My Friend looks exactly like Chun li
Mugen92
My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
Raymond Rowe
I knew a stripper that looked exactly like Chun Li, complete a big chest
and buff legs.
Dark Knight
On 30 Jan 1997 08:04:59 GMT, mug...@aol.com (Mugen92) wrote:
>My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
>115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
>Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
Which Chun Li? SF2's? SF2HP's? SSF2T's (the prettiest IMHO)? or
Alpha's? They all look different
Seav Chang
Well well..If its true...tell her to call me or better yet email me! I
look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
THe LIVING, BREATHING RYO SAEBA of
CITYHUNTER FAME!! ja matane!
Dllem
>My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
>115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
>Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
got any naked pictures of her? Wanna see some?
Jeremy Balsley
Seav Chang <snc...@taurus.oac.uci.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.970131...@taurus.oac.uci.edu>...
> Well well..If its true...tell her to call me or better yet email me! I
> look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
> life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
> guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
>
> THe LIVING, BREATHING RYO SAEBA of
> CITYHUNTER FAME!! ja matane!
>
> On 30 Jan 1997, Mugen92 wrote:
>
> > 115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as
Chun's.
> > Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
> >
Me thinks this gentleman needs a life...you select a girlfriend based on
whether or not she looks like Chun Li?
I like Street Fighter and all, but ... news for you, bub. The Chunster is
an ANIMATED CHARACTER.
(Not to mention looking at said animation, and seeing legs as big around as
her waist!)
Milo D. Cooper
> Loser number two wrote:
>> Loser number one wrote:
>>
>> My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
>> 115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
>> Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
>
> look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
> life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
> guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
You're lying, it's clear. Ryu has never looked Asian.
--
/|___Milo D. Cooper___|\
\| mdco...@cts.com |/
Martin Bennett
mug...@aol.com (Mugen92) wrote:
>My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
>115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
>Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
We REALLY don't need this, but... Thanks for sharing... (Why?)
--
SAKURASAKURASAKURASAKURASAKURASAKURASAKURASAK
A U
S P-word. Raving Sakura-holic at Large. R
A A
R SF2 Code v2.0: S
U t, A -> A-, C -> C+, c -> c+, T, -r+@r-, A
K f, g, m+ -> m++ -> m?, s, v+, M+, n+: , K
A o+ -> -o+ U
SARUKASARUKASARUKASARUKASARUKASARUKASARUKASAR
PsychoKick
In article <32F40D...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>
>> Loser number two wrote:
>>> Loser number one wrote:
>>>
>>> My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
>>> 115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
>>> Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
>>
>> look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
>> life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
>> guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
>
> You're lying, it's clear. Ryu has never looked Asian.
Guile never looked Caucasian either. He looks sorta Cro-Magnon. ^_^
Check out the size of that brow!
Gotta love (hate?) anime styling...
--
-PsychoKick
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives,
but from people who become outcasts." -Toshio Okada
--
http://www.panix.com/~wyoon/
Still down for remodeling...
Milo D. Cooper
> PsychoKick wrote:
> In article <32F40D...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
> >
> >> Loser number two wrote:
> >>> Loser number one wrote:
> >>>
> >>> My girlfriend's friend looks exactly like Chun li. She's about 5'7 and
> >>> 115 lbs. She is pretty FINE! Her chest is not as big (B cup) as Chun's.
> >>> Her legs are not as buff either but are damn nice.
> >>
> >> Well well..If its true...tell her to call me or better yet email me! I
> >> look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
> >> life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
> >> guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
> >
> > You're lying, it's clear. Ryu has never looked Asian.
>
> Guile never looked Caucasian either. He looks sorta Cro-Magnon. ^_^
> Check out the size of that brow!
> Gotta love (hate?) anime styling...
Looks white to me, just like everyone else in Street Fighter who
isn't black, beastly, Dhalsim, or Fei Long. No, wait, Chun looks
somewhat like a mulatto in the Alphas. (P.S. to all dorks: don't go
rummaging through lists of SF characters just to see if I'm right.
Get a life, instead.)
Martin Bennett
Seav Chang <snc...@taurus.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>Well well..If its true...tell her to call me or better yet email me! I
>look like RYU..but i'm not a loser like him. Looks like I found my real
>life match after all!! Tell me more about her!! Tell her a Handsome asian
>guy is interested in her if she is all that and more!! thanks
>
> CITYHUNTER FAME!! ja matane!
Hey! There are winged monkeys flying out of your butt, too!
Seav Chang
Hello MIloster!! I disagree with you about Ryu looking other than asian.
What does he look like then??? I'm sure everything to you is black and
white, but this is not the case. If you studied japan's history and
geography, you'll notice that japan is made up of little islands + the
mainland. These little islands contained japanese/asian ppl's who look
like europeans except for their hair color and some facial feautures that
are unique to asians. Some have speculated that that is where the first
europeans came from, but recently it has been dissproven. Just because an
asian has european feautures doesn't necessarily mean they are mixed nor
does it mean that they are the origins of europeans. Anyways more to the
point, I do have some...what ppl term european(exclusively) traits which i
disagree on because a trait does NOT belong to a certain "race" rather it
is variable within each "race". If you went to COLLEGE and took some
anthropological/asian/european history classes...you would know. I am not
suggesting that you are uneducated, but rather that you are ignorant of
the fact that there are some genetic "variabilities" in what we call
categorically, the "races". Well if you saw me...you'll definitely say
that I am of European or mixed decent, but no matter what...the fact of
the matter is that I am 100% chinese, and that I look like Ryu. Enough
said..have a good day and look around you.
The living, breathing Ryo Saeba of
CityHunter fame, ja matane!!
> > > You're lying, it's clear. Ryu has never looked Asian.
>
cclayton
Many months before this thread started I noticed that almost every mug shot
in Alpha 1 looked oriental. Maybe they are just all squinting.
Ferral <fWo>
> Many months before this thread started I noticed that almost every mug shot
> in Alpha 1 looked oriental. Maybe they are just all squinting.
Could it be that...maybe...just maybe...the game was designed by
Japanese programmers and artists schooled in an anime style of drawing?
Just because a video game character doesn't look like the stereotypical,
racist conception of what orientals look like doesn't mean they aren't
oriental. How many japanese animes have characters with non-mainstream
colored hair? Some of those colors sure as hell aren't found in nature!
Hmmm...except now the fad in japan is young japanese with anime hair...for
real. They dye their hair because it's part of the popular fad. So now
they can't understand why they can't get jobs when their hair is purple,
fuche or blue colored. Go figure.
<<This message has been paid for by the fERRAL wORLD oRDER>>
----------
Ferral
High Priest of Sekhmet
No BAD RELIGION song can make your life complete...
fer...@scsn.com
----------
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Milo D. Cooper
Seav Chang wrote:
>
> Hello MIloster!! I disagree with you about Ryu looking other than asian.
> What does he look like then??? I'm sure everything to you is black and
> white, but this is not the case. If you studied japan's history and
> geography, you'll notice that japan is made up of little islands + the
> mainland. These little islands contained japanese/asian ppl's who look
> like europeans except for their hair color and some facial feautures that
> are unique to asians. Some have speculated that that is where the first
> europeans came from, but recently it has been dissproven. Just because an
> asian has european feautures doesn't necessarily mean they are mixed nor
> does it mean that they are the origins of europeans. Anyways more to the
> point, I do have some...what ppl term european(exclusively) traits which i
> disagree on because a trait does NOT belong to a certain "race" rather it
> is variable within each "race". If you went to COLLEGE and took some
> anthropological/asian/european history classes...you would know. I am not
> suggesting that you are uneducated, but rather that you are ignorant of
> the fact that there are some genetic "variabilities" in what we call
> categorically, the "races". Well if you saw me...you'll definitely say
> that I am of European or mixed decent, but no matter what...the fact of
> the matter is that I am 100% chinese, and that I look like Ryu. Enough
> said..have a good day and look around you.
Thank you, I have. I don't know about you (since you seem
to be out of your mind, in general), but I'd find it strangely
inconsistent of Capcom to depict black people and white people
in typical fashions, while depicting Asian characters with ref-
erence to real Asians with predominantly European facial fea-
tures. In other words, Dee Jay and Balrog look typically
black, and Ken and Cammy look typically white (or Rolento and
Cammy, for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese
guy with dyed hair), so why wouldn't the Japanese and Chinese
characters look typically Asian? Just admit that anime artists
generally like to portray Asians occidentally.
Martin Bennett
Seav Chang <snc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>Hello MIloster!! I disagree with you about Ryu looking other than asian.
>What does he look like then??? I'm sure everything to you is black and
>white, but this is not the case. If you studied japan's history and
>geography, you'll notice that japan is made up of little islands + the
>mainland. These little islands contained japanese/asian ppl's who look
>like europeans except for their hair color and some facial feautures that
>are unique to asians. Some have speculated that that is where the first
>europeans came from, but recently it has been dissproven. Just because an
>asian has european feautures doesn't necessarily mean they are mixed nor
>does it mean that they are the origins of europeans. Anyways more to the
>point, I do have some...what ppl term european(exclusively) traits which i
>disagree on because a trait does NOT belong to a certain "race" rather it
>is variable within each "race". If you went to COLLEGE and took some
>anthropological/asian/european history classes...you would know. I am not
>suggesting that you are uneducated, but rather that you are ignorant of
>the fact that there are some genetic "variabilities" in what we call
>categorically, the "races". Well if you saw me...you'll definitely say
>that I am of European or mixed decent, but no matter what...the fact of
>the matter is that I am 100% chinese, and that I look like Ryu. Enough
>said..have a good day and look around you.
>
> CityHunter fame, ja matane!!
Oh, well... At least you're a little more coherant this time.
As to the racial make up of Ryu, one would suggest that based on his name
alone, he's at least part Japanese. If one chooses to put any stock in the
Streetfighter RPG by White Wolf, it says that Ryu's mother is Japanese and
his father is German. I don't know if this is right either, but Ryu has
never looked terribly Japanese to me... His eyes are fairly asian, but he's
got brown hair, which is NOT common among the Japanese (in particular). He
looks like he's part asian and part caucasian to me. Of course that's just
my interpretation of things...
PsychoKick
In article <32F7A6...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
> Thank you, I have. I don't know about you (since you seem
>to be out of your mind, in general), but I'd find it strangely
>inconsistent of Capcom to depict black people and white people
>in typical fashions, while depicting Asian characters with ref-
>erence to real Asians with predominantly European facial fea-
>tures. In other words, Dee Jay and Balrog look typically
>black, and Ken and Cammy look typically white (or Rolento and
>Cammy, for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese
>guy with dyed hair), so why wouldn't the Japanese and Chinese
>characters look typically Asian? Just admit that anime artists
>generally like to portray Asians occidentally.
Actually, no. Anime artists like to portray Asians iconically. Fact of
the matter is, every race tends to draw their own race iconically, and every
other race realistically, or with distinguishing, non-iconic characteristics.
Iconic, simplified representation is more psychologically familiar than a
realistic representation.
Let me tell you an anecdote. I grew up in a predominantely Asian
environment, and whenever I watched anime cartoons like Voltron or Robotech I
assumed that the characters were Asian. In fact, the less anime-esque a
character looked, the more non-Asian it seemed to me. My friends who grew up in
predominantely Caucasian environments insisted that the anime characters looked
Caucasian. Native Japanese people who I've brought this issue up with were
surprised that people would think that anime characters were anything but
Japanese unless otherwise specified.
Point is, cartooning is a very minimalist style, especially the
Japanese way of cartooning. By adding more details in a cartoon, you alienate
the character more and more. Notice that the anime style tends to have VERY
simple faces with round heads and large eyes. This is to breed psychological
familiarity through simplicity and a child-like look (maybe not child-like, but
the large eyes create an honest impression). To show a character is
"not-normal" or "different", you would use a more realistic depiction, or add
details that violate the familiarity. Note in SSF2T how Ryu is drawn very
differently from Chun Li or Fei Long, because Chun Li and Fei Long are Chinese
and not main characters, thus they are made to look "different", wheras Ryu is
Japanese and thus made to look "familar," or rather "neutral." Ken is American
BUT a main character, so he is drawn "neutral" as well. Guile is American and
NOT a main character, and thus is drawn as the stereotypical (from the Japanese
viewpoint) muscular rock-jawed soldier.
Another example, the anime cartoon Nadia. The main character Nadia is
supposed to be African or the equivalent. However, since she's supposed to be
the main character, she is drawn in the "neutral" style, with the only
distinguishing characteristic being dark skin. Also the anime "Fushigi Yuugi",
which takes place in a ancient China-like world. All main characters are done
in the neutral style regardless of whether they are Japanese or Chinese, wheras
non-main characters that are Chinese are drawn differently, and non-main
Japanese characters are still done neutral. Thing is, neutral looks familiar to
everyone, so everyone sees it as their own native race unless the skin color
is entirely off. This is also consistent with the fact that the Japanese don't
have much racial mixing in their culture and might not consciously realize how
racially ambiguous their anime styling is, at least when it comes to main
characters and Japanese. And the screwy eye and hair colors don't help much
either... red eyes and blue hair? (actually, I have another theory on hair
color, but I'll let it pass for now...)
Okay, okay, this post has gone on long enough. Sorry to take so much
bandwidth, but this is something that pops up way too much in the anime
newsgroups and I'm kinda annoyed at it, especially when people start pulling
off the old "all the Japanese are racist pigs" routine (no, I'm not saying
anyone here has said that, just that I don't want this thread to degrade in
that direction as these threads are prone to do). You can call my idea garbage
if you want, but these are my two tokens.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
Gyumaoh
>> for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese guy with dyed
hair
Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
Visit the Official Prison Planet 3 Web Site!
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/1343/
Scott McLaughlin
In article <5d77km$9...@news3.realtime.net>, gun...@bga.com (cclayton) wrote:
>Many months before this thread started I noticed that almost every mug shot
>in Alpha 1 looked oriental. Maybe they are just all squinting.
>
Remember the portraits that were on the SSF2T machines (on the joystick
cabinet). ALL of the characters looked VERY hispanic. I can still rember
Ryu's face, there was no way he looked asian in that drawing.
Ferral <fWo>
In article <5d9b76$g...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, scot...@ix.netcom.com
(Scott McLaughlin) wrote:
Oh please. The thing you have to realize the way japanese artist draw.
They draw figures that look japanese to japanese people, not necessarily
to non-asains. Think of all the anime and manga characters with oversized
eyes and multicolored hair. You won't see any animes called "Ryu, the
migrant worker"
<<This message has been paid for by the fERRAL wORLD oRDER>>
----------
Ferral
High Priest of Sekhmet
"What a way to go out...out like a sucka"
fer...@scsn.com
----------
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Kenichiro Tanaka
In article <19970205033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
gyu...@aol.com (Gyumaoh) wrote:
> >> for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese guy with dyed
> hair
>
> Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
Ken started out fully Japanese. Then, Capcom US started calling him "Ken
Masters" so they changed him into an American.
| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
Milo D. Cooper
> PsychoKick wrote:
Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
buying.
Ferral <fWo>
> Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
> buying.
> --
> /|___Milo D. Cooper___|\
> \| mdco...@cts.com |/
Seems like it's perfectly legit dude. And as far as japan worship I
didn't see anywhere him saying "Japan rules all you americans suck we will
buy up your country and sell it to McDonald's" Save the conspiracy theory
for the X-Files newsgroup. But in my opinion, Japanese chicks look a hell
of a lot better than american chicks, so there is my japanese worship for
the day.
PsychoKick
In article <32F9C5...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
> Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
>buying.
[Sarcasm mode on]
You have such a logical, reasoned response. You just are so right to
insult me when I haven't insulted you and merely stated my opinion. I bow
before your superior logic and mind. Teach me your ways, great Milo master of
all that is SF and beyond.
[Sarcasm mode off]
Really, did I give the impression of Japan worship? How so? If you care
to note, I mentioned that such iconic, simplified techniques are found in ALL
cartoons, not just Japanese. Take Ziggy, Blondie, G.I. Joe, Calvin and Hobbes,
etc etc etc.
Onaje U. Everett
Ferral <fWo> (fer...@scsn.net) wrote:
: > Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
: > buying.
: > --
: > \| mdco...@cts.com |/
: Seems like it's perfectly legit dude. And as far as japan worship I
: didn't see anywhere him saying "Japan rules all you americans suck we will
: buy up your country and sell it to McDonald's" Save the conspiracy theory
: for the X-Files newsgroup. But in my opinion, Japanese chicks look a hell
: of a lot better than american chicks, so there is my japanese worship for
: the day.
Why do I sense a little bit of bias? :)
There is no thing that is more beauteous than the sight of the
African-American queen.
See...I can say it, too, just substitute in my race, instead. :)
But anyways....
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Onaje Everett oeve...@mail.sdsu.edu for mail |
| oeve...@rohan.sdsu.edu for FAQ's, and data files |
| |
| Meaning- "The Sensitive One" Nicknames- "Fresh O.J.", "The Juice" |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I can do (not some) ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me." |
| -Phillipians 4:13 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Doug Erickson
"Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com> writes:
>> PsychoKick wrote:
[Damn, son, learn how to trim your bloody responses]
> Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
>buying.
So THIS is how the Amazing Milo "Pedantry and Zen" Cooper responds to
correction. Take note, fellow dorkwatchers: the plight of Pseudointellectualus
Americanus will continue in this delightful thread...
---
Douglas L. Erickson | Curiosity killed the cat/
dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu | Loathsome rituals brought it back.
Visit my Anime Art Gallery at: | - Revelation X
http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas | <My opinions remain unsponsored by ECN>
Milo D. Cooper
> Ferral wrote:
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>
>> buying.
>
> didn't see anywhere him saying "Japan rules all you americans suck we will
> buy up your country and sell it to McDonald's" Save the conspiracy theory
> for the X-Files newsgroup. But in my opinion, Japanese chicks look a hell
> of a lot better than american chicks, so there is my japanese worship for
> the day.
