Gold War Machine (Attn: Spider-Dan)
Derek Daniels
am, you should take this time out of your life and teach me
how to play GWM. BTW, the kick button color looks better :)
First some fundamental things about GWM need to be cleared
up for me.
Can he knee dive from a normal jump? I could only get him
to knee from a super jump. Was I just on a horrible
joystick?
When people do moves that go toward me, such as Wolverine's
Beserker Barrage thing, should I hit them with Fierce,
Forward or RH to launch? Do I do standard WM air combo of
SJ jab, short, strong, up+fierce?
What about people that start off by throwing a ton of
colossues and supers out at me? Should I be superjumping
and doing smart bomb into shoulder cannon, repeat until
ground?
What helper should I be using? Lou doesn't seem to work
that well, so I went back to using Colossus for Double War
Machine.
When going for the Duo, should I be taking advantage that
GWM can get hit and still do moves? In other words, take a
hit on purpose and activate the Duo when they are reeling?
Speaking of the Duo, is it just me or is the timing weird?
If I start both doing the war destroyer move right away, it
seems that there is a big hole from when they stop to when
they start the 2nd series up. But if I stagger it and make
them slightly off time, it's much tighter. Do you know
what I'm talking about? Any 'real' suggestion on how to
make it stagger and not get killed?
Speaking of which, can Captain Commando do his punch super
in the very begininng 'For Free' everytime? I tried to be
tricky and do the fireball+kick move at the start of the
duo, and this hit Captain Commando out of the sword super
once, but I couldn't tell if this was a real thing or not.
How good is the tactic of doing nothing but jumping toward
the opponent and doing down+fierce? I remember seeing one
of the Double WM teams at ECC4 doing this (eddie?) and it
seemed like it was good. Shrug
Derek
P.S. Even i've joined the ranks of my own counter
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WhoaMoses
2nd at ECC4 with his double War Machines. And since I play him just about every
day, I guess I know a little bit about your questions.
>Can he knee dive from a normal jump? I could only get him
>to knee from a super jump. Was I just on a horrible
>joystick?
As far as I can tell, no. Rob never does it from a normal jump.
>When people do moves that go toward me, such as Wolverine's
>Beserker Barrage thing, should I hit them with Fierce,
>Forward or RH to launch? Do I do standard WM air combo of
>SJ jab, short, strong, up+fierce?
It depends on what you want to do to them, and how close they are. If they are
still pretty far away, use standing forward and chain into a shoulder missle
(fireball + kick). But if they're right next to ya (i.e., after a Berserker
Barrage X) use standing roundhouse and air combo. Rob uses this air combo all
the time that goes something like SJ jab, short, strong, shoulder missle.
>What about people that start off by throwing a ton of
>colossues and supers out at me? Should I be superjumping
>and doing smart bomb into shoulder cannon, repeat until
>ground?
Basically, GWM should be in the air at all times. So as soon as the round
starts, you have a lot of options. You can SJ, and then either throw a smart
bomb (by the way, don't ever use the shoulder missle in the air unless in a
combo, it leaves him WAAAY too open for moves like the Shinkuu-Hadoken) or use
a knee drop, or both. You'll find that the knee drop, if timed correctly, will
negate most helpers and special moves, even supers. And if it doesn't, you can
actually cancel into another smart bomb. Example: You're knee dropping, when
all of a sudden Chun-Li desides to use a surprise Kikosho. Don't fret: as soon
as the Kikosho starts to hit, cancel into a smart bomb. GWM actually bounces
off the energy ball with his knees, and moves UP a few pixels for some reason.
Now you're perfectly safe.
>What helper should I be using? Lou doesn't seem to work
>that well, so I went back to using Colossus for Double War
>Machine.
As far as I can tell, it doesn't really matter. Rob thinks he's so good, he
always uses random helpers. You're right tho, Lou is kinda useless since GWM
can't cross-up. Use the basics like Colussus and Psylocke, and combo into
Proton Cannon.
>When going for the Duo, should I be taking advantage that
>GWM can get hit and still do moves? In other words, take a
>hit on purpose and activate the Duo when they are reeling?
You should ALWAYS be taking advantage that GWM can get hit and still do moves.
The best time to activate the duo seems to be after somebody lands a super on
you, or when they're attacking while airborne.
>Speaking of the Duo, is it just me or is the timing weird?
>If I start both doing the war destroyer move right away, it
>seems that there is a big hole from when they stop to when
>they start the 2nd series up. But if I stagger it and make
>them slightly off time, it's much tighter. Do you know
>what I'm talking about? Any 'real' suggestion on how to
>make it stagger and not get killed?
>
Hmm.....I don't quite understand you here. I know that if you immediately do a
War Destroyer motion after the duo is activated, both WMs will generally start
the move at the same time. So when they finish, they will be wide open for a
few seconds. The best thing to do is to get GWM next to your opponent, because
if they try to hit him at any time, they eat missles since he doesn't stun. To
mix up the double team a little, use a crouching forward to knock them down,
then OTG with double War Destroyer. Usually, the only way you can get double
WMs NOT to do the War Destroyers at the same exact time (so basically there's
no "lag time" between their supers and you're totally safe) is when one of them
is getting attacked, and so can't do their super. But I'm not the expert on
that, so don't quote me or anything.
>Speaking of which, can Captain Commando do his punch super
>in the very begininng 'For Free' everytime? I tried to be
>tricky and do the fireball+kick move at the start of the
>duo, and this hit Captain Commando out of the sword super
>once, but I couldn't tell if this was a real thing or not.
Well, basically the sword super only takes damage if you're standing on the
ground. If in the air, it only takes a pixel or two. So just SJ immediately as
the round starts, or jump forward and use down+fierce, or jump backward,
whatever. Just as long and you're not on the ground when the sword touches you,
you won't take any sufficient damage. I'm sure that the shoulder missle can
knock Cap out of the sword if timed correctly, but it's better to jump and not
risk mistiming it and eating 50% damage.
>How good is the tactic of doing nothing but jumping toward
>the opponent and doing down+fierce? I remember seeing one
>of the Double WM teams at ECC4 doing this (eddie?) and it
>seemed like it was good. Shrug
>
It was probably Eddie, since I've never seen anything like that before. Sounds
like something Rob would get really pissed about, it's so simple. I would
assume it's a pretty good strategy, except that it leaves GWM wide open for
helpers like Colossus.
Phil, the ThrowMaster
Spider-Dan
Derek Daniels <xe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Since I know you are at work and bored just as much as I
> am, you should take this time out of your life and teach me
> how to play GWM. BTW, the kick button color looks better :)
It's all about double kick WM team. I play those colors solely on the
chance that ONE day, someone will mistake one of them for the other,
since they look pretty similar.
Still waiting.
> First some fundamental things about GWM need to be cleared
> up for me.
>
> Can he knee dive from a normal jump? I could only get him
> to knee from a super jump. Was I just on a horrible
> joystick?
GWM's jump doesn't get to the required height for dive attacks, so no.
> When people do moves that go toward me, such as Wolverine's
> Beserker Barrage thing, should I hit them with Fierce,
> Forward or RH to launch? Do I do standard WM air combo of
> SJ jab, short, strong, up+fierce?
