no, Su, I ask that you refrain from invoking
>popular prference and accumulated wealth. Mortal Kombat
>existed before it made any money, it was extant before it
>became a "hit." I want you to employ the exclusive attributes
>of video games to support your conclusion -- forget adver-
>tising, chart ratings, popularity, net gain, etc.; these are
>ALL after-effects of the game's release. Factional support
>does not legitimize anything. Lots of people in Germany sup-
>ported the persecution of Jews, lots of people profited mone-
>tarily from the Holocaust (munitions companies, crematory man-
>ufacturers, etc.); did that make it cool? Gameboy is severely
>more profitable than Lynx, remember?
> Lay off your "MK makes more money and lots of people
>play it." That submission is extremely tired and lame, not
>to mention an illogical means of adducing superiority.
>
> __m d c__
> |1 9 9 4| Milo D. Cooper (mdco...@crash.cts.com)
> ~~~~~~~~~
Ok I will refrain from using anything that has to do with
monetary accumulation or 'realsim' in the game...I will state what I like and
dislike about both games.
LIKES about both games
---------------------
1)Both games allow the player to have decisions on who to play or what
to look like (character selections).
2)Both games allow player versus player competition. (A trait many games
have now)
3)Both games have good graphics and decent sound.
4)Both games revolve around a fighting game theme.
LIKES about SF2
---------------
1)I like the fact that you can do certain combinations based on frame
interuptions. (Ryu's crouching Fierce then Fireball)
2)I like the AI for the computer. (AI in SF2 is not too cheap for players
to beat...and not too easy as in MK2)
LIKES about MK2
---------------
1)I like the way the special moves are designed. (Invisibility;morphing;etc.)
2)I like the fact the normal moves inflict damage even if blocked.
(Dodging or countermoves should be the only way to avoid getting hurt)
3)I like the balance. (The game is more centered around skill than
character match-ups)
4)I like block button. (I like blocking when I want to...not when the
computer decides I should block---ie. pulling back the stick)
5)I like Kintaro and Shao Khan. (Two or more powerful unplayable bosses
who use speed,skill, and strength to defeat your opponents. I like the
fact that they seem impossible to beat...afterall they are the "bosses")
6)I like the moves doing fixed amount of damage.
DISKLIKES about both games
--------------------------
1)I like the combination theme in both games; however, I don't like the fact
that every combination ends or begins with a special move. I think regular
moves should be able to chain together when done with in certain
patterns and done with the right timing...(kinda of like flowing) If
the regular moves are not done with correct timing then you can not chain
moves together. It would not encourage conformaty if regular moves could
be chain in such a way that A -> B or A -> C or A -> D or A -> A with
different timings for all four. It would encourage players to become
skillful in their button pushes and timing. I don't like incredible fast
moves which don't have to be timed to be chained...as with SF2 (short/jab)
and I don't like just pure button pushing...as with MK2 (punches).
My solution to this problem would be a quasi-blend of SF2 and MK2...
Fei Long's running punches mixed with Liu Kang's standing punches. Fei Long's
running punches have to be well timed for all to hit; however, they look
boring after a while (3 punches). Liu Kang's standing punches can alternate
between high and low with different animation which seem to blend together.
However, Liu Kang only has four different standing punches (right hand HP;
left hand HP; right hand LP; left hand LP). He should have more. My idea is
well timed punches (Fei Long) with alternating moves (Liu Kang) and a larger
variety of moves (including kicks) with different timing for each.
2)I don't like the movement in both games. I don't like the fact that I have
limited control on how I can move across the screen. In SF2 and MK2, you can
only walk forward/backward and jump up/forward/backward. SF2 does have a good
point of Vega's backflip but it is invincible. MK2 does have a good point of
Raiden's teleport and everyone else teleport;however, it is not enough.
My solution to this problem would be to use some elements from Neo*Geo games
where the character can rush forward and leap backwards, but also give the
player the ability to vary jumps by holding the stick in the flip position
longer...this will allow players to occasional jump at each other and give
the element of suprise....improve gameplay overall.
DISLIKES about SF2
------------------
1)I don't like the fact that every special seems to revolve around
fireball or uppercuts in design.
2)I don't like the fact that the game is unbalanced and is centered around
Ryu/Ken. The reason why Ryu/Ken and now Fei Long are the most played
characters in the game is because their combinations seem to flow well from
one move to the next.
3)I don't like dizziness at least the way it is presented in SF2. In SF2,
when a character becomes dizzy the game is pretty much over. All it takes
is another free-hitting combo to finish off the opponent.
