Rules About Traversing Airspace Part II
Dallas
- Class A begins at FL18.
- Class B airspace typically rises to 10,000 feet.
- So we've got 8,000 feet of Class E above the Class B airspace
Let's use KDFW as an example. On a typical day all the heavy iron is
landing on the 18 runways. Billy Bob VFR Cessna driver wants to avoid Class
B hassles and takes it up to 13,500 feet heading east. Let's say he's north
of the airport. What we have here is a VFR Cessna crossing all the heavy
iron approaches in the area between Class B and Class A. It just seems like
there is zone where 300 knot jets are blasting through uncontrolled airspace
and Billy Bob's only defense is good eyesight and a rabbit's foot?
Something seems wrong here.
Dallas
Handsome
"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:_5O7d.1537$M05....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Hi
KDFW Approach would save you from your death wish I imagine.
Must be controled airspace near a field
Petebert
"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:_5O7d.1537$M05....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
pr
> There is a question that has bothered me concerning Class B airspace:
> - Class A begins at FL18.
> - Class B airspace typically rises to 10,000 feet.
> - So we've got 8,000 feet of Class E above the Class B airspace
>
> Let's use KDFW as an example. On a typical day all the heavy iron is
> landing on the 18 runways. Billy Bob VFR Cessna driver wants to avoid Class
> B hassles and takes it up to 13,500 feet heading east. Let's say he's north
> of the airport. What we have here is a VFR Cessna crossing all the heavy
> iron approaches in the area between Class B and Class A.
You got it. However, keep the following in mind:
* Above 12,500 feet, a pilot flying an unpressurized aircraft must
breath supplemental oxygen (the 02 rule does specify different altitudes
and durations, but that is irrelevant to the point here).
* Most piston-driven aircraft are normally aspirated, rather than turbo-
equipped. This means that their service ceiling is typically between
10-16,000 feet. Add a hot day into the mix, and you can lower those
ceilings by a few thousand feet.
Incidentally, to squeak out those last one-to-two thousand feet on a
normal day, a greater amount of climb time and fuel burn is needed. For
most pilots and trip durations, the time and fuel needed are not worth
the altitude.
What is my point? Simply that the majority of slow, Billy Bob-driven
aircraft are around 10,000 feet or below. The sky is bigger above 10k.
> It just seems like
> there is zone where 300 knot jets are blasting through uncontrolled airspace
> and Billy Bob's only defense is good eyesight and a rabbit's foot?
For the majority and perhaps all (I am too lazy to look up every class B
at the moment) of the United States, the airspace above class B is class
E, which *is* controlled airspace.
Uncontrolled airspace is class G, which more voluminous in the western
US.
From what I have heard at those mid-altitudes in the busy skies of the
northeastern US, the controllers will call out all traffic, both VFR and
IFR, to IFR pilots. Below 10,000 feet, I have read that most class-B
controllers filter out VFR traffic or primary returns to reduce the
clutter, but I have never heard of them doing this from 10,000 feet up.
With all that written, you are right. Pilots of VFR aircraft outside of
class B airspace are responsible for their own separation. Pilots of
IFR aircraft are also responsible for their own separation from VFR
aircraft, when conditions allow VFR flight. That is why very complex
and expensive TCAS (traffic alert/collision avoidance system) units are
becoming ubiquitous in commercial aircraft.
--
Peter
Chris Ehlbeck
the Class B at a lower altitude? I've never heard of MSFS denying it. In
fact they won't even make you alter your course.
In real life it's a bit different. I have flown through Atlanta's (KATL)
Class B 4 times now (2 different flights) on VFR flights. Each time I was
cleared and "vectored" through the airspace and was flown directly over the
airport at 5,000 MSL. Pretty safe place to be if you think about it. It is
dependant on their workload though. I've requested flight following before
and been told "Standby, especially if you're VFR." Translation= No, we're
too busy.
Another thing to remember is that the floor of the class B typically rises
the further you are from the airport.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PPASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive hamburgers."
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bc9cf024...@text-west.newsfeeds.com...
Kevin Darling
To legally be either within the 30 mile Mode C veil of that airport,
or above 10000 feet, Billy Bob will have his altitude-encoding
transponder on. That's all that's needed for ATC to route everyone
around him safely.
A smarter pilot will also be in contact with ATC for flight following
advisories, but it's not at all required or necessary.
Kev
pr
> But why not just contact center or approach and request transition through
> the Class B at a lower altitude?
I am not Dallas (the original poster), but my interpretation of his post
was not that he was asking a question about entering class B. Rather,
he was asking about VFR aircraft in the airspace above class B, which is
a legitimate question.
