***X-Men Vs. SF Review!!!***
Terry Freedman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---X-Men Vs. Street Fighter---By Capcom---Sega Saturn---Import---Tag Team
Battle Fighting Game---Requires 4-Meg RAM Cart---Review By Lee Freedman---
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, the wait is over...X-Men Vs. Street Fighter has come home to the
Saturn, and is ARCADE PERFECT!
---Game Information--------------------------------------------------------
The unbelievable has happened. Capcom has brought out X-Men Vs. SF, and
using the new 4-Meg RAM cart, has achieved a perfect home port. NOTHING
is missing; the animation is 100% intact, the sound quality is the best
ever seen on Saturn(perfect!), and the controls have been faithfully
ported over from the arcade original.
X-Men Vs. SF, the third in Capcom's fighting game series to feature Marvel
Comics's famous super hero characters, is also the first in the series to
feature a very unique team battle system, in which you pick two
characters, whom you are able to switch back and forth between during the
fight. Unlike other team fighters, this is a part of the gameplay, and
ANY load time would ruin it. Thankfully, there is NONE...in fact, the
only load times in the game are a brief intial load, and then THREE SECOND
loads between each fight. During each battle, characters are able to
perform a variety of combos and special moves, all of which have been
preserved from the arcade, including the tag-team super moves, where both
of your characters move in to attack your opponent. Massive characters
such as Juggernaut, who has never had all of his animation on a home
system before, now have EVERY single frame of animation from the arcade!
As for the sound, well, Capcom has never been able to get the sound quite
right on Saturn. In Street Fighter Alpha 2, for example, Capcom was also
able to achieve a perfect port, save one area: sound. Every character's
voice sounded muffled, unless a same character versus same character match
was fought. In X-Men Vs. SF, however, no matter who is fighting, the
sound is CRYSTAL CLEAR.
As the name implies, X-Men Vs. SF is a battle royal between characters
from both the X-Men and the Street Fighter series. Of the game's 17
playable characters, eight are from X-Men, and nine are from Street
Fighter. On the X-Men's side, Wolverine, Juggernaut, and Magneto return
from Capcom's previous fighter, Marvel Super Heroes. Cyclops and Storm
return from X-Men: Children Of The Atom, and Sabretooth, Rogue, and Gambit
are all new editions to the series. Sabretooth has moves similar to
Wolverine, along with a few of his own, including calling out his partner
Birdy to shoot the enemy with a huge machine gun. Gambit has some very
cool energy moves involving his playing cards, and Rogue has the ability
to kiss her opponent and "steal" one of their moves. From Street Fighter,
Ryu, Ken, Gouki(Akuma), Vega(M. Bison), Dhalsim, Charlie, Chun-Li, and
Zangief all return from Street Fighter Alpha 2, along with a few new moves
and more frames of animation. The only "new" edition is Cammy, who
returns from Super Street Fighter II X(Turbo). The game's boss is the
mighty Apocalypse, who takes up the entire screen. You don't fight him as
you would another character; instead, you must use your team to attack his
gigantic frame, specifically his head and his arm! After you've gone
through six fights against the other opponents, and taken out Apocalypse
on the seventh, you then have one more challenge: Depending on which
member of your team beat Apocalypse, you must use him or her to take out
your own partner! Only then will you be treated to the endings...!
---Review------------------------------------------------------------------
---Graphics---
The graphics in X-Men Vs. SF are fantastic--they're arcade perfect! All
of the arcade's colors, backgrounds, and spectacular animations found in
the arcade are present, which is something that has never been done
before. It's quite an amazing experience when you first see it! (^_^;)
---Sound---
FINALLY, the sound on a Capcom Saturn fighter has been ported PERFECTLY!
All of the voice samples, as mentioned above, are extremely clear, and all
of the game's musical scores are perfectly ported, changing during the
fight when a character is defeated and a new fighter jumps out.
---Control---
Control is something that you never have to worry about when playing one
of Capcom's great fighting games. X-Men Vs. SF plays like a combination
of Marvel Super Heroes, having chain combos and very cool-looking super
moves, and Street Fighter Alpha 2, having counter moves. A dash move is
also present, something never seen in an SF game on a console system until
now.
---Fun---
X-Men Vs. SF at HOME! While the gameplay isn't as deep as Street Fighter
Alpha 2's, the actual game itself is one of the most fun games EVER! The
fast and furious gameplay will keep you coming back for more, and more,
and more, and...! Add to that the fact that the game is a perfect port
from the arcade, and you've got the best Saturn fighting game this year!
---Overall-----------------------------------------------------------------
(On a Ratings Scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest score given)
Graphics- 10
Sound- 10
Control- 10
Fun- 10
This unbelievable arcade port is a MUST-OWN Saturn fighting game. If
you've been wondering what reasons there are to own a Saturn, here's the
only one you'll need this year!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---If you have any questions of comments, feel free to e-mail me at
free...@earthlink.net-------------------------------------------------------------Lee----------------------------------------------------------------
CQUIONG
I agree with you 100 percent! This game is fantastic, definitely best
fighter of the year, a perfect 10. If you don't have a Saturn, I would
seriously recommend getting one just to play X-men vs Street Fighter.
Waiting around for a PSX or N64 version just isn't going to happen.
Terry Freedman <free...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<freedman-251...@ip146.an6-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net>...
EViLwebs
CQUIONG wrote:
>
> I agree with you 100 percent! This game is fantastic, definitely best
> fighter of the year, a perfect 10. If you don't have a Saturn, I would
> seriously recommend getting one just to play X-men vs Street Fighter.
> Waiting around for a PSX or N64 version just isn't going to happen.
>
I think you just need to take a deep breath, calm down, and realise
that XM vs SF is probably the worst game Capcom has produced in
the last 6 years, so nobody really cares if it's arcade-perfect or
a bit of a hackjob.
--
EViLwebs
Captain Cowie
Someone sounds jealous.
--
Ray Hopkins is content going through life
being 6'3", sexy, and just too sweeeeet!
Captain Cowie
EViLwebs wrote:
>
> CQUIONG wrote:
> >
> > I agree with you 100 percent! This game is fantastic, definitely best
> > fighter of the year, a perfect 10. If you don't have a Saturn, I would
> > seriously recommend getting one just to play X-men vs Street Fighter.
> > Waiting around for a PSX or N64 version just isn't going to happen.
> >
>
> I think you just need to take a deep breath, calm down, and realise
> that XM vs SF is probably the worst game Capcom has produced in
> the last 6 years, so nobody really cares if it's arcade-perfect or
> a bit of a hackjob.
>
> --
> EViLwebs
The worst games Capcom has produced in 6 years?? How about:
-Battle Circuit
-Buster Brothers (What WAS the facination)
-Final Fight 2&3 SNES
-Street Fighter 2010 NES
-The Punisher (Face it, it was another Final Fight)
-Mega Man 6 (Worst of the series IMHO)
-Aliens vs. Predator (See The Punisher)
-Super Street Fighter (SF2 Speed, bad AI...far outweighed the 4 new
characters).
And these were all made 1991 and afterwards. To even say that X-men vs.
SF is worse than these games is a lesson in ignorance or just sour
grapes that Sega Saturn still has a little life left in it.
EViLwebs
Captain Cowie wrote:
>
> Someone sounds jealous.
Obviously, you haven't been around this NG for very long, because
otherwise you'd realise that all the "VS" games are universally
derilled from anybody who knows anything about the BS chains, the
infinite combos, the stinking shite CPU AI, and the general
scrubby button-mashing gameplay that has tarnished the good name
of Capcom in recent years.
Chinh Nguyen
In article <347DE1...@websling.demon.co.uk>,
EViLwebs <sli...@websling.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I think you just need to take a deep breath, calm down, and realise
>that XM vs SF is probably the worst game Capcom has produced in
>the last 6 years, so nobody really cares if it's arcade-perfect or
>a bit of a hackjob.
While it's true that the "diehards" detest the VS games, they tend to
ignore the game's intent. Of course I would never prefer XM vs SF over
DS2 in terms of fighting engine, but the former is obviously meant to be
mindless fun. The *first* time I played, I got all the way to the
boss--and I didn't even know Storm's cheapie. I've seen folx beat the
game just by hammering the joypad and buttons. So lighten up.
--
--Chinh Nguyen chin...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
"I was never more hated than when I tried to be honest. Or when, even as
just now I've tried to articulate exactly what I felt to be the
truth." -- Ralph Ellison, _The Invisible Man_
TimeKillr
In article <65lru8$r...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>, Captain Cowie <co...@spa.attnet.or.jp> wrote:
>The worst games Capcom has produced in 6 years?? How about:
>-Battle Circuit
>-Buster Brothers (What WAS the facination)
>-Final Fight 2&3 SNES
>-Street Fighter 2010 NES
>-The Punisher (Face it, it was another Final Fight)
>-Mega Man 6 (Worst of the series IMHO)
>-Aliens vs. Predator (See The Punisher)
>-Super Street Fighter (SF2 Speed, bad AI...far outweighed the 4 new
>characters).
AvP isn't "another Final Fight"... If you say that then ANY game that is in
ANY way similar to Final Fight is another Final Fight.. AvP doesn't play like
FF at ALL, has a pretty different game engine and is also MUCH tougher.(FF I
can finish with my eyes closed without losing a life, and AvP, after many
hours of play I still couldn't finish on one credit.. ) I never saw The
Punisher, but if it's as different from FF as AvP is, then I have to say that
you might have bad judgment on those type of games. And personnally, FF2 I
didn't like a lot, but FF3 I really liked, with so much possibilities...
"We don't lie. We use statistics"
- Scott H. Warner, department coordinator
"There's too much blood in my caffeine system"
Netrunner quotes. They just ROCK.
Ultima
Captain Cowie wrote:
>
> EViLwebs wrote:
> >
> > CQUIONG wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with you 100 percent! This game is fantastic, definitely best
> > > fighter of the year, a perfect 10. If you don't have a Saturn, I would
> > > seriously recommend getting one just to play X-men vs Street Fighter.
> > > Waiting around for a PSX or N64 version just isn't going to happen.
> > >
> >
> > that XM vs SF is probably the worst game Capcom has produced in
> > the last 6 years, so nobody really cares if it's arcade-perfect or
> > a bit of a hackjob.
> >
> > EViLwebs
>
> The worst games Capcom has produced in 6 years?? How about:
> -Battle Circuit
Never played it, so can't comment.
> -Buster Brothers (What WAS the facination)
Ditto, though I heard it was okay. What, you don't like puzzle games?
> -Final Fight 2&3 SNES
HEY! I LIKED FF2! Sure it was easy as hell but, as a game, it was a HELL
of a lot better than FF1 was on SNES (no Guy? no 2P simultaneous? No
sale). FF3 I never played, bu I assume it's more of the same thing.
Hardly can be considered one of their worst...
> -Street Fighter 2010 NES
That was made in 1991? I think that was 1990, because I remember that
being out LONG before SF2. PLus, that wasn't the worst, just one of the
most frustratting...
> -The Punisher (Face it, it was another Final Fight)
I think somebody liked it..? :p
> -Mega Man 6 (Worst of the series IMHO)
Don't think I got past 4...
> -Aliens vs. Predator (See The Punisher)
What, the ARCADE? ARE YOU MAD? That game was GREAT! Hey, the character
design alone made it cool! Linn RULES... ^_^
Seriously, yes it was another Final Fight, but it was a DAMN good one.
There's only so much you can do with a side-scrolling fight engine you
know... :)
> -Super Street Fighter (SF2 Speed, bad AI...far outweighed the 4 new
> characters).
I'l agree with this one 150%...
> And these were all made 1991 and afterwards. To even say that X-men
vs. SF is worse than these games is a lesson in ignorance or just sour
> grapes that Sega Saturn still has a little life left in it.
Well, I'm not into bashing Saturn seeing that I own one, so that rules
that out. :)
However, the game itself isn't as bad so much as what it represents -
little more than money-making scheme for Capcom at the expense of the
solid hameplay we had grown accustomed to for the past 5 years. The
former is forgivable - this is a business afterall. The latter is NOT...
Give us a perfect transaltion of XSF, but also give us a pefect
translation of SSF2T ... They did the former, but not the latter it
seems...
> --
> Ray Hopkins is content going through life
> being 6'3", sexy, and just too sweeeeet!
--
Ultima
http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Street Fighter RPG, Final
Fantasy VII, Fan art, and miscellaneous rambling...
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{V+ MB+ Rl+ Cr+[SFA2] I[III]++ Ax[I,III]++}
[ac- +cc+(!ccRl&MB) ch- cn- c m+ 2+ n++ os+ p+ r@++ sp- st ta--
t(t+SCR) tm-- tr-:- th--@- v+(v++SFA2)]
"If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
"Get out of my house! - Exodus!" - Hank Hill
Kyurus S
No Captain Cowie, I disagree, EvilWebs is just reairming the truth.. that XSF
is the wors fighting game capcom ever made and should be erased from the time
continum to save all of humanity the pain of touching that damn game.
Ky
Dllem
>-Buster Brothers (What WAS the facination)
You don't wanna go there..
Dllem
_ _
+---ooo---ooo-----------+
Remove the i from the
email address to reply
+--==--==--=-=--==--==--+
Marty Chinn
Ultima (ult...@concentric.net) wrote:
: However, the game itself isn't as bad so much as what it represents -
: little more than money-making scheme for Capcom at the expense of the
: solid hameplay we had grown accustomed to for the past 5 years. The
: former is forgivable - this is a business afterall. The latter is NOT...
: Give us a perfect transaltion of XSF, but also give us a pefect
: translation of SSF2T ... They did the former, but not the latter it
: seems...
With the extra month Capcom took with the PS version of SSF2T, this one
is arcade perfect as far as I can tell, and none of the problems or bugs
found int he Saturn version. Its too bad that SFA2- doesn't stack up.
Anyone care to mix and match? =) Then again the important part of course
is SSF2T. So if you have a PS, you might want to look into the PS
version. Whats a shame is how Capcom put all this effort into XMvSF and
such a lack of effort on MSH. Nonetheless XMvSF is a godly show of 2D
glory on the Saturn.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Chinn ** Tokyo Game Show - Sept. 5 - 7, 1997 **
Video Source PlayStation, Nintendo 64, Saturn, Imports
973 Foxglove Dr. M-F: 9:30-6:00, Sa: 10:00-3:00 PST, Sun: Closed
Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Ordering, and Preordering info at:
<408> 720-8575 Voice E-Mail: vids...@netcom.com
<408> 720-8576 FAX WWW : http://www.video-source.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eddy Tang
One thing I wanted to say before going on to a previous post...
A Vs. P being one of Capcom's worst games?!! Uhhh... well, you are
intitled to your own opinions, but I'll just say that I don't agree
with some of your choices (like Buster Bros.).
In alt.games.sf2 Marty Chinn <vids...@netcom.com> wrote:
> With the extra month Capcom took with the PS version of SSF2T, this one
> is arcade perfect as far as I can tell, and none of the problems or bugs
> found int he Saturn version. Its too bad that SFA2- doesn't stack up.
> Anyone care to mix and match? =) Then again the important part of course
> is SSF2T. So if you have a PS, you might want to look into the PS
> version. Whats a shame is how Capcom put all this effort into XMvSF and
> such a lack of effort on MSH. Nonetheless XMvSF is a godly show of 2D
> glory on the Saturn.
From what people are saying on these newsgroups... they said that the
PS has a better SSF2T version while Sega has a better SFZ2- version.
Also what boggles my mind is why Capcom didn't decide to make MSH
compatible with the 4 Meg cart too, when the production of MSH and XMvSF
were near the same time. I won't comment on MSH since I've never played
the Saturn version, but some extras with the 4Meg would made some people
happy. It should've been possible to add extra stuff for the 4Meg, since
MSH was playable with and without the 1 Meg cart.
The comparisons with MSH and XMvSF aren't the only things I wonder about.
There are a few doozies out there.
Why does Zero 2 have bad sound samples and Vampire Hunter have excellent
ones? I thought VH was a bit more intensive with RAM than SFZ2. (I'm
talking about Saturn versions)
When you look at Dead or Alive, and compare it to Last Bronx graphic-wise
(Saturn versions for both). I'm a big fan of Last Bronx (we actually
have the arcade game here in town), but I felt the graphics could've been
a little cleaner like the DOA game. Sega should really ask Tecmo how'd
they do that, for future games (DOA is one of the best looking 3-D games
I've ever seen on Saturn). It looks exactly like the arcade to me, DOA
does.
In general, I guess not every arcade game will ever have an awesome
or near-perfect translation. There's always constant improvements in
programming for games on home systems... so it all depends on when the
game is finished translating. I'm sure Zero 2 or VH would have been
perfect w/4Meg cart, but both are really awesome translations anyway.
Also, game companies are always rushing to meet deadlines and stuff, so
they can't spend as much time as they'd want to. Or sure, it could be
laziness in their part... I dunno. But if a company waits and waits
until it's assured that it can make an exact translation of the game,
it's probably not worth the time... the game would get too dated and lose
appeal.
Still, sometimes it's worth a little wait to get a better version
IMO. Kinda like Resident Evil 2... I don't mind a longer wait to play
(hopefully) a better, awesome game. The RE2 demo is a good tidbit
to snack on, though.
Well, now my head hurts again. :P I shouldn't think too much, this is
supposed to be my vacation.
Captain Cowie
The game is just plain fun. Maybe the game's engine isn't the best
because it's the first time such a crossover has been attempted, but to
say the game is bad is wrong. I remember at my local arcade, that game
was packed for months. No one really paid attention to SF3. I still
think that as far as Capcom's fighting games go in terms of engine
evolution, Super Street Fighter 2 was still the worst because it was
slow, and the AI couldn't hold a candle to SF2T. The game was empty in a
couple of weeks because people preferred to play MK2 (If you can imagine
such a thing), and they quickly came out with SSF2X to fix their
horrendous mistake. And probably the worst fighting game that Capcom put
their name on is the Street Fighter Movie Game.
Dark Schneider
> Someone sounds jealous.
Of? XSF is a beautiful translation, but translation means no improvement. It's still XSF, the
button-mashing, scrub-baiting, ultra-boring (I like hyphens tonight), spandex-wearing, high-jumping,
infinite-happy, sleep-inducing game we all know and love. :)
--
Dark Schneider, Editor at High Voltage Online
A Fighter's Dream Come True
http://fighters.simplenet.com/hv/
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
Of course, I'm not sure about the former." - Einstein
SF Code 5.0:
(Z+ S(SFA2,SSF2T)>+ K+ G(SF2HF) Bd(SFA))
[ac- ch- cn c+ cc- 2- g+ m n+:+ o+ os+ !p r-(+ vs. ARK)
s sp-- st ta- tm-: th- tr-:-- v+]
WlcatIKUZE
>Of? XSF is a beautiful translation, but translation means no improvement.
>It's still XSF, the
>button-mashing, scrub-baiting, ultra-boring (I like hyphens tonight),
>spandex-wearing, high-jumping,
>infinite-happy, sleep-inducing game we all know and love. :)
Preach on, Brother Schneider.
James J. Jefferies
WLCAT...@aol.com
"Survival never goes out of style."
David W Ballard
In <3480FE...@osf1.gmu.edu> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu>
writes:
>
>> Someone sounds jealous.
>
> Of? XSF is a beautiful translation, but translation means no
improvement. It's still XSF, the
>button-mashing, scrub-baiting, ultra-boring (I like hyphens tonight),
spandex-wearing, high-jumping,
>infinite-happy, sleep-inducing game we all know and love. :)
IMO is not one of them. True, there are countless scrubs who abuse a
few powerful tactics and other things, but I don't think it's quite as
boring as SF3's poke-and-parry,poke-and-parry,poke-and-parry.
Dark Schneider
> Sleep-inducing? Nyaaaah. XSF is many things, but sleep-inducing
> IMO is not one of them. True, there are countless scrubs who abuse a
> few powerful tactics and other things, but I don't think it's quite as
> boring as SF3's poke-and-parry,poke-and-parry,poke-and-parry.
as boring as a mashing, flailing, talentless Wolverine. Just thinking about it makes me sleepy.
BK Toh
>When you look at Dead or Alive, and compare it to Last Bronx graphic-wise
>(Saturn versions for both). I'm a big fan of Last Bronx (we actually
>have the arcade game here in town), but I felt the graphics could've been
>a little cleaner like the DOA game. Sega should really ask Tecmo how'd
>they do that, for future games (DOA is one of the best looking 3-D games
>I've ever seen on Saturn). It looks exactly like the arcade to me, DOA
>does.
In a recent Asian Arcade Exhibition in Singapore, with booths from Capcom,
SNK, Sega, Taito, Konami and a few other companies... I was kinda surprised
that there was a Saturn version of DoA sitting in an arcade cabinet, fooling
everyone into thinking it was the REAL arcade version!!
I took the time to notice that some of the stages were missing the crucial
3D objects... which didn't detract much from the gameplay!
=) Once again Good job Tecmo!!
PS XM vs SF IS one of the best conversions I have seen. Like many, I wish
MSH and SF2 Collection, esp (SFZ2' could have used it for 2P vs COM mode!)
--
------------------------------------------------
To reply to me directly, please change
"com" to "net" in my email address
Sorry, but I have had just about enough of spam!
Ultima
I fully agree with everything above (ESPECIALLY the it about SSF2, MK2
and SSF2T) with the one exception about XSF being fun. Well, it's not as
bad as other would have it, but the only reason why I don't mind MSF is
for Mega Z and the Double FAB (air SPD too). They didnt' have those
things in XSF (well maybe the air SPD, but I'm not sure), so it really
holds no interest for me... MSF barely gets my attention beacuse of late
I've got this weird fascination with the SPD... And please don't take
that the wrong way, as some of you are (*Ahem* Jamun *cough cough*)...
^_^
Stacie Daron clarington
For those that bash the VS games why dont you old fossils die already.
Find a tarpit, a glacier but however you do it go very painfully.
hopeing that a SF II cabinet is shoved up your ignorant ass.
Onaje Everett
Stacie Daron clarington (Urotsu...@webtv.net) wrote:
: For those that bash the VS games why dont you old fossils die already.
: Find a tarpit, a glacier but however you do it go very painfully.
: hopeing that a SF II cabinet is shoved up your ignorant ass.
C'mon now. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.
Besides, I know you don't honestly think that the VS games actually
measure skill, do you?
--
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Onaje Everett oeve...@rohan.sdsu.edu for FAQs, files, and...combos. |
| |
| Meaning- "The Sensitive One" Nicknames- "Fresh O.J.", "The Juice" |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I can do (not some...) ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me." |
| -Phillipians 4:13 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Matt
In article <65upej$srf$1...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, oeve...@rohan.sdsu.edu (Onaje
Everett) wrote:
> Stacie Daron clarington (Urotsu...@webtv.net) wrote:
> : For those that bash the VS games why dont you old fossils die already.
> : Find a tarpit, a glacier but however you do it go very painfully.
> : hopeing that a SF II cabinet is shoved up your ignorant ass.
>
> C'mon now. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.
>
> Besides, I know you don't honestly think that the VS games actually
> measure skill, do you?
>
What's the point. Should all fighting games measure skill? You play the
game 'cause it's fun. If you don't like it for whatever reason, you don't
think it's fun. For those who DO like the game, they play it because they
think it's fun.
I think the reviews on this game are right on. It's the best port of a
Capcom fighting game since SF2 for the SNES, period. Does that make it
the best game Capcom's ever made? No, we'll leave that for SFA2 (minus
the damn CC's). But, IMHO, SFvsXmen is a fun game, while not incredibly
challenging, it is fun. To those who don't like, great, you saved 70
bucks.
Dark Schneider
> You could try winning... ;)
It's not a question of winning or losing. The fact of the matter is: If I personally am playing the
game and someone joins and chooses the usual suspects ("WAR CORKS/SCAR WORK" :)), I have to settle down and
prepare for a tedious, mind-numbing fight. Or I could just get the Z/Mega Z team out and SPD/FAB till my head
explodes. Which brings me to my point: The Marvel engine be enjoyable on one level, but it is by no means a
way to test a person's skill in SF. You can have all the mashing, flailing, pixie, "GRAAA!" fun you want, but
the rest of us will stick w/ something with a less flawed engine.
Ultima
Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> > You could try winning... ;)
> It's not a question of winning or losing. The fact of the matter is: If I personally am playing the
> game and someone joins and chooses the usual suspects ("WAR CORKS/SCAR WORK" :)), I have to settle down and
> prepare for a tedious, mind-numbing fight. Or I could just get the Z/Mega Z team out and SPD/FAB till my head
> explodes. Which brings me to my point: The Marvel engine be enjoyable on one level, but it is by no means a
> way to test a person's skill in SF. You can have all the mashing, flailing, pixie, "GRAAA!" fun you want, but
I say PREACH IT brother..! Seriously, well-said. It's amazing how people
are the same all over - you can fight here and see people choose SCAR
WORK (who gets the "tm" for this? ;), and know that half-way across the
globe there are people playing the same game are picking the same
characters and using the SAME tactics 99 times out of 100 . It really is
mind-numbing. And people say SF3 characters are 1-dimensional..???
BTW, I usually break out Dhalsim & Z/Mega Z. Z and Mega Z I can use, but
not against the three or four guys who actually know how to run
properly... :p
Captain Cowie
Onaje Everett wrote:
> Besides, I know you don't honestly think that the VS games actually
> measure skill, do you?
>
> --
> Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
>
>
It's not about skill....I play SF3:2I for that. It's about having fun
with with a game that is so crazy, it's cool and fun.
--
Spending warm summer days indoors,
writing frightening verse,
to a bucktoothed girl in Luxembourg.
Onaje Everett
Captain Cowie (co...@spa.attnet.or.jp) wrote:
: Onaje Everett wrote:
: > Besides, I know you don't honestly think that the VS games actually
: > measure skill, do you?
: It's not about skill....I play SF3:2I for that. It's about having fun
: with with a game that is so crazy, it's cool and fun.
I know that...'cause I know all of those combos on all of the Marvel
games because they're fun.....but the games do NOT cater to skilled
players.
I should know. I beat Alex Valle. :) Just gimme a simple motion for a
Shoryureppa so that I can catch a sweep and a few lucky counter-throws
and I can compete with anybody. :)
No offense, Alex...afterall...you did proceed to slaughter me and make me
look like the newbie that I am on Tekken 3.
"I'll get you next time, Gadget! NEXT TIIIME!!"
Dr. Claw, Inspector Gadget
--
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Image Glass
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:54:24 GMT, vids...@netcom.com (Marty Chinn)
wrote:
>Whats a shame is how Capcom put all this effort into XMvSF and
>such a lack of effort on MSH. Nonetheless XMvSF is a godly show of 2D
>glory on the Saturn.
I don't think this is Intirely fair.. They had TONS of time to make
it (Originally planned for release Nov 97). Capcom didn't know if
anyone would spend Extra money buying a 4MB cart for MSH (Not too
popular in the arcades.), but they did know all the kiddies would get
mom to chip in the extra $$ for XvSF (Very popular in the arcades.)
It wasn't programming, it was funding..
I just wish MSH was made for 1MB/4MB carts, and not 0MB/1MB carts.
Re-Release anyone? ;o]
Dllem
Joe Ottoson
In article <348358...@osf1.gmu.edu>, Dark Schneider
<ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> > You could try winning... ;)
> It's not a question of winning or losing. The fact of the matter
is: If I personally am playing the
> game and someone joins and chooses the usual suspects ("WAR CORKS/SCAR
WORK" :)), I have to settle down and
> prepare for a tedious, mind-numbing fight. Or I could just get the
Z/Mega Z team out and SPD/FAB till my head
> explodes. Which brings me to my point: The Marvel engine be enjoyable on
one level, but it is by no means a
> way to test a person's skill in SF. You can have all the mashing,
flailing, pixie, "GRAAA!" fun you want, but
> the rest of us will stick w/ something with a less flawed engine.
>
I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
(I still laugh at those pathetic fools who couldn't beat Wolverene players
or considered him cheap in COTA. Didn't those sorry fools ever try
blocking?)
Real faith is objective
Dark Schneider
> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
> brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat a boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of
the week. It's the fact that I shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of boring, repetitive tactics.
Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for infinite or big combo (depending on game).
"GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup air-combo into air-throw, into Super, or
setup for infinite. Kyklopes: 2 words: run away!!!
I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of the SF players) This and many other
reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to play with people who are good at it,
but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
> (I still laugh at those pathetic fools who couldn't beat Wolverene players
> or considered him cheap in COTA. Didn't those sorry fools ever try
> blocking?)
Not cheap... boring.
Edward Liu
Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun
> > of brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
>
> I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat
> a boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week.
Uhm, potentially stupid question, here, but what's WAR CORKS? OK, most
of it is pretty obvious:
Wolvie
Akuma
Ryu
Cyke
O
R
Ken
Spidey (or Sabertooth, if you're playing XvSF)
But what's the O and the second R? Omega Red? I _NEVER_ see scrubs use
him; I'm the _only_ one who uses Omega Red at my arcade, ever...
> It's the fact that I shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of
> boring, repetitive tactics. Wolverine: Priority makes for safe
> poking, dialing, setup for infinite or big combo (depending on game).
> "GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup
> air-combo into air-throw, into Super, or setup for infinite. Kyklopes:
> 2 words: run away!!!
>
> I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of
> the SF players) This and many other reasons why the Marvel engine is
> not a test of skill. It may be fun to play with people who are good at
> it,
Well, at least you're not so biased that you're unable to admit that
much...
> but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
Despite being a fan of the entire Marvel series, I'll have to admit that
point.
The Marvel engine is so unlike any other 2-D fighters on the market that
playing it too much actually DULLS your skill at other 2-D fighting
games. When I tried to learn Samurai Showdown 4 after playing several
months of XvSF and MSF and very little else (SFA2 controls were FUBAR
and I just plain didn't like SF3), it took me about two weeks before I
could even play Haohmaru Bust in a half-decent manner. Yeah, two weeks
to learn a Shotoklone in a game similar to SF2; suffice it to say my
reflexes and "instincts" for 2-D fighters were shot to hell at that
time, thanks to Marvel.
Since then, I've been trying to avoid Marvel as much as possible, at
least until SFA3 comes out.
--
Edward Liu -- maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
"Hubris among the simpler races is refreshing. It often indicates
courage in impossible odds." -Precursor, Star Control III
Milo D. Cooper
> Edward Liu wrote:
>> Dark Schneider wrote:
>>> Some dude wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun
>>> of brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
>>
>> I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat
>> a boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week.
>
> Uhm, potentially stupid question, here, but what's WAR CORKS? OK, most
> of it is pretty obvious:
>
> Wolvie
> Akuma
> Ryu
>
> Cyke
> O
> R
> Ken
> Spidey (or Sabertooth, if you're playing XvSF)
>
> But what's the O and the second R? Omega Red? I _NEVER_ see scrubs use
> him; I'm the _only_ one who uses Omega Red at my arcade, ever...
I think that it *is* Omega Red, actually. He's a cheesy, no-skill
bastard.
--
/|_Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler_|\
\| home.san.rr.com/mdcooper/ www.everquest.com |/
Stilt Man
In article <3484C5...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
>> brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
> I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat a
>boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week. It's the fact that I
>shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of boring, repetitive tactics.
What, you never ran into any boring Ryus back in SF2 days? That wasn't
too hard to do (just fling a couple of fakes here and there, fireball now
and then, and throw a DP if they jump in), and it was no less repetitive
or boring than what you get from Wolvie or Cyclops today. Also wasn't
too hard to beat if you were a reasonably competent Bison, Zangief, Vega,
Blanka . . .
There have always been low-rent characters in Capcom fighters. The Vs games
are no worse than the SF2 games in this regard.
>Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for infinite or
>big combo (depending on game).
Usually when I put in Rogue and deal them a few five-to-one damage trades,
they start thinking twice about putting Wolvie in there.
Or when I put in Bison for the quick standing kicks or scissors whenever
they do much of anything, standing roundhouse to defend against air attacks
cleanly, and general power advantage, they start thinking twice about putting
Wolvie in there.
They can get annoying, particularly when they do little but super-jumping
strong punches to fill up the meter, but they're not too hard to deal with.
