What is ILS and how is it used?
newuser
thanks
barry
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donbutts
"newuser" <hots...@gate.net> wrote in message
news:b7glj9$h17$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
angle which you have to find and position yourself for. When you are
roughly on runway course and little below the required glide slope the auto
pilot plus the 'approach' switch will catch the course and the glide slope
to bring the aircraft down automatically to the runway threshhold. From
there on its normally manual.
Don
Shane H
the autopilot doing 200 knots.
My required touchdown speed is 100 knots.
What controls speed along the glideslope and the required decend rate?
The reason I'm asking is because I tried 'approach' on autopilot a number of
times but usually the plane would loose the glideslope and I have to turn
off the autopliot and land manually.
ShaneH
"donbutts" <donb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:59Rma.69155$jE3.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
donbutts
make too many variants to the aircraft during the controlled glideslope
travel. So I would approach at a speed closer to that as at landing. I
have no idea what aircraft you are referring to but on entering the
glideslope say hold 120 knots on auto throttle or manual at 15 deg flap
(depending on aircraft) and just sit at that.. maybe reduce to 110 and
increase flap. Close to the runway when you can switch off A/T and or reduce
speed to 100 knots, flare and touch down.
Don
"Shane H" <s...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:P0Sma.6686$hF.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Handsome
runway.
Speed and altitude you have to control yourself.
Martin
"Shane H" <s...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
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pr
> As far as I'm aware the "APR" button will only hold you on course for the
> runway.
> Speed and altitude you have to control yourself.
Actually, APR (approach mode) will hold both glideslope (vertical guidance)
*and* localizer (lateral guidance - runway centerline). The descent down
the glideslope is controlled by the AP. However, in the smaller aircraft
such as the C172, the pilot must properly control the throttle to ensure
the aircraft neither gets too slow or too fast.
If the pilot merely wanted to track the localizer (see above), then the
pilot can simply use the NAV mode. Just be sure that the NAV/GPS switch is
set to NAV.
--
Peter
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Handsome
Never new that. I always fly small stuff and fly in using ILS as
guidance.(not on auto)
Sorry for mis-info
Martin
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1905e9092...@text-west.newsfeeds.com...
pr
> Can it land a plane safely if something wrong happens during flight?
> thanks
ILS stands for Instrument Landing System and is a common precision approach
that aircraft normally fly during low visibility to land at runways so
equipped. "Precision approach" means that both runway centerline and
altitude descent information are provided by radio frequencies and received
by an instrument within the cockpit.
An ILS-equipped runway is provided by the airport. The aircraft is
equipped with instruments to receive the ILS frequencies and fly the
approach down to land at a runway.
ILS is comprised of the following components:
1) Localizer - a frequency that is beamed straight out of the runway and
provides aircraft with runway centerline (lateral) guidance.
2) Glideslope - a frequency that is beamed straight out of the runway and
provides aircraft with altitude descent guidance.
3) Markers - Outer, middle, and sometimes inner. Marker beacons are
transmitter towers that are located at intervals on the approach path into
the runway. These towers beam a frequency straight up so that an aircraft
crossing the tower will receive both an audio and visual cue in the
cockpit.
The outer marker is typically located between 5 and 8 nm out from the
runway, the middle marker is typically located 1/2 mile from the runway an
often denotes the missed approach point (the point at which an aircraft
must begin climbing back up if runway not in sight).
The inner marker, located about 1/4 mile from touchdown, is used only by
larger aircraft where the aircraft and the crew are certified to fly that
low without runway in sight. Not all ILS approaches have an inner marker.
4) Approach lights. These are the "Christmas tree (red, green, white)"
lights you see coming into a runway. These lights provide runway location
and aircraft wing leveling cues during a low visibility descent.
5) Runway environment lights - these are the lights that identify the
runway itself, including the runway threshold lights, centerline lights,
runway end identifier lights, runway edge lighting, etc.
As I indicated above, the ILS is used by all aircraft desiring to land at
an ILS-equipped runway during low visibility (rain, snow, fog, mist, dark
night, etc).
To answer your question, the immediacy of the emergency and what equipment
are affected would determine whether an aircraft would use an ILS to land.
An aircraft experiencing an emergency would need an ILS-equipped runway
nearby to be able to follow it down and land.
--
Peter R.
pr
> Thx Peter
>
> Never new that. I always fly small stuff and fly in using ILS as
> guidance.(not on auto)
>
> Sorry for mis-info
That's quite alright. :)
Last Saturday I took up my aircraft (IRL) to fly a few ILS approaches on a
windy day using the same Bendix/King AP as in FS2002's C172. Let me point
out that the AP modeled in FS2002 is much more accurate flying an ILS and
therefore unrealistic than its real-life counterpart.
During two separate attempts, the AP would not grab and settle in on the
localizer (most likely due to the moderate crosswinds). It kept over-
correcting, causing us to dramatically weave about the sky. Finally, I had
to disengage it and hand-fly the aircraft the rest of the way in.
