MVC2 Tiers
Will Beckley
MvC2. If you can, please respond with your top 14 and bottom 14 characters.
If you want to, put them in some order, and if you're feeling extremely
gung-ho, rank all 56.
Thanks,
Will
ParanoiaDirtyMix!
Let me try ranking these boys/gals/animals, I might be biased on middle
tiers...either they don't have good tourney performances or have not been
exposed, and keep in mind that mvc2 is a team game, so some team
combinations can just be overpowered
Tier 1
------
Doom
Spiral
Sentinel
Dhalsim
Cable
Storm
Strider
Blackheart
Tier 2
------
Cyclops
Cammy
Iceman
Captain Commando
BBHood
Ironman
Power-up Juggeranut
Silver Samurai
Tier 3
------
Omega Red
Magneto
Bison
Ken
Tron
Psylocke
Felicia
Colossus
Tier 4
------
Captain America
Anakaris
Ruby Heart
Gambit
Ryu
Rogue
Charlie
Hulk
Tier 5
------
Guile
Jill
Akuma
Hayato
Thanos
War Machine
Sakura
Venom
Tier 6
------
Morrigan
Amingo
Sabretooth
Bonerine
Megaman
Wolverine
Sonson
Jin
Tier 7
------
Shuma
Spiderman
Marrow
Chun Li
Kobun
Zangief
Dan
Roll
For first 2 tiers and last 2 tiers I'm sure enough...
Characters that I might be biased:
Megaman - Japan has a good ranking on him, but he must have something else
beside rockball trap
Ruby Heart - I know she can trap, but not sure if those Japanse long ass
combos matter or not
Silver Samurai - Good chipping, good meter building, but he uses lots of
meters too....Japan gives him a good ranking
Jin - I like Beta assist but not sure his potential on field, i can only
play pixie Jin
Thanos - Still not sure how to play him, but I see him have some potential
tortoise
>I'm curious as to what people perceive as the top tier and
bottom tier of
>MvC2. If you can, please respond with your top 14 and bottom 14
characters.
>If you want to, put them in some order, and if you're feeling
extremely
>gung-ho, rank all 56.
You just missed a 200 post long thread on this which is just now
petering out. Check it out in Deja for all the rankings talk you
could ever
want.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
JackTheFob
On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, sol t kim wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> ParanoiaDirtyMix! <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Will Beckley wrote:
> >
> >Tier 1
> >------
> >
> >Doom
> >Spiral
> >Sentinel
> >Dhalsim
> >Cable
> >Storm
> >Strider
> >Blackheart
>
> Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
Play like a Japanse and runaway forever
> Sentinel is below Cable
Sentinel loses to cable but it doesn't mean Sentinel is worse than
Cable...Just like in ST Blanka beats Guile, doesn't make Blanka better
than Guile in general
> >Tier 2
> >------
> >
> >Cyclops
> >Cammy
> >Iceman
> >Captain Commando
> >BBHood
> >Ironman
> >Power-up Juggeranut
> >Silver Samurai
>
> Power up Jug should at least be at the top of this list.
Power up Jug still isn't that versatile enough
> >Tier 3
> >------
> >
> >Omega Red
> >Magneto
> >Bison
> >Ken
> >Tron
> >Psylocke
> >Felicia
> >Colossus
>
> Ken should not be above Ryu...Ryu at least can hurt helpers.
Ken can Shinryuken, and Ken has Hurricane, Ryu can hurt helpers, but that
damage is shitty
>
> >Tier 4
> >------
> >
> >Captain America
> >Anakaris
> >Ruby Heart
> >Gambit
> >Ryu
> >Rogue
> >Charlie
> >Hulk
> >
> >Tier 5
> >------
> >
> >Guile
> >Jill
> >Akuma
> >Hayato
> >Thanos
> >War Machine
> >Sakura
> >Venom
>
> Guile/Akuma belongs somewhere above this
Guile cries horribly against top characters, Akuma's 135% damage and
horrible Mesatsu Gou Hadou makes him overrated
You can AHVB in reaction
> >Tier 6
> >------
> >
> >Morrigan
> >Amingo
> >Sabretooth
> >Bonerine
> >Megaman
> >Wolverine
> >Sonson
> >Jin
> >
> >Tier 7
> >------
> >
> >Shuma
> >Spiderman
> >Marrow
> >Chun Li
> >Kobun
> >Zangief
> >Dan
> >Roll
>
> Spiderman does not belong here he's at least upper middle.
Trust me that Spiderman is horrible like hell
sol t kim
ParanoiaDirtyMix! <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Will Beckley wrote:
>
>Tier 1
>------
>
>Doom
>Spiral
>Sentinel
>Dhalsim
>Cable
>Storm
>Strider
>Blackheart
Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
Sentinel is below Cable
>Tier 2
>------
>
>Cyclops
>Cammy
>Iceman
>Captain Commando
>BBHood
>Ironman
>Power-up Juggeranut
>Silver Samurai
Power up Jug should at least be at the top of this list.
>Tier 3
>------
>
>Omega Red
>Magneto
>Bison
>Ken
>Tron
>Psylocke
>Felicia
>Colossus
Ken should not be above Ryu...Ryu at least can hurt helpers.
>Tier 4
>------
>
>Captain America
>Anakaris
>Ruby Heart
>Gambit
>Ryu
>Rogue
>Charlie
>Hulk
>
>Tier 5
>------
>
>Guile
>Jill
>Akuma
>Hayato
>Thanos
>War Machine
>Sakura
>Venom
Guile/Akuma belongs somewhere above this
>Tier 6
>------
>
>Morrigan
>Amingo
>Sabretooth
>Bonerine
>Megaman
>Wolverine
>Sonson
>Jin
>
>Tier 7
>------
>
>Shuma
>Spiderman
>Marrow
>Chun Li
>Kobun
>Zangief
>Dan
>Roll
Spiderman does not belong here he's at least upper middle.
>For first 2 tiers and last 2 tiers I'm sure enough...
>
>Thanos - Still not sure how to play him, but I see him have some potential
Like a pixie, AFAIK
--
Arturo Sanchez
Jack, I only took a quick glance at your rankings, so I'm not going to
comment on that for the most part..since they're somewhat right...but why
is Magneto is Tier 3? He should be in the top of tier 2, if not Tier 1
even.
For the most part tho, your rankings are good - however, I think there
will be a lot of debate over the middle tier, since there are so many
chars. However, it's a start...
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
sol t kim <sol...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>ParanoiaDirtyMix! <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Will Beckley wrote:
>>Tier 1
>>Spiral
>>Sentinel
>>Dhalsim
>>Cable
>>Storm
>>Strider
>>Blackheart
>
>Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
No way in hell Dhalsim dominates a match like Cable, Doom, Sentinel.
Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
>>Tier 2
>>Cyclops
>>Cammy
>>Iceman
>>Captain Commando
>>BBHood
>>Ironman
>>Power-up Juggeranut
>>Silver Samurai
>Power up Jug should at least be at the top of this list.
BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
>>Tier 3
>>Omega Red
>>Magneto
>>Bison
>>Ken
>>Tron
>>Psylocke
>>Felicia
>>Colossus
>Ken should not be above Ryu...Ryu at least can hurt helpers.
Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does more damage
and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good too.
>>Tier 4
>>Captain America
>>Anakaris
>>Ruby Heart
>>Gambit
>>Ryu
>>Rogue
>>Charlie
>>Hulk
Guile is better than Charlie, and Anakaris is better than these guys.
>>Tier 5
>>Guile
>>Tier 6
>>Tier 7
Sonson is bottom tier. No damage.
>>Thanos - Still not sure how to play him, but I see him have some potential
>Like a pixie, AFAIK
Thanos? He's neither small nor particularly great at combos except for
his infinite and supers. At least he can super out of a lot of things.
--
Shaun P. McIsaac
(508) 761 - 4722 People are more violently opposed to fur than
leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
JackTheFob
On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
> In article <1IKh5.126$x3.2951@uchinews>,
> sol t kim <sol...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> >ParanoiaDirtyMix! <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >>On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Will Beckley wrote:
> >>Tier 1
> >>Doom
> >>Spiral
> >>Sentinel
> >>Dhalsim
> >>Cable
> >>Storm
> >>Strider
> >>Blackheart
> >
> >Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
>
> No way in hell Dhalsim dominates a match like Cable, Doom, Sentinel.
> Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
Sim is not born to kill helper or do nasty damage...he does have
big-damage combos which is HARD....the reason why he dominates is because
of his runaway skill, and he teleports....which automatically rocks cable
> >>Tier 2
> >>Cyclops
> >>Cammy
> >>Iceman
> >>Captain Commando
> >>BBHood
> >>Ironman
> >>Power-up Juggeranut
> >>Silver Samurai
> >Power up Jug should at least be at the top of this list.
>
> BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
> you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
BBH does runaway work and triple super work
IM should be a flying whore, just watch out blackheart and commando
So you say Spiral is better than SS, which is true, which is why SS ranks
lower than Spiral. Spiral chips on field and SS chips as a helper
> >>Tier 3
> >>Omega Red
> >>Magneto
> >>Bison
> >>Ken
> >>Tron
> >>Psylocke
> >>Felicia
> >>Colossus
> >Ken should not be above Ryu...Ryu at least can hurt helpers.
>
> Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does more damage
> and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good too.
>
> >>Tier 4
> >>Captain America
> >>Anakaris
> >>Ruby Heart
> >>Gambit
> >>Ryu
> >>Rogue
> >>Charlie
> >>Hulk
>
> Guile is better than Charlie, and Anakaris is better than these guys.
Guile is better than charlie in low-level comp, Charlie can be a cross-up
whore.
Well I said I am biased coz i haven't mastered all 56 yet....so there are
something i don't know about Anakaris
Lupid
and Cyc..some other stuff..no one cares though. Megaman stops
Doom/BH and lots of other shit just because you can't call a
helper without first stopping his megabusters, and that's not as
easy as you'd think against a good MM. The busters do like 15%
damage now too..it's nasty. Rockball trap is ass. He goes in AT
LEAST 3rd or lower second. Bonerine is 4th at least also.
