Topic 3: What can save Street Fighter?

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JaeMasaki

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Feb 25, 2002, 5:33:23 PM2/25/02
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Getting a pretty good turnout for these topics...even though I hope not to
run out of subjects, plus I'd like to see more input. :-)

Well, time for this week's. I want your opinions on what you feel could
save the SF series. Everyone has their own personal favorite SF, and it
seems to be a debate between mainly SSF2T and SFA2. I remember a few years
back that Japan voted SFA2 as the best SF ever, and I definitely agree. My
only complaint about it was the CCs, but those weren't really that effective
or reliable.

Almost every SF that came after A2, complaints started coming by the
numbers:

SFIII's - no air blocking
- only having one super per match
- of course, parries that seemed to prioritize the game, where a
person could actually parry
an entire super, or could just parry, then attack the entire
match and actually win.

SFA3 - the music (okay, this one was minor)
- The ISMs. Granted, I think this was a good idea, but majority
of others feel that choosing
certain ISMs gave an advantage to others...a person who chooses
X or A-ISM has a
MUCH better chance to win over a person who chooses V-ISM, and
some say the same
for A over X-ISM...this one is still debatable.
- the entire juggling system. As much as "true" SF fans don't
care for the crossovers,
Capcom chooses to incorporate that into a SF game. True, you
can flip out of a juggle, but
sometimes, no matter what you do, you are forced to take the hit
from usually a super.

I know there are more that I didn't mention, but these are the ones that
stand out as the most complained about. Also, as for SFIII, I feel that
Third Strike was a bit more balanced, but still, just still didn't have that
"thing" that made us love SF. I just want everyone's opinion on what they
feel can save SF, if a SFA4, or SF4 is to come? Do you think Capcom can't
bring life back to the SF series? If so, then why has the Darkstalkers
series gotten better with each sequel, as well as the crossovers seemingly
getting better with every progression, except for maybe MvC2? Let the
debate and ideas flow. C-ya. ^_^


Imad

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 6:27:08 PM2/25/02
to
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:33:23 GMT
"JaeMasaki" <Tenchi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Getting a pretty good turnout for these topics...even though I hope
> not to run out of subjects, plus I'd like to see more input. :-)

Wha? Topics? Turnout? Where? ;)



> Well, time for this week's. I want your opinions on what you feel
> could save the SF series. Everyone has their own personal favorite SF,
> and it seems to be a debate between mainly SSF2T and SFA2.

There are plenty that claim that SF2 HF was the best, and for good
reason. But let's not get into that right now.

> I remember
> a few years back that Japan voted SFA2 as the best SF ever,

What, everyone in the entire nation voted on this or something?

> and I
> definitely agree. My only complaint about it was the CCs, but those
> weren't really that effective or reliable.

*cough* Valle CCs *cough*

That said, HF and A2 are my fave SFs (CvS is up there, too, but it's not
just an SF game).

> Almost every SF that came after A2, complaints started coming by the
> numbers:
>
> SFIII's - no air blocking
> - only having one super per match
> - of course, parries that seemed to prioritize the game,
> where a person could actually parry
> an entire super, or could just parry, then attack the
> entire match and actually win.

The parries were the big thing here -- they were too powerful, and this
wasn't fixed in the rest of the series. Sure, Capcom made them a bit
harder to do in 3S, but they made them even more gamebreaking than
before. Argh!


>
> SFA3 - the music (okay, this one was minor)
> - The ISMs. Granted, I think this was a good idea, but
> majority of others feel that choosing
> certain ISMs gave an advantage to others...a person who
> chooses X or A-ISM has a
> MUCH better chance to win over a person who chooses
> V-ISM, and some say the same
> for A over X-ISM...this one is still debatable.

Wait a sec -- V-ISM pretty much ruled A3. Blow through a super, do 75%
damage. Heck, even chip VCs did too much damage and could easily guard
crush.

<SNIP>

> I just want everyone's
> opinion on what they feel can save SF, if a SFA4, or SF4 is to come?
> Do you think Capcom can't bring life back to the SF series?