I recommend s.short-s.fwd-fwd SC, or s.short-s.fwd-s.fierce-Michelle
Heart. (If there is one thing I saw from the CT guys at ECC, it's that
Michelle Heart is way good with GWM.) As a word of advice, you want to
use s.short if they get close enough for it to hit (s.fwd is slower),
but under usual circumstances GWM doesn't like to be THAT close.
> What about people that start off by throwing a ton of
> colossues and supers out at me? Should I be superjumping
> and doing smart bomb into shoulder cannon, repeat until
> ground?
I go for aerial.... you can either go mad diveknees (chain to fierce,
short-fwd-fierce-Heart, which is about 3/4th of a level charge if
blocked), or go hover. If you aren't fighting against a beam super (or
Strider/Chun) you can also do lots of jump fierce.
> What helper should I be using? Lou doesn't seem to work
> that well, so I went back to using Colossus for Double War
> Machine.
Michelle Heart. Diveknee chain into heart is pretty airtight, and
builds meter really fast.
> When going for the Duo, should I be taking advantage that
> GWM can get hit and still do moves? In other words, take a
> hit on purpose and activate the Duo when they are reeling?
Counter Duo is key. If you are getting hit by a beam super, and you'll
survive it, just eat it and call counter duo. That character won't be a
threat anymore.
> Speaking of the Duo, is it just me or is the timing weird?
> If I start both doing the war destroyer move right away, it
> seems that there is a big hole from when they stop to when
> they start the 2nd series up. But if I stagger it and make
> them slightly off time, it's much tighter. Do you know
> what I'm talking about? Any 'real' suggestion on how to
> make it stagger and not get killed?
3 suggestions:
1. You have about .5 second window when the Duo is called when the
secondary can move but the primary is still in the Duo calling
animation. Have secondary start WD then, stagger from there. Drawback?
Throw bait. (Insert advanced tech mash here.... I've done it exactly
once, vs Valle of all people.) Also, MM/Cap can do a super here that
will protect them from missiles.
2. Repulsor blast. GWM doesn't have one, so HCB+P won't do anything.
Stagger from there. Drawback? If they expect it, both characters eat a
beam super. Yay.
3. Shoulder cannon. One of them has a faster overall SC, so he gets out
first. WD from there. Drawback? It just doesn't feel "tight" to me,
if you can call that a drawback. Probably the best option (on paper).
> Speaking of which, can Captain Commando do his punch super
> in the very begininng 'For Free' everytime? I tried to be
> tricky and do the fireball+kick move at the start of the
> duo, and this hit Captain Commando out of the sword super
> once, but I couldn't tell if this was a real thing or not.
No, Commando has to wait for the WD to start the Sword (optimally).
> How good is the tactic of doing nothing but jumping toward
> the opponent and doing down+fierce? I remember seeing one
> of the Double WM teams at ECC4 doing this (eddie?) and it
> seemed like it was good. Shrug
Jumping fierce is very very good vs non-beam supers.... you can get
rushed and thrown though. If they get in really close switch to
j.short-fwd (if normal jumping is your strat). Also, straight fierce
reaches farther (duh).
--
Dan Thompson
[send e-mail to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
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Falconer
Ouroburos and spotted Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> causing
trouble. Frowning, Falconer set off to investigate...
>In article <9343917...@www.remarq.com>,
> Derek Daniels <xe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When people do moves that go toward me, such as Wolverine's
>> Beserker Barrage thing, should I hit them with Fierce,
>> Forward or RH to launch? Do I do standard WM air combo of
>> SJ jab, short, strong, up+fierce?
>
>I recommend s.short-s.fwd-fwd SC, or s.short-s.fwd-s.fierce-Michelle
>Heart. (If there is one thing I saw from the CT guys at ECC, it's that
>Michelle Heart is way good with GWM.) As a word of advice, you want to
>use s.short if they get close enough for it to hit (s.fwd is slower),
>but under usual circumstances GWM doesn't like to be THAT close.
What's the button combo to choose Heart? I wanna try out the double
WM team, but the only helpers I definitely know the codes for are
Shadow, Sentinel, Forgotten Soldier, Lou, Psylocke and Colossus.
Xero Pete
>WM team, but the only helpers I definitely know the codes for are
>Shadow, Sentinel, Forgotten Soldier, Lou, Psylocke and Colossus.
I believe it's Jab+Short
Peter "Xero" Nguyen
Member of the "Xero Combo Crew"; the wannabe Skill Smiths of America!
Admirer of Bug!
"Repeat after me, I shall never take on a God again" Rugal B.
"Whoa, I won already?" Me d^_^b
http://members.aol.com/xerocrew/ <~~ Coming Soon
Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr.
double WM 2-on-1
is powerful, but it is stoppable. Almost every character can do something
about it
whether they are far away or up close, with few exceptions. From far away,
DASH.
The missiles have to retrack their targets, and that takes time - time in
which you can blow
away both WMs with a Super move or what have you. Here is how you can
defeat it
with every character
Ryu: (up close) Shin-Shouryuuken, Shinryuken, Shun Goku Satsu
(from a distance) Regular Ryu's dash is not fast enough. Try SJ
Hurricane Kick.
Chun-Li: (up close) KIKOUSHOU.
(from a distance) Dash first, then Kikoushou when close.
Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down the
meter.
(from a distance) Grit your teeth. Forward Superman Grab *may*
work (Viscant?)
Morrigan: (up close) Darkness Illusion if WM is in front, otherwise Soul
Eraser.
(from a distance) Dash. If too close to completely evade, see
above.
CapCom: (up close) Captain Storm? A well-timed Captain Sword works.
(from a distance) Captain Sword will usually trade unless you dash
first.
Megaman/Roll: (from anywhere) Rush Drill. Wait for the War Destroyer,
though.
Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
(from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the missiles.
(from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
Captain America: (up close) Final Justice if WM is in front, HCS if GWM.
(from a distance) Dash, then choose your super.
Venom/Hyper Venom: (up close) Try a Web Throw if WM is in front.
(from a distance) Do a Venom Web if you're all the way in
the back, otherwise try to connect with a Web Throw.
Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
(from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge, then Gamma
Tornado.
Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
(from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the Fierce one.
(from a distance) Dash, then Proton Cannon.
Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try Berserker
Slashing.
(from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
GWM: (up close) Roundhouse -> War Destroyer. Try to hit them both.
(from a distance) You're kind of screwed...
Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier and ram
on the buttons.
(from a distance) Dash, then Big Bang Laser.
Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
Richard DeLauder
* you get a few hits in, then the other WD's missles catch up to you, and
you've lost the character
> (from a distance) Regular Ryu's dash is not fast enough. Try SJ
>Hurricane Kick.
to go where? if you go forward you run into the missles going up, if you go
back they follow you on the way down (all assuming the missles are properly
staggered.
all your solutions seem to get a hit in, but do not stop the duo, your
character will be hit in recovery, and most likely be ko'ed or hurt badly.
Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr.
wrote:
>all your solutions seem to get a hit in, but do not stop the duo, your
>character will be hit in recovery, and most likely be ko'ed or hurt badly.
From far away, you can get free hits in because the missiles are VERY
slow in retracing their targets. As soon as you see the missiles
start to come out, dash. If you do this right, you don't have to
worry about being hit by any missiles. And up close, anyone with an
auto combo move can get off scot free as long as they hit WM. Beam
supers will probably trade if you do it up close, but the damage is in
your favor.