Spiderman in no way deserves to be 7th tier. If I land a jab in
my endless chaining you're losing 50% to a max. spider
SOMEWHERE. You've just never seen him used effectively. He still
can't deal with keepaway, but no one else in 3rd tier can and
thats probably where I'd put him. No lower than 4th though.
Everything else is close enough.
John Syers
> No one believes that Jill owns all pixies. Oh well. I'd swap BH
> and Cyc..some other stuff..no one cares though. Megaman stops
> Doom/BH and lots of other shit just because you can't call a
> helper without first stopping his megabusters, and that's not as
> easy as you'd think against a good MM. The busters do like 15%
> damage now too..it's nasty.
What is up with his mega buster assist stopping a hyper charging star?
Seems like there was something else that stopped my hyper charging star
and for awhile I thought they made it just totally weak, but it still
goes through some stuff. I used to love charing through a legion or
standing fast through a proton cannon (although the PC is a little
longer IIRC). Is there anything else the charging star can't beat
anymore?
js
3
Chocobo
> Jack, I only took a quick glance at your rankings, so I'm not going to
> comment on that for the most part..since they're somewhat right...but why
> is Magneto is Tier 3? He should be in the top of tier 2, if not Tier 1
> even.
Why do you believe that? I hope you're not counting his ability to do 100% in
one (escapable) air combo. Without that, he's simply above average.
tortoise
>What is up with his mega buster assist stopping a hyper
charging star?
Are you sure you had your shield
during that HCS? If Cap is without
his shield then charging star will
not negate projectiles and HCS
will not negate beams/projectiles/supers.
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
JackTheFob <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>> In article <1IKh5.126$x3.2951@uchinews>,
>> sol t kim <sol...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> >>Tier 1
>> >>Doom
>> >>Spiral
>> >>Sentinel
>> >>Dhalsim
>> >>Cable
>> >>Storm
>> >>Strider
>> >>Blackheart
>> >
>> >Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
>> No way in hell Dhalsim dominates a match like Cable, Doom, Sentinel.
>> Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
>Sim is not born to kill helper or do nasty damage...he does have
>big-damage combos which is HARD....the reason why he dominates is because
>of his runaway skill, and he teleports....which automatically rocks cable
Bison teleports too, are you going to tell me he beats Cable?
Dhalsim's runaway is not any good. What are you going to run away *with*?
He has no way to chip safely and no big combo off his long attacks.
>> BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
>> you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
>
>BBH does runaway work and triple super work.
Her TT is overrated and her ability to keep away with missiles is
about as good as megaman's fierce.
>IM should be a flying whore, just watch out blackheart and commando.
..and Ken, and Cammy, and a lot of others. I play IM. He's a fun
charcters. While raining down garbage is his best tech, he's not able to
do it like Doom and be so controlling with it. SB is slow enough to let
them break away from any trapping you might have been thinking of; UB is
good but a slow enough to allow a reaction from a good player. This is a
serious problem as you can't get into a situation where you're trading a
few hits for a few blocked beams - you'll lmost always lose.
>So you say Spiral is better than SS, which is true, which is why SS ranks
>lower than Spiral. Spiral chips on field and SS chips as a helper
Samurai chips ok as help but IMO is not great (Spiral's alpha is about as
good). I just don't see him as better than Magneto, for instance, or on
par with Juggernaut.
>> >>Tier 3
>> >>Tier 4
>> Guile is better than Charlie, and Anakaris is better than these guys.
>
>Guile is better than charlie in low-level comp, Charlie can be a cross-up
>whore.
Why is Charlie landing crossups vs anyone but low level comp?
Guile wins on better supers and damage, a better air flashkick, and his
air throw which will occasionally catch someone sleeping for a single
extra pop-up w/o damage reduction.
>Well I said I am biased coz i haven't mastered all 56 yet....so there are
>something i don't know about Anakaris
KapKom would know better than I, but he does have ground chains->super
that do over 1/2 life and the coffins which are pretty good.
JackTheFob
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> JackTheFob <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
> >> In article <1IKh5.126$x3.2951@uchinews>,
> >> sol t kim <sol...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >> >>Tier 1
> >> >>Doom
> >> >>Spiral
> >> >>Sentinel
> >> >>Dhalsim
> >> >>Cable
> >> >>Storm
> >> >>Strider
> >> >>Blackheart
> >> >
> >> >Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
> >> No way in hell Dhalsim dominates a match like Cable, Doom, Sentinel.
> >> Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
> >Sim is not born to kill helper or do nasty damage...he does have
> >big-damage combos which is HARD....the reason why he dominates is because
> >of his runaway skill, and he teleports....which automatically rocks cable
>
> Bison teleports too, are you going to tell me he beats Cable?
> Dhalsim's runaway is not any good. What are you going to run away *with*?
> He has no way to chip safely and no big combo off his long attacks.
Bison's teleport, as lame as psylocke's, is WEAK....different story from
sim's
Sim has no chip pontential but doom does.....so include floating on your
runaway loop, call doom during floating, then air dash or teleport...when
time's running out even experts should get some nervous coz they are still
human beings...then just doom more
> >> BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
> >> you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
> >
> >BBH does runaway work and triple super work.
>
> Her TT is overrated and her ability to keep away with missiles is
> about as good as megaman's fierce.
>
> >IM should be a flying whore, just watch out blackheart and commando.
>
> ..and Ken, and Cammy, and a lot of others. I play IM. He's a fun
> charcters. While raining down garbage is his best tech, he's not able to
> do it like Doom and be so controlling with it. SB is slow enough to let
> them break away from any trapping you might have been thinking of; UB is
> good but a slow enough to allow a reaction from a good player. This is a
> serious problem as you can't get into a situation where you're trading a
> few hits for a few blocked beams - you'll lmost always lose.
>
> >So you say Spiral is better than SS, which is true, which is why SS ranks
> >lower than Spiral. Spiral chips on field and SS chips as a helper
>
> Samurai chips ok as help but IMO is not great (Spiral's alpha is about as
> good). I just don't see him as better than Magneto, for instance, or on
> par with Juggernaut.
Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage and
headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
If Japan says SS is good, SS is good....what's the last time Japan made a
lame ranking?
> >> >>Tier 3
> >> >>Tier 4
> >> Guile is better than Charlie, and Anakaris is better than these guys.
> >
> >Guile is better than charlie in low-level comp, Charlie can be a cross-up
> >whore.
>
> Why is Charlie landing crossups vs anyone but low level comp?
> Guile wins on better supers and damage, a better air flashkick, and his
> air throw which will occasionally catch someone sleeping for a single
> extra pop-up w/o damage reduction.
In low level comp, where ppl don't block every time, you look for someone
who deals good damage and longer combos. In high comp, the better pixies
are those who can find open holes most often. Charlie opens holes easier
than Guile, while Guile does more damage IF he finds a hole.
Charlie has air throw too, and in high comp you can see air throw from
miles away and tech all the time.
Jack "Fob Master" Lin
AK
JackTheFob (jac...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
: > In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Leaves Doom extremely vulnerable. My dhalsim is ok, but I don't rely on
teleport at all. It's all about his s. short, priority and reach wise.
He has the ability to punish assists using his short 3-hit ground chains
repeatedly... it forces your opponent to block while his assist is
getting hit. That's actually key if you're talking about assist
counter-attacking. Teleport is way slow and his keepaway is very
limited. I highly doubt the japanese play him with keepaway... he does
very well on the offense.
A runaway Dhalsim would get crushed by Cable, .. his keepaway simply
isn't at that level.
:
: > >> BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
: > >> you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
: > >
: > >BBH does runaway work and triple super work.
: >
: > Her TT is overrated and her ability to keep away with missiles is
: > about as good as megaman's fierce.
: >
There's a good BBH that plays downtown and at Goodtimes in Boston. Cruel
hunting and her mines/missles are most of her game. She can do a s.
roundhouse, db+roundhouse XX missle and that leaves plenty of crap for
the opponent to deal with along with her assist attacking at the same
time. Her mines stop dash-ins. But from how I've seen BBH played well,
her Cruel hunting is really effective (particularly against those who use
b-cyclops without regard). Damage/coverage/chip-wise, it's better than a
lot of the other heavy damage "beam" attacks in the game (PC, MOB, etc.).
: >
: > Samurai chips ok as help but IMO is not great (Spiral's alpha is about as
: > good). I just don't see him as better than Magneto, for instance, or on
: > par with Juggernaut.
He takes away a good portion of Strider/Spiral's game (teleport), and
qcf+kk also destroys Juggernaut/Doom assist. It takes way too much
damage if you get nailed up close. He's got a chipping game, too, but I
think the main threat he poses to top tier is assist abuse and teleporting.
There's a safe pocket in the qcf+kk that keeps a flying sentinel safe,
but most other aerial attacks have to be done with caution.
: Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage and
: headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
Juggernaut and AAA is a major threat.
--
AK
Cammy White
MvC1... Either we never figured it out right or they don't know
what they're talking about.
JackTheFob
When leading a lot there is no point to risk yourself being offensive, one
mistake = ahvb * 3, hyper-tempest * 5, or 8-hit headcrush, not worth
Play like a Japanese and do some runaway thing
> :
> : > >> BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH). Why would you want SS when
> : > >> you can play Spiral? What does BBH add to a team strategically?
> : > >
> : > >BBH does runaway work and triple super work.
> : >
> : > Her TT is overrated and her ability to keep away with missiles is
> : > about as good as megaman's fierce.
> : >
>
>
> There's a good BBH that plays downtown and at Goodtimes in Boston. Cruel
> hunting and her mines/missles are most of her game. She can do a s.
> roundhouse, db+roundhouse XX missle and that leaves plenty of crap for
> the opponent to deal with along with her assist attacking at the same
> time. Her mines stop dash-ins. But from how I've seen BBH played well,
> her Cruel hunting is really effective (particularly against those who use
> b-cyclops without regard). Damage/coverage/chip-wise, it's better than a
> lot of the other heavy damage "beam" attacks in the game (PC, MOB, etc.).