4)I don't like the come back factor. All the moves should do consistant
damage.
DISLIKES about MK2
------------------
1)I don't like the limited number of moves you can perform. Even though
every single move in MK2 is very useable in a skilled unlike SF2, MK2 still
does not offer enough regular moves.
There you have my list of things I like and dislike about all the games.
IMHO MK2 is a better game than SF2. If you agree or disagree it is just
your opinion.
Su, Kai-Chang J
Yeah...NBA Jams TE might be game of the year. It seems that everything
Midway has done recently is incredible : Mortal Kombat, NBA Jams,
Mortal Kombat2 , and now NBA Jams TE... Midway is diffinately the industry's
leader in video games. Every one of Midway's games except NBA Jams TE has
made more money than all versions of SF2 put together! Mortal Kombat made
more money than all of the SF2s put together....and so did NBA Jams...and
so has Mortal Kombat 2...and probably NBA Jams TE will follow suit. Just
like the movie industry an American company is dominating the video game
industry. I am not flag waving...I am just pointing out a simliarity.
G. A. Golembiski
In a previous article, kjs0...@jane.uh.edu (Su, Kai-Chang J) says:
>Yeah...NBA Jams TE might be game of the year. It seems that everything
>Midway has done recently is incredible : Mortal Kombat, NBA Jams,
>Mortal Kombat2 , and now NBA Jams TE... Midway is diffinately the industry's
>leader in video games. Every one of Midway's games except NBA Jams TE has
>made more money than all versions of SF2 put together! Mortal Kombat made
>more money than all of the SF2s put together....and so did NBA Jams...and
>so has Mortal Kombat 2...and probably NBA Jams TE will follow suit. Just
>like the movie industry an American company is dominating the video game
>industry. I am not flag waving...I am just pointing out a simliarity.
WEll one major dissapointment with Midway is it's rampant chip
revisions, now tey are revising NBA jams Te! Bogus! Bullshit! If you
can't do it right the first time, don't do it okay? The NBA got bent out
of shape due to the MK character's being placed in the game, too fucking
baaaaad!!! I like em, it makes the game FUN! Fun is the key-word, fun is
what I want if I'm goint to shell out $1.50 a game!!! The NBA can piss off.
Albert So
MK2 is inferior to SF2 when it comes to the possibilities of
fighting techniques. Good God, how many times have you seen a MK2
player use one (two if you're lucky) techniques to defeat a _human_
opponent?!? SSF2 allows you (with the more balanced characters) to
beat opponents using two or three different techniques... SSF2 allows
several different styles of use for a character, generally speaking.
You could see a 'champion' MK2 player use essentially one technique
against pretty much all of his opponents...
Before I sound like I'm slamming MK2, I would like to say that the
visual and audio effects for that game are way better than SSF2...
Those two features are about the only things I'll give to MK2 though...
--
Albert So ``Doublethink' means the power of holding
Computer Science two contradictory beliefs in one's mind
U of British Columbia simultaneously, and accepting both of them.'
s...@gdss.commerce.ubc.ca - George Orwell
Andrew Fitta
[ lots of stuff other guys wrote deleted ]
: The game you are talking about with the words Bagoom! and Kabbomm! was
: a game called "Violence Fighter". MK did not follow in the footsteps
: of SF2...I will argue that MK has a format similar to two IBM games
: the first was called Bushido: the way of the warrior(not Budokan) and
: the second game was Karateka. MK2 is like a Karateka version of
: Yie Ar Kung-Fu. In Karateka you have HK,MK,LK and HP,MP,LP which is
: remarkably similar to Karateka's design. SF2 is more like a synthesis
: between Kung Fu Master and Yie Ar Kung-Fu. Anyways, here is my list
: of the forefathers of all "fighting" games to date and what made them
: different:
: 1)Yie Ar Kung Fu - is the father of all martial arts game. In YAKF, you
: have a hero (OLong) who fights in a side screen perspective
: against a HUGE variety of Kung-Fu experts. The first opponent
: OLong has to face resembles E.Honda a LOT. YAKF has a KO
: energy bar which is found in many fighting games today. YAKF
: had a huge variety of moves based on a button combination with
: any one of the eight directions on the stick.
: 2)Shanghai - is the first 'clone' fighting game. Shanghai resembled
: YAKF except that in Shanghai one could block and attacks had
: to be made on special strike zone which are highlighted.
: Shanghai is also the first fighting game which allowed one-
: to-one fights.
: 3)Kung Fu Master - is the first fighting that allowed the character to
: do repeated strikes. Depressing the button quickier produced
: some devastating results. Also depressing the punch button
: in rapid succession produced punches with alternating hands.
