SFA2 Tier rankings
EViLwebs
Hullo. I've gone back to playing A2 for the holidays. I'm
sure this has been covered before, but help me out here
with the tier rankings (splitting up into 4 tiers if
pos).
I don't have mastery of all the characters yet, but here's
what I reckon... feel free to add your infinite wisdom!
Top tier (kick-ass)
-------------------
M. Bison
Chun-Li
Charlie (maybe should be lower, but I've come across some awesome
Charlie players)
Upper-middle (strong characters)
--------------------------------
Akuma
Ken
Adon
Dahlsim
Sagat
Ryu
Rose
Lower-middle (strugglers)
-------------------------
Sodom
Guy
Birdie
Rolento
Lower (not quite useless)
-------------------------
Sakura
Zangief
Gen
Dan
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Dark Schneider
> Top tier (kick-ass)
> -------------------
> M. Bison
Middle, Lower-Middle.
> Chun-Li
#1.
> Charlie (maybe should be lower, but I've come across some awesome
> Charlie players)
Middle Tier.
> Upper-middle (strong characters)
> --------------------------------
> Akuma
Nope. Weakened.
> Ken
About right (4th or 5th)
> Adon
Nope. A smidge lower than 5th
> Dahlsim
Nope. Lower.
> Sagat
Lower... unfortunately.
> Ryu
Higher. Top tier. (Unfortunately)
> Rose
2nd or 3rd. CC + priority on normals.
Lower-middle (strugglers)
> -------------------------
> Sodom
About right.
> Guy
About right.
> Birdie
About right.
> Rolento
Little higher.
> Lower (not quite useless)
> -------------------------
> Sakura
A little higher.
> Zangief
Yup. <sniff>
> Gen
Yup.
> Dan
Uh-huh. (Above Gen, though... :)
Feel free to respond, flame, etc.
--
Dark Schneider
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Tom Cannon
In article <352015...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
[chomp]
>
> Lower-middle (strugglers)
>> -------------------------
>> Sodom
>
>About right.
>
>> Guy
>
>About right.
>
>> Birdie
>
>About right.
>
I can say with confidence that Birdie is DEAD LAST in Alpha2. Most characters
can CC him after a blocked rush, everyone can CC out of his hopping grab
super, Birdie has horrible CCs, and a short-range, slow AC.
The only redeeming facet to Birdie's game is his excellent air-to-air
jumping RH and jump back forward kicks, but these are moot because no one
ever has to jump against Birdie.
The only character who might be lower is Dhalsim, but *only* in a universe
where everyone plays ultra-turtle 100% of the time. Since we don't live
in that universe, Birdie takes the prize.
[snip]
>> Gen
>
>Yup.
>
>> Dan
>
>Uh-huh. (Above Gen, though... :)
>
Gen and Dan can both win. Gen can putz around with blocked chains then
use his long-range AC to take off damage, or just land that one big-damage
custom. Dan's got the CCs, and a good variety of normals.
With Birdie, on the other hand, there is really no winning strategy that
can't be countered on reaction. Birdie can't tick into chain grab (CC),
can't pressure with his headbutt rush (CC), can't advance on the ground
(too slow and no-range ACs), can't advance beyond mid-range with a jump
(only so, so air to ground), and can't go for the fluke CC to save his
sorry ass (pitiful damage).
Your only hope with Birdie is to "surprise" the other guy so that he flubs
his DP, CC, or whatever. In other words, for you to win your opponent has
to either mess up or just not know how to play against Birdie.
He's last! Dead last!
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Dark Schneider
> I can say with confidence that Birdie is DEAD LAST in Alpha2. Most characters
> can CC him after a blocked rush, everyone can CC out of his hopping grab
> super, Birdie has horrible CCs, and a short-range, slow AC.
Mmmm.... I dunno. Arguments could definitely be made for Dan, Z, and 'Sim to put under Birdie.
Birdie's moves/supers are easily counterable, and his AC + CC are indeed awful. Dan's ACs and moves/supers are
even worse, but his CC is much better. (long range, relatively fast low RH, Koryuken does decent damage) Gen
has awful priority and his moves have very limited usage. Z's a personal fav, but lacks in all major areas
(save power + CC range)
> Gen and Dan can both win. Gen can putz around with blocked chains then
> use his long-range AC to take off damage, or just land that one big-damage
> custom. Dan's got the CCs, and a good variety of normals.
Good Gen loses to good anyone else. Same with Dan. They're both bottom tier. Last? That's
opinion-based.
> With Birdie, on the other hand, there is really no winning strategy that
> can't be countered on reaction. Birdie can't tick into chain grab (CC),
> can't pressure with his headbutt rush (CC), can't advance on the ground
> (too slow and no-range ACs), can't advance beyond mid-range with a jump
> (only so, so air to ground), and can't go for the fluke CC to save his
> sorry ass (pitiful damage).
>
> Your only hope with Birdie is to "surprise" the other guy so that he flubs
> his DP, CC, or whatever. In other words, for you to win your opponent has
> to either mess up or just not know how to play against Birdie.
>
> He's last! Dead last!
Okay, okay, he's last! :) I disagree, but then again...
Mike Zaimont
<sardonically wonders to himself>
Why is it that I disagree with all the rankings? ^_^
Sodomy higher then the BSR? Give me *one* GOOD reason!
--
Mike Z--The Zangief Solution:
They jump/duck/punch/kick/Super/special/throw attempt?
Block or Tech Hit, (if applicable,) then SPD/FAB.
They die? Laugh. Then whup the computer.
James Margaris
In article <351FFD...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this>, EViLwebs <sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this> wrote:
This is so damn wrong...yikes. Here is my take, based on pernal play,
postings, the general word, etc.
Top tier:
Chun-Li
Ken
Rose
Ryu
Second Tier:
Charlie (almost first tier)
Akuma
Sagat (almost third tier)
Third Tier: Bison and Sodom are the best, Dhalsim the worst. Everyone else is
basically the same.
Bison
Sodom
Sakura
Zangief
Guy
Adon
Rolento (the one character I have basically no experience with)
Dhalsim
Lowest: Sniff, Birdie and Gen. 2 of my 3 guys.
Birdie
Gen
Dan
>Hullo. I've gone back to playing A2 for the holidays. I'm
>sure this has been covered before, but help me out here
>with the tier rankings (splitting up into 4 tiers if
>pos).
>I don't have mastery of all the characters yet, but here's
>what I reckon... feel free to add your infinite wisdom!
>
>Top tier (kick-ass)
>-------------------
>M. Bison
>Chun-Li
>Charlie (maybe should be lower, but I've come across some awesome
>Charlie players)
>
>Upper-middle (strong characters)
>--------------------------------
>Akuma
>Ken
>Adon
>Dahlsim
>Sagat
>Ryu
>Rose
>
>
>Lower-middle (strugglers)
>-------------------------
>Sodom
>Guy
>Birdie
>Rolento
>
>
>Lower (not quite useless)
>-------------------------
>Sakura
>Zangief
>Gen
>Dan
>
>
>
>
James Margaris
In article <6fp8m2$a63$1...@shell16.ba.best.com>, web...@shell16.ba.best.com (Tom Cannon) wrote:
[clip]
>I can say with confidence that Birdie is DEAD LAST in Alpha2. Most characters
>can CC him after a blocked rush, everyone can CC out of his hopping grab
>super, Birdie has horrible CCs, and a short-range, slow AC.
"Everyone can CC out of his hopping grab..." An interesting statement
but obviously false. Yes, you can CC him out of the grab if he does it when
you are just standing there, but how often does that happen? I'd would very
much like to see you CC me out of a hopping grab when I use it to jump over
your low roundhouse, hop over you low forward->fireball, hop over your
overhead hit, whatever.
>The only redeeming facet to Birdie's game is his excellent air-to-air
>jumping RH and jump back forward kicks, but these are moot because no one
>ever has to jump against Birdie.
And his low forward, low strong, jumping strong, etc.
>With Birdie, on the other hand, there is really no winning strategy that
>can't be countered on reaction. Birdie can't tick into chain grab (CC),
You are claiming to be able to CC a jab chain grab on reaction 100%? A
bold statement.
>can't pressure with his headbutt rush (CC), can't advance on the ground
>(too slow and no-range ACs), can't advance beyond mid-range with a jump
>(only so, so air to ground), and can't go for the fluke CC to save his
>sorry ass (pitiful damage).
Not true. My Birdie strategy is to walk up and throw. If you try to
hit me, I hop over your move...never fails.
James M
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>> -------------------
>> M. Bison
>
Upper Middle.
>> Chun-Li
>#1.
Could be #2, depends on your ranking style.
>> Charlie (maybe should be lower, but I've come across some awesome
>> Charlie players)
>Middle Tier.
Lower Middle, as his favorite game is destroyed by air CCs.
>> Upper-middle (strong characters)
>> Ken
>About right (4th or 5th)
Dead wrong. 1 or 2, easy. He has all that he needs; great
combos, CCs are the best, ACs are great, SCs are great, meter building is
great. He's the only character that holds an advantage on Chun.
>> Ryu
>Higher. Top tier. (Unfortunately)
Not really. Top is Chun and Ken, and then there's a big drop.
Evil Ryu is maybe just in TT.
>> Rose
>2nd or 3rd. CC + priority on normals.
CC is only great if they are stupid.
> Lower-middle (strugglers)
>> Sodom
>> Guy
>> Birdie
>> Rolento
>Little higher.
>> Lower (not quite useless)
>> -------------------------
>> Sakura
>A little higher.
Better than Birdie.
>> Zangief
>Yup. <sniff>
HUGE CCs make him worthwhile. One tier up.
>> Gen
>> Dan
--
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what happens when you go back in time and kill your 'dad' now doesn't it?"
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Dark Schneider
> >> M. Bison
> >
> >Middle, Lower-Middle.
>
> Upper Middle.
Won't argue there. Just not top.
> >> Ken
> >About right (4th or 5th)
>
> Dead wrong. 1 or 2, easy. He has all that he needs; great
> combos, CCs are the best, ACs are great, SCs are great, meter building is
> great. He's the only character that holds an advantage on Chun.
Best ACs, high-damage CCs, Decent supers, but can't touch Chun. I'll give you 2nd, though. I was gonna
put him behind Chun, Rose, and Ryu... However, I completely ignored the sickeningly powerful punch AC AND the
comboability of the Shinryuken. I suck. <bows> Punish me accordingly...
> >Higher. Top tier. (Unfortunately)
>
> Not really. Top is Chun and Ken, and then there's a big drop.
> Evil Ryu is maybe just in TT.
For sheer CC range alone. I'd still put him top tier, though. (Along with Chun, Ken, and Rose)
> >> Rose
> >2nd or 3rd. CC + priority on normals.
>
> CC is only great if they are stupid.
With CCs, intelligence of your opponent doesn't matter. Either you block low, or you eat it. Low RH
range + speed + high damage (100% if opponent is stupid.. perhaps this is what you meant?) = good CC.
> >> Sakura
> >A little higher.
>
> Better than Birdie.
Yah.
> >> Zangief
> >Yup. <sniff>
>
> HUGE CCs make him worthwhile. One tier up.
Eh? Even I don't give Z that much credit. Big low RH + high-damage CCs yes... but still gets fried by
90% of the characters.
Chocobo
EViLwebs wrote:
> Top tier (kick-ass)
> -------------------
> Charlie (maybe should be lower, but I've come across some awesome
> Charlie players)
Totally off. Charlie is mid to low... useless flashkick, not so great
CC, useless ACs, not the greatest supers, doesn't even hit all that
hard. He's not terrible, but nowhere near top tier.
> Upper-middle (strong characters)
> --------------------------------
> Akuma
Akuma is weak, and takes way too much damage.
> Adon
uh... Adon is totally killed by CCs. Any move he does is pretty much a
free CC, and in a game where CCs are everything he just gets mowed.
> Lower-middle (strugglers)
> -------------------------
> Birdie
I agree with the people who said Birdie is the worst character. He's got
nothing. Slow, weak CC, loses to all sorts of simple turtling.
> Lower (not quite useless)
> -------------------------
> Sakura
I still haven't played anyone good enough to utilize her crossup BS on
me, but I've seen a little of it and apparently she can compete with the
better characters, as long as she can get meter and set up the crossup
with an AC.
> > >> Zangief
> > >Yup.
> >
> > HUGE CCs make him worthwhile. One tier up.
>
> Eh? Even I don't give Z that much credit. Big low RH +
> high-damage CCs yes...
> but still gets fried by
> 90% of the characters.
What? I don't agree at all... Zangief is pretty high, probably 2nd tier.
Loses 100% to Chun and has some problems with weaker characters like
Rolento and Dhalsim, but does good against most characters. "Big low RH
+ high-damage CCs" is all it takes to be good in A2, and Gief has more.
He has an advantage over Rose, can compete with Ryu and Ken fairly well,
and is pretty even or has an advantage over most everyone else. He can
jump in on many characters safely, and that means a LOT.
I also think that Sagat is underrated, his CCs are just massive, and the
tiger knee is very useful. I wish I could play him well, I always get
caught throwing too many fireballs... I saw Omar get 25-30 wins with
Sagat and lose out of sheer boredom, it was pretty impressive... I don't
see how he safely threw so many fireballs.
Milo D. Cooper
> Tom Cannon wrote:
>> Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> [chomp]
>
>>
>> Lower-middle (strugglers)
>>> -------------------------
>>> Sodom
>>
>>About right.
>>
>>> Guy
>>
>>About right.
>>
>> Birdie
>>
>>About right.
>>
>
> can CC him after a blocked rush, everyone can CC out of his hopping grab
> super, Birdie has horrible CCs, and a short-range, slow AC.
>
> jumping RH and jump back forward kicks, but these are moot because no one
> ever has to jump against Birdie.
Birdie probably is the worst in the game. Either him or Dan. How
sad is *that*?? From powerhouse to total shite. Love them customs!
> The only character who might be lower is Dhalsim, but *only* in a universe
> where everyone plays ultra-turtle 100% of the time. Since we don't live
> in that universe, Birdie takes the prize.
In that case, Dhalsim is the worst character in San Diego.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| www.milos-chalkboard.net www.everquest.com |/
svil...@crystald.com
Someone please explain to me why Rolento is considered 3rd tier??? (and bottom
3rd tier, at that) As a Rolento player (and not half bad, at that ;)), my
opinion is that he's EASILY 2nd tier, with a good chance against almost any
other character across the board. Not the best, but certainly not anywhere
near that far down. Have these guys seen ANY good Rolento players, so they
have something to base these rankings on???
