Why Hate SF3?
Akuma99999
good game, but the shotos are too powerful; this I understand. But why does
everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?! I
think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can beat
any other character (with enough practice). Please let me know why you hate
(or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so disliked...
Ultima
> I really don't understand why everybody hates the SF3 series. SF3:NG is a good game, but the shotos are too powerful; this I understand.
Akuma perhaps. Ken and Ryu aren't too bad.
> But why does everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?! I think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can beat any other character (with enough practice).
Bullshit. (more below)
> Please let me know why you hate (or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so disliked...
Well, I personally don't *hate* the game, but I don't like it that much.
But I understand perfectly well why this game is so detested. Arguments
that I know n no particular order:
Character Balance - Sorry, but contrary to what you believe, the balance
in 2I is BAD. The to tier characters (Ibuki, Akuma, Yang and Yun) are
waaaaay better than everyone else (Sean's up there too though). Ibuki
beats a quarter of the cast with ONE freakin' button. Ryu beats Elena
and Alex with ONE button (different button each though). Elena and Hugo
get destroyed by everybody.
Lame character designs - The SF3 series has some of the blandest, most
uninspired character designs Capcom has ever done. Third Strike
continues in this series tradition of being a side-show freak parade.
Parries - They were toned down somewhat in 2I, but they're still abusive
as hell. It's all about parrying your opponent's attacks so you can
chain into super (or just super out-right). This reduces the game to
random pokes (no patterns of any kind, since using a pattern means you
get parried), hoping to parry into super. Boring as HELL...
Those are the major arguments, I believe. Someone else will fill in what
I've forgotten to mention (or correct me if I've said anything wrong). I
personally just find the game boring, but I can go back and play it
occasionally. It's okay at the lower intermediate level, but any higher
than that, and it's a poke n' parry dull-ass mess.... >:(
--
Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade
MCTek
1) taunts : finally, you can taunt more than once gosh darn it.
2) hyper jump : pretty cool I guess
that's it, I hate pretty much everything else.
actually about the bland character design part...I don't expect Capcom to
create any exciting new characters, EVER. So I'm not as sore on that point
as most people.
another thing, hurriken kicks in SF3 series sure looks retarded.
-MCTek
Onaje Everett
akuma...@aol.com (Akuma99999) wrote:
> I really don't understand why everybody hates the SF3 series. SF3:NG is a
> good game, but the shotos are too powerful; this I understand.
Hah! No, you don't. Ken may be over-powered and he may be super easy to win
with when you first get the game, but once people start learning how to really
play Ibuki and Yun/Yang, Ryu and Ken don't stand a chance. THEN, throw Tengu
Stone Oro in there. The Shotos do NOT rule that game.
> But why does
> everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?! I
> think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can beat
> any other character (with enough practice). Please let me know why you hate
> (or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so disliked...
It's been done to death! Haven't you been reading posts? *sigh*
Go to DejaNews and look up the old posts. It's been explained over and over
and over and over and over.
I'll only say this: When a game is dominated by a defensive technique
(parrying), it makes the game BORING. That's simple enough to understand,
isn't it?
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Philippians 4:13
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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2 The Limit
KOF'94 had something like that (the dodge). Fortunately SNK was wise
enough to do away with that from KOF'96 onward.
Let's hope Capcom does away with Parries in SF3:3S. Once you put
two players at the machine who have the Parrying technique licked,
you're in for a snoozefest. Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry...zzzzz. When
Capcom added Parries to "THREE" they were tampering with something
that shouldn't have been messed with.
ShinChojin
>everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?!
heh, i thought i was the only one! and yes, i am serious. i will defend Three
to no end. third strike will be the greatest SF of all time, unless capcom
changes too many things...
chojin
ShinChojin
>in 2I is BAD. The to tier characters (Ibuki, Akuma, Yang and Yun) are
>waaaaay better than everyone else (Sean's up there too though).
not even close! i have never met a yun that could touch my sean, and i have
played some of the very best (i even live with one of them). i have also beaten
some of the best yang's out there with necro! this game is very, VERY balanced,
you just have to know how to deal with each individual character...
that is all.
chojin
Onaje Everett
x2the...@nojunk.com (2 The Limit) wrote:
> Parrying does stink indeed.
>
> KOF'94 had something like that (the dodge). Fortunately SNK was wise
> enough to do away with that from KOF'96 onward.
Actually, I don't think dodging fits in this category. I mean, you could
dodge an attack, but it's not like you could dodge a jump attack all day with
no penalty. In fact, if you dodge, you can still be thrown...and you can't
do anything about it unless you're playing KoF'95, where dodge attacks made
that game a little bit turtlish....until you learned how to dodge attack the
dodge attacks. :)
KoF'94 had dodges down pat....including the dodge attacks which were
ANTICIPATORY moves. Hello Capcom!!!!! Anyone there?!
> Let's hope Capcom does away with Parries in SF3:3S. Once you put
> two players at the machine who have the Parrying technique licked,
> you're in for a snoozefest. Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry...zzzzz. When
> Capcom added Parries to "THREE" they were tampering with something
> that shouldn't have been messed with.
Nah...they just did it wrong. No animation = no risk. If they made it a
motion and animated that motion EVERY TIME it was done and then specialized
the parries into reversal-type moves (ala Tekken 3) while making low parries
a bit harder to get a reward out of while leaving them the same, they'd be
good. Tekken 3 did a good job of this, IMHO.
kayin/ka khiong kwok
Akuma99999 wrote in message <19990222051505...@ng13.aol.com>...
> I really don't understand why everybody hates the SF3 series. SF3:NG is
a
>good game, but the shotos are too powerful; this I understand.
Actually, only Ken is powered. Ryu's actually quite average. Even then, Ken
doesn't stand much of a chance against a pixie, or even an Alex with a stun
gunner.
>But why does everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best
SF ever?! I
>think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can
beat
>any other character (with enough practice). Please let me know why you
hate
>(or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so
disliked...
Why people hate have been ranted on about heaps of times. Mainly, it's just
the parrying that's causing the most grief. You just get the situation where
you've got two guys parrying like mad, so you end up with a snooze fest.
That problem isn't such a big deal here because mainly people don't have
much truck to do with it. :')
Cheers,
Ka.
=== Four words why Alien civilisations will never make contact with us...
===
"Are we there yet?"
CHRISMUTT
>>in 2I is BAD.
>not even close! i have never met a yun that could touch my sean, and i have
>played some of the very best (i even live with one of them). i have also
>beaten
>some of the best yang's out there with necro! this game is very, VERY
>balanced,
>you just have to know how to deal with each individual character...
>
>that is all.
>chojin
hear, hear. bravo.
that's exactly how many of the guys here in houston feel as well. 2nd impact is
a very good game. sure, parries and damage ratios pose a bit of a problem, but
overall i think you've hit it right on the nose. the character balance is not
THAT bad. do i think akuma is too strong? yes. but other than him, i think the
other characters balances are based on matchups. some characters just have more
advantages and disadvantages against others. all sf games have been this way.
we've got guys here as well who are very good with characters other than ibuki,
akuma, yun, or yang. as a matter of fact one player here can challenge and
defeat even the best players with hugo and elena.
chojin is right, it's all about learning all of the different characters
strengths and weaknesses, then applying them.
am i saying the game is completely balanced? nope. but which game was?
peace
sol t kim
>two players at the machine who have the Parrying technique licked,
>you're in for a snoozefest. Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry...zzzzz. When
too late. it's there. seemly doesn't take off super meter either.
--
JB Gainz
Ka wrote:
>Actually, only Ken is powered. Ryu's actually quite average.
>Mainly, it's just
>the parrying that's causing the most grief. You just get the situation where
>you've got two guys parrying like mad, so you end up with a snooze fest.
>That problem isn't such a big deal here because mainly people don't have
>much truck to do with it. :')
I have found people to complain about timing on parries. They claim to time a
parry is too hard, but I have never found myself trying to parry and ending up
walking into a fireball. We got those who can't parry, and those who parry too
much.... I guess I would fall under to the too much catagory if I was placed.
JB GAINZ
JB Gainz
>while making low parries
>a bit harder to get a reward out of while leaving them the same, they'd be
>good. Tekken 3 did a good job of this, IMHO.