BA-hahahahahaha!! And just what, pray tell, is an "Amer-
ican chick"? White? Black? Hispanic? JAPANESE? This news-
group is a horrible wasteland. I don't know why I even bother
with it.
I was going to apologize for my above comment, but never
mind, it stands.
Allen Jameson Klein
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 6-Feb-97 Re: To MILO: My Friend
look.. by "Milo D. Cooper"@cts.com
so much
> > bandwidth, but this is something that pops up way too much in the anime
> > newsgroups and I'm kinda annoyed at it, especially when people start
pulling
> > off the old "all the Japanese are racist pigs" routine (no, I'm not saying
> > anyone here has said that, just that I don't want this thread to degrade in
> > that direction as these threads are prone to do). You can call my
idea garbage
>
> > if you want, but these are my two tokens.
>
> buying.
Ah, well, as a little side comment I thought I'd mention that big dopey
eyes are not purely a product of the manga/anime era nor even of the
20th century.
Whether drawn to be "normal" or as a subconscious/overt envy of western
facial features, Japanese painters and sculptors have been putting huge
eyes on their creations for a long time.
al
--
allen jamie klein G0FAS1P1HS yan...@cmu.edu DN31RFRU0Y yow
This message absorbed into the 'net due to its fine osmolality.
Jenn Dolari
fer...@scsn.net (Ferral <fWo>) wrote:
> Oh please. The thing you have to realize the way japanese artist draw.
>They draw figures that look japanese to japanese people, not necessarily
>to non-asains. Think of all the anime and manga characters with oversized
>eyes and multicolored hair. You won't see any animes called "Ryu, the
>migrant worker"
However, there was a short lived anime series called "Miho" about a
migrant worker. ;)
Jenn
[Not joking!]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHUN LI - SHEEVA - KITANA - SONYA BLADE - MILEENA - SINDEL - CAMMY
ROSE Strength. Beauty. We have no equal in the kingdom. KING
PAI - SAKURA dol...@csrlink.net ANNA - MAI
JADE - ELLIS www.csrlink.net/users/dolari SOFIA - NINA
HSIEN KO Not all warriors are called "Sir!" MICHELLE
CHAOS - MORRIGAN - CHARLOTTE - NAKORURU - CHAM CHAM - FELICIA - ORCHID
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Thompson. HUZA!!
>buying.
Geez. He made some valid points and cited solid sources (some
of which I can confirm), and asked for your response, Milo. I was
really looking forward to your reply, to.
And this is what we get instead.
Oh, well. RASSM's in full swing now. Guess I could alway
mosey on over there.
--
- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson
Terence Byron Cox
But in my opinion, Japanese chicks look a hell
> of a lot better than american chicks, so there is my japanese worship for
> the day.
>
.... what are you talking about? Have you ever considered looking at the
Japanese-american chicks (if you're so intent on Japanese women)? Or is
it something in the Japan's water that influences their growth. Just
curious? This isn't a serious post. I'm just kidding. I know what you
meant. You identify "American" as Native American. You're just not into
that "squaw" thing (note: please excuse me if this term is
outdated/racist... I have no idea, I'm ignant see... teach me).
Later,
Terry
END
Terence Byron Cox
> So THIS is how the Amazing Milo "Pedantry and Zen" Cooper responds to
> correction. Take note, fellow dorkwatchers: the plight of Pseudointellectualus
> Americanus will continue in this delightful thread...
>
.... I thought it was pretty witty... Hey Milo, when did you add
'Pedantry' to your nickname, I thought it was just Zen? You've changed
man.
Hold on a second while I climb on my soap box... hold on, there.
Okay. You guys are actually looking for intellectualism? On a post that
had its roots in a post about sexual relations with Cartoon look-a-likes
(well, actually, I can't fault you there... pretty stimulating stuff). I
think what Milo meant to say was that he didn't agree and that he didn't
care to comment. Of course I could be wrong there. BUt you're right, he
shouldn't be so bitter. I mean he has his two favorite characters still
in active duty (Chun and Cammy), whereas mine (Guile) is MIA. And don't
even think about commenting that he's back "manifested" in Charlie or
that he's back in that new 3-d game. No way, no how. That ain't no
Guile. I played Guile, I know Guile, and that is no Guile. Give me back
Guile you bastards! Grrrrr! Where's Bob? Doesn't he want Honda back?
Later,
Terry
END
z_ra...@titan.sfasu.edu
In article <5ddead$e6v$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>, dou...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Doug Erickson) writes:
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com> writes:
>
First, I more or less dislike anime. The art is fine, but geez those
stories!!! gah g.....gggg
Anyway, I always heard that the Japanese were making fun of occidental
western european round eyes. Hence the big eyes....
One time I got dragged to an anime convention by one of my friends who
is, to quote wally "a goof". Anyhow I went and decided to have fun. Let me
tell you, there were more wierdos coming out of the wood work that day then
I've ever seen before. These guys had inflated egos to, which doesn;t make
much sense to me.... Look in the mirror, your dressed up like a ninja. And all
the other fashion faux pas... White skin, Long thin unkempt hair, acne. (all
signs of not getting enough sun BTW) And they thought they were gonna inhereit
the earth or something....
I had had enough. "Matt" I said to myself. You gotta throw a wrench
in the machine that we call "uncool people who think they really are cool
although deep in their heart they know its not true."
I gotta go, but let me just say that there were a lot of accusations of
masturbation. Sadly when confronted a lot of the dealers looked down at the
ground.
Tom Cannon still has my drawing of guile.
It's been about 3-4 years.
Can I have it back please
It's not that good, that you still want it...
Matthew M. Range-
Who saw guile fight guile in classic, and has 3 out of 5 set on his SFA upright
PsychoKick
In article <32FB08...@ix.netcom.com>, sdc...@ix.netcom.com says...
>.... I thought it was pretty witty... Hey Milo, when did you add
>'Pedantry' to your nickname, I thought it was just Zen? You've changed
>man.
> Hold on a second while I climb on my soap box... hold on, there.
>Okay. You guys are actually looking for intellectualism? On a post that
>had its roots in a post about sexual relations with Cartoon look-a-likes
>(well, actually, I can't fault you there... pretty stimulating stuff). I
Well, good things often come from the craziest places. I try to never
sell anything short. But I'll admit it, I'm a pretty hopeless intellectual who
has a hard time loosening up. Take my books... please? :)
>think what Milo meant to say was that he didn't agree and that he didn't
>care to comment. Of course I could be wrong there. BUt you're right, he
>shouldn't be so bitter. I mean he has his two favorite characters still
>in active duty (Chun and Cammy), whereas mine (Guile) is MIA. And don't
>even think about commenting that he's back "manifested" in Charlie or
>that he's back in that new 3-d game. No way, no how. That ain't no
>Guile. I played Guile, I know Guile, and that is no Guile. Give me back
>Guile you bastards! Grrrrr! Where's Bob? Doesn't he want Honda back?
I want Fei Long back personally.
PsychoKick
In article <UmydvAS00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, aj...@andrew.cmu.edu says...
>Ah, well, as a little side comment I thought I'd mention that big dopey
>eyes are not purely a product of the manga/anime era nor even of the
>20th century.
>
>Whether drawn to be "normal" or as a subconscious/overt envy of western
>facial features, Japanese painters and sculptors have been putting huge
>eyes on their creations for a long time.
If I remember correctly, some of the roots can be traced back to
traveling storytellers in pre-modern Japan. The ones that used sliding
pictureboards as illustrations for their stories? To make it easier for the
audience to view the pictures, the heads and eyes were enlargened and
exaggerated at the expense of other less prominent features so that a kid
sitting 50 feet away could still make out what was going on.
Of course, there's the Disney and Betty Boop influence as well; there's
no deneying that.
Shaun McIsaac
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>
> > Ferral wrote:
> >> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> >>
> >> buying.
Translation: I'm having a bad day
>
> I was going to apologize for my above comment
Translation: I'm sorry, I was having a bad day. I'm over it...
> , but never mind,
Translation: Nope, I'm still having a bad day.
> it stands.
SPM
PsychoKick
In article <1997Feb...@titan.sfasu.edu>, z_ra...@titan.sfasu.edu says...
> First, I more or less dislike anime. The art is fine, but geez those
>stories!!! gah g.....gggg
Well... no comment, except that I find it hard to make such a blanket
statement when anime covers stories that range from porno to Shakespeare.
> Anyway, I always heard that the Japanese were making fun of occidental
>western european round eyes. Hence the big eyes....
Actually, Westerners are often drawn with slitty eyes in anime,
especially if they're the "bad guys". Historical roots go back to the pre-Meji
era when... what the? ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!
*SMASH*BONK*BIFF*WHACK*BBOOOOMMMM!!!!*
[Akuma flies onscreen and does the Raging Deamon on PsychoKick before he can
spout more animation history that no one wants to hear.]
> One time I got dragged to an anime convention by one of my friends who
>is, to quote wally "a goof". Anyhow I went and decided to have fun. Let me
>tell you, there were more wierdos coming out of the wood work that day then
>I've ever seen before. These guys had inflated egos to, which doesn;t make
>much sense to me.... Look in the mirror, your dressed up like a ninja. And
>all the other fashion faux pas... White skin, Long thin unkempt hair, acne.
>(all signs of not getting enough sun BTW) And they thought they were gonna
>inhereit the earth or something....
In general, all types of fandom (Trekkies, anime, D&D, etc) are pretty
ugly beasts. I take small pride in myself as a fan who can actually keep
himself clean on a regular basis and gets regular exercise.
> I had had enough. "Matt" I said to myself. You gotta throw a wrench
>in the machine that we call "uncool people who think they really are cool
>although deep in their heart they know its not true."
Well, they're not hurting anyone. Let them have their fandom, they
don't got much else. And some get can rich from it...
> I gotta go, but let me just say that there were a lot of accusations
>of masturbation. Sadly when confronted a lot of the dealers looked down at
>the ground.
Urgh... gross. Gross. At least I'm not THAT pathetic (I don't like
porno anime).
Milo D. Cooper
>> buying.
>
> Really, did I give the impression of Japan worship? How so? If you care
> to note, I mentioned that such iconic, simplified techniques are found in ALL
> cartoons, not just Japanese. Take Ziggy, Blondie, G.I. Joe, Calvin and Hobbes,
> etc etc etc.
I mentioned to Seth Killian once that it is impossible to be
too abstract, but it *is* possible to be too unrealistic.
I don't know (or don't recall) who Ziggy is, but Blondie, G.I.
Joe, and Calvin, although they're stylistically represented, STILL
LOOK WHITE. They aren't drawn with the thicker lips and darker
skin generally reserved for black characters, nor are their eyes
narrow, which characteristic is typical of a Japanese individual,
in the whole context of human races. The racial identity of these
characters, as depicted by their appearances, is immediately iden-
tifiable. No mistake can logically be made. And Hobbes actually
looks like a tiger, not an ocelot or a tabby.
With Ryu, Chun Li, Sagat, Adon, and even, to some degree, Gen,
there is some rather justifiable confusion. All of these charac-
ters could easily pass for white people -- rather odd, this, in a
game of purportedly "world" cultures. Sagat and Adon, especially,
with their great height and bulk (remember, Adon spends much of his
time with his knees bent and his back arched), look virtually no-
thing like Thais. (E.Honda, Sakura and Guy look a little better --
they have darker hair, and more of a slant to their eyes.) The pe-
culiarity of this is augmented by the appearance of Fei Long, who,
thanks to Bruce Lee, manages to actually look like a cartoon ver-
sion of a Chinese man. You may also remember that Geki and Lee of
Street Fighter (One) were drawn with eye narrowness and skin color
more representative of Asian peoples of the Orient.
Obviously, there are limits to the freedom of artistic exag-
geration. When the lines are crossed, the intended depiction be-
comes something else. Part of being a good artist is acknowledg-
ing this reality, and working within its boundaries.
Ultimately, none of this is important to the essence of
Street Fighter, but as artwork, it *is* flawed, since the charac-
ters are supposed to represent people of specific races and cul-
tures. It's the only thing that I don't particularly like about
anime. Otherwise, the art form rocks.
Omega MAD
In article <32F7A6...@cts.com>, "Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com>
writes
>Seav Chang wrote:
>>
[INTERESTING BUT INSANE VIEWPOINT SNIPPED]
>
> Thank you, I have. I don't know about you (since you seem
>to be out of your mind, in general), but I'd find it strangely
>inconsistent of Capcom to depict black people and white people
>in typical fashions, while depicting Asian characters with ref-
>erence to real Asians with predominantly European facial fea-
>tures. In other words, Dee Jay and Balrog look typically
>black, and Ken and Cammy look typically white (or Rolento and
>Cammy, for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese
>guy with dyed hair), so why wouldn't the Japanese and Chinese
>characters look typically Asian? Just admit that anime artists
>generally like to portray Asians occidentally.
This brings to mind a question i've been mussing over lately. What
nationality is Geese Howard meant to be? I'd say a typical white guy
normally, but looking at his picture in the second cut scene in real
bout fatal fury, his face is very asian looking. This could well be what
milo was talking about in action.
--
Omega MAD
SFA2 code V2.0: t+(++) A(+) C+ c+ T+ r+(-)->-r+
f g->+ m s+(++) v+(++) M+(-) n+:+ o+
NeoFreak Code V1.0:
Gm A++[20] N+(++)>++++ C-(--) j+++(+) F++#%*
F+^ P+++ p++(+++) n+ c++[NG]
-----------------------------------------
"Show your opponent no weaknesses,
and he will always fail to find yours."
-M.Bison, Secrets of Shadaloo
-----------------------------------------
Omega MAD
In article <19970205033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Gyumaoh
<gyu...@aol.com> writes
>>> for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese guy with dyed
>
>Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
>
>
--
Omega MAD
SFA2 code V2.0: t+(++) A(+) C+ c+ T+ r+(-)->-r+
f g->+ m s+(++) v+(++) M+(-) n+:+ o+
"You cannot fight destiny,
The world will be mine!"
-M.Bison, SFA
----------------------------------------
Omega MAD
In article <tanaka-0502...@tanaka.maya.com>, Kenichiro Tanaka
<tan...@maya.com.delete.this.stuff> writes
>> hair
>>
>> Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
>
>Masters" so they changed him into an American.
>
make his home country USA in SF2. Maybe not eh?
Kuroyume
z_ra...@titan.sfasu.edu wrote:
> First, I more or less dislike anime. The art is fine, but geez those
>stories!!! gah g.....gggg
> Anyway, I always heard that the Japanese were making fun of occidental
>western european round eyes. Hence the big eyes....
> One time I got dragged to an anime convention by one of my friends who
>is, to quote wally "a goof". Anyhow I went and decided to have fun. Let me
>tell you, there were more wierdos coming out of the wood work that day then
>I've ever seen before. These guys had inflated egos to, which doesn;t make
>much sense to me.... Look in the mirror, your dressed up like a ninja. And all
>the other fashion faux pas... White skin, Long thin unkempt hair, acne. (all
>signs of not getting enough sun BTW) And they thought they were gonna inhereit
>the earth or something....
>
> I had had enough. "Matt" I said to myself. You gotta throw a wrench
>in the machine that we call "uncool people who think they really are cool
>although deep in their heart they know its not true."
> I gotta go, but let me just say that there were a lot of accusations of
>masturbation. Sadly when confronted a lot of the dealers looked down at the
>ground.
Beautiful. This was totally off topic, but it hit the nail right on
the head.
--
Kuroyume
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu
James Margaris
PsychoKick wrote:
>
> In article <RUK5PhAb...@mbison.demon.co.uk>, omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk
> says...
> >
> >In article <tanaka-0502...@tanaka.maya.com>, Kenichiro Tanaka
> ><tan...@maya.com.delete.this.stuff> writes
> >>In article <19970205033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >>gyu...@aol.com (Gyumaoh) wrote:
> >>
> >>> >> for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese guy with dyed
> >>> hair
> >>>
> >>> Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
> >>
> >>Ken started out fully Japanese. Then, Capcom US started calling him "Ken
> >>Masters" so they changed him into an American.
> >>
> >Fully Japanese? Yeah right, blonde hair, white guy skin color and they
> >make his home country USA in SF2. Maybe not eh?
>
> (explains the dark eyebrows then). And his home country ever since SF1 was USA
> (in fact, you chose between Ryu or Ken by picking either an American or
> Japanese flag).
>
> --
> -PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
> --
> "
Actually, I believe that first player side was always Ryu and the
second side always Ken.
James Margaris
PsychoKick
In article <32FB7C...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>
>> PsychoKick wrote:
>>> In article <32F9C5...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>>>
>>> Sell your bullsh?t Japan worship to someone else, I'm not
>>> buying.
>>
>> [...]
>> Really, did I give the impression of Japan worship? How so? If you
>>care to note, I mentioned that such iconic, simplified techniques are found
>>in ALL cartoons, not just Japanese. Take Ziggy, Blondie, G.I. Joe, Calvin and
>>Hobbes, etc etc etc.
>
> I mentioned to Seth Killian once that it is impossible to be
>too abstract, but it *is* possible to be too unrealistic.
On what level of realism? Remember we're not talking about live-action
or things that strive to look like live-action, rather a newspaper comic-like
form (manga/anime) where appearance is based more on characterization.
Plus another thing to consider is unrealistic by what standard.
Unrealistic for what purpose?
> I don't know (or don't recall) who Ziggy is, but Blondie, G.I.
>Joe, and Calvin, although they're stylistically represented, STILL
>LOOK WHITE. They aren't drawn with the thicker lips and darker
>skin generally reserved for black characters, nor are their eyes
>narrow, which characteristic is typical of a Japanese individual,
>in the whole context of human races. The racial identity of these characters,
>as depicted by their appearances, is immediately identifiable. No mistake can
>logically be made.
