Skill improvement or plagarism? SF skills today
MCTek
better than you, and fighting games is no different. However, looking back
at my years of street fighting, I realized that 90% of my skills came from
ripping good players off!! It wasn't practicing, it was almost like I'm
paying a quarter so I can watch how the pros are beating me up. Then I'll
do the same stuff on my friends. Then my friends on their friends. Until
everyone does the same thing.
Everyone is aware of this right? People watch the Sabertooth combo once
and now it's hard to see anything new done by the character. I haven't
played against an original Cyclops EVER. How many A3 Zangiefs have I seen
whiff a jumping roundhouse and FAB as soon as they land? The street
fighting public consists of 1% pros that's thinking up stuff, and 99% that's
copying it.
Everytime I look at the Alpha 3 machine, and
Zangief/Chunli/Ryu/Gen/Rolento/ Akuma/Rose is on there. What Zangief?
X-Zangief. What Chunli? X-Chunli. What Ryu? V-Ryu. A-Gen. X-Rolento.
V-Akuma. X-Rose.
Short short forward hadoken. Jab jab axe kick. Jab jab c. forward
baton twirlX3. Cross up forward jab short forward lvl 2 rushing super level
1 air catch.
I see these combos everyday.
Of course this newsgroup and the arcades are forums for trading SF
knowledge. I appreciate Daigo's guy combo because I don't think I would
have figured it out. I don't expect people to go out and think up every
combo by themselves, but IMO leeching off of pros is the wrong way to go
about getting better at SF.
Maybe just for a week we'll all pick random characters? Maybe we'll try
to press jab when we normally would have pressed roundhouse? I'm sure we
would all bee pleasantly surprised, and maybe even a little bit proud when
we got better all by ourselves.
-MCTek
Kid Vid
-=> I invented the fireball trap <=-
"Fell how weak you truly are!" -Kid Vid
Michael Basus
> I totally agree with MCTek here. A lot of the stuff people use is stolen from
> other people.
You can't avoid 'taking' from other people. It's not really stealing, 'cause they used it
in front of you and exposed it to everyone watching. If someone wanted to have a
technique that was only theirs, they'd have to never use it, or save it for a tournament
or something. Which is pretty unlikely. And you can't be expected to learn all the
combos on your own! No one does that. Most players maybe think up one or two of their
own, but the rest they learn from others, and there's nothing 'wrong' with that. I
disagree that there's a 1% out there that think up nearly all the combos. i'd be
surprised if any one person thought up more than 3 or 4 worthy combos of their own for any
given game. What -is- 'wrong' though is using a character after you see someone else use
him/her successfully, and using it the exact same way. If you already used, let's say,
V-Gouki, and after the Nationals you just incorporated Daigo's combos into your fighting
style, that'd be fine, IMHO. No successful player out there goes on anything over 50% of
his own stuff. At least 50% is learned from others.
-Mike
Kao Megura
<jump...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The easiest way to get better at anything is to practice with those
> better than you, and fighting games is no different. However, looking back
> at my years of street fighting, I realized that 90% of my skills came from
> ripping good players off!! It wasn't practicing, it was almost like I'm
> paying a quarter so I can watch how the pros are beating me up. Then I'll
> do the same stuff on my friends. Then my friends on their friends. Until
> everyone does the same thing.
Well, if something works, it's hard not to incorporate it into your strategy.
> Everyone is aware of this right? People watch the Sabertooth combo once
> and now it's hard to see anything new done by the character. I haven't
> played against an original Cyclops EVER. How many A3 Zangiefs have I seen
> whiff a jumping roundhouse and FAB as soon as they land? The street
> fighting public consists of 1% pros that's thinking up stuff, and 99% that's
> copying it.
I think this is more a matter of the challenge these people get. If you
use the same technique / strategy, as long as it works, you're unlikely to
tweak with it much. But if you keep getting waylaid by people, you're
gonna find something else / come up with something new. In my experiences,
all VS Kens are played the same, but then again, these people win a hell of
a lot with Ken as well in most cases.