I don't think we'll ever see SF get as big as it was in the WW/HF days
-- the arcade scene is all but dead, and so few people appreciate any
depth in fighters. The only way Capcom can "save" the series is make it
fully polygonal and add lots more T&A -- i.e., turn it into a DoA clone,
gameplay be screwed. Of course the SF fans will hate it, but they hate
every SF since ST anyway. ;)

Seriously, there are a lot of good concepts that Capcom has come up with
over the years, but they've forgotten what made HF so good -- evolution
rather than revolution. Take the best of the past and polish it, rather
than trying to come up with innovative new systems (V-ism, CCs, chain
combos, parries, red parries, etc.). Give us new characters, high
resolution, smooth graphics, and the like if you must, but keep the
underlying layer of good, proven SF. CvS1 & 2 did this to a certain
degree, but were both marred by other problems (CvS 1's four button
layout and split characters, CvS 2's weakened characters and too-large
roster).

> If so,
> then why has the Darkstalkers series gotten better with each sequel,
> as well as the crossovers seemingly getting better with every
> progression, except for maybe MvC2? Let the debate and ideas flow.

Many would claim that Vampire Hunter was the best Vampire game. Few
would claim MvC was the best Marvel game (MSH, XvSF, and MvC2 are the
most popular there). Of course, I prefer VS and MvSF myself, but that's
just me. Go figure. =)

--
Best,
Imad Hussain
+========== GBAfan Editor in Chief == http://www.gbafan.net ==========+
+===== OpenBSD. Functional. Secure. Free. http://www.openbsd.org =====+

kelvSYC

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 10:43:01 PM2/25/02
to
> > Well, time for this week's. I want your opinions on what you feel
> > could save the SF series. Everyone has their own personal favorite SF,
> > and it seems to be a debate between mainly SSF2T and SFA2.
>
> There are plenty that claim that SF2 HF was the best, and for good
> reason. But let's not get into that right now.

And there are some who prefer old school SF1/2 and some with the newest
like MvC2, SFEX3, SFA3, SF33S, and CVS2

> > I remember
> > a few years back that Japan voted SFA2 as the best SF ever,
>
> What, everyone in the entire nation voted on this or something?

I, too, felt that Capcom had something going in A2, but lost momentum
in A3 (did A3 come before or after MvC2?). After all, A2 perhaps is
the most "classic feeling" of any Alpha game. If A3 had classic music
for all the characters (like perhaps FF music for Cody, new music for
R. Mika, Karin, Juli, and Juni, and remixed familiars for everyone
else) with/instead of the music they have now, and maybe have more
"classic feeling" stages with/instead of the stages they have now, A3
would be better.

> > and I
> > definitely agree. My only complaint about it was the CCs, but those
> > weren't really that effective or reliable.
>
> *cough* Valle CCs *cough*
>
> That said, HF and A2 are my fave SFs (CvS is up there, too, but it's not
> just an SF game).

CCs were the best! Beginners wouldn't have to stock up super bar for
no purpose, as they can waste it on CCs and do whatever they wanted,
and experts can use it to deal more damage than that of just wasting
three stocks of super on a single move. I guess that's part and parcel
to why CCs owned: the learning curve is not that great.

> > Almost every SF that came after A2, complaints started coming by the
> > numbers:

Actually: almost every SF that came after SF2CE did many have
complaints. First Chun-Li had no fireball, then the endless revisions,
the demand for SF3 to be in 3D, then with unfamiliar characters, crappy
polygon graphics, Capcom characters underpowered against Marvel or SNK
characters, etc.

> > SFA3 - the music (okay, this one was minor)
> > - The ISMs. Granted, I think this was a good idea, but
> > majority of others feel that choosing
> > certain ISMs gave an advantage to others...a person who
> > chooses X or A-ISM has a
> > MUCH better chance to win over a person who chooses
> > V-ISM, and some say the same
> > for A over X-ISM...this one is still debatable.
>
> Wait a sec -- V-ISM pretty much ruled A3. Blow through a super, do 75%
> damage. Heck, even chip VCs did too much damage and could easily guard
> crush.

You got that right. And the sucker was that the best ISM for beginners
in SFA3 was V-ISM, and not X-ISM like Capcom would make you think.

> > I just want everyone's opinion on what they feel can save SF, if a
> > SFA4, or SF4 is to come? Do you think Capcom can't bring life back
> > to the SF series?
>
> I don't think we'll ever see SF get as big as it was in the WW/HF days
> -- the arcade scene is all but dead, and so few people appreciate any
> depth in fighters. The only way Capcom can "save" the series is make it
> fully polygonal and add lots more T&A -- i.e., turn it into a DoA clone,
> gameplay be screwed. Of course the SF fans will hate it, but they hate
> every SF since ST anyway. ;)

Except A2, CvS2, and maybe for retro freaks, Classic/X-ISM in A3.