Okay, first off I shouldn't have mentioned G.I. Joe in the first place.
It was an error on my part categorizing G.I. Joe with the likes of newspaper
comics when it's actually falls under American comic-book style. American comic
books and newspaper comics are quite different from each other. Anime/manga
shares many, many stylistic similarities with newspaper comics and are even
distributed in a similar fasion as newspapers, so for the sake of clarity
please consider newspaper and anime/manga to be the same in this post. American
comic books strive for high detail in everything, newsprint comics strive for
maximum description with minimum detail (and minimum amount of ink for that
matter).
Now going back to the issue at hand, you really can't deem characters
like Blondie or the humans in Calvin&Hobbes, Ziggy, and the vast majority of
newspaper comics to be outright Caucasian either. They're drawn way too simple.
Very often the only deciding factor in these cases would be storyline and skin
color. And newspaper comic artists on a tight schedule don't have time to use
every single subtle shade of grey for completely accurate racial depiction,
plus subtle shading goes against the "style" of newsprint comics.
>And Hobbes actually looks like a tiger, not an ocelot or a tabby.
Actually, when I said Calvin & Hobbes I was merely refferring to the
human characters in that strip. Animals are too alien for most people to see
the individual "races" within a single animal species.
As for Hobbes, he looks a lot like some cats I've seen, down to the
very stripes. In fact, Bill Watterson himself said that he based Hobbes
partially on his cat Sprite (paraphrased from Calvin and Hobbes 10th
Anniversary Book.). I'm not saying that he actually 100% looks like a cat,
because that's impossible in the style he is drawn. The only thing that truly
makes or breaks Hobbes as a tiger is his size.
> With Ryu, Chun Li, Sagat, Adon, and even, to some degree, Gen,
>there is some rather justifiable confusion. All of these charac-
>ters could easily pass for white people -- rather odd, this, in a
>game of purportedly "world" cultures.
In other words you don't have a problem with anime style, it's the fact
that anime style (which is racially ambiguous) was used in SF (in which race
plays a large factor in) is what disconcerts you. That I can understand and
even agree on.
And Chun Li in SSF2T has slanted eyes BTW.
>Sagat and Adon, especially, with their great height and bulk (remember, Adon
>spends much of his time with his knees bent and his back arched), look
>virtually nothing like Thais.
Thai kickboxers can get REALLY bulky (Ditto for a whole lotta other
strength-oriented martial arts, such as traditional karate styles in which the
objective is to kill or disable with one blow. "Chi powers" may help if they
exist, but there's nothing like good ol' rock hard, massive muscle). It's a
matter of the very rough strength-oriented training Thai kickboxers go through,
not race.
Orange hair is definitely not Thai (or any other race for the matter).
>(E.Honda, Sakura and Guy look a little better -- they have darker hair, and
>more of a slant to their eyes.)
Not "better", "realistic." "Better" is subjective unless the two
parties agree beforehand what standard is being used. Since we haven't had time
to collaborate, stick with "realistic."
>The peculiarity of this is augmented by the appearance of Fei Long, who,
>thanks to Bruce Lee, manages to actually look like a cartoon version of a
>Chinese man.
Because they were TRYING to parody/caricature Bruce Lee, a real person,
which requires some form of realism, and thus stepped out of the usual
conventions of anime/manga. Plus he's not a main character... and cartoons by
their very freeform nature don't have set-in-stone templates for characters and
races. Fei Long is a _caricature_ in that he is meant to physically evoke a
connotation to a real-life person. A cartoon is generally not meant or not
required to do so. (Is caricature a subset of cartoon or a different type of
cartoon? Hm... food for thought, I'll have to think about this one. Hey, I'm an
animation buff, these things are interesting for me.)
>You may also remember that Geki and Lee of Street Fighter (One) were drawn
>with eye narrowness and skin color more representative of Asian peoples of the
>Orient.
'Twas long ago and I don't remember their faces, but I'd have to
disagree with you on skin color. I've had firsthand experience that there are
plenty of pale Asians as well as dark ones. Enough so that saying that to be
racially accurate Asians _have_ to be darker than Caucasians is inaccurate.
There are more dark Asians than there are dark Caucasians, but there are still
plenty of pale Asians, perhaps a slight majority or slight minority.
Getting back to roots in newsprint comics, they will tend to go for a
"rounding" approach when it comes to skin color. They will reduce skin color to
either blank or darkened, no in-between, since it saves time and money in the
inking and toning process. So it is up to the discretion of the artist to
portray Asians as light or dark.
> Obviously, there are limits to the freedom of artistic exaggeration.
Hoo boy, I'm not going to open THAT can of worms... how is it obvious?
Obvious because a lot of people don't like it or find it out of place? Then
it's "inappropriate", not "out of the required limits." Artistic limits are
NEVER set in stone.
In this case, you could very well make a perfectly sound argument that
anime style is inappropriate for SF.
>When the lines are crossed, the intended depiction becomes something else.
>Part of being a good artist is acknowledging this reality, and working within
>its boundaries.
What if the intent is not to stay in the boundaries in the first place?
What if the emphasis is not on the physical likeness but the personality? Since
when are the boundaries deemed completely uncrossable? Sometimes boundaries are
better crossed.
> Ultimately, none of this is important to the essence of Street Fighter,
>but as artwork, it *is* flawed, since the characters are supposed to represent
>people of specific races and cultures.
The artwork isn't flawed, it's just that the wrong form of art is being
used for SF. Ok, I'd have no problem with that. If you insisted that the actual
artform is flawed (not its usage) then I'd have a problem with that.
Besides, it would be almost impossible to define any art as "flawed"
unless it does not live up to its creator's vision, which is quite subjective.
Art could very well be morally wrong, but it isn't flawed if it fulfills the
creator's vision.
Taking this viewpoint, SF as a whole is flawed in the art department
because the art falls short in terms of accurate racial depiction, which would
be expected to play a high role in a "World Warrior"-type event.
>It's the only thing that I don't particularly like about anime. Otherwise,
>the art form rocks.
You really don't have to say if you generally like anime or not. I do
my best to ignore all personal opinions when engaged in serious discussion,
whether they agree with mine or not.
You could REALLY do with a less incenidary subject line. If you tried
to get me angry, it didn't work. It's innacurate to boot. What would have been
more accurate (according to your argument) would be "RYU LOOKS LIKE A WHITE,
ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT." Nowhere did you ever say that he isn't Japanese, only
you've said he doesn't look Japanese.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
PsychoKick
In article <RUK5PhAb...@mbison.demon.co.uk>, omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk
says...
>
>In article <tanaka-0502...@tanaka.maya.com>, Kenichiro Tanaka
><tan...@maya.com.delete.this.stuff> writes
>>In article <19970205033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>gyu...@aol.com (Gyumaoh) wrote:
>>
>>> >> for you imbeciles who still think that Ken is a Japanese guy with dyed
>>> hair
>>>
>>> Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
>>
>>Ken started out fully Japanese. Then, Capcom US started calling him "Ken
>>Masters" so they changed him into an American.
>>
>Fully Japanese? Yeah right, blonde hair, white guy skin color and they
>make his home country USA in SF2. Maybe not eh?
I thought he was originally half-Japanese and a bleached blonde
(explains the dark eyebrows then). And his home country ever since SF1 was USA
(in fact, you chose between Ryu or Ken by picking either an American or
Japanese flag).
--
Allen Jameson Klein
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 7-Feb-97 Re: To MILO: My Friend
look.. by Psych...@cornell.edu
>
> >Ah, well, as a little side comment I thought I'd mention that big dopey
> >eyes are not purely a product of the manga/anime era nor even of the
> >20th century.
> >
> >Whether drawn to be "normal" or as a subconscious/overt envy of western
> >facial features, Japanese painters and sculptors have been putting huge
> >eyes on their creations for a long time.
>
> If I remember correctly, some of the roots can be traced back to
> traveling storytellers in pre-modern Japan. The ones that used sliding
> pictureboards as illustrations for their stories? To make it easier for the
> audience to view the pictures, the heads and eyes were enlargened and
> exaggerated at the expense of other less prominent features so that a kid
> sitting 50 feet away could still make out what was going on.
Kamishibai? Interesting.
Doubt they called it "super-deformed" back then, though! ^_^
Joshua Dyal
Thus spoke "Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@cts.com>:
> With Ryu, Chun Li, Sagat, Adon, and even, to some degree, Gen,
>there is some rather justifiable confusion. All of these charac-
>ters could easily pass for white people -- rather odd, this, in a
>game of purportedly "world" cultures. Sagat and Adon, especially,
>with their great height and bulk (remember, Adon spends much of his
>time with his knees bent and his back arched), look virtually no-
>thing like Thais. (E.Honda, Sakura and Guy look a little better --
>they have darker hair, and more of a slant to their eyes.) The pe-
>culiarity of this is augmented by the appearance of Fei Long, who,
>thanks to Bruce Lee, manages to actually look like a cartoon ver-
>sion of a Chinese man. You may also remember that Geki and Lee of
>Street Fighter (One) were drawn with eye narrowness and skin color
>more representative of Asian peoples of the Orient.
They did fix Ryu for Street Figher 3, though. He's gone from Red hair
to brown to sort of reddish again (sfa) and now it's finally black.
His facial features in the char. select screen make him look like he's
finally "Turning Japanese," as the Vapours say.
Joshua Dyal
j-d...@tamu.edu
PsychoKick
In article <cke6DYAI...@mbison.demon.co.uk>, omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk
says...
>
>>hair
>>
>>Ken is supposed to be half-Japanese (on his mother's side)
>>
>>
My bro and I always joked that maybe he dyed his eyebrows black. :)
Eliza: "Ken, what's taking you so long?"
Ken (in the bathroom): "I'm dyeing my eyebrows, honey!"
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives,
but from people who become outcasts." -Toshio Okada
--
"One little word shall fell him."
Milo D. Cooper
> Terence Byron Cox wrote:
>> Some dude wrote:
>>
>> So THIS is how the Amazing Milo "Pedantry and Zen" Cooper responds to
>> correction. Take note, fellow dorkwatchers: the plight of Pseudointellectualus
>> Americanus will continue in this delightful thread...
>
> 'Pedantry' to your nickname, I thought it was just Zen? You've changed
> man.
> Hold on a second while I climb on my soap box... hold on, there.
> Okay. You guys are actually looking for intellectualism? On a post that
> had its roots in a post about sexual relations with Cartoon look-a-likes
> (well, actually, I can't fault you there... pretty stimulating stuff). I
> care to comment. Of course I could be wrong there. BUt you're right, he
> shouldn't be so bitter. I mean he has his two favorite characters still
> in active duty (Chun and Cammy), whereas mine (Guile) is MIA. And don't
> even think about commenting that he's back "manifested" in Charlie or
> that he's back in that new 3-d game. No way, no how. That ain't no
> Guile. I played Guile, I know Guile, and that is no Guile. Give me back
> Guile you bastards! Grrrrr! Where's Bob? Doesn't he want Honda back?
Hey, man, if you can dismiss the SFEX Guile as false, then I
can dismiss both the Alpha Two Chun-Cheap *and* that heinous,
Spider-Man wanna-be Cammy in XMvSF. These are *not* the Chun and
Cammy of old, and I much prefer Adon to either incarnation, not
least because one has to actually exercise one's brain to win
with him.
Mat Findlay
wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) wrote:
>>Sagat and Adon, especially, with their great height and bulk (remember, Adon
>>spends much of his time with his knees bent and his back arched), look
>>virtually nothing like Thais.
> Thai kickboxers can get REALLY bulky (Ditto for a whole lotta other
>strength-oriented martial arts, such as traditional karate styles in which the
>objective is to kill or disable with one blow. "Chi powers" may help if they
>exist, but there's nothing like good ol' rock hard, massive muscle). It's a
>matter of the very rough strength-oriented training Thai kickboxers go through,
>not race.
> Orange hair is definitely not Thai (or any other race for the matter).
Ummm, have you ever actually seen a Thai boxer from Thailand? They are
skinny like rails. In fact, while in American boxing, where 200 lbs is
on the smaller end of weight classes, in Thai boxing, it's bordering
on super heavyweight class (something that caught my eye, being a Thai
boxer and weighing in at 210 lbs).
Thai boxing is not about strength. It's about endurance. As a result,
Thai boxers train their muscles a bit, in order to have their shots
cause damage, but they mostly work their cardiovascular. As a result,
they have like no body fat, but also not a big bulky frame. They can
move around a lot easier. Training for Thai boxing is not "strength
based," but rather "endurance based." Thai boxers in North America who
were born here tend to get bulky because they tend to train in order
to bulk up as well so they look "buff." I, for example, was working
out before I started training in Muay Thai, so my frame was already
large when I started. Thai boxing did nothing for the muscle I had
already built except maintain them. However, my body fat percentage
went way down. My working out beforehand, however, actually hindered
my training, as I wasn't as limber as I could have been, and my kicks
can't go all that high. While the little guys who started around the
same time I did can actually kick me in the head while I'm standing
(I'm 6'1", they're like 5'7"), I'm lucky if I can hit a guy my height
in the ribs. In the end, though, it works out, since I don't think
it's really necessary to kick a standing guy in the head, since it
leaves you open.
Another thing... Thai boxing is not about taking your opponent down in
one shot. It's about wearing your opponent down with kicks and punches
until they can no longer continue. One common technique in Thai boxing
is to repeatedly kick at the opponent's thighs in order to bring up
welts and bruises. The reasoning behind it is that more blood has to
go to that area in order to form the bruises and welts, and the more
blood that goes there, the less blood there is going to the brain. The
result is that the opponent will be easier to knock out. In fact,
there have been instances where a guy will get knocked out without
even getting hit in the head, and just taking leg shots through the
whole match.
So anyway, that's what Thai boxing is about. In short, the character
of Adon is a more realistic Thai boxer-looking character, being small,
thin, but 100%, well defined muscle, whereas Sagat is not really
realistic at all, being a huge monster musclebound oaf.
Just thought it would be nice to get comments from someone actually
involved in the sport.
"If God hadn't intended for us to eat animals, then he
wouldn't have made them out of meat."
- John Cleese on Late Night with Conan O'Brien.
Why not check out the Gutshot Web Page? Wanna know the address?
It's http://www.interlog.com/~gutshot
Take it EEZ...
Mat. <tet...@interlog.com>
PsychoKick
In article <5divde$b...@news.interlog.com>, tet...@interlog.com says...
[Thai boxing stuff snipped]
Thank you on the info, I stand corrected on that matter. I suppose I
haven't seen enough Thai boxing...
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives,
but from people who become outcasts." -Toshio Okada
Terence Byron Cox
PsychoKick wrote:
You could REALLY do with a less incenidary subject line. If you
tried
> to get me angry, it didn't work. It's innacurate to boot. What would have been
> more accurate (according to your argument) would be "RYU LOOKS LIKE A WHITE,
> ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT." Nowhere did you ever say that he isn't Japanese, only
> you've said he doesn't look Japanese.
>
.... what? Hello... WASP? you seem to know what the words stand for, but
aren't exactly too knowledable on exactly why it was coined. Think.
First of all, I doubt Milo intended any references toward religion
(Milo, did you say Ryu was Protestant? Man, there goes his popularity in
Ireland). And there's that use of Anglo-Saxon. Do you know where the
word stems from? Ever hear of the Normans and the Saxons? Wait.. reality
just kicked me in the head. You have it in quotes... so Milo did say
this? For shame Milo (read above).
Later,
Terry
END
Terence Byron Cox
> Hey, man, if you can dismiss the SFEX Guile as false, then I
> can dismiss both the Alpha Two Chun-Cheap *and* that heinous,
> Spider-Man wanna-be Cammy in XMvSF. These are *not* the Chun and
> Cammy of old, and I much prefer Adon to either incarnation, not
> least because one has to actually exercise one's brain to win
> with him.
> --
> /|___Milo D. Cooper___|\
> \| mdco...@cts.com |/
.... really (in response to "exercise one's brain"), as opposed to the
non-brain characters. Hmmm. It's always been my experience (short of
Magic Throws, etc.) that if one doesn't think that they will lose. Check
me if I'm wrong (and I'm not talking about matchup like classic
Guile/Dhalsim against anyone else, or other complete missmatches). I
mean can't you beat an unthinking opponent (they fall for the same stuff
and don't adjust). Plus, as a side note, that new Guile is trapped in
bit-mapped polygon hell. You started at UTC at the end of
Hyper-Fighting, right? Well Chun hasn't stylistically changed all that
much (CCs, ACs, etc. don't count here: they're universal changes),
although she has lost that spin kick.
Later,
Terry
END
Kuroyume
tet...@interlog.com (Mat Findlay) wrote:
[big snip]
>So anyway, that's what Thai boxing is about. In short, the character
>of Adon is a more realistic Thai boxer-looking character, being small,
>thin, but 100%, well defined muscle, whereas Sagat is not really
>realistic at all, being a huge monster musclebound oaf.
Ah yes. My preference for Sagat's skinnier, pre-alpha appearance is
justified then.
--
Kuroyume
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu
PsychoKick
In article <32FD24...@ix.netcom.com>, sdc...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>PsychoKick wrote:
>
>> You could REALLY do with a less incenidary subject line. If you
>>tried to get me angry, it didn't work. It's innacurate to boot. What would
>>have been more accurate (according to your argument) would be "RYU LOOKS LIKE
>>A WHITE, ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT." Nowhere did you ever say that he isn't
>>Japanese, only you've said he doesn't look Japanese.
>
>aren't exactly too knowledable on exactly why it was coined. Think.
>First of all, I doubt Milo intended any references toward religion
>(Milo, did you say Ryu was Protestant? Man, there goes his popularity in
>Ireland). And there's that use of Anglo-Saxon. Do you know where the
>word stems from? Ever hear of the Normans and the Saxons? Wait.. reality
>just kicked me in the head. You have it in quotes... so Milo did say
>this? For shame Milo (read above).