>
yea that's like how BBH here plays like
>
> : >
> : > Samurai chips ok as help but IMO is not great (Spiral's alpha is about as
> : > good). I just don't see him as better than Magneto, for instance, or on
> : > par with Juggernaut.
>
>
> He takes away a good portion of Strider/Spiral's game (teleport), and
> qcf+kk also destroys Juggernaut/Doom assist. It takes way too much
> damage if you get nailed up close. He's got a chipping game, too, but I
> think the main threat he poses to top tier is assist abuse and teleporting.
> There's a safe pocket in the qcf+kk that keeps a flying sentinel safe,
> but most other aerial attacks have to be done with caution.
>
> : Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage and
> : headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
>
>
> Juggernaut and AAA is a major threat.
Like Juggernaut + Commando/BH? i luv it
>
> --
> AK
>
>
sol t kim
they knew wolverine, I don't think Japanese don't know what they are
talking about...
In article <030b237a...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com>,
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>Sim has no chip pontential but doom does.....so include floating on your
>runaway loop, call doom during floating, then air dash or teleport...when
>time's running out even experts should get some nervous coz they are still
>human beings...then just doom more
Call BH. If Sim does anything, triple bake, otherwise a. fierce XX VB.
Among other things. Flying around with Sim is like flying around with
Sentinel except you do less and take more and don't chip and your range is
overall not as good. But other than that it's good =)
>> Samurai chips ok as help but IMO is not great (Spiral's alpha is about as
>> good). I just don't see him as better than Magneto, for instance, or on
>> par with Juggernaut.
>Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage and
>headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
CC/BH.
>If Japan says SS is good, SS is good....what's the last time Japan made a
>lame ranking?
This is one of those times where I wish posting in 22 point font
was allowed. Anyways:
**** BIRDIE top tier in A2 ****
>In low level comp, where ppl don't block every time, you look for someone
>who deals good damage and longer combos. In high comp, the better pixies
>are those who can find open holes most often. Charlie opens holes easier
>than Guile, while Guile does more damage IF he finds a hole.
I don't see Charlie opening up more holes than Guile. What are
you going to do to open someone up?
>Charlie has air throw too, and in high comp you can see air throw from
>miles away and tech all the time.
If you can't sneak in a throw, it's not because they're too easy
to tech. You only have to wait a split second to do the throw instead
ofthe fi/rh finisher. It is not a particularly important reason Guile is
better though.
>Jack "Fob Master" Lin
Stilt Man
AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>JackTheFob (jac...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: > Her TT is overrated and her ability to keep away with missiles is
>: > about as good as megaman's fierce.
>There's a good BBH that plays downtown and at Goodtimes in Boston. Cruel
>hunting and her mines/missles are most of her game.
Somewhere in here amidst descriptions of BBHood's power, I probably ought to
volunteer a first-hand description of the way Jackson plays with her on what
I've been calling his "mess around" team.
Jackson puts her together with Jug-B/Hulk-B (Jug punch/headcrush and
horiz. gamma charge/gamma crush) and then spends all day jumping around to
fill the meter and harass you. Once in a while he'll throw a Jug punch just
to annoy you and possibly do damage. But ultimately, he doesn't even really
care whether BBHood wins or loses the opening fights, as long as she stays
alive and on the field long enough to collect three meters. Once she's got
that with those two behind her, your next screwup costs you a character on
your team. Helpers are easiest to kill, but if she can catch a primary so
much the better. Just about any helper who takes normal or worse damage will
die outright in one shot, with minimal opportunity for counterattack. Cruel
Hunting holds you down and starts blasting the helper silly, the headcrush
probably will make it worse, and all of it just sort of waits until the Hulk
comes down with the meteor to pancake the poor sod for whatever's left. And
that's WITHOUT Juggernaut being glitched.
With all the crud that Hood throws around together with the Jug punch, rushing
her down is basically impossible with most chars. Most rushers are going to
need a helper to get past both Hood's crud and Juggernaut, which puts you on
the clock to kill Hood before she's got three meters or the game's probably
over -- once she's got three meters she can gradually wear your rusher down
because if you call a helper, she'll kill it, and if you switch chars, she'll
kill or maim that, too. The only chars that can really beat it are the top
tier guys -- Doom can bomb them better than BBHood can bomb him, Sentinel
and Cable can beat them at their own helper-slaughtering game, Storm plays
much the same as Doom, Spiral and Strider could either out-crud it or teleport
past it, etc.
IMO, there are two main definitions for what would constitute "second tier".
One of them is if you can beat the vast majority of the chars and have a
winnable but not optimistic game against at least some of the top tier. The
other is if you can squash everyone _but_ the top tier, who in turn squashes
you. BBHood is in the latter category.
>: Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage and
>: headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
>Juggernaut and AAA is a major threat.
Yes, he is. If Jug has altitude help the bombing game doesn't win for free
any more, and many of the bombers have serious problems with Juggernaut if
he can keep them near the ground. I know that Doom is usually considered
the "beat Juggernaut for free" char of choice, but the last couple of days
I've been abusing some Dooms pretty badly with Venom/Jug/Cammy by using
Cammy to keep them on the ground and either Venom or Jug (or both) mauling
them up close once I've got them there. I'm not going to profess that they'll
win this more often than not, but they've got a winnable game with it,
certainly.
This is one spot where I've got issue with the tier chart that got posted
there -- I think Rogue, Venom, and Jug all went way too low. Yes, none of
those three have good projectiles or keepaway games, but they're all very
dangerous in a close-up rush, either by ability to initiate attack (Rogue),
ability to keep their enemies from initiating attack (Venom), or by ability
to splatter them if they just throw something with a recovery time from too
close (Jug being obviously the best of these, but with Rogue not too far
behind and Venom a little further behind). Jug is the easiest of the three
to pin down (big slow target, doesn't have an air dash) but all of them, to
some degree, pose a very real threat if you don't keep them a full screen
away.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
AK
: On 2 Aug 2000, AK wrote:
: > Distribution:
: >
: > JackTheFob (jac...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: > : On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
: > Leaves Doom extremely vulnerable. My dhalsim is ok, but I don't rely on
: > teleport at all. It's all about his s. short, priority and reach wise.
: > He has the ability to punish assists using his short 3-hit ground chains
: > repeatedly... it forces your opponent to block while his assist is
: > getting hit. That's actually key if you're talking about assist
: > counter-attacking. Teleport is way slow and his keepaway is very
: > limited. I highly doubt the japanese play him with keepaway... he does
: > very well on the offense.
: >
: > A runaway Dhalsim would get crushed by Cable, .. his keepaway simply
: > isn't at that level.
: When leading a lot there is no point to risk yourself being offensive, one
: mistake = ahvb * 3, hyper-tempest * 5, or 8-hit headcrush, not worth
: Play like a Japanese and do some runaway thing
My impression was that the Japanese play offensive powerhouse. Just look
at some of their combo movies. Of course their style has probably
adapted to the strong keepaway in mvc2; however, as stated already,
Dhalsim has nothing to do from a distance that is safer than doing up
close(in another words he has no downwards projectile he can launch from
the air with little/no recovery). And besides, you can't AHVB a dhalsim
that's in your face with s. short.
Keepaway is much better played by the other characters in top tier...
keepaway certainly can't be why he's placed in top ranks. Even that top
-of-the-screen teleporting trick has holes and is generally weak since
pulling out any offense from that location is ineffective. You'd better
be ahead by about 2 characters if you want to do that, at which point you
probably don't need it.
--
AK
ICaptainAmerical
>
>> MvC2. If you can, please respond with your top 14 and bottom 14 characters.
>> If you want to, put them in some order, and if you're feeling extremely
>> gung-ho, rank all 56.
>>
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Let me try ranking these boys/gals/animals, I might be biased on middle
>tiers...either they don't have good tourney performances or have not been
>exposed, and keep in mind that mvc2 is a team game, so some team
>combinations can just be overpowered
>
>Tier 1
>------
>
>Spiral
>Sentinel
>Dhalsim
>Cable
>Storm
>Strider
>Blackheart
>
>------
>
>Cyclops
>Cammy
>Iceman
>Captain Commando
>BBHood
>Ironman
>Power-up Juggeranut
>Silver Samurai
>
>------
>
>Omega Red
>Magneto
>Bison
>Ken
>Tron
>Psylocke
>Felicia
>Colossus
>
>------
>
>Captain America
>Anakaris
>Ruby Heart
>Gambit
>Ryu
>Rogue
>Charlie
>Hulk
>
>------
>
>Guile
>Jill
>Akuma
>Hayato
>Thanos
>War Machine
>Sakura
>Venom
>
>------
>
>Morrigan
>Amingo
>Sabretooth
>Bonerine
>Megaman
>Wolverine
>Sonson
>Jin
>
>Tier 7
>------
>
>Shuma
>Spiderman
>Marrow
>Chun Li
>Kobun
>Zangief
>Dan
>Roll
>
>
>
>Megaman - Japan has a good ranking on him, but he must have something else
>beside rockball trap
>
>Ruby Heart - I know she can trap, but not sure if those Japanse long ass
>combos matter or not
>
>Silver Samurai - Good chipping, good meter building, but he uses lots of
>meters too....Japan gives him a good ranking
>
>Jin - I like Beta assist but not sure his potential on field, i can only
>play pixie Jin
>
>
Utterly ridiculous. Captain America is easily in the top tier. Besides having
above average strength and vitality, 70% combos with five button presses, a
double jump, incredible range in the air and ground, covering moves, a
cartwheel which makes him invincible a few seconds so he can glide across the
screen, the ability to negate any projectile, and one of the best assists in
the game. Yeah, he must belong on the fourth tier. It's like Spiral. Everyone
thought she sucked until Duc wiped the floor with everyone using Spiral.
Utterly ridiculous.
Chocobo
> >On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Will Beckley wrote:
> >
> >> I'm curious as to what people perceive as the top tier and bottom tier of
> >> MvC2. If you can, please respond with your top 14 and bottom 14 characters.
