[Zero3] Priority attacks - a myth?
Kao Megura
<snip>
Aren't you sort of evading a major point here? If Ryu can consistently
jab DP someone out of an attack, and Sagat can't do the same with his TB,
yes, there is timing involved, but there's also the fact that the DP
itself is superior to the TB (just as an example here, Sagat players
should take no offense). With proper timing, you can get the hit using
any move, but anyone will notice that it's easier to connect with
Zangief's jumping splash or a DP than with other moves.
> You cannot simply bundle the above three properties into one and call it
> "priortiy". It's more complicated than that.
Okay, that's cool and all, but what about it is so complicated (aside from
your 3-part breakdown of a move)?
This is where I believe Capcom
> screws up in the game balance, making some moves too easy, too safe and too
> damaging, while leaving others no better than a taunt.
In other words, they give a move too much priority! ^_^
- Kao Megura -
e-me at : kmegura (at) yahoo (dot) com
stop by : http://i.am/kao (or) http://kao.home.ml.org
get this : I once saw a guy mash the buttons during a Super Taunt.
my hell : I watched "Regis & Kathie Lee" just to see the Pumpkins
play, and then they perform my favorite song at the very
end of the stupid show and it's cut off by commercials.
le...@my-dejanews.com
over others. I've always had a problem with the word "priority", especially
when it came to fighting games, viz. Street Fighter. Now with Alpha3 (Zero3)
out, a lot of people are complaining about the priority (too much or not
enough) of the attacks of particular characters.
I'm going to propose something. There's no such thing as priority! Priority
assumes that an attack has some sort of "value" assigned to it, and
therefore, it's going to beat any other attack with a lesser priority, or
smaller "value". Now you and I both know that this is untrue.
Priority oversimplifies the properties of an attack. You can't just say that
attack A is better than attack B. Sure, attack A might snuff out attack B 9/10
times, but this is not due to some magical priority attributed to attack A. It
is possible for attack B to beat attack A. An example..
Let's say attack A is Chun's jumping short, and attack B is Sagat's tiger
uppercut. Chun shamelessly keeps on jumping in on Sagat while sticking out
her short kick, and Sagat's (poor timed) Tiger Uppercut gets snuffed each and
every time. The Sagat player might bitch and whine about Chun's jumping short
having way too much "priority", and would probably think that it's impossible
to hit Chun out of it. But any hardened Sagat veterans out there will know
that you can Tiger Uppercut Chun out of her jumping short, it wasn't easy,
but it was possible, and damn did it feel good :) The thing I've always liked
about Sagat was that you just couldn't blindly throw out a Tiger Uppercut at
any jumper. You really had to train yourself to hit them *right*. You were
forced to do this because of the lack of invulnerability Sagat's Uppercut had
during the hit phase. Old school Sagats will know what I'm talking about.
All attacks have three basic properties.
1. Execution phase - the amount of time it takes for the attack to start up.
During this phase there is no hit detection. Some (special) attacks are
invulnerable, to some degree, to attack during this phase.
2. Hit phase - the amount of time an attack spends in hit detection. Some
(special) attacks are invulnerable, to some degree, during this phase.
3. Recovery phase - the amount of time spent recovering from a move. There is
no more hit detection.
You cannot simply bundle the above three properties into one and call it
"priortiy". It's more complicated than that. This is where I believe Capcom
screws up in the game balance, making some moves too easy, too safe and too
damaging, while leaving others no better than a taunt.
Going back to earlier example. A well timed deep Tiger Uppercut will hit Chun
out of her jumping short. I'm talking real deep here. You want Chun to be
right over you as Sagat is crouching down in the early (invulnerable) frames
from the Tiger Uppercut.
One conclusion that I've drawn after playing Alpha3 for a while now is that
your hits need to be much cleaner. You really have to be on your toes and
decide quickly what the best way is to, say, hit the incoming jumper. I found
this to be particularly true with the only two characters that I'm currently
playing - Sagat and Charlie (both A-ism).
The point of this whole post is to invite you to take a deeper look,
especially when it comes to analysing a character's attack. Zangief's jumping
splash keeps on hitting you?
Forget all about "priority" and ask yourself why.
All IMHO..
--
m ! k e
shut up and fight
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RD
>Forget all about "priority" and ask yourself why.
Points well taken, but do i really want to spend this much energy
describing a term when most people would know what i mean. I get the
most complaints from scrubs, and they wouldn't know priority if the
sword hit them over the head (bad MvC pun =) ), then it turns to
cheese. I haven't seen too many 'priority wars' lately so it's a
battle not worth fighting IMO.