Killing a flailing Wolvie inside twenty seconds with a thoughtful Rogue
is one of my joys in life.
>"GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup air-combo
>into air-throw, into Super, or setup for infinite.
There are numerous characters who can go through those air attacks with
no problem. Plus he dies against turtles hardcore.
>Kyklopes: 2 words: run away!!!
Then pick a character with a long-range ground move (Rogue, Cammy, Bison,
Juggernaut, Magneto, Gambit, Dhalsim . . .) and stay within about half the
screen and shut him down.
None of these complaints are any different now than what I saw on this
newsgroup about Ryu or Sagat or such.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '97. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
Ultima
Stilt Man wrote:
> In article <3484C5...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> >> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
> >> brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
>
> > I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat a
> >boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week. It's the fact that I
> >shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of boring, repetitive tactics.
>
> What, you never ran into any boring Ryus back in SF2 days?
Still do, and boring Kens (more of the latter in fact - people who still
think Ken's as powerful as he was in CE).
> That wasn't too hard to do (just fling a couple of fakes here and there, fireball now and then, and throw a DP if they jump in), and it was no less repetitive or boring than what you get from Wolvie or Cyclops today. Also wasn't too hard to beat if you were a reasonably competent Bison, Zangief, Vega, Blanka . . .
In a way, yes. However, the LAMEST Ryu could NEVER get away with the
stuff that the LAMEST Wolverine can. Yes, they're still food for the
better players, but it was actually harder for scrubs to win back then.
They gameplay nowadays caters to them, which is good on one level
(brings in new players), and bad on every other level. You're telling
me that ringing wildly on the controller and mashing 3 buttons on any
version of SF2 would actually make you a THREAT? You probably couldn't
even HIT somebody with those kind of tactics, far less win, but on the
Vs engines, because of the way some characters are desgined, such
tactics actuakky makes them somewhat of a threat. Not a LOT more, but
they are a threat never-the-less, which they should NOT be.
> There have always been low-rent characters in Capcom fighters. The Vs games are no worse than the SF2 games in this regard.
Oh yes they are, relatively speaking. It's MUCHeasier for a scrubby
Wolverine to win than a scrubby Ryu. Hell, I'd say even easier than a
scrubby Guile in WW (of course, that may be taking things a bit far, but
still)
> >Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for infinite or big combo (depending on game).
>
> Usually when I put in Rogue and deal them a few five-to-one damage trades,
> they start thinking twice about putting Wolvie in there.
And after a few FABs with Mega Z, you'd think they'd learn their lesson,
but NOOOOOOOoooo. But just because he can be beaten doesn't mean he's
not overbalanced. In the hands of a "good" player, then things get
extremely rough... While that should be how it is with every character,
the balance is not equal...
> Or when I put in Bison for the quick standing kicks or scissors whenever they do much of anything, standing roundhouse to defend against air attacks
> cleanly, and general power advantage, they start thinking twice about putting
> Wolvie in there.
Or endless slide'n'frustration tactics with Dhalsim, though I've got to
watch-out for errent Super Berserker Barrages (can you hit him when he
comes out of that move..?)
> They can get annoying, particularly when they do little but super-jumping strong punches to fill up the meter, but they're not too hard to deal with. Killing a flailing Wolvie inside twenty seconds with a thoughtful Rogue is one of my joys in life.
Heh.. Nothing like seeing the look on a Wolvie (or any other character)
flailer after seeing his special/super/whatever get FABed AGAIN... ^_^
> >"GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup air-combo
> >into air-throw, into Super, or setup for infinite.
>
> There are numerous characters who can go through those air attacks with
> no problem. Plus he dies against turtles hardcore.
Who's "GRAAA"..? Hulk? I don't find him *that* bad... Turtling hardcore
does work best against him...
> >Kyklopes: 2 words: run away!!!
> Then pick a character with a long-range ground move (Rogue, Cammy, Bison,
> Juggernaut, Magneto, Gambit, Dhalsim . . .) and stay within about half the
> screen and shut him down.
Oh YEEEESS.. Nothing like "OPtic.. Ooof!... Optic OOOF!!", etc... ^_^
Still, he's a pain in the ass wiht the block damage...
> None of these complaints are any different now than what I saw on this
> newsgroup about Ryu or Sagat or such.
The type of complaints, no. Just the degree of the imbalances involved
are stronger than they were before.. And infinites suck all around .. :P
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '97. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
--
SaBrE
I know I'll probably get flamed for this but i think you guys just bitch
and moan to much. I play xmen vs sf a lot and won many tourneys. we have
killer competition here and tons of people that are button mashers and
use wolvie. And i have absolutely no problem crushing any button masher.
Maybe its just because you aint good enough or something "no offense" to
stop the shit. i have absolutely no prob against mashers no matter what
character they use. I'm someone considered to have one of the best
wolverines around here. i kick everyones ass with him but no1 complains
about him. they just get frustrated by how fast i can open them up with
an offense. is that why you all bitch about him? because he's to fast
for your body mentally and physically? hes not that hard to beat if you
are good enough unless you play someone that is really good. and yes i
can understand about cyclops's beam. sure it can be a bitch to get by at
times but can leave him open for certain attacks at times. =)well
anyway, i just dont understand why people consider this a flawed engine?
what the hell really makes a game flawed? because they aint fast enough
to stop attacks? or fast enough to start an attack when they have the
chance. i dont see a flaw. this is a game that really tests your
reflexes. hell i have matches where we go until time runs out and never
have more than 1/2 energy missing for one character cuz we block
everything. this is a challenging game i think than compared to sfa and
sf3 in my opinion. but i do hate the throws into supers but what game
has no cheese? d:) just my 2cents
reply to sab...@hotmail.com
SaBrE_tOc
SaBrE
Ultima wrote:
>
> SaBrE wrote:
>
> [SLASH!]
>
> > I know I'll probably get flamed for this but i think you guys just bitch and moan to much.
>
> "SF") without majorly abusable techniques, we will continue to do so..
> ^_^
>
> I play xmen vs sf a lot and won many tourneys. we have
> > killer competition here and tons of people that are button mashers and
> > use wolvie. And i have absolutely no problem crushing any button masher.
>
>
> > Maybe its just because you aint good enough or something "no offense" to stop the shit. i have absolutely no prob against mashers no matter what character they use.
>
> variety of characcters, do you..? It's all about SCAR WORK bay-bee...
>
> I'm someone considered to have one of the best
> > wolverines around here. i kick everyones ass with him but no1 complains
> > about him.
>
> it..? :)
>
> > they just get frustrated by how fast i can open them up with
> > an offense. is that why you all bitch about him? because he's to fast
> > for your body mentally and physically? hes not that hard to beat if you
> > are good enough unless you play someone that is really good.
>
> much. And it's not just the speed, it's the ability to cover the ENTIRE
> screen and the high-priority moves. Unless I'm with Mega Z, I actually
> have to be concerned about when the beserker boys (Spidey/Wolvie) stick
> out a move because more tims thsn not, it's going to counter whatever I
> stic, out cleanly. And his speed makes it hard to counter him after he
> attacks. Basically, I use Dhalsim to shut him down from long range or
> keep him on the ground, and use Z to finish him off if he dares get
> close. Not hard, but more difficult that it should be because of the way
> he's designed...
>
> and yes i
> > can understand about cyclops's beam. sure it can be a bitch to get by at
> > times but can leave him open for certain attacks at times. =)well
> > anyway, i just dont understand why people consider this a flawed engine?
> > what the hell really makes a game flawed? because they aint fast enough
> > to stop attacks? or fast enough to start an attack when they have the
> > chance. i dont see a flaw.
>
> Zan' SPD!!!!)? Where certain characters have attacks that are
> CONSIDERABLY more prioritised than others? Where mind-numbing spazzy
> tactics can actually make you *WIN* every now and then (as opposed to
> never)..? No flaws..? Then you obviously have never played a non-marvel
> Capcom game...
ah but you cant do the infinites in the latest arcade version or saturn
version of XMSF cuz after you do a fierce or roundhouse to end the air
combo chain, they fall down much faster. sure you may get in a hit or 2
after a fierce but you cant infinite cuz they fall too fast. and then in
MSF, they fall straight down so its impossible to keep going. besides
Z's spd masher is only in MSF and i dont quite like MSF as much =) i
dont consider the mashing buttons to make supers stronger or better
looking is a flaw to me. and yes i play non-marvel games, i play both
alphas, i play sf3. hell sf3 has an infinite with dudley. well then you
have to say that sf3 is flawed then now wouldnt you? but atleast it was
taken out in 2I just like infinites were taken out in the vs games. no
game really has flaws, what makes a game engine flawed is what we dont
like. its just matter of opinion... =)
>
> this is a game that really tests your
> > reflexes.
>
> Reflexes..? Yes. Skill..? No... (though I'll be the first one to admit
> I'm no good at air combos, and I'll slaughter every one around here but
> one who attempts them on me)
>
why wouldnt it test your skill? it can test how well you can defeat all
those strategies you dont like =)
> hell i have matches where we go until time runs out and never
> > have more than 1/2 energy missing for one character cuz we block
> > everything.
>
> Try that with Z or a Dhalsim who's willing to throw you at every
> opportunity. I guarentee the number of time wins will go down
> drastically...
well we got lots of excellent Z players that are good against my zangief
but they cant lay a hit on me
either... =)
>
> > this is a challenging game i think than compared to sfa and
> > sf3 in my opinion.
>
> I'd say it's a scrubby game compared to SFA and SF3... But then again,
> XSF and MSh aren't really SF games - they're marvel games - so the
> comparison isn't quite fair...
thats true, cant really compare em.
>
> but i do hate the throws into supers but what game
> > has no cheese?
>
> None that I know of really... Before though, I wouldn't say SF had
> overly cheap characters (except for maybe Guile in WW), but you could
> use cheap tactics (that actually took some skill!). Not so in XSF or
> MSF...
>
> --
> Ultima
> http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Street Fighter RPG, Final
> Fantasy VII, Fan art, and miscellaneous rambling...
Im just curious, what makes guile cheap in WW?
reply to sab...@hotmail.com
SaBrE_ToC
Immortal
<snip>
> i have absolutely no prob against mashers no matter what
> character they use
> reply to sab...@hotmail.com
>
> SaBrE_tOc
>
button mashers are okay, personally i avoid it whenever i play, because it
doesn't look too graceful. capcom should get rid of the mashing, and just
put the full damage into the move. the only button mashers i have a
problem with are the ones that push the buttons and wiggle the joystick so
hard that it shakes the whole machine--pisses me off to a point. well
that's only my opinion though.
immortal
Ultima
SaBrE wrote:
[SLASH!]
> I know I'll probably get flamed for this but i think you guys just bitch and moan to much.
We've been accused of that, yes. And until we get an SF (note I said
"SF") without majorly abusable techniques, we will continue to do so..
^_^
I play xmen vs sf a lot and won many tourneys. we have
> killer competition here and tons of people that are button mashers and
> use wolvie. And i have absolutely no problem crushing any button masher.
Nor do I. But mashing gets results, and it shouldn't.
> Maybe its just because you aint good enough or something "no offense" to stop the shit. i have absolutely no prob against mashers no matter what character they use.
AH, but when you're a masher, you don't exactly choose from a wide
variety of characcters, do you..? It's all about SCAR WORK bay-bee...
I'm someone considered to have one of the best
> wolverines around here. i kick everyones ass with him but no1 complains
> about him.
If everyone plays Wolverine, it's kind of stuid to complain now isn't
it..? :)
> they just get frustrated by how fast i can open them up with
> an offense. is that why you all bitch about him? because he's to fast
> for your body mentally and physically? hes not that hard to beat if you
> are good enough unless you play someone that is really good.
Well, that super-jump repeat strong super buidling techniqu is a bit
much. And it's not just the speed, it's the ability to cover the ENTIRE
screen and the high-priority moves. Unless I'm with Mega Z, I actually
have to be concerned about when the beserker boys (Spidey/Wolvie) stick
out a move because more tims thsn not, it's going to counter whatever I
stic, out cleanly. And his speed makes it hard to counter him after he
attacks. Basically, I use Dhalsim to shut him down from long range or
keep him on the ground, and use Z to finish him off if he dares get
close. Not hard, but more difficult that it should be because of the way
he's designed...
and yes i
> can understand about cyclops's beam. sure it can be a bitch to get by at
> times but can leave him open for certain attacks at times. =)well
> anyway, i just dont understand why people consider this a flawed engine?
> what the hell really makes a game flawed? because they aint fast enough
> to stop attacks? or fast enough to start an attack when they have the
> chance. i dont see a flaw.
Infinites..? A game where mashing is a MAJOR part of gameplay (even on
Zan' SPD!!!!)? Where certain characters have attacks that are
CONSIDERABLY more prioritised than others? Where mind-numbing spazzy
tactics can actually make you *WIN* every now and then (as opposed to
never)..? No flaws..? Then you obviously have never played a non-marvel
Capcom game...
this is a game that really tests your
> reflexes.
Reflexes..? Yes. Skill..? No... (though I'll be the first one to admit
I'm no good at air combos, and I'll slaughter every one around here but
one who attempts them on me)
hell i have matches where we go until time runs out and never
> have more than 1/2 energy missing for one character cuz we block
> everything.
Try that with Z or a Dhalsim who's willing to throw you at every
opportunity. I guarentee the number of time wins will go down
drastically...
> this is a challenging game i think than compared to sfa and
> sf3 in my opinion.
I'd say it's a scrubby game compared to SFA and SF3... But then again,
XSF and MSh aren't really SF games - they're marvel games - so the
comparison isn't quite fair...
but i do hate the throws into supers but what game
> has no cheese?
None that I know of really... Before though, I wouldn't say SF had
overly cheap characters (except for maybe Guile in WW), but you could
use cheap tactics (that actually took some skill!). Not so in XSF or
MSF...
--
Captain Cowie
Ultima wrote:
>
> > >Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for infinite or big combo (depending on game).
> >
> > Usually when I put in Rogue and deal them a few five-to-one damage trades,
> > they start thinking twice about putting Wolvie in there.
>
> And after a few FABs with Mega Z, you'd think they'd learn their lesson,
> but NOOOOOOOoooo. But just because he can be beaten doesn't mean he's
> not overbalanced. In the hands of a "good" player, then things get
> extremely rough... While that should be how it is with every character,
> the balance is not equal...
>
> > Or when I put in Bison for the quick standing kicks or scissors whenever they do much of anything, standing roundhouse to defend against air attacks
> > cleanly, and general power advantage, they start thinking twice about putting
> > Wolvie in there.
>
> Or endless slide'n'frustration tactics with Dhalsim, though I've got to
> watch-out for errent Super Berserker Barrages (can you hit him when he
> comes out of that move..?)
This is why Dhalsim is my favorite anti-Wolverine character. Playing
long range defensive, he can shut down any Wolvie scrub. If they decide
to jump in, you Yogacurrana their ass. 99 times out of 100, they won't
tech out. After a while they stop jumping, and when they get back on the
machine (IF they do), they won't pick Wolverine.
Onaje Everett
SaBrE (sa...@netwrx.net) wrote:
: I know I'll probably get flamed for this but i think you guys just bitch
: and moan to much.
(snip)
It's not because we aren't good enough....and I know I am...it's because
it's darn repetitive and otherwise boring.
BTW, where do you play? You might wanna check out some Cali players, as
well as a few other players out there that post to this NG.
Dark Schneider
> ah but you cant do the infinites in the latest arcade version or saturn
> version of XMSF cuz after you do a fierce or roundhouse to end the air
> combo chain, they fall down much faster. sure you may get in a hit or 2
> after a fierce but you cant infinite cuz they fall too fast. and then in
> MSF, they fall straight down so its impossible to keep going. besides
> Z's spd masher is only in MSF and i dont quite like MSF as much =) i
> dont consider the mashing buttons to make supers stronger or better
> looking is a flaw to me. and yes i play non-marvel games, i play both
> alphas, i play sf3. hell sf3 has an infinite with dudley. well then you
> have to say that sf3 is flawed then now wouldnt you? but atleast it was
> taken out in 2I just like infinites were taken out in the vs games. no
> game really has flaws, what makes a game engine flawed is what we dont
> like. its just matter of opinion... =)
SF3... flawed?! <gasp> Such blasphemy. You're a little late on that one. :) Just out of curiousity's
sake.... why would anyone like either vs. game any more than another one? Cast of characters? That's the only
thing I can think of. Yes, they took those particular infinites out after the first couple of revisions and
they stayed out (for the most part). To put the phrases "Marvel engine" and "not flawed" in the same sentence
is blasphemy. Character imbalance, mindless flailing, infinites, ridiculous damage levels, priority whores...
for starters. Oh yeah, and the ability to have Wolverine and "GRAA!" on the same team has to be a felony. :)
Oh... BTW. Ultima: "GRAAA!" was/is how I refer to Sabretooth.
> why wouldnt it test your skill? it can test how well you can defeat all
> those strategies you dont like =)
Wow... learning patterns. How skillful.
> well we got lots of excellent Z players that are good against my zangief
> but they cant lay a hit on me
> either... =)
Eh? I'm sorry... no comprende.
> Im just curious, what makes guile cheap in WW?
> reply to sab...@hotmail.com
C'mon man. That's the BASICS! :) I wouldn't call it cheap ('cept for maybe magic throw and reset),
just incredibly powerful. Three words: Sonic Boom, Backfist. Oh yeah, magic throw, a couple o' redizzies, and
the handcuffs too.
SaBrE
Onaje Everett wrote:
>
> SaBrE (sa...@netwrx.net) wrote:
>
> : I know I'll probably get flamed for this but i think you guys just bitch
> : and moan to much.
>
>
> It's not because we aren't good enough....and I know I am...it's because
> it's darn repetitive and otherwise boring.
>
> BTW, where do you play? You might wanna check out some Cali players, as
> well as a few other players out there that post to this NG.
>
> --
> Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
>
fighters. i played a couple of times down in sunnyvale and LA but not
not enough to see if there was really any good competition. the ones
that i played were murdered by my gambit/sabretooth and just about every
other team i used. but maybe i was just playing where the good players
arent or i played at a bad time =)
i got some good competition in chicago however. i think the number and
toughness of competition is about same with phoenix, if not, then better
=)reply to sab...@hotmail.com
SaBrE_tOc
Kalani K. Hoo
Onaje Everett wrote:
> where do you play? You might wanna check out some Cali players
i see that you are from the San Diego area. where are the best spots to
play people in SF games here in SD? the only people i have played down
here are little kids who only know supermoves (UTC area). I have tried
to the various wunderlands, but no one really plays these games.
Thanks!
Kalani
Mark & Michelle Wood
Dark Schneider wrote
> I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of the SF
players) This and many other
> reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to
play with people who are good at it,
> but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
How can it be "fun to play" and also be "boring" or "flawed"? If it's fun
then it's not boring. If it's fun to play with people that are good at it
(ie, players skilled at the game) then it's not flawed. As for Wolverine's
fighting abilities -- that is how Wolverine would fight! A lot of slashing
and charging (maybe the Marvel series should be considered a "simulation"
for you). The idea was to make him playable after a similar fashion to the
comicbook/TV character. The same holds true for the rest of the
characters. I would say Capcom has done a great job in this respect.
Besides, all of the SF characters have a "style" that is generally best for
that character, don't they? For example, imagine trying to play Charlie in
an aggressive manner -- you might win but it's hardly the best way to play
him.
As far as it not being a test of skill -- how do you explain an experienced
player beating a novice then? I have never read a "strategy guide" on the
Marvel engine yet I have developed my own tactics for beating other
players, novice or experienced. As they learn to overcome something I can
do, I have to change up as well. Nothing is automatic. It's the same
thing that happens when we play SFA2 or Night Warriors.
If you don't want to "put up with this", don't play it. Capcom has several
other fighting games that don't use the Marvel engine. But don't whine and
say it takes no skill. It's not like you are the spokesperson for "the
rest of the SF players" anyways. Most SF players I know do not consider
themselves elitists. I consider myself to be a SF player but that doesn't
mean I consider myself "above" alternate styles of gameplay.
Skid
Stilt Man
In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> Just out of curiousity's
>sake.... why would anyone like either vs. game any more than another one?
>Cast of characters? That's the only thing I can think of.
That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I liked,
they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone. Bison? Slowed down badly
enough that *neither* of his supers combos any more. Dhalsim? Ditto.
(C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being able to combo the weenie
roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super berserker?) Juggernaut?
Gone. Magneto? Gone. And in their place we have . . . Hulk? Dull.
Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
Omega Red? Annoying. Blackheart? Annoying. Spider-Man? Captain America?
Great, more Shotoklones. Just what I always wanted.
See, in XSF you could play most any of the characters and be reasonably
assured of some effectiveness if you knew what you were doing. In MSF...
well, it's a Mortal Kombat game, for all intents and purposes. All the
non-Shotoklones have their weaknesses and most of the supers don't combo
while all the Shotoklones' do, and you've got lots of stupid secret
characters in there to pick. Boring!
>To put the phrases "Marvel engine" and "not flawed" in the same sentence
>is blasphemy. Character imbalance, mindless flailing, infinites, ridiculous
>damage levels, priority whores... for starters. Oh yeah, and the ability
>to have Wolverine and "GRAA!" on the same team has to be a felony. :)
Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
limits on what they can do against a competent opponent. I can play about
either or nine characters in there effectively enough to be reasonably
competitive against most anyone in the arcade. They go about like this
starting with my best...
1. "Good night, sugah!" (yes, Rogue is my best character)
2. Bison
3. Dhalsim
4. Juggernaut (Twisted thought for the day: beat a female opponent,
then hit start and do his leaping splash when the round's over. A
completely unintentional image on the creators' part, which makes it
kinda comical in a warped way... :)
5. Cammy
6. Charlie
7. Magneto
8. Ken
And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or "GRAAAAH!"
when I'm feeling like being annoying. And to some extent, playing Ken
effectively also translates to playing Ryu or Akuma effectively, although
the missing Shoryureppa and various other flaws in the other two make them
a bit less fun to play. There are simply few things more fun than roasting
someone with a Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if
it's Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
>> why wouldnt it test your skill? it can test how well you can defeat all
>> those strategies you dont like =)
> Wow... learning patterns. How skillful.
No. You don't play Rogue the same way against any two characters unless
their stolen powers are useless. Yet I kick most anyone's butt with her.
>> Im just curious, what makes guile cheap in WW?
>> reply to sab...@hotmail.com
> C'mon man. That's the BASICS! :) I wouldn't call it cheap ('cept for
>maybe magic throw and reset), just incredibly powerful. Three words: Sonic
>Boom, Backfist. Oh yeah, magic throw, a couple o' redizzies, and
>the handcuffs too.
No roundhouse or forward kick? I always thought those were his best
air defenses against most opponents. A Honda or Zangief that got past
the SB/sweep stuff could always just get stopped by the standing roundhouse
when they jumped over a sonic boom. The backfist was good when they tried
to cancel you, and a bit of noise making while you keep them away and
charge a flash kick never hurt.
Edward Liu
Stilt Man wrote:
>
> In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Just out of curiousity's
> >sake.... why would anyone like either vs. game any more than another
> >one? Cast of characters? That's the only thing I can think of.
>
> That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I
> liked, they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone.
Yeah, I miss her too... *sniff*
> Bison? Slowed down badly enough that *neither* of his supers combos
> any more.
Sure they do, you just have to combo the Psycho Crusher or Scissor Kick
Nightmare off of a standing roundhouse. Just dash in after a jump
attack and standing short, standing roundhouse (2 hits), either super.
I really don't mind the new delay on the Psycho Crusher, since it hurts
about TWICE as much as it used to if you connect with it. I think Bison
actually got _better_ in MSF, thanks to this higher damage super,
Psylocke-like teleport, and improved Psycho Field.
> Dhalsim? Ditto. (C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being
> able to combo the weenie roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super
> berserker?)
Good question. I've never seen anyone connect with the MSF Yoga
Inferno...
> Juggernaut? Gone.
*double sniff*
> Magneto? Gone.
*triple sniff*
And don't forget:
Cammy *quadruple sniff*
Gambit *quintiple sniff*
Charlie. OHMYGODWHATTHEFUCKDIDTHEYDOTOHIM?!?!?! *deep breath*
Saberto... well, actually, I don't mind that... :)
> And in their place we have . . . Hulk? Dull.
Hulk's awsome in MSF, but given the choice between him and Juggie...
> Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
> Omega Red? Annoying. Blackheart? Annoying.
Aw, c'mon. They're fun to use so long as you don't become one
dimensional with them...
> Spider-Man? Captain America? Great, more Shotoklones. Just what I
> always wanted.
Yeah, I don't get it. They took out the creative characters like Rogue,
Gambit, Magneto, and Storm, and in their places stuck in a wide
assortment of Shotoklones, including Sakura and Dan. What were they
thinking?
Then again, these _are_ the same people that decided that auto-mode
wasn't easy enough so they decided to add an easy-mode...
> See, in XSF you could play most any of the characters and be
> reasonably assured of some effectiveness if you knew what you were
> doing. In MSF... well, it's a Mortal Kombat game, for all intents and
> purposes. All the non-Shotoklones have their weaknesses and most of
> the supers don't combo while all the Shotoklones' do,
o_O Uh, I don't follow you there...
> and you've got lots of stupid secret characters in there to pick.
> Boring!
You crazy?! Mega-Zangief is one of the most fun-to-play characters in
ANY fighting game!
> >To put the phrases "Marvel engine" and "not flawed" in the same
> >sentence is blasphemy. Character imbalance, mindless flailing,
> >infinites, ridiculous damage levels, priority whores... for starters.
> > Oh yeah, and the ability to have Wolverine and "GRAA!" on the same
> > team has to be a felony. :)
>
> Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's
> not completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character
> imbalance. There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them
> have serious limits on what they can do against a competent opponent.
> I can play about either or nine characters in there effectively enough
> to be reasonably competitive against most anyone in the arcade.
<SNIP>
I think what Dark Schneider is trying to point out is this:
You can be a complete master of Rogue and Bison, and your opponent using
Wolverine and Sabertooth may not even be half your skill level. But
your opponent does know:
1) Wolvie's air combos & infinite and
2) Sabertooth's air combo & air-throw into multiple supers and
3) Very little else.
Chances are that you'll have to put twice as much effort into your game
just to beat him. Oh sure, he won't beat you, but he'll be sure to give
you a run for your money.
When an unskilled player can play on par with a skilled player in a game
_by sheer virtue of the character he uses_, there's something wrong with
the character balance.
> And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or
> "GRAAAAH!" when I'm feeling like being annoying.
Who can't play these three?
> And to some extent, playing Ken effectively also translates to playing
> Ryu or Akuma effectively, although the missing Shoryureppa and various
> other flaws in the other two make them a bit less fun to play. There
> are simply few things more fun than roasting someone with a
> Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if it's
> Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
You mean Shinryuken, not Shouryu Reppa, don't you?
> >> why wouldnt it test your skill? it can test how well you can defeat
> >> all those strategies you dont like =)
>
> > Wow... learning patterns. How skillful.
>
> No. You don't play Rogue the same way against any two characters
> unless their stolen powers are useless. Yet I kick most anyone's butt
> with her.
Of course not. _You're_ not the one settling into a pattern. _Your
opponents_ are.
Who plays the Weapon X Bros. in a manner other than, "dash or jump into
air combo into infinite or air throw & supers"?
And like DS has said before, it's not losing to these people that's the
problem. It's playing these SAME Cykes/Wolvies/"GRAAA!!!"s with the
SAME playing styles over, and over, and over, and over, and ov...
How many people where you play actually touch Rogue, or Cammy, or
Juggie?
Now compare this number to the people that play Cyke, or the Weapon X
Bros. If this number's anything like the number at my arcade, things
get dull VERY quickly.
Don't get me wrong. I like the game. I just think that some characters
are overused because they're just too good.
Onaje Everett
Kalani K. Hoo (kh...@law.cwsl.edu) wrote:
Either go to Nickel City in Mira Mesa or go to Aztec Amusement Center,
which is right across the street from SDSU. Aztec is a better choice for
Marvel competition. Used to be the place that I ruled..but I'm not there
anymore. Still, my friends have learned a lot from me. :)
--
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Onaje Everett
Mark & Michelle Wood (bam...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Dark Schneider wrote
: > I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of the SF
: players) This and many other
: > reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to
: play with people who are good at it,
: > but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
: How can it be "fun to play" and also be "boring" or "flawed"?
Simple. The flaws don't totally ruin the gameplay.
: As for Wolverine's
: fighting abilities -- that is how Wolverine would fight! A lot of slashing
: and charging (maybe the Marvel series should be considered a "simulation"
: for you). The idea was to make him playable after a similar fashion to the
: comicbook/TV character. The same holds true for the rest of the
: characters. I would say Capcom has done a great job in this respect.
Maybe, but what you have to realize is that there's a point when one has
to realize that when you make a game...it's a good idea to make it balanced.
Still, I don't have problems with scrubby Wolverines, so I guess it
doesn't really matter.
: Besides, all of the SF characters have a "style" that is generally best for
: that character, don't they? For example, imagine trying to play Charlie in
: an aggressive manner -- you might win but it's hardly the best way to play
: him.
News flash: Charlie IS better when played offensively. Ever read the
TZW Combo FAQ?
: As far as it not being a test of skill -- how do you explain an experienced
: player beating a novice then? I have never read a "strategy guide" on the
: Marvel engine yet I have developed my own tactics for beating other
: players, novice or experienced. As they learn to overcome something I can
: do, I have to change up as well. Nothing is automatic. It's the same
: thing that happens when we play SFA2 or Night Warriors.
Another news flash: If a guy that's average at SF can beat the master of
SF in a Marvel game, something is wrong.
If I can beat Alex Valle playing MSF, then doesn't it say something about
the engine? Chain combos help make the game MUCH easier to play, you know.
Trust me. The Marvel series, while being one of my favorites, is NOT a
test of skill. It's a test of "safe combos".
: If you don't want to "put up with this", don't play it. Capcom has several
: other fighting games that don't use the Marvel engine. But don't whine and
: say it takes no skill. It's not like you are the spokesperson for "the
: rest of the SF players" anyways. Most SF players I know do not consider
: themselves elitists. I consider myself to be a SF player but that doesn't
: mean I consider myself "above" alternate styles of gameplay.
Your position is nice, but your backing it for the wrong reasons. Until
you've actually seen upper level tournament play, you won't know what
you're talking about.
nicholas louis rogal
On 4 Dec 1997, Stilt Man wrote:
> In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> > Just out of curiousity's
> >sake.... why would anyone like either vs. game any more than another one?
> >Cast of characters? That's the only thing I can think of.
>
> That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I liked,
> they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone. Bison? Slowed down badly
> enough that *neither* of his supers combos any more. Dhalsim? Ditto.
> (C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being able to combo the weenie
> roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super berserker?) Juggernaut?
> Gone. Magneto? Gone. And in their place we have . . .
Rogue was scrubby and chessy, and not very intresting IMO, Bison
can still combo his supers, + over all i think he's better. I have agree
on Dhalism's now almost useless fire super, but hey. The loss of Magneto
and Juggernaut was a loss, they were actully diffrent.
> Hulk? Dull. Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his
defense.
Personally i find Hulk more intresting than Shuma-Gorath, "look
i'm an incredibly strange squid, or something?"
> Omega Red? Annoying. Blackheart? Annoying. Spider-Man? Captain America?
> Great, more Shotoklones. Just what I always wanted.
Captain is only vaguly a shoto-clone, you can't play him at all
like ARK he plays more like Zangief WITHOUT the SPD. (god could they of
made him any slower.)
>
> See, in XSF you could play most any of the characters and be reasonably
> assured of some effectiveness if you knew what you were doing. In MSF...
> well, it's a Mortal Kombat game, for all intents and purposes. All the
> non-Shotoklones have their weaknesses and most of the supers don't combo
> while all the Shotoklones' do, and you've got lots of stupid secret
Thats a silly judgement, every one has at least one super that
combos, there are to many DP FB guys but they are about as diffrent as you
can make FB DP guys.
> characters in there to pick. Boring!
Shadow charlie was nice.
>
> >To put the phrases "Marvel engine" and "not flawed" in the same sentence
MSH was a great game, the've gone down hill with it.