> >> If you want to, put them in some order, and if you're feeling extremely
> >> gung-ho, rank all 56.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Will
> >>
> >Let me try ranking these boys/gals/animals, I might be biased on middle
> >tiers...either they don't have good tourney performances or have not been
> >exposed, and keep in mind that mvc2 is a team game, so some team
> >combinations can just be overpowered
> >
> >Tier 1
> >------
> >
> >Doom
> >Spiral
> >Sentinel
> >Dhalsim
> >Cable
> >Storm
> >Strider
> >Blackheart
>
> Utterly ridiculous. Captain America is easily in the top tier. Besides having
> above average strength and vitality, 70% combos with five button presses, a
> double jump, incredible range in the air and ground, covering moves, a cartwheel
> which makes him invincible a few seconds so he can glide across the screen, the
> ability to negate any projectile, and one of the best assists in
> the game. Yeah, he must belong on the fourth tier.
Doom has one of the best assists in the game as well as the best keepaway game,
Spiral and Sentinel can put a million things on the screen at once to do a ton of
damage, Blackheart has arguably the best assist in the game, Cable can do 100%
damage for one mistake anywhere on the screen, Strider can turn on ouroboros and
do 50% block damage before you get a chance to move. C.America has... a double
jump, a useless cartwheel, and an average anti-air assist. woo. What kind of
damage are you playing on where C.America can do a 70% combo? And anyway, that
requires the opponent not blocking at point blank range, a rare situation in MVC2.
He is nowhere near the level of these top level characters.
He's slow, has no exception assist, isn't much for punishing mistakes, can't do a
whole lot of damage, and doesn't have very good supers. Putting him in the same
company as Ryu and Ruby Heart is being generous.
> It's like Spiral. Everyone thought she sucked until Duc wiped the floor with
> everyone using Spiral.
Who's been beating everyone with C.America? Nobody.
AK
: cartwheel which makes him invincible a few seconds so he can glide across the
: screen, the ability to negate any projectile, and one of the best assists in
: thought she sucked until Duc wiped the floor with everyone using Spiral.
Well not commenting on your CapAm comments (I'm sure you'll say you
didn't mean it in hindsight), but Spiral was known to be a powerhouse not
too long after the game came out. Her strengths aren't that easy to see
when trying her out, but what adds to her game is her a) ability to get
out of traps andb b) ability to get above the "dump shit from above" tactic.
Yea she stops assists with knives, can cause virtual lockdowns, has a 85%
combo, blah blah all known before any major national tournies. To say she
was viewed as sucking until b4 is false. She's good but has got some
issues in her game that keep her from being #1.
CapAm shares absolutely nothing in common with Spiral or any of the top
two tiers, for that matter.
--
AK
Peter Mouko Nguyen
>
hit cable so you're ahead..sj -> air dash -> teleport infinite..whee I beat
cable.
~Miggity Mouko~
Cammy White
the game when she wasn't released yet. Tom Cannon used Spiral in
Chicago. Lots of people used Spiral at B4. Spiral talk has been
around for a long long while. Cap America, on the other hand, has
no real way to stop bombers (like Doom), and his moves all have
too much recovery to go toe-to-toe against someone like Cable or
Sentinel. He doesn't have a fast enough dash, his cartwheel is
overrated, and *everyone* can do a 70% damage combo quite
handily. He's got a good assist. He can't really counter any sort
of teleportation or flying. He's middle tier, maybe a little
higher at best. Or, if you can do it, just do his Justice
Handcuffs and be done with it.
--Cam
Peter Mouko Nguyen
sorry i don't see it
> Besides having
>above average strength and vitality, 70% combos with five button presses, a
>double jump, incredible range in the air and ground, covering moves, a
>cartwheel which makes him invincible a few seconds so he can glide across the
>screen, the ability to negate any projectile, and one of the best assists in
>the game.>>
let me ask you..how does it get past anything top? Can he dish it out head to
head with sentinel? Cable? Get loose from the spiral trap? get Sim? Storm? doom
for that matter? I don't think so. True, he may HAVE SOME cartwheel games
upclose (i assume helper ->carthweel) but I don't think he's top tier. His
cartwheel is semi usefull (considering every team now should have a least 1
AAA)
Yeah, he must belong on the fourth tier. It's like Spiral. Everyone
>thought she sucked until Duc wiped the floor with everyone using Spiral.
trust me, a lot of people knew spiral was really good, it's just duc has a
special spiral with a super charged turbo jab button :)
>Utterly ridiculous.
yes it seems
~Miggity Mouko~
Jinmaster
and at B4. Secondly, Mag's dash lets him punish nearly anything from up
to a whole screen away. He definately is not top tier, but he has done
well in practice. I have yet to see anyone escape the AC into super
100% of the time, although some persistent people I know have gotten
pretty good at it nowadays.
In article <39883021...@mindspring.com>,
cho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Arturo Sanchez wrote:
>
> > Jack, I only took a quick glance at your rankings, so I'm not going
to
> > comment on that for the most part..since they're somewhat
right...but why
> > is Magneto is Tier 3? He should be in the top of tier 2, if not
Tier 1
> > even.
>
> Why do you believe that? I hope you're not counting his ability to do
100% in
> one (escapable) air combo. Without that, he's simply above average.
>
>
--
Homepage for Marvel Vs. Capcom I and
II:http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/
Homepage for Starcraft:
http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/starcraft/intro.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Mouko Nguyen
>Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
Sim owns everyone you listed...
hits them so he's ahead (with helper..whatever..) then super jump-air dash and
teleport ALL DAY..gone..I ownz you
>BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH).
BBH has bomb games that are ugly..mad chipping of her super as well. Semi easy
infinite.
IM has damaging air combos, out the cuts proton cannon, good helper
SS can punish helpers BADLY with his electricity which is safe against everyone
if blocked or hit except Cable (who can IAHVB it ) He has good chipping blocked
combos as well.
>Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does more damage
>and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good too.
Ryu is better overall. Good assist, better combos.
>Guile is better than Charlie, and Anakaris is better than these guys.
I agree, Anakaris is better
>Sonson is bottom tier. No damage.
sonson is good. Mad mix up games..wall runs and solid air combo -> stick super.
Ask buuzilla.
>Thanos? He's neither small nor particularly great at combos except for
>his infinite and supers. At least he can super out of a lot of things.
helper is good..combos good as well as infinite is easy.
~Miggity Mouko~
tortoise
>>No way in hell Dhalsim dominates a match like Cable, Doom,
Sentinel.
>>Where is his helper kill? Standing fierce?
>
>Sim owns everyone you listed...
>
>hits them so he's ahead (with helper..whatever..)
>then super jump-air dash and
>teleport ALL DAY..gone..I ownz you
Is his teleport completey invincible?
>>BBH, IM, and SS are not that good (esp. BBH).
>
>BBH has bomb games that are ugly..mad
>chipping of her super as well. Semi easy
>infinite.
>
She can get punished hard after a blocked
good hunting though. She just stands there
forever :)
>>Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does
more
damage
>>and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good
too.
>
>Ryu is better overall. Good assist, better combos.
Like what? I've not seen any good
Shoto play in this game. I still think Ken's
air hurricane kick is a strong factor towards
making him better than Ryu.
>I agree, Anakaris is better
>
I think Anakaris is actually quite good,
say top of the third tier. Hey KapKom, if you're
reading this, give the low down on Anak :)
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
sol t kim
Spiral. Feel free to jump in and share the infos and techs.
In article <8ma26m$msv$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Well not commenting on your CapAm comments (I'm sure you'll say you
>didn't mean it in hindsight), but Spiral was known to be a powerhouse not
>too long after the game came out. Her strengths aren't that easy to see
>when trying her out, but what adds to her game is her a) ability to get
>out of traps andb b) ability to get above the "dump shit from above" tactic.
Agreed. Her teleport is the best in the game, and her knives are possibly
the best non-super projectile in the game as well (guesses on the best
projectile super, anybody?)
>Yea she stops assists with knives, can cause virtual lockdowns, has a 85%
>combo, blah blah all known before any major national tournies. To say she
>was viewed as sucking until b4 is false. She's good but has got some
>issues in her game that keep her from being #1.
This is my question. I just started picking up Spiral, and all I manage
to do so far is to just endless knives, teleports, build meter and switch
out (to Cable/Strider/whoever). Can anyone post tactics/comboes that do
sizable damage with her, as well as helpers that go well with her? Tricks
with her Metamorphosis super doesn't seem to work after a few times. Ways
to deal with pixie rush/tricks&ticks, ect. are also appreciated.
Also, what is this 'issues in her game' that keep her from being #1? As I
see it, she can deal with most of the top tiers (Doom/Cable/Sentinel),
beat up the pixies (teleport away and knives, repeat). That seems like a
darn respective #1 prospective to me..
>CapAm shares absolutely nothing in common with Spiral or any of the top
>two tiers, for that matter.
IMO CapAm just cannot deal with runaway tactics (be it in the air or on
the ground).
--
JackTheFob
On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Cammy White wrote:
> The japanese ranked Spider-Man tops for some strange reason in
> MvC1... Either we never figured it out right or they don't know
> what they're talking about.
>
Do they include Duo factor? if Spidy's top in a pre-duo ranking it is
acceptable
JackTheFob
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> JackTheFob <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >On Wed, 2 Aug 2000, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
> >> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> >Sim has no chip pontential but doom does.....so include floating on your
> >runaway loop, call doom during floating, then air dash or teleport...when
> >time's running out even experts should get some nervous coz they are still
> >human beings...then just doom more
>
> Call BH. If Sim does anything, triple bake, otherwise a. fierce XX VB.
> Among other things. Flying around with Sim is like flying around with
> Sentinel except you do less and take more and don't chip and your range is
> overall not as good. But other than that it's good =)
Sentinel doesn't teleport, and if there is BH you do more teleport on your
runaway loop
>
> >If Japan says SS is good, SS is good....what's the last time Japan made a
> >lame ranking?