Sam Villanueva
Designer and bad-ass Rolento player :)
Crystal Dynamics
svil...@crystald.com
p.s. if anyone DOES want to see a good Rolento player, get ahold of me and we
can head down to Sunnyvale, you can have all the 1st and 2nd tier characters
you want, let's see if I can hold my own against them.
(not talkin' 20 games of Rolento vs. Chun, I want a good mix of all the top
tier characters)
c-ya!!!!
(anything for a decent game of Alpha2)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
EViLwebs
I don't think Birdie belongs in the last spot. I've seen
some pretty good Birdie players and there's definitely
some potential there if he gets in close on you. Just
my opinion.
Castellan
svil...@crystald.com writes:
>Someone please explain to me why Rolento is considered 3rd tier??? (and bottom
>3rd tier, at that) As a Rolento player (and not half bad, at that ;)), my
>opinion is that he's EASILY 2nd tier, with a good chance against almost any
>other character across the board. Not the best, but certainly not anywhere
>near that far down. Have these guys seen ANY good Rolento players, so they
>have something to base these rankings on???
Yeah, I gotta agree, here - Rolento is my #1 man in A2, and I've had
win streaks of up to 16-20 here in Norman, against some not-unskilled ARK
players. True, I have yet to meet a formidable Chun (I'd'a thought that
with the high scrub presence here, she'd be a natural choice), but if
Rolento were truly third-tier, I wouldn't be winning as much as I do. Of
course, Rolento, with his various Mekon Escapes, is a FB/DP trappers
worst nightmare, and I see a LOT of that here...
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Chocobo
Castellan wrote:
> svil...@crystald.com writes:
>
> >Someone please explain to me why Rolento is considered 3rd tier??? (and bottom
> >3rd tier, at that) As a Rolento player (and not half bad, at that ;)), my
> >opinion is that he's EASILY 2nd tier, with a good chance against almost any
> >other character across the board. Not the best, but certainly not anywhere
> >near that far down. Have these guys seen ANY good Rolento players, so they
> >have something to base these rankings on???
>
> Yeah, I gotta agree, here - Rolento is my #1 man in A2, and I've had
> win streaks of up to 16-20 here in Norman, against some not-unskilled ARK
> players. True, I have yet to meet a formidable Chun (I'd'a thought that
> with the high scrub presence here, she'd be a natural choice), but if
> Rolento were truly third-tier, I wouldn't be winning as much as I do. Of
> course, Rolento, with his various Mekon Escapes, is a FB/DP trappers
> worst nightmare, and I see a LOT of that here...
Rolento just doesn't have as many safe attacking options as other characters. It's
sort of hard to explain it I guess, since you can always say that he's got his own
good priority moves, he does have a good CC, and he's pretty fast. He's
consistently at a disadvantage against many of the characters. Rolento may be a
FB/DP trappers worst nightmare, but if that's what your opponents are doing, you're
playing against scrubs. If there were any people at the arcade here like there used
to be, I'd be able to get a big win streak with Rolento (or Dan for that matter),
but that doesn't prove that a certain character is better.
Chocobo
James Margaris wrote:
> In article <3520A05C...@mindspring.com>, Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I also think that Sagat is underrated, his CCs are just massive, and the
> >tiger knee is very useful. I wish I could play him well, I always get
> >caught throwing too many fireballs... I saw Omar get 25-30 wins with
> >Sagat and lose out of sheer boredom, it was pretty impressive... I don't
> >see how he safely threw so many fireballs.
>
> Hear hear! Question: How is the Tiger Knee useful? I can't find much
> use for it, other than air defense from very certain ranges against certain
> characters.
Well it's not incredibly useful, but it's a decent move to stick out every once in a
while. It's got surprising range and comes out really fast... if the opponent is standing
up and attempting nearly any move, the Tiger Knee can often catch them off guard, and
will at least trade hits and cause some nice damage. It's also a perfect move to use if
someone jumps in from far away and they're out of range for the Tiger Uppercut... which
is rare, but it can be used then.
svil...@crystald.com
> Yeah, I gotta agree, here - Rolento is my #1 man in A2, and I've had
> win streaks of up to 16-20 here in Norman, against some not-unskilled ARK
> players. True, I have yet to meet a formidable Chun (I'd'a thought that
> with the high scrub presence here, she'd be a natural choice), but if
> Rolento were truly third-tier, I wouldn't be winning as much as I do. Of
> course, Rolento, with his various Mekon Escapes, is a FB/DP trappers
> worst nightmare, and I see a LOT of that here...
I have a great time smacking ARK players around, just gotta watch out for
Ken's counter :) ...Chun's in-f*cking-sane with the customs and alphas, and
she deserves to be top tier. Hit up a tourney, you'll see what I mean. (I play
her, also, until someone complains "play somebody original", then I bring out
Roley)
Where's Norman, anyway???
-sam
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
In article <352084...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>> >> M. Bison
>> >Middle, Lower-Middle.
>> Upper Middle.
> Won't argue there. Just not top.
He does play the most interesting game of all of them though - one
not based on ACs and CCs.
>> >> Ken
>> >About right (4th or 5th)
>> Dead wrong. 1 or 2, easy. He has all that he needs; great
>> combos, CCs are the best, ACs are great, SCs are great, meter building is
>> great. He's the only character that holds an advantage on Chun.
> Best ACs, high-damage CCs, Decent supers, but can't touch Chun. I'll give you 2nd, though. I was gonna
>put him behind Chun, Rose, and Ryu... However, I completely ignored the sickeningly powerful punch AC AND the
>comboability of the Shinryuken. I suck. <bows> Punish me accordingly...
Actually, he's the only one that deal with Chun (5.5-4.5 Ken),
basically everyone else DIES to her (6.0++ or so) while Ken just has an
advantage.
>> >> Rose
>> >2nd or 3rd. CC + priority on normals.
>> CC is only great if they are stupid.
> With CCs, intelligence of your opponent doesn't matter. Either you block low, or you eat it. Low RH
>range + speed + high damage (100% if opponent is stupid.. perhaps this is what you meant?) = good CC.
Actually "around 250% they just die around 100." Otherwise damage
is not nearly as good as Ken/Chun, and she doesn't build up as well.
>> >> Zangief
>> >Yup. <sniff>
>> HUGE CCs make him worthwhile. One tier up.
> Eh? Even I don't give Z that much credit. Big low RH + high-damage CCs yes... but still gets fried by
>90% of the characters.
Not really. Air CC drop through allows him to have OK matches
against many ppl.. "Chocobo is " NOT " full of shit", as it were.
James Margaris
[clip almost everything]
>> Not true. My Birdie strategy is to walk up and throw. If you try to
>>hit me, I hop over your move...never fails.
>
>Ok. I see now. The people you're playing against are either really bad
>or stupid. With Birdie's slow walking speed, how are you going to walk
>inside sweep range all the way into chain-grab range without me doing a
>Valle CC?
Ahem. It was sarcasm. My point was that you should:
a) Not make false claims and misleading statements
b) Back up your arguments
That said I agree that Birdie is one of the worst, but I would put him
higher than Gen. Birdie can mix tick attempts with low strongs and a healthy
amount of blocking to get his opponent to waste their meter on blocked
customs, and AC them at the end for better damage. (And if you hit with the
Kick AC a chain grab attempt when they have zero meter) If the opponent
doesn't like to CC tick attempts then you hit with the tick.
Birdie's jumping strong or jumping roundhouse from far will trade with
a lot of anti-air moves. Jumping from pretty far away with roundhouse is
almost completly safe.
Gen does *very* low damage, a lot of his moves have worse range than
they seem (low roundhouse and low fierce, for example), while Birdie's pokes
(low forward and strong) have better range than they look. Gen has better AC
and CC, true, but he has nothing else. (Neither character can do safe block
damage)
At the level they play it hardly matters. Both get wrecked by just
about everyone else. (IMO Birdie is much better against Dhalsim and Gen much
better against Zangief)
James M
James Margaris
In article <6fpvk5$d...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Mike Zaimont <jzai...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
><sardonically wonders to himself>
>Why is it that I disagree with all the rankings? ^_^
>
>Sodomy higher then the BSR? Give me *one* GOOD reason!
Jab Jitte Rush.
James M
James Margaris
> Birdie probably is the worst in the game. Either him or Dan. How
>sad is *that*?? From powerhouse to total shite. Love them customs!
Powerhouse? What game was that? Birdie in A1 was one of the worst. My
take on A1 Birdie:
Loses to Ken/Ryu 7.5 - 2.5
Loses to Akuma 9.5 - 0.5
Loses to Charlie 6-4
Loses to Sagat 6-4
Loses to Chun-Li ??-?? (didn't see that much of Chun-Li)
Loses to Sodom ?? - ??
Loses to Guy ??-??
Loses to Rose 7.5--2.5
Ties/Beats Adon ?
Bison? (Probably loses)
Dan?
Anyone with a quick low chain destroyed Birdie, as it made his TAH
worthless. Besides repeated chain grabs Birdie was powerless against against
turtles. And Akuma...nothing Birdie can do...
James M
James Margaris
>I also think that Sagat is underrated, his CCs are just massive, and the
>tiger knee is very useful. I wish I could play him well, I always get
>caught throwing too many fireballs... I saw Omar get 25-30 wins with
>Sagat and lose out of sheer boredom, it was pretty impressive... I don't
>see how he safely threw so many fireballs.
Hear hear! Question: How is the Tiger Knee useful? I can't find much
use for it, other than air defense from very certain ranges against certain
characters.
James M
Dark Schneider
> He does play the most interesting game of all of them though - one
> not based on ACs and CCs.
Amazingly enough.
> Actually, he's the only one that deal with Chun (5.5-4.5 Ken),
> basically everyone else DIES to her (6.0++ or so) while Ken just has an
> advantage.
Hmmm... 5.5-4.5 Ken? I'd think it to be the other way around. Does Ken have any reliable way through
the old low forward, Kikokken fun? (save CCs) He does have better ACs, and his CCs are as good, if not better.
However, I still don't think he can take Chun. She just has too much range on low forward, low roundhouse, and
has better priority on all normals. Hmmm...
> >> >> Rose
> >> >2nd or 3rd. CC + priority on normals.
> >> CC is only great if they are stupid.
> > With CCs, intelligence of your opponent doesn't matter. Either you block low, or you eat it. Low RH
> >range + speed + high damage (100% if opponent is stupid.. perhaps this is what you meant?) = good CC.
>
> Actually "around 250% they just die around 100." Otherwise damage
> is not nearly as good as Ken/Chun, and she doesn't build up as well.
I still think she's 3rd or 4th. Better damage CCs if opponent is stupid.. otherwise, a smidge less.
Plus, good priority on normals and two good ACs.
> Not really. Air CC drop through allows him to have OK matches
> against many ppl.. "Chocobo is " NOT " full of shit", as it were.
?? Chocobo? Whatever. The fact is, Z needs to build up enough meter in order to do a CC. Not always
easy. He isn't last by any means. However, I would only put him above 'Sim (even though he loses that
particular match), Gen, Birdie, and Dan. Maybe even Sakura.
Chocobo
Dark Schneider wrote:
> The fact is, Z needs to build up enough meter in order to do a CC. Not always
> easy. He isn't last by any means. However, I would only put him above 'Sim (even though he loses that
> particular match), Gen, Birdie, and Dan. Maybe even Sakura.
No offense, but it's evident you don't know a whole lot about Zangief to rank him that low. He's got one of the
best CCs in the game which is extremely important in A2, he's got some of the best jumping attacks which allow him
to get in close for an SPD, all of his moves do so much damage. I'd put him below Chun, Rose, Ken, and probably
Ryu, but that's about it. In the ranking system where every match is rated (like 5.5-4.5) he comes out somewhat
lower because a couple of characters win 10-0 or close to it.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
WILLIAM A GREEN, JR.
james m wrote
>
> Not true. My Birdie strategy is to walk up and throw. If you try to
>hit me, I hop over your move...never fails.
>
> James M
i am tired of this stupid shit birdie is fuckin garbage where are you from
play me ill play rose or chun li and guarantee 7 out of ten wins no matter
what your skill level hell ill play any body but guy, sodom,dan,or
gen and guarantee 7 out of ten he is that fuckin bad e-mail me and if you
live on the east coast i will gladly punish your filthy booey
Castellan
svil...@crystald.com writes:
>> Yeah, I gotta agree, here - Rolento is my #1 man in A2, and I've had
>> win streaks of up to 16-20 here in Norman, against some not-unskilled ARK
>> players. True, I have yet to meet a formidable Chun (I'd'a thought that
>> with the high scrub presence here, she'd be a natural choice), but if
>> Rolento were truly third-tier, I wouldn't be winning as much as I do. Of
>> course, Rolento, with his various Mekon Escapes, is a FB/DP trappers
>> worst nightmare, and I see a LOT of that here...
>I have a great time smacking ARK players around, just gotta watch out for
>Ken's counter :) ...Chun's in-f*cking-sane with the customs and alphas, and
>she deserves to be top tier. Hit up a tourney, you'll see what I mean. (I play
>her, also, until someone complains "play somebody original", then I bring out
>Roley)
>Where's Norman, anyway???
Norman, Oklahoma - home to the University of Oklahoma. SF competition
around here is completely stagnant, although A2 does occasionally see some
play at a couple of locales - well, those locales that haven't traded it in
for XvsSF or MvsC. Bleagh. There are a few good players, here, who use
non-standard fighters (Zangief, Rose, Adon), but most of the A2 comp are
ARK scrubs tired of waiting in line to play MvsC. Reflecting on the success
I have in beating them, I'd actually have to attribute it more to their
inability to play against non-ARK characters, since anytime I or the other
aforementioned players who use non-standard chara, the scrubbies are usually
locked in heated Evil Ryu vs. Akuma thwack-a-thons. When I join in, they're
usually surprised to see me pick Rolento or Rose, and playing Vega-style
"flying" Rolento flummoxes them utterly. The end result is tons of
badly-timed, wild DPs leaving them open for a nasty trip into Patriot Circle
CC. Watching them turtle up and start chucking fireballs when they realize
that they have no fuckin' clue how to fight a decent Rolento really brings
out the predatorial instincts, since the turtle-up-and-FB tactic is, at
least around here, the SF equivalent to crouching in the corner of a dark
alley and emitting what you hope are threatening little rodent squeaks.
