hive still has inefficiency after version 2.0

[Mike]

I read in the patch (2.0), that the hive won't go below 0 in efficiency now.
I started up a game, did social engineering, picked police state (-2
efficiency), and it DID give me -2.

What's the deal?

--

Mike

Please remove the .NOSPAM from my email address when replying

check out - www.msu.edu/~tansymic

[Choy Pui Yin, Irwin]

Maybe he doesn't SUFFER the consequence of the penalty? That doesn't mean the
penalty don't show up on the social engineering screen.

[Brian Reynolds]

Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
update.

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games

[Mike]

ok, thanks!

--

Mike

Please remove the .NOSPAM from my email address when replying

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Brian Reynolds wrote in message <36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...

[SnowFire]

Brian Reynolds <brey...@firaxis.com> wrote in article

<36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...
> Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
> actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
> update.
>
> Brian Reynolds
> Alpha Centauri Designer
> FIRAXIS Games

Er.. actually, can you keep it in there? That way, if I decide later in
the game that I want a positive efficiency, I need to know how far in the
hole I am. Now, I could easily add it up myself, but just for convince...

Maybe if you just put an asterisk next to negative efficiency, or a
different color? And then kept the description still on a 0 efficiency
(high inefficiency)?

--
-SnowFire
Webmaster of The Mindworm, Chiron's First Strategy & Tactics Magazine
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dome/7217/smac/

[jn...@my-dejanews.com]

In article <01be588e$c75e5100$3fdd...@worldnet.att.net>,

"SnowFire" <snowball...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Brian Reynolds <brey...@firaxis.com> wrote in article
> <36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...
> > Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
> > actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
> > update.
> >
> > Brian Reynolds
> > Alpha Centauri Designer
> > FIRAXIS Games
>
> Er.. actually, can you keep it in there? That way, if I decide later in
> the game that I want a positive efficiency, I need to know how far in the
> hole I am. Now, I could easily add it up myself, but just for convince...
>
> Maybe if you just put an asterisk next to negative efficiency, or a
> different color? And then kept the description still on a 0 efficiency
> (high inefficiency)?
>

Also, I'm curious about Efficancy and Planet: Right now I'm playing the
PeaceKeepers, and have choosen Democracy-Green-Knowledge, giving me +4
efficancy and +2 planet among other things. Suppose after getting the
aproaiate tech I pick the Paradise future socity, which among other things
gives a +2 efficancy. Given I'm already at +4, would there be any effect to
go to +6? Or suppose I get the tech for Robots to do all the work, which
among other things gives a +2 planet. Staying Green this would boost Planet
to +4. Or there any advantages at +4 planet compared to +3, like say 100%
chance of capturing mind worms or improvements never cause enviormential
damage? Jon Nunn Friends Don't Let Friends Do Cobol

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

[Mike]

Now I'm VERY confused. I started this thread saying, after the patch, the
Soc Eng screen, showed inefficiency, and BR said that there wouldn't be any
in the actual game. I play the hive again yesterday, with one of the
"efficiency penalty" choices, and my efficiency report 0 (when is should
be - 2). I then checked my cities, and there WAS efficiency (lost energy,
especially the futher away from the capital). Is this normal with no
inefficiency ? Also, when I changed the lab + energy ratio, ineffeciency
showed up.

Could some one explain? Do you mean the hive has the efficiency setting of
+0 (so efficiency has no modifier, but inefficency is still present), no
matter what you do?

confused, again, LOL,

--

Mike

Please remove the .NOSPAM from my email address when replying

check out - www.msu.edu/~tansymic

SnowFire wrote in message <01be588e$c75e5100$3fdd...@worldnet.att.net>...

>Brian Reynolds <brey...@firaxis.com> wrote in article
><36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...
>> Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
>> actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
>> update.
>>
>> Brian Reynolds
>> Alpha Centauri Designer
>> FIRAXIS Games
>
>Er.. actually, can you keep it in there? That way, if I decide later in
>the game that I want a positive efficiency, I need to know how far in the
>hole I am. Now, I could easily add it up myself, but just for convince...
>
>Maybe if you just put an asterisk next to negative efficiency, or a
>different color? And then kept the description still on a 0 efficiency
>(high inefficiency)?
>

[Choy Pui Yin, Irwin]

I believe an Efficiency rating of 0 has the normal "bureaucratic" efficiency.

I don't get the idea from the patch info that the Hive cannot get a positive
effciency rating ... I think they can still have positive efficiency if they so
choose.

Irwin

[SnowFire]

Mike <tans...@pilot.msu.edu.NOSPAM> wrote in article
<xIUx2.396$0A4....@news.rdc1.mi.home.com>...

> Now I'm VERY confused. I started this thread saying, after the patch, the
> Soc Eng screen, showed inefficiency, and BR said that there wouldn't be
any
> in the actual game. I play the hive again yesterday, with one of the
> "efficiency penalty" choices, and my efficiency report 0 (when is should
> be - 2). I then checked my cities, and there WAS efficiency (lost energy,
> especially the futher away from the capital). Is this normal with no
> inefficiency ? Also, when I changed the lab + energy ratio, ineffeciency
> showed up.
>
> Could some one explain? Do you mean the hive has the efficiency setting
of
> +0 (so efficiency has no modifier, but inefficency is still present), no
> matter what you do?
>
> confused, again, LOL,

Yeah, 0 efficiency if you look at the explanations, is still "high
inefficiency." So there'll be plenty of energy lost to inefficiency, and
if you fiddle the tax/science too much you'll have serious efficiency loss
too. Besides, what would the point be of having a high efficiency rating
if you already had no energy lost at 0 efficiency?