--
Peter
The Lindbergh Baby
You forgot Bible and ejector seat. ;-)
John
--
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address
Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
The Lindbergh Baby
airspace?
Thx.
pr
> What are the different altitude divisons for the different classes of
> airspace?
In the US:
Class A is 18,000 feet to 60,000 feet. Only IFR flights are allowed in
this airspace.
Class B typically looks like an upside-down wedding cake, with the
innermost ring from the surface to 10,000 feet. The outer rings start
at higher altitudes (this altitude varies depending on their proximity
to the preferred arrival or departure routes). This would be the
airspace around the busiest, largest towered airports.
Class C is normally from the surface to 4,000 above ground level (AGL).
This would be the airspace around the moderately busy, towered airports.
Class D is surface to 2,500 AGL. This is the airspace around the less
busy, towered airports.
Class E typically begins at either 700 or 1,200 AGL, up to 17,999 feet
(the floor of class A) or the floor of class C or B airspace, whatever
is straight above it.
Class G is uncontrolled airspace, which means even IFR aircraft are on
their own for IFR traffic and terrain separation. In the east, the only
class G airspace found is airspace outside of B,C, and D airspace, from
the ground to either 700 or 1,200 feet AGL.
In the west, class G is much more common, starting at the ground and
going to 14,500 feet.
These different airspaces have different types of VFR cloud clearances
and visibility requirements. For example, class G, the most liberal
(where there probably will not be any fast moving IFR aircraft), permits
the operation of VFR aircraft when the weather is down to one mile
visibility and simply for the aircraft to remain clear of clouds (even
right up next to a cloud, if there really is such a place).
Here is a good cross-section diagram of the US airspace:
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/airspace.htm
--
Peter
Dallas
"Petebert"
> Billy Bob is the man and he's good to go.
I'd bet 10 of the 12 mid air collisions in the USA each year involve a guy
named Bill Bob from Texas. Yeee Hawww! Get 'er Done!
Dallas
Dallas
> the airspace above class B is class
> E, which *is* controlled airspace.
Yeah, the "Class E Operations Permitted: IFR and VFR" threw me off... Look a
little further down and they show "Aircraft Separation: IFR and SVFR".
(Special VFR)
So why didn't they say: "Operations Permitted: IFR and *S*VFR"
Dallas
Petebert
say the airport is over his left shoulder then when looks over his right he
will see the traffic descending for final, if his mode C is turned on the
approach controller is issuing traffic to the airliners and the airliners
see Bob on tcas.
"Kevin Darling" <kdar...@basit.com> wrote in message
news:28e9a152.04100...@posting.google.com...
Handsome
airspace as far as IFR flights are concerned and they require clearance to
enter it.
I am sure though that there must be strict regulations within any major
airports control zone about what VFR pilots may or may not do including max
altitude or perhaps VFR "corridors"
I used to do loads of VFR on Vatsim and nearly all was around 3000ft. To
the best of my knowledge you couldn't fly any higher than the the min alt
for any low level airways that you may cross. All airways being controlled
airspace. If you wanted to fly higher it had to be as IFR.
Plus you always contacted ATC well in advence to request transit or simply
avoided busy airspace................ but if VFR w/out a radio....... what
do you do.... avoid it I assume.
Nightmare of a topic for here considereing different countries will have
different rules.
Martin
"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:_5O7d.1537$M05....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Petebert
want in the class E, it is controlled but only the IFR aircraft get control
instructions and anyone that calls for flight following, and I think its
pretty rare for civi's to hit airliners, last one I can recall was in the
70's and it was at an airport under tower control, LAX maybe? most midairs I
hear about are between fighters in MOA's and vfr GA vs. vfr GA.
"Handsome" <tdbsc...@REMOVEbtconnect.com> wrote in message
news:cjpvos$dre$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
Petebert
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
"Petebert" <cas...@nthrax.org> wrote in message
news:NG08d.138$a07....@news.uswest.net...
Petebert
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21351&key=1
"Petebert" <cas...@nthrax.org> wrote in message
news:NG08d.138$a07....@news.uswest.net...
Roger Halstead
wrote:
>here you go fellers, do a search for midair
>
>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
>
>"Petebert" <cas...@nthrax.org> wrote in message
>news:NG08d.138$a07....@news.uswest.net...
>> class E is uncontrolled airspace, at least if your VFR you do whatever you
>> want in the class E, it is controlled but only the IFR aircraft get
>> control instructions and anyone that calls for flight following, and I
>> think its pretty rare for civi's to hit airliners, last one I can recall
>> was in the 70's and it was at an airport under tower control, LAX maybe?