> >is blasphemy. Character imbalance, mindless flailing, infinites, ridiculous
> >damage levels, priority whores... for starters. Oh yeah, and the ability
> >to have Wolverine and "GRAA!" on the same team has to be a felony. :)
>
> Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
> completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
HUH? XSF was much worse with the character inbalance, it was just
harder to notice since every one had 85% combo's etc. I think MSF is
pretty balanced if you ignore wolvie/spidy who admitidly are just better.
> There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
> limits on what they can do against a competent opponent. I can play about
> either or nine characters in there effectively enough to be reasonably
> competitive against most anyone in the arcade. They go about like this
> starting with my best...
>
> 1. "Good night, sugah!" (yes, Rogue is my best character)
I never liked Rogue, to many people relied on tick,dashthrow (yes
i know its counterable, but not easily, ) super. yea theres 50% of your
life.
> 2. Bison
I feel for you he sucked pretty bad.
> 3. Dhalsim
> 4. Juggernaut (Twisted thought for the day: beat a female opponent,
> then hit start and do his leaping splash when the round's over. A
> completely unintentional image on the creators' part, which makes it
> kinda comical in a warped way... :)
> 5. Cammy
> 6. Charlie
> 7. Magneto
> 8. Ken
>
> And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or "GRAAAAH!"
> when I'm feeling like being annoying. And to some extent, playing Ken
> effectively also translates to playing Ryu or Akuma effectively, although
> the missing Shoryureppa and various other flaws in the other two make them
> a bit less fun to play. There are simply few things more fun than roasting
> someone with a Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if
> it's Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
>
> >> why wouldnt it test your skill? it can test how well you can defeat all
> >> those strategies you dont like =)
>
> > Wow... learning patterns. How skillful.
>
> No. You don't play Rogue the same way against any two characters unless
> their stolen powers are useless. Yet I kick most anyone's butt with her.
>
> >> Im just curious, what makes guile cheap in WW?
> >> reply to sab...@hotmail.com
>
Dark Schneider
> That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I liked,
> they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone. Bison? Slowed down badly
> enough that *neither* of his supers combos any more. Dhalsim? Ditto.
> (C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being able to combo the weenie
> roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super berserker?) Juggernaut?
> Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
> Great, more Shotoklones. Just what I always wanted.
Weenie roast... funny. I miss Rogue and Juggs, but I actually like Blackheart and Shuma. They bring a
different dimension to the series. Besides, the series needed more "charge" characters. Spidey, Omeaga, and
Caps I could care less about. More clones.... ick. Spidey's ridiculous priority almost puts him up there with
the Berserker turds)...
> See, in XSF you could play most any of the characters and be reasonably
> assured of some effectiveness if you knew what you were doing. In MSF...
> well, it's a Mortal Kombat game, for all intents and purposes. All the
> non-Shotoklones have their weaknesses and most of the supers don't combo
> while all the Shotoklones' do, and you've got lots of stupid secret
> characters in there to pick. Boring!
Mega Z, for me, makes up for all of the other cookie cutter secret characters. Mega Z is the essence
of Z (enduring pain just to shell it out). By the way, MSF is, in my opinion, MORE balanced than XSF. More
clones, yes, but no Sabretooth, a toned down Kyklopes, and no (read:few) infinites. Omega Red is a smidge
over-powered, but for the most part, the flaws are mainly left on the engine with MSF. And please... don't
compare anything Capcom makes to MK... please?
> Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
> completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
> There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
> limits on what they can do against a competent opponent.
?? How can massive priority have a serious limitation? Or a full-screen dash? Or an optic-blast with
next to zero lag? They may be very beatable... but it's a FLAW. A flaw known as character imbalance.
<snips self-love>
> And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or "GRAAAAH!"
> when I'm feeling like being annoying.
A trained monkey can play a "reasonably effective" Kyklopes/Berserker Turd. A decent player is tough
to beat with any of those three.
> And to some extent, playing Ken
> effectively also translates to playing Ryu or Akuma effectively, although
> the missing Shoryureppa and various other flaws in the other two make them
> a bit less fun to play. There are simply few things more fun than roasting
> someone with a Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if
> it's Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
You mean Shinryuken, right? The Shoryureppa is nothing more than a combo invitation if you try and use
it as an anti-air weapon.
> No. You don't play Rogue the same way against any two characters unless
> their stolen powers are useless. Yet I kick most anyone's butt with her.
That's one move. Besides, I enjoy a good Rogue too. However, the majority of the moves she steals are
just ways to add an extra hit or two at the end of combos. Explain to me the differences in strategy for using
a stolen Ryu fireball and a stolen Cammy Cannon Drill and you get a cookie. Just because the patterns are
different from person to person... it doesn't mean they're not patterns.
Quanah S. Harjo
In article <01bd00ec$bfdc2740$ac69d9ce@legend>, "Mark & Michelle Wood"
<bam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Dark Schneider wrote
>
> > I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of the SF
> players) This and many other
> > reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to
> play with people who are good at it,
> > but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
>
> How can it be "fun to play" and also be "boring" or "flawed"? If it's fun
> then it's not boring. If it's fun to play with people that are good at it
> (ie, players skilled at the game) then it's not flawed.
It's fun...for a VERY limited span of time. No matter what the skill level
of the people you play against, you begin to see the same patterns pop up again
and again. Sure, every fighting game tends towards patterns. But in the
VS. games, most characters are VERY limited in the patterns available, due
to the slant of the engine.
So...it's fun for a while, then it all becomes the same thing over and over
and over and...ad infinitum.
>As for Wolverine's
> fighting abilities -- that is how Wolverine would fight! A lot of slashing
> and charging (maybe the Marvel series should be considered a "simulation"
> for you). The idea was to make him playable after a similar fashion to the
> comicbook/TV character. The same holds true for the rest of the
> characters. I would say Capcom has done a great job in this respect.
> Besides, all of the SF characters have a "style" that is generally best for
> that character, don't they? For example, imagine trying to play Charlie in
> an aggressive manner -- you might win but it's hardly the best way to play
> him.
Funny, my Charlie IS extremely agressive. Give me a no-brain, no charge
set of supers, and Charlie becomes Mr. Offense in a Can.
Wolverine's slashing and clowing has never been the real issue with his
design: The EXTREMELY high priority of his normal moves is the issue.
Since he can have a move stuck out 90% of the time, that will counter
whatever wetworks move you're trying on him 90% of the time, it gets
annoying. It gives those without the ability to group coherent combos a
weapon of inordinate power for it's (low) skill level. If his moves
were lower in priority, I don't think anyone would complain about him
at all.
> As far as it not being a test of skill -- how do you explain an experienced
> player beating a novice then? I have never read a "strategy guide" on the
> Marvel engine yet I have developed my own tactics for beating other
> players, novice or experienced. As they learn to overcome something I can
> do, I have to change up as well. Nothing is automatic. It's the same
> thing that happens when we play SFA2 or Night Warriors.
Well put. Just about any game is a test of skill. But I'll try to
put this in as an analogy: Tic-tac-toe and chess are both games that
consist of a semi-finite set of patterns (loops in chess ignored). It
takes only a short time to find all the patterns in Tic-Tac-Toe, but
it takes a supercomputer to sort through a fraction of the possible
patterns in chess. The comparison of the VS games and the SF games
are roughly equivalent to this analogy. The VS engine tilts towards
two major components: heavy aggression and large combos. This limits
the envelope it works well in. Even Charlie, a defensive character
in most other games, comes out aggressive in the VS engine. SF2
(especially the Turbo games) was an engine that better catered to
individual play styles, with a better varied selection of characters.
It empahsized agression, defense, combos, positional games, hand-eye
coordination, strategy, and indiviuality.
Of course you may not agree, but this is the viewpoint of a lot of
the anti-VS posters. A matter of taste, I suppose, like people
who admire Monet over Jackson Pollock...
> If you don't want to "put up with this", don't play it. Capcom has several
> other fighting games that don't use the Marvel engine. But don't whine and
> say it takes no skill. It's not like you are the spokesperson for "the
> rest of the SF players" anyways. Most SF players I know do not consider
> themselves elitists. I consider myself to be a SF player but that doesn't
> mean I consider myself "above" alternate styles of gameplay.
I'm sort of pissed about the Marvel games, but only:
1. Because I'd like to have another ALL MARVEL game. They're wasting
time meshing these things when there are a few billion Marvel characters
that would be great in a fighting game.
2. They're both, IMHO, worse than the games that spawned them. I enjoyed
MSH and SF2 a lot, but find myself beginning to avoid the VS games altogether.
If they hadn't almost forced me to play them (by putting in Dan and 'Gief),
who knows what I'd be doing?
eDANgelist
--
Quanah S. Harjo | SF Code 5.0: {D+ Z+>++ Ro+ Se[I]>+
hqu...@okstate.edu | GRA+(Ax--) HAF+(Sk-) ODD+ ARK-(Ry--)}
Programmer/Student/Artist-Type | [ac++@ ch cn c !cc+ 2-- g+ m+ n+:+ o+
The SD GALLERY! Fighting game | os+ p->+ r(+...@vs.SCR) +s+ sp- st(+Ro)
fan art and super deformity! | ta(+++D) t+(++GRA) tm-- th tr:+ v++]
---- http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4004/sdgallery.html ----
Nicholas Eckert
> Stilt Man wrote:
>
> > In article <3484C5...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> > Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> > >> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
> > >> brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
> >
> > > I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat a
> > >boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week. It's the fact that I
> > >shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of boring, repetitive tactics.
> >
> > What, you never ran into any boring Ryus back in SF2 days?
>
> Still do, and boring Kens (more of the latter in fact - people who still
> think Ken's as powerful as he was in CE).
>
Yes...as noted elsewhere, he's the R in WAR. Nice acronym, BTW. (Ugh,
unintended pun.)
> > That wasn't too hard to do (just fling a couple of fakes here and
there, fireball now and then, and throw a DP if they jump in), and it was
no less repetitive or boring than what you get from Wolvie or Cyclops
today. Also wasn't too hard to beat if you were a reasonably competent
Bison, Zangief, Vega, Blanka . . .
>
> In a way, yes. However, the LAMEST Ryu could NEVER get away with the
> stuff that the LAMEST Wolverine can. Yes, they're still food for the
> better players, but it was actually harder for scrubs to win back then.
> They gameplay nowadays caters to them, which is good on one level
> (brings in new players), and bad on every other level. You're telling
> me that ringing wildly on the controller and mashing 3 buttons on any
> version of SF2 would actually make you a THREAT? You probably couldn't
> even HIT somebody with those kind of tactics, far less win, but on the
> Vs engines, because of the way some characters are desgined, such
> tactics actuakky makes them somewhat of a threat. Not a LOT more, but
> they are a threat never-the-less, which they should NOT be.
Quite. For instance, see how far banging can get you in SF3, with all the
supers requiring double fireball motions (easily done, but not if done
randomly).
>
> > There have always been low-rent characters in Capcom fighters. The Vs
games are no worse than the SF2 games in this regard.
Yeah, but not so many that we can make a two-word acronym from the names.
That's bad even considering the fact that there's a few more fighters.
>
> Oh yes they are, relatively speaking. It's MUCHeasier for a scrubby
> Wolverine to win than a scrubby Ryu. Hell, I'd say even easier than a
> scrubby Guile in WW (of course, that may be taking things a bit far, but
> still)
>
> > >Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for
infinite or big combo (depending on game).
> >
> > Usually when I put in Rogue and deal them a few five-to-one damage trades,
> > they start thinking twice about putting Wolvie in there.
>
> And after a few FABs with Mega Z, you'd think they'd learn their lesson,
> but NOOOOOOOoooo. But just because he can be beaten doesn't mean he's
> not overbalanced. In the hands of a "good" player, then things get
> extremely rough... While that should be how it is with every character,
> the balance is not equal...
>
> > Or when I put in Bison for the quick standing kicks or scissors
whenever they do much of anything, standing roundhouse to defend against
air attacks
> > cleanly, and general power advantage, they start thinking twice about
putting
> > Wolvie in there.
>
> Or endless slide'n'frustration tactics with Dhalsim, though I've got to
> watch-out for errent Super Berserker Barrages (can you hit him when he
> comes out of that move..?)
I hit 'em with standingroundhouse while he's doing it. Dhalsim's priority
in MSHvSF is nasty compared to every other game he's been in. It's like
Kasumi in MTCTFb (those that don't know what this is, may not wish to
ask); he's quiet, looks harmless enough, then just seems to stop you for
some reason you have no idea of figuring out.
>
> > They can get annoying, particularly when they do little but
super-jumping strong punches to fill up the meter, but they're not too
hard to deal with. Killing a flailing Wolvie inside twenty seconds with a
thoughtful Rogue is one of my joys in life.
>
> Heh.. Nothing like seeing the look on a Wolvie (or any other character)
> flailer after seeing his special/super/whatever get FABed AGAIN... ^_^
Oh, yes, I had fun showing someone Mega Z this week. "Crawler Assault",
few hits, super sound and reanimation, sound of jaw hitting floor,
"Final...Atomic...Buster!" Sorry, Armored Spidey...(HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)
>
> > >"GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup
air-combo
> > >into air-throw, into Super, or setup for infinite.
> >
> > There are numerous characters who can go through those air attacks with
> > no problem. Plus he dies against turtles hardcore.
>
> Who's "GRAAA"..? Hulk? I don't find him *that* bad... Turtling hardcore
> does work best against him...
No, GRAAA is a new term for Sabretooth, who uses said phrase about every
time he does a move in X-MvSF.
--
Nicholas Eckert
vidstudent
SF Code 5.0
{Dh+ N[I]>+ Ak}
[ac-- ch- cn c cc+ 2- g- m+ n:- o os p r s+ sp st(Dh--) ta t tm-- th tr(Dh+) v+(vSF3)]
nicholas louis rogal
On 5 Dec 1997, Onaje Everett wrote:
> nicholas louis rogal (ro...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : On 4 Dec 1997, Stilt Man wrote:
>
> : > In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> : > Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> : Rogue was scrubby and chessy, and not very intresting IMO,
>
> WHAT???!!! How is THIS possible? Rogue is far from scrubby. She can't
> do the kind of damage that most characters can do. What am I missing
> that you're abusing?
Huh? everyone can deal mucho damage, your right she isn't top
tier, but i find her cheesy.
>
> : > Hulk? Dull. Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his
> : defense.
> : Personally i find Hulk more intresting than Shuma-Gorath, "look
> : i'm an incredibly strange squid, or something?"
>
> You need to play more Shuma. :) Shuma can be very interesting if you
> play him well enough.
I'm pretty good with him, its just freaks never have appealed to
me. Plus IMO he's a pretty crappy design. (didn't like him in MSH
either.)
>
> I STILL like him...and James Chen probably would, too...if he played MSF.
>
> : > Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
> : > completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
> : HUH? XSF was much worse with the character inbalance, it was just
> : harder to notice since every one had 85% combo's etc. I think MSF is
> : pretty balanced if you ignore wolvie/spidy who admitidly are just better.
>
> You just contradicted yourself.
>
> Don't you realize that if most of the characters in the game have
> infinites, that already makes it balanced? Balance in a game means that
> all of the characters have a fairly equal chance of winning against each
> other. This is true for the most part in XSF. MSF screwed it up in the
> balance department.
Yes it is true that in XSF everyone has a chance, cause everyone
has wacko damage, much like Tekken 3 where their are good characters (paul
nina) and not so good characters, since everyone has 65% damage moves etc.
Even at high levels of play you can get lucky.
>
> : > There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
> : > limits on what they can do against a competent opponent. I can play about
> : > either or nine characters in there effectively enough to be reasonably
> : > competitive against most anyone in the arcade. They go about like this
> : > starting with my best...
> : >
> : > 1. "Good night, sugah!" (yes, Rogue is my best character)
> : I never liked Rogue, to many people relied on tick,dashthrow (yes
> : i know its counterable, but not easily, ) super. yea theres 50% of your
> : life.
>
> It's EASILY counterable. Learn you opponent's pattern. Learn to react
> to her dashing toward you. She is NOT cheezy. To say so would mean that
> only YOU had problems with her.
Ok, first of all i don't play lots of Rouges, secondly her dash
throw into super, is just as bad as good ole's cyclop's, and i don't think
it can be tek-hit. I've only seen one good rogue and he never really game
me problems, I know the pattren, its just very boring to play against.
>
> You're missing out, homey.
>
> : > 2. Bison
> : I feel for you he sucked pretty bad.
>
> In what game? Bison doesn't suck. Bison is very solid offensively and
> is really only lacking on defense. Still, don't let him connect because
> he's still a nightmare if he does.
In Xsf bison is at a considrable disadvantage, he has no infinites
in the later versions of the game (what i got around here) and lousy D,
he's playable, hell every one is playable, but i'd rank him pretty close
to the bottom, i'm not even sure who'd i'd consider worse of in Xsf, maybe
Cammy?
> > I'm starting to doubt your knowledge of the game.
Luis Ramirez
Wahooie!
Not that it matters to anyone cause I doubt anyone would
remember me or even care to remember me, but I'm back. My ISP
stopped subscribing to AGS for a while, and I had to get my daily
dose of AGS off of DejaNews. But now my ISP has it again, and its
better then before. Anyway, I'm glad I'm back, you guys are pretty
cool. THis NG is pretty cool.
Anyway.
I consider myself an average, or a little above average SF player. I
would like SF3 a lot more if the computer weren't so tough, but oh
well.
I do think MSH has a better engine then XSF of MSF. But the reason
XSF was so much fun was cause of the tag team thing, which
worked real well IMO.
My gripes against XSF, MSF. The endless WAR CORKS as you guys
call them. The WAR CORKS who all play in the same style.
This is what I want to know, the scrubs play WAR CORKS cause
they're so easy. But what if all the characters in XSF and MSF were
as easy as WAR CORKS, would the scrubs then play those characters
too? If this happend would we get more variety at the arcade?
Some people say that its wrong if a scrub beats an SF champion in a
Marvel game. Will that ticks me off too, cause I sometimes think
"Man, I could probably kill that guy at SF3 or SFA2." But we also got
to face the fact that Capcom is trying to get the casual gamer to play
their games. Its the same arguement others have said before. Ever
since SFA and XCOTA, there's been autoblock and easy modes. Back
in the day of SF:WW, the playing field was more or less even,
everyone was a beginner (except for those guys that lived at the
laundromat and played all day long). Now that we're all grown up
and we know a ton more then the beginners of today, well they
need a chance to fight back at us. I don't know.
Persons who break joystick should be exiled from arcades.
Something else that is ironic. I think, IMO, that the vast majority of
scrubs who pick Akuma probably don't know how to do his Hell
Murder. Whats even more dumb is that the scrubs pick Akuma
cause he's such a 'powerful' character, but the dumb thing is that a
scrub plays Akuma like Ryu or Ken (except for airfireball) and the
stupid thing is that AKuma takes in more damage then Ryu or Ken
and has a shorter super fireball. My point is that the scrub is
actually handicapping him or herself by picking AKuma, cause
Akuma takes in more damage and has other limitations. Dumb
Scrub, Dan's gotta teach you a lesson.
Anyway. Dan is the man.
Some person said that Dan is just another shoto-clone and there was
no reason to have had him in MSF. Wrong. Darn it man, what a
better way to kill the WAR CORKS then Dan. Its what makes the
game interesting to me. I want to learn how to play as Zang, but I
don't want to make an 'investment' in learning how to play as him.
Hmm tough problem.
Damnit when is SFA3 gonna get here.
All this news about PSX geting XSF-EX, and nothing on the N64,
what the heck is going on.
Maybe I'm making no sense, I don't know. But I just like this place
to much. Its improved from back when we had all the controversy
concerning something which I won't even say cause people will
remember and might start jabbering about it again. Anyway,
everything is good.
luis hibiki
Take out NOSPAM to reply.
"Shinkuu (gadouken) Shouryu-Reppa", sweet words.
Onaje Everett
nicholas louis rogal (ro...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: On 4 Dec 1997, Stilt Man wrote:
: > In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
: > Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
: Rogue was scrubby and chessy, and not very intresting IMO,
WHAT???!!! How is THIS possible? Rogue is far from scrubby. She can't
do the kind of damage that most characters can do. What am I missing
that you're abusing?
: > Hulk? Dull. Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his
: defense.
: Personally i find Hulk more intresting than Shuma-Gorath, "look
: i'm an incredibly strange squid, or something?"
You need to play more Shuma. :) Shuma can be very interesting if you
play him well enough.
I STILL like him...and James Chen probably would, too...if he played MSF.
: > Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
: > completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
: HUH? XSF was much worse with the character inbalance, it was just
: harder to notice since every one had 85% combo's etc. I think MSF is
: pretty balanced if you ignore wolvie/spidy who admitidly are just better.
You just contradicted yourself.
Don't you realize that if most of the characters in the game have
infinites, that already makes it balanced? Balance in a game means that
all of the characters have a fairly equal chance of winning against each
other. This is true for the most part in XSF. MSF screwed it up in the
balance department.
: > There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
: > limits on what they can do against a competent opponent. I can play about
: > either or nine characters in there effectively enough to be reasonably
: > competitive against most anyone in the arcade. They go about like this
: > starting with my best...
: >
: > 1. "Good night, sugah!" (yes, Rogue is my best character)
: I never liked Rogue, to many people relied on tick,dashthrow (yes
: i know its counterable, but not easily, ) super. yea theres 50% of your
: life.
It's EASILY counterable. Learn you opponent's pattern. Learn to react
to her dashing toward you. She is NOT cheezy. To say so would mean that
only YOU had problems with her.
You're missing out, homey.
: > 2. Bison
: I feel for you he sucked pretty bad.
In what game? Bison doesn't suck. Bison is very solid offensively and
is really only lacking on defense. Still, don't let him connect because
he's still a nightmare if he does.
I'm starting to doubt your knowledge of the game.
Onaje Everett
829A...@inreach.com>
Luis Ramirez (luisra...@inreach.com) wrote:
(snip)
: Maybe I'm making no sense, I don't know. But I just like this place
: to much. Its improved from back when we had all the controversy
: concerning something which I won't even say cause people will
: remember and might start jabbering about it again. Anyway,
: everything is good.
You're making perfect sense. The ONLY decent game in the Marvel series
is Marvel Super Heroes. Everything else is below average for
Capcom....though the average is starting to lower.
I can't wait for an all Marvel game without the tag team thing.
In the mean time....SFA vs. DS wouldn't be so bad, Capcom! REALLY!!!
SIMILAR FIGHTING ENGINES!!!! Neat concept, ain't it????!!!! *sigh*
Dark Schneider
> In the mean time....SFA vs. DS wouldn't be so bad, Capcom! REALLY!!!
> SIMILAR FIGHTING ENGINES!!!! Neat concept, ain't it????!!!! *sigh*
Yeah, but they'd ending up warping them both into the Marvel engine. Ick. However, a SF v. Vampire
game would be great if they gave it the engine from Vampire Savior.
Joe Ottoson
In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,
hqu...@okstate.edu (Quanah S. Harjo) wrote:
> In article <01bd00ec$bfdc2740$ac69d9ce@legend>, "Mark & Michelle Wood"
> <bam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Dark Schneider wrote
> >
> > > I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of
the SF
> > players) This and many other
> > > reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to
> > play with people who are good at it,
> > > but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
> >
> > How can it be "fun to play" and also be "boring" or "flawed"? If it's fun
> > then it's not boring. If it's fun to play with people that are good at it
> > (ie, players skilled at the game) then it's not flawed.
>
> It's fun...for a VERY limited span of time. No matter what the skill level
> of the people you play against, you begin to see the same patterns pop
up again
> and again. Sure, every fighting game tends towards patterns. But in the
> VS. games, most characters are VERY limited in the patterns available, due
> to the slant of the engine.
>
Gee, I can see why that annoys SF purists ;P In case you folks didn't
notice, that applies to any 2d fighter ever made...
> So...it's fun for a while, then it all becomes the same thing over and over
> and over and...ad infinitum.
>
I guess they should've released Xmen Super Turbo ;)
> Wolverine's slashing and clowing has never been the real issue with his
> design: The EXTREMELY high priority of his normal moves is the issue.
> Since he can have a move stuck out 90% of the time, that will counter
> whatever wetworks move you're trying on him 90% of the time, it gets
> annoying.
All the same, his priority is not *that* much better (in any game he's
been in so far) Why else would Colossus and the Sentinel on COTA be able
to cream him with no trouble?
It gives those without the ability to group coherent combos a
> weapon of inordinate power for it's (low) skill level. If his moves
> were lower in priority, I don't think anyone would complain about him
> at all.
>
So, are scrubs easy to beat or not? You make it sound like they might as
well be master players...
> > As far as it not being a test of skill -- how do you explain an experienced
> > player beating a novice then? I have never read a "strategy guide" on the
> > Marvel engine yet I have developed my own tactics for beating other
> > players, novice or experienced. As they learn to overcome something I can
> > do, I have to change up as well. Nothing is automatic. It's the same
> > thing that happens when we play SFA2 or Night Warriors.
>
> Well put. Just about any game is a test of skill. But I'll try to
> put this in as an analogy: Tic-tac-toe and chess are both games that
> consist of a semi-finite set of patterns (loops in chess ignored). It
> takes only a short time to find all the patterns in Tic-Tac-Toe, but
> it takes a supercomputer to sort through a fraction of the possible
> patterns in chess. The comparison of the VS games and the SF games
> are roughly equivalent to this analogy.
Except SF is about 1% more intellectual rather than chess vs tic tac toe's
vast gulf.
The VS engine tilts towards
> two major components: heavy aggression and large combos.
Except neither are especially advantageous for creating winning stratigies...
This limits
> the envelope it works well in. Even Charlie, a defensive character
> in most other games, comes out aggressive in the VS engine. SF2
> (especially the Turbo games) was an engine that better catered to
> individual play styles, with a better varied selection of characters.
> It empahsized agression, defense, combos, positional games, hand-eye
> coordination, strategy, and indiviuality.
>
Hate to break it to you, but the world isn't measured by SF...
> Of course you may not agree, but this is the viewpoint of a lot of
> the anti-VS posters. A matter of taste, I suppose, like people
> who admire Monet over Jackson Pollock...
>
More like Leonardo vs Rembrandt.
> I'm sort of pissed about the Marvel games, but only:
>
> 1. Because I'd like to have another ALL MARVEL game. They're wasting
> time meshing these things when there are a few billion Marvel characters
> that would be great in a fighting game.
>
Yeah, then we'd see more obscure enemies while the mainstream ones are
utterly ignored ;)
Real faith is objective
Milo D. Cooper
> Kalani K. Hoo wrote:
>> Onaje Everett wrote:
>>
>> where do you play? You might wanna check out some Cali players
>
> i see that you are from the San Diego area. where are the best spots to
> play people in SF games here in SD? the only people i have played down
> here are little kids who only know supermoves (UTC area). I have tried
> to the various wunderlands, but no one really plays these games.
You can find me at UTC, playing my favorite game, X-Men vs. Street
Fighter. And the occasional game of Giant Attack. And a little Vam-
pire Savior. Or Gem Fighter.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| home.san.rr.com/mdcooper/ www.everquest.com |/
Onaje Everett
: > nicholas louis rogal (ro...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >
: >
: > : > In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
: > : > Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
: >
: > WHAT???!!! How is THIS possible? Rogue is far from scrubby. She can't
: > that you're abusing?
:
: tier, but i find her cheesy.
Dare I repeat myself? HOW is she cheezy? Details! Last time I checked,
she was a skill character. If you're getting done in by a readily
counterable tick-throw, which is basically what any move into the Kiss
Steal is, then it's your fault, not Rogue's.
: > : > Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
: > : > completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
: > : HUH? XSF was much worse with the character inbalance, it was just
: > : harder to notice since every one had 85% combo's etc. I think MSF is
: > : pretty balanced if you ignore wolvie/spidy who admitidly are just better.
: >
: > You just contradicted yourself.
: >
: > Don't you realize that if most of the characters in the game have
: > infinites, that already makes it balanced? Balance in a game means that
: > all of the characters have a fairly equal chance of winning against each
: > other. This is true for the most part in XSF. MSF screwed it up in the
: > balance department.
:
: Yes it is true that in XSF everyone has a chance, cause everyone
: has wacko damage, much like Tekken 3 where their are good characters (paul
: nina) and not so good characters, since everyone has 65% damage moves etc.
: Even at high levels of play you can get lucky.
But the game is balanced, right? THAT was my point. I'm not talking
about whether or not the damage is high or whether or not the game is
more about skill than luck.
: > : > 1. "Good night, sugah!" (yes, Rogue is my best character)
: > : I never liked Rogue, to many people relied on tick,dashthrow (yes
: > : i know its counterable, but not easily, ) super. yea theres 50% of your
: > : life.
: >
: > It's EASILY counterable. Learn you opponent's pattern. Learn to react
: > to her dashing toward you. She is NOT cheezy. To say so would mean that
: > only YOU had problems with her.
: Ok, first of all i don't play lots of Rouges,
It shows. Really, it does. It's obvious that you've never been
counter-supered out of a Kiss Steal attempt.
: secondly her dash
: throw into super, is just as bad as good ole's cyclop's, and i don't think
: it can be tek-hit.
So...what? Can you at least jump out of the way? don't see the problem
here. All I see is a person complaining about a tactic that HE can't
counter and then calling Rogue cheezy. News flash: You, sir, are incorrect.
: I've only seen one good rogue and he never really game
: me problems, I know the pattren, its just very boring to play against.
You haven't fought a good Rouge. She can get much nastier with other
things besides the Kiss Steal.
: > : > 2. Bison
: > : I feel for you he sucked pretty bad.
: >
: > In what game? Bison doesn't suck. Bison is very solid offensively and
: > is really only lacking on defense. Still, don't let him connect because
: > he's still a nightmare if he does.
:
: In Xsf bison is at a considrable disadvantage, he has no infinites
Considerable??? You just don't know, do you?
Bison is quite safe after any jump-in because he gets so long to figure
out if he's hitting you or not. If he's not hitting you, then he can
easily escape with a safe combo. If he is hitting you, woe unto you
because you COULD lose about...oh...80 to 90% of your life. Bison can do
GREAT damage. You don't need an infinite to do that. Also, Bison is a
good shell-cracker thanks to his ground speed and his fierce throw, which
allows a juggle afterward. Bison has average air-defense at best, but he
makes up for it with a good dash and good pokes, aerial and ground-based.
You REALLY need to fight a guy by the name of Justin Chang. His Bison
WILL change your mind.
: in the later versions of the game (what i got around here) and lousy D,
: he's playable, hell every one is playable, but i'd rank him pretty close
: to the bottom, i'm not even sure who'd i'd consider worse of in Xsf, maybe
: Cammy?
Cammy worse than Bison??
You have officially been declared, "Off your rocker."
Cammy is, in fact, better than Bison. Surely you've heard of the
Spider-Man of XSF? C'mon now.
If you're going to make these statements, at LEAST back them up with
substantial proof. Otherwise, you really make it look like you don't
know what you're talking about.
--
Quanah S. Harjo
In article <ajkko-05129...@news.dimensional.com>, aj...@dim.com
(Joe Ottoson) wrote:
> In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,
> hqu...@okstate.edu (Quanah S. Harjo) wrote:
>
> > In article <01bd00ec$bfdc2740$ac69d9ce@legend>, "Mark & Michelle Wood"
> > <bam...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dark Schneider wrote
> > >
> > > > I should NOT have to put up with this! (Myself and the rest of
> the SF
> > > players) This and many other
> > > > reasons why the Marvel engine is not a test of skill. It may be fun to
> > > play with people who are good at it,
> > > > but as a game.... it's majorly FLAWED.
> > >
> > > How can it be "fun to play" and also be "boring" or "flawed"? If it's fun
> > > then it's not boring. If it's fun to play with people that are good at it
> > > (ie, players skilled at the game) then it's not flawed.
> >
> > It's fun...for a VERY limited span of time. No matter what the skill level
> > of the people you play against, you begin to see the same patterns pop
> up again
> > and again. Sure, every fighting game tends towards patterns. But in the
> > VS. games, most characters are VERY limited in the patterns available, due
> > to the slant of the engine.
> >
> Gee, I can see why that annoys SF purists ;P In case you folks didn't
> notice, that applies to any 2d fighter ever made...