One guy who I'd really wasted actually slammed the joystick and said to
his friend, who was watching: "If this game had Sabretooth in it, I'd have
fuckin' kicked his ass." Har.
Chocobo's right when he said it sounds like we have a lot of scrubs
here, because we do. Hell, I'm almost a borderline scrub these days myself,
since I have to play MvsC or XvsSF if I want a little competition, and I
go back to earlier SF titles with all the button-mashing and template
dial-a-combo motions burned into my synapses. While it's not a great comment
on my SF ability, it sure shows how the SF scene has devolved.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Dark Schneider
Man, this is news to me. 5th? First it's Shaun, with "a tier higher", and now Choc with "5th place"? I
can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
and some decent defense... but by no means is he top tier or middle-top tier. He just gets crushed by Chun,
Adon, 'Sim, and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast. He takes Dan (7-3), Gen (6-4), Birdie
(6-4), and Sakura (6-4). He has some even matches with a couple others, but by no means is he 5th.
Perhaps an April Fool's Day joke.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
In article <3521D2...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> ?? Chocobo? Whatever. The fact is, Z needs to build up enough meter in order to do a CC. Not always
>particular match), Gen, Birdie, and Dan. Maybe even Sakura.
Z builds pretty fast, not as well as Chun or Ken but good enough.
David Alexander S Dial
In article <352293...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
Dark Schneider <ggr...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> Man, this is news to me. 5th? First it's Shaun, with "a tier higher", and now Choc with "5th place"? I
>can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
>and some decent defense... but by no means is he top tier or middle-top tier. He just gets crushed by Chun,
He *IS* in either of those two tiers, exactly FOR the reasons you stated
(among others).
>Adon,
I don't buy this... Block and SPD all his moves, OR block and hit if out
of range, OR CC through for big damage. Your choice.
>'Sim,
He does *NOT* get "crushed" by Dhalsim. The match is slightly in
Dhalsim's favor, I'd say, but it is close. Why? 2 simple reasons - the CC
and the Kick Lariat. Kick Lariats (KKK) will hit ALL of Dhalsim's
standing moves. PLUS, they knock 'Sim down. Zangief recovers rather
quickly from this, allowing him to inch in little by little. Once he's in
close, it's over. Zangief can then jump in, andCC through 'Sim's limbs and
hit with one of the best CCs in the game...
>and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast.
Rolento isn't that hard either. CC through on a jump in, and Rolento
loses a LOT. In fact, this simple strategy WILL work on most
characters... And in case you're wondering how Zangief GAINS enough meter
to level up, simply do a SPD and follow it with a couple of Jab Green
Hands while they're knocked down. Zangief will RARELY be without a meter...
David Alexander S. Dial
"Stop whining. If it's in the game, it's in the game."
Chocobo
Dark Schneider wrote:
> Man, this is news to me. 5th? First it's Shaun, with "a tier higher", and now Choc with "5th place"? I
> can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
> and some decent defense... but by no means is he top tier or middle-top tier.
Why not?
> He just gets crushed by Chun,
> Adon, 'Sim, and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast.
Adon?? Zangief has a HUGE advantage over Adon... free SPD after any misjudged distance on a jaguar kick, or free CC
pretty much any time Adon does a special move. I don't think Rolento has an advantage either... those knives can be
annoying, but it's not a guaranteed win... a patient Gief wins that one, IMO. Who do you consider to be in the other
25%? There's Ryu and Ken... possibly Sakura? He takes Birdie just about 9-1...
> Perhaps an April Fool's Day joke.
That would have been a pretty lame joke... no, it's for real. If it was an April Fools' Day joke, I would have said that
Chun Li sucks.
Anthony Cannon wrote:
> 2nd Tier: Sakura, Zangief
Is she really that good? I've noticed that she has a few Gief-stopping tricks, but I assume that this is almost
completely due to her unusual crossup... is it really that useful, that she's 2nd tier? I've never had anyone use it on
me...
Dark Schneider
> > Man, this is news to me. 5th? First it's Shaun, with "a tier higher", and now Choc with "5th place"? I
> > can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
> > and some decent defense... but by no means is he top tier or middle-top tier.
>
> Why not?
>
> > He just gets crushed by Chun,
> > Adon, 'Sim, and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast.
>
> Adon?? Zangief has a HUGE advantage over Adon... free SPD after any misjudged distance on a jaguar kick
Even if he hits with it, actually.
> or free CC
> pretty much any time Adon does a special move. I don't think Rolento has an advantage either... those knives can be
> annoying, but it's not a guaranteed win... a patient Gief wins that one, IMO.
Well, I myself think Rolento + Adon are both 6-4 (maybe 5.5-4.5) over Z. Adon does get burnt on Jag
Kicks, but then again... what good Adon will be Jag. Kicking constantly, if at all? His priority on normals
(s. RH + c. strong) can keep Z out, and Jag. Knee is fairly effective at countering jump-ins (even the mighty
knee). Yes, when Z gets a level, you've gotta be incredibly careful (duh!). Rolento has a fairly effective
keep-away between the knives, c. strong + c. fierce. Granted, CCs blow through just about everything, but in
order to build meter, Z has to get in. (Or sit in the corner Kick Lariat all day... but that can get you hurt.
Adon + Rolento both are fair at keeping Z out, hence, Z needs to work for a victory.
'Sim does beat 'Gief. Z can CC through limbs with that long c. RH, but has absolutely no way of
getting in close reliably against "Stretch". (With reliably emphasized, since there are several ways for Z to
get in, just not more than 3 or 4 times out of 10) As long as Z is kept past sweep distance, he's yoga kibble.
Chun just flat out outprioritizes Z in every possible scenario. Ryu/Ken/Evil Ryu wreak all kinds of
havoc (although is really like a 6-4 match.. nothing incredible) Sakura has an advantage as well. The only
people Z has any significant advantage on is Birdie, Gen, and Dan. He fights evenly with the rest of the
pack... which would put him in the middle. Dammit, where are those Gamest rankings?
> That would have been a pretty lame joke... no, it's for real. If it was an April Fools' Day joke, I would have said that
> Chun Li sucks.
True.
Dave Connoy
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Dark Schneider wrote:
> Chun just flat out outprioritizes Z in every possible scenario. Ryu/Ken/
> Evil Ryu wreak all kinds of havoc (although is really like a 6-4 match..
> nothing incredible) Sakura has an advantage as well. The only people Z
> has any significant advantage on is Birdie, Gen, and Dan. He fights
> evenly with the rest of the pack... which would put him in the middle.
> Dammit, where are those Gamest rankings?
Guess I'll make myself useful. The Gamest rankings are totally fucked in
my opinion... you'll see why. Taken from the Versus SFA2 guide; ?'s
denote various degrees of me asking "WTF?"
Gamest SFA2 Rankings:
1. Chun-Li
2. Charlie (?)
3. Rose
4. Adon (?)
5. Birdie (???) This MUST be a typo
6. Rolento
7. Guy
8. Dhalsim
9. M. Bison
10. Ryu (??)
11. Ken (??)
12. Sakura
13. Akuma
14. Sodom (?)
15. Sagat (?)
16. Zangief
17. Gen
18. Dan
So as you can see, the Japanese don't have any higher of an opinion of Z
than US players do, at least in published ranking charts. I personally
think that ranking Birdie as top tier makes the whole damn thing
questionable.
Dave Connoy
con...@students.uiuc.edu
SF Code v5.0:
Dark Schneider
> Guess I'll make myself useful. The Gamest rankings are totally fucked in
> my opinion... you'll see why. Taken from the Versus SFA2 guide; ?'s
> denote various degrees of me asking "WTF?"
>
> Gamest SFA2 Rankings:
>
> 1. Chun-Li
> 2. Charlie (?)
> 3. Rose
> 4. Adon (?)
> 5. Birdie (???) This MUST be a typo
> 6. Rolento
> 7. Guy
> 8. Dhalsim
> 9. M. Bison
> 10. Ryu (??)
> 11. Ken (??)
> 12. Sakura
> 13. Akuma
> 14. Sodom (?)
> 15. Sagat (?)
> 16. Zangief
> 17. Gen
> 18. Dan
I completely forgot about that... I don't think they were taking Valle CC into consideration.
(Hence why Chuckles is so high and Ken and Z are so low..) Dammit... wait, weren't the "Sunnyvale" rankings in
there, too? I recall them having Z pretty low as well, whil fixing the rest of these oversights... Who
cares. It's all opinion anyways.
Chocobo
Dark Schneider wrote:
> Well, I myself think Rolento + Adon are both 6-4 (maybe 5.5-4.5) over Z. Adon does get burnt on Jag
> Kicks, but then again... what good Adon will be Jag. Kicking constantly, if at all?
Of course he won't be doing nothing but Jaguar kicks, but that really doesn't matter. But basically, Adon's specials are
pretty much useless, he can do nothing but poke or CC the whole time. Adon doesn't stand a chance with Gief, and he is weak
overall.
> Rolento has a fairly effective
> keep-away between the knives, c. strong + c. fierce. Granted, CCs blow through just about everything, but in
> order to build meter, Z has to get in. (Or sit in the corner Kick Lariat all day... but that can get you hurt.
The knives can extend the length of the match, but it doesn't help to win all that much, unless you're trying to win by time
limit. Gief only has to get in close once to cause some damage, and once Gief has meter the knives are pretty useless anyway.
I guess Rolento has a big advantage for the first seconds of the fight, when no one has any meter.
> 'Sim does beat 'Gief. Z can CC through limbs with that long c. RH, but has absolutely no way of
> getting in close reliably against "Stretch". (With reliably emphasized, since there are several ways for Z to
> get in, just not more than 3 or 4 times out of 10) As long as Z is kept past sweep distance, he's yoga kibble.
That's true. Once in a while you can get in close enough and keep the pressure on enough so that they can't back away to the
distance they want, but it's rare.
> Chun just flat out outprioritizes Z in every possible scenario.
10-0 Chun IMO.
> Ryu/Ken/Evil Ryu wreak all kinds of
> havoc (although is really like a 6-4 match.. nothing incredible)
I don't know... Gief has a slight disadvantage to Ken, it might be closer to even with Ryu...
> Sakura has an advantage as well.
I'd like to see one of these good Sakuras... I'll go along with this since I don't know much about her.
> The only
> people Z has any significant advantage on is Birdie, Gen, and Dan. He fights evenly with the rest of the
> pack... which would put him in the middle.
Not really. Advantages over Rose (not many characters do), Birdie, Gen, Dan, Akuma (who really is weak in A2 IMO), Guy, and
Charlie. Closer fights with Sagat, Sodom, and Bison.
> Dammit, where are those Gamest rankings?
Who cares? Gamest is clueless when it comes to rankings. SFA2 Ken sucks, SFA2 Charlie and ST T. Hawk are good? They're
guessing.
Kevin
Well for one, there were still a lot of things that people found out
after the book came out. Both Z and Sakura are the top or near the top
of the 2nd tier..easily...this is at the highest levels of play
though....at lower levels they'd definitely be much lower because they
are harder to play really well.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
>Adon, 'Sim, and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast. He takes Dan (7-3), Gen (6-4), Birdie
Adon is a cake walk; does he have anything that's not CC bait?
Show me a card..
Sean Roddy
James Margaris
In article <6fu5sg$5rs$1...@shell2.ba.best.com>, pon...@shell2.ba.best.com (Anthony Cannon) wrote:
>Top Tier: Chun, Ken, Ryu, Rose
>2nd Tier: Sakura, Zangief
>Bottom Tier: Gen, Dan, Birdie
>
>Everyone else is subject to debate (eg. is Sagat 2nd tier? Hmmm.)
Sakura 2nd tier? No way. If you learn to block the crossup, you can
win. Sagat and Charlie are both better, IMO.
James M
James Margaris
>Adon?? Zangief has a HUGE advantage over Adon... free SPD after any misjudged
> distance on a jaguar kick, or free CC
>pretty much any time Adon does a special move.
Adon can't do a damn thing against Zangief. (Or most characters,
really)
> He takes Birdie just about 9-1...
Yes he does. Random standing fierces are a nightmare to get past. If
you try to do the Birdie hop the punch actually lasts long enough for Birdie
to land on it and get knocked away. The standing fierce will not hit Birdie
ducking but will hit him if he tries almost any ducking attack. It is also
almost impossible for Birdie to jump over. Any blocked headbutt can be hit by
a low fierce...and once Zangief gets close Birdie can't do much of anything to
escape a tick. This is one of Birdie's worst matchups.
James M
Black Dragon
> Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> > Man, this is news to me. 5th? First it's Shaun, with "a tier
higher", and now Choc with "5th place"? I
> > can buy a tier higher. After all, he does have the SPD glitch inside a
custom (sort of), plus a long range RH,
> > and some decent defense... but by no means is he top tier or
middle-top tier.
>
> Why not?
>
> > He just gets crushed by Chun,
> > Adon, 'Sim, and Rolento, plus he loses to another 25% of the cast.
>
> Adon?? Zangief has a HUGE advantage over Adon... free SPD after any
misjudged distance on a jaguar kick, or free CC
> pretty much any time Adon does a special move.
Depends on the special move. I can usually beat Zangief with my Adon
using low forwards, and when he jumps, Jaguar Knee. But Zangief vs Adon
does seem a fairly even fight if the Gief player is skilled.
I don't think Rolento has an advantage either... those knives can be
> annoying, but it's not a guaranteed win... a patient Gief wins that one,
IMO. Who do you consider to be in the other
> 25%? There's Ryu and Ken... possibly Sakura? He takes Birdie just about 9-1...
>
> > Perhaps an April Fool's Day joke.
>
> That would have been a pretty lame joke... no, it's for real. If it was
an April Fools' Day joke, I would have said that
> Chun Li sucks.
>
Peter Talley
Anthony Cannon (pon...@shell2.ba.best.com) wrote:
: Top Tier: Chun, Ken, Ryu, Rose
: 2nd Tier: Sakura, Zangief
: Bottom Tier: Gen, Dan, Birdie
: Tony Cannon
: pon...@best.com
I have to disagree with your second tier. They are easily
replaced with Bison(maybe even first tier) and Charlie. Bison has
the best throw in the game and quick recovery off supers. His AC
is ok, but his scissor super goes through anything and is ultra
fast. He also does good damage. Bison can beat any of the top tier
with fake out head stomps and tick throws. His low strong is somewhat
slow, but stuffs CC well.