: The quick standing short kick and squatting short kicks of SF2
: resemble Kung-Fu Master's movements. Also the alternating punches
: in MK2 resemble the punches in Kung-Fu Master.
: 4)Karate Champ - is the first and only fighting game that did not use
: buttons. Instead, two joysticks moved in four different directions
: produced combinations and moves. Karate Champ is also the first
: game to have "distance" moves. If you are far away you will
: do something different than if you are in close range. Some people
: will remember Karate Champ as the first blocking game; however,
: as I mentioned before Shanghai was the first game the blocking
: by pulling back was possible.
: 5)Double Dragon - spawned the "3-D" perspective fighting game madness.
: Double Dragon clones include such hits as Final Fight, Streets
: of Rage, and many more...from this point on we will only discuss
: the side prespective fighting games.
: 6)Karateka - the first fighting game to have directional attack button
: format: High Kick, Middle Kick, Low Kick, High Punch, Middle
: Punch, Low Punch.
: 7)Street Fighter - the first and only fighting game to have pressure
: sensitive buttons which produced different damages when struck.
: SF is the first fighting game to have variable damage which was
: measured by the depression of the pressure sensitive buttons.
: SF is also the first fighting game which allowed the player to do
: secret moves which were executed by different combinations of
: joystick and buttons.
: 7 1/2) Ring King - the first fighting game (even though it is a boxing game
: and boxing is suppose to be a sport) to have a block button. Blocking
: is not performed by pulling away on the stick.
: 8)Pit Fighter - the first digitized fighting game. Also the first fighting
: to have "combinations."
: 9)Street Smart - this fighting game bears resemblance to good ol Double
: Dragon but it is worth mentioning because it was the first fighting
: game which had throws. Throwing (as it is done in all modern
: fighter) was preformed by pushing the punch button when up close
: to the opponent.
: 10)Street Fighter 2 - this is the first fighting game which allowed the
: players to select different characters who personified different
: "styles" and playing characteristics.
: 11)Mortal Kombat - the first fighting game that allowed the player to "kill"
: the opponent with Fatalities. Also the first fighting game which
: has a hidden character. MK has a karateka type button format.
: Other honorable mentions in terms of fatherhood to fighting games: Bushido
: the way of the warrior, Budokan, Fencing, Kicker, and believe or not...
: Time Killers (yes, this is a terrible game, but it is the first one to allow
: fighters to use weapons...besides Fencing)
: The most influencial fighting game in my honest opponent (IMHO) is Yie Ar
: Kung Fu. Every "good" fighting game resembles YAKF in some way. Bucho the
: first enemy in YAKF looks like E.Honda (Bucho even has a flying type attack).
: When you kick Bucho in the balls his eyes light up (like MK Johnny Cage's
: groining punch). YAKF had a fan girl who tossed fans like Kitana in MK2.
: YAKF even had a Nuchuka guy --- look at Fei Long's rice failing session when
: he wins. YAKF had lots of enemies with weapons - 1)chain, 2)throwing stars,
: 3)club and shield 4)fans 5)pole 6)sword 7)tonfa...every enemy had a unique
: style and feel.
: The next most influencial fighting game in terms of fatherhood is IMHO
: Street Fighter 2. Yes, SF2 is VERY influencial when it comes to design --
: look at every scrub Neo*Geo fighting game...remind you of SF2?
: The most popular fighting game to date is IMHO Mortal Kombat 2. No fighting
: game has been played more than MK2 has...just look at your local arcade.
: SF2:CE came close to MK1 in the most played department , but MK2 has just
: blow away the competition.
: MK2 has not really contributed to new developements in the fighting game
: genre except for its visual effects. Remember Johnny Cage's shadow kick??
: Turbo SuperSF2 has tried to duplicate the many visual effects of MK1&2....
: such as Johnny Cage's shadow kick---a quick look at Chun Li or Honda will
: confirm this. Other Stuff like invisibility came up in Budokan but things
: like morphing and such are visual effects which MK1 & 2 started at least
: in the fighting game department.
: Anyways, if you want to add to this list, or make comments, or just flame me
: please feel free to do so.
Two comments:
1. Don't forget, in the home version of Double Dragon, a mode B was added
that allowed you to choose a fighter based on a characters name. Each
fighter had a different style ( i.e. Jimmy,Billy had flying kicks, Linda
fought to use her whip during the fight, Abado had a mean punch) It came
out in `87,I believe.