Quoting out of context is fun, isn't it?
As I said later in the post, SF is also pattern based. It's just that it
has a MUCH wider variety than the Vs. games.
> > So...it's fun for a while, then it all becomes the same thing over and over
> > and over and...ad infinitum.
> >
> I guess they should've released Xmen Super Turbo ;)
Well...yeah, they should have. Again, as I said, I would have rather kept
the Marvel games ALL Marvel. X-Men vs. MSH would have been a neat game ^_^
> > Wolverine's slashing and clowing has never been the real issue with his
> > design: The EXTREMELY high priority of his normal moves is the issue.
> > Since he can have a move stuck out 90% of the time, that will counter
> > whatever wetworks move you're trying on him 90% of the time, it gets
> > annoying.
>
> All the same, his priority is not *that* much better (in any game he's
> been in so far) Why else would Colossus and the Sentinel on COTA be able
> to cream him with no trouble?
We're not talking COTA. We're talking Vs. I will admit that Wolvie
DID get a bit castrated in MSF though. He's still a flailing priority
whore, but he seems...slower. Then again, the whole game seems slower.
> It gives those without the ability to group coherent combos a
> > weapon of inordinate power for it's (low) skill level. If his moves
> > were lower in priority, I don't think anyone would complain about him
> > at all.
> >
> So, are scrubs easy to beat or not? You make it sound like they might as
> well be master players...
I don't see myself saying anything of the sort. I never said that giving
a scrub Wolvie would make them unstoppable, I said that it gives them the
ability to do more damage than their meager skills should allow. Wolvie is
a low learning curve character, and as a result, he's over-played and over-
relied upon (very similar to Sabretooth and Cyclops).
> > > As far as it not being a test of skill -- how do you explain an
experienced
> > > player beating a novice then? I have never read a "strategy guide" on the
> > > Marvel engine yet I have developed my own tactics for beating other
> > > players, novice or experienced. As they learn to overcome something I can
> > > do, I have to change up as well. Nothing is automatic. It's the same
> > > thing that happens when we play SFA2 or Night Warriors.
> >
> > Well put. Just about any game is a test of skill. But I'll try to
> > put this in as an analogy: Tic-tac-toe and chess are both games that
> > consist of a semi-finite set of patterns (loops in chess ignored). It
> > takes only a short time to find all the patterns in Tic-Tac-Toe, but
> > it takes a supercomputer to sort through a fraction of the possible
> > patterns in chess. The comparison of the VS games and the SF games
> > are roughly equivalent to this analogy.
>
> Except SF is about 1% more intellectual rather than chess vs tic tac toe's
> vast gulf.
I'd find an estimate of 1% to be...low. The Vs. games are fast-paced, and
don't rely on psyche-out games (with huge-ass moves like these, there isn't
much room for psyche-out games). When I play them, I just don't find myself
thinking at all about what's going on, I just play. I play an SF game, and
I'm CONSTANTLY thinking. Perhaps it's different for you, but the Vs. games
are just no-brainers for me.
> The VS engine tilts towards
> > two major components: heavy aggression and large combos.
>
> Except neither are especially advantageous for creating winning stratigies...
Those are the basis of around 3/4 of all the characters gameplans. Only
a few are real defensive types (Cyclops springs to mind).
> This limits
> > the envelope it works well in. Even Charlie, a defensive character
> > in most other games, comes out aggressive in the VS engine. SF2
> > (especially the Turbo games) was an engine that better catered to
> > individual play styles, with a better varied selection of characters.
> > It empahsized agression, defense, combos, positional games, hand-eye
> > coordination, strategy, and indiviuality.
> >
> Hate to break it to you, but the world isn't measured by SF...
No, but Capcom games, the subject of our discussion, are.
> > Of course you may not agree, but this is the viewpoint of a lot of
> > the anti-VS posters. A matter of taste, I suppose, like people
> > who admire Monet over Jackson Pollock...
> >
> More like Leonardo vs Rembrandt.
The Louvre vs a black velvet painting market in Tijuana.
> > I'm sort of pissed about the Marvel games, but only:
> >
> > 1. Because I'd like to have another ALL MARVEL game. They're wasting
> > time meshing these things when there are a few billion Marvel characters
> > that would be great in a fighting game.
> >
> Yeah, then we'd see more obscure enemies while the mainstream ones are
> utterly ignored ;)
Um...yep, you're right ^_^ I think they must have just broke out the
'ol Marvel Universe guide, flipped to random pages and said "Ah, here
are our villanous types! Shuma who?"
William Bacon
All I can say is, "different strokes for different folks."
Thank You
William Bacon
Milo D. Cooper
> Onaje Everett wrote:
>> Luis Ramirez wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I'm making no sense, I don't know. But I just like this place
>> to much. Its improved from back when we had all the controversy
>> concerning something which I won't even say cause people will
>> remember and might start jabbering about it again. Anyway,
>> everything is good.
>
> You're making perfect sense. The ONLY decent game in the Marvel series
I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure that I prefer Children of
the Atom. Yes, Sentinel is big b.s., and yes, the cancel-into-super-
jump bites, but at least there are no infinites, and the chain combo-
ing isn't nearly as bad, even with Wolverine. Also, CotA has no al-
pha-counters and no super-jump air combos.
Sorry to have to defend a game on a negative basis again, but for
the past three or four years, Capcom have packed so much junk into
their games that whatever value they possess is best unearthed by
stripping away the make-up.
--
/|_Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler_|\
\| home.san.rr.com/mdcooper/ www.everquest.com |/
Ultima
Luis Ramirez wrote:
> I do think MSH has a better engine then XSF of MSF. But the reason
> XSF was so much fun was cause of the tag team thing, which
> worked real well IMO.
True... But I would have prefered if they had either a) use Sf's engine
or b) use all Marvel characters.
> My gripes against XSF, MSF. The endless WAR CORKS as you guys
> call them. The WAR CORKS who all play in the same style.
Ahem brother... I prefer SCAR WORKS myself.. ^_^
> This is what I want to know, the scrubs play WAR CORKS cause
> they're so easy. But what if all the characters in XSF and MSF were
> as easy as WAR CORKS, would the scrubs then play those characters
> too? If this happend would we get more variety at the arcade?
If no one has a definite advantage, or an apparent definite advantage, I
don't think it'd make a damn bit of difference at this point. The memory
of Ken and Ryus (and Akuma) of the past has etched itself so firmly into
the minds of arcade players everywhere that you'd have to have been an
embryo at the time SF2 came out not to naturally gravitate towards them
if you don't know anyone else...
> Some people say that its wrong if a scrub beats an SF champion in a
> Marvel game. Will that ticks me off too, cause I sometimes think
> "Man, I could probably kill that guy at SF3 or SFA2." But we also got
> to face the fact that Capcom is trying to get the casual gamer to play
> their games. Its the same arguement others have said before. Ever
> since SFA and XCOTA, there's been autoblock and easy modes. Back
> in the day of SF:WW, the playing field was more or less even,
> everyone was a beginner (except for those guys that lived at the
> laundromat and played all day long). Now that we're all grown up
> and we know a ton more then the beginners of today, well they
> need a chance to fight back at us. I don't know.
A valid point. It's the only excuse the Vs game have for being the
scrub-food that they are.
> Persons who break joystick should be exiled from arcades.
Which in my experience consists of little kiddies who can barely reach
the damn screen. It may be harsh, but I'd say anybody under the age of
8-10 ought to be banned from the arcade (which would no doubt earn the
wrath of anyone who's been playing in the arcades since they were five,
like me... But we didn't have this problem way back when, now did we..?
^_^), so let me add a "j/k" before Imake someone's hit-list...
> Something else that is ironic. I think, IMO, that the vast majority of
> scrubs who pick Akuma probably don't know how to do his Hell
> Murder. Whats even more dumb is that the scrubs pick Akuma
> cause he's such a 'powerful' character, but the dumb thing is that a
> scrub plays Akuma like Ryu or Ken (except for airfireball) and the
> stupid thing is that AKuma takes in more damage then Ryu or Ken
> and has a shorter super fireball. My point is that the scrub is
> actually handicapping him or herself by picking AKuma, cause
> Akuma takes in more damage and has other limitations. Dumb
> Scrub, Dan's gotta teach you a lesson.
See above about ARK burning themselves into the conscious of the
arcade-player. Back home, there are people who play NOBODY but Ken (not
even Ryu) because they have memories of the extremely powerful ken from
CE, with his TOD and extra-wide Fierce DP... Akuma is probably
remembered from ST and SFA1, so he's here to stay. And when the younger
players see older players kicking ass with ARK, they will pickthem
too... It takes the likes of players like me (for example) to show them
that ARK is not the end all and be all of any Sf game by kicking their
precious ARK with characters like Alex, Vega, Bison, Ibuki,
Zangief+Dhalsim,etc... But it seems that I have little effect on these
people, since no matter how many Power bombs, Hyper Bombs, Flaming
Torpedoes, Crsytal-Flash Redizzies, Neck-breaker slides, SPDS, FABS, or
Buddha Blesses (aka Yoga Nugies) they get, they'll never stray far from
good ol' ARK. Ah well, more wins for me, though it's hell getting good
competition. ^_^ (yes, I get my ass thoroughly kicked sometimes, but I
try and overcome... it may take $20.00 worth of tokens, but I *do*
manage to eventally draw even.. ;)
> Anyway. Dan is the man.
> Some person said that Dan is just another shoto-clone and there was
> no reason to have had him in MSF. Wrong. Darn it man, what a
> better way to kill the WAR CORKS then Dan. Its what makes the
> game interesting to me. I want to learn how to play as Zang, but I
> don't want to make an 'investment' in learning how to play as him.
> Hmm tough problem.
Better way to kill SCAR WORK? Use Mega Z and punish every
special/super/air combo/etc. (see Mike's Zangief Solution for more)
attempt with a SPD or a FAB. Nothing beats the looks on their faces when
not only they realise that theire attacks are NOT working and geting
severly punished, but that they can't beat a character who can't
block..! ^_^ Hell ,that's the ONLY reason I actually get a kick out of
playing MSF.. Without Mega, it's not quite the same (sure, Dhal & Z are
cool too - Dhal is LETHAL - but it's not quite the same.. :P )
> Damnit when is SFA3 gonna get here.
GOd alone knows...
> All this news about PSX geting XSF-EX, and nothing on the N64,
> what the heck is going on.
I expect nothing on N64, actually.
> Maybe I'm making no sense, I don't know.
Actually you are. Quite a bit.. :)
> But I just like this place to much. Its improved from back when we had all the controversy concerning something which I won't even say cause people will remember and might start jabbering about it again. Anyway,
> everything is good.
I think I know what (or who) you're talking about. I'll refrai from
mentioning it myself...
Ultima
Nicholas Eckert wrote:
> In article <348653...@concentric.net>, ult...@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > Stilt Man wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3484C5...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> > > Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> > > >> I'm sorry, but a flailing moron should be beatable with a mininmun of
> > > >> brainburn in *any* Capcom fighter...
> > >
> > > > I repeat: it's not a question of winning or losing. I can beat a
> > > >boring SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS anyday of the week. It's the fact that I
> > > >shouldn't have to wade through an ocean of boring, repetitive tactics.
> > >
> > > What, you never ran into any boring Ryus back in SF2 days?
> >
> > Still do, and boring Kens (more of the latter in fact - people who still
> > think Ken's as powerful as he was in CE).
> >
> Yes...as noted elsewhere, he's the R in WAR. Nice acronym, BTW. (Ugh,
> unintended pun.)
"R"..? Don't you mean the "K" in "WORK"..? ;)
> > > That wasn't too hard to do (just fling a couple of fakes here and
> there, fireball now and then, and throw a DP if they jump in), and it was
> no less repetitive or boring than what you get from Wolvie or Cyclops
> today. Also wasn't too hard to beat if you were a reasonably competent
> Bison, Zangief, Vega, Blanka . . .
> >
> > In a way, yes. However, the LAMEST Ryu could NEVER get away with the
> > stuff that the LAMEST Wolverine can. Yes, they're still food for the
> > better players, but it was actually harder for scrubs to win back then.
> > They gameplay nowadays caters to them, which is good on one level
> > (brings in new players), and bad on every other level. You're telling
> > me that ringing wildly on the controller and mashing 3 buttons on any
> > version of SF2 would actually make you a THREAT? You probably couldn't
> > even HIT somebody with those kind of tactics, far less win, but on the
> > Vs engines, because of the way some characters are desgined, such
> > tactics actuakky makes them somewhat of a threat. Not a LOT more, but
> > they are a threat never-the-less, which they should NOT be.
>
> Quite. For instance, see how far banging can get you in SF3, with all the supers requiring double fireball motions (easily done, but not if done randomly).
Actually I have seen supers done randomly in SF3... not very often, but
it can happen. But
spazzing/banging/ringing/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call it does NOT
get you results in any real SF machine. You may get cerain moves, but
"winning" is not not an option...
> > > There have always been low-rent characters in Capcom fighters. The Vs games are no worse than the SF2 games in this regard.
>
> Yeah, but not so many that we can make a two-word acronym from the names. That's bad even considering the fact that there's a few more fighters.
Very bad. Nearly have the characters in that acronym...
> > Oh yes they are, relatively speaking. It's MUCHeasier for a scrubby
> > Wolverine to win than a scrubby Ryu. Hell, I'd say even easier than a
> > scrubby Guile in WW (of course, that may be taking things a bit far, but
> > still)
> >
> > > >Wolverine: Priority makes for safe poking, dialing, setup for
> infinite or big combo (depending on game).
> > >
> > > Usually when I put in Rogue and deal them a few five-to-one damage trades, they start thinking twice about putting Wolvie in there.
> > And after a few FABs with Mega Z, you'd think they'd learn their lesson,
> > but NOOOOOOOoooo. But just because he can be beaten doesn't mean he's
> > not overbalanced. In the hands of a "good" player, then things get
> > extremely rough... While that should be how it is with every character,
> > the balance is not equal...
> >
> > > Or when I put in Bison for the quick standing kicks or scissors
> whenever they do much of anything, standing roundhouse to defend against
> air attacks
> > > cleanly, and general power advantage, they start thinking twice about
> putting
> > > Wolvie in there.
> >
> > Or endless slide'n'frustration tactics with Dhalsim, though I've got to
> > watch-out for errent Super Berserker Barrages (can you hit him when he
> > comes out of that move..?)
>
> I hit 'em with standingroundhouse while he's doing it.
Surprise surprise... ;) Seriously, I was asking about hitting him
_after_ he recovers from it, not during...
> Dhalsim's priority in MSHvSF is nasty compared to every other game he's been in.
You're telling ME..! As a test, I went and played Dhally in SFA2 and
couldn't BELIEVE the way te CPU was just IGNORING my attacks..! I swear,
I saw Guy run THROUGH my standing Roundhouse...! I'd like to see Dhalsim
keep the jacked-up priority in future SFs, if nothing else (the 3/4
screen Yoga Flame might be a bit much. ;p )
> It's like Kasumi in MTCTFb (those that don't know what this is, may not wish to ask); he's quiet, looks harmless enough, then just seems to stop you for some reason you have no idea of figuring out.
And even when you DO figure it out (like the launch-into-Yoga Strike)
they can't DO anything about it! It's unbelievabe..! HOrse, take it from
me, abusing S.Roundhouse is NOTHING compared to abusing that
launch->Yoga Strike attack! For two hits, and nigh uncounterablilty if
timed right, it does WAAAY too much damage..! You should have seen how I
finished off a guy who had bth his characters with around 30% each while
my Dhalsim (onyl one left) had 5%. Basically, it was walk
under-->launch-->Yoga Strike (death)... Walk up to incoming
character-->slide under jump-in-->launch-->Yoga Strike (death).
Unbelievable. I'm the undisputed King of Cheese now... :\
> > > They can get annoying, particularly when they do little but
> super-jumping strong punches to fill up the meter, but they're not too
> hard to deal with. Killing a flailing Wolvie inside twenty seconds with a thoughtful Rogue is one of my joys in life.
> >
> > Heh.. Nothing like seeing the look on a Wolvie (or any other character)
> > flailer after seeing his special/super/whatever get FABed AGAIN... ^_^
>
> Oh, yes, I had fun showing someone Mega Z this week. "Crawler Assault",
> few hits, super sound and reanimation, sound of jaw hitting floor,
> "Final...Atomic...Buster!" Sorry, Armored Spidey...(HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!)
Beautiful man. Simply beautiful. Especially the part about jaw hitting
the ground. I wonder if his jaw hit harder than when I snatched a guy
out of a Shin Shoryuken (after absorbing the first hit)..?
And don't forget - ringing the joystick and mashing buttons actually
increases the damage done (for both Z and Mega Z)... Sad, but true...
> > > >"GRAAA!": Use ridiculously over-prioritized jumping attacks to setup
> air-combo
> > > >into air-throw, into Super, or setup for infinite.
> > >
> > > There are numerous characters who can go through those air attacks with
> > > no problem. Plus he dies against turtles hardcore.
> >
> > Who's "GRAAA"..? Hulk? I don't find him *that* bad... Turtling hardcore
> > does work best against him...
> No, GRAAA is a new term for Sabretooth, who uses said phrase about every time he does a move in X-MvSF.
Silly me.. I should have known that... Never really played XSF.. And the
only reason I was even *partially* motivated to play MSF was because I
wanted to see the DFAB thingy... And this Mega Z who could walk through
supers (dammit! I GOTTA do that at least once.. :) The rest is
history.. ^_^
I have no idea why I picked Dhalsim though. I tried Bison, but found his
moves way too screwed up from what I was used to, and he seemed slow
like hell... Yeah, I know he's a skill character, but I'm only in this
to decimate as many people as I can with Dhal and Z/Mega Z. And I swear,
since playing Mega Z, I've started to trash-talk in a bad Russian
accent.. ;p
Lord BBH
> Rogue was scrubby and chessy, and not very intresting IMO,
WHAT?!!? How? Rogue is one of the few characters in XSF who is actually SKILL.
Not very interesting? Despite the fact that playing her can be an entirely new
experience against different characters based on what special moves you steal?
That's called variety, and variety is the spice of life. Rogue was too good to
be in that scrubby game. But somehow I just knew she wouldn't make it to the
next one.
> I never liked Rogue, to many people relied on tick,dashthrow (yes
>i know its counterable, but not easily, ) super. yea theres 50% of your life.
Dude... with damage scaling it's only like 1/3 if you do it after the kiss
throw, not 50%, And that ONLY works if Rogue is in the corner... so I guess
when you corner her you have to stay alert, huh? Still, regardless, so many
characters can easily throw into super (or even infinite) that Rogue's combo of
this was meaningless. Anyone who relied on this must really suck (but I don't
see scrubs playing Rogue, you know they don't leave their WAR CORKS (the OR
means "or", and S is Sabretooth)) and was easy to beat. A Rogue player who
knows how to make the best of her combos and stolen special moves is one that
should be feared, and that's what I always strived to be
.
----
Matt Hall (lor...@aol.com)
"Get out of my way, all of you! This is no place for loafers!
Join me or die! Can you do no less?" - Mr. Sparkle
Dark Schneider
> WHAT?!!? How? Rogue is one of the few characters in XSF who is actually SKILL.
> Not very interesting? Despite the fact that playing her can be an entirely new
> experience against different characters based on what special moves you steal?
> That's called variety, and variety is the spice of life. Rogue was too good to
> be in that scrubby game. But somehow I just knew she wouldn't make it to the
> next one.
Well... nothing in XSF was really and trully skill. It's like saying you have skill in MK. It's all
relative. Rogue wasn't too good for anything, really. She was an excellent character concept, but she relied
too heavily on specific moves and specific strategies (though stealing certain people's moves added different
twists to her).
> Dude... with damage scaling it's only like 1/3 if you do it after the kiss
> throw, not 50%, And that ONLY works if Rogue is in the corner... so I guess
> when you corner her you have to stay alert, huh? Still, regardless, so many
> characters can easily throw into super (or even infinite) that Rogue's combo of
> this was meaningless. Anyone who relied on this must really suck (but I don't
> see scrubs playing Rogue, you know they don't leave their WAR CORKS (the OR
> means "or", and S is Sabretooth)) and was easy to beat. A Rogue player who
> knows how to make the best of her combos and stolen special moves is one that
> should be feared, and that's what I always strived to be
Very true about the ol' damage scaling. Hitting clean was the only way Rogue's super could get close
to 50%. However, the OR in WAR CORKS is Omega Red, and the S is Spiderman, not Sabretooth. At the time we came
up with that, we were discussing MSF. Although I s'pose if we wanted to convert it to XSF, that would be a
good way to go about doing it.
David Alexander S Dial
In article <348B1E...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>
> Well... nothing in XSF was really and trully skill. It's like saying you have skill in MK. It's all
>relative. Rogue wasn't too good for anything, really. She was an excellent character concept, but she relied
>too heavily on specific moves and specific strategies (though stealing certain people's moves added different
>twists to her).
One dive kick or jumping short on any character Storm/Cyke's height or
taller meant INFINITE. On ALL versions (confirmed it on version ass
yesterday in the arcade). At any point in the infinite, if you get bored
(usually around hit 60 :), you could do a ground combo off the dive kick
into a super...
David Alexander S. Dial
"Stop whining. If it's in the game, it's in the game."
Dark Schneider
> One dive kick or jumping short on any character Storm/Cyke's height or
> taller meant INFINITE. On ALL versions (confirmed it on version ass
> yesterday in the arcade). At any point in the infinite, if you get bored
> (usually around hit 60 :), you could do a ground combo off the dive kick
> into a super...
SHHHH!!! What if any scrubs are listening? You don't want them to know! :)
But after the 60th hit, the super does like a pixel of damage.
Stilt Man
In article <348745...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I liked,
>> they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone. Bison? Slowed down badly
>> enough that *neither* of his supers combos any more. Dhalsim? Ditto.
>> (C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being able to combo the weenie
>> roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super berserker?) Juggernaut?
>> Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
>> Great, more Shotoklones. Just what I always wanted.
> Weenie roast... funny. I miss Rogue and Juggs, but I actually like
>Blackheart and Shuma. They bring a different dimension to the series.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I *like* Shuma; he's my favorite character in MSF
(though I would like Bison and Dhalsim as much if they'd left them alone).
Blackheart I'm not real fond of because there's little way to play him
that doesn't involve trying to turtle from most of the screen's length away,
just like Cyclops. He's certainly a lot different of a character, but
trying to get in close to him just annoys me too much. He'll probably grow
on me as time goes on and I figure out a thing or two.
>> Character imbalance? In MSF, I can see it to some degree, though it's not
>> completely hopeless. In XSF, I just don't see character imbalance.
>> There are some low-rent characters, yes, but most of them have serious
>> limits on what they can do against a competent opponent.
> ?? How can massive priority have a serious limitation?
I am categorically unimpressed by the "massive priority" argument. Rogue
and Cammy go through Sabretooth and Wolvie's vaunted priorities like they
were tissue paper, and they both do heinous damage per hit. With Rogue,
you gear up the standing roundhouse for regular jumps and the crouching
fierce for super jumps. Clean or trade, every time, and even the trade
works to your favor with the kind of damage Rogue does. And Cammy is just
a thing of beauty for these guys. See, Tooth and Wolvie do you this nice
favor and start growling whenever they do an aerial move, so you can listen
for that and cannon spike their teeth back into their brain cavity. Deal
out three or four and these guys are in rehab trying to work their way back
up to solid foods again. And if your reflexes aren't that fast, that's what
jumping roundhouses are for.
And either way, it's not like these guys can do much to you if you turtle.
Neither one of them has an appreciable whittle move that doesn't leave their
pants down around their ankles for whatever you feel like doing to them in
return. Turtle up, watch for the counterthrow, and pick your shots and
both of those two are useless, priority or no priority.
>Or a full-screen dash?
Nothing that Cammy doesn't have.
>Or an optic-blast with next to zero lag?
Before, yes. Afterwards, he has lag bad enough that half the characters in
the game can tie that visor of his in a square knot. Just to run down a list:
1. Rogue's rushing punches or super
2. Bison's scissors or super
3. Juggernaut's low forward or super (super is the best; fill up that meter
and you will never see an optic blast again if the opponent has any brains,
because you can take him down from ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE BLOOMING SCREEN)
4. Dhalsim's limbs or super
5. Cammy's cannon drill or super
6. Magneto's jab disruptor
7. Sabretooth's berserker, normal or super
8. Chun Li's LK super
9. Ken's Shoryureppa
10. (maybe) Ryu's Shinkuu-hadoken
That covers most of the characters in the game, no? Cyclops is *helpless*
if you stay within about half the screen's distance with most characters.
He can do absolutely nothing to whittle you, while most of the above can
whittle away at him with impunity, reducing his turtle game to shreds.
>> And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or "GRAAAAH!"
>> when I'm feeling like being annoying.
> A trained monkey can play a "reasonably effective" Kyklopes/Berserker
>Turd. A decent player is tough to beat with any of those three.
Cyclops? Don't make me laugh. People have long since gotten smart enough
not to play Cyclops when I'm anywhere in the building. I just plain know too
much about which characters can eat those optic blasts for lunch. And
Sabretooth . . . same thing. Be cautious, pick your characters right, and
pick your hits, and there's little he can do against you.
>> And to some extent, playing Ken
>> effectively also translates to playing Ryu or Akuma effectively, although
>> the missing Shoryureppa and various other flaws in the other two make them
>> a bit less fun to play. There are simply few things more fun than roasting
>> someone with a Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if
>> it's Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
> You mean Shinryuken, right? The Shoryureppa is nothing more than a
>combo invitation if you try and use it as an anti-air weapon.
Yeah, that's right. I got the two mixed up.
>> No. You don't play Rogue the same way against any two characters unless
>> their stolen powers are useless. Yet I kick most anyone's butt with her.
> That's one move. Besides, I enjoy a good Rogue too. However, the
>majority of the moves she steals are just ways to add an extra hit or
>two at the end of combos. Explain to me the differences in strategy for using
>a stolen Ryu fireball and a stolen Cammy Cannon Drill and you get a cookie.
That's a sucker call. Cammy's cannon drill is, as you say, largely useless
except at the end of a combo. Ryu's fireball, on the other hand, has all
sorts of nice things for Rogue to do with it. The hit-area box on the thing
is heinous when you throw it, so a fireball at the last second makes a nearly
foolproof air defense if they're in front of you that will either take them
out clean or push them back if they air-block, making Rogue a lot harder to
attack. Plus against anyone except Cyclops or Storm, it makes a very nice
long-distance whittle weapon that she doesn't otherwise have. And against
Cyclops and Storm, you want to be in their face mauling them with Rogue's
raw power anyhow, so that's moot.
In short, Rogue by herself is an up close and personal kind of gal. Cammy's
cannon drill doesn't change that, while Ryu's fireball gives her a long range
option that she doesn't otherwise have.
>Just because the patterns are different from person to person... it doesn't
>mean they're not patterns.
If you play pattern with Rogue, you die. It's that simple. If they see
what you're doing coming, you die. There's little way around that; Rogue
cannot attack with the kind of impunity that allows her to get into
patterns. She's good on close range offense, she's good on close range
defense, but she's terrible on long range defense unless she steals something
really nice from someone. She can't attack with the kind of impunity that
lets you go into patterns even when you are at close range. You have to
know tricks to get in and stay there and you have to vary them in a way
that they don't see it coming, because if people can predict what you're
doing with her, they can keep you at a distance and eat you for lunch.
And I know this is blasphemy to say about a "vs." character, but I'm quite
willing to venture to say that Rogue is easily one of the most complex and
changing-to-fit-her-opponent characters that the fighting game industry has
ever produced. The only one I can think of that comes anywhere close in
games I've played is Bison from about SSF2.
Stilt Man
In article <34871F...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>,
Edward Liu <maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Stilt Man wrote:
>> In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
>> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> > Just out of curiousity's
>> >sake.... why would anyone like either vs. game any more than another
>> >one? Cast of characters? That's the only thing I can think of.
>> That's a modest amount of it for me. Pretty much every character I
>> liked, they yanked or badly weakened. Rogue? Gone.
>Yeah, I miss her too... *sniff*
Main sniff for me...
>> Bison? Slowed down badly enough that *neither* of his supers combos
>> any more.
>Sure they do, you just have to combo the Psycho Crusher or Scissor Kick
>Nightmare off of a standing roundhouse. Just dash in after a jump
>attack and standing short, standing roundhouse (2 hits), either super.
Icko. I managed to get it to combo once off of a standing forward, so
maybe all hope isn't lost. I guess I just need to time it better.
>I really don't mind the new delay on the Psycho Crusher, since it hurts
>about TWICE as much as it used to if you connect with it.
I wouldn't go that far. If you mash on the buttons on XSF, you can get
some pretty vicious damage off the thing. I haven't played Bison for a
while on MSF so I'm not sure of mashing makes a difference there. What
I've noticed doesn't show me a huge disparity; the psycho crusher was,
when mashed, one of the meaner supers in XSF. The slowness really hurts
a lot of what I used to use it for: punishing people for doing something
stupid.
>I think Bison
>actually got _better_ in MSF, thanks to this higher damage super,
>Psylocke-like teleport, and improved Psycho Field.
What, you're talking about that multi-hit slow-moving explosion thing he
does, right? Haven't played with that, as I pretty much never used any
of his projectiles in XSF except as an "I don't take you seriously" weapon.
>> Dhalsim? Ditto. (C'mon, Capcom, what the hell was wrong with being
>> able to combo the weenie roast that wasn't also wrong with, say, super
>> berserker?)
>Good question. I've never seen anyone connect with the MSF Yoga
>Inferno...
I've gotten a few scrubs with it on blocked Shoryureppas, suckered fireball
exchanges, and character swaps. It's nowhere near as useful as it used to
be. Putting him in the game together with Shuma gets painful for the quick
super department.
>And don't forget:
>Cammy *quadruple sniff*
Yeah, I miss her.
>Gambit *quintiple sniff*
Don't miss him.
>Charlie. OHMYGODWHATTHEFUCKDIDTHEYDOTOHIM?!?!?! *deep breath*
Heh heh.
>Saberto... well, actually, I don't mind that... :)
At least he'd be different from all the damn Shotoklones.
>> And in their place we have . . . Hulk? Dull.
>Hulk's awsome in MSF, but given the choice between him and Juggie...
Yup. Juggernaut had more character. Hulk is basically a shorter-ranged,
faster, and slightly more painful version of Juggy, but with a much slower
set of supers. (That head crush was *fast*...)
>> Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
>> Omega Red? Annoying. Blackheart? Annoying.
>Aw, c'mon. They're fun to use so long as you don't become one
>dimensional with them...
Blackheart can't be played much except in turtle mode. His moves are
just plain too slow to use close up. He'll probably grow on me eventually.
Omega Red is just annoying.
Shuma is fun but rather high-rent.
>> See, in XSF you could play most any of the characters and be
>> reasonably assured of some effectiveness if you knew what you were
>> doing. In MSF... well, it's a Mortal Kombat game, for all intents and
>> purposes. All the non-Shotoklones have their weaknesses and most of
>> the supers don't combo while all the Shotoklones' do,
>o_O Uh, I don't follow you there...
In other words, most of the guys other than the Shotoklones (and Wolverine)
don't have supers that you can chain together on things easily. Dhalsim?
Zip. Shuma? Zip. Blackheart? Zip. Bison? Sorta, but not easily. Chun
Li? Okay, you can chain hers together (I think).
On the other hand, you've got Ken, Ryu, Akuma, and Wolverine, all of whom
can easily poke their way into a super. You've got Cyclops, who seems
weaker on the surface because his optic blast is slower but is actually
stronger in the long run because most of the characters who were able to
punish him after a blocked one have been removed and replaced with Shotoklones
that can't.
>> and you've got lots of stupid secret characters in there to pick.
>> Boring!
>You crazy?! Mega-Zangief is one of the most fun-to-play characters in
>ANY fighting game!
I just plain hate "secret characters" on principle.
>I think what Dark Schneider is trying to point out is this:
>You can be a complete master of Rogue and Bison, and your opponent using
>Wolverine and Sabertooth may not even be half your skill level. But
>your opponent does know:
> 1) Wolvie's air combos & infinite and
> 2) Sabertooth's air combo & air-throw into multiple supers and
> 3) Very little else.