Milo started this particular thread and subject line, not me. Among
other things I was merely commenting on his rather questionable taste in
subject lines, and making a trivial nitpick on grammatical accuracy on the
side.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives,
but from people who become outcasts." -Toshio Okada
Milo D. Cooper
> Terence Byron Cox wrote:
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>
>> can dismiss both the Alpha Two Chun-Cheap *and* that heinous,
>> Spider-Man wanna-be Cammy in XMvSF. These are *not* the Chun and
>> Cammy of old, and I much prefer Adon to either incarnation, not
>> least because one has to actually exercise one's brain to win
>> with him.
>
> non-brain characters. Hmmm. It's always been my experience (short of
> Magic Throws, etc.) that if one doesn't think that they will lose. Check
> me if I'm wrong (and I'm not talking about matchup like classic
> Guile/Dhalsim against anyone else, or other complete missmatches). I
> mean can't you beat an unthinking opponent (they fall for the same stuff
> and don't adjust).
We've been over this ten-gazillion times. Alpha Two, by
Capcom's own admission, was engineered to attract players who
consistently lost to the strategies and innovations of exper-
ienced players during the pre-Alpha era. As Tom Cannon re-
cently explained, the Alpha games very much center around
simple (i.e. requiring of less mental activity) yet very pow-
erful attack and defense features, designed to counter more
creative and more unorthodox styles of play. Mr. Cannon ex-
plained that, as a direct result of this implementation, Al-
pha Two is extremely tiresome and bland at high levels of
competition, since, as Capcom intended, there is virtually no
way around these simple and powerful features, which are
very much exploited. The game *caters* to the simpler men-
talities of scrubs. That's the hard truth of it. I'm real-
ly, really tired of having to go over this again and again
and again and again.
Sure, I can beat an unthinking opponent in Alpha Two,
as long as I resort to the same simple tactics, which quick-
ly becomes excruciatingly dull, since there's no need to pow-
er-up my brain in the process. For instance, when I fought
against Thao Duong in the last SFA2 tournament that I at-
tended, he used Ken (probably the simplest and most powerful
character in the game, next to Chun-Li) in all three matches.
I made the mistake of picking Adon in the first battle; I
could hear several of the L.A. and Sunnyvale elite remarking
that all that Thao had to do was basically "sit there," and
of course, they were essentially correct. Turtle (i.e. pas-
sive play) Ken has no trouble against Adon, who *must* be
played actively, since he has no projectile and no half-
screen alpha counter. So I went with Rose in the second
bout, and I won, because she's brainless, too, offering one
who plays her the opportunity to take advantage of the in-
herent witlessness of the Alpha series. As I fought that
match, I slipped into a daze, and later, I began to realize
how people like Thao and Graham Wolfe have that wan, Jack-
Nicholson-in-The-Shining look on their faces as they play
the game. The stupor broke after I won the second fight,
though, so I lost the third one.
> Plus, as a side note, that new Guile is trapped in
> bit-mapped polygon hell. You started at UTC at the end of
> Hyper-Fighting, right? Well Chun hasn't stylistically changed all that
> much (CCs, ACs, etc. don't count here: they're universal changes),
> although she has lost that spin kick.
The same can be said of Guile in SFEX. Whoopie. In
fact, your EX Guile is more like Super Turbo Guile than
Alpha Chun-Li is like Super Turbo Chun-Li. EX Guile has
the same special moves and many of the same normal attacks
as his predecessors. Chun, on the other hand, never had
the splits kick in Super Turbo, nor had she the hadoken-
motion fireball; and she lost (or gained, depending on the
way in which you look at it) her spinning bird kick. What
special moves of Guile's were changed or omitted? Yeah,
that's what I thought.
Terence Byron Cox
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> We've been over this ten-gazillion times. Alpha Two, by
> Capcom's own admission, was engineered to attract players who
> consistently lost to the strategies and innovations of exper-
> ienced players during the pre-Alpha era.
<part cut>
>That's the hard truth of it. I'm real-
> ly, really tired of having to go over this again and again
> and again and again.
.... hmmm. Sorry if that was painful for you (but I appreciate it, I
hadn't heard that stuff yet). I agree to some extent (now that you have
me thinking about it) with the idea that Alpha was created to even the
playing field for those who weren't competitive with the existing SF
series. It introduced a lot of new stuff including mixing up the
characters (keeping the uppercut posse) and even changing some of the
hit priorities and characteristics. Plus it added air blocking and let
people walk backward (rather than just block) when an opponent attacked
(say a jumping short). But, to be perfectly honest, when playing my
Bison I often find myself still thinking against most matchups (against
good players and characters other than Dan). The only character that I
have consistent trouble with is Chun.
You also mentioned that you hazed over in playing so that you didn't
have to think when you played. Actually, this is kind of a trademark of
the game. When I played (and won) in a Hyper-Fighting tourny at UTC, I
often slipped into low brain activity as I mimicked the patterns and
traps that I'd performed so many times before. I mean when I play most
characters I have a game plan on how to address them. I'm sure this is
very old hat to you. Of course, in the better versions, (like I'm sure
you're thinking), a good player can mix up the game by reading my
patters/traps and then eating me alive. Like I mentioned before, classic
was the worst for pattern dominance (Dhali v. Guile was the only half
way decent fight). And I can definately see how Alpha has fewer
variables, and less ways to mix up the game.
> The same can be said of Guile in SFEX. Whoopie.
.... hmm, maybe you're missing my point on the SFEX thing. Y'see I think
that it is a joke for a game. I'm guessing that CapCom commissioned it
because they saw the trend for 3Dish stuff (Tekken, etc.) and got
scarred. I don't blame them. But it's just not there for me. I tried it.
I tried Guile. No long crouching forward: Guile's trademark. No long
jumping roundhouse. No leaping knee with the directional forward. No
high arcing "mule" kick roundhouse. No. This game lacks what made SF so
great (and what you mentioned before): versatility.
The Guile I played had over fifty different move executions. his
forward could go straight up when close standing (anti-Bison), leaping
knee when joystick pushed forward or back, a funky turn around kick when
standing (we called it the "cowboy kick"), a super long crouching kick,
a straight up jumping kick when jumping vertical, and an unorthodox
downward reaching kick when jumping forward or back. And that was just
his forward. I know you know all this. Like you said, Chun and Cammy had
their repetoir too. For some reason, Capcom suddenly decided to change
the basic properties and moves of most their characters. I mean look at
the Alpha 2 ZangRief. What a joke. You could select the old ZangRief,
right? But where's all his old grabs, and where did all his moves go? He
has the same animations as his SFA2 counterpart. I mean I understood
when CapCom limited moves in their SNES version of Hyper-Fighter (to
make an arcade game run on a limited home system). But now? Move
versatility is what made it such an incredible game.
> In
> fact, your EX Guile is more like Super Turbo Guile than
> Alpha Chun-Li is like Super Turbo Chun-Li.
.... just for note, I hated the Super Turbo Guile. The new version wasn't
even Guile anymore. They messed up his standing roundhouse, his standing
forward, and they moved his knee rush to the short (making the standing
short [his fastest repeating ground hitting move] useless [couldn't
store anymore without leaping]). I always used the old Guile in that
version (a la the code). And that's probably why I didn't fault that
version, you could actually pick the true old version. It was still
pretty unfair though that only the new guys got super bars though. Heck,
Dee Jay played just like a Guile too (just like Bison does in SFA2 now).
Funny, you seem to be drawn to the characters like Chun, Cammy,
Adon... who have to work in to do their damage. And I like the
characters like Guile.
> EX Guile has
> the same special moves and many of the same normal attacks
> as his predecessors. Chun, on the other hand, never had
> the splits kick in Super Turbo, nor had she the hadoken-
> motion fireball; and she lost (or gained, depending on the
> way in which you look at it) her spinning bird kick. What
> special moves of Guile's were changed or omitted? Yeah,
> that's what I thought.
.... "that's what I thought"? Chuns helicopter was crap. Crap. It never,
EVER gave me trouble. I used to play you, it was a joke (the helicopter
that is). Her fireball motion thing only helps her. It didn't change the
actual move, it just made it easier. Give me old Guile with a Sonic Boom
performed like a fireball, I wouldn't complain. And getting new moves as
a rule doesn't hurt your character: you don't HAVE to use them.
I'll admit, the Chun and Cammy in XMvSF (just like every other SF in
there) is not a reflection of their true self. And what's this about
Guile's special moves in SFEX? Special moves do not always define a
character. If a Ryu can get an anti-air off he chooses his unbeatable
uppercut... but Guile in the same situation would probably not be stored
and would rely on a jumping roundhouse, a jumping fierce, an air throw,
a standing forward, a crouching fierce, a standing jab, a crouching
strong, or a standing roundhouse. No one even hardly knew the great
priority of Ryu's standing fierce (that one that goes straight out)
because it was almost always a second runner to his uppercut. Guile's
moves defined him. I mean who's dumb enough to jump on a crouching
stored Guile?
Later,
Terry
END
Milo D. Cooper
< PsychoKick wrote:
<< Milo D. Cooper says...
<<< PsychoKick wrote:
<<<
<<< Really, did I give the impression of Japan worship? How so?
If you
<<< care to note, I mentioned that such iconic, simplified techniques
are found
<<< in ALL cartoons, not just Japanese. Take Ziggy, Blondie, G.I. Joe,
Calvin and
<<< Hobbes, etc etc etc.
<<
<< I mentioned to Seth Killian once that it is impossible to be
<< too abstract, but it *is* possible to be too unrealistic.
<
< On what level of realism?
There's only one level of realism. Anything above (or below)
that level isn't realistic. Abstraction is *subordinate* to
realism, not *superior* to it. When people start valuing abstrac-
tion over realism, then their work becomes unrealistic, since ab-
straction is the personal interpretation of reality in the first
place, and *not* reality itself. Without reality, there *is* no
abstraction. What else can there be about which to be abstract?
< Remember we're not talking about
live-action
< or things that strive to look like live-action, rather a newspaper
comic-like
< form (manga/anime) where appearance is based more on characterization.
Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
and conspicuous. Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
Why do they require some special treatment?
< Plus another thing to consider is unrealistic by what
standard.
< Unrealistic for what purpose?
You tell me! You're the one defending the anime artist's
predilection for drawing white people.
What do you think that Michelangelo meant by "less is more?"
Simplicity in art is a matter of *essence*, NOT a matter of
stripping a subject of its identity. It is quite a simple matter
to depict a character's race with very little artistic detail.
That's part of the beauty of cartoon art, my friend. An artist
draws upon the *essentially* unique aspects of a subject, and
limits himself to them in portraying it.
< Very often the only deciding factor in these cases would be storyline
and skin
< color. And newspaper comic artists on a tight schedule don't have time
to use
< every single subtle shade of grey for completely accurate racial
depiction,
< plus subtle shading goes against the "style" of newsprint comics.
<
<< And Hobbes actually looks like a tiger, not an ocelot or a tabby.
<
< Actually, when I said Calvin & Hobbes I was merely refferring
to the
< human characters in that strip. Animals are too alien for most people
to see
< the individual "races" within a single animal species.
I disagree, but that's beside the points of this discussion,
so I won't comment further, here.
< As for Hobbes, he looks a lot like some cats I've seen, down
to the
< very stripes. In fact, Bill Watterson himself said that he based
Hobbes
< partially on his cat Sprite (paraphrased from Calvin and Hobbes 10th
< Anniversary Book.). I'm not saying that he actually 100% looks like a
cat,
< because that's impossible in the style he is drawn. The only thing
that truly
< makes or breaks Hobbes as a tiger is his size.
Whether that's true or not (and I believe that it's not),
the depiction of his size is still a matter of simple detail.
<< With Ryu, Chun Li, Sagat, Adon, and even, to some degree, Gen,
<< there is some rather justifiable confusion. All of these charac-
<< ters could easily pass for white people -- rather odd, this, in a
<< game of purportedly "world" cultures.
<
< In other words you don't have a problem with anime style, it's
the fact
< that anime style (which is racially ambiguous) was used in SF (in
which race
< plays a large factor in) is what disconcerts you. That I can
understand and
< even agree on.
< And Chun Li in SSF2T has slanted eyes BTW.
Sort of. She still looks more white than Chinese.
< [... Thai kickboxer bit already demolished by Mat Findlay...]
<
<< (E.Honda, Sakura and Guy look a little better -- they have darker
hair, and
<< more of a slant to their eyes.)
<
< Not "better", "realistic." "Better" is subjective unless the
two
< parties agree beforehand what standard is being used. Since we haven't
had time
< to collaborate, stick with "realistic."
Okay, fair enough. Now, since you know what *I* mean
by "better" in this context, I'll feel free to use the
word in the future.
<< The peculiarity of this is augmented by the appearance of Fei Long,
who,
<< thanks to Bruce Lee, manages to actually look like a cartoon version
of a
<< Chinese man.
<
< Because they were TRYING to parody/caricature Bruce Lee, a
real person,
< which requires some form of realism, and thus stepped out of the usual
< conventions of anime/manga. Plus he's not a main character... and
cartoons by
< their very freeform nature don't have set-in-stone templates for
characters and
< races. Fei Long is a _caricature_ in that he is meant to physically
evoke a
< connotation to a real-life person. A cartoon is generally not meant or
not
< required to do so. (Is caricature a subset of cartoon or a different
type of
< cartoon? Hm... food for thought, I'll have to think about this one.
Hey, I'm an
< animation buff, these things are interesting for me.)
You claim, below, that there are no limits to artistic
expression. This is irreconcilable with the paragraph
above. ("A cartoon is generally not meant or not required
to do so.") You'll have to clear this up before I can an-
swer you on this specific matter.
<< You may also remember that Geki and Lee of Street Fighter (One) were
drawn
<< with eye narrowness and skin color more representative of Asian
peoples of the
<< Orient.
<
< 'Twas long ago and I don't remember their faces, but I'd have
to
< disagree with you on skin color. I've had firsthand experience that
there are
< plenty of pale Asians as well as dark ones. Enough so that saying that
to be
< racially accurate Asians _have_ to be darker than Caucasians is
inaccurate.
< There are more dark Asians than there are dark Caucasians, but there
are still
< plenty of pale Asians, perhaps a slight majority or slight minority.
Okay. I never noticed this, myself.
< Getting back to roots in newsprint comics, they will tend to
go for a
< "rounding" approach when it comes to skin color. They will reduce skin
color to
< either blank or darkened, no in-between, since it saves time and money
in the
< inking and toning process. So it is up to the discretion of the artist
to
< portray Asians as light or dark.
<
<< Obviously, there are limits to the freedom of artistic
exaggeration.
<
< Hoo boy, I'm not going to open THAT can of worms... how is it
obvious?
< Obvious because a lot of people don't like it or find it out of place?
Then
< it's "inappropriate", not "out of the required limits." Artistic
limits are
< NEVER set in stone.
< In this case, you could very well make a perfectly sound
argument that
< anime style is inappropriate for SF.
It's obvious in that exaggeration is dependent on reality
for its definition. The reality to be abstractly interpreted
must first be acknowledged before any exaggeration may take
place; otherwise, there *is* no exaggeration (abstraction),
there is only the statement of feeling without object.
<< When the lines are crossed, the intended depiction becomes something
else.
<< Part of being a good artist is acknowledging this reality, and
working within
<< its boundaries.
<
< What if the intent is not to stay in the boundaries in the
first place?
Then it's less art than it is a technical experiment,
like Schoenberg's twelve-tone music system.
< What if the emphasis is not on the physical likeness but the
personality? Since
< when are the boundaries deemed completely uncrossable? Sometimes
boundaries are
< better crossed.
Explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun, and
Sagat are better defined by making them look white.
<< Ultimately, none of this is important to the essence of Street
Fighter,
<< but as artwork, it *is* flawed, since the characters are supposed to
represent
<< people of specific races and cultures.
<
< The artwork isn't flawed, it's just that the wrong form of art
is being
< used for SF. Ok, I'd have no problem with that. If you insisted that
the actual
< artform is flawed (not its usage) then I'd have a problem with that.
< Besides, it would be almost impossible to define any art as
"flawed"
< unless it does not live up to its creator's vision, which is quite
subjective.
< Art could very well be morally wrong, but it isn't flawed if it
fulfills the
< creator's vision.
Again, explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun,
and Sagat are better defined by making them look white. If
an artist's vision isn't grounded in reality, his arts's
flawed, because no one possesses the ability to realize any
part of reality without first abstracting from reality itself.
< Taking this viewpoint, SF as a whole is flawed in the art
department
< because the art falls short in terms of accurate racial depiction,
which would
< be expected to play a high role in a "World Warrior"-type event.
Yup.
<< It's the only thing that I don't particularly like about anime.
Otherwise,
<< the art form rocks.
<
< You really don't have to say if you generally like anime or
not. I do
< my best to ignore all personal opinions when engaged in serious
discussion,
< whether they agree with mine or not.
How are opinions ever *im*personal?
< You could REALLY do with a less incenidary subject line. If
you tried
< to get me angry, it didn't work. It's innacurate to boot. What would
have been
< more accurate (according to your argument) would be "RYU LOOKS LIKE A
WHITE,
< ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT." Nowhere did you ever say that he isn't
Japanese, only
< you've said he doesn't look Japanese.
There are no limits to rhetorical expression. No limits!
PsychoKick
In article <32FDB1...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
[snip]
> There's only one level of realism. Anything above (or below)
>that level isn't realistic. Abstraction is *subordinate* to
>realism, not *superior* to it. When people start valuing abstrac-
>tion over realism, then their work becomes unrealistic, since ab-
>straction is the personal interpretation of reality in the first
>place, and *not* reality itself. Without reality, there *is* no
>abstraction. What else can there be about which to be abstract?
I shouldn't have said "level". I meant something _entirely_ different.
