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TRH...@aol.com

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

Hehe just shot off about 200 rockets:) It looks pretty neat Jens!

Tim
------------------------------------
Flight Simulator Toolkit Mailing List
majo...@bigpanda.com
------------------------------------
Join the FST Web Ring!
http://www.mcnett.org/fst/webring/

Mike Gilmartin

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Feb 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/4/98
to

Jens,

E-mail me I need to talk to you about some FST stuff.

mgil...@eidos.com

Joe Marullo

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Feb 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/5/98
to

A web-ring and mailing list dedicated to Flight Sim Toolkit. Where were
all you people when I was struggling for information almost four years ago?

Too cool. :)

Jens B?rner

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Feb 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/5/98
to

Joe Marullo schrieb:

>
> A web-ring and mailing list dedicated to Flight Sim Toolkit. Where were
> all you people when I was struggling for information almost four years ago?
>
> Too cool. :)


And where have u been? We are here since long!
Especially funny since you seem to be employed at the company that
produced FST.
I thought you all know about us????

Jens
????

Joe Marullo

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Feb 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/5/98
to

Yesterday was the first time any of us(that I'm aware of here at the U.S.
office anyway) had seen the web ring or the mailing list. It was
definitely great to see though.

Yes, I work at Eidos. Started working here around three years ago (thanks
to Flight Sim Tookit in fact.. I had won a FST scenario design contest
Computer Gaming World and Eidos(Domark at the time) were sponsoring, and
then took them up on a job offer).

I need to do some more exploring through the web ring later. I saw a lot of
interesting scenarios I'd like to try out. :)

TRH...@aol.com

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Feb 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/5/98
to

In a message dated 98-02-05 14:29:44 EST, you write:

<< Yesterday was the first time any of us(that I'm aware of here at the U.S.
office anyway) had seen the web ring or the mailing list. It was
definitely great to see though.

Yes, I work at Eidos. Started working here around three years ago (thanks
to Flight Sim Tookit in fact.. I had won a FST scenario design contest
Computer Gaming World and Eidos(Domark at the time) were sponsoring, and
then took them up on a job offer). >>

What did you make?:)

Tim

Http://members.aol.com/trhoke/home.htm


Wha

Larry Brown

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Feb 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/5/98
to

I thought your name rang a bell. Hey is there ever a chance of us in the
mailing list to take a look at your "Battle of Hoth" sim? I know Domark
(now Eidos) couldn't release it because of Lucas Arts copyright for the
Star Wars Universe. I have heard alot about your sim and have been
wantting to take a look for years.
Larry

"Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
Diamond Multimedia
Larry Brown
Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
Technical Support
lar...@diamondmm.com
7101 Supra Drive
Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
Technical Support (541)967-2450
BBS (541)967-2444
FaxBack (800)380-0030
http://www.diamondmm.com
Tech support hours: Mon-Fri 5am-7pm PST Sat 8am-4pm PST
Live Technical Support Chat: Tuesday 10AM-12PM PST, Thursday 3PM-5PM PST
Server: chat.talkcity.com Port: 6667 Channel: #diamond


> ----------
> From: Joe Marullo[SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]
> Reply To: FST Mailing List
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 11:46 AM
> To: FST Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Wow :)
>
> A Star Wars "Battle of Hoth" scenario.

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Wow! Can I persume that EIDOS is revitalizing interest in FST with the
1998 version?
I mean, If you guys actually continued to develop FST, You would have
given Microsoft the Megashaft on FS5/6/98!...I mean, A product that makes
10 most innovative games of all times in Spetember 1995 issue of CGM..and
you guys stop developing. I guess the Top brass in Domark didn't really
done their homework on this one, eh?
One thing I like about FST is that it's just like FS except you can
do Military Sims...The tools are complete, and you don't need the player
to own the full FST to let them play it...Just distro the executable
binary!
Anyway, Any chance EIDOS designers can contribute to FST98?

:0kev


On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Mike Gilmartin wrote:

> Joe is one of the best shape artists here at Eidos (He is being modest) He is currently working on the Player shapes that will appear in an
up and coming W.W. II flight Sim called Confirmed Kill.
>
> Mike
>
> ----------
> From: TRH...@aol.com [SMTP:TRH...@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 11:52 AM
> To: f...@bigpanda.com
> Subject: Re: Wow :)


>
> In a message dated 98-02-05 14:51:39 EST, you write:
>
> << A Star Wars "Battle of Hoth" scenario. >>
>

> Kewl I thought so! And like Charles say's your already famous here:))
>
> Tim

Joe Marullo

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Oh, trust me.. we use tools very similar to FST (just next generation
stuff I guess you could call it). Some of us could never forget the
program as it is the one thing we see and deal with day after day after day
after..

Actually, I visit Forest Pearson's web page a lot. But there are no links
to a mailing list or the web-ring there. He has some other FST links, but
the last time (before yesterday) that I visited them must have been before
the web-ring links were created.

Speaking of which, anyone know where one can get a hold of Forest's Dune
scenario? I could never find it anywhere.


At 12:04 AM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>Oh great. Up to now I though only the world forgot us. Now I find out
>also the company that produced FST
>forgot it. They even did not remember to tell their people using it
>where to find some MORE persons
>that work with it.
>Three years. Great. It took Eidos/Domark three years to forget us and
>FST completly.
>-------
>
>Jens

Jens B?rner

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Joe Marullo schrieb:

> Actually, I visit Forest Pearson's web page a lot. But there are no links
> to a mailing list or the web-ring there. He has some other FST links, but
> the last time (before yesterday) that I visited them must have been before
> the web-ring links were created.

Unfortunaly I haven't seen Forest for a long time, he did not react.
His site is rather old, not been updated since long.

Larry Brown

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Joe,
To my knowledge Forrest never put his Dune sim up to the public,
and we haven't heard from him in quit awhile. Anyway it's nice to know
that some people at Eidos haven't forgotten FST. So did you have a hand
in Absolute Zero?
Larry

"Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
Diamond Multimedia
Larry Brown
Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
Technical Support
lar...@diamondmm.com
7101 Supra Drive
Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
Technical Support (541)967-2450
BBS (541)967-2444
FaxBack (800)380-0030
http://www.diamondmm.com
Tech support hours: Mon-Fri 5am-7pm PST Sat 8am-4pm PST
Live Technical Support Chat: Tuesday 10AM-12PM PST, Thursday 3PM-5PM PST
Server: chat.talkcity.com Port: 6667 Channel: #diamond


> ----------
> From: Joe Marullo[SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]
> Reply To: FST Mailing List

> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:45 PM
> To: FST Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Great! EIDOS forgot us completly.


>
> Oh, trust me.. we use tools very similar to FST (just next generation
> stuff I guess you could call it). Some of us could never forget the
> program as it is the one thing we see and deal with day after day
> after day
> after..
>

> Actually, I visit Forest Pearson's web page a lot. But there are no
> links
> to a mailing list or the web-ring there. He has some other FST links,
> but
> the last time (before yesterday) that I visited them must have been
> before
> the web-ring links were created.
>

> Speaking of which, anyone know where one can get a hold of Forest's
> Dune
> scenario? I could never find it anywhere.
>
>
> At 12:04 AM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> >Oh great. Up to now I though only the world forgot us. Now I find out
> >also the company that produced FST
> >forgot it. They even did not remember to tell their people using it
> >where to find some MORE persons
> >that work with it.
> >Three years. Great. It took Eidos/Domark three years to forget us and
> >FST completly.
> >-------
> >

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

No Offense, But I seriously think that LA has been rather tight on the
property rights of StarWars...Admittedly, They made it, But let's face it,
if they think a FST game can compete sucessfully with XvT, they're smoking
way too much cigars in their legal offices.
Besides, If Ertl and Lucasarts sent me a cease and desist order to me if I
scratch build an X-Wing Model from the SW vehicle plans (and people do)
instead of passively buying the "offical" X-Wing model (Which isn't that
good anyways), I'll personally jam my X-Wing up the LA legal Counsel's
throat.

Besides, With the exception of buying the SW Technical Journal and using
the data to make my shape, I did not exactly use any Lucasarts work in my
game, so if I get a letter from LA, I'll politely tell them to buzz off.
I mean sheesh, I don't even see Babylon productions get all nutty when
people start raytracing their vehicles...But I see LF send nasty letters
to what basically described to be overzealous fans.

:)kev


On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Larry Brown wrote:

> I thought your name rang a bell. Hey is there ever a chance of us in the
> mailing list to take a look at your "Battle of Hoth" sim? I know Domark
> (now Eidos) couldn't release it because of Lucas Arts copyright for the
> Star Wars Universe. I have heard alot about your sim and have been
> wantting to take a look for years.

> Larry
>
>
>
> "Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
> Diamond Multimedia
> Larry Brown
> Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
> Technical Support
> lar...@diamondmm.com
> 7101 Supra Drive
> Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
> Technical Support (541)967-2450
> BBS (541)967-2444
> FaxBack (800)380-0030
> http://www.diamondmm.com
> Tech support hours: Mon-Fri 5am-7pm PST Sat 8am-4pm PST
> Live Technical Support Chat: Tuesday 10AM-12PM PST, Thursday 3PM-5PM PST
> Server: chat.talkcity.com Port: 6667 Channel: #diamond
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Joe Marullo[SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]
> > Reply To: FST Mailing List

> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 11:46 AM
> > To: FST Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: Wow :)


> >
> > A Star Wars "Battle of Hoth" scenario.
> >
> >

> > At 02:31 PM 2/5/98 EST, you wrote:
> > >In a message dated 98-02-05 14:29:44 EST, you write:
> > >
> > >What did you make?:)
> > >
> > >Tim
> > >
> > >Http://members.aol.com/trhoke/home.htm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Wha

Joe Marullo

unread,
Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Yep. I did all of the in-game shapes for AZ (with a version of FST that
supported limited texture mapping).