>Chances are that you'll have to put twice as much effort into your game
>just to beat him. Oh sure, he won't beat you, but he'll be sure to give
>you a run for your money.
Not really. Sabretooth is actually quite weak against Rogue, and so is
Wolvie. They just can't get in through her defense, and most of what they
can do makes them bait for one of her many painful counters. You have to
get through her defenses sooner or later to even connect those things, and
against Rogue with these guys, that just doesn't happen. Sabretooth can
potentially get through Bison's, but Wolvie won't. And the painful counters
department goes nearly bad from Bison as it does from Rogue. Oh, it'd take
some effort, but as long as you're playing your kind of game with Rogue and
Bison, those two are not even going to be coming close to par with you. If
they are, you need to learn Rogue and Bison better. :)
>> And, yes, I can play a reasonably effective Cyclops, Wolverine, or
>> "GRAAAAH!" when I'm feeling like being annoying.
>Who can't play these three?
Actually, I feel they're all very over-rated. Cyclops is nearly useless if
you know how to stop him and mean if you don't. Wolverine can get annoying
but that's it. Sabretooth has a hard time even getting that far.
>> And to some extent, playing Ken effectively also translates to playing
>> Ryu or Akuma effectively, although the missing Shoryureppa and various
>> other flaws in the other two make them a bit less fun to play. There
>> are simply few things more fun than roasting someone with a
>> Shoryureppa when they stick out an air move, particularly if it's
>> Wolvie, Chun, or "GRAAAAH!"
>You mean Shinryuken, not Shouryu Reppa, don't you?
Yeah, I got 'em mixed up there.
>And like DS has said before, it's not losing to these people that's the
>problem. It's playing these SAME Cykes/Wolvies/"GRAAA!!!"s with the
>SAME playing styles over, and over, and over, and over, and ov...
>How many people where you play actually touch Rogue, or Cammy, or
>Juggie?
>Now compare this number to the people that play Cyke, or the Weapon X
>Bros. If this number's anything like the number at my arcade, things
>get dull VERY quickly.
Actually, we don't run into very many of those here at all. I've played
a few of them when I've gone to other cities to play, and there *used* to
be a fair number of them, but the skill curve at my arcade has actually
stayed high enough that we don't see too many Cyclops, Wolverine, or
Sabretooth players at all. The few that still are around then to go away
with lipstick prints all over 'em. :)
How many Rogues, Cammys, and Jugs? We have a Jug or two, I still see the
occasional Cammy, and we see the occasional Rogue (though I'm the only
really competent one). That's actually about the same as the afore-mentioned
folks. Not too many of them, usually showing up when people from other
arcades where they haven't learned any better. Most common characters
here are, by far, K/R/A. And actually, they're more effective against
most of the characters I play, so this might have something to do with it. :)
Dark Schneider
> Oh, don't get me wrong. I *like* Shuma; he's my favorite character in MSF
> (though I would like Bison and Dhalsim as much if they'd left them alone).
> Blackheart I'm not real fond of because there's little way to play him
> that doesn't involve trying to turtle from most of the screen's length away,
> just like Cyclops. He's certainly a lot different of a character, but
> trying to get in close to him just annoys me too much. He'll probably grow
> on me as time goes on and I figure out a thing or two.
He will. BH is pretty much a long-range machine. However, he can be interesting if played with
aggression. Just have to be careful. As for Bison and 'Slim, what changes? 'Slim loses a lot of the
combo-ability on the Inferno, but gains an un-techable Strike. Bison's teleport changes, the timing on
comboing the Psycho Crusher is different, and the Psycho Field (for lack of a better term) doesn't have QUITE
the slowdown it had in XSF. Both guys became more appealing for me in MSF. However....
> > ?? How can massive priority have a serious limitation?
> I am categorically unimpressed by the "massive priority" argument. Rogue
> and Cammy go through Sabretooth and Wolvie's vaunted priorities like they
> were tissue paper, and they both do heinous damage per hit. With Rogue,
> you gear up the standing roundhouse for regular jumps and the crouching
> fierce for super jumps. Clean or trade, every time, and even the trade
> works to your favor with the kind of damage Rogue does.
Perhaps, but you must realize that the Berserker Turds have sick speed to go with that priority, so
catching them in their move isn't always as easy as you make out to be. Anyone with a quick, high-priority
launcher (Rogue, ARK) can usually trade with their air attacks, but anyone w/o a high-priority launcher or a
quick anti-air move is screwed. 'Slim, Bison, Z, Gambit, Charlie, Mags, and Jugs will get hit cleanly 9 times
out of 10 if they try to out-prioritize the "Hairy Team". 'Slim doesn't have a single attack that can come out
quick enough to beat a deep Sabretooth J. Roundhouse. Juggy reels from a Roundhouse, so he can't use the super
armor to retaliate. The point I'm getting at is this: Rogue, ARK, Cammy, Cyclops may be able to get off
attacks quick enough, but the rest are forced to turtle. Which is BORING.
> And Cammy is just
> a thing of beauty for these guys. See, Tooth and Wolvie do you this nice
> favor and start growling whenever they do an aerial move, so you can listen
> for that and cannon spike their teeth back into their brain cavity. Deal
> out three or four and these guys are in rehab trying to work their way back
> up to solid foods again. And if your reflexes aren't that fast, that's what
> jumping roundhouses are for.
Yes, she can. One whiff or block, however, and you're eating a big air combo into infinite or air
combo into air throw into Super. 60%. So much for Cammy. And the majority (read:nearly all) of characters who
try to outprioritize a jumping WS Roundhouse with one of their own will be unceremoniously trounced.
> And either way, it's not like these guys can do much to you if you turtle.
> Neither one of them has an appreciable whittle move that doesn't leave their
> pants down around their ankles for whatever you feel like doing to them in
> return. Turtle up, watch for the counterthrow, and pick your shots and
> both of those two are useless, priority or no priority.
But who wants to turtle to win a match? Not I. Their priority is very beatable, but it makes the game
boring, predictable, and generally un-exciting.
> >Or a full-screen dash?
>
> Nothing that Cammy doesn't have.
Yes, but does she have a severe damage air-combo, huge priority on jumping attacks, and a relatively
simple infinite? No.
> >Or an optic-blast with next to zero lag?
>
> Before, yes. Afterwards, he has lag bad enough that half the characters in
> the game can tie that visor of his in a square knot. Just to run down a list:
>
> 1. Rogue's rushing punches or super
> 2. Bison's scissors or super
> 3. Juggernaut's low forward or super (super is the best; fill up that meter
> and you will never see an optic blast again if the opponent has any brains,
> because you can take him down from ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE BLOOMING SCREEN)
> 4. Dhalsim's limbs or super
> 5. Cammy's cannon drill or super
> 6. Magneto's jab disruptor
> 7. Sabretooth's berserker, normal or super
> 8. Chun Li's LK super
> 9. Ken's Shoryureppa
> 10. (maybe) Ryu's Shinkuu-hadoken
> That covers most of the characters in the game, no? Cyclops is *helpless*
> if you stay within about half the screen's distance with most characters.
> He can do absolutely nothing to whittle you, while most of the above can
> whittle away at him with impunity, reducing his turtle game to shreds.
But then the question is: How does one get anywhere near Cyclops in order to stay within half-distance
of the screen. Answer: If they're good, you don't. Some characters (read:pixies) can keep up with Cyclops, but
the ones who can't get the run-around.
> > A trained monkey can play a "reasonably effective" Kyklopes/Berserker
> >Turd. A decent player is tough to beat with any of those three.
>
> Cyclops? Don't make me laugh. People have long since gotten smart enough
> not to play Cyclops when I'm anywhere in the building. I just plain know too
> much about which characters can eat those optic blasts for lunch. And
> Sabretooth . . . same thing. Be cautious, pick your characters right, and
> pick your hits, and there's little he can do against you.
Then you obviously don't have enough competition. An above average Kyklopes/Tooth combo can wreak
havoc unless you really know what you're doing. I personally bring in Z/Bison/'Slim/Gambit/Chuckles and have a
field day on the SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS, but that doesn't keep them from being priority whores and unbelievably
boring.
> That's a sucker call. Cammy's cannon drill is, as you say, largely useless
> except at the end of a combo. Ryu's fireball, on the other hand, has all
> sorts of nice things for Rogue to do with it. The hit-area box on the thing
> is heinous when you throw it, so a fireball at the last second makes a nearly
> foolproof air defense if they're in front of you that will either take them
> out clean or push them back if they air-block, making Rogue a lot harder to
> attack.
Yeah, but what good player is stupid enough to play an in-close game with Rogue? ('cept for Z)
> Plus against anyone except Cyclops or Storm, it makes a very nice
> long-distance whittle weapon that she doesn't otherwise have.
True.
> And against
> Cyclops and Storm, you want to be in their face mauling them with Rogue's
> raw power anyhow, so that's moot.
Correct.
> In short, Rogue by herself is an up close and personal kind of gal. Cammy's
> cannon drill doesn't change that, while Ryu's fireball gives her a long range
> option that she doesn't otherwise have.
All of her stolen fireballs (saving Chuckles) are virtually useless in the end, and add little to her
overall game. Mag's hyper grav has disgusting lag time, and is therefore useless. Z's SPD is nice, but she
doesn't have the range Z has on it.
> And I know this is blasphemy to say about a "vs." character, but I'm quite
> willing to venture to say that Rogue is easily one of the most complex and
> changing-to-fit-her-opponent characters that the fighting game industry has
> ever produced. The only one I can think of that comes anywhere close in
> games I've played is Bison from about SSF2.
Like I said earlier, she is an excellent character concept (a rarity in the Marvel engine), but she
lacks certain basic fundamentals to make her a top-tier character. Super Bison was fairly poor. CE/HF Bison
was fairly vicious. Alpha Bison is fun, but is a middle to bottom-tier character.
> < We are Microsoft Borg '97. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
Funny.
Milo D. Cooper
> Stilt Man wrote:
>> In article <348745...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
>>
>> ?? How can massive priority have a serious limitation?
>
> I am categorically unimpressed by the "massive priority" argument. Rogue
> and Cammy go through Sabretooth and Wolvie's vaunted priorities like they
> were tissue paper, and they both do heinous damage per hit. With Rogue,
> you gear up the standing roundhouse for regular jumps and the crouching
> fierce for super jumps. Clean or trade, every time, and even the trade
> works to your favor with the kind of damage Rogue does. And Cammy is just
> a thing of beauty for these guys. See, Tooth and Wolvie do you this nice
> favor and start growling whenever they do an aerial move, so you can listen
> for that and cannon spike their teeth back into their brain cavity. Deal
> out three or four and these guys are in rehab trying to work their way back
> up to solid foods again. And if your reflexes aren't that fast, that's what
> jumping roundhouses are for.
Cammy is indeed good vs. Sabretooth, but Wolverine?? I have
better matches against Wolverine with *Cyclops*. Unlike Sabre-
tooth, who relies chiefly on jump-ins, Wolverine's best move is
dash in with low short; it's extremely fast and he can't be hit
high while doing it, and if he connects with it, he can chain it
into 20%-100% damage. If his opponent blocks, no biggie, he
needn't fear retaliation; the worst that can happen to him is a
push-block. I play Cammy vs. Wolverine constantly, and I've yet
to come up with a reliable counter-strategem. What can you do?
She can stop the dash in without trading with a standing fierce
or roundhouse, but Wolverine is so fast that he can connect with
the running short *before* her hard attack even comes out. So
far, only Cyke's low fierce makes them think twice.
> And either way, it's not like these guys can do much to you if you turtle.
> Neither one of them has an appreciable whittle move that doesn't leave their
> pants down around their ankles for whatever you feel like doing to them in
> return. Turtle up, watch for the counterthrow, and pick your shots and
> both of those two are useless, priority or no priority.
Turtling. The most effective, most boring solution -- until
your turtling makes you predictable, as soon it must, since you
aren't attacking, and since you limit yourself to a reactionary
game.
>>Or a full-screen dash?
>
> Nothing that Cammy doesn't have.
But Cammy can't extend a dash-in short into an infinite combo,
or even 20% damage.
>> Or an optic-blast with next to zero lag?
>
> Before, yes. Afterwards, he has lag bad enough that half the characters in
> the game can tie that visor of his in a square knot. Just to run down a list:
> [...]
True, the optic blast isn't nearly as bad as dashing low short.
>> A trained monkey can play a "reasonably effective" Kyklopes/Berserker
>> Turd. A decent player is tough to beat with any of those three.
>
> Cyclops? Don't make me laugh. People have long since gotten smart enough
> not to play Cyclops when I'm anywhere in the building. I just plain know too
> much about which characters can eat those optic blasts for lunch. And
> Sabretooth . . . same thing. Be cautious, pick your characters right, and
> pick your hits, and there's little he can do against you.
> [...]
I agree, Cyke and Sabretooth, though great characters, aren't
overly powerful. Wolverine is something else, though. He is easily
the cheesiest, most ridiculous character in XMvSF, with the bastard
Charlie at a close second. Cyke and Sabretooth are probably around
fifth place, or so.
Stilt Man
In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,
Quanah S. Harjo <hqu...@okstate.edu> wrote:
>As I said later in the post, SF is also pattern based. It's just that it
>has a MUCH wider variety than the Vs. games.
Not really. SF2 had basically four or five classes of characters: Guile,
FB/DPers, chaos close-up melee-ers, Dhalsim, and characters that sucked.
If you knew the basics of the game you could switch between any one of them
but you generally needed to know a lot to tackle someone who really knew
what they were doing. 90% of the people played FB/DPers, almost no one
played Dhalsim except at high-end arcades, and few people played Guile or
melee characters.
Now, you've got two classes of masses. You've got the Shotoklone players
who are still around, and you've got the Cyclops/Wolvie/Sabretooth guys.
Sure, there's still a lot of scrub players . . . but at least the characters
are *varied* in what they play now. Dealing with a Ken or Ryu is not the
same as dealing with a Wolverine, Cyclops, Sabretooth, or Spidey. At
least there's *some* variety to it, instead of EVERYONE playing Ken or
Ryu. Plus, there is no "characters that suck" category. If you're a good
player, you can make pretty much any one of the 17 characters in XSF work
well. (Dunno about MSF . . . they've taken out half of 'em and toned down
most of the other half.) The number of patterns is actually wider in the
Vs. game just because of the fact that 75% of the characters don't suck.
Best of all, no more of those damned whining no-throwers. If I waltz in
and utterly kick someone's tail with Rogue or Dhalsim or Bison, I don't
hear people saying I'm just being a cheesy thrower (even when I rarely
ticked back in the old days). And instead of my complex change-to-fit-my-
enemy Bison from SF2, I've got my complex change-to-fit-my-enemy Rogue
now in XSF.
If I could just have that same Bison (DAMMIT, GIMME BACK MY HEAD STOMP!!!)
that I used to, I'd be quite happy with where it is.
>I'd find an estimate of 1% to be...low. The Vs. games are fast-paced, and
>don't rely on psyche-out games (with huge-ass moves like these, there isn't
>much room for psyche-out games). When I play them, I just don't find myself
>thinking at all about what's going on, I just play. I play an SF game, and
>I'm CONSTANTLY thinking. Perhaps it's different for you, but the Vs. games
>are just no-brainers for me.
Speak for yourself. I play psyche out quite a bit. There's still no
underestimating the value of instilling fear in your opponent. There
are guys in my arcade who just freeze up and die whenever they see me
at the controls with Rogue, and there are others who do reasonably well
against me . . . yet the two of them also are halfway equally matched
when I take a step back and let them have the machine. I'm *definitely*
thinking when I'm on there with my best characters. With the second or
third tier, no, but if I've got Rogue, Bison, Juggernaut, or Cammy in
there, I'm definitely thinking. None of them has any easy whittle weapon
unless they're close up (if then), but they're all very powerful under the
right circumstances. If my opponent isn't thinking as much as I am, they
tend to die unless they can throw me off my game somehow.
>> The VS engine tilts towards
>> > two major components: heavy aggression and large combos.
>> Except neither are especially advantageous for creating winning stratigies...
>Those are the basis of around 3/4 of all the characters gameplans. Only
>a few are real defensive types (Cyclops springs to mind).
Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm are all nearly purely defensive characters in
XSF. Wolverine, Chun Li, and Sabretooth are all nearly purely offensive
characters. The rest of the field is somewhere in between depending on
who they're up against.
Back to Rogue . . . the game plan changes depending on who you're up against.
1. Cyclops, Magneto, Storm, Dhalsim: in-their-face aggressive.
2. Ryu, Charlie: aggressive until you get their powers, then you can
go partially or completely defensive.
3. Bison, Cammy, Zangief, Juggernaut: mix it up on offense and defense, and
be careful, because if they know what they're doing they can hurt you in a
hurry.
4. Wolverine, Sabretooth, Chun Li: you wouldn't mind being aggressive,
but you'd sure as hell better have a defense plan in mind.
5. Gambit, Ken, Akuma: mix it up again, but you can be a little less
careful. Their powers are generally useless for you to play defense with,
but their defensive abilities are also weak, so it'll probably alternate
with both of you on offense at different times. Have a plan for being
"on both sides of the ball".
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
Onaje Everett
Stilt Man (stil...@user1.teleport.com) wrote:
: In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,: >> The VS engine tilts towards
: >> > two major components: heavy aggression and large combos.
: >> Except neither are especially advantageous for creating winning stratigies...
: >Those are the basis of around 3/4 of all the characters gameplans. Only
: >a few are real defensive types (Cyclops springs to mind).
: Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm are all nearly purely defensive characters in
: XSF.
WHOA, Stilt!!
Storm is defensive. Cyclops and Magneto are better used offensively
because both can do massive damage quickly by comboing into their supers
or even air combos.
Both have good keep-away game, but it's overrated.
Other than that...doing great. :)
Ultima
Dark Schneider wrote:
[SLAAASSSSHHHHH!]
Sorry about the slash. I only wanted to make a minor point. As for the
previous discussion, SCAR WORK are boring as hell and Wolverine/Spidey
(is Spidey one of the beserker boys..? In princible, if not in moves)
are unquestiobaly high-priority whores. The local "Master" in MSF
(actually, in Sf generally), and my strongest competition, seldom ever
fights me without either Wolverine or Akuma on his team, both of whom
I'm convinced he can jump in whole day with on Zangief (not Mega) with
endless air-chains and not have a thing to worry about because anymove Z
sticks out, especially with Wolverine, gets stopped about 90% of the
time, which usually follows with anywhere from a 4 - 11 hit combo and a
big wad of power gone. The only way I beat him is if Dhalsim does
double-duty and basically brings his two characters to their knees
and/or eliminates one, because Z is no come-back character against moves
that totally cork his own.
> Super Bison was fairly poor. CE/HF Bison
> was fairly vicious. Alpha Bison is fun, but is a middle to bottom-tier character.
Super Bison was so so. I didnt get as much experience with him as I
would have liked, but I think ST Bison ruled. Ce and HF Bison were VERY
viscious, but CE was much stronger due to the 7-hit block damage torpedo
and the no lag on Scissors. Turbo BIson was considerably weakened from
CE, and his total lack of defense made him bottom-tier. Alpha Bison has
better defense, but not as great offense, which puts him in the middle
IMO...
> > < We are Microsoft Borg '97. Lower your expectations and >
> > < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> > < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> > < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> > < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>
> Funny.
>
> --
> Dark Schneider, Editor at High Voltage Online
> A Fighter's Dream Come True
> http://fighters.simplenet.com/hv/
>
> "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
> Of course, I'm not sure about the former." - Einstein
>
> SF Code 5.0:
> (Z+ S(SFA2,SSF2T)>+ K+ G(SF2HF) Bd(SFA))
> [ac- ch- cn c+ cc- 2- g+ m n+:+ o+ os+ !p r-(+ vs. ARK)
> s sp-- st ta- tm-: th- tr-:-- v+]
--
Edward Liu
Stilt Man wrote:
>
> In article <34871F...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>,
> Edward Liu <maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >Stilt Man wrote:
> >> In article <348650...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> >> Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
<SNIP>
> >> Bison? Slowed down badly enough that *neither* of his supers
> >> combos any more.
>
> >Sure they do, you just have to combo the Psycho Crusher or Scissor
> >Kick Nightmare off of a standing roundhouse. Just dash in after a
> >jump attack and standing short, standing roundhouse (2 hits), either
> >super.
Sorry, here, folks. You can't combo the Scissor Kick Nightmare off of
anything. I dunno what I was thinking...
> Icko. I managed to get it to combo once off of a standing forward, so
> maybe all hope isn't lost. I guess I just need to time it better.
I've never gotten it to connect off a forward. Stick with the 2-hit
roundhouse. It takes off more anyways and make your life a hell of a
lot easier.
> >I really don't mind the new delay on the Psycho Crusher, since it
> >hurts about TWICE as much as it used to if you connect with it.
>
> I wouldn't go that far. If you mash on the buttons on XSF, you can
> get some pretty vicious damage off the thing. I haven't played Bison
> for a while on MSF so I'm not sure of mashing makes a difference
> there.
XvSF: No mashing: 20% damage
Mashing: > 25% damage
MSF: No mashing: 30% damage
Mashing: < 50% damage
> What I've noticed doesn't show me a huge disparity; the psycho crusher
> was, when mashed, one of the meaner supers in XSF. The slowness
> really hurts a lot of what I used to use it for: punishing people for
> doing something stupid.
True, he did lose that ability. At least he still has the Scissor Knee.
> >I think Bison
> >actually got _better_ in MSF, thanks to this higher damage super,
> >Psylocke-like teleport, and improved Psycho Field.
>
> What, you're talking about that multi-hit slow-moving explosion thing
> he does, right? Haven't played with that, as I pretty much never used
> any of his projectiles in XSF except as an "I don't take you
> seriously" weapon.
It's actually pretty good now, well, the jab version, at least. Just
play a poking game with your S. Strongs and S. Forwards. When he gets
too complacent with blocking your attacks, use it.
<SNIP>
> >> Shuma-Gorath? Halfway effective but weakened badly in his defense.
> >> Omega Red? Annoying. Blackheart? Annoying.
>
> >Aw, c'mon. They're fun to use so long as you don't become one
> >dimensional with them...
>
> Blackheart can't be played much except in turtle mode. His moves are
> just plain too slow to use close up. He'll probably grow on me
> eventually.
Have you ever even tried to play Blackheart aggressively? That J.
Forward has excellent priority against jumpers, and that J. Strong has
awsome range. With BH, I actually have an easier time against Spidey
and Wolvie if I play aggressively against them. If I turtle, they'll
eventually use their speed to get through my defenses and rip me to
shreds.
> Omega Red is just annoying.
>
> Shuma is fun but rather high-rent.
Granted.
> In other words, most of the guys other than the Shotoklones (and
> Wolverine) don't have supers that you can chain together on things
> easily.
Wrong.
> Dhalsim? Zip.
S. Strong (close), (wait), Yoga Strike
> Shuma? Zip.
S. Strong XX Hyper Mystic Smash (team)
> Blackheart? Zip.
Corner enemy, S. Strong XX Armageddon
> Bison? Sorta, but not easily.
D.S. Short -> S. Roundhouse (2 hits) XX Psycho Crusher
Au contraire, this combo is VERY easy.
> Chun Li? Okay, you can chain hers together (I think).
D.S. Short -> S. Fierce XX Senretsu Kyaku (maybe even Kikou-Sho)
> On the other hand, you've got Ken, Ryu, Akuma, and Wolverine, all of
> whom can easily poke their way into a super.
If you're referring to Ken and Akuma's Shoryu Reppas, well...
... the damage on the Shoryu Reppa is pathetic (< 20% [!]). And not
only that, BH, Shuma, and Hulk recover before Ken/Akuma does, even if
they get nailed by all 10 hits of the Super. Quite frankly, since I
usually play these three anyways. It lets me get in a free, more
damaging super afterwards! :)
> You've got Cyclops, who seems weaker on the surface because his optic
> blast is slower but is actually stronger in the long run because most
> of the characters who were able to punish him after a blocked one have
> been removed and replaced with Shotoklones that can't.
I suppose.
> >I think what Dark Schneider is trying to point out is this:
>
> >You can be a complete master of Rogue and Bison, and your opponent
> >using Wolverine and Sabertooth may not even be half your skill level.
> >But your opponent does know:
>
> > 1) Wolvie's air combos & infinite and
> > 2) Sabertooth's air combo & air-throw into multiple supers and
> > 3) Very little else.
>
> >Chances are that you'll have to put twice as much effort into your
> >game just to beat him. Oh sure, he won't beat you, but he'll be sure
> >to give you a run for your money.
>
> Not really. Sabretooth is actually quite weak against Rogue, and so
> is Wolvie. They just can't get in through her defense, and most of
> what they can do makes them bait for one of her many painful counters.
> You have to get through her defenses sooner or later to even connect
> those things, and against Rogue with these guys, that just doesn't
> happen. Sabretooth can potentially get through Bison's, but Wolvie
> won't. And the painful counters department goes nearly bad from Bison
> as it does from Rogue. Oh, it'd take some effort, but as long as
> you're playing your kind of game with Rogue and Bison, those two are
> not even going to be coming close to par with you. If they are, you
> need to learn Rogue and Bison better. :)
If you say so, but I'm still not convinced. I've seen a good Bison
beat my Sabertooth, but I've yet to see a good Rogue. What makes up
"her defense" against these two, and what exactly "baits" them for her
counters?
<SNIP>
> >And like DS has said before, it's not losing to these people that's
> >the problem. It's playing these SAME Cykes/Wolvies/"GRAAA!!!"s with
> >the SAME playing styles over, and over, and over, and over, and ov...
>
> >How many people where you play actually touch Rogue, or Cammy, or
> >Juggie?
>
> >Now compare this number to the people that play Cyke, or the Weapon X
> >Bros. If this number's anything like the number at my arcade, things
> >get dull VERY quickly.
>
> Actually, we don't run into very many of those here at all. I've
> played a few of them when I've gone to other cities to play, and there
> *used* to be a fair number of them, but the skill curve at my arcade
> has actually stayed high enough that we don't see too many Cyclops,
> Wolverine, or Sabretooth players at all. The few that still are
> around then to go away with lipstick prints all over 'em. :)
No SCW of SCAR WORK? Then I envy you.
> How many Rogues, Cammys, and Jugs? We have a Jug or two, I still see
> the occasional Cammy, and we see the occasional Rogue (though I'm the
> only really competent one). That's actually about the same as the
> afore-mentioned folks. Not too many of them, usually showing up when
> people from other arcades where they haven't learned any better. Most
> common characters here are, by far, K/R/A. And actually, they're more
> effective against most of the characters I play, so this might have
> something to do with it. :)
Lots of ARK? Then I don't envy you. :)
And I think you see the point. It's just the same things over and over
ad infinitum
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '97. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
... and like Star Trek, too much Microsoft is bad for your health. ^_~
--
Edward Liu -- maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
"Hubris among the simpler races is refreshing. It often indicates
courage in impossible odds." -Precursor, Star Control III
Stilt Man
In article <66ich0$n7g$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu>,
Onaje Everett <oeve...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>Stilt Man (stil...@user1.teleport.com) wrote:
>: In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,>: >Those are the basis of around 3/4 of all the characters gameplans. Only
>: >a few are real defensive types (Cyclops springs to mind).
>: Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm are all nearly purely defensive characters in
>: XSF.
>WHOA, Stilt!!
>Storm is defensive. Cyclops and Magneto are better used offensively
>because both can do massive damage quickly by comboing into their supers
>or even air combos.
>Both have good keep-away game, but it's overrated.
Okay, teach me something I don't know. Take an opponent with a move that
can hit quickly for about half the screen's length or more along the ground.
Someone like Rogue, Bison, Cammy, Dhalsim, Juggernaut, Chun Li (LK super),
Charlie (dash into super somersault), Gambit, or . . . well, most anyone
in the game. Now say that opponent does little but keep themselves within
about half the screen's distance and then just sits there and looks at you
until you make the first move. What do you do?
I'll tell you what you do. You put some distance between you and them,
because if they're not willing to screw up so you can do some damage, you
are completely shut down at that distance. Your poke moves can be blocked
and ignored or just plain whacked. Your special moves all give them free
hits at that range. And unless they just plain don't know how to block,
the only moves you have that can do any damage at them safely without them
attacking you first are your supers.
Which means you *have* to either let them make the first move, or you have
to play keep-away, or you have to stall until you've got a super meter full
and then let loose with the super for whittle damage. There's just no way
around it. No safe short-range whittle attacks means you play some form
of defensive game or you die.
Stilt Man
In article <348CA0...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> > ?? How can massive priority have a serious limitation?
>> I am categorically unimpressed by the "massive priority" argument. Rogue
>> and Cammy go through Sabretooth and Wolvie's vaunted priorities like they
>> were tissue paper, and they both do heinous damage per hit. With Rogue,
>> you gear up the standing roundhouse for regular jumps and the crouching
>> fierce for super jumps. Clean or trade, every time, and even the trade
>> works to your favor with the kind of damage Rogue does.
> Perhaps, but you must realize that the Berserker Turds have sick speed
>to go with that priority, so catching them in their move isn't always as easy
>as you make out to be. Anyone with a quick, high-priority launcher (Rogue,
>ARK) can usually trade with their air attacks, but anyone w/o a high-priority
>launcher or a quick anti-air move is screwed. 'Slim, Bison, Z, Gambit,
>Charlie, Mags, and Jugs will get hit cleanly 9 times out of 10 if they
>try to out-prioritize the "Hairy Team".
From the air? Bison's standing roundhouse goes clean through Wolvie's
attacks if he's at the right distance, and does decently against Sabretooth
as well (again, if he's at the right distance), because his foot goes *over*
Sabretooth's. If they get above him it's a different story; depending on
where they are he might be in trouble.
Charlie has a flash kick that he can turtle behind. I care about Wolvie
because of the standing fierce on the ground, but Sabretooth? Ho hum.
Magneto can keep them away indefinitely with hyper-gravs and disruptors,
and can wait it out until he can get them away if they do manage to get
close.
Dhalsim can control these guys with his own attacks.
Zangief . . . sucks. End of story.
Juggernaut turtles. So what? He can whittle on them, they can't whittle
on him.
Gambit plays keep-away.
>'Slim doesn't have a single attack
>that can come out quick enough to beat a deep Sabretooth J. Roundhouse.
Roast 'em.
>Juggy reels from a Roundhouse, so he can't use the super armor to retaliate.
True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
>The point I'm getting at is this: Rogue, ARK, Cammy, Cyclops may be able to
>get off attacks quick enough, but the rest are forced to turtle. Which is
>BORING.
Potentially, if it's all you have for competition. It isn't, in my case,
because Rogue is one of my most common characters, and I tend to trot Cammy
out liberally when I see lots of these guys and Rogue isn't enough, so not
too many of them are left.
>> And Cammy is just
>> a thing of beauty for these guys. See, Tooth and Wolvie do you this nice
>> favor and start growling whenever they do an aerial move, so you can listen
>> for that and cannon spike their teeth back into their brain cavity. Deal
>> out three or four and these guys are in rehab trying to work their way back
>> up to solid foods again. And if your reflexes aren't that fast, that's what
>> jumping roundhouses are for.
> Yes, she can. One whiff or block, however, and you're eating a big air
>combo into infinite or air combo into air throw into Super.
Actually, even Cammy's standing roundhouse works pretty well against these
guys. No whiff risk there. And cannon spike does loads of damage.
>> And either way, it's not like these guys can do much to you if you turtle.
>> Neither one of them has an appreciable whittle move that doesn't leave their
>> pants down around their ankles for whatever you feel like doing to them in
>> return. Turtle up, watch for the counterthrow, and pick your shots and
>> both of those two are useless, priority or no priority.
> But who wants to turtle to win a match? Not I. Their priority is very
>beatable, but it makes the game boring, predictable, and generally
>un-exciting.
So what? At least you've got different characters to play against. You
have the Wolvie/Sabretooth scrubs, you've got the Shotoklone scrubs, and
you've got the Cyclops scrubs. All of which are at least providing variety.
I'll take that over an entire state full of whining no-throwing Kens and
Ryus back in SF2 days *any time*.