2. I wish you would have added years to the history because these people
would notice that Street Fighter 1 came out in `86-`87, SF2 came out
`89-`90. But notice that MK 1 came out in `92, MK 2 in `93, and a third
version is being made. Bottom line, you SF fans can play your Turbo Hyper
Super Accelerated Champion Edition of SF2 while MK is on 3,4,5 and beyond.
"Just when you thought you had all the answers, I change the questions"
"Insane" Andrew
Su, Kai-Chang J
Su, Kai-Chang J (kjs0...@elroy.uh.edu) wrote:
[ lots of stuff other guys wrote deleted ]
: The game you are talking about with the words Bagoom! and Kabbomm! was
: a game called "Violence Fighter". MK did not follow in the footsteps
: of SF2...I will argue that MK has a format similar to two IBM games
: the first was called Bushido: the way of the warrior(not Budokan) and
: the second game was Karateka. MK2 is like a Karateka version of
: Yie Ar Kung-Fu. In Karateka you have HK,MK,LK and HP,MP,LP which is
: remarkably similar to Karateka's design. SF2 is more like a synthesis
: between Kung Fu Master and Yie Ar Kung-Fu. Anyways, here is my list
: of the forefathers of all "fighting" games to date and what made them
: different:
83:1)Yie Ar Kung Fu - is the father of all martial arts game. In YAKF, you
>: have a hero (OLong) who fights in a side screen perspective
>: against a HUGE variety of Kung-Fu experts. The first opponent
>: OLong has to face resembles E.Honda a LOT. YAKF has a KO
>: energy bar which is found in many fighting games today. YAKF
>: had a huge variety of moves based on a button combination with
>: any one of the eight directions on the stick.
84: 2)Shanghai - is the first 'clone' fighting game. Shanghai resembled
>: YAKF except that in Shanghai one could block and attacks had
>: to be made on special strike zone which are highlighted.
>: Shanghai is also the first fighting game which allowed one-
>: to-one fights.
84: 3)Kung Fu Master - is the first fighting that allowed the character to
>: do repeated strikes. Depressing the button quickier produced
>: some devastating results. Also depressing the punch button
>: in rapid succession produced punches with alternating hands.
>: The quick standing short kick and squatting short kicks of SF2
>: resemble Kung-Fu Master's movements. Also the alternating punches
>: in MK2 resemble the punches in Kung-Fu Master.
85: 4)Karate Champ - is the first and only fighting game that did not use
>: buttons. Instead, two joysticks moved in four different directions
>: produced combinations and moves. Karate Champ is also the first
>: game to have "distance" moves. If you are far away you will
>: do something different than if you are in close range. Some people
>: will remember Karate Champ as the first blocking game; however,
>: as I mentioned before Shanghai was the first game the blocking
>: by pulling back was possible.
86: 5)Double Dragon - spawned the "3-D" perspective fighting game madness.
>: Double Dragon clones include such hits as Final Fight, Streets
>: of Rage, and many more...from this point on we will only discuss
>: the side prespective fighting games.
87: 6)Karateka - the first fighting game to have directional attack button
>: format: High Kick, Middle Kick, Low Kick, High Punch, Middle
>: Punch, Low Punch.
88: 7)Street Fighter - the first and only fighting game to have pressure
>: sensitive buttons which produced different damages when struck.
>: SF is the first fighting game to have variable damage which was
>: measured by the depression of the pressure sensitive buttons.
>: SF is also the first fighting game which allowed the player to do
>: secret moves which were executed by different combinations of
>: joystick and buttons.
88: 7 1/2) Ring King - the first fighting game (even though it is a boxing game
>: and boxing is suppose to be a sport) to have a block button. Blocking
>: is not performed by pulling away on the stick.
89: 7 3/4) Double Dragon for NES - allowed player versus same player matches.
89: 8)Pit Fighter - the first digitized fighting game. Also the first fighting
>: to have "combinations."
90: 9)Street Smart - this fighting game bears resemblance to good ol Double
>: Dragon but it is worth mentioning because it was the first fighting
>: game which had throws. Throwing (as it is done in all modern
>: fighter) was preformed by pushing the punch button when up close
>: to the opponent.
91: 10)Street Fighter 2 - this is the first fighting game which allowed the
>: players to select different characters who personified different
>: "styles" and playing characteristics.
92: 11)Mortal Kombat - the first fighting game that allowed the player to "kill"
Jason A. Cirillo
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-Jason A. Cirillo-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
E*MAIL: j_ci...@oz.plymouth.edu \ |"A revolution is not a dinner |
...and if you're REALLY desperate... \ | party..." |
You can yell VERY VERY loudly \| -Mao Tse-Tung |
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