Falconer
and spotted xero...@aol.com (Xero Pete) causing trouble. Frowning,
Falconer set off to investigate...
>>What's the button combo to choose Heart? I wanna try out the double
>>WM team, but the only helpers I definitely know the codes for are
>>Shadow, Sentinel, Forgotten Soldier, Lou, Psylocke and Colossus.
>
>I believe it's Jab+Short
Hrm, I'll give that a shot. Gotta try something else than
Lou/Psylocke with any combo of Jin/Z/Strider/CapCom/Ryu.
Killer B the place to be
>From: "Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr." das...@cyberspace.org
>Date: Fri, 13 August 1999 06:10 PM EDT
>Message-id: <37B498FD...@cyberspace.org>
>
>I don't know if this post came out the first time, so I'll try again. The
>double WM 2-on-1
>is powerful, but it is stoppable. Almost every character can do something
>about it
>whether they are far away or up close, with few exceptions. From far away,
>DASH.
>The missiles have to retrack their targets, and that takes time - time in
>which you can blow
>away both WMs with a Super move or what have you. Here is how you can
>defeat it
>with every character
>
>Hurricane Kick.
Another way is to use Ryu's Ken form's kick super. It lags the time bar much
like Weapon X or Ragnarok.
>Chun-Li: (up close) KIKOUSHOU.
> (from a distance) Dash first, then Kikoushou when close.
>Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down the
>meter.
> (from a distance) Grit your teeth. Forward Superman Grab *may*
>work (Viscant?)
...better dash first, then try it...
>Morrigan: (up close) Darkness Illusion if WM is in front, otherwise Soul
>Eraser.
> (from a distance) Dash. If too close to completely evade, see
>above.
>CapCom: (up close) Captain Storm? A well-timed Captain Sword works.
> (from a distance) Captain Sword will usually trade unless you dash
>first.
Captain Storm works, but only if regular Sex Machine is in front.
>Megaman/Roll: (from anywhere) Rush Drill. Wait for the War Destroyer,
>though.
>Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
> (from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
...using Ourobolos, then teleporting behind or in between the two works, too.
>Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the missiles.
> (from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
UWT works for that? I dunno, you may get pounced by missiles.
>Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
>Captain America: (up close) Final Justice if WM is in front, HCS if GWM.
CapAm seems to be the anti WM/GWM character.
>(from a distance) Dash, then choose your super.
>Venom/Hyper Venom: (up close) Try a Web Throw if WM is in front.
> (from a distance) Do a Venom Web if you're all the way in
>the back, otherwise try to connect with a Web Throw.
>Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
> (from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge, then Gamma
>Tornado.
>Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
> (from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
...that's a little risky, but that's probably his only way out, right?
>War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the Fierce one.
...or use War Destroyer and protect yourself.
> (from a distance) Dash, then Proton Cannon.
PC takes too long to get out.
>Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try Berserker
>Slashing.
> (from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
Weapon X works good from a distance, too. Just dash first, though.
>GWM: (up close) Roundhouse -> War Destroyer. Try to hit them both.
> (from a distance) You're kind of screwed...
...more or less. Use War Destroyer yourself from that distance to minimize
damage to yourself.
>Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier and ram
>on the buttons.
I'd say dash back and do BBL, but I dunno...
> (from a distance) Dash, then Big Bang Laser.
>Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
...but takes a while to come out...
Killer B
dual swordwielder of the Illumina and the Asura
Phantasy Star aficionado
Pilot of Evagear unit 69: Genesis
Defender of SaGa Frontier and Xenogears
Co-defender of Lunar and Star Ocean 2
Remove the attachment updatass to reply
Spider-Dan
"Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr." <das...@cyberspace.org> wrote:
> I don't know if this post came out the first time, so I'll try again.
> The double WM 2-on-1
> is powerful, but it is stoppable. Almost every character can do
> something about it
> whether they are far away or up close, with few exceptions.
When you say "do something about it," I would assume most people would
want to "do something about it" that doesn't involve them dying right
after. =-] For the most part, there's only 4 (technically 5) characters
that can safely do something against double WD (Captain Sword, Soul
Eraser, Rush Drill, Hyper Charging Star), and if the WDs are staggered
correctly, you can't do anything more than one time (and, depending on
what that one thing is, you might die after that).
> From far away, DASH.
> The missiles have to retrack their targets, and that takes time - time
> in which you can blow
> away both WMs with a Super move or what have you. Here is how you can
> defeat it with every character
Given that when your opponent calls a duo, one of the characters is
either going to be close to you, or cross you up. (If you pushblock the
Duo jumpin, you won't be able to move fast enough to avoid getting
staggered WDs dropped on you.)
> Ryu: (up close) Shin-Shouryuuken,
You are aware that this move isn't invincible while executing, and will
get blasted by missiles from at least one of the WMs, right?
> Shinryuken
Same.
> Shun Goku Satsu
Maybe. As soon as that ended you'd be no better off than before, though
(is R-Akuma invincible after RD? If not, he's dead).
> (from a distance) Regular Ryu's dash is not fast enough. Try SJ
> Hurricane Kick.
Dead.
> Chun-Li: (up close) KIKOUSHOU.
...then after that connects, you get hit by GWM's delayed WD, and
juggled for 100%.
> (from a distance) Dash first, then Kikoushou when close.
Too slow.... if you're near normal WM, he'll just block, then you die;
if you're near GWM, see above.
> Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down
the
> meter.
If Zangief is close enough to grab at the beginning, jump back fierce
into WDs solves all your problems.
> Morrigan: (up close) Darkness Illusion if WM is in front, otherwise
I would like to mention that against players who try to do a super at
the very beginning, you can simply stick out s.fwd into shoulder cannon,
which will stop most of those type of attempts (they certainly can't
escape the missiles from whichever WM is in "back").
> Soul Eraser.
The thing that makes this Duo so deadly is GWM's super armor. Yes, you
may get off your SE, and that will protect you from any falling
missiles.... but if you hit GWM while the missiles are still
"launching," they will delay and fall on you during the exceptionally
long recovery period of the SE.
> (from a distance) Dash. If too close to completely evade,
see
> above.
> CapCom: (up close) Captain Storm?
Not invincible. GWM will kill Commando where he stands.
> A well-timed Captain Sword works.
> (from a distance) Captain Sword will usually trade unless you
> dash first.
I agree, Sword is the best anti-WD Duo tool in the game.
> Megaman/Roll: (from anywhere) Rush Drill. Wait for the War Destroyer,
> though.
After Rush Drill ends, then what? Recovery is too long.
> Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
> (from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
Most of these dashing strategies only work if both WMs are stuck in a
corner somewhere, doing WDs at the exact same time. It's not a
realistic assumption IMO.
> Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the
missiles.
> (from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
No and no. GWM will kill both of these attempts.
> Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
During Blodia Vulcan, GWM walks to mid screen, taunts a few times, then
starts a WD. Jin dies.
> Captain America: (up close) Final Justice if WM is in front, HCS if
> GWM.
HCS is, again, a one-night-stand against staggered WDs; you might get
one, but then you're dead.
> (from a distance) Dash, then choose your super.
Neither one will get past GWM.
> Venom/Hyper Venom: (up close) Try a Web Throw if WM is in front.