>
I have heard so many complaints about parries being cheap in Tekken, yet I
doubt people actually use them. Most big attacks turn parries useless, because
they have a large range.. some 180 degrees infront of them. Though, parries
are good if well timed on charge attacks or super punches/kicks. I rarely use
parries, because they are not dependable. Namco did a gread job with
parries... by not making them cheap at all.
JB GAINZ
JB Gainz
>>>in 2I is BAD.
>
>>not even close! i have never met a yun that could touch my sean, and i have
>>played some of the very best (i even live with one of them)
Character balance does not mean every character can beat every other character
with equal effort. That is impossible! Sean just may be an anti-Yan
character. Kinda how Ibuki is an anti--shoto player. Characters were made to
have an advantage over certain types of other players. Character balance means
that the difference between characters winning streaks is not very different.
I am sure SF3:2I is balanced, because Capcom has been working on SF games for
years and know how to balance out fighters by now.
I have mad struggle beating a Ryu players with my Sean, but every once in a
while I manage.
... damn fireball scrubs.
JB GAINZ
kayin/ka khiong kwok
>I have found Ryu to be better than Ken. Supers make all the difference.
In terms of power, I think it's Ken, but that's just my opinion.
kayin/ka khiong kwok
JB Gainz wrote in message <19990223015740...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
>I have found Ryu to be better than Ken. Supers make all the difference.
As I've said, as power goes I think Ken is a bit more powerful then Ryu, but
I personally prefer Ryu over Ken. Ryu's more fun.
>I have found people to complain about timing on parries. They claim to
time a
>parry is too hard, but I have never found myself trying to parry and ending
up
>walking into a fireball. We got those who can't parry, and those who parry
too
>much.... I guess I would fall under to the too much catagory if I was
placed.
I'm roughly in the middle. I parry only when I have to, and that's mainly
when I'm in the air.
Cheers,
Ka.
=== A suggestion to future medical students... ===
A cure-all headache tablet for women. :')
Infinity
>(parrying), it makes the game BORING. That's simple enough to understand,
>isn't it?
>
YES! This thread should've stopped right here. 'Nuff said, Fin, Asta La
Vista Baby! Parrying is just a good idea gone bad!
P.S. Super-Canceling sucks too!
IceiKlez
> In article <19990222051505...@ng13.aol.com>,
> akuma...@aol.com (Akuma99999) wrote:
> > I really don't understand why everybody hates the SF3 series. SF3:NG is a
> > good game, but the shotos are too powerful; this I understand.
Yeah yeah the game is fine. It does'nt matter who is overpowered becoz I can
still beat Ken,Ryu, Yun/Yang/ and Ibuki and I do all of it with either Alex or
Sean. And I use Oro.
> Hah! No, you don't. Ken may be over-powered and he may be super easy to win
> with when you first get the game, but once people start learning how to really
> play Ibuki and Yun/Yang, Ryu and Ken don't stand a chance. THEN, throw Tengu
> Stone Oro in there. The Shotos do NOT rule that game.
Are U scared of those characters?
> > But why does
> > everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?! I
> > think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can
beat
> > any other character (with enough practice). Please let me know why you hate
> > (or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so
disliked...
Some PPL like the game and then those who always need to find something wrong
with every CAPCOM game hate it. Everybody complains about Parries. Shit I
hate Blocks you don't see me coming in here saying that they should take out
blocks. And saying oh my god this game sucks becoz U can block. [Blocking is
Defense why do ya Still like blocks?] So Akuma99999 if U like it don't let
these PPL change your mind or you will juz end up on the long list of
alt.games.sf2 Dick riders
> Onaje Everett--> One of those with Issues!
Can I know?
Shady Prodigy!
JB Gainz
tones done the damage during super cancels, but SFEX games do super cancels
with style. There is actually timing involved if you want to get the most hits
out of the supers. You have to wait as late as possible or hit the next super
at the right time to connect (too complicated to explain in a short paragrah),
which adds in an element of skill. I you don't get all your hits in then your
level 3 super cancel takes off as much damage as 1 and half supers. Also, they
tone down damage during super cancels you can't super cancel someone to death
from the beginning of the match... though some can take you down to only 25%
left. Super cancels are fun I think.
LazyJae
LazyJae
ShinChojin
Akuma99999
ShadyProdigy
are there more?
Onaje Everett
IceiKlez <ShadyP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> > In article <19990222051505...@ng13.aol.com>,
> > akuma...@aol.com (Akuma99999) wrote:
>
> > Hah! No, you don't. Ken may be over-powered and he may be super easy to
win
> > with when you first get the game, but once people start learning how to
really
> > play Ibuki and Yun/Yang, Ryu and Ken don't stand a chance. THEN, throw
Tengu
> > Stone Oro in there. The Shotos do NOT rule that game.
>
> Are U scared of those characters?
Is this the best you can do? You're wack.
No...I'm not scared of those characters. In fact, I like playing against and
with all of those characters. I play EVERYONE in SF3:NG. Now what?
> > > But why does
> > > everybody hate 2nd Impact, the game I consider to be the best SF ever?! I
> > > think that this game has exceptional character balance; any character can
> beat
> > > any other character (with enough practice). Please let me know why you
hate
> > > (or don't hate) this game. I'm eager to hear why this game is so
> disliked...
>
> Some PPL like the game and then those who always need to find something wrong
> with every CAPCOM game hate it. Everybody complains about Parries. Shit I
> hate Blocks you don't see me coming in here saying that they should take out
> blocks. And saying oh my god this game sucks becoz U can block. [Blocking is
> Defense why do ya Still like blocks?]
Er...cause it MAKES SENSE?!
You are pathetically dense. I'm getting way too blunt with you, but it's
true. You...are...dense! Blocking doesn't lead to huge combos without
leaving you open. THAT is why it's fair. You take a risk by blocking
because you can still be hit by overheads (when you block low), low attacks
(when you block high), and throws (if you block at all). To successfully
parry an attack, however, requires MUCH more skill in real life. This game
is somewhat based on reality, remember? When's the last time you were to
parry 100% of all attacks thrown at you? It would never happen. Your hand
doesn't automatically appear in front of an attack and successfully parry it.
It takes anticipation. Furthermore, it requires that you move your hand
BEFORE the attack gets there. Therefore, it requires an ANIMATION. Funny, in
the Three series, parries are only animated if they're successful. That is
just plain wrong. You take a risk when you parry an attack in real life. In
the Three series, there's virtually no risk, yet you're still able to combo
the snot out of your opponent. The risk/reward balance is screwed there. If
you don't have balanced risk and reward, you have a game that will be either
too easy or too hard to play at certain levels of play.
I hope you understood that because I'm not trying to repeat myself.
> So Akuma99999 if U like it don't let
> these PPL change your mind or you will juz end up on the long list of
> alt.games.sf2 Dick riders
You can like the game all you want, but give me facts over ignorance, anyday.
> > Onaje Everett--> One of those with Issues!
Substitute the word "issues" with "facts" and I'll agree.
You just wait until I start designing games. You'll learn exactly what risk
and reward and skill are all about. You'll probably get destroyed by every
good player that plays, too....as you should. My games will be about skill,
not chance. You will have to EARN your damage.
You just wait and see.
> Can I know?
Can you use DejaNews to do something other than waste bandwidth? Go back and
read my posts. You have a lot to learn before you tango with me.
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Philippians 4:13
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Myva14
Please come to ECC 4 so you can get spanked and then maybe you will stop
posting. Your posting has made this normally noisy newsgroup even less useful.
Don't bother responding with your lame ass "dude PPL like it 4 dis reason"
babble, because I will be waiting at ECC4 for you.
-------------------------------------
Well, I am stuck using an
AOL account until I can
buy a new computer....
bleah.
gos...@hotmail.com
-----------------------------------
CHRISMUTT
chrismutt
aross1
i know many more, but i can't speak for them.
WhoaMoses
>>
>>LazyJae
>>ShinChojin
>>Akuma99999
>>ShadyProdigy
>>are there more?
Nope, only 3. LazyJae and Shady Prodigy are the same person.
CHRISMUTT
>>
>>LazyJae
>>ShinChojin
>>Akuma99999
>>ShadyProdigy
>>are there more?
>
>aross1
>
>i know many more, but i can't speak for them.
btw, i don't think it's a sin to like the game. i concede that the game has
some flaws in it that need tweaking, but i still like the game nonetheless.
WhoaMoses
>some flaws in it that need tweaking, but i still like the game nonetheless.