And this is a new AP.... sheesh.
--
Peter R.
Tom Orle
>As far as I'm aware the "APR" button will only hold you on course for the
>runway.
>Speed and altitude you have to control yourself.
>
>
>Martin
Speed yes - altitude no, if the approach has a glideslope. But up to
the intercept you can have the AP hold the altitude. Just like the
heading - upon glideslope capture the altitude light will turn off.
I usually turn on the approach about 30 nm out at anywhere from 4000
to 6000 feet agl and a speed of less than 250knots (remember, in the
US you need to be at 250 knots or less under 10,000 feet!!). The
localizer usually captures the heading around 28 nm out and the
glideslope a bit less than 20.
-=tom=-
Shane H
BTW is 'autothrottle', the same as 'speed hold' on the autopilot? Or are
that 2 things? I saw an autopilot that has a dial to set the speed and an
IAS on/off toggle and also a seperate auto-pwr arm/off toggle.
ShaneH
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1905e9092...@text-west.newsfeeds.com...
Tom Orle
>Thanks for the replies,
>
>BTW is 'autothrottle', the same as 'speed hold' on the autopilot? Or are
>that 2 things? I saw an autopilot that has a dial to set the speed and an
>IAS on/off toggle and also a seperate auto-pwr arm/off toggle.
>
>ShaneH
Auto-pwr must be on for speed hold to work.
Just like the main AP switch must be on for the other AP functions to
work.
-=tom=-
BCA03
"Tom Orle" <or...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:2oto9vsvnjfu0tgem...@4ax.com...
Couple of points that may be of interest Tom.
That 250 Kts below 10 000 feet ( FL100 ) is a Worldwide thing, not just in
the States, although it is broken on a regular basis. The classic case is a
heavy 747. IRL the Pilot will often request and expect to get cleared to
climb at 280 or so.
The Glidelsope usually goes out at an Angle of 3 degrees, ( not withstanding
local obstacles or mountains etc. ) This approximates to around 300 feet per
Nm. So if an airfield is 500 feet above Sea level, the Glideslope will be at
3500 feet when 10 Nm from the runway, or thereabouts. There is also
something referred to as the " ILS platform ". This is the height at which
you should be hitting the Glideslope, and is often between 2000 and 3000
feet.(QNH not QFE)
Aint nothing wrong with looking to capture it when still nigh on 20 Nm from
the runway of course.
HTH
Chris J
Tom Orle
>Couple of points that may be of interest Tom.
>
>That 250 Kts below 10 000 feet ( FL100 ) is a Worldwide thing, not just in
>the States, although it is broken on a regular basis.
Thanks - I wasn't aware of that ... the Worldwide thing, not that it's
being broken that is :-))
> This is the height at which
>you should be hitting the Glideslope, and is often between 2000 and 3000
>feet.(QNH not QFE)
>
>Aint nothing wrong with looking to capture it when still nigh on 20 Nm from
>the runway of course.
>Chris J
Well, in real life you'd usually use approach charts spelling it all
out for you.
But on the sim it takes a while for the acft to stabilize after the
initial capture. So the further out I intercept it, the more stable
and comfortable the last few Nm's on the approach.
Just a personal preference on the sim. In RL flying I don't drag it
out quite that far - the controllers would hate me dragging a C172 in
for 20 to 30 Nm's :-))
-=tom=-
newuser
would be this long. Hope that's ok.
barrynews:MPG.1905ed03...@text-west.newsfeeds.com...
pr
> Thanks for your most helpful replies everyone. I didn't know the thread
> would be this long. Hope that's ok.
That is certainly OK! :) There have been some accusations that this
group has not been as helpful lately as in the "good ole days," but
everywhere I look I see evidence to the contrary.
--
Peter
newuser
This used to be a feature in some earlier sims. If an aircraft was in
trouble or you just wanted to review the landing procedure, you clicked on a
Land Me and the plane would find the designated airport and land itself via
ILS or whatever.
I don't see this in FS2002.
Is there a way to set this up for a trial flight or anyplace on the web that
discusses this?
Thanks again.
Smooth flying, all
barry
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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Alan White
wrote:
>Apologies for my new post elsewhere.
>This used to be a feature in some earlier sims. If an aircraft was in
>trouble or you just wanted to review the landing procedure, you clicked on a
>Land Me and the plane would find the designated airport and land itself via
>ILS or whatever.
>I don't see this in FS2002.
>
It was in FS95 but I think it disappeared with FS98.
--
Alan White
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow.
Overlooking Loch Goil and Loch Long in Argyll, Scotland.
http://tinyurl.com/55v3
CHANGE username to westes
in FS2002 as well. I've been told that the simple autopilot used in the
Cessna 172 doesn't do well in windy conditions, both in general and with ILS
/ APR approaches in specific.