>> >Or a full-screen dash?
>> Nothing that Cammy doesn't have.
> Yes, but does she have a severe damage air-combo, huge priority on
>jumping attacks, and a relatively simple infinite? No.
On any one shot, no. But what she does have adds up in a big hurry, and is
much easier for her to hit with than it is for her opponents.
>> >Or an optic-blast with next to zero lag?
>> Before, yes. Afterwards, he has lag bad enough that half the characters in
>> the game can tie that visor of his in a square knot. Just to run down a list:
[slash]
>> That covers most of the characters in the game, no? Cyclops is *helpless*
>> if you stay within about half the screen's distance with most characters.
>> He can do absolutely nothing to whittle you, while most of the above can
>> whittle away at him with impunity, reducing his turtle game to shreds.
> But then the question is: How does one get anywhere near Cyclops in
>order to stay within half-distance of the screen. Answer: If they're good,
>you don't. Some characters (read:pixies) can keep up with Cyclops, but
>the ones who can't get the run-around.
The only characters that have serious problems with Cyclops (in XSF) are
Zangief and Ryu. Ken and Akuma can stay reasonably close and can hurt
him once you have a super meter full. Juggernaut can't stay very close
very easily but that doesn't matter once he's got a meter full. Rogue,
Bison, Cammy, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Chun Li, and Dhalsim, to name a few,
have no problems keeping him close enough to hit -- Wolverine, Sabretooth,
and Chun out of pure speed, Rogue and Bison out of a combination of speed
and reach, and Cammy and Dhalsim with either speed or reach depending on
what they feel like.
That's most of the field.
>> > A trained monkey can play a "reasonably effective" Kyklopes/Berserker
>> >Turd. A decent player is tough to beat with any of those three.
>> Cyclops? Don't make me laugh. People have long since gotten smart enough
>> not to play Cyclops when I'm anywhere in the building. I just plain know too
>> much about which characters can eat those optic blasts for lunch. And
>> Sabretooth . . . same thing. Be cautious, pick your characters right, and
>> pick your hits, and there's little he can do against you.
> Then you obviously don't have enough competition. An above average
>Kyklopes/Tooth combo can wreak havoc unless you really know what you're doing.
I do. :)
>I personally bring in Z/Bison/'Slim/Gambit/Chuckles and have a field day on
>the SCAR WORK/WAR CORKS, but that doesn't keep them from being priority whores
>and unbelievably boring.
Rogue, Bison, Cammy, and Dhalsim are my weapons of choice there, with Charlie
and Juggernaut not far behind. And I repeat: not everyone in that acronym
is the same. There's always going to be scrubs, and if you're just going to
complain about scrubs, then you're just plain banging your head against the
wall. At least there's a *variety* of scrubs now that you have to use
different tactics to kill. Back in SF2 when all the scrubs played Ken and
Ryu and usually whined if you tossed them, it was much more one-dimensional.
>> That's a sucker call. Cammy's cannon drill is, as you say, largely useless
>> except at the end of a combo. Ryu's fireball, on the other hand, has all
>> sorts of nice things for Rogue to do with it. The hit-area box on the thing
>> is heinous when you throw it, so a fireball at the last second makes a nearly
>> foolproof air defense if they're in front of you that will either take them
>> out clean or push them back if they air-block, making Rogue a lot harder to
>> attack.
> Yeah, but what good player is stupid enough to play an in-close game
>with Rogue? ('cept for Z)
Zangief, Wolverine, Cammy, Sabretooth, Chun Li . . . LOTS of folks.
>> Plus against anyone except Cyclops or Storm, it makes a very nice
>> long-distance whittle weapon that she doesn't otherwise have.
> True.
Very true. And very significant.
>> And against
>> Cyclops and Storm, you want to be in their face mauling them with Rogue's
>> raw power anyhow, so that's moot.
> Correct.
Of course. I know what I'm talking about. :)
>> In short, Rogue by herself is an up close and personal kind of gal. Cammy's
>> cannon drill doesn't change that, while Ryu's fireball gives her a long range
>> option that she doesn't otherwise have.
> All of her stolen fireballs (saving Chuckles) are virtually useless in
>the end, and add little to her overall game.
You, my friend, are on drugs. Please tell me you've at least once known the
joy of having an opponent stupid enough to use Charlie and Dhalsim in a team
against Rogue? It's *not* a pretty sight. :)
And Ryu's fireball has its advantages over Charlie's. Charlie's, she can
throw forever, yes . . . but Ryu's gives her that huge hit area box when
she first throws it. If they're within a third of the screen's length, they
can't even jump without her stuffing it with a fireball on the way *up*.
>Mag's hyper grav has disgusting lag time, and is therefore useless.
Yes . . . but then, with Magneto you don't want to use projectiles anyhow.
>Z's SPD is nice, but she doesn't have the range Z has on it.
Irrelevant when Rogue's got that nifty low strong punch to get in on folks
and tick with it.
>> And I know this is blasphemy to say about a "vs." character, but I'm quite
>> willing to venture to say that Rogue is easily one of the most complex and
>> changing-to-fit-her-opponent characters that the fighting game industry has
>> ever produced. The only one I can think of that comes anywhere close in
>> games I've played is Bison from about SSF2.
> Like I said earlier, she is an excellent character concept (a rarity in
>the Marvel engine), but she lacks certain basic fundamentals to make her a
>top-tier character.
Like what? She's got power. She's got speed. She's got counters for most
every attack in the game. And if you steal the right power from an opponent,
she's virtually invincible. I'd call her unquestionably top tier, and I have
this nasty habit of beating people who disagree. :)
>Super Bison was fairly poor.
Super Bison was the best all-around that Bison's ever been. There simply was
no character in the game that put him at a real disadvantage if you knew what
you were doing. I'll say as a caveat that knowing what you were doing in
SSF2 was very different than knowing what you were doing in CE/HF, though.
Play SSF2 Bison like you'd play CE Bison and you'd definitely think he was
fairly poor, because his strengths had been moved to different areas of his
game. His scissors was weaker, which is what most people poo-pooed about
him, but his ground game was better (being able to hit crouching characters
with his standing kicks really helped), his head stomp was faster (making
him a much more serious threat against projectile characters), he got a
better range of combos, he got the death-from-above move (which was useless
against most characters but *really* helped him against Guile, who was
previously his main nemesis) and his dizzying power compared to the field
took a major upgrade.
This left him with fewer characters that he utterly crushed but also left
him with zero characters who utterly crushed him. CE Bison had a few of
the former and a lot of the latter.
>CE/HF Bison was fairly vicious.
Had potentially to unavoidably serious problems with Honda, Ryu, Zangief,
and Guile in CE. They just got worse in HF. In SSF2 he can hold his own
with Honda and Guile and demolishes Ryu and Zangief.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
Stilt Man
In article <348CA89F...@sonyinteractive.com>,
Milo D. Cooper <mco...@sonyinteractive.com> wrote:
>> Stilt Man wrote:
>> I am categorically unimpressed by the "massive priority" argument. Rogue
>> and Cammy go through Sabretooth and Wolvie's vaunted priorities like they
>> were tissue paper, and they both do heinous damage per hit.
> Cammy is indeed good vs. Sabretooth, but Wolverine?? I have
>better matches against Wolverine with *Cyclops*. Unlike Sabre-
>tooth, who relies chiefly on jump-ins, Wolverine's best move is
>dash in with low short; it's extremely fast and he can't be hit
>high while doing it, and if he connects with it, he can chain it
>into 20%-100% damage. If his opponent blocks, no biggie, he
>needn't fear retaliation; the worst that can happen to him is a
>push-block. I play Cammy vs. Wolverine constantly, and I've yet
>to come up with a reliable counter-strategem. What can you do?
Do your own low short when you see him dash. Yours will come out
before his at best and will trade in your favor at worst. If your
connects, you're not doing 100%, no, but Cammy's chains aren't
completely useless.
>> And either way, it's not like these guys can do much to you if you turtle.
>> Neither one of them has an appreciable whittle move that doesn't leave their
>> pants down around their ankles for whatever you feel like doing to them in
>> return. Turtle up, watch for the counterthrow, and pick your shots and
>> both of those two are useless, priority or no priority.
> Turtling. The most effective, most boring solution -- until
>your turtling makes you predictable, as soon it must, since you
>aren't attacking, and since you limit yourself to a reactionary
>game.
Are you missing the part about "pick your shots"? You don't have to
*completely* turtle. If you break out the offense when they don't
expect it, you can hurt them rather badly before they realize what's
going on.
>>>Or a full-screen dash?
>> Nothing that Cammy doesn't have.
> But Cammy can't extend a dash-in short into an infinite combo,
>or even 20% damage.
Short-forward-roundhouse-cannon drill. They can potentially roll, but it
comes out quick enough that they usually don't, and it's harmless if they
do. If the machine version makes infinites harder, that's a real threat
compared to what Wolverine has.
> I agree, Cyke and Sabretooth, though great characters, aren't
>overly powerful. Wolverine is something else, though. He is easily
>the cheesiest, most ridiculous character in XMvSF, with the bastard
>Charlie at a close second.
Potentially annoying, but not unstoppable. There are a good number
of characters that can defend against Wolverine very effectively. And
there's nothing wrong with Charlie that a good set of lipstick prints
won't cure. :)
Stilt Man
In article <348D97...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>,
Edward Liu <maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Stilt Man wrote:
>> In article <34871F...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>,
>> Edward Liu <maha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> >I really don't mind the new delay on the Psycho Crusher, since it
>> >hurts about TWICE as much as it used to if you connect with it.
>> I wouldn't go that far. If you mash on the buttons on XSF, you can
>> get some pretty vicious damage off the thing. I haven't played Bison
>> for a while on MSF so I'm not sure of mashing makes a difference
>> there.
>XvSF: No mashing: 20% damage
> Mashing: > 25% damage
>MSF: No mashing: 30% damage
> Mashing: < 50% damage
I usually get close to 40-50% in XSF when I mash. It tends to be kind
of inconsistent, but there are times when his super actually seems to do
more damage than Rogue's does. (And I should know, because I do a lot of
both to compare with . . . :)
>> What I've noticed doesn't show me a huge disparity; the psycho crusher
>> was, when mashed, one of the meaner supers in XSF. The slowness
>> really hurts a lot of what I used to use it for: punishing people for
>> doing something stupid.
>True, he did lose that ability. At least he still has the Scissor Knee.
Yeah. But it just ain't the same.
>> Blackheart can't be played much except in turtle mode. His moves are
>> just plain too slow to use close up. He'll probably grow on me
>> eventually.
>Have you ever even tried to play Blackheart aggressively? That J.
>Forward has excellent priority against jumpers, and that J. Strong has
>awsome range. With BH, I actually have an easier time against Spidey
>and Wolvie if I play aggressively against them. If I turtle, they'll
>eventually use their speed to get through my defenses and rip me to
>shreds.
Guess I'll have to keep some of this in mind. My problem with this is
that Blackheart doesn't have any good whittle weapons that work quickly.
>> You've got Cyclops, who seems weaker on the surface because his optic
>> blast is slower but is actually stronger in the long run because most
>> of the characters who were able to punish him after a blocked one have
>> been removed and replaced with Shotoklones that can't.
>I suppose.
This is a major thing for me. In XSF, *most* of the characters were
able to punish him after a blocked optic blast. In MSF, the vast majority
of them can't.
>> Not really. Sabretooth is actually quite weak against Rogue, and so
>> is Wolvie. They just can't get in through her defense, and most of
>> what they can do makes them bait for one of her many painful counters.
>> You have to get through her defenses sooner or later to even connect
>> those things, and against Rogue with these guys, that just doesn't
>> happen. Sabretooth can potentially get through Bison's, but Wolvie
>> won't. And the painful counters department goes nearly bad from Bison
>> as it does from Rogue. Oh, it'd take some effort, but as long as
>> you're playing your kind of game with Rogue and Bison, those two are
>> not even going to be coming close to par with you. If they are, you
>> need to learn Rogue and Bison better. :)
>If you say so, but I'm still not convinced. I've seen a good Bison
>beat my Sabertooth, but I've yet to see a good Rogue. What makes up
>"her defense" against these two, and what exactly "baits" them for her
>counters?
Rogue's standing roundhouse and crouching fierce will both either go clean
through or trade with a Sabretooth or Wolvie air attack. If you time it
right, it's clean; if you don't, it trades badly in your favor. Wildly
jumping Sabretooths and Wolvies spend most of their time in the stratosphere
against Rogue.
Her rushing punches and super are both fast moving ground weapons, and there
are few decent moves from either Wolvie or Sabretooth that she can't answer
with one.
Position game. Backing Rogue into a corner doesn't do you a whole lot of
good and is actually somewhat dangerous, because she can either turn it
around or set up a super rather easily.
Then you've finally got Rogue's offense. A merciless precision attack from
Rogue is the stuff of nightmares. Lots of damage in a short amount of time
if you screw up, and if you don't she can be all over you with little or
no breaks in the continuous hell-in-spandex. And if you get caught in a
corner, either because she pushes you back or because you get turned around
into it by a super or a smooch, life is really, really bad.
In short . . . Rogue is really vicious if you know how to play her. She's
very hard to learn effectively, so you only rarely see a decent one. But
if you ever see a master Rogue, you'll know it, because she'll be on the
machine a while. :)
>No SCW of SCAR WORK? Then I envy you.
There's the occasional one. Not enough of 'em that there is any monotony
about it, though.
>Lots of ARK? Then I don't envy you. :)
Well, there's a lot fewer of 'em now than there used to be back in SF2.
I actually see about as much variety now as I've ever seen in these games.
There's the occasional SCW, there's more than the occasional ARK, but
there's actually a good 20-30% that will pop out with a Zangief, Charlie,
Cammy, Bison, or in general other stuff. Nice variety in general here.
And much more enjoyable even when I do head to another arcade and find
less of it than the days when all I had were whining, no-throw Kens,
Ryus, and Fei Longs. (grrrr...)
Dark Schneider
> From the air? Bison's standing roundhouse goes clean through Wolvie's
> attacks if he's at the right distance, and does decently against Sabretooth
> as well (again, if he's at the right distance), because his foot goes *over*
> Sabretooth's. If they get above him it's a different story; depending on
> where they are he might be in trouble.
It's all about placement. The smart ones know where to jump, and if you move, they won't attack.
> Charlie has a flash kick that he can turtle behind. I care about Wolvie
> because of the standing fierce on the ground, but Sabretooth? Ho hum.
Turtle = boring. Charlie's a better aggressor than turtle in XSF, anyway.
> Magneto can keep them away indefinitely with hyper-gravs and disruptors,
> and can wait it out until he can get them away if they do manage to get
> close.
A Disruptor has no affect on either of those two if they're s.j.ing around just waiting to place a j.
roundhouse into air combo into super.
> Dhalsim can control these guys with his own attacks.
If they're a full screen away. One super jump... problem solved.
> Zangief . . . sucks. End of story.
Then you just haven't met a good one yet. You lost my respect with that statement alone.
> Juggernaut turtles. So what? He can whittle on them, they can't whittle
> on him.
Turtle = boring.
> Gambit plays keep-away.
Very true.
> >'Slim doesn't have a single attack
> >that can come out quick enough to beat a deep Sabretooth J. Roundhouse.
>
> Roast 'em.
An Inferno perhaps, but not a Yoga Flame/Blast. Not quick enough. That assumes you have your super
past level 1.
> True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
Same thing to every other boring turtle. Throw.
> Potentially, if it's all you have for competition. It isn't, in my case,
> because Rogue is one of my most common characters, and I tend to trot Cammy
> out liberally when I see lots of these guys and Rogue isn't enough, so not
> too many of them are left.
I enjoy a good Rogue as well, and there was a time when I used Cammy almost exclusively (until I
realized I was becoming one-dimensional with her). Like I've said a million times in the past, though. (People
don't listen) It's not whether or not I'm beating these people... it's the fact that they bore me to tears,
and that scrubs shouldn't have any chance, much less the slim chance have when using these characters.
> Actually, even Cammy's standing roundhouse works pretty well against these
> guys. No whiff risk there. And cannon spike does loads of damage.
Cammy's standing RH (I assume you mean the non-launcher) will be out-prioritized by Wolvie J. Fierce
or a "GRAA!"'s J. Roundhouse 9 times out of 10. Period. If you mean the launcher... all launchers will at
least trade. What's the point? You gotta get it out there first.
> So what? At least you've got different characters to play against. You
> have the Wolvie/Sabretooth scrubs, you've got the Shotoklone scrubs, and
> you've got the Cyclops scrubs. All of which are at least providing variety.
> I'll take that over an entire state full of whining no-throwing Kens and
> Ryus back in SF2 days *any time*.
Was that what we were talking about?! Variety in boredom?! NO. We were talking about whether or not
Wolverine and Sabretooth were priority whores that ruined XSF. You thought XSF was a good game, I thought it
was poor and gave you my reasoning.
> > Yes, but does she have a severe damage air-combo, huge priority on
> >jumping attacks, and a relatively simple infinite? No.
>
> On any one shot, no. But what she does have adds up in a big hurry, and is
> much easier for her to hit with than it is for her opponents.
The point: Character balance. Cammy + Rogue are balanced characters. W/S are not. Cammy has no
long-distance game, a mediocre double super, and a very vulnerable set of specials and supers. However, she
has quickness, big-time combo-ability, and has excellent fallback on the cannon spike. Rogue has weak specials
(save for the kiss), a weak double super, and only 1 super (which isn't bad in itself, but limits her game
variety-wise). However, she has relatively good priority, quickness, an air-dash, and upper-level strength.
That's balance. W/S don't have that balance.
> The only characters that have serious problems with Cyclops (in XSF) are
> Zangief and Ryu. Ken and Akuma can stay reasonably close and can hurt
> him once you have a super meter full. Juggernaut can't stay very close
> very easily but that doesn't matter once he's got a meter full. Rogue,
> Bison, Cammy, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Chun Li, and Dhalsim, to name a few,
> have no problems keeping him close enough to hit -- Wolverine, Sabretooth,
> and Chun out of pure speed, Rogue and Bison out of a combination of speed
> and reach, and Cammy and Dhalsim with either speed or reach depending on
> what they feel like.
Sorry, one ARK is no different from another when it comes to speed. (save that Akuma's dash is better
than the other two's). If Ken doesn't have any trouble, Ryu won't. If Ken does, Ryu does. 'Slim can't keep up
with a good 'Klops. Anyone with a full screen dash can... but that's.... lessee... Cammy, Chun (pretty much),
Wolvie, Akuma. A good (emphasis on GOOD) Cyclops can play keep away with anyone, regardless of who you're
using. That's what makes him such a pain in the ass. Plus nil lag on the Optic Blast,
<snips pat on the back>
> >> That's a sucker call. Cammy's cannon drill is, as you say, largely useless
> >> except at the end of a combo. Ryu's fireball, on the other hand, has all
> >> sorts of nice things for Rogue to do with it. The hit-area box on the thing
> >> is heinous when you throw it, so a fireball at the last second makes a nearly
> >> foolproof air defense if they're in front of you that will either take them
> >> out clean or push them back if they air-block, making Rogue a lot harder to
> >> attack.
>
> > Yeah, but what good player is stupid enough to play an in-close game
> >with Rogue? ('cept for Z)
>
> Zangief, Wolverine, Cammy, Sabretooth, Chun Li . . . LOTS of folks.
Wolvie and Tooth can cause they've got better in-close games (Regardless of how good YOU are with
Rogue).
> Of course. I know what I'm talking about. :)
All that and humble too.
> You, my friend, are on drugs. Please tell me you've at least once known the
> joy of having an opponent stupid enough to use Charlie and Dhalsim in a team
> against Rogue? It's *not* a pretty sight. :)
I'm on drugs? If you assume you're going to have a field day, just because someone else chooses
Chuckles/'Slim, solely based on the fact that you know how to steal from them and use their weapons
effectively, not even taking their ability into account, then you, sir, are on drugs.
> And Ryu's fireball has its advantages over Charlie's. Charlie's, she can
> throw forever, yes . . . but Ryu's gives her that huge hit area box when
> she first throws it. If they're within a third of the screen's length, they
> can't even jump without her stuffing it with a fireball on the way *up*.
True, but in an upper level battle, a good (emphasis on good) Ryu isn't gonna have any trouble getting
away from his own fireball. Lord knows he has to do it all the time.
> Yes . . . but then, with Magneto you don't want to use projectiles anyhow.
If you're using Rogue, no.
> Irrelevant when Rogue's got that nifty low strong punch to get in on folks
> and tick with it.
Assuming you can get in.
> Like what? She's got power. She's got speed. She's got counters for most
> every attack in the game. And if you steal the right power from an opponent,
> she's virtually invincible. I'd call her unquestionably top tier, and I have
> this nasty habit of beating people who disagree. :)
There is no counter for a good Z. ('cept for keep away, and Rogue can't do that for shit) And there is
no stolen power that makes her "virtually invincible". A lot of them have excellent uses, but invincibility is
entirely too strong a word. I believe you, my friend, need better competition if you think Rogue is almighty.
Rogue's in the top 5 or 6, but she's not top tier.
<snips Bison thread>
I believe Ultima already answered this one for me. Have a nice day. Ease off on the pride, man. It weakens
your credibility.
Stilt Man
In article <348DB1...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> From the air? Bison's standing roundhouse goes clean through Wolvie's
>> attacks if he's at the right distance, and does decently against Sabretooth
>> as well (again, if he's at the right distance), because his foot goes *over*
>> Sabretooth's. If they get above him it's a different story; depending on
>> where they are he might be in trouble.
> It's all about placement. The smart ones know where to jump, and if
>you move, they won't attack.
True. That makes it a bit tricky. On the other hand, it also makes them
ripe to get tossed when they hit the ground, too.
>> Charlie has a flash kick that he can turtle behind. I care about Wolvie
>> because of the standing fierce on the ground, but Sabretooth? Ho hum.
> Turtle = boring. Charlie's a better aggressor than turtle in XSF,
>anyway.
I'm using "turtle" as a figure of speech. Charlie can charge a flash kick
and then forget about Sabretooth's air priority. Wolverine, he can't ignore
anyway, because when Wolvie hits the ground he can do the standing fierce and
hit Charlie as he lands; Sabretooth can't do that.
>> Magneto can keep them away indefinitely with hyper-gravs and disruptors,
>> and can wait it out until he can get them away if they do manage to get
>> close.
> A Disruptor has no affect on either of those two if they're s.j.ing
>around just waiting to place a j. roundhouse into air combo into super.
Fire a hyper-grav at them in the air, then. That either hits them or
bounces them away a fair amount of the time.
>> Dhalsim can control these guys with his own attacks.
> If they're a full screen away. One super jump... problem solved.
One standing forward/yoga flame blocked combo, problem reinstated.
>> Zangief . . . sucks. End of story.
> Then you just haven't met a good one yet. You lost my respect with
>that statement alone.
Zangief, in XSF, has some serious problems with a lot of characters if they
play keepaway. He just plain has a lot of trouble staying close to people.
If he gets close, sure, he gives people a rough time. But that lack of
speed makes him overall one of the weaker characters in this game. Against
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Charlie . . . bad news.
>> Juggernaut turtles. So what? He can whittle on them, they can't whittle
>> on him.
> Turtle = boring.
Irrelevant. Juggernaut wins, which means they have to think of something
else. If they can't do that . . . oh well.
>> >'Slim doesn't have a single attack
>> >that can come out quick enough to beat a deep Sabretooth J. Roundhouse.
>> Roast 'em.
> An Inferno perhaps, but not a Yoga Flame/Blast. Not quick enough.
>That assumes you have your super past level 1.
Yes, it does. But it's not hopeless.
>> True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
> Same thing to every other boring turtle. Throw.
And if Juggernaut knows how to throw, too?
>> Potentially, if it's all you have for competition. It isn't, in my case,
>> because Rogue is one of my most common characters, and I tend to trot Cammy
>> out liberally when I see lots of these guys and Rogue isn't enough, so not
>> too many of them are left.
> I enjoy a good Rogue as well, and there was a time when I used Cammy
>almost exclusively (until I realized I was becoming one-dimensional with her).
>Like I've said a million times in the past, though. (People don't listen) It's
>not whether or not I'm beating these people... it's the fact that they bore
>me to tears, and that scrubs shouldn't have any chance, much less the slim
>chance have when using these characters.
Well . . . I don't care whether they've got a slim chance. I would call this
good, actually, because it gives new players a reason to play in an arcade
where there's a lot of good ones.
>> Actually, even Cammy's standing roundhouse works pretty well against these
>> guys. No whiff risk there. And cannon spike does loads of damage.
> Cammy's standing RH (I assume you mean the non-launcher) will be
>out-prioritized by Wolvie J. Fierce or a "GRAA!"'s J. Roundhouse 9 times
>out of 10. Period.
True. I was referring to if they're doing quick moves rather than the
fierce or roundhouse. Those things are easy to cannon spike on reflex.
>If you mean the launcher... all launchers will at
>least trade. What's the point? You gotta get it out there first.
True.
>> So what? At least you've got different characters to play against. You
>> have the Wolvie/Sabretooth scrubs, you've got the Shotoklone scrubs, and
>> you've got the Cyclops scrubs. All of which are at least providing variety.
>> I'll take that over an entire state full of whining no-throwing Kens and
>> Ryus back in SF2 days *any time*.
> Was that what we were talking about?! Variety in boredom?! NO. We
>were talking about whether or not Wolverine and Sabretooth were priority
>whores that ruined XSF. You thought XSF was a good game, I thought it
>was poor and gave you my reasoning.
Well, I disagree, and I've given you mine. If you don't like getting bored
by scrubs, you're playing in the wrong arcade. Go find one where they know
what they're doing. :)
>> > Yes, but does she have a severe damage air-combo, huge priority on
>> >jumping attacks, and a relatively simple infinite? No.
>> On any one shot, no. But what she does have adds up in a big hurry, and is
>> much easier for her to hit with than it is for her opponents.
> The point: Character balance. Cammy + Rogue are balanced characters.
>W/S are not. Cammy has no long-distance game, a mediocre double super, and
>a very vulnerable set of specials and supers. However, she has quickness,
>big-time combo-ability, and has excellent fallback on the cannon spike.
Yup.
>Rogue has weak specials (save for the kiss),
Rushing punches are also very nice when they hit. If you can play with the
kind of precision to switch between the rushing punches and the kiss depending
on whether or not you're hitting your opponent, they're actually quite useful.
Air rushing punches of various persuasion, I agree. I pretty much never use
them.
>a weak double super, and only 1 super (which isn't bad in itself, but limits
>her game variety-wise).
Most characters only have one particularly useful super. Magneto, Ken,
Ryu, Wolverine, and Cyclops are the only ones I can easily think of who
have more than one super that's useful enough to be worth using both of
them frequently.
>However, she has relatively good priority, quickness, an air-dash, and upper-
>level strength. That's balance. W/S don't have that balance.
Wolverine and Sabretooth share a critical weakness: they die against
turtlers that know how to counter-throw.
>> The only characters that have serious problems with Cyclops (in XSF) are
>> Zangief and Ryu. Ken and Akuma can stay reasonably close and can hurt
>> him once you have a super meter full. Juggernaut can't stay very close
>> very easily but that doesn't matter once he's got a meter full. Rogue,
>> Bison, Cammy, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Chun Li, and Dhalsim, to name a few,
>> have no problems keeping him close enough to hit -- Wolverine, Sabretooth,
>> and Chun out of pure speed, Rogue and Bison out of a combination of speed
>> and reach, and Cammy and Dhalsim with either speed or reach depending on
>> what they feel like.
> Sorry, one ARK is no different from another when it comes to speed.
>(save that Akuma's dash is better than the other two's). If Ken doesn't
>have any trouble, Ryu won't. If Ken does, Ryu does.
My problem with Ryu as opposed to Ken or Akuma is that Ryu doesn't have the
Shoryureppa to punish a blocked optic blast at medium range, leaving Cyclops
a lot more freedom to fire off optic blasts at will. If it weren't for those,
I'd put Ken and Akuma together with Ryu in this boat.
>'Slim can't keep up with a good 'Klops.
Are you kidding? With his dash and reach? He's one of the *easiest* to
keep up with him.
>Anyone with a full screen dash can... but that's.... lessee... Cammy, Chun
>(pretty much), Wolvie, Akuma. A good (emphasis on GOOD) Cyclops can play
>keep away with anyone, regardless of who you're using.
Well, they can play it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it.
They can make it hard to get in, they can make it hard to stay in . . . but
keep you at much more than half the screen's length indefinitely? No.
Bison doesn't need a full screen dash, he only needs scissors range. It's
not that hard for him to keep it. Rogue also doesn't need a full screen dash,
she only needs rushing punch range. It's not that hard for her to keep it,
either. Dhalsim only needs limbs range. It's ridiculously easy for him to
keep it. Juggernaut only needs a full meter, and after that, range is
irrelevant. Magneto's jab disruptor doesn't even need the meter, making
range irrelevant in general. Ken and Akuma need a full meter *and* close
range, and it's not too hard to get either one.
Initiating an attack with any of the above? Not necessarily easy if the
Cyke is good. I'm not saying that. And if he plays an effective enough
turtle and keep-away game that he can whittle away better than you can,
then he can be a potential annoyance. But it ain't easy for them, and
a good attacker with any of the above can make it happen often enough that
I wouldn't call Cyclops an overpowering character based on keep-away.
>> > Yeah, but what good player is stupid enough to play an in-close game
>> >with Rogue? ('cept for Z)
>> Zangief, Wolverine, Cammy, Sabretooth, Chun Li . . . LOTS of folks.
> Wolvie and Tooth can cause they've got better in-close games
>(Regardless of how good YOU are with Rogue).
I agree, they do. Like I said earlier when I was characterizing the variety
of strategies Rogue follows: against Wolvie and Tooth, you don't mind being
on the offense, but you'd sure as hell better have a defense plan in mind.
>> You, my friend, are on drugs. Please tell me you've at least once known the
>> joy of having an opponent stupid enough to use Charlie and Dhalsim in a team
>> against Rogue? It's *not* a pretty sight. :)
> I'm on drugs? If you assume you're going to have a field day, just
>because someone else chooses Chuckles/'Slim, solely based on the fact that
>you know how to steal from them and use their weapons effectively, not
>even taking their ability into account, then you, sir, are on drugs.
Oh, I'm not saying that a good Charlie and Dhalsim are going to just wilt
whenever a Rogue comes along. I'm just saying that Rogue gets a hell of
a lot meaner than they are in the hands of equally good players when she's
got a stolen sonic boom or yoga flame. You can't just mindlessly attack or
assume that you're going to win -- get cocky and you're going to die against
a good player no matter what the matchup is (and I'll freely admit that I've
frittered away Rogue/Charlie matchups before because I got cocky once I had
the sonic boom and sailed into too many super flash kicks). But there's not
much way around it: a good Rogue with a sonic boom or a yoga flame is
nightmarish stuff, because her version is much, much better than theirs in
both cases, and together with the rest of her moves those things make her
very hard to beat unless she screws up.
>> And Ryu's fireball has its advantages over Charlie's. Charlie's, she can
>> throw forever, yes . . . but Ryu's gives her that huge hit area box when
>> she first throws it. If they're within a third of the screen's length, they
>> can't even jump without her stuffing it with a fireball on the way *up*.
> True, but in an upper level battle, a good (emphasis on good) Ryu isn't
>gonna have any trouble getting away from his own fireball. Lord knows he has
>to do it all the time.
Getting away from his own fireball from another Ryu is a very different
thing than getting away from his own fireball from Rogue. Rogue's fireball,
when first thrown, has a hit area the size of Juggernaut. Really. If
you're within about a body length of her and you're anywhere on the screen
in front of her when she first throws it, it connects. That's a whole
different world from Ryu's fireball thrown by another Ryu, and it makes
for a different Rogue than Charlie's sonic boom does. I'm not going to
say Ryu's fireball is better for her than the 'boom -- the quick recovery
time and rapid throwing of multiple 'booms fixes that equation -- but it's
one of the more useful ones Rogue can grab.
>> Yes . . . but then, with Magneto you don't want to use projectiles anyhow.
> If you're using Rogue, no.