At 04:01 PM 2/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Joe,
> To my knowledge Forrest never put his Dune sim up to the public,
>and we haven't heard from him in quit awhile. Anyway it's nice to know
>that some people at Eidos haven't forgotten FST. So did you have a hand
>in Absolute Zero?
> Larry
>

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Heheheh...Maybe with Mr. Olestri's help, I can finally finish that
Command and Conquer: Red Alert sim.
So far completed:
MiG (The original MiG-23/27 and 29 from Red Banner)
Yak (Yeah...But It looks alot like the one Charles Dunne did for Kursk)
Hind (Would you believe a copy of Forest pearson's Mi-24, but cleaned up?)
Powerplant/Advanced Powerplant (eh...Some stuff from BladeRunner FST)
Naval stuff and Tanks (heheheh...Rips from Domark's rather old shapes)
To be done:
Humvee
Mammoth Tank
Harvester
Refinery
And etc...
I might get a cease and desist order from the folks at Westwood, but then,
we also did a BladeRunner FST sim behind their backs, so I guess we can
work on it and see if Westwood finds out.

:)kev

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Larry Brown wrote:

> Joe,
> To my knowledge Forrest never put his Dune sim up to the public,
> and we haven't heard from him in quit awhile. Anyway it's nice to know
> that some people at Eidos haven't forgotten FST. So did you have a hand
> in Absolute Zero?
> Larry
>
>
>

> "Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
> Diamond Multimedia
> Larry Brown
> Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
> Technical Support
> lar...@diamondmm.com
> 7101 Supra Drive
> Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
> Technical Support (541)967-2450
> BBS (541)967-2444
> FaxBack (800)380-0030
> http://www.diamondmm.com
> Tech support hours: Mon-Fri 5am-7pm PST Sat 8am-4pm PST
> Live Technical Support Chat: Tuesday 10AM-12PM PST, Thursday 3PM-5PM PST
> Server: chat.talkcity.com Port: 6667 Channel: #diamond
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Joe Marullo[SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]
> > Reply To: FST Mailing List

> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 3:45 PM
> > To: FST Mailing List

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Wow, Dude! Upload the sim to my little FST lab in:
http://www.mcnett.org/fst/minerva (ask McNett how to do it...He and I are
the only ones who have access there)...
I'm coding StarWars FST (OK, It's not supposed to be released to the SW
crowd...In fact, It's only FST Mail-list's internal people)
After all, the beef with Lucasarts and you is that you're a member of the
design team for another company, not that you did the game...
Besides, if they starts coming after me on the game, they'll have to bark
up the tree of the guy who made an X-Wing for MSFS, the people who made
DXF models of StarWars vehicles and etc. Ad trust me...The negative
publicity they'll get will be so bad for them I don't think they'll do it.

:)kev


On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Joe Marullo wrote:

> Ack!!
>
>
> As for the Hoth game, I can definitely talk about it.. I just can't
> distribute it (according to the nice Lucasfilm lawyer that called me). :(
>
> Which is probably just as well. Back then it had a bunch of neat "wow"
> stuff (like the animated AT-AT, AT-ST, and Tauntauns..) but now it just
> looks dated. :/ In fact every year when technology increases, more and
> more parts of the game fail (the sound was the first to go, now I can't
> even get the thing to load anymore (just crashes)). It uses the very first
> version of FLY.EXE (which is very picky).

Jens B?rner

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Joe Marullo schrieb:

>
> Yep. I did all of the in-game shapes for AZ (with a version of FST that
> supported limited texture mapping).

People here always talk about AZ, which I never saw myself. Im getting
curious,
its one of the few simulation games I never saw (I at least played once
nearly every sim ever on market since the very first I can remember,
TOP GUN on a Schneider CPC 464 and Harrier Jump Jet(not that from
Microprose, its an acient one).

So where can I get it? Does anyone know?

Jens

Mike Gilmartin

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

I would like to respond to this. Eidos did not technically forget you guys. We have been looking at your stuff for awhile, and admired what you are doing. Simis (a separate company from Eidos) is actually the company that uses the FST file system. From what I understand they have been watching you all closely. My team (Confirmed Kill) got really interested in these sights and really started to explore them, because I am looking for artists. I thought who better to do Shape art in FST then the people doing it on there spare time. Therefore I would like to extend an offer. I am looking for a person who can do W.W. II shapes for an up and coming game. I would like someone who lives in the San Francisco bay area, but it might be possible to contract someone to do the work from home.

If you are interested please e-mail me with the word (Work) in the subject portion of the e-mail. I will want to see some shapes so please tell me where I can find some. If you are in the bay area, this could lead to a full time job here at Eidos. (If could also happen if you are willing to relocate). Additionally we will be looking for Beta testers to test this project out on TEN, if you are interested in that please e-mail me with the work testing in the subject. I will not be able to get back to your for about to weeks but I will. Also please just e-mail me and not the entire ring, I am sure they do not want to get all that junk mail. Thanks

Sincerely
Mike Gilmartin

Joe Marullo

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Its an old game now.. some stores (like CompUSA I think) sell it in there
discount bins (under 10$).

At 06:18 PM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Marullo schrieb:
>>
>> Yep. I did all of the in-game shapes for AZ (with a version of FST that
>> supported limited texture mapping).
>
>People here always talk about AZ, which I never saw myself. Im getting
>curious,
>its one of the few simulation games I never saw (I at least played once
>nearly every sim ever on market since the very first I can remember,
>TOP GUN on a Schneider CPC 464 and Harrier Jump Jet(not that from
>Microprose, its an acient one).
>
>So where can I get it? Does anyone know?
>
>Jens
>

Mike Gilmartin

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Eidos never really stopped being interested in FST. Simis the original creators of the tools, developed a new engine that requires FST FSD shapes. We have a new version of the editor (kind of an off shoot) that we are using to develop two of our games. Flying Nightmares and Confirmed Kill. These two projects will most likely be the last to use FST since there are more efficient tools (Studio and MAXX) to make shapes. We currently have a plugin that converts Max shapes to FST, but it has some serious bugs as all development tools do. I would like to release an aircraft editor and a terrain or world editor for Confirmed Kill, but we have to see how well it does on the market before we even explore this option. As far as I know the 98 version of FST is not being done by Simis. I know it is not being done by us. I was not hear at the time but I think the sales of the FSTK, were not all that great, and that is why we have to stop supporting FST. Joe would have the scoop on!
!
that. The software industry is a tricky one, a company always has to look at NEW technologies and gamble that they are going to work out. If they do you have a game that revolutionizes the industry, if you do not you go out of business. Even though FST is great we have to look for the newest and coolest thing and try it. Even though I preferred DOS I am now using 95 (Soon 98).

Mike Gilmartin

William C. Digiacomo

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

> As far as I know the 98 version of FST is not being done by Simis.
> I know it is not being done by us.

Mike,

I'm a little confused here ... have you been to my site yet??? I have a contract with EIDOS to bug fix & enhance FST and have been working on it for the last year. I'm trying to wrap things up right now for a release sometime later this year. The direct link to the 'FST-98' stuff is:

http://www.digiacom.com/newstuff/new-98.htm

... please let me know what you think.

TTFN - DJ

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Company: 'DiGiaCom' Technologies, Inc.
WhoamI: William C. Digiacomo, Prez.
\\\\\\ WhereI: http://www.digiacom.com
[•]—[•] Email: w...@digiacom.com [†]
——ooo0—(_)—0ooo—————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

$10?! My god, Men! I saw it in "The bins" for $3.99 with tons of
"clearance" stickers on it...There are tons there, next to Sierra's Red
Baron, Tons of cheesy Shareware game CDs (All with Doom!) and
Grolier/Comptons 1994/5. Man, even FST 1.0 cost me $15 when I brought it.

I actually observe people verbally bashing AZ for the bad gameplay in
CompUSA's Flagship store in 38th and 5th in Manhattan next to
Lord and Taylor. And I don't mean one guy...It's one of those things in
which a couple of IS Professionals can spend hours talking about (I saw a
similar flaming of MSFS95 in the store)

Well, Judging by the poor performence of the demo <12 fps on Fly 2.0 on a
P90 when the Fly 1.72 was released in late 1995> Simis did not exactly
did a good job on it (And of course, competing with WC3, which is like
"Game of the Year" for that year, those guys really bombed.) I mean, with
the exception of Tombraider, EIDOS did not exactly rang a bell with
buyers as propeitors of quality software (well, Lara Croft is...
Well, Let's say people have fantasies about Lara that is well...
Not kosher, OK!)
Hmmm...I mean, EIDOS made a C&C knockoff (That terrible Aliens from
Jupiter VS Humans Strategy game), A Descent knockoff (With
Virge Support, which is good, but there are tons of games better out there
with S3D support), and a Indycar knockoff. Seriously, not much of
originality with the ideas department. Like I said...FST was a GREAT idea
(Well, if you got CGM, a magazine that basically ad-libs for Lucasarts and
EA to acknowledge you guys for going a superb job...)...It's a pity all
Domark did was look at the sales figures and not at the promise of it.
If Microsoft took the same approach they would've abandoned MSIE after
Version 2 (Of course, they DID ram it down OEM Manufacturer's throats,
but that's a totally different story)...Or maybe if Apple see MS whacked
them with Win 3.1 they probably packed up after System 7.

I mean, Just think...A totally modernized FST with 16 Bit coloring and
TCP/IP capabilities, they would've became the "Quake" of Online Air
Combat.

Oh yeah...I see...In my crystalball..., JSF won't do very well against
Novalogic's F22 Raptor...In fact, I believe F-15 and Falcon 4 will
totally demolish JSF's sales....Yep...Anything not fast enough for running
on a P166 with SVGA Textured mapped graphics is not worth buying.

:)kev

Mike Gilmartin

unread,
Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Let me just retract my comment about doing the 98 version of FST, Eidos (The UK office) is involved.