By the way, you can fiddle with tax/science rates all you want if you have
an efficiency>4.

[Brian Reynolds]

Correct, there is -some- inefficiency at every level (even +1, +2,
etc), but Yang is not further penalized for values below 0.

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer

FIRAXIS games

[Brian Reynolds]

Good point!

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer

FIRAXIS Games

On 15 Feb 1999 02:57:35 GMT, "SnowFire"
<snowball...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Brian Reynolds <brey...@firaxis.com> wrote in article
><36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...
>> Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
>> actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
>> update.
>>

>> Brian Reynolds
>> Alpha Centauri Designer

[Caton]

Mike wrote:
>
> Now I'm VERY confused. I started this thread saying, after the patch, the
> Soc Eng screen, showed inefficiency, and BR said that there wouldn't be any
> in the actual game. I play the hive again yesterday, with one of the
> "efficiency penalty" choices, and my efficiency report 0 (when is should
> be - 2). I then checked my cities, and there WAS efficiency (lost energy,
> especially the futher away from the capital). Is this normal with no
> inefficiency ? Also, when I changed the lab + energy ratio, ineffeciency
> showed up.
>
> Could some one explain? Do you mean the hive has the efficiency setting of
> +0 (so efficiency has no modifier, but inefficency is still present), no
> matter what you do?

OK, here's the deal:

An efficiency less than zero has the same effect as an efficiency of 0
for the Hive. +0 efficiency *doesn't* mean no inefficiency... the
proportion of energy lost is:

dist/(64-((4-eff)*8)

Where dist is the distance of the city from the captial, and eff is your
*real* efficiency rating. Three things worth noting:

For a constant efficiency, the dropoff per unit distance is constant.
Zero eff means a 100% enery loss at a distance of 32 squares (and on a
huge map, that's 1/2 of the maximum[1]... so a large empire is fscked
even at zero eff) Even an efficiency of +4 will give you 100% loss at 64
units.

This formula *works* at greater than 4. An efficiency of 6 means 100%
loss at 80 units, so it's worth going for if you've got a large,
sprawling empire. Particularly if you've got rich border cities.

This formula *breaks* at less than -4. If you can get your efficiency
below -4, you get a net *gain* per unit distance from the capital.
There's obviously a fudge in the game to stop divide by zero errors at
-4, so they've almost certainly put in a fudge to stop this effect from
kicking in, as well. :(

[1] For the mathematically challenged, IIRC the huge map is 128 units
wide, therefore the furthest you can be from home is 64 units (on a
toroid map, of course. On a flat map, it'd be 128)

--
Caton Little

[Brian Singerman]

Hi there,
Could some kind soul please tell me why this major plus for the hive
was added? I was pleasantly surprised by the addition, but I dont
know why it was added? Can someone enlighten me onthat?
Thanks,
Brian

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:12:42 GMT, jn...@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <01be588e$c75e5100$3fdd...@worldnet.att.net>,

> "SnowFire" <snowball...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> Brian Reynolds <brey...@firaxis.com> wrote in article
>> <36d24fbf....@news.clark.net>...
>> > Oh, sorry, the SocEng screen still -shows- the -2, but there is no
>> > actual effect below 0. I'll try to correct the display for the next
>> > update.
>> >
>> > Brian Reynolds
>> > Alpha Centauri Designer
>> > FIRAXIS Games
>>
>> Er.. actually, can you keep it in there? That way, if I decide later in
>> the game that I want a positive efficiency, I need to know how far in the
>> hole I am. Now, I could easily add it up myself, but just for convince...
>>
>> Maybe if you just put an asterisk next to negative efficiency, or a
>> different color? And then kept the description still on a 0 efficiency
>> (high inefficiency)?
>>
>

[Andrew R. Gillett]

In alt.games.firaxis.alpha-centauri, Brian Singerman wrote:
> Hi there,
> Could some kind soul please tell me why this major plus for the hive
> was added? I was pleasantly surprised by the addition, but I dont
> know why it was added? Can someone enlighten me onthat?

I always thought the Hive's -1 ECON was totally crippling - and their
police state ideology makes their income and research even worse.

--
Andrew Gillett http://argnet.fatal-design.com/ ICQ: See homepage
"I am not a hobby horse, oh no. I am a hobby lion, which is the king of the
hobby kingdom and much better than a horse which is rubbish." - Simon Quinlank

[Eccles]

While playing the hive it's almost impossible to play the hives
'natural' game of Police State/Planned due to the massive efficiency
hit. Maybe that's why they changed it.

Eccles.

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:27:18 GMT, bria...@cs.stanford.edu (Brian
Singerman) wrote:

>Hi there,
>Could some kind soul please tell me why this major plus for the hive
>was added? I was pleasantly surprised by the addition, but I dont
>know why it was added? Can someone enlighten me onthat?

--
ecc...@zip.com.au | There are three kinds
http://www.zip.com.au/~eccles | of people in the world
ICQ: 1906229 | those who can count
I'm a teapot | and those who can't