> Of course this newsgroup and the arcades are forums for trading SF
> knowledge. I appreciate Daigo's guy combo because I don't think I would
> have figured it out. I don't expect people to go out and think up every
> combo by themselves, but IMO leeching off of pros is the wrong way to go
> about getting better at SF.
Actually, isn't it best to learn by imitation, then start doing your own
thing? I didn't like Zangief much until I kept losing to a great HF Zan
player. Once I started playing like him, I was able to minimize my losses,
and from there, I started coming up with new stuff both to keep my edge and
keep myself interested in Z. Leeching off the pros isn't bad at all, I
think, as long as your goal isn't to mimic them completely.
> Maybe just for a week we'll all pick random characters? Maybe we'll try
> to press jab when we normally would have pressed roundhouse? I'm sure we
> would all bee pleasantly surprised, and maybe even a little bit proud when
> we got better all by ourselves.
Hey, that's the way to go. Pick someone you usually don't, try a strategy
you don't normally use, and go at it. Lord knows that seeing an offensive
V-Charlie is much more fun to fight against than the legions of X Ryus out
there.
= Kao Megura =
"I don't like Dan at all. I've come to the conclusion that
I really despise the shotos, even half-assed ones." - Ultima
"There are people that have been called gifted students, based on
tests and other means of evaluating one's talents. How do I know?
I am one." - Onaje Everett
"DaN iS Da MaN!!!@#@$%!!! He beats BlAnKa for Fr33!" - BoB
Bathe in Dan's glory at: i.am/kao
Tell me why Dan rules at: kmegura (at) hotmail (dot) com
WhoaMoses
try to keep things interesting by mastering ALL the characters instead of just
two or three. I've almost done this in MvsC....only MegaMan, CapCom, and Jin
left! (am i sad or what?(
SefirosuLB
use him... like me ^_^
>You can't avoid 'taking' from other people. It's not really stealing, 'cause
>they used it
>in front of you and exposed it to everyone watching. If someone wanted to
>have a
>technique that was only theirs, they'd have to never use it, or save it for a
>tournament
>or something. Which is pretty unlikely. And you can't be expected to learn
>all the
>combos on your own! No one does that.
It seems that is true.
> Most players maybe think up one or two of their
>own, but the rest they learn from others, and there's nothing 'wrong' with
>that.
Yea, that's also true.
> I
>disagree that there's a 1% out there that think up nearly all the combos.
>i'd be
>surprised if any one person thought up more than 3 or 4 worthy combos of
>their own for any
>given game.
I agree with the above statement.
>What -is- 'wrong' though is using a character after you see someone else use
>him/her successfully, and using it the exact same way.
I know "some" people who still/have do(ne) that.
> If you already used, let's say,
>V-Gouki, and after the Nationals you just incorporated Daigo's combos into
>your fighting
>style, that'd be fine, IMHO. No successful player out there goes on anything
>over 50% of
>his own stuff. At least 50% is learned from others.
Yea, that seems okay.
______________________
Dan GC
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
http://i.am/guardiancloud
UNDER MAJOR CONSTRUCTION!
"You're funny, but keep it up and you'll
just piss me off." - Xenogears ~ Fei
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Akuma99999
can't use what you don't yet understand, right?). To have a greater range of
styles and techniques at one's disposal, you have to learn more. There are two
ways to learn more:
1) Experiment: Create combos, test techniques, simply find out *what works*.
2) Follow the examples set by others: Read a FAQ, watch another person, or
watch what the CPU uses against you (you'd be surprised how much you didn't
know!)
Take this new knowledge and apply it, master it. You have now incorporated
new stuff into your fighting style. Does this mean you are plagiarising? Nah!
How else can you improve your game? Someone will see the way you play and
possibly learn from you, and the cycle will continue.