>
> This is one of those times where I wish posting in 22 point font
> was allowed. Anyways:
>
>
> **** BIRDIE top tier in A2 ****
and i heard they play keepaway birdie.....
Jack "Fob Master" Lin
JackTheFob
> above average strength and vitality, 70% combos with five button presses, a
> double jump, incredible range in the air and ground, covering moves, a
> cartwheel which makes him invincible a few seconds so he can glide across the
> screen, the ability to negate any projectile, and one of the best assists in
> thought she sucked until Duc wiped the floor with everyone using Spiral.
>
>
heh, Japan ranked Spiral as top tier before Duc digged her...Spiral
started strong, unlike gief, who was called top tier on like first couple
weeks :(
Hmm, cartwheel, might be a good thing, gotta fool around with captain
america tonite
JackTheFob
> Who's been beating everyone with C.America? Nobody.
>
>
>
Peter Mouko Nguyen
>sizable damage with her, as well as helpers that go well with her?
whatever into c.rh-sj.jab-sj.short-sj.strong-sj.foward-air throw DP (dp+
punch..hold up) throw them up..you can do it again but it's risky
I usualy activate knives here and do the circle of knives (qcf+short) then
reactivate knives..whatever
>Tricks
>with her Metamorphosis super doesn't seem to work after a few times.
if you're comboing it, press jab instead of fierce..i see a lot of people
making this mistake.
>Ways
>to deal with pixie rush/tricks&ticks, ect. are also appreciated.
>
Knives -> circle of knives ->activate knives again stops a lot of jump ins and
rushes
>As I
>see it, she can deal with most of the top tiers (Doom/Cable/Sentinel),
>beat up the pixies (teleport away and knives, repeat). That seems like a
>darn respective #1 prospective to me..
she's good..but I honestly think she's a few tricks here and there but she's
still top, but certainly not the "best"
~Miggity Mouko~
Lupid
raped by beamers, but with Cable in the #2 spot and the ability
to hit that jab button like Super-NES-Mortal-Kombat-trying-to-
break-diamond style she's damn good. I played her for a while
alongside Strider/Doom for meter, but she just getsby beams.
Also, her teleport is vulnerable as she reappears. Know what
you're doing. BTW, knives/doom, arm knives, short forward fierce
repeat owns.
Stilt Man
Well, back before Brian got particularly good at Lloyd, he used to do a duo
with Spidey and Strider where he'd throw Crawler Assault together with Legion.
If you gave Spidey a partner like that or WM, where the same kick super motion
at least puts up a _respectable_ block damage content from the other one, and
then Spidey is left to go to work on his own after that and win the head-on
game, I suppose I could see their viewpoint even after the duos.
Unless MaxSpider goes through WD and Legion, I'm not sure what other excuse
there'd be.
Stilt Man
tortoise <mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid> wrote:
>inkh...@aol.com (Peter Mouko Nguyen) wrote:
>>BBH has bomb games that are ugly..mad
>>chipping of her super as well. Semi easy
>>infinite.
>She can get punished hard after a blocked
>good hunting though. She just stands there
>forever :)
BBHood's best game that I've seen isn't based on block damage, it's based on
annoying you while she builds meter and then pulling out a triple team with
some really painful buddies (the best pair I've seen is Jug's headcrush plus
Hulk's gamma crush) whenever you show a helper. The Cruel Hunting comes out
pretty much instantly, which holds down the helper in the barrage while Jug
and Hulk splatter it from every which direction with basically no chance for
counterattack. As in, a large percentage of the chars _die_outright_ from
that one triple-team. Her teammates are probably going to be in the way of
you punishing her directly, and then she just has to fire something at you
again to make sure that you don't commit too much mischief on them before
they're out of there.
If you want to beat her, it's going to either be by out-bombing her without
having to show a helper, by out-punishing her in the same way, or by getting
around her crud with a teleport of some form. That basically leaves you only
with the top tier chars. If a char can be the lynchpin char on a team that
crushes everyone below the top tier, I'd call that a pretty strong argument
for putting them in the second tier at the very least.
>>>Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does more damage
>>>and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good too.
>>Ryu is better overall. Good assist, better combos.
>Like what? I've not seen any good
>Shoto play in this game. I still think Ken's
>air hurricane kick is a strong factor towards
>making him better than Ryu.
Ryu has the best projectiles, the safest way to punish helpers, and takes the
most damage of any of the shotos. Akuma has a bit of an argument against him
because of all the damage he can inflict, the bomb-capable AFB, and the dive
kick. Ken has no argument against him whatsoever -- he can't get around any
of the traps to rush any better than either Ryu or Akuma, and his effective
range is far lower.
tortoise
>BBHood's best game that I've seen
>isn't based on block damage, it's based on
>annoying you while she builds meter
I agree, that's the best way I've seen her
played. Also annoying if you have no
beam capabilities on your team.
>Ryu has the best projectiles
Yeah but it's a projectile. Doesn't mean
much in a game full of beams :) If anything
I'd take Akuma's air fireball out of the three.
> Akuma has a bit of an argument against him
>because of all the damage he can inflict
I dunno. Granted I've not seen a good
Akuma, I just can't see him getting anything
that makes his damage handicap worth it.
But I suppose I could see him gaining stuff
that makes his damage handicapp worth it
as far as picking him over Ken.
Oh yeah, BTW Stilt, I got your email. But I got
it a few days after the fact and I no longer
needed to email you :)
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Stilt Man
>>Sentinel is below Cable
Dhalsim's going to need to get past Cable's battery starter before he's going
to be ahead. What happens if that battery starter is, say... Storm? Dhalsim
does not win a contest with Storm under most any circumstances. His reach is
not much more than hers, her projectiles cut straight through his, she can
bomb him from basically anywhere on the screen, and even if he did, by some
miracle, manage to get some sort of lead, there's nowhere on the screen he
can hide from the hailstorm. All Storm has to do is hand a lead and at least
three meters over to Cable (and she'll have little difficulty accomplishing
either goal against Dhalsim), and Cable can just sit on it. Name me a single
move that Dhalsim can do to Cable that he can't BFG either during the move
or after he blocks it, when it's Cable and not Dhalsim that's holding the lead
that Storm handed him.
BH's going to give Dhalsim fits regardless of whether he's ahead or not. While
you're farting around in the stratosphere, he's batterying up near the ground,
and every now and then he'll throw an inferno/HOD. One of those air dashes
or teleport's is going to be mistimed sooner or later, and then he's going to
eat demons.
Dhalsim has pretty much no answer to Doom, on the ground or in the air.
I imagine he could stall on the Strider/Doom trap (anyone more familiar with
this than me want to comment?) but I still don't see how he'd actually come
out _ahead_ in that against Strider.
Spiral, he just plain _wouldn't_ come out ahead against. She'd hose him down
with the knives, and again, even if he tried to hide, all she has to do is
teleport over to him and throw more knives at him. You can't hide from Spiral,
either.
And I'm sorry, you're NOT going to win with Dhalsim against Sentinel.
Chocobo
> Well, for one, Magneto players have placed high at both SHGL tourneys
> and at B4.
Where no one mashed out of his tempest combos for some stupid reason.
> Secondly, Mag's dash lets him punish nearly anything from up
> to a whole screen away.
He does have his strengths.
KapKom
> say top of the third tier. Hey KapKom, if you're
> reading this, give the low down on Anak :)
Anakaris is very good. Reasons?
#1 Not used often - people don't always know what to expect.
#2 Deals decent damage - Nice damege from combos w/o supers. ALL 4
supers comboable,
3 do between 50-80%.
#3 Mummy Wrap - Can grab many people out of their supers and is the 2nd
most damaging,
non-mashable throw in the game, can OTG
after it, and goes through projectiles.
#4 Nice Super Meter builer - For some reason basic air and ground combos
build meter quickly.
#5 Can play close and has an average keepaway game.
#6 Has an overhead. Can combo after his overhead.
#7 His Apha Counter/Super Cancel (Snake Super) at close range is very
good.
#8 Has an air dash
#9 Great member of just about any team because of assists and DHC
ablity.
#10 LONG range. Overhead, sweep, and Roundhouse (can be controlled back
or forward)
#11 Fast block (Remember Chun Li from MvC1) His slow jump, where he
extends his legs, fools
many to attack. They swear he should've been hit but
we know the truth :-)
#12 Last, but not least, the best reason Anakaris is very good (middle
or bottom tier 2 IMO) IS........
because I use him. ;-) (That last
one's deserves a big fat YEAH RIGHT!)
Stilt Man
>In article <8m9reo$t83$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>> This is one spot where I've got issue with the tier chart that got posted
>> there -- I think Rogue, Venom, and Jug all went way too low. Yes, none of
>> those three have good projectiles or keepaway games, but they're all very
>> dangerous in a close-up rush, either by ability to initiate attack (Rogue),
>> ability to keep their enemies from initiating attack (Venom), or by ability
>> to splatter them if they just throw something with a recovery time from too
>> close (Jug being obviously the best of these, but with Rogue not too far
>> behind and Venom a little further behind). Jug is the easiest of the three
>> to pin down (big slow target, doesn't have an air dash) but all of them, to
>> some degree, pose a very real threat if you don't keep them a full screen
>> away.
>Ok. One major reason that very few close-in rushers didn't make it into
>the top tiers is because that strategy is completely blasted by helpers.
> The right AAA (Cyclops, CapCom, Cammy, Ken, etc) completely roasts
>Venom, and Rogue, and Juggie also has a severe weakness to Doom AAA (and
>just to let you know, Zangiefs FAB will snatch a headcrushing
>Juggeraut.)