SFEX is going to la-la-land, and Capcom had once said that A3(Z3^) and
SF33S would be the last in their series, rumors (more like BS) that an
MvC3 would be in the works, and many wish for a CvS3 (but are not
getting it unless the rumors of SvC for NGMVS are suddenly coming true,
and I can't believe someone passed off a "screenshot" of pre-KOF96 Ryo
Sakazaki in a different suit as "Ryu drawn by SNK")

> Seriously, there are a lot of good concepts that Capcom has come up with
> over the years, but they've forgotten what made HF so good -- evolution
> rather than revolution. Take the best of the past and polish it, rather
> than trying to come up with innovative new systems (V-ism, CCs, chain
> combos, parries, red parries, etc.). Give us new characters, high
> resolution, smooth graphics, and the like if you must, but keep the
> underlying layer of good, proven SF. CvS1 & 2 did this to a certain
> degree, but were both marred by other problems (CvS 1's four button
> layout and split characters, CvS 2's weakened characters and too-large
> roster).
>
> > If so,
> > then why has the Darkstalkers series gotten better with each sequel,
> > as well as the crossovers seemingly getting better with every
> > progression, except for maybe MvC2? Let the debate and ideas flow.
>
> Many would claim that Vampire Hunter was the best Vampire game.

Vampire Hunter or VH2?

> Few would claim MvC was the best Marvel game (MSH, XvSF, and MvC2 are
> the most popular there).

Yeah, MvC was bad compared to others. But it did have a tough
Onslaught and one coincidence that I never got with other VS games: I
picked two Capcom characters (Ryu and Strider) and all my opponents up
to Onslaught were either both Marvel characters or both Capcom
characters (including the Orange Hulk/Wolverine stage that I got). I
can't recall the opponent order, just that I faced Jin/Morrigan,
Spidey/Venom, Mega Man/Chun-Li, Zangief/CapCom, CapAm/War Machine,
Wolvie/Gambit, and Strider/Ryu (the reverse of my team, which is the
only game that I drew the reverse of my team with).

---

I think the only way is to bring back the old-school feel in SF4 (an
old-school 2D game) or a new 3D SF series (kind of like FFWA in the
fact that it's retelling the original SF story in 3D, but with extra
characters) based on the RS game engine.

My wish list for either a new 3DSF or SF4 (or even a SF vs.
Darkstalkers type game):

- Random Playing Style. If you have random characters, why not this?
And make different health/guard/super/whatever bars based on the
playing style instead of minor tweaks, like one that plays more like
the later Vampire games and have one life drained whenever their health
empies, for instance.
- Reunite all the old characters, all redrawn. That's a drawback to
Alphas, MvCs, and CvSNKs alike. It makes up for all that lost space.
Even better: make the game 2D but using 3D graphics to render the
characters.
- More modes of play. Sure, survival and dramatic are fun... for a
little while, how about a built-in tourney feature, tag feature, ratio
feature, etc. for home versions? (I can picture a 3-on-3 tag with 8
buttons for the PS2)
- Bring back the old school alongside something new. One of the big
turnoffs for me in A3 was that the character voices was old, the music
was different and unfamiliar, and the backgrounds are not homages to
the good-old days when SF2 was king. You can keep the new stuff, but
there should be a way to get to the oldies but goldies too.
- No camera angle changes if making a 3D game. It makes SF more unique
and pays tribute to the old ways. After all, it is said that 2D will
never die...

--
I am just a statistical abberation. I do not exist.

8MegsOnly

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 4:27:47 AM2/27/02
to
You forgot to mention the lame announcers for SFA3, MvC2, CvS2.

Bring back the World Warrior announcer I say.


John Hayes

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 7:07:34 AM2/27/02
to

"kelvSYC" <kel...@no.email.shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:250220022042593416%kel...@no.email.shaw.ca...