No prob dude. You sound like you're an intelligent person. Personally, I like
the game too, cuz nobody around here is smart enuff to abuse the parry except
for me and my friend. So sue me!
Onaje Everett
They are the scrubbiest gameplay element ever to show it's ugly face in a
fighting game...not to mention that they don't make sense.
> I mean, I doubt the Versus games
> tones done the damage during super cancels,
If you're talking about the XvSF EX, I really don't care. I won't be playing
that game. :)
> but SFEX games do super cancels
> with style. There is actually timing involved if you want to get the most
hits
> out of the supers. You have to wait as late as possible or hit the next super
> at the right time to connect (too complicated to explain in a short paragrah),
> which adds in an element of skill.
C'mon man...it's called timing, not just "an element of skill". There's a
small problem with your justification, though.....how much time do you get to
think about it? You get TONS of time, just like with chain combos, which is
why those aren't liked that much, either (even though those DO make sense).
You get a big chunk of time to figure out if your super is hitting and if it
isn't, you can often divert into something safe (like a safe super or a guard
cancel or excel combo, the last two being in EX2). Can you say "no risk but
plenty of reward"?
Sure, I still play EX...but I know full well that at higher levels of play,
one mistake costs you 50%-75% of your life....with very little risk involved.
Sure, super-cancels are stylish. They look good. But, they take VERY
LITTLE skill to do. Do you know how many 3 super combos I used to mash out
in EX? I did it for so long with no timing and still got most of the hits on
each super to connect before cancelling it...and then juggling afterward for
extra damage if I could.
The only characters that truly take skill to super cancel with are charge
characters. Hmmm...I guess THAT'S why I usually play Guile...besides his
TZW-esque combos. :) I pretty much play everyone except Dhalsim....preferably
Hayate, Hokuto, Guile, and Ken. Hayate and Hokuto are definitely skill
characters.
BTW, it'd be nice if you tried to explain things fully, rather than limiting
yourself to a paragraph. This way, we can better know how you think.
> I you don't get all your hits in then your
> level 3 super cancel takes off as much damage as 1 and half supers.
Yeah...and how lacking on timing do you have to be for that to happen? You
either have to be a newbie or a scrub, both of which wouldn't be thinking
beyond getting the super to hit.
> Also,
> they
> tone down damage during super cancels you can't super cancel someone to death
> from the beginning of the match... though some can take you down to only 25%
> left.
Ummm....wait...don't supers average 25% damage? No, super cancels in EX DO
NOT have damage scaling. All of the supers you do in one combo do FULL
DAMAGE.
>Super cancels are fun I think.
I know you think that, but why? Is it because they look good or because
they're so easy to do? Think about that.
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> Why do people hate super cancels so much?
Doh! I didn't talk about super cancels in the Three series!!
Super cancelling in SF3:NG and SF3:2I is also quite scrubby. Why?
Well...anyone ever super-cancelled into a Shin-Shoryuken? It's one thing to
combo into it from a normal move, but to do something like jumping fierce,
close forward XX fierce Shoryuken XX Shin-Shoryuken is not only absurd, but
that combo does WAY too much damage. I mean, if you just look at the fierce
Shoryuken to Shin-Shoryuken part.....what's Ryu doing? Double-clutching his
Shoryuken? I don't think so. If he was, there's no way the DP would do full
damage and also no way that the Shin-Shoryuken would do 80% of full damage.
I'm talking from a physics standpoint, BTW. If you know how moves flow
together in real life, then you know what I'm talking about.
From a gameplay standpoint, it just ain't fair. Super cancels just make it
easy for the average player whose manual dexterity is lacking to do damage
like the pros. It doesn't take much manual dexterity to super cancel from,
say, Ken's Hadouken to Shippu Jinrai Kyaku. All you need is one more
quater-circle motion and you have a super. You may as well be playing MSF
and skipping the Hadouken. It's free added damage for landing a simple combo.
No risk....plenty of reward.
Now, if super cancelling didn't store the motion of the special move that
you're cancelling from, things might be a tad more fair, but it'd still be no
different than chaining into a super....which is also too easy to do and why
people don't like Alpha 1 that much.
Kid Vid
Onaje Everett (FreshOJ) wrote in message <7b3rra$vo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Shoryuken to Shin-Shoryuken part.....what's Ryu doing? Double-clutching his
>Shoryuken? I don't think so. If he was, there's no way the DP would do
full
Perhaps he could use his left hand for a weak shoryuken and his right for
the big dog...
I remember seeing this type of action all the time when I was up close with
Ryu and did a standing fierce dp 2in1.
"Fell how weak you truly are!" -Kid Vid
Onaje Everett
Just felt the need to clear up something:
I don't hate the game, altogether. I only hate it at it's higher levels of
play when people do nothing but stand there trying to parry stuff.
You see, as a fanatic of combos, I LIKE OFFENSE!!! I am a berserker when it
comes to fighting games. The best defense is a smothering, blistering,
pressuring offense, IMHO. After all, it's like my theory for success in
side-scrolling beat 'em ups that use special moves.
Use combos....because if it's dead, it can't hit you back. :)
kayin/ka khiong kwok
JB Gainz wrote in message <19990224023152...@ng156.aol.com>...
>Why do people hate super cancels so much? I mean, I doubt the Versus games
>tones done the damage during super cancels, but SFEX games do super cancels
>with style.
True. I don't have much problems with super cancelling. I guess it just
ruins the game a tad cause it makes things a tad predictable.
kayin/ka khiong kwok
but it's by no means the worst.
Cheers,
Ka.
=== A suggestion to future medical students... ===
A cure-all headache tablet for women. :')
LazyJae wrote in message <19990224082225...@ng30.aol.com>...
Onaje Everett
See...that's a different thing. You're interrupting a NORMAL attack. Plus,
that combo flows perfectly, from a visual standpoint. I have absolutely no
problem with a combo that REQUIRES manual dexterity (well...some...Three
combos are kinda easy).
Close fierce, Shin-Shoryuken is my fav combo in the Three series.
No..wait...here's my favorite combo. :)
Jump fierce, close fierce XX Shin...SHORYUKEN!!!....(land) super jump strong
(2hit), (land and dash) close forward XX fierce Shoryuken. (80% damage, IIRC)
His Touch of Death combo from SF3:NG. Yes, it DIZZIED!
JB Gainz
>C'mon man...it's called timing, not just "an element of skill". There's a
>small problem with your justification, though.....how much time do you get to
>think about it? You get TONS of
>time
Tons of time to think during a combo.... hmmm. I am guessing you mean tons of
nano seconds. Yeah.. you seem to know what you are talking about *sarcasm*.
>Ummm....wait...don't supers average 25% damage? No, super cancels in EX DO
>NOT have damage scaling. All of the supers you do in one combo do FULL
>DAMAGE.
You really cannot say how much a super does in EX, because different arcades
change the damage ratios. The EX machine I first played on has supers at about
30%... level 3 super cancels performed by the computer did an avearage of 75%
damage.
LOL.. where do you get this stuff? Scaling IS present in the game.. I know it
because I own SFEX+Alpha. The later you cancel into the next super.. the more
damage you get. Example: Chunli supers in her kicking combo for a few good
hits... it is possible to wait just before the last hit to get a good super
cancel of her Giant Kikoken.. or you can play it safe and super cancel as soon
as she starts in the kicking combo for less hits. Hypothetically lets say EX
did not have scaling (which it does) the timing elements forces a player to
think before performing supers cancels, so the game would not be so cheap as to
allow 90% damage by just performing 3 mindless double fireball motions in a
row.
I don't write long posts because I doubt people enjoy reading reading someone's
venting in the form of long paragraphs of video game rubbage.
You posts are way too long.. I got board and just scrolled to the bottom to see
your point... Short and sweet.... my friend.. short and sweet.
JB GAINZ
Viscant
>>C'mon man...it's called timing, not just "an element of skill". There's a
>>small problem with your justification, though.....how much time do you get
>to
>>think about it? You get TONS of
>>time
>
>Tons of time to think during a combo.... hmmm. I am guessing you mean tons
>of
>nano seconds. Yeah.. you seem to know what you are talking about *sarcasm*.
JB...don't argue with Onaje. He knows exactly what he's talking about. See,
to QUALITY players, during combos, you have plenty of time to think.
>I don't write long posts because I doubt people enjoy reading reading
>someone's
>venting in the form of long paragraphs of video game rubbage.