No two people think exactly the same; therefore, no two people will fight
exactly the same. (But if they did, they'd get a double KO every time! :)
JB Gainz
people actually event combos. I mean, some combos are so universal that the
only difference is using a foward instead of a strong.. or something very small
like that. I know people might think their fake missed Roundhouse into a FAB
is original, but I kinda figured it to be a natural Gief technique, and I
don't really play him. Stuff like short into fireball are so basic and can be
found in any SFA strategy guide (I don't buy em, just like to read the
backgrounds to characters). Though juggling adds new circumstances to SF, so I
imagine some new combos can be made, but I doubt anyone can tell me a Ryu combo
I have not done.
Anyone got any "original combos" of their own they don't mind sharing. I
really would like to see if they are different from anything I know.. new
characters of course will be totally unknown to me.
Kid Vid
>like that. I know people might think their fake missed Roundhouse into a
FAB
>is original, but I kinda figured it to be a natural Gief technique, and I
I remember when I first saw Gief used effectively, waaay back in SF2 where
ticks exsisted. It has an infamous name here, and we always smile and think
back on the good ol' days of Gief cheeze. Here that move is called "The
Early Kick". My friend would jump and roundhouse early in his
jump...Normally you'd get get by it or block it just as he landed...and
wammo! You go a'spinnin'. Of course I was a Ken player back in those days,
and I learned that my roundhouse kicked his out the air almost every time,
so it became a pain for Mr. Gief to get in.
I may not have any original comboes, but I have some tactics that I know
abound everywhere, but I haven't seen anyone else use. Examples:
With Mr. Akuma on the VS games, give them an uppercut and dash to the
opposite side as they are falling and uppercut them again, repeat once more
since it happens so fast they normally fall for it again, and the last time
they are falling, they KNOW which way to block now, but alas, they fall into
the waiting arms of a Raging Demon.
Similarly with Venom, if I ensnare them in webbing and launch them, I do my
lp,sk,mp,mk + fierce Venom fang. As they are falling, I look at their
joystick... If they aren't attacking on the way down, I jump up and air
throw them. If they have pressed an attack button, I dash back and do the
Venom web super. Or sometimes I wait in the corner for them and hit them
with a low attack as they normally don't expect that either...It depends on
the feel of the person I'm playing as to what I do next...
JB Gainz
>I may not have any original comboes, but I have some tactics that I know
>abound everywhere, but I haven't seen anyone else use. Examples:
>
>With Mr. Akuma on the VS games,
Thanks for you imput, but I was talking about SF. I think the Versus games are
full of oportunities for original combos, because the game is like bug city.
To many infinites and such, leave too many opportunies for cheesy combos..
though I must ammit your Akuma combo will be apart of my Arsenal for now on....
thanks Vid.
JB GAINZ
Viscant
>people actually event combos.
YES!
The Triple Option in MvC is not just the Triple Option, it's "Viscant's Triple
Option!" (exclamation point required.) J/K, but that's one of the few I
actually came up with. I think that's how most combos do actually come into
general practice. Something that already works, so at no risk, I just modified
it and made it even better, then made a really big deal of it, and--for
awhile--everybody thought I'd been saving this trick for some special
tournament, when really I ripped it from Mike Z's infinite that I never could
properly get to work. But it's still mine.
Some people even have enough skills that they get an entire abusive feature of
the game named after them. Like "Valle CCs." I think there was a movement in
the beginning to call Vega's VC the "Valle VC" but that died. Wonder why.
>Though juggling adds new circumstances to SF, so I
>imagine some new combos can be made, but I doubt anyone can tell me a Ryu
>combo
>I have not done.
Ryu was given a lot of cool stuff in A3 that took awhile to be learned. Like
the redizzy combo and such.
> Anyone got any "original combos" of their own they don't mind sharing.
We tend to share them all the time. After I see something it immediately
becomes part of the repetoire. I don't consider it plagiarism, I consider it
bettering myself through the hard work of others. People rip quite a bit of
stuff from me too, just because I, like the original poster suggested, don't
play top tier characters unless I'm trying to prove a point or need the win
desperately--and even then I may not get it. I regularly play Cody, Mika,
Juni, Birdie and the other losers, so my input on rarities seems to find its
way into FAQs WITHOUT my credit given. Damn it.
