Alpha Centauri (SMAC) will support Hotseat and PBEM
Klaus Breuer
> Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
> play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
> download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
> as the product is in stores.
Coooooool!
> A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
> worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
> took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
Okay...let's assume your time is worth $200/hour. Meaning adding these
features cost you $1,600. Assume you get $15 off every game you sell.
Will this feature sell 100 games more? Heck, yes!
So - well worth it :)
> Here are some of the features:
[snip]
Darn, cantwaitcantwaitcantwait...
Real cool idea, increasing the maximum possible map size. Means I'll
still have a lot of fun with it on my P8 1000MHz :)
Ciao,
Klaus
---
Klaus Breuer, 7095 N. Fruit Ave, Apt #253, Fresno, CA 93711, USA
"What, I need a *reason* for everything?" -- Calvin
"Should I or shouldn't I? Too late, I did!" -- Hobbes
Brian Reynolds
Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
as the product is in stores.
A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
Here are some of the features:
* 2-7 players supported for hotseat/email games
* FULL diplomatic support, including full negotiations w/ other human
players. The multiplayer negotiation screen (a la net games) is used;
you put your offers on the chart; the other player, once his/her turn
rolls around, sees your offers, puts his/her offers up (and can click
"agree" or "decline" if desired). On your next turn you see the full
deal and can agree/decline. If you both agree, deal is resolved;
otherwise deal can be modified (negotiations continue) or cancelled.
Deal can be for tech, energy, attack-my-enemy, truce, treaty, pact.
Gifts are also allowed.
* Yes, the PLANETARY COUNCIL is also supported in hotseat/PBEM; works
on the same general model as human-to-human diplomacy.
* "Chat" messages are saved from turn to turn in diplomacy window, so
you can type private messages for another player to read.
* You can "drop" from a hotseat/e-mail game if your position is
hopeless-- the AI takes over your position and the game stops
prompting for your turns.
* Your faction can be "password protected".
* Saved games are tamper-resistant.
* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
it I won't discuss in further detail).
We've also added quite a few miscellaneous features, as requested by
player here. I'll list a few of them here to tantalize... :-)
* Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited
only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all).
A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a
standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000 squares)
took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.
* You can see the destination of a unit (i.e. the whole path) whenever
you highlight it.
* You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
overt diplomatic penalties).
* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
are).
* As you already know, both hi-res and lo-res unit graphics will be
available.
* We're working on a "color-blind-friendly" alternate palette, which
we hope to have ready by then.
I don't actually have my list with me, so that'll have to do for now.
I'm going to be out of town for a week so my posts may diminish or
cease until 1st week of February.
Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games
AcK!
brey...@firaxis.com (Brian Reynolds)'s computer and wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>
>Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
>play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
>download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
>as the product is in stores.
Important question: Can you playing a game together, and then switch to PBEM when the
games slows down?
>A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
>worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
>took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
"8 hours of coding"
LOL!
>Here are some of the features:
>* 2-7 players supported for hotseat/email games
<snip>
>* Saved games are tamper-resistant.
Resistant. :)
>* Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited
>only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all).
>A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a
>standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000 squares)
>took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.
Good.
>* You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
>again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
>overt diplomatic penalties).
Excellent! I'm sure that there'll be a confirmation box, just in case you hit the
wrong key... :)
>* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
>are).
Excellent - the game makes sense. :)
TTYL
... Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn
krup...@yahoospa.com
remove "spa" to email
Jason Kozak
>Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:45:36 GMT was when a million monkeys took over
>brey...@firaxis.com (Brian Reynolds)'s computer and wrote:
<snip>
>>A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
>>worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
>>took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
>
>"8 hours of coding"
>LOL!
Trust me, 8 hours is nothing being compared to what was obviously put
into SMAC. Also, being a developer myself working on my own 4x
strategy game(which I care not to mention because it isn't far enough
along to start any hype about) I know the meaning of sleepless
days(yes, you heard me... days :)
I just hope everyone appreciates the work put into this fine game.
Jason Kozak
<Kl...@LightSpeed.net> wrote:
>Hi!
>
>> Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
>> play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
>> download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
>> as the product is in stores.
>Coooooool!
>
>> A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
>> worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
>> took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
>Okay...let's assume your time is worth $200/hour. Meaning adding these
>features cost you $1,600. Assume you get $15 off every game you sell.
>Will this feature sell 100 games more? Heck, yes!
$15 whole dollars per game? $200/hour? <faints> :)
SnowFire
> A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
> worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
> took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
Excellent... I can't wait to play myself in hotseat. No, I'm not crazy.
<snip>
> * Yes, the PLANETARY COUNCIL is also supported in hotseat/PBEM; works
> on the same general model as human-to-human diplomacy.
Great... how about the voting order? Does everyone vote and bribe, then
see the results? Or do you see the results, and then actively change
things, like in single player?
>
> * Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited
> only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all).
> A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a
> standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000 squares)
> took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.
I'll assume that the efficiency penalties, etc. will be reduced
correspondinly at the higher map sizes... right? I heard about this
before, but I hope it's tied to map size, and not hard coded that
efficiency penalties are such-and-such on a huge map, this much on a small
map, etc.
> * You can see the destination of a unit (i.e. the whole path) whenever
> you highlight it.
> * You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
> again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
> overt diplomatic penalties).