Heh.... I know for a fact this doesn't work (believe me, I tried). The
time that Web Throw lasts is exactly wrong; GWM can easily run up and WD
as (R.)Venom comes out of it, as they are not invincible after the move,
and cannot block.
> (from a distance) Do a Venom Web if you're all the
> way in the back, otherwise try to connect with a Web Throw.
Venom Web is not invincible (during execution). GWM gets the kill.
> Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
> (from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge, then
> Gamma Tornado.
One of the things that your solutions depend on is that WM gets hit. If
a smart GWM-WM player sets up his staggers so that GWM is WDing and WM
is free to block (which is easy to do, even early in the Duo, by using
Shoulder Cannon), almost every single one of these solutions results in
your character dying.
> Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
> (from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
The missiles will track Cajun Explosion. Royal Flush gets killed by
GWM's missiles (whether it hits him or not).
> War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the Fierce
> one. (from a distance) Dash, then Proton Cannon.
Proton Cannon?!?! Way too slow.
> Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try
> Berserker Slashing.
Do you mean the speedup? Obviously, that does nothing against GWM.
> (from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
As above.
> GWM: (up close) Roundhouse -> War Destroyer. Try to hit them both.
> (from a distance) You're kind of screwed...
GWM does not live in this Duo, unless he calls one of his own.
> Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier
> and ram on the buttons.
Which won't protect you from the "raindrops falling on your head".
> (from a distance) Dash, then Big Bang Laser.
Short-term solution, which results in self-death (like all of the beam
supers, except Soul Eraser in certain situations).
> Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
During Splendor Love, GWM is free to walk around, taunt, WD, whatever.
That move isn't exactly the fastest, either.
Don't take what I'm saying as trying to discourage any hope of beating
GWM-WM; I'm just saying that a lot of these things have been tried
already, and for the most part, people die more often from trying to do
ineffective moves to counter the Duo, when they would have survived
(with plenty of life) if they had just gritted their teeth and blocked.
Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr.
> >Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down the
> >meter.
> > (from a distance) Grit your teeth. Forward Superman Grab *may*
> >work (Viscant?)
> ...better dash first, then try it...
You'll get snagged by the missiles mid-dash.
> >Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the missiles.
> > (from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
> UWT works for that? I dunno, you may get pounced by missiles.
That's why you dash first. It takes a surprisingly long time for the missiles to
retrack. Someone with a fast dash like Spidey can do it and get off scot-free.
> >Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
> > (from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
> ...that's a little risky, but that's probably his only way out, right?
Yep, especially since Gambit's dash is not the fastest.
> >War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the Fierce one.
> ...or use War Destroyer and protect yourself.
That would work, if well timed.
> PC takes too long to get out.
WM has a fast dash, so you can do PC and get off scot free.
> >Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try Berserker
> >Slashing.
> > (from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
>
> Weapon X works good from a distance, too. Just dash first, though.
Make sure WM is in front, though. If GWM is, nothing happens and you may get hit
by missiles flying up.
> >Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier and ram
> >on the buttons.
> I'd say dash back and do BBL, but I dunno...
You can't dash back. It will make you block. :-(
> >Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
> ...but takes a while to come out...
Splendour Love is immune to projectiles in its startup frames.
Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr.
Well, it's certainly possible that these solutions have worked for me
because I haven't played anyone good at doing it. :-) Only two people in
my area use WM/GWM... and when they start the duo, they dash back first so
their sprites overlap. That way it's really easy to dash and get them... As
for a few of the invincibility issues... I don't play as those characters
much so I wasn't sure.
I'd say the absolute best solution is to call a 2-on-1 of your own...
Spider-Dan
>
> Well, it's certainly possible that these solutions have worked for me
> because I haven't played anyone good at doing it. :-) Only two
> people in my area use WM/GWM... and when they start the duo, they
> dash back first so their sprites overlap.
I'm not sure if you would know, but why would one want to do that?
That's the opposite of what one would want, I think.
> That way it's really easy to dash and get them... As
> for a few of the invincibility issues... I don't play as those
> characters much so I wasn't sure.
Understandable.
> I'd say the absolute best solution is to call a 2-on-1 of your own...
Actually.... I don't mean to harass you, but that's almost the single
*worst* solution. (As shown at CMVCC and ECC) GWM-WM will win every
duo when put head to head (except an extremely luckily timed
Commando-Morrigan duo). Here's the breakdown:
Without getting into too many character specifics, basically the double
Duo goes something like this.
1. GWM and WM start doing WD.
2. Victim #1 and Victim #2 start doing supers.
(Step 1 and 2 are basically simultaneous)
3. WM gets hit and knocked down by a super.
4. GWM's missiles (along with a few of WM's, before he got knocked down)
start falling on Victim #1. Victim #1 loses half life, and falls down.
5. WM rolls, and does a WD. (Sometimes Victim #2 will get hit by this
super on the way up.)
6. GWM continues to do WD (for the entire Duo).
7. Victim #1 takes lots of block damage, exactly as if he never called
the Duo to begin with. If Victim #2 tries something, he gets hit by
missiles on the way up (keep in mind that Victim can't see what the fuck
is going on onscreen, since the flicker is so bad; GWM-WM doesn't need
to see what's going on, all he has to do is keep mashing QCF+KK).
Victim #2 may get juggled for 100% and die. If so, Victim's Duo is
over, go straight to block damage, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
8. Best case scenario: Victim sits and collects block damage on one
character, while his other character sits and blocks, and at the end of
the Duo, he has 40-80% less life (depending on whether he chose to block
or super at step 2), with no meter to boot (since his meter was wasted
while he executed The Magnificent Blocking Duo Attack).
Not favorable.
The only way you will win double Duo against GWM-WM is if you kill one
of them with the first set of supers. After that, you're pretty much
dead.
Rylan Hilman
wrote:
>In article <37B498FD...@cyberspace.org>,
> "Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr." <das...@cyberspace.org> wrote:
>> Shun Goku Satsu
>
>Maybe. As soon as that ended you'd be no better off than before, though
>(is R-Akuma invincible after RD? If not, he's dead).
Pretty sure he's invulnerable until he can block...
>> Chun-Li: (up close) KIKOUSHOU.
>
>...then after that connects, you get hit by GWM's delayed WD, and
>juggled for 100%.
Unless somehow you happen to get both WMs at the same time. Kikoshou
kills missles as they're being launched from either one, and if he
knocks missles out from GWM, or knocks over WM, even if she takes a
few missles, wouldn't it break the juggle for at least an even damage
trade?
If GWM is in front anyway, all she really needs to do is punch/kick
once or twice(if time allows, assuming she gets the dash in), then
throw him. Blocking recovery, and she at least gets a bit of her
damage in.
Furthermore, assuming GWM doesn't roll, and if the missles from
regular WM aren't still hitting, she can Kikoshou as GWM stands up
for(hopefully) one KO. You can't tag him out during a Duo...
Another option, which involves being hit by GWM's War Destroyer, is
to Shichisei WM. Although if that doesn't KO him, you're better off
trying something else if GWM keeps juggling long enough for WM to
recover from Chun-Li's super. (does he?)
>> (from a distance) Dash first, then Kikoushou when close.
>
>Too slow.... if you're near normal WM, he'll just block, then you die;
>if you're near GWM, see above.
If he's blocking, you can throw. If you're near GWM, see below the
above. Too many options on both sides to ever say "he can just..."
>> Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down
>the
>> meter.
>
>If Zangief is close enough to grab at the beginning, jump back fierce
>into WDs solves all your problems.
Then lariat or sweep or something else unpredictable that (maybe)
out prioritizes a Fierce. Psylocke maybe?
Even still, Zangief against double War Machines isn't a good idea
anyway. Although I do it all the time ANYWAY...
>> Morrigan: (up close) Darkness Illusion if WM is in front, otherwise
>
>I would like to mention that against players who try to do a super at
>the very beginning, you can simply stick out s.fwd into shoulder cannon,
>which will stop most of those type of attempts (they certainly can't
>escape the missiles from whichever WM is in "back").
Darkness Illusion overpowers a s.fwd, doesn't it? Or at least a jab
or something. S.fwd into Shoulder Cannon makes both WMs fire it off,
which means the one can't start a War Destroyer until they finish
their Shoulder Cannon...
They could try to fight with ground normals until the War Destroyers
start...
>> Soul Eraser.
>
>The thing that makes this Duo so deadly is GWM's super armor. Yes, you
>may get off your SE, and that will protect you from any falling
>missiles.... but if you hit GWM while the missiles are still
>"launching," they will delay and fall on you during the exceptionally
>long recovery period of the SE.
For at least a trade. WM knocks down(and rolls...hmm.), which means
Morrigan takes a few missles and then falls over, unless WM rolls
right under her, launches her with S.RH, and starts another WD...on
second thought, that wouldn't work unless it KOs WM.
>> (from a distance) Dash. If too close to completely evade,
>see
>> above.
>> CapCom: (up close) Captain Storm?
>
>Not invincible. GWM will kill Commando where he stands.
Do the helpers keep attacking or does the super cancel? In any case,
a throw would probably be preferable...
>> A well-timed Captain Sword works.
>> (from a distance) Captain Sword will usually trade unless you
>> dash first.
>
>I agree, Sword is the best anti-WD Duo tool in the game.
Even if it's not all THAT damaging if both WMs are standing...
>> Megaman/Roll: (from anywhere) Rush Drill. Wait for the War Destroyer,
>> though.
>
>After Rush Drill ends, then what? Recovery is too long.
Depends on positioning, I guess. You'll push GWM into WM or WM into
GWM, and all three of you will be in the corner. WM will fly up then
down being dizzy, and GWM may have a missle or two still going. Of
course, the missles track their target as soon as they're launched,
and don't change course afterwards. If Megaman/Roll wasn't in the
corner to start with, then it's possible the recovery would be offset
by the fact that the missles were firing at them all over the screen,
with only the last few missles aiming at the corner, where they
recover.
>> Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
>> (from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
>
>Most of these dashing strategies only work if both WMs are stuck in a
>corner somewhere, doing WDs at the exact same time. It's not a
>realistic assumption IMO.
Call out the Dou, a WM comes in, you pushblock it. WMs are away from
you, unless THEY dash first and start WDs.
And if Ouroborous cancels missles, why dash first? Start it up and
dash in. If it's GWM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, and then
throw. If it's WM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, then Ragnarok.
>> Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the
>missiles.
>> (from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
>
>No and no. GWM will kill both of these attempts.
Ultimate Web Throw is invulnerable while throwing, but I don't know
where he become vulnerable again: after letting go, right when
landing, or not until he can block. In any case, dashing in
first(assuming the distance is right) *might* be enough to go for UWT.
Missles *are* very slow in retracking...
Slow enough in retracking that the Crawler Assault would get Spidey
far enough across the screen(while doing damage) that by the time the
missles retrace to where he is now, he'd be able to block.
>> Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
>
>During Blodia Vulcan, GWM walks to mid screen, taunts a few times, then
>starts a WD. Jin dies.
If WM in front: dash in and Saotome Crush. Heh, I have GOT to see
this happen. Background all funky, GWM shooting missles trying to hit
Jin, who's dragging WM all over the edge of the game. He's gonna be
raining those things EVERYWHERE! :) Jin's got instant recovery too, if
I'm not mistaken...
If GWM in front: dash in, jab a few times, and punch throw, I guess.
Hopefully recover in front of WM, and if he's still doing WD, Saotome
Crush.
A thought: is Jin vulnerable to WD missles while doing a Great
Cyclone? And even if he is, it's a fairly even damage trade if WM
can't recover in time to juggle...
>> Captain America: (up close) Final Justice if WM is in front, HCS if
>> GWM.
>
>HCS is, again, a one-night-stand against staggered WDs; you might get
>one, but then you're dead.
Yeah, you're probably better off Cartwheeling away from missles,
then doing Final Justice on WM. Or throw GWM, cartwheel, and Final
Justice WM.
>> (from a distance) Dash, then choose your super.
>
>Neither one will get past GWM.
We're talking about GWM being in back? Cartwheel's fast, and I'm
fairly sure it's fast enough to beat out the missles retracking...
>> Venom/Hyper Venom: (up close) Try a Web Throw if WM is in front.
>
>Heh.... I know for a fact this doesn't work (believe me, I tried). The
>time that Web Throw lasts is exactly wrong; GWM can easily run up and WD
>as (R.)Venom comes out of it, as they are not invincible after the move,
>and cannot block.
Kick throw looks good here...then dash and try to throw the other
WM.
>> (from a distance) Do a Venom Web if you're all the
>> way in the back, otherwise try to connect with a Web Throw.
>
>Venom Web is not invincible (during execution). GWM gets the kill.
Maybe try a Fierce Venom Fang(to get close, it's got fast enough
recovery), then dash in for kick throws.
>> Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
>> (from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge, then
>> Gamma Tornado.
>
>One of the things that your solutions depend on is that WM gets hit. If
> a smart GWM-WM player sets up his staggers so that GWM is WDing and WM
>is free to block (which is easy to do, even early in the Duo, by using
>Shoulder Cannon), almost every single one of these solutions results in
>your character dying.
Wait, I'm confused...doesn't the Shoulder Cannon make both WMs get
stuck in the move?
Is the entire fight against the GWM-WM duo then in order to disrupt
the stagger before it starts?
>> Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
>> (from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
>
>The missiles will track Cajun Explosion. Royal Flush gets killed by
>GWM's missiles (whether it hits him or not).
Any of Gambit's throws look good here too...
>> War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the Fierce
>> one. (from a distance) Dash, then Proton Cannon.
>
>Proton Cannon?!?! Way too slow.
Unless they have enough room to dash. Unlikely, however. (what does
throw priority have to do with anything if they're doing a WD at the
time?) And if you get the throw that pushes them across the screen,
then that pretty much takes care of the missle retracking problem if
you act fast enough coming out of it. If you're not pushing them into
the corner right next to you, that is...
>> Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try
>> Berserker Slashing.
>
>Do you mean the speedup? Obviously, that does nothing against GWM.
Berserker Slash = the move that sends Wolvie across the screen, with
an invulnerable dash. That might work if you intentionally fall short
of WM, then Weapon X. And if GWM's in front, slash slash slash
(missles almost arrive), throw.
>> (from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
>
>As above.
What *is* the name of Wolvie's speedup super, though?
>> GWM: (up close) Roundhouse -> War Destroyer. Try to hit them both.
>> (from a distance) You're kind of screwed...
>
>GWM does not live in this Duo, unless he calls one of his own.