Some of this is true. However, let's not forget that the close-in rushers
get helpers, too. The reason that I'd say Venom and Rogue do better is
because their game is more passive anyway. If they bring the good helpers
themselves, they can keep the helper game even, which gives them a very
winnable match (or better) against a lot of people. After all, no one's
going to dispute that Magneto is high up in the tier chart (probably not
at the top, no, but still high up), but a great deal of the argument for
putting him there is his close-up rushing game. He can attack without a
lot of warning and do a lot of damage while he's at it. Venom can attack
without a lot of warning and preclude a great deal of similar attacks from
his enemies because the fang just plain runs over most of them. Rogue can
attack without a lot of warning and cut down the response options because,
unless she's stupid enough to dive kick repeatedly, she can finish her
attack and then just wait for the next opportunity, possibly either power
draining or using a helper for safe block damage.
I wouldn't put the above in the _top_ tier (after all, it was I who commented
with only small sarcasm that Doom's rocks give Juggernaut so many fits that
_Roll_ could probably give him a run for his money with Doom behind her) but
they're certainly major threats and have winnable matches against a lot of
people. A great many second tier people have difficulties keeping away
from Venom and Rogue and can't really deal with them close up (e.g. Iceman)
if their helpers don't have a gross advantage. I'd say Venom, Rogue, and
Juggernaut all belong somewhere in the top 25% of the chars.
>The only one that doesn't really seem to follow this logic is Cammy. I
>would assume the reasoning for her being so high is her AAA is pretty
>much tied at first place with Ken in terms of priority, though both have
>their merits in certain battles, and Cammy's seems to get all of it's
>merits against upper tier fliers and such. Also, she roasts Cable with
>the Maximum Cammy and does so by luring him to AHVB a helper, thus
>erasing one of his precious levels of super and netting you some damage.
> She is about the only one that can use helpers at will against a loaded
>Cable.
All of this is agreed. I'd put Cammy ahead, overall, over any of the three
I've mentioned. Cammy-A can make most teams at least modestly respectable
just by showing up. The only assist I'd put ahead of the cannon spike
for overall effectiveness without an argument is Doom-B, which simply makes
or breaks so many teams that it is, IMO, the no-argument best assist in the
game. Simple question: what teammate could you possibly put with Strider/BH
that would make that team HALF as effective as Doom-B does? IMHO, those two
wouldn't have any business anywhere near a "top tier" discussion without
Doom. I don't see their effectiveness with Doom as any real sign that
they're all that awesome, but rather as further testimony of how complete
Doom's dominance as the best char in the game really is -- he's so much better
than everyone else, that he makes at least two other chars top tier just by
being there with them.
Lupid
>including, of course, his own. His helper punsihing super isn't
>safe if the primary blocks OR is hit by the jumping version; a
>lot of people can punish that, not just Cable and Jug. You
>might as well be doing a shoryureppa. Ken breaks some things up
>due to his ability to SRK a beam from noticably further away.
>Ryu's combos are worse than Ken's too.
Jab, Fierce, RH Hurricane Kick XX Shinkuu Hadoken looks cool.
Ryu is better.
Make someone block the right super and Dhalsim gets a free 50%
DHC. It's always 50%, even if the first super hits, since the
yoga strike is never a "true" combo. Japan can probably do,
like, combos and stuff with him too.
A2 Birdie rocks.
Fluffy
> AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >JackTheFob (jac...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
[snip]
> IMO, there are two main definitions for what would constitute "second
tier".
> One of them is if you can beat the vast majority of the chars and have
a
> winnable but not optimistic game against at least some of the top
tier. The
> other is if you can squash everyone _but_ the top tier, who in turn
squashes
> you. BBHood is in the latter category.
>
> >: Juggernaut is a scary one dimensional character based on his damage
and
> >: headcrush, but dies to too many flying characters.
Ahem. Cable is a scary one dimensional character based on his keep-away
and AHVB. Being one-dimensional doesn't mean anything, but cause that's
what helpers are for. Just thought I'd throw that in.
> >Juggernaut and AAA is a major threat.
>
> Yes, he is. If Jug has altitude help the bombing game doesn't win for
free
> any more, and many of the bombers have serious problems with
Juggernaut if
> he can keep them near the ground. I know that Doom is usually
considered
> the "beat Juggernaut for free" char of choice, but the last couple of
days
> I've been abusing some Dooms pretty badly with Venom/Jug/Cammy by
using
> Cammy to keep them on the ground and either Venom or Jug (or both)
mauling
> them up close once I've got them there. I'm not going to profess that
they'll
> win this more often than not, but they've got a winnable game with it,
> certainly.
Juggeraut.) There are things that stop a Headcrush if you're watching
for it.
The majority of the upper tier aren't roasted by one assist alone or if
they are then they have an alternate strategy to apply in such a case,
or you can just be like Cable and erase people if you have 4 levels of
super.
The only one that doesn't really seem to follow this logic is Cammy. I
would assume the reasoning for her being so high is her AAA is pretty
much tied at first place with Ken in terms of priority, though both have
their merits in certain battles, and Cammy's seems to get all of it's
merits against upper tier fliers and such. Also, she roasts Cable with
the Maximum Cammy and does so by luring him to AHVB a helper, thus
erasing one of his precious levels of super and netting you some damage.
She is about the only one that can use helpers at will against a loaded
Cable.
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>
--
Fluffy
Peter Mouko Nguyen
>does not win a contest with Storm under most any circumstances.
i know..there are certain characters this "infinite runaway" doesn't work
on..storm is one of them..but on cable/sent and nearly the rest of the
cast..they get raped..hands down.
I won't bother explaining anything else, cause I haven't even TAPPED into Sim's
power..i just been playing around with infinite run away..and i've been winning
a lot of solid matches on people.
>And I'm sorry, you're NOT going to win with Dhalsim against Sentinel.
i've faced one and one against sent..and i've never lost against a sentinel.
There's not much he can do once you are ahead and superjump->air dash->teleport
all day..he's gone
~Miggity Mouko~
AK
: In article <20000802170223...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
: Peter Mouko Nguyen <inkh...@aol.com> wrote:
: >>Can you share your Dhalsim strategy? He is above Cable?
: >>Sentinel is below Cable
: >hit cable so you're ahead..sj -> air dash -> teleport infinite..whee I beat
: >cable.
: Dhalsim's going to need to get past Cable's battery starter before he's going
: to be ahead. What happens if that battery starter is, say... Storm? Dhalsim
: does not win a contest with Storm under most any circumstances. His reach is
: not much more than hers, her projectiles cut straight through his, she can
: bomb him from basically anywhere on the screen, and even if he did, by some
: miracle, manage to get some sort of lead, there's nowhere on the screen he
: can hide from the hailstorm. All Storm has to do is hand a lead and at least
: three meters over to Cable (and she'll have little difficulty accomplishing
: either goal against Dhalsim), and Cable can just sit on it. Name me a single
: move that Dhalsim can do to Cable that he can't BFG either during the move
: or after he blocks it, when it's Cable and not Dhalsim that's holding the lead
: that Storm handed him.
s. short has about zero recovery, half screen reach, and potential to do
about 1/7th bar damage. It's not much, but you land it enough that it
becomes a problem. I'd still say he loses to Cable, but it's not that
Dhalsim has absolutely no arsenal against Cable.
: BH's going to give Dhalsim fits regardless of whether he's ahead or not. While
: you're farting around in the stratosphere, he's batterying up near the ground,
: and every now and then he'll throw an inferno/HOD. One of those air dashes
: or teleport's is going to be mistimed sooner or later, and then he's going to
: eat demons.
Dhalsim vs. BH is tough, but BH won't get inferno or HOD off that much
without getting nailed by a chain.
: Dhalsim has pretty much no answer to Doom, on the ground or in the air.
Yep, dhalsim has few answers to the dump shit from above characters.
: I imagine he could stall on the Strider/Doom trap (anyone more familiar with
: this than me want to comment?) but I still don't see how he'd actually come
: out _ahead_ in that against Strider.
Dhalsim stops Doom assist. I don't recall if his pokes will go through
orbs without dhalsim getting hit, but it's very easy to nail Doom while
forcing Strider to block.
: Spiral, he just plain _wouldn't_ come out ahead against. She'd hose him down
: with the knives, and again, even if he tried to hide, all she has to do is
: teleport over to him and throw more knives at him. You can't hide from Spiral,
: either.
Can't poke so much with crap all over the screen.. dhalism loses pretty bad.
: And I'm sorry, you're NOT going to win with Dhalsim against Sentinel.
If you can keep pressure on, Dhalsim can actually do quite well (large
character lockdown). Once you lose pressure tho, there's no way Dhalsim
will win a distance fight against Sentinel.
: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
: The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
: http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
: < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
: < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
: < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
: < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
: < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
--
AK
AK
: >Ok. One major reason that very few close-in rushers didn't make it into
: >the top tiers is because that strategy is completely blasted by helpers.
: > The right AAA (Cyclops, CapCom, Cammy, Ken, etc) completely roasts
: >Venom, and Rogue, and Juggie also has a severe weakness to Doom AAA (and
: >just to let you know, Zangiefs FAB will snatch a headcrushing
: >Juggeraut.)
: Some of this is true. However, let's not forget that the close-in rushers
: get helpers, too. The reason that I'd say Venom and Rogue do better is
: because their game is more passive anyway. If they bring the good helpers
: themselves, they can keep the helper game even, which gives them a very
: winnable match (or better) against a lot of people. After all, no one's
: going to dispute that Magneto is high up in the tier chart (probably not
: at the top, no, but still high up), but a great deal of the argument for
: putting him there is his close-up rushing game. He can attack without a
: lot of warning and do a lot of damage while he's at it. Venom can attack
: without a lot of warning and preclude a great deal of similar attacks from
: his enemies because the fang just plain runs over most of them. Rogue can
: attack without a lot of warning and cut down the response options because,
: unless she's stupid enough to dive kick repeatedly, she can finish her
: attack and then just wait for the next opportunity, possibly either power
: draining or using a helper for safe block damage.
If you have two characters with AAA, it all comes down to who can punish
assists more easily/safely/damagingly. Pixies generally lack any method to
crush an assist, that's why in the end they lose to AAA...regardless if
they can match the assist.