Yes... I don't think I'll do that too much though, they'd lose my Planet
bonus.
> * Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
> are).
Excellent! Glad that this made it in...
Thanks for all the changes, I'm sure this'll add a lot to the game.
Brian Reynolds
>games slows down?
You can freely switch between hotseat and PBEM. You can "sort of"
switch between hotseat/PBEM and network multiplayer, but you have to
be careful when you do it because multiplayer and
singleplayer+hotseat+pbem have slightly different upkeep/turn
sequences which could end up giving some players an extra upkeep, or
shortchanging them of one.
denn...@telepath.com
brey...@firaxis.com (Brian Reynolds) wrote:
> * You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
> again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
> overt diplomatic penalties).
Ewww! Now there's a nifty idea!
However, I keep picturing the tame mindworms just following me home instead,
with hurt looks on their cute little wormy faces...
:-)
T.E.D.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
jn...@my-dejanews.com
> > * You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
> > again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
> > overt diplomatic penalties).
>
> Ewww! Now there's a nifty idea!
>
I'm wondering if they've been improved to pre-boil or boil status if they
retain that when released.
If so, one more reason to use the Green economy.
I'm thinking that challenges in SMAC will be winning not making the Green
choice while having a constant state of war with factions making that choice.
Jon Nunn
Friends Don't Let Friends Do Cobol
Bob Roland
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
> play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
> download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
> as the product is in stores.
So I just have one comment;
ARE YOU GUYS THE GREASTEST OR WHAT!?!!
Good god. I've seen alot of games come and go, but you guys kick some
serious rear! You have a great product, and it's being released by a
great company.
The more I read your posts, Brian, the cooler I think y'all are.
Keep up the good work!
Chairman Bob
GuildBoss
>Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
>play and play-by-email.
Excellent! *Simultaneous* multiplayer is great, but for me and my
buddies (all married with many young brats, er, children) our
schedules very rarely allow for a decent game this way. PBEM changes
that rule, however! Sweeet.
>* You can "drop" from a hotseat/e-mail game if your position is
>hopeless-- the AI takes over your position and the game stops
>prompting for your turns.
Great. What about taking over an AI base? Is this possible?
>* Saved games are tamper-resistant.
>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
>it I won't discuss in further detail).
I hope so! Warlords 3 had a similar claim but was fairly easily
defeated... :-(
Good job, Brian.
To Reply, replace *nospam* with *guildboss*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul H. Soares, Jr.
GuildBoss - Guild and Clan Manager for Win9x/NT
http://www.guildboss.com
Daniël Proost
Brian Reynolds wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>
>download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
>as the product is in stores.
Great news! Thank you Brian, and everyone else at
FIRAXIS for doing this.
>We've also added quite a few miscellaneous features, as requested by
>player here. I'll list a few of them here to tantalize... :-)
>* You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
>again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
>overt diplomatic penalties).
Maybe this is also a good idea: when your planet rating
is very low sometimes mindworms under control of a
faction turn wild on their own? This won't happen to
mindworms in a city b/c there will be more control.
>* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
>are).
When an unflagged Probe teams enters one of my
bases and tries to steal some knowledge will I
automaticly get the name of the faction they belong
to? Or will this be determined by other factors? (Like
ie: are there Probe teams of my own in that city;
technology level; city size; happines?)
Also when there is only one enemy left will there be
a message like: 'A Probe team of Unknown origin
has stolen technology X.' I hope not, it would be
very clear which faction had done the stealing;-)
--
Daniël Proost <dwpr...@telekabel.nl>
ICQ 25652054
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister
>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
>it I won't discuss in further detail).
I've seen the algorithm; it goes like this:
if (tampering_detected) initiate_self_destruct_sequence(noWarning);
:-)
Skrills for the Skrill God!&%$# SKREEEEEEEEEEEEE!&*!%$!#@
--
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister, UIN 13168333 <brother...@geocities.com>
Colen's Warhammer Page: <http://surf.to/colen/> DiaChronos Software:
<http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/4368/programs/>
Capital Punishment means never having to say "YOU AGAIN?"
SnowFire
> >are).
>
>
> When an unflagged Probe teams enters one of my
> bases and tries to steal some knowledge will I
> automaticly get the name of the faction they belong
> to? Or will this be determined by other factors? (Like
> ie: are there Probe teams of my own in that city;
> technology level; city size; happines?)
>
> Also when there is only one enemy left will there be
> a message like: 'A Probe team of Unknown origin
> has stolen technology X.' I hope not, it would be
> very clear which faction had done the stealing;-)
I'm not BR, but my guess would be this: if you steal normally, you'll be
revealed. But if you frame it on another opponent succesfully, then they
get the message that they stope the tech.
--
-SnowFire
Webmaster of The Mindworm, Chiron's First Strategy & Tactics Magazine
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/7217/smac/
Brad Mayer
given the option to blame another (computer) player for the probe attempt,
why not the computer player doing the same to the human player?
Xalorous
multiplayer that is. You can barter. I'll trade my ___ but only if
you give me your ____. For the blanks you can choose units, cities,
treaties, maps, etc. Anything you could normally give. And the
blanks don't have to match. (I'll trade you 1000gp for your city, or
I'll trade my diplomat for yours).
Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36b219ea...@news.clark.net>...