Charlie has a hard time with Chun Li and Rose, but he can beat
Ken and Ryu with sonic boom supers, short sonic kicks and turtling.
He also has a decent throw and an average CC. I have never seen
Zangief beat Charlie anywhere near consistently and Charlie can beat
Sakura more than 50% of the time.
Tell me if you agree. And, out of curiousity, where does
everyone place Adon. I have been using him lately, and feel he could
make second tier based on his low strong and CC.
Justin Boley
Anthony Cannon wrote:
> 3) That insane crossup. Which as you mentioned can be blocked, but is
> difficult. If you get hit with this, she can follow up with combo (2)
> for big damage, putting you back on the ground.
Can you explain this crossup? I've heard a lot about how Sakura has a
good crossup, but I don't know what normal it is or what makes it so
potent. Is it an "ambiguous crossup", in that from the same jump-in,
she can easily choose either a normal or crossup hit?
--Bulkor
Ultima
Useless factor: Low
Rambling conten: Moderate
Warning: Read at your own discretion
************************************
Flying forward kick AFAIK. Extremely devious. She seems to hit you with
her ass or something (the hit point is underneathe her and a little
behind - no pun intended :). Almost as devious as Gen's Hateful flying
forward cross-up (IMO), but Gen can't take quite as much advantage with
it. :(
--
Ultima
http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Street Fighter RPG, Final
Fantasy VII, Fan art, and miscellaneous rambling...
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{V+ MB+ Rl+ Cr+[SFA2] I[III]+ Ax[I,III]+}
[ac- +cc+(!ccRl&MB) ch- cn- c m+ 2+ n++ os+ p+ r@++ sp- st ta--
t(t+SCR) tm-- tr-:- th--@- v+(v++SFA2)]
"If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
"If an arcade doesn't contain some version of SF or SS in it,
then's it's not an arcade"
John Choi
On 3 Apr 1998, Anthony Cannon wrote:
> >>Top Tier: Chun, Ken, Ryu, Rose
> >>2nd Tier: Sakura, Zangief
> >>Bottom Tier: Gen, Dan, Birdie
> >>
> >>Everyone else is subject to debate (eg. is Sagat 2nd tier? Hmmm.)
> >
> > Sakura 2nd tier? No way. If you learn to block the crossup, you can
> >win. Sagat and Charlie are both better, IMO.
> >
> > James M
>
> Sagat is probably also 2nd tier. This doesn't change the fact that Sakura
> is as well, however.
>
> Things Sakura have going for her:
>
> 1) Good custom. Better than Charlie's, worse than Sagat's.
>
> 2) l.short, l.jab, l.short, s.short, fierce DP. That's super level damage
> off 1 low short. If you get hit by this you end up on the ground (which
> is very bad. see below).
>
> 3) That insane crossup. Which as you mentioned can be blocked, but is
> difficult. If you get hit with this, she can follow up with combo (2)
> for big damage, putting you back on the ground.
>
> 4) Because of (2) and her great foot speed, you're not allowed to roll.
> Ever. If you try, she can stuff you with a l.short + big combo and you're
> back on the ground. Since you can't roll, this means every knockdown is
> an opportunity for her to setup her crossup (see 3).
>
> 5) Good AC's, good pokes, decent anti-air.
>
> So basically, when Sakura get's a knockdown she's at an extreme advantage.
> Otherwise, she can play a pretty good straight up game. Charlie isn't
> that great because of drop-thru AC's and the fact that he's a charge
> character. The truly great Ken's, Zan's, Sagat's and Sakura's are MUCH
> more devestating than the great Charlie's I've seen. Probably 3rd tier.
>
Well said! =) I think I also have to add in that it takes practice
and good reflexes to be able to counter your opponent's rolls. After the
fierce DP hits, immediately stick out a low short. If it hits, go into a
standing short into DP again. If the low short doesn't hit(meaning they
didn't roll), you have to go for her crossup ASAP. If you hesitate a bit,
you'll miss her opportunity for her deep crossup which is practically
impossible to block since it's a total guessing game. The properties of
her(and others) crossup are explained in detail in the SFA2 guide by
Versus magazine. But in summary, if a crossup is REALLY deep, you have to
block it as if you were blocking a normal attack from the front and not
the crossup way. If it's a regular crossup that isn't so deep, you have to
block it like the crossup way. This might sound confusing to some of you
and I apologize. I just don't feel like going into detail right now. But
the point I'm trying to make is that Sakura gets to control which way the
opponent has to block. She can do an early crossup or late and the
opponent is helpless to a 50-50 guessing game. If my crossup gets blocked,
I can go into a throw which sets up for another crossup or go into her big
combo if it hits. She can crossup easily after her kick AC. She can do it
after her CC. She has lots of pokes so it isn't that hard to charge up and
get in. Still, the only thing she has going for her is this deadly crossup
game. If she loses that, she sucks big time. This is why she has such a
hardtime against Chun Li and Sagat. You can't crossup Chun Li unless she
is against the corner and it's really hard to crossup Sagat for some
reason.
Since I'm bored, I think I'll put down what I think are A2
rankings. My personal thoughts on the rankings changed a lot over time. I
would have said that Zangief and Dan are the worst a long time ago. Same
with Gen. But as I learned the game more, my opinion totally changed. Here
is what I think:
1st tier:
Ryu, Ken, Rose, Chun
2nd tier:
Zangief, Sakura
3rd tier:
Rolento, Charlie, Sagat, Adon
4th tier
Guy, Akuma, Sodom, Bison, Dhalsim, Gen
5th tier
Dan
6th...no, make that like 10th tier. =)
Birdie
There is a big difference between 1st and 2nd tier and Birdie and
Dan but 3rd and 4th tier are about similar. Flame away...
John
mitchell aldinger
I believe that you can't really rank the characters because each person
has their own way of playing a character. Heck, if I ranked the
characters just by looking at them, Akuma would be the top and Birdie
the bottom. But I have to admit that some characters are just made
better then others. Here is my rankings or I should say me and my
friends rankings.
Top Tier
------------
1) Chun Li
2) Ken
3) Shin Akuma
Second Tier
---------------
4)Ryu
5)Akuma
6)Rolento
7)Dhalsim
8)Guy
Third Tier
---------------
9)Bison
10)Rose
11)Adon
12)Sagat
13)Gen
Fourth Tier
----------------
14)Zangief
15)Sakura
16)Dan
17)Birdie
You can agree or disagree. This is what my group of friends and I have
determined for a ranking.
EViLwebs
Having spent a few days learning to play Charlie, I agree
with you that he is at least upper-middle tier. His combo
ability puts him right up there, when you do his jab, short,
Sonic Boom/Supercombo. His air moves have great priority,
and he has a good all round game which can be played either
defensively or offensively with a tight defense either way.
Okay, his flashkick isn't that great, but good Charlie
actually play an offensive game which utilises the flashkick
very sparingly, so ultimately it doesn't matter.
A Great Charlie combo which isn't as difficult as it
sounds is: jump in attack, standing jab (x1 or x2),
standing short, XX lunging kick superart (level 1),
flashkick superart (level 1 or 2).
12 or 13 hits, and does more damage than any Sakura
combo.
On a more general note, judging from what I've read on
this thread, far too much empahsis has been put on CCs
and ACs imo. Yes, they are a part of the game, but
ultimately all characters have them and all can use
them - it more or less balances out. Far more important
is the basic character design. Stuff like the delay on
Sakura's fireball is, imo, almost cripping against any
ARK and basically leaves her with no chance of 1st or
2nd tier. One cross-up is not going to save you when you
have such a hard time knocking opponents off their feet
that you so rarely get a chance to go for the miracle
combo.
--
Web-Slinger
"I think, our image is really not having one. That is our
image: No image. Which is an image as well, of course."
- Dave Rotheray
N64 Gazetta -- http://www.n64gazetta.com
ICQ -- 2429540
Black Dragon
In article <3523132E...@mindspring.com>, Chocobo
<cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> > Well, I myself think Rolento + Adon are both 6-4 (maybe 5.5-4.5) over
Z. Adon does get burnt on Jag
> > Kicks, but then again... what good Adon will be Jag. Kicking
constantly, if at all?
>
> Of course he won't be doing nothing but Jaguar kicks, but that really
doesn't matter. But basically, Adon's specials are
> pretty much useless, he can do nothing but poke or CC the whole time.
Adon doesn't stand a chance with Gief, and he is weak
> overall.
>
Adon is a poker, yes, but he has long range pokes that can make it
difficult for Gief to get in. The Valle CC is Gief's one advantage over
Adon I've seen. Otherwise, I'd say Adon has a slight advantage.
<Rolento and Dhalsim stuff deleted>
> > Chun just flat out outprioritizes Z in every possible scenario.
>
> 10-0 Chun IMO.
>
> > Ryu/Ken/Evil Ryu wreak all kinds of
> > havoc (although is really like a 6-4 match.. nothing incredible)
>
> I don't know... Gief has a slight disadvantage to Ken, it might be
closer to even with Ryu...
>
> > Sakura has an advantage as well.
>
> I'd like to see one of these good Sakuras... I'll go along with this
since I don't know much about her.
>
What gives Sakura an advantage? I can SPD her with Geif right after a
blocked HK and Dragon Punch. Her variable size FB gives her one
advantage, but her other special moves can be countered easily by Gief.
I'd call it an even fight.
> > The only
> > people Z has any significant advantage on is Birdie, Gen, and Dan. He
fights evenly with the rest of the
> > pack... which would put him in the middle.
>
> Not really. Advantages over Rose (not many characters do), Birdie, Gen,
Dan, Akuma (who really is weak in A2 IMO), Guy, and
> Charlie. Closer fights with Sagat, Sodom, and Bison.
>
Agreed on Birdie, Gen, Dan, Charlie, Guy and Sodom. The rest I'd say Gief
is weaker in.
Black Dragon
John Choi wrote:
> Since I'm bored, I think I'll put down what I think are A2
> rankings. My personal thoughts on the rankings changed a lot over time. I
> would have said that Zangief and Dan are the worst a long time ago. Same
> with Gen. But as I learned the game more, my opinion totally changed. Here
> is what I think:
>
> 1st tier:
> Ryu, Ken, Rose, Chun
>
> 2nd tier:
> Zangief, Sakura
>
> 3rd tier:
> Rolento, Charlie, Sagat, Adon
>
> 4th tier
> Guy, Akuma, Sodom, Bison, Dhalsim, Gen
>
> 5th tier
> Dan
>
> 6th...no, make that like 10th tier. =)
> Birdie
>
> There is a big difference between 1st and 2nd tier and Birdie and
> Dan but 3rd and 4th tier are about similar. Flame away...
>
I dunno. Birdie is worse than Dan because of Dan's jumping short, but he
can hold his own against Guy, Akuma, Sodom and Dhalsim, in my experience.
He can Bull Head through Sim's limbs, he can punch or kick over Akuma's
FBs or air block, then jab Bull Head against Akuma's air FBs if he's
close, he can Bull Head Guy out of his Dashing attacks and get in pretty
easily with his jumping RH, Body Splash, jumping forward and jumping short
and Chain Grab Guy. Same with Sodom, except he can't counter his scrapes.
> John
Chocobo
Black Dragon wrote:
> Adon is a poker, yes, but he has long range pokes that can make it
> difficult for Gief to get in. The Valle CC is Gief's one advantage over
> Adon I've seen. Otherwise, I'd say Adon has a slight advantage.
Once Gief has meter, how is Adon going to do any damage? Adon's pokes aren't
even all that great, they can be stopped by most jabs and shorts. He's really a
weak character, the same situation applies to every fight for him.
> What gives Sakura an advantage? I can SPD her with Geif right after a
> blocked HK and Dragon Punch. Her variable size FB gives her one
> advantage, but her other special moves can be countered easily by Gief.
> I'd call it an even fight.
Well, there's no reason to HK or DP randomly, and get nailed by an SPD.
Supposedly her crossup is the main reason, as well as having good poke attacks.
> > Not really. Advantages over Rose (not many characters do), Birdie, Gen,
> Dan, Akuma (who really is weak in A2 IMO), Guy, and
> > Charlie. Closer fights with Sagat, Sodom, and Bison.
>
> Agreed on Birdie, Gen, Dan, Charlie, Guy and Sodom. The rest I'd say Gief
> is weaker in.
Weaker than Akuma? You just don't give him enough credit...
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
In article <6g3nle$c1n$1...@shell2.ba.best.com>,
Anthony Cannon <pon...@shell2.ba.best.com> wrote:
>In article <6g3lom$e...@er5.rutgers.edu>,
>Peter Talley <pta...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>>Anthony Cannon (pon...@shell2.ba.best.com) wrote:
>
>Bison's AC's are excellent. The punch AC is fast enough to take out
>even very deep jump in attacks, and the kick AC can be used punish
>midrange fireballs (insta-teleport into forward kick).
That -- great ACs -- helps lots, btw.
>>but his scissor super goes through anything and is ultra fast.
>True. But it's a charge super (so it loses a bit of usefulness).
>Great as a wakeup, tho.
Heh.
>Bison's biggest problem is that he doesn't have a high damaging
>CC. IMHO, if you don't have a CC that does big big damage at
>level 1, you can't make it into the 2nd tier. At high levels of
>play, you aren't going to get very many openings and you need to
>take advantage of them. In A2, that means pulling out your biggest
>CC and Bison's is wimpy by comparison.
Well, Bison has the advantage of "creating mistakes" with his SCs,
& I would still put him at 2nd tier. I think he certainly is a stronger
choice than Sakura, crossup or no.
>> Charlie has a hard time with Chun Li and Rose, but he can beat
>>Ken and Ryu with sonic boom supers, short sonic kicks and turtling.
>Charlie's sonic kicks are bait for a drop-thru CC. Again, I don't
Sad.
--
Tired of Student Government Insiders?
Tired of Student Government?
Tired of Students?
Tired? - From ?Students Last?
Jeff Jarlett
John Choi wrote:
(excelent discussion snipped)
>
> 1st tier:
> Ryu, Ken, Rose, Chun
>
> 2nd tier:
> Zangief, Sakura
>
> 3rd tier:
> Rolento, Charlie, Sagat, Adon
>
> 4th tier
> Guy, Akuma, Sodom, Bison, Dhalsim, Gen
>
> 5th tier
> Dan
>
> 6th...no, make that like 10th tier. =)
> Birdie
>
> There is a big difference between 1st and 2nd tier and Birdie and
> Dan but 3rd and 4th tier are about similar. Flame away...