Basically, I think we should just remember from whom we got our stuff if it's
noteworthy, but it's not so-and-so's combo necessarily. I think that putting
names in combo FAQs is something definitely necessary though. Just common
courtesy.
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"Money, 'ho's and clothes."
MCTek
news:19990223052334...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
>> Anyone got any "original combos" of their own they don't mind sharing.
>
>We tend to share them all the time. After I see something it immediately
>becomes part of the repetoire. I don't consider it plagiarism, I consider
it
>bettering myself through the hard work of others. People rip quite a bit
of
>stuff from me too, just because I, like the original poster suggested,
don't
>play top tier characters unless I'm trying to prove a point or need the win
>desperately--and even then I may not get it. I regularly play Cody, Mika,
>Juni, Birdie and the other losers, so my input on rarities seems to find
its
>way into FAQs WITHOUT my credit given. Damn it.
Win desperately? Hee hee, I play Birdie and Bison when I want to win
desperately. I still don't think Juni is a loser. Back on topic, I hope in
the original post I didn't come off condemning everyone as a plagarist. I'm
merely saying that it seems the majority of the SF population feel the only
way to get better is to copy combos. No innovation, period. Viscant might
notice that after he showed off some cool Birdie stuff in the arcades,
people started playing Birdie more? I know I've seen the same thing happen
at my arcade.
>Basically, I think we should just remember from whom we got our stuff if
it's
>noteworthy, but it's not so-and-so's combo necessarily. I think that
putting
>names in combo FAQs is something definitely necessary though. Just common
>courtesy.
Uh huh, agree completely.
-MCTek
mdr...@webtv.net
that combo. There are so many SF players in the world that no one person
can be credited with this or that combo. Take for instance the famed
Valle custom combo. Sure he was the first one to use it on someone for
the first time for everyone to see and got credit for it, but whose to
say that some guy over in Japan didn't come up with it first.
I do agree with the idea that people should come up with there own way
of playing and not "copy" what is popular or "in". For instance there
are a lot of V-Akuma players out there so why not use X-Akuma? That is
if you are a Akuma player. I am not saying it is wrong to get a few
ideas from someone here and there, just don't make yourself a carbon
copy of someone.
JB Gainz
the only Capcom game I know of you can event combos.. I was talking about SF
games.. not Verus games.
But thanks anyway.
JB GAINZ
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> Thanks for the response.. but if you read closer.. I said Versus games are
like
> the only Capcom game I know of you can event combos.. I was talking about SF
> games.. not Verus games.
First off....it's Invent, not Event.
Second, you CAN invent combos in SF games. How do I know? I'm always
finding new combos on SSF2 for SNES. Linking combos provide a ton of
possibilities. I really wish I had been able to put out the FAQ that I was
going to do for pre-SF games. Instead, I have to settle for doing characters
one at a time. David Wright is compiling the list of links for characters
that I send him as I speak. When that list is done, you'll know what's up.
Until then, go to GameFAQs and look at both the Gamest and TZW Combo Lists.
Some of my combos....aren't on there...especially my Touch of Death combos.
:)
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Philippians 4:13
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JB Gainz
linkers in which originality only involves changing the order of special
moves. I don't consider linking a short kick with forward as oppose to
linking jab with a foward... that original. Original combos are like the one
Vid Kid told me with the Raging Demon in Versus games... now that is totally
original.
JB GAINZ..
... who gives a damn about spelling on a dumb news group. You type stuff fast
and never read it again!
Onaje Everett
They are when you don't know they exist.
While linking from a jab to strong is the same as linking from short to
strong, it could be that you didn't know that you could link from short to
strong and then found out that linking from short to strong was EASIER than
linking from jab to strong.
They can help...so they're worth posting.