>Hi Everyone,
>
>Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
>play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
>download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as
soon
>as the product is in stores.
>
>A lot of people asked us about hotseat and PBEM, so we figured it was
>worth taking a look at the possibility, and ... surprise! ... it only
>took me about 8 hours of coding to put them in. :-)
>
>Here are some of the features:
>* 2-7 players supported for hotseat/email games
>* FULL diplomatic support, including full negotiations w/ other human
>players. The multiplayer negotiation screen (a la net games) is used;
>you put your offers on the chart; the other player, once his/her turn
>rolls around, sees your offers, puts his/her offers up (and can click
>"agree" or "decline" if desired). On your next turn you see the full
>deal and can agree/decline. If you both agree, deal is resolved;
>otherwise deal can be modified (negotiations continue) or cancelled.
>Deal can be for tech, energy, attack-my-enemy, truce, treaty, pact.
>Gifts are also allowed.
>* Yes, the PLANETARY COUNCIL is also supported in hotseat/PBEM; works
>on the same general model as human-to-human diplomacy.
>* "Chat" messages are saved from turn to turn in diplomacy window, so
>you can type private messages for another player to read.
>* You can "drop" from a hotseat/e-mail game if your position is
>hopeless-- the AI takes over your position and the game stops
>prompting for your turns.
>* Your faction can be "password protected".
>* Saved games are tamper-resistant.
>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
>it I won't discuss in further detail).
>
>We've also added quite a few miscellaneous features, as requested by
>player here. I'll list a few of them here to tantalize... :-)
>
>* Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited
>only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all).
>A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a
>standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000
squares)
>took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.
>* You can see the destination of a unit (i.e. the whole path)
whenever
>you highlight it.
>* You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
>again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
>overt diplomatic penalties).
>* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
>are).
>* As you already know, both hi-res and lo-res unit graphics will be
>available.
>* We're working on a "color-blind-friendly" alternate palette, which
>we hope to have ready by then.
>
>I don't actually have my list with me, so that'll have to do for now.
>
>I'm going to be out of town for a week so my posts may diminish or
>cease until 1st week of February.
>
Xalorous
Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36b34415...@news.clark.net>...
>>Important question: Can you playing a game together, and then switch
to PBEM when the
>>games slows down?
>
>You can freely switch between hotseat and PBEM. You can "sort of"
>switch between hotseat/PBEM and network multiplayer, but you have to
>be careful when you do it because multiplayer and
>singleplayer+hotseat+pbem have slightly different upkeep/turn
>sequences which could end up giving some players an extra upkeep, or
>shortchanging them of one.
>
>Alpha Centauri Designer
>FIRAXIS Games
So when is the proper time to switch?
Yyrkroon
science.. yeah, like I'm going to believe the Silicoid are stealing
enviornmental tech...
YY
Brad Mayer wrote in message <36AE8310...@dnai.com>...
Adam Saunders
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
> play and play-by-email.
Sorry to display my ignorance, but what is 'hotseat play'?
> * We're working on a "color-blind-friendly" alternate palette, which
> we hope to have ready by then.
Excellent news - thanks for that one - it will be very much appreciated!
Adam Saunders
Neil Fradkin
When people all play on the same computer, taking turns. Before the net
and even reasonably fast modems this was the standard form of multiplayer
gaming. Called
"hotseat" because one person would take their turn, get up from the chair in
front of the computer and then the next person would sit down to take his
turn.
Brian Reynolds
>In article <36b219ea...@news.clark.net>,
> brey...@firaxis.com (Brian Reynolds) wrote:
>
>> * You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
>> again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
>> overt diplomatic penalties).
>
>Ewww! Now there's a nifty idea!
>
>However, I keep picturing the tame mindworms just following me home instead,
>with hurt looks on their cute little wormy faces...
>:-)
I'll put that in right away... ;-)
BR
Brian Reynolds
<dwpr...@telekabel.nl> wrote:
>
>Brian Reynolds wrote:
>>Hi Everyone,
>>
>>Just wanted to announce that Alpha Centauri -will- support hotseat
>>play and play-by-email. This will be available in our first free
>>download enhancement, which we hope to have ready for download as soon
>>as the product is in stores.
>
>
>Great news! Thank you Brian, and everyone else at
>FIRAXIS for doing this.
>
>>We've also added quite a few miscellaneous features, as requested by
>>player here. I'll list a few of them here to tantalize... :-)
>
>
>>* You can release mindworms "into the wild" (i.e. they turn 'red'
>>again). Great way to wreak havoc in opponent's area w/o incurring
>>overt diplomatic penalties).
>
>Maybe this is also a good idea: when your planet rating
>is very low sometimes mindworms under control of a
>faction turn wild on their own? This won't happen to
>mindworms in a city b/c there will be more control.
That sounds pretty cool!
>
>>* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
>>are).
>
>
>When an unflagged Probe teams enters one of my
>bases and tries to steal some knowledge will I
>automaticly get the name of the faction they belong
>to? Or will this be determined by other factors? (Like
>ie: are there Probe teams of my own in that city;
>technology level; city size; happines?)