----------
From: Joe Marullo [SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]

Sent: Friday, February 06, 1998 11:13 AM


To: FST Mailing List
Subject: Re: Great! EIDOS forgot us completly.

Its an old game now.. some stores (like CompUSA I think) sell it in there
discount bins (under 10$).

At 06:18 PM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Marullo schrieb:
>>
>> Yep. I did all of the in-game shapes for AZ (with a version of FST that
>> supported limited texture mapping).
>
>People here always talk about AZ, which I never saw myself. Im getting
>curious,
>its one of the few simulation games I never saw (I at least played once
>nearly every sim ever on market since the very first I can remember,
>TOP GUN on a Schneider CPC 464 and Harrier Jump Jet(not that from
>Microprose, its an acient one).
>
>So where can I get it? Does anyone know?
>
>Jens
>

Mike Gilmartin

unread,
Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Well have you seen JSF? I have seen JSF and Falcon 4 run on the same computer. Falcon was like a slide show. But all the titles you mentioned were done by outside groups. Have you looked at Confirmed Kill or Flying Nightmares II. Both are very cool. FST (AZ) was done by this group, and they are very talented. I think you will be very happy with Flying Nightmares and Confirmed Kill.

Mike GIlmartin

----------
From: Kevin Kwan [SMTP:kk...@acsu.buffalo.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 06, 1998 9:31 AM
To: FST Mailing List
Subject: EIDOS: Really missed out?!

:)kev


Kevin Kwan

unread,
Feb 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/6/98
to

Heheheh...Uncle Mike, Can we please have a copy of the CK/Flying
Nightmares shapes editor? I want to see if Lucasarts would bust me open
for putting StarWars shapes into CK and AZ and completely causing chaos
with the online gaming community with a couple of "screenshots".
Just a joke.

:)kev

On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Mike Gilmartin wrote:

> Eidos never really stopped being interested in FST. Simis the original creators of the tools, developed a new engine that requires FST FSD shapes. We have a new version of the editor (kind of an off shoot) that we are using to develop two of our games. Flying Nightmares and Confirmed Kill. These two projects will most likely be the last to use FST since there are more efficient tools (Studio and MAXX) to make shapes. We currently have a plugin that converts Max shapes to FST, but it has some serious bugs as all development tools do. I would like to release an aircraft editor and a terrain or world editor for Confirmed Kill, but we have to see how well it does on the market before we even explore this option. As far as I know the 98 version of FST is not being done by Simis. I know it is not being done by us. I was not hear at the time but I think the sales of the FSTK, were not all that great, and that is why we have to stop supporting FST. Joe would have the scoop !
!
on!


> that. The software industry is a tricky one, a company always has to look at NEW technologies and gamble that they are going to work out. If they do you have a game that revolutionizes the industry, if you do not you go out of business. Even though FST is great we have to look for the newest and coolest thing and try it. Even though I preferred DOS I am now using 95 (Soon 98).
>
> Mike Gilmartin
>

Daniel Berlin

unread,
Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Joe Marullo wrote:

> Oh, trust me.. we use tools very similar to FST (just next generation
> stuff I guess you could call it). Some of us could never forget the
> program as it is the one thing we see and deal with day after day after day
> after..
>
> Actually, I visit Forest Pearson's web page a lot. But there are no links
> to a mailing list or the web-ring there. He has some other FST links, but
> the last time (before yesterday) that I visited them must have been before
> the web-ring links were created.
>
> Speaking of which, anyone know where one can get a hold of Forest's Dune
> scenario? I could never find it anywhere.
>

I remember Forrest speaking about this three years ago (when his and mine pages
was the only one. Sorry Luca, your page might have been there but we didn't know
about it then). But he told me he had lost it and I think he even mail Domark,
as it was called then, and asked Bryan Waler if he had a copy since he had
sent it as his contribution to the contest. I also remember that he was a little
bit confused that he didn't received any price since he was told that he got
a second place.

GMY
Daniel Berlin
e3be...@etek.chalmers.se


>
> At 12:04 AM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> >Oh great. Up to now I though only the world forgot us. Now I find out
> >also the company that produced FST
> >forgot it. They even did not remember to tell their people using it
> >where to find some MORE persons
> >that work with it.
> >Three years. Great. It took Eidos/Domark three years to forget us and
> >FST completly.
> >-------
> >
> >Jens
>
>

Bryan McNett

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

>Well have you seen JSF? I have seen JSF and Falcon 4 run on the same
computer.

i haven't seen Falcon 4, but i've seen JSF. i'm a graphics programming
specialist, so i may have missed details re: flight dynamics or realism. i
am very sensitive to speed and good looks however.

to me, JSF is an interesting showcase of state-of-the-art LOD topics such as
fractal texture and adaptive meshes. the fractal texture lacks personality -
its repeating patterns forbid memorable features - and the adaptive meshes
are usually too flat to convey much spatial information. but i can't think
of a previous game that had either feature to any capacity. bravo!

i am right now working on a flight sim 3D engine that can render all known
planets and stars with microscopic detail at 30fps on a 3dfx. the
interactive demo should be finished in the next few weeks. we've been
talking with GT Interactive about funding for the past few months. If they
don't like the demo, we may come to Eidos (among others) with a proposal.
can you tell me where to find Eidos' submission guidelines?

fxpilot

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

Yes, I have to say its all thanks to Simis and Eidos (Simis is part of
Eidos) and all the help from them that is making things possible again for
FST.
Regards,
Bob

----
From: f...@bigpanda.com
To: Fxpilot
Date: Friday, February 06, 1998 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: Great! EIDOS forgot us completly.

Let me just retract my comment about doing the 98 version of FST, Eidos
(The UK office) is involved.

----------
From: Joe Marullo [SMTP:jmar...@eidos.com]

Sent: Friday, February 06, 1998 11:13 AM
To: FST Mailing List


Subject: Re: Great! EIDOS forgot us completly.

Its an old game now.. some stores (like CompUSA I think) sell it in there
discount bins (under 10$).

At 06:18 PM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Marullo schrieb:
>>
>> Yep. I did all of the in-game shapes for AZ (with a version of FST
that
>> supported limited texture mapping).
>
>People here always talk about AZ, which I never saw myself. Im getting
>curious,
>its one of the few simulation games I never saw (I at least played once
>nearly every sim ever on market since the very first I can remember,
>TOP GUN on a Schneider CPC 464 and Harrier Jump Jet(not that from
>Microprose, its an acient one).
>
>So where can I get it? Does anyone know?
>
>Jens
>

Jens B?rner

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

Mike Gilmartin schrieb:

>
> Eidos never really stopped being interested in FST. Simis the original creators of the tools, developed a new engine that requires FST FSD shapes. We have a new version of the editor (kind of an off shoot) that we are using to develop two of our games. Flying Nightmares and Confirmed Kill. These two projects will most likely be the last to use FST since there are more efficient tools (Studio and MAXX) to make shapes. We currently have a plugin that converts Max shapes to FST, but it has some serious bugs as all development tools do. I would like to release an aircraft editor and a terrain or world editor for Confirmed Kill, but we have to see how well it does on the market before we even explore this option. As far as I know the 98 version of FST is not being done by Simis. I know it is not being done by us. I was not hear at the time but I think the sales of the FSTK, were not all that great, and that is why we have to stop supporting FST. Joe would have the scoop !
!
!
on!
> that. The software industry is a tricky one, a company always has to look at NEW technologies and gamble that they are going to work out. If they do you have a game that revolutionizes the industry, if you do not you go out of business. Even though FST is great we have to look for the newest and coolest thing and try it. Even though I preferred DOS I am now using 95 (Soon 98).

Yes, true, but it seems as you tend to forget that FST as it has been
and is now could have been, and even more as it will be, a very
sucessful, not only for the customers, but also commercially
sucessfully. The problem is that the first version of FST had hardly
advertisment for, and the few things that were done to promote it were
really a disaster. It had many good critics in computer game magazibes,
but the support was dropped soon and instead of a constant development
which certainly would have made it the most popular game /construction
kit ever, the development was frozen until the arrival of V1.43 (WWII
update), which came with two sims which even did not earn the name. So
the critics for it were basically only over the two games. Moreover the
improvements really were not that big, and then it was even frozen until
the arrival of the buggy beta V1.52fs! And this in a time when games had
textures, shaded, with stereo sound! it had not even a multichannel
sound that worked correctly, only on IRQ 7 sb16 sound boards u had
sound! What currently happens in the game industry , and even more in
the simulations industry is a contest between the engines, with an eye
on 3DXF to get even greater grafix. The problem is only very few people
have 3DXF and also a P233 which is needed to run those games at a fluid
frame rate. And then we only see good grafix, hear good sound: but, the
gameplay? The fun? The REALISM???? JSF is a good example: Good grafix,
perfect sound, ugly interface, the gameplay is boring, and the
realism... what realism???? Even when u are not such a hardcore-realism
fan is i am( and others in the list), who still love A-10 cuba and F-18,
you have to realize the sales for such sims are high over a short time
and then go down to zero. You can still buy SWOTL.
What happened to iF-22? Disapeared. Only one example. Those who want
such games without big surprises- they copy them! I do not support
software piracy in any kind, but I watch the phenomena: this is an
additionaly reason for bad sales! People want a steady development of
ONE game, any not to pay for the same game with a new engine! So FST can
either provide very cheap games for those who simply want to play, with
plugin-missions and planes, or a complete way to make your own ones,
with you being the one who decides who much realism u want.
A tool like FST could, with enough support and ads, become the
most-saled( I emphasize "saled", not only copied!) game or entertainment
software ever released.


greetings,
Jens Boerner
CoDes

José Sanchez

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

I completely agree with Jens'opinion. For example, in my school, we opened a
Flight Simulation Club with the children and we bought FST (then sailed here
in France by UbiSoft). We also bought also MS-FS 95. Well the favorite of
the children is not FS-95 but FST! They enjoy to make their own landscapes,
aircrafts... It is not very important for them if there are no textures, not
stereo sound... I have many children who want to BUY (not to copy) FST...
They ask to me where to find it... It is impossible here in France now to
buy FST. What can I do? I hate piracy but in this circunstancies how can do
the boys and girls of my school who want to work on FST at home?
I think also that the unsuccess of FST was also due to the difficulty for
the developpers to take contact ones with the others (before Internet and
this mail group...). The very confidential FST club made by Domark in
England could not compete with the many more clubs of the MS-FS
supporters...