>
>You posts are way too long.. I got board and just scrolled to the bottom to
>see
>your point... Short and sweet.... my friend.. short and sweet.
>
Onaje outlines his points, he walks you through them step, by painstaking step,
destroying your arguments and fallacies, then tells you what's correct, and
you--and other certain scrubs I've had to read too much from lately--just say,
"oh that's too long for me to read." But you still have time for stupid posts
like this. Sad...
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"Kill me..."
JB Gainz
I thought you quit the petty rivalry... sigh.. it never ends.
I noticed you did not respond to my arguement... because I distroyed that
other guy's easily.. he did not know what he was talking about.
Atsuko "Nuku" Natsume
> Tons of time to think during a combo.... hmmm. I am guessing you mean tons of
> nano seconds. Yeah.. you seem to know what you are talking about *sarcasm*.
Actually, if you are allowed chain combos or super cancels like in EX or SF3, you
actually have plenty of time to pull them off. If you can't do it with a little
practice, then I think you must have below-average manual dexterity... Most scrubs
can do that sort of thing (just look at any Vs. game and the people standing around
it). Heck, most of the time they can do it by ACCIDENT...
> You really cannot say how much a super does in EX, because different arcades
> change the damage ratios. The EX machine I first played on has supers at about
> 30%... level 3 super cancels performed by the computer did an avearage of 75%
> damage.
> LOL.. where do you get this stuff? Scaling IS present in the game.. I know it
> because I own SFEX+Alpha. The later you cancel into the next super.. the more
> damage you get. Example: Chunli supers in her kicking combo for a few good
> hits... it is possible to wait just before the last hit to get a good super
> cancel of her Giant Kikoken.. or you can play it safe and super cancel as soon
> as she starts in the kicking combo for less hits. Hypothetically lets say EX
> did not have scaling (which it does) the timing elements forces a player to
> think before performing supers cancels, so the game would not be so cheap as to
> allow 90% damage by just performing 3 mindless double fireball motions in a
> row.
Ok... here's the deal. Scaling only exists in a few forms. In the EX games, there
is no *real* scaling, but just the timing of the hits. Let's say (for example) Chun
Li's kick super does 10 hits (roundhouse 1, roundhouse 2, 8 lightning kicks). The
damage breakdown would be something like:
30% total
7% roundhouse 1
7% roundhouse 2
2% each lightning kick
Thus if you cancelled after the fifth kick, you would do 24% (7 + 7 + 5(2)). Is
this what you'd call scaling?
Still, if the last hit of a super combo is the most damaging (like C.Jack's rushing
punches, I believe) and you super-cancel, you forgo that damage.
> I don't write long posts because I doubt people enjoy reading reading someone's
> venting in the form of long paragraphs of video game rubbage.
You also show yourself to have a very small attention span. Either that or you
don't understand that most papers and conversations are longer than a children's
book...
> You posts are way too long.. I got board and just scrolled to the bottom to see
> your point... Short and sweet.... my friend.. short and sweet.
>
> JB GAINZ
There is something to be said for conciseness, but you still need sufficient
evidence to support any claim you make. If you don't back up anything you say, it's
just an opinion.
Viscant
>To Viscant
>
>I thought you quit the petty rivalry... sigh.. it never ends.
You think I have a rivalry with you? Heh. A rivalry is when two people of
approximately equal skill in something--usually; one sided fights are not
really rivalries. Like UCLA v. SC? Not a rivalry anymore. Just a
beatdown--fight constantly. Ken v. Ryu. That's a rivalry. You are a scrub
who has no idea what he's talking about or who he's talking to. You can talk
shit to me all you want, because in a lot of games I really am not on the level
where I should be saying much about the game in. Like, have you ever seen me
open my mouth about any game in the EX series? Nope. I know better than that.
In fact, in most games besides A3--borderline here. Let's look at where I put
Dhalsim in my initial rankings...ick...25 out of 25 was it? Oh god...--2i and
Marvel, I really shouldn't be opening my mouth.
>
>I noticed you did not respond to my arguement... because I distroyed that
>other guy's easily.. he did not know what he was talking about.
Uh...Onaje really does know what he's talking about. C'mon! He's the combo
master! The guy that knows stuff! (Can't remember anything else cool from
that long sig of the past.) The only part I read in your very small post with
no room for argument in was you making an offhanded "sarcastic" remark about
only having nanoseconds.
And BTW you can react to things during a combo. I remember somewhere--from
James Chen, IIRC--that during a chain combo, the average person can really
react in 2 jabs. (And in a quick game like Marvel that's about 1/2 a second,
I'm thinking, right off the top of my head.) That's average. Not average
among people who know their stuff. Just average. I know that over the years
as games have gotten much quicker, all of our reaction times have gotten a lot
quicker. Just for fun, I think we all should take a sec and play SSF2 just to
see what we can react to. (If you have nowhere to go for the five to ten
minutes it takes Dhalsim to flop down from his jump in. =])
But anyways, JB, if you're saying that you can't react to things quick
enough...oh well! I'm sorry. But at least now you are coming to grips with
the fact that you're a scrub. Hey, don't worry about it. I came to that
realization back in A2. I got better, at least to a halfway acceptable level
where I can at least beat good players and give great ones a run for their
money every now and then. Getting over SF scrubbiness is a 12-step process.
First, you gotta admit you have a problem. =)
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"Hi, my name is Jay. And I was an SF scrub."
Chocobo
> Onaje wrote:
>
> >Ummm....wait...don't supers average 25% damage? No, super cancels in EX DO
> >NOT have damage scaling. All of the supers you do in one combo do FULL
> >DAMAGE.
>
> You really cannot say how much a super does in EX, because different arcades
> change the damage ratios. The EX machine I first played on has supers at about
> 30%... level 3 super cancels performed by the computer did an avearage of 75%
> damage.
Who cares about the specific percentage... the point was that the supers do FULL
DAMAGE.
>
> LOL.. where do you get this stuff? Scaling IS present in the game.. I know it
> because I own SFEX+Alpha. The later you cancel into the next super.. the more
> damage you get.
That's because your first super is hitting more times, so you get more damage,
isn't that obvious to you? so um... what's that have to do with damage scaling
again? NOTHING. Do YOU even know what you're talking about?
> Hypothetically lets say EX
> did not have scaling (which it does) the timing elements forces a player to
> think before performing supers cancels, so the game would not be so cheap as to
> allow 90% damage by just performing 3 mindless double fireball motions in a
> row.
What the hell does this sentence mean? What does damage scaling have to do with
"timing elements", what do "timing elements" have to do with thinking before
supercancels (they take NO thinking), and what's that have to do with a game
allowing a simple 90% damage combo?
> Short and sweet.... my friend.. short and sweet.
I'd prefer if you took a little more time and explained your thoughts in clearer
English.
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> Onaje wrote:
>
> >C'mon man...it's called timing, not just "an element of skill". There's a
> >small problem with your justification, though.....how much time do you get to
> >think about it? You get TONS of
> >time
>
> nano seconds. Yeah.. you seem to know what you are talking about *sarcasm*.
1 one-billionth of a second? You're joking, right? Ask yourself: How long
does it take to do this Guile combo: Jumping fierce, crouching strong,
crouching short XX fierce Sonic Boom XX Opening Gambit.
It takes around a whole 5 seconds for this combo to complete. Now, you're
telling me that you can't tell whether the combo is hitting or not within that
time? JB, you just totally humiliated yourself. Go read James Chen's MSH
Combo FAQ and see what he says about attack detection. The AVERAGE person can
tell that their combo is hitting by the third hit. If you can't do that, then
you must be below average. Amazing how I keep proving this stuff, ain't it?
Logic works, man. There's no counter for it.
> >Ummm....wait...don't supers average 25% damage? No, super cancels in EX DO
> >NOT have damage scaling. All of the supers you do in one combo do FULL
> >DAMAGE.
>
> You really cannot say how much a super does in EX, because different arcades
> change the damage ratios.
That's not an acceptable answer. Whether the damage settings are on one
level or another, the average is going to be what's looked at. So, if the
machine is set at level 4 out of 8, which is usually is in most arcades, the
supers are going to do an average of 25%, excluding Level 3 supers.
> The EX machine I first played on has supers at about
> 30%... level 3 super cancels performed by the computer did an avearage of 75%
> damage.
What about level 3 super cancels done by the player?