>
>Also when there is only one enemy left will there be
>a message like: 'A Probe team of Unknown origin
>has stolen technology X.' I hope not, it would be
>very clear which faction had done the stealing;-)
My general idea right now is that probe teams won't have flags, so you
won't be able to instantly tell who they are just by seeing them, but
pretty much everything else will be the same-- if you capture a probe
team you'll know whose it was. Moreover, if you have time to "walk up
to it and examine it", the info box will tell whose it is.
So there'll be some vagueness for multiplayer if you're snappy &
sneaky enough with your probe teams, but if you're slow and clumsy
you'll probably be found out.
BR
Brian Reynolds
BR
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:08:00 -0800, Brad Mayer <conc...@dnai.com>
wrote:
>Hmmm, this opens up an interesting possibility. Just as the human player is
>given the option to blame another (computer) player for the probe attempt,
>why not the computer player doing the same to the human player?
>
>SnowFire wrote:
>
>> > >* Probe teams don't have colored flags (harder to tell whose they
>> > >are).
>> >
>> >
>> > When an unflagged Probe teams enters one of my
>> > bases and tries to steal some knowledge will I
>> > automaticly get the name of the faction they belong
>> > to? Or will this be determined by other factors? (Like
>> > ie: are there Probe teams of my own in that city;
>> > technology level; city size; happines?)
>> >
>> > Also when there is only one enemy left will there be
>> > a message like: 'A Probe team of Unknown origin
>> > has stolen technology X.' I hope not, it would be
>> > very clear which faction had done the stealing;-)
>>
Brian Reynolds
<co...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>One fine day in the middle of the night, Brian Reynolds spoke:
>
>>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
>>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
>>it I won't discuss in further detail).
>
>I've seen the algorithm; it goes like this:
>
> if (tampering_detected) initiate_self_destruct_sequence(noWarning);
Actually it just pops up a message during everyone else's turn saying
that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
during so-and-so's turn.
BR
Brian Reynolds
implemented):
On the multiplayer diplomacy screen, each side has a list of the
things they're offering in a deal (energy, tech, treaties, maps,
commlinks, attack-this-enemy). Each player can freely add to his/her
column as many things as he/she would like to offer.
Then when both players click "agree" everything from Column A is given
to player B and everything from Column B is given to player A,
simultaneously. So basically this is a system for enforcing trades as
you describe. Note that if the other player clicks "agree", and then
you add or subtract anything from your list, his "agree" is
automatically unclicked (so no way to cheat/renege).
And of course a player could fill up his offer column with lots of
stuff, and click Agree without demanding anything from opponent (i.e.
you're giving stuff for free).
Or a player can demand (in chat) that you give him X, Y, and Z (for
nothing) or he'll attack you.
Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games
On 26 Jan 1999 23:14:08 -0600, "Xalorous"
Brian Reynolds
>Sorry to display my ignorance, but what is 'hotseat play'?
In hotseat play, everybody plays on the same computer: you play your
turn, then the computer blanks the screen and says "okay, now it's
player #2's turn". Player 2 now sits down (in the seat you've kept
nice and warm for him) and does a turn, etc.
This is one of the traditional ways multiplayer was done before the
advent of net play.
Brian Reynolds
To switch from hotseat to network play, wait for the last human player
in the turn sequence to finish his/her turn, then before actually
ending the turn save the game. This will work perfectly if human
player is also the very last -player- in the turn sequence; otherwise
a couple AI players will miss a turn ("big deal").
To switch from network(non-simultaneous) to hotseat play, do the same
thing in reverse--save at end of last player's turn.
To switch from network(simultaneous) to hotseat play, turn off time
controls if you have them set, have everyone move all their units.
Before proceeding to next turn, have the player whose faction (in a
hotseat game) would be last in the turn sequence be the one who saves
the game. Reload from that saved game in hotseat/PBEM mode.
Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games
On 26 Jan 1999 23:14:09 -0600, "Xalorous"
<xalorous_at...@fixthistoreply.com> wrote:
>
>Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36b34415...@news.clark.net>...
>>>Important question: Can you playing a game together, and then switch
>to PBEM when the
>>>games slows down?
>>
>>You can freely switch between hotseat and PBEM. You can "sort of"
>>switch between hotseat/PBEM and network multiplayer, but you have to
>>be careful when you do it because multiplayer and
>>singleplayer+hotseat+pbem have slightly different upkeep/turn
>>sequences which could end up giving some players an extra upkeep, or
>>shortchanging them of one.
>>
>>Brian Reynolds
>>Alpha Centauri Designer
>>FIRAXIS Games
>
>
Xalorous
But you can save your text for your manual people. Such things should
be in the manual.
Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36b03b3a...@news.clark.net>...
Xalorous
in Civ2 but had to do it in separate trades.
Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36b53dc1...@news.clark.net>...
>Yes, that feature is available in SMAC (and I think even better
>implemented):
>
>On the multiplayer diplomacy screen, each side has a list of the
>things they're offering in a deal (energy, tech, treaties, maps,
>commlinks, attack-this-enemy). Each player can freely add to his/her
>column as many things as he/she would like to offer.
>
>Then when both players click "agree" everything from Column A is
given
>to player B and everything from Column B is given to player A,
>simultaneously. So basically this is a system for enforcing trades as
>you describe. Note that if the other player clicks "agree", and then
>you add or subtract anything from your list, his "agree" is
>automatically unclicked (so no way to cheat/renege).
>
>And of course a player could fill up his offer column with lots of
>stuff, and click Agree without demanding anything from opponent (i.e.