Up close, he throws, I guess. Otherwise, yeah, he calls his own duo.
Either that or tries to outrun the missles as best as he can. (heh...)
>> Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier
>> and ram on the buttons.
>
>Which won't protect you from the "raindrops falling on your head".
Throwing will take down at least one WM, with time to block. Dashing
first would be preferable, she's got a pretty quick throw, so she
could try to dash, throw, dash, and throw the other one. Block
afterwards if she needs to, she got damage in...
>> (from a distance) Dash, then Big Bang Laser.
>
>Short-term solution, which results in self-death (like all of the beam
>supers, except Soul Eraser in certain situations).
If WM's in front, you can hope you're charged properly for a Final
Mission... :) Which would probably NEVER happen in an actual game,
anywhere...
>> Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
>
>During Splendor Love, GWM is free to walk around, taunt, WD, whatever.
>That move isn't exactly the fastest, either.
Does Lilith still have the Vector Drain? (which is another Morrigan
idea I'm too lazy to go back and add under her section) The rule with
MegaGief/GWM is that all attacks do the same result as if they were
blocked, so unblockable Vector Drain would grab whoever and then waste
some of the Team Duo timer...even better, you can do it off a dash.
(and besides, are the missles still tracking her current position at
all points during the move? Oy, they're gonna be flying all over the
place...)
>Don't take what I'm saying as trying to discourage any hope of beating
>GWM-WM; I'm just saying that a lot of these things have been tried
>already, and for the most part, people die more often from trying to do
>ineffective moves to counter the Duo, when they would have survived
>(with plenty of life) if they had just gritted their teeth and blocked.
All of the above is theoretical, so anywhere from 0-100% of it would
be effective. Probably 0%, if I'm misreading how a *good* WM/GWM
player staggers(which would mean blockstun from the time you call the
Duo, but if that's the case, then why discuss ANY of these ideas?).
Anyway, my philosophy for fighting a Duo is this: I'm going to take
a lot of block damage, so get AS MUCH of my own in as I can, and THEN
block(if applicable). Even if it's a single throw, I attempt to claim
as much damage as possible...this is also kinda good since most throws
have instant recovery(you're invulnerable one instant, the next you
can block).
Spider-Dan
rhi...@oasis.quay.com (Rylan Hilman) wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:51:33 GMT, Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> >> Chun-Li: (up close) KIKOUSHOU.
> >
> >...then after that connects, you get hit by GWM's delayed WD, and
> >juggled for 100%.
>
> Unless somehow you happen to get both WMs at the same time. Kikoshou
> kills missles as they're being launched from either one, and if he
> knocks missles out from GWM, or knocks over WM, even if she takes a
> few missles, wouldn't it break the juggle for at least an even damage
> trade?
Kikosho doesn't "kill missiles as they are being launched"; if WM gets
hit by it, obviously he stops launching, if GWM gets hit by it he just
delays the launch. Either way, Kikosho isn't the fastest super in the
game, and you have to start it immediately. You leave yourself open to
getting thrown by WM (if he's in front), or if GWM is in front you'll
get juggled to death after Kikosho ends. I don't want to play the "if
you do this I do this" game, but all things being equal, WM is still
able to throw you (WM has one of of the larger throw ranges in the
game), which makes instantly doing a Kikosho (a somewhat predictable
choice, given Chun's options) not quite as sound as it may seem, since
the startup is slow enough to make it vulnerable to throws. I've thrown
MANY a MM out of Rush Drills.
> If GWM is in front anyway, all she really needs to do is punch/kick
> once or twice(if time allows, assuming she gets the dash in), then
> throw him. Blocking recovery, and she at least gets a bit of her
> damage in.
One of the anti-throw tactics that works well with GWM-WM is holding
back and mashing strong/forward/fierce/RH, at least until you get a
stagger. This way, if they attempt to throw you, you OS a tech hit, at
which point it's almost impossible for them to escape a stagger for the
remainder of the Duo (in many cases they are hit by falling missiles
immediately after the tech).
> Furthermore, assuming GWM doesn't roll, and if the missles from
> regular WM aren't still hitting, she can Kikoshou as GWM stands up
> for(hopefully) one KO. You can't tag him out during a Duo...
You will never ever ever get off two Kikoshos in one Duo, realistically.
There is too much startup and end lag for that to take place.
> Another option, which involves being hit by GWM's War Destroyer, is
> to Shichisei WM. Although if that doesn't KO him, you're better off
> trying something else if GWM keeps juggling long enough for WM to
> recover from Chun-Li's super. (does he?)
I can safely say this falls in the category of "suicide".
> >> (from a distance) Dash first, then Kikoushou when close.
> >
> >Too slow.... if you're near normal WM, he'll just block, then you
die;
> >if you're near GWM, see above.
>
> If he's blocking, you can throw. If you're near GWM, see below the
> above. Too many options on both sides to ever say "he can just..."
It's not like there is any advanced mind games taking place on the
GWM-WM players part; all he has to do is think, "Who's in front?" and
act accordingly. As a general rule of thumb, when I call the Duo and
WM is in front, I like to take advantage of his faster speed and
counterthrow my opponent, or poke them out of super attempts. When GWM
is in front, I tend to have him use a WD immediately, mash any
necessary techs, and let his WD overpower any countersuper attempts.
To make this a little more simple, when you activate your Duo your
opponent basically has two options:
1) Throw.
2) Super.
Depending on which character they are using, how much meter they have,
and who is in front, there are pretty safe and nearly universal steps
the GWM-WM player can take to insure a safe Duo.
> >> Zangief: (up close) FAB. The time Zan spends FABbing will run down
> >the
> >> meter.
> >
> >If Zangief is close enough to grab at the beginning, jump back fierce
> >into WDs solves all your problems.
>
> Then lariat or sweep or something else unpredictable that (maybe)
> out prioritizes a Fierce. Psylocke maybe?
What do you do after any of the above options, even if they did work?
Even if you execute them flawlessly, you save about 5% block damage; if
you mess up, 60-100% gone. Not quite a good risk.
> >> Morrigan: (up close) Darkness Illusion if WM is in front, otherwise
> >
> >I would like to mention that against players who try to do a super at
> >the very beginning, you can simply stick out s.fwd into shoulder
> >cannon,
> >which will stop most of those type of attempts (they certainly can't
> >escape the missiles from whichever WM is in "back").
>
> Darkness Illusion overpowers a s.fwd, doesn't it? Or at least a jab
> or something. S.fwd into Shoulder Cannon makes both WMs fire it off,
> which means the one can't start a War Destroyer until they finish
> their Shoulder Cannon...
Darkness Illusion is so slow that the s.fwd hits it out of the startup.
It's quite true that both WMs will fire a shoulder cannon, but
(depending the the button you use for the SC) one of them will recover
first, and from there on the stagger is nearly guaranteed. Any other
super you try could be easily blocked, or (again) poked with s.fwd,
missiles fall on out and combo, juggle for 80%.
> They could try to fight with ground normals until the War Destroyers
> start...
All ground normals do is give GWM-WM the stagger they want.
> >> Megaman/Roll: (from anywhere) Rush Drill. Wait for the War
> >> Destroyer,
> >> though.
> >
> >After Rush Drill ends, then what? Recovery is too long.