Either way, does it make sense to you that you lose 3/4 of your life to a
technique that gives you plenty of time during it to decide? I would be more
accepting of a move that makes you commit to it the instant you pull it off.
It's called "taking a risk".
> LOL.. where do you get this stuff? Scaling IS present in the game.. I know
it
> because I own SFEX+Alpha. The later you cancel into the next super.. the
more
> damage you get.
You don't know what damage scaling is. Again, go read James Chen's MSH Combo
FAQ. Damage scaling is when each successive hit takes off LESS damage. For
example, in Marvel Super Heroes, the damage ratio per move in a combo went
something like this: (1/# of hit in combo). That means that the first hit
does full damage, the second hit does one half of normal damage, the third
does one third normal damage, etc. Again, I'm not sure of the exact
equation...I could figure it out if I took the time...but that's what damage
scaling is. I hope your paying attention because this is stuff most people
(in the arcades) don't know. The newsgroup knows this kind of stuff.
> Example: Chunli supers in her kicking combo for a few good
> hits... it is possible to wait just before the last hit to get a good super
> cancel of her Giant Kikoken.. or you can play it safe and super cancel as soon
> as she starts in the kicking combo for less hits.
EXACTLY!! And how much time do you get to decide all of this?! That's
exactly my point. There's no risk involved in this process because of the
over- abundance of time you get in deciding whether you going to cancel into
a safe super or go for maximum damage. In fact, the longer you wait, the
more damage you get. There's much more incentive to wait until the last hit
than to cut it short. Either way, Chun's not going to get hit back.
> Hypothetically lets say EX
> did not have scaling (which it does)
"Which it does not", you mean. Know the definition of a term, before you use
it.
> the timing elements forces a player to
> think before performing supers cancels, so the game would not be so cheap as
to
> allow 90% damage by just performing 3 mindless double fireball motions in a
> row.
No..just 75%...which is still fair. :P
> I don't write long posts because I doubt people enjoy reading reading
someone's
> venting in the form of long paragraphs of video game rubbage.
You don't like learning then. Only the foolish reject knowledge. If you
didn't come here to learn, then what are you here for?
> You posts are way too long.. I got board and just scrolled to the bottom to
see
> your point... Short and sweet.... my friend.. short and sweet.
Short and sweet doesn't work with you. That's the problem. You're not
grasping the BASIC elements of this argument, so I have to break it down to
you like you're eight years old.
Now...I can read all of your posts and refute them point by point. Why can't
you do that with mine? If you can't do that with my posts, don't read
them...and definitely don't respond. If you don't want to HAVE to deal with
me, try posting correct information. Who knows? If your information is
useful, you just might get a pat on the back from me and others on the
newsgroup.
I do all of the above because information is to be shared, not kept to one's
self. I also do it to reveal truth and help others to improve, which is what
you should be doing as you read this. This information will help you improve,
but only if you apply it.
Knowing is half the battle, after all. :)
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> To Viscant
>
> I thought you quit the petty rivalry... sigh.. it never ends.
>
> other guy's easily.. he did not know what he was talking about.
Do the words, "Onaje knows what he's talking about?" mean anything to you?
To me, it would seem to say that Viscant was agreeing with me. Therefore, if
you read what I said again, that'd be just like Viscant saying what he had to
say....because he would've said the same basic thing.
Your logic manipulating skills are throughly through. They're just plain
JACKED. It's like you don't have any. That's sad, honestly.
What'll be even more sad is if you try to reply and deny this...because I'll
have to prove you wrong AGAIN.
The wise know when to walk away...and when to run.
Onaje Everett
vis...@aol.com (Viscant) wrote:
>
>
> But anyways, JB, if you're saying that you can't react to things quick
> enough...oh well! I'm sorry. But at least now you are coming to grips with
> the fact that you're a scrub. Hey, don't worry about it. I came to that
> realization back in A2. I got better, at least to a halfway acceptable level
> where I can at least beat good players and give great ones a run for their
> money every now and then. Getting over SF scrubbiness is a 12-step process.
> First, you gotta admit you have a problem. =)
I'm trying really hard not to laugh out loud in this lab. Whew! :)
You're absolutely right, though. That's how it was with me and my early days
on this newsgroup. Once I admitted I was a scrub, I became better. When I
became a combo-master (or maybe just a fanatic), I improved even faster...and
had WAY more fun, too! :)
Shaunlar
Most of the talk was about EX1, but EX2 does have scaling damage. If you want
to check it out yourself, try Kairi's:
Jump in fierce, low forward, qcb roundhouse (pause), back+roundhouse (x2)
(sc) qcfx2+p (s. air fireball)
(sc) qcfx2+k (s. air divekick)
(sc) qcfx2+p (s. air fireball)
Notice that the final attack does about as much damage as a fierce punch, and
certainly less than the first s. air fireball. Total damage is about 60%, but
how many good players fall for a fierce jump-in? One thing I like about EX2 is
that jumping in is almost always a risk since there's no air-blocking. You
really have to work at getting 'in' on your opponent.
The same scaling damage rule holds true for every character who uses all 3
supers in a combo. Using three supers for this kind of damage, when tweaked
properly in a game, isn't much different than performing one super (i.e.
X-Dhalsim) for a ton of damage. You're simply adding more motions, the effect
(damage wise) is the same.
Also, I don't see how having "a ton of time to think" factors in to the
validity of a game's fighting engine. I'll again bring up Tekken, which most
people argue to be a deep title, as a game that has a ton of "thinking points"
before one needs to decide to continue a combo. They range from Heihachi/Jin's
'left punch,left punch (did they hit?), right punch' delayable combo, to Law's
'low punch counter (see if it hits) then add another 5 or 6 hits for a ton of
damage' combo. This, and many others, is an example of a low-risk, high-reward
element in this title, but the game is still considered great by many (myself
included). Heck, after launching someone in the air (i.e. Yoshi or Lei's
double kick pop-up attacks), you have a good deal of time to decide WHICH
punishing combo to use.
The same goes for 'difficulty of execution' being a necessary skill in a a good
fighting title when it comes to performing moves/combos. 95% of the combos in
Tekken are a cinch to perform (the fun is finding new ones!).
Knowing how to set 'em up properly is where the real work is. Whether the play
mechanics are easy or difficult to absorb, the only things worth evaluating at
the end of the day is the strength of its mental game, and is it fun doing so.
Once you and the other guy know the rules of a title, the only thing left is
the mind tricks you play on your opponent. EX2 is a fine title (in my
opinion), and super cancelling actually adds a new mental element to the game.
Say Skullomania slides in to Kairi and is blocked. He may s. cancel it at the
last second into a Superslide as a wakeup attack. In EX2, if this is blocked
it does no chip damage, but the smart Kairi might jump up instead to be in good
position to counter attack. However, Skullo may have anticipated this and
turned on his Supershield to catch him on their way down. Kairi, who planned
to play it safe anyway, executes an Super Air Fireball to protect his decent.
See? It's all a mind game once the rules are understood.
I can understand how someone still may not like it, everyone has their own
likes and dislikes. And yes, it allows newbie players to be flashy (against
other newbies, that is), but the best players (against each other) still have
to work for their wins, believe it or not. It's not better or worse - just
different. The level of difficulty (in most cases) to achieve great things in
SFA3 is only one reason why many are attracted to it. But another game can't
be written off simply because it doesn't include it's required skill set.
Remember, we can all enjoy movie classics like 'The Godfather' and 'Aliens' for
completely different reasons =]
Shauno!
JB Gainz
>The same scaling damage rule holds true for every character who uses all 3
>supers in a combo. Using three supers for this kind of damage, when tweaked
>properly in a game, isn't much different than performing one super (i.e.
>X-Dhalsim) for a ton of damage. You're simply adding more motions, the
>effect
>(damage wise) is the same.
You are completely right. Finally someone who knows what he/she is talking
about.
>ekken, which most
>people argue to be a deep title, as a game that has a ton of "thinking
>points"
>before one needs to decide to continue a combo. They range from
>Heihachi/Jin's
>'left punch,left punch (did they hit?), right punch' delayable combo, to
>Law's
>'low punch counter (see if it hits) then add another 5 or 6 hits for a ton of
>damage' combo. This, and many others, is an example of a low-risk,
>high-reward
>element in this title, but the game is still considered great by many (myself
>included)
I feel this way too. Tekken has more time to think, to make for some
interesting gameplay. Never really can guess what a good Tekken player is
gonna do next.