>you're giving stuff for free).
>
>Or a player can demand (in chat) that you give him X, Y, and Z (for
>nothing) or he'll attack you.
>
>Brian Reynolds
>Alpha Centauri Designer
>FIRAXIS Games
>
>
>
Adam Saunders
- just didn't know what it was called. Thanks to Brian and Neal for
taking the time to explain. Now I know what it is, I'm even more
impressed than I was before - and that's saying something!
Adam Saunders
-----#-----
Brian Reynolds wrote:
> In hotseat play, everybody plays on the same computer: you play your
> turn, then the computer blanks the screen and says "okay, now it's
> player #2's turn". Player 2 now sits down (in the seat you've kept
> nice and warm for him) and does a turn, etc.
SnowFire
> controls if you have them set, have everyone move all their units.
> Before proceeding to next turn, have the player whose faction (in a
> hotseat game) would be last in the turn sequence be the one who saves
> the game. Reload from that saved game in hotseat/PBEM mode.
>
> Alpha Centauri Designer
> FIRAXIS Games
>
Question. How do we know the "real" order in a simultaneous game, since
everyone's going at once?
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister
>>
>
>turn, then the computer blanks the screen and says "okay, now it's
>player #2's turn". Player 2 now sits down (in the seat you've kept
>nice and warm for him) and does a turn, etc.
>
>advent of net play.
Are you going to put in split-screen mode as well? }:>
Skrills for the Skrill God!&%$# SKREEEEEEEEEEEEE!&*!%$!#@
--
Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister, UIN 13168333 <brother...@geocities.com>
Colen's Warhammer Page: <http://surf.to/colen/> DiaChronos Software:
<http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/4368/programs/>
Cats sleep on shelves like motorized bookends.
E. Haviola
>Then when both players click "agree" everything from Column A is given
>to player B and everything from Column B is given to player A,
>simultaneously. So basically this is a system for enforcing trades as
>you describe. Note that if the other player clicks "agree", and then
>you add or subtract anything from your list, his "agree" is
>automatically unclicked (so no way to cheat/renege).
There's always this small possibility for cheating: if you yourself
have clicked "agree" you can try to snap one or more items off your
list right before your opponent clicks "agree" himself. But you'll get
exposed soon enough :) No need to change an otherwise perfect system
because of that.
"Salek" A10 eh...@nic.fi
Interests in: astronomy, quantum mechanics,
New Age, writing Sci-Fi, 3D-modelling, MFC
programming, strategy games. (ICQ 25706772)
Brian Reynolds
>everyone's going at once?
The order in which the factions are displayed in the single player
"choose your faction" dialog is the normal turn order.
Brian Reynolds
>have clicked "agree" you can try to snap one or more items off your
>list right before your opponent clicks "agree" himself. But you'll get
>exposed soon enough :) No need to change an otherwise perfect system
>because of that.
Well, maybe, but note that if you snap items off your list it turns
off your "agree" as well, so you'll have to "re-agree", which makes
this kind of timing thing a little more difficult.
Main "screwover" we came across in testing is that often people will
click "offer all tech", and then click "agree" without waiting for
opponent to offer anything, thinking opponent will "offer all tech"
too and then agree. But opponent can just click "agree" and take all
your tech for nothing.
jn...@my-dejanews.com
> Main "screwover" we came across in testing is that often people will
> click "offer all tech", and then click "agree" without waiting for
> opponent to offer anything, thinking opponent will "offer all tech"
> too and then agree. But opponent can just click "agree" and take all
> your tech for nothing.
>
The thing about that one doing that will have to be sure it's a good
time, as they probably won't be able to pull this con job a second
time on the same person. Plus I imagine the players themselves may
take care of con-men by having a group all declare a vendetta on the
person.
Jon Nunn
Friends Don't Let Friends Do Cobol
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
AcK!
(Jason Kozak)'s computer and wrote:
>>"8 hours of coding"
>>LOL!
>Trust me, 8 hours is nothing being compared to what was obviously put
>into SMAC. Also, being a developer myself working on my own 4x
I realized how vague my "LOL!" looked. Take it from the perspective of chuckling at a
statement like: "after merely an entire work day, it was there - no problem."
TTYL
... Agnostics open their prayers with 'To Whom it may concern...'
krup...@yahoospa.com
remove "spa" to email
AcK!
<xalorous_at...@fixthistoreply.com>'s computer and wrote:
>Oh, ok. So the question was a matter of common sense :)
>
>But you can save your text for your manual people. Such things should
>be in the manual.
Keep in mind that the manual has been printed, and PBEM has been made for the first
patch. A readme will have to cover this first, I guess...
TTYL
... If brute force can't fix the problem, you are not using enough
AcK!
brey...@firaxis.com (Brian Reynolds)'s computer and wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:19:36 +0000, Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister
><co...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>One fine day in the middle of the night, Brian Reynolds spoke:
>>
>>>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
>>>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
>>>it I won't discuss in further detail).
>>
>>I've seen the algorithm; it goes like this:
>>
>> if (tampering_detected) initiate_self_destruct_sequence(noWarning);
>
>Actually it just pops up a message during everyone else's turn saying
>that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
>during so-and-so's turn.
How potentially embarrasing... ;)
TTYL
... Helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission.