Tony "Chun" Lim
le...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> For years now, people have been talking about the priority of certain attacks
> over others. I've always had a problem with the word "priority", especially
> when it came to fighting games, viz. Street Fighter. Now with Alpha3 (Zero3)
> out, a lot of people are complaining about the priority (too much or not
> enough) of the attacks of particular characters.
>
> I'm going to propose something. There's no such thing as priority! Priority
> assumes that an attack has some sort of "value" assigned to it, and
> therefore, it's going to beat any other attack with a lesser priority, or
> smaller "value". Now you and I both know that this is untrue.
>
> Priority oversimplifies the properties of an attack. You can't just say that
> attack A is better than attack B. Sure, attack A might snuff out attack B 9/10
> times, but this is not due to some magical priority attributed to attack A. It
> is possible for attack B to beat attack A.
OK, priority does not only pertain to jump in attacks and anti air
moves....it encompasses basic ground attacks as well. For the most part timing
can bea factor but let's assume that both players have extended certain attacks
at the exact, excat time. Certain normals will always beat out others.
For instance, A2 Ken hits s. strong and Guy hit s. forward at the same time,
Ken wins, no matter what, Ken wins thus his stroing has priority over Guy's
forward. Same goes to Rose's low strong over Chun's low foward and to Adon's low
strong to Sagat's low forward....if the attacks are extended simultaneously then
the Ken, Rose and Adon always win..... this means priority.
Now, in SF2 (WW), wouldn't you agree that a jab dragon punch has all priority
over and jump in? No? There was no attack that DP's ever lost to in that
version. Or even Guile's Flash Kick, if done at the exact same time at close
range, who has PRIORITY? If Yang starts his Tenshin Senkyuutai at point blank
range at the very same moment Alex performs a Hyper Bomb, Alex wins thus Alex has
priority. This is what has been meant by priority in discussion of the same
topic, which attack wins in given conditions. What you refer to friend is proper
countering and attack strategies, but not the non-existence of priority.
Tony "Chun" Lim
Milo D. Cooper
>
> For years now, people have been talking about the priority of certain attacks
> over others. I've always had a problem with the word "priority", especially
> when it came to fighting games, viz. Street Fighter. Now with Alpha3 (Zero3)
> out, a lot of people are complaining about the priority (too much or not
> enough) of the attacks of particular characters.
>
> I'm going to propose something. There's no such thing as priority! Priority
> assumes that an attack has some sort of "value" assigned to it, and
> therefore, it's going to beat any other attack with a lesser priority, or
> smaller "value". Now you and I both know that this is untrue.
>
We players who know WtF we're talking about use the word "priority"
loosely -- so just hold on to your shite. When we talk of priority,
we mean the frequency with which a character's attack and vulnerability
regions gives him/her the advantage over his/her opponents. For
example, the first couple of frames of a super constitutes a high-
priority attack: it has abnormally large attack regions and unusually
small, if not non-existent, vulnerability areas, relative to the actual
physical space occupied by the attacking character.
If you get the impression that everyone thinks that priority is a
function of actual numeric values, then you've been reading the wrong
posts (not hard to do, these days, since a.g.sf2 pretty much hit rock-
bottom many months ago).
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
Lion
Maybe he should learn how such a 2D game is programed.
In a nut shell, every sprites (frames of animation for each character)
is defined by boxes. There are vulnerability boxes, hitting boxes and
surely other ones. By setting the sizes of the boxes, it is easy to
raise/decrease the priority of an attack.
For a concrete example of the fact, just try to put your hand on the
japanese Ascii All About books for Zero2 and Zero2 dash. They draw the
boxes around the characters moves on the pictures. So it is easy to spot
why such move had more priority in one version and not in the other.
--
= Lion =
"A dog is a dog, except when he is facing you in a narrow alley. Then,
he is Mr. Dog."
hmmmm
Funk Soul Brother
[yadda yadda yadda]
> For a concrete example of the fact, just try to put your hand on the
> japanese Ascii All About books for Zero2 and Zero2 dash. They draw the
> boxes around the characters moves on the pictures. So it is easy to spot
> why such move had more priority in one version and not in the other.
Where and how might I lay my hands on one of these AAA books?
they sound fascinating!
>
>
> hmmmm
Uhuh :)
Funk Soul Brother
Check It Out NOW!
pnt
:assumes that an attack has some sort of "value" assigned to it, and
:therefore, it's going to beat any other attack with a lesser priority, or
:smaller "value". Now you and I both know that this is untrue.
Actually, this is entirely possible.
Suppose Rose's low strong has a priority of, say, 255, and Ryu's low short
may
have a priority of, say, 200. If Rose and Ryu were both to throw their
attack
with such timing that they were to collide at exactly the same time (that
is,
whoever had the greater startup time, in this case, Rose, would hit the
button
just a little earlier...), I can see a few lines of code that, in the case
that
both moves are in their hit-phases and their bounding boxes overlap, compare
the relative priorities of each move and determines who gets hit.