>EX2 is a fine title (in my
>opinion), and super cancelling actually adds a new mental element to the
>game.
I can see what you mean by this.
>Say Skullomania slides in to Kairi and is blocked. He may s. cancel it at
>the
>last second into a Superslide as a wakeup attack. In EX2, if this is blocked
>it does no chip damage, but the smart Kairi might jump up instead to be in
>good
>position to counter attack. However, Skullo may have anticipated this and
>turned on his Supershield to catch him on their way down. Kairi, who planned
>to play it safe anyway, executes an Super Air Fireball to protect his decent.
>
>See? It's all a mind game once the rules are understood.
>
I can see this totally. Never new about this one... thanks for the info.
Obvioulsy you know what you are talking about. You have shown proof of
actually playing the game... thanks for your input.
JB GAINZ
JB Gainz
>on this newsgroup. Once I admitted I was a scrub, I became better. When I
>became a combo-master (or maybe just a fanatic), I improved even faster...and
>had WAY more fun, too! :)
>
Well, I am far from being a scrub, but anyway... you really can't be serious.
You take things way too seriously.. I think I'll stop responding to you.
Frankly your seriousness on the topic is scary... bye..bye.. you were
interesting for about 30 secs.
JB GAINZ
JB Gainz
Well, my attention span is actually pretty long. I just don't find reading
some silly posts very interesting, especially since the guy did not know what
he was talking about. Frankly he was talking out of his ass and flaming me in
between his massive paragraphs of crap. I don't want to get in an argument
with you. But you have to ammit, if you read the other guys post, he did not
know much about EX and super cancels
JB GAINZ.
Atsuko "Nuku" Natsume
JB Gainz wrote:
> To Atsuko:
>
> Well, my attention span is actually pretty long. I just don't find reading
> some silly posts very interesting, especially since the guy did not know what
> he was talking about. Frankly he was talking out of his ass and flaming me in
Actually what he said made perfect sense to me... Damage Scaling as I know it is
when various attacks do less damage as the combo progresses. The perfect example
was from X-men: CotA. If you dashed in and did a jab, short, strong, forward,
fierce with Psylocke, it actually did *less* damage than a dash-in strong,
forward, fierce. Why? Because each successive hit does 1 cumulative pixel less of
damage. *That* is damage scaling. The damage scaling you mentioned isn't the same
thing. A Kikkosho, given that all 5 hits connect, will do the same amount of
damage if it is chained at the end of a 15-hit combo as if it were thrown by
itself. That is what Onaje meant by saying there was no damage scaling in the EX
games.
> between his massive paragraphs of crap. I don't want to get in an argument
> with you. But you have to ammit, if you read the other guys post, he did not
> know much about EX and super cancels
Your definitions were different. Perhaps Ultima should write a dictionary instead
of a FAQ?
I will admit nothing, since I never said anything to begin with... what I *can*
say is that Onaje's posts (in the past) have been informative, logical and
well-supported, though I must say he isn't one to pull punches when shooting down
someone's silly misconceptions about the SF games... And so far I have seen
nothing to contradict this.
Onaje Everett
shau...@aol.com (Shaunlar) wrote:
> Just a couple of thoughts...
>
> Most of the talk was about EX1, but EX2 does have scaling damage. If you want
> to check it out yourself, try Kairi's:
> Jump in fierce, low forward, qcb roundhouse (pause), back+roundhouse (x2)
> (sc) qcfx2+p (s. air fireball)
> (sc) qcfx2+k (s. air divekick)
> (sc) qcfx2+p (s. air fireball)
>
> Notice that the final attack does about as much damage as a fierce punch, and
> certainly less than the first s. air fireball. Total damage is about 60%, but
> how many good players fall for a fierce jump-in? One thing I like about EX2
is
> that jumping in is almost always a risk since there's no air-blocking. You
> really have to work at getting 'in' on your opponent.
>
> supers in a combo. Using three supers for this kind of damage, when tweaked
> properly in a game, isn't much different than performing one super (i.e.
> X-Dhalsim) for a ton of damage. You're simply adding more motions, the effect
> (damage wise) is the same.
Damage wise, yes. But you're about to go wrong down below...
> Also, I don't see how having "a ton of time to think" factors in to the
> validity of a game's fighting engine. I'll again bring up Tekken, which most
> people argue to be a deep title, as a game that has a ton of "thinking points"
> before one needs to decide to continue a combo. They range from
Heihachi/Jin's
> 'left punch,left punch (did they hit?), right punch' delayable combo, to Law's
> 'low punch counter (see if it hits) then add another 5 or 6 hits for a ton of
> damage' combo. This, and many others, is an example of a low-risk, high-reward
> element in this title, but the game is still considered great by many (myself
> included). Heck, after launching someone in the air (i.e. Yoshi or Lei's
> double kick pop-up attacks), you have a good deal of time to decide WHICH
> punishing combo to use.
That's the best example you have? No offense, but Tekken combos are much
different from SF combos. Super cancelling is more like chaining, than
anything. So, it stands to reason that the best example would be a chain
combo (as in a string of attacks that, when the first hits, the rest can't be
blocked because they're all hitting while the opponent is in block stun). In
Tekken, I have absolutely no problem with delayable strings. Why? You can't
delay them and still be guaranteed a hit. However, let's look at both chain
combos and super-cancelling, shall we?
With both chain combos and super-cancelling, the longer the combo, the more
time you get to think about what to end it with. For example, I'll take the
Marvel series' most extreme example, Wolverine. If you jump in with
short-fierce-roundhouse, and then land and dash with standing
jab-short-strong-forward(x2).....you've spent a whole 3 seconds doing a chain
that they can't do anything about yet (short of ACing or push-blocking, but
this isn't relevant to the point). From here, you get choices. If you're
hitting them, you can do three things as an example: 1. follow with crouch
fierce XX Berserker Barrage X. 2. crouch fierce-roundhouse XX Fatal Claw 3.
Substitute the fierce Berserker Barrage for the BBX and the fierce Tornado
Claw for the Fatal Claw if you don't have meter. Now, if you opponent is
blocking, you have choices as well: 1. just cancel into a jab Berserker
Barrage and then dash at the again. 2. chain into crouch fierce-roundhouse
and then Tornado Claw if they flinch or throw if they don't. 3. cancel into
the Berserker Rage super and go at them even faster.
The point that I'm trying to make is...as that old lady used to say in the
Wendy's commercials...where's the risk? There is none! You get a ton of time
to choose which way you want to go without any fear of retaliation.
Now, let's look at super-cancelling. Let's say I choose Guile, like I
usually do, and do this combo: jump fierce, crouch strong, crouch short XX
fierce Sonic Boom XX Opening Gambit. That whole sequence takes about....2
seconds...then the Opening Gambit takes another 1.5 seconds to
complete...approximately. Now...again, like in the Marvel example....I get
choices. If I'm hitting, I go ahead and continue with the Super Sonic Boom
(I don't know if that's the oficial name...but hey...it works!) and then
finish with another Opening Gambit. If I'm not hitting, I can just cancel it
safely into an Excel combo, a Super Sonic Boom, or even try to break their
guard and give myself another chance at a combo. True, there's risk involved
there....you're using 2 levels of meter...but guess what? In both of my
examples, the AVERAGE person can tell whether or not their attacks are
hitting by the second or third attack (James Chen knows this in his MSH Combo
FAQ). That means that I can steer around even risking my super meter if I'm
paying attention. But, like in the above example, there's no risk to my life
bar.
Do you see what role 'time' plays in combos, now? If you don't get much time
to decide how to end your combo, 8 times out of 10, you'll use something
safe. Just look at any A3 match. This is why I like A3 better....you have to
COMMIT to your moves. If I'm playing Rose and I think I see an opening, I
have to decide while I jump whether or not I'm going for a simple jump
fierce, crouch fierce XX Soul Spiral (which isn't all that safe) combo or if
I'm going to cancel that crouch fierce into a Level 3 Aura Soul Throw, which
might win the round for me. It's the same for most of the characters in that
game. You don't get much time to think. You really don't get much time to
think in mid-combo. In fact, you barely get any, thanks to the speed.
Chains and super-cancelling are actually what make V-ism so powerful. Think
about that.
> The same goes for 'difficulty of execution' being a necessary skill in a a
good
> fighting title when it comes to performing moves/combos. 95% of the combos in
> Tekken are a cinch to perform (the fun is finding new ones!).