>
> John
I agree with most of that. Now the question is, how do you depower the
top tier and improve the 3rd-6th tiers...
well I think Gief is overrated. 3rd tier at best (in Z2a though)
I am trying not to add anything radical. I could. (well I think Birdie
needs a radical change.
also assume CCs are taken out... (and hopefully airblocking as well)
Birdie- turn his Birdie into a Juggernaut-like headcrush move. (reason-
be more effective, and would make it easy for Birdie to be
intimidating.)
Give him Alex's stomp charge d,u+K for footsie games.
Maybe have a finisher on his headbutts that can be delayed, so he can
counter those who like sticking out low shorts into combo every time he
does it.
Improve priority of jump short vs crouch fierces...
This would make him less sucky.
Dan- give him the autograph toss, otoko michi, and a slding MRK-type
uppercut (no autoguard) He'd still be sucky, but competitive.
Gen- let him dash in Mourning style. Give Hateful style a new move of
some sort as well (can't think of one) My suggestion:
b,f+p palm strike (aka Yang) make snake drill b,f+k
Zangief- give him CE SPD, Mega Gief super for a limited time (not very
useful, but it would be so the Gief players would be happy), faster Bear
Crusher. Return the ST Green Hand.
Sodom- Shinbara catch will catch any mid-level or higher attack.
Adon- allow people to link a jab after a jaguar kick that connects. or
at least make it where Adon recovers first... (so he can combo after if
hella skilled, and not die) Jaguar tooth has instant recovery (cause
priority is garbage, stand strong Ryu beats it every time.)
Bison- restore A1 recovery on scissor kick, make psycho crusher
non-charge so that is a reason to use it outside of combos. or to combo
when walking forward.
Akuma- get rid of red fb motion, make all fb's (including air) red.
(but only adds stun damage, not do any more hit damage). besides his fb
recovery makes his fbs non-abuseable anyways...
Guy- SFA1 Bushin Grab (as in nails crouchers). Allow his z2A super to
be done at any level. make running kicks safe when blocked at the right
range.
Sagat- change normal kicks to ST form. Also allow double juggle
uppercuts like he can do in ST. (I am not trying to emulate ST, it's
just that there were good ideas in that game)
Charlie- make Crossfire Blitz non-charge to give him a little more
offense. Give him a new move (that was in A2 beta)
3p- jab somersault
3k- fierce somersault
(yes, let him borrow a move from Captain America.)
keeps gameplay mostly the same, but adds a little firepower to Charlie.
Also like to see standing RH be changed to the step kick (far) and
standing kick (close) Allow Charlie to have some great combos again.
Rolento- give him a third Stinger Raid super. New standing RH- maybe
something where he kicks sliding up his stick. (can give stinger raid
super by changing take no prisoners to DCT2+P and making that DCT2+K)
Sakura- make her POwer Dunk rip-off (DP+K) knock down. Increase lag on
Haru Ichiban.
Chun- change standing strong to ST close standing strong with less
priority, but linkable. Make none of her special combos other than
lightning kick 2-in-1 into a combo, but let her rising kick be a DP+K to
compensate (maybe allow that to juggle off a standing RH). Supers will
still be comboable. This will make her just as strong but less scrubby)
reduce damage to compensate some more.
Rose- reduce priority on infernal crouching strong. change punch AC to
something a lot less useful
Give her an overhead to compensate. (maybe fwd+rh from z2a as an oh)
Ken- change AC's to roll AC and HK AC. Allow 3rd super from SF3 in the
game. give him the sf3 ground hurricane kick. reduce damage to
compensate here as well.
Ryu- let him have shin shoryuken, but make it as weak as the MSF one.
(in other words, no more damage than any of his other supers). Give him
f+fierce back. However, make his standing strong and crouch fierce less
effective.
I think all of these would probably make the game more balanced, and at
least make the bottom tiers more competitive.
Black Dragon
In article <352697...@unity.ncsu.edu>, Jeff Jarlett
<jpja...@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
I gotta disagree here. Birdie's jump short works fine against crouching
Fierces in my experience. What he needs is : a crouching forward and
crouching RH that go through Sagat's High Tiger Shot and that beats
Zangief's standing Fierce. Speed up his headbutt on his Bull Horn; make
it come out quicker and reach longer so he can hit FBers without getting
uppercutted before he can reach them. I'd leave the Birdie the same,
except make it impossible to recover from the dizzy from the Level 3 The
Birdie. I'd give his crouching strong more priority than Dan's jumping
short so he can compete with him.
He needs a different leaping range for each button with his Leaping Chain
Grab. There is a certain range in Alpha 2 where Birdie's Punch Leaping
Chain Grab misses ( doesn't quite reach the target ) and the Kick Leaping
Chain Grab goes over the opponent. This needs to be fixed by making
Birdie's Leap Chain Grab "smart"; that is, automatically jumping to the
appropriate length to grab his opponent. Birdie's Punch Chain Grabs
should automatically leap to the right distance so long as the opponent is
within half a screen of him; If he's further away than that, Birdie's Kick
Leap Chain Grab should automatically leap to the right distance and throw
his opponent.
> Dan- give him the autograph toss, otoko michi, and a slding MRK-type
> uppercut (no autoguard) He'd still be sucky, but competitive.
>
I'd like to see his unduckable Alpha Gale Kick back, more priority on his
Dragon Punch, and that's about it.
> Gen- let him dash in Mourning style. Give Hateful style a new move of
> some sort as well (can't think of one) My suggestion:
> b,f+p palm strike (aka Yang) make snake drill b,f+k
>
> Zangief- give him CE SPD, Mega Gief super for a limited time (not very
> useful, but it would be so the Gief players would be happy), faster Bear
> Crusher. Return the ST Green Hand.
>
I'd like to see the Bear Crusher faster and with SFA2G distance, but make
it connect the instant Gief reaches his opponent, as opposed to running in
place for a sec, THEN throwing!!! :P
> Sodom- Shinbara catch will catch any mid-level or higher attack.
>
He could use that, plus he needs a strong Jitte Slice that knocks any
opponents out of the air if they jump from a distance ( from more than 1/3
of a screen away ). Make his Jab Jitte Slice hit twice ( as in Alpha ).
He also needs a longer, faster slide that can be done on reaction to a
close FB ( without getting nailed by the FB ) and travels a little over a
third of the screen. Lastly, he needs his Power Bomb to go over low
attacks like Ryu's low forward and RH and Rolento's low RH slide. Make it
an anti-trip move in addition to a special throw.
> Adon- allow people to link a jab after a jaguar kick that connects. or
> at least make it where Adon recovers first... (so he can combo after if
> hella skilled, and not die) Jaguar tooth has instant recovery (cause
> priority is garbage, stand strong Ryu beats it every time.)
>
I'd make Adon's Jag Tooth have priority over all ground moves and remove
it's recovery ( people can still counter it with a jumping move if it
comes close to them ). I'd change the recovery on his Jaguar Kicks, too;
If he hits with a Jaguar Kick, there is no recovery time and he can
continue trapping his opponent or jump away. If it's blocked, he has
recovery time as in Alpha 2.
> Bison- restore A1 recovery on scissor kick, make psycho crusher
> non-charge so that is a reason to use it outside of combos. or to combo
> when walking forward.
>
I'd make it easier to combo into the scissor knee ( as back in Alpha 1 ).
I'd keep Bison's Psycho Crusher the way it is but make it easier to land
all hits.
> Akuma- get rid of red fb motion, make all fb's (including air) red.
> (but only adds stun damage, not do any more hit damage). besides his fb
> recovery makes his fbs non-abuseable anyways...
>
I'd get rid of his worthless roll, and make his Hurricane Kick and Dragon
Punch miss low kicks, enabling opponents to get past them.
> Guy- SFA1 Bushin Grab (as in nails crouchers). Allow his z2A super to
> be done at any level. make running kicks safe when blocked at the right
> range.
>
Agreed.
> Sagat- change normal kicks to ST form. Also allow double juggle
> uppercuts like he can do in ST. (I am not trying to emulate ST, it's
> just that there were good ideas in that game)
>
I'd make Sagat's standing kicks double hit again. He doesn't need to
juggle two uppercuts in a row; He's powerful enough. I'd make it his
Tiger Knee hit twice always except against jumpers and crouchers and make
it go over FBs as in SF2.
> Charlie- make Crossfire Blitz non-charge to give him a little more
> offense. Give him a new move (that was in A2 beta)
> 3p- jab somersault
> 3k- fierce somersault
> (yes, let him borrow a move from Captain America.)
> keeps gameplay mostly the same, but adds a little firepower to Charlie.
> Also like to see standing RH be changed to the step kick (far) and
> standing kick (close) Allow Charlie to have some great combos again.
>
Change the motion for his Somersault Justice, too. It's impossible to do!!! :P
> Rolento- give him a third Stinger Raid super. New standing RH- maybe
> something where he kicks sliding up his stick. (can give stinger raid
> super by changing take no prisoners to DCT2+P and making that DCT2+K)
>
I'd give him a Baton-Beating super where he does several spinning baton
attacks, hitting a huge number of times (13 at level 1, 16 level 2, 20
level 3 ). I'd make his Stingers more powerful; they can only be knocked
away by Fierce and RH attacks; No more jabbing away Stingers. I'd like to
see a new standing forward, too; Like his standing RH, but hitting at
stomach level, about. Make it possible to combo into 3 Patriot circles
after his new standing Forward.
> Sakura- make her POwer Dunk rip-off (DP+K) knock down. Increase lag on
> Haru Ichiban.
>
It does knock down. It should hit overhead and it needs to lose the
recovery. Someone suggested on #capcom EFNet that she should be able to
keep bouncing off objects after the FB; For instance, jump off of a FB,
then off of the FBers head. I like this idea.
> Chun- change standing strong to ST close standing strong with less
> priority, but linkable. Make none of her special combos other than
> lightning kick 2-in-1 into a combo, but let her rising kick be a DP+K to
> compensate (maybe allow that to juggle off a standing RH). Supers will
> still be comboable. This will make her just as strong but less scrubby)
> reduce damage to compensate some more.
>
I like her Rising Kick's motion the way it is. Otherwise, I like.
> Rose- reduce priority on infernal crouching strong. change punch AC to
> something a lot less useful
> Give her an overhead to compensate. (maybe fwd+rh from z2a as an oh)
>
> Ken- change AC's to roll AC and HK AC. Allow 3rd super from SF3 in the
> game. give him the sf3 ground hurricane kick. reduce damage to
> compensate here as well.
>
I'd get rid of ACs altogether, as well as CCs.
> Ryu- let him have shin shoryuken, but make it as weak as the MSF one.
> (in other words, no more damage than any of his other supers). Give him
> f+fierce back. However, make his standing strong and crouch fierce less
> effective.
>
F + Fierce? What does he do in this? Is this from SSF2T?
teve...@pacbell.net
Great suggestions, Jeff. Just got one beef wit'cha.
Jeff Jarlett wrote:
>
> Chun- change standing strong to ST close standing strong with less
> priority, but linkable. Make none of her special combos other than
> lightning kick 2-in-1 into a combo, but let her rising kick be a DP+K to
> compensate (maybe allow that to juggle off a standing RH). Supers will
> still be comboable. This will make her just as strong but less scrubby)
> reduce damage to compensate some more.
All that isn't necessary, really. This is the main thing:
Make the Kikkoken a charge move. This alone will get rid of the poking
game that made her so good in A2.
In fact, make her a charge character all around, like she was in Super,
ST, and A1. In those games, she wasn't anywhere as good as she is in
A2. Charging is why.
That's all.
> Ken- change AC's to roll AC and HK AC. Allow 3rd super from SF3 in the
> game. give him the sf3 ground hurricane kick. reduce damage to
> compensate here as well.
I LOVE this suggestion. It's perfect. :) Tricky Krazy Ken shall live
again!! :)
Onaje
('cause I'm still a fool for the old school.)
Douglas Leonard
Castellan wrote in message <6frnl5$8n3$1...@artemis.backbone.ou.edu>...
>svil...@crystald.com writes:
>
>>Someone please explain to me why Rolento is considered 3rd tier??? (and
bottom
>>3rd tier, at that) As a Rolento player (and not half bad, at that ;)), my
>>opinion is that he's EASILY 2nd tier, with a good chance against almost
any
>>other character across the board. Not the best, but certainly not
anywhere
>>near that far down. Have these guys seen ANY good Rolento players, so
they
>>have something to base these rankings on???
>
> Yeah, I gotta agree, here - Rolento is my #1 man in A2, and I've had
>win streaks of up to 16-20 here in Norman, against some not-unskilled ARK
>players. True, I have yet to meet a formidable Chun (I'd'a thought that
>with the high scrub presence here, she'd be a natural choice), but if
>Rolento were truly third-tier, I wouldn't be winning as much as I do. Of
>course, Rolento, with his various Mekon Escapes, is a FB/DP trappers
>worst nightmare, and I see a LOT of that here...
Just thought I'd voice my agreement here. I can't play Rolento worth a
crap, but I've met some players that can kick my ass with him, and I'm
pretty damn good with most of the characters. I love watching the Ken/Ryu
cloners get their butts kicked by a good Rolento. Capcom did some good
design work on him to make a lot of old school strategies unworkable against
him.
<DL>
Tom Cannon
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980403...@dogbert.ucdavis.edu>,
John Choi <ez06...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
[snip]
> Since I'm bored, I think I'll put down what I think are A2
>rankings. My personal thoughts on the rankings changed a lot over time. I
>would have said that Zangief and Dan are the worst a long time ago. Same
>with Gen. But as I learned the game more, my opinion totally changed. Here
>is what I think:
>
>1st tier:
>Ryu, Ken, Rose, Chun
>
>2nd tier:
>Zangief, Sakura
>
>3rd tier:
>Rolento, Charlie, Sagat, Adon
>
>4th tier
>Guy, Akuma, Sodom, Bison, Dhalsim, Gen
>
>5th tier
>Dan
>
>6th...no, make that like 10th tier. =)
>Birdie
>
YES! Birdie is the WORST! THE WORST I tell you!
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
disgruntled ex-Birdie player
svil...@crystald.com
[snizzip]
> >1st tier:
> >Ryu, Ken, Rose, Chun
> >
> >2nd tier:
> >Zangief, Sakura
> >
> >3rd tier:
> >Rolento, Charlie, Sagat, Adon
> >
> >4th tier
> >Guy, Akuma, Sodom, Bison, Dhalsim, Gen
> >
> >5th tier
> >Dan
> >
> >6th...no, make that like 10th tier. =)
> >Birdie
> >
>
> YES! Birdie is the WORST! THE WORST I tell you!