In fact, there may be code that describes trades: if the priority values of
the
moves are equal or close, both sides get hit.
In fact...I think it makes perfect sense. Even in the Vs series. Imagine
Gief's
jumping splash lands on my Chun's launcher. Both moves are extended. Both
are
in hit-phase. Neither move has invincibility. Both characters contact one
another. Why does Zangief always end up getting air comboed after that
exchange?
And why is it, if he does the knees, that Chun ends up right in Zangief's
loving
arms?
signed,pnt
WhoaMoses
sheesh
I can't believe you guys are actually arguing about if it exists or not. Here
is a simple example that proves it does, short and sweet:
Remember Chun-Li in Alpha 2? Her jumping short and jumping forward would snuff
out anybody else's jumping moves even if they were poorly timed, making her
queen of the air wars. And how about that crouching forward that was quicker
than the Flash and snuffed all normal ground moves? How can you say it didn't
have priority???
Finally, the most obvious example: Strider Hiryu in MvsC. ANY move that he has
involving his sword will go through anybody's else's providing they don't have
super armor (i.e. Cap's super charging star).
So there :oP
Lord BBH
NightWarriors/Darkstalkers' Revenge for Saturn? (doesn't matter if it's US or
not) There's a debug code which lets you (among other things) turn on "boxes"
for all the characters. These boxes change shapes when attacks are done. There
were three colors, and here's what I think each one did:
Blue - denoted an area in which the character could get hit by another attack
Red - denoted an area which was the "attacking box" of that attack
Green - a box that rarely moved, I think it has something to do with the
character sprites since the boxes can never overlap
If you did a move that had invincibilty, there would be red boxes for the
attack but no blue boxes since you couldn't get hit. When it comes to regular
attacks, I guess a move that has more "priority" is defined as an attack that
can hit the other person's "vulnerable" boxes without their attack hitting
yours. When two red boxes overlap with two blue boxes, a hit trade occurs.
Simple, no?
I guess in the case of stuff like Rose's low Strong, the attacking box extends
out much farther than its vulnerable area and stays out for most of the attack
(there were a lot of attacks in NW where the red box would only stick out for a
frame or two), which makes it hard for another attack to get through it and
stuff it entirely.
----
-Matt Hall
Fear the BBH CHARACTERS.
"I am an unskilled fighter." - Ryu, Sakura's SFA3 ending
John Hayes
hit boxes then just plunk in Nightwarriors for saturn, imput a couple of
cheats and you can display the boxes right then and there! This can
also be down in Guardian Heroes, another saturn game.
If your not implying that then, ??? :)
le...@my-dejanews.com
kme...@yahoo.com (Kao Megura) wrote:
> In article <6rfr1p$rrd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, le...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Aren't you sort of evading a major point here? If Ryu can consistently
> jab DP someone out of an attack, and Sagat can't do the same with his TB,
> yes, there is timing involved, but there's also the fact that the DP
> itself is superior to the TB (just as an example here, Sagat players
> should take no offense).
What major point was I avoiding? Yes, it's a fact that Ryu's DP is superior
to Sagat's TU. You can even say it has higher "priority", that's fine with me
as long as it is understoond "why" the DP is better than the TU. I know why,
and I'm not complaining, nor did I take any offense (I've always been a Sagat
player). The DP vs TU topic has been around ever since the days of SF:WW.
These moves have a history of changes but essentially, the DP would always
beat a TU. I can accept that. Understanding "why" the DP beats the TU is
important IMHO (and it's not very hard to understand). It's because the DP
has a longer invulnerablity phase than the TU, hence Sagat gets hit first.
I'm not stating anything new here. But understanding "why" move A beats move
B, especially when the case isn't as clear as the DP vs TU, is basically the
whole point, or rather, the drive behind my original post.
> With proper timing, you can get the hit using
> any move, but anyone will notice that it's easier to connect with
> Zangief's jumping splash or a DP than with other moves.
That's right.
>
> > You cannot simply bundle the above three properties into one and call it
> > "priortiy". It's more complicated than that.
>
> Okay, that's cool and all, but what about it is so complicated (aside from
> your 3-part breakdown of a move)?
Well, you can go deeper than the 3-part breakdown by considering other factors
such as which move was executed first, the relative positions of the two
characters, the effective hitting range of the attack, the vulnerable area of
your character during the attack. There's probably more still..
What I was trying to say was that it's more than case of "move A beats move
B". This statement will hold true 100% of the time when comparing certain
moves (e.g. a DP vs standing fierce), but I was considering those cases where
it wasn't so cut and dry, like, any jumping attack vs a ground attack.