Regards
Jose Sanchez
jose_s...@hol.fr
http://www.mygale.org/~jsanchez/

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Jens B?rner <lo...@odn.de>
À : FST Mailing List <f...@bigpanda.com>
Date : samedi 7 février 1998 13:51
Objet : Re: Wow :)

TRH...@aol.com

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

In a message dated 98-02-07 10:03:24 EST, you write:

<<
I completely agree with Jens'opinion. For example, in my school, we opened a
Flight Simulation Club with the children and we bought FST (then sailed here
in France by UbiSoft). We also bought also MS-FS 95. Well the favorite of
the children is not FS-95 but FST! They enjoy to make their own landscapes,
aircrafts... It is not very important for them if there are no textures, not
stereo sound... I have many children who want to BUY (not to copy) FST...
They ask to me where to find it... It is impossible here in France now to
buy FST. What can I do? I hate piracy but in this circunstancies how can do
the boys and girls of my school who want to work on FST at home?
I think also that the unsuccess of FST was also due to the difficulty for
the developpers to take contact ones with the others (before Internet and
this mail group...). The very confidential FST club made by Domark in
England could not compete with the many more clubs of the MS-FS
supporters...

Regards
Jose Sanchez
jose_s...@hol.fr
http://www.mygale.org/~jsanchez/ >>

Can you buy copy's from chips and bit's? It's like $15 something from there,
and they've got shipping to all over the world.
here's a link if you want to try it out: Http://www.cdmag.com/cgi-bin/online-
stores/cbi_store/list.cbi_home


I think this will get you too the page where it tells you the FST price, and
then it has the order button next to it, if it takes you to the main page just
search for Flight Sim Toolkit ( :) ).

Tim

Peter Wuesten

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to

At 13:43 07.02.98 +0100, Jens wrote:
>Only one example. Those who want
>such games without big surprises- they copy them! I do not support
>software piracy in any kind, but I watch the phenomena: this is an
>additionaly reason for bad sales! People want a steady development of
>ONE game, any not to pay for the same game with a new engine!

Perfectly true. If don't have that much money you certainly don't want a
bad surprise with a sim/game you paid about 60$ for. So you can either
1. take a look at an (often buggy) demo or
2. copy (i.e. borrow for CDs) the game from a friend
to see if it's worth the money. Once you have on your computer, temptation
to leave it there instead of spending mucho mola is overwhelming.

>A tool like FST could, with enough support and ads, become the
>most-saled( I emphasize "saled", not only copied!) game or entertainment
>software ever released.
>

Don't forget the documentation. I love to have a good handbook, and as for
FST a new user is lost without docs. Even the old FST handbook (the German
translation was extraordinarily crappy) helped me a lot.
The potential FST can draw upon is
a.) you have user-support (almost as good as for free GNU software)
b.) users will most probably buy (and not copy) it, because they need the
docu, too
c.) FST is a flight-simmer's dream: If you don't like the 1024th F22 sim,
make your own Fiat G91 or whatever sim

I agree to Jens that good marketing should boost FST sales. I never saw any
ad in computer magazines; I actually never knew FST was there before I got
it from the cheapo-bin.

Peter

Peter Wuesten
uzs...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de
- unser Mann in Bonn -

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/7/98
to
> What happened to iF-22? Disapeared. Only one example. Those who want

> such games without big surprises- they copy them! I do not support
> software piracy in any kind, but I watch the phenomena: this is an
> additionaly reason for bad sales! People want a steady development of
> ONE game, any not to pay for the same game with a new engine! So FST can
> either provide very cheap games for those who simply want to play, with
> plugin-missions and planes, or a complete way to make your own ones,
> with you being the one who decides who much realism u want.
> A tool like FST could, with enough support and ads, become the
> most-saled( I emphasize "saled", not only copied!) game or entertainment
> software ever released.

Absolutely truism here...Quake, which is another game engine in which
ANYTHING can be done with imagination, is a Superhit with the PC crowds.
Not because it was fun on Single Player, Not because it was awesome to get
a couple of guys together, deathmatch and kill each other, but because
people came up with so many developments of Quake that makes it look like
a new game everytime a patch came out. I mean, look at AirQuake,
QuakeRally, TeamFortress, Quake: Tomorrow Never Dies, and other cool
add-ons. It's not the initial arts that makes the game cool...It's the
extension of the game engine that makes people come back. I mean, some
people buy games to see the Million dollar rendered or filmed sequences
that separate between the slow, boring and frustrating gameplay (Look at
Myst...Boring, but looks good. Or Wing Commander 3 to 4. Most games of
this catergory are simple repetitive affairs, but since DoD and Razor1911
wouldn't "ISO Rip" these games for you and show you Mark Hamill in a
Cockpit of a SpaceFighter, or a digitized version of Harrison Ford in
Westwood's BladeRunner, you're forced to buy it...and suffer the bad
gameplay)
Other people buys games for the gameplay...games like TIE Fighter or Need
for Speed 2. Great gameplay, but let's face it. There are only several
times in which you can repeat the Stunning victory of Darth Vader over the
Rebel Alliance in Tour 7 Mission 5 of TIE, Or when you and your Jaguar
XJ220 finally pass that Ferrari F50 in that twisty Tibetian level of NFS2
before you're bored out of your minds and do something else (Go to a
boring Baseball game, heheheh).
I mean, I have tons of games that I play only once and either delete or
put away in the dusty cellar, because you just don't wanna play it anymore
out of repetitive boredom.

It seemed that the games that I do keep Fulltime in my Hard-Drive is the
ones that I can modify, and discover new aspects of it. Games like Red
Alert (Customized Units from the Internet, New Maps, new missions, etc)
Quake (try QuakeWorld, Genius), or FST (FSTWorld -> Mcnett.org/fst)
will never be deleted off because they're so much fun to fool around with,
and their gameplay is not too bad (Well, FST stands backburner to RA and
Quake, since the gameplay is never too good, even when the design is well
executed) Those are the games that people actually buy, contribute and
have a heavy following of. I mean, if FST actually continued FST
development beyond WW2, they might actually gave Microsoft such a heavy
hammering that FS5 will NEVER grew to this resource-sucking monster of
today. Just think...SST (SciFi-Simulation-Toolkit), FST Online, FST 2000
It would've made EIDOS beyond the One-Hit Wonder that it is today (And
remember, Tombraider is cool because kids spent hours imagining Lara Croft
naked...)

(well, OK...FS5 does allow you to add new planes and maps, but
even if your plane is a sleek MiG-31, you'll still have to fly it like a
"Civ-Air" and your only chance of destroying something is diving the plane
toward the statue of Liberty, which is excessively stupid. The
people who buys FS5/6/7 are CivAir guys, like Weekend Barn Stormers who
can't afford the gas to fly, Guys who have a flying License but can't
afford to rent a plane for the weekend, or your typical Airline pilot who
likes to "reminensce" about flying 747s out of Runway 13/31 of HongKong's
KaiTek Airport, before he was re-assigned the route to flying Airbus A321s
out of Duluth, Iowa at 3 in the morning and wants to spent thousands on a
"real" flight controls for his PC. Most Military Pilot dreamers (Kevin
"Boomer" kwan Flying Su-33Bs off "Admiral Kunnetsov" and showing the USN
Pukes in their F/A-18 "Bugs" what a can of whoop-ass feels like from a
pair of AA-12 Archers at their "6") would not even touch it with a 9 Foot
Yardstick.)

Well, Like I said. I don't buy games from a Software store because
a) With the exception of the "Super-duper" graphics, the games feels just
like the games of old (F-22 flys like USNF, Flanker feels like Falcon 3,
and JSF feels like playing F-22 for Sega Genesis VIA Emulators on a
P-66...Slow and uninspiring)
b) They are expensive ($60 for a re-hash of USNF?! Why don't I just spent
a couple of hours with Gripen instead? It's free and I can turn the
Gripen into a Flying Toaster or a cockaroach just for fun)
c) They gets tiringly repetitive after a short while
I usually got to my favorite warez "distros", grab a copy of the game that
has been patched and "ripped" with care, try it out before I buy.
It's not privacy if you delete it within 24 hours, and guess what? Most
games that I grabbed don't even last 30 minutes! Since the warez folks
actually knocked the fancy rendered videos and goodies out, you really see
the game as it is. I mean, You guys at EIDOS should try out some of the
games from the distro guys and give yourself an objective view of how the
games of today sucked without the fancy schmancy packaging and the
rendered videos. I mean, You're at least T3 from your development
offices, right?
And trust me...Demos of games don't mean squat. One level is never enough
to see how the game works (Except Quake, Duke3D and TV, which is shareware
and have virtually half the game there)
And the paranoia against the "rippers" and warez dealers out there should
be really stopped. Trust me...If your game actually won the heart of the
people who spent hours downloading a warez copy of, I think you'll pock
that sale. (Quake? Bought it after 2 hours from D/ling. Red Alert? The
next day. Flanker? Almost spontanoeus.)

:)kev

Kevin Kwan

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

> >Only one example. Those who want
> >such games without big surprises- they copy them! I do not support
> >software piracy in any kind, but I watch the phenomena: this is an
> >additionaly reason for bad sales! People want a steady development of
> >ONE game, any not to pay for the same game with a new engine!