>
> ---
> Tom Cannon
> web...@inked.com
> disgruntled ex-Birdie player
>
YAAAYYYYY! John put Rolento in a real position, not any stupid 4th tier crap.
(I still think he's 2nd tier, but that's just me)
Sam Villanueva
svil...@crystald.com
proud AssHolento player
(closet Chun-Li player)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
bea...@math.jussieu.fr
> I agree with most of that. Now the question is, how do you depower the
> top tier and improve the 3rd-6th tiers...
> Sodom- Shinbara catch will catch any mid-level or higher attack.
The only thing that can fix sodom imho is take out CC's. Then he's great. Does
well against everyone except Rose (and her puch AC).
-Julien
EViLwebs
Anthony Cannon wrote:
>
> In article <352591...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this>,
> EViLwebs <sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this> wrote:
>
> [chomp]
>
> >A Great Charlie combo which isn't as difficult as it
> >sounds is: jump in attack, standing jab (x1 or x2),
> >standing short, XX lunging kick superart (level 1),
> >flashkick superart (level 1 or 2).
> >12 or 13 hits, and does more damage than any Sakura
> >combo.
>
> l.rh, repeated strong uppers, fierce upper will do more
> damage than this and is easier to land. I bet a Sakura
> j.fierce, c.fierce, lvl 2 spin kick will do just as much,
> too.
>
Okay, so if you only have 1 lvl of meter then just forget
about the last flashkick super. Still does a truckload of
damage.
<lots of stuff snipped>
I can respect your views on CCs, but for me I still
have to go with SCs over CCs, for the main reason that
they can be comboed. This is their main advantage -
characters with close chains/links like Ken, Akuma & Charlie
can make the most of their supermeter and put themselves
near the top of the rankings by virtue of the fact that
if they land a combo at close range they can turn it
into an supercombo extension for huge damage, if not
they simple tack on a special move to leave themselves
safe.
Even with the Valle CC, in my
experience CC-ing is very much a hit 'n miss affair on
anything other than someone landing from a whiffed DP.
If you start to rely too much on CCs to do the damage
then you'll be blocked - there is enough time from
1/3rd distance that you can react to someone activating
a CC and block it, and it gets as easy as pie once
you fall into the trap of CCing whenever you're within
range to do so. If your CC is blocked you're going to
get ACed.
In my experience, you can land CCs on the CPU with
regularity, but no way on an intelligent human opponent.
>
> --
> Tony Cannon
> pon...@best.com
Erik Cohen
EViLwebs wrote:
> I can respect your views on CCs, but for me I still
> have to go with SCs over CCs, for the main reason that
> they can be comboed. This is their main advantage -
> characters with close chains/links like Ken, Akuma & Charlie
> can make the most of their supermeter and put themselves
> near the top of the rankings by virtue of the fact that
> if they land a combo at close range they can turn it
> into an supercombo extension for huge damage, if not
> they simple tack on a special move to leave themselves
> safe.
> Even with the Valle CC, in my
> experience CC-ing is very much a hit 'n miss affair on
> anything other than someone landing from a whiffed DP.
>
What? You obviously aren't/haven't seen the Valle CCexecuted
correctly. Within (actually right outside of)
sweep distance, if you opp. stands up, they get CC'd.
When you activate the CC, there is a flash and a moment
in which the opposing player is unable to block.
As Mr. Cannon pointed out previously, as a victim the
only defense you have is to a)CC back or b)reversal
special move that is invulnerable in the first frame eg.
Ryu's strong DP.
> If you start to rely too much on CCs to do the damage
> then you'll be blocked - there is enough time from
> 1/3rd distance that you can react to someone activating
> a CC and block it, and it gets as easy as pie once
> you fall into the trap of CCing whenever you're within
> range to do so. If your CC is blocked you're going to
> get ACed.
>
You can't "block" it when executed correctly. See above.
> In my experience, you can land CCs on the CPU with
> regularity, but no way on an intelligent human opponent.
>
Play me.
Erik
Eminently Bored
Birdie's the worst,huh. Thats because you haven't seen a real birdie,
meaning mine. Exactly where do you live?
teve...@pacbell.net
Eminently Bored wrote:
>
> Birdie's the worst,huh. Thats because you haven't seen a real birdie,
> meaning mine. Exactly where do you live?
You're a newbie, aren't you?
You must be...because anyone with any sense that's been on this newgroup
for a decent amount of time KNOWS that Tom Cannon has seen the BEST
Birdies...and he's got a good one, too.
If only there was a SFA2 tournament around.
Of course, your Birdie might be good....but I'm doubting you do anything
that people like Tom Cannon or Bob Painter (another all-round good
Birdie player) or just about anybody else on this newsgroup don't
already do....and they all agree that Birdie's the worst.
So.....where's your proof? That's another thing. Anybody who's anybody
actually backs up statements with facts. Typing a general statement and
then leaving just doesn't do much for your credibility....though you get
points for challenging a SF veteran.
Onaje
('cause it's wise to know who you're talking to before you respond.)
Eminently Bored
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 teve...@pacbell.net wrote:
> You're a newbie, aren't you?
>
> You must be...because anyone with any sense that's been on this newgroup
> for a decent amount of time KNOWS that Tom Cannon has seen the BEST
> Birdies...and he's got a good one, too.
>
> If only there was a SFA2 tournament around.
>
> Of course, your Birdie might be good....but I'm doubting you do anything
> that people like Tom Cannon or Bob Painter (another all-round good
> Birdie player) or just about anybody else on this newsgroup don't
> already do....and they all agree that Birdie's the worst.
>
> So.....where's your proof? That's another thing. Anybody who's anybody
> actually backs up statements with facts. Typing a general statement and
> then leaving just doesn't do much for your credibility....though you get
> points for challenging a SF veteran.
>
> Onaje
> ('cause it's wise to know who you're talking to before you respond.)
>
>
I may be new to this newsgroup, but I am in no way new to any SF game.
Spare me your "points" for challenging a veteran, because I am one, and
yes, my Birdie is simply amazing. Shame there isn't a tournament. Thats
where the real proof would be. But besides that I was at work at the time I
posted, hence the short text. I am again, so I'll keep this short and
sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
fierce. When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
What's the problem.
Student
> I may be new to this newsgroup, but I am in no way new to any SF game.
> Spare me your "points" for challenging a veteran, because I am one, and
> yes, my Birdie is simply amazing. Shame there isn't a tournament. Thats
> where the real proof would be. But besides that I was at work at the time I
> posted, hence the short text. I am again, so I'll keep this short and
> sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
> advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
> fierce. When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
> time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
> What's the problem.
If you want to prove yourself just show up in chicago june 27-28. There's
going to be tournaments for many sf games and usually the competition is
pretty good. I'll have to agree with everyone else, Birdie pretty much
sucks so if you have any game show up and prove everyone wrong.
-wes
Tom Cannon
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980416124...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
Eminently Bored <pro...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU> wrote:
[snip]
>Perhaps you don't know who you are talking to.
>
>I may be new to this newsgroup, but I am in no way new to any SF game.
>Spare me your "points" for challenging a veteran, because I am one, and
>yes, my Birdie is simply amazing. Shame there isn't a tournament. Thats
>where the real proof would be. But besides that I was at work at the time I
>posted, hence the short text.
Your first post was ridiculous. This one is worth responding to. =)
>I am again, so I'll keep this short and
>sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
>advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
>fierce.
Slowly advance is right, because Birdie's ground speed is pathetic.
This simply doesn't work against anyone with a decent CC. Birdie is too
slow to surprise anyone with his ground game. The instant he stands up
to advance within sweep range he is subject to a CC. Birdie can't advance
within sweep range with a headbutt or a TAH either -- both leave him
vunerable to CCs afterwards (yes, even the jab one).
>When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
>time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
>What's the problem.
The problem is probably that whoever you're playing isn't very good.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Eminently Bored
On 16 Apr 1998, Tom Cannon wrote:
> >Perhaps you don't know who you are talking to.
>
> Your first post was ridiculous. This one is worth responding to. =)
>
Spare me.
> >I am again, so I'll keep this short and
> >sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
> >advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
> >fierce.
>
> Slowly advance is right, because Birdie's ground speed is pathetic.
> This simply doesn't work against anyone with a decent CC. Birdie is too
> slow to surprise anyone with his ground game. The instant he stands up
> to advance within sweep range he is subject to a CC. Birdie can't advance
> within sweep range with a headbutt or a TAH either -- both leave him
> vunerable to CCs afterwards (yes, even the jab one).
>
I disagree. If the jab one is timed properly you can bounce back away
from your opponnent which does not leave you vulnerable to a CC.
> >When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
> >time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
> >What's the problem.
> The problem is probably that whoever you're playing isn't very good.
Spare me again. Perhaps you would like to think that no one here in NYC
can play, but I and many others would beg to differ. Or perhaps I play
in a totally different way than you? The arrogance on this ng is
sometimes surprising, like we have seen all there is to see. Un
believable.
Eminently Bored
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Student wrote:
>
> > I may be new to this newsgroup, but I am in no way new to any SF game.
> > Spare me your "points" for challenging a veteran, because I am one, and
> > yes, my Birdie is simply amazing. Shame there isn't a tournament. Thats
> > where the real proof would be. But besides that I was at work at the time I
> > posted, hence the short text. I am again, so I'll keep this short and
> > sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
> > advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
> > fierce. When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
> > time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
> > What's the problem.
>
> If you want to prove yourself just show up in chicago june 27-28. There's
> going to be tournaments for many sf games and usually the competition is
> pretty good. I'll have to agree with everyone else, Birdie pretty much
> sucks so if you have any game show up and prove everyone wrong.
> -wes
>
>
email me the info and I'll be there.
Ultima
Useless factor: Low
Rambling factor: Lowish
Warning: Read at your own discretion
************************************
Eminently Bored wrote:
[Birdie stuff SLASHed - I'm not much of a Birdie player]
> Perhaps you would like to think that no one here in NYC
> can play, but I and many others would beg to differ.
NYC, eh? I and a few others from this NG are located on LI. Perhaps
you'd be interested in meeting. Erik, back me up; I'm not too good at
giving directions :p
[snip]
> The arrogance on this ng is sometimes surprising, like we have seen all there is to see. Unbelievable.
*Sometimes* surprising? It still is even after being here for 10 months.
Problem is, they probably *have* seen virtually all there is to see. It
doesn't necessarily give anyone the right to be arrogant, but they do
get the benefit of the doubt. You have to prove your case to them, not
the other way around.. Bleah...
Tom Cannon
In article <3536AE...@concentric.net>,
Ultima <ult...@concentric.net> wrote:
[chomp]
>> The arrogance on this ng is sometimes surprising, like we have seen all there is to see. Unbelievable.
>
>*Sometimes* surprising? It still is even after being here for 10 months.
>Problem is, they probably *have* seen virtually all there is to see. It
>doesn't necessarily give anyone the right to be arrogant, but they do
>get the benefit of the doubt. You have to prove your case to them, not
>the other way around.. Bleah...
>
More specifically Ultima, you have to prove your point period. Look back
in this thread -- you'll see that I list more than a dozen specific
gameplay-related reasons why Birdie is a poor character in A2. Forgive me
if I'm impatient with two-line retorts seasoned with personal attacks.
In other threads you have been at a disadvantage because the side of the
case against you has been proven long before you got here. Nevertheless,
this stuff didn't become accepted alt.games.sf2 opinion out of thin air.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Tom Cannon
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.980416163...@hejira.hunter.cuny.edu>,
[snip]
>>
>> Slowly advance is right, because Birdie's ground speed is pathetic.
>> This simply doesn't work against anyone with a decent CC. Birdie is too
>> slow to surprise anyone with his ground game. The instant he stands up
>> to advance within sweep range he is subject to a CC. Birdie can't advance
>> within sweep range with a headbutt or a TAH either -- both leave him
>> vunerable to CCs afterwards (yes, even the jab one).
>>
>
>I disagree. If the jab one is timed properly you can bounce back away
>from your opponnent which does not leave you vulnerable to a CC.
>
You're half right. If you space the jab headbutt PERFECTLY (it has nothing
to do with timing) then Birdie is safe. The spacing for this is quite
precise, but hey, let's assume that you can do it 100% and your oppoent
doesn't AC you. Big freaking deal. You've taken off a sliver of damage,
and Birdie is at a range where he still cannot effectively attack. This is
not an effective way to approach your opponent, and Birdie has literally no
long range game.
So tell me, oh wise sage, how does Birdie approach a defensive opponent?
And please do better than "poke with strong and forward" as these are both
slow, mid-range attacks that do not set up any kind of real offense.
>
>> >When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
>> >time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
>> >What's the problem.
>
>> The problem is probably that whoever you're playing isn't very good.
>
>Spare me again. Perhaps you would like to think that no one here in NYC
>can play, but I and many others would beg to differ. Or perhaps I play
>in a totally different way than you? The arrogance on this ng is
>sometimes surprising, like we have seen all there is to see. Un
>believable.
Ok, I tried really hard not to flame you last time, but this is just too
much. You're entire argument is "when they open up they get hit by
whatever I feel like at the time." This is beyond vague. Poking with
strong, forward, and the INSANELY slow standing fierce is not an offense,
it's a recipe for suicide. Anyone who dies to this is either a scrub or
just has almost zero experience against Birdie.
In previous posts in this thread I went into great detail explaining why
IMHO Birdie is dead last in Alpha2. You've responded with simplistic,
two-line "strategies" and irrelevant, ad-hominem whining. So please,
either give some sort of meaningful explanation of your mysterious Birdie
techniques or quietly go away. I'm willing to have a valid discussion on
this topic, but I won't entertain these wishy-washy, fortune-cookie
strategy snippets.
I'll make it very, very easy for you.
SCENARIO
-------------
Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
"hit them when they open up."
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Ryan Roullard
> SCENARIO
> -------------
> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
>
> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
> "hit them when they open up."
Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
-Ryan
Ultima
Useless factor: So-So
Rambling factor: High
Warning: Read at your own discretion
************************************
Tom Cannon wrote:
>
> In article <3536AE...@concentric.net>,
> Ultima <ult...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> [chomp]
>
> >> The arrogance on this ng is sometimes surprising, like we have seen all there is to see. Unbelievable.