White Cat
> Actually it just pops up a message during everyone else's turn saying
> that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
> during so-and-so's turn.
Do those messages mean that the person _did_ tamper with the save file,
or are there other possible explanations?
- White Cat
Paul van den Belt
their turn and they had to reload.
Paul
White Cat wrote in message <36b2c...@news.nucleus.com>...
Brian Reynolds
BR
Cyberspace Buddha
>Main "screwover" we came across in testing is that often people will
>click "offer all tech", and then click "agree" without waiting for
>opponent to offer anything, thinking opponent will "offer all tech"
>too and then agree. But opponent can just click "agree" and take all
>your tech for nothing.
Heh, if you're foolish enough to offer a ton of stuff and then simply
click on 'agree' before the other player offers anything, it's hardly
a 'screwover' by the other player, you left yourself open for it. :)
cheers,
cb
--
Cyberspace Buddha /(0\ What's on, your mind?
mailto:c...@io.com \1)/ http://www.io.com/~cb
Not your fathers buddha.
Nachtergal Philippe
>
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:19:36 +0000, Colen 'Not Colin' McAlister
> <co...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >One fine day in the middle of the night, Brian Reynolds spoke:
> >
> >>* Saved games are "save/reload" cheat resistant. (Someone up here
> >>suggested an excellent algorithm for this; now that I've implemented
> >>it I won't discuss in further detail).
> >
> >I've seen the algorithm; it goes like this:
> >
> > if (tampering_detected) initiate_self_destruct_sequence(noWarning);
>
> that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
> during so-and-so's turn.
>
Hum.
But if i simply backup the savegame file before taking my turn and then
quit the game and reload that backup if something went wrong, how could
it detect it ?
Unless it write some specail info in a hidden file on in the registry ?
Well, i would just have to backup those too then : no big deal.
> My general idea right now is that probe teams won't have flags, so you
> won't be able to instantly tell who they are just by seeing them, but
> pretty much everything else will be the same-- if you capture a probe
> team you'll know whose it was. Moreover, if you have time to "walk up
> to it and examine it", the info box will tell whose it is.
>
uh ?
Does it mean that a simple right click on the probe will reveal it's
owner ?
If this is true, i think that flags should appear whenever the probe
isn't actually moving. (else it just become an hassle)
There might also be something like a cover : when a probe is in the same
place as another non-probe unit of the same movement type ( only for
land and sea probes ?), the probe unit cannot be seen except by the
owner or by the player offering the cover (if the owner isn't also
offering a cover for the probe). The idea is : Who can tell who the spy
is among 100 laser squadmen ? (answer : it's the one that shoot himself
in the foot)
Oh, by the way : a few more small problems i've seen in the demo :
- No info as to which technology offers the new things we can vote on in
the council. (like the global trade pact )
- Hard to grasp the tech tree : Which tech should i pick to reach tech
XXXX ?, what can i possibly learn right now ? ( so that i can get an
idea as to which realm [build,explore,...] i should put forward.)
Nachtergal Ph.
Caton
>
> Brian Reynolds wrote:
> >
> > Actually it just pops up a message during everyone else's turn saying
> > that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
> > during so-and-so's turn.
> >
> > BR
>
> Hum.
>
> But if i simply backup the savegame file before taking my turn and then
> quit the game and reload that backup if something went wrong, how could
> it detect it ?
It wouldn't need to. You're relying on the assumption that the state of
the random number generator hasn't been stored in the savefile, shrouded
in checksums and encryption. If SMAC saves (and restores) the RNG's
state on each save (and load), exactly the same thing will
happen each time... reloading will be pointless. There *are* ways around
this, as well, but they're a lot more complicated than just
reload/fight/reload/fight... and there are some fairly straightforward
techniques to make it even harder (or more laborious, at least).
> - No info as to which technology offers the new things we can vote on in
> the council. (like the global trade pact )
AFAICT, these are theoretically available from the start.
> - Hard to grasp the tech tree : Which tech should i pick to reach tech
> XXXX ?, what can i possibly learn right now ? ( so that i can get an
> idea as to which realm [build,explore,...] i should put forward.)
Use the tech browser. Techs that you've already got have a white font,
otherwise it's black. Pick the tech you want, the follow back the
pre-requisites until you see something you've got.
My 2 cents: It'd be nice if you could pimp your own votes (give me 500
bucks and I'll vote for you)
--
Caton Little
Tom Chick
>> - No info as to which technology offers the new things we can vote on in
>> the council. (like the global trade pact )
>
>AFAICT, these are theoretically available from the start.
No, you apparently have to research certain techs to do things like
Melt the Polar Ice Caps. I couldn't find these mentioned in the
manual (index-less: ack!). They may be on the tech tree poster, which
I haven't seen it yet.
-Tom Chick
*** ***
*** No .sig for me, thank you. ***
*** ***
AcK!
tomc...@cutthispartout.primenet.com (Tom Chick)'s computer and wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:02:31 +1300, Caton <ca...@netwin.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>> - No info as to which technology offers the new things we can vote on in
>>> the council. (like the global trade pact )
>>
>>AFAICT, these are theoretically available from the start.
>
>No, you apparently have to research certain techs to do things like
>Melt the Polar Ice Caps. I couldn't find these mentioned in the
>manual (index-less: ack!). They may be on the tech tree poster, which
You called? ;)
Keep in mind the manual for civ2 didn't have a index either... although it had a very
thorough table of contents...