Well, I don't exactly support software provacy, but I support the "boys"
in the R&D department of gaming companies who sneaked the games out of the
labs and let the buyers try the games out before you buy it.

I mean, When you buy a car, you want to AT LEAST try the games out before
you buy. You don't simply rub the 4 tires on your ass or look at the
ads to imagine how it'll run. (Remember...An opened game cannot be
returned for money in ANY store.)

(C'Mon...How many stores actually let you try a game out before you buy
it? And the reviews on the magazine? They don't even review anything
negative in most of them! It's like reading an ad...Besides,
"Small-Change" games publishers usually Don't get reviews)

In fact, On many of the warez releases, the "rippers" encourage you to buy
it if you like it...And guess what...You're NOT supposed to keep them if
you like it. You're supposed to BUY it.

> Perfectly true. If don't have that much money you certainly don't want a
> bad surprise with a sim/game you paid about 60$ for. So you can either
> 1. take a look at an (often buggy) demo or
> 2. copy (i.e. borrow for CDs) the game from a friend
> to see if it's worth the money. Once you have on your computer, temptation
> to leave it there instead of spending mucho mola is overwhelming.
>

> >A tool like FST could, with enough support and ads, become the
> >most-saled( I emphasize "saled", not only copied!) game or entertainment
> >software ever released.
> >

> Don't forget the documentation. I love to have a good handbook, and as for
> FST a new user is lost without docs. Even the old FST handbook (the German
> translation was extraordinarily crappy) helped me a lot.
> The potential FST can draw upon is
> a.) you have user-support (almost as good as for free GNU software)
> b.) users will most probably buy (and not copy) it, because they need the
> docu, too
> c.) FST is a flight-simmer's dream: If you don't like the 1024th F22 sim,
> make your own Fiat G91 or whatever sim

Yeah...For once, I want to see a game with Crappy planes that you can
actually fly. B-36 Peacemaker, B-1B Lancer, MiG-19 Farmer, XF-85 Goblin,
Brewster Buffalo, SBD Duntless, De Havilland Demon, F-5E Tiger II, games
like that. Who cares about High tech planes if EVERY games is like that.
I mean, the reason FOLKS buy SWOTL is because they cover planes that
NOBODY has heard of.

> I agree to Jens that good marketing should boost FST sales. I never saw any
> ad in computer magazines; I actually never knew FST was there before I got
> it from the cheapo-bin.

I haven't even heard a peep out of FST until I spot it in the discount bin
in Staple's NYC's Chinatown store.

fpea...@yknet.yk.ca

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

At 11:30 AM 2/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Yesterday was the first time any of us(that I'm aware of here at the U.S.
>office anyway) had seen the web ring or the mailing list. It was
>definitely great to see though.
>
>Yes, I work at Eidos. Started working here around three years ago (thanks
>to Flight Sim Tookit in fact.. I had won a FST scenario design contest
>Computer Gaming World and Eidos(Domark at the time) were sponsoring, and
>then took them up on a job offer).

Hi joe, glad to hear you exist - anyway, just a quick not of contact, I too
entered that contest, and when hearing nothing other than your entry,
contacted brian walker regarding the results. He informed me that my entry,
a sim based on Dune, had in fact won second place - although this was the
only info I ever received. bummer. anyway, I have long since lost that sim,
wondered if you have seen it around at all? Thanks, good to hear from you,
and good luck!

-Forest Pearson, fpea...@yknet.yk.ca

Gartner Lee Limited
Whitehorse, Yukon

Prowl...@aol.com

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

In a message dated 98-02-07 17:51:09 EST, you write:

<< (Kevin
"Boomer" kwan Flying Su-33Bs off "Admiral Kunnetsov" and showing the USN
Pukes in their F/A-18 "Bugs" what a can of whoop-ass feels like from a
pair of AA-12 Archers at their "6") would not even touch it with a 9 Foot
Yardstick.) >>

Sorry Kev, but the "USN pukes" would have your poor little Su-33B's blasted
into shark fodder before they could even figure out how to launch themselves
off that poor excuse for an circraft carrier:)

Todd "ASTRO" Hohlenkamp
Former "USN puke"

Jens B?rner

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Prowl...@aol.com schrieb:

>
> In a message dated 98-02-07 17:51:09 EST, you write:
>
> << (Kevin
> "Boomer" kwan Flying Su-33Bs off "Admiral Kunnetsov" and showing the USN
> Pukes in their F/A-18 "Bugs" what a can of whoop-ass feels like from a
> pair of AA-12 Archers at their "6") would not even touch it with a 9 Foot
> Yardstick.) >>
>
> Sorry Kev, but the "USN pukes" would have your poor little Su-33B's blasted
> into shark fodder before they could even figure out how to launch themselves
> off that poor excuse for an circraft carrier:)
>
> Todd "ASTRO" Hohlenkamp
> Former "USN puke"

Have you any idea how much performance advantages a Su-33 has over F/A
18????

Jens "Lord" Boerner
Former Luftwaffe guy

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Kevin Kwan schrieb:

> Yeah...For once, I want to see a game with Crappy planes that you can
> actually fly. B-36 Peacemaker, B-1B Lancer, MiG-19 Farmer, XF-85 Goblin,
> Brewster Buffalo, SBD Duntless, De Havilland Demon, F-5E Tiger II, games
> like that. Who cares about High tech planes if EVERY games is like that.
> I mean, the reason FOLKS buy SWOTL is because they cover planes that
> NOBODY has heard of.

In Thrust II you will be able to fly the F-5E and many more other
unushal jets.
In Stahlschwalben III (Korea) u will be able to fly the MiG-19.
And in Stahlschwalben II (Pacific) u will be able to fly such as
Dauntless and Buffalo.

Jens

Jens B?rner

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Kev wrote:
> And the paranoia against the "rippers" and warez dealers out there should
> be really stopped. Trust me...If your game actually won the heart of the
> people who spent hours downloading a warez copy of, I think you'll pock
> that sale. (Quake? Bought it after 2 hours from D/ling. Red Alert? The
> next day. Flanker? Almost spontanoeus.)

I fully agree with Kev and would even extend that:
For example, take flight unlimited:
-It was 120DM here when it was released. Thats about 70$ at the moment.
-It had game magazine reviews raging from about 98% to 89% of the
maximum possible points.
-Many bought it, many copied it.
-two months later is was at 50DM (28$)
-again one month later it was at 30DM (17$),then I bought it (I always
wait until a game gets cheap)
-now u get it either in a package with two other sims together for 15DM
(9$), or with a game magazine.

-flight unlimited II is out, which will again cost 120DM (70$).....

What does this tell us? Even games with good reviews will disappear soon
if no further support is done.
Imagine what would have happened if FU II would have been an update,
sold for 30$ ?
With plug-ins for new planes in between? It would certainly stayed at
stable 50$ (as eg. MSFS 6.0 is).
U can update OS, grafic progs, sound progs, etc. Why not also games?????
If anybody thinks he can make more money by releasing every new option
as a new game he is wrong.

I will not buy FU II. I have FU I, and will not spend money for FU II as
a new prog though its in fact only an update.
---

Jens

Jens B?rner

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Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

fpea...@yknet.yk.ca schrieb:

> Hi joe, glad to hear you exist - anyway, just a quick not of contact, I too
> entered that contest, and when hearing nothing other than your entry,
> contacted brian walker regarding the results. He informed me that my entry,
> a sim based on Dune, had in fact won second place - although this was the
> only info I ever received. bummer. anyway, I have long since lost that sim,
> wondered if you have seen it around at all? Thanks, good to hear from you,
> and good luck!

Besides, does anyone of you know anything of that mysterious
"FST-Users-Group" that was
mentioned on the regestration form of FST?

Ron Walker

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Hi Jens

Yes, I was one of the few people to be a fully paid up member of the FST
User Group. It use to cost £10 a year and you recieved a quarterly
newsletter and disk with FST stuff and sims on it. It only lasted a couple
of years as far as I know, but here in the UK it was great for me because
it put me in touch with fellow users I would not have met otherwise. Viper
softwares Ray Purvis was a key contributor, and he was very knowledgable. I
dont know if any of them are on the mailing list - if they are - hello!.
As far as I know, Domark enlisted a willing volunteer to help who organised
everything, but was then let down by Domark who didn't really want to offer
him much help or support, and hence, things eventually folded. The main
problem was, the FST User Group, gave Domark a full and ongoing bug list
and problems update, like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has
anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move at
mega speeds at a tangent! Domark just didn't want to know .

Hope this helps
RON

TRH...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

In a message dated 98-02-08 10:20:54 EST, you write:

<< As far as I know, Domark enlisted a willing volunteer to help who organised
everything, but was then let down by Domark who didn't really want to offer
him much help or support, and hence, things eventually folded. The main
problem was, the FST User Group, gave Domark a full and ongoing bug list
and problems update, like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has
anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move at
mega speeds at a tangent! Domark just didn't want to know . >>


I noticed a few of my prop planes flying backwords shooting at me. Not quite
the way with the Jets but almost like it. Drove me crazy:)

Tim

Charles Dunne

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Hi All,
I am with Jens and Kev on this one. All but a few game companies do
level editors for games at the time of their release. The few that do often
build up a bigger following faster. Good examples are WarcraftII, C&C Red Alert
and the Descent series. I will never give up on these games as they have their
own world on the net. You can find new missions multiplayer lists as well as
lots of hacked goodies. An example of what not to do is Bullfrog's Dungeon
Keeper. This game was on the way to being one the hotest concepts in recent
memory then the developers were forced to do things half assed. What is worse
the have no included editor for creatures, heros or the dungeon itself. They
are happy to let it die with a wimper then blame poor sales. How many other
titles does ID have beside Doom and the Quake series? I can't think of another
can you? Now they are talking to Hollywood about a Doom movie, software
developers at the grand opening of their movie. Go figure. Quality NOT
Quantity counts. It is just that simple.