--
AK
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> JackTheFob <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> >> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100080...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>> >Sim has no chip pontential but doom does.....so include floating on your
>> >runaway loop, call doom during floating, then air dash or teleport...when
>> >time's running out even experts should get some nervous coz they are still
>> >human beings...then just doom more
>> Call BH. If Sim does anything, triple bake, otherwise a. fierce XX VB.
>> Among other things. Flying around with Sim is like flying around with
>> Sentinel except you do less and take more and don't chip and your range is
>> overall not as good. But other than that it's good =)
>Sentinel doesn't teleport, and if there is BH you do more teleport on your
>runaway loop
Sentinel doesn't have a teleport, Sim is better than him?
>> >If Japan says SS is good, SS is good....what's the last time Japan made a
>> >lame ranking?
>> This is one of those times where I wish posting in 22 point font
>> was allowed. Anyways:
>> **** BIRDIE top tier in A2 ****
>and i heard they play keepaway birdie.....
Keep away with what, low forward? Hope they forget to block? That
doesn't exactly seem like a great keepaway strat, as Birdie has no way to
deal damage beyond 1/3 screen (rushes don't count).
--
Shaun P. McIsaac
(508) 761 - 4722 People are more violently opposed to fur than
leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
Fluffy
stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> >Ok. One major reason that very few close-in rushers didn't make it
into
> >the top tiers is because that strategy is completely blasted by
helpers.
> > The right AAA (Cyclops, CapCom, Cammy, Ken, etc) completely roasts
> >Venom, and Rogue, and Juggie also has a severe weakness to Doom AAA
(and
> >just to let you know, Zangiefs FAB will snatch a headcrushing
> >Juggeraut.)
>
> Some of this is true. However, let's not forget that the close-in
rushers
> get helpers, too. The reason that I'd say Venom and Rogue do better
is
> because their game is more passive anyway. If they bring the good
helpers
> themselves, they can keep the helper game even, which gives them a
very
> winnable match (or better) against a lot of people.
Winnable by what definition? If you're going up against someone like
Felicia or Sakura, then yes it is winnable. But, if you're going up
against Cable or Sentinel, it's not quite winnable.
One of the reasons that upper tier characters are upper tier is because
they don't get put in that kind of situaiton. They will either have the
ability to escape rather fast through teleports, or they could have
flying based strategies, or they could lock you down before you even get
going, or they could be like Cable and just fry things.
Beating a lot of people doesn't beat the upper tier.
>A great many second tier people have difficulties keeping
away
> from Venom and Rogue and can't really deal with them close up (e.g.
Iceman)
> if their helpers don't have a gross advantage. I'd say Venom, Rogue,
and
> Juggernaut all belong somewhere in the top 25% of the chars.
That, by definition, is what makes them second tier. There is an
acceptable number of lower tier losses with the second tier. It's like
trying to tell me that Wolverine belongs because he can beat Cammy.
Remember, 25% means 14 characters, and there's still some I'd rank above
Rogue, and Venom (Juggie glitched is considered second tier, so I won't
comment on that) I still think people under-estimate Ironman AND War
Machine as well as Psylocke, Akuma, BBHood, and Ken. Put them all
together with Rogue and Venom, and you've got a good bid for a strong
third tier above the rest.
I wouldn't go as far as to say Strider and Blackheart are useless
without Doom. I think you under-estimate Blackheart. He has the
abilities to take out a lot of the cast without much difficulty, even
without Doom. And his assist rocks.
Strider on the other hand, I personally have a low opinion of him. He
does so little damage and takes so much, and it's definitely a deturrent
in a game like this, where one mistake = DHC to death. If you remove
Doom, he still gets in his licks because of the teleport. His major
advantage is the ability to protect helpers and himself by teleporting
behind you (it's still fun to Hyper Sentinel Force a helper from behind
though=P). Also, Ouroboros makes life hard for a lot of characters.
And Strider's Kitties and Birdies have almost no recovery. Those are
Strider's merits. Personally, that doesn't put him in league with
the top, but it at least secures a spot in the second tier. And keep in
mind, you have to still factor in Doom.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Stilt Man <stil...@user2.teleport.com> wrote:
>In article <1eac4898...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>,
>tortoise <mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid> wrote:
>>>>Ken's assist is a helluva lot better. The fact that he does more damage
>>>>and that his supers do not get him murdered if *hit* is good too.
>>>Ryu is better overall. Good assist, better combos.
>>Like what? I've not seen any good
>>Shoto play in this game. I still think Ken's
>>air hurricane kick is a strong factor towards
>>making him better than Ryu.
>Ryu has the best projectiles, the safest way to punish helpers, and takes the
>most damage of any of the shotos. Akuma has a bit of an argument against him
>because of all the damage he can inflict, the bomb-capable AFB, and the dive
>kick. Ken has no argument against him whatsoever -- he can't get around any
>of the traps to rush any better than either Ryu or Akuma, and his effective
>range is far lower.
Ryu's projectiles are a joke in a game with beams everywhere - including,
of course, his own. His helper punsihing super isn't safe if the primary
blocks OR is hit by the jumping version; a lot of people can punish that,
not just Cable and Jug. You might as well be doing a shoryureppa. Ken
breaks some things up due to his ability to SRK a beam from noticably
further away. Ryu's combos are worse than Ken's too.
--
JackTheFob
> Sentinel doesn't have a teleport, Sim is better than him?
Sim only dies to Storm, less mismatches baby
> >> >If Japan says SS is good, SS is good....what's the last time Japan made a
> >> >lame ranking?
> >> This is one of those times where I wish posting in 22 point font
> >> was allowed. Anyways:
> >> **** BIRDIE top tier in A2 ****
> >and i heard they play keepaway birdie.....
>
> Keep away with what, low forward? Hope they forget to block? That
> doesn't exactly seem like a great keepaway strat, as Birdie has no way to
> deal damage beyond 1/3 screen (rushes don't count).
I don't know man, maybe long-ass charged bull horn....didn't play A2
birdie Keepaway
Fluffy
cho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Jinmaster wrote:
>
> > Well, for one, Magneto players have placed high at both SHGL
tourneys
> > and at B4.
>
> Where no one mashed out of his tempest combos for some stupid reason.
Dude, I am a monster masher. I could shake out of Red Venom's Punch
throw about 90% of the time. I can shake out of Magneto's Combo maybe
25% of the time. If you can do it 100%, then kudos to you. What's your
secret? I got blisters on my hand from trying to mash out of Magneto
combos one day and it pretty much ruined my sex life for about a week=P
> > Secondly, Mag's dash lets him punish nearly anything from up
> > to a whole screen away.
>
> He does have his strengths.
Being a victim of Magneto at B4 (Image's Magneto for those who are
counting) I've seen firsthand why Magneto is as good as he is. I do
think he belongs in the first tier. He's just lightning fast. It's
hard to react against Magneto as fast as he is. The only weakness I see
he has is low-hitting AAA, like Cyclops. But, he's still fast enough to
make you throw it out and still get around it to your active character.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
JackTheFob <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Sentinel doesn't have a teleport, Sim is better than him?
>
>Sim only dies to Storm, less mismatches baby
Sim vs Doom cannot be in Sim's favor, unless there is some stupid
glitch ala Gambit. Is Sim invulnerable during his whole teleport (e.g. is
there *no* recovery and *no* startup)?
>> >> **** BIRDIE top tier in A2 ****
>> >and i heard they play keepaway birdie.....
>> Keep away with what, low forward? Hope they forget to block? That
>> doesn't exactly seem like a great keepaway strat, as Birdie has no way to
>> deal damage beyond 1/3 screen (rushes don't count).
>I don't know man, maybe long-ass charged bull horn....didn't play A2
>birdie Keepaway
Or any other type of Birdie, if you were planning on winning any
games. Bull horn does not constitute a range game. A number of people
tried; Birdie is just garbage.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Lupid <big-t-mone...@bombdiggity.com.invalid> wrote:
>>Ryu's projectiles are a joke in a game with beams everywhere -
>>including, of course, his own. His helper punsihing super isn't
>>safe if the primary blocks OR is hit by the jumping version; a
>>lot of people can punish that, not just Cable and Jug. You
>>might as well be doing a shoryureppa. Ken breaks some things up
>>due to his ability to SRK a beam from noticably further away.
>>Ryu's combos are worse than Ken's too.
>
Roll after getting hit, QCF+PP (with anyone). Or launch into your best
AC.
>A2 Birdie rocks.
99th tier [tm].
Chocobo
> In article <3988CB27...@mindspring.com>,
> cho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> > Jinmaster wrote:
> >
> > > Well, for one, Magneto players have placed high at both SHGL
> tourneys
> > > and at B4.
> >
> > Where no one mashed out of his tempest combos for some stupid reason.
>
> Dude, I am a monster masher. I could shake out of Red Venom's Punch
> throw about 90% of the time. I can shake out of Magneto's Combo maybe
> 25% of the time. If you can do it 100%, then kudos to you. What's your
> secret? I got blisters on my hand from trying to mash out of Magneto
> combos one day and it pretty much ruined my sex life for about a week=P
First, from what I heard, at B4 pretty much no one remembered to even try to
mash out of the tempest. I can mash out of the tempest combo close to 100%
of the time. My secret is pressing all of the buttons rapidly.
> > > Secondly, Mag's dash lets him punish nearly anything from up
> > > to a whole screen away.
> >
> > He does have his strengths.
>
> Being a victim of Magneto at B4 (Image's Magneto for those who are
> counting) I've seen firsthand why Magneto is as good as he is. I do
> think he belongs in the first tier. He's just lightning fast. It's
> hard to react against Magneto as fast as he is. The only weakness I see
> he has is low-hitting AAA, like Cyclops. But, he's still fast enough to
> make you throw it out and still get around it to your active character.
He is good, but he's simply not on the level of the other top characters.
Spider-Dan
>Dhalsim
>>does not win a contest with Storm under most any circumstances.
>
doesn't work
>on..storm is one of them..but on cable/sent and nearly the rest
of the
>cast..they get raped..hands down.