> >
> >*Sometimes* surprising? It still is even after being here for 10 months. Problem is, they probably *have* seen virtually all there is to see. It doesn't necessarily give anyone the right to be arrogant, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. You have to prove your case to them, not the other way around.. Bleah...
> >
>
> More specifically Ultima, you have to prove your point period. Look back in this thread -- you'll see that I list more than a dozen specific
> gameplay-related reasons why Birdie is a poor character in A2. Forgive me if I'm impatient with two-line retorts seasoned with personal attacks.
No problem here. You have every right to be impatient with two-line
retorts seasoned with personal attacks (with emphasis on the
"seasoned").
> In other threads you have been at a disadvantage because the side of the case against you has been proven long before you got here. Nevertheless, this stuff didn't become accepted alt.games.sf2 opinion out of thin air.
Aye, true. It's just a little unfair sometimes - I remeber when I first
came here last June or so, I remember posting a pseudo 100% combo for
Ken in SF3. Problem was, I didn't take into account that the game has
been released and had been playud about 6 weeks before I even SAW the
damn game, so my "info" was about 3 months too late. But the game was
still relatively new to me then, while in other areas people were
already fed up of it. D'oh...
It's hard to challenge accepted opinion, or even to discuss certain
topics, because it's all been done to death long, long before. *sigh*
Y'know, somebody really ought to write a FAQ for this place. Include
untouchable topics like "Birdie is dead last in SFA2, and that's all
there is to it" and stuff.. :p
Peter Talley
Eminently Bored (pro...@hejira.Hunter.CUNY.EDU) wrote:
: I may be new to this newsgroup, but I am in no way new to any SF game.
: Spare me your "points" for challenging a veteran, because I am one, and
: yes, my Birdie is simply amazing. Shame there isn't a tournament. Thats
: where the real proof would be. But besides that I was at work at the time I
: posted, hence the short text. I am again, so I'll keep this short and
: sweet for you. Birdie can out range almost anyone, so I just slowly
: advance while using low forwards, low strongs, and an occasional standing
: fierce. When they open up they get hit by whatever I feel like at the
: time. I use most of my super energy for ACs. Everything else is basic.
: What's the problem.
Come to the tournament in May. It's in NJ, so you won't have to
travel far to get your ass beat. From what I've seen, Birdie is shit,
so you actually suck and just think you are good. Go to this web page
for the info:
www.fastwww.com/thebreak
I don't need a SF code.
nicholas louis rogal
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Wenchi Liao wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980416...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,
> Silly! all you have to do is anticipate the inevitable jab and jump 'em
> with the chain super. duh...
>
> WL
Yea and if your playing a ryu who is that worthless to throw a
fireball at half screen against birdie with a level charged, you have
nothing to worry about.
NR
>
>
teve...@pacbell.net
Ryan Roullard wrote:
>
> > SCENARIO
> > -------------
> > Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
> > one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
> >
> > What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
> > "hit them when they open up."
>
> Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
> super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
What did Tom say? DON'T say, "Hit them when they open up."
You just said that. What if the Ryu/Ken player does nothing? The
Ryu/Ken player IS ahead, afterall.
Onaje
('cause it helps when you READ what is typed...and it's frustrating to
deal with people that don't do that.)
VGO Ken
>Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
>super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
Uh, hate to stick my nose where it doesn't belong but quite frankly, he said
give an in-depth strategy, not a simple small answer.....
Anyways, any decent Ken or Ryu player would expect a Bull Revenger (zat the
name?) from full screen and wouldn't chuck an FB. Anyways, FBs are almost
totally useless in A2. Why even waste the time?
Aw, what do I care, I personally *hate* A2.
I'll stick with ST, MSH, but A2 is a fad I never caught onto....
_________________________________________
(Eu)Gene Kern
Vortex Gaming Online
Senior Editor/Game Counselor
www.vortexonline.com
"Personal mistakes are one's greatest teacher."
"Bickerings are won with physical strength, but wars are won with wits."
Wenchi Liao
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980416...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,
Ryan Roullard <n954...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>> SCENARIO
>> -------------
>> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
>> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
>>
>> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
>> "hit them when they open up."
>
>super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
Silly! all you have to do is anticipate the inevitable jab and jump 'em
with the chain super. duh...
WL
Wenchi Liao
In article <3536D4...@concentric.net>,
Ultima <ult...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Y'know, somebody really ought to write a FAQ for this place. Include
>untouchable topics like "Birdie is dead last in SFA2, and that's all
>there is to it" and stuff.. :p
Or, lurk a bit or read dejanews.
WL
Kevin Eav
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980416...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>, Ryan Roullard <n954...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>> SCENARIO
>> -------------
>> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
>> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
>>
>> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
>> "hit them when they open up."
>
> Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
>super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
>
I'm no SF master; I'm no SFA2 master. I'm not one of the old masters like
Tom who -do- know this much 'bout the game... but this strategy is
invalid, for one simple reason. You're assuming Ken and Ryu are -going-
to throw a fireball--and they don't -have- to. You have to build this
strategy around -your- being active, not your being -reactive-, otherwise
said Ken or Ryu can stand there all day while you wait for the fireball
that will never come. Hypothetically.
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Jeff Jarlett
> SCENARIO
> -------------
> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
>
> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
> "hit them when they open up."
Jump-in an do a CC, praying that they stuck out a normal instead of
Dp'ing?
Walk forward and try to anticipate a Valle CC and counter-CC it and try
to insta bull-revenger if they throw a FB?
Either way it is pretty bleak...
Ryan Roullard
On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 teve...@pacbell.net wrote:
> Ryan Roullard wrote:
> >
> > > SCENARIO
> > > -------------
> > > Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
> > > one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
> > >
> > > What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
> > > "hit them when they open up."
> >
> > Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
> > super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
>
> What did Tom say? DON'T say, "Hit them when they open up."
>
> You just said that. What if the Ryu/Ken player does nothing? The
> Ryu/Ken player IS ahead, afterall.
>
> Onaje
> ('cause it helps when you READ what is typed...and it's frustrating to
> deal with people that don't do that.)
>
You don't have to WAIT for them to open up. You can lull them into
tossing a fireball by faking them out. You could act like you are trying
to do a super repeatedly but it's "not coming out." Complain about the
controller. Either of these would likely get a fireball coming
your way. Backing up to a FULL screen away would probably instigate the
ryu/ken to toss a fireball your way, too.
I imagine the ryu/ken player COULD just sit and do nothing, but
most of the ryu/ken players I've fought in a typical arcade setting are
attack hungry scrubs. And if it's so frustrating to deal with people like
me, why the fuck did you even reply? Masochism?
-Ryan
Darien Allen
> You don't have to WAIT for them to open up. You can lull them into
> tossing a fireball by faking them out. You could act like you are trying
> to do a super repeatedly but it's "not coming out." Complain about the
> controller. Either of these would likely get a fireball coming
> your way. Backing up to a FULL screen away would probably instigate the
> ryu/ken to toss a fireball your way, too.
> I imagine the ryu/ken player COULD just sit and do nothing, but
> most of the ryu/ken players I've fought in a typical arcade setting are
> attack hungry scrubs. And if it's so frustrating to deal with people like
> me, why the fuck did you even reply? Masochism?
I didn't realize this thread was in regards to playing against
scrubs...Hell I don't even PLAY the SF series anymore and I know when
Birdie's meter is up not to do any fireball throwing from a
distance....and I SUCK nowadays...I'm sure the GOOD Ken/Ryu
players(which I believe the original poster was comparing themselves
too), would know about the capabilities of Birdie and adjust their
fireball style accordingly....
-----------------------------
Darien Allen ICQ: 2927081
Digital Ages
www.digital-ages.com
Reviewer, PSX Unlimited
Mailbag Editor, N64 Unlimited
Remove TAKETHISOUT to reply
"To fear me....is to fear death itself..."
-----------------------------
Tom Cannon
In article <ErJE6...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
Wenchi Liao <wl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.980416...@titan.cc.wwu.edu>,
>>> SCENARIO
>>> -------------
>>> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
>>> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
>>>
>>> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
>>> "hit them when they open up."
>>
>> Anticipate the inevitable fireball and jump 'em with the chain
>>super. He leaps all the way across the screen, IIRC.
>
>with the chain super. duh...
>
I was hoping someone would say this. By "jab" I hope you mean
a standing jab attack, as in a light punch. If you're talking about a
jab fireball, then that's a bogus case, as others have mentioned. Only
a very foolish or unattentive Ryu/Ken will throw any kind of fireball when
Birdie is so far away with meter charged.
Grabbing a jab with Birdie's hopping chain grab is impossible on reaction.
Even if Birdie activates the grab on the same frame that the jab starts,
the jab has time to recover and Ryu/Ken can escape the chain grab with
a CC. Note that they CANNOT jump to escape the chain grab in this and
many other situations, which is why the grab seems like such a great move
at first.
So really, if you want to grab someone out of a move you either have to
anticipate the move (a risky proposition), or you have to wait on a move
with more execution time like a low forward or whatever. Why Ryu/Ken
would be throwing out low forwards from so far away is beyond me. I
suppose they could be charging meter, but that's a very silly way to do it
when a jump back, HK would leave them totally safe.
This answer gets points, but it's too risky to use reliably. =)
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Kao Megura
> It's hard to challenge accepted opinion, or even to discuss certain
> topics, because it's all been done to death long, long before. *sigh*
>
> Y'know, somebody really ought to write a FAQ for this place. Include
> untouchable topics like "Birdie is dead last in SFA2, and that's all
> there is to it" and stuff.. :p
>
Actually, I suppose I should air out some stuff now.
There are far too many people on this group who know a lot about SF, and
because of this, they are unbelievably arrogant. I mean, to the point
where it gets ridiculous at times. I'm not trying to point a finger, I'm
just saying, these people know who they are. So why don't you guys accept
that not everyone is at 'your level' and don't criticise them on every
concievably debatable point.
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but there are people on this
group who just shoot down everyone who disagrees with them. Guys, you're
not playing a SF game at that moment, you're typing or reading. Go test
what is said on a machine and then decide if it's _that_ inconcievable. I
have a lot more respect for the people who are obvious SF masters and don't
go around blowing their own horn (James Chen is one of them).
That doesn't relate to this thread (I think Tom Cannon is right to a
degree, although Ultima, you have a good point), but I just had to say it.
TC, why don't you try switching sides and thinking of an answer to your own
scenario? Is there really NO way for Birdie to get the advantage? The way
this argument is going, it's like saying that any character who sucks can't
win, period (which leaves Dan players like myself in deep water).
And let's try to remember that 80% of all challengers you fight are not
game masters and probably would be throwing jab fireballs from far away.
Just because you "technically" couldn't win with Birdie doesn't mean that
in the game, you'll automatically lose once Ryu is ahead of you. People
err, your opponent could start trash-talking you to make you mess up, that
kind of stuff _happens_. It's not some perfect match played between two
flawless players.
Damn, that felt good.
-K. M.
_____________________________________________________________________
KM's site: http://kao.home.ml.org. Visit the Dan Hibiki Shrine!
- Disciple of Dan Hibiki.
- Posts infrequently.
- Says 'Yahooey!' far too often.
_____________________________________________________________________
Tom Cannon
In article <cgfm2-ya02408000...@news.hooked.net>,
Kao Megura <cg...@hooked.net> wrote:
>In article <3536D4...@concentric.net>, ult...@concentric.net wrote:
>
[snip]
>That doesn't relate to this thread (I think Tom Cannon is right to a
>degree, although Ultima, you have a good point), but I just had to say it.
>TC, why don't you try switching sides and thinking of an answer to your own
>scenario? Is there really NO way for Birdie to get the advantage? The way
>this argument is going, it's like saying that any character who sucks can't
>win, period (which leaves Dan players like myself in deep water).
>
Ok KM...that's fair. I'll play devil's advocate with myself and play out
the scenario.
THE QUESTION
--------------
For late-comers, the scenario is this: Birdie is behind in life and is
about 1/2 the screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have 1 level of
meter. How does Birdie get the advantage agian?
MY ANSWER
-----------
Any reasonable answer has to assume that Ryu/Ken isn't stupid and isn't
going to make a rookie mistake. This is why (as so many people have pointed
out) waiting for a FB and then doing the hop super isn't a reaonsable
answer.
So what would work? Well, the best solution is to jump (yes, jump).
Birdie can jump in and NOT attack -- just wait to see what Ryu/Ken does.
From 1/2 the screen away Birdie can't be taken out with a DP.
The best thing that will happen for Birdie is Ryu/Ken will meet him in the
air and try to take him out of his jumping attack. Because Birdie didn't
attack, he will air block and the two of you will land fairly close to each
other. Whoopie! Birdie is now at a range where he can really be effective
with his grabs, his fast RH overhead, etc.
But what if Ryu/Ken doesn't jump attack? Ryu/Ken's best response to Birdie's
jump is to either force Birdie to land on a FB, or to low RH into a FB when
Birdie comes down.
If they low RH, then Birdie has a tiny, tiny window where he can stick a
hopping grab in between the low RH and the FB. This is not at all easy
to do, but it looks pretty neat if you can pull it off. If you miss, you're
going to eat a blocked FB and be put right where you started.
If Ryu/Ken does nothing then Birdie has placed himself in Valle CC range
and is at a BIG disadvantage. Birdie can't stand up or he risks getting
CCed. He can't headbutt because Ryu/Ken can retaliate with (guess what) a
CC.
At this point the safest thing for Birdie to do is to poke with a low
forward. This will push him out of low RH range so he can stand up without
being raped by a CC.
WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION IN THE FIRST PLACE
---------------------------------------------
Guess what? As far as I can see, there is no good answer to this question
That's why I posed it. It's a very simple illustration of why Birdie is
a weak character against a skilled opponent.
Birdie simply has no truly effective way to close the gap from mid-range
(inside sweep range) to close range, where he can let lose with the grabs.
Birdie is just too darn slow to approach on the ground, and his headbutts
can nearly always be countered with a CC.
>And let's try to remember that 80% of all challengers you fight are not
>game masters and probably would be throwing jab fireballs from far away.
>Just because you "technically" couldn't win with Birdie doesn't mean that
>in the game, you'll automatically lose once Ryu is ahead of you.
Ahhh, but the title of this post is "SFA2 Teir rankings." The accepted
method of ranking players is to gauge the characters assuming they are
both being played at an expert level. Heck yeah Birdie is a lot better
if you assume he's playing against a non-expert who doesn't know how
to take advantage of CCs and who blindly throws FBs when he shouldn't.