A more appropriate word is "aspect". Most art forms only deal with a few
aspects of reality, because of their inherent technical limitations (there's
only so much you can convey with ink and canvas, or the written word, or
"smell-o-grams").
[snip]
> Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
>in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
>sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
>and conspicuous. Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
>rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
>Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
>of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
>Why do they require some special treatment?
Actually, they don't. I just realized this recently (Hey, I actually
learned something from a net argument!) when I said "SF is flawed in the art
department because it uses a racially ambigiuous artform for a game where race
plays a large factor."
If SF was an RPG or adventure game where the personalities of the
characters are pushed to the forefront, then the essence is not the race, and
anime styling could be more appropriate.
[snip]
> You tell me! You're the one defending the anime artist's
>predilection for drawing white people.
No, I'm defending the anime artist's prediliction to draw characters
any which way they want to, and forgo racial concerns to draw large eyes for
characters whose personalities and roles are best characterized by large eyes
if that's the best thing for the situation.
And it seems we agree that it's not the best thing for SF...
[snip]
> What do you think that Michelangelo meant by "less is more?"
>Simplicity in art is a matter of *essence*, NOT a matter of
>stripping a subject of its identity. It is quite a simple matter
>to depict a character's race with very little artistic detail.
>That's part of the beauty of cartoon art, my friend. An artist
>draws upon the *essentially* unique aspects of a subject, and
>limits himself to them in portraying it.
I'll point out that sometimes the essence and identity is the
personality and role, not the appearance. Michelangelo wasn't primarily a
storyteller (though his artwork could indeed tell their own "stories").
And again I'll say that I've decided to agree with you that the anime
style used in SF is not the best style for SF.
[snip]
> Whether that's true or not (and I believe that it's not),
>the depiction of his size is still a matter of simple detail.
True.
[snip]
> Sort of. She still looks more white than Chinese.
She looks a lot like a Chinese friend of mine. :) No, seriously,
though, her appearance is not very out-of-the-ordinary for Chinese (except for
being more attractive than the norm), but her paleness might throw some people
off.
[snip]
> Okay, fair enough. Now, since you know what *I* mean
>by "better" in this context, I'll feel free to use the
>word in the future.
OK.
[snip]
> You claim, below, that there are no limits to artistic
>expression. This is irreconcilable with the paragraph
>above. ("A cartoon is generally not meant or not required
>to do so.") You'll have to clear this up before I can an-
>swer you on this specific matter.
There are no limits to total artistic expression, but we impose our own
limits when we start referring to different styles (cartoon, baroque,
classical, doodling, etc etc), mainly for the sake of classification.
[snip]
> It's obvious in that exaggeration is dependent on reality
>for its definition. The reality to be abstractly interpreted
>must first be acknowledged before any exaggeration may take
>place; otherwise, there *is* no exaggeration (abstraction),
>there is only the statement of feeling without object.
Ok then. But again what aspect of reality is used as the base is a
factor. Physical reality? (which SHOULD have been the base for the SF art)
Mental reality? (which most anime is based on, and SF art was based on only
because anime style is generally popular in Japan)
[snip]
> Again, explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun,
>and Sagat are better defined by making them look white. If
>an artist's vision isn't grounded in reality, his arts's
>flawed, because no one possesses the ability to realize any
>part of reality without first abstracting from reality itself.
They aren't; my gaffe. SF isn't best suited for an art style where
personality and story roles are emphasized over physical appearance. It should
be the other way around for SF, since the personality really isn't as major a
factor in the game as the physical appearance and race.
[snip]
> How are opinions ever *im*personal?
They aren't, thank you for pointing out my grammatical gaffe.
Redundancy is a hard habit to shake.
> There are no limits to rhetorical expression. No limits!
Never said you couldn't do it, just said that it wasn't accurate. Break
the limits if you want, just be prepared to face any consequences without
complaint.
On another note, thanks for the discussion. I found it rather rewarding
despite (or maybe because of) having some of my initial allegations shot down.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives,
but from people who become outcasts." -Toshio Okada
Scott Thompson. HUZA!!
In article <5di6m4$i...@news.tamu.edu>, J-d...@tamu.edu says...
>
>They did fix Ryu for Street Figher 3, though. He's gone from Red hair
>to brown to sort of reddish again (sfa) and now it's finally black.
>His facial features in the char. select screen make him look like he's
>finally "Turning Japanese," as the Vapours say.
So... the possibility of Ryu's hair just darkening with age has
pretty much been thrown out the window? ;-)
--
- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson,
MST D-voe-T
Scott Thompson. HUZA!!
>
> There's only one level of realism. Anything above (or below)
>that level isn't realistic. Abstraction is *subordinate* to
>realism, not *superior* to it. When people start valuing abstrac-
>tion over realism, then their work becomes unrealistic, since ab-
>straction is the personal interpretation of reality in the first
>place, and *not* reality itself. Without reality, there *is* no
>abstraction. What else can there be about which to be abstract?
Sorry. Nope. Abstraction _IS_ art. Everything rendered is
abstracted. A _photograph_ is abstracted. Realism is
unachiveable--especially on a 2D surface. Use of abstraction to
indicate what it is your rendering is the process known as drawing.
You seem to beleive that it is possible to produce a picture
that is 100% quantifiable as "realistic." Not so. Go out to a museum
somewhere, find a painting you think is "realistic."
Now get close up to it. There are brush strokes. Oil lines.
Were these anomolies part of the scene the artist was trying to
portray?
Consider a photograph, which is what I'm betting is what you
consider the definition of captured reality. Look at a photograph of
yourself. Is it real?
Are you really 1 1/2 inches talk and unspeakable flat, with red
glowing eyes and one huge white tooth? The camera distorts and
abstracts the image, producing a photograph.
Expecting artwork to be "realistic" under any circumstances is
unreasonable, and if you told your art team to make sure the characters
look real, you'd get laughed at. Whole-heartedly.
To create the suggestion of realism, artists use different
making techniques designed to impress into the mind of the viewer what
it is that's being depicted. And _here's_ where it gets tricky.
These "tricks" are determined culturally. So a drawing of, for
example, a Chinese man by an American artist would look different that
one by a Chinese artist. After four semesters of Art Appriciation,
I've come to be quite acurate at picking out the region a particular
peice comes from. There _are_ tell-tail signs.
Heck, the character portraits back in the original SF2 were
abstracted, to great degrees. The new portraits in SSF2 and up aren't
any more abstracted, they're just more _dynamic_. And, IMO, they look
much better, as the new pictures look more active, energetic. The old
pics were lethargic and boring. Kinda goofy-looking too, in a bad way.
> Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
>in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
>sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
>and conspicuous.
It wouldn't be if you were an East Asian. And the artists who
designed these characters and produced the art were Japanese, as we all
know (I _hope_).
> Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
>rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
>Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
>of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
>Why do they require some special treatment?
Cultural influence over art. Oshii, director of Ghost in the
Shell (the best cyberpunk movie since Blade Runner), made a comment
about that. GitS went with a more standard art theme than most anime,
and so the characters looked American to the Americans who watched it.
They're actually supposed to look Japanese. The artists, who were
Japanese, designed the lead charcters (all Japanese) as looking
ordinary; in am abstracted art form like animation, this meant making
tham look ordinary, with fewer defining features. If you look at the
few American characters in the movie, the distinction is clear and easy
to understand. They add features that Japanese people attribute to
Americans to the same basic "ordinary" starting point.
> What do you think that Michelangelo meant by "less is more?"
>Simplicity in art is a matter of *essence*, NOT a matter of
>stripping a subject of its identity. It is quite a simple matter
>to depict a character's race with very little artistic detail.
>That's part of the beauty of cartoon art, my friend. An artist
>draws upon the *essentially* unique aspects of a subject, and
>limits himself to them in portraying it.
Right. It's not a literal re-interpritation of the shapes it
attempts to portray. In a word, it's _abstracted_. Congratulations,
you've just contradicted yourself.
>< As for Hobbes, he looks a lot like some cats I've seen, down
>to the
>< very stripes. In fact, Bill Watterson himself said that he based
>Hobbes
>< partially on his cat Sprite (paraphrased from Calvin and Hobbes 10th
>< Anniversary Book.). I'm not saying that he actually 100% looks like
a
>cat,
>< because that's impossible in the style he is drawn. The only thing
>that truly
>< makes or breaks Hobbes as a tiger is his size.
>
> Whether that's true or not (and I believe that it's not),
>the depiction of his size is still a matter of simple detail.
Right. The depiction of size is another element of
abstraction; one method of suggesting what the ink-symbol on the
newsprint is supposed to represent.
>< Because they were TRYING to parody/caricature Bruce Lee, a
>real person,
>< which requires some form of realism, and thus stepped out of the
usual
>< conventions of anime/manga. Plus he's not a main character... and
>cartoons by
>< their very freeform nature don't have set-in-stone templates for
>characters and
>< races. Fei Long is a _caricature_ in that he is meant to physically
>evoke a
>< connotation to a real-life person. A cartoon is generally not meant
or
>not
>< required to do so. (Is caricature a subset of cartoon or a different
>
> You claim, below, that there are no limits to artistic
>expression. This is irreconcilable with the paragraph
>above. ("A cartoon is generally not meant or not required
>to do so.") You'll have to clear this up before I can an-
>swer you on this specific matter.
I beleive what he means is that the artist is forced to find
the features about (in this case) Bruce Lee that distinguish him not
only from other races, but from other Chinese individuals, and find a
way to portray them accurately on a distorting medium.
> It's obvious in that exaggeration is dependent on reality
>for its definition. The reality to be abstractly interpreted
>must first be acknowledged before any exaggeration may take
>place; otherwise, there *is* no exaggeration (abstraction),
>there is only the statement of feeling without object.
>
><< When the lines are crossed, the intended depiction becomes
something
>else.
><< Part of being a good artist is acknowledging this reality, and
>working within
><< its boundaries.
><
>< What if the intent is not to stay in the boundaries in the
>first place?
>
> Then it's less art than it is a technical experiment,
>like Schoenberg's twelve-tone music system.
Site basis, please. Three years of art courses talking here,
and each and every one of them ramming home the point that
exparamentation and deviation from the established techniques are what
make artists great. Would you consider the works of Picaso nothing
more than a "technical experiment," then? Or do you not consider the
Cubist style true art?
>
> Again, explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun,
>and Sagat are better defined by making them look white. If
>an artist's vision isn't grounded in reality, his arts's
>flawed, because no one possesses the ability to realize any
>part of reality without first abstracting from reality itself.
Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>
> There are no limits to rhetorical expression. No limits!
We reach for the sky!
(I COULD use this to bring up the point that rhetorical
expression itself is a form of art, but this post has gone on long
enough.. Later, kiddies.)
--
- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson,
last master of the Sakura-Ken technique
Milo D. Cooper
I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this person's
response. I think that many of you will understand why.
> Scott Thompson. HUZA!! wrote:
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>
Really quickly: abstraction is the observation of re-
ality without providing specific examples of it. When an
artist abstracts, he represents his version of reality
without providing his audience with actual samples of ex-
istence. Instead of taking a bunch of people to an actual
mountain, an artist would paint a picture of the way in
which the mountain impresses him, or find some way to pro-
duce sounds which represent the character of the mountain,
etc. No matter how he portrays the effect of the mountain
on himself, though, the mountain still has to exist in re-
ality before he can abstract from it. That's how reality
is the ultimate arbiter of the validity of any art. Pho-
tography is irrelevant, in this context. (I haven't made
up my mind whether photography is an art, yet.)
>> Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
>>in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
>>sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
>>and conspicuous.
>
> It wouldn't be if you were an East Asian. And the artists who
> designed these characters and produced the art were Japanese, as we all
> know (I _hope_).
What? Are you saying that Ryu looks more Japanese
than white? Are you saying that a significant segment
of the Japanese population of the world look like Ryu?
I'm damned if I've seen *one* that does.
>> Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
>>rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
>>Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
>>of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
>>Why do they require some special treatment?
>
> Cultural influence over art. Oshii, director of Ghost in the
> Shell (the best cyberpunk movie since Blade Runner), made a comment
> about that. GitS went with a more standard art theme than most anime,
> and so the characters looked American to the Americans who watched it.
> They're actually supposed to look Japanese. The artists, who were
> Japanese, designed the lead charcters (all Japanese) as looking
> ordinary; in am abstracted art form like animation, this meant making
> tham look ordinary, with fewer defining features. If you look at the
> few American characters in the movie, the distinction is clear and easy
> to understand. They add features that Japanese people attribute to
> Americans to the same basic "ordinary" starting point.
So, to these artists, looking "ordinarily" Japanese
meant looking "ordinarily" white? I'm not saying that
this is an invalid form of abstraction, but I *would*
like to be sure in my observation that that's a big part
of anime.
>> What do you think that Michelangelo meant by "less is more?"
>>Simplicity in art is a matter of *essence*, NOT a matter of
>>stripping a subject of its identity. It is quite a simple matter
>>to depict a character's race with very little artistic detail.
>>That's part of the beauty of cartoon art, my friend. An artist
>>draws upon the *essentially* unique aspects of a subject, and
>>limits himself to them in portraying it.
>
> Right. It's not a literal re-interpritation of the shapes it
> attempts to portray. In a word, it's _abstracted_. Congratulations,
> you've just contradicted yourself.
Not in the slightest. Once again, in the context
of Street Fighter, there has to be a clear artistic
distinction between the Japanese characters and the
white characters, otherwise essential, abstract por-
trayals are defeated, and characters start losing
identity, i.e. they start looking like something other
than what they're supposed to be. Ryu shares too many
of the same physical characteristics as some of the
other white characters in the games. In reality, Jap-
anese people have essentially unique physical charac-
teristics, but you wouldn't know that looking at
Street Fighter art. A man from Mars could easily pick
out the essential physical differences between the
black guys and the white people in the game, but I'd
like to see him try this with, say, Ryu and Chun-Li.
What's different about them, abstractly or concretely?
Their hair color? No. Skin color? No. Facial qual-
ities and/or expressions? No.
>> [...]
>><< When the lines are crossed, the intended depiction becomes
>something
>>else.
>><< Part of being a good artist is acknowledging this reality, and
>>working within
>><< its boundaries.
>><
>>< What if the intent is not to stay in the boundaries in the
> >first place?
> >
> > Then it's less art than it is a technical experiment,
> >like Schoenberg's twelve-tone music system.
>
> Site basis, please. Three years of art courses talking here,
> and each and every one of them ramming home the point that
> exparamentation and deviation from the established techniques are what
> make artists great. Would you consider the works of Picaso nothing
> more than a "technical experiment," then? Or do you not consider the
> Cubist style true art?
That's idiotic. If that were truly all that it takes
to be a great artist, then we'd have more great and famous
artists in this world than we could ever begin to count.
What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
represent reality. Originality just happens to be neces-
sary to this basic end at times, since one often has to be
original in order to portray an as yet unportrayed aspect
of human existence.
"Three years of art courses talking here," indeed.
Looks like we've got *another* college boy on our hands.
Will the flood never end? (Rhetorical question.)
>> Again, explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun,
>>and Sagat are better defined by making them look white. If
>>an artist's vision isn't grounded in reality, his arts's
>>flawed, because no one possesses the ability to realize any
>>part of reality without first abstracting from reality itself.
>
> Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
> reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
> reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
does not change depending on who perceives it.
Kenichiro Tanaka
> > Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
> > reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
> > reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>
> Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
> ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
> does not change depending on who perceives it.
Not to start another argument, but the idea that there is an absolute
reality, independant of observers, has been obsolete for a while. Not only
with quantum mechanics but with simple old Einstein's relativity. There
are many experiments you can do that demonstrate observation altering
reality.
| Kenichiro Tanaka -- tan...@maya.com |
| http://www.maya.com/Local/tanaka/ |
Scott Thompson. HUZA!!
In article <32FED6...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>
>I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this person's
>response. I think that many of you will understand why.
Thanks. I needed a good laugh. You always come through,
there.
> Really quickly: abstraction is the observation of re-
>ality without providing specific examples of it.
That may be Webster's definition, but it's not the definition
ofthe technical term used in communication design. When we're talking
about a rendering of some form, abstraction is the degree to which the
image is simplified and/or the methods used to exagerate it.
> When an
>artist abstracts, he represents his version of reality
>without providing his audience with actual samples of ex-
>istence.
Again, this is using the definition of abstraction synomymous
with "imagining." Not the true technical definition in the field of
art and design.
>Pho-
>tography is irrelevant, in this context. (I haven't made
>up my mind whether photography is an art, yet.)
Well, it _can_ be. But that's another thread altogether, and I
think photography's boring as Hell. So moving right along...
>> It wouldn't be if you were an East Asian. And the artists
who
>> designed these characters and produced the art were Japanese, as we
all
>> know (I _hope_).
>
> What? Are you saying that Ryu looks more Japanese
>than white? Are you saying that a significant segment
>of the Japanese population of the world look like Ryu?
>I'm damned if I've seen *one* that does.
I've never seen an American that looks like Guile. Guile's
fleshtones, BTW, were considerable different from Ryu's. (And Ken's,
since he was just Ryu with yellow hair... *%&^-!) They made an
effort. They just made that effort from a Japanese point of view, and
that's something most folks over here can't identify with.
>> Cultural influence over art. Oshii, director of Ghost in
the
>> Shell (the best cyberpunk movie since Blade Runner), made a comment
>> about that. GitS went with a more standard art theme than most
anime,
>> and so the characters looked American to the Americans who watched
it.
>> They're actually supposed to look Japanese. The artists, who were
>> Japanese, designed the lead charcters (all Japanese) as looking
>> ordinary; in am abstracted art form like animation, this meant
making
>> tham look ordinary, with fewer defining features. If you look at
the
>> few American characters in the movie, the distinction is clear and
easy
>> to understand. They add features that Japanese people attribute to
>> Americans to the same basic "ordinary" starting point.