>
>I won't bother explaining anything else, cause I haven't even
TAPPED into Sim's
>power..i just been playing around with infinite run away..and
i've been winning
>a lot of solid matches on people.
>
Sentinel.
>
a sentinel.
>There's not much he can do once you are ahead and superjump->air
dash->teleport
>all day..he's gone
How does infinite runaway work against a flying character?
How many opponents do you go through before someone pick BH or
Commando?
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
Sabin
cho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Fluffy wrote:
>
> > In article <3988CB27...@mindspring.com>,
> > cho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> > > Jinmaster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, for one, Magneto players have placed high at both SHGL
> > tourneys
> > > > and at B4.
> > >
> > > Where no one mashed out of his tempest combos for some stupid
reason.
> >
> > Dude, I am a monster masher. I could shake out of Red Venom's Punch
> > throw about 90% of the time. I can shake out of Magneto's Combo
maybe
> > 25% of the time. If you can do it 100%, then kudos to you. What's
your
> > secret? I got blisters on my hand from trying to mash out of
Magneto
> > combos one day and it pretty much ruined my sex life for about a
week=P
>
> First, from what I heard, at B4 pretty much no one remembered to even
try to
> mash out of the tempest. I can mash out of the tempest combo close to
100%
> of the time. My secret is pressing all of the buttons rapidly.
Actually, Choc, this isn't true....most of the players (who were decent
and played against GOOD Magneto players) at B4 were trying to mash out
of hypergrav combos, to no avail. Hell, when I was playing against
Image (this was 7 games) and he did the hypergrav combos to me (must
have been at least 4-5 times) I tried to mash EVERY time. And I only
got out of the combo ONCE. That's a pretty poor success rate, if you
ask me...
Maybe there is some secret (controlled mashing of some sort) to get out
of the hypergrav/tempest combos. There have been suggestions that
something like this exists (Image supposedly knows how to get out of
hypergrav combos with a 90% success rate, but I haven't seen it.) Until
the majority of the -good- players start shaking out of these combos
successfully (~70% and up) I think it's still safe to say that Mags is
top tier.
At worst, even if ppl do start shaking out of his combos, he would be
moved down to the bottom of Tier 2, or the top of Tier 3.
Sabin
sol...@midway.uchicago.edu (sol t kim) wrote:
> Hey people, this is just a request for the general tips on playing
> Spiral. Feel free to jump in and share the infos and techs.
Sure, no prob.
>
> Agreed. Her teleport is the best in the game, and her knives are
possibly
> the best non-super projectile in the game as well (guesses on the best
> projectile super, anybody?)
>
Her teleport is the best in the game no doubt, but you should be aware
that it has a couple of frames of recovery when she comes in...like,
maybe two frames before you can start blocking. This is one of the main
reasons why she can't just keep teleporting out of Strider/Doom traps,
for example...or why you get hit when you teleport too early into
Storm's Hail Storm.
> This is my question. I just started picking up Spiral, and all I
manage
> to do so far is to just endless knives, teleports, build meter and
switch
> out (to Cable/Strider/whoever). Can anyone post tactics/comboes that
do
> sizable damage with her, as well as helpers that go well with her?
Tricks
> with her Metamorphosis super doesn't seem to work after a few times.
Ways
> to deal with pixie rush/tricks&ticks, ect. are also appreciated.
Spiral only has two moves for the most part. Swords and teleports. Most
of the time, you won't be using her level 3 (unless you launch tme, and
even then, you have to have swords activated) or you see a OBVIOUS
opening (for example, you just teleported out of Cable AHVB and they
can't teleport.)
The main goal with Spiral is not to do hard hitting combos - that's not
her main asset. It's to chip and annoy people to death (and to build
meter at the same time).
If you want to have a good Spiral, you need to find a sword trap that
builds hella meter, is safe, and is hard to super jump out of. At B4,
Duc was basically doing sword activation, normal jump, throw 3 swords
in the air, call cable helper (this was Viper Beam) and reload.
I play Spiral pretty hardcore (I used her at SJG,) but my pattern was
nowhere as good as Duc's, solely because I was rushing with my sword
traps instead of jumping away and throwing swords. That left me
susceptible to certain AAA's (Cammy/Cyke) which is why I stopped
playing her for a while..
Anyway, here are some bread + butter combos with her (she doesn't have
that much)
her most powerful normal combo is sword activation, launch, short fwd
big sword circle, into Spiral Buster x2. The second Spiral buster is
hard to do, since it puts you in a awkward position.
her most powerful super combo to date is the one i just listed above,
instead of doing Spiral Buster., just do metamorphisis after sword
circle and grab them...It's not a guaranteed combo (you can jab out of
it when she tries to grab you) but it will connect 90% of the time at
least.
>
> Also, what is this 'issues in her game' that keep her from being #1?
As I
> see it, she can deal with most of the top tiers (Doom/Cable/Sentinel),
> beat up the pixies (teleport away and knives, repeat). That seems
like a
> darn respective #1 prospective to me..
Why is she not #1? Hmm...
For one thing, she has horrible supers and DHC's. Sword super is nearly
useless and not safe if you're DHC'ing into her, powerup super doesn't
hurt enough, and speedup super is useless (for the most part) in
tourney play (mostly because you can't grab while she's sped up, unlike
Wolvie in MSF.
Also, she has a fairly large amount of startup on her sword
activation...most people don't know this, but she has more startup than
she seems to have. If she doesn't have the proper AAA (Cyclops for
example) you can literally rush her to death..she only has average
priority versus most chars (low fierce is her highest priority move on
the ground.) So basically, if you don't have a high priority AAA, she
can be rushed to death for the most part. Teleporting doesn't help
either...she still can't activate swords from that position.
That's one of the main reasons why I don't like picking Spiral against
a Strider/Doom or a Doom/BH team.
By the way, she has a very hard time fighting Sentinel ...mostly
because of his super armor (you can fierce through swords and hit her)
and the fact that she just doesn't hurt him enough.
Vs. Spiral, it's always good to have a strong projectile assist that
goes through all her swords...like Ice Beam for example.
Hope this helps.
Peter Mouko Nguyen
>
can't do it on stormy, doom yeah and sent yeah
>How many opponents do you go through before someone pick BH or
>Commando?
BH is slow for it he's evadable (though if they time it right, Sim can get
smacked down) , Commando I have evaded before, but he's probably the most
trouble I have (helper wise) when I try to do it.
~Miggity Mouko~
Chocobo
Image told me that almost no one tried to mash out of the tempest.
> Maybe there is some secret (controlled mashing of some sort) to get out
> of the hypergrav/tempest combos. There have been suggestions that
> something like this exists (Image supposedly knows how to get out of
> hypergrav combos with a 90% success rate, but I haven't seen it.) Until
> the majority of the -good- players start shaking out of these combos
> successfully (~70% and up) I think it's still safe to say that Mags is
> top tier.
I don't know if you're just unlucky or what, but you just cannot include
those tempest combos as a strength for Magneto when counting overall
rankings. It is definitely possible to mash out over 90% of the time,
because I can do it and so can people I've played against. The tempest is
always a waste of meter.
> At worst, even if ppl do start shaking out of his combos, he would be
> moved down to the bottom of Tier 2, or the top of Tier 3.
Which is where he belongs.
Trako
>Shuma
>Spiderman
>Marrow
>Chun Li
>Kobun
>Zangief
>Dan
>Roll
No way does Spidey belong this low in the tiers. I'd say middle tier. People
at my arcade have learned to play Spidey pretty good. He can combo all his
supers, has good combos, and good speed. Nothing great to rival top characters
but definitly belongs in the middle tiers.
Trako
sol t kim
In article <8mc6kp$7v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sabin <ai...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>In article <gE1i5.48$x3.508@uchinews>,
>> Also, what is this 'issues in her game' that keep her from being #1?
>As I
>> see it, she can deal with most of the top tiers (Doom/Cable/Sentinel),
>> beat up the pixies (teleport away and knives, repeat). That seems
>like a
>> darn respective #1 prospective to me..
>
>Why is she not #1? Hmm...
>
>For one thing, she has horrible supers and DHC's. Sword super is nearly
>useless and not safe if you're DHC'ing into her, powerup super doesn't
>hurt enough, and speedup super is useless (for the most part) in
>tourney play (mostly because you can't grab while she's sped up, unlike
>Wolvie in MSF.
>
>Also, she has a fairly large amount of startup on her sword
>activation...most people don't know this, but she has more startup than
>she seems to have. If she doesn't have the proper AAA (Cyclops for
>example) you can literally rush her to death..she only has average
>priority versus most chars (low fierce is her highest priority move on
>the ground.) So basically, if you don't have a high priority AAA, she
>can be rushed to death for the most part. Teleporting doesn't help
>either...she still can't activate swords from that position.
>
>That's one of the main reasons why I don't like picking Spiral against
>a Strider/Doom or a Doom/BH team.
One thing I noticed was that see seems to have bigger hit frames than she
seems...I defenitely agree with you on that she needs a good close range
AAA (not Capcom or blackheart). Another thing being that her sword circle
does not seem to be instant, either as I have been jumped kicked out of it
on a few occasions.
>By the way, she has a very hard time fighting Sentinel ...mostly
>because of his super armor (you can fierce through swords and hit her)
>and the fact that she just doesn't hurt him enough.
I think Sentinel just hurts Spiral, either on or off the screen. His
ground assist will come out regardless of the presense of your flying
swords, do lots of chip damage, and just fill up the screen with crap in
general. I think Capcom/blackhear assist, when used well, can also be
efficient against her, as they tend to hit her out of activation/teleport
recovery.
>Vs. Spiral, it's always good to have a strong projectile assist that
>goes through all her swords...like Ice Beam for example.
The question is, in what team does she belong? She is good, but she seems
to have problems mixing with other characters. She does not have a
definitive assist such as doom/BH, Cable/Cyclops, Strider/Doom. It seems
that she defenitely needs AAA, so maybe Spiral/Cammy?
--
Trako
means.-
Trako
tortoise
American Automobile Association or
Anti-air Assist. Depends on the context :)
Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu
"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."