> Knowing how to set 'em up properly is where the real work is. Whether the
play
> mechanics are easy or difficult to absorb, the only things worth evaluating at
> the end of the day is the strength of its mental game, and is it fun doing so.
Never compare SF to Tekken when it comes to combos. It's like comparing
apples and oranges.
> Once you and the other guy know the rules of a title, the only thing left is
> the mind tricks you play on your opponent. EX2 is a fine title (in my
> opinion), and super cancelling actually adds a new mental element to the game.
> Say Skullomania slides in to Kairi and is blocked. He may s. cancel it at the
> last second into a Superslide as a wakeup attack. In EX2, if this is blocked
> it does no chip damage, but the smart Kairi might jump up instead to be in
good
> position to counter attack. However, Skullo may have anticipated this and
> turned on his Supershield to catch him on their way down. Kairi, who planned
> to play it safe anyway, executes an Super Air Fireball to protect his decent.
> See? It's all a mind game once the rules are understood.
Yes, but how much time do you get for all of this? Lots. THAT is the
problem. I understand completely all of the "combo mind-games" that you're
talking about because I had to invent them in the Marvel series. When I
started playing SF EX, it came naturally and easily. It's nothing
complicated...and it certainly isn't risky.
> I can understand how someone still may not like it, everyone has their own
> likes and dislikes. And yes, it allows newbie players to be flashy (against
> other newbies, that is), but the best players (against each other) still have
> to work for their wins, believe it or not. It's not better or worse - just
> different. The level of difficulty (in most cases) to achieve great things in
> SFA3 is only one reason why many are attracted to it. But another game can't
> be written off simply because it doesn't include it's required skill set.
True....but you have to know what that skill set is, first. Then, you have to
be able to see what skill set is in each game before saying that one doesn't
have it and the other does.
BTW, admitting that super-cancelling helps newbies only helps my point. It's
the scrubbiest feature known to man...and this is a combo lover talking. The
problem is that it isn't fun to lose to a low-risk gameplay feature,
regardless of your skill level.
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> To Atsuko:
>
> Well, my attention span is actually pretty long. I just don't find reading
> some silly posts very interesting, especially since the guy did not know what
> he was talking about. Frankly he was talking out of his ass and flaming me in
> with you. But you have to ammit, if you read the other guys post, he did not
> know much about EX and super cancels
Other guy? You don't mean me, do you?
What? Too afraid that if you mention my name, I'll prove you wrong....again?
(No, I'm not bragging on myself. I'm trying to goad you into saying what's on
your mind. Go ahead....make my day.)
He has not given us a spirit of fear...but He has given us a spirit...of
power! (That's a song AND a scripture. I like it.)
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> Shaunlar wrote:
>
> >The same scaling damage rule holds true for every character who uses all 3
> >supers in a combo. Using three supers for this kind of damage, when tweaked
> >properly in a game, isn't much different than performing one super (i.e.
> >X-Dhalsim) for a ton of damage. You're simply adding more motions, the
> >effect
> >(damage wise) is the same.
>
> about.
Indeed. Shaunlar's posts I can respect. Yours.....nope.
> >ekken, which most
> >people argue to be a deep title, as a game that has a ton of "thinking
> >points"
> >before one needs to decide to continue a combo. They range from
> >Heihachi/Jin's
> >'left punch,left punch (did they hit?), right punch' delayable combo, to
> >Law's
> >'low punch counter (see if it hits) then add another 5 or 6 hits for a ton of
> >damage' combo. This, and many others, is an example of a low-risk,
> >high-reward
> >element in this title, but the game is still considered great by many (myself
> >included)
>
> I feel this way too. Tekken has more time to think, to make for some
> interesting gameplay. Never really can guess what a good Tekken player is
> gonna do next.
And this is exactly why.....
You fell into the exact same "apples and oranges" trap that Shaunlar stepped
in.
Nice job of proving my point for me.
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> >ou're absolutely right, though. That's how it was with me and my early days
> >on this newsgroup. Once I admitted I was a scrub, I became better. When I
> >became a combo-master (or maybe just a fanatic), I improved even faster...and
> >had WAY more fun, too! :)
> >
>
> Well, I am far from being a scrub, but anyway... you really can't be serious.
Well I am. What are you going to do? You're not going to take my advice
because I know what I'm talking about? There's that backwards JB logic,
again.
> You take things way too seriously.. I think I'll stop responding to you.
> Frankly your seriousness on the topic is scary... bye..bye.. you were
> interesting for about 30 secs.
YES! Err...umm....wait....that's not right....
(Captain America mode on)
VICTORY!!!!
(Captain America mode off)
JB Gainz
everthing. Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him all
the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too.... not very
logical for getting people to see your point. He started off bad with me from
the beginning, so I will never give his view a chance.. since he does not
respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so). I respect your post,
because you respond in a civil manor.
As for Onejo not pulling punches.. you are not right.. he throws punches at
the first poor guy who has a difference of opinion. Enough of this.. I am
gonna watch DUNE.
JB GAINZ
JB
*can* say is that Onaje's posts (in the past) have been informative, logical
and well-supported, though I must say he isn't one to pull punches when
shooting down someone's silly misconceptions about the SF games... And so
far I have seen nothing to contradict this.
One ?= What the hell is a furby?
Also why do U agree with Onaje what ever his name is. He is not the SF God.
He is only a person that comes in here and talks. He can probably go to his
local Arcade and get his ass-wooped who knows. So U can give him a rest.
<JB Gainz Wrote this>
everthing. Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him
all the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too....
not very logical for getting people to see your point. He started off bad
with me from the beginning, so I will never give his view a chance.. since
he does not respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so). I respect
your post, because you respond in a civil manor
That is what I was saying all along. Were U PPL not reading my post. I think
I mentioned this a couple of times already.
I said since I came in here with my own opinion, and all U said I was a
scrub. And when I responded saying that all U were "dick riders". I should
have put it in nicer terms. Lemme see. Ok I got it. All of you are
followers. All of U are Onaje's Desciple and He is your Jesus. Becoz for
some odd reason ya praise him. He may have some facts. But where is your
opinion. There is a such thing as FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
And that is it. As for Onaje if you want to take this offensive I don't
care!
-**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****-
http://www.remarq.com/ - Host to the the World's Discussions & Usenet
Onaje Everett
jbg...@aol.com (JB Gainz) wrote:
> I still don't like Oneje's attitude. He may know a lot, but he does not know
> everthing.
Are you projecting? I think so. (You think that I post because I think I
know everything....but you only think this because if you were in my shoes,
this is what you'd be doing. Guess what? I'm not you. I'm actually a
humble guy.)
The fact of the matter is: I don't know everything. Yep, you heard it first
from me. However, I DO know a lot. Yep...your words. So, stop trying to put
words in my mouth and just read what I have to say. You might learn
something...and it might help you. *shrug*
> Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him all
> the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too.... not
> very logical for getting people to see your point.
Not at all!
You said that there was nothing wrong with parries. I merely showed you
logically that there are, in fact, plenty of things wrong with parries. So
what if you like the game, regardless? So do I....just not at high levels of
play.
I've had to repeat myself about five times with you. Are you getting it, yet?
> He started off bad with me from the beginning, so I will never give his view a
> chance.. since he does not respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so).
Oh please. Your whining is pitiful. Take your defeat like a man, please.
It doesn't matter whether I come at you totally foul (which I didn't) or as
nice as I possibly can (which I attempted to do), the facts that I posted
remain unchanged. If you can't deal with that, there's something wrong on
your side of the screen.
You choose to ignore my posts? C'est la vie. Que sera sera. What...ever.
> I respect your post, because you respond in a civil manor.
And because I'm blunt with my facts, I'm not civil? Grow up, please.
> As for Onejo not pulling punches.. you are not right.. he throws punches at
> the first poor guy who has a difference of opinion.
Yep...you've been around long enough to judge me, even though you can't
evaluate your own self appropriately.
I've given you credit when you've posted factual information. What more do
you want? My un-dying devotion? Sorry, but I'm devoted to the truth...and
if your posts conflict with what I know to be the truth, I'm going to say
something. If you don't like it because I have an opinion and can back it up
with facts, then I'd say you need to start with the man in the mirror.