>
> So, to these artists, looking "ordinarily" Japanese
>meant looking "ordinarily" white? I'm not saying that
>this is an invalid form of abstraction, but I *would*
>like to be sure in my observation that that's a big part
>of anime.
No, I mean to them, Japanese-looking is the rule, and other
races the exception. So they draw the Japanese characters to look the
simplest and most basic--a sort of standard design. Using that as
their starting point, they add features to this standard design, and
get Americans, or Chinese, or whatever.
Look at Ryu's mug shot in SFA2. Yes, I know it's painful, but
bear with me. Pretty simplistic. a three-line jawline with two eyes,
a nose, and a mouth stuck on it. Contrast with Charlie or Rolento.
Much more detail, because on top of the "basic" design of the face,
they have to add extra features to denote them as being foreigners.
>> Right. It's not a literal re-interpritation of the shapes
it
>> attempts to portray. In a word, it's _abstracted_.
Congratulations,
>> you've just contradicted yourself.
>
> Not in the slightest. Once again, in the context
>of Street Fighter, there has to be a clear artistic
>distinction between the Japanese characters and the
>white characters, otherwise essential, abstract por-
>trayals are defeated, and characters start losing
>identity, i.e. they start looking like something other
>than what they're supposed to be. Ryu shares too many
>of the same physical characteristics as some of the
>other white characters in the games. In reality, Jap-
>anese people have essentially unique physical charac-
>teristics, but you wouldn't know that looking at
>Street Fighter art. A man from Mars could easily pick
>out the essential physical differences between the
>black guys and the white people in the game, but I'd
>like to see him try this with, say, Ryu and Chun-Li.
>What's different about them, abstractly or concretely?
>Their hair color? No. Skin color? No. Facial qual-
>ities and/or expressions? No.
The tell-tail for me was Chun Li's slanted eyes (talking SF2
here). They don't look slanted, until you remember how big and round
eyes are typically drawn in these anime-esque styles. The distinction
isn't exactly _blatent_, but it's there. In the Alphas they seemed to
have botched this a bit, since they had to make her lok younger and one
way of doing that is to make the eyes bigger.
>> Site basis, please. Three years of art courses talking
here,
>> and each and every one of them ramming home the point that
>> exparamentation and deviation from the established techniques are
what
>> make artists great. Would you consider the works of Picaso nothing
>> more than a "technical experiment," then? Or do you not consider
the
>> Cubist style true art?
>
> That's idiotic.
Thank you. And I hope your mother dies in a freak boating
accident.
There.
Are we done flaming now? Can we get back to the discussion?
Or are you just going to keep moaning like this in you next followup?
(and color me sideblind but I think you're the only one here
who thinks the whole NG is against me, Calahan)
>If that were truly all that it takes
>to be a great artist, then we'd have more great and famous
>artists in this world than we could ever begin to count.
>What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
>represent reality. Originality just happens to be neces-
>sary to this basic end at times, since one often has to be
>original in order to portray an as yet unportrayed aspect
>of human existence.
Again, SITE BASIS. From what source are you gettting this
from? You're getting lied to. "Originality just happens to be neces-
>sary" my ARSE. It's escential. It's the core of creativity. If what
you're producing isn't original, if it isn't something unique unto your
own style, then it's repitition. Or Extreme Studios.
"What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
represent reality," you say? Once again, I thrust cubism in your face.
How is a painting of a nude woman which is simultaniously depicted
from four different angles realist?
> "Three years of art courses talking here," indeed.
>Looks like we've got *another* college boy on our hands.
>Will the flood never end? (Rhetorical question.)
[snicker] You must be near the end of your list of smokescreen
rationalizations--you've stooped to personal insults. Hilarious. To
think I almost passed over premium access... Oh, the irony.
>> Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only
_suggest_
>> reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to
suggest
>> reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>
> Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
>ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
>does not change depending on who perceives it.
Hmm. Interesting point. I give you that.
BUT,
Reality itself cannot be captured in art, only the artist's
perception of reality--his interpritation of it. This interpritation
is therefore an abstraction of reality, like I've been saying all
along. Reality is impossible. The _suggestion_ of a reality is the
basis of the visual arts.
--
- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson,
second verse, same as the first.
PsychoKick
>>> Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
>>>in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
>>>sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
>>>and conspicuous.
>>
>> It wouldn't be if you were an East Asian. And the artists who
>> designed these characters and produced the art were Japanese, as we all
>> know (I _hope_).
>
> What? Are you saying that Ryu looks more Japanese
>than white? Are you saying that a significant segment
>of the Japanese population of the world look like Ryu?
>I'm damned if I've seen *one* that does.
AFAIK no Asian I know really looks like Ryu. No Caucasian I know really
looks like Guile either... I'll be damned if I saw a single Caucasian who
looked like Guile.
>>> Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
>>>rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
>>>Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
>>>of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
>>>Why do they require some special treatment?
>>
>> Cultural influence over art. Oshii, director of Ghost in the
>> Shell (the best cyberpunk movie since Blade Runner), made a comment
>> about that. GitS went with a more standard art theme than most anime,
>> and so the characters looked American to the Americans who watched it.
>> They're actually supposed to look Japanese. The artists, who were
>> Japanese, designed the lead charcters (all Japanese) as looking
>> ordinary; in am abstracted art form like animation, this meant making
>> tham look ordinary, with fewer defining features. If you look at the
>> few American characters in the movie, the distinction is clear and easy
>> to understand. They add features that Japanese people attribute to
>> Americans to the same basic "ordinary" starting point.
>
> So, to these artists, looking "ordinarily" Japanese
>meant looking "ordinarily" white? I'm not saying that
>this is an invalid form of abstraction, but I *would*
>like to be sure in my observation that that's a big part
>of anime.
Quick question, what race would you say the "Have a Nice Day" face is?
If the eyes were drawn as slanted lines, someone raised in a Caucasian
environment would probably say "Asian". If there was a huge nose added, someone
raised in an Asian environment would probably say "Caucasian". If it was just
left alone, then my guess is they'd both probably name the race of their
evironmental upbringing.
Anime differentiates races differently from American cartoon art.
Actually, when I look at SF I'd say that it's not really the usual anime style,
sort of a cross between Western cartoon art and anime.
> Not in the slightest. Once again, in the context
>of Street Fighter, there has to be a clear artistic
>distinction between the Japanese characters and the
>white characters, otherwise essential, abstract por-
>trayals are defeated, and characters start losing
>identity, i.e. they start looking like something other
>than what they're supposed to be. Ryu shares too many
>of the same physical characteristics as some of the
>other white characters in the games. In reality, Jap-
>anese people have essentially unique physical charac-
>teristics, but you wouldn't know that looking at
>Street Fighter art. A man from Mars could easily pick
>out the essential physical differences between the
>black guys and the white people in the game, but I'd
>like to see him try this with, say, Ryu and Chun-Li.
>What's different about them, abstractly or concretely?
Quite a lot.
>Their hair color? No.
Kind of an impossible question to say yes to, since Caucasians have
hair color that spans every possible pigmentation and Asians have a shorter
range. On another hand, Ainu Japanese have wavy hair and lighter shades of
brown than "normal" Japanese.
>Skin color? No.
Asians can be very pale... and it's not THAT unusual. Ryu is darker
than Chun Li.
>Facial qualities and/or expressions? No.
The way Chun Li's face and nose are rounded in SSF2T is VERY Chinese.
Her eyes are plenty Chinese. Chun Li is definitely Chinese.
Yet another note: plenty of Asians have what Koreans call "sakkapuhl,"
or folds in the eyelids that make the eyes seem larger (some people call these
"Western eyes", though personally I find that definition somewhat arrogant,
sorta like how Down's syndrome was once referred to as "Mongolism"). In Korea
(dunno about other Asian countries) sakkapuhl is considered an attractive
detail, but not overwhelmingly so (you can be considered beautiful without
them).
>> Site basis, please. Three years of art courses talking here,
>> and each and every one of them ramming home the point that
>> exparamentation and deviation from the established techniques are what
>> make artists great. Would you consider the works of Picaso nothing
>> more than a "technical experiment," then? Or do you not consider the
>> Cubist style true art?
I would think there's more to great art than just bucking the trends.
Sure, innovation is necessary, but definitly not the only factor that makes
artists great.
> That's idiotic. If that were truly all that it takes
>to be a great artist, then we'd have more great and famous
>artists in this world than we could ever begin to count.
>What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
>represent reality. Originality just happens to be neces-
>sary to this basic end at times, since one often has to be
>original in order to portray an as yet unportrayed aspect
>of human existence.
I think that's trivializing originality a wee too much... There's being
different, and there's being original.
> "Three years of art courses talking here," indeed.
>Looks like we've got *another* college boy on our hands.
>Will the flood never end? (Rhetorical question.)
Sigh... I find it infantile to make jibes at someone's education or
lack thereof. Milo, you're a smart guy, but I can see why so many people would
say otherwise. I know, you shouldn't care what other people think, but if
you're caustic then don't expect them to take you seriously either. Same goes
for everyone else...
>> Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
>> reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
>> reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>
> Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
>ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
>does not change depending on who perceives it.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives, but from people who become
outcasts." -Toshio Okada
--
"One little word shall fell him." -'A Mighty Fortress is our God'
--
"Actually, I like being corrected. That way, I don't embarrass myself by
spewing the same BS over and over." -Paul Cordeiro
PsychoKick
In article <330036...@pl.jaring.my>, yhc...@pl.jaring.my says...
[snip]
>PsychoKick wrote:
>> She looks a lot like a Chinese friend of mine. :) No, seriously,
>> though, her appearance is not very out-of-the-ordinary for Chinese (except
>> for being more attractive than the norm), but her paleness might throw some
>> people off.
>
>pale. I don't know anything about the Chinese in the US, but down
>here in Asia, there's a substantial amount of pale-almost-to-the-
>whiteness Chinese.
Exactly. I myself a rather pale Korean, and my sister is even paler
than me. When I said that Chun Li's paleness might throw some people off, I
meant that because a lot of non-Asian people don't expect Asians to be anywhere
near pale at all.
>One question - why isn't anyone saying anything about Dhalsim? He
>looks like one of those 'neutral' characters Psychokick was talking
>about. What do you think?
Hm... I'll have to take another look at Dhalsim, but he never looked
very neutral to me... rather a bit on the stereotypical side.
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives, but from people who become
outcasts." -Toshio Okada
--
KEVIN HECKMAN
[ Quoting Milo D Cooper to All ]
MDC> ality before he can abstract from it. That's how reality
MDC> is the ultimate arbiter of the validity of any art. Pho-
MDC> tography is irrelevant, in this context. (I haven't made
MDC> up my mind whether photography is an art, yet.)
(My two cents:) Photography is art. Not *all* photography is art (not
all paint on canvas is art either, of course) but good photography is.
Like you mentioned, art is grounded in reality, but it is *not* reality.
Art is reality as selectivly reinterpreted by the artist. During the
creative process of art -- whether painting, music, literature, etc. --
the artist chooses a certain subject matter over all others, and certain
attributes of the subject to emphasize over all others. Photography is
no different. The photographer chooses a certain subject matter, and
through the process of selecting angles, lenses, f-stops, etc.,
emphasises certain attributes of the subject. Hence, photography is
art.
[--- ron...@bigfoot.com, ULC minister, Pope, etc. fnord. ---]
[--- SF2Code v1.0: t++ c T r-(+) f+ g++ m+ s+ v+ M+ n+:- o@+ ---]
... The concept is simply staggering. Pointless, but staggering.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
Yow Hong Chieh
PsychoKick wrote:
> > Nevertheless, Street Fighter is a game of *world* warriors,
> >in which the East Asian characters are the only ones whose phy-
> >sical appearances aren't based on reality. That's inconsistent
> >and conspicuous. Everyone else's appearances are quite firmly
> >rooted in reality; why not the Chinese, Japanese, and Thai?
> >Why are *they* "based more on characterization," at the expense
> >of a realistic physical foundation, while the others aren't?
> >Why do they require some special treatment?
Since when are the Chinese characters in SF not rooted in reality?
Trust me, I live and breathe and eat next to Chinese people, and
their depiction in SF is about right, except for the usual process
of making them more aesthetically appealing (but NOT through any
sort of 'Caucasian-ization').
> Actually, they don't. I just realized this recently (Hey, I actually
> learned something from a net argument!) when I said "SF is flawed in the art
> department because it uses a racially ambigiuous artform for a game where race
> plays a large factor."
Actually, I would think the only reason they have different races in
here is because they want to bring in different types of fighting
skills, or martial arts, if you will (the fact that this further
spreads the stereotypical views of other races doesn't matter).
Wouldja play, let's say, SSF2T if it had 16 Asian guys running around
doing fireballs, rekka-kens, drills, headstomps, and SPDs?
> > Whether that's true or not (and I believe that it's not),
> >the depiction of his size is still a matter of simple detail.
Not all Japanese are small. Heck, the current generation spawned
some really tall Japanese (yes, taller than Ryu), not to mention
the other countries in Asia. Just come down here and take a look. :)
> > Sort of. She still looks more white than Chinese.
>
> She looks a lot like a Chinese friend of mine. :) No, seriously,
> though, her appearance is not very out-of-the-ordinary for Chinese (except for
> being more attractive than the norm), but her paleness might throw some people
> off.
She doesn't look white, and quite a number of Chinese people are
pale. I don't know anything about the Chinese in the US, but down
here in Asia, there's a substantial amount of pale-almost-to-the-
whiteness Chinese.
> Ok then. But again what aspect of reality is used as the base is a
> factor. Physical reality? (which SHOULD have been the base for the SF art)
> Mental reality? (which most anime is based on, and SF art was based on only
> because anime style is generally popular in Japan)
One question - why isn't anyone saying anything about Dhalsim? He
looks like one of those 'neutral' characters Psychokick was talking
about. What do you think?
> > Again, explain to me how the personalities of Ryu, Chun,
> >and Sagat are better defined by making them look white. If
> >an artist's vision isn't grounded in reality, his arts's
> >flawed, because no one possesses the ability to realize any
> >part of reality without first abstracting from reality itself.
Just one wee little nitpick: Chun Li doesn't look white (see above).
- Yow Hong Chieh @ Oka
Some Chinese Guy
PsychoKick
In article <tanaka-1002...@tanaka.maya.com>,
tan...@maya.com.delete.this.stuff says...
>
>In article <32FED6...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com wrote:
>
>> > Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
>> > reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
>> > reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>>
>> Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
>> ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
>> does not change depending on who perceives it.
>
>reality, independant of observers, has been obsolete for a while. Not only
>with quantum mechanics but with simple old Einstein's relativity. There
>are many experiments you can do that demonstrate observation altering
>reality.
I gotta say, this thread is getting REALLY interesting... (no sarcasm,
I mean it)
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives, but from people who become
outcasts." -Toshio Okada
Mat Findlay
wt...@cornell.edu (PsychoKick) wrote:
>In article <5divde$b...@news.interlog.com>, tet...@interlog.com says...
>[Thai boxing stuff snipped]
> Thank you on the info, I stand corrected on that matter. I suppose I
>haven't seen enough Thai boxing...
Three guesses what my favourite characters are...
Mat Findlay
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (Kuroyume) wrote:
>tet...@interlog.com (Mat Findlay) wrote:
>[big snip]
Although he's still way too tall... But he may not be a native Thai...
Allen Jameson Klein
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 10-Feb-97 Re: RYU IS A WHITE,
ANGLO-S.. by "Milo D. Cooper"@cts.com
> to be a great artist, then we'd have more great and famous
> artists in this world than we could ever begin to count.
> What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
> represent reality. Originality just happens to be neces-
> sary to this basic end at times, since one often has to be
> original in order to portray an as yet unportrayed aspect
> of human existence.
Was picasso a great artist? If so, where's the "accuracy?" Maybe
you're referring to creative highlight of emotion in that last sentence
-- in which case -- sounds ok to me.
Oh, I agree with all of your points made to psychokick but its not clear
to me whether you like capcom art or not. I thought everybody liked SF2
designs! ^_^ Anyway, if that's the case... how can chun li's design be
great art if it isn't "accurate" racially?
another college boy,
al
--
allen jamie klein G0FAS1P1HS yan...@cmu.edu DN31RFRU0Y yow
This message absorbed into the 'net due to its fine osmolality.
Joe Inoue
He looked rather Latinate in his SF2 portrait. In SFA, I am not so sure
whether he looks Anglo-Saxon as you've mentioned. By the way, do you even
know where the Anglo-Saxon came from, their origin, or what they look like?
Could you name two or three typical Anglo-Saxon celebrites you know of? No
offence but I get this impression that you have no idea of who they are
because the subject seems quite oxymoronic to me.
Ferral <fWo>
> >>So anyway, that's what Thai boxing is about. In short, the character
> >>of Adon is a more realistic Thai boxer-looking character, being small,
> >>thin, but 100%, well defined muscle, whereas Sagat is not really
> >>realistic at all, being a huge monster musclebound oaf.
>
However you are not accounting for genetic variances. Just because
someone is tall doesn't mean they can't learn Muay Thai and can't be a
Thailand native. Genetic mutations and variances happen all the time. And
if someone has the drive to do their best, they could learn Muay Thai. I
understand your need to be realistic about the game, but Sagat was the
boss character of SF1, and boss characters tend to be on the tall side.
You don't see many Street Fighting gangs led by Punky Brewster.
<<The preceding message has been paid for by the fERRAL wORLD oRDER>>
+------------------------------------------+ ||||||||||||||
Ferral - High Priest of Sekhmet ||
+------------------------------------------+ ||||||||||
Opinion is a three-edged sword. ||
There is your side, their side, ||
and the truth. || ||
+------------------------------------------+
fer...@scsn.com <fWo>
+------------------------------------------+
Milo D. Cooper
> Scott Thompson. HUZA!! wrote:
>> Milo D. Cooper says...
>>
>> I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this person's
>> response. I think that many of you will understand why.
>
> Thanks. I needed a good laugh. You always come through,
> there.