Definitely agreed.
>> Irrelevant when Rogue's got that nifty low strong punch to get in on folks
>> and tick with it.
> Assuming you can get in.
On Zangief, you're getting in. On someone else . . . well, it's quite
true that you might want to steal something else if they're a good defensive
character. I'm just commenting on the reach of Rogue's SPD compared to Gief's.
Gief has a longer raw grab reach but can't always set it up as easily due to
his mobility. Rogue has much more mobility to make up for the shorter grab
reach.
>> Like what? She's got power. She's got speed. She's got counters for most
>> every attack in the game. And if you steal the right power from an opponent,
>> she's virtually invincible. I'd call her unquestionably top tier, and I have
>> this nasty habit of beating people who disagree. :)
> There is no counter for a good Z. ('cept for keep away, and Rogue can't
>do that for shit)
Against Zangief, she certainly can. She's faster than he is, her moves are
safer than his, she can go right underneath the lariat with the crouching
strong and combo it into whatever she feels like, stolen SPD ticks out of that
are going to be a factor, the kiss provides whittle damage that he can't return
easily, her air defense is going to completely shut down any notions of jumping
in for ticks, and most of his normal moves on the ground with any reach are
asking for trouble if she blocks. If Gief is partnered with a character that
has a decent projectile that Rogue can steal, it just gets worse.
Against Zangief with Rogue, if all else fails, I see a basic and simple keep
away strategy. I super jump all over the place and fill up the meter with
strong punches I'm tossing while I'm in the stratosphere. For annoyance
value maybe I'll kiss-tick you once in a while, but mostly I'm just going
for cheesy meter-filling stuff and killing the clock while maintaining a
comfortable lead against you with the kiss-tick whittling. Once I've got
a meter or two full, I back into the corner and quite cheerfully wait for
you to try something against your better judgment. If I'm ahead (and if I
kiss-tick carefully, I probably will be), you have one of two choices:
switch characters for a more effective attack and pray that the damage from
Rogue's super doesn't fatally wound your chances of catching up before I
run out the clock, or you try to attack, which eight times of ten is going
to get you smooched into the corner for an easy super, at which point I
resume the process.
What does Zangief do? I'm honestly curious here. I'm not sure I see what's
so fearsome about him against Rogue. I usually don't turtle with Rogue
near this badly, but against someone as vulnerable to turtles as Gief, I
can't think of too many characters who couldn't play keep away with him
in some form.
>And there is
>no stolen power that makes her "virtually invincible". A lot of them have
>excellent uses, but invincibility is entirely too strong a word.
If she's got a sonic boom or a yoga flame, she's not completely indestructible,
but she's damned hard to beat. Normally, the best way to fight Rogue with
most characters is to keep her away from you, because a short-range fight
is most painful for most of them. With the sonic boom or yoga flame, that
option goes straight out the window, because she'll win distance wars when
she's got 'em against most anyone.
>I believe
>you, my friend, need better competition if you think Rogue is almighty.
>Rogue's in the top 5 or 6, but she's not top tier.
I'm not the only one who's rated her top tier on the Internet. I seem to
recall Valle posting a similar rating for her (which even I doubted at the
time before I'd gotten better with her). I respectfully disagree with
your assessment of her.
><snips Bison thread>
>I believe Ultima already answered this one for me. Have a nice day. Ease off
>on the pride, man. It weakens your credibility.
Sorry. Sometimes I get a little annoying when I'm posting stuff here. It's
just an act. If you met me in person you wouldn't recognize me by the
bluster I put up here. I'm a completely different person on this newsgroup
than I am normally (even on most other newsgroups :). Not sure why. Maybe
it's the upbringing I had having to deal with the UIUC flamers when I first
showed up here. :)
Dark Schneider
> True. That makes it a bit tricky. On the other hand, it also makes them
> ripe to get tossed when they hit the ground, too.
True, but the good ones know how to avoid that too.
> > Turtle = boring. Charlie's a better aggressor than turtle in XSF,
> >anyway.
>
> I'm using "turtle" as a figure of speech. Charlie can charge a flash kick
> and then forget about Sabretooth's air priority. Wolverine, he can't ignore
> anyway, because when Wolvie hits the ground he can do the standing fierce and
> hit Charlie as he lands; Sabretooth can't do that.
Not if you do a short somersault, no. I love Chuckles for just that reason. However, the only reason
why I even mention Sabretooth is because there was this one guy who occasionally showed up at the arcade I
used to work at. He was probably the only guy who came there that could beat me with any regularity. (We
usually ended up splitting 50/50) He worked my Z, so I had to bring out Chuckles/Gambit/Rogue/Bison. All he
used was Charlie/Sabretooth, baited you into the air-combo into throw into super with Tooth. His Charlie was
very average (not offensive enough), but that one combo with Tooth, unless you teched the throw, was pretty
much a 100% combo if you had the meter. This was on a later XSF machine sans most infinites. It pissed me off
that a guy who couldn't play for shit otherwise, but who knew one combo, could dominate. It bruised my ego. :)
I think that's the main reason why I say ... <banners fall behind, flags rise, steps up to a podium>
"The VS. series is not a test of skill" That's the last time I'll ever say that. Cross my heart, hope
to die, stick shit in my eye, etc. :)
> Fire a hyper-grav at them in the air, then. That either hits them or
> bounces them away a fair amount of the time.
I agree, but a disruptor is useless.
> > If they're a full screen away. One super jump... problem solved.
>
> One standing forward/yoga flame blocked combo, problem reinstated.
Once again, a matter of placement. If they're smart, they don't fall for that. (much like my
previously mentioned friend)
> Zangief, in XSF, has some serious problems with a lot of characters if they
> play keepaway. He just plain has a lot of trouble staying close to people.
> If he gets close, sure, he gives people a rough time. But that lack of
> speed makes him overall one of the weaker characters in this game. Against
> Wolverine, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Charlie . . . bad news.
Agreed, but an above average Z is a scrub crusher. Pure and simple. Point: Z does not suck, he's just
bottom or middle-tier, depending on your opinion. BTW, a ToD a day keeps the scrubs away. :)
> > Turtle = boring.
>
> Irrelevant. Juggernaut wins, which means they have to think of something
> else. If they can't do that . . . oh well.
Relevant. It's the whole basis of my point. I don't want to play a boring game. Do you? You may think
it's not boring, which is fine. But I do.
> >> True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
>
> > Same thing to every other boring turtle. Throw.
>
> And if Juggernaut knows how to throw, too?
Irrelevant. He's turtling. Which is a purely defensive posture. Attacking only out of necessity.
Avoiding a throw is a necessity, but not one you'll necessarily notice if the person catches on to your
turtle tactics.
> > Cammy's standing RH (I assume you mean the non-launcher) will be
> >out-prioritized by Wolvie J. Fierce or a "GRAA!"'s J. Roundhouse 9 times
> >out of 10. Period.
>
> True. I was referring to if they're doing quick moves rather than the
> fierce or roundhouse. Those things are easy to cannon spike on reflex.
That's one hell of a reflex. Tooth's RH comes out awful damn quick.
> Well, I disagree, and I've given you mine. If you don't like getting bored
> by scrubs, you're playing in the wrong arcade. Go find one where they know
> what they're doing. :)
No matter what arcade you go to, you're gonna find scrubs. I don't care where you live. They're there.
And you've gotta play 'em. Over, and over, and over, and over again. It wears thin on my fragile nerves. :)
> Rushing punches are also very nice when they hit. If you can play with the
> kind of precision to switch between the rushing punches and the kiss depending
> on whether or not you're hitting your opponent, they're actually quite useful.
The Rushing Punches are useless outside of a combo. Too easy to spot.
> Most characters only have one particularly useful super. Magneto, Ken,
> Ryu, Wolverine, and Cyclops are the only ones I can easily think of who
> have more than one super that's useful enough to be worth using both of
> them frequently.
That's 5 right there. Plus Akuma (SGS + Messatsu Go Shoryu) and Charlie (Sonic Blade, infinite uses,
Somersault Justice, sick priority) makes 7. That's nearly half the game. Z, Jugs, Rogue, and Gambit all have 1
super.
> Wolverine and Sabretooth share a critical weakness: they die against
> turtlers that know how to counter-throw.
So does everyone else. That's a common flaw of the Marvel engine. Sabretooth's weaknesses are pitiful
specials and supers (Not like he needs 'em... the supers are tres powerful, though). Wolvie really doesn't
have a weakness.
> My problem with Ryu as opposed to Ken or Akuma is that Ryu doesn't have the
> Shoryureppa to punish a blocked optic blast at medium range, leaving Cyclops
> a lot more freedom to fire off optic blasts at will. If it weren't for those,
> I'd put Ken and Akuma together with Ryu in this boat.
Yeah, but Shoryureppa is a waste of a super. Nil damage, and 'Klops lands before they do, eat a super.
(Wait, hold up... I'm not sure about that last statement... I'll have to double check on that)
> Are you kidding? With his dash and reach? He's one of the *easiest* to
> keep up with him.
Dash good. Reach useless. 'Klops' moves too fast. And double jump can easily avoid most attempted limb
attacks.
> Well, they can play it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it.
> They can make it hard to get in, they can make it hard to stay in . . . but
> keep you at much more than half the screen's length indefinitely? No.
It's the fact that he can play that BS game relatively effectively (along with small lag OB) that
makes him unbalanced and only helps XSF in to "BS" status.
> Bison doesn't need a full screen dash, he only needs scissors range. It's
> not that hard for him to keep it. Rogue also doesn't need a full screen dash,
> she only needs rushing punch range. It's not that hard for her to keep it,
> either. Dhalsim only needs limbs range. It's ridiculously easy for him to
> keep it. Juggernaut only needs a full meter, and after that, range is
> irrelevant. Magneto's jab disruptor doesn't even need the meter, making
> range irrelevant in general. Ken and Akuma need a full meter *and* close
> range, and it's not too hard to get either one.
However, in any of these cases, if Cyclops blocks any of these attacks... "BEHOLD!" :) You get an
eyeful. Just boring guessing games, yes. However, they're effective. That's the definition of a FLAW.
> > True, but in an upper level battle, a good (emphasis on good) Ryu isn't
> >gonna have any trouble getting away from his own fireball. Lord knows he has
> >to do it all the time.
>
> Getting away from his own fireball from another Ryu is a very different
> thing than getting away from his own fireball from Rogue. Rogue's fireball,
> when first thrown, has a hit area the size of Juggernaut. Really. If
> you're within about a body length of her and you're anywhere on the screen
> in front of her when she first throws it, it connects. That's a whole
> different world from Ryu's fireball thrown by another Ryu, and it makes
> for a different Rogue than Charlie's sonic boom does. I'm not going to
> say Ryu's fireball is better for her than the 'boom -- the quick recovery
> time and rapid throwing of multiple 'booms fixes that equation -- but it's
> one of the more useful ones Rogue can grab.
The initial hit box is nice and all, but not nearly enough reason for Rogue to waste her time on it.
She should be trying to kiss or initiate a combo.
> Against Zangief, she certainly can. She's faster than he is, her moves are
> safer than his, she can go right underneath the lariat with the crouching
> strong and combo it into whatever she feels like, stolen SPD ticks out of that
> are going to be a factor, the kiss provides whittle damage that he can't return
> easily, her air defense is going to completely shut down any notions of jumping
> in for ticks, and most of his normal moves on the ground with any reach are
> asking for trouble if she blocks. If Gief is partnered with a character that
> has a decent projectile that Rogue can steal, it just gets worse.
But how many Z's combo with projectile people. :) (Charlie's the only one I use) The kiss is too slow,
even for Z. He sticks out a short, into kick lariat. The possibilities from there are nearly endless. Rogue's
other moves are worthless against Z. SPD ticks will get her a long way, but a good Z will stuff most other
attempts at offense. Z has the BEST (next to the Berserker boys) inside game.
> Against Zangief with Rogue, if all else fails, I see a basic and simple keep
> away strategy. I super jump all over the place and fill up the meter with
> strong punches I'm tossing while I'm in the stratosphere. For annoyance
> value maybe I'll kiss-tick you once in a while, but mostly I'm just going
> for cheesy meter-filling stuff and killing the clock while maintaining a
> comfortable lead against you with the kiss-tick whittling. Once I've got
> a meter or two full, I back into the corner and quite cheerfully wait for
> you to try something against your better judgment. If I'm ahead (and if I
> kiss-tick carefully, I probably will be), you have one of two choices:
> switch characters for a more effective attack and pray that the damage from
> Rogue's super doesn't fatally wound your chances of catching up before I
> run out the clock, or you try to attack, which eight times of ten is going
> to get you smooched into the corner for an easy super, at which point I
> resume the process.
<snooze> And this, my friend, is the exact reason why vs. bores me to tears. Boring garbage tactics.
You can say "If it works, it works" if you like, but that doesn't take away from the fact the vs. engine is
flawed as sin. Lack of Character Balance + Keep-Away Games + SCAR WORK + Infinites + Priority Problems +
Recycled Animation = Bad. Add scrubs into the pot and you get a successful, but unstrategic flail-fest. I play
the games with my friends nearly everyday, and I enjoy it. It's still flawed fluff.
> What does Zangief do? I'm honestly curious here. I'm not sure I see what's
> so fearsome about him against Rogue. I usually don't turtle with Rogue
> near this badly, but against someone as vulnerable to turtles as Gief, I
> can't think of too many characters who couldn't play keep away with him
> in some form.
Same reasoning as Kyklopes' keep away stuff. A good Kyklopes can play an excellent keep-away, and a
good Z can wipe out turtles. <whisper> ToD.
> If she's got a sonic boom or a yoga flame, she's not completely indestructible,
> but she's damned hard to beat. Normally, the best way to fight Rogue with
> most characters is to keep her away from you, because a short-range fight
> is most painful for most of them. With the sonic boom or yoga flame, that
> option goes straight out the window, because she'll win distance wars when
> she's got 'em against most anyone.
Well, Rogue with a Boom is tough to beat, but certainly nowhere near unbeatable. The Flame is about a
milli-second faster that 'Slim's. No more useful.
> I'm not the only one who's rated her top tier on the Internet. I seem to
> recall Valle posting a similar rating for her (which even I doubted at the
> time before I'd gotten better with her). I respectfully disagree with
> your assessment of her.
Hmmm... don't remember back that far. Like I said, she's Top 5 for me, but certainly doesn't reach
'Clops, Wolvie, Ryu (I hate him, but he's powerful), or Chuckles. Ah... a gentleman. So rare. Thank you for
your grammar, spelling, punctuation, and ettiquette. Brings a tear to my eye. :)
> Sorry. Sometimes I get a little annoying when I'm posting stuff here. It's
> just an act. If you met me in person you wouldn't recognize me by the
> bluster I put up here. I'm a completely different person on this newsgroup
> than I am normally (even on most other newsgroups :). Not sure why. Maybe
> it's the upbringing I had having to deal with the UIUC flamers when I first
> showed up here. :)
Most certainly forgiven. It's rare to find an intellectual discussion on the net. Most threads consist
of "I'm better than you", spam, surveys, and flames. However, it is a good intellectual discussion that
challenges beliefs and alters opinions that one treasures the most.
Onaje Everett
Stilt Man (stil...@user1.teleport.com) wrote:
: In article <66ich0$n7g$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu>,: >: In article <hquanah-ya0240800...@news.okstate.edu>,: >: >Those are the basis of around 3/4 of all the characters gameplans. Only
: >: >a few are real defensive types (Cyclops springs to mind).
: >: Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm are all nearly purely defensive characters in
: >: XSF.
: >WHOA, Stilt!!
: >Storm is defensive. Cyclops and Magneto are better used offensively
: >because both can do massive damage quickly by comboing into their supers
: >or even air combos.
: >Both have good keep-away game, but it's overrated.
: Okay, teach me something I don't know. Take an opponent with a move that
: can hit quickly for about half the screen's length or more along the ground.
: Someone like Rogue, Bison, Cammy, Dhalsim, Juggernaut, Chun Li (LK super),
: Charlie (dash into super somersault), Gambit, or . . . well, most anyone
: in the game. Now say that opponent does little but keep themselves within
: about half the screen's distance and then just sits there and looks at you
: until you make the first move. What do you do?
You hit them first and combo them for big damage...which is what *I* do.
Trust me...it works.
Okay...maybe the best defense is a good offense in this case.
: I'll tell you what you do. You put some distance between you and them,
: because if they're not willing to screw up so you can do some damage, you
: are completely shut down at that distance. Your poke moves can be blocked
: and ignored or just plain whacked. Your special moves all give them free
: hits at that range. And unless they just plain don't know how to block,
: the only moves you have that can do any damage at them safely without them
: attacking you first are your supers.
You don't have to end every combo with an Optic Blast. The Cyclops Kick
can be safe at certain ranges, too. Plus, there's also double standing
roundhouse. Against characters that have really fast supers, you simply
adjust. Still, Cyke does have safe combos.
: Which means you *have* to either let them make the first move, or you have
: to play keep-away, or you have to stall until you've got a super meter full
: and then let loose with the super for whittle damage. There's just no way
: around it. No safe short-range whittle attacks means you play some form
: of defensive game or you die.
I'm not arguing that Cyke can't play defense....but it's usually not the
best way to win with him. Besides, in XSF, that Mega Optic Blast was so
comboable that it was scary. In MSF...that's a different story.
Onaje Everett
Stilt Man (stil...@user1.teleport.com) wrote:
: In article <348DB1...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
: Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
: >> Dhalsim can control these guys with his own attacks.
: > If they're a full screen away. One super jump... problem solved.
: One standing forward/yoga flame blocked combo, problem reinstated.
You're totally forgetting about Wolvie's Weapon X, which WILL connect
after blocking a Yoga Flame....unless he decides to jump it and combo
into a Berserker Barrage X. I've done a lot of both against the CPU.
If a human player attempts this pattern on me, they learn quickly not to
do it again.
: >> Juggernaut turtles. So what? He can whittle on them, they can't whittle
: >> on him.
: > Turtle = boring.
: Irrelevant. Juggernaut wins, which means they have to think of something
: else. If they can't do that . . . oh well.
Wolverine: Dashing jab-short...throw. Nearly impossible to see coming
unless one anticipates it. Jumping fierce-roundhouse...throw. Loads of
variations here.
Sabretooth: Jumping fierce-roundhouse...throw. Jumping fierce,
crouching short...throw. Jumping fierce-roundhouse, crouching
short...throw. Jump...throw. There is just too much that Sabre can fake
with here...and if Juggy stick something out, he'll either trade if he
guesses right, or he'll leave himself open for anything faster than a
Berserker Weapon X...like a dashing crouching short-standing roundhouse,
Berserker Claw X for starters....or that air combo into throw into super
combo that Sabretooth is so fond of.
: >> >'Slim doesn't have a single attack
: >> >that can come out quick enough to beat a deep Sabretooth J. Roundhouse.
:
: >> Roast 'em.
: > An Inferno perhaps, but not a Yoga Flame/Blast. Not quick enough.
: >That assumes you have your super past level 1.
: Yes, it does. But it's not hopeless.
Not when Wolverine doesn't have a level of super...true. If he
does...expect to see a Weapon X. Sabretooth can't really do anything
short of super jump, though. He MIGHT be able to Berserker Claw X, but
I'm not too sure that Sabre can stay invincible long enough to connect it.
: >> True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
: > Same thing to every other boring turtle. Throw.
: And if Juggernaut knows how to throw, too?
It's not that easy. Don't forget that if Juggernaut guesses wrong on
whether or not Sabre's gonna throw from the ground and he does something,
he risks losing all of his life from Sabre's jumping fierce-roundhouse
infinite. Sabre definitely has better fakes and they yield a higher
reward than most of what Juggy could do.
: >a weak double super, and only 1 super (which isn't bad in itself, but limits
: >her game variety-wise).
: Most characters only have one particularly useful super. Magneto, Ken,
: Ryu, Wolverine, and Cyclops are the only ones I can easily think of who
: have more than one super that's useful enough to be worth using both of
: them frequently.
You forgot Akuma. He's got good all around supers...except for that
horrid Tenma Gou Zankuu (Air FB).
: >However, she has relatively good priority, quickness, an air-dash, and upper-
: >level strength. That's balance. W/S don't have that balance.
: Wolverine and Sabretooth share a critical weakness: they die against
: turtlers that know how to counter-throw.
What ticking patterns do they use? There's simply no way you could
counter-throw Wolverine on reaction with the stuff that I typed above.
As for Sabretooth...well....his ticking game is stifled because of his
lack of chains, making him fall into predictable patterns....but FAST
patterns, nonetheless.
: >Anyone with a full screen dash can... but that's.... lessee... Cammy, Chun
: >(pretty much), Wolvie, Akuma. A good (emphasis on GOOD) Cyclops can play
: >keep away with anyone, regardless of who you're using.
: Well, they can play it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it.
: They can make it hard to get in, they can make it hard to stay in . . . but
: keep you at much more than half the screen's length indefinitely? No.
Don't forget Magneto. Magneto is great against Cyke when you're
offensive and in his face. He can keep up with him, too. Of
course...not that he needs to...but it helps and it's worth mentioning.
Lord BBH
In article <66f8gn$k...@crl.crl.com>, dd...@crl.crl.com (David Alexander S Dial)
writes:
>In article <348B1E...@osf1.gmu.edu>, Dark Schneider
><ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well... nothing in XSF was really and trully skill. It's like saying
>>you have skill in MK. It's all relative.
When it comes down to it, skill is a major factor in who ends up winning, even
in scrub-friendly games like that. You might not believe me, but I've seen VERY
skilled MK players. Sure the game's learning curve is extremely low, but it's
possible to attain a high skill level in that game. It just happens to be a
waste of skill, that's all.
>> Rogue wasn't too good for anything, really.
Uhhhhhh.... ticking? A super that combos off of almost ANY normal move and goes
through fireballs? Three infinites? (although two of them require stolen
special moves) Being able to play both aggressive and keep-out?
>>She was an excellent character concept, but she relied too
>>heavily on specific moves and specific strategies (though stealing
>>certain people's moves added different twists to her).
Well, you obviously didn't play her, because that's not so. There are some
general strategies for playing her that will work against anyone, and you can
combine those with character-specific strategies. I think it's awesome that she
can adjust the way she fights against whoever she's playing. Variety is good.
>One dive kick or jumping short on any character Storm/Cyke's height or
>taller meant INFINITE. On ALL versions (confirmed it on version ass
Version ass? Is that like booty-ass and pure ass?
>yesterday in the arcade). At any point in the infinite, if you get bored
>(usually around hit 60 :), you could do a ground combo off the dive kick
>into a super...
Yeah yeah yeah. But practically everyone in XSF has an infinite.
D. B. Brown
Edward Liu wrote:
> > Blackheart can't be played much except in turtle mode. His moves are
> > just plain too slow to use close up. He'll probably grow on me
> > eventually.
>
> Have you ever even tried to play Blackheart aggressively? That J.
> Forward has excellent priority against jumpers, and that J. Strong has
> awsome range. With BH, I actually have an easier time against Spidey
> and Wolvie if I play aggressively against them. If I turtle, they'll
> eventually use their speed to get through my defenses and rip me to
> shreds.
I must concur; On MSF, I play Blackheart/Mega Zangeif, Blackheart/Dan,
or even Blackheart/Mephisto, and find playing him with an
aggressive style to be so much more useful than turtling. That
J.Forward (or S.Forward, or C.Forward) can knock most characters out
of most moves, even the odd uppercut. I haven't yet found a move
that regularly beats his J.Strong. Combined with his Roundhouse
being most effective (imo, at least) while at the high point of a
jump, BH works best on the move as opposed to just sitting there
in the corner.
But then again, I must admit it's sometimes fun to just sit there
like a rock against a stupid aggressive Wolverine priority whore and
just press Forward whenever they get close.
A good Spiderman is (to me, at least) a harder problem, but
still not unstoppable. Too many people underestimate the
Armageddon in this case - Spiderman invariably finds himself
in move recovery directly above me, and Armageddon does hit
directly above fairly quickly.
--
+=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+
|Do you ever get the feeling that the story's|D. B. Brown |
|too damned real and in the present tense? |dbr...@stny.lrun.com |
| -Ian Anderson | "..." |
+=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=-+
Dark Schneider
> When it comes down to it, skill is a major factor in who ends up winning, even
> in scrub-friendly games like that. You might not believe me, but I've seen VERY
> skilled MK players. Sure the game's learning curve is extremely low, but it's
> possible to attain a high skill level in that game. It just happens to be a
> waste of skill, that's all.
And low learning curve = zero skill. That was the point I was trying to make. Even if you get REALLY
good at it, it means absolutely nothing. Any schmuck with half-a-brain and $20 get become good enough to pose
a threat (no matter how insignificant).
> Uhhhhhh.... ticking? A super that combos off of almost ANY normal move and goes
> through fireballs? Three infinites? (although two of them require stolen
> special moves) Being able to play both aggressive and keep-out?
How many other character can combo MOST normals in their super? Wolverine, ARK, Jugs, Charlie, 'Klops,
'Slim, Cammy, Bison. That's 10 out of the remaining 16. In other words, big deal. Abuse of glitches does not
make a character (case in point Wolverine). W/o a stolen projectile, Rogue's keep-out game pales in comparison
to most others.
> Well, you obviously didn't play her, because that's not so. There are some
> general strategies for playing her that will work against anyone, and you can
> combine those with character-specific strategies. I think it's awesome that she
> can adjust the way she fights against whoever she's playing. Variety is good.
Actually I played her quite frequently (Hell, I played anyone frequently who didn't have claws or shot
fireballs). The fact that she can adjust the way she fights is why she's such a great character concept.
Variety is definitely good. However, she suffered from some very basic problems. Weak specials (apart from
the kiss), poor team player (poor counter and double), and only 1 super (variety issues... and no, the stolen
Raging Demon does not count).
> Yeah yeah yeah. But practically everyone in XSF has an infinite.
In the old versions. Only the truly boring had one later on.
Stilt Man
In article <66lced$23d$1...@gondor.sdsu.edu>,
>: Onaje Everett <oeve...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote:
>: >Stilt Man (stil...@user1.teleport.com) wrote:
>: >: Cyclops, Magneto, and Storm are all nearly purely defensive characters in
>: >: XSF.
>
>: >WHOA, Stilt!!
>: >Storm is defensive. Cyclops and Magneto are better used offensively ...
[snip]
>: Okay, teach me something I don't know. Take an opponent with a move that
>: can hit quickly for about half the screen's length or more along the ground.
>: Someone like Rogue, Bison, Cammy, Dhalsim, Juggernaut, Chun Li (LK super),
>: Charlie (dash into super somersault), Gambit, or . . . well, most anyone
>: in the game. Now say that opponent does little but keep themselves within
>: about half the screen's distance and then just sits there and looks at you
>: until you make the first move. What do you do?
>You hit them first and combo them for big damage...which is what *I* do.
>Trust me...it works.
Well . . . that doesn't answer my question, it just repeats your comment
that made me ask the question in the first place. What does Cyclops have
that can initiate an attack through their air defense or ground defense, and
what can he end with that doesn't get him pounded in response? In my
experience, a Cyclops that's *deliberately* staying close to say, Rogue,
Bison, Juggernaut, Cammy, Charlie, or Chun Li is a guy who likes spending
large amounts of time at change machines.
>: I'll tell you what you do. You put some distance between you and them,
>: because if they're not willing to screw up so you can do some damage, you
>: are completely shut down at that distance. Your poke moves can be blocked
>: and ignored or just plain whacked. Your special moves all give them free
>: hits at that range. And unless they just plain don't know how to block,
>: the only moves you have that can do any damage at them safely without them
>: attacking you first are your supers.
>You don't have to end every combo with an Optic Blast. The Cyclops Kick
>can be safe at certain ranges, too.
Very, very few of them. If I have a fast super (which covers Rogue, Bison,
Cammy, Juggernaut, Charlie, Chun Li . . .) it's never safe.
>Plus, there's also double standing roundhouse.
Which I don't care about, because it does zero damage if I block.
>Against characters that have really fast supers, you simply
>adjust. Still, Cyke does have safe combos.
Against an opponent that has fast supers, he has zero safe combos that do
block damage. And that's my whole point. If your opponent picks a character
with fast moves that can punish him on the ground after a blocked move,
Cyclops *has* to keep his distance.
>: Which means you *have* to either let them make the first move, or you have
>: to play keep-away, or you have to stall until you've got a super meter full
>: and then let loose with the super for whittle damage. There's just no way
>: around it. No safe short-range whittle attacks means you play some form
>: of defensive game or you die.
>I'm not arguing that Cyke can't play defense....but it's usually not the
>best way to win with him. Besides, in XSF, that Mega Optic Blast was so
>comboable that it was scary.
Not if the opponent knows how to roll, it isn't. Cyclops close up just
plain can't do a thing unless his opponent screws up. The opponent *has*
to make the first move if it's going to involve Cyclops doing real damage
without taking a lot more, because nothing he has that does block damage
is safe to use at close range if the opponent has fast moves to punish
him afterwards. And without close-range safe block damage moves, he *has*
to play keep-away. Against characters that *can't* punish him, sure, he'd
probably be fairly effective on offense. But there aren't very many of
those.
Stilt Man
In article <348E12...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> > Turtle = boring. Charlie's a better aggressor than turtle in XSF,
>> >anyway.
>> I'm using "turtle" as a figure of speech. Charlie can charge a flash kick
>> and then forget about Sabretooth's air priority. Wolverine, he can't ignore
>> anyway, because when Wolvie hits the ground he can do the standing fierce and
>> hit Charlie as he lands; Sabretooth can't do that.
> Not if you do a short somersault, no. I love Chuckles for just that
>reason.
Same here. Short flash kick is the *only* flash kick that matters, IMO. :)
[One particular annoying scrub DS is talking about...]
> All he
>used was Charlie/Sabretooth, baited you into the air-combo into throw into
>super with Tooth.
Can't you just tech hit out of the air throw or nail them with an air jab
or short when you see the pause? I would think that this move would get
rather badly shut down if you can *expect* it coming.
>> Fire a hyper-grav at them in the air, then. That either hits them or
>> bounces them away a fair amount of the time.
> I agree, but a disruptor is useless.
Not until the hyper-grav bounces them back to the ground, anyway. If they're
so wired to jump all the time in scrubby fashion, a disruptor following up
a hyper-grav that's bounced them back to the ground will probably connect.
If they're scrubby enough that they're thinking pure attack, the hyper-grav
might just catch them, leaving them nice and juicy for a shockwave.
>> > If they're a full screen away. One super jump... problem solved.
>> One standing forward/yoga flame blocked combo, problem reinstated.
> Once again, a matter of placement. If they're smart, they don't fall
>for that. (much like my previously mentioned friend)
Depends. It's rather hard to put yourself in a place where Dhalsim can't
eventually stick out a limb safely.
>> Zangief, in XSF, has some serious problems with a lot of characters if they
>> play keepaway. He just plain has a lot of trouble staying close to people.
>> If he gets close, sure, he gives people a rough time. But that lack of
>> speed makes him overall one of the weaker characters in this game. Against
>> Wolverine, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Charlie . . . bad news.
> Agreed, but an above average Z is a scrub crusher. Pure and simple.
>Point: Z does not suck, he's just bottom or middle-tier, depending on your
>opinion. BTW, a ToD a day keeps the scrubs away. :)
Okay . . . let me rephrase that. Zangief has his uses as a scrub-crusher.
But if your opponent really knows what they're doing, he has serious problems.
Hence my opinion that for the most part, he sucks.
>> > Turtle = boring.
>> Irrelevant. Juggernaut wins, which means they have to think of something
>> else. If they can't do that . . . oh well.
> Relevant. It's the whole basis of my point. I don't want to play a
>boring game. Do you? You may think it's not boring, which is fine. But I do.
Well, then why are we arguing? :)
>> >> True. But what can Sabretooth do against a turtling Juggernaut?
>> > Same thing to every other boring turtle. Throw.
>> And if Juggernaut knows how to throw, too?
> Irrelevant. He's turtling. Which is a purely defensive posture.