Charles

Jens B?rner wrote:

> Kev wrote:
> > And the paranoia against the "rippers" and warez dealers out there should
> > be really stopped. Trust me...If your game actually won the heart of the
> > people who spent hours downloading a warez copy of, I think you'll pock
> > that sale. (Quake? Bought it after 2 hours from D/ling. Red Alert? The
> > next day. Flanker? Almost spontanoeus.)
>

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Ron Walker schrieb:

Viper
> softwares Ray Purvis was a key contributor, and he was very knowledgable.

Yes, I know him and his sim.
You can find him (in case u did not know) at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/RPURVIS/


> The main
> problem was, the FST User Group, gave Domark a full and ongoing bug list
> and problems update, like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has
> anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
> would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move at
> mega speeds at a tangent!

Yes, I know this, but it is not a problem but the first signs of a
planned feature, VSTOL I mean.
I examined the models this happened with and I discovered nearly 100% of
them had a lifting body
with very low stall angles and a extremly low stall speed. I soon
stopped them from doing that
(looked very funny if u aks me) by modelling the lift more
realistically.
Since then I have never encountered that again; though Im not sure that
this was defenetly the reason.

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

TRH...@aol.com schrieb:

> I noticed a few of my prop planes flying backwords shooting at me. Not quite
> the way with the Jets but almost like it. Drove me crazy:)

I experimentated with the flight models a lot in the past; most people
seem to
forget this main point a bit. I saw many strange events;
eg. a Ju-88 really falling out of the sky after it was shot in mid of a
high-angle stall,
or the fab jets flying backwards. I also made a model that gave the
player(!) the ability to fly backwards;
it was quiet stable for a long time. Also negative wing angles or
V-angles gave strange results;
eg. planes with clear VSTOL abilities, jets behaving like rockets,
models with a "lifting body" that
used the ground up-winds to float over the ground at low alt with engine
off.
When I tried to model the Su-27 with its "Cobra" I also got some funny
results until I was satisfied with the result.
The problem is that the model editor displays wrong values and is not
very relyable.
But when u got a fell for it u can work with it.

Bryan McNett

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

>U can update OS, grafic progs, sound progs, etc. Why not also games?????
>If anybody thinks he can make more money by releasing every new option
>as a new game he is wrong.

there is a huge market for updates in the form of "mission packs". you can
walk into any game store and buy armloads of new scenarios for Warcraft 2,
Command & Conquer, Duke Nukem, Quake.. not to mention MSFS. These things
often cost much less than a new game.

Prowl...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

In a message dated 98-02-08 06:42:45 EST, you write:

<< (Kevin
> "Boomer" kwan Flying Su-33Bs off "Admiral Kunnetsov" and showing the USN
> Pukes in their F/A-18 "Bugs" what a can of whoop-ass feels like from a
> pair of AA-12 Archers at their "6") would not even touch it with a 9 Foot
> Yardstick.) >>
>
> Sorry Kev, but the "USN pukes" would have your poor little Su-33B's blasted
> into shark fodder before they could even figure out how to launch
themselves
> off that poor excuse for an circraft carrier:)
>
> Todd "ASTRO" Hohlenkamp
> Former "USN puke"

Have you any idea how much performance advantages a Su-33 has over F/A
18????

Jens "Lord" Boerner
Former Luftwaffe guy >>

Jens, you take me far to seriously. I do not dispute the performance
advantages of the Su-33. I'm merely making a good natured jibe at Kev's
statement. I had to take up the challenge. After all it is a matter of
pride. And in the end superior performance can be overcome by skill and
experience:)

Todd

Mark Meskin

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

About six months back I developed a neat way of getting out the path of an
onslaught of enemies, I would turn the engines off in a steep climb, lower
the gear, deploy the airbrakes, and pull staright back. Obviously the
craft would come to a halt real quick, and then it would "fall" backwards
and whip out away from the enemy formation in a flat spin(something very
unusual in FST). I'd turn the engines back on, and target them as they
tried to run. Well, a few times I noticed the enemy planes rising
vertically(like VTOL)and they'd keep hammering me from the side. When I
begin to fall, they'd fly backwards and follow me down for a while. It
doesn't happen often, but when it does, you usually get clobberred, mostly
because you stop and stare in disbelief!

Mark
plastic...@newrock.com

----------
> From: TRH...@aol.com
> To: f...@bigpanda.com
> Subject: Re: Wow :)
> Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 9:29 AM


>
> In a message dated 98-02-08 10:20:54 EST, you write:
>
> << As far as I know, Domark enlisted a willing volunteer to help who
organised
> everything, but was then let down by Domark who didn't really want to
offer

> him much help or support, and hence, things eventually folded. The main


> problem was, the FST User Group, gave Domark a full and ongoing bug list
> and problems update, like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has
> anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
> would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move
at

> mega speeds at a tangent! Domark just didn't want to know . >>
>
>

> I noticed a few of my prop planes flying backwords shooting at me. Not
quite
> the way with the Jets but almost like it. Drove me crazy:)
>

> Tim

Richard Czerwonka

unread,
Feb 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/8/98
to

Jens

If it is possible, could you upload or insert a couple WW2 fmds? I'd really
like to see what you have come up with. Also what version are you using
them with? This is a big issue since I really dislike the way fmds are
modelled after the ww2 fly exe. Getting the nose up in these later
fly.exe's for seems to be a nightmare.....or it could just be my
joystick.cfg.....

Rich
....................................................................
Richard Czerwonka
rec...@ilstu.edu
http://www.orat.ilstu.edu/students/reczerw
....................................................................

Peter Wuesten

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

At 13:25 08.02.98 -0500, you wrote:
>>U can update OS, grafic progs, sound progs, etc. Why not also games?????
>>If anybody thinks he can make more money by releasing every new option
>>as a new game he is wrong.
>
>there is a huge market for updates in the form of "mission packs". you can
>walk into any game store and buy armloads of new scenarios for Warcraft 2,
>Command & Conquer, Duke Nukem, Quake.. not to mention MSFS. These things
>often cost much less than a new game.
>
Sure, but look at the Janes' Fighter Collection series (USNF,ATF and the
like):

First they release a new game (based on USNF's engine). Then they release a
mission CD going at half the price of the original game.
The next step is releasing the 'Gold' version of the game (which is
game+mission CD).
Finally, everything is bundled in a cheapo-pack.

There were several things that kept me from buying USNF '97 (though I was
longing to fly the F8 and F4):
1. It looked like a ripp-off
2. Newsgroup postings said it actually was a ripp-off
3. they also said it would rather run as a slideshow if you don't call a
bleeding-edge
technology computer your own
4. You'd need several different toolkits to edit the sims to your liking:
The USNF Toolkit won't edit ATF-files, the ATF TK won't edit ATF GOLD
files, and most
probably none of the above edit USNF 97 files.

Therefore I let my cheapo-copy of USNF rest in peace and wait for the
upcoming WW2 sims. Let's hope that these are what we want them to be. Maybe
FST98 will be the mother of all sims.

Peter

Peter Wuesten
uzs...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de
- unser Mann in Bonn -

Peter Wuesten

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

At 14:36 08.02.98 -0600, you wrote:
>About six months back I developed a neat way of getting out the path of an
>onslaught of enemies, I would turn the engines off in a steep climb, lower
>the gear, deploy the airbrakes, and pull staright back. Obviously the
>craft would come to a halt real quick, and then it would "fall" backwards
>and whip out away from the enemy formation in a flat spin(something very
>unusual in FST). I'd turn the engines back on, and target them as they
>tried to run. Well, a few times I noticed the enemy planes rising
>vertically(like VTOL)and they'd keep hammering me from the side. When I
>begin to fall, they'd fly backwards and follow me down for a while. It
>doesn't happen often, but when it does, you usually get clobberred, mostly
>because you stop and stare in disbelief!
>
>Mark

Now get this:
I made a Fieseler Storch flight-model for the player aircraft that will let
you cruise at 30 knots. I had some aircraft with a relatively high
stallspeed chasing me, and, guess what:
At 30 kts it stuck at my back, without stalling or whatever.
Strange, isn't it?

Mark Meskin

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Hi Peter,

I can't say its weird because Ive seen it too much :-)

Jens thinks its because of high lift flight models. If thats true, then it
means the computer is *enhancing* the capabilities of the flight models for
enemy planes much beyond what those same flight models will perform for the
player. Which is fucking annoying.

DJ,

What's your take on this?

-Mark
plastic...@newrock.com

----------
> From: Peter Wuesten <uzs...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
> To: FST Mailing List <f...@bigpanda.com>
> Subject: Re: Wow :)
> Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 6:35 PM


>
> At 14:36 08.02.98 -0600, you wrote:
> >About six months back I developed a neat way of getting out the path of
an

> >doesn't happen often, but when it does, you usually get clobberred,

Mark Meskin

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Peter writes>


>
> Therefore I let my cheapo-copy of USNF rest in peace and wait for the
> upcoming WW2 sims. Let's hope that these are what we want them to be.
Maybe
> FST98 will be the mother of all sims.
>
> Peter

Its all about control folks! We want control to customize our games!

DJ's true test will not be how many bugs he fixes, but how many new options
he gives us control over.

-Mark
plastic...@newrock.com

fpea...@yknet.yk.ca

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

At 12:56 AM 2/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Marullo schrieb:
>
>> Actually, I visit Forest Pearson's web page a lot. But there are no links
>> to a mailing list or the web-ring there. He has some other FST links, but
>> the last time (before yesterday) that I visited them must have been before
>> the web-ring links were created.
>
>Unfortunaly I haven't seen Forest for a long time, he did not react.
>His site is rather old, not been updated since long.
>

I am still here, although I only read about 1 in 20 FST emails - you guys
have been very vocal lately and I am sort of overwhelmed by email....but it
sounds like you guys are up to great things. I am somewhat envious of you
guys since there is still so much I would like to do with FST, but now I
have big problems...time! I don't get to even play any games anymore. I
work a lot with as an engineer with an environmental consulting firm up here
in the Yukon (BTW jens, this town in crawling with Fulda people this
weekend) - started working on a pilot's licence (flyin 172's) but stopped
when I bought a house last spring (kind of cut into the disposable income)
do a lot of RW flying for work - some pretty fun stuff in and around mine
sites in the mountains up here. Hmmm, what else, oh been falling in love
lately which takes up just about any free time - actually she is down in
Vancouver this week for a conference, hence I have time to clean up this
email list.