>
> Depends on positioning, I guess. You'll push GWM into WM or WM into
> GWM, and all three of you will be in the corner. WM will fly up then
> down being dizzy, and GWM may have a missle or two still going. Of
> course, the missles track their target as soon as they're launched,
> and don't change course afterwards. If Megaman/Roll wasn't in the
> corner to start with, then it's possible the recovery would be offset
> by the fact that the missles were firing at them all over the screen,
> with only the last few missles aiming at the corner, where they
> recover.
GWM will not have fired off any missiles, so when RD ends, they all fall
on MM, WM rolls, WD, WD, WD, WD, etc.
Also, your statement about the missiles not tracking is wrong; they just
track slowly. Test the following; do a WD against RV, at the last
possible moment, have RV walk forward. The missiles will not all land
in the same spot.
> >> Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
> >> (from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
> >
> >Most of these dashing strategies only work if both WMs are stuck in a
> >corner somewhere, doing WDs at the exact same time. It's not a
> >realistic assumption IMO.
>
> Call out the Dou, a WM comes in, you pushblock it. WMs are away from
> you, unless THEY dash first and start WDs.
If you pushblock the jumpin then he can stagger the WD right at the
beginning, and you are stuck in pushblock stun for too long to do
anything. I assumed this was a given.
> And if Ouroborous cancels missles, why dash first? Start it up and
> dash in. If it's GWM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, and then
> throw. If it's WM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, then Ragnarok.
Ouroboros doesn't cancel missiles. So....
> >> Spider-Man: (up close) Crawler Assault may get you away from the
> >missiles.
> >> (from a distance) Dash, then Ultimate Web Throw.
> >
> >No and no. GWM will kill both of these attempts.
>
> Ultimate Web Throw is invulnerable while throwing, but I don't know
> where he become vulnerable again: after letting go, right when
> landing, or not until he can block. In any case, dashing in
> first(assuming the distance is right) *might* be enough to go for UWT.
> Missles *are* very slow in retracking...
By the time Spidey dashes, jumps back, and actually activates the web,
he's already being hit by missiles (during the jump back). Think of it
this way; you already said the missiles are slow in retracking, so if he
dashes toward and then jumps back (the UWT activation), where does that
put him? Certainly you don't believe he dashes under the missiles and
jumps back over them?
> Slow enough in retracking that the Crawler Assault would get Spidey
> far enough across the screen(while doing damage) that by the time the
> missles retrace to where he is now, he'd be able to block.
Eventually, Spidey reaches GWM. At this point, if the missiles are
still on the way up, Spidey gets hit and juggled. If they missiles are
not (GWM is almost done with WD) then he just s.RHs Spidey out of the
recovery. These are not mind games or difficult strategies.... this is
Whack-A-Mole at it's finest.
> >> Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
> >
> >During Blodia Vulcan, GWM walks to mid screen, taunts a few times,
then
> >starts a WD. Jin dies.
>
> If WM in front: dash in and Saotome Crush. Heh, I have GOT to see
> this happen. Background all funky, GWM shooting missles trying to hit
> Jin, who's dragging WM all over the edge of the game. He's gonna be
> raining those things EVERYWHERE! :) Jin's got instant recovery too, if
> I'm not mistaken...
That move doesn't beat a WD by a LONG SHOT.
> If GWM in front: dash in, jab a few times, and punch throw, I guess.
> Hopefully recover in front of WM, and if he's still doing WD, Saotome
> Crush.
Again, throws aren't as good as one might think.
> A thought: is Jin vulnerable to WD missles while doing a Great
> Cyclone? And even if he is, it's a fairly even damage trade if WM
> can't recover in time to juggle...
He's vulnerable after, and yes, WM can jab roll after the cyclone super,
and juggle.
> >> Captain America: (up close) Final Justice if WM is in front, HCS if
> >> GWM.
> >
> >HCS is, again, a one-night-stand against staggered WDs; you might get
> >one, but then you're dead.
>
> Yeah, you're probably better off Cartwheeling away from missles,
> then doing Final Justice on WM. Or throw GWM, cartwheel, and Final
> Justice WM.
Of course, Cap will face whoever called the Duo, so these options don't
apply at all if GWM calls the Duo (cartwheeling into whatever). And
everything that applied to Morrigan's Darkness Illusion applies here, as
well.
> >> (from a distance) Dash, then choose your super.
> >
> >Neither one will get past GWM.
>
> We're talking about GWM being in back? Cartwheel's fast, and I'm
> fairly sure it's fast enough to beat out the missles retracking...
Another problem with the cartwheel theory: if you don't start it from
PRECISELY at the edge of whichever WM is in front of you, you'll end it
in the middle of the WD. Not the best career move.
> >> Venom/Hyper Venom: (up close) Try a Web Throw if WM is in front.
>
> Kick throw looks good here...then dash and try to throw the other
> WM.
Standard throw tactics, which I explained how defeat in the above.
> >> (from a distance) Do a Venom Web if you're all the
> >> way in the back, otherwise try to connect with a Web Throw.
> >
> >Venom Web is not invincible (during execution). GWM gets the kill.
>
> Maybe try a Fierce Venom Fang(to get close, it's got fast enough
> recovery), then dash in for kick throws.
What is the flight arc of a Fierce VF? You are nearly guaranteed to hit
one of the sets of WD missiles, on the way UP.
> >> Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
> >> (from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge,
> >then
> >> Gamma Tornado.
> >
> >One of the things that your solutions depend on is that WM gets hit.
> >If
> > a smart GWM-WM player sets up his staggers so that GWM is WDing and
> >WM
> >is free to block (which is easy to do, even early in the Duo, by
> >using
> >Shoulder Cannon), almost every single one of these solutions results
> >in
> >your character dying.
>
> Wait, I'm confused...doesn't the Shoulder Cannon make both WMs get
> stuck in the move?
>
> Is the entire fight against the GWM-WM duo then in order to disrupt
> the stagger before it starts?
To the first question, one will recover before the other.
To the second, yes. And it's an uphill fight (to say the least). Once
GWM-WM gets stagger (actually, once almost any Duo gets stagger) you
can't do anything.
> >> Gambit: (up close) Head to the wall behind you and Cajun Explosion.
> >> (from a distance) Dash, then Royal Flush.
> >
> >The missiles will track Cajun Explosion. Royal Flush gets killed by
> >GWM's missiles (whether it hits him or not).
>
> Any of Gambit's throws look good here too...
Lots of characters seem to have throwing as their only option....
> >> War Machine: (up close) WM has great throw priority. Use the
> >>Fierce
> >> one. (from a distance) Dash, then Proton Cannon.
> >
> >Proton Cannon?!?! Way too slow.
>
> Unless they have enough room to dash. Unlikely, however. (what does
> throw priority have to do with anything if they're doing a WD at the
> time?) And if you get the throw that pushes them across the screen,
> then that pretty much takes care of the missle retracking problem if
> you act fast enough coming out of it. If you're not pushing them into
> the corner right next to you, that is...
Again, your only option is "throw."
> >> Wolverine: (up close) Weapon X if WM is in front. Otherwise, try
> >> Berserker Slashing.
> >
> >Do you mean the speedup? Obviously, that does nothing against GWM.
>
> Berserker Slash = the move that sends Wolvie across the screen, with
> an invulnerable dash. That might work if you intentionally fall short
> of WM, then Weapon X. And if GWM's in front, slash slash slash
> (missles almost arrive), throw.