>
>> Really quickly: abstraction is the observation of re-
>> ality without providing specific examples of it.
>
> That may be Webster's definition, but it's not the definition
> ofthe technical term used in communication design. When we're talking
> about a rendering of some form, abstraction is the degree to which the
> image is simplified and/or the methods used to exagerate it.
That's what I said, smart guy. Instead of providing an
example of the reality itself, one presents it in the form
of one's individual perception.
>> When an
>> artist abstracts, he represents his version of reality
>> without providing his audience with actual samples of ex-
>> istence.
>
> Again, this is using the definition of abstraction synomymous
> with "imagining." Not the true technical definition in the field of
> art and design.
See above.
>> Pho-
>> tography is irrelevant, in this context. (I haven't made
>> up my mind whether photography is an art, yet.)
>
> Well, it _can_ be. But that's another thread altogether, and I
> think photography's boring as Hell. So moving right along...
>
>>> It wouldn't be if you were an East Asian. And the artists who
>>> designed these characters and produced the art were Japanese, as we all
>>> know (I _hope_).
>>
>> What? Are you saying that Ryu looks more Japanese
>> than white? Are you saying that a significant segment
>> of the Japanese population of the world look like Ryu?
>> I'm damned if I've seen *one* that does.
>
> I've never seen an American that looks like Guile.
Then you're blind. I don't recall seeing his doppleganger,
but his general features are quite common among Caucasian Ameri-
cans (funky hairdo notwithstanding). Ryu, on the other hand,
hasn't the eyes or (to a lesser extent) the hair color. Fei
Long *does*.
You mean, what anime artists call a "plain" look just
happens to resemble a white American. They don't care that
the characters don't actually look Japanese, as long as
they look "plain," i.e. they look like white people. Gee,
it's too bad that their concept of "plain" is already over-
ridden by reality. This is what I mean by the possibility
of being too unrealistic. Abstraction is one thing, leaving
off reality is another. It's too bad that anime's idea of a
"plain" abstraction leads directly to a major component of
reality (i.e. white people). Actually, it's kind of fun to
consider what Street Fighter would look like if anime
"plain" was the appearance of a black person. We'd have a
bunch of Africans in all these Japanese fighting games.
Oh well. Guess that's what happens when one's idea
of "plain" is what just happens to look like a white per-
son.
>>> Site basis, please. Three years of art courses talking here,
>>> and each and every one of them ramming home the point that
>>> exparamentation and deviation from the established techniques are what
>>> make artists great. Would you consider the works of Picaso nothing
>>> more than a "technical experiment," then? Or do you not consider the
>>> Cubist style true art?
>>
>> That's idiotic.
>
> Thank you. And I hope your mother dies in a freak boating
> accident.
> There.
> Are we done flaming now? Can we get back to the discussion?
> Or are you just going to keep moaning like this in you next followup?
> (and color me sideblind but I think you're the only one here
> who thinks the whole NG is against me, Calahan)
My mother has nothing to do with this discussion. How-
ever, whether your learned views on art are idiotic is en-
tirely relevant.
>> If that were truly all that it takes
>> to be a great artist, then we'd have more great and famous
>> artists in this world than we could ever begin to count.
>> What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
>> represent reality. Originality just happens to be neces-
>> sary to this basic end at times, since one often has to be
>> original in order to portray an as yet unportrayed aspect
>> of human existence.
>
> Again, SITE BASIS. From what source are you gettting this
> from?
You want a site basis? Try simple logic, m'boy. If all
that anyone had to do to become a great artist was be differ-
ent, then I could become as famous a master as Salvador Dali
by pissing random patterns onto the sidealk and attributing
bogus meaning to them. Hey, no one's done it before.
> You're getting lied to. "Originality just happens to be neces-
> sary" my ARSE. It's escential. It's the core of creativity. If what
> you're producing isn't original, if it isn't something unique unto your
> own style, then it's repitition. Or Extreme Studios.
The core of creativity isn't originality. Strictly speak-
ing, there *is* no such thing as human originality. Not a sin-
gle person has ever had (nor will ever have) the ability to
create something from nothing. No one can produce anything
without impetus or influence from his environment. We're all
just passive creatures who react to reality in individual ways.
Also, I'll take a good unoriginal work over a weak unique
work any day. Ever hear John Cage's _4' 33"_? If you haven't
it's a musical "composition" in which there is nothing but si-
lence for four minutes and thirty-three seconds. That's cer-
tainly original; does that make it better than less original
works? Please answer the question, then explain yourself.
> "What makes an artist great is his ability to accurately
> represent reality," you say? Once again, I thrust cubism in your face.
> How is a painting of a nude woman which is simultaniously depicted
> from four different angles realist?
Among other things, it represents the full character of
the woman in ways that a less abstract painting could not.
Regular vision allows one to see a woman from a single angle,
but *in reality*, there is more to the woman than can be seen
with the naked eye (both figuratively and literally speak-
ing), and cubism portrays this reality by depicting the fe-
male from several angles at once. Next easy question.
>> "Three years of art courses talking here," indeed.
>> Looks like we've got *another* college boy on our hands.
>> Will the flood never end? (Rhetorical question.)
>
> [snicker] You must be near the end of your list of smokescreen
> rationalizations--you've stooped to personal insults. Hilarious. To
> think I almost passed over premium access... Oh, the irony.
My insult was only a response to *your* tacit insult,
which was that your having taken some art classes somehow
gives you intellectual superiority over anyone whom you
*think* has had less official training than yourself.
>>> Reality is subjective. In art, the artist can only _suggest_
>>> reality, not duplicate or facimilate it. The method he uses to suggest
>>> reality may not be to an individual's particualr liking...
>>
>> Reality is NOT subjective. It's our *individual per-
>> ceptions* that are subjective. Reality is what is, and it
>> does not change depending on who perceives it.
>
> Hmm. Interesting point. I give you that.
> BUT,
> Reality itself cannot be captured in art, only the artist's
> perception of reality--his interpritation of it. This interpritation
> is therefore an abstraction of reality, like I've been saying all
> along. Reality is impossible. The _suggestion_ of a reality is the
> basis of the visual arts.
That doesn't mean that one artist can't have a view of
reality that's more accurate than another's. (And I mean a
view in an abstract sense, NOT a concrete sense.)
Milo D. Cooper
> reality, independant of observers, has been obsolete for a while. Not only
> with quantum mechanics but with simple old Einstein's relativity. There
> are many experiments you can do that demonstrate observation altering
> reality.
Your going to have to elaborate on your position. It
does no one any good for you to merely drop in, dogmatize
right quick, then take off. I've never heard a good argu-
ment for the defeat of absolutism, not even from profes-
sional scientists with whom I've conversed on the subject,
so let's hear your opinions on the matter, please.
Rob Ghoul
Milo D. Cooper (mdco...@cts.com) wrote:
: There's only one level of realism. Anything above (or below)
: that level isn't realistic. Abstraction is *subordinate* to
: realism, not *superior* to it. When people start valuing abstrac-
: tion over realism, then their work becomes unrealistic, since ab-
: straction is the personal interpretation of reality in the first
: place, and *not* reality itself. Without reality, there *is* no
: abstraction. What else can there be about which to be abstract?
Hey man, I think that we all recognize the reality...
How many white guys do you see out there in real life chucking magic
fireballs? None.
Thus, Ryu -must- be Japanese.
Anyway some random thoughts...
Fei Long looks like a real Chinese guy because he's supposed to look like
Bruce Lee, who was a real Chinese (and Chinese looking) guy.
Maybe to you Ryu has been looking more and more like a white man, but then,
I think the same of Michael Jackson, and no one denies that he's real. If
your contention that art has to be based on specific reality (see the "an
artist can't draw a picture of a mountain without that mountain existing"
argument made later in the message I quoted) then how do you know that the
actual Japanese person Ryu was inspired by doesn't actually look like that?
Heck, a lot of my Japanese relatives look more hispanic than the way that
most Americans think Japanese should look, but that doesn't make them not
Japanese (unless... say, you don't think... nah....)
I dunno what you think makes for an Asian appearance. My guess is that
you're looking for a stereotypical yellow peril view -- short, yellow skin,
and slanty eyes. Maybe high cheekbones as well. You're right, you aren't
going to see much of that in anime. The large eyes in anime don't fit into
the Asian stereotype, so my guess is that because you aren't seeing massive
slantiness, you're assuming that it's a European look. I don't see it.
White people don't have big round eyes like that either. And as for skin
color... Most anglo-saxons (i.e. Irish, Scots, English, French, and German)
actually look pretty damn pink to me, and are tinted such in anime. Heck,
in real life, most white women try to make themselves even pinker through
the use of cosmetics. Height and high cheekbones aren't really discernable
in a cartoon, considering that height is relative and most cartoons aren't
normally drawn with cheeks. So... doesn't look Mongoloid, doesn't look
Caucasian ... I think your cultural bias is showing.
What I really want to know is how you can make a determination that a guy,
even a white guy, in a gi is ethnically and culturally a WASP. Unless maybe
that white guy is John Saxon or someone like that...
Rob
KrazyIvan
> : that level isn't realistic. Abstraction is *subordinate* to
> : realism, not *superior* to it. When people start valuing abstrac-
> : tion over realism, then their work becomes unrealistic, since ab-
> : straction is the personal interpretation of reality in the first
> : place, and *not* reality itself. Without reality, there *is* no
> : abstraction. What else can there be about which to be abstract?
>
>
> How many white guys do you see out there in real life chucking magic
> fireballs? None.
>
> Thus, Ryu -must- be Japanese.
>
> Anyway some random thoughts...
>
> Fei Long looks like a real Chinese guy because he's supposed to look like
> Bruce Lee, who was a real Chinese (and Chinese looking) guy.
OOPS!!! sorry to pick on you man,
but Bruce actually had a German mother!!!!
>
> Maybe to you Ryu has been looking more and more like a white man, but then,
> I think the same of Michael Jackson, and no one denies that he's real. If
> your contention that art has to be based on specific reality (see the "an
> artist can't draw a picture of a mountain without that mountain existing"
> argument made later in the message I quoted) then how do you know that the
> actual Japanese person Ryu was inspired by doesn't actually look like that?
Agreed!
>
> Heck, a lot of my Japanese relatives look more hispanic than the way that
> most Americans think Japanese should look, but that doesn't make them not
> Japanese (unless... say, you don't think... nah....)
Hahah!!..ive got relatives..and u wont BE able to tell where there from
so once again..good point...
>
> I dunno what you think makes for an Asian appearance. My guess is that
> you're looking for a stereotypical yellow peril view -- short, yellow skin,
> and slanty eyes. Maybe high cheekbones as well. You're right, you aren't
> going to see much of that in anime. The large eyes in anime don't fit into
> the Asian stereotype, so my guess is that because you aren't seeing massive
> slantiness, you're assuming that it's a European look. I don't see it.
> White people don't have big round eyes like that either. And as for skin
> color... Most anglo-saxons (i.e. Irish, Scots, English, French, and German)
> actually look pretty damn pink to me, and are tinted such in anime. Heck,
> in real life, most white women try to make themselves even pinker through
> the use of cosmetics. Height and high cheekbones aren't really discernable
> in a cartoon, considering that height is relative and most cartoons aren't
> normally drawn with cheeks. So... doesn't look Mongoloid, doesn't look
> Caucasian ... I think your cultural bias is showing.
Go look at my picture on my homepage..tell me where im from...
actually, i'll save you the trouble, you wont be able to tell...
I have VERY mixed heritage (portugese,S.african,Dutch) and
if that isnt enuff, my parents come from an island..AND!!!
im english born...so what does that make me?!?(besides ethnically
unpronounced?)
>
> What I really want to know is how you can make a determination that a guy,
> even a white guy, in a gi is ethnically and culturally a WASP. Unless maybe
> that white guy is John Saxon or someone like that...
>
> Rob--
I have to agree with Rob..this is a fantasy context..lets not lose our
marbles here...lets face it...kung fu never left china for hundreds of
years...the same with yoga from india, now if we assume that any yoga
practitioner can create magic flames, then we can also assume that this
not a fantasy game, but based on reality?!?! but it isnt...
Ryu is able to throw fire balls because the style he studied teaches to
bring forth a certain kind of power(notice ken can do it too!!!)
in the same way that Dhalsim is the inheritor of great power..all the
fighters use a certain "power" from their trained background,
and although the "world warriors" supposedly come from these places,
Ryu fights in tibet?!? Sagat is massive!!(good counter-balance to Adon
lithness) Zangief..russian wrestler?..well look at em..they are only
"characters" <---keyword here...an artists "imagined" concept,
stop whining...play the game!!!
+------------------------------------+=+--------------------------------------+
0 KrazyIvan 0
0 -lil guy with killer skillz 0
0 O================================================O 0
0 | o--------------------------------------------o | 0
0 | | www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/5698/ | | 0
0 | o--------------------------------------------o | 0
0 O================================================O 0
0 SFA v2.0: 0
0 A+ C+ c+ T r- f g--(!) m+(--) s v+ M n+:- o(++) 0
+------------------------------------+=+--------------------------------------+
Andrew Ryan Chang
In article <330147...@cts.com>, Milo D. Cooper <mdco...@cts.com> wrote:
>> Kenichiro Tanaka wrote:
>> Not to start another argument, but the idea that there is an absolute
>> reality, independant of observers, has been obsolete for a while. Not only
>> with quantum mechanics but with simple old Einstein's relativity. There
>> are many experiments you can do that demonstrate observation altering
>> reality.
>
> Your going to have to elaborate on your position. It
>does no one any good for you to merely drop in, dogmatize
>right quick, then take off. I've never heard a good argu-
>ment for the defeat of absolutism, not even from profes-
>sional scientists with whom I've conversed on the subject,
>so let's hear your opinions on the matter, please.
A real experiment with real results:
Setup two screens, one with a single slit and one with two slits
and one more with no slits. Pass an electron through the first screen,
and then the second so it strikes the third. As it is a single particle,
it has to go through one or the other slit, right? No, it actually
somehow goes through both, and makes a diffraction pattern (like waves).
However, set up an electron detector at one or both slits on the 2nd
screen, and the diffraction pattern vanishes, while the detector will
either register a full electron detection or none at all. That is,
attempting to observe the electron "makes" it a particle again.
Also, the nature of a very small particle is such that no
measurement of its position can be arbitrarily accurate without changing
its velocity, and the converse (measuring its speed changes its position)
is also true. Observing an object changes the object.
-Andrew, college boy (hoping desperately that I haven't gotten this all
wrong).
--
"_The Coconut of Quendor:_ Orkan of Thriff has suggested that if all
the 'Shards of The One True Coconut' and 'Vials of The Blessed Milk' were
gathered in one place, they would form a stack nine bloits high."
-Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
Geoff Price
In article <5dthf7$2...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, arc...@sfu.ca (Andrew Ryan Chang)
wrote:
> In article <330147...@cts.com>, Milo D. Cooper <mdco...@cts.com> wrote:
> > Your going to have to elaborate on your position. It
> >does no one any good for you to merely drop in, dogmatize
> >right quick, then take off. I've never heard a good argu-
> >ment for the defeat of absolutism, not even from profes-
> >sional scientists with whom I've conversed on the subject,
> >so let's hear your opinions on the matter, please.
>
> A real experiment with real results:
>
[...]
>
> Also, the nature of a very small particle is such that no
> measurement of its position can be arbitrarily accurate without changing
> its velocity, and the converse (measuring its speed changes its position)
> is also true. Observing an object changes the object.
>
> -Andrew, college boy (hoping desperately that I haven't gotten this all
> wrong).
First off, let's not get carried away with this "everyone's a college boy"
thing. If one need not be enrolled in a college to qualify, it stands to
reason that, conversely, the simple act of being enrolled does not somehow
"magically" qualify you for the title. Let's leave the labelling to those
who have the intellectual acumen to apply it correctly.
AFAIK, the ultimate determinism of the universe is still a subject of
debate in the QM world (with HUP an overarching limitation on observation,
of course). Reality does kind of fall apart down there. The math
certainly does not promise a safe universe, but as long as we can hold out
hope that quantum effects do not scale well, objectivists should be able
to sleep relatively soundly, with only the prattling of postmodernists to
cause sporadic molar grinding.
Hey, that's it, let's have a big agsf pomo debate!
--
Geoff Price
Ge...@CalibanMW.com
Official agsf College Boy Answer Guy
KEVIN HECKMAN
[ Quoting Kenichiro Tanaka to All ]
KT> Not to start another argument, but the idea that there is an absolute
KT> reality, independant of observers, has been obsolete for a while. Not
Eh, not really. There are plenty of reasons for why an absolute reality
is necessary. For example, the equations of quantum mechanics are
meaningless without absolute reality. For a theory (such as QM) to be
true, truth has to exist, and for truth to exist, there have to be
absolutes.
Absolutely. =)
KT> only with quantum mechanics but with simple old Einstein's relativity.
KT> There are many experiments you can do that demonstrate observation
KT> altering reality.
Such as...?
[--- ron...@bigfoot.com, ULC minister, Pope, etc. fnord. ---]
[--- SF2Code v1.0: t++ c T r-(+) f+ g++ m+ s+ v+ M+ n+:- o@+ ---]
... Your local police are armed and dangerous.
cclayton
I'm not getting invloved in this argument because I am an Alpha scrub. I
talk to people every day who don't even stop to consider that there
might be intricacies beyond what they already know. Sometimes I hate
stupidity, and that's fine, but it's very wrong to hate a _person_ that
is stupid.
I just wanted to point out that Chun-li, overall, got hurt by the Alpha
series. The leotard Chun-li just isn't the same as the old classic
Chun-li, in general appearance. The new/old pantyhose Chun-li in Alpha2
is a little bit better, but the face is not the same. The Yata! and
Gomene! just doesn't seem sincere somehow. She seems hell bent on revenge.