> > > Well, time for this week's. I want your opinions on what you feel
> > > could save the SF series. Everyone has their own personal favorite SF,
> > > and it seems to be a debate between mainly SSF2T and SFA2.
> >
> > There are plenty that claim that SF2 HF was the best, and for good
> > reason. But let's not get into that right now.
>
> And there are some who prefer old school SF1/2 and some with the newest
> like MvC2, SFEX3, SFA3, SF33S, and CVS2
>

All right I call you on that first line. I have been reading (and posting a
teeny bit) this NG since 1993 and have never seen anyone claim they think
SF1 was the best. Some people do like SF2 (assuming you mean WW) purely out
of nostalgia/being different. I do remember quite a few people liking MvC2.
It had quite a good rate of discussion while everyone was figuring stuff
out.

> > > I remember
> > > a few years back that Japan voted SFA2 as the best SF ever,
> >
> > What, everyone in the entire nation voted on this or something?
>
> I, too, felt that Capcom had something going in A2, but lost momentum
> in A3 (did A3 come before or after MvC2?). After all, A2 perhaps is
> the most "classic feeling" of any Alpha game. If A3 had classic music
> for all the characters (like perhaps FF music for Cody, new music for
> R. Mika, Karin, Juli, and Juni, and remixed familiars for everyone
> else) with/instead of the music they have now, and maybe have more
> "classic feeling" stages with/instead of the stages they have now, A3
> would be better.
>

Yes, this is how I feel about the games as a whole. They need a "timeless"
or "classic" art style and music as well. I mean to say that while the art
style introduced and used since SFA1 is very good the art of SF2(WW through
ST) seemed more "adult" (in this gaijins eyes.) While I can recognise and
name everyones tunes from Super Turbo, I can not say the same for pretty
much any game since. Except for MSH.

> > > and I
> > > definitely agree. My only complaint about it was the CCs, but those
> > > weren't really that effective or reliable.
> >
> > *cough* Valle CCs *cough*
> >
> > That said, HF and A2 are my fave SFs (CvS is up there, too, but it's not
> > just an SF game).
>
> CCs were the best! Beginners wouldn't have to stock up super bar for
> no purpose, as they can waste it on CCs and do whatever they wanted,
> and experts can use it to deal more damage than that of just wasting
> three stocks of super on a single move. I guess that's part and parcel
> to why CCs owned: the learning curve is not that great.
>
> > > Almost every SF that came after A2, complaints started coming by the
> > > numbers:
>
> Actually: almost every SF that came after SF2CE did many have
> complaints. First Chun-Li had no fireball, then the endless revisions,
> the demand for SF3 to be in 3D, then with unfamiliar characters, crappy
> polygon graphics, Capcom characters underpowered against Marvel or SNK
> characters, etc.
>

Chun Li got her fireball in HF. I think the "endless revisions" feeling
only came along whith SSF2, as the backwards speed step and lack of features
found in other currently popular games (Supers mostly) seemed to make people
very bitter. Not to mention Super screwed up Guile's voice who, for
whatever reasons, was massively popular (at least around here, SF Bay Area).
That stigma of one "sub par" release (a release featuring tons of new music
and four new characters no less) has haunted them for quite a while.

> > > SFA3 - the music (okay, this one was minor)
> > > - The ISMs. Granted, I think this was a good idea, but
> > > majority of others feel that choosing
> > > certain ISMs gave an advantage to others...a person who
> > > chooses X or A-ISM has a
> > > MUCH better chance to win over a person who chooses
> > > V-ISM, and some say the same
> > > for A over X-ISM...this one is still debatable.
> >
> > Wait a sec -- V-ISM pretty much ruled A3. Blow through a super, do 75%
> > damage. Heck, even chip VCs did too much damage and could easily guard
> > crush.
>
> You got that right. And the sucker was that the best ISM for beginners
> in SFA3 was V-ISM, and not X-ISM like Capcom would make you think.
>
> > > I just want everyone's opinion on what they feel can save SF, if a
> > > SFA4, or SF4 is to come? Do you think Capcom can't bring life back
> > > to the SF series?
> >
> > I don't think we'll ever see SF get as big as it was in the WW/HF days
> > -- the arcade scene is all but dead, and so few people appreciate any
> > depth in fighters. The only way Capcom can "save" the series is make it
> > fully polygonal and add lots more T&A -- i.e., turn it into a DoA clone,
> > gameplay be screwed. Of course the SF fans will hate it, but they hate
> > every SF since ST anyway. ;)
>
> Except A2, CvS2, and maybe for retro freaks, Classic/X-ISM in A3.
>

I've often wondered why there was never any "ism" tournaments where everyone
was limited to "just x-ism" or "just a-ism". Seems simple enough.