TTYL
... "I'm as dirty as a Frenchman." - Homer
Nachtergal Philippe
>
> Nachtergal Philippe wrote:
> >
> > Brian Reynolds wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually it just pops up a message during everyone else's turn saying
> > > that there were X number of save/load (or whatever) irregularities
> > > during so-and-so's turn.
> > >
> > > BR
> >
> > Hum.
> >
> > But if i simply backup the savegame file before taking my turn and then
> > quit the game and reload that backup if something went wrong, how could
> > it detect it ?
>
> It wouldn't need to. You're relying on the assumption that the state of
> the random number generator hasn't been stored in the savefile, shrouded
> in checksums and encryption. If SMAC saves (and restores) the RNG's
> state on each save (and load), exactly the same thing will
> happen each time... reloading will be pointless. There *are* ways around
> this, as well, but they're a lot more complicated than just
> reload/fight/reload/fight... and there are some fairly straightforward
> techniques to make it even harder (or more laborious, at least).
>
Well, i was not relying on that asumption, indeed, i have recently
talked about how that was implemented in some old Microprose games like
colonization.
What i was indeed upon is that such a "predrawn numbers" scheme cannot
be sufficient.
The problem is that by simply changing the order in which you do things,
you change toward which end the predrawn random numbers will be used.
Even if the programmer has make a big effort so that "bad" random
numbers (bad for the acting player that is) are always at the same end
of the scale (e.g : small numbers are always bad news), you can still
abuse the system. ( not every throw need the same minimum result to be a
success, nor are all the throws of the same importance to the player)
That problem might be reduced by allocating various random seeds to
different actors in the game or to the different (subjective) levels of
importance of the related evenements. But this can never be done
perfectly for such a complex (and potentially random) game as SMAC.
Even if all all the actions made during your turn were ordered following
a static algorithm and the result computed at end of turn, it would
still be abusable as players can add or remove actions to shift *some*
of the results. ( you will still get some bad results but you will
mostly get them where you think you can afford them)
Ofc, making a very complex and very well thought scheme to avoid such
save/reload cheats might make it more troublesome for the player but i
don't see how it could make it impossible.
Nachtergal Ph.
Nachtergal Philippe
>
> On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:02:31 +1300, Caton <ca...@netwin.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >> - No info as to which technology offers the new things we can vote on in
> >> the council. (like the global trade pact )
> >
> >AFAICT, these are theoretically available from the start.
>
> No, you apparently have to research certain techs to do things like
> Melt the Polar Ice Caps. I couldn't find these mentioned in the
> manual (index-less: ack!). They may be on the tech tree poster, which
>
>
UH. Is the game already out that you have the manual ?
Or did firaxis give a manual to beta testers ?
I only have the demo, i didn;t that info anywhere in the tech tree, i
didn't even find WHAT all the possible votes are. (saw a good bunch of
them in a screenshot somewhere).
Nachtergal Ph.
Jasper Phillips
>Nachtergal Philippe wrote:
>
>It wouldn't need to. You're relying on the assumption that the state of
>the random number generator hasn't been stored in the savefile, shrouded
>in checksums and encryption. If SMAC saves (and restores) the RNG's
>state on each save (and load), exactly the same thing will
>happen each time... reloading will be pointless. There *are* ways around
>this, as well, but they're a lot more complicated than just
>reload/fight/reload/fight... and there are some fairly straightforward
>techniques to make it even harder (or more laborious, at least).
That's not really true. Easy example: I attack and fail. Rather than
reloading and attacking again, I reload, and back off.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
Tom Chick
<pe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>UH. Is the game already out that you have the manual ?
>
Actually, it's a photocopy of the manual. I have a press copy.
>I only have the demo, i didn;t that info anywhere in the tech tree, i
>didn't even find WHAT all the possible votes are. (saw a good bunch of
>them in a screenshot somewhere).
There are some pretty clever twists in there.
Unfortunately, once I've got all my Nerve Gas Helicopters primed and
ready to go, no one seems interested in Repealing the UN Charter that
prohibits atrocities! Sanctimonious bastards.
denn...@telepath.com
Nachtergal Philippe <pe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Or did firaxis give a manual to beta testers ?
Yes they did. It wasn't bound or anything. Just a bunch of laser-printed
copies put together with a large aligator clip. The only really remarkable
thing I remember about it was the rather nice essay that Brian put in near
the back.
T.E.D.
Caton
>
> Caton wrote:
> >
> > It wouldn't need to. You're relying on the assumption that the state of
> > the random number generator hasn't been stored in the savefile, shrouded
> > in checksums and encryption. If SMAC saves (and restores) the RNG's
> > state on each save (and load), exactly the same thing will
> > happen each time... reloading will be pointless. There *are* ways around
> > this, as well, but they're a lot more complicated than just
> > reload/fight/reload/fight... and there are some fairly straightforward
> > techniques to make it even harder (or more laborious, at least).
> >
>
> talked about how that was implemented in some old Microprose games like
> colonization.
> What i was indeed upon is that such a "predrawn numbers" scheme cannot
> be sufficient.
>
> The problem is that by simply changing the order in which you do things,
> you change toward which end the predrawn random numbers will be used.