Not *purely* defensive, just waiting until he's got his chance. If Juggernaut
knows how to throw, Sabretooth doing so isn't a threat. Considering that
Juggernaut can combo most any throw into a super without giving you a chance
to roll, trying to get into a throw battle with Juggernaut on the ground is not
a real bright move unless you're Rogue or Zangief. If Juggernaut picks his
shots and is ready and waiting to throw, Sabretooth has serious problems.
>> > Cammy's standing RH (I assume you mean the non-launcher) will be
>> >out-prioritized by Wolvie J. Fierce or a "GRAA!"'s J. Roundhouse 9 times
>> >out of 10. Period.
>> True. I was referring to if they're doing quick moves rather than the
>> fierce or roundhouse. Those things are easy to cannon spike on reflex.
> That's one hell of a reflex. Tooth's RH comes out awful damn quick.
I used to be one of those Bisons in SF2 that had learned to recognize the
first frame of a fireball animation from Ken, Ryu, or Sagat -- i.e. know
when it was a fireball and not a fake of some form -- and then head stomp on
reflex. Once I saw it, I was usually in the air and halfway there before
the fireball was even fully released. Cannon spiking on reflex is largely
the same principle, except it's actually a lot easier against Sabretooth
because Tooth's whole posture changes when he's doing a move as opposed
to just jumping. With K/R/S, it took a lot of attention to detail to make
sure you had the right move because the indicator was a set of hands going
to the hips or an arm drawing back -- the general posture stayed about the
same. With Sabretooth, he stays curled in a ball if he's just jumping but
stretches his whole body around if he throws a move, so recognizing one
from the other doesn't take a whole lot of attention. With some other
characters it takes a bit more attention to detail or listening for the
character's voice. If Wolverine didn't make this big grunt production of
his aerial moves he'd be pretty hard to do this to. Most other characters
either don't require you to use the cannon spike because a standing roundhouse
will suffice, or they're safe to whiff it against.
>> Well, I disagree, and I've given you mine. If you don't like getting bored
>> by scrubs, you're playing in the wrong arcade. Go find one where they know
>> what they're doing. :)
> No matter what arcade you go to, you're gonna find scrubs. I don't
>care where you live. They're there. And you've gotta play 'em. Over, and
>over, and over, and over again. It wears thin on my fragile nerves. :)
Well, that's part of the game. Just to put a cynical light on it: keep
in mind that by definition, half the population is below average. Gotta
be able to live with 'em, because they're everywhere. As long as they're
not *stubborn* idiots, I don't mind. And even if they are, I still usually
don't mind as long as I'm not hungry. :)
>> Rushing punches are also very nice when they hit. If you can play with the
>> kind of precision to switch between the rushing punches and the kiss depending
>> on whether or not you're hitting your opponent, they're actually quite useful.
> The Rushing Punches are useless outside of a combo. Too easy to spot.
The rushing punches are pretty much useless unless you know they're going to
connect, yes. That means that you either combo with them or you use them
in response to a blocked move. They come out fast enough that the latter
happens a lot more often than you'd expect. Not quite as good as Bison's
scissors for this sort of thing, but still good enough that you're missing
something if you're not keeping them in mind.
>> Most characters only have one particularly useful super. Magneto, Ken,
>> Ryu, Wolverine, and Cyclops are the only ones I can easily think of who
>> have more than one super that's useful enough to be worth using both of
>> them frequently.
> That's 5 right there. Plus Akuma (SGS + Messatsu Go Shoryu) and
>Charlie (Sonic Blade, infinite uses, Somersault Justice, sick priority)
>makes 7. That's nearly half the game. Z, Jugs, Rogue, and Gambit all have 1
>super.
I suppose.
>> Wolverine and Sabretooth share a critical weakness: they die against
>> turtlers that know how to counter-throw.
> So does everyone else. That's a common flaw of the Marvel engine.
I disagree. Most of the characters in the game have very good whittle
weapons. Rogue's kiss steal, Juggernaut's earthquake, Cyclops' optic blast
(at long range), Magneto's disruptor and hyper-grav, Charlie's sonic boom,
Bison's short scissors and projectile (sort of), Chun Li's lightning kick,
Dhalsim's yoga flame, Gambit's kinetic cards, Storm's typhoons, Ken, Ryu,
and Akuma's fireballs, all nice whittle weapons that are quite safe to use
in some circumstance against most opponents. If you turtle, Cammy and
Wolvie can tick pretty well (I'd give Cammy the nod on this one because
her throws do more damage and can be comboed into other moves better).
But against a knowledgable turtle, Zangief and Sabretooth have very little
that they can do. Zangief at least has the advantage of throws with reach,
but Sabretooth doesn't have any real ticking game. So if you turtle up on
him and pick your shots, he's going to die. Most other characters, you
can't just turtle and forget about them.
>> My problem with Ryu as opposed to Ken or Akuma is that Ryu doesn't have the
>> Shoryureppa to punish a blocked optic blast at medium range, leaving Cyclops
>> a lot more freedom to fire off optic blasts at will. If it weren't for those,
>> I'd put Ken and Akuma together with Ryu in this boat.
> Yeah, but Shoryureppa is a waste of a super. Nil damage, and 'Klops
>lands before they do, eat a super. (Wait, hold up... I'm not sure about that
>last statement... I'll have to double check on that)
I know that's wrong on XSF. MSF might be different.
>> Are you kidding? With his dash and reach? He's one of the *easiest* to
>> keep up with him.
> Dash good. Reach useless. 'Klops' moves too fast. And double jump can
>easily avoid most attempted limb attacks.
After an optic blast, he gets tagged. Without the optic blast, he's crippled
in the keep-away game.
>> Well, they can play it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it.
>> They can make it hard to get in, they can make it hard to stay in . . . but
>> keep you at much more than half the screen's length indefinitely? No.
> It's the fact that he can play that BS game relatively effectively
>(along with small lag OB) that makes him unbalanced and only helps XSF in
>to "BS" status.
No worse than FB/DP back in SF2 days, and actually easier to shut down with
most characters.
>> Bison doesn't need a full screen dash, he only needs scissors range. It's
>> not that hard for him to keep it. Rogue also doesn't need a full screen dash,
>> she only needs rushing punch range. It's not that hard for her to keep it,
>> either. Dhalsim only needs limbs range. It's ridiculously easy for him to
>> keep it. Juggernaut only needs a full meter, and after that, range is
>> irrelevant. Magneto's jab disruptor doesn't even need the meter, making
>> range irrelevant in general. Ken and Akuma need a full meter *and* close
>> range, and it's not too hard to get either one.
> However, in any of these cases, if Cyclops blocks any of these
>attacks...
You don't understand. If any of the above gets within the above ranges,
and Cyclops does an optic blast, there's no such thing as blocking. Rogue's
rushing punches, Bison's scissors, Cammy's cannon drill, Dhalsim's limbs,
Ken/Akuma/Chun's supers, and even Juggernaut's forward sweep will all
connect from between a third to half the screen away after a blocked optic
blast, with zippo, zero, nil, nada chance of Cyclops blocking. If Juggernaut
has a meter full, he can literally forget about having to get close to
Cyclops, because he can headcrush the guy after a blocked optic blast from
*anywhere* on the ground, even if their backs are pressed against opposite
walls. Magneto's jab disruptor doesn't need the meter full. I'm telling
you that they can shut the optic blast down with the simple threat of what
they'll do to him after they block it once they're within a halfway easily
attained range. Unless he's most of the way across the screen from them,
the optic blast is useless -- and against a metered Juggernaut or Magneto
in general, the optic blast is useless regardless of range. And this
cripples Cyclops very badly against competent opponents.
>> > True, but in an upper level battle, a good (emphasis on good) Ryu isn't
>> >gonna have any trouble getting away from his own fireball. Lord knows he has
>> >to do it all the time.
>> Getting away from his own fireball from another Ryu is a very different
>> thing than getting away from his own fireball from Rogue. Rogue's fireball,
>> when first thrown, has a hit area the size of Juggernaut. Really. If
>> you're within about a body length of her and you're anywhere on the screen
>> in front of her when she first throws it, it connects. That's a whole
>> different world from Ryu's fireball thrown by another Ryu, and it makes
>> for a different Rogue than Charlie's sonic boom does. I'm not going to
>> say Ryu's fireball is better for her than the 'boom -- the quick recovery
>> time and rapid throwing of multiple 'booms fixes that equation -- but it's
>> one of the more useful ones Rogue can grab.
> The initial hit box is nice and all, but not nearly enough reason for
>Rogue to waste her time on it. She should be trying to kiss or initiate a
>combo.
Well, if she gets within reach of that, yes. But once she gets close enough,
the fireball is a big plus, and makes an extra option that she doesn't
otherwise have.
>> Against Zangief, she certainly can. She's faster than he is, her moves are
>> safer than his, she can go right underneath the lariat with the crouching
>> strong and combo it into whatever she feels like, stolen SPD ticks out of that
>> are going to be a factor, the kiss provides whittle damage that he can't return
>> easily, her air defense is going to completely shut down any notions of jumping
>> in for ticks, and most of his normal moves on the ground with any reach are
>> asking for trouble if she blocks. If Gief is partnered with a character that
>> has a decent projectile that Rogue can steal, it just gets worse.
> But how many Z's combo with projectile people. :) (Charlie's the only
>one I use)
That will do. Rogue with sonic booms against Zangief is a turkey shoot.
>The kiss is too slow, even for Z.
If your Rogues are attempting kisses on the ground without a crouching
strong to set up the tick, they're being phenomenally stupid. That tick
is prohibitively difficult for a human to counter due to the sheer speed
at which the kiss follows up the blocked strong at that range. Any
situation which can set up an SPD tick (if she's got the SPD) is a
situation which can set up a kiss tick, only you can't tech hit out of
it.
>Rogue's other moves are worthless against Z. SPD ticks will get her a long
>way, but a good Z will stuff most other attempts at offense.
False dichotomy. The same moves that set up SPD ticks set up a hell of a
lot of the rest of Rogue's offense as well.
>> Against Zangief with Rogue, if all else fails, I see a basic and simple keep
>> away strategy. I super jump all over the place and fill up the meter with
>> strong punches I'm tossing while I'm in the stratosphere. For annoyance
>> value maybe I'll kiss-tick you once in a while, but mostly I'm just going
>> for cheesy meter-filling stuff and killing the clock while maintaining a
>> comfortable lead against you with the kiss-tick whittling. Once I've got
>> a meter or two full, I back into the corner and quite cheerfully wait for
>> you to try something against your better judgment. If I'm ahead (and if I
>> kiss-tick carefully, I probably will be), you have one of two choices:
>> switch characters for a more effective attack and pray that the damage from
>> Rogue's super doesn't fatally wound your chances of catching up before I
>> run out the clock, or you try to attack, which eight times of ten is going
>> to get you smooched into the corner for an easy super, at which point I
>> resume the process.
> <snooze> And this, my friend, is the exact reason why vs. bores me to
>tears. Boring garbage tactics. You can say "If it works, it works" if you
>like, but that doesn't take away from the fact the vs. engine is flawed as
>sin.
You're dodging the question. What, if anything, can Zangief do against a
defensive Rogue? Against an *offensive* Rogue, he can indeed be trouble.
But this is one of the beauties of ol' skunk-hair: she can shift gears
rather nicely from offense to defense depending on who she's up against.
If you're playing Zangief against her, she doesn't have much choice but
to play it carefully. Don't blame it on the engine if it works. With
most characters against Rogue, it doesn't. Zangief is a special case, along
with Wolverine and Sabretooth, where she wants to play more defensive and
pick her shots carefully. And she does so very, very nicely if she really
wants to, without having to get into outright "bore you to death" tactics
like this.
>> If she's got a sonic boom or a yoga flame, she's not completely indestructible,
>> but she's damned hard to beat. Normally, the best way to fight Rogue with
>> most characters is to keep her away from you, because a short-range fight
>> is most painful for most of them. With the sonic boom or yoga flame, that
>> option goes straight out the window, because she'll win distance wars when
>> she's got 'em against most anyone.
> Well, Rogue with a Boom is tough to beat, but certainly nowhere near
>unbeatable. The Flame is about a milli-second faster that 'Slim's. No more
>useful.
Then you haven't learned its full fury yet. Dhalsim's flame takes a
moment of huff-and-puff before he releases it, it gets cancelled when
it hits another projectile, and it also has a recovery time. Rogue's
flame has none of these afflictions. She can combo it, she can cut
through other peoples' projectiles with it, and she can use it with
virtually impunity due to its minimal-to-nonexistent recovery time.
The same sorts of players who play Dhalsim don't tend to play Cyclops,
so I don't know if an optic blast could punish her after a blocked
flame, but most anything slower than that, forget about it -- not the
case with Dhalsim.
Rogue with a sonic boom or a flame is really hard to deal with. If they play
modestly aggressive with a shower of booms or flames to cover their attack,
it's nightmarish. Charlie has enough moves that he can keep from falling
behind too much and then switch out to the other character and hopefully
wear Rogue down over a long period of time. Dhalsim . . . it's probably over
once she's got the flame unless you hurt her a lot before she got it. Dhalsim
simply can do nothing against a flaming Rogue. His reach is useless while
she's got the flame because it cuts through all his projectiles. And fighting
a close up game with Dhalsim against Rogue? I wince even thinking about it.
As a result, that one's going to depend almost entirely on Dhalsim's partner,
which is why it's probably over if she gets the flame while still fairly
healthy, because few to no characters can tackle a good Rogue with a flame
straight up, and they have to because Dhalsim sure as hell ain't going to.
> > I'm not the only one who's rated her top tier on the Internet. I seem to
>> recall Valle posting a similar rating for her (which even I doubted at the
>> time before I'd gotten better with her). I respectfully disagree with
>> your assessment of her.
> Hmmm... don't remember back that far. Like I said, she's Top 5 for me,
>but certainly doesn't reach 'Clops, Wolvie, Ryu (I hate him, but he's
>powerful), or Chuckles.
Hmmmm. About the only one I agree with is Charlie here. Cyclops and Wolvie
are just overrated, IMO. It's not that hard to shut down the optic blast
against Cyclops, and without it he's crippled. And Wolvie is too one-
dimensional to be very effective overall, IMO. There are some people he
can annoy pretty badly, but most can stop him in some way. Ryu, I can agree
that he's moderately effective, but I wouldn't call him crushingly powerful.
I actually like Ken better than Ryu in XSF in particular. Ryu's projectiles
are better than Ken's, but that ain't saying much with the field they're
up against. Ken's Shoryureppa is a nasty ground punisher and the Shinryuken
makes a nasty surprise on air defense. Overall, Ken and Ryu have a lot of
the same weaknesses, but I think that Ken's better offense overrides Ryu's
better projectiles in the long run.
My personal choices for overall best characters would be Rogue, Dhalsim,
Charlie, and Bison. Second tier of considerable but not overpowering
characters would be Ken, Ryu, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Gambit, Magneto,
Chun Li, Cammy, and Juggernaut, with Wolvie, Cammy, and Juggernaut being
at the upper end of this tier. Third tier goes to Akuma (takes too much
damage without really getting much in return that Ken and Ryu can't do better),
Cyclops (too easy to shut down optic blasts and not much he can do without
them), Zangief (only useful as a scrubcrusher due to the general ease most
characters have in staying away from him), and Storm (takes too much damage
and doesn't dish much out; she can annoy people and do little else).
In MSF, I'd be willing to give Cyclops more credit, because although his
optic blast got marginally slower, the number of folks who can shut it
down halfway easily went down to something like two. In XSF there's just
too many people with quick moves on the ground that can stop it; in MSF
they've been replaced with Shotoklones, and those were about the only ones
in XSF who were *not* able to deal with it.
RZARECTAH
Hey everybody, I just have a question about cart swapping. Some people
have told me cart-swapping is really dangerous and that their friends
have fried their Saturns by doing it. But others say that there's
nothing to worry about and that anybody that fries their system just
wasn't careful. Does anybody out there have some first hand experience
or know someone who has dealt with cart swapping? Thanks.
RZARECTAH
Is MSH compatible with the 4 meg RAM cart?
Dark Schneider
> > All he
> >used was Charlie/Sabretooth, baited you into the air-combo into throw into
> >super with Tooth.
>
> Can't you just tech hit out of the air throw or nail them with an air jab
> or short when you see the pause? I would think that this move would get
> rather badly shut down if you can *expect* it coming.
Yes, you can tech hit, but if they're good (which he was), a jab or short doesn't come out fast enough
(unless I'm using Wolvie... ick). One missed tech hit, you die.
> Not until the hyper-grav bounces them back to the ground, anyway. If they're
> so wired to jump all the time in scrubby fashion, a disruptor following up
> a hyper-grav that's bounced them back to the ground will probably connect.
> If they're scrubby enough that they're thinking pure attack, the hyper-grav
> might just catch them, leaving them nice and juicy for a shockwave.
That kind of keep-away only works for so long.
> Depends. It's rather hard to put yourself in a place where Dhalsim can't
> eventually stick out a limb safely.
Not if you've played enough. You yourself should know that eventually you learn the ranges on just
about everything. Scrubs are no different.
> Okay . . . let me rephrase that. Zangief has his uses as a scrub-crusher.
> But if your opponent really knows what they're doing, he has serious problems.
> Hence my opinion that for the most part, he sucks.
Opinion. He's got the single best non-infinite combo in the game (ToD), the most powerful super (which
a good player will find a way to hit with every time), an excellent variable counter (invincible for a hell
of a long time), and the most powerful special move (SPD). He's slow as balls, but when he hits, he hurts.
You're entitled to your opinion. I have my own.
> Well, then why are we arguing? :)
Because argumentation is the fundamental background of learning. One either confirms their beliefs or
incorporates the ideas of others to that particular schema. You've helped me realize a few things, and I hope
you feel likewise.
> > Irrelevant. He's turtling. Which is a purely defensive posture.
>
> Not *purely* defensive, just waiting until he's got his chance. If Juggernaut
> knows how to throw, Sabretooth doing so isn't a threat. Considering that
> Juggernaut can combo most any throw into a super without giving you a chance
> to roll, trying to get into a throw battle with Juggernaut on the ground is not
> a real bright move unless you're Rogue or Zangief. If Juggernaut picks his
> shots and is ready and waiting to throw, Sabretooth has serious problems.
You snipped the rest of what I said. Naughty naughty. The rest explained exactly what you just said in
one sentence. However, Juggy is the last person you want to hap-hazardly try to throw with. Sabretooth is fast
enough to play a great guessing game with Jugs. Playing a throw battle with Juggy is an excellent idea. He
wiffs, he dies. The weakest button you can use to throw is a strong, and that leaves him entirely too open if
you wiff.
> Well, that's part of the game. Just to put a cynical light on it: keep
> in mind that by definition, half the population is below average. Gotta
> be able to live with 'em, because they're everywhere. As long as they're
> not *stubborn* idiots, I don't mind. And even if they are, I still usually
> don't mind as long as I'm not hungry. :)
<raises eyebrow> A rather elitist view, wouldn't you say? Cynical, definitely. Of course, if I truly
look at myself, I'm probably the same way.
<snip... it's too long to begin with :)>
> The rushing punches are pretty much useless unless you know they're going to
> connect, yes. That means that you either combo with them or you use them
> in response to a blocked move. They come out fast enough that the latter
> happens a lot more often than you'd expect. Not quite as good as Bison's
> scissors for this sort of thing, but still good enough that you're missing
> something if you're not keeping them in mind.
Then the rushin punches have the exact same amount of uses as Wolvie's B. Barrage, which you've
already deemed useless. Same speed, same priority, same combo-ability.
<snip Sabretooth turtle>
You know how I feel about that. Don't bother. :)
> > Yeah, but Shoryureppa is a waste of a super. Nil damage, and 'Klops
> >lands before they do, eat a super. (Wait, hold up... I'm not sure about that
> >last statement... I'll have to double check on that)
>
> I know that's wrong on XSF. MSF might be different.
I went back and checked. Sabretooth, Jugs, Gambit, Mags only. (I think) Still, Shoryureppa overall is
a poor super. (Nil damage, aforementioned problems with those 4. As a counter for the O.Blast, perhaps. But it
still does zero damage. (20% is nil for me)
> > Dash good. Reach useless. 'Klops' moves too fast. And double jump can
> >easily avoid most attempted limb attacks.
>
> After an optic blast, he gets tagged. Without the optic blast, he's crippled
> in the keep-away game.
Very true. W/o Optic Blast, 'Klops loses keep-away game. But double jump + O.B. + speed equals trouble
vs. many folks. I'm still nowhere near convinced that 'Slim can keep up with a s.j.ing 'Klops. Yes, his arms
and legs go far, and his dash, while fairly poor, goes fairly far, he still has trouble actually hitting in my
experience (watching... I don't use an awful lot of 'Slim in XSF). Cyclops just has a lot more options than
most. (O.B. on the way down, O.B., then double jump, fake O.B., double jump in for combo)
> > It's the fact that he can play that BS game relatively effectively
> >(along with small lag OB) that makes him unbalanced and only helps XSF in
> >to "BS" status.
>
> No worse than FB/DP back in SF2 days, and actually easier to shut down with
> most characters.
Much worse. If you couldn't stuff a FB/DP trap (w/ anyone), that's your problem. Much easier, and much
more enjoyable. Then again, scrubs didn't run as rampant back then. And when they did, they were so much
easier to beat.
> > However, in any of these cases, if Cyclops blocks any of these
> >attacks...
>
> You don't understand. If any of the above gets within the above ranges,
> and Cyclops does an optic blast, there's no such thing as blocking. Rogue's
> rushing punches, Bison's scissors, Cammy's cannon drill, Dhalsim's limbs,
> Ken/Akuma/Chun's supers, and even Juggernaut's forward sweep will all
> connect from between a third to half the screen away after a blocked optic
> blast, with zippo, zero, nil, nada chance of Cyclops blocking. If Juggernaut
> has a meter full, he can literally forget about having to get close to
> Cyclops, because he can headcrush the guy after a blocked optic blast from
> *anywhere* on the ground, even if their backs are pressed against opposite
> walls. Magneto's jab disruptor doesn't need the meter full. I'm telling
> you that they can shut the optic blast down with the simple threat of what
> they'll do to him after they block it once they're within a halfway easily
> attained range. Unless he's most of the way across the screen from them,
> the optic blast is useless -- and against a metered Juggernaut or Magneto
> in general, the optic blast is useless regardless of range. And this
> cripples Cyclops very badly against competent opponents.
Not meaning to pick, but what is a metered Maggy gonna do that an unmetered one couldn't. Neither
of his super's are gonna do bupkis from half the screen away. Jugs, yes. The Headcrush has some crazy speed.
The bottom line is this: a good player can find a way out of all the things we've discussed ('Klops keep-away,
Sabretooth/Wolvie's priority, ad nauseum tactics) That doesn't get around the fact that there are some
serious flaws in the Marvel engine. Always have been, always will be. If you're willing to put up with game
flaws, have fun. The rest of us will play something else.
> Well, if she gets within reach of that, yes. But once she gets close enough,
> the fireball is a big plus, and makes an extra option that she doesn't
> otherwise have.
If you're close enough to hit with that hit box, you're close to initiate a kiss tick or a combo.
> That will do. Rogue with sonic booms against Zangief is a turkey shoot.
That one move does not eliminate Z's entire game, nor does Rogue.
> If your Rogues are attempting kisses on the ground without a crouching
> strong to set up the tick, they're being phenomenally stupid. That tick
> is prohibitively difficult for a human to counter due to the sheer speed
> at which the kiss follows up the blocked strong at that range. Any
> situation which can set up an SPD tick (if she's got the SPD) is a
> situation which can set up a kiss tick, only you can't tech hit out of
> it.
My Rogue (and most of the ones I play) steal off a short or the crouching strong. It's not a tick. A
true tick is unblockable. Rogue's are very beatable. Z gets in an SPD between the two, Rogue's goin' for the
ride.
> False dichotomy. The same moves that set up SPD ticks set up a hell of a
> lot of the rest of Rogue's offense as well.
True. My fault. Let the words fall out before my train of thought was complete. :)
> > <snooze> And this, my friend, is the exact reason why vs. bores me to
> >tears. Boring garbage tactics. You can say "If it works, it works" if you
> >like, but that doesn't take away from the fact the vs. engine is flawed as
> >sin.
>
> You're dodging the question. What, if anything, can Zangief do against a
> defensive Rogue? Against an *offensive* Rogue, he can indeed be trouble.
> But this is one of the beauties of ol' skunk-hair: she can shift gears
> rather nicely from offense to defense depending on who she's up against.
> If you're playing Zangief against her, she doesn't have much choice but
> to play it carefully. Don't blame it on the engine if it works. With
> most characters against Rogue, it doesn't. Zangief is a special case, along
> with Wolverine and Sabretooth, where she wants to play more defensive and
> pick her shots carefully. And she does so very, very nicely if she really
> wants to, without having to get into outright "bore you to death" tactics
> like this.
You have to play the most incredibly boring variety of turtle to completely block off Z's offense. And
by that time, who's interested in playing? I'm not dodging the question. I'm merely answering your question
with my opinion on those particular tactics. CRAP. If you feel the Marvel engine isn't horrendously flawed,
you're by yourself with the scrubs. And if you think those boring, garbage tactics are a valid part of a
quality game, you're talking to the wrong ng. Most SF players won't give you the time of day. I happen to
enjoy the vs. games for what they are: mindless, flailing, fun. But I don't put them up on the pedestal(sp? It
just looks wrong) of upper echelons of strategy gaming. <calms nerves> Sorry... it's finals time. I'm
stressing. You picked a poor time to argue with me. :)
> Then you haven't learned its full fury yet. Dhalsim's flame takes a
> moment of huff-and-puff before he releases it, it gets cancelled when
> it hits another projectile, and it also has a recovery time. Rogue's
> flame has none of these afflictions. She can combo it, she can cut
> through other peoples' projectiles with it, and she can use it with
> virtually impunity due to its minimal-to-nonexistent recovery time.
> The same sorts of players who play Dhalsim don't tend to play Cyclops,
> so I don't know if an optic blast could punish her after a blocked
> flame, but most anything slower than that, forget about it -- not the
> case with Dhalsim.
Yes, it can combo, just like the rushing punches. Anyone with a super projectile eats her up. Ryu
blocks it, unleashes mid-air Super Fireball. It has very similar uses to the rushing punches, just w/o the
sick recovery time. It also gives her an advantage over certain other characters. If used well, it keeps Z,
'Slim, and a couple others away.
> Hmmmm. About the only one I agree with is Charlie here. Cyclops and Wolvie
> are just overrated, IMO. It's not that hard to shut down the optic blast
> against Cyclops, and without it he's crippled. And Wolvie is too one-
> dimensional to be very effective overall, IMO. There are some people he
> can annoy pretty badly, but most can stop him in some way. Ryu, I can agree
> that he's moderately effective, but I wouldn't call him crushingly powerful.
> I actually like Ken better than Ryu in XSF in particular. Ryu's projectiles
> are better than Ken's, but that ain't saying much with the field they're
> up against. Ken's Shoryureppa is a nasty ground punisher and the Shinryuken
> makes a nasty surprise on air defense. Overall, Ken and Ryu have a lot of
> the same weaknesses, but I think that Ken's better offense overrides Ryu's
> better projectiles in the long run.
Ick. Ryu blows away Ken. Shoryureppa is worthless outside of a combo (and sucks inside if you're
fighting the four previously stated). His dash blows. Shinryuken is worthless unless used as anti-air or
comboed off a launcher. Ryu: Sick damage on Shinkuu Tatsumaki, a million uses for the Shinkuu Hadoken, next to
no lag on FB, plus better range on fireball, better variable counter, better double.
> My personal choices for overall best characters would be Rogue, Dhalsim,
> Charlie, and Bison. Second tier of considerable but not overpowering
> characters would be Ken, Ryu, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Gambit, Magneto,
> Chun Li, Cammy, and Juggernaut, with Wolvie, Cammy, and Juggernaut being
> at the upper end of this tier. Third tier goes to Akuma (takes too much
> damage without really getting much in return that Ken and Ryu can't do better),
> Cyclops (too easy to shut down optic blasts and not much he can do without
> them), Zangief (only useful as a scrubcrusher due to the general ease most
> characters have in staying away from him), and Storm (takes too much damage
> and doesn't dish much out; she can annoy people and do little else).
Definitely would edit out 'Slim + Bison from top tier. I love 'em both, but neither can stand up to
Rogue, Chuckles, Ryu, Wolvie. Bison's middle-low tier for me, only because he can link the psycho crusher and
scissor kick easily. Too many useless moves. Slim's middle for me also. Much improved over his A2 incarnation,
but still not 1st tier.
1st: Chuckles, 'Klops ('Klops in the bottom tier is lunacy), Wolvie, Chunner, Rogue (what can I say... you've
converted me... :) (In no particular order)
2nd: Ryu, Cammy, 'Slim, Gambit, Tooth (The rest are a little more ordered)
3rd: Juggy, Ken, Goukers, Mags, Bison
Bottom: Z, Storm
Dark Schneider
RZARECTAH wrote:
>
> Is MSH compatible with the 4 meg RAM cart?
Nope.
Dark Schneider
Yes, you can most certainly fry your Saturn. It's a hell of a lot easier to do with the 4-meg cart
too. My advice: Play it safe. Shell out the $50. Or do it yourself... it's a lot easier than you might
suspect.
Ryan Tolentino
>RZARECTAH wrote:
>>
>> Is MSH compatible with the 4 meg RAM cart?
>
>Nope.
>
>--
>Dark Schneider, Editor at High Voltage Online
>A Fighter's Dream Come True
>http://fighters.simplenet.com/hv/
>
>"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
> Of course, I'm not sure about the former." - Einstein
>
>SF Code 5.0:
>(Z+ S(SFA2,SSF2T)>+ K+ G(SF2HF) Bd(SFA))
>[ac- ch- cn c+ cc- 2- g+ m n+:+ o+ os+ !p r-(+ vs. ARK)
> s sp-- st ta- tm-: th- tr-:-- v+]
Yes it is, All animations intact, Hey Dark Schneider better do your
research with a little more effort.
One Eyed Jack
Dark Schneider (ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu) wrote:
: RZARECTAH wrote:
: >
: > Is MSH compatible with the 4 meg RAM cart?
: Nope.
I heard that it was compatible, but just didn't offer any
inprovements over the 1mb cart.
Onaje Everett
Dark Schneider (ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu) wrote:
: > Uhhhhhh.... ticking? A super that combos off of almost ANY normal move and goes
: > through fireballs? Three infinites? (although two of them require stolen
: > special moves) Being able to play both aggressive and keep-out?
: How many other character can combo MOST normals in their super?
Let's see.
: Wolverine, ARK,
Ryu can't combo a super off of anything but a hard attack on the ground
or a medium attack in an air combo. Ryu's combo-ability is not that
great...which is why he's not that great offensively compared to Ken or
Akuma. Ken and Akuma, however, can combo both of their Shoryureppa-type
supers off of anything.
: Jugs, Charlie, 'Klops,
: 'Slim, Cammy, Bison. That's 10 out of the remaining 16. In other words, big deal. Abuse of glitches does not
: make a character (case in point Wolverine). W/o a stolen projectile, Rogue's keep-out game pales in comparison
: to most others.
She's still a good character to use if you're looking to not have your
brain shutdown automatically. She IS a skill character. There's simply
no way a scrub can win with Rogue. It just does not happen.
Dark Schneider
> : Wolverine, ARK,
>
> Ryu can't combo a super off of anything but a hard attack on the ground
> or a medium attack in an air combo. Ryu's combo-ability is not that
> great...which is why he's not that great offensively compared to Ken or
> Akuma. Ken and Akuma, however, can combo both of their Shoryureppa-type
> supers off of anything.
Actually, the light attacks chain in mid-air as well for Ryu. And only the medium punch, not the
medium kick. Shoryureppa blows. Against certain characters, it's a good counter-attack, but it has so many
problems (opponent must be on the ground, can't be Juggy, Gambit, Mags, or Tooth, fairly poor damage). There
are just so many supers that are better. Ken's got one of 'em. :)
> She's still a good character to use if you're looking to not have your
> brain shutdown automatically. She IS a skill character. There's simply
> no way a scrub can win with Rogue. It just does not happen.
That's why scrubs don't use her. :) If you can't get a quick, easy victory, they ain't interested.