Wolvie's teleport slash doesn't have good receovery, by any means. And
if you contrive to get yourself in between the two WMs, that's all the
better for GWM-WM (s.fwd-QC in one direction plus KK, s.fwd, QC in other
direction plus KK, easy stagger). This is not even taking into account
the fact that getting trapped in the middle during a Duo is almost the
worst thing you can do, since you can be thrown from the back (into a
super in the "front").
> >> (from a distance) Berserker Slash, then do whatever.
> >
> >As above.
>
> What *is* the name of Wolvie's speedup super, though?
If you kill someone with the activation hit, it says "Berzerker Charge".
> >> Shadow Lady: (up close) Try throwing, or perhaps use Plasma Barrier
> >> and ram on the buttons.
> >
> >Which won't protect you from the "raindrops falling on your head".
>
> Throwing will take down at least one WM, with time to block. Dashing
> first would be preferable, she's got a pretty quick throw, so she
> could try to dash, throw, dash, and throw the other one. Block
> afterwards if she needs to, she got damage in...
This paragraph without the word "throw" doesn't amount to much.
> >> Lilith: (up close) see Morrigan, Splendour Love works too.
> >
> >During Splendor Love, GWM is free to walk around, taunt, WD,
> >whatever.
> >That move isn't exactly the fastest, either.
>
> Does Lilith still have the Vector Drain? (which is another Morrigan
> idea I'm too lazy to go back and add under her section) The rule with
> MegaGief/GWM is that all attacks do the same result as if they were
> blocked, so unblockable Vector Drain would grab whoever and then waste
> some of the Team Duo timer...even better, you can do it off a dash.
> (and besides, are the missles still tracking her current position at
> all points during the move? Oy, they're gonna be flying all over the
> place...)
Even if she does, it's a techable throw, and the strategies apply as
such.
> >Don't take what I'm saying as trying to discourage any hope of
> >beating
> >GWM-WM; I'm just saying that a lot of these things have been tried
> >already, and for the most part, people die more often from trying to
> >do
> >ineffective moves to counter the Duo, when they would have survived
> >(with plenty of life) if they had just gritted their teeth and
> >blocked.
>
> All of the above is theoretical, so anywhere from 0-100% of it would
> be effective. Probably 0%, if I'm misreading how a *good* WM/GWM
> player staggers(which would mean blockstun from the time you call the
> Duo, but if that's the case, then why discuss ANY of these ideas?).
>
> Anyway, my philosophy for fighting a Duo is this: I'm going to take
> a lot of block damage, so get AS MUCH of my own in as I can, and THEN
> block(if applicable). Even if it's a single throw, I attempt to claim
> as much damage as possible...this is also kinda good since most throws
> have instant recovery(you're invulnerable one instant, the next you
> can block).
I don't think it's worth trying to get in "as much as one can" if it
increases the damage you will likely take from 45% to 80%.
Adrian Ratliff
I have a few small questions...
Spider-Dan <spid...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7rj8sg$rsc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <37dc578a...@news.pacinter.net>,
> rhi...@oasis.quay.com (Rylan Hilman) wrote:
> >
>
>
> > >> Strider Hiryu: (up close) Ragnarok if WM is in front, throw if not.
> > >> (from a distance) Dash and turn on Ouruburos.
> > >
> > >Most of these dashing strategies only work if both WMs are stuck in a
> > >corner somewhere, doing WDs at the exact same time. It's not a
> > >realistic assumption IMO.
> >
> > Call out the Dou, a WM comes in, you pushblock it. WMs are away from
> > you, unless THEY dash first and start WDs.
>
> If you pushblock the jumpin then he can stagger the WD right at the
> beginning, and you are stuck in pushblock stun for too long to do
> anything. I assumed this was a given.
>
> > And if Ouroborous cancels missles, why dash first? Start it up and
> > dash in. If it's GWM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, and then
> > throw. If it's WM in front, combo the hoohah outta him, then Ragnarok.
>
> Ouroboros doesn't cancel missiles. So....
>
Will the Legion (I don't know all the Super names:animal super) cancel the
missles falling down AND go through the WDs? I would think that then all it
would take is a Super Cannon to then go throw the Legion and Strider.
> > >> Jin: (from anywhere) Blodia Vulcan. Wait for the War Destroyer.
> > >
> > >During Blodia Vulcan, GWM walks to mid screen, taunts a few times,
> then
> > >starts a WD. Jin dies.
> >
> > If WM in front: dash in and Saotome Crush. Heh, I have GOT to see
> > this happen. Background all funky, GWM shooting missles trying to hit
> > Jin, who's dragging WM all over the edge of the game. He's gonna be
> > raining those things EVERYWHERE! :) Jin's got instant recovery too, if
> > I'm not mistaken...
>
> That move doesn't beat a WD by a LONG SHOT.
>
> > If GWM in front: dash in, jab a few times, and punch throw, I guess.
> > Hopefully recover in front of WM, and if he's still doing WD, Saotome
> > Crush.
>
> Again, throws aren't as good as one might think.
>
> > A thought: is Jin vulnerable to WD missles while doing a Great
> > Cyclone? And even if he is, it's a fairly even damage trade if WM
> > can't recover in time to juggle...
>
> He's vulnerable after, and yes, WM can jab roll after the cyclone super,
> and juggle.
>
Can the Jin Cyclone Super pick up 2 Characters? I've Maximum Spidered
before and picked up both of the characters and carried them with me.
>
> > >> Hulk/Orange Hulk: (up close) Fierce Gamma Tornado.
> > >> (from a distance) Try a Forward Gamma Charge,
> > >then
> > >> Gamma Tornado.
> > >
Will the Rock Crushing Super take out two War Destroying WMs?
> > Does Lilith still have the Vector Drain? (which is another Morrigan
> > idea I'm too lazy to go back and add under her section) The rule with
> > MegaGief/GWM is that all attacks do the same result as if they were
> > blocked, so unblockable Vector Drain would grab whoever and then waste
> > some of the Team Duo timer...even better, you can do it off a dash.
> > (and besides, are the missles still tracking her current position at
> > all points during the move? Oy, they're gonna be flying all over the
> > place...)
>
> Even if she does, it's a techable throw, and the strategies apply as
> such.
>
Does her super that comes up from the ground have good invincibility? If
so, couldn't you just do that as they start their supers and if it will hit
them then and knock out WM? Will she recover in time to block GWMs Super?
> --
> Dan Thompson
> [send e-mail to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Just curious. : )
Sincerely,
Adrian
Ricardo A Lafaurie Jr.
> Will the Legion (I don't know all the Super names:animal super) cancel the
> missles falling down AND go through the WDs? I would think that then all it
> would take is a Super Cannon to then go throw the Legion and Strider.
No, it takes out SOME but not all.
> Will the Rock Crushing Super take out two War Destroying WMs?
Not by a long shot.
> Does her super that comes up from the ground have good invincibility? If
> so, couldn't you just do that as they start their supers and if it will hit
> them then and knock out WM? Will she recover in time to block GWMs Super?
Splendor Love will go through missiles, but not knock out GWM.
By the way, I noticed that it is possible for Ryu to do an air Shinkuu-Hadouken
against this. It will take out most of the missiles, and he only takes minor
damage.