And the Alpha2 mug shot! Hayzeus! She is ugly in that picture. The other
problem is that good players hate her since she was too strong. This
has permanently marred the character.
I bring this up, because I was recently thinking about fantasy women.
Chun-li was the original (for me) and in my opinion, is still the best.
All the others, like Cammy, Mai, Morrigan, Sakura, and whoever, are
overly stylized in appearance or character, or have something else that's
wrong with them. The idea is, it's a _fantasy_. Someone may say that
Chun-li is a serious character, like Zangief, or Sagat, or Guile, but
even if this is the case, I think it's the wrong route to take for her.
This character is put in the game to appeal to whatever nameless thing(s)
in the male mind make a character like this attractive. So: If we
are going to say, 'There is a 20 year old Chinese girl who is cute and
is beating the crap out of bad people,' why stop there? Why say, ok that
is possible, but now we have to make her very serious, and a little
obsessed, and rude to old people, (^_^) and she needs to frown a lot.
Since none of this is really possible anyway, why not make a character
that is both strong and vulnerable? Determined and innocent? Aggressive
and compassionate? This is what I would have done with Chun-li. For
those who say, this character would be absolutely shallow, or too
simple, I say that they could have just left out the details. (like
they always do) Drawing the graphics in a certain way sets those
things (pertaining to the graphics) in stone.
(shrug)
Casey
Zvi
Can we stop with the 'I wish I could meet a girl as cute as this
animated one before me' stuff? Maybe if you spent a little more time in
the daylight and a little less time locked up in a basement or something,
you would not talk about how you would make a fictional being strong,
vulnerable, determined, innocent, aggressive and compassionate. I love
the game as much as the next guy (or perhaps girl), but hey!.....there is
aa whole world out there.
Andrew Ryan Chang
Geoff Price <Ge...@CalibanMW.com> wrote:
>In article <5dthf7$2...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, arc...@sfu.ca (Andrew Ryan Chang)
>> wrong).
>
>First off, let's not get carried away with this "everyone's a college boy"
>thing. If one need not be enrolled in a college to qualify, it stands to
>reason that, conversely, the simple act of being enrolled does not somehow
>"magically" qualify you for the title. Let's leave the labelling to those
>who have the intellectual acumen to apply it correctly.
well, darn.
>AFAIK, the ultimate determinism of the universe is still a subject of
>debate in the QM world (with HUP an overarching limitation on observation,
>of course). Reality does kind of fall apart down there. The math
How about objectivists vs general relativity? There is no sense
in talking about motion without a set of coordinates to work with; and
since two different coordinate systems give different answers about
motion, it seems to me like objectivism is on the losing end of the
contest here.
>certainly does not promise a safe universe, but as long as we can hold out
>hope that quantum effects do not scale well, objectivists should be able
>to sleep relatively soundly, with only the prattling of postmodernists to
>cause sporadic molar grinding.
Hey, don't we *want* quantum effects to scale well? I was looking
forward to getting a quantum computer -- factoring large numbers in
polynomial time is the stuff dreams[1] are made of!
[1] or possibly nightmares; depending on your views about the need for
RSA-style encryption.
PS Wow, I'm really off-topic here. ObAGSF: What's
the code for Sheng Long?
--
"_Twelve Flatheads:_ As every student of history knows, the Twelve Flatheads
were the greater part of the Thirteen Significant Accomplishments of King
Mumberthrax the Insignificant."
-Encyclopedia Frobozzica.
cclayton
> Can we stop with the 'I wish I could meet a girl as cute as this
>animated one before me' stuff? Maybe if you spent a little more time in
>the daylight and a little less time locked up in a basement or something,
>you would not talk about how you would make a fictional being strong,
>vulnerable, determined, innocent, aggressive and compassionate. I love
>the game as much as the next guy (or perhaps girl), but hey!.....there is
>aa whole world out there.
Fuck off
Buschwazi
These artists just think white people look better.
Just remember that in japan "full" eyes are a sign of beauty.
Most orientals are short with very unimpessive physiques.
They think white people are are more attractive, thus all
the "white looking" japanese characters.
They think black people are thugs.
And arabians wear pointy toed shoes.
All indians know yoga or worship some tiger or something...
Thailandhese people look like big ol Latinos etc..
\
Leon Noteware
You sure must know alot about orientals..saying that "most are short
with unimpressive features" don't leak over your personal feeling to the
net please if that is in fact what they are.
Scott Lost my Llama Thompson
For those who haven't been keeping score, here's the arguement
so far:
Milo: I'm right, you're wrong!
Scott: No, _I'm_ right, _you're_ wrong!
Milo: NO, I'M right, YOU'RE wrong!!
Scott: NO, I'M right, YOU'RE wrong!!
And now, our heart-felt and anti-climatic conclussion.
In article <330141...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>
>>> Really quickly: abstraction is the observation of re-
>>> ality without providing specific examples of it.
>>
>> That may be Webster's definition, but it's not the
definition
>> ofthe technical term used in communication design. When we're
talking
>> about a rendering of some form, abstraction is the degree to which
the
>> image is simplified and/or the methods used to exagerate it.
>
> That's what I said, smart guy. Instead of providing an
>example of the reality itself, one presents it in the form
>of one's individual perception.
Ah. So we can change our stories in the middle ofhte debate
now?
>>> So, to these artists, looking "ordinarily" Japanese
>>> meant looking "ordinarily" white? I'm not saying that
>>> this is an invalid form of abstraction, but I *would*
>>> like to be sure in my observation that that's a big part
>>> of anime.
>>
>> No, I mean to them, Japanese-looking is the rule, and other
>> races the exception. So they draw the Japanese characters to look
the
>> simplest and most basic--a sort of standard design. Using that as
>> their starting point, they add features to this standard design, and
>> get Americans, or Chinese, or whatever.
>> Look at Ryu's mug shot in SFA2. Yes, I know it's painful,
but
>> bear with me. Pretty simplistic. a three-line jawline with two
eyes,
>> a nose, and a mouth stuck on it. Contrast with Charlie or Rolento.
>> Much more detail, because on top of the "basic" design of the face,
>> they have to add extra features to denote them as being foreigners.
>
> You mean, what anime artists call a "plain" look just
>happens to resemble a white American.
Close, actually. The 'plain' look is such a blank slate that
the viewer tends to identify it as his own race. I refer you to the
"Smiley Face" example I ran across a few posts back.
> They don't care that
>the characters don't actually look Japanese, as long as
>they look "plain," i.e. they look like white people. Gee,
>it's too bad that their concept of "plain" is already over-
>ridden by reality. This is what I mean by the possibility
>of being too unrealistic. Abstraction is one thing, leaving
>off reality is another. It's too bad that anime's idea of a
>"plain" abstraction leads directly to a major component of
>reality (i.e. white people). Actually, it's kind of fun to
>consider what Street Fighter would look like if anime
>"plain" was the appearance of a black person. We'd have a
>bunch of Africans in all these Japanese fighting games.
I refer you to my last paragraph on the subject, the one
refering to Ghoat in the Shell, where I clearly stated that when
Americans showed up in the movie to contrast against the 'plain'-styled
Japanese, it was very easy to see who was from what country.
Relativity, in a strange, contorted way.
>>> That's idiotic.
>>
>> Thank you. And I hope your mother dies in a freak boating
>> accident.
>> There.
>> Are we done flaming now? Can we get back to the discussion?
>> Or are you just going to keep moaning like this in you next
followup?
>> (and color me sideblind but I think you're the only one here
>> who thinks the whole NG is against me, Calahan)
>
> My mother has nothing to do with this discussion. How-
>ever, whether your learned views on art are idiotic is en-
>tirely relevant.
I see. The fact that you shove personal attack at me and
expect me to accept it as fact was somewhat confusing to me, but I
think I've sorted it all out now. You're full of it. Makes perfect
sense.
> If all
>that anyone had to do to become a great artist was be differ-
>ent, then I could become as famous a master as Salvador Dali
>by pissing random patterns onto the sidealk and attributing
>bogus meaning to them. Hey, no one's done it before.
Pissing's been done. So's being nailed to a car and being shot
with a revolver. And sitting in a room with electrodes wired to you
and letting people come through the room one at a time, knowing each
and every one could kill you and get away with it. It's all been done.
:) Someone thinks it's art, and it fulfills the expectations of its
creator.
>> Again, SITE BASIS. From what source are you gettting this
>> from?
>
> You want a site basis? Try simple logic, m'boy.
And NOW we get to the heart of the matter, don't we? Facts,
sources, and established technique lose out every time to the edicts of
Milo. It's obvious you have no background or knowledge in the area
you're trying to discuss. Your entire arguement is built from smoke
and has no foundation besides your own insistance that it's right. And
when that's finally weeded out of you, you insist your own created
arguements are more substatial than a University curiculum on the
subject? You're title of pseudo-intellectual is well deserved. I see
no reason to continue this debate when I can go to the University
newsgroups and talk about the subject with someone who knows what he's
talking about.
But before I go and stick you in my killfile, you asked me to
answer a question...
> Also, I'll take a good unoriginal work over a weak unique
>work any day. Ever hear John Cage's _4' 33"_? If you haven't
>it's a musical "composition" in which there is nothing but si-
>lence for four minutes and thirty-three seconds. That's cer-
>tainly original; does that make it better than less original
>works? Please answer the question, then explain yourself.
No, actually I hadn't heard about it. It's intriguing. The
point of the composition would seemingly be, then, to make the listener
aware of his experiencing four minutes and thirty-three seconds. It
makes the listener realize the passage of time. Most original. It's
not music, though.
But, it _is_ art, for the reasons stated above. It's just
art that only another artist could appriciate. ;)
Matta ne!
Buschwazi
Hey I have plenty of Japanese freinds.
\
Buschwazi
This is my personal opinion, and it is a physical anomoly.
Orientals are generally more petite than all of the other races.
Granted their diet effects their growth; however, those orientals
who do eat our chemically treated foods still do not have the muscle
mass or size of blacks and whites. I am not trying to be descriminatory.
Just think long and hard at this general physique/body chart:
1. blacks
2. whites
3. slavic
4. latino
5. east indian
6. american indian
7. orientals
Body wise orientals just don't cut the mustard..Although you may have a
few mutants here and there.
\
Mat Findlay
rgh...@bigdipper.umd.edu (Rob Ghoul) wrote:
>Hey man, I think that we all recognize the reality...
>How many white guys do you see out there in real life chucking magic
>fireballs? None.
Hey... That's new... I've never heard that one...
Just because the game involves unrealistic things like fireballs, does
that mean that all other aspects of realism should be thrown out of
the window as well?
This reminds me of the time I argued the realism of chain combos.
Mat Findlay
fer...@scsn.net (Ferral <fWo>) wrote:
>> >>So anyway, that's what Thai boxing is about. In short, the character
>> >>of Adon is a more realistic Thai boxer-looking character, being small,
>> >>thin, but 100%, well defined muscle, whereas Sagat is not really
>> >>realistic at all, being a huge monster musclebound oaf.
>>
> However you are not accounting for genetic variances. Just because
>someone is tall doesn't mean they can't learn Muay Thai and can't be a
>Thailand native. Genetic mutations and variances happen all the time. And
>if someone has the drive to do their best, they could learn Muay Thai. I
>understand your need to be realistic about the game, but Sagat was the
>boss character of SF1, and boss characters tend to be on the tall side.
>You don't see many Street Fighting gangs led by Punky Brewster.
Native Thai's tend not to be 7 feet tall. In fact, it's rare for a
human being to be 7 feet tall, and if you happen to find one, I'm
willing to guarantee that he's not a native Thai. Of course, Sagat
could very well be a guy who moved to Thailand (Or Siam, whichever you
prefer) in order to further his skill in that particular art.
And I never said that tall people can't ever learn Muay Thai. At 6'1",
I seem to be on the tall side at a Muay Thai gym. What I had said that
a guy who spends his life training to be a Muay Thai master will not
be built like SFA Sagat. He would be built more like SF2 Sagat, or SFA
Adon. Muay Thai training focuses on endurance and technique. This
training would sculpt muscle, but not build it to the point of SFA
Sagat. Of course, he might do building exercises on the side, but I
find that hard to believe for a guy who's so obsessive about his art.
And need I mention the differences in size according to the timeline?
Sagat starts out tall and somewhat skinny, gets huge, then gets skinny
again...
This doesn't keep me from using him every chance I get, though...
Andrew Ryan Chang
Buschwazi <busc...@aol.com> wrote:
>This is my personal opinion, and it is a physical anomoly.
>Orientals are generally more petite than all of the other races.
>Granted their diet effects their growth; however, those orientals
>who do eat our chemically treated foods still do not have the muscle
>mass or size of blacks and whites. I am not trying to be descriminatory.
>Just think long and hard at this general physique/body chart:
>
>1. blacks
>2. whites
>3. slavic
>4. latino
>5. east indian
>6. american indian
>7. orientals
... um, yeah. Sure. (BTW, who but you differentiates between
"Slavic" and "white"?) IMHO, the preponderance of world-class athletes of
one race or another means little; you are making a statement about the
physiques of all people. Secondly, height != general fitness.
thirdly, *plonk*.
--
Dirt Fork Land Cup Zero
Fish Gorgeous One Tray Ball
Coke Two Chip Light Zone
Net Three Smile Eagle Shadow
Image-A
In article <5e0rg3$h...@hermes.acs.unt.edu>, sdt...@jove.acs.unt.edu
says...
>
>
> For those who haven't been keeping score, here's the arguement
>so far:
>
>Milo: I'm right, you're wrong!
>Scott: No, _I'm_ right, _you're_ wrong!
>Milo: NO, I'M right, YOU'RE wrong!!
>Scott: NO, I'M right, YOU'RE wrong!!
>
> And now, our heart-felt and anti-climatic conclussion.
>
>
>
>In article <330141...@cts.com>, mdco...@cts.com says...
>>work any day. Ever hear John Cage's _4' 33"_? If you haven't
>>it's a musical "composition" in which there is nothing but si-
>>lence for four minutes and thirty-three seconds. That's cer-
>>tainly original; does that make it better than less original
>>works? Please answer the question, then explain yourself.
>
name> wrote a poem called "Silence" that goes pretty much like this:
/*you get the picture*/
So, I was wondering which one came first?
> No, actually I hadn't heard about it. It's intriguing. The
>point of the composition would seemingly be, then, to make the listener
>aware of his experiencing four minutes and thirty-three seconds. It
>makes the listener realize the passage of time. Most original. It's
>not music, though.
> But, it _is_ art, for the reasons stated above. It's just
>art that only another artist could appriciate. ;)
>
>
> Matta ne!
>
>--
>- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson,
>
>
Image-A
--
So is "SlingBlade" a sort of Satsui no "Forest Gump" or what?
Allen Jameson Klein
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 12-Feb-97 Re: HEISENBERG IS A
WHITE, .. by Geoff Pr...@CalibanMW.co
> thing. If one need not be enrolled in a college to qualify, it stands to
> reason that, conversely, the simple act of being enrolled does not somehow
> "magically" qualify you for the title. Let's leave the labelling to those
> who have the intellectual acumen to apply it correctly.
Are you fucking serious?
Milo gets some slack 'cause he's an old timer -- but it's a one-man umbrella.
In all other cases, attempt to use the term "college boy" only
demonstrates that you are an asshole... no 'intellectual acumen' about
it.
al klein, the college girl
Allen Jameson Klein
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 13-Feb-97 Re: To MILO: My Friend
look.. by ccla...@bga.com
> Chun-li was the original (for me) and in my opinion, is still the best.
> All the others, like Cammy, Mai, Morrigan, Sakura, and whoever, are
> overly stylized in appearance or character, or have something else that's
> wrong with them.
SS2 Nakoruru ain't bad. #2 behind SF2 chun in my book.
al
Buschwazi
I didn't understand you.
Anyway I was just making an observation from my experience.
hmm...I did write slavic huh?
oops..sue me.
\
Geoff Price
In article <Un10kzW00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, Allen Jameson Klein
<aj...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 12-Feb-97 Re: HEISENBERG IS A
> WHITE, .. by Geoff Pr...@CalibanMW.co
> > First off, let's not get carried away with this "everyone's a college boy"
> > thing. If one need not be enrolled in a college to qualify, it stands to
> > reason that, conversely, the simple act of being enrolled does not somehow
> > "magically" qualify you for the title. Let's leave the labelling to those
> > who have the intellectual acumen to apply it correctly.
>
> Are you fucking serious?
Um, no.
> Milo gets some slack 'cause he's an old timer -- but it's a one-man umbrella.
No one gets slack. One can *have* slack, but that's not usually a good thing.
> In all other cases, attempt to use the term "college boy" only
> demonstrates that you are an asshole... no 'intellectual acumen' about
> it.
Well, "asshole" requires additional evidence, IMHO. "College boy" in
political contexts is tired and routine, and generally indicates that the
slur-slinger is relatively flame-challenged (note political correctism.)
--
Geoff Price
Ge...@CalibanMW.com
Milo D. Cooper
> Andrew Ryan Chang wrote:
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>> Your going to have to elaborate on your position. It
>> does no one any good for you to merely drop in, dogmatize
>> right quick, then take off. I've never heard a good argu-
>> ment for the defeat of absolutism, not even from profes-
>> sional scientists with whom I've conversed on the subject,
>> so let's hear your opinions on the matter, please.
>
> A real experiment with real results:
>
> [...]
>
> Also, the nature of a very small particle is such that no
> measurement of its position can be arbitrarily accurate without changing
> its velocity, and the converse (measuring its speed changes its position)
> is also true. Observing an object changes the object.
I missed this thread (thanks to my horrible ISP). I'm
tempted to point out that the inability to measure some as-
pect of reality without changing it doesn't mean that that
aspect is not definite, but I'd like to read the rest of
Chang's post. I can't seem to find it via search engine;
I'd appreciate it if someone would re-post it.
Buschwazi
yippie..more rambling..
\