One thing I always felt was that the limitations of older hardware brought
out the best in the programmers. Now they can just record whatever they
want and throw it on the CD sitting inside the cabinet for music for
example.

Another thing is that, if you really want to save Street Fighter (or the
arcades or whatever, depending on how broad you want the scope to be) you
will need to "let it go." No matter what it will need to be popular with a
whole new generation in order to be REALLY popular again.


Forge

unread,
Mar 2, 2002, 5:19:33 AM3/2/02
to
CvS2's Roster too big?
MvC2's Roster was bigger

I personally think the roster is small if anything Key characters such as
Guy, Andy Bogard, Robert and Adon are missing...

A good suggestion is to declutter the select screen tho, and to do this I
guess they'd have to implement some kind of grouping technique...

PS: I agree with you about VS (but then I've never played VH) and MvSF

And about turning it into a DoA clone thats about the worst thing they could
do.. First of all it would be unoriginal, Tekken and DoA have been there
done that, Second, there was an EX series (that seems to have gained far to
little support) in case you didn't notice...

And I guess theres a third and fourth but I can't think of them right now
:)... Capcom has done brilliantly with almost all its fighting games (SF3
would probably be my least accepted vers, but by 3S it was nice enough to be
quite playable). I commend them for their performance thus far and only
hope the future will be as bright...

"Imad" <mag...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:20020225182708....@purdue.edu...

Forge

unread,
Mar 2, 2002, 5:27:55 AM3/2/02
to
Believe it or not but even after SF2 and all its incarnations I DO know
someone who prefers SF1!

And I aren't the only one who personally played Super Street Fighter II just
BECAUSE it was such a NICE game in so many ways.
Sure the speed was slower but the skill level was nice and the game played
brilliantly and the graphic update was brilliant. I don't know if
statistically it turned out a flop but I know that it was enough of a
challenge as it was, and I for one, preferred that over Super Turbo (which I
could only ever beat using E. Honda)... (Super Turbo cost me too much money,
at least the Arcade version did)

About the Saving idea? Capcom is one of the comanies *Enhancing* Video
Arcade centres across the world, very little effort elsewhere is being put
into that..

If Video killed the Radio Star, Console killed the Arcade Coin-ops!

"John Hayes" <jp_h...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:a_3f8.14519$Tf1.356...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

White Sword

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Mar 2, 2002, 3:20:27 PM3/2/02
to
Street Fighter doesn't need saving you spoony bard, simply saying that it does is BLASPHEMY against the teachings of Capcomism!
 
All SF needs is MORE SEQUELS!
 
 
-White Sword of The Burning Fist

John Hayes

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Mar 2, 2002, 6:22:05 PM3/2/02
to
Who are you talking to?

>"White Sword" <white...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fuag8.29216$ZC3.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

pth

unread,
Mar 3, 2002, 9:24:57 PM3/3/02
to
High res 2D...that is first and foremost. I enjoy MVC2 and CVS's bgs, but
Guilty Gear put them all to shame. MUST have newly drawn (seriously, we've
seen the same sprites for like 7 years now), high res.

Keep the bgs as they have been. I really enjoy the desert one from CVS2.

I think the ISMs of A3 and the ratio/groove system of CVS2 are good. It
gives more depth with the same characters. I never had much of a problem w/
large rosters...I never pick SNK characters anyways. :)

Seriously though...20 well developed characters and some sort of ISM/Groove
system would give a killer depth. Got high res sprites, good BGs and some
nice effects (CVS2 is pretty sweet in that dept).

Capcom CAN do it w/out going 3D....EX series was fun, but come on, if you're
gonna do 3D, do it right!

Just my $.02...from a gamer who LUVS his SF first and foremost!

-slateman.
www.planettonyhawk.com
www.godflesh.com


"Forge" <forg...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in
news:LO1g8.1774$aG5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

Kayla

unread,
Mar 15, 2002, 8:35:28 PM3/15/02
to
I think 3rd Strike without the parries, and a chun-li priority reduction
would be the "perfect" SF game.

Kayla.

"JaeMasaki" <Tenchi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:TYye8.8196$FE4.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...


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