>> most midairs I hear about are between fighters in MOA's and vfr GA vs. vfr
Quite some time ago I was climbing out to pattern altitude at our
airport. Coming up on pattern altitude I lowered the nose to gain
speed and get a better view only to find a windshield full of
airliner. We were far enough apart I was not worried about a
collision, but he flew right through the down wind leg. When I turned
down wind he was already over a mile away and disappearing, but I was
looking *down* on him. He was a good 11 miles from his destination
and well below any approaches for that airport. The lowest approach to
them over us is 2600, or about a 1000 above the pattern.
He was probably receiving vectors, but I have no idea as to why he was
that low, particularly over a large town.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
boB
>
> Quite some time ago I was climbing out to pattern altitude at our
> airport. Coming up on pattern altitude I lowered the nose to gain
> speed and get a better view only to find a windshield full of
> airliner. We were far enough apart I was not worried about a
> collision, but he flew right through the down wind leg. When I turned
> down wind he was already over a mile away and disappearing, but I was
> looking *down* on him. He was a good 11 miles from his destination
> and well below any approaches for that airport. The lowest approach to
> them over us is 2600, or about a 1000 above the pattern.
>
> He was probably receiving vectors, but I have no idea as to why he was
> that low, particularly over a large town.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
That's something a person would never forget, or ever want to see in the
first place for that matter. I think you were very lucky there.
--
boB
U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Dallas
That's pretty much what I was talking about.
The guys that make these rules up have been at it for 50+ years. There has
to be a reason why don't they extend Class B up to 18,000 feet so the big
guys can operate in controled air space 100% of the flight.
Dallas
pr
> so the big
> guys can operate in controled air space 100% of the flight.
You're killing me here, big D. Class E airspace *is* controlled
airspace. :)
--
Peter
The Lindbergh Baby
FL18. He meant FL180. That confused me!
Phew! :-)
Paul Riley
news:4160CEFA...@XXXexcite.com...
In 1969, flying north along a canal in Vietnam in a Huey, I suddenly noticed
a lot of water splashes appearing ahead of me. Next thing I saw was an F-100
pop nose up from about 100 AGL (I was around 1500) on a reciprocal heading.
He saw me at the same time I saw him. We both broke right, HARD right, and
missed each other by about 500 meters. Nose to nose, that bird was the
biggest I have ever seen. <G>
I had an Air Force LNO on board, who was SUPPOSEDLY controlling those birds
on their strafing runs and he had told me they were all "high and dry".
Needless to say there was a short, clear and loud one way discussion over
the intercom.
You are right boB, one never forgets something like that.
Paul
(Also, retired US Army Aviator--1978)
Petebert
for all if your VFR
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bcaa3564...@text-west.newsfeeds.com...
pr
> when your IFR every you go is controlled airspace but the class E is a free
> for all if your VFR
I understand, but that doesn't mean the class E airspace (in the US) is
uncontrolled.
--
Peter
pr
> "pr"
> > the airspace above class B is class
> > E, which *is* controlled airspace.
>
> Yeah, the "Class E Operations Permitted: IFR and VFR" threw me off... Look a
> little further down and they show "Aircraft Separation: IFR and SVFR".
> (Special VFR)
I never got to use SVFR before I had my instrument rating, and now that
I have it I always file IFR or request a pop-up clearance if weather is
right near minimums. Thus, my understanding might be slightly off, but
here goes (all applicable to US only):
My take is that SVFR is actually a type of ATC clearance, much like a
clearance to enter class B airspace, rather than a larger set of flight
rules, such as VFR and IFR.
The differences are:
* You do not file an SVFR flight plan. Instead you request SVFR of the
controller (clearance or ground if departing, approach if arriving), who
then either grants or denies it, based on his workload. SVFR does
provide some set traffic separation, so you will see that most, if not
all, class B airports do not allow SVFR operations (it would make a mess
of the IFR traffic, who must be separated away from the SVFR aircraft).
* There is a defined termination point when flying SVFR. If approaching
an airport it will be the landing, and if departing, it will be "upon
reaching VFR conditions." Thus, SVFR is meant to be a type of temporary
clearance, rather than flight-long.
Of course, one could make the argument that they are repositioning an
aircraft from one airport to another twenty miles away or less, in which
case it is plausible that the weather would be the same at both
departing and arriving airports and SVFR is needed the entire way, but
in general the previous paragraph is true.
> So why didn't they say: "Operations Permitted: IFR and *S*VFR"
To sum up, SVFR is a subset of VFR, much like an approach clearance is a
subset of IFR. The method in which this statement was made is all-
encompassing.
Is that clear as mud? :)
--
Peter
Dallas
> You're killing me here, big D. Class E airspace *is* controlled
> airspace. :)
I've even confused myself! :-)
Hey, thanks pr.. great stuff as usual.
Dallas