Technically, yes. But the only random numbers that really matter are the
pod results, which can be set a generation time, and combat numbers. Now
if each unit is given a stack of, say 10, random numbers you can't
change that. Certainly you could change the order of combat to get
marginally more favourable results, no you couldn't just keep reloading
to ensure a good end result. Do other stuff like trying to walk over
fungus to remove a number from a global RN stack would have no effect on
this system.
> Even if all all the actions made during your turn were ordered following
> a static algorithm and the result computed at end of turn, it would
> still be abusable as players can add or remove actions to shift *some*
> of the results. ( you will still get some bad results but you will
> mostly get them where you think you can afford them)
Iff there's a global RN stack. But as I said, that's not compulsory, or
necessary. So long as the large-effect actions are either
pre-determined, or given a stack of their own numbers and topped up as
needed, you can't do this.
> Ofc, making a very complex and very well thought scheme to avoid such
> save/reload cheats might make it more troublesome for the player but i
> don't see how it could make it impossible.
Well, you only need it to reach a certain level of troublesomeness. If
you can triple the number of reloads needed for a 'desirable' result but
futzing with the RNG, and increase the time between reloads (actually,
that one's trivial... just put a 3 second delay after each load. It's no
problem if it's a one off, but a real pain if you're trying to
reload-cheat) You can push the time the player needs to waste getting
such a result right up, to the point where only the psycho cheaters
would even bother.
--
Caton Little
Caton
> >
> >It wouldn't need to. You're relying on the assumption that the state of
> >the random number generator hasn't been stored in the savefile, shrouded
> >in checksums and encryption. If SMAC saves (and restores) the RNG's
> >state on each save (and load), exactly the same thing will
> >happen each time... reloading will be pointless. There *are* ways around
> >this, as well, but they're a lot more complicated than just
> >reload/fight/reload/fight... and there are some fairly straightforward
> >techniques to make it even harder (or more laborious, at least).
>
> reloading and attacking again, I reload, and back off.
So? That's what you should do anyway, if the odds are against you...
that's just sensible. What you've got to stop are the guys who attack an
elite chaos speeder with a scout and win, events that are highly
improbable, but favourable to the cheater.
PS: Can we get an exact run-down on how the combat-engine works?. It'd
be nice to get a chart (contour plot, of course) of attack vs. defence
vs. chnace of victory.
--
Caton Little
Nachtergal Philippe
I would say there is still one big major problem with save/reload :
Illicit information !
That's the big deal Exemple : Send your probe to infiltrate the city,
see what you learned ( you don't care about losing the probe), then move
your troops around (especially flying ones) to reveal ennemi positions
and once you have learned what you want, reload.
But then, some people will probably not call that cheating. ( i use it
against computer players when necessary)
As for the pods, having them predrawn is a good thing (just make sure
those very close to starting positions are safe) but as always, simply
choosing not to enter it right now can change a lot. (like come back
with a tame mindworm when you have your planet setting at +3 ...) (for
those who hadn't realised that, wild mindworm won't attack your tame
ones though isles of the deep might attack yours)
Ph.
Nachtergal Philippe
>
> Iff there's a global RN stack. But as I said, that's not compulsory, or
> necessary. So long as the large-effect actions are either
> pre-determined, or given a stack of their own numbers and topped up as
> needed, you can't do this.
>
Btw : you don't need any explicit stack, pseudo-random seeds (directly
available in C) are sufficient.
Ph.
Caton
>
> I would say there is still one big major problem with save/reload :
> Illicit information !
>
> That's the big deal Exemple : Send your probe to infiltrate the city,
> see what you learned ( you don't care about losing the probe), then move
> your troops around (especially flying ones) to reveal ennemi positions
> and once you have learned what you want, reload.
>
> But then, some people will probably not call that cheating. ( i use it
> against computer players when necessary)
Now *that's* a good point :)
> As for the pods, having them predrawn is a good thing (just make sure
> those very close to starting positions are safe) but as always, simply
> choosing not to enter it right now can change a lot. (like come back
> with a tame mindworm when you have your planet setting at +3 ...) (for
> those who hadn't realised that, wild mindworm won't attack your tame
> ones though isles of the deep might attack yours)
Right again.
But both of these are little-league cheats that aren't nearly as
annoying (i.e. game-wrecking) as the immortal scout or the city of a
thousand artifacts. Your average dumbass cheater isn't really interested
in the subtle pseudo-cheats you mentioned...
are they? Can any dumbass cheaters comment on this? :)
--
Caton Little
Victor M
cheat-proof as a MP game can get.
Brian Reynolds wrote:
> >There's always this small possibility for cheating: if you yourself
> >have clicked "agree" you can try to snap one or more items off your
> >list right before your opponent clicks "agree" himself. But you'll get
> >exposed soon enough :) No need to change an otherwise perfect system
> >because of that.
>
> Well, maybe, but note that if you snap items off your list it turns
> off your "agree" as well, so you'll have to "re-agree", which makes
> this kind of timing thing a little more difficult.
>
> Main "screwover" we came across in testing is that often people will
> click "offer all tech", and then click "agree" without waiting for
> opponent to offer anything, thinking opponent will "offer all tech"
> too and then agree. But opponent can just click "agree" and take all
> your tech for nothing.
>