However, you can say the same thing about any other character. Under
such conditions, any rankings quickly become meaningless.
[snip]
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Wenchi Liao
In article <6h8pcv$ivd$1...@shell16.ba.best.com>,
Tom Cannon <web...@best.com> wrote:
>[ nice things about how birdie might prevail Ryu/Ken]
The only thing I would add is that this doesn't really work against
Ken...because of his air throw.
I would also add that I do think it is possible to jump in and take
advantage of trip guard to go right into the hop super. It just seems
easier to me than waiting for the low roundhouse/whatever. Seriously,
what is there to lose? Chances are, birdie will lose anyways. So count
on the person with a lead to play turtle and play push back with low
roundhouse, fireball.
Urgh...the three things I would add is actually a question: where on
the screen are the two 1/2 a screen apart? if Ryu/Ken is close to the
corner, Birdie has a much better chance, I believe. Against regular
people (not 100% master of the game 100% of the time), it is possible
to sneak in a jab head butt after the low forward. So jump in, mix it up
with the air short or not attacking ('cause the short will probably
beat or trade with most attacks), and low short. Assuming no ac, people
will usually jump to escape the predicted tick. So low forward to hit
out of air. If the opponent doesn't jump, low forward anyways. And
sneak in a jab head butt for block damage.
WL
...played this match up too many times to think Birdie has a real
chance....
EViLwebs
That's very well said, man. As so many of the old-school
are so quick to point out when it suits them, 10% of SF
is theory, but in the 90% in-practice, it doesn't
always work out that way. And while I agree that Birdie
is generally low tier, there's no way he's weaker than
Dan. Sure, he's got a problem if he's half a life-bar
behind against a good Ken/Ryu, but then that's why those
guys are upper-middle tier.
Just a couple of things Birdie has going for him, which
I think makes him not-quite-useless are his 3-punch
charge so he can walk forward and instantly go into
his ramming headbutt, a decent air counter (c. fierce hits
on the first frame of animation), which also doubles as
a useful supressing move, decent airspeed and jump-arc,
3 supers. I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of
people get caught by a short tick canceled into a super
chain-slap-'em-up-super from good Birdie players.
--
Web-Slinger
"I think, our image is really not having one. That is our
image: No image. Which is an image as well, of course."
- Dave Rotheray
N64 Gazetta -- http://www.n64gazetta.com
ICQ -- 2429540
Zvi
> >Ryan Roullard <n954...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
> >>> SCENARIO
> >>> -------------
> >>> Birdie is standing 1/2 a screen away from Ryu/Ken. Both characters have
> >>> one level of super meter, and Birdie is behind in life.
> >>>
> >>> What can Birdie do to get the lead again? Specifically...don't answer with
> >>> "hit them when they open up."
well, i would jump at them. Birdie has a pretty nice jump, and from that
distance you wont be right infront of them. If you see them try and nick
you out of the air with a dragon punch, thn activate the CC. if they try
and trip you when you land, go into the super, as its immediate
activation will not let you get hit, and you will grab them. If they do
a CC, then you counter with a cc of your own, or the super which will
either jump over them or grab them (if you jump over, then you will
probably be able to hit them with a rush. If they do nothing, then you
areall the closer, which can only help you out in the long run. From there,
wait on things, try and inch your way in, and alpha anything that
touches you, unless you can CC or super instead. If you get any of
these, chances are they will be in the corner with less life than you.
For sure, though, if I were that far away, I would jump....mainly
because it will probably be unexpected, and in most cases draw a mistake.
And if it was expected, in most cases it just makes someone fall into one
of the traps.....usually invlovling doing the super as soon as you land.
Chocobo
EViLwebs wrote:
> That's very well said, man. As so many of the old-school
> are so quick to point out when it suits them, 10% of SF
> is theory, but in the 90% in-practice, it doesn't
> always work out that way. And while I agree that Birdie
> is generally low tier, there's no way he's weaker than
> Dan.
Haven't you been reading this thread? Birdie's weaker than Dan, too. I
don't know about that 10%/90% thing... basically it sounds like you find
it easier to beat local players with Birdie than Dan, which means
nothing.
> Sure, he's got a problem if he's half a life-bar
> behind against a good Ken/Ryu, but then that's why those
> guys are upper-middle tier.
All right then, what does Birdie do in that situation against Dan, or
Rolento, or Adon?
> Just a couple of things Birdie has going for him, which
> I think makes him not-quite-useless are his 3-punch
> charge so he can walk forward and instantly go into
> his ramming headbutt,
That's slightly useful, I guess. It doesn't even do that much damage
when it does land though.
> a decent air counter (c. fierce hits
> on the first frame of animation), which also doubles as
> a useful supressing move,
Most everyone has a good anti-air move or two, this doesn't make a whole
lot of difference.
> decent airspeed and jump-arc,
> 3 supers.
His jump is OK, his supers pretty much suck. When you play against
Birdie, you know that he has the hop and grab SC so you watch out for
it. Just don't throw fireballs for no reason, or attempt to trip him
with a sweep. You still can use other pokes. His dashing headbutt super
does very little damage.
> I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of
> people get caught by a short tick canceled into a super
> chain-slap-'em-up-super from good Birdie players.
Wait a minute... a standing or low short into his punch button grab SC?
Well around here, a low short into a throw works nearly 100% of the time
with Dan, that doesn't mean he's good. It means the people getting hit
by it sug.
EViLwebs
Jumping the gun a bit aren't we, Choc? I mean, _HOW_ is a Dan
player supposed to get a lead on Birdie or anyone else, in
the first place? Dan is the _worst_ character in the game.
No range, no priority, shit speed, stupid special moves, and
no zoning-game. Dan's only gameplan is to sucker opponents
into range and punish whiffed moves with his FB super...
hardly inspirational.
Birdie handles himself quite well against Rolento thanks to
his decent anti-air abilities. He can just sit back while
Rolento jumps all over the place, and pick him off with
c. fierce, or jab dashing headbutt. If you're behind on
energy and need to break down a turtler, you have to mix
it between his standing fierce, jab headbutts, and c.
short into a super. Hey, no one said it was easy, but then
that's why it's called turtling... and besides, the same
can be said to a greater or lesser extent of at least half
the other characters. Just watch out for those CCs.
I'm not saying that Birdie doesn't have his problems, but
like with all the other characters, if you're a better
player than your opponent, then they can be overcome
with what he's got... and I still think he can whip Dan's
sorry ass.
> All right then, what does Birdie do in that situation against Dan, or
> Rolento, or Adon?
>
nicholas louis rogal
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, EViLwebs wrote:
> Jumping the gun a bit aren't we, Choc? I mean, _HOW_ is a Dan
> player supposed to get a lead on Birdie or anyone else, in
> the first place? Dan is the _worst_ character in the game.
> No range, no priority, shit speed, stupid special moves, and
> no zoning-game. Dan's only gameplan is to sucker opponents
> into range and punish whiffed moves with his FB super...
> hardly inspirational.
Huh? Dan is not the WORST character in the game. Most of his
normals are decent, his specials arn't bad, they just can't be used like
ARK, they actully require effort to use effectivly. Plus dan can Valle CC
with the best of them, and does descent damage in them, that alone puts
him above Birdie.
Eminently Bored
Perhaps when I show up and you go home upset, we will see who sucks.
I'll be looking specifically for you Mr. Talley.
k_fu...@hotmail.com
Dan _is_ better than Birdie:
- Dan has an Alpha Counter reversal supermove with his super fireball.
- Dan can start a very damaging Custom Combo off his low RH, and therefore he
can Valle up Birdie pretty bad. Birdie's Custom Combos are not damaging. This
Custom of Dan's is pretty much the entire reason he's better than Birdie. In
case you don't know, A2 is all about CC's. The CC can be done is many
situations, and since Birdie doens't have a good one, Dan inflicts more
damage.
- Dan has a decent array of useful SHITokan moves. Low fierce, low
short/forward/RH (all cancellable), a serviceable shoryuken, cool stand
short, and a nice standing forward kick that Ryu and Ken would take for
themselves in an INSTANT.
- Dan charges his meter faster than Birdie, so he can CC, AC, SC, more often.
- Dan has a very good Kick Alpha Counter. Birdie's kick AC is among the worst
in the entire game.
- Oh yeah, Dan beats Birdie in a head to head fight. What could be more
humiliting that that? That's posibly Dan's only _advantage_ in the entire
GAME. Over BIRDIE. Hmm, I think that makes Birdie dead last.
chris f
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Tom Cannon
In article <353889...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this>,
EViLwebs <sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this> wrote:
[snip]
>Just a couple of things Birdie has going for him, which
>I think makes him not-quite-useless are his 3-punch
>charge so he can walk forward and instantly go into
>his ramming headbutt, a decent air counter (c. fierce hits
>on the first frame of animation), which also doubles as
>a useful supressing move, decent airspeed and jump-arc,
>3 supers.
^^^^^^^^^^
Um...Birdie only has 2 supers. If you mean that he can
have 3 levels of super, well...so can everyone else.
Either way you might want to review your mental Birdie
databank.
Chocobo
EViLwebs wrote:
> Jumping the gun a bit aren't we, Choc? I mean, _HOW_ is a Dan
> player supposed to get a lead on Birdie or anyone else, in
> the first place?
Possibly a jumping short, or maybe a poked low forward. It's not like
Birdie's guaranteed a first hit either. However, Dan can crack turtles
somewhat, while Birdie has as much trouble against Dan as he does against
Ken or Ryu one they start turtling.
> Dan is the _worst_ character in the game.
Not quite. He's above Birdie, possibly Gen... maybe even Adon, that might
be pushing it though.
> No range, no priority, shit speed, stupid special moves, and
> no zoning-game. Dan's only gameplan is to sucker opponents
> into range and punish whiffed moves with his FB super...
> hardly inspirational.
I believe you may simply be a scrub, or not too far away from scrubdom at
any rate. I could be wrong, of course. Anyway, Dan has decent ground attack
range, good enough priority on his low/standing forward and the jumping
shorts has TONS... it's almost a free jumpin, which can make the other guy
have to guess between a CC, a throw, a combo... anyway, Dan can do more
about turtlers than many characters can. Your knowledge of Dan's gameplan
is weak.
> Birdie handles himself quite well against Rolento thanks to
> his decent anti-air abilities. He can just sit back while
> Rolento jumps all over the place, and pick him off with
> c. fierce, or jab dashing headbutt.
Who are you playing against, that just flies all over the screen leaving
himself open?
> If you're behind on
> energy and need to break down a turtler, you have to mix
> it between his standing fierce, jab headbutts, and c.
> short into a super.
That just doesn't work. A simple turtle Dan with a little meter can stop
this completely. Most standing fierces will be blocked, once in a while you
might trick someone into sticking out something to keep you out of range
from a grab and then your fierce will hit, but there's an even better
chance that the turtler will land a CC. Sure, Birdie can CC too, but his do
very little damage in a game that based on landing CCs. Blocked jab
headbutts are a free CC, and short into a super is easily escapable thanks
to the flash that lets you know the SC is coming, and then you get time to
react while Birdie hops in.
> Hey, no one said it was easy, but then
> that's why it's called turtling... and besides, the same
> can be said to a greater or lesser extent of at least half
> the other characters. Just watch out for those CCs.
Turtling can cause trouble for the other characters too, but none of them
are just totally stopped dead like Birdie is.
EViLwebs
> Um...Birdie only has 2 supers. If you mean that he can
> have 3 levels of super, well...so can everyone else.
> Either way you might want to review your mental Birdie
> databank.
>
WTF? No, I think you'll find he has *3* supers.
a) Chain slap-em-up with kick; b) Chain slap-em-up
with punch (the range is different); c) multiple
dashing headbutts.
The two grab supers are very different. With the
punch version, you can cancel it off a c. short or
whatever and grab-em from close range, while with
the kick version you can nail 'em from across the
screen.
Eddy Tang
k_fu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Dan _is_ better than Birdie:
*snip*
> - Oh yeah, Dan beats Birdie in a head to head fight. What could be more
> humiliting that that? That's posibly Dan's only _advantage_ in the entire
> GAME. Over BIRDIE. Hmm, I think that makes Birdie dead last.
> chris f
I don't really think Birdie is the worst in the game. Sure, maybe Dan has
all the things you said that Birdie doesn't, but when one character can
take away most of your air-offense, and changes strategies dramatically
for fireball characters, you know a character has his merits. I've never
played a good Dan player before... and who knows, maybe someday I could
play your Dan against my Birdie, but I really don't think it matters who's
the worst in Alpha 2. Overall abilities against all the characters doesn't
compare to the potential mismatches some characters have over others.
Abilities are also a key factor... it's possible to make a character with
the reputation of Dan and Birdie a dark horse (proven in tournaments, I'm
sure).
This is from a person who's favorite character (and possibly best character)
is Birdie. :P
Eddy Tang
Tom Cannon
In article <353A1E...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this>,
EViLwebs <sli...@websling.demon.co.uk.remove.this> wrote:
>> Um...Birdie only has 2 supers. If you mean that he can
>> have 3 levels of super, well...so can everyone else.
>> Either way you might want to review your mental Birdie
>> databank.
>>
>
>WTF? No, I think you'll find he has *3* supers.
>a) Chain slap-em-up with kick; b) Chain slap-em-up
>with punch (the range is different); c) multiple
>dashing headbutts.
>
WHAT?! You're out of touch my boy. Birdie has 2
supers. The hopping "chain slap-em-up" is one super
with 6 different ranges, one for each button.
This ONE super plus the headbutt super makes 2, two,
II, 1+1, supers.
>The two grab supers are very different. With the
>punch version, you can cancel it off a c. short or
>whatever and grab-em from close range, while with
>the kick version you can nail 'em from across the
>screen.
Just so you know, c. short, hopping super with jab
does not even come close to comboing. Everyone can
jump, super, or CC out of the grab.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
EViLwebs
>
> WHAT?! You're out of touch my boy. Birdie has 2
> supers. The hopping "chain slap-em-up" is one super
> with 6 different ranges, one for each button.
>
You could be right, but if that's the case,
then explain how you choose between the different
level supers?
mitchell aldinger
Any decsent Ryu/Ken player would see he had a super charged up and not
even throw a fireball, that would be just plain stupidity.
As far as slowly advancing with kicks and puches, Birdie is just to
damn slow.