> This is where I believe Capcom
> > screws up in the game balance, making some moves too easy, too safe and too
> > damaging, while leaving others no better than a taunt.
>
> In other words, they give a move too much priority! ^_^
heh, I still think there's more to it than that! :)
MAXIMOFF
Suppose Rose's low strong has a priority of, say, 255, and Ryu's low short
may
have a priority of, say, 200. If Rose and Ryu were both to throw their
attack
with such timing that they were to collide at exactly the same time (that
is,
whoever had the greater startup time, in this case, Rose, would hit the
button
just a little earlier...), I can see a few lines of code that, in the case
that
both moves are in their hit-phases and their bounding boxes overlap, compare
the relative priorities of each move and determines who gets hit.
Actually from my experience w/ SFibm, it seems a lot easier and would make a
lot more sense to use colission boxes.
Funk Soul Brother
> > Where and how might I lay my hands on one of these AAA books?
> > they sound fascinating!
> Hmmm...If your trying to imply that no pictures/game exists with these
> hit boxes then just plunk in Nightwarriors for saturn, imput a couple of
> cheats and you can display the boxes right then and there! This can
> also be down in Guardian Heroes, another saturn game.
I do not own a Saturn, so that could be difficult.
> If your not implying that then, ??? :)
I know I'm sarcastic and can be mistakenly taken for sarcastic
when I am not. But online? You're really searching for sarcastic
replies here! :)
Oi Vill Treye Too Xplain Vat Oi Meen:
I would like to see these boxes and drawings, I have never
seen or heard of them before. Could you provide me with some
further information regarding this matter.
(There, that sounds sarcastic when I read it - hopefully
you'll take it seriously!)
Spin The Record,
Fun Soul Brother
James Margaris
Darkstalkers debug mode. Each attack has areas where it hits and areas
where it is vulnerable. Priority is not a number, just a concept that is
a logical consequence of how the boxes line up and interact. End of
story.
James M
pnt
And who knows. There may STILL be a priority value attached
to those boxes. ^^
James Margaris wrote in message <35DD818A...@cornell.edu>...
:Enough of this idiocy. SF uses collision boxes. You can see them in the
Tavish
Heroes.
They determine what areas of a sprite are 'solid' (i.e. can be struck, as
the sprite itself is not a programmed construct, only a representation),
and what areas will hit another sprite if the aforementioned 'boxes'
overlap.
Really, what the sprite looks like can have nothing to do with how the
'boxes' are arranged - invincible frames simply have no solid boxes, and
'boxes' can extend beyond the sprite (as in Shin Akuma's Dragon Punch,
which hits an opponents from much farther away than the actual sprite
extends). Usually, a green box determines a solid (strikable) area, and red
boxes indicate areas that will damage another sprite if their 'boxes'
overlap.
So priority is an actual, programmed entity. ^_^
---Tavish---
Webmaster at:
Street Fighter Alpha 3 Online http://members.tripod.com/~SFonline
Sasquatch's Village http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7736
Jin's Gallery of Excess http://members.tripod.com/~jinexcess
Vincent Lo
about the state of this newsgroup]
>Maybe he should learn how such a 2D game is programed.
>In a nut shell, every sprites (frames of animation for each character)
>is defined by boxes. There are vulnerability boxes, hitting boxes and
>surely other ones. By setting the sizes of the boxes, it is easy to
>raise/decrease the priority of an attack.
>japanese Ascii All About books for Zero2 and Zero2 dash. They draw the
>boxes around the characters moves on the pictures. So it is easy to spot
>why such move had more priority in one version and not in the other.
>
>= Lion =
The boxes even vary in size for the _same_ frame drawn. For example,
Zangief in classic has the same frame for crouching short, forward and
roundhouse and yet the hit boxes get progressively bigger.
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Vincent T. Lo Hardware Verification Group
v...@cs.stanford.edu Stanford University
John Hayes
then go to saturn
tada
lgu...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <199808201923...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> lor...@aol.com (Lord BBH) wrote:
> > This thread has been talked about in the past... anyway, anyone have
> > NightWarriors/Darkstalkers' Revenge for Saturn? (doesn't matter if it's US or
> > not) There's a debug code which lets you (among other things) turn on "boxes"
> > for all the characters. These boxes change shapes when attacks are done.
> [snip]
> > -Matt Hall
> > Fear the BBH CHARACTERS.
> >
> > "I am an unskilled fighter." - Ryu, Sakura's SFA3 ending
> >
>
> I have Nightwarriors for the Saturn! But I never heard of this code before,hmm
> sounds interesting...How do you get to the Debug mode? Can you please post
> the code?
>
> Lguerr