Well, as you guesses I have pretty much abandoned my FST site - I will
shortly put a disclaimer as such on the page. Also, I am going to sign off
the list (as soon as I can f#@$@# figure out how!) anyway, keep up the good
work boys, and don't hesitate to drop me emails personally - I'll check in
once an a while - take care, and keep FST'n

-Forest Pearson, fpea...@yknet.yk.ca

Gartner Lee Limited
Whitehorse, Yukon

------------------------------------

Bryan McNett

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Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

>DJ's true test will not be how many bugs he fixes, but how many new options
>he gives us control over.


i hope that you will have some suggestions for the game i am currently
developing. at the moment, i have only these ideas concerning user options:

only a tiny core of time-sensitive code is written in C++/C/ASM. everything
else is Java with freely redistributable source.

Mark Meskin

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Oh yes Bryan,

I'll have a list a mile long for you, but not tonite, I'm going to bed
right now =)

Mark
plastic...@newrock.com

----------
> From: Bryan McNett <br...@mcnett.org>


> To: FST Mailing List <f...@bigpanda.com>

> Subject: Re: FST: The failed premise
> Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 9:04 PM

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Bryan McNett schrieb:

> there is a huge market for updates in the form of "mission packs". you can
> walk into any game store and buy armloads of new scenarios for Warcraft 2,
> Command & Conquer, Duke Nukem, Quake.. not to mention MSFS. These things
> often cost much less than a new game.

Yes, this is excatly what I mean: plug-ins, extra missions, add-ons,
updates...
But most flight sims lack these, unlike eg. Red Alert with its Mission
Builder.
Such as a Tactom Pack for EF2000 is simply not enough.
Thats why FST has so much potential.

Jens

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Mark Meskin schrieb:

>
> About six months back I developed a neat way of getting out the path of an
> onslaught of enemies, I would turn the engines off in a steep climb, lower
> the gear, deploy the airbrakes, and pull staright back. Obviously the
> craft would come to a halt real quick, and then it would "fall" backwards
> and whip out away from the enemy formation in a flat spin(something very
> unusual in FST). I'd turn the engines back on, and target them as they
> tried to run. Well, a few times I noticed the enemy planes rising
> vertically(like VTOL)and they'd keep hammering me from the side. When I
> begin to fall, they'd fly backwards and follow me down for a while. It
> doesn't happen often, but when it does, you usually get clobberred, mostly
> because you stop and stare in disbelief!

Ah,yes, The VSTOL modelling... the AI knows hot to use it,
but the player...if there would only be a VSTOL cability in FST now...
I would *love* to make a "Falkland" sim, already have the shapes and
such....

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Richard Czerwonka schrieb:

>
> Jens
>
> If it is possible, could you upload or insert a couple WW2 fmds? I'd really
> like to see what you have come up with. Also what version are you using
> them with? This is a big issue since I really dislike the way fmds are
> modelled after the ww2 fly exe. Getting the nose up in these later
> fly.exe's for seems to be a nightmare.....or it could just be my
> joystick.cfg.....

Hm, yes. I will see what I can do. I first want to test them on some
more configs, since I have
problems with the params file and how it affects the modelling.
I only use V1.52fs now. Since V1.43 the fly has many model improvements.
Eg. low alt lift etc.

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Prowl...@aol.com schrieb:

> Jens, you take me far to seriously. I do not dispute the performance
> advantages of the Su-33. I'm merely making a good natured jibe at Kev's
> statement. I had to take up the challenge. After all it is a matter of
> pride. And in the end superior performance can be overcome by skill and
> experience:)

Hehe, I know. I also did not mean it too serious. I like both F-18 and
Su-33, both have advantages and disadvantages.
And I also think the pilot is the factor...
Kev, what about engaging some Ef2000 in ur Su-33 instead of the F-18?
Either u are blasted by Prowler in a F-18 or by me in a EFA...
;)

Hope we can fight out such soon in a FST enviroment.
That would be great, don't ya think??

;-)

The Punisher

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to


----------
> From: Ron Walker <Spot...@compuserve.com>

> like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has
> anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
> would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move
at
> mega speeds at a tangent!

Yes I encountered this several times!!! It seemed to happed when I was not
watching the enemy. suddenly instead of going forward they were flying
backwards!! I have not had this problem in quite a while, but it did happen
dozens of times (it might have happened during a high altitude stall).
the main problem I have had with enemy (and friendly) planes is they DONT
fly the same as the players aircraft! I needed some large spaceships to
bank and turn like they were VERY heavy, but there seems to ba a limit as
to how lazy they will turn. And hanger generated aircraft dont seem to have
a minimum airspeed, I tried to make the speeds on paths too slow to fly
when landing, but they will fly at 5 or 10 knotts 2 meters over a runway
and still not even look like they are about to stall.

Larry Brown

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

About a year ago I was playing around with a flight model for a Mig-29,
I wanted to be able the do the cobra. Well I was able to build a flight
model that could do it but you could also do a tail slide for about
30,000 ft and pull out of it. It was kinda a fluke, but it worked.
Although it wasn't even close to what the specs are for the Mig-29, it
was fun to fly. I'll have to dig it out and upload it.

Larry

"Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
Diamond Multimedia
Larry Brown
Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
Technical Support
lar...@diamondmm.com
7101 Supra Drive
Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
Technical Support (541)967-2450
BBS (541)967-2444
FaxBack (800)380-0030
http://www.diamondmm.com
Tech support hours: Mon-Fri 5am-7pm PST Sat 8am-4pm PST
Live Technical Support Chat: Tuesday 10AM-12PM PST, Thursday 3PM-5PM PST
Server: chat.talkcity.com Port: 6667 Channel: #diamond


> ----------
> From: Peter Wuesten[SMTP:uzs...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de]
> Reply To: FST Mailing List
> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 1998 4:35 PM
> To: FST Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Wow :)


>
> At 14:36 08.02.98 -0600, you wrote:

> >About six months back I developed a neat way of getting out the path
> of an
> >onslaught of enemies, I would turn the engines off in a steep climb,
> lower
> >the gear, deploy the airbrakes, and pull staright back. Obviously
> the
> >craft would come to a halt real quick, and then it would "fall"
> backwards
> >and whip out away from the enemy formation in a flat spin(something
> very
> >unusual in FST). I'd turn the engines back on, and target them as
> they
> >tried to run. Well, a few times I noticed the enemy planes rising
> >vertically(like VTOL)and they'd keep hammering me from the side.
> When I
> >begin to fall, they'd fly backwards and follow me down for a while.
> It
> >doesn't happen often, but when it does, you usually get clobberred,
> mostly
> >because you stop and stare in disbelief!
> >

> >Mark
>
> Now get this:
> I made a Fieseler Storch flight-model for the player aircraft that
> will let
> you cruise at 30 knots. I had some aircraft with a relatively high
> stallspeed chasing me, and, guess what:
> At 30 kts it stuck at my back, without stalling or whatever.
> Strange, isn't it?
>
> Peter
>

> Peter Wuesten
> uzs...@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de
> - unser Mann in Bonn -
>

Mike Gilmartin

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

One of the cool things we are doing with Confirmed Kill is coding it specifically for Plug-ins. When we develop a new plane or mission (as a .DLL) all we have to do is put it on the autopatcher. When the user logs in it will get the new aircraft and automatically plug it into the application. We are doing this so that we can do Monthly or Bi-monthly updates of the game. I am hoping to release something to the public so that you all can design your own aircraft and upload them to the patcher so everyone can see them. But that is a little while off if it even happens. If that happens people will be able to design there own missions and paint there own aircraft. Then everyone can see them.

Mike GIlmartin

----------
From: Jens B?rner [SMTP:lo...@odn.de]
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 1998 10:56 AM
To: FST Mailing List
Subject: Re: FST: The failed premise

Bryan McNett schrieb:

> there is a huge market for updates in the form of "mission packs". you can
> walk into any game store and buy armloads of new scenarios for Warcraft 2,
> Command & Conquer, Duke Nukem, Quake.. not to mention MSFS. These things
> often cost much less than a new game.

Yes, this is excatly what I mean: plug-ins, extra missions, add-ons,
updates...
But most flight sims lack these, unlike eg. Red Alert with its Mission
Builder.
Such as a Tactom Pack for EF2000 is simply not enough.
Thats why FST has so much potential.

Jens

Larry Brown

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Mike,
Will their be a off-line feature for target practice? And will
it be better then shooting at bricks, like in Warbirds?

"Please include previous correspondence for continuance of support"
Diamond Multimedia
Larry Brown
Fire GL Series, Viper Series, Stealth Series
Technical Support
lar...@diamondmm.com
7101 Supra Drive
Albany, Oregon 97321 USA
Technical Support (541)967-2450
BBS (541)967-2444
FaxBack (800)380-0030
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> ----------
> From: Mike Gilmartin[SMTP:mgilm...@eidos.com]


> Reply To: FST Mailing List

> Sent: Monday, February 09, 1998 9:58 AM
> To: FST Mailing List
> Subject: RE: FST: The failed premise

Joe Marullo

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

At 10:15 AM 2/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>problem was, the FST User Group, gave Domark a full and ongoing bug list
>and problems update, like the 'Fabled' Backwards flying enemy jets! Has

>anyone on the list encountered this? If you made the enemy a jet , it
>would often fly backwards, stop and hover, turn on a sixpence, and move at
>mega speeds at a tangent! Domark just didn't want to know .