--
Will
NOTE: To reply, CHANGE the username to westes AT uscsw.com
"pr" <no...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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CHANGE username to westes
below, the APR mode in the autopilot should automatically compensate for
airspeed by adjusting the stabilizer. Thus, it's possible to follow the
glideslope down at many different airspeeds, and a good autopilot will
continue to track the ILS.
Some general observations:
1) NEVER try to catch the ILS from above. It just doesn't work reliably.
To make it work you end up having to do a radical dive from above to well
below the glideslope, then even out and catch it from below. This would be
aerobatics, and probably your controller would not be amused. :)
2) You are really well served by buying the Jeppesen SIM Charts 2.0 add-in,
available directly on the Jeppesen web site. You need to buy three $29
licenses to activate the entire world, I believe. Rather than just fake it
and look for an ILS beam in the GPS, it's a lot more interesting to get out
an approach plate, and learn to set up the approach similar to what a real
life pilot would do. These charts aren't that difficult to read, and after
a while you get a real thrill from being able to go into an airport you know
nothing about and do an approach that would mirror what a real approach
would look like.
What you will end up doing is flying either GPS direct to an intersection or
VOR, then approach the ILS at the altitude and angle that the approach plate
says you should.
3) Don't assume that being on the ILS means you are safe. If you don't
watch the glidescope indications, it is pretty common to underpower on the
approach and fly below the glideslope. I can't quantify how much above the
glideslope you should try to be, but you shouldn't let yourself fall below
it in IFR conditions anyway. If you get under the glideslope you can
increase engine power to get back up.
4) Hitting the glideslope at 200 knots to land at 100 knots sounds pretty
aggressive. What kind of airplane are you landing? I can't give you the
proper technique for a jet, as my landings with jets are still pure hack
efforts (I land, but probably the passengers are calling their lawyers :).
With Cessna Grand Caravan, I can come in around 140 knots and get
comfortably down to under 80 knots on touchdown by extending the second flap
position at 2.5 knots out (measured by DME) and then bring power way down at
around 2 knots out. At just before the threshold I put out the third flap
position, go to manual approach, and do two or three gentle pullups to slow
down before touchdown.
5) The small planes in FS2002 have bad autopilots that won't stay on an ILS
in heavy winds, particularly heavy cross winds. Apparently this is true to
real life. These autopilots tend to overcompensate by responding to every
displacement of the plane. Better autopilots tend to average several
inputs together and thus compensate for outside forces like wind more
appropriately.
All of the above is HORRIBLY documented in FS2002. I had to piece this all
together by constantly asking annoying questions, which the members of this
group most graciously tolerated, and I just learned by many dozens of failed
approaches. Once you get the hang of it, it's generally quite reliable.
My one complaint is that there is not currently a GPS controlled ILS-type
approach mechanism because GPS is not accurate enough. I completely
understand why GPS might not work well for a glideslope controlled approach
in IFR conditions. But clearly GPS *would* be plenty accurate enough for a
glideslope controlled approach in VFR conditions!! And this is still my
biggest problem: I very often come into a small airfield from too high an
altitude. Often these fields have no glideslope lights to indicate your
position relative to the correct glideslope. This forces me to do a "death
dive" with two or three flaps extended, at very high airspeed. I end up
crossing the runway threshold at far too high a speed, and if I'm not lucky
enough to have a long runway I have to go around. If the airfield is
facing into a mountain or steep slope on the other side you can quickly find
yourself in a life or death situation. If there were a GPS-controlled
glideslope approach you should be able to approach it from above as easily
as from below, and once you are on that glideslope you can MUCH more easily
begin to control your speed during the descent, by adjusting power without
having to worry about the trim. All these things I'm sure you learn to
calculate for with more experience than I have. But a GPS-controlled
glideslope approach would make it a lot easier.
--
Will
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"Shane H" <s...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
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ShaneH
The number of 200kts and 100kts I picked at random, just to illustrate my
problem. Most the time I fly and land without autopilot, usually military
jets, but on occasions I tried the autopilot's APPR. I get it to work maybe
20% of the time. I thought the FS2002 autopilot is more effective, (would
both keep the plane on the glideslope and hold the speed) but your and
others explanations tell me that's not always the case. But its not a mayor
issue for me, I'm quite happy to land manual most of the time. Just wanted
to know what I'm missing here.
ShaneH
"CHANGE username to westes" <DELETE...@uscsw.com> wrote in message
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C Yank
realworld, Cessna's love to crab in a crosswind, and no amount of autopilot
is going to correct quartering headwind of 15 kts...you'll usually have to
sideslip it in.
But then again, that's half the fun; learning how to sideslip was not the
easiest thing in the world, but once you do it, you understand it. Put the
wing that's into the wind down a little and feed it a little opposite rudder
for the slip...so if you have a left quartering or more than quartering
crosswind, put the the left wing down a little (into the wind) and feed
right rudder until she lines up...usually works, even in the sim.
"CHANGE username to westes" <DELETE...@uscsw.com> wrote in message
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