Onaje Everett
jae...@excite.com (JB) wrote:
> <Furby wrote this>
> I will admit nothing, since I never said anything to begin with... what I
> *can* say is that Onaje's posts (in the past) have been informative, logical
> and well-supported, though I must say he isn't one to pull punches when
> shooting down someone's silly misconceptions about the SF games... And so
> far I have seen nothing to contradict this.
> <Furby wrote this>
> One ?= What the hell is a furby?
> Also why do U agree with Onaje what ever his name is. He is not the SF God.
> He is only a person that comes in here and talks. He can probably go to his
> local Arcade and get his ass-wooped who knows. So U can give him a rest.
Yay! It's another ground-less attack on me! Okay....
If all I do is talk...then why am I respected? Think about it. Is my talk
actually worth something when I DO talk?
Learn from that example.
As for me going to my arcade and getting whooped on.....HAH!!! Funny. Is
falling into the fallacy of personal attack the best you can do at countering
my arguments? C'mon, man. The idea is to PROVE me wrong, not insult me.
No, I'm not an SF god...nor do I desire to be one. If I was one, there'd be
no competition! How boring would that be? :) Remember, being a God implies
that one is perfect. I actually like not being perfect, but striving toward
it.
Thank God I'm human.
> <JB Gainz Wrote this>
> I still don't like Oneje's attitude. He may know a lot, but he does not know
> everthing. Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him
> all the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too....
> not very logical for getting people to see your point. He started off bad
> with me from the beginning, so I will never give his view a chance.. since
> he does not respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so). I respect
> your post, because you respond in a civil manor
> <JB Gainz Wrote this>
>
> That is what I was saying all along. Were U PPL not reading my post. I think
> I mentioned this a couple of times already.
> I said since I came in here with my own opinion, and all U said I was a
> scrub. And when I responded saying that all U were "dick riders". I should
> have put it in nicer terms. Lemme see. Ok I got it. All of you are
> followers. All of U are Onaje's Desciple and He is your Jesus. Becoz for
> some odd reason ya praise him. He may have some facts. But where is your
> opinion.
Heh. Ummm....aren't opinions BASED on facts? Look up the definition in a
dictionary. You'll find it clearly defined that an opinion is based on
facts...and I don't even have to look to know that!! An invalid opinion is
based on false information. A VALID opinion, which is what you keep claiming
you have, can be backed up with facts that are both subjective and concrete.
Yes, you have freedom of speech. Yes, you can say anything you want.
However, if you don't want to be corrected, don't post invalid
opinions...post opinions based on fact. If you post something based on your
personal preference, that's fine...though no one will really care (right,
Milo?). If you post something based on facts, that's fine as well. You post
wrong information...you get corrected. That's what the newsgroup is for.
By the way, I don't LET people worship me. If I see that people are trying
to do that, I stop that noise in its tracks. It's not about me, anyway.
It's about the facts. If I get respected because I post information that
people use, so be it. That's a by-product of doing the right thing.
> And that is it. As for Onaje if you want to take this offensive I don't
> care!
It doesn't take rocket science to figure THAT out. The fact of the matter is
that whether you like it or not, I'm still right...and you're still wrong.
Why? I can PROVE my statements by backing them up with facts. You can't.
Every single one of your arguments has been shot down like a duck in Duck
Hunt. If you didn't leave so many holes in your arguments, you might find
people like me not responding....or, even better, agreeing with you...and
possibly adding on to what you said.
Wouldn't it be great?! :)
Ultima
[a whole bunch of crap deleted]
> I said since I came in here with my own opinion, and all U said I was a scrub.
I'm going to take a stand on this here and now: Not everyone's opinion
is equally valid on everything.
> And when I responded saying that all U were "dick riders". I should have put it in nicer terms. Lemme see. Ok I got it. All of you are followers.
Well, if we're followers of TRUTH, then so be it. It's much better to be
a follower of TRUTH and a follower of STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE like you.
> All of U are Onaje's Desciple and He is your Jesus. Becoz for some odd reason ya praise him. He may have some facts.
Which is right where he gets you. He has facts. You don't. End of story.
> But where is your opinion. There is a such thing as FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
And there is a such thing as IGNORANCE, which you are full of.
> And that is it. As for Onaje if you want to take this offensive I don't care!
It became obvious that you don't care about the TRUTH and that you are
content to wallow in your IGNORANCE if after some 50+ posts from Onaje
shooting you down repeatedly, YOU STILL DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE.
Here's my advice: Burn your computer, and then go set yourself on fire.
That's infinitely better than having to deal with your idiotic ramblings
on a daily basis...
--
Ultima - The Right Arm of Scrub Voltron
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade
Lantis
> Also why do U agree with Onaje what ever his name is. He is not the SF God.
> He is only a person that comes in here and talks. He can probably go to his
> local Arcade and get his ass-wooped who knows. So U can give him a rest.
So, you say we should just ignore all his posts, or take them lightly?
Hell, no! If we wanted to do that, we could just kilfile your posts, which
by result, turn out to be far more annoying/worthless than anything. He is
not SF God. Nobody is. But he DOES know what he's talking about. He uses
logic to back up his statements, and I can tell you, he has given many
top-ranked SF players a good fight. I have proof. And you just come and
say that he gets his ass-wooped in his local arcade? Everybody does
someday, but you don't see them whining or anything. Why don't you just
stop talking out of your ass and prove something for a change?
> <JB Gainz Wrote this>
> I still don't like Oneje's attitude. He may know a lot, but he does not know
> everthing. Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him
> all the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too....
> not very logical for getting people to see your point. He started off bad
> with me from the beginning, so I will never give his view a chance.. since
> he does not respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so). I respect
> your post, because you respond in a civil manor
> <JB Gainz Wrote this>
Hey, it's not like he says "All must do what I say, because I say so!".
He doesn't think anything about that. He is just stating the OBVIOUS, the
LOGICAL. What he posts, most of the people here knows it's true, except
for the person whom he tries to correct (and some other blockheads such as
yourself). If he hates parries, then fine. He has arguments to back them
up. What do YOU have, hm? You seem to be stubborn that parries are useful.
You just try and give a reasonable explanation, but I doubt you will gain
anything from it. Everybody and the dog knows parries are the worst shit
in SF 3. It has been proven in tournaments everywhere. So why hide the sun
under a finger? Oh! And what's this...
JB Gainz: "He started off bad with me from the beginning, so I will never
give his view a chance."
Are you putting PERSONAL grudges before reasoning? Yeah, you suck...
> That is what I was saying all along. Were U PPL not reading my post. I think
> I mentioned this a couple of times already.
Meaning, you're a very persistent scrub...
> I said since I came in here with my own opinion, and all U said I was a
> scrub. And when I responded saying that all U were "dick riders". I should
> have put it in nicer terms.
Don't bother. It is too late.
> Lemme see. Ok I got it. All of you are
> followers. All of U are Onaje's Desciple and He is your Jesus. Becoz for
> some odd reason ya praise him.
Oh God, so let's do the Onaje Shrine!!! May he be inmortalized in the
next SF game!!! Yes, he must make trash out of his nemesis, the evil JB
Gainz! Stay tuned for next episode, kids!
> He may have some facts. But where is your opinion.
Opinion has to be based on facts, moron.
> There is a such thing as FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
And that is your excuse for saying scrubby shit?
> And that is it. As for Onaje if you want to take this offensive I don't
> care!
Go back and play MK, kid.
Oh and if you want to take this offensive, I don't care!
***************************************
* Kailu Lantis *
* The Knight whom protects Justice *
* *
* March 1999 coolest stuff: *
* Dan Hibiki, Moriya, Ryoga Hibiki *
* *
* "The only way that evil can triumph,*
* is for good men to do nothing. *
* -Alucard, Castlevania: SOTN *
***************************************
JB Gainz
You got someone elses posted mixed up with mine. I don't know who you are
responding to, because some of the stuff you claim I said.. I did not...
someone else did.... I simply said:
>I still don't like Oneje's attitude. He may know a lot, but he does not know
>> everthing. Unfortunately he seems to think everyone has to agree with him
>> all the time. If he hates parries, then your ass better hate them too....
>> not very logical for getting people to see your point. He started off bad
>> with me from the beginning, so I will never give his view a chance.. since
>> he does not respect anyone elses (despite the fact he may so). I respect
>> your post, because you respond in a civil manor
The rest of many other people... you should read closer.. I would appreciate
it.
JB GAINZ