LoL. I remember that. :)

Kevin Kwan

unread,
Feb 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/9/98
to

Heheheh...Well, If the F/A-18s do come after me, I'll know for sure that
the Russian VVS's MiG-31s will slug them out of the sky.
(Heh...The Russian Navy depends on the Russian Air Force for Air
Support...And the Carrier Kunetsov is still in the black sea...Sounds as
funny as seeing the USS Enterprise in Lake Camplain receiving CAP from the
USAF F-15s...
I bet the Sukhoi Crews are embarassed as all they can get when they found
out that the safety of their carrier depends on a bunch of "Land-lubbers".

Actually, If I have a choice of Russian weapons, I'll choose the
MiG-31...150 mile radar, 30 target track, 6 target lock, BVR Intercept...
It's like the Russian "Tornadoski" except it can haul in Mach 2.6 and can
go crazy at treetop heights. Not much of a Dogfighter, but with a
weaponry advantage and speed like that, speed slash attacks against the
"Plastic bugs", followed by ECM will make the USN pukes miserable.
I'll shoot the USN Pukes down even before they get close to anything.
(Besides, as I remember from Paul Gunston's Modern Air Combat, if you need
to dogfight in an Air Battle, then you screwed up. BVR is usually what
you want in an Air Battle.)

Of course, we're only dealing with MiGs VS Hornets.
If it's MiGs VS Tomcats, then I want a steed like an Su-27 with AA-12
Archers (Amraamski), and decoys to slack those Phoenix missiles off.

:)kev

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Jens B?rner wrote:

> Prowl...@aol.com schrieb:
>
> > Jens, you take me far to seriously. I do not dispute the performance
> > advantages of the Su-33. I'm merely making a good natured jibe at Kev's
> > statement. I had to take up the challenge. After all it is a matter of
> > pride. And in the end superior performance can be overcome by skill and
> > experience:)
>
> Hehe, I know. I also did not mean it too serious. I like both F-18 and
> Su-33, both have advantages and disadvantages.
> And I also think the pilot is the factor...
> Kev, what about engaging some Ef2000 in ur Su-33 instead of the F-18?
> Either u are blasted by Prowler in a F-18 or by me in a EFA...
> ;)
>
> Hope we can fight out such soon in a FST enviroment.
> That would be great, don't ya think??
>
> ;-)
>
> Jens

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
to

Mike Gilmartin schrieb:

>
> One of the cool things we are doing with Confirmed Kill is coding it specifically for Plug-ins. When we develop a new plane or mission (as a .DLL) all we have to do is put it on the autopatcher. When the user logs in it will get the new aircraft and automatically plug it into the application. We are doing this so that we can do Monthly or Bi-monthly updates of the game. I am hoping to release something to the public so that you all can design your own aircraft and upload them to the patcher so everyone can see them. But that is a little while off if it even happens. If that happens people will be able to design there own missions and paint there own aircraft. Then everyone can see them.

Would increase the fans of the game by a huge factor. Those effects can
be watched at various games. Of course the best would be if
such plugins could be designed with FST and some extra stuff... such as
a converters.
Perhaps its no bad idea to contact DJ for that, if FST 98 would be
compatible with CK II both sides would have many advantages.

Jens Börner

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
to

Larry Brown schrieb:

>
> About a year ago I was playing around with a flight model for a Mig-29,
> I wanted to be able the do the cobra. Well I was able to build a flight
> model that could do it but you could also do a tail slide for about
> 30,000 ft and pull out of it. It was kinda a fluke, but it worked.
> Although it wasn't even close to what the specs are for the Mig-29, it
> was fun to fly. I'll have to dig it out and upload it.

The only problem is the MiG-29 cannot do a cobra, the Su-27,33,37 is the
only aircraft in the world currently that can do it.
Even if other (western) aircrafts would have the airodynamics, their
engines would havbe a flame-out and maybe even worse.
But that's not the point. The point is some of u await sometimes too
much from the models (I only watched this with surprise several times);
some think the model would behave easy when modelled realistic. Thats
not true. Many would perhaps be disappointed if they discover how bad
eg. some planes from WW II fly and behave. The Spitfire eg. was likely
to stall in turns. It slowed down drastically.
The P-51 climbed sloooooowly. And also lost much speed-though not as
much as the Spitfire. The Me-109 and Fw-190 did not have such a good
turning performance as many think- The Me-109 from the G-series on was a
bad turner.
Same for jets-not talking of early jets which could be oversteared very
easily in turns- no, lets talk about such aircraft as the famous
F-16: the roll-rate is so agressive , u would be horrified. And there is
no way to accelerate into the sky as many "so-called" sims (USNF!) show.

Well, this is due to those sims in the past which had so many errors, or
even did not earn the name sim. There are only few examples.

FST does not simulate ONE jet or ONE prop, it only provides the physics.


When u aks me, use the WWII update models as a reference; they are the
best of the tow add-on sims.
Almost realistic.
Jens

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
to

Mark Meskin schrieb:

> Jens thinks its because of high lift flight models. If thats true, then it
> means the computer is *enhancing* the capabilities of the flight models for
> enemy planes much beyond what those same flight models will perform for the
> player. Which is fucking annoying.

No, I do not think he modifies them, Keep in mind the model has a
joystick input/output factor,
and other player's input variables. Those will not be used by the
computer, so models u limit the G-force or the turning performance by
the joystick factor will certainly have a better performance when flown
by the computer. This does not happen when ur model behaves realistic-
no matter how u set the input factor.

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/10/98
to

Kevin Kwan schrieb:

>
> Heheheh...Well, If the F/A-18s do come after me, I'll know for sure that
> the Russian VVS's MiG-31s will slug them out of the sky.
> (Heh...The Russian Navy depends on the Russian Air Force for Air
> Support...And the Carrier Kunetsov is still in the black sea...Sounds as
> funny as seeing the USS Enterprise in Lake Camplain receiving CAP from the
> USAF F-15s...
> I bet the Sukhoi Crews are embarassed as all they can get when they found
> out that the safety of their carrier depends on a bunch of "Land-lubbers".
>
> Actually, If I have a choice of Russian weapons, I'll choose the
> MiG-31...150 mile radar, 30 target track, 6 target lock, BVR Intercept...
> It's like the Russian "Tornadoski" except it can haul in Mach 2.6 and can
> go crazy at treetop heights.

Correct me if I understoof you wrong, language mísunderstandings may
happen.
Did u say the MiG-31 can go at Mach 2.6 at tree-height?
Thats simply wrong. The Tornado is still the fastest low-level jet, with
Mach 1.2
No other aircraft can reach, hold and manouver savely at this speed at
this alt.
There is no equivalent in the russian armed air forces for the Pa-200,
and I never heard of
the expression "Tornadoski".
The MiG-31 Foxhound reaches about Mach 2.4 in 30.000feet, but at this
speed u can hardly do anything except flying straight.




> Not much of a Dogfighter, but with a
> weaponry advantage and speed like that, speed slash attacks against the
> "Plastic bugs", followed by ECM will make the USN pukes miserable.

Its just as with the "Phonix": shoot, hope, if luck, good, if not, bad
luck.
Then u should slow down for some Gunfight.

> I'll shoot the USN Pukes down even before they get close to anything.
> (Besides, as I remember from Paul Gunston's Modern Air Combat, if you need
> to dogfight in an Air Battle, then you screwed up. BVR is usually what
> you want in an Air Battle.)

This wonderful book was certainly not written by a MiG-31 pilot.

< Comment: U can compare the MiG-31 with the F-14A, both in armament and
cap mission brief >


I wish you that you never have to engage neither u russian nor a USN
pilot in combat....
;)

Jens & Sam

Jens B?rner

unread,
Feb 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/11/98
to

Mark Meskin schrieb:
>
> Jens,
>
> What's this "joystick input factor" and why would that allow the computer
> to get drastically better and much different performance out of the same
> flight model as the player has. Ive never heard any of this before, and
> I'm not sure I understand what youre trying to say.
>
> Is the computer cheating, is FST writtent to allow the PC to cheat, or is
> just that the slpooy programming doesn't prevent it from doing so?

None of this.
The variable "control power" in the model controls the way how the
aircraft reacts to ur joystick inputs.
Many use this factor to make unstable aircraft more stable.
Of course this doesn't affect AI players, so the computer will let this
aircraft perform as if there is no such value.
This also often explains the strange "stop-in-mid-air AI players"
effect; an aircraft model with a very low stalling speed that
only has a low input level will perform for the player is if it takes
off very late.
But for the computer only the real stalling speed counts.
And if this is very low...

Jens

Mark Meskin

unread,
Feb 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/11/98
to

Jens,

What's this "joystick input factor" and why would that allow the computer
to get drastically better and much different performance out of the same
flight model as the player has. Ive never heard any of this before, and
I'm not sure I understand what youre trying to say.

Is the computer cheating, is FST writtent to allow the PC to cheat, or is
just that the slpooy programming doesn't prevent it from doing so?


-Mark
plastic...@newrock.com

----------
> From: Jens B?rner <lo...@odn.de>


> To: FST Mailing List <f...@bigpanda.com>

> Subject: Re: models
> Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 11:25 AM


>
> Mark Meskin schrieb:
>
> > Jens thinks its because of high lift flight models. If thats true,
then it
> > means the computer is *enhancing* the capabilities of the flight models
for
> > enemy planes much beyond what those same flight models will perform for
the
> > player. Which is fucking annoying.
>
> No, I do not think he modifies them, Keep in mind the model has a
> joystick input/output factor,
> and other player's input variables. Those will not be used by the
> computer, so models u limit the G-force or the turning performance by
> the joystick factor will certainly have a better performance when flown
> by the computer. This does not happen when ur model behaves realistic-
> no matter how u set the input factor.
>

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